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#lisp 01:41:52 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: 1861] 01:41:53 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@219.136.215.175] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:42:18 gaidal [~gaidal@219.136.215.175] has joined #lisp 01:43:36 I just installed quicklisp and alexandria, but when I compile my code I get this error: https://gist.github.com/1220980 01:44:57 -!- tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:44:58 the last time I setup slime I'm quite sure I changed the default place where it looks for common lisp files, but I'm not sure. I looked all over the cliki and through tutorials I googled to no avail. 01:45:25 Did you load alexandria? 01:45:38 tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:46:41 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 01:50:14 sherkund: when you restart SBCL, you get a fresh image (state). Even though the packages are on your hard drive, you still have to load them in the image. 01:50:28 pcavs [~Adium@c-65-96-169-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:51:03 That's what ASDF handles; if you use quicklisp, quickloading a system will install it (and its dependencies) if needed, and always load the system in the current image. 01:51:35 -!- SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@130.sub-75-225-190.myvzw.com] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 01:52:03 , if someone wants to play with clang. I haven't tested it at all, but at least the wrapper around the C wrapper (sigh...) and the FFI definitions are there. 01:52:06 but I installed quicklisp and alexandria through quicklisp; I also ran the add-to-init-file command. 01:52:18 sherkund: they're installed, but not loaded in your image. 01:52:21 SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@130.sub-75-225-190.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 01:52:31 You still want to quickload alexandria in your current, *new*, image. 01:53:56 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-43.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:54:03 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-43.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:55:00 but I am working with a file generated by (quickproject:make-project ...), I mean this code used to work, so I know somehow this is my fault in setting up sbcl/slime, but I just don't understand how. 01:56:41 my code: https://gist.github.com/1220998 and my asd: https://gist.github.com/1221000 01:57:41 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:57:57 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:58:41 -!- DataLinkDKT [~DataLinkD@1.144.119.245] has quit [Quit: Bye] 02:00:31 topeak [~topeak@123.114.126.12] has joined #lisp 02:01:16 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:01:16 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 02:01:16 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 02:02:03 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-106-3.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:08 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-106-3.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:02:09 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 02:02:41 mindCrime_ [~chatzilla@cpe-076-182-089-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:05:16 sherkund does (asdf:load-system :alexandria) work 02:06:00 -!- SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@130.sub-75-225-190.myvzw.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:06:08 SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@130.sub-75-225-190.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 02:09:18 if you do (ql:quickload :euler) it should automatically install alexandria if you don't have it 02:10:19 gko [~gko@27.242.157.135] has joined #lisp 02:10:58 kennyd: yes, asdf:load-system works 02:13:22 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:14:19 and (asdf:load-system :euler) ? 02:15:40 are you trying to evaluate a function etc within euler.lisp buffer without loading euler package first? 02:16:01 you should load it with asdf:load-system or ql:quickload first 02:17:12 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:48 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483CEAC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:24:00 when I try (asdf:load-system :euler) I get "component 'euler' not found: [Condition of type ASDF:MISSING-COMPONENT]" 02:24:22 how does slime know where to look for files? 02:24:38 I think that's where my mistake is, but I can't seem to figure out how to find the relevant documentation 02:25:08 Arches [~user@113.227.211.198] has joined #lisp 02:31:00 what is the other way to output a string as a keyword, other then intern? 02:31:42 sherkund: asdf:*central-registry*? 02:32:33 -!- SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:34:00 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:36:54 Kenjin: (format t ":|~A|" (escape-pipes string)) 02:37:15 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-233-179-168.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:37:15 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-233-179-168.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 02:37:15 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 02:38:03 pjb: hehe 02:38:05 Gmind [~nevermind@123.16.230.238] has joined #lisp 02:38:35 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sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:34:38 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:36:45 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:39:52 elfrosch [~Brnt@tmo-097-179.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 05:40:05 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:40:32 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 05:41:13 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.111.33] has joined #lisp 05:42:28 -!- pcavs [~Adium@c-65-96-169-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:44:17 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:46:05 billstcalir [~billstcla@p-68-237-137-149.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 05:49:00 good morning #lisp 05:49:01 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:49:49 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:52:08 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:52:14 -!- billstcalir [~billstcla@p-68-237-137-149.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:52:44 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 05:55:02 Vivitron [~user@pool-108-7-56-243.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:03:43 Arches [~user@113.227.211.198] has joined #lisp 06:04:20 -!- Arches [~user@113.227.211.198] has left #lisp 06:04:28 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-180-12.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:08:55 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:09:13 good morning 06:11:35 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has joined #lisp 06:17:41 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-wpchgblyqfwbfzjm] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:18:23 hello 06:21:26 stassats 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has joined #lisp 08:24:48 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:33:58 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-134-43.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:35:04 -!- anvandare [~anvandare@dD5770A0E.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:35:16 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 08:35:33 Amyn [~abennama@64.208.49.45] has joined #lisp 08:35:40 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-180-12.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:43:33 -!- ntd [~user@adsl-98-92-75-11.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:46:28 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-204-30.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:49:42 c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-nzxpyimdxputdwxc] has joined #lisp 08:49:47 wolfpython [~walter@58.212.239.232] has joined #lisp 08:50:33 anvandare [~anvandare@dD5770CE1.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 08:59:18 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@46.188.228.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:02:30 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-kbdekirriynyouza] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:03:26 kennyd [~kennyd@178.160.6.32] has joined #lisp 09:04:51 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 09:07:07 yakov [~yakov@ip-83-149-3-157.nwgsm.ru] has joined #lisp 09:07:59 -!- anvandare [~anvandare@dD5770CE1.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:12:56 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-216-210.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 09:14:54 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-nzxpyimdxputdwxc] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:16:59 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 09:17:49 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 09:20:43 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:20:51 -!- dbushenko [~dim@86.57.253.61] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 09:24:21 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-xfppnqxxdmgfvncb] has joined #lisp 09:25:46 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 09:27:58 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:31:54 -!- lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:33:28 serichsen [~user@hmbg-5f762510.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:33:30 Hello! 09:35:28 -!- wolfpython [~walter@58.212.239.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:36:15 allandee [~allandee@212.45.113.84] has joined #lisp 09:39:20 -!- replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:41:24 hello serichsen 09:43:31 -!- yakov [~yakov@ip-83-149-3-157.nwgsm.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:43:54 lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 09:44:02 -!- tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:44:29 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 09:46:15 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:46:39 abeaumont [~abeaumont@245.235.219.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 09:46:55 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:54:17 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:57:08 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-xfppnqxxdmgfvncb] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:58:13 I really must learn more about using the MOP 09:58:18 It seems to be a big deal. 09:58:29 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-unqfsqjfaczwcswf] has joined #lisp 10:00:12 It's mildly frustrating that the Keene book doesn't discuss this. 10:01:58 -!- manuel_ [~manuel_@p57921977.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: manuel_] 10:02:00 I've not used it much myself yet, except to query the slots of a class, which was useful for reflection (I'm surprised that's not a standard CLOS feature, actually) 10:02:17 might have got forgotten when MOP was left out 10:02:28 (of the standard) 10:03:57 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 10:05:03 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@178.160.6.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:09:18 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:09:43 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:14:09 -!- tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:15:32 -!- H4ns` is now known as H4n2 10:15:34 -!- H4n2 is now known as H4ns 10:16:11 H4ns: Not "H4n5"? ;) 10:16:58 serichsen: that'd be too leet 10:17:48 H4ns: j0. :o) 10:18:42 Ugh. I found batman in my kernel configuration options. 10:22:30 Amadiro [~Amadiro@1x-193-157-194-40.uio.no] has joined #lisp 10:22:33 nostoi [~nostoi@120.Red-79-157-250.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:25:34 -!- waaaaaargh_ [~waaaaargh@agsb-5d8713b6.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: WTF? leaving!] 10:28:57 kennyd [~kennyd@93.159.65.81] has joined #lisp 10:32:46 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@120.Red-79-157-250.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 10:34:08 -!- yroeht [yroeht@server5.tonbnc.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:37:51 katesmith [~katesmith@97-89-229-3.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 10:37:51 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@97-89-229-3.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 10:37:51 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 10:39:19 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-47-207.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:42:13 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-71-239.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:44:18 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl15-231-243.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 10:52:25 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93.159.65.81] has quit [Quit: bye] 10:54:31 manuel_ [~manuel_@p57921977.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:55:15 killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 10:58:11 -!- gko [~gko@27.242.157.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:58:12 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@219.136.215.175] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:58:45 gaidal [~gaidal@219.136.215.175] has joined #lisp 11:04:14 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:05:31 -!- lnostdal [~Lars@ti0030a380-dhcp2618.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:07:26 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 11:11:09 -!- topeak [~topeak@123.114.126.12] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:14:24 killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 11:15:03 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl15-231-243.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 11:15:48 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-unqfsqjfaczwcswf] has left #lisp 11:16:54 Mohikaner_ [5d841e4f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.132.30.79] has joined #lisp 11:29:27 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl15-231-243.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 11:36:33 replore_ [~replore@ntkngw133234.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:38:05 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 11:42:15 francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has joined #lisp 11:42:29 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-154-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:43:58 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:45:13 Hi does anyone routinely document their log of the program run on the data (something like the use of dribble)? 11:52:42 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:52:56 Xach: ayt? 11:53:14 Hi H4ns 11:54:18 Xach: hi. i've got a question regarding zpb-ttf (or truetype in general): is there a way to convert from the units used in the ttf file to inches? i tried finding out what the coordinate system really is, but failed. 11:54:37 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 11:54:40 fihi09 [~user@pool-71-190-69-39.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:55:04 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has joined #lisp 11:55:16 <|3b|> isn't the lack of a specific conversion sort of the point? 11:55:31 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@1x-193-157-194-40.uio.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:55:51 |3b|: sort of, yes. but then, at some point one needs to map from units to physical coordinates, right? 11:56:26 H4ns: i'm not sure how it's documented, but when i want to display at 12 "points" on screen, i scale the units/em figure into 12 when drawing. 11:56:59 The units/em is a property of the font loader object. 11:58:07 ok, that is how i tried to use it. ok, thanks. i guess i'll need to experiment more. 11:58:28 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:58:34 (using zpb-ttf to caculate the width of a string when svg renders it here) 11:59:16 ah 12:00:16 H4ns: when i experiment with that stuff, I find it helpful to draw a lot of rectangles, like outlining each glyph's em square, bounding box, etc. 12:00:38 And drawing lines for the axes for each glyph, and its advance width, and things like that. 12:02:14 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:02:26 makes sense. i guess that i'll first have to make sure that i'm using ttf files that match the font metrics of those used by svg. 12:03:17 MoALTz [~no@host-92-18-2-150.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 12:03:58 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 12:04:28 killerstorm [~alex_mizr@195.225.156.93] has joined #lisp 12:06:38 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has joined #lisp 12:06:51 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:13:02 dsp_ [~tt@lebesgue.cowpig.ca] has joined #lisp 12:13:06 hi folks 12:13:56 i seem to have made sbcl crash into the LDB 12:14:18 could someone aid me in getting useful information for whoever it'd concern? i'm quite new with this 12:14:35 markskil1eck [~mark@host86-137-39-125.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:15:12 -!- Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:16:28 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:19:27 _danb_ [~user@124-149-186-129.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 12:20:57 dsp_: stack overflow? 12:21:34 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.111.33] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:22:03 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.111.33] has joined #lisp 12:22:07 francogrex: http://www.technoanimal.net/sbcl2.txt 12:22:11 looks quite bad 12:22:22 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 12:22:36 seems to be a side effect of rather strange and difficult to capture command line parameters 12:22:46 <|3b|> might try more recent sbcl 12:22:47 somehow i think some invalid unicode slipped into the arguments 12:22:55 |3b|: i would, if i could capture this environment 12:23:03 the only way for me to currently reproduce is to press up and enter 12:23:13 whenever it seems to be written out to files etc the command line gets munged 12:23:30 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.111.33] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:23:48 i can 100% reproduce it on this machine by re-running the same command line, but when it comes to saving that somewhere and then running it again from the captured input, it obviously is not the same 12:23:56 so that's my primary hurdle 12:24:22 <|3b|> can you copy/paste the command into emacs, or replace sbcl with echo and pipe it to a file? 12:24:28 didn't work 12:24:40 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-143-20.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:24:42 <|3b|> in either case, do you get a different char for that bad character? 12:24:57 it's most peculiar. i think it's a different character, or it drops a portion of it, or something 12:25:24 let me try fiddling... 12:26:42 when i replace echo with sbcl, and pipe it to a file, you'd think that'd capture it, right? 12:27:06 <|3b|> might also try piping to hexdump 12:28:46 http://www.technoanimal.net/hexdump.txt -- whether that's true or not i dunno 12:29:06 i suppose there's likely a way for me to take that and reproduce it. i'll try and work on that 12:29:23 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.111.33] has joined #lisp 12:29:24 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@219.136.215.175] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:29:25 <|3b|> yeah, that looks different 12:29:37 <|3b|> (and more likely to confuse something expecting utf8) 12:29:45 gaidal [~gaidal@219.136.215.175] has joined #lisp 12:30:07 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:30:08 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@219.136.215.175] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:30:10 yeah, and when i copied and pasted the command hexdump produced something different altogether 12:30:24 so looks like i've captured the offending line at least :) thanks 12:30:36 gaidal [~gaidal@219.136.215.175] has joined #lisp 12:31:07 ngz [~user@80.105.193.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 12:32:53 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.14.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:33:09 <|3b|> ok, reproduced on 1.0.36 x86, trying newer... 12:34:25 yroeht [yroeht@server5.tonbnc.fr] has joined #lisp 12:35:02 <|3b|> yeah, breaks on 1.0.51-something as well, if less verbosely 12:35:36 <|3b|> more informatively though, it is the broken UTF8 12:36:02 my 2nd bug then :) 12:36:10 both stemmed from broken UTF8 12:40:01 Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 12:43:30 <|3b|> http://3bb.cc/tmp/sbcl-broken-utf8 contains the actual broken command-line i think 12:44:12 pnq [~nick@AC81D219.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 12:44:13 yep, "worked" on my other machine too, thanks a lot for the help 12:45:05 -!- dRbiG [p@bofh.edu.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:45:13 -!- mindCrime_ [~chatzilla@cpe-076-182-089-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:48:50 -!- Mohikaner_ [5d841e4f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.132.30.79] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:50:02 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:55:36 <|3b|> can i do non-blocking IO with cl+ssl and iolib? 12:55:46 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.111] has joined #lisp 12:57:07 no 12:58:32 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 12:59:14 <|3b|> any guess as to the easiest way to get non-blocking TLS? 13:01:13 *|3b|* wonders if i should just recommend an external TLS proxy or something 13:01:53 <|3b|> (assuming that sort of thing exists in a generic enough form) 13:02:12 |3b|: i'm using squid for that, works well. 13:02:28 <|3b|> H4ns: does squid proxy websocket? 13:02:45 |3b|: that i don't know. 13:02:56 |3b|: use stud 13:03:00 elfrosch [~Brnt@pD954CD7A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:03:22 -!- allandee [~allandee@212.45.113.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:03:54 Must the ssl libraries be given the socket? Can they act as an opaque engine operating on packets handed to them? In that case, could you collect data from the socket until you have a complete SSL/TLS PDU? 13:03:54 https://github.com/bumptech/stud 13:04:10 *Xach* has never looked into it 13:04:43 H4ns: have you used any cache server (or reverse proxy) other than Squid? 13:04:44 better separate TLS from the application itselfe 13:05:14 Xach: yes, openssl has a sort of in-memory streams 13:05:25 but it's not well documented 13:05:28 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:05:39 markskilbeck [~chris@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 13:06:01 felideon: i evaluated varnish and ngnix a few years ago when i was told that they are teh cool, but found squid to be better for my purposes. 13:06:03 we use stud in production quite nicely 13:06:03 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 13:06:26 H4ns: ah interesting. those are the two I would like to experiment with. :) maybe even mongrel2 13:06:47 ChibaPet [~mason@c-68-58-147-105.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:06:54 felideon: i found squids caching behavior to be most predictable, in particular in connection with if-modified-since. 13:10:16 Odditus [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 13:10:16 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:10:19 -!- Odditus is now known as Oddity 13:12:50 Hello, is anybody here using elephant? 13:15:27 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.111.33] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:16:06 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.111.33] has joined #lisp 13:16:27 *Xach* is not using elephant 13:17:29 dlowe [dlowe@nat/google/x-jwfahoopeecbyslg] has joined #lisp 13:17:29 *francogrex* using a camel 13:17:57 Oh camel 13:20:56 -!- SpitfireWP [~spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:21:11 allandee [~allandee@212.45.113.84] has joined #lisp 13:22:29 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-149-186-129.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:24:05 -!- francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:25:41 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-143-20.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 13:26:46 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.153.185] has joined #lisp 13:26:58 markskil2eck [~mark@host86-137-39-125.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 13:28:11 markskil3eck [~chris@host86-137-39-125.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 13:28:17 -!- markskilbeck [~chris@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:28:18 SpitfireWP [~spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 13:29:41 -!- markskil1eck [~mark@host86-137-39-125.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:35:53 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 13:37:29 -!- markskil3eck [~chris@host86-137-39-125.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:37:33 -!- markskil2eck [~mark@host86-137-39-125.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:40:28 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:41:10 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 13:46:13 -!- kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:49:42 -!- Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:52:19 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.226] has quit [Quit: Offline] 13:52:22 pcavs [~Adium@c-65-96-169-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:02 -!- pcavs [~Adium@c-65-96-169-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:54:32 pcavs [~Adium@c-65-96-169-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:48 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@245.235.219.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:55:27 swilde [~wilde@aktaia.intevation.org] has joined #lisp 13:55:56 -!- sherkund [~sherkund@c-24-62-227-71.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:57:34 jweiss [~user@cpe-069-134-009-084.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:59:37 -!- pcavs [~Adium@c-65-96-169-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:59:39 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@219.136.215.175] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:59:50 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.181.129] has joined #lisp 13:59:51 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 14:00:00 gaidal [~gaidal@219.136.215.175] has joined #lisp 14:02:26 altsrid [~altsrid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:32 there was a recent post from the new elephant maintainer saying that the only backends that would be supported are BDB and Postgres, and Postgres is lagging a bit. 14:06:37 -!- elfrosch [~Brnt@pD954CD7A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:07:55 abeaumont [~abeaumont@53.234.219.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 14:10:17 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:17:33 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/a31b316037b8d22d 14:17:42 ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 14:17:44 gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:50 elfrosch [~Brnt@pD954CD7A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:16 using third party DBs is boring 14:19:16 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.111.33] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:20:17 urandom__ [~user@p548A5449.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:35 -!- guther [~guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-mfjpkytggyocxbpi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:22:15 guther [~guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-ppjxgxvsiyuouiak] has joined #lisp 14:22:20 -!- gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:22:28 -!- Pepe_ [~ppjet@anderith.bouah.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:22:49 Pepe_ [~ppjet@anderith.bouah.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:42 Xach: zpb-ttf is the rocks, thanks! 14:25:11 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:26:18 drack3n [~drack3n@89.Red-80-25-155.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:37 Glad to hear it's useful. 14:26:46 H4ns: if you make any cool graphics with it, i want to see them. 14:27:05 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-hhptyhxjgyypwqzt] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:27:31 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:28:12 -!- dlowe [dlowe@nat/google/x-jwfahoopeecbyslg] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:28:13 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@219.136.215.175] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:28:37 gaidal [~gaidal@219.136.215.175] has joined #lisp 14:28:40 sogeking99 [5ac58a4e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.90.197.138.78] has joined #lisp 14:28:44 Xach: it is really just business documents, but it saved my ass. i'm combining xsl-fo and svg. as svg does not typeset properly, i do the horizontal positioning from lisp using ttf font metrics. it looks terrific now :) 14:29:06 -!- aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 14:29:07 sweet 14:29:37 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 14:29:42 rvirding [~chatzilla@c-3c90e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 14:30:15 hey guys, im trying to learn clisp, using the book 'land of lisp' i have a hard time understanding this function, particularly 'ash' (defun guess-my-number () (ash (+ *small* *big*) -1)) 14:30:34 clhs ash 14:30:42 average of two numbers 14:30:51 are you trying to learn Common Lisp? 14:31:02 yeah 14:31:04 do you understand binary arithmetic? 14:31:12 because clisp is not how "Common Lisp" is abbreviated 14:31:27 not really 14:31:44 read a tutorial on binary, and then read the hyperspec on ash. 14:31:45 yeah sorry, its the compiler isn't it 14:32:42 you can replace ash with (truncate (+ *small* *big*) 2) 14:33:44 rme [~rme@50.43.135.89] has joined #lisp 14:33:51 gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:54 if the book uses ASH without explaining what it is, then throw such a book away 14:34:11 dlowe [dlowe@nat/google/x-uidjsuatlawcvhfw] has joined #lisp 14:35:08 wolfpython [~wolf@180.110.178.121] has joined #lisp 14:35:24 stassats: i don't think it's unreasonable to write a book with an assumption that the reader knows (or the book tells him) where to find docs 14:35:30 in this case small is 1 and big is 100, so ash takes the sum of 1 + 100, and subtracts 1? 14:35:45 http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_ash.htm 14:35:49 no, divides by 2 14:35:54 ^^-- hyperspec on ash 14:36:03 more accurately: shifts the number one bit to the right 14:36:17 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-183-218-10.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:18 which is, for positivie numbers, equivalent to division by 2 14:36:20 zvrba: no, it's unreasonable for a book for beginners 14:36:45 and why on earth any book for beginners would even use ASH for division? even C people don't do that anymore 14:36:58 stassats: i'm not familiar with the book. but you can be a beginner in CL, but still be familiar with methods of programming. 14:37:36 stassats: yes, that particular bit is .. dubious at best. 14:38:15 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 14:38:25 pcavs [~Adium@63.139.127.6] has joined #lisp 14:38:48 sogeking99: anyway, it will do you good to learn binary arithmetic (read about 2nd complement representation) 14:38:49 and s/truncate/floor/, to work on negative numbers 14:39:02 I generally agree with stassats on this issue. I dunno why LoL would be using ash in a division operation, unless the book is illustrating binary arithmetic. 14:39:24 in which case, it makes sense. 14:39:48 hm. given that lisp uses arbitrary precision by default, i withdraw my statement 14:40:09 CL will never overflow integer operations by default 14:40:23 Fade: then it must explain what it's doing 14:40:36 aye 14:40:54 sogeking99: does the book explain that particular piece of code? 14:41:07 sogeking99: is the explanation _missing_ or you just don't understand it? 14:42:06 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:42:16 zvrba: it explains it yeah, i just don't see how it works really. 14:43:36 ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:43:54 sogeking99: http://www.swarthmore.edu/NatSci/echeeve1/Ref/BinaryMath/BinaryMath.html 14:43:57 sogeking99: what does the explanation say? 14:44:10 (write 9 :base 2) => 1001, (write (ash 9 -1) :base 2) => 100, (write (ash 9 1) :base 2), 10010 14:44:16 it just moves bits around 14:45:33 it explains how it shifts the bits of the binary, which i get, but i dont see how it is used to get half of the number 14:46:26 what's two in binary? 14:47:06 by analogy with base 10, how do you multiply by two? 14:47:21 what is the relationship between multiplying by two and half the number? 14:47:27 take base-10 numbers, if you divide it by 10 or multiply by 10, it's equivalent to adding or removing digits at the right side 14:48:03 stassats: hm, maybe we (you/somebody else, as I have to go out) should explain integer division first. 14:48:33 stassats: (integer div = floored division; it's one of the things that bites beginners) 14:49:14 "bob, john, and paul have six apples and they want to divide them fairly"? 14:49:43 rather, "7 apples". one has to be given away 14:50:26 ... can you explain complex numbers using apples? 14:50:31 stassats: when you say "divide 238 by 10", most people will say 23.8 14:50:45 anyway. gottago. later. 14:50:48 and not 119/5? 14:50:51 sheesh 14:50:57 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:51:10 *Xach* tries the python repl, gets 23 14:51:34 so in binary 2 is 10, 4 is 100 and 8 is 1000? 14:51:35 inferior languages don't count 14:52:17 sogeking99: you can ask the CL repl by entering #b10, #b100, #b1000 14:53:22 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.181.129] has quit [Quit: Offline] 14:53:36 or by setting *read-base* to 2 14:53:38 -!- Daev [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-185.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:53:38 mindCrime_ [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:54:10 set it back to 10 after you are done. 14:54:29 to 10. 14:54:32 ok thanks 14:54:34 heh 14:55:13 the #b syntax will probably result in less confusion 14:55:15 :) 14:55:34 i'll keep experimenting with it, i normally pick things up that way 14:56:02 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:56:18 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 14:56:23 "is your code quirky-mode compliant? do you write all rationals with trailing dots?" 14:57:14 -!- altsrid [~altsrid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:58:13 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has left #lisp 14:59:25 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.153.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:59:38 sbcl doesn't like 1/2., oh well, gotta use #10r1/2 14:59:39 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@219.136.215.175] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:59:43 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.46.109] has joined #lisp 15:00:23 silenius [~silenius@p4FFC8366.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:32 milanj [~milanj_@178-223-172-125.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 15:01:06 -!- jweiss [~user@cpe-069-134-009-084.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:01:40 -!- pcavs [~Adium@63.139.127.6] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:01:53 xcv [~xcv@dsl-225-28.hive.is] has joined #lisp 15:03:16 stassats: the trailing dot is only for integers. 15:03:37 is lisp any good for making roguelikes? 15:03:46 -!- killerstorm [~alex_mizr@195.225.156.93] has left #lisp 15:03:53 lisp is a general programming language. 15:04:05 there's an ncurses library, if that's what you're asking. 15:04:09 Fade: you can program generals with it? :) 15:04:14 sogeking99: someone did do that, though the project does not look very active. http://langband.sourceforge.net/ 15:04:17 yes, though ccl accepts for ratios too, and only for denominators 15:04:30 sogeking99: also see what dto has been working on. he has some neat game stuff. 15:04:52 bazinga! 15:04:53 :) 15:05:20 H4ns is an ACL expert! 15:05:25 ok cool, i always loved roguelikes, so i might make one someday 15:05:35 *sykopomp* giggles every time he sees that package trick. 15:05:48 sykopomp: i love that, admittedly. 15:05:51 *Xach* has started defining functions named by keywords in his .sbclrc 15:06:26 *stassats* uses keyword functions on all implementations except lispworks, which doesn't like them 15:06:30 Daev [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-185.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:06:47 stassats: really? 15:06:55 i wonder why. 15:07:01 11.1.2.1.2? 15:07:16 what about editors, do people tend to use any in particular? 15:07:19 Xach: it signals a continuable condition, though 15:07:37 sykopomp: that doesn't discuss the keyword package, though. 15:07:56 sogeking99: emacs 15:08:13 with slime 15:08:15 sogeking99: emacs + slime, to be exact 15:08:28 right 15:08:42 oh i learned vim quite recently, should i start using emacs then? 15:08:45 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.111.33] has joined #lisp 15:08:52 emacs is pretty good. 15:09:29 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.46.109] has quit [Quit: Offline] 15:09:31 and you can do (defun bar () 10), (import 'bar 'keyword), (:bar) => 10 in LW 15:09:39 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.111.33] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:09:55 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.111.33] has joined #lisp 15:09:56 sogeking99: if you are serious about common lisp, learn emacs. 15:10:15 sogeking99: it's never too late to abandon VIM 15:10:53 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81D219.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:10:56 ok, vim is the most awesome editor i have ever used, but im sure emacs is just as powerful 15:11:03 srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:11:08 *prxq* giggles 15:12:28 heh 15:12:33 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: Network is unreachable] 15:12:47 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 15:12:55 you don't have to abandon anything :P 15:13:46 we're kind of religious about emacs around here. i've heard people successfully use vim for lisp programming, but I've never actually met anybody who has. 15:14:05 rather religious about slime 15:14:19 Fade: :) 15:14:21 that, too :) 15:14:23 Fade: i've also heard people claim that they prefer eating their soup with chopsticks. 15:14:29 Fade: I use only vim with CL every day 15:14:40 And have for 5 years 15:15:11 If you think you'll miss the modal editing, try the vimpulse emacs plugin (or an equivalent). 15:15:13 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-183-218-10.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 15:15:24 herbieB: you should write a faq, so we can head this conversation off the next time $NOOB shows up complaining about emacs. :) 15:15:35 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.154.81] has joined #lisp 15:15:41 nah, you shouldn't 15:15:47 gaidal [~gaidal@219.136.215.175] has joined #lisp 15:15:49 yeah i did like modal editing 15:15:51 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-183-218-10.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:16 Fade: Oh, my faq would be "use emacs. No, really use emacs. No, no, no, you want to use emacs. Still here? Ok, you might be stubborn enough to deal with vim and CL" 15:16:22 but i have no attachments to vim, as i only been using it for a while, so i will get over it 15:16:27 markskil1eck [~mark@host81-152-165-204.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 15:16:30 *Fade* laughs 15:17:49 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:17:49 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c-3c90e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 15:17:55 someone needs to make a well-edited "cool slime stuff" video 15:18:07 a new one? 15:18:22 segv's is still pretty good, but it's out of date now. 15:18:26 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 15:18:36 with soft music and persuasive voice? 15:19:07 dunno the first one on the homepage is long and informative, and the second is a bit disjointed and random 15:20:09 Fade: I think the main problem is that people here are Serious Lisp Developers, which requires emacs. I think what really needs to happen is that when $NOOB comes, there needs to be a faq about "here's how to learn lisp using whatever editor you love, when you get further with lisp, go ahead and start dipping your toes into emacs" 15:20:36 that's an interesting observation.. 15:20:44 there was one 15:21:00 herbieB: https://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/6e91e20f2f371b52?&noredirect is nice. 15:21:22 billitch [~billitch@bastille.ma3.tv] has joined #lisp 15:21:30 chandler had a faq 15:21:43 oh, it was kind of the opposite of what you wanted 15:21:50 Xach: Not for me. I'm already well into vim + lisp. I'm a lost cause. 15:22:09 the only good par when using any editor until becoming more serious is a realization "holy shit, how could I live before Slime?" 15:22:26 Xach: I'm sayign when people get here talking abotu emacs vs vim, don't even answer that. They dont' know enough lisp yet to learn two new skills. The answer should enver be "use emacs" it should be "look at this faq, come back when you know enough CL to care about the best editor" 15:23:00 herbieB: I thought the link I provided gave that sort of pragmatic info. 15:23:36 Xach: Looking at it now, it's not very noob friendly 15:23:36 Xach: indeed, it does. 15:23:52 Xach: When step 3 is to define thigns like mxp, I think you're missing about 20 steps 15:23:58 perhaps we just expect a higher grade of noob? :) 15:24:03 heh 15:24:06 herbieB: slime demonstrates a lot of what lisp is about without having to know much lisp, though 15:24:23 oGMo: You're missing the point. Noob walks in, you're now asking them to learn two skills, two wildly new skills 15:24:31 oGMo: You're just going to turn them off 15:24:58 slime has kind of ruined me. i used to write a lot of python code, but when I'm called upon for feature requests or bug fixes now, I find myself going crazy with the so called python repl. 15:25:24 just one thing: sending definitions to the REPL is a deal sealer 15:25:27 There is nothing quite so frustrating as wanting to do something as simple as deleting a line while trying to hold the whole of a new language in your mind for the first time and not being able to just do that simple thing you took for granted five minutes ago. 15:25:31 any noob can understand it 15:25:33 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 15:25:43 "restart python to get your changes" makes me insane. 15:25:43 not sure i like this book...all the lessons are making differnt games, but no enough time is spent on explaining 15:25:56 Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #lisp 15:26:01 not* 15:26:15 -!- gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:26:20 sogeking99: many of us older people just learned by typing game codes in, and messing with them to understand how things work. 15:26:25 This might be what the author expects. 15:26:28 gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:32 sogeking99: Practical Common Lisp is a good introductory text: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 15:26:55 -!- wolfpython [~wolf@180.110.178.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:27:05 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.94] has joined #lisp 15:27:06 Xach: It's a long good read, though the main point can imho be boiled down to "The compiler is not a tool to be called, it's your environment to work in." 15:27:18 assuming you already know how to program in some language. 15:27:20 Fade: See, that's exactly what a new user is going to think. "Learn 8 new keybindings to do what I can do in gedit with the mouse is makign me insane" 15:27:31 herbieB: eh. emacs isn't a lot to ask. perhaps easier would be a quick "slime-and-normal-editor" setup making the bindings a bit more normal. assuming they're developing, one should at least hope they can manage to edit a text file 15:27:45 emacs works with mouse alright 15:27:46 that book is dead sexy Xach on #lisp ha 15:28:02 I saw a post the other day on using gedit as a python IDE, and when I saw the accompanying video, I thought "Well, there are going to be a lot of gedit users hiting #lisp soon enough." 15:28:03 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 15:28:08 herbieB: i believe there is a vim frontend to swank, though? for an existing vimmer, that'd be an easy thing to point at certainly 15:28:12 sogeking99: thanks! i get a check for $0.03 every time someone repeats that. 15:28:41 herbieB: then again, you can point and click in emacs as well. It seems we forgot that it's meant to be discoverable, at some point. 15:28:44 not bad 15:29:10 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-143-20.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:23 the feature that most impressed me about emacs back in the dark ages was that it was self documenting with a live 'getting started' tutorial. 15:29:25 pkhuong: Sure, but the problem is that the editor is what you use every day. It's going to be different. It's going to be a point of frustration. Now there's two points of frustration where before there was one. 15:29:35 Xach: so, are you the Xach on that lisp book? 15:29:36 emacs has a cua-mode 15:29:48 I will keep with the book for a while, see how it goes 15:29:48 oGMo: After using vim for 15 years, I can tell you that emacs is actually quite a lot to ask :P 15:29:53 oGMo: I don't know how compatible it is with slime. 15:30:30 herbieB: vim is also going to be different for the many people who could offer help. 15:30:50 I think I've seen people edit code in $EDITOR, but run it from SLIME. That might be a useful compromise 15:30:51 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@219.136.215.175] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:30:59 people keep telling me to read SICP 15:31:01 pkhuong: Yeah, that's true. But that's why, for noobs and noobs only, there needs to be a third way. A way more similar to shell scripting. 15:31:25 gaidal [~gaidal@219.136.215.175] has joined #lisp 15:31:35 pkhuong: a couple of the hacks I brought into this lisp project my company picked up a few months ago do that. 15:31:45 It kind of hurts my head when I see them do it, but they seem delighted. 15:31:51 herbieB: if someone isn't terribly familiar with anything, everything is going to seem new. a lot of people are already familiar with CUA, and you don't need to know a lot more for emacs, especially with the menu. 15 years of practice on a particular interface is certainly going to make another one less friendly 15:32:43 pkhuong: cua-mode uses C-c, but only with an active selection .. but a "slime-beginner-mode" should certainly not be too tough 15:32:47 oGMo: Oh, you are thinking that noobs are new to everything? Well sure, tell them to use emacs. But from what I've seen, people don't come to CL without having spent more than a few years in the programming world. CL isn't exactly the introductory language for the profession 15:32:49 i started using mouse-copy recently for lisp code, seems handy so far 15:32:59 it does provide an intersting ramp. there were three of them doing that, but one of them kind of slid into emacs after he started inspecting his code from slime, and now he uses emacs everywhere. 15:33:01 herbieB: "similar to shell scripting"? What does that entail? Having to write shebang lines? 15:33:04 besides, these are people interested in lisp, so i'd give them a little credit for "i can learn a few hotkeys" 15:33:12 if they can't, lisp is going to be a challenge 15:33:17 (it copies s-exps to the point by clicking on them with the mouse) 15:33:33 pkhuong: Executing lisp from the command line. 15:34:01 so now there are only two. 15:34:01 herbieB: I must be missing something, because every implementation has that. 15:34:17 I'm hoping this is a stable progression. 15:34:20 pkhuong: Sure, they do, but you guys don't have faqs built around that, and you don't point people there when they get here 15:34:40 pkhuong: This isn't a technical problem, it's a community problem. 15:35:07 herbieB: yes: if the newbie is especially used to vim, use vim; otherwise use emacs 15:35:08 herbieB: linedit works great 15:35:16 herbieB: well, you brought up an interesting issue with pain points. the modes and other toolchains that would ostensibly deal with the $EDITOR hurdle add up to about fifteen pain points. 15:35:33 the editor doesn't matter, as long as it can do everything slime can ;) 15:35:46 Fade: Pain poitns for you, who are used to them. 15:35:47 the lowest impedance mismatch seems to occur when you get the noob to bite the bullet and accept emacs 15:35:54 herbieB: I don't believe that working at the REPL is useless accidental complexity. It seems to me it's an essential element of common lisp programming. 15:36:13 pkhuong: When did I say it was? 15:36:45 herbieB: when you suggested that it was a mistake not to tell newcomers to pretend the REPL doesn't exist. 15:36:52 but Vim definitely seems to spawn hardliners 15:36:54 Fade: this is why i think a video that just shows the out-of-the-box cool stuff about slime/emacs does that right away. M-. into lisp source. Edit and recompile your running code during an exception. The inspector. etc 15:37:02 and just imagine what smalltalk noobs have to put up with 15:37:07 regarding "pain points for you, who are used to them": http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/f5f837f781a007bb?pli=1 15:37:14 pkhuong: No, I didn't say that at all 15:37:17 which I guess I can relate to. if I came to a language and the first suggestion from the usergroup or channel was "Drop emacs", I'd probably laugh at them. 15:37:30 Though, i guess the best example is this: http://tryruby.org/ 15:37:32 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-108-198.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:47 I can't count the number of people I've met who learned ruby because of that site 15:37:49 oGMo: I still use the segv slime movie when I'm trying to underline what I'm saying to devs about lisp programming. 15:37:58 Fade: which one is that..? 15:38:03 herbieB: oh, yes, lowering the barrier of entry that way is really useful. I don't see how it relates to shell scripting. 15:38:08 that video was the slide I took back to CL myself. 15:38:19 slime.mov ... marco barringer's slime movie 15:38:31 pkhuong: Simply that most programmers know how to shell script, or execute code from the command line/repl 15:38:32 Fade: ah 15:39:04 pkhuong: So having a faq based aroudn teaching them lisp in that environment meets them half way 15:39:21 I think it's a good idea. 15:39:44 herbieB: something like maple/mathematica's worksheet, that lets people mix interactive editing and execution? Yes, that would be nice. 15:39:46 emacs/slime in a web-page 15:40:56 I learned CL usign http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=903 because it was easier to deal with that then it was to learn emacs 15:41:03 it's actually not limited to lisp and emacs, many people don't want to learn better tools 15:41:10 Seriously, that plugin is atrocious :P But still easier than learnign two things at once. 15:41:11 Could anybody give me some kernel.org mirror address? I can not into google. 15:41:23 [now's the time for beach to pitch his essay] 15:41:43 cnl: linux has the kernel source on github. search there. 15:41:48 stassats: better isn't always along a one-dimensional space. 15:41:56 Fade: linus too ;) 15:42:01 I need git, not linux. 15:42:14 finger muscle memory is sometimes difficult to overcome. :) 15:42:19 i reckon it takes only a couple of weeks to forget vim reflexes, but learning Lisp takes years 15:42:37 http://git-scm.com/ 15:43:07 stassats: aye 15:43:12 Fade: the download links go to kernel.org and the list of mirrors there is currently "Down for maintenance" 15:43:22 oh, silly me. thanks 15:43:34 the one thing that I saw was the reflexive pounding on esc causing vim->emacs refugees to engage latched meta. 15:43:41 which was often spectacularly bad. 15:43:42 stassats: True, but trying to forget vim reflexes at the same time? Maybe you guys should just tell $NOOB to go use emacs to write in their favorite language for a month and come back when the vim reflexes are gone :P 15:43:55 oops. all links are on kernel.org 15:44:07 silenius: get it from your system's package manager? 15:44:15 oh... are you on windows? 15:44:18 herbieB: you can still get the best of both worlds with viper-mode/vimpulse. Vim's superior editing capabilities and emacs' superior lisp interaction mode ;) 15:44:31 Fade: s/silenius/cnl/ - i'm not looking, just checked the site before replying to cnl the way you did =) 15:44:37 oh, right 15:44:58 nope, linux 15:44:59 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@219.136.215.175] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:45:11 actually, I need tarball 15:45:12 cnl: You can try to grab a tarball from some fbsd site 15:45:15 rootzlevel: That might be true. I don't use emacs, so I can't tell you if viper-mode/vimpulse is a good approximation of vim 15:45:20 gaidal [~gaidal@219.136.215.175] has joined #lisp 15:45:29 rootzlevel: Someone who uses it every day afte rmoving from vim shoudl be able to help anyone with that. 15:45:32 ahh. 15:45:33 ok 15:45:37 thanks again 15:45:52 is there a double-blind study which compares emacs and vim for similar tasks? 15:46:14 talks are cheap, show me some MRI! 15:46:15 stassats: don't you dare bring method into religious debates. 15:46:15 http://www.{us,no,de,it,ru}.kernel.org/pub/ 15:46:27 cnl: those are listed in my fbsd as master sites for the git-tarball 15:46:43 I tried them 15:46:55 there are also some issues around promoting a FAQish thing or movie which talks too much about Slime/Emacs w/r/t Common Lisp because then Common-Lispers have to spend more time explaining that "Yes, emacs-lisp is a lisp -- but no emacs-lisp is not Common Lisp..." 15:47:26 cnl: uploading a local copy of 1.7.6 to some server, give me a sec and check /m 15:47:53 no, no 15:47:55 wait 15:48:09 I need 1.6.6 15:48:20 then you're out of luck 15:48:28 i bet silenius put some malicous code into it 15:48:43 damn deadline 15:48:44 of course I did, but why the hell do you have to tell him?!?! ;) 15:48:56 hah 15:50:31 back to work 15:50:33 -!- silenius [~silenius@p4FFC8366.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:51:42 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 15:51:52 -!- sogeking99 [5ac58a4e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.90.197.138.78] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:52:29 lundis [~lundis@dyn56-31.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 15:53:14 am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.83] has joined #lisp 15:53:53 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:55:53 -!- ngz [~user@80.105.193.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:59:01 joelr [~joelr@95.60.213.7] has joined #lisp 15:59:09 moin 15:59:12 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:00:39 assuming i wanted to use a macro like this (define-state-machine (event port :bind ((x 1) (y 2))) ) how would i write the signature? this doesn't work, obviously (defmacro define-state-machine ((&rest args &key bindings) &rest states) 16:01:48 ((event port &key bind) &rest states)? 16:03:02 stassats: that's too easy. the macro should be able to take a variable number of arguments 16:03:28 stassats: so i cannot fix them with (event port & key bind), need some variation on (&rest args) 16:03:48 the macro shouldn't be confusing too, so don't make it too clever 16:04:04 sayu [~shark@92.82.76.72] has joined #lisp 16:04:25 stassats: i just want the macro to take a variable number of arguments and a variable number of (let) bindings 16:05:04 what about ((args &key bind) &rest states) then? 16:05:13 What Lisp dialect do you guys recommend to install? 16:05:25 SBCL 16:05:50 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-152-10.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:05:52 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-152-10.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:05:53 stassats: let me see... 16:05:54 ZAZEN_compute [~hoge@ntszok050114.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:06:31 stassats: yep, that works, e.g. (define-state-machine ((event port) :bind ((x 1) (y 2))) ...) 16:06:50 i'd rather not enclose event and port in parens of their own but i don't think there's a way around it. 16:06:51 is there? 16:06:59 no 16:07:08 you'd have to parse on your own 16:07:27 stassats: thanks, I'll try that. 16:07:33 stassats: indeed 16:08:34 -!- xcv [~xcv@dsl-225-28.hive.is] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:10:01 psyllo [~benjamin@69.59.136.173] has joined #lisp 16:10:44 rbuck_ [~rbuck@66-189-68-77.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 16:10:56 HG` [~HG@p5DC04E70.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:07 -!- rbuck_ [~rbuck@66-189-68-77.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:13:45 rbuck [~rbuck@66-189-68-77.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 16:14:04 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:14:21 seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:44 Bike1 [~Glossina@71-38-158-245.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:54 altsrid [~altsrid@remote.activestate.com] has joined #lisp 16:14:56 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@219.136.215.175] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:15:02 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:15:12 rbuck_ [~rbuck@mobile-198-228-199-138.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:13 -!- rbuck_ [~rbuck@mobile-198-228-199-138.mycingular.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:15:14 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.94] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:15:32 gaidal [~gaidal@219.136.215.175] has joined #lisp 16:16:06 rbuck_ [~rbuck@mobile-198-228-199-138.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:29 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.94] has joined #lisp 16:16:42 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-108-198.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:17:05 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 16:18:12 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:18:56 -!- rbuck [~rbuck@66-189-68-77.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:21:49 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-143-20.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 16:22:09 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:22:18 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:22:34 seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:25:04 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-220-49.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:25:43 -!- altsrid [~altsrid@remote.activestate.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:25:48 tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:10 pnq [~nick@AC81FAC3.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 16:27:27 altsrid [~altsrid@remote.activestate.com] has joined #lisp 16:28:57 OliverUv [~gandhi@195.159.235.178] has joined #lisp 16:28:59 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@219.136.215.175] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:29:20 gaidal [~gaidal@219.136.215.175] has joined #lisp 16:29:28 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 16:29:38 -!- rbuck_ [~rbuck@mobile-198-228-199-138.mycingular.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:29:52 octavo [~sebax@32.59.64.188] has joined #lisp 16:30:23 -!- octavo [~sebax@32.59.64.188] has quit [Client Quit] 16:30:52 alphameister [~ubuntu@unaffiliated/longtheta] has joined #lisp 16:31:02 rbuck [~rbuck@mobile-198-228-199-138.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:12 !seen kefka-the-great 16:31:27 ~seen kefka-the-great 16:31:33 no bots here? 16:31:33 alphameister: we don't have that here. 16:31:40 oh well 16:33:17 -!- alphameister is now known as catullus 16:34:07 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:39:34 I think minion used to lie about the last-seen time on people (: 16:39:55 (but minion is not here! omg )-:) 16:40:13 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.154.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:40:36 antifuchs: is that a happy bull? 16:41:02 its an ambiguous smiley 16:41:09 antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-1177890298.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:41:23 it's an unhappy closing parenthesis! 16:43:49 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@84-53-64-50.adsl.unet.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 16:44:13 manuel__ [~manuel_@pD9FDEA4F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:22 -!- manuel_ [~manuel_@p57921977.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:45:22 -!- manuel__ is now known as manuel_ 16:46:02 -!- kpal [eart0186@raven.linux.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:46:56 so, do any of you remember when kefka-the-great was here last, roundabouts even? 16:47:22 I don't think I've ever seen that person write here. 16:47:34 stassats: its not exactly same, ie its emacs vs emacs+vimpulse, and I would have to go back to vim without viper/vimpulse 16:48:02 there were here circa 2008 and earlier 16:48:15 but i can't trace newer than that 16:48:19 -!- antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-1177890298.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:48:35 but of course vimpulse gives you best of both worlds.. Its vim with emacs lisp 16:48:41 catullus: I'm afraid you may be the only person who cares about that here. 16:49:08 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-143-20.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:15 *) oh well 16:49:21 i tried 16:50:19 He shows up in my logs in 2010. 16:50:38 well, 'kefka' does. kefka-the-great has a couple of entries in 2008, and that's it. 16:50:56 when's the last month in 2010 he's here sykopomp ? 16:51:04 week if possible 16:51:14 catullus: have at it. 16:51:20 awesome 16:51:24 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:52:27 -!- Amyn [~abennama@64.208.49.45] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:52:40 Tasser [~freak@subtle/contributor/Tass] has joined #lisp 16:52:47 -!- katesmith is now known as kmg901 16:53:47 I'm sort of web-oriented and I'd like to learn a language from the lisp-universe - which dialect to start with? 16:54:18 This channel is for Common Lisp. 16:54:22 Tasser: here we recommend common lisp, and starting with practical common lisp 16:54:51 "practical common lisp" being a nice book on this by Peter Seibel 16:54:52 What is your opinion here on MzScheme? 16:55:50 #scheme would know. 16:56:09 *maxm* never tried scheme other then reading code, but my understanding is that its kind of fragmented, has no object system, and while each little implementation has its own hardcore community, they are kind of small 16:56:23 holy cows do ppl underestimate the importance of clos 16:56:26 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:56:37 clos? 16:56:40 My impression of CLOS is that it's slow 16:56:57 Tasser: Common Lisp Object System. It's pretty advanced. 16:57:06 jasom: not really, you lose around 20-30% speed comparing to using defstruct's 16:57:06 jasom: which impl? 16:57:08 jasom: slow at doing what compared to what? 16:57:16 prxq: sbcl 16:57:19 in sbcl my informal benchmarks have shown clos is pretty snappy compared to a lot of things 16:57:48 but the advatages are huge.. You can redefine/add slots, change inheritence at runtime, ad-hoc way, so its really what rapid development should be like 16:57:55 I should be fair: it is slow, but it does things that are very very hard without it. I always develop with CLOS first 16:58:04 then I profile and hand-tune the hot-spots 16:58:21 it's not slow if it's fast enough 16:58:27 develop with clos, once you have prototype, profile with sb-prof, optimize as needed 16:58:28 jasom: exactly 16:59:10 -!- swilde [~wilde@aktaia.intevation.org] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:59:14 -!- rbuck [~rbuck@mobile-198-228-199-138.mycingular.net] has quit [Quit: rbuck gone away...] 16:59:22 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 16:59:40 -!- markskil1eck [~mark@host81-152-165-204.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:59:51 and if you learn just a bit of mop, you can do pretty amazing things like 17:00:02 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@219.136.215.175] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:00:02 sb-prof and sb-sprof are very nifty 17:00:37 I don't mind that CLOS is slow, but it is slow. The nice thing about slow is that you only need about 20% of your code to be fast, and you probably are wrong about which 20% if you haven't profiled yet 17:00:46 dynamically add inheritance to specific objects etc 17:00:56 gaidal [~gaidal@219.136.215.175] has joined #lisp 17:01:43 jasom: which implementation you found to be slow? in my tests its pretty mucha round 20-30% difference comparing to defstruct (using SBCL) 17:02:02 maxm: It's mainly method invokation that is slow 17:02:08 maxm: on SBCL 17:02:16 defgeneric/defmethod 17:02:41 Compared to what? Calling a function? 17:02:42 which I guess isn't directly part of CLOS, but it gets used with it a lot 17:02:42 jasom: probably less .. i'm doing graphical work with lots of clos, and the only thing i've taken the time to optimize was a matrix transform or two 17:02:44 jasom: hmm for me its still around 20-30% difference, maybe I should re-test it.. 17:03:04 austinh: compared to a function that has etypecase calling a bunch of functions 17:03:19 -!- lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:03:19 in fact my logger uses method dispatch on everything, and with (speed 3) (debug 1) it outperforms log4j 17:03:35 obviously one is extensible and the other isn't, and it's an easy change to make so it's not a big deal 17:05:49 jasom: thats kind of weird, you probably hit some other pitfall there when converting functions to methods 17:05:52 well, obviously clos has some overhead over doing nothing 17:06:09 CLOS method invocation should stabilize to something comparable to typecase. 17:06:11 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@53.234.219.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:06:34 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:06:45 *maxm* found there are several cases which prevent SBCL from optimizing stuff right, like if it can't figure out at compile time what args you are using to make-instance, it invokes it dynamically, but in 99% of cases it expands it at compile time into very efficient code 17:06:54 i tested millions of calls vs a defun, and i didn't see cause for concern 17:07:05 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 17:07:19 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:07:22 and not a defun with typecase 17:07:42 maxm, pkhuong I'll dust off some code where I noticed it and post it later, maybe we can figure out what I was doing wrong 17:07:48 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 17:07:57 *maxm* problem with clos was that if you redefine a class while another thread uses methods specializing on the class, it screws up 17:08:20 so if you wanna do numeric stuff, you can't develop in same instance as you running background tasks 17:08:30 maxm: yeah, that's not a problem in most languages b/c you can't do that in most languages 17:08:32 hopefully nikodemus work on removing compiler lock stuff fixes that 17:08:34 maxm: don't do that. :-) 17:08:42 indeed 17:09:07 actually I think the hyperspec technically says redefining a defun is undefined behavior 17:09:18 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 17:09:54 jasom: it depends on the context. 17:10:00 well not "incompatibly" redefined, but some cases I was running simulation and developing something else, and did C-c C-k rather then C-e, and was like "doh" when debugger popped up and my simulation got screwed 17:10:33 well it's obvious that other defuns that have inlined that one won't pick it up 17:10:53 its not the defuns, with clos I think its the litte hashes that it uses for method dispatch. 17:11:08 maybe now it works, this was around 3 years ago when I was doing netflix prize stuff 17:11:15 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:11:20 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:11:21 but anyway most lisp implementations are more dynamic than the standard requires 17:11:38 (see also MOP) 17:11:43 the hyperspec says defun can be used "to redefine an already-defined function" 17:11:57 Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.102.194] has joined #lisp 17:12:17 danlentz [~danlentz@c-69-141-21-223.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:20 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 17:12:28 with defun its not a problem, defun basically will store fdefinition into the symbol, which is probably atomic, as its writing a pointer 17:12:41 mon_key busy? 17:12:50 but with clos, it has to reset its hashes on every defmethod 17:13:43 CLOS is essentially a giant shared data structure. 17:14:02 ZabaQ [~john.conn@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:09 its not a big deal, I just learned to run background stuff in the diff instance 17:14:13 oGMo: "A call within a file to a named function that is defined in the same file refers to that function, unless that function has been declared notinline. The consequences are unspecified if functions are redefined individually at run time or multiply defined in the same file." 17:14:18 I'm solidly in the "threads are evil" school anyway 17:14:46 threads are the future tho 17:15:14 I'm okay with something implemented as threads, as long as I can't accidentally share state between them 17:15:17 cpus we hit the wall individual core wise (unless you get into cryogenics or crazy stuff), so its stuffing cores 17:15:34 maxm: processes also work for that 17:15:35 maxm: you don't need threads for that 17:15:54 to me, multi-threading implies shared-state multiprocessing 17:15:57 threads makes it much easier tho, especially if you have cilk type stuff 17:16:31 man, SBCL would rock with CILK if only you could have scheme type continuations.. 17:17:00 stassats: where is this? i'm clearly missing information 17:17:04 coz currently to really redo your code in cilk style, you have to redefine every function with (defcilk) or such 17:17:06 google it 17:17:26 for high performance you want to share state 17:17:48 ah there we go 17:18:08 when you are doing runs that take 50 hours to run, running on 4 cores with shared state drops it to 10 hours, thats pretty good 17:18:38 maxm: I do'nt see how going from 1 to 4 cores can get you a 5x speedup... 17:18:40 when you want to run on dozens or hundreds of cores, you go back to no shared state. 17:18:45 jasom: cache effects. 17:18:48 of course had I have access to google type setup with 1000 of nodes, or a render farm or such, I may have t thought differently 17:18:52 (and NUMA) 17:19:38 also, I bet you can't share state efficiently across e.g. dozens of cores 17:21:11 maxm: the lack of continuations only means that the maximum stack depth is squared. That's not too bad. 17:21:11 jasom: I memoize stuff a lot, and some of the stuff was repeated between threads, so other things could pick it up... getting into details it was a genetic programming type system for netflix price, where the expression being optimized was a tree of various functions/data, and evolution came up with equal trees pretty often, so caching them worked out to a nice speedup 17:21:20 netflix prize that is 17:22:28 pkhuong: well maybe not continuations, but basically equivalent of C's setjmp/longjmp.. Ie "save my stack" into a blob, and restore it it a diff thread 17:22:45 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 17:23:46 I actually started implementing my cilk lib that way, by doing that through saps, and had successfully "teleported" the stack/binding stack from one thread to another several times, but it wasnt stable enough to use 17:24:13 maxm: same. The cost is a quadratic stack consumption blow-up. 17:24:55 if it worked, would have been much better solution, then my final one of having (defcilk) flatten everything into giant (tagbody) with dispatcher in the beginning 17:25:01 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:25:47 holycopralite [~polyglot@12.104.148.2] has joined #lisp 17:25:51 OliverUv_ [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has joined #lisp 17:25:53 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:26:00 well I'm not sure if what I was after can be really called "continuation" or not.. 17:26:15 -!- OliverUv [~gandhi@195.159.235.178] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:26:20 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:27:19 anyway, back to work for me, sorry for wall-of-text :-) 17:28:15 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81FAC3.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:29:29 Are there any interesting Lisp concurrency packages in active development now? Seems like the most active ones are things like Eager Future and ChanL, nothing more ambitious like Erlang-in-Lisp. 17:29:50 -!- holycopralite [~polyglot@12.104.148.2] has quit [Client Quit] 17:30:02 Maybe Nikodemus' work will open some doors. 17:31:43 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-143-20.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 17:32:39 -!- spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [Quit: spacefrogg] 17:32:43 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 17:34:52 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Client Quit] 17:36:17 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 17:37:56 austinh: I think CLERIC is still developed 17:38:04 which is a CL erlang interface. 17:38:06 dRbiG [p@static-78-8-120-130.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has joined #lisp 17:38:22 cl-muproc. 17:38:39 I looked at cl-stm briefly, but after the GSOC project ended, it didn't seem to evolve further. 17:39:18 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 17:40:40 CLERIC sounds great, but it's just an interface for Erlang, not a solution within Lisp. 17:40:54 holycopralite [~polyglot@12.104.148.2] has joined #lisp 17:41:26 Anyone using cl-muproc? 17:42:07 lately i've been using cl-zmq bindings to zeromq. 17:42:32 The cl-muproc mailing list shows virtually no activity for several years. 17:42:54 GrayMagiker [~steve@c-174-56-88-247.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:09 it looks to me like erlang-in-lisp reached a state where it was fairly useful 17:44:26 although the developer seems to have gone down the python rabbit hole, judging by his blog. 17:46:32 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:49 Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:29 turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:03 -!- turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 17:52:33 -!- ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:53:24 I've been trying to do some threading work in the style of Erlang processes, using SBCL's mailbox system and pattern matching, but I'm still pulling my hair out daily. 17:54:10 Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 17:54:11 realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has joined #lisp 17:54:26 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:55:09 I'd like to formulate an abstraction that makes it more obvious if I'm within the context of a particular thread. 17:55:44 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:56:02 Or, better separation of this thing that runs in its own thread and its outward facing interface. 17:56:06 rbuck [~rbuck@mobile-198-228-199-138.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:49 holycopralite1 [~polyglot@12.104.148.2] has joined #lisp 18:00:49 -!- holycopralite [~polyglot@12.104.148.2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:00:51 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@219.136.215.175] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:01:29 gaidal [~gaidal@219.136.215.175] has joined #lisp 18:02:58 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@gw.maxisat.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:04:20 -!- catullus is now known as ou812 18:05:32 -!- Daev [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-185.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:08:12 -!- drack3n [~drack3n@89.Red-80-25-155.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 18:09:01 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:09:25 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 18:12:43 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:15:25 -!- rbuck [~rbuck@mobile-198-228-199-138.mycingular.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:23:56 -!- joelr [~joelr@95.60.213.7] has quit [Quit: joelr] 18:23:59 rbuck [~rbuck@66-189-68-77.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:28:59 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 18:29:31 Fade: cl-zmq looks interesting. I hadn't come across that before. 18:33:19 danlentz: hello 18:33:49 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:35:26 -!- sayu [~shark@92.82.76.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:36:46 -!- elfrosch [~Brnt@pD954CD7A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:37:50 it's a pretty cool system. 18:38:31 -!- kmg901 is now known as katesmith 18:40:00 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.102.194] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:40:56 pnq [~nick@AC8107C5.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 18:43:24 mon_key: ready to talk btrees? 18:46:09 -!- frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-96-233.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:46:31 elfrosch [~Brnt@pD954CD7A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:08 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:50:30 -!- pnq [~nick@AC8107C5.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:52:40 lnostdal [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 18:53:19 Fade: how do you deal with errors and the debugger in worker instances? 18:53:25 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:55:52 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:56:52 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 18:58:46 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:59:52 with zmq? 19:02:23 I set up condition handlers 19:02:27 Daev [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-185.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:02:45 when I'm testing I work inside one image. 19:09:24 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:09:27 tessier [~treed@216.105.40.125] has joined #lisp 19:10:27 SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 19:13:54 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:14:26 -!- elfrosch [~Brnt@pD954CD7A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:15:58 -!- gcentauri [~gcentauri@76.85.193.191] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:16:12 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 19:16:14 TeMPOraL [~user@cpc1-oxfd18-2-0-cust444.4-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 19:17:20 gcentauri [~gcentauri@76-85-193-191.cable.inebraska.com] has joined #lisp 19:17:58 -!- sharpobject is now known as ABO-ALI 19:18:52 -!- alvis [~alvis@tx-71-2-122-27.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:20:11 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:22:21 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 19:25:19 woodz [~wooodz@host109-150-109-213.range109-150.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:25:31 Admin12312 [~Admin@202.152.172.155] has joined #lisp 19:29:24 -!- pigeons [~tielk@67-197-48-106.fm.dyn.cm.comporium.net] has left #lisp 19:32:01 alvis [~alvis@tx-71-2-122-27.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:10 elfrosch [~Brnt@pD954CD7A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:21 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: cold coffee (late day at work!) is to be replaced by cold beer .. cya laters!] 19:33:22 -!- Bike1 [~Glossina@71-38-158-245.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:33:41 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-158-245.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:35:04 anak_baru [~Admin@202.152.173.230] has joined #lisp 19:35:49 austinh: would not you be reinventing CLOS with pattern matching? 19:36:54 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-092-096.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 19:36:58 -!- elfrosch [~Brnt@pD954CD7A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:37:02 marsell [~marsell@120.20.53.130] has joined #lisp 19:37:05 maxm: I'm not seeing the connection. When you say CLOS, are you referring to method dispatching? 19:37:20 yea.. it already basically does pattern matching on the types of args 19:37:29 -!- Admin12312 [~Admin@202.152.172.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:38:23 -!- ou812 is now known as ou812|zZz 19:39:50 pattern matching? fare-matcher? 19:40:17 that's not usually what people mean when they say pattern matching 19:41:03 *maxm* reads up on his erlang a bit, coz I honestly forgot how it worked 19:41:09 depends on the context, i think erlang-style matching was the topic 19:41:38 erlang-style matching is a fairly trivial operation for a lisp 19:44:54 hmm erlang receive with pattern match reminds me of (destructuring-case) macro in slime 19:46:23 -!- manuel_ [~manuel_@pD9FDEA4F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: manuel_] 19:46:37 -!- anak_baru [~Admin@202.152.173.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:48:07 maxm: It's possible that I could use generic functions to do what I want, but I would still need other scaffolding and explicit dispatching code to emulate how pattern matching is used in Erlang. 19:49:15 austinh: yea I see it now.. probably look into destructuring-case in slime, thats the first thing that comes into my head 19:49:29 that and ada threads wit entries and stuff 19:50:02 maxm: Thanks, but this isn't the part I'm struggling with. 19:50:09 which one is it? 19:51:58 Designing concurrency primitives that are easy to reason about. 19:52:13 -!- gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:54:22 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-152-10.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:54:23 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-152-10.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:54:42 well depends what you trying to accomplish.. To me cilk seems to have the most natural way of expressing concurrency, don't know whats the official name for it, fork/join? 19:55:30 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-146-30.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:55:43 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-146-30.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:55:50 map/reduce? 19:58:07 I'm more interested in long-running "servers", like Erlang's processes and gen_server. 19:59:23 (defcilk pmap (func seq) (if (< (length seq) 1) (map func seq)) (let ((1st (spawn pmap (1st-half-of seq))) (2nd (spawn pmap (2nd-half-of seq)))) (sync) (append 1st 2nd))) 19:59:38 works like a charm 20:00:12 should be < 2 there 20:02:35 it should be easy inside same lisp, if you intend to have multiple lisp processes then its a bit harder as you have to select your communication library (ie mqseries or just raw sysv ipc, or sockets), and serialization protocol 20:03:08 *maxm* had very good luck with cl-store.. Just give it a root, and it will roll everything under it into a blob handling circular refs and whatsnot 20:04:00 using already existing persistence solutions is boring 20:04:28 you can't reinvent everything from scratch.. look at donald knuth 20:05:11 sometimes it's easier to reinvent, besides, it's fun 20:05:22 _danb_ [~user@124-149-186-129.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 20:05:25 well who am I to critisize 20:05:45 *maxm* has tons of abandoned half-way working projects 20:05:51 stassats: Are you going to ECLM? 20:06:19 francogrex [~user@109.130.78.142] has joined #lisp 20:06:45 Xach: more likely no than yes 20:09:08 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 20:10:17 daedwar [~user@ec2-107-20-172-65.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 20:11:05 Come one, come all! 20:11:45 *Xach* is looking forward to seeing some ILC friends at ECLM 20:13:54 sellout- [~Adium@67.51.154.114] has joined #lisp 20:15:06 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:20:44 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-38-158-245.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:21:13 you damn rich employed bastards, have moneys for traveling :-) 20:21:23 SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@205.sub-70-202-237.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 20:21:34 hitchhike! 20:21:48 -!- ABO-ALI is now known as sharpobject 20:22:22 -!- Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:22:47 *maxm* is in nyc. Traveling in USA sucks now, with all the "get into x-ray machine built by lowest bidder" or "let me touch your balls" choices 20:23:40 you don't have a private jet yet? 20:23:48 no i wish 20:23:57 just write more lisp! 20:24:11 joelr [~joelr@95.60.213.7] has joined #lisp 20:24:26 lnostdal [~lnostdal@2.149.225.146.tmi.telenormobil.no] has joined #lisp 20:25:01 *maxm* is making some small money dubbling into daytrading, but it requires watching screens like hawk, and is very draining. 20:25:28 and you can't be faster than Goldman & Sach's computers. 20:25:42 so you'll be fucked all the same. 20:25:42 maxm: why not automate the process? 20:25:44 thats why I'm writing a system to help automate it, but its slow going.. I myself can't really formalize all the rules yet 20:25:52 maxm: what do you trade> 20:26:14 joelr: its hard to explain.. 99% of the time a trader will try to explain their system to you, you will code it, and test it, and it will fail horribly 20:26:21 joelr: because neither your computer can be faster than Goldman & Sach's computers, since they're hooked directly on the network. 20:26:29 So you're fucked all the same. 20:26:32 maxm: i'm not asking you to explain the system, i'm asking what you are trading 20:27:28 s&p e-minis 20:28:05 last few month are actually pretty good for trading, with markets trending strongly 20:28:24 maxm: what's your market data and execution api? 20:28:38 joelr: IQFeed and IB, I collect both 20:28:44 *maxm* has tick data since 2000 or so 20:28:53 but I only trying to do something with it now 20:29:22 maxm: cool. i'm on the mac so i'm planning to use rithmic/zenfire 20:29:43 marsell_ [~marsell@120.18.162.106] has joined #lisp 20:29:46 maxm: tick data? the periods when ticks bite the most? 20:30:47 stassats: no tick by tick tape data for whatever instruments (in this case s&p futures).. Its basically every sale and bid and ask change 20:31:10 -!- marsell [~marsell@120.20.53.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:31:10 -!- marsell_ is now known as marsell 20:31:50 when you look at the S&P ticker on CNBC, and it flashes chaging all the time, the underlaying data is the stream of ticks, which basically look like (timestamp type price) with type being (member '(bid ask sale)) 20:31:52 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-158-245.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:54 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.111.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:32:16 then you can build hourly or whatever charts from that underlaying tick data 20:32:17 and how interesting is working on all this? 20:32:26 pretty interesting 20:32:52 even if you take money out of the equation? 20:33:42 well I did not do a lot of it, I was always interested in it and "maybe some day I'll do research into it" so I started collecting tick data, and do long term trading (ie holding futures several month and rolling them over) 20:34:05 but now that I got laid off, I have some time to devote to it 20:34:30 well, algorithms may be interesting, but all those soulless sales and buys numbers look boring 20:38:23 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-146-30.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:38:36 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-146-30.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:39:20 -!- woodz [~wooodz@host109-150-109-213.range109-150.btcentralplus.com] has quit [] 20:43:03 HG`` [~HG@p5DC04AA9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:37 -!- HG` [~HG@p5DC04E70.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:48:25 -!- SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@205.sub-70-202-237.myvzw.com] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20:48:28 SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@205.sub-70-202-237.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 20:48:47 kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-107-7.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 20:49:04 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-216-210.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:49:13 -!- StrmSrfr [~user@208.72.159.205] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:49:17 StrmSrfr [~user@208.72.159.205] has joined #lisp 20:54:24 -!- SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@205.sub-70-202-237.myvzw.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:57:41 -!- holycopralite1 [~polyglot@12.104.148.2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:57:52 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.78.142] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:57:59 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 21:02:35 -!- rbuck [~rbuck@66-189-68-77.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Quit: rbuck gone away...] 21:05:51 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:06:11 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75ed98.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:06:31 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-146-30.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:06:39 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-146-30.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:06:50 Amyn [~abennama@cac94-2-87-91-21-215.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 21:07:56 -!- dlowe [dlowe@nat/google/x-uidjsuatlawcvhfw] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:09:35 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:11:21 holycopralite [~polyglot@12.104.148.2] has joined #lisp 21:11:50 wtf, in maxima sum((2*n)/(2*n-1)!, n, 1, 10), numer; gives me e (euler constant), but it should be 1/e! 21:12:00 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 21:12:10 whereas sum((2*n)/(2*n+1)!, n, 0, 10), numer; gives me 1/e 21:12:34 so why is in one case 2*n-1 in the other case 2*n+1 required for odd numbers ? 21:12:38 -!- daedwar [~user@ec2-107-20-172-65.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:14:01 -!- gcentauri [~gcentauri@76-85-193-191.cable.inebraska.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:15:06 -!- Daev [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-185.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:16:17 gcentauri [~gcentauri@76-85-193-191.cable.inebraska.com] has joined #lisp 21:16:23 aaah wait, it begins with 2/3! ok ok 21:16:26 sorryy 21:17:22 -!- mindCrime_ [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:18:09 SteveG [~Steve@c-71-195-234-222.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:14 join /#lisp 21:19:37 FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 21:19:49 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:20:13 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-092-096.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:20:26 SteveG: you're preaching to the choir! (: 21:21:43 -!- GrayMagiker [~steve@c-174-56-88-247.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:23:33 maxm: Do you attend LispNYC meetings? 21:24:38 No, too far away 21:25:20 How do you know it's too far away for maxm, who said he's in NYC? 21:26:54 -!- FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:29:28 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.94] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:31:02 -!- HG`` [~HG@p5DC04AA9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: HG``] 21:31:35 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-25-142.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 21:31:35 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-25-142.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 21:31:35 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 21:32:16 reb`: no never been there 21:32:40 *maxm* was not really active until a few months ago 21:32:52 active as in actively using lisp 21:35:45 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 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