00:03:09 rtoym [~chatzilla@c-67-180-54-112.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:04:20 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:05:47 -!- holycopralite [~polyglot@12.104.148.2] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:11:40 nicdev [~nicdev@c-98-217-188-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:11:45 -!- manuel_ [~manuel_@pD9FDEA4F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: manuel_] 00:16:12 kpreid_ [~kpreid@128.153.215.226] has joined #lisp 00:18:13 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:18:13 -!- kpreid_ is now known as kpreid 00:18:15 SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@205.sub-70-202-237.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 00:21:20 -!- coyo [~kvirc@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Quit: Changing server...] 00:21:58 hba [~hba@189.130.170.51] has joined #lisp 00:23:13 zmv [~daniel@c9533508.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 00:24:11 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 00:24:34 ISF [~ivan@201.82.134.98] has joined #lisp 00:24:42 -!- Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:30:14 vishwas [~vishwas@14.194.192.134] has joined #lisp 00:30:46 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:34:19 Deathaholic [~Mococa@187.58.13.91] has joined #lisp 00:34:28 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.58.13.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:40:32 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:41:14 DataLinkDKT [~AndChat@120.158.37.215] has joined #lisp 00:41:28 -!- Deathaholic [~Mococa@187.58.13.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:41:34 -!- vishwas [~vishwas@14.194.192.134] has left #lisp 00:42:50 -!- DataLinkDKT [~AndChat@120.158.37.215] has quit [Client Quit] 00:53:20 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-154-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:53:53 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 00:54:57 -!- am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.83] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:55:41 -!- alvis [~alvis@tx-71-2-122-27.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:56:29 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-18-2-150.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:58:23 sabalaba [~sabalaba_@adsl-99-150-157-117.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:11 -!- pcavs [~Adium@63.139.127.6] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:02:30 Deathaholic [~Mococa@187.58.13.91] has joined #lisp 01:04:13 pcavs [~Adium@63.139.127.6] has joined #lisp 01:10:01 Daev [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-185.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:10:55 alvis [~alvis@tx-71-2-122-27.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 01:14:03 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA288EE.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:21:38 -!- hba [~hba@189.130.170.51] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:24:43 -!- SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@205.sub-70-202-237.myvzw.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:25:10 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:29:19 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:29:21 syrinx__ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 01:29:56 -!- syrinx__ is now known as syrinx_ 01:31:52 tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:52 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@219.136.215.175] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:33:03 -!- SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:33:42 -!- H4ns [~user@p4FFC8958.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:34:33 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:37:03 Demosthenes [~demo@wsip-70-184-1-10.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:37:56 has anyone been logging this channel for the past 28 or so hours? I was connected via mobile phone and there's a chance I was using roaming by mistake. would appreciate if someone could send me the logs. doesn't have to be full logs (thought it's ok if they are), I just need my join/quit messages so I can check my IPs and the time I spent on each one 01:38:02 I was either kennyd or kennyd_ 01:38:15 -!- tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:38:56 kennyd: http://rotty.yi.org/irclogs/freenode/%23lisp/ might help. 01:39:51 thanks but unfortunately the logs don't include join and quit messages 01:40:25 They do here... 01:40:43 *fds* looks again. 01:40:56 http://www.cliki.net/IRC links two logs. 01:42:45 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:44:17 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba_@adsl-99-150-157-117.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:45:14 lolsuper_ [~super_@pool-173-65-194-148.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:14 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@pool-173-65-194-148.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 01:45:14 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 01:48:21 thanks the first one has join and quit messages as well 01:48:52 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A5449.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:48:59 gaidal [~gaidal@219.136.215.175] has joined #lisp 01:54:57 ^ThE_UniX_GuY^ [~bsdboy@ggn.ixigo.net] has joined #lisp 01:55:45 dmiles [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-50-127.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 01:56:13 maxm- [~user@p84-72.acedsl.com] has joined #lisp 01:56:17 srolls` [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:20 pjb` [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 01:56:25 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 01:56:34 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:56:36 rme_ [~rme@50.43.135.89] has joined #lisp 01:57:25 bigjust- [~bigjust@justin.caratzas.org] 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[~TheNegati@client-66-116-3-52.consolidated.net] has joined #lisp 04:55:13 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:56:17 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 04:57:03 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 05:10:06 -!- mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:10:18 mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has joined #lisp 05:10:38 benny [~benny@i577A78C4.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 05:12:15 Is there any predicate that that returns T for 1 and NIL for 0? 05:13:09 So something like (truep (random 1)) 05:13:26 what would it return for 2? -2? 05:13:27 zerop? 05:13:37 plusp? 05:13:42 use the log 05:13:51 oh joshe, yes obviously obviously 05:14:11 (complement zerop) or plusp would work fine 05:15:01 better use CL:INTEGER-LENGTH 05:15:19 Sorry, that should've been: (random 2) 05:15:39 mon_key: CL:INTEGER-LENGTH? 05:15:41 What for 05:17:49 Iceland_jack: nm I need to sleep :) 05:18:08 make that both of us :) 05:18:30 although it does have this fun property (integer-length -1) => 0 05:19:22 Ah 05:19:43 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 05:19:54 I'm looking at the CLHS page now, fairly interesting 05:22:11 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:23:16 -!- lusory [~bart@bb219-74-102-119.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:28:39 lusory [~bart@bb219-75-123-46.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 05:32:28 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-38-158-245.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:40:13 -!- TheNegativeOne [~TheNegati@client-66-116-3-52.consolidated.net] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 05:41:41 -!- srolls` [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:42:13 -!- manjappa [~manjappa@122.167.12.64] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:44:48 -!- 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optikalmouse [~user@bas1-toronto07-1176122586.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 06:35:12 how do I get IMAGO to write an image to stdout or to a string? 06:36:11 -!- pcavs [~Adium@c-65-96-169-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:36:51 or should I use some other image manipulation library? I need something that lets me manipulate pixel colours... 06:38:42 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:38:43 -!- waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-5d8713b6.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:40:00 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 06:44:22 sacho [~sacho@87-126-6-192.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 06:45:42 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:45:49 -!- replore_ [~replore@ntkngw133234.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:45:59 -!- MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-185.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:51:12 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:51:59 fantazo_ [~fantazo@91-115-170-66.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 06:54:08 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-165-104.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 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Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:10:36 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 09:19:51 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-149-186-129.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:23:43 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.14.46] has left #lisp 09:25:34 wolfpython [~wolf@114.222.95.86] has joined #lisp 09:30:15 dec [~c@123.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 09:33:57 i am new to lisp and want to explore it and learn to use it. i do a lot of network programming and would like to have that in lisp as well. i fiddle a little bit with slime right now. but normally i dont use emacs as editor. also i wonder if there is a way to just run a lisp program from the command line. anyway, i guess i will find my way. but hints and directions are apreciated. specifically, i am shure that at some point i would like to some 09:34:43 dec: System dependent. 09:36:15 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:36:20 ultimately i would like to make (or use if it exists already) a multi-protocol non-blocking (e.g. epoll or select loop) library like pythons twisted. lets say i will use linux, and wonder if i should look into sbcl or another. 09:36:38 Yes. You should look at sbcl or another. 09:36:59 sbcl has sys-call bindings on linux? 09:37:00 But perhaps you should look at the existing libraries. 09:37:13 It has a posix interface. 09:37:51 cool! thank you Z 09:39:22 any hints about wether lisp is good for event-driven callback protocol programming? 09:39:54 i guess "parsing" is another name for what i think about. 09:40:16 and i think lisp is good at it. so ill just continue to read and learn and experiment. thanks ; ) 09:48:03 dec: you might be interested in iolib 09:55:38 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:59:47 posix and iolib noted 10:01:16 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 10:03:05 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:04:46 -!- manjappa [~manjappa@122.167.12.64] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:05:05 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:05:25 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:09:43 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 10:13:23 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@chello212186106204.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:14:15 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl15-231-243.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 10:16:11 elfrosch [~Brnt@pD954CD7A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:19:33 -!- Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:24:11 -!- StrmSrfr [~user@208.72.159.205] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:24:16 StrmSrfr [~user@208.72.159.205] has joined #lisp 10:25:08 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 10:25:31 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 10:26:57 francogrex [~user@109.130.78.142] has joined #lisp 10:27:49 _6502_ [58959a57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.149.154.87] has joined #lisp 10:28:10 <_6502_> yo... why isn't "let" destructuring? 10:30:10 <_6502_> i mean something like ((let (( (x y) foo )) ...) begin equivalent to (let ((x (first foo)) (y (second foo))) ...), but evaluating foo only once 10:30:34 _6502_: it just isn't. 10:31:07 <_6502_> oh... ok, i thought there could have been be logical problems that i can't see 10:31:08 loop has destructuring but let doesn't 10:31:24 _6502_: i don't think so. 10:31:47 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 10:32:10 _6502_: If you want destructuring in a let-like form, see bind in metabang-bind. 10:32:15 there should be some kind of destructuring let somewhere... 10:35:07 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.78.142] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:35:58 -!- Pepe__ is now known as Pepe_ 10:40:29 <_6502_> reading the matabang-bind gave me an answer 10:40:48 <_6502_> the metabang-bind documentation i mean 10:41:14 <_6502_> the answer is that it doesn't take too much to arrive into a syntax madness 10:42:54 <_6502_> destructuring is however clearly useful for macro argument list 10:44:20 <_6502_> lunchtime... l8r 10:44:23 -!- _6502_ [58959a57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.149.154.87] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:45:20 killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 10:47:30 francogrex [~user@109.130.78.142] has joined #lisp 10:49:21 TeMPOraL [~user@cpc1-oxfd18-2-0-cust444.4-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:52:13 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:53:23 Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #lisp 10:54:08 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 10:54:47 MoALTz [~no@host-92-18-2-150.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 10:56:30 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 10:57:58 -!- ngz [~user@80.105.193.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:58:11 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.215.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:58:29 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.168] has joined #lisp 10:58:44 urandom__ [~user@p548A2147.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:03:26 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:06:54 replore [~replore@g1-223-25-144-124.bmobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:07:34 -!- replore [~replore@g1-223-25-144-124.bmobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:09:51 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.78.142] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:12:48 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-122-110.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:14:27 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has joined #lisp 11:19:55 ngz [~user@80.105.193.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 11:20:24 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-122-110.wbs.co.za] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 11:21:48 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:24:30 -!- wolfpython [~wolf@114.222.95.86] has quit [Quit: ] 11:25:08 wolfpython [~wolf@114.222.95.86] has joined #lisp 11:26:52 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-122-110.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:26:54 is there a way to use a string stream with WITH-OPEN-FILE? 11:27:54 optikalmouse: what aspect of w-o-f are you looking for? 11:28:15 <|3b|> did you want with-open-stream instead? 11:28:32 I'm using someone else's function and it passes a filespec to with-open-file 11:28:41 I don't want to re-write their code ;p 11:29:29 ah. no, i think you're out of luck in that case. 11:29:52 <|3b|> yeah, bug report + patch is probably the best strategy :) 11:31:06 <|3b|> (or write out a file i guess) 11:34:48 -!- kloeri_ is now known as kloeri 11:35:51 optikalmouse: Which platforms must you support? 11:36:39 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Quit: Bang.] 11:37:01 ... if you don't have the time to do things differently, you could always use a hacky solution, such as a FIFO pipe. 11:37:33 Then change things later. 11:37:56 As long as there is a "later". 11:37:58 :) 11:39:29 well that was fast, all that I had to do was wrap a few functions in another defun. 11:39:41 smallest patch ever ;p 11:40:41 _danb_ [~user@124-149-186-129.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:42:03 -!- manuel_ [~manuel@pD9FDEA4F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:42:48 manuel_ [~manuel@pD9FDEA4F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:43:52 H4ns [57bd7119@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.189.113.25] has joined #lisp 11:44:57 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 11:50:56 ..now it's complaining about the stream not being binary. 11:53:17 <|3b|> yeah, CL strings have characters, not bits 11:53:31 <|3b|> possibly you want a flexi-stream backed by a vector of unsigned-byte 8? 12:00:09 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 12:05:00 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 12:05:55 -!- Amyn [~abennama@cac94-2-87-91-21-215.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:09:19 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:09:59 c_arenz [~arenz@p5B2CBC52.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:15:15 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 12:17:53 -!- lundis [~lundis@dyn56-31.yok.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:20:02 -!- tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:22:06 -!- topeak [~topeak@123.114.125.210] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:24:18 -!- elfrosch [~Brnt@pD954CD7A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:28:57 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-122-110.wbs.co.za] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:29:23 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 12:29:33 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-122-110.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:30:29 -!- manuel_ [~manuel@pD9FDEA4F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: manuel_] 12:31:40 Mococa [~Mococa@187.58.13.91] has joined #lisp 12:48:44 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-154-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:52:35 -!- wormwood [~wormwood@pdpc/supporter/student/wormwood] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:56:30 -!- H4ns [57bd7119@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.189.113.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:57:46 lundis [~lundis@dyn56-31.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 12:57:53 Guthur [~Guthur@host86-148-28-198.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:59:11 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 13:02:56 setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:04:50 -!- optikalmouse [~user@bas1-toronto07-1176122586.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:06:16 wormwood [~wormwood@pdpc/supporter/student/wormwood] has joined #lisp 13:12:10 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 13:16:29 serichsen [~user@hmbg-5f76401c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:34 Hello! 13:20:17 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:28:20 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:31:27 -!- Salamander_ is now known as Salamander 13:32:46 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-170-119.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:32:49 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-170-119.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:34:01 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.165.178] has joined #lisp 13:40:28 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:43:41 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:45:20 borkman [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:06 katesmith [~katesmith@97-89-229-3.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 13:46:06 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@97-89-229-3.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 13:46:06 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 13:47:06 ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:47:13 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:50:16 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 13:52:31 (let ((°° 42)) (1+ °°)) 13:52:56 pnq [~nick@AC810A5E.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 14:01:13 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@cpc1-oxfd18-2-0-cust444.4-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:01:31 what is that? 14:01:49 TeMPOraL [~user@cpc1-oxfd18-2-0-cust444.4-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 14:01:52 borkman: try using flet instead 14:02:23 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:05:47 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 14:07:20 scombinator [~user@121.98.92.184] has joined #lisp 14:09:22 gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:40 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 14:12:53 Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 14:15:36 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.165.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:16:13 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:16:42 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-122-110.wbs.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:17:15 OliverUv [~gandhi@195.159.235.178] has joined #lisp 14:19:50 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@203.110.240.205] has joined #lisp 14:19:53 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@203.110.240.205] has quit [Changing host] 14:19:53 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 14:21:19 -!- m4dnificent is now known as madnificent 14:24:24 -!- pnq [~nick@AC810A5E.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:24:56 manuel_ [~manuel_@pD9FDEA4F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:25:53 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.58.13.91] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:26:43 phax [~phax@5e0814d2.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 14:26:43 -!- phax [~phax@5e0814d2.bb.sky.com] has quit [Changing host] 14:26:43 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 14:29:28 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.164.137] has joined #lisp 14:30:57 LiamH [~healy@pool-108-18-161-45.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:11 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:38:08 Is there any way to hook into hunchentoot's mainloop to get it to hit a callback when a stream becomes readable?? 14:39:39 <|3b|> doesn't HT just run a thread for each connection and block on reads? 14:40:31 Ralith: You can write a new taskmaster 14:41:47 SteveG [~Steve@c-71-195-234-222.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:42:23 or just subclass the threaded one and add a method on handle-incoming-connection 14:42:59 _danb_` [~user@124-149-186-129.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 14:42:59 I want to listen for data on a separate stream, not handle connections differently. 14:43:23 -!- catullus|zzZz is now known as irrumator 14:44:12 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-149-186-129.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:48:51 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@2.149.225.146.tmi.telenormobil.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:49:00 Ralith: What do you mean by "separate stream" ? 14:49:20 I mean not the one hunchentoot is already listening on. 14:49:52 hun 14:49:53 er 14:49:56 hum 14:50:01 I don't understand how hunchentoot is connected to that 14:50:05 hunchentoot just blocks on accept, doesn't it :/ 14:50:19 yes 14:50:23 well that's a PITA. 14:51:00 <|3b|> sykopomp, deepfire: https://github.com/3b/clws/tree/refactor is the clws branch with support for current browsers 14:51:16 clws? 14:51:23 <|3b|> websocket server 14:51:40 fantazo__ [~fantazo@178-191-168-66.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 14:51:45 |3b|: You have been chosen, what's is websocket? 14:51:51 \o/ 14:51:51 double is too! 14:52:12 drdo: websockets are like... sockets. But for web browsers. 14:52:21 <|3b|> yeah, that 14:52:24 So you can push data to the browser, instead of having to poll. 14:52:27 without dirty Comet hacks. 14:52:47 <|3b|> also binary data, without waiting for xhr2 14:52:48 aah, long polling :) 14:53:11 <|3b|> zorun: no, persistent bidirectional connection 14:53:24 sykopomp: websockets were introduced by HTML5, weren't they? 14:53:45 yes. 14:53:46 |3b|: long polling is one of the "dirty Comet hacks" to achieve this 14:54:02 -!- johs_ is now known as johs 14:54:03 zorun: they are also supported by Flash, so any browser with Flash support can use them. 14:54:23 sykopomp: so websockets are like, just some protocol between the web client and server to get a stream over http? 14:54:24 <|3b|> ie10 beta supposedly supports websockets even 14:54:28 sykopomp: oh, didn't know they supported this 14:54:32 drdo: correct. 14:54:45 <|3b|> drdo: sort of, it stops being http once it turns into websockets 14:55:06 -!- fantazo_ [~fantazo@91-115-170-66.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:55:20 drdo: the previous methods of achieving this (Comet and the like) really were stream over HTTP 14:55:27 quite dirty 14:55:27 <|3b|> (it uses the connection: upgrade thing to change protocols) 14:55:32 |3b|: but does it go in the same tcp/ip stream as the http ? 14:55:48 zorun: I have no idea what comet is 14:56:17 drdo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comet_(programming) 14:56:21 drdo: just a dumb buzzword! 14:56:24 :) 14:56:32 <|3b|> right, it opens an http connection, then switches protocols 14:56:54 sort of like the STARTTLS bussiness? 14:57:30 ISF [~ivan@201.82.134.98] has joined #lisp 14:57:36 <|3b|> theoretically it could have downloaded some html or images already, but clws can't run on same socket as web server at the moment 14:58:31 |3b|: eh. You can just put hunchentoot and clws behind a proxy anyway if you want to share ports, no? :) 14:58:40 <|3b|> mainly due to me not having an iolib webserver to hook it to, and tending to run my http behind nginx which can't proxy websockets anyway 14:58:50 <|3b|> sykopomp: possibly 14:59:27 nginx can't proxy websockets? :o 14:59:28 |3b|: that security thing with upgrade and proxies... does it matter when you trust your proxy? 15:00:15 <|3b|> the security stuff that caused ff and opera to disable websockets you mean? 15:01:19 manuel__ [~manuel@pD9FDEA4F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:52 <|3b|> that doesn't matter anymore since they worked around it in the protocol 15:01:53 there is another api that's easier to support than websockets 15:01:56 -!- Guest57595 is now known as xristos 15:02:02 but one way only, server->client 15:02:21 can't remember how it's called 15:02:55 <|3b|> the server event thing? 15:03:31 yep 15:03:36 server sent events 15:04:37 *|3b|* 's main use cases are games and slime, both need full duplex i think 15:05:00 you can use xmlhttprequest for client->server 15:05:19 i guess it depends on where the majority of the messaging lies 15:05:22 <|3b|> or i could just use ws, since i already wrote a server for it :p 15:05:39 (and clws can probably handle much more data) 15:06:12 kushal [~kdas@122.169.70.222] has joined #lisp 15:06:12 -!- kushal [~kdas@122.169.70.222] has quit [Changing host] 15:06:12 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 15:07:13 I wonder how long it will take before the hacks become so many and so fucked up so we get rid of this web thing 15:07:17 Mococa [~Mococa@187.58.13.91] has joined #lisp 15:07:19 I'm guessing never 15:08:30 <|3b|> sykopomp: were you looking for wss support? looks like it will be a hassle to implement efficiently, so for now probably best to use stud or stunnel or something 15:08:31 iolib dependency ouch 15:08:36 -!- _danb_` is now known as _danb_ 15:08:58 <|3b|> xristos: yeah, might gain an ineffient usocket backend though 15:09:00 |3b|: So stunnel would work? I'm definitely interested, yes. 15:09:04 <|3b|> *inefficient 15:09:12 I want everything going through SSL in my application (I'm pretty sure I can handle the load) 15:09:15 <|3b|> sykopomp: i assume so, i tested stud and it works fine 15:09:57 -!- irrumator is now known as amazigh 15:10:38 *|3b|* should probably add an option to only bind local interface, for when it should only be used behind a proxy like that 15:10:57 *sykopomp* nods. 15:11:12 awesome. I won't be looking into actually SSLing everything for a while, anyway :) 15:11:19 *sykopomp* needs something that works first :( 15:11:24 *sykopomp* -> groceries. 15:16:23 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-107-7.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:18:48 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-40-182.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 15:18:58 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:23:30 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:23:59 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-143-20.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:12 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:26:48 -!- amazigh is now known as tanasinn 15:27:18 -!- tanasinn is now known as Guest53926 15:28:13 -!- Guest53926 is now known as irrumator 15:28:40 -!- wtetzner [~wtetzner@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:29:00 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:29:32 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:31:51 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:32:26 xristos: what's the problem ? 15:35:22 -!- zvrba [96456@diamant.ifi.uio.no] has left #lisp 15:37:25 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c0779.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:36 fisxoj [~fisxoj@ool-45766193.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:14 no C compiler for libfixposix ;p 15:38:38 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:38:46 xristos: what do you mean ? 15:39:18 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 15:39:25 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 15:39:41 i'm on new osx lion laptop that has no C compiler and wanted to try out the 3b's ws server 15:39:56 but since it depends on iolib which depend on libfixposix 15:40:29 i can't install and try it out in minutes 15:41:13 xristos: gcc isn't hard to install, is it? 15:41:21 <_3b> yeah, libfixposix is a bit annoying :/ 15:41:32 zorun: it is a couple of gigabytes at least 15:41:52 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:41:56 well i'll install it eventually, not something i can do right now 15:42:44 rme [~rme@50.43.135.89] has joined #lisp 15:43:03 *zorun* looks at his gcc which is taking 100 MB 15:44:34 Xcode 4.1 for Lion in the Mac App Store 15:44:36 File Size: 4.3 GB 15:44:45 ouch 15:46:32 xristos: yeah, it's insane 15:46:42 claint [~user@95.14.126.3] has joined #lisp 15:47:18 -!- SteveG [~Steve@c-71-195-234-222.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:49:06 -!- wolfpython [~wolf@114.222.95.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:49:10 danishman [~kvirc@0xbcb095dd.ngnqu1.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 15:50:03 fe[nl]ix: around? 15:51:58 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:53:17 hi 15:54:18 -!- gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:54:26 luis: yes 15:55:00 Hi luis 15:56:23 Does anyone know if ASDF has a test for whether a system is loaded? 15:56:33 H4ns [57bd7119@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.189.113.25] has joined #lisp 15:57:28 what do you want to do with it ? 15:58:25 there's operation-completed-p or something similar 15:59:03 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:59:32 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 15:59:54 If a user tries to use a feature that is in the system from another, I want to signal an error. The error will have a restart to load the system. 16:01:08 operation-done-p, rather 16:01:26 yeah, just found that 16:02:51 -!- scombinator [~user@121.98.92.184] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:02:53 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.25.198] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:04:23 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.164.137] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:05:56 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-143-20.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:06:14 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-143-20.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:15 replore [~replore@ntkngw133234.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:09:27 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@218.235.8.175] has joined #lisp 16:13:32 altsrid [~altsrid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:17:01 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-158-245.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:17:43 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:17:57 -!- manuel_ [~manuel_@pD9FDEA4F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: manuel_] 16:17:58 -!- manuel__ is now known as manuel_ 16:22:44 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 16:25:16 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 16:28:50 cffi.git's c-l.net mirror is not being updated. Any idea why? 16:28:57 fe[nl]ix 16:29:05 Hi LiamH. 16:29:46 luis: H4ns forbade me to run a global mirroring cronjob 16:29:58 ask him why, I think it's stupid 16:30:18 fe[nl]ix: i did not. 16:30:29 Heh. 16:30:36 luis: I got a few things crossed off the list. Setting the libffi-type-pointer for all types (built in, typedefs, structs) is now done. 16:31:59 LiamH: cool stuff. 16:32:17 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-143-20.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 16:32:43 LiamH: I haven't moved ahead much this week. I hope I can cross at least the first item this weekend. 16:32:45 H4ns: yes you did 16:32:57 pcavs [~Adium@c-65-96-169-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:04 luis: I'm working on the function interface now. I've spliced into parse-args-and-types. 16:33:40 fe[nl]ix: i do not "forbid" anything 16:34:02 H4ns: what's your objection to a mirroring cronjob? 16:34:22 luis: correction, canonicalize-foreign-type 16:34:50 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:35:06 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:35:44 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 16:35:48 i'm pulling up the discussion, don't remember it. 16:36:11 Kryztof [~user@217.205.188.114] has joined #lisp 16:36:14 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 16:36:14 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 16:36:38 ok, i did not "forbid" anything, but ehu said that i'd prefer if users installed such jobs in their own crontabs. 16:36:48 -!- fantazo__ [~fantazo@178-191-168-66.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:36:51 and i +1'd that. the discussion ended at that point. 16:37:01 OK, cool. That's what I was going to ask. 16:37:05 luis: http://paste.lisp.org/display/124703 16:37:15 I'll run it in my cronjob. 16:37:33 Any guidelines regarding timings and whatnot? 16:37:33 llllllluis 16:37:57 Hello Xach :) 16:38:22 luis: no. the machine is lightly loaded, so there is no need to be too shy 16:38:43 Cool. 16:39:11 I still think it makes little sense. unfortunately, git mirroring is not a straightforward job and if we ask people to do it themselves they'll get it wrong 16:40:09 fe[nl]ix: if you have good reasons to disagree, just reopen ticket 21 and continue discussing. i see no reason to blame people that they "forbid" something or act foolishly. 16:40:16 LiamH: hmm, that's probably not the right place to load cffi-fsbv. 16:40:40 luis: what would you do? 16:41:33 LiamH: perhaps in defcfun and friends. 16:41:36 fe[nl]ix: furthermore, if you think that git mirroring is hard, then you can just claim responsibility for that task and do it for all projects that need it. 16:42:18 fe[nl]ix: hmm. do you have a mirroring script to share? 16:42:41 I'm sure /I'll/ get it wrong. 16:43:00 luis: /custom/bin/cron.root.update-git-mirrors 16:43:01 luis: anyway, I'm confused by parse-args-and-types, it returns types and ctypes, the difference being the first is as given, the second is canonicalized. Why? 16:43:24 manuel__ [~manuel@pD9FDD19D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:22 luis: there is an issue with that script that needs to be taken care of, which is why it was disabled 16:44:28 ZabaQ [~john.conn@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:34 -!- altsrid [~altsrid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:44:35 luis: the issue is that it sometimes hangs 16:45:07 LiamH: the canonicalized type is what gets passed to cffi-sys:%foreign-funcall. 16:45:08 luis: if you want to take the task, it'd be good if you updated the ticket. to you have access to rt? 16:45:24 -!- j_king_ is now known as j_king 16:45:38 -!- manuel_ [~manuel@pD9FDEA4F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:45:38 -!- manuel__ is now known as manuel_ 16:45:40 luis: OK, but how is the uncanonicalized type used? 16:47:01 luis: also, is there a good reason why parse-args-and-types doesn't canonicalize the return type? 16:47:06 LiamH: they're passed to TRANSLATE-OBJECTS which will perform whatever conversions are defined. (And the final translated value should match the canonicalized type, otherwise cffi-sys:%foreign-funcall will signal an error) 16:47:07 H4ns: that's exactly what I was doing, mirroring all repos whose owners requested it 16:47:31 fe[nl]ix: right. the problem was the hanging, not so much the fact that you did it. 16:47:57 I can help out debugging the hanging bit, maybe. 16:47:58 fe[nl]ix: chun temporarily disabled the script because it was hanging, ehu said he thought it would be better if the process was decentralized, i agreed. 16:48:17 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.168] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:48:25 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.168] has joined #lisp 16:48:34 fe[nl]ix: do you have any idea why it's hanging? 16:48:34 fe[nl]ix: you did not continue discussing, so that is why it is currently disabled. once the problem is fixed, i have no issue with re-enabling it. 16:48:42 what problem is it ? it doesn't harm the machine 16:49:21 and the script uses a lock, so multiple copies won't run simultaneously, filling up the memory 16:49:54 luis: OK, so parse-args-and-types should map (:struct foo) into foo when building 'types? 16:50:13 luis: kevin rosenberg's server sometimes crashes which causes a git pull to hang for days 16:50:33 fe[nl]ix: that _is_ a problem in my book, if it prevents the updates from running. 16:50:34 luis: and git has no way to specify a timeout 16:51:05 fe[nl]ix: ISTR some convenient way to run a random command with a timeout 16:51:35 bash can certainly do that. 16:52:26 ( some-command ) & sleep ; kill $! 16:52:28 something like that? 16:52:53 H4ns: mirrors are not a life-and-death situation, nothing bad will happen if once a month or so they get delayed 16:52:56 ah, here we go: http://www.bashcookbook.com/bashinfo/source/bash-4.0/examples/scripts/timeout3 16:53:46 fe[nl]ix: i disagree. outdated mirrors suck. 16:54:05 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:54:10 fe[nl]ix: any objections to invoking git through this script? 16:54:12 Daev [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-185.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:54:42 H4ns: well, disabling the script altogether doesn't help much. :) 16:55:26 LiamH: we don't have to handle :struct specifically in parse-args-and-types 16:55:32 luis: true enough. it needs to be fixed. i'm all for that. the point is: we're in a voluntary setting, so we need volunteers to do it. 16:55:52 luis: great that you can do it. let me know if you need elevated access, rt account, whatever 16:55:53 LiamH: foreign-funcall calls canonicalize-foreign-type on the return type. I guess it's more convenient that way. 16:56:07 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:57:00 I'll probably add the timeout thingie to the global script and nudge fe[nl]ix into reenabling it if that's OK. 16:58:46 FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 16:59:11 luis: sure. there is no boss who could say it is not. 16:59:18 luis: So where would you handle :struct? 16:59:30 luis: please update the ticket, too. 16:59:45 H4ns: will do. 16:59:53 luis: thanks! 16:59:57 kpreid_ [~kpreid@128.153.215.226] has joined #lisp 17:00:24 -!- kpreid_ [~kpreid@128.153.215.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:00:39 kpreid_ [~kpreid@128.153.212.168] has joined #lisp 17:00:53 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.168] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:00:54 -!- kpreid_ is now known as kpreid 17:01:08 LiamH: via define-parse-method. 17:01:10 <_schulte_> anyone here familiar with clocc, I'd like to use it's matrix tools but the project on sourceforce looks abandoned 17:04:21 fe[nl]ix: does this look passable? https://gist.github.com/1224133 17:04:28 luis: Hmmm. I don't see how the two are connected. Also, the :struct is not really a type specification, but an indicator to a function how the function is to be called. 17:04:40 _schulte_: yes, nowadays there are other libraries. But if you find some function that is not replaced by a newer library, of course you can still find clocc useful. 17:06:26 <_schulte_> pjb: thanks, all of the download links on the sourceforge page are broken, but access w/mercurial appears to have worked 17:06:57 luis: OK, I see parse-type calls find-type-parser, which uses what is set in define-parse-method. 17:08:48 luis: I don't want to simply strip the :struct off and proceed with the structure name, I need to indicate to the function that it should use the structure by value. 17:08:51 lnostdal [~lnostdal@124.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 17:09:07 LiamH: I suppose that when FOREIGN-STRUCT-TYPE or a subclass thereof finds its way onto defcfun/foreign-funcall/etc that means its pass-by-value 17:10:00 _shulte_: I used clocc long ago, but transitioned away, because it doesn't show up in recent collections (not sure if it's in quicklisp). What matrix tools do you need? 17:10:45 LiamH: (:pointer (:struct some-struct)) and, temporarily, some-struct will parse to a yet-to-be-implemented POINTER-TYPE or something. 17:10:47 luis: So then what's the value in the :struct declaration? 17:11:16 as in (:struct value)? 17:11:55 luis: Yeah, if we parse that down to value at a low level, then it's just the same as saying value, isn't it? 17:12:51 realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has joined #lisp 17:13:54 LiamH: I'm not sure if that's what you're asking, but I think (:struct whatever) is the canonical type for structs. 17:14:09 s/is/should be/ 17:14:36 luis: linux timeout doesn't have -t 17:15:03 luis: OK. I have to think about that. Going for lunch now, back soon if you will be around. 17:15:03 fe[nl]ix: I'm assuming the timeout script that's in that same gist. I didn't know Linux had a timeout command. 17:15:28 LiamH: I will. I'll try to implement the rudimentary bits of what we've just discussed meanwhile. 17:17:45 ahinki [~chatzilla@AAmiens-551-1-63-133.w86-208.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:18:24 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 17:19:03 -!- georgikeith [georgekeit@nat/google/x-bchlbonyrfqrcghd] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:19:07 fe[nl]ix: in that case, we can just use timeout -k 17:19:38 without the -k even 17:20:50 fe[nl]ix: https://gist.github.com/1224133 (updated) 17:20:51 timeout -s HUP -k 65 60 ... 17:21:13 how does git respond to HUP? 17:21:18 yes 17:21:55 cool. Ship it! 17:23:07 *luis* tries to find out how to access c-l.net's tickets 17:23:15 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:24:39 fe[nl]ix: can you send a note to the ticket H4ns mentioned or should I ask him for access? 17:25:19 I must go now 17:25:28 I committed that change 17:25:32 later 17:25:55 cool. Thanks. 17:28:11 H4ns: how can I access the ticket you've mentioned. And what's the repository for these cron scripts? (http://common-lisp.net/viewvc/clo/ isn't it AFAICT) 17:29:26 luis: there is no repository i'll give you access to the ticket system after lunch, can't do it right now. 17:30:24 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 17:30:27 OK, that's fine. Thanks. 17:35:37 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 17:36:26 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@ool-45766193.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:38:41 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:41:32 luis: OK, I'll be interested to see that. 17:42:41 fisxoj [~fisxoj@ool-45766193.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:04 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-170-119.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:44:04 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-170-119.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:46:30 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:50:19 What is the :convention argument (value :stdcall or :cdecl)? 17:50:45 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@p5B2CBC52.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:54:33 -!- Kryztof [~user@217.205.188.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:57:30 LiamH: stdcall is calling convention mostly used in Windows 17:58:00 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@218.235.8.175] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:58:05 LiamH: wherein the callee pops the stack instead of the caller (as is the case in cdecl) 17:59:15 luis: Oh, OK. I was wondering because libffi offers options for calling convention: SYSV, UNIX64, and a default (which I think is SYSV). 17:59:28 no stdcall? 18:00:21 I'll look 18:01:51 yes, there it is 18:02:14 but only for windows 18:02:25 that's OK. 18:02:45 actually, only X86_WIN32 18:03:53 which means I'll have to conditionalize the grovel file 18:04:55 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:05:03 -!- OliverUv [~gandhi@195.159.235.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:05:17 LiamH: there's a grovel option to silently discard undefined stuff IIRC, isn't there? 18:05:31 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 18:05:45 luis: There is? OK, good, that saves me a lot of conditionalizing. 18:06:15 but I wonder how it would work for an enum 18:06:50 LiamH: constant has a boolean `optional' arg. 18:07:26 LiamH: cenum has an :optional kw arg you can specify per element. 18:08:29 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:08:31 but ffitarget.h has conditional blocks for each architecture, so the count could be wrong 18:11:27 LiamH: I'd expect grovel to handle that, otherwise there'd be no point in using it rather than a plain defcenum. 18:11:55 luis: you're right, been a long time since I looked at grovel files 18:12:00 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 18:12:04 I was going to say the same. :) 18:12:46 So I can just say (:stdcall "FFI_STDCALL" :optional) in the grovel file? 18:12:50 for cenum 18:13:14 :optional t, I think. 18:14:08 tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:09 Ah there it is. (c-printf out "%i" c-name) gets the value of the enum constant and inlines that in the defcenum definition. 18:14:22 OK. Does :cdecl translate to SYSV on 32 bit and UNIX64 on 64 bit platforms? 18:15:09 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.168] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 18:15:28 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.168] has joined #lisp 18:15:51 probably 18:15:58 Not sure. For the purposes of libffi integration I think you can take :cdecl to mean FFI_DEFAULT (or whatever it's called) 18:16:18 <_3b> is (ccl::atomic-incf (car some-cons)) a reasonable way to use ccl::atomic-incf? 18:16:29 there's a chance the UNIX64 refers to some specific system that didn't necessarily follow SysV 18:16:39 (DEC OSF/1?) 18:16:47 Yes, DEFAULT_ABI switches between the two as I said. 18:16:59 LiamH: I'd go with that then. 18:17:08 <_3b> ah, probably not if (car some-cons) is another cons 18:17:32 p_l|backup: it looks like for all 64 bit unix the default ABI is UNIX64. 18:18:06 heh 18:18:14 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 18:20:12 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.58.13.91] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:23:58 LiamH: hmm, :optional is documented, but I don't see it implemented. 18:24:09 -!- fds [~frankie@ajax.webvictim.net] has left #lisp 18:24:58 luis: ha! that's the opposite of the usual case for my code (implemented but not documented). 18:25:16 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 18:28:03 -!- danishman [~kvirc@0xbcb095dd.ngnqu1.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:28:21 luis: I'd like to merge the grovel++ branch 18:28:38 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-211-175.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:28:44 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-211-175.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:30:19 luis: that is, before any more changes are added 18:31:28 LiamH: constantenum implements optional. Not sure what the difference is between the two. 18:32:06 constantenum is a grovel form? 18:32:11 Yes. 18:32:11 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-149-186-129.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:32:33 fe[nl]ix: OK, I wasn't planning on messing with grovel. 18:33:35 I just remembered that the libffi grovel is conditionalized #+unix anyway, but that could change. 18:33:46 constantenum is for making a set of macros into a CFFI enum 18:34:59 cenum is for regular enum types 18:35:05 fe[nl]ix: it seems to work very much the same way as cenum. (but it implements optional) 18:36:09 IIRC if a member does not exist, constantenum signals just a warning, while cenum signals an error 18:37:00 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:37:14 right, an awful lot of code duplication there. 18:37:54 how's the grovel++ branch coming along? Are you still positive that requiring a C++ compiler is a good idea? 18:38:03 yes 18:38:27 there's not way to do compile-time dispatching in C 18:39:09 why do we need that? (you've told me, but I've forgotten) 18:39:35 to get the correct value of some constants 18:39:53 like SIG_DFL(IIRC) which is (void*)-1 18:40:28 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 18:40:56 and there's no way to know if a value is signed or unsigned 18:41:01 pavelludiq [~pavelludi@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 18:41:04 in C 18:41:30 rlr_ [~rlr@cpe-98-148-141-172.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:41:37 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:42:09 <_3b> hmm, no #\u+ffff in ccl 18:42:34 <_3b> (or #\u+fffe) 18:42:35 babel has a reader macro for that 18:43:02 <_3b> for what, non-existant characters? 18:43:11 optikalmouse [~user@bas1-toronto07-1176122586.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 18:43:12 kdas_ [~kdas@114.143.165.209] has joined #lisp 18:43:18 "existent" 18:43:28 <_3b> right, those too 18:43:35 _3b: we hack around that in Babel. 18:44:32 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 18:44:38 ok so with a flexi-stream I have to wrap a string stream in it so that I can use it as a binary output? 18:44:47 _3b: trying to remember how/where 18:45:06 FFFE and FFFF are valid code points 18:45:06 <_3b> luis: babel accepts utf16 surrogate code points encoded as utf8 though, which i don't want 18:45:11 (make-flexi-stream (make-string-output) :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8))? 18:45:32 _3b: that's probably a bug. 18:45:39 <_3b> optikalmouse: what is in the string, ans what octets do you want to be in the binary stream? 18:46:08 <_3b> fe[nl]ix: ccl doesn't seem to have characters with those codes though :/ 18:46:25 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:46:51 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:46:54 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 18:48:06 <_3b> sykopomp: http://3bb.cc/tmp/clws/test-reports/ 18:49:16 _3b: I probably shied away from commiting the hack. But ISTR being able to generate characters with those codepoints by using some internal function. 18:49:31 *sykopomp* wonders why 6.9.3 failed. O.o 18:49:55 <_3b> sykopomp: see above discussion about code points fffe and ffff 18:49:55 _3b: anyway, that's exciting. It would be nice to be back on CCL for development! :) 18:50:19 _3b: it's supposed to be unsigned-bytes in the string, so I'm not sure where I put the element-type.. 18:50:21 <_3b> which are responsible for all 3 failures in ccl 18:50:22 gotcha 18:50:38 <_3b> optikalmouse: why is it in a string then? 18:52:14 _3b: good question... 18:52:25 <_3b> luis: probably not worth bothering with just to pass a few tests, don't expect to see those characters in real use too often 18:52:40 _3b: yeah, probably not. 18:54:57 BrokenCog [~daniel@ip98-162-173-207.pn.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:48 *_3b* wonders if there is some faster python implementation i could run those tests in 18:56:21 cl-python might be faster than python. 18:56:29 <_3b> does it run twisted? 18:57:48 *_3b* would probably be better off writing a ws client than messing with python though 18:57:57 <_3b> even if it was python running on cl 19:01:03 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@ool-45766193.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:08:31 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-18-2-150.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:30 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-18-2-150.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:13:18 -!- kdas_ [~kdas@114.143.165.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:15:05 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:31 -!- MoALTz_ is now known as MoALTz 19:17:10 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-122-110.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:17:15 -!- ngz [~user@80.105.193.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:17:55 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:18:22 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 19:19:56 altsrid [~altsrid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:26:48 -!- replore [~replore@ntkngw133234.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:26:55 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:27:29 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:28:38 out of curiosity - how good is cl-python in terms of compatitbility with official python? 19:29:05 Nobody uses it, so who knows? 19:29:46 prxq: even if it was perfect, many of the interesting modules for python are ffi 19:29:54 i see 19:30:03 prxq: probably worse than jython. Especially since most of Python is FFI 19:30:31 and there's no spec to base yourself after 19:32:31 _3b: I believe cl-python can't run anything that uses ffi. 19:32:40 interesting that there is no spec. 19:33:23 sykopomp: i imagine it is possible, just not necessary enough to be accomplished. 19:33:26 the CL spec spoiled me. 19:33:48 it made me very sad when i read the python "reference" and it said "the rules for coercion would be too complicated to explain here." 19:34:40 when in doubt, try it out. 19:35:00 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@124.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:35:08 i.e. that's what it boils down to 19:35:42 Xach: you mean C code? 19:35:57 I don't know if I'm missing something, but does CLHS not specify what the default test is for sublis? 19:36:14 It's eql, it's specified somewhere. 19:36:47 pjb: I suspected so, but the sublis page itself doesn't list it. I presume it's an umbrella clause somewhere else 19:38:47 -!- H4ns [57bd7119@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.189.113.25] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:39:22 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 19:41:38 p_l|backup: I do not mean C code. 19:43:02 speaking of hosting a different lang in CL. Has anyone used cl-javascript? how good is it? 19:44:44 -!- mtd_ [~martin@chop.xades.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:44:46 luis: If you look at the doc, I dumped the defcfun etc. task on you :-). I have written and committed prepare-function; it looks like it generates the right thing, but I haven't run the generated function. 19:44:51 pnq [~nick@AC81098F.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 19:45:11 mtd [~martin@chop.xades.com] has joined #lisp 19:45:35 LiamH: OK, I'll take a look. I'm half-way through with the :struct thing. 19:47:02 luis: good, if you get that taken care of, then I'll fix the defcfun etc. macros to expand to prepare-function correctly. 19:47:23 *maxm-* is back to lisp land after doing a 2 week burst of fixing up my C++ side libraries 19:49:11 at least I now have my lisp->c++ interface done using s-exps (passed as strings to C++ side), so I can generate weird formulas from lisp side by using backquotes and macros 19:49:14 LiamH: can unions be passa-by-value as well? 19:49:22 luis: it's interesting to me how little of the original FSBV remains (which is good). Just the structs and calls to the library. 19:49:51 luis: is a union like a struct as far as the ABI is concerned? Then I'd say yes. 19:51:02 I don't know. 19:52:13 prxq: looks good to me 19:53:03 -!- BrokenCog [~daniel@ip98-162-173-207.pn.at.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:54:06 luis: I think it will work, there's nothing in the libffi docs saying it's not supported. 19:54:36 It does say varargs are not supported. 19:54:57 as well as bitfields. 19:55:12 BrokenCog [~daniel@ip98-162-173-207.pn.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:36 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl15-231-243.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 19:58:40 -!- manuel_ [~manuel@pD9FDD19D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: manuel_] 19:59:22 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl15-231-243.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 20:00:03 gonzojive [~gonzojive@178-83-238-199.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:03:28 MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-185.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:04:13 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81098F.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:05:26 has anyone had a problem with IMAGO and ZLIB? 20:05:44 ..does anyone use IMAGO even? ;p 20:06:02 pnq [~nick@AC81098F.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 20:07:05 <_3b> opticl seems to be the image lib of choice lately 20:07:22 -!- Daev [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-185.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:08:22 -!- fmu____ [u89@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tdohzmvpnpzyhcwj] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 20:08:46 -!- nicdev [~nicdev@c-98-217-188-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: nicdev] 20:09:08 ugh I guess I have to switch to it then.. 20:10:36 c_arenz [~arenz@p5B2CAC4B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:00 -!- BrokenCog [~daniel@ip98-162-173-207.pn.at.cox.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:18:05 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:18:28 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 20:22:37 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@p5B2CAC4B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:23:06 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:23:26 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-18-2-150.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:55 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 20:27:23 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-18-2-150.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:31:16 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-114-61.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:32:46 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:33:15 katesmith [~katesmith@97-89-229-3.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:33:15 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@97-89-229-3.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 20:33:15 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 20:36:30 lnostdal [~lnostdal@2.149.121.88.tmi.telenormobil.no] has joined #lisp 20:37:58 killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 20:39:18 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@AAmiens-551-1-63-133.w86-208.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 20:41:11 -!- MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-185.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:41:58 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.111.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:43:12 noname [~textual@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:23 optikalmouse: what do you use imago for? 20:43:36 manuel_ [~manuel@pD9FDD19D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:38 -!- noname is now known as Guest50410 20:48:03 -!- sharpobject is now known as ABO-ALI 20:49:41 -!- alvis [~alvis@tx-71-2-122-27.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:52:42 -!- Guest50410 is now known as na[k] 20:54:21 -!- ABO-ALI is now known as sharpobject 20:54:24 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81098F.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:02:40 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 21:06:49 Levente [~Levente@54007552.dsl.pool.telekom.hu] has joined #lisp 21:08:03 hi 21:08:53 -!- FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:17:19 LiamH: getting there. maintaining backwards compatibility is not as easy as I thought it'd be. 21:18:09 luis: Oh? So you're only adding (:struct foo) and maybe (:pointer foo)? 21:18:15 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:18:37 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 21:18:47 -!- Levente [~Levente@54007552.dsl.pool.telekom.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:19:03 LiamH: I've added (:struct foo) and (:union foo). (:pointer (:struct foo)) parses but doesn't perform translations. 21:19:30 however FOO sometimes parses as (:struct foo) other times as :pointer 21:19:44 luis: that's weird 21:20:28 Well, that's what it has to do to maintain backwards compatibility. I'm not getting all the cases right yet, though. 21:21:39 alvis [~alvis@tx-71-2-122-27.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:42 LiamH: the storage of a union is that of its largest member, and if the latter is a struct then that's how the union is passed by value 21:22:10 fe[nl]ix: and if not? 21:22:42 if the largest member is an int, then the union-as-parameter is passed as int 21:22:50 think of an union as an alias 21:23:07 luis: I don't get the compatibility problems, you're introducing new forms (lists) which should conflict with the old ones, should they? 21:24:16 fe[nl]ix: Oh. I wonder if we could just assume it's always by value. libffi just indirects every argument one level, so it should work. 21:24:21 LiamH: I'm trying to make (:STRUCT FOO) and FOO both work, but keeping the old semantics for the latter. 21:25:32 luis: OK 21:29:52 SteveG [~Steve@c-71-195-234-222.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:02 -!- irrumator is now known as Rorschach 21:30:57 -!- na[k] [~textual@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:34:44 http://paste.lisp.org/display/124707 21:34:58 I'm used to putting my defvars above, though SBCL errors if I do 21:35:02 -!- Rorschach is now known as irrumat0r 21:35:17 I got it to work like this, but it seems awfully clunky 21:35:30 -!- irrumat0r is now known as catullus 21:35:37 basic mutual reference, inside the same file 21:36:28 Either declaim/declare special yourself, or use 'poll, instead of #'poll. 21:37:07 -!- altsrid [~altsrid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:37:11 hmm, ok 21:37:42 this is the first time I think I hit a real source code ordering issue in SBCL, so I didn't know if I was missing something else 21:37:57 (other CLs do tend to be more picky on ordering within a file) 21:38:17 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 21:38:27 Phoodus: this has nothing to do with SBCL. 21:38:43 well right, it has to do with compile-time effects 21:39:59 but for instance, sbcl happily resolves plain (funcname ...) calls which forward-reference defuns later in the same file 21:40:03 while others do not 21:40:14 while some others do not 21:40:18 (mem-ref p 'some-struct-type) is a no-op, heh 21:40:36 skanderb3g [u2969@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vfbizdjzbiruzpow] has joined #lisp 21:40:43 -!- catullus [~ubuntu@ec2-107-20-162-43.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has left #lisp 21:42:08 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: bb] 21:42:29 Phoodus: you very probably want 'poll, anyway. Otherwise function redefinitions will not affect the timer. 21:42:38 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@2.149.121.88.tmi.telenormobil.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:42:43 true 21:42:44 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c0779.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:43:24 Phoodus: CL that don't take advantage of compilation units to get forward references right still won't error though; in fact, I'm not sure than a warning would be compliant. 21:44:04 luis: do you have something like sb-alien's :out or :in-out arguments? 21:44:53 pkhuong: no. 21:45:27 great. I get to figure out how to fix them myself ;) 21:45:59 what's wrong sb-alien's :out/:in-out? 21:47:52 there's a bug that makes it return aliens that point on the stack; I think it comes from a misunderstanding of the documentation which translates into a bad check (there's no reason we can't handle void** parameters). 21:48:16 *maxm-* really found sb-alien stuff confusing comparing to cffi that just deals with saps 21:48:28 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-213-57.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:48:43 ie there is an extra level of indirection, the alien pointers are actually wrapped into sb-alien-internal defstruct, which has a sap and a data type pointer 21:48:45 maxm-: well yes, doing more often entails exposing more. 21:48:51 but in callbacks its slightly different 21:49:17 *maxm-* is not complaining, it works well, just saying he was confused by it 21:50:15 luis: so, rather than checking if the :out argument is a pointer to a struct *in the C function*, we have a check for pointerness of the out parameter. So, we forbid foo(void ** OUT_bar), rather than foo(struct bar * OUT_bar) (which we happily miscompile). 21:52:32 why would you forbid struct bar *out? 21:53:14 ah, :out implies dereferencing. which alien probably won't know how to do for structs. 21:53:35 no, it's just that :out struct means that we have to allocate on the heap. 21:54:28 ah, I see. 21:56:15 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:57:35 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:02:28 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:05:13 Levente [~Levente@54007552.dsl.pool.telekom.hu] has joined #lisp 22:05:17 clhs ~[ 22:05:53 I know it's late, but any comment on this? http://programmingmusings.blogspot.com/2011/09/immutable-code.html 22:06:47 Hi Levente! 22:06:58 mjs2600 [~user@user-0c999k2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 22:07:05 luis, hello! 22:07:20 New blog? Cool! :-) 22:07:38 first post, maybe the last :) 22:07:48 *luis* adds it to his google reader feed and hopes it won't be the last. 22:09:01 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:10:13 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-47-207.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:12:02 Levente: versioned code is an interesting idea. What happens with dependencies that aren't explicit in the code? E.g., some state in some file. 22:12:08 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-38-158-245.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:12:21 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-158-245.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:10 luis, good question 22:13:45 anything that is in the outside world, must be explicitly handled by the code 22:14:07 that is the file is going to have a version number anyway... 22:14:42 yeah, not a show stopper. 22:14:44 the same holds for any data used by versioned code (e.g. a database) 22:14:50 ngz [~user@80.105.193.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:54 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:16:07 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-47-207.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:17:18 but it sounds tricky having, e.g., multiple versions of the code accessing the same persistent resource simultaneously. 22:17:37 Amyn [~abennama@cac94-2-87-91-21-215.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 22:18:18 anyway, boring detail... 22:18:33 luis: not an issue if it's immutable as well ;) 22:18:41 luis, it might or might not matter 22:19:02 Levente: I wouldn't be terribly surprised if some Self or Smalltalk system implemented something like this already. 22:20:02 neither me 22:20:41 pkhuong, completely immutable data (except a single global pointer) is possible although not that feasible :) 22:22:24 Levente: not going to ECLM? 22:22:51 luis, no 22:24:03 pity :) 22:25:12 I don't have too much spare time and more importantly money lately 22:25:30 I even hardly program in lisp 22:25:40 so I write blog posts instead 22:25:44 Heh. 22:25:48 maybe about structured editing next time... 22:25:54 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:26:00 What are you up to these days? 22:26:15 working for food 22:26:27 and some android stuff 22:27:16 I'm working on a small android game to see what can I get out of that 22:27:33 and what about you luis? 22:28:11 Levente: I'm writing an Android game too. :-) 22:28:13 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:29:13 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.134.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:30:03 lnostdal [~lnostdal@2.149.121.88.tmi.telenormobil.no] has joined #lisp 22:30:25 Levente: I don't like the template ;) 22:31:46 StrmSrfr, anything more specific? 22:32:40 luis, so we are competitors... 22:32:41 luis: Erlang pulled of runtime, non-coherent update 22:32:53 perhaps the parchment background is too dark and I don't like the headings running into the paragraphs instead of having a line break after 22:32:55 -!- manuel_ [~manuel@pD9FDD19D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: manuel_] 22:32:55 *pulled off 22:33:07 with code getting versions to keep track 22:33:32 StrmSrfr, thx I will consider these 22:33:54 -!- Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:34:02 but as for the content, this relates a lot to some previous work that his been done in two areas of immutable interfaces and some interesting stuff that I think was done on Windows with allowing one program to use multiple versions of a library 22:34:03 Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #lisp 22:35:08 StrmSrfr, the background is really awful 22:35:22 StrmSrfr: one program using multiple versions of library is the common cause of crashes on windows. What they did recently was make sure that you can get the correct binary matched 22:36:21 p_l|backup: I hadn't gotten around to reading the paper yet, I just saw the citation. I don't know a lot about how Windows works. 22:38:22 StrmSrfr: the only difference on shared libs is that classic windows code isn't position-independent, so you've got predefined address written in header, with issues if two libraries collide and aren't relocatable 22:38:47 yikes 22:38:49 there might be something interesting in (D)COM though 22:39:52 -!- Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:39:56 katesmith_ [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 22:39:59 Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #lisp 22:40:23 still, if someone want's to look into versioned code and in-flight updates done with all the architecture (not just "it's possible to load a fasl"), look into Erlang's OTP 22:40:34 The thing I haven't read yet was: J. K. Hollingsworth and E. L. Miller. Using content-derived names for configuration management. In Proceeding of the 1997 ACM Symposium on Software Reusability, Boston, May 1997. 22:42:26 wtetzner [~wtetzner@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:18 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:45:05 now I'm off to dinner. I'll leave you with: the biggest difficulty I think with changing code, is bug fixes, because some clients are going to want the "bug fix", and others are going to break because they were written to depend on the bug 22:46:44 -!- Levente [~Levente@54007552.dsl.pool.telekom.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:46:57 altsrid [~altsrid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:32 StrmSrfr: make it so that the second behaviour is highly penalised and hard to do, and if found to be feature for some, separate it inot one (like Android's "flashlight" permission - it started as a case of apps digging into "privileged" private parts of OS) 22:51:56 -!- drdo [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:55:57 Phoodus: http://paste.lisp.org/+2O83/1 (although i also think 'poll is preferable to #'poll) 22:56:25 -!- serichsen [~user@hmbg-5f76401c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Good night!] 22:57:49 in real world ppl fight this by basically a) Making their data structures the union of everything every single client ever wanted b) Coming up with home grown dynamic object system, ie storing everything in key=value dictionaries, and having static database structure supporting that... 22:58:44 usually a) is the case for older, more organically grown software, where codebase probably started by ppl who were more domain experts then programmers 22:59:25 and the b) case is when a new team came in, and did "ok, lets throw everything away and rewrite" routine.. Which is kind of hard to pull off right, so there are few successful examples 22:59:45 DataLinkDKT [~AndChat@120.153.83.34] has joined #lisp 23:00:40 -!- ngz [~user@80.105.193.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:00:45 nowadays I would just use hibernate 23:00:59 -!- Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:01:08 Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #lisp 23:04:41 -!- DataLinkDKT [~AndChat@120.153.83.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:05:00 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-154-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:05:11 -!- Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Client Quit] 23:05:20 Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #lisp 23:05:43 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-122-110.wbs.co.za] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:13:35 LiamH: pushed the :struct/:union implementation. 23:14:01 luis: woo-hoo, just cleaning up the prepare-function definition. 23:14:35 *Xach* can't wait for the next cffi release! 23:15:04 LiamH: it breaks the struct-values tests since (:pointer (:struct foo)) doesn't perform translations yet. (Forgot to mention that in the commit message.) 23:15:50 OK, I can't pull just yet because I need to commit my changes then merge. 23:16:07 LiamH: you can stash your changes, I suppose. 23:16:12 Xach: neither can I! 23:16:38 luis: Nah, close to cleaning up what I have, I'd rather commit then merge. 23:17:17 don't one-commit merges bother you BTW? 23:17:28 luis: is the param argument strictly necessary for free-translated-object? It seems redundant. 23:17:41 luis: no, should they? 23:18:18 I usually use rebase for those. They feel like noise in the commit log to me. 23:18:32 Not a bit deal. 23:18:39 I suppose. 23:19:28 -!- Amyn [~abennama@cac94-2-87-91-21-215.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:20:35 *LiamH* stashes 23:21:13 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@cpc1-oxfd18-2-0-cust444.4-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:21:21 -!- katesmith_ is now known as katesmith 23:21:35 -!- SteveG [~Steve@c-71-195-234-222.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:21:57 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 23:21:58 LiamH: well, this protocol lets, e.g., the :string type accept a pointer. (in which case it doesn't try to free it) 23:22:40 luis: OK, I ignore it in my little 'complex example. 23:22:57 wow, only one conflict, on canonicalize 23:23:45 -!- tessier [~treed@216.105.40.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:24:08 LiamH: James came up with it. It felt redundant to me too at first, and you can ignore it on most cases. Although we've added slots to foreign types in the meantime, so I guess you could store that state in a slot. 23:24:25 Amyn [~abennama@cac94-2-87-91-21-215.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 23:28:07 Or rather, we've exposed the fact that foreign-types are classes and have slots. 23:31:20 LiamH: I wouldn't mind getting rid of it, but it's not worth the backwards incompatibility it'd introduce. 23:31:32 no worries 23:31:35 TeMPOraL [~user@cpc1-oxfd18-2-0-cust444.4-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:31:42 If only we had immutable, versioned code. Dammit Levente! 23:31:50 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:31:50 LiamH: did you get a massive grep working? 23:32:14 luis: if only we used some versionning repositories for our code... 23:32:32 pjb: it does overlap doesn't it? 23:32:51 Precises. 23:33:48 Xach: no, it was OBE, Martin Simmons made the point that LW uses (:struct foo) to declare structures by value, because C has separate namespaces for structures and types. It may come up again if we get rid of the straight "foo" declaration in CFFI (which now gets translated into :pointer). 23:34:57 Because we decided :struct was the way to go, it's possible to keep backwards compatibility for now. Though as luis was saying, it wasn't easy to maintain that compatibility. 23:35:56 -!- Axioplase_ [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:36:07 Still, I was a bit surprised at the fraction of systems in ql that use, directly or indirectly, CFFI. About 40%. 23:36:23 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@cpc1-oxfd18-2-0-cust444.4-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:37:13 Have you seen that new Google Flight Search thingie? It depends on CFFI too. :-P 23:37:35 luis: I have, no idea it used CFFI, but it makes sense. 23:37:58 I guess they don't need structures by value though. 23:38:05 LiamH: that's awful.. 23:38:25 pjb: ? 23:38:44 That so many libraries are not written in CL, but must go thru FFI. 23:38:49 OBE? 23:39:02 overcome by events 23:39:11 milslang? 23:39:19 I guess it must be 23:39:20 -!- pcavs [~Adium@c-65-96-169-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:39:42 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@host86-148-28-198.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:39:59 heh. actually, I'm not 100% sure about that used. They (ITA) might have used CFFI only in their reservation system. 23:40:15 s/that used/that/ 23:40:59 Xach: still would be interesting to have that search feature though. 23:41:04 yeah 23:41:34 you could compile a static, dist-global xref without too much trouble 23:42:39 -!- benny [~benny@i577A78C4.versanet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:44:12 tessier [~treed@216.105.40.125] has joined #lisp 23:44:23 hmmm.... I wonder about that Google Flight Search. If it works through ITA's codebase, it means a *giant* change, or at least local provision, for otherwise not accepted practices (in Google) 23:44:30 benny [~benny@i577A78C4.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 23:47:29 luis: OK my changes are committed and pushed... shall we hook up your parser to prepare-function? 23:48:44 *luis* pulls 23:49:40 SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@62.sub-75-202-132.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 23:49:46 *LiamH* looks at luis' changes 23:51:45 LiamH: do they close item #9? 23:52:47 yes? (not sure what #9 is, but there was only one left IIRC) 23:53:16 -!- Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:53:24 Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #lisp 23:53:31 so 3.b.i., foreign-funcall 23:53:58 Springheeled-J [~Spring-he@173.sub-75-204-149.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 23:54:23 -!- SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@62.sub-75-202-132.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:54:26 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:54:37 So I should do surgery in foreign-funcall-form, right? 23:55:41 think so. 23:56:00 If one or more of the args, and/or the return is a call by value, then I need to substitute the result of prepare-function for function. 23:57:18 Right. I guess you could look at ctypes and look for (member (ensure-car ctype) '(:struct :union)). 23:58:04 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:59:32 -!- Springheeled-J [~Spring-he@173.sub-75-204-149.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]