00:00:30 -!- benny [~benny@i577A7686.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:01:35 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:02:16 Is there something weird about cl-ppcre:create-scanner? When I funcall a scanner made with it I get a memory fault in SBCL, even though the same regex works fine with cl-ppcre:scan. 00:04:06 Joreji [~thomas@83-096.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 00:04:14 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-74-67-199-254.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:05:19 you funcall it wrongly? 00:05:35 Bike: I'm pretty sure you're supposed to invoke these pre-compiled scanners with SCAN. 00:06:10 Oh, so you are. Whoops. Thanks. 00:07:20 although you can funcall it (that's just what ppcre:scan does) 00:10:41 dnolen [~davidnole@71.249.148.232] has joined #lisp 00:13:42 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.212.42] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 00:14:50 -!- nicdev_ [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: nicdev_] 00:17:17 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-74-66-9-78.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 00:19:24 nicdev_ [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 00:25:44 *maxm* is playing with commonqt and it rocks so far 00:26:06 great 00:26:37 added nicer integration macros, with demacs it was easy to add custom flag to function/method definer, so I can do stuff like 00:26:55 (def (function q) make-window () 00:27:16 (let ((q (new QDialog))) (q.setTitle "Blah") (q.show))) 00:27:57 i wouldn't call it nicer 00:27:58 repl integration works, so I can do (q.whatever ) from repl, and it executes in gui thread 00:28:04 what is that dialect? 00:28:22 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA42E3E.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:28:27 pkhuong: cl++ 00:28:30 much easier on the eyes then defalut (#_qtmethod instance) reader macro 00:29:04 -!- dlila [~dlila@CPE0014d1c9243c-CM001bd71cede2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:29:16 q->setTitle... 00:29:25 maxm: but that's more lisp-like! 00:29:32 *just joking) 00:29:50 its just syntaxic sugar, but allows you to code faster and looks better... (window.getChild.getSubChild.setWhatever 0) is much more understandable then (#_setWhatever (#_getSubChild (#_getChild window)) 0) 00:30:11 and how did you make q.setTitle to parse to "setTitle"? 00:30:25 #_ is a reader macro which preserves case 00:30:42 maxm: not to me 00:31:21 the (def ) macro uses clos to expand its content, so I added custom function-definer to it, that just parses the body, and dumbly replaces any symbol with the dot in it, with the commonQt code to do the method call 00:31:33 (>> window #_getChild #_getSubChild (#_setWhatever 0)) 00:31:46 ah also have to use :invert readdable, so that I I can get camelCase symbols 00:32:09 so, your solution is even less viable 00:32:33 thats the beauty of lisp, everyone can come up with the solution most suitable to them, and quickly 00:33:05 yes, but if you could share it with a greater audience it'd better 00:33:39 taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:06 well but that would lead to forever lispy vs non-lispy arguments.. IMHO when in rome do as romans do, and working with Qt library, the (obj.subobj.subsubobj.method arg0 arg1 arg2) syntax is most natural 00:34:29 maxm: well, but you are writing in lisp, not in c++ 00:35:25 well but I'm working with C++ gui library.. If I want Lispy gui library I would use McClim or such 00:35:41 cl-smoke generate all the methods at compile-time, so that you can get rid of #_, but there are many methods and it's quite slow 00:35:56 maxm: why don't you just use C++ then? 00:36:20 it has far better integration with Qt 00:36:28 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-107-68.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:36:43 yea I was choosing between cl-smoke and commonqt, commonqt seemed more mature, and it seems good choice so far.. Nicely written, was easy to extend (one extesion I had to add is marshalling for QVector so I can create QPolygonF's 00:37:30 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-156-87.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:37:36 maxm: my (and your) CL:CAR is written in assembly. How does that affect the way you code in rome? 00:37:51 stassats`: faster to develop in lisp.. Already I can prototype much faster then in C++.. My window is right there on the screen, live.. I can do (window.myView.horizontalScrollBar.setValue 30) right from repl, and see my window scroll 00:38:25 maxm: you haven't learned to love gdb and ld.so enough yet. 00:39:05 but you don't have to add marshalling and such when doing C++ 00:39:36 (defun car (k) (funcall k (lambda (a d) a))) ; my car is written in lisp. 00:39:54 meh @ purists :-) 00:40:12 i've spent so much time debugging commonqt that i could've rewritten my entire application in C++, but C++ sucks 00:41:17 you use c++ for c++ stuff, and lisp for lisp stuff.. Its easier to rapidly prototype and develop new concepts/approaches in lisp.. Its easier to get good performance in C++, and also C++ has better libraries generally 00:41:37 i use lisp for everything 00:42:19 well there is that approach, but there is no lisp equivalent of Qt.. And if you say "qt sucks" then you are a purist. Qt is very good for rapidly coming up with a nice and user friendly gui 00:42:44 well, there's commonqt which allows me to use lisp for GUIs 00:43:06 lol which is exactly what I'm using :-) 00:43:23 yes, but you're turning your lisp into C++! 00:45:26 not really, I only use that style of coding for my gui stuff...It just looks nicer to me that way.. Could probably handled in less non-lispy ways by writing a reader macro like #[window getChild getSubChild setWhatever args] rather then split symbol names 00:46:21 maxm: that way it's neither lispy, nor c++y 00:46:43 well what do you suggest? default #_ stuff makes me cringe, its un-readable 00:46:57 brace yourself! 00:46:57 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.14.86] has joined #lisp 00:47:02 I mean when you nest it, and in qt its very often you need to get 3 objects down then call a method 00:47:19 you can use nested (let*) but then 1 line becomes 4 00:47:59 maxm on what platform/lisp did you test commonqt? is it portable cross platforms (linux, osx, win) 00:48:06 kennyd: it is 00:48:23 opensuse, it looks to be pretty portable, it uses qmake .pro file for C++ part 00:48:31 and cffi for calling into it 00:48:47 opensuse and sbcl I meant 00:51:25 ah and uses smoke (which is basically generic bindings lib for Qt), so portability wise probably depends on how portable Smoke library is. It uses very few foreign functions, most of the wrapping is handle by smoke lib. 00:52:20 fbass [~fbass@71-222-133-20.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:53:54 -!- fbass [~fbass@71-222-133-20.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:55:52 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-127-009.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 00:57:09 fbass [~fbass@71-222-133-20.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:57:17 -!- fbass [~fbass@71-222-133-20.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:57:23 fbass [~fbass@71-222-133-20.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:18 blb [~blb@c-24-11-236-117.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:22 pnq [~nick@AC83C14F.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 01:04:22 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:05:26 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-165-188.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:05 -!- nicdev_ [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: nicdev_] 01:13:51 -!- fbass [~fbass@71-222-133-20.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:17:26 fbass [~fbass@71-222-133-20.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:17:48 frx [~frx@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 01:23:29 -!- SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@VEROXITY.ipcolo1.SanFrancisco1.Level3.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:27:21 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 01:28:55 -!- fourier` [~user@h-144-64.a176.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:31:11 -!- blb [~blb@c-24-11-236-117.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:35:24 realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:36:41 tritchey [~tritchey@12.33.214.130] has joined #lisp 01:36:55 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216.239.45.17] has quit [Quit: Offline] 01:43:27 What controls whether a browser decides to display a file or save it? Something specific in the HTTP headers or just the mime type? 01:43:45 Or the phase of the moon? 01:44:45 there's some attachment header 01:45:06 Content-Disposition, I think. 01:46:41 -!- peearr [~aaron@159.153.4.51] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:47:14 giga: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIME#Content-Disposition 01:49:54 hussaibi [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has joined #lisp 01:49:56 hussaibi_ [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has joined #lisp 01:50:08 zfx: thanks. 01:50:24 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: ZZZzzzzzz...] 01:50:31 I wonder if Hunchentoot is setting that for certain file extensions or mimetypes. 01:50:40 Or possibly the browser also has its own heuristics. 01:51:00 some browsers allow you to configure what happens with certain file types. 01:51:11 -!- daniel__ [~daniel@p5082AFE4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:52:20 BrokenCog [~bc@ip98-162-173-207.pn.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:10 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.138.159] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:58:34 rme [~rme@50.43.138.159] has joined #lisp 01:59:09 nicdev_ [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 02:03:12 corni [~corni@flower-139-148.visitor.camp.ccc.de] has joined #lisp 02:03:12 -!- corni [~corni@flower-139-148.visitor.camp.ccc.de] has quit [Changing host] 02:03:13 corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has joined #lisp 02:03:55 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 02:11:00 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:12:21 wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-74-66-9-78.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:14:51 -!- Levenson [~Levenson@95.59.96.124] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:16:20 -!- Joreji [~thomas@83-096.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:16:47 -!- mmauryc [~mmmau@cpe-69-201-143-154.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:19:19 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A2BE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:21:04 -!- corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 02:21:15 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@12.33.214.130] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 02:21:24 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@71.249.148.232] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 02:24:00 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:26:34 stepnem [~stepnem@90.177.119.176] has joined #lisp 02:28:22 -!- mikejs [~mike@ec2-50-16-185-74.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:28:27 *sykopomp* wonders how many people actually use alexandria:curry, and mapcar with lambda. 02:29:11 -!- michelp` [~michelp@ec2-50-17-232-64.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:29:21 -!- xristos [~x@ec2-107-20-233-212.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:31:14 -!- am0c [~am0c@218.51.116.50] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:34:37 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-181-173.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:39:37 sbalouse1 [~sbalouse@ip174-67-214-212.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:40:07 -!- sbalouse1 [~sbalouse@ip174-67-214-212.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:40:32 sbalouse1 [~sbalouse@ip174-67-214-212.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:40:45 -!- sbalouse1 [~sbalouse@ip174-67-214-212.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:45:22 sykopomp: mapcar with lambda is used quite often. 02:46:46 pjb: do you ever use partial application? 02:47:02 It happens. 02:47:20 sykopomp: it should be usued more often, IMO. 02:48:33 veered [~veered@cpe-76-187-209-53.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:48:35 -!- BrokenCog [~bc@ip98-162-173-207.pn.at.cox.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:48:37 Yeah. I've grown to be a fan of the partial/rpartial/compose combo. 02:51:30 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.58.15.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:51:53 ISF [~ivan@187.106.54.41] has joined #lisp 02:54:01 daniel [~daniel@p50829BCB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:56:19 mikejs [~mike@ec2-50-16-185-74.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 02:56:25 xristos [~x@ec2-107-20-233-212.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 02:56:36 -!- xristos is now known as Guest74278 02:57:14 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.123.248.219] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 02:58:44 dniced [~dnice@207.204.246.17] has joined #lisp 02:59:44 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-165-188.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:00:06 -!- dniced is now known as dnice 03:00:34 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:01:15 spradnyesh [~pradyus@117.192.46.121] has joined #lisp 03:01:23 michelp` [~michelp@ec2-50-17-232-64.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 03:03:36 Mococa [~Mococa@187.58.15.37] has joined #lisp 03:03:54 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:05:08 -!- pnq [~nick@AC83C14F.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:05:28 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@117.192.46.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:07:53 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:08:35 veered_ [~veered@cpe-76-187-209-53.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:10:35 -!- veered [~veered@cpe-76-187-209-53.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:11:48 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 03:14:07 hussaibi__ [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has joined #lisp 03:14:15 -!- hussaibi__ [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 03:20:08 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-hvymimublsnrguid] has joined #lisp 03:22:42 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:22:53 Good morning everyone! 03:22:53 -!- fbass [~fbass@71-222-133-20.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:23:08 hello! 03:24:34 cfy [~cfy@125.123.49.244] has joined #lisp 03:24:34 -!- cfy [~cfy@125.123.49.244] has quit [Changing host] 03:24:34 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 03:27:25 -!- frx [~frx@76.73.16.26] has quit [Quit: bye] 03:30:39 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:30:39 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-74-67-199-254.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:31:59 cfy [~cfy@125.123.49.244] has joined #lisp 03:31:59 -!- cfy [~cfy@125.123.49.244] has quit [Changing host] 03:31:59 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 03:32:41 -!- jsnell [~jsnell@ash.snellman.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:38:13 asteCOLLEGE [814e2017@gateway/web/freenode/ip.129.78.32.23] has joined #lisp 03:38:34 (print hello world" 03:41:05 jsnell [~jsnell@ash.snellman.net] has joined #lisp 03:41:56 blb [~blb@c-24-11-236-117.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:34 SICP makes me feel like a noob 03:42:44 Even though I'm about to graduate from college 03:43:10 -!- replore [~replore@ntkngw133234.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:43:11 lisp makes me feel like noob. 03:43:21 even though I'm about to learn Haskell. 03:43:56 fbass [~fbass@71-222-133-20.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:35 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@90.177.119.176] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 03:47:34 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 03:50:06 Analoso [~AnalSplat@189.220.55.78.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has joined #lisp 04:00:53 -!- Analoso is now known as Cagadero 04:01:11 -!- hussaibi [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:01:40 -!- Cagadero is now known as TIjuanense 04:01:42 -!- hussaibi_ [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:02:20 -!- TIjuanense is now known as Cachanilla 04:02:37 -!- Cachanilla is now known as Cachanillo 04:06:16 -!- asteCOLLEGE [814e2017@gateway/web/freenode/ip.129.78.32.23] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:07:42 -!- Cachanillo is now known as analsplatter 04:09:05 -!- analsplatter is now known as Cachanillo 04:11:35 kami``` [~user@p57A2C381.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:11:38 good morning 04:12:06 hello kami``` 04:12:59 plage: how are you? Are you back from Asia? 04:15:35 -!- fbass [~fbass@71-222-133-20.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:16:24 -!- kami``` [~user@p57A2C381.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:16:42 -!- Guest20753 is now known as lucca 04:16:52 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.119.222] has joined #lisp 04:17:13 kami```: Fine thanks. Yes, in Bordeaux, but still working mainly with the Vietnamese. So I get up at 4 or 5 am to work with them. In a few hours I do interviews by webcam with candidates there. Very strange. I go back to VN end of October. 04:17:25 [oh, he left] 04:17:26 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-hvymimublsnrguid] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:19:13 kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 04:19:26 leo2007 [~leo@123.123.248.219] has joined #lisp 04:20:33 plage: sorry. I was DC'd, but I read your response in the logs. 04:20:52 plage: are you now running a business there? or is that part of your academic work? 04:21:34 *kami`* is maybe a bit too curious 04:22:38 [OT] why they call 'camera ready copies' in printing? 04:22:47 -!- kami` is now known as kami 04:23:01 kami`: I am in charge of the 3rd-year teaching program in informatics there. 04:23:18 Ah, I see. 04:23:21 kami: It is a degree from teh university of Bordeaux delivered there. 04:23:41 kami: How about yourself? What are you up to these days? 04:24:48 kami: I am also very involved in the other informatics programs there: first and second year informatics and the masters program. 04:25:09 sorry wrong channel. 04:25:15 plage: I am working very hard on Java projects and have had very little time for lisp (and #lisp) 04:25:49 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:26:33 plage: does the UoB have a 'branch' there? 04:28:16 hussaibi [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has joined #lisp 04:28:21 hussaibi_ [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has joined #lisp 04:28:22 hmmm, I'd love to study in france 04:29:00 -!- lakkris [kvirc@pool-71-164-242-237.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:30:08 hussaibi__ [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has joined #lisp 04:30:47 -!- ISF [~ivan@187.106.54.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:31:25 -!- zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:33:59 -!- hussaibi_ [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:34:36 -!- hussaibi [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:34:50 hussaibi [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has joined #lisp 04:37:17 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-owvxvlohegbirapc] has joined #lisp 04:37:19 _pw_ [~user@123.112.73.218] has joined #lisp 04:38:11 -!- veered_ [~veered@cpe-76-187-209-53.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:39:06 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 04:40:27 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 04:41:13 benny [~benny@i577A1DF9.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 04:41:41 -!- hussaibi__ [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:42:14 -!- hussaibi [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:42:24 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:44:34 why? 04:45:21 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.119.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:45:32 good morning all 04:47:53 -!- rme [rme@A992A077.BBBE3EE8.699BA7A6.IP] has quit [Quit: rme] 04:47:53 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.138.159] has quit [Quit: rme] 04:52:32 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.58.15.37] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:52:49 zmyrgel [~user@193.64.112.22] has joined #lisp 04:53:50 -!- kslt1 [~karl.sier@netblock-208-127-156-174.dslextreme.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:54:39 hussaibi [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has joined #lisp 04:54:47 hussaibi_ [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has joined #lisp 04:59:40 -!- Hundenn [~Hunden@e180102214.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:59:57 -!- cYmen [~cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:00:03 cYmen [~cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has joined #lisp 05:02:30 -!- Cachanillo [~AnalSplat@189.220.55.78.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has quit [K-Lined] 05:03:17 Hunden [~Hunden@e180097090.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 05:13:47 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-166-45.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:17:39 dnice: Why don't you. 05:18:00 It's a terrifying proposition 05:18:09 leo2007: Because we have excellent teaching programs at reasonable costs. 05:18:24 dnice: Because of the language barrier? 05:18:28 Yes. 05:18:38 Also, finances. 05:18:48 dnice: Where are you now? 05:18:54 bogdanr [~bogdanr@adsl-75-57-134-253.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:19:01 In the US. At Auburn University 05:19:11 I'm on scholarship here 05:19:11 You'll save a lot of money by coming here. 05:19:16 Oh, sorry. 05:19:31 The annual fee here is around 200 Euros. 05:19:42 That's very inexpensive. 05:20:05 yes, we believe that university education should be available to everyone. 05:20:10 I spend around 5 thousand euros per year here 05:20:20 Wow. 05:20:35 A euro is about .7USD, right? 05:20:48 The other way around 05:21:01 Oh, right 05:21:02 1 USD is about 0.7 EUR 05:21:25 Yes, so it's actually closer to 8400 euros 05:21:32 I just guestimated before. 05:21:41 about 12k per year 05:21:49 OK. 05:21:52 That is expensive. 05:22:01 You will get a lot of airline tickets for that. 05:22:11 What about housing? 05:22:13 -!- vert2 [~vert2@newshell1.bshellz.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:22:33 dnice: A dorm room is around 150 Eur / month as I recall. 05:22:37 not that I care, but I don't understand how going from an exchange rate of 1:.7 to .7:1 increases the total in euros. 05:22:48 pkhuong: Me neither. 05:23:40 It's American arithmetic. 05:23:43 Basically, I misspoke, but I was doing the calculation correctly 05:23:49 if that makes sense 05:24:20 No, but it doesn't matter much now that we know the amount in USD. 05:25:25 There was a translation problem between the arithmatic in my brain and the words that I typed. 05:25:56 In other words, what I expressed in chat was entirely irrelevant and in fact opposite of the conversion that I was performing in my head 05:26:50 I estimated 1 USD to be about 0.5 EUR originally. 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phryk [~phryk@yggdrasil.phryk.net] has joined #lisp 07:06:33 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:06:33 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 07:12:53 dlind [~david@164.4.17.10] has joined #lisp 07:14:01 ohih0wru [~a@87.226.100.154] has joined #lisp 07:15:59 hello. after two years of thinking I've decided to spend fair amount of time to learn lisp. could you recommend a starting dialect and compiler? perhaps a good book as well, I am an experienced programmer so I don't need tutorials from scratch. Thanks in advance. 07:16:40 ohih0wru: "practical common lisp" still is the best book that you can read. 07:17:11 ohih0wru: if you are more into learning some of the wow-aspects, read "on lisp" or "the art of the metaobject protocol". 07:17:33 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 07:18:02 ohih0wru: As for a compiler, you might want http://www.cliki.net/Common%20Lisp%20implementation 07:18:48 -!- EyesIsMine [~eyes@unaffiliated/eyesismine] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:19:05 ohih0wru: with respect to the implementation, i think it really boils down to ccl or sbcl with slime, if you are running linux 07:19:21 yes, linux/macos 07:19:21 ohih0wru: cliki.net has a lot of information, eg. http://www.cliki.net/Favorite%20Lisp%20books 07:19:45 not wow. but i need sources to help me switch my thinking from structured to functional 07:20:01 ohih0wru: in case you're a vim fan, take a look at slimv; for emacs there's slime. 07:20:05 i understand how it works but i need solid practices for common tasks. 07:20:06 ohih0wru: common lisp is not a functional programming language. 07:20:14 i prefer emacs for the past three years 07:20:19 luckily it's lisp as well 07:20:35 ohih0wru: i'd recommend using ccl as compiler then. 07:20:46 ohih0wru: it is well-supported both on linux and macos. 07:21:05 ohih0wru: lisp incorporates other paradigms as well. functional is one of those that are nice to work in (but you can easily mix it with oo style programming) 07:21:22 do you know books that help shift and explore for structured programmers to dive into functional approach? 07:21:50 ohih0wru: you'll get the hang of that by wrapping your head around lisp, i think 07:21:52 ohih0wru: do you want to learn lisp or functional programming? 07:22:25 cnl [~cnl@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 07:22:25 structured and functional are hardly exclusive, but maybe sicp? Not that that's CL. 07:22:27 for example an explanation on how to do same things without looking for solutions through state changes and side effects and only do it by function application? 07:22:33 ohih0wru: SICP 07:22:40 it's scheme based? 07:22:47 yes. 07:23:09 is difference big between common lisp and scheme? 07:23:13 ohih0wru: yes. 07:23:23 from what i've read it seems that scheme is more academic rather than practical 07:23:30 ohih0wru: first you need to decide whether you want to learn lisp or functional programming 07:23:48 i want to learn lisp because it is not solely functional 07:24:09 ohih0wru: then read pcl, then on lisp 07:24:36 xan_ [~xan@vpn13.hotsplots.net] has joined #lisp 07:24:36 i want to know what people mean by saying that it does not restrict thinking and thinking of solution to what you are allowed to do 07:24:52 (incf H4ns) 07:24:53 ohih0wru: sicp is not based on scheme. 07:24:59 ohih0wru: sicp is based on good ideas. 07:25:12 ohih0wru: sicp uses scheme for it's examples and exercises. 07:25:27 *H4ns* admits that he did not like SICP at all. 07:25:29 ohih0wru: but they are translated into various other languages. 07:25:38 ohih0wru: the pcl is available from http://gigamonkeys.com/book/ 07:25:52 ohih0wru: see for example: http://www.codepoetics.com/wiki/index.php?title=Topics:SICP_in_other_languages and http://eli.thegreenplace.net/category/programming/lisp/sicp/ 07:26:34 In conclusion, sicp is highly recommended to all programmers! 07:26:41 regardless of sicp, if he wants to learn common lisp and knows imperative languages, then PCL seems to be the way to go. No? 07:26:42 alright, so summing up it is, start with sicp, pcl for reading. emacs (my preference, any better?) and sbcl? 07:26:56 pjb, yes I have already found SICP in russian 07:27:05 sicp doesn't teach anything about Common Lisp. It teaches about programming. 07:27:06 ohih0wru: emacs + sbcl is best (srsly) 07:27:15 I prefer ccl. 07:27:17 i think that ccl is better on macs. 07:27:18 pjb, yes, that is what i want 07:27:24 (and on linux, too) 07:27:32 alright, then ccl 07:27:38 pjb: ccl is very nice, but sbcl has slightly better response in this channel, so it's better for a newcomer 07:27:55 *madnificent* doesn't know about the mac 07:28:30 clisp is very easy to install, on the other hand. :) 07:28:40 The sources of ccl are more accessible to newcomers (less sophisticated). Therefore I think ccl is a better implementation for study and exploration. 07:28:40 thanks. good that it's not too much for a start, so i can concentrate on learning these several subjects 07:28:43 So it can be useful for dangling toes, etc. 07:28:58 ohih0wru: all references are given on http://cliki.net 07:29:32 aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:29:35 Zhivago: i've always had to do more effort to get clisp up and running, than to get sbcl up and running on supported machines 07:29:46 H4ns, Bike, flip214, madnificent, pjb, Zhivago: thank you all for your response. after I'll decide my learning steps, thanks. 07:30:15 ohih0wru: for your emacs setup: quicklisp has a way of writing out the needed configuration for emacs+slime (which makes emacs talk to lisp) 07:30:25 ohih0wru: good luck! 07:30:34 madnificent, I've had problems with some i cannot remember compiler with slime 07:30:44 it hung up and required restart on errors 07:30:57 ohih0wru: oh yeah, you should use quicklisp from the start. 07:31:10 ohih0wru: since quicklisp, i know nothing but that quicklisp will get you started :) 07:31:18 ohih0wru: install ccl and emacs by hand, then use quicklisp to install slime and any libraries that you want to try. 07:32:27 ^ sounds like a lot of work, but it's a breeze 07:33:07 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-6-95.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:33:15 EyesIsMine [~eyes@unaffiliated/eyesismine] has joined #lisp 07:33:16 fbass [~fbass@71-222-133-20.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 07:33:22 -!- fbass [~fbass@71-222-133-20.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:36:34 thanks, i assume it'll take a month or so to get a grasp but in MY mind it feels rewarding 07:36:52 fbass [~fbass@71-222-133-20.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 07:36:53 i'll see how it's really is 07:37:02 -!- fbass [~fbass@71-222-133-20.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:37:24 only pity that i don't see any job offers looking for lisp programmers, at least in my country 07:37:36 ohih0wru: where do you live? 07:37:36 No, there are none. 07:37:51 Furthermore, if you really like lisp, you won't be able to program anything else anymore. 07:38:02 So that's the surest way down to become a bum. 07:38:17 Unless you start up your own company to develop lisp software. 07:38:44 pjb, I have plans for creating my own mechanisms 07:38:48 madnificent, Latvia 07:39:08 your 'own mechanisms'? 07:39:14 *madnificent* doesn't know anything in Latvia :) 07:39:18 in any case once I begin understanding how it works I could replicate the or get near in other languages 07:39:27 ohih0wru: well, before you get too delighted, read http://www.winestockwebdesign.com/Essays/Lisp_Curse.html 07:39:30 ohih0wru: Lisp is used in finances. See for example http://ravenpack.com 07:39:35 madnificent, well yes, just for fun 07:40:00 ohih0wru: i don't understand the sentence. probably just me 07:41:27 madnificent, well, for things that I want to do or have power to use programming language at will in my projects I could (as I've imagined for some time) 07:41:55 *my projects I could use lisp 07:42:03 ah ok :) 07:42:04 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:42:43 ohih0wru: have a look at: http://www.informatimago.com/articles/life-saver.html in particular InteLib. The conclusion is that yes, you can apply Greenspun's Tenth Law, but no, that's not something you can do (without a lot of suffering on your part, and rejection on the part of your cow orkers). 07:42:47 I am frustrated with Java and PHP, I want to do C and some functional language 07:43:24 ohih0wru: common lisp is not a functional language. 07:43:24 ohih0wru: Better: CL and Haskell. C has too little applications (do you really want to program yet another unix kernel?) 07:43:50 pjb, of course I won't do it in a day-time job especially with PHP programmers, I have a few ideas for small startups that I want to unpack. 07:43:57 pjb: he might want to write linux drivers. 07:43:59 CL is procedural. :) 07:44:13 axeljohnsson [~user@81-232-133-157-no22.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 07:44:24 -!- axeljohnsson [~user@81-232-133-157-no22.tbcn.telia.com] has left #lisp 07:44:25 As always Zhivago says anything. 07:44:26 probably I put it wrong, but functional I wanted to say once again Lisp, because it seems to support several approaches 07:44:34 CL is multi-paradigm. 07:44:36 -!- randal [~randal@219.133.62.89] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:44:53 I just want a very powerful tool which won't force me to consider possibilities and choose tools. 07:44:59 And they all fit into 'procedural', since it doesn't have functions. 07:45:32 I prefer mastering one, good and able tool instead of specializing in an array of smaller, targeted solutions 07:45:35 Surprisingly, one of the more useful CL ideas for export seems to be pathnames. 07:46:05 I consider C as a backup plan when I need performance and I don't get performance. 07:46:33 ohih0wru: http://cliki.net/Performance 07:46:33 for small but heavy operations 07:46:46 I don't know Assembly and I doubt I want to know it at all. 07:47:24 ohih0wru: actually, learning assembler, and writing a program in it is probably a better learning experience than learning C. 07:48:05 pjb, assembler has too many instruction sets and cpu specifications as I see 07:48:10 ohih0wru: i agree with pjb - if you want performance, all you need is cl and assembly knowledge so that you can read disassemblies and direct the optimizer properly. 07:49:24 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 07:49:43 ohih0wru: with respect to architectures: you basically need two today, x86 and ARM 07:50:45 ohih0wru: learning assembler also has the advantage that it teaches you something about real machines, which is quite different from the naive machine model that c has. 07:50:58 -!- MimiEA [~Mimi@66-188-168-128.dhcp.stcd.mn.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:53:27 -!- xan_ [~xan@vpn13.hotsplots.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:55:20 ohih0wru: Learn Lisp. Later you can look at ECL -- it has the advantage that it uses the host compiler to generate executables, and you can give arbitrary object files to link in, too ... so if you want you can write the most important things in C, assembler, or similar languages, too ... 07:55:54 but generally H4ns+1 ... "so that you can read disassemblies and direct the optimizer" 07:56:13 flip214: you seem to say that one can't link to other languages with other implementations, which is clearly not the case. 07:56:48 H4ns: no, sorry, I didn't mean that. Of course you're right, you can load shared objects in nearly every Lisp implementation ... 07:57:00 but ECL can use inline-C ;) 07:57:43 flip214: other implementations can use inline assembly, and given cl's macros, that is a very powerful thing. i mean, what's the point of doing inline-c anyway? 07:58:01 flip214: performance? well, get a better compiler, learn how to declare your types properly. 07:58:02 H4ns: it's more portable than inline assembler? 07:58:14 mperillo [~manlio@151.75.71.52] has joined #lisp 07:58:16 flip214: ecl is portable. yeah right. 07:58:29 and the "better compiler" is something I'm hoping for since about 25 years ... 07:58:46 well, ecl runs on the iPad, too (IIRC what was said here a few days ago) 07:59:14 "it runs on the ipad" as in "i spent all my free time getting it to run, here is my 'hello world'" 07:59:15 well clearly more portable than sbcl so far 07:59:16 H4ns: never mind ... I just wanted to mention that there are other implementation than CCL, SBCL, LispWorks, etc 07:59:37 flip214: ok. never mind :) 07:59:41 also, do you know of lisp programs with open sources for examination? 07:59:52 as an additional material for learning 07:59:57 ohih0wru: use quicklisp, then you'll get lots of sources ;) 08:02:09 ohih0wru: also check out cliki.net and common-lisp.net sites 08:04:20 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 08:06:37 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 08:10:06 tsanhwa [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has joined #lisp 08:10:20 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-38-156-87.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:19:01 qinglingquan [~user@111.194.46.172] has joined #lisp 08:22:49 -!- qinglingquan [~user@111.194.46.172] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:22:55 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:23:26 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-166-45.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:25:36 tarmil [~user@109.74.51.29] has joined #lisp 08:25:45 cfy [~cfy@125.123.49.244] has joined #lisp 08:25:45 -!- cfy [~cfy@125.123.49.244] has quit [Changing host] 08:25:45 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 08:27:02 installed quicklisp, hey it's a nice thing. one of problems for me was understanding how to work with packages and was there a debian-like package manager, thanks :) 08:37:56 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-132-188-166.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:37:56 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-132-188-166.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 08:37:56 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:38:16 c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-ithrxcgikdnyamnn] has joined #lisp 08:40:54 trigen_ [c1aca602@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.172.166.2] has joined #lisp 08:43:02 mstevens [~mstevens@ceres.etla.org] has joined #lisp 08:43:02 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@ceres.etla.org] has quit [Changing host] 08:43:02 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 08:43:03 gonzojive [~gonzojive@74.125.57.33] has joined #lisp 08:43:15 jsoftw [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 08:43:37 -!- gonzojive [~gonzojive@74.125.57.33] has quit [Client Quit] 08:46:42 -!- ASau [~user@95-28-79-252.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: off] 08:47:02 -!- trigen_ [c1aca602@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.172.166.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:47:12 nonduality [d41f5a2d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.31.90.45] has joined #lisp 08:51:05 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-127-009.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:54:21 -!- scrimohsin [~asshole@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:07:26 jeekl [~crz@li272-11.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 09:07:26 -!- jeekl [~crz@li272-11.members.linode.com] has quit [Changing host] 09:07:26 jeekl [~crz@unaffiliated/jeekl] has joined #lisp 09:09:57 xan_ [~xan@client195-220.wlan.hu-berlin.de] has joined #lisp 09:13:08 fbass [~fbass@71-222-133-20.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 09:13:13 -!- fbass [~fbass@71-222-133-20.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:15:29 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:15:58 ehu [~ehuels@109.32.245.105] has joined #lisp 09:16:07 -!- xan_ [~xan@client195-220.wlan.hu-berlin.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:16:34 is there a cl-net admin around? would be nice to upgrade darcs... http://wiki.darcs.net/Binaries 09:17:26 cfy [~cfy@125.123.49.244] has joined #lisp 09:17:26 -!- cfy [~cfy@125.123.49.244] has quit [Changing host] 09:17:26 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 09:20:03 attila_lendvai: best send email to admin@common-lisp.net 09:21:06 H4ns: I don't want to bug people that much, just thought that if someone has time... but I'll write up a mail that a binary I've dl'd works fine on cl-net as a FYI 09:21:12 am0c [~am0c@218.51.116.50] has joined #lisp 09:21:29 attila_lendvai: just send the email, someone will pick it up and do it. 09:22:52 xan_ [~xan@client195-220.wlan.hu-berlin.de] has joined #lisp 09:26:53 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:28:46 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:36:03 ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 09:39:43 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.119.222] has joined #lisp 09:40:16 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 09:41:21 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.119.222] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:42:15 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.32.245.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:43:50 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.10.170] has joined #lisp 09:46:43 fourier` [~user@h-139-196.a176.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 09:50:53 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:51:26 republican_devil [~g@pool-71-189-7-58.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:53:24 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:54:54 -!- republican_devil [~g@pool-71-189-7-58.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:58:41 -!- xxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.14.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:59:06 zfx [~zfx@host86-166-170-251.range86-166.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:59:06 -!- zfx [~zfx@host86-166-170-251.range86-166.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 09:59:06 zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 09:59:41 -!- hussaibi [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:59:52 -!- hussaibi_ [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:02:47 lony [~lony@hoas-fe3ddd00-245.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 10:03:41 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-213-064.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:04:54 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:05:41 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 10:08:58 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-131-129.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:11:35 hussaibi [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has joined #lisp 10:11:36 hussaibi_ [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has joined #lisp 10:12:17 hussaibi__ [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has joined #lisp 10:15:53 -!- hussaibi [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:16:04 -!- hussaibi_ [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:17:47 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 10:18:09 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 10:18:13 cnl_ [~cnl@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 10:18:21 -!- hussaibi__ [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:18:21 -!- cnl_ [~cnl@78.31.74.25] has quit [Client Quit] 10:22:48 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-131-129.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:23:00 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-131-129.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:25:01 ngz [~user@209.141.80.79.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 10:26:07 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 10:28:43 francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has joined #lisp 10:29:58 Hi, in loop how could I use a binding to a first variable like the following: (loop for line = (read-line str nil) and val = (tokenize line :delimiters #\tab) where line is used first and the later? 10:31:02 francogrex: IIRC "for ... and" means that they're evaluated in parallel, you might need for line = ... for val = ... 10:31:38 flip214: thanks you're right 10:32:23 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:33:02 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:33:27 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 10:34:51 corni [~corni@schleptop.visitor.camp.ccc.de] has joined #lisp 10:34:51 -!- corni [~corni@schleptop.visitor.camp.ccc.de] has quit [Changing host] 10:34:51 corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has joined #lisp 10:36:12 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:36:30 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has joined #lisp 10:37:17 antoszka: from clhs 3.1.1. Introduction to Environments, it seems that it's an error to have lexical bindings in the same environment and namespace for the same symbol/function name 10:37:23 i.e. (lambda (a a) ...), (let (a a) ...), etc. (also with flet and labels) is an error 10:37:25 i'm not sure about let*, prog*, do*, etc*. 10:38:28 acelent: Thx. Which means that both lw and clisp might be offending the spec here. 10:38:41 bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:38:44 clhs 6.1.1.7 Destructuring 10:39:13 clhs 3.1.1 10:39:13 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_aa.htm 10:39:16 also imposes that there cannot be duplicate names, but it's loop's own semantincs, i can't tell if they're related 10:40:12 semantics* 10:40:33 but can have only one associated binding per namespace. 10:40:53 antoszka: however, there's really nothing that tells that an implementation must signal an error when such thing happens 10:41:19 Yeah. Esp. that the first binding is just overwritten, so it's a slightly different situation. 10:41:30 antoszka: as such, you must not rely on (lambda (a a)) or (let (a a)) erroring 10:41:54 No, I certainly wouldn't. 10:43:03 antoszka: i believe the part you quoted is the one that allows an implementation to error on repeated binding names 10:43:25 antoszka: in the case of let, since bindings are estabilished in parallel, what is overwriting a binding? 10:43:30 cfy [~cfy@125.123.49.244] has joined #lisp 10:43:30 -!- cfy [~cfy@125.123.49.244] has quit [Changing host] 10:43:30 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 10:44:13 acelent: Right, haven't thought of that case. In lambda lists the order is set explicitely from left to right, isn't it? 10:44:23 the "overwritten" binding is invisible to the forms within the block, right? 10:45:02 antoszka: it depends. optional and key arguments are, but you cannot assume anything about required arguments 10:45:10 OK. 10:45:39 antoszka: optional and key arguments can have a default form that references other args, iirc 10:47:03 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 10:47:08 flip214: clhs only speaks of shadowing, e.g. (let (a) (let (a))), but i think you're right for an implementation that allows (let (a a)) 10:53:59 hmm Iem having a strange issu in (loop .... while... do... it is executing the first clause is executing one more time before the while test terminates it... well it's not strange it is expected I think, but it's giving me problems 10:54:57 rme [~rme@50.43.138.159] has joined #lisp 10:55:15 francogrex: paste? 10:55:22 ok 10:55:55 drl [~lat@110.139.230.255] has joined #lisp 10:55:57 H4ns` [~user@pD4B9EAEA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:56:06 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-owvxvlohegbirapc] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:56:06 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 10:56:17 mrSpec [~Spec@pool-151-204-255-122.bstnma.btas.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:56:17 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@pool-151-204-255-122.bstnma.btas.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 10:56:17 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 10:56:20 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-58-167.lns3.dea.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:56:57 http://paste.lisp.org/display/123899 10:57:23 (subseq (cadr val) 6) 10:58:00 it is nil and therefor an error, it is expected certainly because the while test comes afterwards to stop the looping 10:58:18 francogrex: my advice: don't use loop 10:59:04 kind of a very radical advice 10:59:05 francogrex: your code looks wrong on the first sight because - as you notice - the assignments are going on before the loop termination check. 10:59:17 yes that I know 10:59:24 francogrex: why don't you move the (while line) one line up, before the tokenize? 10:59:36 and H4ns`+1, use iterate when possible 10:59:41 <_3b> you can't move the while line up 10:59:41 francogrex: you may as well bind val and value in a let around (print ...) 10:59:44 flip214: would that be legal LOOP then? :) 10:59:48 -!- H4ns [~user@p4FFC9B0D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:59:58 flip214: no it wouldn't. you see, loop sucks. 11:00:05 I certainly used it like this before 11:00:14 <_3b> use for val = (if line (...)) 11:00:21 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-edusjkbmwaixdfln] has joined #lisp 11:00:21 <_3b> flip214: not portably, try on clisp 11:00:30 acelent: I would avoid let... _3b yes I think that's the best 11:00:35 <_3b> (sbcl is unusually permissive when it comes to loop syntax :/ ) 11:00:37 _3b: well, tested on sbcl ... 11:00:45 so, summary: use iterate ;) 11:00:51 ah, wonderful! start with loop in the first place, then mess around its deficiencies. 11:00:53 francogrex: why avoid let? 11:01:13 ehu` [~ehuels@109.33.184.0] has joined #lisp 11:01:17 (or rather, let*) 11:01:22 acelent: because it looks awful. 11:01:35 -!- H4ns` is now known as H4ns 11:01:36 well, loop looks awful, too ;) 11:01:42 acelent: let is great, but it complicates the program in the loop 11:01:55 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.10.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:02:02 yes makes it look awful indeed 11:02:03 it's a matter of taste, then 11:02:06 francogrex: there is no free lunch. 11:02:08 ympbyc1 [~ympbyc@219-89-18-125.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 11:02:53 but it's solved with the suggestion of _3b 11:03:21 francogrex: congratulations, now you've added extra conditionals just to work around loop. 11:03:30 -!- xan_ [~xan@client195-220.wlan.hu-berlin.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:03:43 francogrex: in a code review, i'd reject that and ask the hacker to restructure the code. 11:03:51 -!- tsanhwa [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:05:43 H4ns: I also use iterate, I have no problem using it I acknowledge its advantages 11:06:25 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-131-129.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 11:07:21 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.255] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:09:32 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-131-129.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:09:53 Is lisppaste alive? 11:10:09 -!- ehu` [~ehuels@109.33.184.0] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:10:51 DGASAU: Seems so 11:11:11 X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 11:11:18 I don't see the robot-announcer here. 11:11:53 You might have to announce yourself 11:12:34 -!- lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 11:14:30 -!- sacho [~sacho@90.154.219.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:16:09 -!- jsoftw [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:17:40 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 11:18:27 lnostdal [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 11:19:50 Joreji [~thomas@83-096.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:23:32 Vivitron [~user@pool-71-174-61-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:24:03 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-127-009.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:25:53 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-102-191.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:31:40 -!- johanbev [~johanbev@138.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 11:34:48 -!- corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:36:32 francogrex: for val = (tokenize line :delimiters #\tab)  in this line, where does the tokenize come from? 11:39:40 tsanhwa [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has joined #lisp 11:41:19 ehu [~ehuels@109.32.128.190] has joined #lisp 11:46:51 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 11:47:45 corni [~corni@81.162.150.189] has joined #lisp 11:47:45 -!- corni [~corni@81.162.150.189] has quit [Changing host] 11:47:45 corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has joined #lisp 11:48:03 :q 11:48:06 -!- francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:50:34 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.32.128.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:50:58 (eq 'x (caar '(('x)))) 11:51:19 Why isn't this true? 11:51:33 cadar? 11:51:37 markskilbeck: because your x in the list is double qouted 11:53:25 Not following you, H4ns. (car '(('x))) is 'x, and 'x = 'x, so? 11:53:38 markskilbeck: no, try (caar '((x))) 11:53:41 Forgive my ignorace o:) 11:54:17 markskilbeck: (eq 'x 'x) => NIL because (eq (quote x) (quote x)) => NIL 11:54:43 flip214: No. 11:54:53 EQ is a function and its arguments are evaluated. 11:55:09 antoszka: http://www.foldr.org/~michaelw/lisp/tokenizer.lisp 11:55:19 Symbols with the same name interned in the same package are EQ. 11:55:25 jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-133.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:55:42 bandu [kvirc@pool-71-164-233-54.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:55:42 -!- bandu [kvirc@pool-71-164-233-54.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 11:55:42 bandu [kvirc@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 11:56:01 H4ns: Thx. 11:56:09 yeah, ok ... I meant (eq ''x ''x) => NIL and (eq (quote 'x) (quote 'x)) => NIL 11:56:14 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@60-234-133-173.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 11:56:21 analogous to the discussion above 11:56:32 -!- nicdev_ [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: nicdev_] 11:56:56 flip214: not quite. he is checking whether the symbol X is eq to the list (QUOTE X). 11:57:29 that's an additional problem ;) 11:57:32 markskilbeck: are you properly confused yet? 11:57:40 flip214: That is the primary problem... 11:57:58 I'll get back to you in a moment - gotta relocate. :D 11:58:25 well, (equal ''x (caar '(('x)))) => T 11:59:28 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-131-129.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 11:59:47 depy [~depy@router.agenda.si] has joined #lisp 12:00:58 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.138.159] has quit [Quit: rme] 12:01:57 Hmm, under what circumstance is CXML's notice about UTF-16 and CHARACTER RUNES useful? 12:02:19 Is there a problem that I might encounter that might otherwise go undetected or unnoticed? 12:02:52 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-abixpntosaihbxzy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:03:50 Sakako [~sakako@115-64-228-146.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 12:04:11 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:04:36 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:04:46 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.162.164] has joined #lisp 12:06:03 Yuuhi [benni@p5483B90E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:06:25 -!- ympbyc1 [~ympbyc@219-89-18-125.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:09:06 -!- sebyte [~sebyte@chimera.gnukahvesi.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:10:22 -!- corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:14:34 Younder [~john@238.202.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 12:14:53 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 12:15:01 Okay - sorry about that/ 12:15:06 Where were we. 12:15:28 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-edusjkbmwaixdfln] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:15:32 markskilbeck: please review the logs. 12:16:13 ehu [~ehuels@109.34.242.198] has joined #lisp 12:16:26 what does that f always stand for in setf, incf, decf, ...? 12:16:49 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:16:58 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-6-95.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:17:23 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 12:17:38 H4ns: yes - properly. 12:17:39 ;) 12:19:45 -!- Elench is now known as zet` 12:20:10 -!- zet` is now known as Elen 12:20:16 -!- Elen is now known as iZet 12:20:50 neag field, It markes that is is non-functional 12:21:08 Lone_Wanderer [~Dan@209-6-38-124.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 12:22:33 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:23:09 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-69.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:23:46 -!- tsanhwa [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:23:57 Younder: ah, thanks. i guess there is no reference about all macros? also the q in setq etc 12:25:34 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 12:25:52 naeg, setq is short for (set (quote variable) data) 12:26:19 naeg, though set is hardly ever used any more 12:26:37 you mean setq, right? as i just read in pcl 12:27:05 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 12:27:39 naeg: SET is used even less than SETQ. 12:27:41 naeg, right, the reasons are mostly historical. setq is much older. 12:29:08 naeg, realize that setf can have a first argument that is a reference to part of a data structure. Particularly in CLOS 12:29:52 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.34.242.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:30:06 naeg, setf is a macro that expands to a number of functions including setf 12:30:18 ehu [~ehuels@109.33.125.113] has joined #lisp 12:31:09 you confuse me :s 12:31:28 i feel unsure about correcting you again, but did you mean "... including setq"? 12:31:47 naeg, yes 12:32:01 -!- zmyrgel [~user@193.64.112.22] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:32:26 lisp is great :) happy i decided to buy pcl and not learn haskell (for now) 12:33:03 naeg, haskell is great too 12:33:22 Younder: Your errors make it pretty hard to understand what you're trying to say. 12:33:31 no doubt about that, i started reading learn you a haskell 12:33:42 i like the idea of lazy evaluation 12:33:45 Xach, perhaps you can help me then. 12:34:29 Xach, I forget the exact functions setf expands to. 12:35:09 Younder: I don't know why you make so many errors. Are you writing too fast? Slow down and check things first? 12:35:42 I mean here typos like "setf expands into setf", not factual or reasoning errors 12:35:49 Lazy evaluation is brillian 12:35:56 -!- The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip72-192-56-169.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 12:35:58 t 12:36:02 Lazy evaluations is streams. 12:36:06 You should look up Liskell 12:36:06 <3 12:36:15 naeg: You can have lazy evaluation in Lisp, too. 12:36:41 let me guess antoszka, with Sakako's beloved liskell? 12:36:57 -!- iZet is now known as Elench 12:37:14 naeg: I think I had clazy in mind, but I came across a few libraries/projects for lazy eval. 12:37:33 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.33.125.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:38:36 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 12:41:03 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.194] has joined #lisp 12:41:21 drl [~lat@110.139.230.255] has joined #lisp 12:42:20 sds [186730cd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.103.48.205] has joined #lisp 12:42:46 -!- sds is now known as Guest41684 12:44:45 replore [~replore@ntkngw133234.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:45:08 -!- ohih0wru [~a@87.226.100.154] has quit [Quit:     (xchat 2.4.5  )] 12:45:30 hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 12:46:32 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-lasslrpyncuplktb] has joined #lisp 12:54:44 -!- zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has quit [Quit: Be back later] 12:54:56 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.255] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:56:09 tsanhwa [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has joined #lisp 12:57:25 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Quit: upgrades] 12:58:12 urandom__ [~user@p548A507F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:29 sebyte [~sebyte@chimera.gnukahvesi.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:45 _mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 12:58:57 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:00:06 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-58-167.lns3.dea.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:01:48 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 13:02:20 -!- sebyte [~sebyte@chimera.gnukahvesi.net] has left #lisp 13:02:31 sebyte [~sebyte@chimera.gnukahvesi.net] has joined #lisp 13:02:42 -!- sebyte [~sebyte@chimera.gnukahvesi.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:04:11 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 13:07:05 sebyte [~sebyte@chimera.gnukahvesi.net] has joined #lisp 13:07:12 drl [~lat@110.139.230.255] has joined #lisp 13:07:29 sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 13:10:32 upwardindex [~upwardind@modemcable016.209-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 13:11:13 Anyone knows of a mirror for weblocks documentation? (the web site has been 503 for days...) 13:16:12 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.255] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:16:42 leyyer_su [~user@222.212.73.241] has joined #lisp 13:18:21 -!- Sakako [~sakako@115-64-228-146.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:18:35 doc_who [~doc_who@pool-108-28-6-47.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:18:43 markskil1eck [~mark@host-92-12-21-194.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:58 upwardindex: if you're really desperate, archive.org can help: http://web.archive.org/web/20090208085916/http://weblocks.viridian-project.de/ 13:20:05 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:22:57 H4ns: Thanks! Didn't think of archive.org. A bit outdated but allowed me to find the link for the up to date autogenerated documentation. 13:24:26 -!- tsanhwa [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:27:36 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:29:05 drl [~lat@110.139.230.255] has joined #lisp 13:30:04 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:33:49 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:33:59 *sykopomp* wonders what's up with the weblocks site. 13:34:31 I noticed it was down a couple of weeks ago. Has it actually stayed that way? 13:43:12 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:43:28 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:44:02 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 13:44:32 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:46:02 mrSpec [~Spec@c-66-31-28-194.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:02 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@c-66-31-28-194.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:46:02 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 13:48:53 pdo [~pdo@217.33.254.141] has joined #lisp 13:49:13 lnostdal [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 13:49:45 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-175-29.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 13:50:08 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:57:18 -!- nonduality [d41f5a2d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.31.90.45] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:02:35 pjb: enn: AFAIK, so far quicklisp always install the last version it has, and cannot install several versions. 14:02:41 pjb: that's wrong - you can go back to older versions. 14:02:48 FYI 14:03:02 corni [~corni@flower-49-92.visitor.camp.ccc.de] has joined #lisp 14:03:02 -!- corni [~corni@flower-49-92.visitor.camp.ccc.de] has quit [Changing host] 14:03:02 corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has joined #lisp 14:05:09 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:09:28 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-213-056.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 14:13:15 -!- taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:13:33 sellout [~Adium@83-131-94-101.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 14:14:47 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-184-202.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:16:45 wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-74-66-9-78.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:17:46 rlb3 [~user@2620:0:28a0:2004:72cd:60ff:fea8:e7de] has joined #lisp 14:21:48 -!- ahriman` [~ahriman@109.123.146.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:22:14 -!- ngz [~user@209.141.80.79.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:24:03 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 14:25:30 milanj [~milanj_@109-93-103-241.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 14:26:26 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:26:54 tsanhwa [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has joined #lisp 14:28:33 -!- upwardindex [~upwardind@modemcable016.209-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: upwardindex] 14:28:38 genieliu [~genieliu@59.78.62.120] has joined #lisp 14:29:29 If any CAPI wizards are around: I'm having an issue with interfaces. I want to share data between components of an interface without having to refer to a specific instance of one. Any ideas? 14:30:01 -!- genieliu [~genieliu@59.78.62.120] has quit [Client Quit] 14:30:14 Qworkescence: I haven't see a lot of CAPI talk here, but the lispworks list is usually pretty helpful in that regard. 14:31:57 -!- corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:32:32 -!- markskil1eck [~mark@host-92-12-21-194.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:33:38 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:34:00 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 14:41:33 Xach: good news! :) 14:41:43 https://github.com/vii/teepeedee2/commit/1822f159c10686335468168fcef95873cd969dda 14:41:57 zfx [~zfx@host109-156-20-14.range109-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:41:57 -!- zfx [~zfx@host109-156-20-14.range109-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 14:41:57 zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 14:42:25 I bet it'll build now. :) 14:42:34 o frabjous day! 14:42:40 ahriman [~ahriman@109.123.146.165] has joined #lisp 14:43:04 rme [~rme@50.43.136.147] has joined #lisp 14:43:12 *Xach* update-and-cranks 14:43:36 corni [~corni@schleptop.visitor.camp.ccc.de] has joined #lisp 14:43:36 -!- corni [~corni@schleptop.visitor.camp.ccc.de] has quit [Changing host] 14:43:36 corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has joined #lisp 14:45:04 centipedefarmer [~centipede@97-125-186-97.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:45:19 Wins all around! Thanks sykopomp! 14:46:09 Xach: thank john for pulling them in! :) 14:46:37 It only took 7 months 14:46:40 *Xach* grumbles 14:47:35 wow. 14:51:18 herr fremlin didn't want to update the dependency list in tpd2? 14:52:41 No, there was a minor incompatibility. 14:54:16 -!- tsanhwa [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:55:40 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 14:56:22 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-lasslrpyncuplktb] has left #lisp 14:56:47 realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:35 hey, is there a way I can check the validity of a lib with asdf ? it seems that cl-glfw has a few errors, i tells me nothing with asdf:load-system, and asdf:compile-system or asdf:test-system only returns T (even with :verbose T) 14:58:35 bummer. 14:58:35 The_third_man: What suggests to you that there are are errors? 14:59:34 -!- aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:00:09 the fact that cl-glfw is unable to do the bindings with opengl (the gl: part), and I can't use the examples, a friend of mine who used told me that there was a problem with a cffi function 15:00:13 +it 15:00:45 so, instead of reading all the file, maybe recompiling it would tell me if there's something wrong 15:01:14 lnostdal [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 15:01:25 (the lazy way would be to put a comment in all the .asd files to force recompilation, but I think there is an easier way) 15:01:28 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:02:28 hi, anyone noticing quite severe memory leaks using emacs-snapshot? ( http://emacs.naquadah.org/ .. i'm using the one from the ubuntu natty repo) 15:04:18 The_third_man: does (ql:quickload "cl-glfw-opengl-version_1_0") work? 15:04:27 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.255] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:04:49 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-166-45.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:04:56 -!- leyyer_su [~user@222.212.73.241] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:05:11 Xach : yes 15:05:25 no errors 15:05:28 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:05:31 ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has joined #lisp 15:05:52 The_third_man: Maybe the examples are broken. 15:06:34 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@99-120-69-226.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:06:58 ace4016 [~ace4016@99-120-69-226.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:27 I just got the color selector to run with some tweaking. 15:07:34 Well, sort of. 15:08:08 jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.56] has joined #lisp 15:08:36 -!- am0c [~am0c@218.51.116.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:08:55 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.187.110] has joined #lisp 15:09:17 I'm trying to compile the version with opengl 4.1 15:09:44 I have an error there 15:11:34 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:11:43 -!- fourier` [~user@h-139-196.a176.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:11:53 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-74-66-9-78.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 15:12:56 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:59 hi 15:13:20 ahoy dto 15:13:26 hey sup Xach 15:13:32 how goes the Quicklisping 15:13:34 The_third_man: what do you hope to do with cl-glfw if you get it working ok? 15:13:36 dto: slow and steady 15:13:56 ehu` [~ehuels@109.34.46.190] has joined #lisp 15:13:58 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.187.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:14:03 Xach: i'm finally close to making a proper release, or at least something whose API is not likely to change drastically between now and "beta" 15:14:12 dto: Of what? 15:14:14 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 15:14:20 Xach: blocky. 15:14:35 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:14:45 Xach: i've rolled up everything i've worked on into this programming language. no longer any separate clon and xe2 package---it's one package of about 9kloc. 15:15:07 Xach, learn about opengl, and then try some demomaking 15:17:16 -!- sellout [~Adium@83-131-94-101.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:17:19 drl [~lat@110.139.230.255] has joined #lisp 15:17:31 The_third_man: The author of cl-glfw suggested to me that cl-opengl is better for straight opengl bindings. 15:17:36 -!- zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:17:37 cfy [~cfy@125.123.49.244] has joined #lisp 15:17:38 -!- cfy [~cfy@125.123.49.244] has quit [Changing host] 15:17:38 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 15:17:39 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-166-45.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:18:14 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-181-173.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Offline] 15:18:51 sellout [~Adium@83-131-94-101.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 15:19:38 zfx [~zfx@94.197.127.190.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:19:42 Xach, The_third_man i'm not sure about cl-glfw, as i haven't looked at it. however, i'm very happy with cl-opengl for my stuff 15:19:47 -!- zfx [~zfx@94.197.127.190.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Changing host] 15:19:48 zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 15:19:51 -!- sellout [~Adium@83-131-94-101.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Client Quit] 15:20:37 yeah, I think if I don't get it working soon, I'll use cl-opengl 15:22:19 Xach: i won't worry about doing a QL release for now, as the people I'm likely to ask to do testing of the alpha, are people who know how to use git. 15:23:02 Xach: but if there is enough interest, i'd be happy to tweak my repo with any quicklisp.conf or however it works. 15:23:11 -!- ehu` [~ehuels@109.34.46.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:24:45 You don't have to do anything but tell me when it's ready. 15:24:52 dto: congrats on your _big migration_ ... a herculean effort indeed. 15:25:39 dto! greetings. 15:25:39 Xach: oh great. okay 15:25:44 hi Fade :) 15:25:55 mon_key: hey are you watching my repo? 15:26:17 is that the migration you mean 15:26:34 yes. not as closely as i was at the beginning of year, but i did look at your repo changes last thursday if that is what yo mean :) 15:27:26 wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:34 i.e. i took the opportunity last thursday to look at the many changes you've made... not some specific change that was made on thursday 15:27:54 mon_key: oh no i just thought i recognized you as the name. i could have logged into github and peeked instead :) 15:27:57 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:27:59 but yeah, i've been quite busy 15:28:02 even since thurs 15:28:31 -!- djuber [~djuber@c-76-16-60-176.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:29:03 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 15:29:31 FWIW your whole migration effort has a certain intrigue about it that tickled my conspiratorial/paranoid nerve. 15:29:36 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:30:22 mon_key: i'm as confused as anyone else. i bought http://blocky.io about a month ago (the price of .io is way high because of all the YC startups using that name) 15:30:58 (i'm not a startup) 15:32:19 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:34:05 cfy [~cfy@125.123.49.244] has joined #lisp 15:34:05 -!- cfy [~cfy@125.123.49.244] has quit [Changing host] 15:34:05 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 15:34:09 well, i think you get the trophy for #lisp mystery of the year, dto. :) 15:34:38 Xach: if you like/wouldn't mind, please test the new --quit behaviour 15:36:31 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.136.147] has left #lisp 15:36:35 HG` [~HG@p5DC059A3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:24 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:42:08 dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 15:43:37 djuber [~djuber@c-76-16-60-176.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:24 yay, no documentation for cl-opengl :( 15:45:27 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:45:29 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 15:45:41 -!- corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:47:03 La0fer [~Laofers1@64.120.233.114] has joined #lisp 15:50:55 zfx- [~zfx@94.197.127.190.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:51:05 -!- zfx- [~zfx@94.197.127.190.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 15:51:58 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@97-125-186-97.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:52:04 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:52:44 The_third_man: there are some examples on http://3bb.cc 15:53:07 The_third_man: for the rest you can look up corresponding functions in the plain GL references online 15:53:23 thank you :) 15:53:23 The_third_man: also 15:53:29 *dto* points at |3b| 15:53:36 -!- zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:54:14 i recently went from zero opengl knowledge to having my engine be now completely opengl based for all rendering, via the resources i just enumerated. 15:54:15 :) 15:55:17 -!- sbalousek [~sbalouse@ip174-67-214-212.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:55:27 ehu [~ehuels@109.34.130.198] has joined #lisp 15:55:33 thanks a lot :) 15:56:20 sbalousek [~sbalouse@ip174-67-214-212.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:15 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-133.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:02:40 ehu` [~ehuels@109.35.65.230] has joined #lisp 16:04:08 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.34.130.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:05:22 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-172-233.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:07:34 corni [~corni@flower-182-153.visitor.camp.ccc.de] has joined #lisp 16:07:34 -!- corni [~corni@flower-182-153.visitor.camp.ccc.de] has quit [Changing host] 16:07:34 corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has joined #lisp 16:08:54 kslt1` [~karl.sier@netblock-208-127-156-174.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 16:09:25 -!- kslt1` [~karl.sier@netblock-208-127-156-174.dslextreme.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:13:19 kslt1 [~karl.sier@netblock-208-127-156-174.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 16:14:30 lichtblau: will do! 16:16:52 kpreid [~kpreid@216.239.45.17] has joined #lisp 16:17:11 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216.239.45.17] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:17:19 kpreid [~kpreid@216.239.45.17] has joined #lisp 16:19:24 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:19:32 -!- rlb3 [~user@2620:0:28a0:2004:72cd:60ff:fea8:e7de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:21:34 peearr [~aaron@159.153.4.51] has joined #lisp 16:22:58 -!- pdo [~pdo@217.33.254.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:23:06 lichtblau: super-wonderful 16:23:09 lichtblau: thanks! 16:23:32 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: "Object-oriented design" is an oxymoron] 16:26:17 -!- ehu` [~ehuels@109.35.65.230] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:27:52 -!- antifuchs [~foobar@2001:470:1f15:1c54::fade:1] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 16:28:18 antifuchs [~foobar@care.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:31 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.65.230] has joined #lisp 16:29:49 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17:26:50 kslt1 [~karl.sier@netblock-208-127-156-174.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 17:27:42 Inode [~inode@time.uk.chromedpork.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:43 argiopeweb [~elliot@155.31.50.175] has joined #lisp 17:28:16 housel [~user@217.115.14.5] has joined #lisp 17:30:00 -!- xan_ [~xan@vpn13.hotsplots.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:33:14 jdz [~jdz@host199-107-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:34:42 xan_ [~xan@vpn13.hotsplots.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:09 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:43:12 setmeaway [~setmeaway@183.106.96.61] has joined #lisp 17:43:42 -!- xan_ [~xan@vpn13.hotsplots.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:45:04 -!- kslt1 [~karl.sier@netblock-208-127-156-174.dslextreme.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:45:48 -!- ehu` [~ehuels@109.34.92.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:50:01 fbass [~fbass@71-222-133-20.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:07 -!- fbass [~fbass@71-222-133-20.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:51:36 -!- corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:52:06 fbass [~fbass@71-222-133-20.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:37 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:55:09 Xach: AFAIK< (setf a 42) can expand to (setq a 42), and (setq a 42) can expand to (setf (car *x*) 42), if a is a symbol-macro. Therefore setf can expand to setf. 17:57:18 -!- fbass [~fbass@71-222-133-20.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:58:19 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 18:05:54 pjb: A stopped clock is right twice a day. 18:06:04 corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has joined #lisp 18:07:49 -!- dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:11:55 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 18:12:44 -!- jamief [~user@harrison.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Terminated with extreme prejudice - dircproxy 1.0.5] 18:17:03 -!- betta_y_omega [~betta_y_o@90.166.231.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:19:21 betta_y_omega [~betta_y_o@90.166.231.220] has joined #lisp 18:20:25 jamief [~user@158.223.51.80] has joined #lisp 18:23:12 fbass [~fbass@71-222-133-20.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:21 gonzojive [~gonzojive@142-141.198-178.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 18:29:34 pnq [~nick@ACA26C6E.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 18:31:08 -!- Guest41684 [186730cd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.103.48.205] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:33:25 -!- _root_ [~Scalable@li252-14.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:37:47 -!- antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-1177894379.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:38:17 kslt1 [~karl.sier@netblock-208-127-156-174.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 18:40:55 -!- fbass [~fbass@71-222-133-20.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:42:10 -!- am0c [~am0c@218.51.116.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:47:33 -!- cnl [~cnl@78.31.74.25] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:47:41 cnl [~cnl@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 18:49:05 bleakgadfly [~cato@li146-221.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 18:50:59 _root_ [~Scalable@li252-14.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 18:53:07 does anybody have a lispy library for performing long running tasks with some means of monitoring them with a web frontend? a la https://github.com/blog/542-introducing-resque 18:53:19 Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 18:53:42 gonzojive! did you find out about your asdf question yesterday? i can help if you still need it. 18:54:04 Xach: no, I didn't 18:54:19 long time no see Xach 18:54:38 SecretValor [~SecretVal@i59F5FA9F.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:55:25 (asdf:clear-system "system-name") will flush asdf's cache of a given system. 18:55:36 also, it's not very reliable to use cl:load to load .asd files. 18:55:46 unless they are specifically written with that use in mind. 18:59:08 luckily they are all written that way. Cool I shall use clear-system next time. Perhaps it would be nice to add a clear-system-and-retry restart to asdf operations on systems 18:59:47 how I can create a hash with quotes ? 19:00:32 kushal: You mean like how you can evaluate '(1 2 3) to get a list? Or something else? 19:00:36 gonzojive: please, no more features 19:01:04 Xach, yes 19:01:13 kushal: there is no built-in literal syntax for hash tables. 19:01:19 Xach, ok 19:06:47 -!- SecretValor [~SecretVal@i59F5FA9F.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: See you!] 19:06:50 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216.239.45.17] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 19:08:08 -!- vervic [~vervic@091-141-057-171.dyn.orange.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:10:30 ASau [~user@95-28-79-252.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 19:10:57 vervic [~vervic@091-141-057-171.dyn.orange.at] has joined #lisp 19:11:50 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.208] has joined #lisp 19:12:09 -!- vervic [~vervic@091-141-057-171.dyn.orange.at] has quit [Client Quit] 19:12:29 gonzojive: w/r/t monitoring http://gbbopen.org/ 19:12:37 SuChek_ [~SuChek@unaffiliated/suchek] has joined #lisp 19:15:00 gonzojive: not a webfrontend but this would prob. get you somewhere further down the road: http://gbbopen.org/hypertutorial/tutorial-control-shell.html 19:15:51 -!- SuChek [~SuChek@unaffiliated/suchek] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:16:00 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 19:17:09 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.255] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:18:02 what is wrong with this piece of code http://paste.lisp.org/display/123909 ? 19:19:15 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:19:52 is your hash test capable of retrieving keys that are strings? 19:20:33 kushal: it is indented wrong. it uses an unnecessary PROGN. 19:20:46 I guess I am creating it in a wrong way 19:20:51 Xach, ok, 19:20:54 -!- kslt1 [~karl.sier@netblock-208-127-156-174.dslextreme.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:20:55 (result-hash (make-hash-table :test 'equal)) 19:21:02 kushal: it's also better to use (unless x ...) instead of (when (null x) ...) 19:21:10 Xach, ok 19:21:27 Xach, will make the changes 19:21:38 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:22:04 Also it would be helpful to see more context. I don't use RETURN-FROM all that often and I usually find it means I have awkward control flow. 19:22:24 -!- HG` [~HG@p5DC059A3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:22:28 Xach, ok 19:22:51 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:24:45 Xach, http://paste.lisp.org/display/123910 19:24:47 sabalaba [~sabalaba_@c-67-180-32-11.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:26:22 kushal: I would use COND for that. 19:26:44 Xach, ok 19:27:18 -!- blb [~blb@c-24-11-236-117.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:27:24 kushal: also, the format nil stuff is a waste - the json encoding already returns a string. 19:27:40 (format nil "~a" foo) can be just foo in that case. 19:27:57 pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 19:28:19 Xach, yes , I missed that 19:28:29 kushal: also, you can just do (let ((releases (readcache "ALLRELEASES")) ...) instead of let + setf. 19:28:44 Xach, yes, just now saw that 19:28:59 kushal: and since the let bindings don't refer to each other it does not need to be LET*. 19:29:18 kushal: also some prefer (zerop (length id)) 19:29:26 mon_key, Xach ok 19:29:34 drl [~lat@110.139.230.255] has joined #lisp 19:30:04 -!- RobBlackwell [~RobBlackw@host86-169-91-64.range86-169.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:30:23 kushal: also, you could use an alist for the error: (json:encode-json-to-string '((error . "Message"))) 19:30:50 Xach, I have been asked to use hashes particularly 19:31:00 it seems everyone loves them 19:31:11 By whom? 19:31:23 Your coworkers? They know Lisp? 19:31:31 kushal: hashes are slower than a-list for up to 35 keys in some implementations, and no less that 5 keys anyways. 19:31:39 Xach, no, they are parsing the JSON I am proving :) 19:32:03 pjb, it will be less than 5 keys mostly :( 19:32:17 Then it would be better to use a-lists. 19:32:23 then alists are better 19:32:26 kushal: I'm not suggesting using an alist for everything, but I think in this case it is clearer to use an alist. 19:32:49 they are looking for a same return syntax for each call 19:33:02 that is hashes as in few calls I have 10+ keys 19:33:07 wedgeV_ [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:10 pers [~user@173-14-16-170-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:16 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:33:16 -!- wedgeV_ is now known as wedgeV 19:33:17 kushal: have a look at adaptative-dictionary in https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blobs/master/common-lisp/cesarum/dictionary.lisp 19:33:17 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:33:38 pjb, ok, doing 19:33:48 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.111.232.25] has joined #lisp 19:37:29 -!- pers [~user@173-14-16-170-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has left #lisp 19:39:05 antgreen [~user@nat/redhat/x-kihzrdrikfkfekcu] has joined #lisp 19:43:12 wedgeV_ [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:27 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 19:43:27 -!- wedgeV_ is now known as wedgeV 19:43:36 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:44:15 blb [~blb@c-24-11-236-117.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:51:13 kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 19:52:09 fourier` [~user@h-198-178.a176.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 19:54:28 -!- kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:54:32 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:55:02 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 19:55:31 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:56:06 -!- sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:00:48 -!- argiopeweb [~elliot@155.31.50.175] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:00:50 carlocci [~nes@93.37.220.240] has joined #lisp 20:00:53 -!- corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:01:34 pnq1 [~nick@AC812E6F.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 20:02:15 corni [~corni@schleptop.visitor.camp.ccc.de] has joined #lisp 20:02:15 -!- corni [~corni@schleptop.visitor.camp.ccc.de] has quit [Changing host] 20:02:15 corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has joined #lisp 20:02:50 -!- blb [~blb@c-24-11-236-117.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:03:55 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 20:03:57 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:03:57 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA26C6E.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:07:33 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 20:08:12 -!- replore [~replore@ntkngw133234.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:09:24 pnq [~nick@172.163.9.229] has joined #lisp 20:10:38 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 20:10:59 -!- pnq1 [~nick@AC812E6F.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:11:18 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-172-233.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:11:36 blb [~blb@c-24-11-236-117.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:32 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 20:14:40 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:17:48 -!- blb [~blb@c-24-11-236-117.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:18:32 ympbyc [~ympbyc@219-89-18-125.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:21:48 how can I split a string ? 20:22:12 by which criteria? 20:22:21 You could split it by alternate character. 20:22:24 stassats, say based on one char ? 20:23:53 (let ((position (position char string))) (values (subseq string 0 position) (subseq string (1+ position)))) 20:25:00 blb [~blb@c-24-11-236-117.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:28 stassats, just modified the example from http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/strings.html 20:25:52 I guess this is nice time for me to move all utils functions to a separate file 20:25:54 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 20:25:58 stassats, thanks :) 20:26:12 kushal: so you want to split by char, but not a single time? 20:26:20 stassats, yes 20:26:28 then why not just use split-sequence? 20:26:34 or CL-PPCRE 20:27:22 like (ppcre:split char string) 20:28:00 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.111.232.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:28:18 stassats, ah, never new about it , thanks once again :) 20:28:42 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 20:28:49 turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:02 -!- turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 20:31:16 -!- ympbyc [~ympbyc@219-89-18-125.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has left #lisp 20:31:31 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:31:48 convulsive [~convulsiv@ppp-94-68-242-48.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 20:32:37 -!- convulsive [~convulsiv@ppp-94-68-242-48.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Client Quit] 20:35:31 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:37:33 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 20:39:24 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:42:07 kushal: strings are sequences. Therefore you can use split-sequence. 20:43:51 pjb, ok 20:44:02 no sequence is safe from its splitting powers! 20:44:16 http://www.cliki.net/SPLIT-SEQUENCE this one ? 20:44:38 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:44:45 that's the one. quicklisp has it as split-sequence too 20:48:41 -!- drdo [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:51:39 antifuchs, ok, thanks :) 20:53:11 time to go home and get some sleep 20:53:16 see you all in the morning 20:55:34 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d011c13.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:55 hi 20:56:18 hi 20:56:47 Hi! Is there any way to get a Haskell like type system for Common Lisp? 20:57:05 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-175-29.vologda.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:57:08 peterhil: no. 20:57:21 You can uninstall your common lisp implementation and switch to Haskell. 20:57:27 I want to do function composition with functions of many arguments, and that seems to be the way to go. 20:57:36 Haskell has a very Haskell-like type system. 20:57:56 Well, is there a way to specify the output type of a function? 20:58:04 yes 20:58:07 With some MOP magic? 20:58:10 no 20:58:14 How then? 20:58:19 clhs ftype 20:58:19 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_ftype.htm 20:58:23 what does that have to do with the type system? 20:58:29 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 20:58:38 sure 20:58:53 The type system would enable to ensure that two functions are composable if they have the same input and output types 20:59:15 I want to do *Functional* Reactive Programming. 20:59:42 I have been looking into Cells, but I'm not sure if that is flexible enough. 20:59:49 fbass [~fbass@75-173-95-248.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:19 *stassats* does dysfunctional passive programming 21:00:44 Ah, Cells. I use Cells every day! 21:01:11 sykopomp: willingly? 21:01:26 stassats: Hell no. 21:02:00 sykopomp: is it that bad? 21:02:09 hahaha 21:02:26 It does some cool things. 21:02:40 peterhil: if you want haskell, you should try haskell. There is also qi, I think, which is somehow a bit lispy. 21:03:02 Depending on what you want to do, you can construct your own engine to do what you want 21:03:10 *stassats* doesn't really know what Cells is to this day 21:03:14 but it's got some fantastic corner cases that are all sorts of fun to work around, and using it pretty much makes your lisp stack traces useless. 21:03:28 It doesn't even handle circularity. 21:03:54 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:03:59 hi sykopomp and friends 21:04:21 sykopomp: why does the stack become useless? 21:04:29 i mean stack trace 21:06:06 prxq: it executes things in its own order, reacting to other things changing. 21:06:27 so what you see in the stack trace is the immediate call that failed, but the rest of the trace is just Cells' innards. 21:07:09 sykopomp: i was going to bring back my own cell-mode as part of blocky. it's already ported to CL and works, but needs a few tweaks for the new opengl stuff and syntax 21:07:23 i could add derived fields pretty easy (i.e. Cells :) 21:07:32 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.111.232.25] has joined #lisp 21:07:34 sykopomp: clearly, the solution is to write bug-free code 21:07:51 sykopomp: how often do you use ASSERT? 21:07:55 stassats: ha ha only serious 21:08:03 dto: not very 21:08:41 sykopomp: one moment 21:09:07 dto: okay 21:09:15 sykopomp: or figuring them by just looking at the code 21:09:25 sykopomp: i have a paste that will illustrate my point sort of 21:09:37 about why i've fallen in love with assertions the past few months 21:09:56 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 21:10:08 write enough assertions, and your tests only have to exercise the code :D 21:10:12 stassats: I've gotten fairly good at that recently. 21:11:06 dto: next thing you'll know, you'll be using a statically typed language 21:11:43 stassats: Cells does some things in an easy way... let's say you have a button that is only enabled when the value of such-and-such field is present. 21:11:54 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.255] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:12:08 -!- Lone_Wanderer [~Dan@209-6-38-124.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:13:47 http://pastebin.com/b5U8snJ7 sykopomp 113 assertions in just over 9kloc (according to sloccount) 21:13:54 now many of these aren't very exciting 21:14:03 but, they help me catch errors much closer to the first wrong value 21:14:07 stassats: yes :) 21:14:08 ML 21:14:12 i learned ML before Lisp 21:15:10 i bet your users love ASSERT 21:15:11 sykopomp: i find myself thinking more in terms of pre/post conditions now, to tame bugs 21:15:18 hmm? 21:15:53 stassats: you are correct in that a lot of my assertions are type checks 21:15:59 stassats: but some of the crucial ones arent 21:16:34 https://github.com/dto/blocky/blob/master/language.lisp#L278 and following 50 or so lines, lots of assertions 21:18:03 why do you need (assert (not (null input))) if it will fail in ETYPECASE anyway? 21:18:15 and you (not (null input)) is just `input' 21:18:38 -!- fbass [~fbass@75-173-95-248.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:19:00 stassats: for the first, oops. i might have not used etypecase when i wrote the assertion, is my guess. 21:19:17 stassats: 2nd, sometimes I do that because I think it's clearer as a condition than just (assert foo) 21:19:29 likewise I hate (if var (dothis) (dothat)) 21:19:38 taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:38 i prefer (if (null var) (dothat) (dothis)) 21:19:51 -!- Joreji [~thomas@83-096.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:19:56 that's irrational 21:20:20 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba_@c-67-180-32-11.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:20:21 First, if var is a list, you should use (endp var), not (null var). 21:20:37 pjb: that's a good point. 21:20:53 i'm usually testing non-lists for that, though. 21:20:54 Then, if var is a boolean, you should use var, or (not var) but certainly not (null var). 21:21:04 oh 21:21:22 why not instead of null 21:21:29 *dto* still has MUCH to learn grasshoppa 21:21:37 -!- mperillo [~manlio@151.75.71.52] has quit [Quit: Sto andando via] 21:22:02 anyway sykopomp i like assertions, especially for anything involving data structures 21:22:30 dto: because not is a boolean operator. null is a symbol predicate. 21:22:33 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:22:40 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:22:41 dto: so unless you are considering symbols, you should not use NULL. 21:22:55 pjb: ok, thanks. wow 21:22:58 makes sense. 21:23:15 those stupid rules make me cringe! 21:23:17 () = code, '() = empty list, nil = boolean false, 'nil = symbol named "NIL". 21:23:17 stassats: Thanks, I didn't know about ftype 21:23:23 -!- bleakgadfly [~cato@li146-221.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:23:29 i bet i was thinking C when i used (null some-non-list-object) 21:23:49 drl [~lat@110.139.230.255] has joined #lisp 21:24:02 bleakgadfly [~cato@nd.gd] has joined #lisp 21:26:05 -!- macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 21:27:31 -!- rabite [~rabite@4chan.fm] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:27:54 Joreji [~thomas@83-096.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:30:11 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@78.96.101.240] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:30:24 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:31:28 cmatei [~cmatei@78.96.101.240] has joined #lisp 21:34:49 -!- antgreen [~user@nat/redhat/x-kihzrdrikfkfekcu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:34:53 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.111.232.25] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:35:01 ltriant_ [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:36:23 sabalaba [~sabalaba_@c-67-180-32-11.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:56 tdJj [~tdj@24.121.250.162] has joined #lisp 21:37:49 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-184-202.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:39:51 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:40:45 macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 21:41:08 RobBlackwell [~RobBlackw@host86-169-91-64.range86-169.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:42:24 Jubb [~ghost@68.34.79.50] has joined #lisp 21:45:09 -!- tdJj [~tdj@24.121.250.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:46:33 tdJj [~tdj@24.121.250.162] has joined #lisp 21:51:25 zfx [~zfx@host109-156-61-111.range109-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:51:25 -!- zfx [~zfx@host109-156-61-111.range109-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 21:51:25 zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 21:51:51 -!- jdz [~jdz@host199-107-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:53:42 -!- blb [~blb@c-24-11-236-117.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:54:28 cheezus [~Adium@69-165-129-59.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 21:55:34 I was wondering how to use ftype, but apparently it doesn't work on repl with SBCL at least. 21:55:55 that's because you used it wrongly 21:56:41 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:57:20 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:51 I noticed... :-/ :-$ 21:58:25 So it is meant to be used like this: (defun oscillate (seq) 21:58:25 (declare (ftype (function (complex-matrix) complex-matrix) oscillate)) 21:58:25 (mexp (m* (rad j) seq))) 21:58:25 so, do you have a question? 21:58:42 Inside comiled functions? 21:58:48 ...compiled 21:59:06 no, it's not meant to be used like this. if you want to declare a type of oscillate globally, use DECLAIM 22:01:40 So a declare form can be on top level, and a proclaim or declaim inside a lexical scope (like inside a function) then? 22:02:00 yes, but the other way around 22:02:21 The CLHS isn't very clear on this... 22:02:54 So, declaim or proclaim on top level, and declare inside function? But I just did the latter, and you said it's wrong? 22:03:34 yes, your error has nothing to do with declaim or declare 22:04:45 But declaim gives a style warning inside a function, suggesting a declare was probably wanted 22:05:08 that's because you shouldn't use it inside a function 22:05:30 No? Just above outside or on top of file usually? 22:05:55 yes, on the top-level 22:05:57 I mean above the function definition like in Haskell? 22:06:32 above, below, wherever you want 22:06:51 -!- SuChek_ [~SuChek@unaffiliated/suchek] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:09:50 but before you want it to take effect, of course 22:10:00 Ok, thanks now I got the syntax right. 22:10:29 lisper [18d1340b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.209.52.11] has joined #lisp 22:10:56 charli [~charli@e181221205.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:11:12 -!- zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:11:59 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.208] has joined #lisp 22:12:03 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:12:10 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:12:41 argiopeweb [~elliot@184.91.40.175] has joined #lisp 22:13:03 I was poking around the sbcl assembler code and noticed there are no emitters for instructions like PXOR. If I tried my hand at adding these for x86 and amd64, would there be a chance of inclusion in a future sbcl version? 22:13:30 -!- charli [~charli@e181221205.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:13:40 -!- ltriant_ is now known as ltriant 22:13:40 I'm sure there's a chance (: 22:13:58 best ask on #sbcl, it's where most sbcl devs hang out 22:14:06 oh O.o 22:14:32 lisper: what would it be used for? 22:14:33 Macroexpanding on repl helps to figure out what happens. A declaim is tranformed to a proclaim surrounded by(eval-when (:COMPILE-TOPLEVEL :LOAD-TOPLEVEL :EXECUTE) ...) 22:14:43 well part of my asking is making sure it has not already been done %.% 22:14:44 for which vop, i mean 22:15:00 stassats none yet :x 22:15:10 Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.253.187] has joined #lisp 22:15:18 and you can add instructions locally 22:15:26 'yet' being the key word ^-^ 22:15:31 stassats oh? 22:15:46 well obviously I can 22:15:50 i mean without it needing to be included into sbcl 22:17:00 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.119.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:17:27 *stassats* once added an instruction for POPCNT and used it instead of LOGCOUNT, with marginal improvements 22:17:41 charli [~charli@e181221205.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:17:58 lisper: as long as you don't want to patch the disassembler as well, you can add instruction definitions at any time. 22:18:08 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:18:25 pkhuong what happens when we try to patch the disassembler? 22:18:30 world blows up? 22:18:51 the bulid-time facilities have been cleaned up and the definition fails. 22:18:57 -!- charli [~charli@e181221205.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:19:16 ooh, so I have to turn sb-fluid on or something? 22:19:21 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 22:19:24 or just recompile it? 22:19:37 you'd have to rebuild. 22:19:55 owch, feels like C! 22:19:58 -!- jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.56] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:20:13 pkhuong: for what reason? 22:20:29 i wouldn't imagine that it takes too much space 22:20:30 so I was right, the REPL's world does blow up xD 22:20:44 stassats: the clean up? Beats me. Probably saved a significant amount of core bytes 15 years ago. 22:20:57 lisper: no. It just fails graciously and you can carry on. 22:21:51 -!- ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:22:21 pkhuong nevermind I was trying to joke about having to recompile the whole program. 22:22:37 actually, popcnt is twice as fast as logcount, but you'd need to do many logcounts to notice the difference 22:22:58 stassats: it's smaller though, and that's always good. 22:23:19 So, how can I tell the declared/declaimed/proclaimed or derived type of a function type programmatically, as describe only prints the information? 22:23:29 -!- argiopeweb [~elliot@184.91.40.175] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:23:39 (sb-ext:typeexpand variable) 22:23:41 Some day I'll go through our VOPs and emit calls to assembly routines instead of inlining almost everything. 22:23:43 (sb-ext:typeexpand name) 22:23:45 sorry :P 22:23:59 pkhuong: but i have tested it only on one machine, and besides, popcnt isn't available on all CPUs 22:24:19 stassats: we do have the build-time facilities for such things, though. 22:24:40 oh wait, function type would be sb-introspect:function-type 22:24:41 backend-subfeatures? 22:24:45 stassats: right. 22:25:07 stassats, speaking of that does sbcl use cpuid in any major way to tell what instruction sets are availible? 22:25:40 stassats: that could be a runtime flag, though. The core would just be a tiny bit more generic. 22:25:49 lisper: no. 22:26:18 charli [~charli@e181221205.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:27:36 -!- charli [~charli@e181221205.adsl.alicedsl.de] has left #lisp 22:27:49 to include popcnt into sbcl i would have to actually figure out how define-instruction and define-vop work, not just cargo cult them 22:28:19 stassts, I've been trying to figure it out too xD 22:28:28 I don't like writing code I don't understand 22:28:36 so macroexpand and M-. comes in handy 22:28:43 and that means x86 instruction format too 22:28:46 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-74-67-199-254.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:29:11 oh I have x86 instruction format down, knew that before I looked at sbcl's internals 22:31:00 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-93-103-241.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:31:27 so regardless if I want to mess with adding instructions I probably should go figure out how the disassembler works too. 22:31:42 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-72-226-124-205.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:33:26 one useful application for POPCNT would be optimizing COUNT on bit-vectors, though, i suppose some SSE instruction might deal with it better 22:34:13 stassats: not really. 22:34:16 though one thing I have not quite figured out is how you guys tell the assembler a particular instruction is or is not availible on a given machine. 22:34:50 http://www.strchr.com/crc32_popcnt says "PSHUFB (SSSE3) is 3% faster than POPCNT" 22:34:51 if CPUID is not used, what is? 22:35:13 lisper: lowest common denominator is used 22:36:15 oh, well might it be useful to detect some of this info while compiling functions and whatnot? 22:36:17 mrSpec [~Spec@pool-151-204-255-122.bstnma.btas.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:17 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@pool-151-204-255-122.bstnma.btas.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:36:17 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 22:36:20 i don't know what it is on x86, i486, perhaps 22:36:53 lisper: it might, but no one implemented it 22:37:13 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 22:38:02 stassats: these days, i686 is IMHO sensible lowest common denominator for machines equipped with enough ram to run SBCL :) 22:38:08 ok, fair enough. Perhaps I can make a start at it by getting cpuid info into some sort of lispy format. 22:38:41 lisper: you might find #sbcl to be a more appropriate place to discuss SBCL internals 22:38:43 beyond that I'd not have a clue though :( 22:39:01 replore_ [~replore@ntkngw133234.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:39:02 ok 22:39:23 stassats: pkhuong: not really POPCNT wouldn't help or not really SSE might deal with it better? 22:39:31 lisper: you could use it to push features onto sb-c:*backend-subfeatures* 22:39:41 mon_key: SSE wouldn't help much. 22:39:49 pkhuong: thanks 22:40:03 -!- bleakgadfly [~cato@nd.gd] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:40:13 mon_key: stassats pasted a nice reference, if your application is popcount-bound. 22:40:24 3% doesn't sound much indeed, and then you'd get all the alignment problems 22:40:24 strchr.com? 22:41:00 see http://wm.ite.pl/articles/sse-popcount.html also 22:41:20 my sb-c:*backend-subfeatures* is nil O.o 22:41:23 stassats: that was kinda what I was intuiting. that all the gain is lost in the alignment 22:41:37 stassats: then again, our vectors are naturally aligned. 22:41:49 lisper: that's right 22:42:12 it's only for optional subfeatures 22:43:00 kwertii [~kwertii@ResNet-33-19.resnet.ucsb.edu] has joined #lisp 22:43:15 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:43:42 yeah backend.lisp explains it fairly well 22:44:07 the only potentially subfeature for x86 is :cmov 22:45:40 and about SSE again, popcnt also saves space 22:45:43 -!- corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:46:38 lisper: Thanks, but how typexpand is supposed to work then? I only get it to tell the type from a type scpecifier, not from a symbol name which has been declaimed to be of some type. 22:47:03 peter yeah I corrected myself shortly after. Sorry. sb-introspect:function-type 22:47:04 peterhil: lisper directed you to sb-introspect:function-type instead 22:47:16 Ah ok 22:47:42 But introspection and playing with function types is implementation specific then? 22:48:10 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: "Object-oriented design" is an oxymoron] 22:48:11 peterhil yes, it is not in the spec 22:48:37 cltl2 extensions are fairly common, though 22:48:49 someone might have written a package somewhere that handles the implementation specific details of function-type for each implementation. 22:50:03 ok 22:50:05 I know CCL does it, and I'm pretty sure others would too, else slime would be unable to inspect functions and whatnot as well. 22:50:24 peter, do you have swank/slime? 22:52:15 lisper: Why yes? I had a TAGS file on SBCL sources also, but I should regenerate it... 22:52:16 oh nevermind. I thought swank had an exported function-type. 22:52:26 To use M-. 22:52:37 you don't need a TAGS file for that 22:53:05 But I could have found out from the source of describe, how that finds those information out... :-) 22:53:26 yes, M-. works without TAGS 22:54:23 nicdev_ [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 22:54:40 peter yea that is exactly what I was going to suggest. 22:54:40 I know swank contains a ton of implementation specific code for introspection 22:54:51 -!- fourier` [~user@h-198-178.a176.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:55:19 but regardless if you only need it to work on sbcl, sb-introspect:function-type works, and on ccl I believe it is ccl:function-type IIRC. I don't have a ccl repl connected atm though 22:57:01 fbass [~fbass@75-173-95-248.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:20 so you could just do (defun function-type (fn) #+sbcl (sb-introspect:function-type fn) #+ccl (ccl:function-type fn) #-(or sbcl ccl) (error "Unsupported implementation")) 22:58:17 it's [sb-cltl2|ccl]:function-information, but ccl doesn't seem to return type information 22:58:50 stassats bah, I know I had this working on ccl :( 22:59:12 well specifically for function-type, not the rest of it. 23:02:08 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-131-129.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:05:45 zfx [~zfx@217.39.7.252] has joined #lisp 23:05:45 -!- zfx [~zfx@217.39.7.252] has quit [Changing host] 23:05:45 zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 23:07:49 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:07:50 -!- nicdev_ [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: nicdev_] 23:10:03 xan_ [~xan@vpn13.hotsplots.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:00 zfx- [~zfx@109.144.223.69] has joined #lisp 23:11:20 (defun function-type (fn) #+sbcl (sb-introspect:function-type fn) #+ccl (ccl:function-type fn) #-(or sbcl ccl) 'function) 23:12:10 the only problem is that ccl has no function-type 23:13:03 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 23:13:42 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.253.187] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:13:49 -!- zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:15:07 -!- gonzojive [~gonzojive@142-141.198-178.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 23:15:23 tsanhwa [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has joined #lisp 23:15:29 -!- replore_ [~replore@ntkngw133234.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:16:45 nicdev_ [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:18:10 cheezus1 [~Adium@69-165-129-59.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 23:18:57 -!- cheezus [~Adium@69-165-129-59.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:21:19 gonzojive [~gonzojive@142-141.198-178.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 23:21:27 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@78.96.101.240] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:24:46 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:25:18 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:27:15 oh pjb nice change, though it could probably use a (typep fn 'function) somewhere... but then again it is example code on IRC ^-^ 23:28:04 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 23:28:25 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:30:40 hey stassats why move fasl storage to /tmp/fasls? 23:32:10 cmatei [~cmatei@78.96.101.240] has joined #lisp 23:32:49 isn't this open to a symlink attack? 23:32:54 it's on a ramdisk 23:33:09 oh, it's only for his pc 23:33:09 and not to trash the SSD 23:33:10 nvm 23:33:37 goodnight 23:33:49 stassats: just curious. 23:34:08 and i don't reboot the desktop (only suspend), so it's always there, but even if i reboot it FASLs are not valuable 23:34:38 yeah, makes sense. 23:35:08 (and i have plenty of free RAM) 23:36:46 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.220.240] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 23:38:35 stassats: is your commonqt branch aggregate-fixes still the prefered for building the other stas-ware? 23:39:08 don't know about tracking-gui, but it's required for cl-qt-web-browser 23:39:26 though cl-qt-web-browser is lame, so you won't miss much 23:40:06 (it even has the lamest name) 23:40:12 yes, what i am looking at. though I'm more interested in tracking i guess... finally have a saner setup and figured i'd take another look. 23:40:41 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:41:11 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.255] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:41:17 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-69.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:41:37 qt-webkit doesn't seem anymore to me as a viable option to make a customizable web-browser to me 23:41:44 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 23:42:26 slow? 23:42:42 no, you have to write many things yourself 23:43:27 i think i would be better by writing extensions to chrome or firefox, or modifying their sources 23:43:56 neither of which involves lisp, sadly 23:43:58 I doubt you'd be happy extending firefox. 23:44:26 I imagine it's memory management would make you crazy. 23:44:51 i don't care about memory management, but about UI 23:46:27 If you can say, what is your target application? 23:47:14 it's not about application, just optimizing the way i interact with a browser 23:47:51 OK. so its a usabolity/control thing. 23:48:27 right, and automatizion 23:48:52 That you are attempting with CL because you are a lisper... 23:49:10 i was attempting 23:53:08 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:53:57 drl [~lat@110.139.230.255] has joined #lisp 23:54:34 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:57:22 -!- tdJj [~tdj@24.121.250.162] has quit [] 23:59:16 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 23:59:20 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]