00:00:06 -!- altsrid [~altsrid@remote.activestate.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:00:37 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 00:01:29 pnq [~nick@AC815340.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 00:03:48 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 00:04:33 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 00:06:25 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.203.107] has joined #lisp 00:07:52 -!- Jubb [~ghost@64.134.240.54] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:08:24 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.234.179] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:08:25 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 00:09:44 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:12:59 How do I load a sourcefile into the interpreter in common lisp? 00:13:12 I'm already in the interpreter 00:13:53 LOAD, and do you have a tutorial/book? 00:14:33 sort of 00:14:36 I have some slides 00:15:03 You should get something more substantial. Practical Common Lisp is free online. 00:15:04 astePC: Try http://gigamonkeys.com/book/ 00:15:36 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.131] has joined #lisp 00:16:38 >>(LOAD 'ass1.lisp) Error: Cannot open the file ASS1.LISP. 00:16:44 hmm 00:16:58 the file is in the directory 00:17:00 "ass1.lisp" 00:17:04 -!- nhonhonho [~nhonhonho@189.26.25.125.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:17:11 astePC: Go away. 00:17:40 replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 00:18:07 (define-foreign-library c-lib (t (:default (get-path "foo")))) 00:18:25 I get error that :default requires a string. can I call get-path at compile time? 00:18:35 (if so how?) 00:18:40 it's a function 00:18:40 shaggy-: #.(get-path "foo") will do it at read-time. 00:19:35 hello xach. 00:19:35 nice thanks, it worked 00:19:39 hi dto 00:20:26 i've been making lots of progress on my project, still not quite ready for quicklisp tho :) 00:20:27 how are you 00:20:40 moving quicklisp.org to a new server 00:21:13 hey cool. 00:22:38 just curious, is reading (re read-time) done before compiling? 00:22:42 shaggy-: yes 00:22:49 shaggy-: a form has to be read before it is compiled 00:24:25 nhonhonho [~nhonhonho@201.86.24.155.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 00:24:33 -!- rbuck [~rbuck@66-189-68-77.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:24:57 rbuck [~rbuck@66-189-68-77.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:27:39 -!- Deathaholic [~Mococa@187.58.180.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:33:44 Quadrescence [~quadbook@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 00:35:24 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.14.46] has joined #lisp 00:38:48 altsrid [~altsrid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:40:05 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@70-35-37-146.static.wiline.com] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 00:45:16 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@ip72-200-123-53.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:45:16 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@ip72-200-123-53.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Changing host] 00:45:16 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 00:46:00 chp [~chp@ool-18b83194.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:47:53 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A2CC0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:47:56 Deathaholic [~Mococa@187.58.180.198] has joined #lisp 00:49:16 What sort of thing can trigger a floating-point-overflow? 00:49:52 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:50:26 I'm thinking ILC 2012, Boulder. Who's with me? 00:50:31 JO_KING [~aaaaaaa@adsl-108-80-230-80.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:55:00 sellout_, Boulder? I'd go. 00:55:24 Ralith: division by tiny values, usually. 00:56:23 pkhuong: I'm getting it on one computer but not another, running identical code 00:56:47 computer failing is x86-64, other is just x86 00:57:16 tsuru [~charlie@50.9.237.217] has joined #lisp 00:58:35 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 00:59:30 -!- pavelludiq [~pavelludi@87.246.58.193] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:59:37 it's probably your fmod by a single-float-epsilon. x87 works with 64 or 80 bit floats internally. 01:00:03 kay 01:00:04 hm 01:00:45 seems simpler to me to branch around the fmod than to pass a nearly just as tiny value. 01:01:45 -!- rbuck [~rbuck@66-189-68-77.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:02:00 yeah, I'd already added that for 0 01:02:03 guess I just need to make it fuzzier 01:02:07 rbuck [~rbuck@66-189-68-77.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:02:11 incidentally, this is my test case: http://k.min.us/jbosIcoJd6jW7Z.png 01:02:27 ah dammit the site downscaled it 01:03:08 http://ralith.com/test.png 01:03:46 pkhuong: would testing if y is withing single-float-epsilon of 0 do the trick? 01:04:18 depends on the value of x. 01:04:35 should generally be fairly small 01:04:40 values above 10.0 rare 01:04:44 -!- spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:04:47 just choose something small. 01:04:48 (in absolute terms) 01:04:54 'kay 01:05:16 say 1e-10. It's not like the mod is very meaningful then. 01:05:24 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:06:15 -!- pnq [~nick@AC815340.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:07:06 -!- astePC [~astePC@unaffiliated/aste] has quit [Quit: Hasta la vista, baby.] 01:08:39 hm 01:10:07 doesn't seem to be working 01:12:24 you can also play with the flags. 01:12:44 mask out all of these errors and just get inf and nan in the end. 01:12:51 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.187.139] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:14:11 Mococa [~Mococa@187.59.248.58] has joined #lisp 01:14:22 that would actually be just fine 01:14:52 where can I read up on the interface for that? 01:15:09 -!- Deathaholic [~Mococa@187.58.180.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:15:26 cheier [~amedueces@c-76-107-19-58.hsd1.ms.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:56 brb 01:20:50 astePC [~astePC@unaffiliated/aste] has joined #lisp 01:21:27 -!- sellout_ [~rooms@c-98-245-161-7.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Rooms  iPhone IRC Client  http://www.roomsapp.mobi] 01:21:46 sellout_ [~rooms@c-98-245-161-7.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:21:58 >>(first query) S-NOR >>(eql (first query) "s-nor") NIL 01:22:01 what the hell 01:22:41 astePC: symbols are not strings. 01:23:20 err? 01:23:59 *pinterface* starts to wonder if naming a robots.txt parser library "robots.txt" was really a good idea. 01:24:42 What's a symbol? 01:25:27 -!- altsrid [~altsrid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 01:26:08 Are you reading a book? This should be explained. 01:28:00 cfy [~cfy@125.123.48.132] has joined #lisp 01:28:00 -!- cfy [~cfy@125.123.48.132] has quit [Changing host] 01:28:01 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 01:28:58 I'm going by slides 01:29:47 astePC: read gigamonkey.com/book (sorry, iPad typing) 01:30:09 Gigamonkeys 01:31:32 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!] 01:34:53 H4ns` [~user@pD4B9EE36.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:35:53 Deathaholic [~Mococa@187.59.207.151] has joined #lisp 01:36:04 -!- gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-2-150-45.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:37:39 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.59.248.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:38:29 -!- H4ns [~user@p4FFC8C4A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:39:18 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:44:28 -!- Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:51:24 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:52:57 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: 1979] 01:54:34 nicdev [~nicdev@c-98-217-188-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:55:19 -!- astePC [~astePC@unaffiliated/aste] has left #lisp 01:57:51 -!- sellout_ [~rooms@c-98-245-161-7.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Rooms  iPhone IRC Client  http://www.roomsapp.mobi] 01:59:00 sellout_ [~rooms@c-98-245-161-7.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:55 ISF [~ivan@201.82.134.98] has joined #lisp 02:04:06 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 02:05:03 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:09:22 cfy [~cfy@125.123.48.132] has joined #lisp 02:09:22 -!- cfy [~cfy@125.123.48.132] has quit [Changing host] 02:09:22 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 02:10:24 -!- rbuck [~rbuck@66-189-68-77.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 02:11:18 -!- chp [~chp@ool-18b83194.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 02:13:41 sodel [~dralston@S0106687f74a12729.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:59 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:20:22 -!- shaggy- [~microcop@76.73.16.26] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)] 02:24:31 -!- hyoyoung [~morris@210.117.152.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:25:43 altsrid [~altsrid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:30:58 -!- sodel [~dralston@S0106687f74a12729.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:31:16 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 02:38:34 oconnore [~Eric@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 02:42:39 -!- upper [~upper@204.195.141.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:45:29 hyoyoung [~morris@210.117.152.122] has joined #lisp 02:50:19 -!- hyoyoung [~morris@210.117.152.122] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:51:58 am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.83] has joined #lisp 02:54:50 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 02:56:57 gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.112.143] has joined #lisp 02:57:01 yates [~yates@nc-71-54-141-32.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 02:57:35 other than gtk+, what gui toolkits could be used with cl (sbcl)? 02:58:46 there's commonqt. 02:59:27 jingtao [~jingtaozf@117.79.232.165] has joined #lisp 03:01:36 Bike: thanks - taking a look 03:01:49 Personally, I recommend html. :) 03:03:01 Zhivago: you mean, e.g., weblocks? 03:05:36 anyone know how to configure floating point behavior in SBCL? 03:05:36 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.112.143] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:10:29 ok, thanks folks. turning out the lights... 03:10:31 -!- yates [~yates@nc-71-54-141-32.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.1] 03:12:21 Well, weblocks is a framework for html, but yeah. 03:12:38 I think that these days, if you want to support something other than html you'd better have a good reason. 03:13:56 joast [~rick@76.178.187.139] has joined #lisp 03:14:47 -!- omegapunk_ [~textual@60.234.20.206] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 03:16:51 daniel__ [~daniel@p5B326E86.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:14 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 03:18:19 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:41 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5B326A06.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:24:16 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 03:24:32 -!- tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:28:59 tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:29:10 buguldey1 [~buguldey@46.252.112.109] has joined #lisp 03:32:12 -!- tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:33:44 tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:34:56 -!- oconnore [~Eric@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:35:37 -!- kami``` is now known as kami` 03:36:28 -!- kami` is now known as kami- 03:36:30 -!- jrockway [~jrockway@2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:fe93:50b0] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:36:36 -!- kami- [~user@p57A2B705.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Changing host] 03:36:36 kami- [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 03:37:00 -!- kami- is now known as kami 03:37:05 jrockway [~jrockway@2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:fe93:50b0] has joined #lisp 03:37:39 -!- nhonhonho [~nhonhonho@201.86.24.155.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 03:40:08 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 03:41:38 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:44:41 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 03:45:20 borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:49:13 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@pool-68-161-66-196.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 03:49:16 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:50:37 oconnore [~Eric@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 03:53:05 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-hhgzdwzstyknkews] has joined #lisp 03:53:49 -!- jingtao [~jingtaozf@117.79.232.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:55:02 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 04:00:38 -!- buguldey1 [~buguldey@46.252.112.109] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:00:52 buguldey1 [~buguldey@46.252.112.109] has joined #lisp 04:01:47 -!- buguldey1 [~buguldey@46.252.112.109] has quit [Client Quit] 04:01:52 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:02:08 buguldey [~buguldey@46.252.112.109] has joined #lisp 04:03:33 -!- sellout_ [~rooms@c-98-245-161-7.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Rooms  iPhone IRC Client  http://www.roomsapp.mobi] 04:05:10 Ralith: What kind of floating-point behavior? 04:06:09 rtoym: whether to error or NaN/inf, mainly 04:06:41 Ralith: Probably something like (set-floating-point-modes :traps nil) 04:07:43 That turns off everything, so NaN/Inf gets propagated through the computations. I find that particularly annoying when program prints out NaN for the answer(s). 04:08:45 Anyone know why the repl buffer would stop scrolling with output? Or, how to correct that? 04:09:27 rtoym: thanks. In my case that would only account for a single pixel, and problems are unlikely to recur 04:09:39 though 04:09:43 how do I filter out NaNs? 04:09:57 that is to say 04:10:14 how do I check for a NaN for the purpose of replacing it with a fixed value 04:11:20 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:11:26 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:12:08 Mococa [~Mococa@187.59.207.151] has joined #lisp 04:12:20 rtoym: hm, I still seem to be getting FLOATING-POINT-OVERFLOW 04:12:29 Ralith: I think that's tricky in general. 04:13:18 I recall one trick from my C days 04:13:28 (if (/= x x)) 04:14:19 If you're going to do that, why not just use handler-bind/handler-case? 04:14:51 Ralith: What OS are you running on? Overflows should not happen. (Maybe threading is getting in the way?) 04:14:52 good point! 04:15:09 -!- Deathaholic [~Mococa@187.59.207.151] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:15:16 rtoym: linux x86-64, but I've made a lot of declarations which may be posing an issue 04:15:57 though 04:16:07 removing the most questionable of those has no effect 04:16:11 That shouldn't matter. (* 1d300 1d300) should not overflow. 04:17:30 (/ most-positive-double-float least-positive-double-float) seems to do the trick 04:17:54 -!- jrockway [~jrockway@2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:fe93:50b0] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:18:01 even just doubling it, in fact 04:18:19 Something is wrong then. 04:18:28 rtoym: (* 1d300 1d300) does, in fact, overflow on my SBCL. 04:18:49 rtoym: why shouldn't it overflow? 04:18:53 with no special config 04:19:11 Phoodus: Because Ralith turned off the overflow trap. 04:19:32 Ralith: What do you mean? If you didn't set the FP modes, then it will overflow. 04:19:36 ah 04:19:46 rtoym: oh, that wasn't clear 04:20:15 What does (get-floating-point-modes) return? 04:20:16 rtoym: sorry, working with two different implementations here; one on 32-bit, one on 64 04:20:24 the bug only manifests on the 64-bit one 04:20:39 Sounds like a bug in sbcl then. 04:21:14 yeah, it def. manifests on the 64 bit one after calling that 04:21:24 that would be the third implementation bug I've hit in as many days on this project :/ 04:21:56 Sounds like you're on the wrong project with the wrong Lisp. :-) 04:22:28 x86 linux ccl mangles postmodern's comms, SBCL fails messily if it statically determines certain type declarations to be bad, and now SBCL is giving inconsistent fp behavior 04:22:42 :/ 04:25:41 rtoym: the weird thing is, even *with* the fp traps enabled the same code with the same random seed doesn't error on 32-bit 04:26:48 hyoyoung [~morris@210.117.152.122] has joined #lisp 04:28:14 Now it could depend on whether it uses x87 or sse. 04:33:02 -!- hyoyoung [~morris@210.117.152.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:34:34 Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@168.22.19.85] has joined #lisp 04:35:45 jrockway [~jrockway@2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:fe93:50b0] has joined #lisp 04:36:19 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:37:27 Ralith: Why not report the bad type declarations to the postmodern people and the FP issue to sbcl? I bet someone would fix that sbcl issue pretty quickly if it's not too hard. 04:40:17 gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.112.143] has joined #lisp 04:40:22 *Ralith* nod 04:40:30 bad type decls were onmy end 04:40:35 postmodern thing was separate and is CCL-side 04:54:22 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 05:12:39 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-186-38.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:12:49 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has joined #lisp 05:14:13 sodel [~dralston@S0106687f74a12729.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:14:40 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:15:28 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-18-10-198.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 05:15:43 -!- altsrid [~altsrid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 05:16:37 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-144-86.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:22:58 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 05:23:02 ISF_ [~ivan@201.82.134.98] has joined #lisp 05:23:39 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 05:24:23 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:25:43 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:25:54 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.134.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:28:44 araujo [~araujo@190.73.44.29] has joined #lisp 05:28:44 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.73.44.29] has quit [Changing host] 05:28:44 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 05:29:25 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@c-67-180-54-112.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 6.0/20110811165603]] 05:31:30 rtoym [~chatzilla@c-67-180-54-112.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:36:36 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 05:38:11 -!- Quadrescence [~quadbook@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:41:14 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-38-155-92.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:44:42 -!- Amyn [~abennama@cac94-2-87-91-21-215.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:49:00 Is there a function for the parse part of destructuring-bind, ie. one that gives all names that are bound? I'd need to get from (a &key ((b c) d e)) to (a c e) 05:49:22 perhaps in alexandria another library? 05:50:11 alexandria has alexandria:parse-ordinary-lambda-list 05:50:12 upper [~upper@204.195.141.62] has joined #lisp 05:50:48 flip214: and are you sure that it'd be (a c e)? 05:51:28 gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 05:54:55 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.203.107] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 05:55:40 -!- sodel [~dralston@S0106687f74a12729.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:01:39 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 06:07:40 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.59.207.151] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:08:39 greaver [~Sarge@41.138.11.188] has joined #lisp 06:14:35 -!- Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@168.22.19.85] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 06:18:09 -!- gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:19:20 gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 06:21:30 well, b is the keyword for the caller, and d the default, right? Or do I misremember that? 06:21:38 thanks, I'll take a look at that 06:21:40 -!- redline6561 [~redline65@li69-162.members.linode.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:22:05 redline6561 [~redline65@li69-162.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 06:22:47 stassats`: thanks, but that works only for "ordinary" lambda lists ... not for destructuring-bind and macro parameters 06:22:57 but it's a very good starting point! 06:23:02 yes, that's what its name suggest 06:23:08 s 06:23:19 I just looked at the describe output, too 06:26:51 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:26:59 sodel [~dralston@S0106687f74a12729.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:27:20 good morning 06:29:09 manuel_ [~manuel@p57921C60.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:29:13 hyoyoung [~morris@210.117.152.122] has joined #lisp 06:30:22 dbushenko [~dim@86.57.253.61] has joined #lisp 06:30:23 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.112.143] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:32:14 -!- cheier [~amedueces@c-76-107-19-58.hsd1.ms.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:33:29 ngz [~user@17.100.199.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 06:38:46 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@c-67-180-54-112.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:41:29 hajovonta [rav@usloft1077.serverloft.de] has joined #lisp 06:41:39 good morning 06:42:51 rtoym [~chatzilla@c-67-180-54-112.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:43:28 i have installed xemacs+slime+sbcl yesterday, and have a minor problem. indentation doesn't work 06:43:29 -!- optikalmouse [~user@bas1-toronto07-1176122586.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:44:00 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has joined #lisp 06:44:12 maybe my .emacs file is missing something important? 06:44:23 hajovonta: Hi! 06:45:06 hi sodel 06:45:11 Do you mean that it doesn't indent, or doesn't auto-indent? 06:45:29 well, auto-indentation definitely doesn't work at all 06:45:38 Does Tab indent your lines for you? 06:45:49 when i press tab after starting a new line, it sometimes indents the line, sometimes not. 06:45:54 i tried this: 06:46:01 (let ((a 1) 06:46:05 (b 2)) 06:46:08 (+ a b)) 06:46:20 hajovonta: any reason for using Xemacs? 06:46:35 yes, why not use gvim? 06:46:37 on the second line the (b 2)) goes where it must be, but the third line doesn't indents even when i press tab 06:46:41 i use windows 06:46:55 GNU Emacs works on windows 06:47:01 is that better? 06:47:12 for slime, yes 06:47:14 i give it a try then 06:47:57 Try LispBox 06:48:02 http://common-lisp.net/project/lispbox/ 06:48:04 but anyway, slime doesn't have auto-indentation turned on by default 06:48:20 It'll give you a workable enviroment with minimal headache. 06:48:48 i've tried lispbox recently but there were errors after the first launch 06:48:52 you'd have to indent manually, using C-M-q, TAB, or just making new-lines with C-j 06:49:11 of course, you can bind RET to what C-j is bound, if you like it 06:49:47 how do i do that? 06:50:30 I have (define-key slime-mode-map (kbd "RET") 'newline-and-indent) in my .emacs. (It works for me with SLIME.) 06:50:43 however, because i would use emacs only for interacting with sbcl, wouldn't it be better to turn autoindent on? 06:51:52 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gw.maxisat.fi] has quit [Quit: Byes!] 06:52:15 peterhil [~peterhil@gw.maxisat.fi] has joined #lisp 06:52:53 i like pressing C-j instead of Enter, and sometimes you may not want auto-indentation 06:55:07 Fortunately, emacs bends to accomodate all sorts of preferences. :) 06:56:24 -!- upper [~upper@204.195.141.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:58:17 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@172.Red-88-7-133.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 06:58:41 e-user [~e-user@nat/nokia/x-pgmukwkguqykvcon] has joined #lisp 06:58:44 stassats` c-j works, thanks 06:58:52 thats one step closer :) 07:02:13 thanks for the help guys 07:03:21 np, hope you get everything working! :) 07:07:01 Odditus [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 07:07:01 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Disconnected by services] 07:07:02 -!- Odditus is now known as Oddity 07:11:08 gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.112.143] has joined #lisp 07:11:19 cnl [~cnl@95.106.23.14] has joined #lisp 07:11:41 -!- ASau [~user@93-80-104-193.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: off] 07:12:42 -!- tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:12:53 tali713` [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:20:06 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 07:23:58 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-154-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:24:31 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:24:46 aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:28:38 dsp_ [~tt@acidlab.technoanimal.net] has joined #lisp 07:29:51 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 07:31:53 hi folks. i have the following: (car (cl-fad:list-directory "/")) which returns #P"/bin/" which i think is a "pathname" object. i come from scheme so i'm still new to this stuff. if i just want the string representation, ie "/bin/", for passing to a run-command, is there a nice way to extract that? 07:32:31 clhs namestring 07:32:31 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_namest.htm 07:32:43 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 07:33:38 aha! i had read about namestring, but i didn't realise it was a function. thanks! 07:38:21 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:40:03 -!- anvandare [~anvandare@dD5770BC9.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:40:27 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.112.143] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:40:30 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:40:34 gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.112.143] has joined #lisp 07:40:55 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:41:02 -!- greaver [~Sarge@41.138.11.188] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:41:46 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 07:42:00 xan_ [~xan@65.Red-83-39-56.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:42:17 say what you want about gavino but he got some interesting posts out of Anton Kovalenko about SBCL/Windows on c.l.l. 07:43:41 -!- ngz [~user@17.100.199.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:44:11 -!- betta_y_omega [~betta_y_o@90.166.231.220] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:44:24 -!- gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:45:15 gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 07:51:48 ArchMonkey_ [~ArchMonke@S0106001b63f2b998.ok.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 07:53:48 -!- ArchMonkey [~ArchMonke@S0106001b63f2b998.ok.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:53:48 -!- ArchMonkey_ is now known as ArchMonkey 07:54:01 it's like "say what you want about Hitler, but he built autobahns throughout Germany" 07:54:13 -!- gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:54:23 Godwin's law wins again 07:54:27 gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 07:54:28 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 07:56:25 And the Nazis discovered the link between smoking and lung cancer. 07:56:48 They were also health-food pioneers. 07:57:51 lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 07:58:25 anvandare [~anvandare@dD5770F44.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 07:58:35 stassats`: yes, it is like that, and I firmly agree with giving the devil his due. 07:59:47 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:00:18 Godwin's law can bite me. His bunch _did_ build autobahns throughout Germany, and had impeccable aesthetic taste. They also did a bunch of things that were decidedly less deserving of applause. 08:00:21 good morning 08:00:32 Good morning, nikodemus 08:00:53 I'm still on the fence about the VW Beetle. 08:00:53 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.86.170] has joined #lisp 08:01:11 oh well, sorry about starting that off-topic 08:01:56 ahahaha, gavino brings out the best in everyone (; 08:02:42 \o/ big compiler lock euthanasia funded :) 08:03:04 yay (: 08:03:17 nikodemus: did you see my suggestion for a potential next project? (: 08:03:52 nope 08:04:27 nikodemus: another lisper I'd met IRL and I were discussing something a "lockdown" contrib, that would let users disable redefinitions on all things for the remainder of the program's runtime 08:04:56 something like sealing? 08:04:59 for things where people are nervous about having a dynamic language 08:05:27 -!- sodel [~dralston@S0106687f74a12729.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Oh no! Bit rot!] 08:05:31 something like disabling the user-facing compiler and evaluator (: 08:06:01 that's not a bad idea 08:06:52 next campaign starting point is going to external format improvements, though 08:07:12 sadly, if you're disabling COMPILE only, you might get people who will use the sb-c api, and stuff. just plugging one leak opens tons of others 08:07:21 so a comprehensive solution would be really really nice 08:07:30 ok 08:07:37 well, I just wanted to throw it in (: 08:10:09 the big thing to disable seems to be SYMBOL-FUNCTION and friends 08:10:20 TeMPO[RAL] [~user@jiscser4.esc.rl.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 08:10:25 SETF, i mean 08:10:41 but then, there're sb-sys:sap-ref* 08:10:47 haha 08:12:21 -!- CrEddy [~sursolid@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:13:23 oh my (: 08:16:06 CrEddy [~katabolic@210.8.79.105] has joined #lisp 08:16:31 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 08:17:39 -!- am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:18:18 -!- CrEddy [~katabolic@210.8.79.105] has quit [Changing host] 08:18:19 CrEddy [~katabolic@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 08:19:11 psilord [~psilord@ppp-70-226-166-17.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 08:19:29 -!- Borbus [borbus@85.17.58.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:20:08 Borbus [borbus@85.17.58.106] has joined #lisp 08:20:21 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 08:20:51 pdo [~pdo@217.33.254.141] has joined #lisp 08:24:09 am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.83] has joined #lisp 08:27:20 -!- acieroid [~acieroid@wtf.awesom.eu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:27:36 acieroid [~acieroid@wtf.awesom.eu] has joined #lisp 08:28:54 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:29:48 -!- tsuru [~charlie@50.9.237.217] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:30:06 tsuru [~charlie@50.9.237.217] has joined #lisp 08:30:53 spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has joined #lisp 08:30:59 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:32:05 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 08:35:41 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@173.239.83.228] has joined #lisp 08:36:30 -!- Sa[i]nT [~SainT_on@fl-67-235-178-42.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:36:36 y3llow_ [~y3llow@111-240-174-123.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 08:36:49 -!- benny [~benny@i577A218C.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:37:57 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@173.239.83.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:38:37 -!- y3llow [~y3llow@111-240-174-123.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:38:48 -!- y3llow_ is now known as y3llow 08:44:23 -!- MikeSeth [~me@unaffiliated/mikeseth] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:45:45 MikeSeth [~me@174-143-244-95.static.cloud-ips.com] has joined #lisp 08:46:44 ZabaQ [~john.conn@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 08:47:14 -!- tic [~tic@c83-249-153-117.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:47:35 Amyn [~abennama@62.23.212.20] has joined #lisp 08:48:44 rstandy [~rastandy@93-63-185-248.ip29.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:48:46 tic [~tic@c83-249-198-162.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 08:55:22 hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:57:03 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:57:10 -!- DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:57:33 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:58:36 tfb [~tfb@80.238.0.145] has joined #lisp 09:00:28 hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:00:32 DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has joined #lisp 09:01:19 upper [~upper@204.195.141.62] has joined #lisp 09:02:09 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:06:11 ngz [~user@17.100.199.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 09:11:14 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:11:37 ZabaQ [~john.conn@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 09:14:09 -!- rstandy [~rastandy@93-63-185-248.ip29.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:14:15 -!- nikodemus changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: SBCL 1.0.51, ABCL 0.26.2, anaphora 0.9.4, SBCL officially in Git, slime-indentation changes in CVS, usocket 0.5.2 09:15:22 rstandy [~rastandy@93-63-185-248.ip29.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:16:05 nikodemus: my ql says usocket at 0.5.3, btw 09:16:48 -!- tali713` is now known as tali713 09:17:36 -!- manuel_ [~manuel@p57921C60.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: manuel_] 09:19:36 markskilbeck [~user@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 09:23:56 ehu [~ehuels@109.34.177.165] has joined #lisp 09:24:15 ehu: Hi! 09:24:27 Now that cl-unicode is fixed, how about a new release? 09:31:24 -!- upper [~upper@204.195.141.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:33:45 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 09:34:17 -!- nikodemus changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . 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[~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 10:51:47 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:53:04 rstandy [~rastandy@93-63-185-248.ip29.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 10:55:07 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 10:55:38 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.34.177.165] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:59:27 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-130-252.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:00:36 HET2 [~diman@cpc12-cdif12-2-0-cust276.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:01:52 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:02:28 antifuchs: personally, for lockdown, I'd make global definition database read only... and lock in sb-c :) 11:06:31 dacoda [~user@gate.cdc.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 11:08:49 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-130-252.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 11:09:15 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@172.Red-88-7-133.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 11:09:41 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-130-252.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:09:56 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-176-189.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 11:13:22 -!- rbuck [~rbuck@66-189-68-77.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:15:31 rbuck [~rbuck@66-189-68-77.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 11:23:44 -!- darkf [~darkf_dix@unaffiliated/darkf] has quit [Quit: =3] 11:27:16 nicdev [~nicdev@c-98-217-188-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:28:05 -!- anvandare [~anvandare@dD5770F44.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:30:16 ehu [~ehuels@109.33.52.194] has joined #lisp 11:30:31 pnq [~nick@AC81A12E.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 11:30:43 flip214: hi! 11:30:57 flip214: exactly! We're planning for one this weekend. 11:31:16 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-hhgzdwzstyknkews] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:31:17 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 11:31:38 ehu: thanks 11:31:38 maxm: re hu.dwim headaches: I think you are much better off if you copy the "darcs get ..." lines of the 'live' repos from the install guide at http://dwim.hu 11:32:01 -!- JO_KING [~aaaaaaa@adsl-108-80-230-80.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:32:45 ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has joined #lisp 11:32:53 welcome. There's a lot of nice stuff in the new release. see http://trac.common-lisp.net/armedbear/browser/trunk/abcl/CHANGES 11:33:35 maxm: also note that I've fixed the ff issues meanwhile... ;) 11:33:54 ah ok. I just wanted to briefly check out your code 11:34:35 *maxm* is considering cleaning/up releasing some of his libraries, but I don't want to add to proliferation, so wanted to check out if your stuff is usable 11:34:48 that ff issue was long bugging me. it was basically a ff bug (getAttribute didn't return an attr without a namespace) 11:34:51 ie I think my logging library is pretty awesome, but there are already 6 of them 11:35:17 -!- buguldey [~buguldey@46.252.112.109] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:35:35 buguldey [~buguldey@46.252.112.109] has joined #lisp 11:36:28 maxm: I could see how a lib could better than our logging lib when it comes to defining log channels and configuring them. but it serves us well (it has compile-time levels to get eliminated completely, and it has multi-threaded cached file appender support) 11:36:53 ah, mine is a bit more sophisticated but lacks sophisticated appenders 11:38:04 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-186-38.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:38:12 its basically log4j like, care was taken to write for performance, so it outperforms log4j by around 50%, it does not cons, other then the code that actually creates log values (ie it writes directly to the stream) 11:38:25 I would fancy using a logging lib that works based on a variable number of message qualifiers, and appends based on a boolean expression on them. but I want to be able to eliminate it at compile-time, which I haven't seen in any of the fancy ones I've checked 11:39:33 why eliminate, the logger enabled/disabled check duing runtime compiles to 1 global var access and 1 branch 11:39:56 Sa[i]nT [~SainT_on@fl-67-235-178-42.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 11:40:29 TOO SLOW 11:40:30 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-130-252.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 11:41:01 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.112.143] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:41:55 well, in our lib it's a bit more (generic, etc), and in other fancy libs it's even more. and there are places where that's slow, like the dribble messages in the request processing of a web server... 11:42:11 -!- Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:43:16 anvandare [~anvandare@78-22-144-210.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 11:43:32 Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #lisp 11:43:52 -!- Sa[i]nT [~SainT_on@fl-67-235-178-42.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:44:40 -!- tsuru [~charlie@50.9.237.217] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:44:41 *attila_lendvai* checked reiterate and it loads fine and tests run with some expected failures 11:47:38 how can i tell lisp that i am intentionally not using an argument? 11:47:45 HET2: (declare (ignore argument)) 11:48:10 Xach: eh? 11:48:59 HET2: that was your answer 11:50:14 -!- pdo [~pdo@217.33.254.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:51:04 p_l|backup: i was hoping he'd explain it a bit 11:51:35 HET2: what's there to explain? 11:51:42 clhs declare 11:51:43 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_declar.htm 11:51:44 clhs ignore 11:51:44 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_ignore.htm 11:51:50 look there for explanations 11:52:00 Kryztof: yes, i read the hyperspec for those 11:52:22 Kryztof: but i am still confused as to how declare differs from other def keywords 11:53:04 HET2: it doesn't, you just put it in the block it applies to (it's a special form, iirc) 11:53:20 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.207] has joined #lisp 11:54:05 p_l|backup: is that like - a compiler directive? 11:54:31 -!- manuel_ [~manuel@p57921C60.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: manuel_] 11:55:59 replore [~replore@ntkngw133234.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:56:00 -!- xan_ [~xan@65.Red-83-39-56.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:56:15 xan_ [~xan@65.Red-83-39-56.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:56:49 HET2: it's a declaration of intent from programmer, one could say 11:57:17 p_l|backup: (declare (special foo)) hardly seems like merely a declaration of intent... 11:58:32 -!- nicdev [~nicdev@c-98-217-188-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: nicdev] 11:58:36 HET2: most CLs treat non-declared variables as special. 11:58:51 many warn about the variables not having been declared special 11:59:00 so, in a sense, it is. 11:59:09 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-154-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:59:39 oh dear 12:00:40 -!- gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:05:49 Morpheus [~Morpheus@78.250.218.203] has joined #lisp 12:06:05 hi 12:06:41 -!- e-user [~e-user@nat/nokia/x-pgmukwkguqykvcon] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:06:59 Morpheus: hi. 12:07:30 nicdev [~nicdev@c-98-217-188-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:07:32 -!- Morpheus [~Morpheus@78.250.218.203] has quit [Client Quit] 12:10:18 Posterdati, no, just a regular-sized spy :) 12:10:49 -!- buguldey [~buguldey@46.252.112.109] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:11:23 -!- nicdev [~nicdev@c-98-217-188-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:11:46 buguldey [~buguldey@46.252.112.109] has joined #lisp 12:12:20 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:12:40 -!- buguldey [~buguldey@46.252.112.109] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:12:58 buguldey [~buguldey@46.252.112.109] has joined #lisp 12:13:15 -!- H4ns` is now known as H4ns 12:13:25 -!- buguldey [~buguldey@46.252.112.109] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:16:07 weoiifjewoijfwoe [46b3a3a8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.179.163.168] has joined #lisp 12:16:15 -!- weoiifjewoijfwoe is now known as lithper 12:16:27 -!- lithper is now known as awannabelithper 12:24:45 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-160-75.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:25:51 e-user 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has joined #lisp 13:01:02 e-user [~e-user@nat/nokia/x-gkxrbwtbydjyajje] has joined #lisp 13:03:16 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:04:38 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 13:06:41 nhonhonho [~nhonhonho@201.86.37.25.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 13:11:31 -!- buguldey [~buguldey@46.252.116.223] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:12:14 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-6-126.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:12:21 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-143-87.w90-26.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:13:16 tsuru [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:14:24 hi folks 13:14:41 i'm hitting a SB-IMPL::INVALID-UTF8-STARTER-BYTE error and it's throwing me in the debugger :/ 13:16:08 You're hitting that doing what? 13:16:39 parsing a filename 13:16:50 one moment, i'll throw the code up 13:17:14 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:17:36 http://technoanimal.net/test.txt 13:17:48 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 13:17:57 the error seems to be in the function extract-pdf-info 13:19:52 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-160-75.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:20:10 dsp_: Are you dealing with any funny filenames? 13:20:15 dsp_: either the file name or the output of pdfinfo contain an invalid utf-8 sequence, is my guess. 13:20:28 -!- TeMPO[RAL] [~user@jiscser4.esc.rl.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: (setq *procrastination-mode* nil)] 13:20:45 antoszka: yes. 13:20:59 i wonder, is there a way to handle it? 13:21:03 dsp_: The function works for me without problems. 13:21:15 i don't have control over the file names that the function will take unfortunately 13:21:17 -!- MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-185.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:21:32 but yes, my friend provided the file that causes it 13:21:35 dsp_: Is the filesystem mounted with correct translation and all that? 13:21:42 Örjan Hallberg, Olle Johansson - Sleep on the right side - Get cancer on the left.pdf 13:21:53 he sent it to me in the mail, so i'll save locally and test, and then see 13:22:09 regardless however, i wonder, is there a way to handle such failures gracefully? i'm sort of new to this :) 13:22:41 dsp_: CL-USER> (extract-pdf-info (list "/home/antoni/¹.pdf")) 13:22:41 (("/home/antoni/¹.pdf" . 13:22:47 dsp_: it really depends on what you mean by gracefully 13:22:59 dsp_: Works fine with funny filenames here. Must be a filesystem translation problem IMO. 13:23:11 H4ns: i'm happy skipping the one that failed, for example 13:23:17 it's not a critical error to not deal with a file 13:23:23 dsp_: look at cl:handler-case 13:24:07 thanks. yeah, i suspect it's an error with his filesystem settings, since when he emailed it to me and i saved it locally it worked 13:24:12 -!- rbuck [~rbuck@66-189-68-77.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:24:13 either that or gmail nicely rewrites it ;) 13:25:01 rbuck [~rbuck@66-189-68-77.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 13:25:20 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.158.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:25:30 *Xach* is very sad whenever he sees ql:quickload in a source file 13:25:46 *blush* 13:25:58 hey, i comment it out when i'm shipping! ;) 13:26:20 Xach: What's the proper way? ql:quickload interactively, and then (require foo) in the sauce code? 13:26:41 antoszka: :depends-on in the .asd 13:26:43 antoszka: use quicklisp to download code, use ASDF to load? 13:26:55 Right. 13:27:04 this is day 2 of CL-land, so go easy :) 13:27:06 I use quickload only on the repl. 13:27:06 *antoszka* still has to learn proper packaging. 13:27:26 (i don't know what .asd is yet and my asdf knowledge is close to 0) 13:27:46 dsp_: http://xach.livejournal.com/278047.html explains what i usually do for small projects 13:29:55 silenius [~silenius@pD4B9EC11.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:53 -!- aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 13:31:21 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-160-75.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:34:18 gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:26 anyone with a clue about how CLISP 13:36:29 err 13:36:42 anyone with a clue about how CLISP's bytecode generation and interpretation works? 13:36:56 I'm thinking of this specifically: http://hackaday.com/2011/08/31/virtual-machine-for-microcontrollers-lets-you-run-python-on-avr-chips/ 13:36:56 mathrick: you could have a look at the compiler.lisp source. 13:37:19 pjb: I need more of a high-level clue than specific details right now 13:37:20 The VM is documented in the implementation notes. 13:37:31 ah, lemme get tht 13:38:05 VM doesn't give you much, you still need a standard library 13:38:18 which may be too much for a micro-controller 13:38:33 Daev [~KAPITAL@nom26938d.nomadic.ncsu.edu] has joined #lisp 13:39:08 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-187-97.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:39:10 yeah, I know, but if I can target that tiny VM, then I could at least try to build something on top of it using a sort of tree-shaker-based compilation 13:39:18 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-187-97.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:40:45 http://clisp.sourceforge.net/impnotes.html <-- this needs a ToC badly 13:41:02 This has a ToC. 13:41:09 or a link to one before the huge table 13:41:23 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-160-75.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:41:31 http://clisp.sourceforge.net/impnotes/ 13:41:42 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 13:41:58 interesting 13:42:25 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.156.20] has joined #lisp 13:43:43 -!- psilord [~psilord@ppp-70-226-166-17.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has left #lisp 13:44:03 -!- rbuck [~rbuck@66-189-68-77.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:45:53 rbuck [~rbuck@66-189-68-77.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 13:47:40 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:49:02 buguldey [~buguldey@client-202-216.sibtele.com] has joined #lisp 13:50:15 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:50:28 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:53:11 sellout_ [~rooms@c-98-245-161-7.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:53:44 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:54:26 hyoyoung [~morris@210.117.152.122] has joined #lisp 13:56:11 -!- anvandare [~anvandare@78-22-144-210.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:56:26 sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 13:58:21 -!- buguldey [~buguldey@client-202-216.sibtele.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:00:33 buguldey [~buguldey@client-202-95.sibtele.com] has joined #lisp 14:02:06 mathrick: CLISP uses classic stack-based lisp vm, possibly similar a little to how LispM bytecode looked like 14:03:53 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:04:23 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-160-75.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:05:56 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 14:06:47 -!- buguldey [~buguldey@client-202-95.sibtele.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:07:07 -!- rbuck [~rbuck@66-189-68-77.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 14:08:04 mathrick: still, it should be possibl to fit a non-common lisp into a micro, though some "micro" controllers could quite plausibly run full clisp (or even SBCL :P) 14:09:10 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:39 rbuck [~rbuck@66-189-68-77.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 14:10:55 anvandare [~anvandare@78-21-54-114.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 14:11:21 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-160-75.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:12:12 -!- markskilbeck [~user@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:12:41 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-84-108-104-232.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:14:18 p_l|backup: yeah, you can fit the arduino with a lot of things, and the EmbedVM additionally supports offloading the VM memory outside of the main CPU memory 14:14:39 but its arch is only a 64k abstract CPU, which is not enough for a CL 14:16:12 ccl runs fine on a gumstix, for example 14:16:23 beagle board should be fine, too. 14:16:49 when people say "not enough for a CL" I remind them of the existence of lisp500 14:16:58 why not just use something like forth? 14:17:04 H4ns: it's still incomparable with the small AVRs 14:17:24 mathrick: right. but i'd argue that lisp is not appropriate for an 8 bit cpu 14:17:39 and I'm inclined to agree! 14:17:41 H4ns: beagle board is quite beefy platform :) 14:17:56 I was thinking of using Lisp as the code generator more than the actual language running the binaries 14:18:04 but then I was linked to python-on-arduino 14:18:05 p_l|backup: right. omaps are pretty massive. 14:18:10 and python is not really smaller than CL 14:18:20 mathrick: its core is way smaller. 14:18:23 mathrick: Python is easier to make "small" 14:18:33 howso? 14:18:45 mathrick: if I were doing very serious embedded dev, I'd learn Forth. 14:19:26 nowadays they call "embedded" pretty much anything 14:19:36 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-84-108-104-232.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:43 it's not at all serious, it's just a sudden urge to do some HW hacking based on reading about m68k-based boards of olden days :) 14:19:48 mathrick: it's essentially a very simple language with nearly every operation done in VM or in a very thin layer that doesn't need a library 14:20:09 buguldey [~buguldey@client-76-86.sibtele.com] has joined #lisp 14:20:10 mathrick: all the moreso, then; no deadlines means plenty of time to learn a new approach 14:20:14 p_l|backup: then it implies a seriously bloated VM :) 14:20:40 for avr, there is amforth which is pretty nice. 14:20:44 mathrick: no, it's actually because a lot of functionality is through FFI calls :P 14:21:02 Ralith: forth is interesting, and I should learn it, but I'd also like to explore possibilities of Lisp-based code generation for my perhaps commercial phone app devel I'd like to venture into 14:21:05 I'm given to understand that it's not at all infeasible to bootstrap a good forth from raw assembly 14:21:15 that would be a very fun exercise, if you have time 14:21:20 <_3b> lack of a spec for python probably helps, similar to how it is easy to make 'embedded lisp' than 'embedded cl' 14:21:21 p_l|backup: same thing, it doesn't really make it easier to make small, just crippled 14:21:25 Ralith: did you actually program some forth? 14:21:41 H4ns: no, but it's something I'd love to spend time doing if I had it spare. 14:21:48 mathrick: the thing is, a lot of that is stuff that is irrevelant on micro, because it has nothing to call to anyway. 14:22:07 Ralith: i did, and i can assure you that while it is fun and enlightening, it is nothing that i'd recommend to anyone for serious work. 14:22:22 H4ns: I'm also given to understand that plenty of people would disagree! 14:22:32 <_3b> lots of people would say that about lisp too :) 14:22:35 yeah 14:22:40 p_l|backup: you can cut down CL as well 14:22:43 Ralith: yeah, the thousands of embedded forth programmers that exist, right? 14:22:59 *lots* of people say that about lisp 14:23:00 Ralith: from my observation, the cl community is huge compared to the forth community. 14:23:00 :P 14:23:15 I haven't observed in detail so I'm disinclined to judge 14:23:25 just seen enough to know that forth is a marvel of lightweight abstraction 14:23:41 the stdlib is well-designed and orthogonal; the reason we don't have subsets is because it didn't happen when vendors actually had the choice to do so, not because the standard doesn't acknowledge the possibility and utility of such partitioning 14:23:44 mathrick: due to structure and meta-circulatry of important part of CL runtime, it's not as easy 14:23:50 -!- buguldey [~buguldey@client-76-86.sibtele.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:24:03 buguldey [~buguldey@client-76-86.sibtele.com] has joined #lisp 14:24:13 it's possible to make a subset, but that's why I said "uncommon lisp" :) 14:24:22 p_l|backup: the fact you have a compiler on board makes it tricky compared to C, but I dont't think it makes it much trickier compared to Python 14:24:25 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-84-108-104-232.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:24:30 which has *only* the compiler 14:24:35 *_3b* would argue that it is more lack of usefulness of a subset than lack of possibility 14:24:58 _3b: hence the idea of a tree-shaking compiler 14:25:02 <_3b> if i didn't want a full CL, i'd just make something that looked like CL rather than trying for a real subset 14:25:06 mathrick: there are more differences, even in something theoretically simple like I/O 14:25:17 or object system 14:25:17 elaborate? 14:25:29 mathrick: Python's I/O is very, very simplistic 14:25:44 oh? 14:25:50 but not simple! 14:26:01 *cough*unicode*cough* 14:26:09 p_l|backup: how is that? 14:26:11 it's basically a set of class objects that mimic ANSI C-based I/O 14:26:41 that seems like all you need 14:26:41 p_l|backup: CL streams are not actually difficult, because they're not required to be extensible 14:26:43 coupled with rather simple way Python's object system works... 14:26:43 H4ns: I think Luke quite enjoyed Forth ;) 14:27:24 mathrick: the difference is that Python simply can not implement I/O and just leave minimal FFI-based objects 14:28:54 p_l|backup: you can not have streams in CL too! 14:29:04 oh, wait 14:29:07 I see what you mean 14:29:28 p_l|backup: but that hardly helps you with cutting it down for embedded use, since you still need that C code then 14:29:43 what you care about is the end package size, not how much of it is "pure python" 14:29:45 mathrick: Python bails out at every chance to call standard library of its environmnt, while CL implements quite a lot in runtime 14:30:02 -!- rbuck [~rbuck@66-189-68-77.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Quit from iPad IRC] 14:30:06 mathrick: yes, but most platforms have ANSI C library already there 14:30:25 doesn't actually matter for real small embed, because you never have just "the stdlib" 14:30:31 you have what you bring with you 14:30:34 nothing else 14:30:57 cf. uClibc 14:31:15 on such small targets, I'd be rather looking at writing a macro assembler in CL :) 14:31:23 -!- Daev [~KAPITAL@nom26938d.nomadic.ncsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:31:27 you always build the exact version you want for your project, because having dead code around is unacceptable 14:31:32 p_l|backup: yes! 14:31:35 what I started with 14:31:46 before I got linked to the whole python-on-avr silliness 14:31:50 hahaha 14:32:16 I'd just like to hijack one of the existing implementation's code generation facilities if it makes sense at all 14:33:11 I was considering creating one from scratch, based a little on SBCL's VOPs 14:33:12 Daev [~KAPITAL@nom26938d.nomadic.ncsu.edu] has joined #lisp 14:33:41 yeah, having a library to help with that wouldn't be bad actually 14:33:54 it's not like it's such an uncommon need to generate code from CL :) 14:34:35 on top of that, I wanted a lispy low-level language without GC that would call generic VOPs that woul dbe portable between targets, and allow calling assembly directly 14:34:37 also it'd be metacircularly satisfying if SBCL could then fold VOPs back in as an external library :) 14:34:39 + linker 14:35:07 p_l|backup: I'm unsure how to make a lispy language sans GC really 14:35:27 mathrick: lisp-looking, then :) 14:35:33 altsrid [~altsrid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 14:35:35 these requirements seem very incompatible 14:35:38 also, implicit dynamic-extend 14:35:41 *extent 14:35:48 eww 14:36:09 mathrick: low-level... could be made to support optional GC, too 14:36:17 just stick to making it an assembly 14:36:42 -!- hajovonta [rav@usloft1077.serverloft.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:37:08 mathrick: well, I'm looking at macro assembler, and those can do rather much 14:37:22 yes, but they're not lispy 14:37:45 represented with sexps  lispy 14:37:49 why not lispy? i was looking for a lisp suitable for embedded dev the other day, though didn't really find anything that appeared maintained 14:38:03 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:38:17 oGMo: because "no GC" makes it immediately non-lispy 14:38:20 embedded as in system, not customization-language 14:38:37 http://voodoo-slide.blogspot.com/2010/01/amplifying-c.html <--- also, this, just with assembler instead of C 14:38:40 mathrick: _i_ didn't say no GC 14:38:53 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-160-75.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:39:01 mathrick: first lisp afaik didn't have GC 14:39:02 :) 14:39:04 oGMo: what are you asking about then when you say "why not lispy?" 14:39:25 p_l|backup: no, but it didn't really have memory management either! 14:39:30 mathrick: ah. you're 14:39:38 ...just saying "forget lispy if you don't have a GC" 14:39:43 yeah 14:40:06 no serious existing dialects were GC-less, so there are no idioms that'd work in such an environment 14:41:19 also I'm not a fan of "small lisp" type of languages, because a random lisp dialect totally dissimilar to CL doesn't really help me much in practice 14:41:42 mathrick: my original purpose for said macro assembler was to support a full CL on top 14:41:44 all it will give me is the assurance of lack of pre-existing tools to support it 14:41:51 p_l|backup: yeah 14:42:10 as I said, having a sensible semi-standard lib for that would be very good 14:42:20 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 14:42:35 mathrick: I had a goal of making it a separate lib, then using it to implement my own bytecoded CL :) 14:43:07 weeeeelll 14:43:18 I'm not sure yet another tiny CL implementation is what the world needs 14:43:29 -!- taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:43:33 but then 14:43:44 it would seem easier to just port an existing CL 14:43:57 the CL-in-CL project whose name I always forget would actually make it easy and a sensible course of action if it were ever completed 14:44:10 oGMo: actually, I planed to canibalize a lot of SBCL and Sacla :) 14:44:29 sacla? 14:44:35 oh right, sacla! 14:44:42 it's a name I cannot ever remember 14:44:54 disturbingly close to scala 14:44:56 sicl? 14:45:00 http://www.cliki.net/Sacla 14:45:19 the goal was a small image size with certain specific ideas I wanted to play with, which might be hard to do in existing implementations (like first-class images) 14:45:25 "on hold since 2004" 14:45:38 p_l|backup: first class... images? 14:45:40 how does that work 14:45:42 images? 14:45:58 isn't that what fasls are for? 14:46:12 oGMo: beach is the person with most actual hackery on sacla and related code under his belt I believe 14:46:21 mathrick: ah 14:47:27 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-160-75.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:48:44 (defvar *child* (fork-image :full t :stopped t)) (link-image *child* #P"image.exe" ... ) 14:49:03 just a simple example :) 14:49:19 actually based a lot on AppDomains in .NET 14:49:26 hrm 14:49:55 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.86.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:50:01 cfy [~cfy@125.123.48.132] has joined #lisp 14:50:02 -!- cfy [~cfy@125.123.48.132] has quit [Changing host] 14:50:02 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 14:50:09 also, possibility to run multiple images in single runtime 14:50:32 benny [~benny@i577A222F.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:50:43 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 14:52:08 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:52:28 hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 14:52:39 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-gzpnnnvauiekbdmr] has joined #lisp 14:52:58 enjoycrf [~enjoycrf@rrcs-74-62-47-147.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:54:43 -!- sellout_ [~rooms@c-98-245-161-7.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Rooms  iPhone IRC Client  http://www.roomsapp.mobi] 14:58:25 -!- enjoycrf [~enjoycrf@rrcs-74-62-47-147.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:59:41 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:00:46 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has joined #lisp 15:01:02 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:01:13 p_l|backup: btw, the EmbedVM can also make use of whatever C code you have, since all it does is basically run callbacks at an appropriate time 15:01:15 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-161-207.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 15:01:47 so basing something on it would make it easy-ish to take an existing libc and use it for heavy lifting 15:06:00 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-84-108-104-232.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:03 <_3b> mathrick: beach works on SICL, not sacla 15:07:25 -!- lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:07:50 ah 15:07:55 they're slightly confusing 15:08:23 *_3b* uses bits of both SICL and sacla 15:08:50 yeah, it seems that one should use the other 15:08:57 which I was under impression it did 15:09:05 -!- ngz [~user@17.100.199.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:09:09 <_3b> not really, they have different design goals from what i've seen 15:09:19 oh, howso? 15:09:26 -!- dacoda [~user@gate.cdc.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:09:43 <_3b> SICL tries to have nice error messages, optimize lots of special cases etc 15:09:44 CL-in-CL seems similar enough to me that taking existing code is in order 15:09:50 ah 15:10:01 <_3b> also seems to use more CLOS than sacla 15:12:18 <_3b> and sacla seems inactive (and is older anyway) so can't really expect it to use SICL even if it agreed with those design choices 15:12:37 I was thinking of SICL using sacla :) 15:12:51 _3b: how's your CL coming along, too? Do you have any releases yet? 15:13:10 urandom__ [~user@p548A5178.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:15 <_3b> not partocularly active, been messing with other things lately :/ 15:13:51 but last time I asked you had something that generally functioned as CL already, no? 15:14:23 <_3b> not really... it functions as something that can run a limited subset of code that looks like CL 15:14:40 -!- Amyn [~abennama@62.23.212.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:14:45 <_3b> but misses quite a few major features that describing it as CL would imply should be there (things like symbols for example) 15:14:52 ah 15:15:08 are you using it yet? Or is still in the "will use in the future" stage? 15:15:24 <_3b> also lots of functions that just do a small fraction of what the CL function of the same name would do) 15:15:42 <_3b> not using it at the moment, which is why it hasn't been making any progress 15:15:51 <_3b> if i were doing flash stuff, i'd be using it though 15:16:16 oh, I thought you did flash professionally 15:16:22 *_3b* has mostly been playing with webgl in parenscript and desktop CL stuff recently 15:16:43 <_3b> that was the idea, haven't quite gotten to the point of making any money off it yet though :p 15:17:20 hehe, reminds me of my notoriously "in the future" plans to do phone apps 15:17:45 _3b: are you also hijacking parenscript for AS generation? 15:18:23 <_3b> no, i use my own compiler for flash, which compiles directly to avm2 bytecode 15:18:46 -!- am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.83] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:18:50 -!- silenius [~silenius@pD4B9EC11.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed 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[~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 17:00:19 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:01:38 does anyone have a clue on how long nikodemus expects to work on all the work he's gotten himself into? 17:02:06 nikodemus might have a clue 17:02:08 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 17:02:27 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-2-150-45.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:29 Xach: yeah, but he isn't here :) hoped it had popped up. for some reason i'm eager to see the results 17:02:49 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 17:03:05 i think he's already cached his money and is on his way to some remote location 17:03:23 Finland is already pretty remote 17:03:33 it's not remote to me! 17:03:47 You're not normal! 17:04:09 it's only a 3.5 hour train ride away, but i didn't donate anyway 17:04:47 stassats`: you can still extort him 17:05:48 scorpil [~voffka@77.126.187.108] has joined #lisp 17:06:26 __main__ [~main@adsl-99-173-15-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:30 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:08:22 -!- ecraven [~nex@www.nexoid.at] has quit [Quit: brb] 17:08:44 seangrove [~user@c-24-6-209-98.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:51 ecraven [~nex@www.nexoid.at] has joined #lisp 17:09:21 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:09:26 what you think about newlisp? 17:09:42 i think it's not worth thinking about 17:10:10 :O 17:10:29 HG` [~HG@p579F7284.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:49 -!- nhonhonho [~nhonhonho@201.86.37.25.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:13:54 -!- buguldey [~buguldey@client-76-86.sibtele.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:15:46 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.86.170] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:16:24 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.86.170] has joined #lisp 17:16:41 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:17:25 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:17:39 tfb [~tfb@92.41.193.20.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:19:41 -!- lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:20:11 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@173.239.83.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:21:00 nhonhonho [~nhonhonho@201.86.37.25.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 17:23:43 ziga_ [~ziga@89.143.168.95] has joined #lisp 17:24:14 -!- spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [Quit: spacefrogg] 17:24:15 scorpil: I think common lisp has warts, but it is so entrenched that any new lisp will need to evolve rather than throw the whole thing out and start over 17:24:29 scorpil, there are a few good lisp dialects, newlisp isn't one of them 17:24:31 scorpil: look at racket, which did something like that with scheme 17:24:43 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:25:35 of course clojure is busy proving me wrong 17:25:44 eh 17:26:29 between clojure and abcl i don't think i'd choose clojure 17:26:36 urandom_ [~user@p548A55EE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:47 i wouldn't choose either 17:26:49 fortunately i get to choose neither 17:26:53 jasom, clojure is an exception, arc is the rule :) 17:27:02 scorpil: just to pile on, my impression is that newlisp is the most inaptly named Lisp out there. 17:27:18 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-234-61.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 17:27:43 and by rule i mean that its too easy to mess up a new dialect 17:27:49 pavelludiq: exactly what I was saying 17:27:49 Hello 17:27:55 well, it's descriptive; it is relatively new 17:27:56 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:28:01 it's not like they called it goodlisp 17:28:23 lots of people have some gripe about common lisp, but in the end, when your language is extensible, and the standard is not moving, what can't you do? 17:28:26 rookieLisp? 17:28:48 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:28:51 okay, I remember looking at newlisp and disregarding it about a dozen years ago, but I'm reading the wikipedia page on it. Is it really dynamically scoped? Really? 17:28:54 rsynnott, new and good are synonyms to many people 17:28:55 -!- nhonhonho [~nhonhonho@201.86.37.25.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:29:30 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A5178.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:29:43 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-45-152.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 17:30:06 i want to use it for scripting and it seems that newlisp is good choice 17:30:34 what is "scripting"? 17:30:48 -!- Bike1 [~Glossina@69.166.35.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:31:01 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has joined #lisp 17:31:54 -!- urandom_ [~user@p548A55EE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:31:59 mostly a matter of opinion 17:32:15 scorpil: not sure what you mean by "scripting" but check out guile, ecl, and clisp for scripting 17:33:12 isn't newlisp dynamcially scoped? 17:33:22 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.41.193.20.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:33:26 Fade: that's what wikipedia says 17:33:27 i mean instead of perl. moving files, search and replace 17:33:28 Fade, and interpreted 17:33:39 then I get gigamonkey's joke. 17:33:40 :) 17:33:47 scorpil: what's wrong with perl? 17:33:48 scorpil, go with python 17:33:55 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:33:57 Fade: it's _retro_ ;) 17:34:10 scorpil: don't look at me, I use awk and sed for that stuff 17:34:56 well sed and awk until it gets over about 20-30 lines at which point I switch to python 17:35:05 perl and python are great but they lack all the "functional programming" stuff which i want to learn 17:35:31 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:35:39 scorpil: python is more functional than new lisp, at least it has lexical binding of function parameters 17:35:40 moving files and functional programming don't compose well 17:35:57 scorpil, so do most lisps(depending on what you mean by FP) 17:35:59 scorpil: well, for system integration stuff, which tends to be all side-effects, that paradigm is probably not the best one. 17:37:13 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.207] has joined #lisp 17:37:33 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.237] has joined #lisp 17:37:49 scorpil: you could try haskell. I have a coworker who writes all his scripting stuff in that, and it's definitely functional. Might be a steep learning curve though 17:38:05 -!- Jubb [~ghost@64.134.240.54] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:39:05 so, FP labguages is best for equatations, mathematicians? 17:39:51 *fp -> functional 17:40:01 I wouldn't say that 17:40:05 it's good for a lot of things 17:40:10 some people swear by it 17:40:17 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 17:40:42 There's a language actually called FP, may not want to use that acronym 17:40:44 agspathis [~user@ppp-94-64-140-248.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 17:40:50 there are all kinds of crazy people out there 17:40:50 -!- betta_y_omega [~betta_y_o@90.166.231.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:40:58 scorpil, FP techniques are good in certain situations, pure FP languages seem excessively pedantic to me 17:41:12 FP is only a theoretical language though iirc 17:42:34 personally it's rather the lazyness that bothers me 17:43:15 scorpil: functional programming is fairly good for a lot of stuff. However most scripting is more like "do this, then do this, then do this, then do this" it's 90% side-effects, so what's the point? 17:43:35 Guthur [~Guthur@212.183.140.50] has joined #lisp 17:43:36 #lispgames 17:43:39 oops 17:43:57 90% sideeffects? 17:44:27 i guess i'll stick with perl :) 17:44:41 a lot of the scripts are surprisingly functional 17:44:42 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:44:57 sed … | sort -d | mv … | etc. 17:45:07 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 17:45:11 what do you pipe mv to? 17:46:10 yes and sed will go nuts on '…' and etc. isn't even a gnu linux command 17:47:53 ArchMonkey_ [~ArchMonke@S0106001b63f2b998.ok.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:01 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.237] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:49:07 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.237] has joined #lisp 17:49:48 -!- ArchMonkey [~ArchMonke@S0106001b63f2b998.ok.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:49:49 -!- ArchMonkey_ is now known as ArchMonkey 17:51:36 MoALTz [~no@host-92-18-10-198.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:57 btw I just read why CMUCLs compiler is called python in the FAQ, disturbing metaphor, I prefer the Monty Python explanation :) 17:53:23 Why is it called that? 17:53:48 from the FAQ: thought Python was a good name because a compiler is a long pipeline. A pig goes in one end, the snake goes off to rest under a bush for a surprisingly long time, the pipeline does its thing, and compact little pellet eventually comes out the other end. 17:54:49 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:55:01 huh. 17:55:32 o.O? 17:57:07 This definitely made me want to check out cmucl more, how does it compare with SBCL(i know its based on cmucl)? 17:57:43 The FAQ is brief in its comparison 17:59:01 yvdriess: Simon Peyton Jones had an interesting thing to say about laziness in Haskell--while he personally likes laziness, he thinks the real reason it was important was that it forced them to keep teh language pure (in the "functionally pure" sense) 17:59:47 what does laziness mean again? I remember LoL talked about it... don't evaluate expressions until they're required? 18:00:53 pavelludiq: a lot of stuff was shaved off to make sbcl 18:01:02 pavelludiq: cmucl is much more kitchen-sinky 18:01:05 anvandare: right. 18:01:25 pavelludiq: well, it was, anyway. 18:01:40 <_8david> pavelludiq: imagine any Star Trek parallel universe episode. 18:01:42 <_8david> That's what it's like to read cmucl-imp in 2011. 18:02:16 familiar, yet different? 18:02:40 gigamonkey, really? In all the literature I read on the subject lazy or eager is pretty orthogonal to the issue of being pure or not 18:02:57 it makes certain expressions easier, certainly 18:03:17 <_8david> yes: familiar, yet different. And there are just things running around with a beard that shouldn't have one. 18:03:51 but in the early days, a lot of the pure functional languages were eager because it has an easier 'cost model' and doesn't screw with implicit parallelism 18:03:55 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 18:05:13 yvdriess: the point is if your language is lazy you really can't rely on side effects because you have no idea when they will happen. 18:05:23 aah that way 18:05:28 true 18:06:03 gigamonkey: just about all languages that are lazy by default have a way to affect "do this now" 18:06:33 they don't have a concept of 'now', or what do you mean by that 18:06:44 jasom: sure, but when it's obviously a kludgy escape hatch it gets treated differently than when it's a normal part of the language. 18:07:41 well, now they don't need it, they have monads 18:08:10 -!- scorpil [~voffka@77.126.187.108] has left #lisp 18:08:51 gigamonkey: monads are fairly central to haskell (which is the only really pure language I know anything about) they are used all over the place, not just for side-effects 18:08:57 nhonhonho [~nhonhonho@201.86.37.25.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 18:09:28 so, even haskellers don't like functional programming? 18:09:52 haskell's implementation is all but functional :) 18:10:18 the spineless stackless G-machine does an enormous amount of assignments 18:10:32 jasom: I'm missing your point. 18:11:08 Anyway, I think SPJ's point was that they were forced to come up with monads because Haskell was pure. And it had stayed pure because it was lazy. 18:11:17 gigamonkey: I'm not a big haskell fan, but I have to admit that side effects through monads isn't a kludgy escape hatch 18:11:33 iirc there was haskell before monads 18:12:01 everybody is talking about different things, oh well 18:12:02 you just treated I/O a bit more like streams 18:12:03 jasom: Agreed. It's the non-kludgy thing they were forced to come up with because of the purity. 18:12:26 -!- nhonhonho [~nhonhonho@201.86.37.25.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Client Quit] 18:12:36 And the purity came from the laziness. (The kludgy escape hatch was unsafePerformIO.) 18:13:29 -!- Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:13:43 gigamonkey, wadler decyphered monads from some mathematicians paper some time after monads 18:14:15 so I'de say rather, adopted monads to avoid the cludgy IO :) 18:14:25 pedantic, I know 18:15:31 Vaaal [irc2gowebc@151.73.61.207] has joined #lisp 18:15:31 people have been doing pure functional languages since ISWIM in the 60's, it was just never that practically useful until Wadler introduced monads in Haskell 18:16:17 what are monads? the wiki article was probably written by some haskler :/ it's confumbling 18:16:21 Daev [~KAPITAL@nom27726d.nomadic.ncsu.edu] has joined #lisp 18:16:44 hi, there is a way to go into function code step by step for debugging in emacs? 18:16:49 it's a way to tell pure functional and side-effecty code apart 18:17:34 stassats`: that's a bit oversimplified, but the real answer is confusing, so I can't really criticize 18:18:30 anvandare: some folks say they're a burrito. Others a nuclear reactor. It is a bit confusing. 18:18:38 or rather, that what they are used for, not what they are 18:18:46 Programs written in functional style can make use of monads to structure procedures that include sequenced operations,[1][2] or to define some arbitrary control flows (like handling concurrency, continuations, side effects such as input/output, or exceptions). 18:19:01 That's from the wikipedia article, and it describes what they are used for pretty well 18:19:34 by that description I imagine monads as (progn ( ... 18:20:16 anvandare: it allows you to do stuff like progn and throw and I/O and force the order of computations in a lazy, pure language 18:20:44 hmm... above my programming grade :/ 18:20:57 time to do more readings 18:21:31 dwim [~dwim@140.Red-83-61-37.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:22:47 stassats`, there are heavy-duty abstract analysis techniques, but they are never 100% accurate 18:22:55 anvandare: I would start with examples of the "Maybe" monad, it's the simplest 18:23:25 anvandare: the other key thing (as far as I can tell, though I may be confused) is that Monads allow you to do these things in a way that allows you to express in the type system when you are doing them. 18:23:44 So you can tell by the type signature of a function whether or not it does I/O or what have you. 18:23:58 Which, if you're into that kind of thing, is cool. 18:24:28 closures -> contiuations -> monads 18:24:28 :D 18:25:13 -> some more theoretical mumbo jumbo 18:25:16 -!- Patzy_ [~something@bro29-1-82-245-180-56.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:25:26 -> profit 18:25:46 Step 1: Use monads Step 2: ??? Step 3: Profit! 18:25:48 anvandare, if you want to understand monads, the only sure way is to learn haskell and use them in some code 18:25:55 sykopomp: -> tenure 18:26:07 sykopomp: by selling tutorials? 18:26:10 cfr. monad tutorial falacy http://byorgey.wordpress.com/2009/01/12/abstraction-intuition-and-the-monad-tutorial-fallacy/ 18:27:28 -!- optikalmouse [~user@bas1-toronto07-1176122586.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:29:12 from experience, I can say that also applies to quantum theory 18:29:23 *maxm* considers himself not stupid 18:29:37 Patzy [~something@bro29-1-82-245-180-56.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:15 I pretty much understood recursion, closures, or math stuff like integration and differentiation and all that stuff on the first try I encountered 18:30:21 yvdriess: that's because you can't find fitting analogies in the word around you 18:30:47 but "monad this" and "monad that" stuff is admittedly beyond my abilities 18:30:51 indeed, intuition breaks down 18:31:03 I think quantum theory is much simpler than monads; everyone I know who finally "got it" had the same epiphany: The macroscopic world we see and interact with is intuitive, but if you start digging deeper it just makes no intuitive sense to our brains that were optimized for hitting an antelope with a spear 18:31:26 and it's just "here's a bunch of equations, we have observed that this is how the universe works, deal with it" 18:31:30 I just don't see the problem that all the monad stuff is trying to solve 18:31:31 jasom: so, everyone understands that you can't understand it? 18:31:43 with enough experience, you can build up an intuition for monads, but no article describing them will help you 18:32:13 maxm: i don't see what problems static typing is trying to solve 18:32:30 stassats`: no, that you cant intuit it, you have to just throw out all of your knowledge of the macroscopic world, because it's really just a simplifying model that isn't how the world really works 18:33:00 -!- ziga_ [~ziga@89.143.168.95] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:33:03 you *can* get an intuition for the differential equations that describe it, and then you just have to transfer that to the physics 18:33:18 but you can't shortcut like you can in newtonian mechanics 18:33:50 haskell I/O before Monads was ... wtf-worthy 18:33:51 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:34:03 monads are also relatively simple, once you get enough experience with it to get some intuition for it 18:34:12 iirc the type of main function was "future -> past" 18:34:44 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:34:48 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:35:12 a function taking a future and returning a future? o_O 18:36:04 maxm: but i think it would be worth learning monads and then compare your thoughts before and after learning 18:37:23 I can't see what problems call/cc is trying to solve, aren't there other ways of doing error handling? ;) 18:37:31 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.237] has joined #lisp 18:37:48 but realistically, I probably would not be using them in lisp, only in haskell, and i'm not planning to learn it anytime soon 18:38:07 learning is good in itself 18:38:28 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:34 maxm: check http://dorophone.blogspot.com/2011/04/deep-emacs-part-1.html for a clear introduction to monad, for a lisper. 18:38:35 yvdriess: a function going from futur to past 18:38:39 Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:38:44 I get it that it will expand my horizons and all that, but one gotta do time management, otherwise you'll spent all your time on pursuing non-practical stuff, and wondering wtf your life went later 18:39:14 is #lisp part of that time management? 18:39:48 well I'm in #lisp because I kind of started doing my own project in CL, so I hang out here more 18:40:07 thank you for reminding I'm procrastinating stassats` :p 18:40:19 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:40:44 sorry if i come off a bit opinionated, I do not mean my thoughts about monads to be insult to these people who took time to learn them 18:41:41 you can replace "monad" with "lisp", and that will be a common impression of many people 18:41:42 *maxm* has pomodoro work/play commands for stump 18:41:52 so my bursts of activity here, are my 10 minute breaks :-) 18:43:14 pjb: thanks for the link, that one is much more understandable then ones that try to sneak haskell on you 18:44:49 -!- MikeSeth [~me@174-143-244-95.static.cloud-ips.com] has quit [Changing host] 18:44:49 MikeSeth [~me@unaffiliated/mikeseth] has joined #lisp 18:46:01 ! 18:47:13 urandom__ [~user@p548A1FE7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:03 oconnore [~Eric@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:25 -!- ngz 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[~gravicapp@ppp91-77-160-75.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:36:35 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:40 hello. 20:37:14 hi 20:37:47 are you the author of blocky? 20:38:33 churib_: dto is, yes 20:38:42 churib_hello yes. 20:39:09 its nice :) 20:39:24 hey thanks :) i can't wait to get the beta out. 20:40:00 rbuck [~rbuck@66-189-68-77.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:40:11 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:40:23 dto: hello 20:40:41 churib_ i'm hoping to make something generally usable for lisp gui. However, one of the drawbacks of OpenGL support is that 3d accel is required. 20:41:03 hey mon_key` 20:41:30 -!- nhonhonho [~nhonhonho@201.86.37.25.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:41:45 which GUI-framework did you use (i watched only a video you posted a few days ago here) 20:42:30 -!- rpg [~rpg@173-8-98-161-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: rpg] 20:42:35 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.38.98.102] has joined #lisp 20:43:28 churib_ Blocky includes its own GUI framework that i wrote from scratch. 20:43:30 dwim [~dwim@140.Red-83-61-37.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:48 i might do another video tonight if i can accomplish enough 20:46:03 impressive! i will follow your blog 20:46:33 nhonhonho [~nhonhonho@177.16.46.91] has joined #lisp 20:46:52 sweet :) 20:47:07 ngz [~user@17.100.199.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:40 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:49:15 Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 20:49:33 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.237] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:53:03 -!- HG` [~HG@p579F7284.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: HG`] 20:53:33 hmm what would be bigger overhead, calling a very short (basically a no-op) alien function, or hashtable lookup? 20:53:56 churib_ let me know if you're interested in being a tester for the beta. we hang out on #blocky 20:54:38 -!- sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:55:44 *maxm* is fixing up debugging on his C++ interface, and wondering if I should replace (sb-ext:finalize (call c side to do ptr.reset()).. on each lisp reference to C shared_ptr's with a weak hashtable lookup (so lisp side always has just 1 reference) 20:55:56 seems commonqt went with the hashtable approach, and they are pretty fast 20:56:01 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-161-207.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:58:25 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.178.203] has quit [Quit: Offline] 21:00:11 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-176-189.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 21:01:00 ASau [~user@93-80-104-193.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 21:01:41 -!- ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:01:57 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-177-107.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 21:04:42 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75c7ce.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:19 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-177-107.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:05:51 rpg [~rpg@173-8-98-161-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:52 -!- churib_ is now known as churib` 21:06:03 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 21:07:11 hi 21:08:47 hypercube32 [~hypercube@231.125.189.72.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:12:14 -!- rpg [~rpg@173-8-98-161-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: rpg] 21:14:13 -!- gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:14:30 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-177-107.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 21:14:57 p_l|v6 [~pl@cl-350.lon-02.gb.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:41 -!- jweiss__ [~user@nat/redhat/x-wcefmlffktqdyirl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:26:04 -!- silenius [~silenius@pD4B9EC11.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:30:20 kwertii [~kwertii@ResNet-33-19.resnet.ucsb.edu] has joined #lisp 21:30:53 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 21:32:02 -!- tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has quit [Changing host] 21:32:03 tomaw [tom@gnaa/tomaw] has joined #lisp 21:32:42 -!- tomaw [tom@gnaa/tomaw] has quit [Changing host] 21:32:42 tomaw [tom@freenode/staff] has joined #lisp 21:33:50 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: night] 21:34:17 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.115] has joined #lisp 21:35:03 -!- rbuck [~rbuck@66-189-68-77.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Quit from iPad IRC] 21:37:49 -!- tomaw [tom@freenode/staff] has quit [Changing host] 21:37:49 tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has joined #lisp 21:38:19 taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:04 -!- taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:44:23 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:44:33 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:45:27 lolsuper_ [~super_@pool-173-65-194-148.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:27 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@pool-173-65-194-148.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:45:27 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 21:47:10 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.222] has joined #lisp 21:50:30 -!- ngz [~user@17.100.199.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:53:30 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@cpc1-oxfd18-2-0-cust444.4-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:53:48 -!- GrayMagiker [~steve@c-174-56-88-247.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:54:14 TeMPOraL` [~user@cpc1-oxfd18-2-0-cust444.4-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:54:47 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75c7ce.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:56:10 -!- TeMPOraL` [~user@cpc1-oxfd18-2-0-cust444.4-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:56:25 TeMPOraL` [~user@cpc1-oxfd18-2-0-cust444.4-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:56:35 Daev [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-185.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:57:43 vert2 [~vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-ckeovlucsaxsgdig] has joined #lisp 22:02:35 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:02:43 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:03:05 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 22:03:20 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:04:52 -!- seangrove [~user@c-24-6-209-98.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:06:57 jlpeters [~james@98-125-81-68.dyn.centurytel.net] has joined #lisp 22:07:23 nicdev [~nicdev@c-98-217-188-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:04 TeMPOraL`: are you back? 22:11:28 -!- sodel [~dralston@S0106687f74a12729.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: A break? What is the sorcery of which you speak?] 22:12:43 -!- replore [~replore@ntkngw133234.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:13:46 -!- jlpeters [~james@98-125-81-68.dyn.centurytel.net] has quit [Quit: Linkinus is updating...] 22:14:03 -!- tsuru [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:14:15 jlpeters [~james@98-125-81-68.dyn.centurytel.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:23 -!- jdz [~jdz@host205-111-dynamic.2-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:14:54 -!- jlpeters [~james@98-125-81-68.dyn.centurytel.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:15:54 situ [~quassel@223.180.47.27] has joined #lisp 22:16:41 -!- kwertii [~kwertii@ResNet-33-19.resnet.ucsb.edu] has quit [Quit: bye] 22:18:44 dto: I think so 22:19:16 -!- RenJuan [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: RenJuan] 22:19:45 RenJuan [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:22:54 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:22:56 -!- situ [~quassel@223.180.47.27] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:23:47 mon_key`` [~user@69.64.7.202] has joined #lisp 22:24:15 -!- mon_key` [~user@69.64.7.202] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 22:25:10 -!- mon_key`` [~user@69.64.7.202] has quit [Client Quit] 22:29:05 -!- edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-109-192-059-240.hsi6.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:29:59 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93-86-115-66.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:31:39 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@70-35-37-146.static.wiline.com] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 22:36:04 -!- nhonhonho [~nhonhonho@177.16.46.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:36:44 -!- TeMPOraL` [~user@cpc1-oxfd18-2-0-cust444.4-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: (setq *sleep-mode* t) ; good nyan!] 22:39:14 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:41:15 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc12-cdif12-2-0-cust276.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:42:11 ihyoyoung_ [raster@enlightenment2.osuosl.org] has joined #lisp 22:42:53 Mococa [~Mococa@187.59.207.151] has joined #lisp 22:43:50 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.59.207.151] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:45:26 Mococa [~Mococa@187.59.207.151] has joined #lisp 22:46:22 -!- ihyoyoung [raster@enlightenment2.osuosl.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:49:24 -!- gkeith_lt [~georgekei@nat/google/x-bulhegriczwlisqs] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:50:48 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:51:52 -!- hypercube32 [~hypercube@231.125.189.72.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:56:44 HET2 [~diman@cpc12-cdif12-2-0-cust276.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:58:13 -!- Daev is now known as MeanWeen 22:59:33 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:04:54 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:18 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-177-107.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:07:00 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-177-107.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 23:10:27 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 23:14:16 CodeWar [~sfsdf@c-98-210-15-142.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:20 -!- CodeWar [~sfsdf@c-98-210-15-142.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 23:16:08 Guthur [~Guthur@212.183.140.50] has joined #lisp 23:18:18 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-69.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:18:35 -!- xan_ [~xan@65.Red-83-39-56.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:20:09 -!- kslt1 [~karl.sier@netblock-208-127-156-174.dslextreme.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:28:17 rgrinberg [~rudi@CPE001839b36a63-CM0016923fe746.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:30:18 -!- rgrinberg [~rudi@CPE001839b36a63-CM0016923fe746.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:30:52 rgrinberg [~rudi@CPE001839b36a63-CM0016923fe746.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:31:58 -!- exhausted-xoxota [~user@iracema.lab.ic.unicamp.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:39:51 replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 23:42:57 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:46:23 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@212.183.140.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:51:23 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:51:32 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:51:57 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:52:08 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:53:41 -!- DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:54:31 codelurker [~codelurke@c-65-96-210-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:56:18 DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has joined #lisp 23:58:12 -!- altsrid [~altsrid@remote.activestate.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.]