00:02:15 gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 00:03:14 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:03:54 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 00:10:27 zeugma [~user@c-75-72-162-255.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:11:53 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.134.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:14:02 DataLinkDKT [~DataLinkD@58.171.81.53] has joined #lisp 00:15:22 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-102-215.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:48 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.255.73.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:19:49 topeak [~topeak@61.149.231.124] has joined #lisp 00:21:32 -!- DataLinkDKT [~DataLinkD@58.171.81.53] has quit [Quit: Bye] 00:23:47 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A3FB7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:25:00 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-102-215.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:25:07 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has left #lisp 00:25:15 Bike1 [~Glossina@71-214-102-215.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:26:24 -!- hikoki [~topo@f053044145.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:31:53 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.255.73.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 00:33:14 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:36:02 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Quit: bye] 00:37:56 -!- adam33147 [~user@ool-44c0fe65.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:40:58 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.135.89] has quit [Quit: rme] 00:45:14 rme [~rme@50.43.135.89] has joined #lisp 00:46:12 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440063.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:46:39 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:48:32 sellout-1 [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:48:58 -!- tali713 [~user@c-75-72-221-163.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:49:50 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:50:31 tali713 [~user@c-75-72-221-163.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:37 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 00:52:53 ISF [~ivan@201.82.134.98] has joined #lisp 00:53:08 -!- j_king [~jking@mortar.walled.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:53:40 -!- Fade [~fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:54:44 am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.83] has joined #lisp 00:57:10 LiamH [~healy@pool-108-18-161-45.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:57:13 nicdev [~nicdev@c-98-217-188-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:58:34 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-122-110.wbs.co.za] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:59:13 topo [~topo@f053044145.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 00:59:23 -!- mjs2600 [~user@user-0c999k2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:59:50 is there something that works the opposite than c-c c-c ? 01:00:01 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.14.46] has joined #lisp 01:00:33 j_king [~jking@mortar.walled.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:44 Fade [~fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 01:01:05 topo: No. 01:01:08 topo: The opposite of compiling? 01:01:11 -!- Bike1 is now known as Bike 01:01:32 topo: Depending on the evaluated form, there may be ways of undefining what the form created, such as fmakunbound. 01:04:24 topo: there's cl:disassemble 01:05:32 Excuse me 01:05:45 how can i save .txt files with sbcl? 01:06:04 It's the same as with all CL implementations. 01:06:04 i created a code that creates random words, and i want to save it on a .txt file 01:06:34 is there any tutorial about this? 01:06:40 or manual? 01:06:40 (with-open-file (stream "file.txt" :direction :output :if-does-not-exist :create :if-exists :supersede) (write-words stream)) 01:06:54 topo: yes, there are a ton of tutorials and books about it. 01:07:08 topo: you can refer to PCL: http://gigamonkeys.com/book 01:07:27 ok 01:07:29 ;) 01:07:39 topo: have a look at http://cliki.net/Lisp+Books and http://cliki.net/Online+Tutorial 01:07:42 and the hyperspec would qualify as a manual, I think; it's worthwhile to set up a local copy 01:10:34 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:34 -!- zeugma [~user@c-75-72-162-255.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:15:23 h4r1 [~dbs@c-68-43-177-182.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:27 Hello 01:15:45 I have a var named func with value + in it 01:16:23 How can I use the operator pointed to by the func to perform some operation? 01:17:47 h4r1: funcall or apply. 01:18:22 I want to pass the function as an argument to another function 01:18:36 funcall or apply directly call the function 01:19:52 just pass it. 01:21:02 Internal function checks if the passed in argument is a function by using functionp predicate 01:21:05 h4r1: + is not a function, it's a symbol that can serve as function designator. Happily, funcall and apply (and most high order functions) take function designators. 01:21:20 (functionp '+) --> nil 01:21:56 (functionp #'+) returns T 01:22:17 h4r1: I don't know what internal function you're referring to, but it's bad CL style. 01:22:18 if your + is a string, you might need to first import it as a symbol; if it's a symbol it's also possible to use functonp, fboundp, symbol-function 01:22:31 Perhaps but you said your variable func was bound to the symbol +, not to the function +. 01:22:38 s/functonp/functionp/ 01:22:47 Notice the difference between + and # 01:23:10 phadthai: + is a symbol. "+" is a string. Notice the difference. 01:23:12 pkhuong, its a function I wrote that makes sure that the argument is a function 01:23:19 h4r1: your problem then. 01:23:25 h4r1: then it's not +, it's #. 01:23:48 -!- am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.83] has quit [Quit:   .] 01:23:58 pjb: nothing indicated in his question that it could not have been a string, as he could well have omitted the pedantic quotes in his new-user question 01:24:05 pjb, how can I get # from + stored in a variable 01:24:06 am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.83] has joined #lisp 01:24:09 and it could have been 01:24:21 phadthai: try: (print '+) and compare with (print '"+") 01:24:31 I know the difference, thanks :) 01:24:44 h4r1: (setf func (function +)) or (setf func (symbol-funtion '+)) 01:25:19 h4r1: notice that if + is not cl:+ then the two expression can give different results, depending on the lexical scope they're in. 01:25:50 what is cl:+? 01:26:11 cl:+ is the symbol named "+" that is found in the package named "CL". 01:26:24 ok 01:26:41 What is used by default? Is it + or cl:+? 01:26:56 I am using Allegro CL, btw 01:27:11 h4r1: 11.1.2.1.2 says that you cannot lexically fbind local functions named by symbols from the CL package that are fbound. 01:27:44 h4r1: for other symbols, (defun f () :global) (flet ((f () :local)) (list (symbol-function 'f) (function f))) gives a list with two different functions. 01:27:55 h4r1: this is irrelevant to the implementation. 01:28:01 ok 01:28:32 h4r1: and that's why checking for function-ness is counter-productive. 01:28:44 h4r1: you usually write +, but the symbol which is read depends on the current package, and what package it uses. The CL package is often used, so when you read "+" you often get the symbol cl:+. 01:29:52 pkhuong: I did not understand. can you please explain? 01:30:15 pjb: ok, got it. 01:30:59 -!- rme [rme@45CC2C80.80B03224.699BA7A6.IP] has quit [Quit: rme] 01:30:59 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.135.89] has quit [Quit: rme] 01:31:25 -!- am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.83] has quit [Quit:   .] 01:31:30 h4r1: don't heck for function-ness, just call apply/funcall directly. Suddenly, you can also accept a symbol, like every higher order function in CL. 01:31:34 *check 01:31:45 h4r1: it is often better to expect function designators and to pass function designators, instead of strict functions. 01:31:45 am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.83] has joined #lisp 01:32:13 h4r1: in other places, there are also string designators, pathname designators, etc. 01:32:38 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.135.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:32:59 h4r1: everytime you can pass some object of a different type than the "native" type, to designate the corresponding object of the "native" type, you have a designator, and this makes it easier for the callers. 01:33:18 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.255.73.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:33:48 hmm, I guess I need to contact prof - I don't understand what a higher order function is 01:33:55 h4r1: (find-package "NAME") (find-package :name) (find-package 'name) will find the same package (with the standard readtable-case setting). 01:34:07 h4r1: it's a function that takes a function as parameter or gives one as result. 01:34:16 h4r1: a typical example, is mapcar. 01:34:21 ok 01:34:33 but mapcar is itself a function, right? 01:34:42 it should satisfy the functionp predicate 01:34:45 Yes. That's why it's called higher-order function. 01:35:14 Strictly, mapcar is a function designator, it's a symbol named "MAPCAR" which designates the function # 01:35:31 Try: (function mapcar) at the REPL. 01:36:09 (mapcar 'mapcar '(/ -) '((1 2 3) (4 5 6))) 01:37:25 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:37:33 it printed # 01:37:52 The object that has this printed representation is the function. 01:38:23 If you type 'mapcar, it prints MAPCAR, and the object that has that printed representation is a symbol named "MAPCAR". 01:38:40 Both are designator for the function object. 01:38:48 ok 01:39:21 so there is a separation between symbol and function itself 01:39:27 Yes. 01:39:44 Does that apply to anfy function? non-higher order as well? 01:39:45 Symbols are used to name some functions. 01:39:59 Yes, to any function. 01:40:03 ok 01:40:07 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 01:40:19 Some functions are anonymous. Some have several names. Most have a single name. 01:40:53 (defun f () '(I am F)) (setf (symbol-function 'g) (symbol-function 'f)) (g) --> (I AM F) 01:40:56 So if a var func has value +, then to get the func of +, I need to get the val of var and eval it 01:41:27 h4r1: you'd use the funfctions SYMBOL-FUNCTION or FDEFINITION to get the function fbound to a symbol. 01:41:37 ok 01:41:44 got it now 01:41:51 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 01:42:17 Anonymous funcs are the lambda functions right? 01:42:36 Some functions are named by lists of the form (SETF X). For those, you need to use fdefinition, since symbol-function works only with symbols. 01:42:46 Yes, lambda is used to build anonymous functions. 01:43:25 ok 01:43:55 Now I understood 01:44:06 Thanks for your help! 01:44:21 You're welcome. 01:44:39 I just started learning since a week, so picking up concepts one by one 01:46:22 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.255.73.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 01:47:18 -!- gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:55:23 -!- Fade [~fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:56:03 -!- j_king [~jking@mortar.walled.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:56:30 j_king [~jking@mortar.walled.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:13 MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-185.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:59:33 -!- topo [~topo@f053044145.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:01:08 Fade [~fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 02:05:55 topo [~topo@f053035165.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 02:05:58 altsrid [~altsrid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:07:43 gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.25.198] has joined #lisp 02:08:18 -!- anonchik [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:09:23 -!- pnq [~nick@AC8165CB.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:10:49 I have a loop that terminates based on the second return value of a function and was unable to find an elegant way to write it -- do any of the built in iteration constructs provide for binding multiple values? http://paste.lisp.org/display/124720 02:11:32 Vivitron: I just m-v-bind and return. 02:11:32 (loop while (nth-value 1 (fun)) do (something)) 02:12:27 (loop for (mc mv) = (multiple-value-list (fun)) while mv do (something-with mc)) 02:15:42 thanks for the answers 02:16:33 But yours might faster, since multiple-value-list must cons a list. 02:19:12 thats what I was thinking; I'll probably stick with the loop/return solution 02:19:16 Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483D6D8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:58 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p5483B8CE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:20:01 ihyoyoung [raster@enlightenment2.osuosl.org] has joined #lisp 02:20:58 anonchik [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has joined #lisp 02:21:48 -!- Posterdati [~tapioca@host140-230-dynamic.6-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:23:17 MimiEA [~Mimi@97-88-37-119.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:26:29 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-135-221.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:21 -!- wormwood [~wormwood@pdpc/supporter/student/wormwood] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:33:18 -!- gonzojive [~gonzojive@178-83-238-199.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 02:33:19 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:33:42 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 02:36:38 SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@233.sub-75-202-162.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 02:43:20 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 02:45:48 BrokenCog [~daniel@ip98-162-173-207.pn.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:51:05 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:59:03 -!- h4r1 [~dbs@c-68-43-177-182.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: h4r1] 03:03:08 Springheeled-J [~Spring-he@34.sub-69-96-14.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 03:03:14 -!- SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@233.sub-75-202-162.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:21:47 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-nqfqjdercfjyqnsx] has joined #lisp 03:27:48 -!- Springheeled-J is now known as SpringheeledJake 03:29:58 -!- tali713 [~user@c-75-72-221-163.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:34:59 Springheeled-J [~Spring-he@177.sub-75-204-52.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 03:35:08 -!- SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@34.sub-69-96-14.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:35:15 -!- Springheeled-J is now known as SpringheeledJake 03:35:37 daniel___ [~daniel@p5B326301.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:37:02 -!- daniel__ [~daniel@p5082A517.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:40:10 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 03:40:26 Springheeled-J [~Spring-he@32.sub-69-96-5.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 03:40:56 -!- SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@177.sub-75-204-52.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:43:52 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:47:15 -!- BrokenCog [~daniel@ip98-162-173-207.pn.at.cox.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:50:00 SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@233.sub-75-202-162.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 03:50:23 -!- Springheeled-J [~Spring-he@32.sub-69-96-5.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:51:36 noname [~textual@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:52:02 -!- noname is now known as Guest31209 03:56:02 -!- Vivitron [~user@pool-108-7-56-243.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:59:26 Springheeled-J [~Spring-he@33.sub-75-251-181.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 03:59:47 -!- SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@233.sub-75-202-162.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:01:46 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 04:02:51 tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:02:51 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 04:04:23 -!- Springheeled-J [~Spring-he@33.sub-75-251-181.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:05:15 Springheeled-J [~Spring-he@74.sub-75-203-189.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 04:11:47 -!- Springheeled-J is now known as SpringheeledJake 04:12:10 claint [~user@88.242.2.117] has joined #lisp 04:18:33 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 04:19:40 -!- nicdev [~nicdev@c-98-217-188-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: nicdev] 04:20:21 stassats [~AndChat@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 04:22:35 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.25.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:23:13 -!- stassats [~AndChat@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Client Quit] 04:23:31 stassats [~AndChat@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 04:24:17 -!- stassats [~AndChat@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Client Quit] 04:29:03 pnq [~nick@AC8207D1.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 04:29:08 -!- altsrid [~altsrid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 04:29:56 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-108-18-161-45.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:30:04 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:30:33 -!- ericklc [~ikki@189.247.105.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:31:40 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:32:23 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.255.73.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:35:44 gaidal [~gaidal@58.61.214.41] has joined #lisp 04:37:30 nicdev [~nicdev@c-98-217-188-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:44 -!- MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-185.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:38:03 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-18-2-150.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:38:12 wormwood [~wormwood@pdpc/supporter/student/wormwood] has joined #lisp 04:40:24 -!- techquila [~sodoscar@60-234-221-12.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:40:43 techquila [~sodoscar@60-234-221-12.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 04:41:52 -!- MimiEA [~Mimi@97-88-37-119.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:43:32 -!- pnq [~nick@AC8207D1.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:43:49 -!- SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@74.sub-75-203-189.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:43:50 Springheeled-J [~Spring-he@83.sub-75-225-255.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 04:45:12 pnq [~nick@AC8207D1.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 04:47:43 -!- Springheeled-J is now known as SpringheeledJake 04:48:27 -!- Guest31209 is now known as na[k] 04:49:10 -!- SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@83.sub-75-225-255.myvzw.com] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 04:49:16 SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@83.sub-75-225-255.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 04:51:10 -!- SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@83.sub-75-225-255.myvzw.com] has quit [Client Quit] 04:51:15 SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@83.sub-75-225-255.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 04:55:43 -!- housel [~user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:56:21 -!- pcavs [~Adium@c-65-96-169-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:56:24 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.136.178] has joined #lisp 04:56:45 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@58.61.214.41] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:57:26 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.255.73.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 04:57:52 tech-quila [~sodoscar@60-234-221-12.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 04:58:30 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 04:58:56 gaidal [~gaidal@58.61.214.41] has joined #lisp 04:59:29 -!- techquila [~sodoscar@60-234-221-12.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:59:55 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:01:26 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.255.73.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:06:06 -!- tech-quila [~sodoscar@60-234-221-12.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:06:26 techquila [~sodoscar@60-234-221-12.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 05:10:15 -!- SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@83.sub-75-225-255.myvzw.com] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 05:10:51 SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@83.sub-75-225-255.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 05:15:54 i8igmac [~bigmac@c-67-185-190-112.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:16:27 any one work with sockets 05:16:35 cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.84] has joined #lisp 05:16:35 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.84] has quit [Changing host] 05:16:35 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 05:17:07 im looking to show packets binary data instead of periods 05:17:25 tcpflow says it can do this but its not working for me 05:20:23 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:20:36 -!- anonchik [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:23:08 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 05:23:43 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.134.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:27:08 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:28:53 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:29:45 -!- pnq [~nick@AC8207D1.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:29:54 stassats [~stassats@pppoe.95-55-189-142.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 05:29:59 -!- stassats [~stassats@pppoe.95-55-189-142.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Changing host] 05:29:59 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 05:31:20 -!- i8igmac [~bigmac@c-67-185-190-112.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:32:17 pnq [~nick@AC8207D1.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 05:33:20 Springheeled-J [~Spring-he@227.sub-75-253-75.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 05:33:24 -!- SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@83.sub-75-225-255.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:34:28 -!- Springheeled-J is now known as SpringheeledJake 05:37:38 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:42:58 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:44:44 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 05:45:47 -!- am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.83] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:50:40 nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p4FE31908.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:51:03 -!- SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@227.sub-75-253-75.myvzw.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:54:03 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.110.176] has joined #lisp 05:58:36 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 06:01:59 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-102-215.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:05:49 Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:09:18 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:11:02 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:11:44 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:14:02 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:18:36 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@68-188-56-8.static.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 06:20:00 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 06:21:28 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 06:23:49 -!- ^ThE_UniX_GuY^ is now known as Deesl 06:23:50 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@ggn.ixigo.net] has quit [Changing host] 06:23:50 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 06:24:23 manuel__ [~manuel@pD9FDD35D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:25:11 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 06:28:50 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has joined #lisp 06:28:53 -!- nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p4FE31908.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:36:27 waaaaaargh_ [~waaaaargh@agsb-4d04870a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 06:37:48 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-83-4.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:39:13 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has joined #lisp 06:40:12 -!- waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-4d049102.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:40:49 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:41:17 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:45:40 tsanhwa [~user@2001:da8:8001:240:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has joined #lisp 06:50:14 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-15-207.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:51:15 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-gqzlkafwitrohwaz] has joined #lisp 06:51:15 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-gqzlkafwitrohwaz] has quit [Changing host] 06:51:15 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 06:53:07 good morning 06:53:53 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 06:54:01 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:54:11 kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-xvorbtniqhrbujax] has joined #lisp 06:54:11 -!- kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-xvorbtniqhrbujax] has quit [Changing host] 06:54:11 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 06:54:25 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 07:01:36 -!- pnq [~nick@AC8207D1.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:01:40 hello people. some time before, i asked here about learning a lisp dialect, and you sent me to #clojure :) i tried CL, clojure and scheme, and.. clojure sucks. not the language, but the environment - barely usable error messages, lacking compile-time checking, lacking debugging facilities. 07:01:54 so, back to cl :) 07:02:18 I didn't send you there. 07:04:37 i don't want to quibble about who, but I was recommended clojure. 07:06:01 anyway, i just thought i'd describe my (short) experience with trying it, nothing more. 07:06:36 So, what was the problem with scheme? 07:09:09 i tried MIT scheme both with its "native" editor and within emacs + its plugin. the problem was partly subjective (a bit too verbose), partly that slime+cl is much more comortable to work with. 07:09:32 somebody recommended geiser for scheme, so i'd have to try that too 07:09:37 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 07:10:42 so, up til now, i found that slime+sbcl is the most comfortable environment. 07:16:51 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:20:00 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:22:52 araujo [~araujo@190.73.44.29] has joined #lisp 07:22:52 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.73.44.29] has quit [Changing host] 07:22:52 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 07:23:45 -!- fantazo_ [~fantazo@178-191-170-3.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:23:52 peterhil [~peterhil@gw.maxisat.fi] has joined #lisp 07:27:35 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 07:27:46 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 07:29:29 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-cehoqhyuvugvkrxx] has joined #lisp 07:29:49 -!- manuel__ [~manuel@pD9FDD35D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: manuel__] 07:30:48 -!- Amyn [~abennama@cac94-2-87-91-21-215.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:31:18 z1l0g [jgw@miku.sdf.org] has joined #lisp 07:31:56 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-154-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:32:28 renesis [~redmundia@84.122.73.141.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 07:33:46 hello 07:33:47 -!- z1l0g [jgw@miku.sdf.org] has left #lisp 07:34:20 can you recommend me a CL interpreter? just starting out 07:34:37 sbcl is very supported by open source projects 07:35:25 renesis: refer to it as an implementation, and sbcl will likely become one of your best friends :) 07:35:26 thanks I'll check it out 07:35:37 Posterdati [~tapioca@host212-220-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 07:36:20 -!- dRbiG [p@static-78-8-120-130.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:36:53 renesis: and you will likely want to check out SLIME for Emacs 07:36:57 renesis sbcl compiles to machine code btw 07:37:35 daniel__ [~daniel@p5B326301.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:37:45 will do, im already using emacs 07:37:59 -!- daniel___ [~daniel@p5B326301.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:39:00 compiles to machine code, meaning there's edit/compile/run cycle like with say C? 07:39:30 kpal [eart0186@raven.linux.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 07:42:00 anyone used hunchentoot's folder dispatcher? 07:43:58 renesis: except that CL is also designed for interactive use, and SBCL consequently has a fast compiler it'll use even interactively 07:44:04 it's 404ing everything in the directory, including the directory itself 07:44:24 setheus [~setheus@cpe-76-183-61-224.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:44:25 renesis: with SLIME supporting things like (re)compiling a code block or function in the current image, etc 07:44:27 which is weir dbecause I have the default handler enabled so nothing that's *not* under that directory 404s, no matter how invalid a url 07:44:31 rensis: Incremental compilation. 07:44:33 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 07:45:40 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:46:54 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-46-200.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:46:54 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-46-200.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Changing host] 07:46:54 insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 07:47:35 Zhivago, phadthai I see, interesting! 07:47:54 i had the impression that common lisp was interpreted like elisp 07:48:47 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-154-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:48:47 It can be interpreted. 07:48:52 That is an implementation issue. 07:48:57 some implementations can be, and some support both compiled and interpreted mode 07:48:58 Just like C can be interpreted. 07:50:12 nvm, got it 07:50:21 created my test data in the wrong dir >.< 07:50:41 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has joined #lisp 07:50:45 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:51:18 renesis: most popular implementations do both, and have internal logic to decide which to do when if you do not expressly invoke the compiler 07:52:40 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-154-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:53:45 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 07:54:11 -!- pjb is now known as Guest96407 07:54:34 -!- Guest96407 is now known as pjb 07:56:18 killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 08:02:56 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.136.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:03:26 hi 08:03:53 I have a sound server that receives osc messages in this way: 08:03:59 n = s.nextNodeID; 08:04:05 s.sendMsg("/s_new", "default", n); 08:04:17 marsell [~marsell@120.22.140.114] has joined #lisp 08:04:27 I was wondering how can i replicate those commands from common lisp using the osc library? 08:07:44 cpape [~user@cpape.eu] has joined #lisp 08:08:00 yakov [~yakov@ip-83-149-3-145.nwgsm.ru] has joined #lisp 08:11:48 topo: using CFFI. 08:12:00 how? 08:12:11 i have installed the osc library 08:12:13 google for cffi manual, read the doc, program. 08:13:02 I used (ql:quickload "osc") 08:13:11 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.133.232] has joined #lisp 08:13:51 Well, if there's already a lisp osc library, why are you writing C code above? 08:14:36 thats not c code 08:14:48 i have a sound server 08:14:52 supercollider 08:14:55 programinng language 08:15:03 the sound server receives osc commands 08:15:15 from the supercollider programming language 08:15:17 in that way 08:15:22 s.sendMsg("/s_new", "default", n); 08:15:37 This is not lisp code! Stop it! 08:15:47 but instead of sending the osc commands from the supercollider language i want to sent them from common lisp 08:15:51 do you understand? 08:16:16 i know that thats now lisp code, what i want is to convert that to lisp code 08:16:39 *i know that thats not lisp code 08:16:47 Why don'tyou write lisp code then? 08:17:14 thats what im asking here 08:17:19 how can i convert this to lisp? 08:17:19 s.sendMsg("/s_new", "default", n); 08:17:20 (send-msg s "/s_new" "default" n); 08:17:22 topo: (send-message s "/s_new" "default" n)  08:17:26 :O 08:17:45 You just write lisp forms. 08:17:46 and thi? 08:17:46 n = s.nextNodeID; 08:17:53 and this? 08:17:53 n = s.nextNodeID; 08:17:58 (setf n (next-node-id s)) 08:18:04 ok thanks im gonna try 08:18:17 Of course, it all depends on the osc lisp library... 08:19:12 i get this: 08:19:12 debugger invoked on a UNBOUND-VARIABLE: The variable S is unbound. 08:23:00 Stop being an idiot. Engage your brains, and start programming! 08:24:04 c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-qdfqeypoxyyjmtva] has joined #lisp 08:24:07 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-76-183-61-224.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:25:53 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 08:27:07 e-user [e-user@nat/nokia/x-ltqjotyqqocycjgw] has joined #lisp 08:27:27 -!- yakov [~yakov@ip-83-149-3-145.nwgsm.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:30:18 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:30:31 yakov [~yakov@ip-83-149-2-43.nwgsm.ru] has joined #lisp 08:35:35 -!- yakov [~yakov@ip-83-149-2-43.nwgsm.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:36:40 pdo [~pdo@217.33.254.141] has joined #lisp 08:37:03 setheus [~setheus@cpe-76-183-61-224.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:37:41 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:41:22 the thing is that when i do: M-x sclang-server-boot 08:41:42 it creates automatically an "s" variable in the server that contains the server 08:41:55 so i can do this. 08:41:55 n = s.nextNodeID; 08:42:16 but when i try to do this: 08:42:17 (setf n (next-node-id s)) 08:42:26 it doesnt recognize the varible s as the server 08:42:32 :( 08:43:02 can you tell me 08:43:08 why is Lisp a good option for A.I? 08:43:39 because Lisp is a good general purpose programming language 08:43:39 Because it was invented by the inventor of AI for this purpose. 08:44:00 lisp is not a good option for ai 08:44:34 pjb: but why 08:45:06 topo: from my reading,it looks like to be 08:45:13 Because AI (notably conciousness) involves self introspection, and being homoiconic, lisp allows for easy self introspection. 08:45:30 depending of what type of ai 08:45:36 there are different approaches 08:47:12 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:47:14 yakov [~yakov@ip-83-149-3-156.nwgsm.ru] has joined #lisp 08:47:42 ZabaQ [~john.conn@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 08:48:17 topo: you should read the documentation or the source of the lisp osc library. 08:48:42 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 08:48:51 im doing that 08:49:02 good. 08:49:21 -!- tsanhwa [~user@2001:da8:8001:240:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 08:49:25 tsanhwa [~user@2001:da8:8001:240:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has joined #lisp 08:49:50 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:49:59 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 08:50:00 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 08:55:09 manuel__ [~manuel_@pD9FDD35D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:58:15 -!- replore_ [~replore@ntkngw133234.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:58:36 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:58:59 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 08:59:14 -!- nicdev [~nicdev@c-98-217-188-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: nicdev] 09:03:38 gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 09:03:59 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:06:31 am0c [~am0c@110.8.127.73] has joined #lisp 09:06:46 oudeis [~oudeis@109.67.215.238] has joined #lisp 09:08:37 replore_ [~replore@ntkngw133234.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:10:29 -!- techquila [~sodoscar@60-234-221-12.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:16:13 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:17:27 -!- am0c [~am0c@110.8.127.73] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:18:07 am0c [~am0c@110.8.127.73] has joined #lisp 09:18:18 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 09:18:30 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:18:35 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Client Quit] 09:19:51 kushal [~kdas@115.241.217.89] has joined #lisp 09:19:59 -!- kushal [~kdas@115.241.217.89] has quit [Changing host] 09:19:59 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 09:23:32 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:26:45 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:27:01 silenius [~silenius@p4FFC8366.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:28:28 There is no false in lisp? 09:29:39 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 09:30:16 It's nil. 09:32:17 Amyn [~abennama@64.208.49.20] has joined #lisp 09:32:18 the only true false value! 09:33:07 most people agree it's a false true value 09:33:57 well, to me it's just an empty list of alternatives ;) 09:34:39 spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has joined #lisp 09:36:28 dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has joined #lisp 09:37:45 -!- katesmith is now known as katesmith-gonert 09:39:57 yeah, I found NIL already. But false is kinda more explicit 09:40:18 Tasser: (defconstant false nil) 09:40:54 pjb, a false type that is different from nil. 09:41:25 No.ooo 09:41:53 Notice the difference: (defconstant false nil) vs. (deftype false () (member nil)) 09:42:18 try (type-of false) 09:42:34 pjb, I'm sure people did a bunch of thinking on that problem - it's just unusual 09:43:12 Pfft! 09:43:27 ehu [~ehuels@109.33.18.252] has joined #lisp 09:43:47 :-P 09:43:53 _danb_ [~user@124-149-186-129.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:44:03 Tasser: that's why people should learn programming languages (or languages in general) on their own terms, not as a delta between the other language they already know 09:44:29 jdz, I try that, but it's the human mind to connect stuff to other stuff you already know 09:46:14 -!- am0c [~am0c@110.8.127.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:48:00 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:48:29 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 09:48:50 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@109.67.215.238] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:49:11 am0c [~am0c@110.8.127.73] has joined #lisp 09:49:20 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-109-67-215-238.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 09:50:12 kdas_ [kdas@nat/redhat/x-pcebqglhnqefofbs] has joined #lisp 09:51:16 -!- sharpobject [~asdf@208.80.119.68] has left #lisp 09:52:41 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:53:48 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-109-67-215-238.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:54:23 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.14.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:58:05 -!- am0c [~am0c@110.8.127.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:00:10 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-134-3-121.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 10:00:10 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-134-3-121.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Changing host] 10:00:10 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:00:46 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:01:05 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:06:54 sammi` [sammi@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-ieqescgghqqkcwej] has joined #lisp 10:11:37 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:30:40 -!- kdas_ is now known as kushal 10:30:47 -!- kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-pcebqglhnqefofbs] has quit [Changing host] 10:30:48 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 10:36:51 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 10:40:27 h4r1 [~dbs@c-68-43-177-182.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:40:37 -!- h4r1 [~dbs@c-68-43-177-182.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:41:21 joelr [~joelr@95.60.213.7] has joined #lisp 10:41:23 moin 10:41:24 nha [~prefect@5-74.104-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 10:41:32 Yuuhi``` [benni@p5483D6D8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:41:38 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:42:07 is there a shorter and more elegant way of doing this? https://gist.github.com/82b5cbf51a96e09f4bdd 10:43:09 -!- Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483D6D8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:43:11 -!- tsanhwa [~user@2001:da8:8001:240:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:44:32 joelr: (remove-if #'keywordp args)? 10:44:41 -!- topeak [~topeak@61.149.231.124] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:45:00 Xach: no, because keywordp comes with an argument after it 10:45:23 Including that info in a docstring would make your function more elegant. 10:45:44 Xach: given '(foo bar :baz 1) i want to be left with '(foo bar) 10:45:54 joelr: alexandria:remove-from-plist? 10:46:17 jdz: thanks for the suggestion but i don't want to use additional packages 10:46:48 i could do this with a loop, except loop does not have a 'set' clause, only collect, append, count, etc 10:47:26 so i can't flip skip in a loop clause 10:47:26 yeah, too bad LOOP is crippled in this way 10:47:44 joelr: but you can sure write your own 10:47:52 indeed 10:47:55 joelr: read the loop documentation again, specifically the (for x on y by z) part 10:48:09 flip214: yes? 10:48:10 and/or the iterate documentation 10:48:15 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 253 seconds] 10:48:37 and what should "loop does not have a 'set' clause" mean? 10:48:41 joelr: and you're forbidden to look at the sources of libraries you do not use, too! 10:49:03 otherwise you'll miss the satisfaction of "i wrote it all" in the end 10:49:03 flip214: i used to have an 10:49:06 you can re-calculate something in every iteration, and/or you can use (setf) within a loop 10:49:26 oh, it's called NIH syndrome 10:49:54 and, TBH, you might want to think again regarding the "additional packages" .... sooner or later you'll get tired of re-implementing everything 10:49:56 (loop for value in (rest plist) by (function cddr) collect value) 10:50:39 look at CPAN .... would you re-write everything that's already available? do you re-implement libc, or winsock, or whatever else? 10:50:53 Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #lisp 10:50:58 pjb: oh no, I didn't want to solve it for him! 10:51:09 Ooops. 10:51:10 flip214: i hear you but  no. i have enough packages built into my lisp. 10:51:34 pjb: let me try that... 10:51:39 pjb: thanks 10:51:43 joelr: if that's the case then there's surely some other package that already has alexandria in the requirements list, and it won't cost you anything 10:52:18 flip214: i'm using no such package and no such package comes with my lisp. thanks for the suggestion, though. 10:52:59 well, good luck in future endeavors (and no, this is neither 100% nor 0% cynically meant) 10:53:31 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:53:46 I wouldn't compare alexandria and libc, libc comes with standard C 10:55:02 It doesn't. 10:55:29 well not every libc function is necessarily standard of course, but you see what I mean 10:56:00 cyrillos_ [~cyrill@188.134.60.41] has joined #lisp 10:56:42 phadthai: I would have compared like "I don't need a libc, syscalls are good enough for me. I used to write them myself when I was a boy, scratching on my charcoal pad with my toes while towing the school bus uphill ... etc" 10:57:21 well, if that's what he wants, let him do it; variety exists because of multiple implementations 10:59:20 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:59:48 i just prefer to stick to the packages that come with my lisp. no need to drag a chain of others in. said chain gets too long and causes inconvenience. 11:00:39 this works well, usually 11:01:20 particularly, when i have to give my code to a client 11:02:10 joelr: use quicklisp and live happily ever after, even with outside dependencies 11:02:38 joelr: http://blog.quicklisp.org/2011/08/going-back-in-dist-time.html 11:02:47 yes, i know about quicklisp. still prefer to minimize dependencies. 11:04:01 "you see, I used to think the same way .... but when the years have gone by, and you still write your first s-expr to HTML library, you start to think some more." 11:04:58 chturne [~chturne@2.26.72.157] has joined #lisp 11:05:43 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 11:07:32 then you're too old to produce anything new, and you die :) 11:07:39 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 11:08:58 nah, i feel quite productive 11:09:01 (I somehow was thinking about Pink Floyd when typing that) 11:09:39 I got a flash of supertramp ... "surely, there's a way, I could please you .... only in your past lie the tears ..." ;) 11:09:43 joelr: it wasn't for you heh 11:10:58 Sigh ... just some old busters thinking aloud. 11:12:23 droidtest [4813327f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.19.50.127] has joined #lisp 11:13:38 , 11:17:03 -!- yakov [~yakov@ip-83-149-3-156.nwgsm.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:19:31 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 11:24:10 hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 11:26:35 , 11:26:43 -!- droidtest [4813327f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.19.50.127] has left #lisp 11:34:15 pavelludiq [~pavelludi@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 11:34:36 -!- Intensity [XHwCtvVA9c@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [*.net *.split] 11:37:01 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has joined #lisp 11:37:28 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:39:58 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-154-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:40:55 marw [~marw@178.222.10.190] has joined #lisp 11:42:13 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.133.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:42:15 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-nqfqjdercfjyqnsx] has left #lisp 11:43:45 Quicklisp rocks! It has greatly simplified my lisp development. 11:44:19 Nothing to Hunchentoot in 5 minutes 11:44:20 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:44:30 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has joined #lisp 11:45:02 Especially in a lisp with (load "http://...") 11:45:16 billstclair: quicklisp is awesome 11:45:39 billstclair, 5 minutes? I can beat that http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxnwe16Bqyk :) 11:46:06 Actually, more like 10 minutes for me, starting from just quicklisp.org. Had to read some instructions. 11:47:02 But, yes. If you just trust the instructions and follow them, it's very quick 11:48:11 It was difficult for me to believe, though, at the beginning, that it could possibly be that simple. 11:50:44 MoALTz [~no@host-92-18-2-150.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 11:51:04 paste does not work? anyway, i'm starting with lisp, and i have problems with... hm... hello-world: 11:51:15 (defun hello-world () (format t "Hello, world!")) 11:52:24 marw, whats the problem? 11:52:43 after i do C-c C-c and call it by (hello-world) 1) it reports an error 2) nothing happens 11:53:17 what error? 11:53:43 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:53:58 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 11:55:04 this is the screenshot: http://tinypic.com/r/s6rl0j/7 11:55:13 -!- joelr [~joelr@95.60.213.7] has quit [Quit: joelr] 11:55:31 error was something like "hello-world called with arguments ()" 11:55:51 marw: are you sure C-c C-c is working? 11:56:15 lnostdal [~Lars@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 11:56:37 marw: try C-x C-e ? 11:57:27 sanjoyd: i put the cursor on the word "format", do Cc Cc and it says that compilation is ok 11:57:38 -!- lnostdal [~Lars@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:58:30 furthermore, i have errors when starting lispbox 11:59:08 BrokenCog [~danielj@adsl-065-081-078-141.sip.pns.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 11:59:46 lnostdal [~Lars@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 11:59:46 -!- na[k] [~textual@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:00:10 sorry for not using the above paste, because it does not work. but, here are the errors in console: http://pastebin.com/qT38hExh 12:01:02 SteveG [~Steve@c-71-195-234-222.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:02:18 can i rely on the reader form for (get-setf-expansion `(gethash ,key ,ht)) to return a second value stating if the key is set? 12:02:46 (forgot env, but that's beyond the point) 12:03:03 nicdev [~nicdev@c-98-217-188-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:03:03 -!- lnostdal [~Lars@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has quit [Client Quit] 12:10:54 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:11:06 Athas [~athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 12:11:24 -!- nicdev [~nicdev@c-98-217-188-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: nicdev] 12:12:48 nicdev [~nicdev@c-98-217-188-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:16:26 ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #lisp 12:19:42 -!- nicdev [~nicdev@c-98-217-188-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: nicdev] 12:21:25 francogrex [franco@216.86.77.194] has joined #lisp 12:21:45 billstclair: glad to hear it 12:22:14 *Xach* smells a new tagline: "Quicklisp: it's hardly credible how simple it is!" 12:23:11 Xach: better make that "Quicklisp: it's hardly credible how incredible it is!" 12:23:12 Hi, to document my outputs and other messages when I run a program I am using dribble at beginning and end of file. But that works only if interactively with repl. When using (load file) the function definitions, comments etc are not output. So I suppose dribble is not the best way to log the session. 12:23:15 lnostdal [~Lars@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 12:24:02 does anyway use a function to store the log files (like date of the runn and other messages from the compiler etc)? 12:24:04 SteveG1 [~steve@c-71-195-234-222.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:25:29 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:28:56 francogrex: usually those are sent to a standard stream, and you can rebind the stream to something of your choosing. 12:30:33 Xach: ok; I start doing that. management is anal about keeping all the logs of any program run (date of run, warnings, errors etc). 12:31:10 management! 12:31:22 bureaucracy! 12:31:30 them! 12:31:49 Xach: those who control what I work on etc 12:32:28 -!- SteveG [~Steve@c-71-195-234-222.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:32:32 francogrex: when I need something like that (for the console), I usually use screen 12:32:49 although that might not match your needs, if you're going via slime 12:33:00 francogrex: i used "!" rather than "?" 12:33:35 -!- SteveG1 [~steve@c-71-195-234-222.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has left #lisp 12:33:57 flip214: I think what Xach suggest is what I need. Actually anything that shows what has been done at the time it was run, is fine 12:34:18 yeah, I'm still a slav 12:34:32 slave 12:35:45 it's mostly in your mind 12:36:44 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-110-130.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:36:55 capitalism is based on freedom, so it's only the consciousness of the workers that holds things back 12:37:02 -!- drdo [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:37:08 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-135-221.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:37:08 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 12:37:53 H4ns [~user@p4FFC9AD0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:38:11 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:38:14 pcavs [~Adium@c-65-96-169-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:39:54 s/only/mostly/ 12:39:54 I'm thinking to start slowly taking on small jobs after hours, there is a place on the net where people post their needs and they offer a certain amount for programmers... but that's another discussion 12:40:46 thousands of them, mostly clogged with idiots and parasites, so no good place 12:40:50 dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:05 Harag [~phil@wbs-41-208-201-124.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:41:07 i.e. not yet 12:41:13 ok 12:41:35 JuanDaugherty: capitalism is based on money. liberalism is based on freedom. 12:42:04 #lisp is based on lists 12:42:12 incf Xach 12:42:19 I meant Capitalism, the Unknown Ideal 12:42:52 *JuanDaugherty* could be described as a Randian Trotskyite. 12:43:51 in a sublation or monad oder 12:44:27 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 12:45:17 Xach: lisp is not just a lisp processor anymore <----------- is what I'm reading in every lisp book written in the last 20 years 12:45:38 the essense of lisp is list processing 12:45:54 flip214: A feeble attempt to drag things back ontopic. 12:45:55 might as well say "c is based on integers" - while true up to a point it doesn't grasp the essential point 12:46:11 bust "list processor" does grasp it 12:46:14 Xach: yes, I know ... better luck next time ;) 12:46:16 but* 12:48:22 -!- renesis [~redmundia@84.122.73.141.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: Chateando desde http://webchat.redmundial.org (Session timeout)] 12:50:16 SteveG [~Steve@c-71-195-234-222.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:53:41 -!- SteveG [~Steve@c-71-195-234-222.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:54:08 SteveG [~Steve@c-71-195-234-222.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:18 -!- francogrex [franco@216.86.77.194] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:56:52 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-149-186-129.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:00:08 *JuanDaugherty* thinks of lisp as a family of langs based on the lambda calculus. 13:00:41 but less general than that due to lineage from the ancestor 13:00:44 the language in which the universe was written 13:00:52 oh, it was perl, true 13:01:46 Athas` [~athas@fw.math.ku.dk] has joined #lisp 13:02:25 anything new and interesting in the area of lisp OS? 13:02:50 there is a mit-cadr project on common-lisp.net now. 13:03:16 "new" or "interesting" depends on you, of course, but that is lisp os related at least. 13:03:50 -!- Athas [~athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:06:19 *JuanDaugherty* is checking it out. 13:06:49 JuanDaugherty: brad parker intended to commit something to its svn this morning, don't know if that has happened yet. 13:07:19 pjb: does your pseudoscheme archive have a COPYING file? 13:08:39 -!- Athas` is now known as Athas 13:08:40 -!- Athas [~athas@fw.math.ku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:08:46 Athas` [~athas@fw.math.ku.dk] has joined #lisp 13:08:54 i installed slime and common lisp. after i load a lisp code, and do Cc Cc, i get the message "not connected". how do i resolve this? 13:08:58 -!- pcavs [~Adium@c-65-96-169-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:09:18 marw: did you start slime with M-x slime? 13:09:29 -!- Athas` is now known as Athas 13:09:32 doesn't seem to be anything there ATM. Mistakenly went to commonlist.net at first though, which was tangentially relevant. 13:09:40 -!- tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:10:48 tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:11:10 H4ns: i have now. thanks, it seems to be working... :) 13:11:23 marw: yw 13:11:31 is there a fast way to dump a fixnum in sbcl's internal representation and read it back in? efficient comparison of byte-arrays would be just as good. 13:11:34 *commonlisp.net 13:12:00 on the same line of thought: is it possible, again under sbcl, to jump around in a file by setting the pointer to a different position? 13:12:17 -!- mindCrime_ [~chatzilla@cpe-076-182-089-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:12:37 now i can start learning lisp. 13:12:49 ccorn [~ccorn@84-53-64-50.adsl.unet.nl] has joined #lisp 13:13:11 madnificent: does cl:file-position not work for you? 13:13:27 H4ns: it didn't before i knew it. thanks 13:13:29 urandom__ [~user@p548A3BF3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:14:41 so I guess, minimally interesting, but some 13:20:22 and the stuff on his site seems to be the ancient stuff without e.g. an emulator adapted to current unix 13:21:11 -!- marw [~marw@178.222.10.190] has left #lisp 13:22:39 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-cehoqhyuvugvkrxx] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:22:41 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:22:54 guess that's wrong, does say something aboud dos and mac emulation 13:22:59 *about 13:23:25 doesn't look to be very far along 13:24:40 JuanDaugherty, emacs? 13:26:38 -!- wormwood [~wormwood@pdpc/supporter/student/wormwood] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:30:59 Xach: indeed, with a Copyright (c) 1989-1994 Jonathan Rees 13:31:01 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-148-6.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:31:07 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-148-6.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:32:42 Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:10 pjb: What kind of license is it? 13:34:12 any ideas on the comparison of byte arrays? they should basically be interpreted in a way integers are interpreted. it's obviously simple to write this manually, though it'd be nice if there'd be some operation for this. comparing fixnums is cheap, i think comparing byte-arrays manually will prove to be much more expensive. 13:34:40 mjs2600 [~user@user-0c999k2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 13:36:41 madnificent: step 1: try the obvious, with declarations 13:36:52 madnificent: step 2: if it's not fast enough, try to trick jsnell or pkhuong into caring about it 13:37:15 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.15] has joined #lisp 13:37:55 *sob* 13:38:09 or maybe I am just immune to caring 13:38:21 Too hard to trick. I really should limit it to pkhuong. 13:38:23 crunzcrunch [~33@151.75.185.42] has joined #lisp 13:38:54 how am i supposed to debug a program when emacs/slime tells me "lisp connection closed unexpectedly: connection broken by remote peer" as soon as i try to compile it with c-c c-K? 13:39:15 Xach: so declaring it to be of type (integer 0 *) and manually comparing on each byte would be the best guess, right? 13:39:37 madnificent: What is "it"? 13:39:42 Kryztof: wait, you run jsnell as a nickname as well? 13:40:01 crunzcrunch: That indicates some kind of serious problem. What CL do you use? 13:40:06 clisp 13:40:21 but the program doesn't do anything, just defines a bunch of functions... 13:40:22 kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 13:40:26 crunzcrunch: You might have some information about what went wrong in the *inferior-lisp* buffer. 13:40:34 Joreji [~thomas@88-255.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:40:41 madnificent: the obvious might just be EQUALP 13:40:49 Kryztof: i need < and > 13:40:49 Hello #lisp 13:40:50 you're right as always xach, thank you 13:41:01 crunzcrunch: what went wrong? 13:41:21 Kryztof: otherwise i would've done that, yes :) (or better yet, substract and use plusp, perhaps it's faster) 13:41:28 madnificent: then as you say 13:41:29 -!- kami` is now known as kami 13:41:35 Kryztof: thanks 13:41:35 madnificent: I think I'd start with MISMATCH. 13:42:01 WARNING: Test failed: (&KEY (#'F)) => "(&key ( function ..))" 13:42:01 Expected: "(&key ((function ..)))" 13:42:13 i still don't understand it , but it refers to something i just added today so it must be it 13:42:23 Xach: smart! thanks :D 13:42:42 #'(lambda (lst) 13:42:42 (/ (apply #'+ (mapcar #'(lambda (x) (elt x f)) lst)) (length lst))) 13:42:42 ask-or-bid sma-period time-period position tick-position)) 13:42:54 madnificent: I wonder if mistmatch could be made to work word-at-time. 13:44:06 *Xach* eyes Kryztof 13:44:41 Xach: you mean only reading a word from the stream when it's needed? 13:45:49 -!- kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:45:54 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:46:03 Xach: I would imagine that that would not be very much work for the interested party 13:46:12 madnificent: i mean comparing 4 or 8 octets at a time 13:46:16 -!- Harag [~phil@wbs-41-208-201-124.wbs.co.za] has left #lisp 13:46:37 or maybe there's some wacky trick to do more at a time 13:46:42 *Xach* waves hands 13:46:53 Xach: http://paste.lisp.org/display/124728 13:46:56 Xach: oh, that'd make it just as good as working with fixnums (at least with 8 words) 13:47:07 working with fixnums is the pits.' 13:47:19 Love in SBCL means never having to say you're a fixnum. 13:47:20 it's fast 13:47:28 It's rarely what you really mean. 13:48:06 kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 13:48:18 There's probably a hideous trick to convince sbcl that you've actually got a bignum. (A bignum is basically a sequence of words) 13:48:20 pjb: Thanks. He has expressed a willingness to relicense with something different, and was interested in an ASDF-ified, updated version. 13:48:36 ok. 13:48:56 Though he said it might be tricky to bootstrap with ASDF. Not sure what that means. 13:48:59 Kryztof: don't think so: our codegen can't exploit that. 13:49:14 I don't really want to work on it, but I would like to see pseudoscheme work in modern popular CLs. 13:49:59 pkhuong: what what? 13:51:01 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:51:20 Kryztof: oh, you mean pun the array into a vignum 13:51:22 *bignum 13:51:29 yeah, that'd work, if the array is small enough. 13:51:34 Xach: Well, it starts with a loader file, so... 13:52:07 housel [~user@ip70-187-191-250.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:37 pcavs [~Adium@63.139.127.6] has joined #lisp 13:52:53 pjb: that's hardly sporting 13:52:55 (with-changed-representations ((x bignum) (y bignum)) (< x y)) 13:53:06 ;;; XXX not-thread-safe :-) 13:54:12 Tasser: no. 13:54:15 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.168] has quit [Quit: Offline] 13:54:30 *JuanDaugherty* (iiuc) 13:54:59 Kryztof: vector-raw-bits or memcmp(3) (: 13:57:01 Kryztof: whay isn't that thread-safe? 13:57:27 pkhuong: since when have you been channeling antifuchs? 13:57:38 madnificent: well, it doesn't actually exist 13:58:28 Kryztof: couple of years. antifuchs can't compensate for all these opening parentheses by himself. 13:58:32 if it did, it would mutate the header word of the object to temporarily pretend that the object is of a radically different type 13:58:45 I hope you can see that that might make other threads unhappy 13:59:32 and even the same thread, given aliasing 13:59:43 blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-43568cfa.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:59:56 Kryztof: only if those threads would use said object, right? 14:00:08 killerboy: poke? 14:00:57 *madnificent* doesn't know enough about sbcl's internals to estimate the effects 14:01:15 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.178.1] has joined #lisp 14:01:36 debugging lisp is so difficult... it never tells me what line the error is on 14:01:46 i must always go blind making guesses 14:01:52 crunzcrunch: SLIME and SBCL does, for me. 14:02:07 and why clisp doesn't do it? 14:02:07 crunzcrunch: it tells you which functions were called and which arguments were passed, that should provide you with decent insights 14:02:10 in fact, it reports forms, which are even more precise than lines. 14:02:12 crunzcrunch: you don't need the line. Check the form. 14:02:22 crunzcrunch: I think most lisps will tell you which _byte_ or _character_ the error is on ... 14:02:46 for example now it tells me that a certain variable is not bound, but it is only one letter name and i use that name throughout the program, i don't know how to find the culprit 14:03:01 i should re-read all the program line by line 14:03:07 crunzcrunch: check the call stack 14:03:24 crunzcrunch: certainly not. type M-n to locate the next error. 14:03:33 crunzcrunch: or M-p to go to the previous error. 14:04:04 that's the sort of error SBCL will warn you about at compile-time, and SLIME will interpret the location information to point you to the right symbol (which you can use via M-n/M-p) 14:04:04 it reports the start of the block, but it includes almost all the proram 14:04:17 crunzcrunch: M-. will jump to the definition of the function you're looking at in the stack trace. 14:04:35 v will jump to the form that triggered the error. 14:04:51 crunzcrunch: also, if you have a block including almost all the program, your functions are too big 14:04:56 but the form is just one giant "let" that includes all the program 14:05:05 Xach: better than M-. 14:05:07 crunzcrunch: that's not a good thing to begin with. 14:05:15 crunzcrunch: also, one-letter variable names are bad. 14:05:16 i need some variables used by a lot of functions that operate on the same data 14:05:17 but these other people tell you the truth, too: you should be being pointed by your lisp directly at the error 14:05:32 crunzcrunch: have you thought about using defvar or defparameter? 14:05:44 and the stack trace will tell you about the dynamic call stack, too 14:05:50 the program is divided in blocks, and only the functions that operate on that data need to concern with it 14:05:55 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:06:10 (please don't defend your program style while simultaneously describing it as hard to debug) 14:06:38 i'm not defending my style, but at my present knoledge (admittedly very superficial) it seems like the best thing to do 14:06:45 crunzcrunch: or, put the other way round: common lisp environments are not optimized towards debugging programs written in that style. 14:06:51 incf Kryztof 14:07:04 crunzcrunch: it is not. use defvar / defparameter for globals. 14:07:25 crunzcrunch: don't be afraid of globals for now. a global let is worse. 14:07:32 anyway, the answer is that your lisp should be giving you form-level (not "block"-level) debug information, and if it isn't, throw it out and get a different one 14:07:36 i have maybe twenty functions related to load, analyze and modify certain data, and i would like other functions to call these functions when they need to operate on the data, i would like to avoid having every line of code messing with the data directly 14:08:00 crunzcrunch: with different one Kryztof probably wants to say "use sbcl for now, it makes life easier on you) 14:08:10 i'm going to download it 14:08:16 crunzcrunch: use packages. put all the function that operate on that global data into a package. 14:08:18 how do i tell slime to start using sblc rather then clisp, then? 14:08:23 crunzcrunch: perhaps use CLOS? 14:08:51 guys i really don't want to be hard-headed, it's just that i'm learning now, and i don't want to focus on too many things at the same times 14:08:53 *time 14:09:21 crunzcrunch: if you remove the global let, you'll have a much better debugging experience. 14:10:20 -!- silenius [~silenius@p4FFC8366.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:10:21 crunzcrunch: no one is blaming you for anything :) i'd either go with what H4ns said (use packages and defvar) or just use defvar and accept it for now. i think you'd actually like to use an object oriented approach, which is what CLOS is. but indeed, CLOS takes some time to learn. 14:10:42 yes i'm planning on learning it, just not now :) 14:10:59 i'm going to install sblc 14:11:04 *sbcl 14:11:19 crunzcrunch: to debug with clisp you must NOT compile the code. 14:11:34 so whatshould i use instead of c-c c-k? 14:11:57 crunzcrunch: C-c C-l 14:12:02 also, have a look at http://www.cliki.net/TutorialClispDebugger 14:12:11 ok thanks 14:12:50 To debug a library, you'd have to load its sources instead of its binaries,with (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-source-op :library) 14:14:34 dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 14:15:32 rbuck_ [rbuck@nat/redhat/x-zbwyvtmnvrvzdhtw] has joined #lisp 14:15:36 -!- sammi` [sammi@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-ieqescgghqqkcwej] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:16:16 -!- rbuck_ [rbuck@nat/redhat/x-zbwyvtmnvrvzdhtw] has quit [Client Quit] 14:16:47 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@58.61.214.41] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:17:01 rbuck [rbuck@nat/redhat/x-yzcifcsfjyinhcrs] has joined #lisp 14:17:14 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:18:40 fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-160-219.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 14:21:32 francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has joined #lisp 14:25:05 -!- sellout-1 is now known as sellout 14:28:55 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:29:27 petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc1-midd16-2-0-cust160.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 14:30:05 -!- pavelludiq [~pavelludi@87.246.58.193] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:30:29 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 14:31:51 rme [~rme@50.43.135.89] has joined #lisp 14:33:47 why do I need to (funcall fn ... ) and not just (fn ... ) ? 14:34:05 Tasser: because CL is a lisp-2. 14:34:18 See http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html 14:35:03 -!- francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:36:03 pjb, that would be possible in a lisp-1 ? 14:36:41 Yes. For example in scheme. 14:37:05 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.233] has joined #lisp 14:37:32 But: (mapcar (lambda (list) (list list list)) '(1 2 3)) --> ((1 1) (2 2) (3 3)) 14:38:04 would have to be written in scheme: (map (lambda (lst) (list lst lst)) '(1 2 3)) 14:38:26 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-110-130.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 14:38:38 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-122-110.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:38:49 so it's simply a matter of convention? 14:38:55 Yes. 14:39:19 It's a choice the language designers have to make. 14:39:45 Now, in natural language, we often use the same word as verb and as noun, so to me it seems more natural to use a lisp-2. 14:41:42 "time flies like an arrow and flies like a banana" == (and (flies time (like arrow)) (flies like banana)) 14:42:09 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 14:43:32 kk 14:44:22 oops, it's: (and (time flies (like arrow)) (flies like banana)) 14:44:44 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:45:04 -!- rbuck [rbuck@nat/redhat/x-yzcifcsfjyinhcrs] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:45:13 ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #lisp 14:45:54 (like flies banana)? 14:46:05 milanj [~milanj_@82.117.199.26] has joined #lisp 14:46:08 (verb subject complement) 14:46:23 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 14:46:25 "flies like banana" <-> (like flies banana) 14:46:41 right, not (flies like banana) 14:47:24 anyway, being lisp-2 or not should only matter when the thing at car is a symbol 14:47:41 Yes. 14:47:50 i'd find it very useful to e.g. ((return a function) args...) 14:48:12 but the only thing that works that way there is (lambda ...) 14:48:49 acelent: how about (funcall (return a function) args) ? 14:49:43 flip214: that's fine most of the time, but once you get enough funcall's in the middle, it's visual trash 14:50:15 Then, there are the lisp-1 macros... 14:50:22 flip214: i know ((return a function) args...) isn't the most obvious thing either, but i personally would find it useful 14:51:00 acelent: install a reader macro on #\( ... 14:51:17 if the next character is a #\ again, insert a funcall ... 14:51:20 pjb: aren't they're easier to be hygenic than lisp-2, regarding function names? 14:51:56 altsrid [~altsrid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 14:52:06 No. The problem of lisp-1, is that your macros MUST be hygienic. The advantage of lisp-2 is that even if your macros are not hygienic, they work as you want. 14:52:24 loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 14:52:35 flip214: :) i might do that. i've dreamed of something similar to implement (. . ) where method-name is actually a class slot (i.e. much like other oop languages with single dispatch) 14:53:39 acelent: eh no 14:53:40 pjb: how can you make a macro in lisp-2 guarantee that a returned expression (f a b) will use the global function definition of f instead of a lexical one? 14:53:51 am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.83] has joined #lisp 14:54:20 acelent: i have an extension that lets you sortof do that but you want as little change between the way it is now and that 14:54:21 acelent: By using only functions in CL and relying on 11.1.2.1.2. 14:54:43 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.178.1] has quit [Quit: Offline] 14:55:23 sogeking99 [~sogeking9@5ac58a4e.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 14:55:43 pjb: ok, but that is mostly resolved by not being conformant to define lexical functions with CL function/operator names 14:55:44 hey guys, which is a better first language, common lisp, or scheme. 14:55:54 -!- crunzcrunch [~33@151.75.185.42] has quit [Quit: Sto andando via] 14:55:59 pjb: not really by an higenic system 14:56:01 sogeking99: whichever one you actually use. 14:56:04 Is a hat better than a haddock? 14:56:24 sogeking99: the channel is about #lisp, which is used to denote common lisp. as i'm here, i prefer common lisp. 14:56:27 acelent: no, it's not hygienic, but it works. 14:56:55 that shows the power of lisp-2. 14:57:19 whats the really good resource to learn either? 14:57:25 pjb: it works because you can't have (flet ((cl:list ...)))... well ok 14:57:46 sogeking99: what's your current level of knowledge? do you know other programming languages? 14:57:47 sogeking99: see "practical common lisp" 14:57:53 -!- altsrid [~altsrid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:58:12 `(funcall (symbol-function f) ,a ,b) could do it 14:58:22 madnificent, i know about variables, data types and functions, and basic OO, but thats it really 14:58:24
sogeking99: yes! See "Practical Common Lisp"! 14:58:24 rbuck [rbuck@nat/redhat/x-qsppxungxxsutncq] has joined #lisp 14:58:31 some action script 14:58:36 PCL might be a bit fast going for a first language. You might want to mix it with touretzky's gentle introduction to symbolic programming. 14:58:49 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 14:59:23 to be honoust, i think practical common lisp (denoted as PCL) may be a bit quick then. it assumes prior knowledge about other programming languages. i think i'd try to go for SICP (symbolic introduction to computer programs IIRC). 14:59:33 oGMo: do you have it in a public repo? 14:59:44
I like that PCL gets you writing interesting (to some anyway) "real" code fairly quickly! 14:59:52 sogeking99: also, pkhuong is more authorative on the matter than i am 15:00:25 madnificent: "SI" means "Structure and Interpretation..." 15:00:36 dl: true, but if you haven't programmed before, it'll be hard to grasp concepts like conditions and restarts. 15:00:37 (afaik) 15:00:42 loke: thanks 15:00:42 acelent: not yet, not quite ready, but i could soonish .. after having used it for awhile i'm reworking things for maximum usefulness 15:00:48
madnificent: SICP as in Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs? Personally, I think its (much) more advanced and theoretical than PCL 15:01:12 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.178.1] has joined #lisp 15:01:14 SICP teaches programming rather than lisp, though. 15:01:17 dl: but it does require less prior knowledge. it explains how things work 15:01:18
SICP is /good/! I learned more from the first chapter than I did from several years at UNM's CS program! 15:01:22 -!- Athas [~athas@fw.math.ku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:01:36 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc1-midd16-2-0-cust160.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:01:42 sogeking99: how practically inclined are you? 15:02:01 *loke* has just started working on a library I call CL-GDATA. I.e. a CL interface to Google API's. Are there anyone here that would also find such library useful in any way? 15:02:14 loke: i would find it useful 15:02:16 *dl* thinks madnificent hit the nail on the head! It will also (IMO) influence your choice between CL and Scheme 15:02:28 dlowe [dlowe@nat/google/x-nuawltmodqkakdnv] has joined #lisp 15:02:31 loke: which google api? 15:02:40 dl: I agree! 15:02:53 i am quite kinesthetic 15:03:05 madnificent: all of them :-) (but right now, I'm starting with the Spreadhseet API, mainly because I have use for that one myself. The next one will be the Google+ API once it's fully opened. 15:03:41
IMO, CL is more for getting things done now and Scheme is prettier from a computer science type perspective 15:04:08 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:04:10 -!- Iceland_jack [~baldur@earth.sudo.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:04:20 loke: i'd be interested. which license? 15:04:27 madnificent: BSD 15:04:36 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:04:39 madnificent: or anything more open 15:04:51 loke: in that case i'm interested. what's your target date for something basic? 15:04:58 dl: if "more sterile" is prettier, maybe ;/ 15:05:00 madnificent: I dunno. Next week? 15:05:16 loke: woah, you're quick! i'll definately try it out then :D 15:05:21 madnificent: I only got the bare minimum running at the moment. 15:05:50 loke: sure, put it on github or something? this could be fun to toy with! :D 15:06:12
oGMo: lol :) I'm a CL user who'se started a group that lets Schemers in the door (so I try not to diss them too hard ;) 15:06:13 madnificent: OK, cool. The thing is, that I want people to look at it as soon at it at least barely works. This is because I want to be told what's wrong before I waste too much time on this. 15:06:13 pkhuong, did you mean A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation 15:06:38 *dl* would be interested in the Google Spreadsheet API from CL! 15:07:08 RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@dyn-160-39-33-144.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 15:07:13 *dl* thinks it /may/ help me to produce spreadsheets from CL that I can then give to my boss in her preferred eXcel format (yug!) :) 15:07:19 dl: oh, i just mean the language; i find it lacks what makes CL interesting/useful/beautiful 15:07:40 madnificent: I'll put it on some kind of service hopefully next week or so. (it won't be github as I don't like git, but perhaps Google Code? (they support Mercurial)) 15:07:47 loke: seriously, if this were a job interview, i'd be hiring :P 15:07:47 dl: you can always write spreadsheetml. 15:07:52 some people think the opposite for the same reasons, but both will run at the same time, so hey 15:08:15
oGMo: they've also got fun things like continuations in Scheme (which are interesting from a CS type perspective at least) 15:08:21 *dl* is not a Computer Scientist :) 15:08:22 loke: all good, i haven't used Mercurial extensively 15:08:26 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has left #lisp 15:08:38 dl: true, and same 15:08:40 Cool. All I wanted to know was if there was interest. I'll post an update later. 15:08:43 *dl* can't get past the hygenic macros, personally... 15:08:53 exactly 15:08:55 so i have a small list of possible books, SICP, land of lisp, PCL and A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation. hmm 15:09:18
please give me a loaded shotgun and if I'd like to point it at my foot, thats my perogative! :) 15:09:27 loke: if you dislike git but like github, try bitbucket.org 15:09:59 -!- rbuck [rbuck@nat/redhat/x-qsppxungxxsutncq] has quit [Quit: rbuck gone away...] 15:10:23
H4ns: thanks for the pointer to spreadsheetml! 15:10:46 sogeking99: if you have some spare time to spend on it. i'd try to read PCL slowly, maybe. it's really practical, but it may be relatively complex. altough it's written in an easily readable fashion, it requires quite a lot of thought. but it does offer examples roughly everywhere. 15:11:45 dl: yw :) 15:12:05 madnificent, ok i'll check that out 15:13:40 acelent: I've looked at it. It's nice. I'm cosidering moving to it 15:15:49 *dl* is thinking of writing a new command-line option processing library: in short, options will be defined with a lambda list to specify arguments to the option and an action (implicit PROGN) to run in response to seeing that option -- I'm hoping it will be "more Lispy" than alternatives that all feel to me like getopt : Does this already exist? Is it a bad idea(TM)? 15:16:27 dl: I'm very fond of python's argparse api 15:16:35 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:17:14
dlowe: what do you like about it? 15:17:26 dl: there are at least three command-line processing libraries already. i haven't tried any of them. 15:17:43 dl: have a look at http://git.informatimago.com/viewgit/index.php?a=viewblob&p=public/bin&h=6a37dd5966274aa5717063baef49b5c24c3fddc1&hb=7b135c7a72a0edf06673fda397c2dfda56c21d5a&f=script.lisp 15:17:47 *Xach* is pleased/frightened to see ECLM fill up with nearly 80 people 15:17:55 dl: it's just very simple. You make an argparse object, call add_argument for each of your options. The parameters for add_argument are very sensible 15:18:03 *madnificent* doesn't think he can afford ECLM :( 15:18:04 moah [~gnu@dslb-092-073-066-073.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:09 dl: the hard thing is getting the lambda-list right: optional arguments (switches) that may have counter-parts (negation), --long=value and -short value equivalence, don't allow repetition, allow and use first or override with last or create a list, etc. 15:18:17 *ZabaQ* thought about going to ECLM..but not sure it's got much to offer the enthusiast dabbler 15:18:28 dl: and then you tell it to parse and it returns an object with all your parsed out information 15:18:38 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-59-169.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:18:43 -!- tempire [~tempire@pool-72-91-241-135.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:19:07 dl: seriously, you could do worse than starting out with that as a template: http://docs.python.org/dev/library/argparse.html 15:20:08 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:20:28 I really like gflags. the best feature is that you can spread the flag definitions into multiple files, rather than have a single central place where they are all declared 15:21:29 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:13 kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-3-241.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 15:23:31
While I've certainly not looked at all of the libraries out there, I'm finding a mismatch between things like getopt (and command-line-arguments from QITAB) and CL functions (optional arguments, and &rest mostly) 15:23:32 jsnell: well, you can do the same with argparse, you just do it by passing the object around 15:23:56 dl: yeah, getopt sucks. I'd like a nicer CL alternative 15:24:15 -!- manuel__ [~manuel_@pD9FDD35D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 15:24:24
Anybody using any command-line option libraries in CL that they /really like/? 15:24:41 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-233-179-168.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:55 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-233-179-168.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:24:55 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 15:24:59 the whole CL scripting experience should be given some attention, it's not only the arguments 15:25:03 nanoc [~conanhome@186.123.66.177] has joined #lisp 15:26:25
madnificent: the CL scripting experience? 15:26:41 trebor_home [~email@dslb-088-069-134-019.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:57
do you mean like writing "shell scripts" in CL or ??? 15:27:05 -!- ocharles [u411@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vtvmveiwmmhqqxyx] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:27:11 -!- y3llow [~y3llow@111-240-178-227.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 15:27:14 y3llow_ [~y3llow@111-240-178-227.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:28 dlowe: if you know all the places that the object needs to be passed to 15:27:56 -!- y3llow_ is now known as y3llow 15:28:53 -!- e-user [e-user@nat/nokia/x-ltqjotyqqocycjgw] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:28:59 -!- marsell [~marsell@120.22.140.114] has quit [Quit: marsell] 15:29:38 -!- am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:30:59 tempire [~tempire@pool-72-91-241-135.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:04 am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.83] has joined #lisp 15:32:24 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-160-219.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:33:56 ocharles_ [u411@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dodeqoawxyspesqt] has joined #lisp 15:33:58 wormwood [~wormwood@pdpc/supporter/student/wormwood] has joined #lisp 15:34:06 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.33.18.252] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:34:23 peterhil` [~peterhil@GGMD.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 15:37:20 heh, lisp "scripts" that were a thin interface to a running lisp would be nifty 15:37:25 -!- am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:37:37 probably use swank for that 15:39:19 no reload/test cycle as per "conventional" scripts.. could develop them the lispy way 15:39:29 jsnell: if you' 15:39:33 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:39:50 jsnell: if you're overwhelmed by the number of arguments, perhaps it's time to consider a config file rather than stuffing the command line 15:40:34 am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.83] has joined #lisp 15:41:20 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@84-53-64-50.adsl.unet.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 15:41:38 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 15:42:31 -!- georgikeith [georgekeit@nat/google/x-kzgrkypklsenfiqf] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:44:09 ehu [~ehuels@109.33.18.252] has joined #lisp 15:44:46 gkeith_lt [georgekeit@nat/google/x-oxrlqjbuxkagarea] has joined #lisp 15:45:07 fantazo [~fantazo@178-190-239-43.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 15:46:26 hi Lisp room. My name is Romy, I am a graphic designer teaching herself programming. I would like to learn some Lisp, as well. I am very comfortable with Vim, and didn't have a reason to learn Emacs, until while proceeding my Lisp forays I ran into Emacs Lisp. I thought this might be a neat way to learn both Lisp and Emacs, until I read there were 'substantial differences' in Lisp Emacs and common Lisp. What are your thought 15:46:27 the number of arguments isn't a problem (well, generally. ah, the good old days of having to worry about the 128kB command line length limit) 15:47:25 but if you want convenient configuration of a modular system, the configuration needs to be expressable in a totally modular way, rather than through some central point as well 15:47:30 seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:47:47 RomyEatsDrupal: my thought is that you should never be afraid to learn new things 15:48:09 Except for things that drive you insane. 15:48:37 Right. Don't learn those. 15:48:50 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 15:48:57 learning both in this case is especially beneficial :P 15:49:00 RomyEatsDrupal: emacs lisp can be used to configure emacs in a relatively simple way, or to program substantial applications (but basically always using emacs as the interface to the operating system). Common Lisp is more general-purpose, used as a programming language and environment without any particular bias to any particular interface. The languages are similar in many respects but different in others 15:49:16 RomyEatsDrupal: I'm new to lisp too, and from what I've read so far, emacs lisp is a subset of common lisp. Besides, if you're ok with vim, then there's no point in going for emacs, unless time is on your side 15:49:46 It's not a subset. 15:50:15 dlowe: I think I've read it in the book 'practical common lisp', but not sure if I recall well 15:50:47 -!- Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:50:59 TDT [~TDT@5317-nat01.eng.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 15:51:40 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:51:54 does not seem likely 15:52:03 Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #lisp 15:52:13 Hm Yes, I am fond of Vim, but I wanted to try Emacs as well. Too bad the two languages differ from one another (Emacs Lisp and Common Lisp) THe reason why I wanted to learn Lisp, however, was because of many converteés waxing poetic and lovelorn about its beauty and capabilities 15:52:38 So I guess learning it general purpose would better fit my goal (?) if that makes any sense. 15:52:44 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:53:02 *dl* finds that Emacs Lisp and Common Lisp are usually "similar enough", especially when you use the 'cl package in Emacs 15:53:04 you don't need to learn emacs lisp to use emacs/slime, either 15:53:10 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Client Quit] 15:53:10 So I take it Emacs Lisp is not so much a general purpose language as it is configuration for Emacs? 15:53:15 you can learn it when you want to make emacs work differently 15:53:17 kushal [~kdas@114.143.165.209] has joined #lisp 15:53:17 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.165.209] has quit [Changing host] 15:53:17 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 15:53:42 romy: It's general purpose -- it's just kind of crap. 15:53:46
RomyEatsDrupal: Emacs Lisp is to configure and modify Emacs 15:54:51 thank you so much, guys and girls! :D :D :D 15:55:09 well, emacs lisp is a configuration language for emacs, but emacs is a turing machine. 15:55:19 I see now! It is Common Lisp with which I need to orient myself. 15:55:49 *dl* *used* to be a VI *biggot*: Now I find VI and Emacs both have their place (but I use Emacs more than VI these days) 15:55:50 Hey all. I was giving a little thought about project management and was curious on opinions. I have a lot of "little projects" that I want to wrap up in a larger project. For example, the large prolject called cl-bio (Like biopython, bioruby, etc), and has multiple subprojects, one for sam files, one for dbsnp, etc, etc. I'm trying to think of a good way to manage these projects and I was thinking of a way where cl-bio would import from all the 15:55:50 subprojectsso all one would have to do is say (require :cl-bio), or use :cl-bio, and get all the subproject stuff. My big question had to do with the exportsif I export from a subproject, I'd have to reexport in cl-biomy guess is that'd break pretty easily trying to keep them in sync. 15:56:21
TDT: Why not use ASDF? 15:57:07 *dl* is now using quicklisp/ASDF for my projects 15:57:20 -!- sogeking99 [~sogeking9@5ac58a4e.bb.sky.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:58:07 Well, I am using asdf for this, but it's how to split out the project is where I'm at with the confusion. I meanI could have a separate project (e.g. cl-bio-samtools), and maybe that's the way to goI just feel that it's importing a heck of a lot to get things working on larger projects, where a singular cl-bio import would help. 15:58:11 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.128.139] has joined #lisp 15:59:10 import? 15:59:18 Importing everything brings in a lot of unnecessary crap into the symbol table though, since much of it is unusedmaybe having it split out more is bette, heh. 15:59:34 via use-package or :use? 16:00:34 SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@75-138-73-64.dhcp.gwnt.ga.charter.com] has joined #lisp 16:00:36 :use is what I was thinking. So in the defpackage (:use :cl-bio :cl) 16:02:01 -!- ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 16:02:14 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:03:35 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:03:56 holycopralite [~polyglot@12.104.148.2] has joined #lisp 16:05:10 -!- Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:05:24 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:06:27 Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #lisp 16:07:18 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Client Quit] 16:07:36 -!- CrEddy [~coak@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:09:50 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:09:56 gffa [~gffa@5249FBAA.cm-4-2d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 16:10:13 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-148-6.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:10:26 -!- gffa [~gffa@5249FBAA.cm-4-2d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Changing host] 16:10:26 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 16:10:36 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 16:10:59 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-157-207.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:11:30 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-157-207.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:12:20 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.33.18.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:12:44 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-148-6.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:13:07 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.233] has joined #lisp 16:13:21 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:14:52 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-134-3-121.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 16:14:55 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 16:14:55 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-134-3-121.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Changing host] 16:14:55 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:15:27 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 16:15:41 -!- SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@75-138-73-64.dhcp.gwnt.ga.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:15:47 altsrid [~altsrid@remote.activestate.com] has joined #lisp 16:16:35 alms_ [~alms_@146-115-42-237.c3-0.bkl-ubr1.sbo-bkl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 16:16:57 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:16:59 -!- alms_ [~alms_@146-115-42-237.c3-0.bkl-ubr1.sbo-bkl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 16:18:16 -!- replore_ [~replore@ntkngw133234.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:19:48 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.178.1] has quit [Quit: Offline] 16:20:34 -!- BrokenCog [~danielj@adsl-065-081-078-141.sip.pns.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Changing server] 16:23:22 replore [~replore@ntkngw133234.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:24:00 -!- Amyn [~abennama@64.208.49.20] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:24:26 -!- am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.83] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:26:49 -!- nicdev_ [~user@static-72-74-85-37.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:27:04 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:27:28 -!- holycopralite [~polyglot@12.104.148.2] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:29:02 holycopralite [~polyglot@12.104.148.2] has joined #lisp 16:32:15 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 16:32:27 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-qdfqeypoxyyjmtva] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:34:19 Intensity [5slrovgLJf@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 16:34:27 SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 16:38:43 Mekanik [~vov@91.79.139.106] has joined #lisp 16:38:44 -!- moah [~gnu@dslb-092-073-066-073.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 16:40:43 holycopralite1 [~polyglot@12.104.148.2] has joined #lisp 16:40:43 -!- holycopralite [~polyglot@12.104.148.2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:40:58 nicdev_ [~user@static-72-74-85-37.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:43:22 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.233] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:43:28 -!- pdo [~pdo@217.33.254.141] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:43:43 jewel [~jewel@196-215-114-61.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:43:50 -!- Mekanik [~vov@91.79.139.106] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 16:47:12 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:49:00 BrokenCog [~danielj@adsl-065-081-078-141.sip.pns.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:11 -!- replore [~replore@ntkngw133234.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:50:58 markskilbeck [~user@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 16:51:41 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-190-239-43.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:53:05 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:43 ahinki [~chatzilla@AAmiens-551-1-30-209.w92-131.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:56:15 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-134-3-121.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 16:56:15 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-134-3-121.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Changing host] 16:56:15 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:57:45 another one for cltl3 or something: remhash returning two values like gethash, even if in reversed order to keep greater compatibility 16:58:46 acelent: you mean, you'd like it to be a sort of 'pophash'? 16:59:01 markskil` [~user@host81-132-125-61.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 16:59:48 *sykopomp* isn't sure 'pophash' gets the point across, but w/e. 17:00:37 -!- markskilbeck [~user@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:03:38 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:04:06 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 17:05:06 -!- dto1 is now known as dto 17:07:31 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.185] has joined #lisp 17:08:05 sykopomp: yes 17:08:22 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.185] has quit [Client Quit] 17:09:04 sykopomp: there could be both, if it really matters, keeping remhash as it is 17:09:05 sellout- [~Adium@63-253-67-243.ip.mcleodusa.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:53 acelent: (defun pophash (key hash-table) (multiple-value-prog1 (gethash key hash-table) (remhash key hash-table))) 17:10:01 acelent: look! You didn't even have to wait for cltl3. 17:10:16 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:10:38 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 17:11:01 sykopomp: :) i know, but you have to lookup the hash twice 17:11:16 acelent: maybe, maybe not. 17:11:39 pkhuong: true, an implementation can optimize access to the last entry 17:11:58 pkhuong: but you can't count on that 17:12:23 acelent: neither could you if pophash was natively supported. 17:12:53 pkhuong: why not, if it was specified to lookup once only? 17:13:01 s/was/were to be/ 17:13:05 acelent: how would that be observable? 17:13:18 But you're right that, in many implementations, it makes sense to expose the information. 17:14:13 pkhuong: ok you're right, but then you can't actually know that an implementation isn't using lists for everything (e.g. vectors, structures, etc) other than timing it 17:14:35 yup. 17:16:32 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:16:44 manuel_ [~manuel@p57921FDE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:33 well, i still have some faith that implementers would give it a best effort 17:24:28 -!- markskil` [~user@host81-132-125-61.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:26:48 for a sufficiently-smart implementer? 17:28:05 xcv [~xcv@dsl-225-28.hive.is] has joined #lisp 17:29:14 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:29:40 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-134-3-121.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 17:29:56 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-134-3-121.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Changing host] 17:29:56 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 17:30:18 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:35:09 Guthur [~Guthur@212.183.128.32] has joined #lisp 17:42:25 oGMo: pophash could be defined to specifically lookup only once, much like the setf macros (e.g. push, pop, etc) must only eval the subplace form(s) once and in a specific order 17:43:48 ... well, whatever... 17:44:59 acelent: multiple-evaluation of arguments is easily observable. 17:50:05 HG` [~HG@p5DC05C2A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:56 pkhuong: ok, i get the point :) let it to the implementer's choice. for those who care, they could optimize it. in fact, an implementation that has optimized access to the previously accessed entry could really be performant with gethash-remhash anyway 17:53:10 -!- xcv [~xcv@dsl-225-28.hive.is] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:55:36 heh 17:57:37 -!- manuel_ [~manuel@p57921FDE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: manuel_] 17:58:12 -!- RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@dyn-160-39-33-144.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: RomyEatsDrupal] 17:58:23 RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@dyn-160-39-33-144.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 18:00:14 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:01:06 barryfm [~barryfm@fl-71-2-131-32.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:04 CrEddy [~roisterin@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 18:02:13 c++ has it right with maps, where insert() accepts a previous unsuccessful find() result as search hint, so that "get or insert cached value" can be coded to effectively only do one search 18:03:01 -!- RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@dyn-160-39-33-144.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 261 seconds] 18:05:17 too much manual handling for a simple thing 18:06:44 oGMo: you don't have to use it that way if you don't care. 18:06:46 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:07:50 -!- mjs2600 [~user@user-0c999k2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:07:58 pkhuong: but it could be done without, especially since it's highly unlikely you can use a cached result between modifying operations 18:08:33 oGMo: insert threads in the mix and weep. 18:08:40 -!- gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:08:45 kslt1 [~karl.sier@netblock-208-127-156-153.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 18:08:46 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 18:08:47 pkhuong: been there ;/ 18:09:00 and try and debug the mess with gdb 18:11:18 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 18:14:27 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 18:17:08 -!- spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [Quit: spacefrogg] 18:20:38 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A3BF3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:22:54 -!- TDT [~TDT@5317-nat01.eng.uiowa.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:23:41 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-157-207.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:23:48 -!- wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-157-207.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:25:28 -!- benny [~benny@i577A2C0C.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:30:20 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-157-207.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:30:41 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-157-207.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:32:33 TDT [~TDT@dhcpw80ff9133.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 18:32:48 zyg [d572a6db@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.114.166.219] has joined #lisp 18:35:00 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:35:11 can you disable the result decoding in postmodern? 18:41:11 -!- wormwood [~wormwood@pdpc/supporter/student/wormwood] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:42:43 ok, I think I'm supposed to change *sql-readtable* 18:44:15 -!- bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:44:33 -!- hyoyoung [~morris@210.117.152.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:45:41 bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:21 hyoyoung [~morris@210.117.152.122] has joined #lisp 18:51:41 Xach: http://vimeo.com/29246417 made some fun explosions :) 18:53:46 -!- rme [rme@45CC2C80.80B03224.699BA7A6.IP] has quit [Quit: rme] 18:53:46 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.135.89] has quit [Quit: rme] 18:54:54 wormwood [~wormwood@pdpc/supporter/student/wormwood] has joined #lisp 18:55:17 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 18:57:01 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.128.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:57:45 ChibaPet [~mason@38.104.6.150] has joined #lisp 19:00:35 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 19:01:25 -!- hyoyoung [~morris@210.117.152.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:01:39 hyoyoung [~morris@210.117.152.122] has joined #lisp 19:01:52 -!- zyg [d572a6db@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.114.166.219] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:08:25 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 19:08:31 -!- BrokenCog [~danielj@adsl-065-081-078-141.sip.pns.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:10:00 gabnet [~gabnet@149.63.193.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:07 zerokarmaleft [zkl@morpheus.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:26 pnq [~nick@ACA26B3E.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 19:11:37 oudeis [~oudeis@2.54.254.131] has joined #lisp 19:11:40 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:13:21 dto: cool 19:14:04 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:14:36 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 19:16:03 -!- Joreji [~thomas@88-255.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:16:16 urandom__ [~user@p548A25C5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:50 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:20:02 -!- TDT [~TDT@dhcpw80ff9133.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Quit: TDT] 19:20:52 rwiker [~rwiker@187.80-202-32.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:22:10 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A25C5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:23:13 TDT [~TDT@dhcpw80ff9133.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 19:23:17 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 19:23:48 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:23:56 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@2.54.254.131] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:24:05 hello 19:24:07 one question 19:24:59 topo: what's up? 19:25:06 i would like to know how this function works 19:25:11 (defun encode-message (address &rest data) 19:25:30 what is suppose to be address and $rest and data? 19:25:50 topo: That is the syntax for defining how a CL function accepts a variable number of arguments. 19:26:06 yea i know 19:26:07 topo: every argument after the first, mandatory one is collected into a list bound to the variable DATA for the body of the function. 19:26:46 what i want to know is which kind of data should i write for calling that function 19:26:58 topo: That is pretty difficult to say from what you've shown so far. 19:27:07 topo: Is the function documented somewhere? 19:27:10 i want to send this message 19:27:15 no it is not doccumented 19:27:19 Who wrote it? 19:27:24 but i have the source 19:27:37 an implementation of the OSC (Open Sound Control) protocol 19:27:37 ;;; 19:27:37 ;;; copyright (C) 2004 FoAM vzw. 19:27:45 foam vzw 19:28:08 oh no 19:28:09 nik gaffney 19:28:29 -!- TDT [~TDT@dhcpw80ff9133.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Quit: TDT] 19:28:40 this is : http://fo.am/darcs/osc/osc.lisp 19:28:58 i want to send this messages: 19:28:59 s.sendMsg("/s_new", "default", n); 19:29:07 *Xach* doesn't know 19:29:32 cheezus [~Adium@76-10-183-155.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 19:31:07 <|3b|> judging by the example file in the same dir, (encode-message "/s_new" "default" n) 19:31:07 loderunner [~loderunne@adsl-074-229-197-048.sip.mco.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:10 the "/s_new" should be your address, and it looks like it builds the osc packet from a list of lisp types 19:31:57 Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 19:31:58 (encode-message "/fader1" 0.5) 19:32:16 looks like the lisp syntax would be simply (encode-message "/s_new" "default" n) 19:32:42 hopefully the package does more than this 19:32:56 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:33:06 well, it can decode messages, too :-) 19:33:28 and there's an example file included 19:33:46 rwiker: :P 19:33:56 any users of trivial-ldap here? 19:34:59 i get this: 19:34:59 * (encode-message "/s_new" "default" n) 19:35:00 #(47 115 95 110 101 119 0 0 44 115 105 0 100 101 102 97 117 108 116 0 0 0 0 7) 19:37:05 TDT [~TDT@5317-nat01.eng.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 19:37:39 but no sound 19:37:40 :( 19:38:09 <|3b|> you probably need to send that message somewhere 19:38:10 topo: that encodes the message. you have to send it to the appropriate device 19:38:22 topo: see the example file in the same directory 19:38:28 hey topo 19:38:39 in supercollider i send in this way 19:38:41 n = s.nextNodeID; 19:38:41 s.sendMsg("/s_new", "default", n); 19:38:46 i want to do the same from common lisp 19:38:55 hey wivlaro 19:39:21 s is suppose to be the sound server 19:39:45 looks like you want to send it as well as encode it 19:39:54 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA26B3E.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:40:09 whats the difference? 19:40:24 -!- zerokarmaleft [zkl@morpheus.net] has left #lisp 19:40:30 encode just changes it into those numbers, it doesn't do anything else, you want to send it to the server 19:41:07 i see 19:41:08 phax [~phax@5ade597a.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 19:41:08 -!- phax [~phax@5ade597a.bb.sky.com] has quit [Changing host] 19:41:08 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 19:41:47 did you make a connection to the server somewhere? 19:42:13 no 19:42:37 i dont know how to do it 19:42:39 :( 19:43:20 oh look there's an osc-write-to-stream in http://fo.am/darcs/osc/osc-examples.lisp 19:43:32 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-092-088.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 19:44:07 whats that 19:44:08 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 19:44:16 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@AAmiens-551-1-30-209.w92-131.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:44:19 what are you making? 19:44:27 benny [~benny@i577A3E2B.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:44:32 ok 19:44:42 there a programming language called supercollider 19:44:54 that is separated in 2 , language and sound server 19:45:09 you can control the sound server from osc messages from other programming languages 19:45:14 thats what i want to do 19:45:15 yeah i know supercollider, i remmeber from memescape ;-) 19:45:36 yes 19:45:40 do you know what port(s) supercollider uses? 19:45:50 -!- TDT [~TDT@5317-nat01.eng.uiowa.edu] has quit [Quit: TDT] 19:45:52 ummm 19:45:57 no but i can figure out 19:45:58 wait 19:46:02 mmmm... 6667? 19:47:33 actually it looks like 57110 or 57120 19:48:01 http://danielnouri.org/docs/SuperColliderHelp/Tutorials/Tutorial.html 19:48:23 i think you define the port 19:48:24 s = Server(\myServer, NetAddr("127.0.0.1", 58009)); 19:48:52 aha yes 19:49:07 ineiros_ [~itniemin@cs27065016.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:49:10 so you want to connect to that and then send messages to it 19:49:17 yes 19:49:26 i installed osc.lisp in my sbcl 19:49:31 k 19:49:53 and i want to send this messages from common lisp to the sound server 19:49:54 n = s.nextNodeID; 19:49:54 s.sendMsg("/s_new", "default", n); 19:49:58 to create a new synth 19:50:30 well, you'll need to create a socket connection, then send the message there 19:51:21 the function osc-reflector in osc-examples.lisp has sbcl code for setting up an udp connection... 19:51:53 i need to set up an udp connection? 19:52:03 s.sendMsg("/s_new", "default", x = s.nextNodeID, 1, 1); 19:52:21 what do you think s refers to, in that example? 19:52:34 s is the server 19:52:41 supercollider server 19:53:07 Does CL automatically optimize (cache) repeated calls of non-destructive functions? 19:53:17 everytime you boot a server it automatically stores in the "s"variable 19:53:18 s = Server(\myServer, NetAddr("127.0.0.1", 58009)); 19:54:00 loderunner: no. 19:54:14 rbuck [~rbuck@mobile-198-228-198-178.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:14 yeah i'd start with the osc-reflector and remove the 'in' stuff, remove the loop and work from there 19:54:17 s variable only exists in the client 19:54:26 it basically encapsulates the address of the server where the messages are sent to. 19:55:03 pkhuong: is there a standard or easy way to do that, then? 19:55:44 loderunner: yes, it's called memoization 19:56:31 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:56:49 topo: yeah so do something like (let ((s (make-udp-socket))) (socket-connect s #(127 0 0 1) 58009) (unwind-protect (progn .....stuff using s......) (when s (socket-close s)))) 19:57:23 Amyn [~abennama@cac94-2-87-91-21-215.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 19:57:28 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:57:29 I think I've heard of that. Is there a standard CL implementation or is it trivial to do on one's own? 19:57:33 topo: where the stuff you want to do is something like (osc-write-to-stream s "/s_new" "default" nil) 19:58:02 (I knew virtually nothing about Lisp until about 20 hours ago, bear with me. Just experienced programming equivalent of Kensho.) 19:58:04 loderunner: there is a "memoize" library but I don't know anything about it beyond the name. 19:58:15 Xach: another library regularly downloaded from QL is soon supported by ABCL: Closure-HTML 19:58:16 neat 19:58:16 Seems like a reasonable thing to try. 19:58:19 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 19:58:21 ehu: nice 19:58:25 yup. tough one. 19:58:40 that is, found out a lot of things from the CLHS I didn't know yet. 19:58:41 what roadblocks were cleared to make it work? 19:59:14 wivlaro: what do you mean with "(progn .....stuff using s......) " ? 19:59:49 Next question, why wouldn't CL automatically apply that optimization in the case of non-destructive functions? It was my understanding that CL had pretty good optimization these days. 19:59:50 well you put in there whatever you want to do with this socket connection 19:59:58 what you want to do is send messages to it 20:00:14 Because of thread safety, maybe? 20:00:16 Xach: currently, ABCL's fasl format doesn't handle circular structures. 20:00:18 so use the osc-write-to-stream function that they provided 20:00:35 Xach: closure-html is the first to serialize circular structures as far as I can tell. 20:00:42 ehu: interesting 20:00:44 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 20:01:04 -!- barryfm [~barryfm@fl-71-2-131-32.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has left #lisp 20:01:06 What I'm not yet solving -- but saw that I need to -- is that MAKE-LOAD-FORM can only be called once for every object being serialized. 20:01:09 loderunner: because some functions will be faster to execute than lookup a previously computed result 20:01:16 what you means is replace "....stuff using s...." with this? (osc-write-to-stream s "/s_new" "default" nil)? 20:01:45 rwiker: so just benchmark both and decide at compile time? 20:02:13 -!- nha [~prefect@5-74.104-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:02:20 like this? 20:02:20 (let ((s (make-udp-socket))) (socket-connect s #(127 0 0 1) 58009) (unwind-protect (progn (osc-write-to-stream s "/s_new" "default" nil)) (when s (socket-close s)))) 20:02:29 loderunner: or just use memoization when you need the extra performance, and can afford the associated increased memory usage 20:02:42 rather, I need to solve it for CLHS compliance, but not for closure-html to work 20:02:46 loderunner: (defun foo (x) (if (goldbach x) [fast] [slow])). If you want memoisation, you know it. 20:03:00 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-114-61.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:03:01 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:03:47 -!- rbuck [~rbuck@mobile-198-228-198-178.mycingular.net] has quit [Quit: rbuck gone away...] 20:04:00 I'll need to re-think the entire way fasls are being created to support the case of 'call MAKE-LOAD-FORM only once' 20:04:14 basically, it means the calls must be tied to a "FASL context" 20:04:25 which our serialization currently isn't. 20:04:52 ehu: it's per-form instead? 20:04:55 pkhuong: maybe true generally, not necessarily in regards to my project (lots of on the fly functional composition, tagging some for later reuse) but I think I can hack it. 20:05:05 pkhuong: yup. 20:05:23 pkhuong: which isn't good enough, but works in general. 20:05:36 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:06:34 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-092-088.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:06:48 http://pastebin.com/NdQS0RTn 20:07:31 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:07:50 SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@199.sub-75-253-192.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 20:07:51 topo: exactly 20:08:15 i get errors 20:09:11 pkhuong: do you know how SBCL handles this? I mean, does it have a global FASL object table? 20:09:17 how does that table get filled? 20:09:44 -!- jasom [~aidenn@ip98-182-25-247.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:09:49 ehu: there's a special per compilation context. 20:10:02 thinking of DEFCLASS followed by DEFMETHOD MAKE-LOAD-FORM / some other DEFMETHODs, I can't imagine the table can be initialized at the start of the fasl. 20:10:32 but if it's not, you need some way to put things into it, or you need a different way to share structure. 20:12:13 -!- rwiker [~rwiker@187.80-202-32.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 20:12:20 hmm. yea. I need to figure out how to put such a context over the existing infrastructure in abcl. 20:12:25 rwiker [~rwiker@187.80-202-32.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:12:31 -!- SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@199.sub-75-253-192.myvzw.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:15:06 ok its getting better 20:15:51 now it says that the data is not type stream 20:15:53 look 20:15:53 http://pastebin.com/fUxhEXdW 20:16:12 have you looked at the example code? 20:16:29 thats not a example 20:16:43 http://fo.am/darcs/osc/osc-examples.lisp 20:16:54 yes i looked that 20:17:51 I want to learn lisp with the gigamonkey 'Introduction to common lisp' e-book. I am on fedora 14. How do I best set up a lisp environment? 20:17:54 well, you need a call to socket-make-stream there 20:18:31 whats a stream? 20:18:44 a common lisp environment, that is. 20:19:29 ch077179: i like sbcl, emacs, and slime. i get sbcl from www.sbcl.org. 20:20:11 Vivitron [~user@pool-108-7-56-243.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:15 what is quicklisp, and how is it related to lisp? 20:22:04 -!- milanj [~milanj_@82.117.199.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:22:55 quicklisp is something like a "Common Lisp Package Manager" 20:23:21 it has a register of good-quality lisp libraries, and dependencies between them 20:23:53 ok 20:24:30 -!- HG` [~HG@p5DC05C2A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: HG`] 20:24:49 so Xach you recommend installing emacs, sbcl and slime? 20:25:04 do you know a fedora package that provides all these? 20:25:17 ch077179: on windows or on *nix? 20:25:23 ah. 20:25:25 sorry, 20:25:28 linux 20:25:58 I'd advise you to use the standard emacs of your fedora 20:26:09 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:26:22 then download/build your own sbcl and use QL to download/install SLIME 20:26:29 ehu, why not vim? 20:26:53 vim does not work with slime 20:27:02 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 20:27:28 -!- ChibaPet [~mason@38.104.6.150] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:28:29 -!- nerooth [~oskar@c83-250-221-98.bredband.comhem.se] has left #lisp 20:29:19 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@GGMD.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:31:22 ChibaPet [~mason@38.104.6.150] has joined #lisp 20:32:34 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-092-088.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 20:33:06 topo: take a look at http://pastebin.com/AEAQtwXM 20:33:38 that's too bad, I'll have to learn emacs then.. 20:33:39 ok 20:33:48 but thanks all 20:34:14 ch077179: alternatively, you could download Lispworks Personal 20:34:43 setheus_ [~setheus@cpe-72-190-66-192.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:35:03 rwiker, not bc I have something against emacs. It's just that I like vim and I am already used to it (commands and so on) 20:35:04 --- which uses (mostly) Emacs key bindings, but it might be easier to get started with 20:35:08 -!- skanderb3g is now known as Jarndyce 20:35:40 rwiker: is that suppose to generate a sound? 20:35:50 it seems it work but i dont get any sound 20:36:46 You can edit lisp with vim. Slime is always recommended because of how awesome it is. 20:37:35 oh the port number is not the same! 20:37:40 topo: that code only does the "/s_new" operation, which I think you said creates a new synthesizer 20:37:55 yes, i think i know which is the problem 20:38:13 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-76-183-61-224.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:38:24 peterhil` [~peterhil@GGYCMXLVII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 20:40:23 oh yes 20:40:29 now its receiven in the server 20:40:38 but it doesnt produce sound yet 20:40:48 i get this in my supercollider window: 20:40:50 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.106] has joined #lisp 20:40:50 FAILURE /s_new duplicate node ID 20:40:50 FAILURE /s_new duplicate node ID 20:42:38 rwiker you forgot about this command 20:42:39 nextNodeID; 20:42:57 the message is in this way: 20:42:58 s.sendMsg("/s_new", "default", x = s.nextNodeID, 1, 1); 20:43:13 I forgot nothing - I just fixed some problems with your code :-) 20:44:02 topo: is that lisp? 20:44:14 yes 20:44:39 im comunicating lisp with supercollider 20:45:38 which would be this sintaxis in lisp? 20:45:38 s.nextNodeID; 20:45:55 (s nextNodeID) ? 20:46:05 ch077179: I think lispbox is still available...though it may be somewhat out of date. http://common-lisp.net/project/lispbox/ 20:50:52 topo: is there any particular reason that you want to use Lisp for this? 20:50:54 -!- cheezus [~Adium@76-10-183-155.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:50:59 yes 20:51:12 rwiker its almost done 20:51:19 i need to do this: 20:51:19 s.sendMsg("/s_new", "default", x = s.nextNodeID, 1, 1); 20:51:30 but im doing this: 20:51:37 s.sendMsg("/s_new", "default", nil); 20:51:55 how can i convert s.nextNodeID in lisp syntaxis? 20:51:55 there's *nothing* in the osc library that gives you the nextNodeID functionality 20:51:58 oh, still the same guy from the afternoon :/ 20:52:05 thats functionality of the server 20:52:09 of the supercollider server 20:52:18 s.nextNoideID 20:52:40 each time you create a sound , it creates a node in the sound server 20:52:41 no, it's not? it's functionality in a proxy object that encapsulates communication with the server 20:53:16 thats part of the server 20:53:22 the sound server understand that 20:53:30 but how can i send that from common lisp? 20:54:09 in the code you posted you have: 20:54:10 (osc-write-to-stream stream "/s_new" "default" nil)) 20:54:26 nil maybe needs to be s.nextNodeID? 20:54:27 that was taken directly from the code you posted earlier... 20:54:36 yes i know 20:55:00 the code i posted earlies was suppose to do this: s.sendMsg("/s_new", "default", n); 20:55:13 and i think that is working fine 20:55:16 lanthan [~ze@p54B7BA83.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:17 but i really need this: 20:55:23 s.sendMsg("/s_new", "default", x = s.nextNodeID, 1, 1); 20:56:02 so my question should be : how can i send s.nextNodeID in common lisp? 20:56:03 try (osc-write-to-stream stream "/s_new" "default" 5 1 1) 20:56:06 -!- lanthan [~ze@p54B7BA83.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:56:19 why 5? 20:56:25 if that still gives the "duplicate node ID", try 6 20:57:52 SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@180.sub-75-203-245.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 20:58:45 worked!!! 20:59:03 rwiker worked!!! 20:59:11 thanks! 20:59:17 lanthan [~ze@p54B7BA83.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:54 well , the reason im using common lisp is because i can have some code that generates other programs 21:00:33 so im visualizing the codes common lisp are generating in real time as architectural shapes 21:00:44 and also i want to sonyfy that data 21:01:39 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 21:01:48 -!- ChibaPet [~mason@38.104.6.150] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:02:22 -!- sellout- [~Adium@63-253-67-243.ip.mcleodusa.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:02:35 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:02:37 : ] 21:02:38 jasom [~aidenn@ip98-182-25-247.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:23 -!- SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@180.sub-75-203-245.myvzw.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:09:34 -!- rwiker [~rwiker@187.80-202-32.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:11:14 -!- gabnet [~gabnet@149.63.193.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 21:14:28 -!- claint [~user@88.242.2.117] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:14:49 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:16:47 Looking for a Clozure CL user to test modification to ASDF's RUN-SHELL-COMMAND.... 21:18:45 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 21:19:13 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.110.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:22:39 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 21:24:24 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-092-088.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:24:56 I use ccl 21:27:14 -!- dlowe [dlowe@nat/google/x-nuawltmodqkakdnv] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:29:51 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Quit: juniorroy] 21:35:11 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:35:25 adam33147 [~user@ool-44c0fe65.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:24 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: zz?] 21:44:09 What's the state of concurrency options for CL? I'm not necessary looking for something on the level of what Erlang (and now Clojure) does. locking in our setup should be a cinch, so shared-everything would be fine. 21:44:53 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:45:08 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:45:18 loderunner: most implementations have native OS threads, and they offer various levels of useful primitives to go along with them. and there are some libraries to provide other styles of concurrency stuff, e.g. chanl. 21:47:11 -!- topo [~topo@f053035165.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:47:16 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:04 topo [~topo@f053035165.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:48:18 neat, thanks. just trying to finalize my language choice before I order like $70 worth of used books from amazon. 21:50:26 -!- dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:51:19 TDT [~TDT@5317-nat01.eng.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 21:51:21 loderunner: you can start experimenting with stuff available online (like PCL, Gentle Introduction, Successful Lisp, etc.) 21:51:37 took me three years and hundreds of hours spent reading about OOP, pure functional, AOP, etc. before I found out what "Lisp Macro" actually meant 21:51:59 though if Concurrency and high-availability is the main focus I'd go with Erlang :) 21:52:06 I'm feeling rather annoyed at the entire industry right now. What have people been doing these past 5 decades? 21:52:18 Erlang gives me headaches 21:52:34 I need numerical performance more than availability. Sounds like CL with static typing would beat Erlang 21:53:02 well, Erlang isn't designed for it, though it gets better with HiPE 21:54:57 Fade: Do you by any chance have ASDF checked out from git? 21:55:31 I would give Erlang more of a chance if it didn't enforce strictly functional programming. I'm aware of the advantages, but they're mostly inapplicable for what I'm doing, which has a highly procedural core 21:56:14 Fade: I'm trying to fix a problem in ASDF:RUN-SHELL-COMMAND that has it fail if the shell command has embedded quotes. 21:58:46 -!- holycopralite1 [~polyglot@12.104.148.2] has left #lisp 22:00:52 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:00:56 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-49-101.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 22:00:56 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:00:56 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 22:00:56 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-49-101.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Changing host] 22:00:56 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 22:01:43 -!- TDT [~TDT@5317-nat01.eng.uiowa.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:02:27 I use quicklisp, so I get asdf from there. 22:03:38 nicdev [~nicdev@c-98-217-188-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:57 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:14:33 holycopralite1 [~polyglot@12.104.148.2] has joined #lisp 22:15:43 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-43568cfa.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:17:55 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@212.183.128.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:19:37 -!- Jarndyce is now known as i_zim_esq 22:26:11 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:26:57 Fade: Ah. I need someone who can pull an experimental branch from the ASDF git repo, install it in CCL (this isa temporary operation, which won't break your CCL), and run one of the tests. 22:27:27 I have been trying to use CCL:RUN-PROGRAM and it doesn't seem to behave as documented (or I have borked my CCL). 22:28:14 deke [~deke@fl-71-54-189-181.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 22:29:24 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-157-207.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:29:29 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-157-207.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:29:57 marsell [~marsell@120.18.113.95] has joined #lisp 22:30:13 Alternatively, I could simply give you a code snippet to test... 22:30:24 probably much easier for now... 22:34:26 -!- cyrillos_ [~cyrill@188.134.60.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:38:37 -!- ineiros [~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:40:12 ineiros [~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 22:46:03 gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-39-5-4.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:33 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-220-49.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:48:09 milanj [~milanj_@cable-178-148-21-218.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 22:48:40 -!- milanj [~milanj_@cable-178-148-21-218.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Client Quit] 22:49:06 tunes [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 22:50:08 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:50:12 -!- tunes is now known as Fare 22:51:10 -!- newcup [newcup@peruna.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:54:13 -!- foocraft [foocraft@ibawizard.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:55:35 Fade: Do you get a crash if you do (asdf:run-shell-command "echo \"foo\")")? 22:56:08 What's the rationale behind () being self-evaluating? 22:56:11 foocraft [foocraft@ibawizard.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:36 there are recent reports that run-shell-command is not all that portable. 22:56:41 'sec 22:56:53 at least, it doesn't deal properly with spaces and quotes. 22:57:09 xcvb-driver:run-program/read-output-string does better. 22:57:11 Ralith: what do you get when you read-from-string "()"? what is the result of eval'ing it? 22:57:38 acelent: try it yourself! 22:57:39 acelent: what? I'm asking what the rationale is, not whether it does. 22:57:42 Fare: Yes, I have been trying to fix it. It's a real nuisance to have to invoke the bloody shell --- requires additional quote-wrangling that is mind-boggling... 22:57:59 rpg: xcvb-driver does all that quote-wrangling for you 22:58:00 Ralith: well this is the rationale of it 22:58:01 rpg : it doesn't crash. 22:58:14 Fade: Excellent! 22:58:23 rpg: I've been wary of not trying to merge half of xcvb-driver into asdf. 22:58:27 Which ASDF and which CCL are you using.... 22:58:31 it returns 0 22:58:33 acelent: what is "this"? 22:58:42 OH, and CCL's run-program is especially broken on windows 22:58:49 (unless it's been fixed while I wasn't watching) 22:59:16 Ralith: that reading "()" returns nil. nil is a constant whose value is nil 22:59:48 acelent: that has nothing to do with my question. 22:59:54 I take it you don't know? 23:00:03 -!- Hajovonta [HajoVonta@54037699.catv.pool.telekom.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:00:10 HajoVonta [HajoVonta@54037699.catv.pool.telekom.hu] has joined #lisp 23:00:12 Ralith: ok 23:02:54 Fare, Fade: I am confused because if I do the above on ASDF on my CCL, then it works. If I load asdf from git, it doesn't work. But I haven't changed the clozure code... 23:03:22 which CCL on which OS ? 23:03:33 and which ASDF? 23:04:21 Clozure Common Lisp Version 1.8-dev-r14990M-trunk on an x86_64 machine running Ubuntu's beta release. 23:06:19 asdf 2.015.3 23:06:23 Fare: I'm using CCL 1.6 still, ASDF 2.017 is the version in CCL, and mine was the asdf-run-shell-command branch. 23:06:40 -!- deke [~deke@fl-71-54-189-181.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:07:03 -!- HajoVonta [HajoVonta@54037699.catv.pool.telekom.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:07:26 deke [~deke@fl-71-54-189-181.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:38 er, not. asdf 2.017 23:07:46 Somehow, after loading the new ASDF, I am no longer getting exit codes out of R-S-C on Clozure. I must run -- dinner getting ruined. 23:07:47 I have a few too many repls 23:07:48 I haven't looked at that branch. What does it do? 23:07:55 SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@77.sub-75-204-160.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 23:08:08 Fare: It fixes the R-S-C on ACL, where nested quotes caused it to blow up. 23:08:14 codelurker [~codelurke@c-98-227-187-219.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:08:58 Ralith: would you actually prefer that () not be self-evaluating? 23:09:10 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey 23:09:15 looks like it touches allegro support only 23:09:25 gigamonkey: it could call the function named NIL! 23:09:48 antifuchs: nononono that'd be (NIL) ;-) 23:09:53 antifuchs: or it could expand to nil's symbol-macro 23:09:58 which could be an alias for (constantly nil), for maximal logical consistency (: 23:10:04 gigamonkey: I'm not sure. It's not immediately obvious to me what use it is, beyond being a slightly more concise way of saying (list) 23:10:04 () would call the equivalent of ((values)) Or something. 23:10:12 It also adds a proposed test, which almost certainly doesn't work on Windows, and seems to need further work.... 23:10:18 gigamonkey: but (car ()) is the same as (car (nil)) (-: 23:10:29 antifuchs: good point. 23:10:39 My original intention to simply export *verbose-out* led me down a rabbit-hole... 23:10:47 HajoVonta [HajoVonta@54037699.catv.pool.telekom.hu] has joined #lisp 23:10:54 Might be back later, but must go now. Cheers! 23:11:05 what is really needed is the portability xcvb-driver:run-program/process-output-stream but that probably isn't fit for asdf 23:11:14 Ralith: there was a lot of discussion on the common lisp mailing lists, lo these many decades ago about () and NIL and truth and falsity. 23:11:25 I'm sure it was covered in there somewhere. At great agonizing length. 23:12:46 I suppose it's not one of those things for which there's a generally agreed upon good reason, then. 23:13:34 Well, I can't recall whether there was ever anyone agitating for specifically making () not be syntax for the empty list. 23:13:46 -!- HajoVonta [HajoVonta@54037699.catv.pool.telekom.hu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:13:47 -!- loderunner [~loderunne@adsl-074-229-197-048.sip.mco.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:13:53 HajoVonta [HajoVonta@54037699.catv.pool.telekom.hu] has joined #lisp 23:13:54 There was a lot of discussion of whether the empty list and NIL should be the same thing and whether either or both should be false. 23:15:00 It may just be that () evaluating to '() is just a historical relic of the earliest Lisps that nobody cared to change. 23:16:16 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-110-130.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:16:36 MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-109-056-164.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:16:51 -!- HajoVonta [HajoVonta@54037699.catv.pool.telekom.hu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:16:58 HajoVonta [HajoVonta@54037699.catv.pool.telekom.hu] has joined #lisp 23:17:41 Certainly if pre-Common Lisps allowed () as syntax meaning '(), the Common Lisp effort would have been loath to gratuitously break existing code. 23:17:48 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-39-5-4.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:17:48 () being nil is highly useful 23:19:57 -!- HajoVonta [HajoVonta@54037699.catv.pool.telekom.hu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:20:05 HajoVonta [HajoVonta@54037699.catv.pool.telekom.hu] has joined #lisp 23:20:42 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-39-5-4.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:46 oGMo: what for? 23:24:38 -!- HajoVonta [HajoVonta@54037699.catv.pool.telekom.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:25:01 Ralith: eliminating special cases 23:25:20 such as? 23:25:21 HajoVonta [HajoVonta@54037699.catv.pool.telekom.hu] has joined #lisp 23:25:33 *Fade* steps away for dinner. 23:25:53 unless the point was simply "()" being "the empty list" or not having to quote it 23:26:06 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:26:06 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 23:26:06 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 23:26:20 Ralith: list operations work on nil 23:27:18 oGMo: mainly I'm interested in why it doesn't have to be quoted. 23:27:50 I'm vaguely familiar with whole the nil-vs-false-vs-empty-list debate. 23:27:51 oGMo: () would be useful as *an* empty list instead of *the* empty list, so it could be a manipulatable object (e.g. nconcing to it, etc.) 23:27:51 Ralith: then what gigamonkey said, in that context ;) 23:27:56 kk 23:28:14 Ralith: it's really because of the equivalente of the empty list and nil 23:28:16 acelent: irrelevant in practice 23:28:24 acelent: I'm not sure *any* empty lists are side-affectable 23:28:33 without allocating a new list, that is 23:28:54 oGMo: why? 23:29:01 and if some-empty-list is not-EQ nil, life would be more complicated 23:29:15 acelent: if you know C, think of it like having (void*)0 be *a* null pointer instead of *the* null pointer. 23:29:35 -!- HajoVonta [HajoVonta@54037699.catv.pool.telekom.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:29:36 -!- codelurker [~codelurke@c-98-227-187-219.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 23:29:47 acelent: because it already works as-is 23:29:58 -!- holycopralite1 [~polyglot@12.104.148.2] has left #lisp 23:30:04 Ralith: bad comparison. imagine a list structure that points to the first and last elements of a doubly-linked object pointing structure 23:30:18 HajoVonta [HajoVonta@54037699.catv.pool.telekom.hu] has joined #lisp 23:30:28 what? 23:30:32 oGMo: only and strictly for that 23:31:07 Ralith: you're telling me a null pointer in C could mean the empty list as well as nil in lisp does 23:31:23 that's not at all what I said. 23:31:54 Ralith: however, having a struct list and a struct list_node with a next_node pointer, prev_node pointer and (possibly a union) some other slot is much more useful 23:32:27 Ralith: true, i must get some sleep 23:32:42 -!- HajoVonta [HajoVonta@54037699.catv.pool.telekom.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:32:49 HajoVonta [HajoVonta@54037699.catv.pool.telekom.hu] has joined #lisp 23:37:23 -!- HajoVonta [HajoVonta@54037699.catv.pool.telekom.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:37:24 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:37:28 carlo_au [~carlo@ppp59-167-11-161.lns1.syd6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:51 HajoVonta [HajoVonta@54037699.catv.pool.telekom.hu] has joined #lisp 23:38:29 marsell_ [~marsell@120.22.2.124] has joined #lisp 23:38:33 -!- marsell [~marsell@120.18.113.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:38:34 -!- marsell_ is now known as marsell 23:44:49 urandom__ [~user@p548A4D9A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:45:03 hello 23:45:06 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.128.139] has joined #lisp 23:45:06 how can i do in lisp this? 23:45:07 if (time % 300 ) { 23:45:08 create_synth(); 23:45:08 } 23:46:20 topo: (if (/= 0 (mod time 300)) (create-synth))? 23:46:35 ok 23:48:23 topo: Was that really an informative answer? 23:49:17 -!- SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@77.sub-75-204-160.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:49:41 SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@22.sub-75-225-230.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 23:54:35 Okay Lispers who know everything: is it "one's place, ten's place, etc.", "ones place, tens place, etc.", or "ones' place, tens' place, etc." 23:54:45 (Talking about arithmetic.) 23:55:05 Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.199.130] has joined #lisp 23:59:04 -!- altsrid [~altsrid@remote.activestate.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.]