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()) does not work 02:43:35 > (cons '> ()) works like I would expect the above to work. 02:43:58 I could always write: (cons "." () ) but I was curious if there was another way. 02:44:47 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 02:45:25 -!- Jubb [~ghost@24-151-24-155.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:45:57 You mean like (cons '|.| ())? 02:49:07 Bike: (out of interest, why doesn't '.  . while '>  > ?) 02:49:28 Bike: Thank you. But that expression returns (|.|) in slime. I was thinking of returning (.) like (cons '> ()) returns (>). 02:49:53 celestica: trying to draw cons-boobs? 02:49:59 I think it gets confused because of how dots play with cons and lists. 02:50:23 -!- chp [~chp@ool-18b83194.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:50:30 clhs 1.4.1.4.3 02:50:30 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_dadc.htm 02:50:38 Iceland_jack: LOL! No. I'm just trying to understand this code and data divide in Lisp. 02:50:49 celestica: (sure!) *wink* 02:51:00 we've all been there! 02:51:10 celestica: It's more to do with the reader. 02:51:14 celestic` [~user@c-67-173-0-175.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:51:36 If you could have a symbol ., what would '(a . b) mean? (cons a b), or (list 'a '. 'b)? 02:51:43 Jubb [~ghost@24-151-24-155.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:51:53 am0c [~am0c@222.235.49.72] has joined #lisp 02:52:31 Good call 02:53:06 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2ABA9.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:53:57 tsuru` [~charlie@50.9.237.217] has joined #lisp 02:55:09 -!- celestica [~user@c-67-173-0-175.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:55:34 -!- celestic` [~user@c-67-173-0-175.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:55:45 LiamH [~healy@pool-108-45-20-16.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:56:33 celestica` [~user@c-67-173-0-175.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:59:46 -!- tsuru` [~charlie@50.9.237.217] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:04:57 davidh` [~user@f053008062.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 03:06:04 -!- davidh [~user@f053008203.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:07:26 -!- oconnore [~Eric@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:07:52 nicdev [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 03:10:41 daniel [~daniel@p508293E0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:11 -!- daniel__ [~daniel@p5082A121.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:13:56 gko [~gko@111.81.128.255] has joined #lisp 03:14:09 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.131.254] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 03:14:21 ISF [~ivan@201.82.131.254] has joined #lisp 03:15:13 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.131.254] has quit [Client Quit] 03:17:47 ISF [~ivan@201.82.131.254] has joined #lisp 03:20:53 Iceland_jack: the vertical bars are just for escaping.. the symbol's name is indeed "." and another way to escape it would be \. 03:25:40 -!- celestica` [~user@c-67-173-0-175.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:25:58 celestica` [~user@c-67-173-0-175.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:27:13 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-161-7.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:28:34 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-hbkjrpxktolcmird] has joined #lisp 03:30:06 rtoym [~chatzilla@c-67-180-54-112.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:08 rtoym_ [~chatzilla@c-67-180-54-112.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:31:14 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-161-7.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:31:42 dhaivat [~Dhaivat_P@14.97.193.38] has joined #lisp 03:32:46 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.38.98.102] has joined #lisp 03:33:37 Good morning everyone! 03:35:27 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-108-45-20-16.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:36:07 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-162-2.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:36:15 -!- wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-162-2.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:40:44 good Morning! 03:43:35 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:43:36 oconnore [~Eric@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:44:01 katesmith [~katesmith@97-89-229-3.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 03:44:01 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@97-89-229-3.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 03:44:01 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 03:46:59 -!- parabolize [~paraboliz@203.83.50.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:47:45 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-161-7.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:52:32 -!- celestica` [~user@c-67-173-0-175.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:52:40 celestica` [~user@c-67-173-0-175.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:55:03 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-169-82-70.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:55:18 celestic` [~user@c-67-173-0-175.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:54 -!- celestica` [~user@c-67-173-0-175.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:00:14 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 04:00:50 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 04:07:40 -!- clop [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:08:03 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:08:10 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.38.98.102] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:08:48 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 04:09:19 -!- celestic` [~user@c-67-173-0-175.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:16:54 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:18:48 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 04:22:37 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 04:22:55 -!- oconnore [~Eric@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:26:48 -!- frhodes [~frhodes@75-173-84-172.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:27:23 frhodes [~frhodes@75-173-84-172.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:27:58 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:29:41 clop [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has joined #lisp 04:34:44 -!- Deathaholic [~Mococa@187.58.11.167] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:36:52 -!- Hunden [~Hunden@e180103198.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:39:49 -!- nhonhonho [~nhonhonho@186.214.201.186] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 04:40:46 Hunden [~Hunden@e180105041.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 04:41:24 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:45:34 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:49:17 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.38.98.102] has joined #lisp 04:50:09 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:50:49 -!- nicdev [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: nicdev] 04:51:44 wislin [~user@118.122.165.4] has joined #lisp 04:52:08 Hi,everyone. 04:54:27 why the two results are not same? (find-symbol "IN-PACKAGE") -> IN-PACKAGE :INHERITED , but (find-symbol "in-package")->NIL NIL 04:55:21 What reason lead to that result? 04:56:04 do you see the difference between "in-package" and "IN-PACKAGE"? 04:56:21 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-dqokilclbarnwkzs] has joined #lisp 04:56:22 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-dqokilclbarnwkzs] has quit [Changing host] 04:56:22 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 04:58:02 good morning all 04:58:11 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.131.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:00:53 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-219-205.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:03:26 In pcl package chapter said, when the reader reads a name, it translates it to a symbol by converting any unescaped letters to uppercase. So I think the two expression shold be the same. what is wrong? 05:03:45 The string "in-package" isn't being passed through the reader like that. 05:05:37 Astrology [~chris@122.237.20.72] has joined #lisp 05:05:51 -!- Amyn [~abennama@cac94-2-87-91-21-215.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:07:28 -!- Astrology is now known as Evanescence 05:08:08 -!- Evanescence is now known as stardiviner 05:08:55 -!- stardiviner [~chris@122.237.20.72] has quit [Client Quit] 05:10:08 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 05:12:43 parabolize [~paraboliz@203.83.50.36] has joined #lisp 05:13:31 Astrology [~chris@122.237.20.72] has joined #lisp 05:16:07 -!- cheier is now known as cheier^ 05:16:08 -!- Astrology [~chris@122.237.20.72] has quit [Client Quit] 05:18:04 wislin: what Bike said is correct. What the reader does is more like (find-symbol (string-upcase "in-package")) (except that it's INTERN not FIND-SYMBOL) 05:19:18 thanks 05:19:34 your face is fat and ugly 05:19:43 oops this is was supposed to go in google chat 05:20:03 dhaivat: I'm sure it would be much more polite there. ;-) 05:20:37 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 05:20:44 hehe 05:23:20 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 05:23:52 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:30:05 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has joined #lisp 05:30:41 Astrology [~chris@122.237.20.72] has joined #lisp 05:31:47 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 05:34:43 haha 05:34:54 delayed response 05:36:00 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:36:31 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:39:03 realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:45:05 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-81-181.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:47:22 g'dag 05:47:29 erm. good day! :-) 05:53:48 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.38.98.102] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:54:17 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.38.98.102] has joined #lisp 05:54:35 -!- Astrology [~chris@122.237.20.72] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 05:58:58 -!- zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:00:24 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.119.222] has joined #lisp 06:06:43 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:06:53 bwright [~bwright@uberwolf.com] has joined #lisp 06:07:09 -!- bwright is now known as someperson 06:16:14 -!- someperson [~bwright@uberwolf.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:16:21 bwright [~bwright@uberwolf.com] has joined #lisp 06:17:51 ISF [~ivan@201.82.131.254] has joined #lisp 06:20:37 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] 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betta_y_omega [~betta_y_o@90.166.231.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:47:52 betta_y_omega [~betta_y_o@90.166.231.220] has joined #lisp 08:51:35 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-lhhnohpnfbxkfbdd] has joined #lisp 08:55:08 anyone knows a good hex editor comparable to WinHex? (but for linux) 08:55:21 p_l|backup: i guess that hexl-mode does not do? 08:55:30 hexl 08:55:41 or hexdump(1) 08:55:53 C-Keen: hexdump is an editor? 08:56:22 H4ns: for reading a multi-gigabyte partition? hardly 08:56:29 -!- npoektop [~npoektop@213.141.130.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:56:31 p_l|backup: that's what i thought :) 08:56:54 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.119.222] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:57:03 p_l|backup: back in the day, we used adb for that 08:57:05 unfortunately, debugfs.ntfs is still in too early stage to work right now :/ 08:57:12 biew (or beye as it's apparently called now days) works reasonably well - i don't know about it handling files that are larger than a few hundred megabytes though 08:57:39 p_l|backup: gdb may work fine is what i mean to say. 08:57:47 H4ns: well no, but nothing ed could fix :p (sorry for the noise) 08:57:52 -!- naeg [~naeg@46.75.231.30] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 09:00:16 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.119.159] has joined #lisp 09:01:38 hmmm, wikipedia page on those got better. Sorry for OT and thanks for suggestions anyway :) 09:02:18 mstevens [~mstevens@ceres.etla.org] has joined #lisp 09:02:18 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@ceres.etla.org] has quit [Changing host] 09:02:18 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 09:03:16 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:04:17 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 09:04:44 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.119.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:04:45 spradnyesh1 [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-wicaglxbbszainlw] has joined #lisp 09:05:25 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-lhhnohpnfbxkfbdd] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 09:11:31 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:18:37 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:19:34 xan_ [~xan@host86-189-2-100.range86-189.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:23:33 realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:25:03 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 09:25:20 pavelludiq [~pavelludi@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 09:34:12 algal [~anonymous@host-92-26-11-193.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 09:38:02 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:39:19 -!- Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:39:25 Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has joined #lisp 09:40:52 -!- mducharme [~nothing@S0106002401f31855.wp.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:42:34 topeak [~topeak@118.186.129.168] has joined #lisp 09:45:56 -!- markskil` [~user@host217-43-218-6.range217-43.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:46:43 markskil` [~user@host217-43-218-6.range217-43.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:48:33 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.14.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:51:32 -!- silenius [~silenius@pD4B9E81F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:51:57 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-105-233.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:52:25 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has joined #lisp 09:53:45 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.34.26.84] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:54:00 -!- topeak [~topeak@118.186.129.168] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:55:50 ehu [~ehuels@109.34.26.84] has joined #lisp 09:56:05 Joreji [~thomas@75-224.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:00:01 is there a FORMAT control code for taking a field's mincols size from the passed parameters, instead of from literal digits in the format control string? 10:02:17 ie, (format t size contents size contents) 10:02:52 you can use V instead of a literal number 10:03:01 ~VT, for example 10:04:25 cool, that works. 10:05:05 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 10:05:13 didn't see it at all in the clhs 10:05:31 and of course, now I see it there :-P 10:05:59 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-25-142.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:05:59 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-25-142.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 10:05:59 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:09:32 If I declaim a function to be inline; is that supposed to be of global impact, or only within the scope of that file? (I think it's global, but where does it say so? declaim doesn't state to be the compile+load-time equivalent of proclaim) 10:10:14 I think it might be more convention than spec 10:11:47 declaim says that the proclamations (however, that word doesn't refer to anywhere in the macro declaration, because that mentions declarations) remain in effect after compilation. 10:11:49 however, 10:12:01 -!- Joreji [~thomas@75-224.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:12:09 does that mean they become effective again when the fasl is being loaded? 10:12:32 hajovonta [nggrwf@usloft1077.serverloft.de] has joined #lisp 10:12:49 hello 10:13:52 Joreji [~thomas@64-098.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:13:55 hello hajovonta 10:16:05 ehu: 3.3 says that proclamations are "Global decarations" 10:16:12 declarations 10:16:47 Phoodus: thanks! that should do it. 10:17:17 as such, I should hope that includes post-fasl-load, but it might not say so outright 10:17:52 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.131.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:17:59 dacoda [~user@gate.cdc.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 10:22:15 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181056239.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:22:48 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181056239.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 10:24:28 lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 10:25:34 can someone explain me why it is not always a good idea to declare variable types to improve performance? 10:26:07 because you can change your mind later, and then you have more code to change 10:26:34 hajovonta: also, type declarations make your code harder to read 10:27:07 because not all performance improvements are relevant 10:27:40 hajovonta: because you may not know what you're doing 10:28:36 hajovonta: the compiler may really trust your declaration, and things like segmentation faults can start occuring e.g. if you use `nil' as a fixnum 10:28:54 (or with some other types) 10:29:01 i read it somewhere that there are situations where type declarations may make performance even worse 10:29:25 hajovonta: where? 10:29:36 i think in a post on stackoverflow 10:29:44 oudeis [~oudeis@109.67.211.114] has joined #lisp 10:31:20 -!- spradnyesh1 [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-wicaglxbbszainlw] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:31:55 spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has joined #lisp 10:32:04 hajovonta: iirc (please correct me) sbcl inserts `check-type' when setting values for variables with declared types under debugging conditions (see declaration `optimize') 10:32:30 yakov [~yakov@ip-83-149-3-73.nwgsm.ru] has joined #lisp 10:32:47 g'day 10:32:50 hajovonta: acl 8.2 does it too. i think both are configurable 10:33:12 -!- gko [~gko@111.81.128.255] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:33:43 but if you do have optimizations set, then adding declarations can make you code faster. Under SBCL, it gives you notes saying where it could make it faster if it was told more type data 10:33:50 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-134-226.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:33:53 ...your code faster.... 10:39:45 hm 10:39:57 thanks for the idea 10:40:08 i have clozure cl 1.7 now 10:40:22 http://www.sbcl.org/manual/index.html#Declarations-as-Assertions 10:40:26 http://www.franz.com/support/documentation/8.2/doc/variables/compiler/verify-type-declarations-switch.htm 10:40:38 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d010d62.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:40:44 oh ok :) 10:40:51 hi 10:41:08 thanks for the answers to all 10:41:17 :-) 10:44:49 DelPuerto [~youguy@200.89.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 10:46:18 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 10:47:05 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-168-151.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:49:31 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-umfvzujqtpbjvybe] has joined #lisp 10:50:18 Xach: herep 10:50:45 who was it who wanted to use ABCL as an SBCL buildhost? 10:50:58 we're a buildhost again (since several years) 10:53:50 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181056239.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:54:58 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 10:55:00 -!- DelPuerto [~youguy@200.89.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 10:55:16 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.255] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:59:57 -!- am0c [~am0c@222.235.49.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:00:16 -!- tsanhwa [~user@2001:da8:8001:240:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:08:40 drl [~lat@110.139.230.255] has joined #lisp 11:10:16 hi ehu 11:10:26 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-umfvzujqtpbjvybe] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:12:35 Xach: hi! were you the one who wanted ABCL to be an SBCL buildhost? 11:12:52 Xach: we have just returned to the state of "a working buildhost" 11:13:05 after 2 years of absence (at least) 11:13:26 I don't rightly know 11:13:32 I think that sounds pretty good though! 11:13:41 -!- xan_ [~xan@host86-189-2-100.range86-189.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:13:48 nefo [~nefo@61.184.205.202] has joined #lisp 11:13:49 -!- nefo [~nefo@61.184.205.202] has quit [Changing host] 11:13:49 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 11:14:14 yea. we're very happy with it :-) 11:14:26 kinda confirms we're on the right track. 11:15:09 hmm. maybe tcr was the one then. 11:15:17 haven't seen him for months 11:16:40 nicdev [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 11:16:52 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:19:00 Is there a sensible workaround to eval a form such as 11:19:02 (progn 11:19:02 (ql:quickload :cl-fad) 11:19:02 (pushnew (fad:directory-exists-p "/mypath/") 11:19:02 asdf:*central-registry*)) 11:19:03 ? 11:19:31 algal: you mean so that you can compile it? 11:19:45 The problem is that reader chokes on the (fad:...) form, since fad isn't loaded until after the (ql:quickload form is evaluated). (I think) 11:20:30 -!- Dodek [dodek@nolajf.pl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:20:31 algal: should not be an issue unless you want to compile the file. 11:20:34 H4ns: yes, or even just to eval it form slime 11:20:44 ah, not completely, you're right. 11:21:04 can you get away without the toplevel progn and cl:load the file instead? 11:21:05 I can't even eval it in the REPL 11:21:21 -!- otwieracz [~gonet9@v6.gen2.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:21:30 So I don't think it's a problem with compiling. 11:21:32 the progn is what makes it barf. 11:21:48 if you loose the progn and use cl:load to load the file, it'll work. 11:22:11 algal: what if it doesn't exist? 11:22:22 algal: why use cl-fad for that at all? are you using clisp? 11:22:41 otwieracz [~gonet9@v6.gen2.org] has joined #lisp 11:22:52 Xach: it is the reader that barfs because it tries to read the progn before it has loaded cl-fad. 11:22:57 taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has joined #lisp 11:23:14 Xach: you're right -- I haven't handled that case, so I suppose it's irrelevant. The larger context is I want to setup a conditional switch for easily switching between using my local development copy of cl-mediawiki and the QL version. 11:23:41 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d010d62.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:23:50 So the larger block is really: 11:23:58 (if use-local-cl-mediawiki 11:23:58 (progn 11:23:59 (ql:quickload :cl-fad) 11:23:59 (pushnew (fad:directory-exists-p "/Users/alexis/workspace/cl-mediawiki/") 11:23:59 asdf:*central-registry*) 11:24:00 (asdf:load-system :cl-mediawiki)) 11:24:00 (ql:quickload :cl-mediawiki)) 11:24:04 H4ns: I understand completely. I question the necessity of the construct. 11:24:17 algal: please use paste.lisp.org next time. 11:24:30 Xach: will do. 11:24:39 Xach: apologies 11:24:49 prxq [4d010d62@gateway/web/freenode/ip.77.1.13.98] has joined #lisp 11:25:15 algal: Also, quickload will work for local things too. 11:25:33 algal: You could ditch cl-fad and use (probe-file #p"/path/to/cl-mediawiki.asd") instead. 11:25:52 Dodek [dodek@nolajf.pl] has joined #lisp 11:26:17 As to the original problem, it's why you sometimes see stuff like (funcall (read-from-string "foo:bar") 42) in init files and the like. 11:26:19 Seems I can just ditch cl-fad wholesale since I'm not actually handling the error condition. I'm still interested in how to understand this problem in general, tho. 11:26:37 Or (funcall (find-symbol "BAR" :foo) 42) 11:26:38 Xach: yuck. 11:26:51 Yeah, not very pretty. 11:28:00 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-vdfllvumpxogdihf] has joined #lisp 11:28:23 well even a rose garden has its thorns. 11:28:37 I don't know clojure, but one of the things I remember from Rich Hickey's boston presentation a few years ago was something like "I figured out how not to have stuff like that" 11:30:20 ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has joined #lisp 11:30:30 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-vdfllvumpxogdihf] has left #lisp 11:31:01 -!- nicdev [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: nicdev] 11:33:37 Yeah, I know vaguely that it handles symbols and packages differently 11:35:01 Along with "It's a lisp-1 with CL-style macros and it doesn't have the problems you think it might" 11:35:58 Xach: he gave a good talk on Clojure for CL programmers. Maybe that's the boston meet you're referring to. 11:36:34 Xach: you said quickload will work for local things too. That means I can use quickload to load local variants of QL packages? 11:37:10 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.153.157] has joined #lisp 11:37:24 (Clojure for Lisp Programmers: http://blip.tv/clojure/clojure-for-lisp-programmers-part-1-1319721 ) 11:37:38 algal: Yes. as long as it's visible via asdf's registry, ql:quickload will find it in preference to the quicklisp version. 11:38:14 algal: I was at that meeting and sat in the front row. http://www.flickr.com/photos/xach/2900986065/ 11:38:54 oh, cool. 11:39:14 yeah, was quite a presentation. 11:39:33 xan_ [~xan@94.119.7.246] has joined #lisp 11:39:50 The guy's doing some impressive work. His presentations are always interesting. 11:41:36 nicdev [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 11:42:01 I'm curious, did it go over well with the local audience? There is no Q&A on the video. 11:43:17 algal: The local audience had some hard-core old-school Lispers who were prepared to grill and heckle at first. By the end of it (3 hours) they had given him multiple ovations. 11:43:34 wow 11:43:56 He clearly gave the impression that he wasn't the typical "I read a paper about Lisp so now I know everything about it and I'm making something better." 11:44:38 More like "I think CL is cool and Lisp is cool and I'm trying to take the best lessons from what exists and mix in some new stuff." 11:44:44 Xach: yeah, he definitely knows his stuff. 11:45:19 Of course, that was the first and last thing I ever really saw on the topic of Clojure, so I don't know how it's all played out on the language level. On the social level it seems really successful. 11:45:59 I'll be very interested to see how ClojureScript develops. 11:46:28 *Xach* gets back to hacking CL 11:49:10 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 11:51:32 the jvm is a huge transport for its popularity 11:51:51 acelent: there are pure CLs on the JVM too 11:51:59 i have a friend who tried it out just because of that (he works with java), and i believe that as him, many too 11:52:40 ehu: true, but is it so seamlessly integrated? is the syntax nice for java<->lisp? 11:52:43 ehu: out of curiosity, how does abcl compare time-wise building sbcl vs. sbcl building itself? 11:53:08 Favorably. 11:53:15 AFAIK, sbcl is the slowest at builting itself. 11:53:20 Xach: I'll ask easyE; he's the one having done the actual work. 11:53:45 acelent: I believe it's getting better. 11:53:51 acelent: at least in ABCL 11:53:58 abcl->abcl I mean. abcl->sbcl is probably slower than sbcl->sbcl of course. 11:54:13 acelent: but there's no reason why it could not be really nice. 11:54:19 -!- taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:54:37 pjb: yea. for some reason my machine does a real slow ABCL build; yet it takes only 5 minutes. 11:55:02 pjb: I'm not curious about abcl self-building, but more like "abcl is 10 times slower" or 5 or 3 or 100 11:55:05 ehu: yes, i know. please don't take it as criticism from me, this is my view on the rest of the world's view on lisp over jvm 11:55:30 I never tried to compile sbcl with abcl. 11:56:03 pjb: it used to be possible until - i think - 2 years ago. 11:56:07 ehu: i think abcl is really good effort 11:56:12 today we regained that possibility 11:56:23 capability 11:56:26 ehu: congrats! 11:57:08 prxq: thanks ! 11:57:18 :-) (easyE did the actual work, though) 11:58:40 acelent: and it's even getting better and better 11:59:08 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-188-176.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:00:26 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-154-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:02:14 -!- xan_ [~xan@94.119.7.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:02:53 E3D3 [~user@i213226.upc-i.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 12:04:06 -!- nicdev [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: nicdev] 12:04:46 any known issues building SBCL on Solaris? We seem to have hangs in our tests with ABCL (however, SBCL building itself hangs too) 12:05:05 ehu: Jim Wise is the guy who should know 12:05:40 ok. thanks. we'll contact him. 12:09:31 -!- Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:10:23 -!- EyesIsMine [~eyes@unaffiliated/eyesismine] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:10:25 Xach: abcl/sbcl building times, not really sure as they are both subjectively long. 12:10:37 so I haven't timed them. 12:11:01 Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:12:24 scottmaccal [~scottmacc@firewall.portland.lib.me.us] has joined #lisp 12:12:39 part of the build output is a time measurement 12:13:27 urandom__ [~user@p548A54D0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:13:40 Krystof: Yep. But the hardware is my late 2008 MacBook Pro which I'm using as a client for other things which need to be controlled for. 12:13:46 Krystof: it doesn't show the totals, though, does it? just the individual steps 12:14:33 xan_ [~xan@217.41.237.172] has joined #lisp 12:14:34 *easyE* Fires up a remote VirtualBox on some *real* iron to time the builds. 12:14:45 that's same vintage as my macbook -- approx. build times around 7 minutes, iirc 12:15:49 doesn't it say "build started: xxx build finished: yyy"? 12:16:21 oh, that. it does 12:16:39 nikodemus: If that's a typical sbcl->sbcl build, then abcl->sbcl is roughly five times slower. But I need to recheck things. 12:16:40 -!- algal [~anonymous@host-92-26-11-193.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: algal] 12:16:43 -!- |3b| [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:17:00 i pretty much always build with "time sh make.sh &> log" to get the non-wallclock times 12:17:02 |3b| [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:18:55 same here. 12:19:34 -!- ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:21:57 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:24:10 udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-rtbyuufghxhebrbl] has joined #lisp 12:24:30 EyesIsMine [~eyes@unaffiliated/eyesismine] has joined #lisp 12:24:48 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.255] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:30:44 -!- Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:30:46 Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:31:43 -!- E3D3 [~user@i213226.upc-i.chello.nl] has left #lisp 12:31:54 algal [~anonymous@host-92-26-11-193.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 12:32:50 -!- Elench is now known as JHVH 12:34:35 lakatos [~lakatos@83.166.210.157] has joined #lisp 12:35:17 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 12:35:42 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 12:35:49 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:37:06 -!- Joreji [~thomas@64-098.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:37:38 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-161-7.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:39:52 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:41:47 -!- lakatos [~lakatos@83.166.210.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:43:09 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:43:19 cyrillos_ [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has joined #lisp 12:43:27 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:44:27 -!- cyrillos_ [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has quit [Client Quit] 12:45:37 -!- prxq [4d010d62@gateway/web/freenode/ip.77.1.13.98] has left #lisp 12:46:06 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d010d62.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:54:42 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:55:12 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@109.67.211.114] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:56:14 Joreji [~thomas@93-146.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:59:57 antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-2925099682.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 13:03:29 -!- cheier^ [~amedueces@c-76-107-19-58.hsd1.ms.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:06:54 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 13:07:31 Eataix [~Eataix@CPE-121-223-176-127.lns1.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 13:11:31 -!- MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-097-129-008.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:14:51 -!- yates [~yates@nc-71-54-141-32.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.1] 13:19:36 random question: anyone have a clue why an executable generated by SBCL should run fine from the command line, from a shell script, from Python's subprocess.call, from R's pipe() command, but should fail and drop into the debugger when called from within Mathematica? 13:19:41 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 13:20:19 Obviously there's something mathematica-specific going on here, but I'm hard pressed to guess what since I've piped output from other command line executables into it before without ever seeing this.. 13:20:35 what error message does it give? 13:21:26 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:21:27 Well, Mathematica complains when the runtime spits out: "Welcome to LDB, a low-level debugger for the Lisp runtime environment" 13:21:44 because it's expecting the executable to output a csv. 13:21:49 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-qydgqbquarpudojf] has joined #lisp 13:22:15 does mathematica restrict memory of its sub-processes? 13:22:27 zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has joined #lisp 13:22:38 oh that's a good thought. If the mathematica has some ulimits set on it 13:22:41 silenius [~silenius@p4FFC9F24.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:22:41 -!- JHVH is now known as Elench 13:23:06 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.136.127] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:23:22 stassats: it might do. The mathematica documentation is pretty thin when it comes to the faults and weaknesses of the system... 13:23:47 Krystof: ulimits? Is that a limit on mathematica that its subprocesses would inherit? or something mathematica would impose on its subprocesses? 13:23:52 Now, if you ran maxima instead, you could run your lisp code without even forking a new process... 13:24:33 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 13:24:40 billstclair [~billstcla@p-69-195-55-65.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 13:24:49 pjb: I know it. Mainly producing this wrapper for a colleague. Mathematica is good for cetain kinds of graphing. 13:24:51 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@p-69-195-55-65.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:24:51 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 13:25:57 algal: I'm thinking more likely the first, but both are possible 13:26:22 is this a unix platform or Windows? 13:27:04 osx 13:28:04 -!- zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:28:07 could be a number of things 13:28:52 sounds like you're snagging something in your OSX environment though 13:29:14 something you didn't know you had maybe 13:29:19 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:29:32 SFAIK Mathematica is not lisp based. 13:30:11 um 13:30:16 neither are python or R 13:30:56 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:31:17 fwiw, I'm finding that Mathematica can successfully execute an SBCL executable that just does Hello world. 13:31:29 -!- lhnz [~lhnz@188-223-83-48.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:31:52 So the problem is in some way specific to the fact that the real utill actually does some computation, network access, prints more than a line. 13:31:59 if you could somehow provide the whole output when SBCL crashes into LDB 13:32:02 are you using Run, RunThrough, SystemOpen or what? 13:32:28 superflit_ [~superflit@71-208-214-203.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 13:32:31 Tried Run. Was getting nowhere. Have been using Import[!./path/excutable","text"] now because ultimately I'm going to want to import csv. 13:32:37 Also tried Run and OpenRead. 13:32:46 there you are 13:33:17 where? 13:33:19 lhnz [~lhnz@188-223-83-48.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:33:47 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-208-209-32.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:33:47 -!- superflit_ is now known as superflit 13:33:53 at the wrong API 13:34:18 algal: encoding issues? 13:34:31 RenJuan: but they've all failed -- so is there another API. 13:35:00 prxq: hmmmm..... hadn't thought about that. my util is output utf-8 unicode, I hope/believe. 13:35:10 should be one of the 1st 3 mentioned I would think 13:36:14 i can't imagine unicode issues or different APIs would land SBCL into the _low level_ debugger 13:36:19 zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has joined #lisp 13:37:16 stassats: fair enough 13:37:29 RenJuan: but tried them all, so unless I need to give them some kind of options... Hmm.. 13:37:42 there's a low level API for direct interfacing but you prolly don't want that. I only have the linux version. may be different. 13:37:44 I'm frightfully innocent of how encoding gets negotiated at pipe boundaries 13:38:13 Daev [~KAPITAL@nom27930d.nomadic.ncsu.edu] has joined #lisp 13:38:54 The SBCL executable dumps even when I'm using Mathematica to trigger a shell script which calls the executable and redirects all its output to a file. So I would think that excludes output encoding issues. 13:39:26 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.136.127] has joined #lisp 13:39:31 maybe something to do with the Mathematica runtime 13:39:52 encoding not at all negotiated at pipe boundaries. you have to ensure a specific encoding yourself 13:41:00 Yeah, Run["!/wrap.sh"] fails, when wrap.sh itself is just "./executable arg > output", where executable is the SBCL executable. 13:41:03 hi 13:41:05 algal: try running ulimit -a from a shell called from mathematica. Might provide some info. 13:41:09 pjb: we did the drone! 13:41:26 pjb: based on arducopter/pirates hardware platform 13:41:33 prxq: thanks for the suggestion. new to ulimit. will try it and try to learn smthing. 13:41:45 algal: and what's 'executable' like? 13:42:40 spacefrogg: 79MB SBCL executable. makes an http request with a 1sec pause between them, parses xml, does list processing, outputs as a csv table. 13:43:05 uses :cl-mediawiki and :csv-wrapper 13:43:09 algal: "ulimit -a" prints info on all limits that are in effect. Maybe you can paste it somewhere and we could take a look. 13:43:24 Krystof, meant that since Mathematica wasn't lisp based it was unlikely it had started a lisp debugger. 13:43:56 (intentionally) 13:44:14 gko [gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:06 is paste.lisp.org healthy? 13:46:36 algal: no idea. I'm using pastebin lately. 13:46:57 algal: it's working for me. 13:47:11 -!- Astrology [~chris@122.237.20.72] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 13:47:18 algal pasted http://paste.lisp.org/display/124252 "mma-to-lisp-prob" 54 seconds ago 13:47:19 *prxq* takes note to try paste.lisp.org again. 13:47:26 i'm your new lisppaste 13:48:04 algal: So sbcl is producing its output on it's own behalf as just takes 'magic numbers' from the mathematica process? 13:48:10 ah, thanks. I must have forgot to request a channel notification from the bot 13:48:11 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:48:31 spacefrogg: yeah. it just takes a text token as the first command line argument. 13:48:46 algal: the bot's not here 13:48:49 however, I've goten the same problem when I wrap the sbcl executable in a shell script, suggesting the problem is not due to argument-passing on the command line 13:49:03 algal: I do not see anything suspicious. 13:49:16 algal: can you provide the exact error message from sbcl? 13:49:33 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 13:49:43 Did you enclose your arguments in quotes? 13:49:46 mrSpec [~Spec@c-66-31-28-194.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:47 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@c-66-31-28-194.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:49:47 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 13:51:30 algal: Try to use 'iconv' to convert your text token into the correct encoding. 13:52:14 Where did these people come to suggest random stuff? 13:52:18 come from, rather? 13:52:31 spacefrogg: yeah, I've tried a few things to verify it's not an argument passing probem, At least, I think it's not. 13:53:20 stassats: So all MMA captures is just "Welcome to LDB, a low-level debugger for the Lisp runtime environment. 13:53:20 ldb> " 13:53:53 can you redirect the error output to a file or something? 13:54:11 -!- silenius [~silenius@p4FFC9F24.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:54:14 i hope it doesn't use termial-io for priniting errors in the LDB 13:54:27 Xach: a good question. Hopefully they will discover wisdom soon 13:54:42 Yuuhi [benni@p5483CC7F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:00:47 -!- xan_ [~xan@217.41.237.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:01:37 zelak_ [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has joined #lisp 14:01:52 alama [~jessealam@86.93.35.187] has joined #lisp 14:02:27 -!- yakov [~yakov@ip-83-149-3-73.nwgsm.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:02:36 -!- lhnz [~lhnz@188-223-83-48.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:02:36 -!- scottmaccal [~scottmacc@firewall.portland.lib.me.us] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:02:36 -!- Dodek [dodek@nolajf.pl] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:02:36 -!- daniel [~daniel@p508293E0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:02:36 -!- dhaivat [~Dhaivat_P@14.97.193.38] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:02:37 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:02:37 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:02:37 -!- rabite_ [~rabite@4chan.fm] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:02:37 -!- jiacobucci [~jiacobucc@gw-asdl.ae.gatech.edu] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:02:37 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-133-133.w90-26.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:02:37 -!- erg [~erg@li32-38.members.linode.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:02:37 -!- CallToPower [~CallToPow@s15229144.onlinehome-server.info] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:03:42 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:04:44 -!- zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:05:10 nhonhonho [~nhonhonho@186.214.201.186] has joined #lisp 14:06:23 Xach, the gods of free internet advice? 14:06:32 recoded the executable so it takes no input from stdin or the command line. still seeing the failure. so for some reason MMA just doesn't like directly or indirectly spawning non-trivial SBCL executable. 14:06:53 Going to try recoding the executable to write its output directly to the filesystem. that should exclude all issues having to do with piping. 14:07:01 lhnz [~lhnz@188-223-83-48.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:07:01 scottmaccal [~scottmacc@firewall.portland.lib.me.us] has joined #lisp 14:07:01 Dodek [dodek@nolajf.pl] has joined #lisp 14:07:01 dhaivat [~Dhaivat_P@14.97.193.38] has joined #lisp 14:07:01 daniel [~daniel@p508293E0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:01 loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 14:07:01 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:07:01 rabite_ [~rabite@4chan.fm] has joined #lisp 14:07:01 jiacobucci [~jiacobucc@gw-asdl.ae.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 14:07:01 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-133-133.w90-26.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:07:01 erg [~erg@li32-38.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 14:07:01 CallToPower [~CallToPow@s15229144.onlinehome-server.info] has joined #lisp 14:07:08 thank ye, gods of internet advice. ") 14:07:12 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.153.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:07:15 illogical if you get the problem without mma in the loop 14:07:39 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 14:07:48 -!- scottmaccal [~scottmacc@firewall.portland.lib.me.us] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:08:27 and a sbcl problem is on-topic here 14:09:16 mma interfacing less so 14:09:40 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 14:09:40 -!- Joreji [~thomas@93-146.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:10:00 RenJuan: i disagree. it it a real problem related to a lisp implementation, so there is no better place than #lisp to discuss. 14:10:59 -!- Bucciarati [~buccia@www.inscatolati.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:11:38 by the way, does the directory from which you start SBCL exist? 14:12:00 because sbcl lands into LDB when started from non-existent directory 14:12:31 -!- zelak_ [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:12:52 well, for those following along at home, I've now modified my SBCL executable so that it (1) takes no input from stdin or the command line, (2) offers no output to stdout, (3) just writes to a file. It still crashes when triggered by mathematica, dropping into the LDB debugger. But not when run from the shell, from Python, from R, from a bash script... 14:13:07 stassats: interesting.... 14:13:57 algal: is the sbcl process still there after it crashes? maybe use lsof to spot unusual things. 14:14:23 algal: Memory management issues? 14:14:37 i can't believe this still isn't fixed 14:14:53 -!- idea-squirrel [~aloah@dslb-188-101-135-056.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:15:57 -!- dacoda [~user@gate.cdc.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:16:39 algal: i had sbcl running somthing from mathematica a couple of months back. So at the very least I can say it can work. This was a colaboration with someone that uses mathematica (i don't) and I can't tell you any details. 14:16:58 algal: what platform are you on? 14:17:01 Bucciarati [~buccia@www.inscatolati.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:15 (i cam 14:17:27 (i can't tell details because I don't know them) 14:17:36 H4ns: seeing 2 old versions of the executable process. but they're not associated with the current mma sessions which I just restarted.) 14:17:44 prxq: osx 10.6.8. 14:18:09 algal: if they've crashed, maybe lsof reveals something interesting. also, running sbcl under ktrace might be helpful. 14:18:12 stassats: Do you mean the directory from which I ran the SBCL session used to save the executable image? or the directory in which the executable exists? 14:18:41 algal: if you have lsof, look for the cwd entry of the crashed sbcl process. that is the one that needs to exist. 14:19:29 H4ns: this sounds promising but to be honest i've never used lsof so this is getting out of my depth. let me have a look. 14:19:43 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:19:46 algal: lsof -p is all you need to know. 14:22:41 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.34.26.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:23:09 nikodemus: i'm having trouble building sbcl 1.0.51 on mac os x 10.7 -- care to take a look? http://paste.lisp.org/display/124255 14:23:21 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.154.166] has joined #lisp 14:23:41 so lsof -p give me a list of processes, where the NAME column looks like paths to relavant directories, output files, /dev devices, etc.. One entry is a path of the form /exeecutable, which would seem to suggest something is looking for the executable off of the filesystem root, which is wrong. But maybe I'm interpreting this output wrong. 14:23:44 alama: did you do ./clean.sh before building? 14:24:04 stassats: this is in a freshly unpacked tarball 14:24:09 what does clean.sh do? 14:24:26 algal: you could paste it to paste.lisp.org 14:24:27 cleaning 14:24:40 run clean.sh before make.sh? 14:24:51 no, you don't need to 14:24:55 alama: the list is not a list of processes, but a list of file descriptors that the process has open. 14:25:00 am0c [~am0c@121.161.203.65] has joined #lisp 14:26:25 stassats: i'm not sure what you're suggesting -- i'm building sbcl using a single command, make.sh, using a precompiled image; i'm not sure where clean.sh fits in 14:26:26 H4ns: pasted 14:26:33 algal: url? 14:26:43 alama: i'm not suggesting anything 14:26:49 ah, ok 14:26:52 http://paste.lisp.org/display/124256 the problematic executable is "wiki-revisions" 14:27:11 -!- Daev [~KAPITAL@nom27930d.nomadic.ncsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:27:20 algal: is that really living in /? 14:27:37 No. that's what looked most suspicious. is NAME really supposed to be showing absolute filesystem paths? 14:27:48 if so, then that could be the problem. 14:27:49 alama: just give up on Fink, Homebrew is where it's at. :P 14:27:50 alama: and yes, you don't need ./clean.sh when building from a tarball, that's why i stopped suggesting it 14:27:51 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 14:28:04 felideon: i am also experimenting with homebrew 14:28:15 i'm disappointed at its package management features 14:28:17 algal: erm. well. i'd expect it to show absolute paths, but it could be that on osx lsof can't do it. 14:28:26 and it seems pretty underdeveloped so far 14:28:32 But not sure how MMA could have invoked the executable in such a way to as to get it to expect that 14:28:35 Daev [~KAPITAL@nom27930d.nomadic.ncsu.edu] has joined #lisp 14:28:37 felideon: for example, i just did "brew update sbcl" 14:28:52 -!- Daev is now known as MeanWeen 14:28:53 yeah i dont think .51 is on there yet. 14:28:53 that broke my homebrew 14:29:21 stassats: k 14:29:21 oh, i just do brew update && brew upgrade. 14:29:26 right 14:29:36 my point is: "brew update sbcl" will kill your homebrew 14:29:43 seems like a very simple programming oversight 14:30:05 it's supposed to "brew upgrade sbcl" 14:30:12 not "brew update sbcl" 14:30:22 algal: at least on my mac, the paths of executables are correctly displayed by lsof. something is suspicious. but i don't really know what. 14:30:37 alama: ah gotcha 14:31:15 H4ns: interesting. Okay. So maybe MMA is doing something perverse in the way it spawns the process, and that's what's confusing the sbcl. hmm. 14:31:17 -!- aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 14:31:34 algal: i'd try ktrace next. 14:33:39 algal: try ./executable arg > output 2>&1 14:34:08 -!- gko [gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [] 14:34:31 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-127.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:34:37 alama: try adding "find_page_index" to the list in tools-for-build/ldso-subs.lisp and rebuilding 14:34:41 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-127.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:35:37 (i'm assuming this is a Lion -induced breakage) 14:36:30 -!- Eataix [~Eataix@CPE-121-223-176-127.lns1.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [] 14:36:44 nikodemus: yeah 14:37:06 i'm probably updating to lion early next week myself 14:37:09 -!- hajovonta [nggrwf@usloft1077.serverloft.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:37:51 it's pretty nice 14:38:15 tsuru [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:38:51 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has joined #lisp 14:38:52 add "find_page_index" to *stubs* in tools-for-build/ldso-stubs.lisp? 14:40:41 blandest [~blandest@85.204.33.242] has joined #lisp 14:41:00 -!- udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-rtbyuufghxhebrbl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:41:04 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-qydgqbquarpudojf] has left #lisp 14:42:10 paul0 [~paul0@189.101.242.184] has joined #lisp 14:43:46 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 14:44:12 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-161-7.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:44:40 -!- alanpearce [~alan@home.alanpearce.co.uk] has quit [Quit: alanpearce] 14:45:12 it builds on lion here fine 14:46:16 some of lion's new ui features are a bit dubious, but it mostly works 14:46:24 xan_ [~xan@94.119.4.118] has joined #lisp 14:46:31 and morning folks 14:46:41 alama: yes 14:47:01 slyrus: hi 14:47:13 can you try building the latest tarball? 14:47:43 sure 14:47:58 does it matter with what host? 14:48:00 nikodemus: http://paste.lisp.org/display/124255#1 14:48:32 oh feh. i should have expected that. 14:48:42 slyrus: i don't think so 14:49:30 Vivitron [~user@pool-71-174-61-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:49:55 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:50:09 is the tarball likely to be different from the current HEAD? 14:51:06 nikodemus: congrats on nearing the overall goal! I still owe you an email... 14:51:42 alama is having the build fail with find_page_index not being found for static linkage by nm 14:52:05 alama: what's your default CC? 14:52:16 don't we explicitly use gcc? 14:52:34 doesn't seem so. "cc -g " and the error is clang. 14:52:38 alama: what version of xcode are you using? 14:52:50 that's it then 14:52:52 pkhuong: gcc --version ==> i686-apple-darwin11-llvm-gcc-4.2 (GCC) 4.2.1 (Based on Apple Inc. build 5658) (LLVM build 2335.15.00) 14:52:59 I think we're abusing a gcc-ism with that inline declaration. 14:53:21 ok, thanks alama 14:53:34 heh. I read that as what's your default gc too :) 14:53:43 heh 14:55:18 slyrus: xcode 4.1 14:56:32 nikodemus: x86-darwin sets CC, but not x86-64. 14:57:36 alanpearce [~alan@home.alanpearce.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:59:41 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-sunutjbvpabdbngw] has joined #lisp 14:59:47 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-sunutjbvpabdbngw] has left #lisp 15:03:44 Daev [~KAPITAL@nom27930d.nomadic.ncsu.edu] has joined #lisp 15:03:51 arauko [~araujo@190.73.44.29] has joined #lisp 15:03:58 -!- arauko [~araujo@190.73.44.29] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:04:45 How would you implement this; Given a list of numbers, say (1 2 10 1) I want to generate a new list where each number being the sum of all the previous numbers. I came up with the following, but I feel that I'm abusing REDUCE a bit. Is there a more readable solution? (nreverse (reduce #'(lambda (x y) (cons (+ (car x) y) x))) (cons '(0) THE-SEQUENCE)) 15:05:04 -!- MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@nom27930d.nomadic.ncsu.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:06:41 (let ((sum 0)) (mapcar (lambda (x) (incf sum x)) the-sequence)) 15:06:46 or did i get you wrong? 15:06:52 -!- Amyn [~abennama@64.208.49.45] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:07:08 (i could not read the code, that is :) ) 15:07:35 H4ns: Yeah, yours is more readbale. 15:07:37 readable. 15:08:47 scottmaccal [~scottmacc@firewall.portland.lib.me.us] has joined #lisp 15:10:13 (reduce #'+ 'THE-SEQUENCE) ?! 15:10:32 spacefrogg: run it. 15:10:48 loke: that's called a scan or partial-sum operator. 15:10:55 * prefix-sum 15:10:57 (loop for x in '(1 2 10 1) collect s sum x into s) 15:11:12 zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has joined #lisp 15:11:37 H4ns: works for me. did I get something wrong? 15:11:49 hm sure. partial sums 15:11:52 spacefrogg: reading comprehension. 15:12:13 spacefrogg: reduce works on sequences, not symbols. 15:12:41 -!- zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:12:48 pkhuong: woah 15:14:00 what is purpose of "the" operator? 15:14:27 A type assertion upon a value. 15:14:31 i've read hyperspec and it seems that it only invokes undefined behavior if the values are not of the declared type 15:14:49 clhs the 15:14:49 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_the.htm 15:14:52 Just like the rest of the type assertions. 15:14:58 zvrba: it's a hint to the compiler 15:14:59 They're promises to the compiler. 15:15:10 If you break them, you get UB. 15:15:20 (loop for x in '(1 2 10 1) sum x into sums collect sums) ; late for party 15:15:24 ok 15:15:28 But the compiler assumes that you don't, and that can allow it to optimize some things. 15:15:32 pkhuong: The actual thing I needed to do was actually generating pairs of numbers, each pair being the start and end offsets into a string (with one extra space between each field), the numbers are the field widths. I.e. (4 2 3) means the following "AAAA BB CCC". So I needed to transform (4 2 3) into ((0 4) (5 7) (8 11)). 15:15:36 zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has joined #lisp 15:15:52 Do you have a good solution for that? My solution was a terrribly ugly loop with SETQ's and stuff 15:16:37 -!- scottmaccal [~scottmacc@firewall.portland.lib.me.us] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 3.6.20/20110805211839]] 15:17:27 shaq [~shaq@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 15:17:36 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d010d62.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:18:22 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-116.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:18:59 hi. is the purpose of #+ the same as C's #ifdef conditional? 15:19:02 loke: if work with half-open intervals (like the beautifully designed STL), a prefix sum is enough. 15:19:25 shaq: very approximately. 15:19:39 shaq: and they work at the form level instead of lines, so it's slightly harder to #+ yourself into meaningless gibberish. 15:20:04 thanks. and how would I apply #+ to more than one expression? 15:20:17 shaq: you can use PROGN 15:20:23 pkhuong: Hmm... STL beautifully designed? 15:20:58 #+sbcl (progn (defun function () ... )) like that? (don't have lisp on laptop to check) 15:21:06 yes 15:22:11 if it's just a single defun #+sbcl (defun ..) works too obviously 15:22:22 shaq: why don't you have a lisp on the laptop? 15:24:26 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gw.maxisat.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:25:26 it's not my laptop. one more question, what exactly is #+ ? a preprocessor directive? what's the proper lisp terminology 15:25:49 shaq: Reader macro 15:25:57 (right?) 15:26:38 shaq, loke: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/01_ebaa.htm 15:26:43 centipedefarmer [~centipede@71-214-226-59.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:50 read-time conditionals i guess? 15:27:25 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-efrcaimmmqoinljm] has joined #lisp 15:27:28 (print #+sbcl "SBCL" #+ccl "Clozure") <- how to print "uknown" if it's neither? 15:27:47 #-(or sbcl ccl) "unknown" 15:27:47 #-(sbcl ccl) "uknown" 15:27:47 shaq: #-(or sbcl ccl) "unknown" 15:27:48 shaq: #-(or sbcl ccl) 15:27:53 err, yes. 15:28:14 That's a rather annoying wart, IMO. :( 15:28:15 nikodemus wins 15:28:17 #+(and (not ccl) (not sbcl)) "unknown" 15:28:36 Odin-: what is a wart? 15:28:43 So, abcl->sbcl is about six times slower than sbcl->sbcl. 15:28:45 Odin-: to fix it, all you need is a macro which returns its first argument 15:29:00 in fact, I think I wrote one just for that, lemme see 15:29:09 jdz: The "have to list everything supported in the default case" thingy. 15:29:25 (defmacro conditionalize (sbcl-form ccl-form default-form) ...) 15:29:58 -!- e-user [~e-user@nat/nokia/x-ufqopvopuvwcqnpa] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:30:08 -!- TeMPO[RAL] [~user@jiscser4.esc.rl.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: cya ;)] 15:30:42 H4ns, no you agreed, i.e. with sbcl part being on topic. Eguivocation on "it". 15:31:02 yeah, I did. (defmacro form-or (&rest forms) (first forms)) ; (duh) then you use it as (form-or #+sbcl "sbcl" #+ccl "ccl" "unknown") 15:31:05 (in addition to typo) 15:31:14 other than having to have the thing, I think it's a pretty clean solution 15:31:21 -!- bwright [~bwright@uberwolf.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:31:22 *equivocation 15:31:37 ladyg [~ladyg@212-198-248-35.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 15:31:42 (of course, you could also write a macro, or read macro, which itself checks *features*) 15:31:44 macros aren't always applicable, but it's mostly good enough. 15:32:01 heh, the code I have this in hasn't been touched in long enough that it says #+openmcl, not #+ccl 15:32:24 -!- ladyg [~ladyg@212-198-248-35.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 15:32:25 sharp plus or minus: like cond, but for reader conditionals ;) 15:34:58 dardoria [~boiantz@92-247-214-154.spectrumnet.bg] has joined #lisp 15:35:06 -!- misoczki [~misoczki@2001:660:3013:3:222:19ff:fe24:d155] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:46:49 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.154.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:47:14 -!- blandest [~blandest@85.204.33.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:50:05 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:52:26 -!- algal [~anonymous@host-92-26-11-193.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: algal] 15:53:30 scottmaccal [~scottmacc@firewall.portland.lib.me.us] has joined #lisp 15:54:58 dlowe [~dlowe@nat/google/x-lpddqrytfcvvmzqz] has joined #lisp 15:56:37 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 16:01:31 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.238] has joined #lisp 16:03:46 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-efrcaimmmqoinljm] has left #lisp 16:04:29 pjb: hi 16:04:58 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.34] has joined #lisp 16:10:06 -!- dardoria [~boiantz@92-247-214-154.spectrumnet.bg] has left #lisp 16:11:06 realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:11:35 dardoria [~boiantz@92-247-214-154.spectrumnet.bg] has joined #lisp 16:11:35 -!- dardoria [~boiantz@92-247-214-154.spectrumnet.bg] has left #lisp 16:12:20 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-154-93.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 16:16:33 peterhil` [~peterhil@gw.maxisat.fi] has joined #lisp 16:20:05 Joreji [~thomas@93-146.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:21:33 -!- ngz [~user@161.227.69.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:21:35 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gw.maxisat.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:22:52 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 16:23:03 -!- spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [Quit: spacefrogg] 16:24:20 pearle [~pearle@142.162.153.224] has joined #lisp 16:25:07 peterhil` [~peterhil@gw.maxisat.fi] has joined #lisp 16:26:47 SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@VEROXITY.ipcolo1.SanFrancisco1.Level3.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:09 -!- tfb [~tfb@80.238.0.145] has quit [Quit: sleeping] 16:31:53 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:33:10 -!- Joreji [~thomas@93-146.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:35:18 I have a lot of (iterate:iter (iterate:for ..)) in my code. I put a (in-package iterate) as the first form in the function. 16:35:23 Is this the right way? 16:35:26 samebchase: nope. 16:35:49 use ITERATE from your project's package. 16:36:02 there is only 1 "in-package" active at a time 16:36:08 if you're using allegro cl, you can do iter:( ! :D 16:36:17 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:36:20 Or possibly (:import-from ...) the specific symbols you need into your package. 16:36:29 pkhuong: that makes sense 16:36:32 doesn't iterate have :iter as a nickname? 16:36:36 *Xach* is in the habit of always using :shadowing-import-from 16:36:54 *Phoodus* is in the habit of not use-package'ing, and just using short aliases 16:37:30 Xach: which should only matter if you :use some other packages, right? 16:37:45 *gigamonkey* could be confused; still getting caffinated. 16:38:07 I.e. if you only ever :import-from and never :use then :shadowing-import-from would be silly. 16:38:20 maybe PCL has the answer. 16:38:26 ;D 16:38:32 reading... 16:39:04 jdz [~jdz@host35-70-dynamic.54-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:39:35 -!- pearle [~pearle@142.162.153.224] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:39:38 gigamonkey: i'll explain in a bit! 16:39:50 samebchase: the reason you don't want in-package flippantly is that affects the reader, so (in-package some-tool) (defun my-fun () ....) puts my-fun into some-tool as well, as opposed to in your own package 16:40:51 samebchase: one good rule of thumb is that every .lisp file should start with an IN-PACKAGE form and that's the only place you should use it. 16:41:32 the only time I've changed the current package is when I'm reading from a string 16:41:53 Phoodus: but you probably just bind *package*; you don't use IN-PACKAGE 16:41:57 right 16:41:57 I'm doing the defpackage thing now... 16:42:46 samebchase: so to expand on my rule of thumb a bit, create a file called packages.lisp which stilt with (in-package :cl-user) and then contains your DEFPACKAGE forms. 16:43:00 Then the rest of your .lisp files start with (in-package :your-package-name) 16:43:14 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 16:43:57 gigamonkey: So, defpackage stuff should be in a separate file... 16:44:11 samebchase: that's one good way to keep things tidy. 16:44:55 Helps to accentuate what should perhaps be obvious, that you define packages before they exist. 16:46:26 even though defpackage does have compile-time effect (ie, you can use (in-package) right after it), when dealing with multi-file projects it's nice to have it separate & in front when you're rearranging your project 16:47:31 gigamonkey: So if I'm using iterate I put the the (ql:quickload 'iterate) at the top of packages.lisp and then (:use iterate)? 16:47:49 gigamonkey: after defpackage 16:48:18 samebchase: the ql:quickload probabyl shouldn't be in any file. 16:48:58 You'll probabyl want to define an .asd file to load your system; quicklisp hooks into ASDF so things will Just Work when you use ASDF to load your system. 16:49:01 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-161-7.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:08 I've been enjoying the structure that Xach's quickproject gives for my small projects. http://xach.livejournal.com/278047.html?thread=674335 16:49:18 But for now you can just do the (ql:quickload :iterate) wherever. 16:49:35 I've started using quickproject and enjoying it recently as well. 16:49:46 Then you can DEFPACKAGE your own packaage and either (:use :iterate) or (:import-from :iterate ) 16:50:10 Or, if you're Xach, (:shadowing-import-from :iterate ) 16:51:50 gigamonkey: so if I have a packages.lisp and my-project.lisp 16:52:16 gigamonkey: should I load packages.lisp first and then 16:52:24 my-project? 16:52:58 aliaosha [~user@123.9.198.101] has joined #lisp 16:52:59 Yes. And normally you'd use an .asd file to express that by having my-project.lisp depend on packages.lisp. 16:53:23 -!- Daev is now known as MeanWeen 16:53:27 gigamonkey: .asd hmm... 16:53:44 hi,why some common lisp compiler was no complete written in common lisp?why need C in the source? 16:53:45 Joreji [~thomas@65-143.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:54:00 cfy: tons of compilers are written in CL. 16:54:31 spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has joined #lisp 16:54:40 samebchase: you don't necessarily have to deal with that now. 16:54:42 Some runtimes are written in a mix of C and assembly because C is the lingua franca of POSIX, and sometimes you really need assembly (just like libm and libc). 16:54:50 cfy: Sometimes it's easier to bootstrap something with a C-compiler. And there a lot of design decisions, too. 16:55:03 pkhuong: but the fpc seems does not need C 16:55:12 gigamonkey: so for the time being I just load packages.lisp and the my-project.lisp 16:55:25 gigamonkey: and read up on asdf later? 16:55:59 cfy: that's a design decision. I prefer to be pragmatic and focus on other things than generating syscalls directly. 16:56:20 samebchase: yup. 16:56:26 pkhuong: antoszka: oh,thanks 16:56:53 gigamonkey: nested loops were driving me crazy until I started using iterate. 16:57:20 gigamonkey: my sudoku solver still can't solve sudokus :( 16:57:47 -!- lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:57:53 gigamonkey: made a little progress though. 16:59:10 lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:30 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 17:07:24 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:08:47 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.238] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:10:14 edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-109-192-059-240.hsi6.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 17:10:19 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.238] has joined #lisp 17:13:47 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:13:54 -!- aliaosha [~user@123.9.198.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:14:23 -!- edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-109-192-059-240.hsi6.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has left #lisp 17:18:12 Bike1 [~Glossina@69.166.35.238] has joined #lisp 17:18:19 -!- Bike1 [~Glossina@69.166.35.238] has quit [Client Quit] 17:18:54 finnrobi [~robb@xvm-20-190.ghst.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:13 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.238] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:20:13 samebchase: as long as you're having fun. ;-0 17:22:07 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:24:19 gigamonkey: yeah! 17:29:17 -!- sacho [~sacho@46.10.17.252] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:30:54 -!- am0c [~am0c@121.161.203.65] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:30:56 Good night everyone! 17:32:51 am0c [~am0c@121.161.203.65] has joined #lisp 17:36:20 SegFault1X [~mkbernard@VEROXITY.ipcolo1.SanFrancisco1.Level3.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:11 SegFault2X [~mkbernard@VEROXITY.ipcolo1.SanFrancisco1.Level3.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:21 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:40:59 -!- jweiss [~user@nat/redhat/x-fzvowpudfqavsshm] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:41:12 jweiss [~user@nat/redhat/x-rvimevtwkyiyshmo] has joined #lisp 17:41:24 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-116.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:41:52 dardoria [~boiantz@92-247-214-154.spectrumnet.bg] has joined #lisp 17:41:59 -!- zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:44:37 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.38.98.102] has joined #lisp 17:46:00 -!- spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:46:29 zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has joined #lisp 17:47:15 gigamonkey: Here's why I habitually use :shadowing-import-from. 17:47:30 cybergggirl [~cybergggi@212-198-248-35.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 17:48:08 gigamonkey: When I'm hacking on something from scratch, I rarely know in advance what symbols from what supporting packages I might use. So I'll just hack away and use package prefixes a bit. Then if I find I'm using a symbol a lot with its prefix, I might want to swtich to importing it instead. 17:48:31 -!- cybergggirl [~cybergggi@212-198-248-35.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 17:48:47 gigamonkey: But if it's generic (like SCAN or X or SIZE or something) there's a chance that I've used that symbol for something else, so when I use :import-from, I get a symbol clash. 17:48:57 HG` [~HG@p579F7107.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:08 :shadowing-import-from avoids that, and I don't have to plan in advance. 17:51:35 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.237] has joined #lisp 17:51:59 dmiles [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-82-058.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 17:53:24 -!- shaq [~shaq@76.73.16.26] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)] 17:53:58 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-82-058.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:54:06 -!- dhaivat [~Dhaivat_P@14.97.193.38] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:55:03 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 17:55:04 yup basically in your defpackage, (:shadow SCAN) means use your scan, (:shadowing-import-from :ppcre :scan) means use PPCRE:SCAN.. The 1st thing you use hwen you want to use generic word from CL package or such as your own function (for example (defun time ())... The 2nd one you use when there is a conflict between two packages that you both (:use) and you want to prefer one over the other 17:57:07 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:57:07 *maxm* ended up with a pretty stable core of packages that I always use, so I kind have a template defpackage that I copy from project to project.. (the packages are demacs, alexandria, iterate, my logging lib, anaphora, closer-mop, arnesi (for code walker)) 17:57:43 doh an ppcre of course 18:03:12 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 18:07:40 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-cwrktippgkorhdim] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:10:43 Xach: there's also the chance you end up refering to some not yet imported symbols 18:10:45 Xach: you might also have actually two definitions with the same name, and by shadowing-importing you'll never be able to refer to your former one 18:10:55 Xach: all this with no warnings 18:11:45 in the first situation, if it's with functions, the compiler might warn 18:12:56 Not a situation I've ever encountered in practice. 18:12:56 in the second situation, your definitions are simply uninterned into oblivion (last two words added for special effects) 18:13:04 -!- MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@nom27930d.nomadic.ncsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:13:26 But I've had many symbol clashes with things I've used to name local variables. 18:14:17 Xach: that's really boring 18:14:28 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.87.53] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:14:40 You are entitled to a full refund. 18:15:04 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.87.53] has joined #lisp 18:15:09 Xach: however, when you have a system that is updated with patches (corrections, etc.), not having shadow-import'd symbols helps a lot to trace some stupid errors 18:15:09 nikodemus: looks like you just made your goal! http://www.indiegogo.com/SBCL-Threading-Improvements-1 18:15:40 whoa! 18:15:43 huzzah 18:15:51 thank you, all 18:15:51 heh 18:16:01 Daev [~KAPITAL@nom27930d.nomadic.ncsu.edu] has joined #lisp 18:16:01 gg antifuchs 18:16:02 i blame antifuchs! 18:16:45 now, set a new goal "15,000$: beer and snacks" 18:16:50 ^ 18:17:21 haha 18:17:23 awesome (: 18:17:30 I hadn't expected that (: 18:17:52 what about "$15000: hacking from a tropical island"? 18:18:05 tax free 18:18:14 perk: one personalised photo of nikodemus with a laptop to preserve his modesty 18:18:58 Look, hands-free mousing! 18:19:44 I think a personalised photo of Nikodemus dressed as Vladimir Lenin would bump the indiegogo acct to 15 grand. :) 18:20:33 ahahaha 18:20:49 does he look suitably like lenin? 18:20:50 lenin on a tropical island? 18:20:59 rsynnott: have you seen the indiegogo page? (: 18:21:16 $12,000! YESSS 18:21:22 How do you dress like Lenin, anyway? IIRC, he mostly just wore a slightly old-fashioned suit 18:21:23 7 days left. 18:21:52 rsynnott: it's all in the beard. 18:21:55 the suit, glasses, etc. 18:22:26 antifuchs: ah, just looked in a be-Flashed browser. Yep, I can sort of see it 18:22:36 *sykopomp* wonders how much funding it would take to add a LW-style deployment/treeshaking system to SBCL. 18:22:49 (-: 18:23:06 <_3b> sykopomp: probably depends on whether you want it to actually reduce the core size much or not :p 18:23:15 sykopomp: that'd be pretty sweet. 18:23:22 the point would be to murder the core size. 18:23:24 didn't someone have a working demo of that, years back? 18:23:24 *Xach* imagines Andrew Shalit watching the SBCL fuss and muttering "amateurs!": http://www.clozure.com/pipermail/openmcl-devel/2008-December/008777.html 18:23:25 I think nikodemus has his hands full for awhile, though. 18:23:32 any suggestions for next goal? 18:23:40 (they got rather a nice ratio) 18:23:56 -!- lanthan__ [~ze@p54B7DD4F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:24:01 I'd second any feature that made executable delivery more streamlined. 18:24:17 lanthan [~ze@p54B7C2B5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:24 and lightweight. 18:24:25 <_3b> nikodemus: one idea that came up recently is improving debugger tools (and related things), specifically someone wanted better single stepping 18:24:34 that sounds more like an idea for the next campaign 18:24:39 yeah 18:24:50 indeed 18:24:52 those both go a bit far afield from where i'm now 18:25:02 perhaps improving stability on Windows, in general? 18:25:16 arm 18:25:28 anton, dmitry and david are handling windows much better than i could 18:26:33 <_3b> medeira includes stuff from sb-concurrency? 18:26:39 is making STM hard? 18:26:40 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.38.98.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:27:25 I've been wondering for awhile what state cl-stm was in. 18:27:33 just no time to actually dig in and find out. 18:28:04 oh, STM would be very nice 18:28:11 one of clojure's nicest features 18:28:13 incf stm 18:29:18 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-105-233.wbs.co.za] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:30:31 *Odin-* wishes he had money to contribute. :( 18:30:58 http://abcl-dev.blogspot.com/2011/08/building-sbcl-with-abcl.html <-- I wish it only took 16m to build SBCL here :( 18:31:26 nikodemus: cool goatee you have 18:31:34 -!- zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:31:43 van dyke :) *nitpick* 18:31:45 nikodemus: also, I very much support single stepping, and restartable frames! 18:31:51 16 minutes? do you build it on an abacus? 18:31:52 we've been pondering putting some company money towards threaded GC; is that related at all to the madiera changes? 18:31:57 mathrick: we already have restartable frames 18:32:03 nikodemus: hmm, since when? 18:32:23 2-4 years 18:32:31 since you rebuild your code with debug 2 18:32:33 you need debug 2 18:32:45 hmm 18:33:07 that could be it, but any way to have it on debug 1 as well? 18:33:25 mathrick: there's a performance cost associated with them 18:33:34 therefore debug 2 18:33:38 most of the time I want to restart code I *haven't* built with debug 2 previously 18:33:53 build it with debug 2 always 18:34:18 i just have sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy to debug 2 18:34:25 what's the best way to have it set project-wide? 18:34:30 that said, it might be worth rebalancing the policies to make "all at 1" nicer 18:34:34 there's no reason not to when doing development 18:34:42 well, yeah 18:34:48 it's just not at all obvious 18:35:03 much like perl's use strict; or C++'s "don't use C++" 18:36:11 -!- lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:36:21 Tweet about it so the world finds out 18:36:38 I don't tweet 18:37:56 lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:56 The poor world :( 18:38:34 yes, the conscience barely lets me sleep at night 18:38:54 is debug 2 not the default? 18:39:00 i've never set it and I can restart from frames 18:39:13 felideon: in SBCL? 18:39:19 good point! 18:39:24 i dunno if I've tried. 18:39:32 uhh? 18:39:38 mathrick: disregard 18:40:30 oconnore [~Eric@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:36 hm, how about kissing the big compiler lock goodbye? 18:40:54 is it not much work? 18:40:57 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-116.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:41:05 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 18:41:11 -!- lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:41:14 -!- nicdev_ [~user@static-72-74-85-37.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:41:24 nicdev_ [~user@static-72-74-85-37.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:41 wouldn't making CLOS not depending on the compiler be a better target? 18:41:49 -!- nicdev_ [~user@static-72-74-85-37.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 18:42:06 -!- Joreji [~thomas@65-143.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:42:15 incf stm, killing compiler locks and Phoodus' company paying pkhuong to make the GC concurrent/multi-threaded :) 18:42:31 stassats: so that compiler itself can use CLOS and thus it can be brought in a much earlier build phase? 18:42:55 stassats: Didn't red daly start on cold-CLOS? Did he get anywhere with it? 18:43:01 Joreji [~thomas@83-060.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:43:06 I don't think that it's the BCL that makes clos-in-compiler hard 18:43:07 *redline6561* googles 18:43:18 mathrick: no, so that you wouldn't pay the price of compiling when doing fancy clos-stuff 18:43:19 it's making clos cold-buildable. And that's not really really really hard 18:43:27 stassats: oh 18:43:32 just hard and tedious for not much reward 18:43:45 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-82-058.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 18:44:07 hmm. no commits since february. https://github.com/gonzojive/sbcl 18:45:00 clos not depending on the compiler would reduce the effect of the big compiler lock, which is i believe what stassats is after 18:45:03 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-82-058.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:46:13 nikodemus: how much work / interest for you would it be to make SBCL slimmer, including treeshaking perhaps, and/or making it able to mmap() parts of the image directly from disk? As it is now, empty SBCL doing nothing takes ~40MB RAM just to launch, which is pretty excessive 18:46:29 i'm just thinking how the BCL affects the user 18:46:51 it really makes it hard to use SBCL for end-user delivery 18:47:03 other than clos, compiling at run-time from multiple threads, but i wouldn't call that a good idea 18:47:06 gzexe? 18:47:14 nikodemus: breaks SBCL spectacularly 18:47:21 making the compiler a shared library would be more useful 18:47:27 really? i've used it without problems 18:47:34 because of all the address space muckery 18:47:43 even if you have tree shaking, spawning 10 sbcl's is expensive 18:47:44 mathrick: we've got a simple startup script that's delivered as an executable lisp image. Yay nearly double the deliverable size :-P 18:47:54 nikodemus: I used upx and gzexe I believe, and it didn't end up well 18:48:00 oconnore: aren't memory mappings shared? 18:48:13 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:48:17 they are 18:48:17 never tried upx, but gzexe has worked for me 18:48:19 or COW 18:48:26 right 18:48:27 ok 18:48:30 well that would be nice 18:49:06 anyways, treeshaking isn't an impossibility, but not in scope for this round 18:49:09 gzexe works fine for me too. 18:49:19 it'd be extra super great if you could have partial images, so that a single image could be made for all the base stuff, and then only the extra stuff on top would be written on top 18:49:36 mathrick: that already exists. see sb-heapdump 18:49:42 nikodemus: well of course not, but you were asking for the next one 18:49:47 nikodemus: ah, I need to take a look then 18:50:02 mathrick: no, not next one. a new subgoal for the current round 18:50:16 ah 18:50:20 sorry then 18:50:32 sb-heapdump is bit-rotten 18:50:37 of course, the trouble is, the importance of tree-shaking declines over time, due to file size being less of a concern :) 18:50:43 how about some work to prepare the ground for treading GC? 18:50:50 still, how does gzexe help with memory usage? It still needs to uncompress (including all the tempspace requirements) before launching 18:50:53 considering the current round is all about threading. 18:51:08 didn't luis do some work on the GC for his thesis? 18:51:12 and it actually *increases* memory usage, because the resulting binary won't use a shared mapping 18:51:37 stassats: afair form querying about that, the amount of locking in his algo basically ground it to single-threaded speed 18:51:48 mathrick: treeshaking will not change memory requirements significantly either 18:51:54 rsynnott: I still find it pretty stupid to ship a 25MB installer for what's essentially a simple text file DB lookup application 18:52:14 nikodemus: that's why I phrased it as making SBCL slimmer more than treeshaking as such 18:52:15 stassats: oh, ok 18:52:33 mathrick: just call it "an enterprise text file lookup application" 18:52:35 I'm remembering a discussion in here about 18-24 months ago, where pkhuong mentioned that he though tree-shaking wasn't the best method to get the effect. 18:52:42 nicdev_ [~user@static-72-74-85-37.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:44 mathrick: yep, but it's getting to be less and less of an issue, so if someone doesn't do it soon.... :) 18:52:46 I have, of course, completely forgotten the rather abstreuss details. 18:52:54 stassats: oh, was sb-heapdump the thing that was (supposed to be?) used for debian packages for some time? 18:53:25 mathrick: i wouldn't think so 18:53:25 rsynnott: eh, I'm not sure, 25MB is still a big chunk of your allowance when you're mobile 18:53:34 ok, goal updated 18:53:41 it isn't that long ago that just shipping the life-support DLLs for MS Visual C++ apps was considered a big burden, but now no-one cares about the couple of megabytes involved 18:54:13 but people are increasingly not staying put 18:54:23 spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has joined #lisp 18:54:31 -!- lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:54:32 and mobile data, especially when you count roaming, is still more expensive and slower than it should be 18:54:56 well, then just use a web-application? 18:55:30 how much funding does it take to reach the "Become best Common Lisp implementation" goal? 18:55:33 :D 18:55:38 sykopomp: 0 18:55:56 stassats: or if I could have the SBCL images, say, 1/3rd of their current size, it'd be three times less of a problem! 18:56:11 mathrick: gzip 'em? 18:56:21 that's after zipping 18:56:37 gzip a 32-bit version? 18:56:46 of the 32-bit version 18:56:54 25M? 18:57:03 32-bit core is 25M 18:57:08 granted, 12MB is the supporting libs installer, but the SBCL image itself is still 10-12 MB when compressed 18:57:10 gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-155-195-89.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:14 stassats: more like 40M 18:57:27 that's 64-bit 18:57:28 I.e. you've been doing (defun foo ...) and elsewhere some-package:foo. Then you :shadowing-import :foo and suddenly your defun is potentially redefining a function in some-package? 18:57:32 *sykopomp* usually gets 10M from 64-bit gzipped SBCL dumps. 18:57:33 especially if you build anything useful with it and aren't just shipping sbcl.core 18:58:02 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Quit: bye] 18:58:07 aliaosha [~user@123.9.198.101] has joined #lisp 18:58:55 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-169-82-70.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:59:19 a 106M core got compressed to 18MB here 19:00:34 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:00:35 all that tasty, tasty debug information 19:00:58 oh yeah, that's with debug 2 19:01:27 astalla [~astalla@dynamic-adsl-94-36-57-89.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 19:01:27 *redline6561* is still thinking how awesome portable CAS will be... :) 19:01:31 maybe we should just link with zlib and add &key compress to save-lisp-and-die :) 19:01:34 I'm wondering if some sort of "strip" function, to remove debug info, docstrings, etc would take enough of a chunk out to make it worth it 19:01:35 lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:53 That wouldn't help with RAM use, though, would it? :\ 19:02:35 -!- Joreji [~thomas@83-060.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:03:37 time to go home. goodnight! 19:04:59 sykopomp: why not? 19:05:27 well, I can see how the internal data structures would need to support being empty for it to be useful 19:05:52 I guess I'm misunderstanding... I thought if you gzipped the binary, it would just expand the binary to full size when you execute it. 19:06:10 that's not what stripping does 19:06:24 OK, so a 32-bit win32 .exe, with CL-GTK2: 67M 19:06:29 TeMPOraL [~user@cpc12-oxfd18-2-0-cust64.4-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 19:06:53 I was referring to the compression suggestion, not stripping. 19:07:01 ah, then yes 19:07:12 gzexe actually hurts RAM usage, a lot 19:07:32 and it compresses to 13M here 19:07:48 so I'm still shipping 13M before I add any support packages, data or anything 19:08:47 mathrick: has this been a problem in practice? 19:09:07 ie. do you not use lisp because it makes fat executives? 19:09:11 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:09:30 have you had anyone decide not to use your software because of the size? I wish it was smaller, on principle, but practically, it hasn't impacted me. 19:09:37 Fade: it's a significant problem for making my software autoupdateable, yes 19:09:41 sacho [~sacho@92-247-208-87.spectrumnet.bg] has joined #lisp 19:09:49 I think streamlining the process of delivering an executable package would be a really nice feature. 19:10:00 what do you mean by that? 19:10:00 mathrick: dump fasls in an update directory :D 19:10:59 it would be nice if you could shake out the image to make it smaller, but I was much more convinced it was an actual problem when I first started working in CL. 19:11:03 dlowe: yes, and have it load 5 minutes, in addition to needing to dump the image on the client machine. I'll get right on that :) 19:11:45 'course, working in radically reduced capacity environments may just mean that an image based garbage collected runtime which includes a compiler isn't the right tool for the job. 19:12:00 Fade: for me it's a problem, because a small utility I wrote takes up 120MB or so of mem just to run, and 30MB download to install 19:12:14 fisxoj [~fisxoj@71.167.167.249] has joined #lisp 19:12:35 I could make the download 13M, but it's still realistically very big, so just not worth the time spent on it 19:13:00 now, if the pure image could compress to, say, 3-4M, that'd be an entirely different matter 19:14:30 and I could actually invest time into making updater installers with binary patches which could probably be stripped down to <1M all in all, which would make it worthwile 19:15:12 Try making only awesome programs. 19:15:37 and the RAM usage is also a problem, because almost all of that is read-write memory, which is not shared 19:16:05 so running three SBCL apps costs me 300-400M, even if they're all small by themselves 19:16:22 Here's a nickel, kid. 19:16:29 VPS or something, I assume? 19:17:06 anyhow, i think a treeshaker, or something that had the effect of one would be nice. I just don't think it's a critical barrier to overcome. 19:17:08 what used to get me with a lisp webapp was the deployment process 19:17:17 the compiler should sit in a shared library, that way you wouldn't lose duplicate when you create images of apps 19:17:20 rsynnott: actually desktop apps, but it turns out to be significant when you have chrome sitting next to it 19:17:24 I was building it locally, and had terrible upstream connectivity, so deployment took a while 19:17:33 Xach: I make apps I'm paid to do. I try to squeeze in as much awesome I can, but it's still not my choice what they do at the end of the day 19:18:13 and part of the target awesomeness could be "SBCL makes it easy to have awesome delivery process" 19:18:37 it's not like I'm complaining really, I'm just saying that it's not a theoretical concern for some kind of vague future when I ship SBCL apps 19:18:52 it's been a problem for me for the past 6 months 19:19:23 well, I suspect that the feature you want could be funded. you aren't alone on the 'lisp images are too fat' front. 19:19:26 and it could be at least 20% cooler if I could produce an update that was <1M to download 19:19:36 mathrick: Hopefully two years after it happens you will find out about it. 19:19:37 heh 19:19:55 Fade: that's also why I asked nikodemus how much in his area of interest that lay :) 19:20:05 I've heard this complaint from a few pals who defected over to the land of scheme. 19:20:18 Xach: did you not sleep well today, or is something else making you grumpy? 19:20:26 *Phoodus* hasn't heard "20% cooler" on this channel til now 19:20:38 I have heard tell, however, that ECL produces pretty small executables. 19:20:38 Phoodus: that was a probe :) 19:20:55 mathrick: small updates could _possibly_ be managed through some sort of binary patching thingy 19:21:06 though how good a fit sbcl output is for that, I'm not sure 19:21:09 Fade: yes, I need to check it out too. But SBCL is way faster than ECL, which wasn't unimportant there 19:21:14 ASau [~user@93-80-104-193.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 19:21:36 ECL produces positively miniscule executables. Unfortunately, there are other problems.. 19:21:37 mathrick: Easily annoyed by your ignorance and complaints today. 19:21:47 rsynnott: yes, I know, I mentioned that too. But it's just so much less useful when you have 70M monster to patch 19:22:05 And convincing it to produce said executables for large or complicated software projects can prove...interesting. See: paktahn 19:23:00 Xach: 1) am not complaining, I was pointing out what is a very real issue with SBCL in my work (the kind of thing you'd want to fund to have worked on, y'know) 2) how exactly am I being ignorant? 19:23:26 redline6561: yes, somewhat my experience too 19:23:43 ECL can be a real bitch to get to compile 19:23:58 My first and only experience with ECL was on XP Pro 64. 19:24:14 it also doesn't help that debian's ECL is so hilariously broken that they should just remove it outright 19:24:51 I've only tried ECL on unices. I really should give it another go. Could prove interesting for some apps I'm working on and it's been a year or so. 19:24:54 I don't think we ever even got it to start 19:24:55 mathrick: gzexe breaks sbcl spectacularly, sbcl needs restartable frames. 19:25:37 Xach: I *asked* about it, got an answer, dropped the topic. UPX/gzexe does or did break SBCL, and I know it because I tried in the past 19:26:39 You don't need to live in the past. 19:26:41 I'm so very sorry I don't retry it every week, I'll make sure now to do repeat that didn't work in SBCL expecting it to change, instead of simply asking a person that could KNOW 19:26:52 Your defensive dipshittery is also annoying. 19:27:05 I'm defensive because you chose to be offensive first 19:27:35 -!- astalla [~astalla@dynamic-adsl-94-36-57-89.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Quit] 19:27:55 so if you don't want defensive dipshittery, there's a very simple way: don't start jabbing at me first 19:28:24 Next time, try "Last time I tried gzexe, it broke SBCL." Even better would be to put in a timeframe - gzexe has worked with SBCL for years. Or maybe conext: "It broke when I used a shared library." 19:28:33 rald [hazel@112.203.5.229] has joined #lisp 19:28:43 Writing that it breaks, present tense, sbcl spectacularly could lead someone to ignore a very useful tool. 19:28:57 astalla [~astalla@dynamic-adsl-94-36-57-89.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 19:29:07 Xach: now that is a valid complaint and I'll try to be more specific next time 19:29:15 -!- rald [hazel@112.203.5.229] has left #lisp 19:29:48 kwertii [~kwertii@ResNet-33-19.resnet.ucsb.edu] has joined #lisp 19:29:58 by "spectacularly" I meant "exploded with very loud complaints because it seriously didn't like what happened to address space" 19:30:20 so not some kind of specific thing such as shared libs or opengl 19:30:34 -!- Daev [~KAPITAL@nom27930d.nomadic.ncsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:33:13 -!- scottmaccal [~scottmacc@firewall.portland.lib.me.us] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 3.6.20/20110805211839]] 19:37:39 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@71.167.167.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:37:53 -!- nhonhonho [~nhonhonho@186.214.201.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:38:10 fisxoj [~fisxoj@71.167.167.249] has joined #lisp 19:38:53 rfg [~rfg@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:39:35 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@71.167.167.249] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:40:41 _mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.136.127] has joined #lisp 19:41:20 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.136.127] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:42:26 -!- blumbri [~blumbri@c-67-181-176-186.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:42:50 blumbri [~blumbri@c-67-181-176-186.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:26 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 19:44:06 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.38.98.102] has joined #lisp 19:45:37 zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has joined #lisp 19:46:21 nikodemus: any way to try to convince you to take on non stop the world GC? 19:47:17 *maxm* found that to get full performance out of CILK, i have to set bytes consed between GC's to ridiculous value like 4 gigs, and still it only achieves around 70% speedup on 4 cpus, due to stopping for GC every 10 seconds or so 19:47:39 I think most modern java's and dylan do it 19:49:21 ah I see someone already mentioned threaded GC 19:51:20 -!- dardoria [~boiantz@92-247-214-154.spectrumnet.bg] has left #lisp 19:54:39 -!- tsuru [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:55:33 yeah, I'd also be happy with stop-the-word if the GC itself used all the cores 19:55:36 +l 19:56:26 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:26 maxm: there are some sketches for mostly concurrent GC and for parallel GC. 19:56:50 but are there any kickstarters/indiegogo/whatevers yet? :) 19:56:56 cacts [~cactus@66-162-47-150.static.twtelecom.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:58 -!- cacts [~cactus@66-162-47-150.static.twtelecom.net] has left #lisp 19:58:06 maxm: one of ours is set to 9GB 19:58:34 Phoodus: I'm not even sure what the legal status of such a thing would be for me and my research scholarship ;) 19:59:01 In a pinch, flee to America. 19:59:10 Is it something that if you were paid to work on, you could get it done? 19:59:31 or is it still kind of open research as how it'd integrate with SBCL's internal assumptions? 20:00:22 -!- ocharles [u411@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-octlirhnkfbolarr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:01:23 cb` [~user@cpe-72-134-23-187.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:01:52 Phoodus: bit of both. I can see a few ways that would be fairly safe and not change too much code, but it's hard to tell whether they'd have the performance impact you're looking for. 20:02:39 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-116.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:02:48 the dylan guys have a bunch of C libraries under BSD license that apparently has all the necessary bits-n-pieces for parallel gc 20:03:02 -!- ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:03:03 Phoodus: how does multicore help you if you still have to stop all the cores to finish work, and you still need to synchronise them? 20:03:24 or are the pauses you see so long that they could actually benefit from having more CPU thrown at them? 20:03:25 mathrick: because 24 cores work for N time, then only 1 core works for M time doing GC 20:03:26 but adopting it into SBCL would probably be impossible, as it looked very self-contained/integrated 20:03:57 mathrick: and yeah, the pauses are long enough that it significantly reduces the average CPU utilization 20:04:40 with 4 gig (bytes-consed-between-gcs) each GC is around 2 seconds, so its definitely parallelizable 20:04:43 I still want that type inference framework they worked out 20:04:57 maxm: oww 20:05:26 on my workstation, I think the nursery is 1GB. There are multiple GCs per second 20:05:47 erm, maybe about 1 per second 20:05:53 yea it only comes into play when you doing parallel number crunching that conses a lot 20:06:01 *Phoodus* looks at the sawtooths on his system monitor memory 20:06:16 srid [~srid@remote.activestate.com] has joined #lisp 20:06:16 -!- srid [~srid@remote.activestate.com] has quit [Changing host] 20:06:16 srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has joined #lisp 20:06:20 stop-the-world several times a second really kills parallelism in that case 20:07:13 I might look into the manual memory allocation contexts at some point, but I'm still working on other algorithmic speed issues 20:07:25 *pkhuong* works around that with a mixture of not consing a lot and consing some stuff in the malloc heap, but that's not exactly The Right Thing. 20:07:56 Phoodus: oh, is it sawtooths and not sawteeth? 20:08:00 well I already optimized my low-level routines a lot, so the actual code I'm running is ad-hoc/relsearch code 20:08:11 that is written to test some idea and probably throw it away 20:08:34 pkhuong: how do you GC the malloc heap? 20:08:43 by its nature such code is quickly thrown together hacky stuff, which tends to cons.. Optimizing it not to cons defeats the purpose 20:09:12 oh wait, that was a stupid question, nevermind 20:10:01 Phoodus: offtopic: are you a brony, or do you just hang around people who are? 20:10:16 not a brony, but I've seen the show 20:10:23 s0ber_ [~s0ber@111-240-171-221.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:24 aha 20:12:15 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-176-240.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:12:26 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 20:13:40 maxm: actually, modern java quite often uses stop the world, but parallel scavenge 20:14:23 as for concurrent GC, there are solutions for that too. With their own drawbacks, of course 20:15:19 nice thing would be a pluggable GC with some extra hooks that could be optionally supported... 20:15:20 well if the current GC is indeed parallelizable, then IMHO doing stop-the-world but spreading GC itself over mulitple CPU would probably capture around 70% of the gains 20:15:39 the only really-really parallel GC for Java I've seen is the Azure (?) one which uses custom CPU 20:16:05 not any more 20:16:08 mathrick: I think there are some in non-Sun implementations too 20:16:25 and G1 is at least partly concurrent 20:16:33 fe[nl]ix: they ported it to something else? 20:16:44 Java's default GC *is* parallel. It's not *concurrent* 20:16:53 my current patterns 10 sec run, 2 sec GC, on quad-core box, with average CPU utilization around 75%-80% and the speedup from running on 1 thread around 350% 20:16:55 oh yes, my bad 20:17:01 I meant concurrent 20:17:20 mathrick: IIRC, cliff click(the azure chief engineer) said that recent intel cpus(Nehalem+) have all necessary features 20:17:28 isnt jrockit concurrent? 20:17:36 fe[nl]ix: but only x64 I assume? 20:17:44 so they'll be abandoning their custom architecture 20:17:48 I was thinking of going through SBCL's GC code and experimentally add Inferno/Dis' GC 20:18:00 OTOH, it's not like they sell boxes to people who care about 32-bit 20:18:16 -!- neena [~neena@unaffiliated/neenaoffline] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:18:20 Hmm 20:18:33 "invalid magic number in core: 0x10102464c457f should have been 0x5342434c." is a new sbcl error to me. 20:18:36 but when I read the paper, it seemed like it'd be very hard to implement on random stock hardware unless it was indeed latest x64 20:18:45 -!- alama [~jessealam@86.93.35.187] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 20:18:46 I dumped a core with save-lisp-and-die, but must have used some invalid option? 20:18:52 mathrick: nope, they sell boxes to people that use 1TB of ram in a single JVM instance 20:19:01 neena [~neena@pi.nipl.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:29 Xach: if bad disk/bad ram can be ruled out, it's probably a stupid core parsing/saving bug :\ 20:19:54 :( 20:20:04 TDT [~TDT@5317-nat01.eng.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 20:20:08 -!- astalla [~astalla@dynamic-adsl-94-36-57-89.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Quit] 20:20:08 i'm trying to add an option to buildapp to save a non-executable core 20:20:34 on HEAD? 20:20:36 the only thing i'm doing differently is taking out :save-runtime-options and :executable t. 20:20:39 pkhuong: yeah 20:20:54 superflit_ [~superflit@71-208-205-241.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:01 Do you have time for a mini binary search? The latest commit would be my suspect (: 20:22:03 -!- antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-2925099682.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:22:18 afraid not. i can check later though. 20:22:23 Hmm I'd be surprised if there wasn't a good way to write something like: (remove '(1 2 3) '(1 2 3 4 5)) to return 4 and 5, only. I know you could do this through a loop of removes, but is there a better way? 20:22:36 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-208-214-203.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:22:36 -!- superflit_ is now known as superflit 20:22:56 TDT: set-difference, but read the caveats. 20:22:57 TDT: would the set operations do it? (set-intersect) and so on? 20:23:04 but I remember SBCL ones were pretty slow 20:23:12 set, perfectI've used this before, couldn't think of it. Thanks 20:25:33 set-exclusive-or is also useful depending on what exactly you want 20:26:41 -!- HG` [~HG@p579F7107.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: HG`] 20:29:38 -!- sbryant- is now known as sbryant 20:30:09 optikalmouse [~user@CPE002369def1ec-CM000e5c6dba64.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:32:32 ocharles [u411@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-knhenqvdpphwqnzm] has joined #lisp 20:33:19 chp [~chp@ool-18b83194.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:23 nhonhonho [~nhonhonho@186.214.201.186] has joined #lisp 20:38:52 -!- rfg [~rfg@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: rfg] 20:41:43 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:43:54 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.87.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:45:36 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:47:39 -!- zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:50:07 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has joined #lisp 20:52:17 -!- srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:52:27 oudeis [~oudeis@89-139-52-125.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 20:53:54 srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has joined #lisp 20:54:52 Vivitron: Yeah, that works too. Pretty much all of these help out. 20:55:47 nikodemus: congrats on the reaching all of your goals 20:56:01 Basically I'm getting a list of genes that a region overlaps, and then do a similar query for anything within 60kb of the overlaps. The 60kb version of the query returns many duplicates from the 0kb version + some others. So set-difference is something I want to use to just not report on those elements already outputted from the 0kb version 20:56:01 i'm trying to wrangle up some funding that might get you close to that new goal 20:57:20 sbryant: Are you wrangling funding because that specific feature is important to you or your org? If not, it might be worth waiting for another fundraiser for threaded GC or some such. Not that such a thing is guaranteed to happen soon... 20:57:40 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:57:46 redline6561: both 20:57:49 antifuchs: ^^ Is this a sane statement? I feel like there should be a discussion on #sbcl about how to crowdfund SBCL development as a whole. 20:58:05 I donated any boss saw it and told me he's going to try and pour some money into it 20:58:08 since we use sbcl at work 20:58:20 I can not possibly comment (: 20:58:36 ...maybe the opensource/free-software tools that people use at work should be chalked up as EXPENSES. 20:58:36 since it's nikodemus who has volunteered to work for the money he raises (: 20:58:43 Good point. 20:59:00 since you know, the companies are getting FREE software and FREE development for free. 20:59:03 sbryant: Cool. Sorry if I stepped out of place. Certainly happy about all money that goes to SBCL. :) Where do you work? 20:59:10 Are you with sshirokov at Vitrue? 20:59:12 yep 20:59:12 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-154-93.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:59:23 Cool. :) 20:59:27 Yeah 20:59:44 alama [~jessealam@86.93.35.187] has joined #lisp 21:01:04 optikalmouse: no-one stops you from charging for open source or free-software... 21:01:49 and bigger corporations will actually prefer to have a ~40k USD/year contract rather than "free" :P 21:02:06 I'm kinda curious if nikodemus works full time too, or just does this full time..or os planning to 21:02:22 p_l|backup: I say that all the time, I just had the thought that maybe devs should donate to projects and then expense it to the company 21:02:37 TDT: I think he's doing freelancing? like most devs? :S 21:02:39 -!- paul0 [~paul0@189.101.242.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:03:14 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:03:20 wish I could do more freelancing, I work one jobfreelancing would be nice for a change of pace 21:04:17 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-146-174.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 21:05:51 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.38.98.102] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:07:38 zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has joined #lisp 21:09:42 *maxm* has no idea how ppl manage to freelance with any decent rate 21:10:56 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 21:11:04 like small companies have unrealistic expectations of the rates, ie $12/hour etc.. And how the hell s&p 500 big companies justify hiring indian guys, is beyond me, when Wipro/Sintel/Accenture/Tata are charging $70/hour for _testers_ 21:12:14 *maxm* is taking a sabbatical to do his own projects, but if they do not pan out, I'll have to bite the bullet and go take regular "joe programmer" kind of job for $60-70k 21:12:33 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@89-139-52-125.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:12:45 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@nat/google/x-lpddqrytfcvvmzqz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:12:58 *redline6561* has that job 21:14:44 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-146-174.vologda.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:14:55 hope ppl will not look into 1 year expirience gap badly.. These articles about "companies want to only hire ppl who are already working" are scaring me a bit 21:15:01 maxm: those large companies can do that because other people confuse monetary value with actual value. 21:15:09 higher price = better quality. 21:15:14 I should put all my stuff into github to show I know wtf I'm doing 21:15:41 rolando [~user@188.89.166.178.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 21:16:46 maxm: I think it comes down to justification, if you can justify why you took the break, then I doubt there'd be an issue 21:17:02 Especially if you're taking a year off to do some open-source project 21:17:57 ngz [~user@161.227.69.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:32 slyrus__ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:38 maxm: that's how you can get hired at startups 21:19:46 yea actually google sent me email a few years back, after I posted some patch to SBCL mailing list, saying "we noticed your activity on open source mailing lists", I sent them resume and they wanted me to fly in for an interview 21:20:16 but asked before hand what is the max salary, they said "60k" tops, "but you will have the prestige of working for google" 21:21:00 they probably contacted lots of other SBCL contributors too 21:21:03 depending on where you're at, 60k would be enough. 21:21:17 I make less than 60k here 21:21:21 *maxm* is in NYC, 60k is barely enough to cover living expanses 21:21:39 yeahin NYC, yeha you're right 21:22:14 where i live 60k/year is a pretty good salary 21:22:22 same here 21:22:39 -!- jdz [~jdz@host35-70-dynamic.54-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:22:39 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.38.98.102] has joined #lisp 21:22:41 well that must be texas/south? I heard living really cheap there 21:22:49 it's portugal 21:22:54 Iowa here. 21:22:58 ah doh, forgot its international channel :-) 21:23:19 and yes i mean 41k euros, not 60k 21:24:00 well 40k euros is 80k US dollars, plus you get free health care 21:24:09 US healthcare is 1000/mo + 21:24:20 40k euros is not 80k usd 21:24:36 the exchange rate isn't that high anymore :P 21:24:37 doh mixed it up with pounds 21:25:15 maxm: no you don't really get free health care 21:25:22 ostensibly you do 21:25:24 40eur=~60usd? 21:25:38 current rate is 1.43 or thereabouts 21:25:46 ehu: use google 21:25:54 "40 euros in usd" 21:25:55 I did 21:25:58 57 21:26:24 paul0 [~paul0@189.101.242.184] has joined #lisp 21:26:33 so hows portugal, should I buy your bonds, or you guys gonna pull a greece? :-) 21:26:43 pulling a greece 21:27:07 meh, 10% is pretty attractive 21:27:38 the only good decent thing about portugal is the land itself 21:28:15 oudeis [~oudeis@109.67.211.114] has joined #lisp 21:28:45 frhodes_ [~frhodes@75-173-84-172.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:52 -!- frhodes [~frhodes@75-173-84-172.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:30:24 realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:05 -!- sacho [~sacho@92-247-208-87.spectrumnet.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:31:17 hmm, is it common around the world for people to talk about yearly salaries? 21:31:19 rfg [~rfg@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:31:54 Around here everyone always talks about it by the month 21:32:35 US is year based, and before taxes 21:32:37 drdo: Yeah, in the US at least, it's annual salary that people talk about. 21:32:37 I think yearly is mostly a US thing. 21:32:54 Yes i know that you do that in the US 21:33:00 Everywhere else I've heard goes primarily by monthly. 21:33:02 I was wondering how it is around the world 21:33:12 <-- .is, months 21:33:22 take home is slightly above 50-60% for self-employed :-\ 21:33:38 maxm: take home? 21:33:44 oh taxes 21:34:10 maxm: what's the vat rate like there? 21:34:26 if I make 100k, my bank account shows 60k, 40k goes to taxes... federal, state, city, social security individual part, social security employer part, disability insurance, unemployment insurance 21:34:27 tsuru [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:32 US mostly doesn't do VAT. 21:34:48 -!- slyrus__ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:34:53 that's cool 21:34:53 -!- alama [~jessealam@86.93.35.187] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:35:15 drdo: Not really. Their replacement is often sales tax, which is even more regressive. 21:35:22 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 21:35:30 (Which is an achievement, considering how regressive VAT taxation is.) 21:35:30 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 21:35:42 OT OT OT 21:35:44 there is no federal vat, but there is state and city one (varies by state)... Ny one is 4% 21:36:26 -!- paul0 [~paul0@189.101.242.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:36:34 fe[nl]ix: Sorry, are we drowning your on-topic conversation? :p 21:36:37 we got a level III cytologist in the house! 21:36:44 *maxm* shuts up :-) 21:36:47 maxm: you have cheap as fuck computers 21:36:49 The nice thing is sales tax hasn't hit online purchases unless there's a store in your statewhich hurts buying a computer, but stuff from amazon is cheap 21:36:53 scientologist I meant 21:37:25 you easily pay around double price here for a computer 21:37:34 maxm: Are those allowed on the internet without church supervision? 21:38:18 Odin-: yes, definitely 21:39:00 How expensive are regular goods in the US? (food, etc) 21:39:43 drdo: How expensive are they in Europe? 21:39:58 sellout: it varies A LOT between countries 21:40:07 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-188-176.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:40:10 drdo: Same here, between states ;) 21:40:27 sellout: It varies by factors around 5 here, easily 21:40:37 Ok, that's a lot  21:40:46 cfy` [~cfy@125.123.40.48] has joined #lisp 21:41:05 sellout: let's say 1kg of some beef, about how much is that? 21:41:18 I never really noticed too much, despite traveling around there a lot. I know ice cream is super-cheap in Slovakia, though :) 21:41:25 ##cpi might be interested in this converation. 21:41:37 2 scoops for 080e 21:41:44 What's cpi? 21:41:52 mvarela [~mvr.renne@85-23-68-193.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 21:41:53 080, even. 21:42:01 sellout: we don't do that 21:42:04 it's 0.8 euros 21:42:11 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:42:12 or just 80 cents 21:42:14 drdo: Which country are you in? 21:42:18 portugal 21:42:41 France and Slovakia both do 080. 21:42:52 we never write it like that here 21:43:00 paul0 [~paul0@189.101.242.184] has joined #lisp 21:43:13 sellout: about how much is 1kg of beef in the US? 21:43:21 just so i get some sense for how expensive it is 21:43:34 drdo: Ground beef? Like $12 or so? 21:43:49 So like 8 21:43:54 that's not expensive at all 21:44:11 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:44:15 drdo: No, the US is cheap compared to western Europe. 21:44:28 why can't you live very comfortably on 60k/year? 21:44:57 drdo: Oh, in NYC? 21:45:03 That's a little different. 21:45:42 You're spending like $36k/year on rent, there. 21:46:06 what the fuck 21:46:31 that's a lot... 21:46:36 yes 21:46:50 drdo: Here's some cost-comparison between housing and rental markets around the US: http://explore.trulia.com/datavis/rentvsbuy/Q2-2011/ 21:46:51 not even a house in algarve must cost that much 21:47:50 about 2000/month 21:47:59 damn 21:49:08 *rolando* feels like for that price you could live in a hotel 21:49:46 sure, in jersey. 21:49:58 -!- mvarela [~mvr.renne@85-23-68-193.bb.dnainternet.fi] has left #lisp 21:49:59 room service gets old 21:50:34 -!- paul0 [~paul0@189.101.242.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:50:59 plus, that sort of living often doesn't end well... think belushi at the marmont. 21:52:14 drdo: do you actually use lisp in your work? 21:52:21 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:52:32 even my AI teachers use prolog 21:52:40 rolando: i'm studying atm 21:53:01 *rolando* makes the secret student handshake 21:53:07 the what? 21:53:33 you know, like those gang signs 21:53:41 I'm also studying 21:53:47 where? 21:53:48 -!- TDT [~TDT@5317-nat01.eng.uiowa.edu] has left #lisp 21:53:57 porto 21:54:13 i'm at ist 21:54:30 feup here 21:54:38 ye figured 21:54:44 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.233] has joined #lisp 21:55:27 now for a little ontopic moment 21:55:37 has anyone used Bee Lisp? 21:56:01 http://www.beelisp.com/index.html <--- this 21:56:25 paul0 [~paul0@189.101.242.184] has joined #lisp 21:57:12 waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-5d87ff68.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:57 rolando: huh, haven't heard of that yet 21:58:11 looks interesting, but it doesn't say which "Lisp language" it actually implements (: 21:58:53 I was in a programming forum and someone mentioned that they would learn lisp with that implementation 21:59:01 and it's only $25! 21:59:19 o_O pay money for a lisp? 21:59:25 I was under the impression that the only commercial lisp implementation were franz and lispworks 21:59:29 why would you do that? 21:59:42 the language on the web site seems very hand-wavy, and there doesn't seem to be public documentation available 21:59:43 antifuchs: I believe it's common lisp due to the screenshots 21:59:44 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:59:54 (the word order on that is messed up) (: 21:59:57 you see a lot of setf there :) 22:00:08 it looks a bit like CL, but that doesn't mean it must be cl (: 22:00:18 rolando: There's Scieneer, probably others 22:00:28 there's franz, lispworks, scieneer and corman. 22:00:40 could be a rebranded corman lisp, maybe? who knows! (: 22:00:42 antifuchs: it also has defun and cond 22:00:47 (and who wants to spend $25 (:) 22:00:57 it has a demo 22:00:57 rolando: could be emacs lisp also, going by the identifiers (; 22:01:16 a commercial implementation of elisp 22:01:34 http://www.beelisp.com/online-help/default.htm grammar errors aren't filling me with confidence 22:01:51 Bike: for $25 I'm sold! 22:01:52 :p 22:01:58 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:02:12 "Classical Lisp support" is the most specific the web site seems to give away. I'm betting it's an in-house dialect 22:02:13 apparently you can generate .exe files with the demo version 22:02:23 but no way to judge, since there are no docs around (: 22:02:40 The docs don't seem very helpful as to how to actually program. 22:03:48 I just noticed that the system requirements don't mention windows 7 22:04:43 and the simple "EVALUATOR" program involves Borland C++ and isn't your usual short metacircular interpreter... "Use  ONS, button to add a new element to the beginning of the lisp. Then, press EVAL ." 22:04:53 ugh I hate working with PHP. 22:05:10 I'll fire up my windows vm and check out the demo 22:05:14 has someone written a decent CMS/blog/shopping-site-thingy in lisp? 22:06:09 MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-097-129-008.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:08:58 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-139-113.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:09:06 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-139-113.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:09:32 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:09:46 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@cpc12-oxfd18-2-0-cust64.4-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:10:41 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-127.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:10:55 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-127.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:11:12 optikalmouse, I wrote a small blog this summer, decent is not how i would describe it :) 22:11:24 im kind of still a web noob 22:12:02 And I've written a crappy reddit clone in clojure too 22:13:24 optikalmouse: Saw one on github a while back. Can't remember where now. archimag and billstclair both wrote blogware in lisp recently. I wrote something have finished this spring myself. Also a web noob. 22:13:29 optikalmouse: some of earlier "enterprise" web systems involved CL, long before the advent of CMS etc. (and back when a single LispM could handle the traffic...) 22:13:56 optikalmouse: As for a store, I could swear there was a russian one on github based on RESTAS but can't find it now. 22:15:45 pavelludiq: how many lines of code was your blog? what kind of DB did you use? 22:15:58 p_l|backup: hm, ok 22:16:19 I've been thinking about writing a CMS that can do all that the php cmses can do but without the hacks heh. 22:17:00 optikalmouse, I used postmedern and PostgresQL, as for lines, it was in the repl so i don't know :) 22:17:12 pavelludiq: lol awesome ;p 22:19:50 Joreji [~thomas@64-073.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:20:22 -!- mgr [~mgr@mail.phinn.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:21:29 mgr [~mgr@mail.phinn.de] has joined #lisp 22:22:15 redline6561, is this the store? https://github.com/rigidus/cl-eshop 22:22:25 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:23:13 Ha. That's the one. Thanks pavelludiq 22:23:33 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:24:31 found it following a mention of the author on archimags blog, so those Russian classes in high-school were not a waste of time after all :) 22:25:54 -!- tsuru [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:26:06 greenstallion_ [~greenstal@dslb-188-104-205-155.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:14 mrSpec [~Spec@pool-151-204-255-122.bstnma.btas.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:14 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@pool-151-204-255-122.bstnma.btas.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:27:14 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 22:27:56 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@109.67.211.114] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:28:29 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:28:42 -!- xan_ [~xan@94.119.4.118] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:31:04 -!- greenstallion_ [~greenstal@dslb-188-104-205-155.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:31:08 Nice. I saw it on github and try to read the blog once in a while via google translate 22:33:35 -!- frhodes_ [~frhodes@75-173-84-172.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:34:58 I've found a lot of good reading about lisp in Russian 22:35:28 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:40:24 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 22:42:30 frhodes [~frhodes@75-173-84-172.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:30 -!- frhodes [~frhodes@75-173-84-172.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:42:50 -!- zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:42:51 frhodes [~frhodes@75-173-84-172.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:40 -!- gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-155-195-89.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:44:13 -!- nhonhonho [~nhonhonho@186.214.201.186] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:45:16 nicdev [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 22:45:37 http://paste.lisp.org/display/124271 22:45:46 doesn't look like bee lisp uses common lisp 22:46:02 I don't think that's a valid defstruct syntax 22:46:38 that is not CL defstruct syntax 22:46:57 Is it indented like that too? 22:47:26 Bike: yeah 22:49:48 it's from the file samples/miniWin/SRC/struct.LSP 22:50:04 -!- optikalmouse [~user@CPE002369def1ec-CM000e5c6dba64.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:51:47 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 22:52:20 also the IDE (at least in the demo version) is pretty much just notepad.exe but with and adicional "Compiler" menu 22:52:48 just like emacs! 22:53:05 shaq [~shaq@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 22:53:07 hi 22:53:13 can someone explain how this works? (+ . (1 . (2))) 22:54:41 shaq: in CL, the semantics are defined on the objects, not the external representation, and multiple external representations can result in the same objects. 22:54:54 Xach: :( 22:54:56 shaq: in that case, that syntax results in the same objects as (+ 1 2) 22:55:17 but we didn't provide nil? 22:55:21 ftp://ftp.ua.pt/incoming/lisp/bee_lisp_ide.png 22:55:26 forgive the lousy resolution 22:55:27 shaq: (2) is the same as (2 . nil) 22:55:28 (2) = (cons 2 nil) 22:55:46 also why doesn't this provide the same result? (cons '+ (cons 1 (cons 2 nil))) 22:57:02 *rolando* notices the "getdword", "malloc" and "free" functions 22:57:28 shaq: You're confusing the reader and the evaluator. 22:58:02 I guess I'll suggest that the guy should use lispworks or something 22:58:17 rolando: I can't see your image. 22:58:38 that happens sometimes, I'll upload it imgur 23:00:23 zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has joined #lisp 23:01:28 http://i.imgur.com/PesTK.png 23:01:36 try this one Bike 23:02:19 Thin C wrapper? 23:02:21 omegapunkt [~textual@60.234.20.206] has joined #lisp 23:03:30 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.233] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:03:54 possibly 23:04:05 it has loop though 23:04:34 -!- pkhuong [~pkhuong@gravelga.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:05:00 also 'include "struct.lsp"', ie. without the parentheses, is apparently a valid expression 23:06:21 are specials shared between threads or each thread has it's own? 23:07:40 not shared 23:07:43 usually 23:08:22 how does one decide if they are shared or per thread 23:09:01 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.237] has joined #lisp 23:09:06 shaq, threads aren't in the standard, so its implementation dependent 23:09:37 http://common-lisp.net/project/bordeaux-threads/ is pretty much the defacto standard? 23:10:17 shaq: like pavelludiq said, implementation depedant 23:10:50 i believe in most implementations, they are just not shared (except toplevel bindings obviously) 23:10:52 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Quit: bye] 23:11:25 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 23:12:07 meaning if I do (defparameter *foo* nil) on top, then (let ((*foo* something)) .. ) reassignment of *foo* is seen only in the current thread? 23:12:19 http://www.sbcl.org/manual/index.html#Special-Variables 23:12:26 check the docs 23:12:27 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 23:14:37 -!- srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has quit [Quit: quitting] 23:16:27 sbryant: Yes, it is. 23:16:36 Hopefully Madeira will improve on that... 23:17:06 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has quit [Client Quit] 23:17:13 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 23:17:37 -!- paul0 [~paul0@189.101.242.184] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:17:41 alama [~jessealam@86.93.35.187] has joined #lisp 23:17:53 paul0 [~paul0@189.101.242.184] has joined #lisp 23:24:11 scottmaccal [~scottmacc@pool-71-173-64-159.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 23:24:28 perfect. so let affects current thread, and if I want to value of special in all thread's I just use setf ? 23:24:36 to affect 23:26:05 H4ns` [~user@p4FFC95E4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:22 -!- scottmaccal [~scottmacc@pool-71-173-64-159.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 3.6.20/20110805211839]] 23:29:44 -!- H4ns [~user@p4FFC8DA3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:31:45 scottmaccal [~scottmacc@pool-71-173-64-159.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 23:33:35 -!- martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:34:44 -!- ngz [~user@161.227.69.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:36:58 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-82-058.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:37:04 scottmaccal_ [~scottmacc@pool-71-173-86-89.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:48 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-82-058.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 23:38:05 timepilot [~timepilot@c-24-91-16-174.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:39:01 -!- scottmaccal [~scottmacc@pool-71-173-64-159.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:39:16 -!- scottmaccal_ is now known as scottmaccal 23:42:45 martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:43:48 -!- spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [Quit: spacefrogg] 23:44:38 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 23:45:25 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:49:23 *Xach* updates buildapp 23:52:31 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:52:48 -!- pavelludiq [~pavelludi@87.246.58.193] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:54:06 argh, i get that invalid magic number problem even in a very old sbcl 23:54:12 i wonder what i'm doing wrong 23:54:49 -!- Joreji [~thomas@64-073.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:55:19 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:55:37 -!- rtoyg [~chatzilla@nat/google/x-fywlqnixinsivrfx] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:56:57 LiamH [~healy@pool-108-45-20-16.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:48 -!- aliaosha [~user@123.9.198.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:57:53 -!- cfy` is now known as cfy 23:57:55 -!- cfy [~cfy@125.123.40.48] has quit [Changing host] 23:57:55 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 23:58:53 apparmor maybe? 23:59:09 No, I think I'm just plain screwing something simple up. 23:59:13 -!- MeanWeen is now known as kycklingsnacks 23:59:17 it shuffles heap around to prevent known addresses from being exploited by buffer overflows 23:59:47 i meant not heap, but it shuffles where C lib and other shared libs are mapped