00:01:15 Phoodus: How many times have you come across reference comtemporary or historical to Common Lisp as a poor choice for OS/GUI work b/c of the "dynamic and slow" curse? Yet, here we are in the bright shiny future circa 2011 with HTML5/JS/SVG poised to become the new platform for OS/GUI development... 00:01:20 *JuanDaugherty* doesn't understand what problem mon... 00:01:43 mon_key: those are 2 different audiences saying such things 00:03:08 mon_key: did you hear the quip about the NeWS system from what's his name? 00:03:09 and OS and GUI are two totally different things 00:03:22 JuanDaugherty: not anymore.... 00:03:35 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 00:03:38 have you _seen_ Gnome Shell? 00:03:55 Xach: ? 00:04:04 mon_key: http://xach.livejournal.com/108729.html - see "...was like AJAX, but" 00:04:50 Xach: cool! 00:05:46 XML was one of the biggest marketing scams in computing 00:06:25 glad to see anything step in its place 00:06:35 even if it's a write-only language ;) 00:12:23 -!- tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Quit: sleeping] 00:15:48 -!- Joreji [~thomas@83-096.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:15:48 Xach: I spent some time with zpb-exif yesterday. I'm trying to get a windows bmp converter going. Reading zpb-exif helped me decipher exiftool's bmp module which i was using for guidance w/r/t into the bmp header format. switching between zpb-exif's CL and exiftool's Perl was quite an eye opener. 00:18:29 benny [~benny@i577A8390.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 00:18:45 I wanted to add more to it, but o for the time 00:20:29 summersault [~george@201.78.62.211] has joined #lisp 00:20:29 sbcl's type checker is really good, but it seems to miss out in this case: (defun demo (fn x) (funcall (the (function ((integer 0 100)) (values fixnum &optional)) fn) (1+ x))) Of course the function could be gotten from anywhere such as a struct slot. SBCL correctly infers that the result of the function DEMO is a FIXNUM, but is unable to deduce that the argument to DEMO is (integer 0 100). The type info is there but it does not seem to 00:21:17 Xach: Yeah, you can see where you wrote it for extensibility. 00:21:46 and actually... should be (INTEGER -1 99), but I'm nitpicking myself. SBCL is only able to determine the arguement to DEMO is a NUMBER. 00:21:58 I think it should be able to do better for some reason. 00:22:01 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-74-67-199-254.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:23:15 if you don't do any addition with the input argument, SBCL's type signature for DEMO is (function (t) (values fixnum &optional)) 00:23:43 lisper: "The best representation of the number X as an (integer 1 99) can be obtained from applying the JavaScript operator ToString to X." 00:24:56 I'm missing the joke if there is supposed to be one. 00:25:15 it's a joke from a few dozen lines back 00:26:13 lisper: How exactly is python failing you? 00:26:16 ah I see. I did not read the convo. I came directly from the REPL ^-^ 00:26:49 mon_key I think I explained what I percieve as a problem fairly well. 00:27:06 1+ takes and returns a number 00:27:25 so you could see why that masks the integer range knowledge 00:27:34 if you don't do any addition with the input argument, SBCL's type signature for DEMO is (function (t) (values fixnum &optional)) 00:27:40 but no the above 00:27:44 sorry for requoting myself 00:27:45 correct 00:27:49 lisper: seems like the signed integer in -1 woudl be a hindrance 00:28:49 lisper: in order for it to do what you want, it would have to know that the return type of 1+ is "type of the parameter, except when it's a fixnum of 1 less than most-positive-fixnum, which would make it a bignum" 00:29:01 well the type signature for DEMO without the (1+ ...) [why I put this there I don't know... my mistake] should be (function ((integer 0 100)) (values fixnum &optional)) 00:29:18 "and also if it's a bignum 1 less than most-negative-fixnum, then it returns a fixnum" etc 00:29:26 I doubt sbcl holds that sort of type information 00:29:31 it does 00:29:44 I mean I doubt it holds teh type of information in my quotes 00:29:52 oh not that 00:29:57 that's the only way to make it work 00:30:07 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483B46A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:30:10 to have the knowledge of what 1+ does to change integer type specifications 00:30:14 if you don't do any addition with the input argument, SBCL's type signature for DEMO is (function (t) (values fixnum &optional)), it should be (function ((integer 0 100)) (values fixnum &optional)). 00:30:19 unless it special-cased mathematical functions like that 00:30:28 what's the type signature for 1+? 00:30:41 ah, yeah that's something else 00:31:44 and phoodus, if you did (defun foo (x) (declare (type (integer 0 100) x)) (1+ x)) SBCL will figure the return type to be (integer 1 101). 00:32:05 but yeah the 1+ made my example case harder then it should be 00:32:41 (defun demo (fn x) (funcall (the (function ((integer 0 100)) (values fixnum &optional)) fn) x)) ; type signature is (function (t) (values fixnum &optional)), it should be (function ((integer 0 100)) (values fixnum &optional)) 00:33:00 huh 00:33:03 How on can python possibly deduce that the argumen is (integer 0 100)? 00:33:16 *Phoodus* has no idea what mon_key's on about 00:33:17 There is no way. 00:33:52 mon_key why not? It figured the return type out just fine. The argument type for x is right there. 00:33:56 Phoodus: lisper wants python to deduce the type signature for X based on the "the" assertion... it doesn't hold 00:34:05 where is X ? 00:34:16 or rather where/when/what is X 00:34:26 oh, python as the name of the sbcl compiler? 00:34:31 lisper: I believe funcall might be breaking that 00:34:33 fe[nl]ix: Free tips on how to use iolib's multiplexer? 00:34:49 -!- xan_ [~xan@66.201.52.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:35:11 Just make an event-base and add callbacks with set-io-handler ? 00:35:12 p_l what I was thinking. I know it works fine if I defined a function normally instead of an inline lamda as in my example. 00:35:42 alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #lisp 00:36:32 lisper: what happens if you declare x? 00:36:34 oh no it only works fine when funcall is not used 00:36:47 xan_ [~xan@66.201.52.88] has joined #lisp 00:37:20 mon_key it works as normal. I can even make the type declarations conflict and not get a compiler warning. eg (declare (type symbol x)) 00:37:48 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81E02D.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:37:59 lisper: well there you have it then. 00:38:07 I would get a compiler warning if it were a normal function call. 00:38:21 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.14.86] has joined #lisp 00:38:31 but funcall breaks it, and I'm not sure there is a good reason why it should when all the information is right there. 00:38:32 the where/when/what of X is slippery 00:39:10 maybe there is, and I just don't see it. 00:39:18 lisper: _all_ the information is _not_ there. 00:40:31 but had I defined (defun thefn (arg) (declare (type (integer 0 100) arg) ....) and call like (thefn x), the type of x is recognized as being within that bound. 00:40:59 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:41:08 call like (thefn x) when? 00:41:11 but if I do (funcall #'thefn x) it breaks 00:43:40 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 00:45:10 lisper: (funcall #'thefn x) has non-deterministic type 00:45:26 impossible to derive at compile time 00:45:39 lisper: "in the latter case FUNCTION is obtained by the special interpretation of the function position that normally occurs." 00:45:39 00:46:06 -!- xan_ [~xan@66.201.52.88] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:46:12 clhs funcall 00:46:12 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_funcal.htm 00:46:30 -!- n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@46.158.89.38] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:46:44 p_l, well I think two things are at work. First I just realized I'm expecting CMUCL behavior without turning tha tcompiler option on. 00:47:32 the associated issue is particularly telling: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/iss175_w.htm 00:49:10 yeah, sb-ext:*derive-function-types* 00:49:17 was the behavior I was expecting 00:49:20 mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-076-182-089-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:49:35 which now makes sense why it was not doing so :) 00:50:24 -!- Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:50:46 http://clisp.sourceforge.net/impnotes.html#exit-on-error Is there an equivalent to this in SBCL? I found http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Debugger-Invocation.html#Debugger-Invocation. Am I supposed to bind that variable to a function that calls sb-ext:quit? 00:50:53 Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:57 and of course the standard link, expecially the second one you gave makes sense :) 00:51:15 lisper: TIL about sb-ext:*derive-function-types* :) 00:51:30 TIL? 00:51:48 lisper: Today I Learned 00:51:53 ah! :) 00:52:21 I guess that works. Silly me. 00:52:33 MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:52:42 mrSpec [~Spec@pool-151-204-255-122.bstnma.btas.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:42 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@pool-151-204-255-122.bstnma.btas.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 00:52:42 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 00:52:45 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-74-67-199-254.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:53:51 assuming your image has ready access to the debugger 00:55:08 i.e. --disable-debugger 00:58:02 pnq [~nick@ACA28BB7.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 00:59:39 -!- peearr [~aaron@159.153.4.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:00:04 -!- SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@VEROXITY.ipcolo1.SanFrancisco1.Level3.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:06:13 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:07:44 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:08:11 McMAGIC--Copy 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[~fgump__@188.74.82.177] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:08:16 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-ponvblsxidiuaihd] has joined #lisp 03:08:16 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-ponvblsxidiuaihd] has quit [Changing host] 03:08:16 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 03:11:06 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-181-173.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 03:13:45 g'night all 03:13:55 -!- ChibaPet [~mason@c-68-58-147-105.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:31:57 good morning all :) 03:34:45 austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:36:16 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.147.22] has quit [Quit: rme] 03:38:26 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.48.61] has joined #lisp 03:39:36 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 03:40:19 -!- The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip72-192-56-169.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 03:43:24 replore_ [~replore@g1-223-25-190-182.bmobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:50:35 Evanescence [~chris@122.237.32.84] has joined #lisp 03:53:10 -!- replore_ [~replore@g1-223-25-190-182.bmobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:54:55 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 03:56:25 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-181-173.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:57:33 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-74-67-199-254.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:04:14 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:04:14 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 04:04:15 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 04:05:45 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:06:55 slackgoodboy [ddd525e2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.221.213.37.226] has joined #lisp 04:09:02 fixnump is in C code O.o. src/runtime/fixnump.c 04:09:10 errm 04:09:10 -!- slackgoodboy [ddd525e2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.221.213.37.226] has quit [Client Quit] 04:09:12 fixnump is in C code O.o. src/runtime/fixnump.h 04:11:27 -!- __class__ [~class@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:11:35 Hundenn [~Hunden@e180103248.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 04:12:18 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:14:17 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.43] has joined #lisp 04:15:35 -!- Hunden [~Hunden@e180101041.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:15:56 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 04:22:00 -!- weirdo [~sthalik@d135-185.icpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:23:19 lisper: you mean there's *a* fixnump for C code. 04:29:05 weirdo [~sthalik@d135-185.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 04:34:55 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:35:27 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 04:37:36 z1l0g [jgw@sverige.sdf.org] has joined #lisp 04:37:59 -!- hba [~hba@187.171.200.6] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:38:04 -!- z1l0g [jgw@sverige.sdf.org] has left #lisp 04:43:46 -!- am0c [~am0c@218.51.116.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:46:22 am0c [~am0c@218.51.116.50] has joined #lisp 04:47:08 -!- zmv [~daniel@c95334de.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:53:42 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-dqiuhzowdcoymfzf] has joined #lisp 04:59:08 slyrus [~chatzilla@99-28-163-38.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:59:52 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@98.14.92.234] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 05:03:10 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-mykurisjomighxyq] has joined #lisp 05:07:46 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:10:25 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:11:57 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 05:13:41 -!- antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-1177890641.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:17:27 http://paste.lisp.org/display/123750 i don't seem to get a backtrace sldb buffer. instead i see just a printed backtrace in the repl . am i doing something wrong? SBCL 1.0.47.24 05:19:27 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:19:47 -!- summersault [~george@201.78.62.211] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:21:00 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 05:25:27 __class__ [~class@99-105-57-153.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:26:09 alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #lisp 05:36:11 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-186-191.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:44:45 i figured it out and fixed it. possibly this is fixed in more recent sbcl: http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.steel-bank.devel/month=20060601/page=14 05:54:51 why does every function sbcl compiles has this in the disassembly: 840500000021 TEST AL, [#x21000000]. What is so special about #x21000000 and why is it tested against AL in every function? 05:58:04 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 06:00:04 daniel_ [~daniel@p50829159.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:00:05 fullets_ [~fullets@eth59-167-133-99.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:00:14 -!- fullets [~fullets@eth59-167-133-99.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:00:15 -!- fullets_ is now known as fullets 06:01:10 e-user [~e-user@nat/nokia/x-pfwbzeachjdyjhnh] has joined #lisp 06:01:34 -!- daniel__1 [~daniel@p50829159.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:01:49 -!- ozzloy [~ozzloy@unaffiliated/ozzloy] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:02:35 -!- elliottjohnson [~elliott@elliottjohnson.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:02:36 ozzloy [~ozzloy@unaffiliated/ozzloy] has joined #lisp 06:02:40 elliottjohnson [~elliott@elliottjohnson.net] has joined #lisp 06:03:43 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 06:04:20 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:04:37 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:13:09 -!- MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:14:17 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:7a2b:cbff:fed0:c11c] has joined #lisp 06:14:17 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:7a2b:cbff:fed0:c11c] has quit [Changing host] 06:14:17 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 06:14:28 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:18:10 aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 06:18:59 realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:20:31 dmiles [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-46-145.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 06:21:03 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-46-145.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:23:25 SuChek [~SuChek@unaffiliated/suchek] has joined #lisp 06:23:37 Joreji [~thomas@83-096.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 06:25:47 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:27:10 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:27:42 good morning 06:29:48 hi mvilleneuve 06:30:46 -!- ISF [~ivan@187.106.54.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:33:42 jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-133.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:33:43 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.48.61] has quit [Quit: head home] 06:41:56 Kids, never go to sleep when you have "just one little function" left to fix up. Evil SETFs will come to haunt you in your sleep and you won't have a REPL to fend them off 06:42:09 At least that's what happened to me 06:42:13 *phryk* feels like turd. 06:43:15 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-133.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:44:37 what made the SETFs evil :( 06:45:10 -!- Joreji [~thomas@83-096.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:45:53 lisper: They were where they weren't supposed to be functions called from within a scope with a SETF'd variable would manipulate that variable and fuck everything up 06:45:59 Also I think they had big teeth. 06:46:56 O.o yikes. 06:48:11 Yep. I'm feeling a bit groggy, still I'll be off to work now, see you^^ 06:49:06 bye 06:53:25 lisper: I have no idea, but it might be a signal, so that processing is done only at known points (entry of functions). 06:54:21 pjb that was my first thought, but I saw a few functions check it multiple times thoughout. And it is always to that same memory location 06:55:51 I even did an empty function (with optimization cranked up to 3 and safety at 0; only to get it to produce clean/readable assembly not for actual use...) of (defun blank ()) and disassembled that. ^-^ 06:58:57 emacs-dwim [~user@cpe-67-249-179-243.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:59:58 http://paste.lisp.org/+2NHJ is the assembly output of the shortest possible function I could make. Note that sbcl emits that TEST AL op and never checks the result of it ^-^. I was seeing this quite a bit actually. 07:01:12 I mean my question is not terribly important, but I do find that a curiosity. 07:01:58 If you did not do that test, then you would not have to do the following CLC op either. 07:06:44 ASau [~user@95-25-192-7.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 07:09:24 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-165-188.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:10:05 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-126-136.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:10:06 -!- insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-126-136.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Changing host] 07:10:06 insomnia1alt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 07:11:00 Hunden [~Hunden@e180103248.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:11:04 -!- Hunden [~Hunden@e180103248.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 07:11:54 -!- cnl [~cnl@78.31.74.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:13:07 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:13:07 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 07:15:46 areil [148b9232@gateway/web/freenode/ip.20.139.146.50] has joined #lisp 07:24:43 lisper: if the result of the test is not used, perhaps it has something to do with the cache? 07:25:06 Or setting the flags to a known value. 07:25:14 Is the value of AL known? 07:25:40 It would probably be easier to find it in the sources of sbcl. There must be comments around it to explain it. 07:25:41 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-6-95.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:25:44 did you look at my paste? 07:26:18 the value of AL is not used in that paste at all, other then to test it :D 07:26:43 but nothing is done with the result of the test ^-^ 07:26:44 lisper: or perhaps it's a NOP of know size that can be changed to a breakpoint to the debugger? 07:27:22 oh! nice thought 07:29:27 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 07:36:45 trigen [c1aca602@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.172.166.2] has joined #lisp 07:38:18 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:43:37 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:45:19 -!- mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:45:23 here is another fun assembler oddity. Something went wrong here :D. http://paste.lisp.org/display/123753 07:45:53 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 07:50:25 -!- foocraft [~ewanas@178.152.109.5] has quit [Quit: default SIGPORTAL handler] 07:50:30 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:50:34 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Client Quit] 07:52:21 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 07:53:48 csdwifi [~csdwifi@76.177.215.56] has joined #lisp 07:53:58 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.35.97] has joined #lisp 07:54:19 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.119.222] has joined #lisp 07:55:44 lisper: what are you doing? 08:01:31 that's a known issue -- sequential constant loads aren't coalesced, and the assembler isn't clever enough to clean it up afterwards 08:02:56 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.119.222] has quit [Quit: be back later] 08:03:13 providing a service to people inside and not telling what is running behind is a nice way it seems 08:03:16 :) 08:03:27 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:04:00 nikodemus, btw, you found that svg ? 08:04:49 kushal: didn't really look for it yet 08:04:56 oh ok :) 08:05:24 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.119.222] has joined #lisp 08:05:25 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439933.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:05:36 but i did do some math on shipping costs ... and i don't think i can really offer much in the way of material perks 08:06:22 but i'll probably open a zazzle store or similar so that people who want t-shirts or mugs can get them while still supporting sbcl 08:07:34 nikodemus, yes, easier for people also 08:07:56 nikodemus, only problem will be for the people like us in country far far away :p 08:08:06 is there an easy way to read an s-exp from a file without evaluating it? 08:08:07 shipping cost will be more than 2-3 tees 08:08:21 madnificent: READ? 08:08:39 doesn't READ evaluate whatever was in there? 08:08:41 *madnificent* checks 08:08:51 madnificent: EVAL evaluates 08:09:03 can we do formatted string output, like "%s says %s" % ("kdas", "hello") in python ? 08:09:18 madnificent: or sometimes READ also, if *READ-EVAL* is true 08:09:28 cfy [~cfy@211.140.18.143] has joined #lisp 08:09:28 -!- cfy [~cfy@211.140.18.143] has quit [Changing host] 08:09:28 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 08:09:47 kushal: how's that different from FORMAT? 08:09:50 jdz: ah, i need to shadow *read-eval* THANKS 08:10:02 jdz, thanks, let me read :) 08:10:16 thanks should be a lisp cl function :) 08:10:42 clhs *read-eval* 08:10:42 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_rd_eva.htm 08:10:56 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 08:11:03 jdz, thanks once again :) 08:11:39 hmmm, when reading from a file it might make sense to use a different reader table anyway - that doesn't understand #+, #-, etc. 08:11:47 Hm. 08:12:00 I normally just copy the ";" handler to the "#" handler ... then these issues should be gone, right? 08:12:16 <_3b> READ runs reader macros, which might evaluate or do other things you might not want, but READ itself doesn't evaluate 08:12:19 (save-lisp-and-die "some.core") reminds about core dump rather than saving image. 08:12:19 sharps [~hazel@121-72-240-85.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #lisp 08:12:34 flip214: characters? 08:12:48 -!- ASau [~user@95-25-192-7.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: off] 08:12:50 flip214: ah no, it may be nice to have some gimmics in there. it's not anything that may be used in a security-related manner. hacks are allowed 08:12:50 ASau: there was an undump utility, which allowed re-starting dumped processes 08:13:46 jdz: of course characters ... just wanted to quote them. Looking back it might have been better to write #\; and #\# (if that's allowed) ;) 08:14:52 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:14:59 *_3b* assumed that meant killing # reader would prevent reading characters 08:15:18 *_3b* would probably be more worried about not being able to read hex though 08:15:48 _3b: right, and yes, that too 08:16:08 <_3b> ## and #= could be important for some uses as well 08:16:15 and vectors/arrays 08:17:45 <_3b> have to be a bit more careful with vectors/arrays though, untrusted input can use up memory pretty quickly with those :) 08:18:18 tfb [~tfb@80.238.0.145] has joined #lisp 08:19:00 well, *read-eval* only changes handling of #. ... but #= might be bad in some cases, too (eg. if expecting a proper list) 08:19:41 <_3b> lacking #= would be bad if you wanted to preserve identity of shared sublists though 08:20:07 <_3b> (or support circular lists in general) 08:21:17 brandwe [~brandwe@c-71-227-176-38.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:21:48 daniel___ [~daniel@p5B3267E9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:24:05 c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-tdyfjwvcmjdbxpov] has joined #lisp 08:24:38 jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-46-38.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:25:06 -!- daniel_ [~daniel@p50829159.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:25:48 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-98-135.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:26:41 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-165-188.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:26:45 I just saw that #, is defined as load-time-evaluation ... would that happen in the reader as well? Probably not ... but it doesn't match the EVAL time either 08:27:43 hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:28:55 CLTL2 says about #+ "feature should be a Boolean expression composed of and, or, and not operators ..." ... _should_? could I put a (SETF) there, too? 08:30:13 no. your computer will die. 08:32:02 What would the point of a setf there be? 08:32:38 Zhivago: hacking, intrusion, DOS, entertainment? 08:32:47 a CL without a setf feature would be kind of constraining ;) 08:32:55 (and technically not a CL) 08:32:59 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 08:36:39 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.119.222] has joined #lisp 08:36:46 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.119.222] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:37:24 <_3b> you 'could' put whatever you want there, but the CL is equally free to reject it if it isn't a valid feature expression 08:37:27 I think you're confusing feature and function there. 08:38:36 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@78.185.216.43] has joined #lisp 08:38:36 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@78.185.216.43] has quit [Changing host] 08:38:36 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:42:10 -!- lichtblau [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:42:19 flip214: As far as I recall, #, is not part of the ANSI standard. 08:42:28 Well, operator and feature. 08:44:12 tsanhwa [~user@61.129.42.97] has joined #lisp 08:46:03 jmbr [~jmbr@curio.mat.ucm.es] has joined #lisp 08:46:46 -!- Harag [~Harag@dsl-242-254-64.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:52:26 markskil1eck [~mark@host-92-12-20-157.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 08:53:45 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gw.maxisat.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:53:48 Phoodus: technically, it would be a subset of CL. 08:54:39 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:55:04 flip214: you can use #. in a feature expression, as long as you return a symbol, or a :and or :or or :not expression. 08:55:20 Remember that feature expressions are read in the KEYWORD package! 08:55:33 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.35.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:55:58 (defvar *my-var*) '(#+#.(cl:progn (cl:setf cl-user::*my-var* 42) '(:and)) Hello) ; pretty useless... 08:57:54 pjb: I thought more along the lines of READing some data with embedded code, like (:user X :password Y #+(cl-user:progn (cl-user:load "swank") (swank:start-server ...)))) 08:58:45 paradoja [~paradoja@acceso-cmp174-200.lpa.idec.net] has joined #lisp 08:59:56 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-186-191.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:00:31 DelPuerto [~youguy@252.Red-83-36-122.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:00:50 if there's one disadvantage of the current crop of IDE's, it is having to go through pages and pages of tutorial screenshots on how to configure them 09:00:52 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:05:08 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@curio.mat.ucm.es] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:09:03 -!- DelPuerto [~youguy@252.Red-83-36-122.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:19:17 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 09:23:50 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:25:39 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-183-29.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:31:12 flip214: the reader is generally considered unsafe for user-supplied data 09:31:33 flip214: there are various tweaks available to make it not evaluate stuff and be safer, but in general, it cannot be trusted. 09:31:42 H4ns: thanks, I know ... 09:32:05 the few cases where I used it I just overloaded the #\# character to act like #\; 09:34:11 Vaaal [irc2gowebc@net-2-40-115-96.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #lisp 09:34:59 i, i use ccl with emacs. When i type c-x c-s or (load "..") a file, i would to change the predefinite path in wich emacs search. How should i do it? 09:35:37 Vaaal: emacs has nothing to do with where an inferior lisp will search its files. 09:35:42 What do you want to do? 09:36:04 i want to put all the file that i save in a single folder 09:36:04 clhs *default-pathname-defaults* 09:36:04 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_defaul.htm 09:36:09 thank you 09:36:39 in emacs, you can use M-x set-default-directory 09:36:55 thank you :-) 09:37:30 If you use slime, there are various slime commands related to directories. M-x apropos RET slime directory RET 09:37:44 i will try 09:38:11 M-x slime-set-default-directory should help I guess (never used it). 09:39:13 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.14.86] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:39:27 where do you save your file? 09:39:31 in the predefinite path? 09:40:18 I createa directory per project. 09:40:34 Either in ~/src, ~/works or ~/firms/$CUSTOMER/ 09:41:16 -!- __class__ [~class@99-105-57-153.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:41:37 ok 09:41:52 -!- zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has quit [Quit: Be back later] 09:42:07 Vaaal: in emacs you can easily create a new directory: Save the file with C-x C-w to some path, it will complain the directory doesn't exists, type M-x make-directory RET RET and C-x C-s 09:42:27 oooh 09:42:31 this is really helpful! 09:42:37 let my try.. 09:43:19 btw, does someone about a good vim extension to do some lisp ? I tried slimv, but it's definitely no practical :/ 09:43:38 s/about/know 09:43:45 not* 09:43:52 (uuuh, morning ...) 09:45:04 pjb, when i want to create a file directly in a specific directory, how could i do? 09:45:15 -!- markskil1eck [~mark@host-92-12-20-157.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:45:16 i tipe c-x c-f, but it create the file into emacs directory 09:45:44 The_third_man: sadly, programming in lisp really is only practical with emacs or a lisp ide. all professional lisp programmers do it either way. 09:46:00 Yeah, I guess I'll have to stay on emacs :( 09:46:06 Vaaal, is your emacs configured ? 09:46:08 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:46:16 The_third_man what do you mean? 09:47:03 did you modified something ? 09:47:15 i've binding some key 09:47:20 Because for me the default behavior is that emacs let me choose the path 09:47:21 like M-č and M-+ 09:47:32 yeah, and how can i choose the path? :-D 09:47:51 The_third_man: what is inpractical in slimv? 09:47:54 C-x C-S an you type the path 09:48:05 yes but i've to type it every time 09:48:11 isn't the same for you? 09:48:15 flip214, the multimode in the swank split ? 09:48:41 or the fact that there is no asynchronous buffer 09:48:43 The_third_man: g:slimv_split=0 or g:slimv_open_repl=0 09:49:24 well, it might not be perfect (yet) ... but Tamás is working on it 09:49:33 taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has joined #lisp 09:49:42 I think it's fairly usable .. 09:50:06 I'm not really fond of it 09:52:30 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:52:32 Vaaal, when I do it on a already existing file, i have the path of the file by default 09:53:50 mmm 09:54:28 suppose i've some lisp file in a folder on the desktop, that is not the default path. 09:54:57 When i use load, i would emacs or slime to search directly in that folder, so i don't have to type all the directory. Is that possible? 09:55:10 i mean, when i use (Load "lispname.lisp") 09:55:48 did you try to launch emacs from this particular directory ? 09:55:51 Vaaal: first off, you need to understand that emacs and your lisp are two seperate things. both have default directories they look for. 09:56:20 i know, and i think i've to change the default setting of my lisp implementation. 09:56:33 Vaaal: the CL:LOAD function consults CL:*DEFAULT-PATHNAME-DEFAULTS* to complete incomplete pathnames, so whatever you set that variable to is used as default. 09:57:02 silenius [~silenus@f116051.upc-f.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 09:57:07 Vaaal: the slime repl has a ,cd command that you can use to change CL:*DEFAULT-PATHNAME-DEFAULTS* and the default directory of the slime repl buffer at the same time. 09:57:10 urandom__ [~user@p548A3706.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:57:12 flip214 : how do you set the options you wrote ? I tried with :set but it does not seem to work 09:57:46 H4ns, what do you mean with "has a ,cd command"? 09:57:59 Vaaal: type ",cd" in the slime repl buffer 09:58:13 ahh, thank you :) 10:06:50 if i (load "...") a file that load another file, the second load works? 10:07:14 DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has joined #lisp 10:08:02 Vaaal: it works according to the same rules as the first one (i.e. it looks at CL:*DEFAULT-PATHNAME-DEFAULTS*) 10:08:56 Vaaal: you can set CL:*DEFAULT-PATHNAME-DEFAULTS* to the value of CL:*LOAD-PATHNAME* in order to load files from the same directory, but in general i'd recommend that you learn how to use ASDF instead. 10:09:14 Vaaal: things get tricky once you start compiling your programs, and using ASDF is really not that hard. 10:09:47 H4ns, i would use asdf but i would someone explain to me exactly how to work 10:09:50 Vaaal: the default-directory in emacs is the directory of the current buffer. For a file buffer, it's the directory where the file is stored. 10:09:53 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:09:53 or a site.. 10:10:13 Vaaal: so an easy way to create a new file in a given directory, is to type C-x C-f on a file buffer that is already in that directory. 10:10:23 Vaaal: (a good reason not to kill any buffer). 10:10:29 Vaaal: http://xach.livejournal.com/278047.html?thread=674335 10:10:47 Vaaal: You can also open a directory. Type: C-x C-f ~/some/directory/ RET 10:10:56 Vaaal, http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#Controlling-where-ASDF-searches-for-systems 10:11:03 H4ns, isn't that a guide for quicklisp? 10:11:04 Vaaal: then When you are in this directory buffer, if you type C-x C-f you will have it by default. 10:11:24 Vaaal: there are also things like M-x dired, and M-x speedbar 10:11:24 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181056239.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:12:11 Vaaal: yeah. you may as well learn how to use that at the same time. 10:12:19 All you have to do to configure asdf is to create a file in ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d/ containing the path were the library is 10:12:38 look a the 7.5 in my link 10:13:55 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.119.222] has joined #lisp 10:14:31 wait wait wait 10:14:40 my mother needs my help :D 10:15:26 ^^ 10:15:55 zfx [~zfx@mail.inqmobile.com] has joined #lisp 10:15:55 -!- zfx [~zfx@mail.inqmobile.com] has quit [Changing host] 10:15:55 zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 10:16:14 the problem is that i really don't know how to organize my program. 10:16:31 With this asdf, i've anyway split all the stuff in packages? 10:17:06 And i've to put the defpackage in a single file, and the code in other file, as seibel suggested? 10:17:28 that's what I did, and it is the easiest way I think 10:17:29 Vaaal: why don't you follow xach's tutorial? 10:17:48 Good solution too :D 10:17:50 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.119.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:17:53 -!- alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:18:09 H4ns, ok i will try, but if i can't understand things i will bother you again ^^" 10:18:22 no problem :D 10:18:39 Vaaal: first read. then read. then read again. 10:18:43 if you need an example for an asd file : https://github.com/thethirdman/fr-clpl/blob/master/fr-clpl.asd 10:18:59 thank you all ^^ 10:19:23 (I have to update the .asd file btw) 10:21:12 -!- EyesIsServer [~eyes@unaffiliated/eyesismine] has quit [Quit: Holidays] 10:28:00 The_third_man: use "let", they're not VIM settings 10:32:11 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:32:45 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.164.64] has joined #lisp 10:33:27 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.119.222] has joined #lisp 10:33:31 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.119.222] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:34:07 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 10:35:38 -!- anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:38:09 -!- lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@77.16.33.126.tmi.telenormobil.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:38:45 mstevens [~mstevens@ceres.etla.org] has joined #lisp 10:38:45 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@ceres.etla.org] has quit [Changing host] 10:38:45 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 10:43:02 Harag [~Harag@dsl-242-254-64.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:46:48 can i make a really stupid question? 10:46:56 What the (tilde) means in a pathname? 10:47:27 Eataix [~Eataix@CPE-58-165-251-47.lns1.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:47:59 cnl [~cnl@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 10:48:34 when xach says thing like "I create a config file named ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d/projects.conf " where i should put the file? 10:49:31 -!- Eataix [~Eataix@CPE-58-165-251-47.lns1.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Client Quit] 10:49:36 Vaaal: the tilde is your home directory 10:50:22 the directory that i see when type ,cd ? 10:50:28 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 10:51:17 Joreji [~thomas@83-096.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:51:30 Vaaal: your home dir in the system 10:51:52 Vaaal: i.e /home/[user-name]/ 10:52:15 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 10:52:21 ah ok thank u 10:52:34 Vaaal: you're welcome 10:55:30 H4ns` [~user@p4FFC84D4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:57:33 Stupid questions do not exist. Only stupid answers. 10:58:31 -!- brandwe [~brandwe@c-71-227-176-38.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:59:20 lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@77.16.33.126.tmi.telenormobil.no] has joined #lisp 10:59:36 -!- H4ns [~user@p4FFC8CDE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:03:07 -!- cnl [~cnl@78.31.74.25] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:03:08 kdas_ [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-wazdkwssoblqoxhk] has joined #lisp 11:04:11 -!- Joreji [~thomas@83-096.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:04:28 -!- silenius [~silenus@f116051.upc-f.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:07:04 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 257 seconds] 11:07:16 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 11:07:52 -!- areil [148b9232@gateway/web/freenode/ip.20.139.146.50] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:08:13 SuChek_ [~SuChek@unaffiliated/suchek] has joined #lisp 11:08:52 i can't understand this parte of xach's guide: "Second, Quicklisp includes ASDF2. I like to set up ASDF2 to scan a particular directory tree, ~/src/lisp/, for local systems. To do that, I create a config file named ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d/projects.conf that has this in it: " 11:08:56 who could help me? 11:08:58 cfy__ [~cfy@123.158.247.2] has joined #lisp 11:09:11 i'm in windows xp, i don't know where i've to create teh config file. 11:09:50 It is in your user directory. 11:09:55 Just like on unix. 11:10:09 so in Documents and Settings? 11:10:16 One level up. 11:10:37 C:\? .-. 11:10:48 No. 11:10:52 Wait then. 11:11:04 C:/Documents and Settings/Valerio[that'smyname]..? 11:11:15 Yes. 11:11:23 Somewhere around that. 11:11:24 -!- SuChek [~SuChek@unaffiliated/suchek] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:11:32 and then? I've to search about a src folder? 11:11:34 or what? 11:11:51 Create a trivial .sbclrc there and check if it works. 11:12:07 Put something like (print "hi") there, and see. 11:12:19 If SBCL uses it, you've found it. 11:12:27 sorry, what do you means with .sbclrc? 11:12:28 Vaaal: try (user-homedir-pathname) to find out what lisp thinks is your home directory. 11:12:35 thank you xach 11:12:47 -!- cfy__ [~cfy@123.158.247.2] has quit [Client Quit] 11:12:49 I'm not sure that SBCL defines it there. 11:12:59 yes, it is /documents and settings/Valerio 11:13:06 maybe the problem is that i don't have sbcl, i've ccl 11:13:14 Vaaal: so if you see ~ you can substitute that value instead 11:13:17 Oh, then it is another story. 11:13:37 oh good 11:14:09 -!- sdaone [~sdaone@h216n2fls31o933.telia.com] has left #lisp 11:14:39 cfy__ [~cfy@123.158.247.2] has joined #lisp 11:14:40 ccl 1.6 knows ~. 11:15:19 So does emacs. 11:15:26 misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has joined #lisp 11:15:26 Though emacs and CL might disagree about it on Windows. 11:15:27 sure it know, the problem is that I don't know. 11:15:36 -!- H4ns` is now known as H4ns 11:16:29 anyway, xach, i type (tilde).config/common-lisp/etc, then pute (:tree (:home etc)) but doesn't works, it say that there is no such file or directory. 11:16:43 (obviously (tilde)/.config etc. 11:16:49 ) 11:17:36 Vaaal: emacs says that? 11:17:54 "no such directory" 11:18:16 Vaaal: You have to create the directory. M-x create-directory RET will do it in emacs if you are visiting a file in a directory that does not exist yet. 11:19:12 uhm 11:19:34 M-x create-directory -> [no match] :\ 11:19:40 I have a cl-sql:connect on the top of the package , then query calls inside various functions in a hunchentoot based service , if two users are trying to access it simultaneously connection to mysql is going away , saying Error 2006 / MySQL server has gone away 11:19:51 Vaaal: sorry, I got it wrong. M-x make-directory 11:19:59 ok, thank you as ever 11:20:00 -!- lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@77.16.33.126.tmi.telenormobil.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:20:06 how exactly I can make sure that all calls use the same connection 11:20:07 ? 11:20:11 peterhil` [~peterhil@gw.maxisat.fi] has joined #lisp 11:20:14 -!- kdas_ is now known as kushal 11:20:24 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-wazdkwssoblqoxhk] has quit [Changing host] 11:20:24 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 11:20:34 kushal: They are already using the same connection. 11:20:55 kushal: You have to ensure that no two calls use the same connection at the same time, or that two simultaneous calls use separate connections. 11:21:27 Xach, how one does that ? actually came across to this situation before 11:21:28 mrSpec [~Spec@pool-151-204-255-122.bstnma.btas.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:21:28 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@pool-151-204-255-122.bstnma.btas.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 11:21:28 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 11:22:10 drake01 [~drake01@115.246.174.146] has joined #lisp 11:22:20 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:22:42 kushal: I've seen people use a connection pool. clsql has support for it built-in. 11:22:43 lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@77.16.33.126.tmi.telenormobil.no] has joined #lisp 11:22:45 -!- drake01 [~drake01@115.246.174.146] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 11:22:55 Xach, ok, searching 11:25:05 Guest12764 [~drake01@115.246.174.146] has joined #lisp 11:25:18 -!- Guest12764 [~drake01@115.246.174.146] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 11:28:54 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-237-169.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 11:28:59 PokeTron [~PokeTron@unaffiliated/poketron] has joined #lisp 11:29:01 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:29:04 Xach, do you know any app whose code I can read the for the pool ? 11:29:07 -!- PokeTron [~PokeTron@unaffiliated/poketron] has left #lisp 11:29:42 anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has joined #lisp 11:30:01 kushal: No, sorry. 11:30:13 -!- emacs-dwim [~user@cpe-67-249-179-243.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:30:18 ok, thanks , have to do more search in that case 11:30:38 Is the manual descriptive enough? 11:30:57 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 11:31:14 Joreji [~thomas@83-096.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:31:48 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.35.97] has joined #lisp 11:33:44 this quicklisp is really awesome. 11:37:22 Thanks. 11:38:00 Xach, sorry to bother you: in the src/lisp directory i've some lisp.lisp, lisp.asd, package.lisp file. I've created they for mistake ? Can i delete them? 11:38:01 -!- nicdev_ [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: nicdev_] 11:38:38 What do you think would happen if you deleted them? 11:38:54 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gw.maxisat.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:40:10 i think my head could explode 11:41:09 no, really, it seems not useful to me. Maybe i've create it for mistake. err right? :-\ 11:41:50 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-6-95.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:42:59 Vaaal: You'll have to decide for yourself. 11:45:00 BOOOM 11:45:55 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-74-67-199-254.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:50:47 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:50:59 peterhil` [~peterhil@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe4af800-59.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 11:52:18 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-46-145.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:52:54 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:52:54 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 11:52:54 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 11:53:06 nicdev_ [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 11:53:06 -!- nicdev_ [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 11:54:41 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-74-67-199-254.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:56:01 spark_ [~spark@123.147.247.114] has joined #lisp 11:56:16 Vaaal: what you can do if you're not sure about deleting them, is to move them away, and see if anything breaks. mkdir /tmp/away ; mv lisp.{lisp,asd} package.lisp /tmp/away 11:56:20 Davidbrcz_ [~david@ANantes-151-1-189-112.w2-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:56:28 just do it, thank you :) 11:56:30 Then if something breaks, you can move them back. 11:56:36 nothing seems breaking ^^ 11:57:25 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 11:57:38 i've another little question: when i split my code in multiple file, and update the defsystem, i've to update also the package.lis or quicklisp do it for me? 11:57:47 *.lisp 11:58:43 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-38-170.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:58:51 Vaaal: no, just put at the beginning of each file a (in-package :your-package) form. 11:59:01 workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 11:59:18 Well, you will have to upadte the defsystem in the .asd file. 11:59:27 -!- tsanhwa [~user@61.129.42.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:59:41 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe4af800-59.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:59:51 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:00:09 i've to update the package.lisp file to include the (defpackage.. )? 12:00:56 Vaaal: what are you really trying to do? 12:01:11 Vaaal: if there was no defpackage in package.lisp, yes. 12:02:11 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 12:02:39 Vaaal: mostly, (dolist (f '("file1" "file2" "file3")) (load f)) is equivalent to (run-shell-command "cat file[123].lisp > all.lisp") (load "all.lisp") 12:02:41 and vice versa. 12:03:23 So if you have a defpackage, in-package and defun forms in a single file, you can cut it in two, with the defpackage in one, and the in-package and defun form in the other, then load the two files in succession. 12:03:33 Vaaal: see 12:03:33 clhs load 12:03:34 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_load.htm 12:03:48 for more details about *readtable* and *package* being bound around the loading... 12:03:53 Xach, cl-mysql is failing to build on a x86_64 (on quicklisp) 12:04:04 (hence why you should put a in-package form at the beginning of each file in general). 12:04:36 mm 12:04:59 pjb, i'm trying to understand of to well organized my program 12:05:15 xach in the guide make ti example: 12:05:31 kushal: why? 12:05:40 Xach, can not find libmysqlclient_r.so 12:05:48 (asdf:defsystem #:swatchblade :serial t :depends-on (#:etc) :components ((:file "package") (:file "utils") etc)) 12:05:56 Xach, I guess some path issue as it in in /usr/lib64 12:06:05 my question is: the "utils" and other file in components are part of the same package? 12:06:12 Vaaal: yes. 12:06:12 trying to find the code which is doing that 12:06:17 ok xach. 12:06:23 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 12:07:03 ok, in system.lisp 12:08:54 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 12:11:53 Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:13:01 -!- Evanescence [~chris@122.237.32.84] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 12:13:37 peterhil` [~peterhil@gw.maxisat.fi] has joined #lisp 12:13:52 Vaaal: the first thing you have to understand, is that the executing program is loaded all in the memory. Whether it comes from several files or from a single one, it's all the same, once it's loaded and executing. 12:14:04 Yuuhi [benni@p5483B75E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:14:25 Vaaal: then, spliting a program in different files is not much different from spliting it into different functions. Why don't you write the whole program as a single function? 12:14:36 The same answer on why you don't put it all in a single package or a single file. 12:15:12 But then, if you have different elements (functions, packages, files), you have dependncies between them: a function calls another function. A package uses another package. To load a file, you need to have loaded another file. 12:15:24 It's exactly the same thing, only at a different level. 12:16:42 Each of those elements, function, package, files, they need their own consistency. The must deal with a single thing (it may be a big compound thing, but still, we need to be able to describle in a sentence what this thing is). 12:18:06 Vaaal: now, of course the difficulty is that you can classify things following different classification schemes, often orthogonal classification schemes. So it's sometimes difficult to decide how to split things. With experience, you'll learn what kinds of classification work and what don't help. 12:18:38 Vaaal: the point here is that it depends on your project, what your program does, and how it's structured. 12:19:02 So tell us about your program? Vaaal: what are you really trying to do? 12:21:11 uhm 12:21:14 sorry, i went to dinner 12:21:15 wait 12:22:21 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:22:28 does anyone use both paredit and slime-scratch? 12:22:49 if so, how do you get slime-scratch's C-j to take precedence over paredit's? 12:22:56 Xof: C-c s s? 12:23:06 -!- zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has quit [Quit: Be back later] 12:23:44 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 12:23:56 oh, i don't use slime's C-j... 12:24:04 jdz: when I enter the slime-scratch buffer with the selector, C-j ends up bound to paredit-newline 12:24:12 neither do i use paredit's tbm 12:24:18 tbh even 12:24:21 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:24:28 Xof: yes, i see what you want 12:24:47 but i never noticed this problem because i don't use C-j at all 12:25:11 so i'm of no help 12:25:18 fair enough 12:25:29 -!- Vaaal [irc2gowebc@net-2-40-115-96.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:26:24 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 12:26:40 kushal: re your email on clsql do you know about http://common-lisp.net/project/clsql-fluid/ ? 12:27:16 perhaps it's a threading issue that you're seeing 12:27:57 -!- taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:28:33 clsql-fluid now available in quicklisp! 12:28:36 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:29:10 flip214, nope, let me check 12:31:16 If I use slime-repl with an inferior lisp process, now if I disconnect in the SLIME-REPL buffer, how to reconnect to the swank server from the inferior process? 12:31:18 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 12:31:59 flip214, can you point me to some other example of fluid ? not being able to understand from that weblocks example 12:32:23 kushal: the difference between fluid and clsql is that fluid is thread-safe, clsql is not 12:32:32 ok 12:32:36 that sounds like the problem, right? 12:32:39 yes 12:32:52 flip214, but how to use it , any docs/manuals to read ? 12:33:11 -!- Joreji [~thomas@83-096.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:34:29 just load it instead of clsql, IIRC 12:34:45 ie. (ql:quickload :clsql-fluid) instead of (ql:quickload :clsql) 12:34:56 AFAIR it is a drop-in replacement 12:35:02 ok 12:38:25 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:39:47 rolando [~user@238.37.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 12:41:41 Xach: how about having clsql as an alias to fluid? I can't find a reason to prefer clsql ... 12:41:53 might save some confusion 12:41:58 Xach: did you get my previous messages ? 12:42:14 fe[nl]ix: I did, thanks for the info. 12:42:20 :) 12:44:40 hrmmm..sbcl 1.0.50 segfaults for me on amd64. Is it just me? 12:44:55 schme: how can you tell? 12:45:01 vaaal [irc2gowebc@net-2-40-115-96.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #lisp 12:45:14 Xach: How can I tell what? 12:45:14 pjb 12:45:29 my connection drop me out, but i was reading what you was writing 12:45:34 schme: How can you tell that it's segfaulting? 12:45:43 " But then, if you have different elements (functions, packages, files), you have dependncies between them: a function calls another function. A package uses another package. To load a file, you need to have loaded another file. " 12:45:50 what after this? 12:46:02 vaaal: see http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/2011-08/ 12:46:20 Xach: I tried running the binary and it says it segfaults. 12:46:34 Daev [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:46:36 thank you xach 12:46:36 schme: works for me 12:46:37 ./run-sbcl.sh: rad 60: 1439 Segmenteringsfel SBCL_HOME="$BASE"/contrib "$BASE"/src/runtime/sbcl $ARGUMENTS "$@" 12:46:52 flip214: thanks. 12:46:53 at least the debian 1.0.50 binary 12:47:08 dunno about that one. I'm trying the sbcl.org one. 12:47:23 schme: I'm using the Arch one, and it works fine and dandy. 12:47:23 schme: linux version? 12:47:29 pkhuong: 3.0 12:47:37 sykopomp: I'll give that one a try. 12:47:42 ah, yes. There's a couple issues with that. 12:48:08 oh boy 12:48:18 Try ? 12:48:23 hi 12:48:23 ah yeah. I'm not running testing :) 12:48:33 pkhuong: I'll look there. thanks. 12:48:39 may I use quicklisp to load file.asd ? 12:49:06 instead of asdf ? 12:49:06 pkhuong: I hope this sucker builds with clisp then (: 12:49:11 Xach, when i quickload something and in the lisp file i've a in-package, shouldn't slime prompt switch from "CL-USER>" to "NAMEofPACKAGE>"? 12:49:15 Posterdati: only when the moon is full and in a 81.2° right ascension to mars 12:49:31 ;) 12:49:34 flip214: sys 64738 12:49:41 oh nooooo .... 12:49:50 flip214, getting the same issue 12:49:57 flip214: look at the space between sys and 64738 12:50:20 Posterdati: still \x20 for me 12:50:27 vaaal: No. The scope of in-package is limited to a file. 12:50:39 flip214: I bought PAIP 12:50:43 ah, thank you 12:51:05 beach` [~user@ABordeaux-552-1-78-65.w90-38.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:51:09 vaaal: the CL function LOAD establishes a new binding for CL:*PACKAGE* before loading, so any changes to that binding are undone when it returns. 12:51:13 beach`, hi 12:51:13 fine ... if you'd asked my I could have sent it to you ... it's not that much of a distance 12:51:31 So many Italians! 12:51:34 flip214: wow 12:51:42 Xach: not me 12:51:42 flip214: you'd give it to me? 12:51:52 Posterdati: borrow 12:51:58 flip214: lol 12:52:14 flip214: you don't know italian postal sevice then 12:52:33 well, that's true ... but if you'd paid for that I'd have used DPD or something like that 12:52:34 Posterdati, are you italian? 12:52:50 flip214: anyway, what do you think of this? http://cgi.ebay.it/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200633217596&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT 12:53:01 perhaps there's someone travelling the route anyway 12:53:01 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:53:12 vaaal: yes, but it's not due to me 12:53:25 flip214: and you ? 12:53:47 Posterdati: I can only read half of the page, but I think a cheap netbook will be faster ;) 12:53:59 schme: there's a lot of unrelated changes in there, but the relevant ones are only for x86 it seems. 12:54:00 lolů 12:54:10 Posterdati: a bit north of you 12:54:11 flip214: 189,9 12:54:19 flip214: france? 12:54:24 flip214: germany? 12:54:27 nnnnnnnnno 12:54:27 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-552-1-119-240.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:54:52 flip214: austria or switzerland 12:55:41 sweden? 12:58:10 schme: does uname say it's 3.0 or 3.0.0? 13:00:47 Posterdati: sorry, was afk ... sweden is too much north 13:00:48 thank you xach, finally i've done it!!! :) 13:00:54 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181056239.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:02:02 pkhuong: 3.0 13:02:36 pkhuong: I'll just use ccl for now. 13:02:51 That probably causes a segfault when parsing the version string. 13:03:00 brilliant 13:03:03 It's a one-line change. 13:03:19 heh 13:03:23 the dangerous belgium? 13:03:29 flip214: the dangerous belgium? 13:03:33 Posterdati: please play that game in private 13:03:45 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181056239.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:04:34 *schme* grabs some sbcl source then. 13:05:26 Let me bootstrap one for you. 13:07:20 in hunchentoot when two requests come for the same url, does it create two different threads to provide the pages ? 13:07:45 Hum... Requests come from client browsers... 13:07:58 kushal: by defaults, it creates threads for new incoming connections in threaded lisps 13:08:20 That two client browser send the same Referrer seems irrelevant to the creation of threads. 13:08:21 kushal: typically, each browser opens up multiple connections, so there are typically n threads per browser/client 13:09:17 H4ns, ok, so that means I can be sure of my problem, using clsql (or clsql-fluid) wrongly 13:09:34 kushal: i have trouble parsing that sentence 13:09:35 question is how to use it in the right way 13:09:57 kushal: if you want to make progress, establish a lock around the functions that access the database for now. 13:10:05 kushal: then worry about the problem later. 13:10:06 drake01 [~drake01@115.246.206.87] has joined #lisp 13:10:35 H4ns, but that will make the access slower , each database call taking more than 20seconds 13:10:46 kushal: is it a DB problem (ie. no transactions used) or a lisp problem (same DB handle used concurrently)? 13:10:59 flip214, second one 13:11:00 kushal: right. 13:11:11 the second one should be fixed with fluid - unless you're on a windows build _without_ threads ... 13:11:15 genieliu [~genieliu@59.78.62.120] has joined #lisp 13:11:16 look at *features* 13:11:18 kushal: but you'll probably not improve performance by running multiple queries in parallel. 13:11:31 flip214, I am using fluilds now 13:11:40 and getting the same error 13:11:48 kushal: and does your build thread-aware? 13:11:49 H4ns, not too much , but few amount 13:12:18 flip214, sbcl on Fedora , supposed to be with thread 13:12:24 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-076-182-089-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:12:30 hmmmm 13:14:38 flip214, H4ns speed is my selling point for this app 13:15:03 or else people run away when they hear "LISP" :) 13:15:06 kushal: 20 seconds response time? 13:15:37 H4ns, at max if data not cached 13:15:53 H4ns, somebody needs to fix the db also 13:16:09 which I can not 13:16:23 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gw.maxisat.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:16:28 schme: does work better? 13:17:13 kushal: what i meant to say is that if your db is slow, sending multiple requests in parallel will not likely be beneficial to the response time of your own application. you can certainly worry about that, but i'd first try to get it to run, then get it to run fast. 13:17:32 H4ns, ok 13:17:44 kushal: if you want to sell lisp on speed and you are bound by the response time of your database, i can see how you have a hard sell. 13:17:59 true 13:18:38 pkhuong: No. same thing. 13:19:21 strace gives me this pretty much. 13:19:23 uname({sys="Linux", node="myhost", ...}) = 0 13:19:23 --- {si_signo=SIGSEGV, si_code=SEGV_MAPERR, si_addr=0x1} (Segmentation fault) --- 13:20:11 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@65.49.112.78.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 13:20:29 and where does it die? 13:20:59 oh. wow. I edited the wrong file. 13:21:11 re-uploading from the right machine in a couple minutes. 13:23:40 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 13:24:21 -!- sharps [~hazel@121-72-240-85.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:24:55 does strace work on sbcl yet? :) 13:25:13 ace4016 [~ace4016@99-120-69-226.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:25:57 foom: does it not work with SBCL? 13:27:23 Joreji [~thomas@78-043.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:29:55 schoppenhauer: how about now? 13:30:14 foom: Why would it not work on sbcl? 13:30:28 *schme* grabs 13:30:56 schme: right (: 13:30:57 run "strace sbcl" then type "(hello)" 13:31:12 PokeTron [~PokeTron@unaffiliated/poketron] has joined #lisp 13:31:13 fatal error encountered in SBCL pid 29369(tid 140737353991936): 13:31:13 Unhandled SIGILL. 13:31:13 Welcome to LDB, a low-level debugger for the Lisp runtime environment. 13:31:16 -!- PokeTron [~PokeTron@unaffiliated/poketron] has left #lisp 13:31:30 foom: I'm not sure how this is relevant to my problem. 13:31:41 foom: and it works perfectly fine here 13:31:49 seems to me that strace confirmed pkhuong's suspicion 13:32:06 who said anything about your problem? :) 13:32:17 markskil1eck [~mark@host-92-12-27-48.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 13:32:25 foom: Well it worked fine for me. 13:32:28 pkhuong: same thing. 13:32:28 jdz: oh? architecture/OS? 13:32:57 pkhuong: It's no biggie. I can use ccl for now. 13:33:01 foom: latest ubuntu on x86_64 13:33:05 zfx [~zfx@mail.inqmobile.com] has joined #lisp 13:33:05 -!- zfx [~zfx@mail.inqmobile.com] has quit [Changing host] 13:33:05 zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 13:33:21 schme: can you paste an strace and ideally a backtrace (run it from gdb) 13:33:58 oh. my bad. 13:35:04 uh oh :( 13:35:05 when i use defpackage, i've to export the class name to use it? 13:35:11 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:35:45 vaaal: have you read any introductory material on Common Lisp? 13:35:49 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-dqiuhzowdcoymfzf] has left #lisp 13:36:12 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441928.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 13:36:17 yes, jdz 13:36:30 vaaal: did you read about packages? 13:36:30 always works better to check for null pointers before incrementing them. 13:36:34 yes, jdz. 13:36:52 schme: same again? (: 13:36:52 vaaal: did you understand what you read? 13:37:01 pkhuong: well, *I* can increment NULL pointers just fine 13:37:03 100%, jdz. 13:37:13 pkhuong: there's a third one? 13:37:14 vaaal: then you can answer your question yourself. 13:37:29 mmm 13:37:56 schme: yes. 13:38:30 it's _using_ the not-quite-NULL-pointers that gives a headache 13:38:37 pkhuong: it works like a charm (: 13:39:30 What about incrementing (void*)0xffffffff ? 13:39:49 schme: thanks. 13:41:02 pjb: too short, I'm 64bit 13:41:04 ;) 13:41:08 nice evening everybody 13:41:12 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:42:06 peterhil` [~peterhil@gw.maxisat.fi] has joined #lisp 13:44:06 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gw.maxisat.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 13:44:37 peterhil` [~peterhil@gw.maxisat.fi] has joined #lisp 13:45:52 -!- jweiss___ [~user@nat/redhat/x-wajuysqburmvjcxr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:46:38 ells [~Adium@c-107-3-238-180.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:39 xcv [~xcv@hermes.logmenn.com] has joined #lisp 13:48:50 -!- spark_ [~spark@123.147.247.114] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:49:23 what would you consider the most idiomatic way of doing list comprehensions in lisp? in python i really enjoy the concision of y = [x*2 for x in my_list] . is the usual way of doing this using mapcar? or is there any built-in form that results in even shorter code? will write a macro for it but curious to know if there is something built in 13:49:48 Write a macro. 13:50:00 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 13:50:40 (loop for x in my-list collect (* x 2)) 13:50:45 is there an easy way to express something similarly using the loop macro? 13:50:49 dlowe: ah 13:51:11 and they say I'm not helpful 13:51:14 dlowe: thanks, perfect 13:53:33 ells: I endorse writing a compose macro 13:53:50 ells: Then you do (mapcar (compose #'* 2) my-list) 13:54:02 herbieB: why a macro not a function? 13:54:02 Compose? 13:54:27 Xach: Terminology borrowed from scheme 13:54:28 yeah, and that's not compose 13:54:35 herbieB: do you mean curry/papply? 13:54:51 Yeah, probably poorly named :P 13:55:00 herbieB: compose is something else. 13:55:32 Yeah, that's true, curry is the word I'm looking for 13:55:33 Whoops 13:55:43 ells: I endorse writing a curry function/macro 13:55:45 Ha 13:56:15 herbieB: no need to write that 13:56:54 H4ns: Oh? 13:57:10 google already has it written for you 13:57:24 but it's so hard to install 13:57:37 herbieB: it is part of dozens of utility libraries, alexandria among them. 13:57:52 herbieB: curry probably isn't the word you're looking for, really. 13:58:21 pkhuong: for guys like you, it is commonly called papply :) 13:58:30 H4ns: I know ;) 13:58:52 H4ns: Yeah, my papply/compose/curry/whatever has variable capture, I don't knwo if any libraries do that :P 13:59:06 H4ns: I wasn't really going to look through libraries when 3 lines of code solved my problem 13:59:14 herbieB: something like cut, maybe. 13:59:27 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-043.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:59:30 herbieB: that's how most utility libraries start their lives 14:00:29 H4ns: That's true. It's a problem of communication and community. I'll just do the world a favor and never release mine :P 14:01:24 Joreji [~thomas@78-043.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:01:32 14 or 15 utility libraries, what is the difference? 14:01:37 -!- xcv [~xcv@hermes.logmenn.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:01:42 xcv [~xcv@hermes.logmenn.com] has joined #lisp 14:02:09 1 14:02:26 har har 14:05:10 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 14:06:28 Xach: 15 is the minimum, but you may prove creative and take example on Brian, and have more. 14:06:58 Xach: 37 would be a nice number. 14:07:39 let a thousand flowers bloom 14:08:04 and let natural selection kill nearly all of them off :p 14:08:20 lifeng [~lifeng@bb219-74-170-130.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 14:08:30 that reminds me of one of the Slogans from the back of "Elements of Networking Style" (sorry for the caps): 14:08:39 the rotting flower remains will be kicked off Quicklisp and forgotten 14:08:48 IF WE ARE TO LET 1,000 FLOWERS BLOOM, WE WILL ALSO LET 10,000 WEEDS BLOOM, AND OUR SACRED TASK IS TO PROPERLY DISTINGUISH THE FLOWERS FROM THE WEEDS 14:09:16 In other words: beautiful is good. 14:09:18 very wise 14:09:25 Which is why we have celebrities. 14:09:35 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@bb219-74-170-130.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:09:57 I don't think that's the meaning at all 14:10:23 What distinguishes a flower from a weed? 14:10:24 nauar [~kvirc@70.Red-213-4-38.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:38 Zhivago: the human being. 14:10:47 Lots of things make for desirability other than beauty 14:10:53 The answer is 'beauty'. 14:10:58 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 14:11:02 Many weeds are ornamental flowers elsewhere. 14:11:26 So, that's not the distinguishing feature, then, since many weeds are beautiful 14:11:38 It depends on where you are. 14:12:04 I suspect, actually, that races are an emergent property of fashion. 14:12:19 races are an emergent property of oceanic exploration 14:12:47 Xack: is that elements of internetworking style? 14:12:51 Xach, sorry. 14:13:07 I find it interesting that Apple has sidestepped this problem by deciding not to let 1,000 flowers bloom. 14:13:26 Apple is the flower, and you are the product. 14:13:36 Would it be better to turn things like alexandria into a book form rather than a library? Kind of "copy and paste these into your personal utility library"? 14:13:50 herbieB: you can treat it that way if you want 14:14:46 dlowe: Well, sure, that's true of all code, but I'm talking about official distribution method. 14:15:18 Zhivago: "beauty" or "desirability"? roses in a field of wheat may be considered beautiful by a farmer, but unwanted nevertheless, and therefore weeds. 14:15:24 zfx: no. Elements of Networking Style, by Padlipsky 14:15:30 Secondly, I recant my initial compliment of the quote. I think hardy weeds are better suited for the world than delicate flowers, and that code survival trumps elegance. 14:15:42 *Xach* is sorry he brought it up 14:15:58 Xach: I thought we were still talking about code? 14:16:08 zfx: We were talking about flower farmers. 14:16:21 *dlowe* was talking about code, at least. 14:16:24 Xach: I have it, just wondering if I misremembered the title. 14:16:44 That said, Kernel looks pretty far out. 14:21:21 -!- vaaal [irc2gowebc@net-2-40-115-96.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:21:39 -!- drake01 [~drake01@115.246.206.87] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 14:22:45 fherbieB: well, given the license, I guess you can copy and paste alexandria snippets: http://common-lisp.net/project/alexandria/darcs/alexandria/LICENCE 14:22:58 -!- Daev [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:24:34 pnq [~nick@ACA20AA7.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 14:24:50 pjb: Indeed. I'll add it to my backlog of ideas I'll never actually accomplish in my lifetime. 14:24:52 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-mykurisjomighxyq] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:25:08 carlocci [~nes@93.37.223.50] has joined #lisp 14:31:06 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-179-133.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:31:15 -!- markskil1eck [~mark@host-92-12-27-48.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:32:34 -!- misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:33:05 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 14:36:07 vaaal [~vaaal@net-2-40-115-96.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #lisp 14:36:15 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@99-28-163-38.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:38:29 is cl-sqlite thread safe ? 14:38:52 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:38:52 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 14:38:52 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 14:40:13 slyrus [~chatzilla@99-28-163-38.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:41:22 is sqlite thread safe? 14:42:20 -!- ch077179 [~ch077179@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Changing host] 14:42:20 ch077179 [~ch077179@unaffiliated/ch077179] has joined #lisp 14:42:53 how can i remove an element to an array with a fill-pointer? 14:43:21 i won't use vector-pop, and remove doens't work fine... 14:43:33 Why won't you use vector-pop? 14:43:48 because the element isn't on the top of the array 14:43:51 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-153-68.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:43:58 So, why not swap it with the one that is? 14:44:07 are you asking me 14:44:19 That's what the "?" means. 14:44:23 why i'm searching for something easy instead that to something less easy? 14:44:34 is that what are you asking me? 14:44:42 Swapping with the last element and then popping sounds pretty easy to me. 14:45:18 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:45:19 let me to reformulate the question. Do you know some "remove" function for array with fill-pointer? 14:45:28 vaaal: you haven't given us enough information as to what you're trying to achieve to help you. 14:45:36 REMOVE works regardless of the fill pointer. 14:45:39 mmm 14:45:45 pkhuong, are you sure? 14:45:49 It's just non-destructive, which you might have missed. 14:46:01 when i use a remove in fill pointer it seems work, but then i can't vector-push stuff on the array 14:46:09 no, that's not the problem 14:46:18 try it yourself, maybe i'm wrong, i don't know... 14:46:26 it seems strange to me too. 14:46:35 vaaal: you should pastebin a code sample 14:46:37 vaaal: of what doesn't work 14:46:41 BountyX [~erhan@212.175.106.217] has joined #lisp 14:46:42 ok, wait 14:46:44 the resulting vector isn't guaranteed to have a fill pointer. 14:46:45 Well, it made a new array. 14:46:51 don't make people guess what you're asking. :) 14:47:11 sure, wait ^^ 14:47:22 If you want a variant of remove that is guaranteed to reuse the storage when you pass it a fill-pointer-ful vector, you'll have to write it yourself. 14:47:24 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: "Object-oriented design" is an oxymoron] 14:47:40 -!- BountyX [~erhan@212.175.106.217] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:47:41 vaaal: you need to use replace. 14:47:58 (well you don't need, you could just loop over the elements, but replace comes handy). 14:48:29 pjb, is right that remove doesn't function the right way with array with fill pointer 14:48:31 maybe there are multiple elements to remove. Or maybe order doesn't matter 14:48:33 or i've missing something? 14:48:44 order matter 14:48:58 What's the difference between LIST and SB-IMPL::BACKQ-LIST? 14:49:30 BountyX [~erhan@212.175.106.217] has joined #lisp 14:49:33 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:49:38 -!- BountyX [~erhan@212.175.106.217] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:49:46 Is it just in how it defines the printout of the form? 14:50:03 BountyX [~erhan@212.175.106.217] has joined #lisp 14:50:15 vaaal: I never said that, but it's right. 14:50:21 for example (setf Array (make-array 3 :fill-pointer 0)), then (vector-push '1 a), then (setf Array (remove '1 a))---> now i can't use vector-push anymore. 14:50:30 yes i know you never said that, i was asking... 14:50:35 vaaal: that is, depending on what you mean by "the right way", of course. 14:50:44 yep 14:50:46 remove always works perfectly right. 14:50:52 (in a conforming implementation). 14:51:05 clhs remove 14:51:05 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_rm.htm 14:51:05 pjb, could you explain the behaviour of remove in the situation above? 14:51:13 ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has joined #lisp 14:51:14 No, but clhs can. 14:51:16 clhs remove 14:51:16 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_rm.htm 14:51:18 s:) 14:53:05 phax [~phax@adsl-68-73-148-217.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:05 -!- phax [~phax@adsl-68-73-148-217.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net] has quit [Changing host] 14:53:05 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 14:53:17 Guest29051 [~cmsimon@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:43 vaaal: in summary: remove doesn't modify its argument (just like a ton of other functions in CL). 14:54:29 yes, i know 14:54:39 but as you can see i did (Setf Array (remove '1 array)) 14:55:11 and then he doesn't work like an array with fill pointer anymore. 14:55:34 vaaal: that's because remove doesn't create an array with fill pointer. 14:55:43 yes, now i've understand that :) 14:55:49 so replace could be a good solution? 14:55:53 In any case, it creates a different array with the exact number of elements, a fill pointer wouldn't be too useful there. 14:55:58 vaaal: No. 14:56:09 vaaal: replace would be useful in implementing the function you want. 14:56:14 vaaal: So, what was the problem with swap and pop? 14:56:24 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-69.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:56:34 -!- beach` is now known as beach 14:56:36 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-148-107.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:43 Zhivago: order matters. 14:57:07 Zhivago, first i search for a simpler solution. 14:57:26 swap and pop is pretty much as simple as it gets. 14:57:26 You could use a transform array. 14:57:39 -!- Guest29051 [~cmsimon@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:57:40 no i can't change the type of array 14:57:43 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:57:56 Another array to tell you which index to look up. 14:58:06 Why are you using an array, btw? 14:58:25 because i feel pretty confortable with it, why? 14:58:34 maybe you'd be better served with a list. 14:58:35 It would be easier to delete random elements from a list... 14:58:36 It seems like a poor data structure for this problem. 14:58:48 You don't seem that comfortable with lisp arrays. 14:58:49 So I was wondering if you had a sensible reason, but you don't seem to. 14:59:03 when i start to work about this project, i though about using list or vector 14:59:11 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-181-173.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Offline] 14:59:21 mmm 14:59:24 array are faster 14:59:36 Not for deleting random elements. 14:59:41 what are you using it for? 14:59:49 vaaal: that's too broad a statement 14:59:49 isn't just a program for deleting random elements, you know 15:00:02 Then describe the problem you're solving. 15:00:03 trees seem optimal for this and there are some good implementations 15:00:29 oGMo: eh? 15:00:42 the problem is to remove an element for an array with fill-pointer. 15:00:51 vaaal: deleting an element in the middle of an array is much much slower than doing the same in the middle of alist. 15:00:52 order matters + random insert/delete 15:00:53 vaaal: No. That's a technique. 15:01:02 no, that's a problem. 15:01:08 vaaal: you don't seem to know arrays... 15:01:09 if i've a problem with it, it's a problem. 15:01:10 Well, if you can't describe the actual problem ... 15:01:58 vaaal: I'm sorry that I can't design a fork to help with your problem of stabbing yourself in the eye. 15:02:23 willian [~god@1.80.35.119] has joined #lisp 15:02:36 Sure you can, you're just being mean. 15:02:42 vaaal: people wonder what you are trying to /really/ do. if you tell people that, you may get great design suggestions for CL in particular (which may be very different from, say, Java or C). 15:02:47 -!- aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:02:50 Start by making the fork long enough to reach the center of the brain. 15:02:51 Hello? 15:02:53 oGMo: if you wanted to go all data structury on the problem, a hash table of key -> linked list nodes would work better so far. 15:03:00 vervic [~vervic@46-220-20-241.dyn.orange.at] has joined #lisp 15:03:16 willian: What's up? 15:03:22 pkhuong, yes, it is 15:03:36 pkhuong: i didn't see anything about key/value, but perhaps 15:04:01 oGMo: there's no key-value in sight. 15:04:12 bobbysmith007: did you write that just for kushal? 15:04:30 well with no real definition of the problem here *shrug* 15:05:21 -!- vaaal [~vaaal@net-2-40-115-96.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:05:42 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-207-189.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 15:06:02 oGMo: but we do have operations: push, delete and we have to preserve the order of pushed elements. 15:07:08 ah, push 15:07:14 should have just used a list ;P 15:07:21 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:09:21 vaaal [~vaaal@net-93-144-201-67.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #lisp 15:09:22 -!- tcr1 is now known as tcr 15:09:25 so 15:09:30 what was we saying? 15:09:39 vaaal: use the logs. 15:09:42 That you are too stupid to describe the actual problem, so we can't help you. 15:09:49 vaaal: type /topic RET and see where the logs are. 15:10:14 vaaal: well, logs are not in the topic anymore. Use google: log irc lisp 15:12:19 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-131-9.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 15:13:10 Zhivago, maybe you can't understand that i WON'T to describe to you my project (this is what are you asking, about 10 time). 15:13:24 See above. 15:13:33 yes i know 15:13:36 you call it problem. 15:13:42 bat you are asking for project. 15:13:43 moshee [~moshee@unaffiliated/moshee] has joined #lisp 15:13:46 No. I just describe the consequences. 15:13:57 Zhivago 15:14:02 -!- cfy__ [~cfy@123.158.247.2] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:14:12 you are assuming that i can change all my project, so change all the array into list 15:14:16 just for make a remove? 15:14:17 are you idiot? 15:14:28 Where did I assume that? 15:14:35 *jdz* gets the popcorn 15:14:40 lol 15:14:47 vaaal: tough luck. Maybe you can manage to get help on your terms by paying for it. 15:14:58 -!- moshee [~moshee@unaffiliated/moshee] has left #lisp 15:15:03 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.241] has joined #lisp 15:15:04 cfy__ [~cfy@123.158.247.2] has joined #lisp 15:15:07 Where's all the love this morning? (Good morning, all.) 15:15:07 i've no terms 15:15:54 As it is, you were both given several ways to solve your immediate goal and a lot of hints that this immediate goal is the consequence of a design that could be improved. 15:16:17 pkhuong, i know, but i can't understand why 15:16:34 -!- willian [~god@1.80.35.119] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:16:38 when i ask for a single thing, you keep asking about a lot of stuff that doens't matter with my problem. 15:16:39 And frankly, if using an array instead of a list means you have to change a lot of code, that's another sign of bad design. 15:17:04 Really. 15:17:36 vaaal: you think it doesn't matter. You'd have to pay me (a lot) to willingly be myopic. 15:17:58 cmsimon_ [~cmsimon@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:17 ChibaPet: <3 15:18:26 ChibaPet: Have some love 15:18:34 Thank you. 15:18:41 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.35.97] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:18:43 kslt1` [~user@netblock-208-127-156-174.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 15:19:53 vaaal, to extract the most value from the pulsing brains here, be totally open to hearing what's being said. In this case, summarize your design that makes it hard to make that change, and I bet someone will have input that'll make your design better. 15:20:25 I think the design is some sort of dark secret 15:20:31 the next FaceTwit or whatever 15:20:44 Social is cooked. 15:20:53 -!- BountyX [~erhan@212.175.106.217] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:20:57 I expect that the next wave is in anti-social. 15:21:07 everything at an abstraction level higher than "a vector that I push to and remove from" is a trade secret. 15:21:21 ChibaPet, it seems to me like i went to mechanic because i want a change of oil, and it says me that i've to change the whole car. Maybe my car is ugly and old, maybe i really should change it, but now i want just change the oil. 15:21:35 i just thought this would be relevant: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2011/7/25/ 15:21:43 vaaal, you're not going to find mechanics here - you're going to find designers 15:21:49 -!- vervic [~vervic@46-220-20-241.dyn.orange.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:22:18 It's more like you complained to the mechanic that the bonnet was getting scratched when you were driving into trees. 15:22:24 hehe 15:22:28 And the mechanic asked you "Why are you driving into trees?" 15:22:30 Zhivago re: anti-social: agreed 15:22:39 And you said "That's a secret! Just tell me the answer!" 15:22:42 yep, maybe i've some reason to driving into tree 15:22:54 And maybe it's a bloody stupid reason. 15:22:58 -!- DrForr [~jgoff@li165-209.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:22:59 lol 15:23:01 ok zhivago 15:23:02 If you don't say, we can't help more than we have. 15:23:08 mmm 15:23:10 ok 15:23:11 vaaal: and maybe you're just using the wrong tool, and there's a simpler way. 15:23:15 So, stop whining like a schoolgirl and get on with it. 15:23:21 so 15:23:22 -!- koisoke [xef4@epilogue.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:23:28 i'm programmin a neural network 15:23:28 vaaal: This design has been so hyped, it can't possibly live up to my expectations 15:23:34 haha 15:23:38 and 15:23:40 milanj [~milanj_@109-93-62-105.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 15:23:44 DrForr [~jgoff@li165-209.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 15:23:45 (let me take the right words) 15:23:46 mmm 15:23:50 vaaal, seriously, consider this: you're saying that a data structure change would be painful. From my noobish perspective, that makes me think that too much of your system gets its hands into the guts of your data too directly. 15:24:10 i'm programming it in a NON functional style 15:24:18 i know it is not the best 15:24:19 Doesn't matter. 15:24:20 koisoke [xef4@epilogue.org] has joined #lisp 15:24:21 Sounds dysfunctional. 15:24:33 yep, i know, but it seems to me the best way, cause 15:24:36 penryu [~tanuki@unaffiliated/penryu] has joined #lisp 15:24:51 all the neuron (the are a class) has an ARRAY (HERE WE ARE) 15:24:56 The issue in question is even more relevant to non-functional design. You want to gate your access to your data to better control change. 15:25:14 yep 15:25:16 If it's a neural net, why do you care about the order of the connections? 15:25:16 but 15:25:25 well 15:25:37 thing about a first input layer of 3 neuron 15:25:38 1 2 3 15:25:46 and a second hidden layer, 4 5 6 15:26:05 the array is organized in this way 15:26:16 the array specific the Backwards connection of any neuron 15:26:37 so in a net when layer 1 and hidden layer is completely connected each other 15:26:48 (1 is connected with 4 5 6, 2 with 4 5 6 ecc.) 15:27:27 the backwards connection of 4 are ((neuron1 weight)(neuron2 weight) (neuron3 weight)) 15:27:40 THIS could be done also with a list, but why don't use an array? 15:27:53 Why do you care about the order of those? 15:28:13 of the backward connection? 15:28:18 Sure. 15:28:49 if the user want to change the weight, it give a pattern of weight 15:28:58 So, why do you care about the order of those? 15:29:32 this pattern must to be in order, to specific that the first value of the weight pattern as to be the weight of 4 - 1 connection, the second the 4 - 2 connection 15:29:35 why you keep asking? 15:29:44 Because you don't answer. 15:29:46 i really can't understand why you are so mean. 15:29:50 if you WAIT 15:29:56 vaaal - he's suggesting that the order doesn't matter 15:30:07 i know what he's suggesting. 15:30:16 i was explain why, for me, order DOES matter. 15:30:24 So, if that order matters, how can you delete an entry? 15:30:40 vaaal - I see people being utter shits in IRC all the time, and this doesn't strike me as being that - try to extract the value here and you'll come out ahead 15:31:00 Won't that disrupt your topology? 15:31:07 mmm 15:31:20 stokki [598f25a2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.143.37.162] has joined #lisp 15:31:25 ChibaPet, you write pretty complicated to me ^^ Use simpler words please :-\ 15:31:34 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl15-228-94.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 15:31:39 vaaal: get a dictionary. I hear google is free. 15:31:42 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl15-228-94.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 15:31:42 vaaal: He's saying that you're whining and should shut up and answer the questions. 15:31:59 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl15-228-94.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 15:32:09 Well, what Zhivago said is about right. Accept the help without complaint. :) 15:32:38 Zhivago, the order matter, but i would anyway to remove a entry. 15:32:55 why i can't? 15:33:26 Didn't you say that you're using the order to determine which neuron in the previous layer you're connecting with? 15:33:29 maybe use jagged vectors? 15:33:32 vaaal: because if you remove an entry the relationship between neuron order and weight order isn't preserved. 15:33:38 mmm 15:33:38 or actually nested lists? 15:34:09 or write an abstraction so your code isn't intimately tied to the representation itself? 15:34:10 if a have this order: 1 2 3 4 5 6 and i remove the 4, the order doesn't matter? 15:34:21 It depends on what you're using that ordering for. 15:34:29 yes, the topology change, but that isn't a problem 15:34:45 because in teh backward connection - array the other connection remeain the same in the same order. 15:34:47 vaaal: you told us that you need to preserve order because the user can specify new weights. What happens when the user specifies a weight and you've removed a neuron? 15:34:57 In which case, why not just use swap and pop and update the topology to match? 15:34:59 He can't. 15:35:03 weirdo: an unrolled compiled expression, along with its gradient operator ;) 15:35:15 Zhivago, as i sayd, i could, i was just searching for a simpler solution. 15:35:17 pkhuong, what 15:35:17 :) 15:35:45 vaaal: That's the sweet-spot given your datatype choice. 15:35:55 realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:02 wait, i've to search on google. 15:36:03 vaaal: so, one you start removing/popping elements, order doesn't matter (the user can't specify new weights). 15:36:08 Good luck. :) 15:36:27 pkhoung, maybe i've misunderstanding somethings. 15:36:32 *i'm 15:37:00 if i've a connection like 4->1 4->2 4->3 15:37:01 this is weird, in polish, the imaginary part of the complex number is called the "delusional" part 15:37:07 and the user delete the 4->2 connection 15:37:21 silenius [~silenus@f116051.upc-f.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 15:37:24 -!- penryu [~tanuki@unaffiliated/penryu] has left #lisp 15:37:24 then, when i want to change the weight with a pattenr for 4->1 and 4->3 15:37:26 weirdo: compiling a neural net to a flat expression graph would be... interesting (: 15:37:31 why the ordenr should not matter? 15:37:48 pkhuong, how can graph be flat? :) 15:37:56 pkh: I believe he was using the order to specify the target in the previous layer. 15:38:07 vaaal: so the user has to keep track of which connections have been removed as well? 15:38:14 pkh: e.g., slot 2 is the weight for neuron 2, up one. 15:38:22 pkhuong, yes. 15:38:45 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483B75E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:38:45 aren't neural nets obsolete? 15:38:45 Or maybe I'm just confused. 15:38:57 if he want to give a precise number of weight, he have to. 15:38:57 Zhivago: I think he said it's a sorted vector of (neuron . weight), sorted by neuron index. 15:39:12 Did you discover a reason for the sorting yet? 15:39:19 yes, pkhuong, seems to me you are right. 15:39:59 Zhivago: the weight update interface... which sounds like a mess. 15:40:16 -!- nauar [~kvirc@70.Red-213-4-38.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:40:19 it's not a mess. 15:40:19 Yuuhi [benni@p5483B75E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:40:22 it's pretty simple. 15:40:26 remember, you saw it on #lisp first: http://www.cafepress.com/nikodemus 15:40:47 vaaal: As a software developer, there is one extremely important thing to understand. 15:40:48 :) 15:40:51 weirdo: without any control flow. 15:40:54 vaaal: And that is, that you are stupid. 15:41:07 why, zhivago? 15:41:10 vaaal: Remember this and compensate for it. 15:41:12 pkhuong, call/cc? :) 15:41:17 vaaal: Everyone is stupid. 15:41:18 Nikodemus, nice. :) 15:41:28 pkhuong, provided of course that there is no mutation 15:41:33 vaaal: Some people don't realise it, and they make huge messes. 15:41:34 so you are stupid too 15:41:37 and means. 15:41:39 *mean 15:41:58 maybe he's just a beginning programmer 15:41:58 vaaal: So, when you do something ask yourself "Is this another one of my stupid ideas?" 15:42:13 vaaal: Yes, but I know that I am stupid and I take extensive countermeasures. 15:42:18 zhivago, can i tell fuck you or i will banned? 15:42:24 vaaal: You will be banned. 15:42:26 vaaal: Would you like to be banned? 15:42:31 ... 15:42:41 vaaal, far better not to - if you stick around and listen you'll learn good things here 15:42:43 nikodemus: for what it's worth, that price is pretty steep for a t-shirt. If it's part of a donation system, it would be good to know. 15:42:44 vaaal: Anyhow, it sounds like you're too stupid to realize that you're stupid, do you're going to stay that way. :) 15:42:55 vaaal, that was low 15:43:13 Xach, Zhivago doesn't deserve ban, right? 15:43:21 Xach: it is, just not written in bold. 15:43:44 vaaal: For giving you kindly and valuable advice that you seem in great need of? :) 15:43:48 mmm 15:43:55 vaaal: one easy way to avoid getting into an unpleasant conversation with Zhivago is to not get into any conversation with Zhivago. 15:44:06 ehu [~ehuels@109.32.141.186] has joined #lisp 15:44:10 vaaal: here's why the interface is strange: the user has to remember the set of non-deleted connections to update weights. 15:44:18 Xach: yeah, i'll add a note to that effect 15:44:35 nikodemus: I'd hope 50% or more goes to you 15:44:35 I can't puth with mean people that mock you and put a stupid smile. 15:44:54 pkhuong, sure it has to. 15:45:03 vaaal, it's baptism by fire 15:45:04 :) 15:45:19 i think that is really unlikeable, but your channel your rule. 15:45:34 zhivago break my balls asking about my program 15:45:39 now i describe it to him 15:45:44 and he start to mock 15:45:51 vaaal: Where did I mock you? 15:45:57 vaaal, how about you stop whining and fix your program not to be a useless mess? 15:45:58 vaaal, you'll find that technical communities are filled with people with abrupt manner and a lack of patience for folks who are doing things in an suboptimal way but are unwilling to change - some places the folks doing that are pricks and haven't earned the right - some places they're good and you should take the advice however offered 15:45:58 Zhivago, really, stop it. 15:46:13 vaaal: Stop what? 15:46:29 vaaal, Zhivago: please quarrel elsewhere 15:46:33 vaaal - strong suggestion, stop any discussion right now that's talking ABOUT the discussion, and JUST talk about your code 15:46:58 Zhivago hasn't giving advice about the code. 15:47:05 Maybe he can't understand the code, just says i'm stupid. 15:47:14 and put a nice smile in the end of sentence. 15:47:19 giving advice is different than fixing it for you 15:47:21 vaaal, read my last line 15:47:21 kpreid [~kpreid@216.239.45.20] has joined #lisp 15:47:26 (incf fe[nl]ix) 15:47:38 i don't want that you fix my code for me -.- 15:47:41 oooh, fe[nl]ix just got bigger 15:47:52 HG` [~HG@p579F7D90.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:47:55 He's like Torgo's knee. 15:47:58 vaaal: You're also a liar. 15:48:11 Zhivago, ask for help isn't ask for fixing. 15:48:26 can you undestdant this? 15:48:32 vaaal: I didn't say that it was -- I suggest that you re-read what I did say. 15:48:47 let's just call a time-out. 15:48:49 Why am i a liAR? 15:48:56 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Torgo_knees.jpg 15:48:59 please take this elsewhere. 15:49:06 vaaal: Because you lied -- I gave you advice about the code. 15:49:06 Everyone please contemplate that image for a couple minutes. 15:49:34 ok 15:49:38 thank you zhivago 15:49:43 you are so helpful. 15:49:46 You are welcome. 15:50:22 survery [~thomas@dslb-178-007-120-202.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:50:28 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gw.maxisat.fi] has quit [Quit: Byes!] 15:50:30 since i'm a really stupid guy 15:50:35 can you please repeat the suggestion about my code? 15:50:38 -!- survery [~thomas@dslb-178-007-120-202.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 15:50:54 brandwe [~brandwe@c-71-227-176-38.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:51:08 vaaal: see http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/2011-08/ 15:51:09 vaaal: Well, the suggestion remains that if you want to use a vector with a fill pointer, then swap and pop is going to give you the simplest approach with the least overhead. 15:51:17 so Zhivago 15:51:27 you make me to explain ALL my project and THIS is your suggestion? 15:51:29 vaaal: A more fundamental issue is what pkhuong is talking about, which is where you require the user to track the ordering. 15:51:38 vaaal: Yes. 15:51:44 and i'm stupid? 15:51:44 so 15:51:45 first 15:51:53 i was spend like 30 minute to say to you 15:51:56 vaaal: I don't care. 15:52:00 that my project wasn't imporant with the problem 15:52:08 and you say "NO, TELL ME THE PROBLEM" 15:52:13 now i explain the code to you 15:52:18 and you says to me the same solutioN? 15:52:18 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 15:52:20 are you idiot? 15:52:28 -!- vaaal [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has been kicked from #lisp by Xach (Come back some other time.) 15:52:32 vaaal [~vaaal@net-93-144-201-67.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #lisp 15:52:40 -!- Xach has set mode +b *!*vaaal@*.cust.dsl.teletu.it 15:52:43 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 15:52:55 well, that was predictable. 15:53:35 So, how about those Torgo knees? 15:53:41 sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 15:53:49 looks like my ass.... 15:53:53 lol 15:55:20 Nikodemus, if you can offer a truly large coffee mug I'll buy one. Ideally it'll have the warning label. 15:55:27 Oooo, I'll ask my question again. Not really for any problem, but is the difference between SB-IMPL::BACKQ-LIST and LIST for purposes of print only? 15:56:03 herbieB: yes. 15:56:15 nauar [~kvirc@70.Red-213-4-38.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:56:22 -!- cfy__ [~cfy@123.158.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:56:31 Rock on 15:57:24 -!- genieliu [~genieliu@59.78.62.120] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:58:48 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:58:49 sacho [~sacho@90.154.218.28] has joined #lisp 16:02:07 Xach: added note re. 50% markup to the storefront 16:02:39 confab_ [~ubuntu@c-24-10-60-185.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:54 cool, thanks for clarifying 16:05:32 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 16:05:51 -!- vaaal [~vaaal@net-93-144-201-67.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:06:31 -!- confab_ is now known as confab 16:06:50 BountyX [~erhan@212.175.106.183] has joined #lisp 16:11:00 rakete` [~user@static.228.2.63.178.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lisp 16:11:42 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:11:49 upwardindex [~upwardind@modemcable113.205-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:12:22 -!- e-user [~e-user@nat/nokia/x-pfwbzeachjdyjhnh] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:12:27 -!- guther [~guther@newshell1.bshellz.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:12:29 Is it still required to manually enable threading for SBCL when compiling for darwin? 16:12:48 -!- rootzlevel [~hpd@static.6.236.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:13:16 -!- cYmen [~cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:13:16 -!- ocharles [u411@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vcsbjiopufaoljmn] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:13:22 upwardindex: yes. 16:13:31 guther [~guther@newshell1.bshellz.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:33 rootzlevel [~hpd@static.6.236.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lisp 16:13:38 pkhuong: thanks! 16:13:43 mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has joined #lisp 16:13:50 cYmen [~cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has joined #lisp 16:13:51 is there anything wrong in this expression: (setf sql (format nil "select name from rh_user where user_id='~a'" (write-to-string user_id))) 16:14:09 kushal: yes. 16:14:18 Xach, and that is ? 16:14:28 kushal: Why do you use write-to-string? 16:14:43 -!- BountyX [~erhan@212.175.106.183] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:14:59 user_id is an integer, I guess I can directly use ~d 16:15:09 -!- mgr [~mgr@mail.phinn.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:15:20 ChibaPet: i added large versions of the mugs -- don't know if they're big enough for you, though 16:15:25 -!- rakete [~user@static.228.2.63.178.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:15:41 Xach, the string I am getting: slctnafovwhe user_id=8149"' 16:15:46 yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 16:16:13 nikodemus, let me look - I'd like to match a mug I have at home. 16:16:16 (and thank you) 16:16:30 kushal: Where are you getting that string? 16:16:48 -!- _root_ [~Scalable@li252-14.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:16:55 Xach, I am returning sql at the end of the function 16:17:10 -!- wivlaro [~bill@craftsmanltd.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:17:17 actually getting the json equivalent of that string 16:17:34 drake01 [~drake01@115.246.162.149] has joined #lisp 16:17:45 wivlaro [~bill@craftsmanltd.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:18:28 kushal: What you described sounds very odd. Maybe you could paste the function and a transcript of its use. 16:18:51 Xach, yes, I am trying out one more , will paste after that 16:19:21 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 16:19:22 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.32.141.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:19:34 -!- Xach has set mode -bbbb *!*g@*.lsanca.fios.verizon.net *!*451dd617@*.69.29.214.23 *!*john@*.202.34.95.customer.cdi.no *!*vaaal@*.cust.dsl.teletu.it 16:19:41 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:19:46 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 16:20:08 -!- cmsimon_ is now known as scrimohsin 16:20:16 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:20:16 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 16:21:28 In the mean time, I wrote a vector-delete functions that modifies vectors with fill pointers... http://paste.lisp.org/display/123759 16:21:28 -!- upwardindex [~upwardind@modemcable113.205-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:21:38 But since the newbie of course is already gone... 16:21:41 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 16:21:51 nice! 16:21:53 hah 16:21:54 upwardindex [~upwardind@modemcable113.205-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:22:31 Xach, my fault 16:22:57 _root_ [~Scalable@li252-14.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 16:24:09 -!- drake01 [~drake01@115.246.162.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:24:59 vaaal [~vaaal@net-93-144-201-67.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #lisp 16:25:28 hi 16:25:37 kushal: What was it? 16:25:53 ocharles [~u411@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jbvqncrdpsnpyoqm] has joined #lisp 16:26:14 mgr [~mgr@mail.phinn.de] has joined #lisp 16:27:01 peterhil` [~peterhil@gw.maxisat.fi] has joined #lisp 16:28:26 vervic [~vervic@091-141-041-084.dyn.orange.at] has joined #lisp 16:28:47 -!- vervic [~vervic@091-141-041-084.dyn.orange.at] has quit [Client Quit] 16:29:08 snajper47863 [ZEFIRPL@delta.ds3.agh.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 16:30:00 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.164.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:30:07 -!- ocharles [~u411@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jbvqncrdpsnpyoqm] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:30:24 SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@VEROXITY.ipcolo1.SanFrancisco1.Level3.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:41 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@72.19.53.5] has joined #lisp 16:30:47 -!- vaaal [~vaaal@net-93-144-201-67.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:31:04 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-98-135.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:57 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:32:09 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 16:33:26 ocharles [u411@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lemipxhlalyzanup] has joined #lisp 16:33:26 -!- upwardindex [~upwardind@modemcable113.205-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:35:40 Hi! I have a simple question. What tool do you use for generating documentation of your programs? There is a couple of them: eg. Albert or documentation-template by Weitz, but they seem to be immature and/or are not developed any more. 16:36:00 -!- silenius [~silenus@f116051.upc-f.chello.nl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:37:20 Nikodemus, you spelled Conrad's name wrong on the store front page. Just noticed. 16:37:27 oops 16:37:46 And Zachary's I believe. 16:38:08 ChibaPet: no, that's Mr. Bir's name. 16:38:16 He spells it with an e? 16:38:27 According to http://twitter.com/urbanape 16:38:44 agspathis [~user@ppp-94-64-156-156.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 16:38:55 -!- agspathis [~user@ppp-94-64-156-156.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Client Quit] 16:38:58 Sure enough, okay. Wasn't as sure about that one. 16:39:17 snajper47863: I write it by hand in Emacs. 16:39:31 agspathis [~user@ppp-94-64-156-156.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 16:39:33 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA20AA7.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:39:35 Well, I have emacs tools to help a lot with formatting. 16:40:24 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-207-189.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:41:40 vaaal [~vaaal@net-93-144-201-67.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #lisp 16:41:46 (And randomly, my current mug is slightly over twice the capacity of the large mugs on the page, but I'll schedule a purchase before long to support the cause.) 16:42:29 upwardindex [~upwardind@modemcable113.205-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:42:40 hi 16:43:18 Xach: I see. Usually you don't provide something like online or pdf documentation? 16:43:46 vaaal, I believe this was intended for you: (12:21:28) pjb: In the mean time, I wrote a vector-delete functions that modifies vectors with fill pointers... http://paste.lisp.org/display/123759 16:44:15 pnq [~nick@ACA24030.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 16:44:17 wow 16:44:17 thank you 16:44:40 there is A LOT of code there! 16:44:54 coding is more productive than arguing on the internet. 16:45:07 mmm 16:45:27 Fade: absolutely not! i refuse! argue! ;) 16:45:30 seems to you i wanted to argue ? 16:46:06 vaaal707 [~vaaal@net-93-144-201-67.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #lisp 16:46:10 ops 16:47:59 vaaal: In any case, I don't see why you need to delete a single link from a neural net... You may want to optimize out a neural net, by removing after learning ALL the links with too small weights, but this is better done by creating a new optimized neural network than by modifying the learning one. 16:47:59 -!- upwardindex [~upwardind@modemcable113.205-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:48:35 pjb, if the user connect n1 and n2 for mistake 16:48:42 maybe he would delete the connection 16:48:45 or am i wrong? 16:48:56 (neuron1 and neuron2) 16:49:51 -!- vaaal [~vaaal@net-93-144-201-67.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:50:18 ehi= 16:50:18 ? 16:50:33 vaaal707: Well, I don't tend to connect or disconnect neurons individually in brains... Usually it's done automatically by learning. 16:50:53 yes 16:50:54 but 16:51:11 in some net 16:51:11 If you need to do connections one by one, then you should probably use another data structure than an array. 16:51:19 mmm 16:51:24 let me explain 16:51:32 or it seems i don't know how neural net works 16:51:47 There are a lot of books about them... 16:52:02 in some net, like McCulloch, the connection are made between a few neuron 16:52:08 for simulating and, or xor port etc. 16:52:22 they are really simple net, but why don't let the user create that? 16:52:23 jdz [~jdz@host190-69-dynamic.54-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:52:25 xor ports are not neural networks. You don't have xor ports in your brain. 16:52:31 ... 16:52:37 -!- cYmen [~cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:52:39 con can simulate xor port in a neural network. 16:52:45 this is a fact. 16:52:51 vaaal707: to begin with, if you don't have at least one million neurons, don't bother. 16:53:01 what are you tolking about? 16:53:05 *talking about? 16:53:15 well, that didn't take long. 16:53:19 vaaal: He's probably mocking you. 16:53:36 i don't understan why. 16:53:37 Your brains has 100,000,000,000 neurons. 16:53:44 i know, pjb, i'm a psychologist. 16:54:11 why are you mocking my? Is mine a bad behaviour? 16:54:14 i really can't understand. 16:54:37 I'm not mocking. I'm saying that hooking neurons by hand is a dead end. You need a learning algorith that does it automatically. 16:54:50 Pjb, why are you supposing i don't know this stuff? 16:54:56 can you please let me explain the whole thing? 16:55:04 Go ahead. 16:55:13 i'm saying that IF the user WANT to connect manually by hand, what's the problem? 16:55:26 in some case, like mccullach networks, that could be good and simple. 16:55:38 i give to the user the option to create automatically a layer 16:55:47 and to connect the layer as he want. 16:55:51 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:56:00 This is already coding. 16:56:04 So where is the problem here? 16:56:07 i really don't want to flame 16:56:12 but i just can't understand you. 16:56:27 -!- yroeht [yroeht@server5.tonbnc.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:56:41 is this a program for students to explore very small neural networks? 16:56:48 Why small, fade? 16:56:54 you can create a layer made of 100 neurons. 16:57:00 and you can connect all the layer do you want. 16:57:09 upwardindex [~upwardind@modemcable113.205-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:57:29 because there's a natural limit to how much manual networking any user is going to want to do. 16:57:45 i mean, if that's the feature that you want, then, write it. 16:57:45 In any case, order doesn't matter. 16:57:59 fade, why you keep saying it's manual? 16:58:17 Perhaps because of: i'm saying that IF the user WANT to connect manually by hand, what's the problem? 16:58:25 ^^ 16:58:26 ? 16:58:26 MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:58:30 what's the problem? 16:58:34 "manually by hand"= manual. 16:58:40 -!- tfb [~tfb@80.238.0.145] has quit [Quit: sleeping] 16:58:41 he can OR connect the neurons manually OR generate the layer automatically 16:58:45 cYmen [~cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has joined #lisp 16:58:47 what's the problem in that' 16:59:00 maybe there is no problem. 16:59:06 ? 16:59:11 really, i can't understand. 16:59:14 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-tdyfjwvcmjdbxpov] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:59:24 "Generate a layer automatically" means "manually by hand" for you? 16:59:33 the question was whether the approach outlined in your description of what you want is the best one. 16:59:54 -!- literal [hinrik@w.nix.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:00:01 literal [hinrik@w.nix.is] has joined #lisp 17:00:03 is really hard to reach THE BEST ONE approach. 17:00:21 and i'm not a "real" programmer. 17:00:27 i'm just doing my best. 17:00:32 but considering the datastructure you've chosen, pjb has already given you the primitive functions you need to define the feature you're describing, so you can implement it and find out if it's what you expect. 17:00:51 -!- snajper47863 [ZEFIRPL@delta.ds3.agh.edu.pl] has quit [Quit: http://irc2go.com/] 17:00:55 see? no problem! 17:00:56 :) 17:01:01 tcr [~tcr@77-58-246-74.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:01:01 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 17:01:01 xan_ [~xan@66.201.52.88] has joined #lisp 17:01:03 uhm. 17:01:06 -!- tcr [~tcr@77-58-246-74.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 17:01:14 yes but seems to me we wasn't talking about that anymore. 17:01:17 anyway, as you want. 17:01:20 no problem. 17:01:49 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp 17:01:52 well, at least you have the tools to implement it and try it out. 17:03:00 if you think there is a problem with my design, please tell me. 17:03:23 i've spend just 1 day programming, so if there is a big mistake i would to fix it now, not in a month. 17:04:31 yroeht [yroeht@server5.tonbnc.fr] has joined #lisp 17:04:31 -!- upwardindex [~upwardind@modemcable113.205-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:04:35 -!- brandwe [~brandwe@c-71-227-176-38.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:05:11 i think it would be valuable for you to implement it how you think it should be, and find out if your expectations meet the reality. 17:05:31 at minimum, it will teach you a lot about the problem you're solving. 17:05:44 so i think i'm doing it the right way 17:06:08 let us know how it goes. 17:06:26 i've already tested with an mcculloch net. 17:06:36 really easy to creaty, really easy to make it works. 17:06:37 josemanuel [~josemanue@143.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:07:41 -!- trigen [c1aca602@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.172.166.2] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:07:48 *create. 17:09:40 -!- zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has quit [Quit: Be back later] 17:12:52 vaaal707: if you're not a programmer, why don't you use a neural network toolbox? There already exist several program that let you create neural networks in various configurations and experiment with them, with no programming. 17:13:44 upwardindex [~upwardind@modemcable113.205-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:14:46 pjb: NIH is a strong feeling 17:14:46 -!- upwardindex [~upwardind@modemcable113.205-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:15:17 drdo, not a bad thing, really 17:15:31 NIH will bring down empires. 17:15:32 see M$ 17:15:45 it's a learning experience 17:16:18 A lot of undesirable things are learning experiences. 17:16:40 specially those where the lesson is "I shouldn't do that again." 17:16:59 oh, come on. writing a neural net would be whole loads of fun for me 17:17:08 maybe not for vaaal707 who doesn't know what a graph is... 17:17:19 ouch 17:17:55 lets not light up that particular fire again, shall we? 17:18:01 ok 17:18:01 vaaal [~vaaal@net-93-144-193-220.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #lisp 17:18:08 sorry 17:18:14 pretty sure he knows what a graph is, just not by that name 17:18:27 -!- vaaal707 [~vaaal@net-93-144-201-67.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:18:38 pjb, for answer your question, it funnier to program it. 17:18:44 -!- paradoja [~paradoja@acceso-cmp174-200.lpa.idec.net] has quit [Quit: Bye] 17:18:58 hysterical by this point 17:19:06 ? 17:19:27 Just teasing. I think you meant to say "more fun" which is different from "funnier", which itself means "funny". 17:19:28 DelPuerto [~youguy@81.pool85-51-145.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 17:19:54 more fun, yes 17:19:57 sorry 17:20:03 The humor comes from the notion that it might have been fun to start, but by this point it's become a "hysterical" source of stress. 17:20:30 (Because "hysterical" can be used both to denote extreme humor or extreme stress.) 17:20:59 mmm 17:21:20 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.241] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:21:24 yep, until i come here, it's pretty funny ^^ 17:23:29 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA24030.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:24:19 upwardindex [~upwardind@modemcable113.205-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:26:09 -!- DelPuerto [~youguy@81.pool85-51-145.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:28:43 DelPuerto [~youguy@81.pool85-51-145.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 17:29:15 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-185-89.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:31:35 -!- DelPuerto [~youguy@81.pool85-51-145.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Client Quit] 17:31:35 -!- upwardindex [~upwardind@modemcable113.205-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:32:18 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:32:55 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 17:33:53 (loop for x in my-list collect (x / someinteger)) : is there any 17:33:53 other way other than using format that i could collect the results the 17:33:53 results as floats with say y number of decimal places? 17:34:44 peearr [~aaron@159.153.4.51] has joined #lisp 17:34:49 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@143.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 17:34:54 nicdev: (mapcar (lambda (x) (/ x some-int)) my-list) 17:34:56 -!- xan_ [~xan@66.201.52.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:35:33 nicdev: As for results as floats, isn't (/ 1 2) a float? .5 is a printing concept, right? 17:35:51 (/ 1 2) is not a float 17:36:04 It's a ratio, that's true 17:36:29 nicdev: What do you want to do? 17:37:26 Ah, (mapcar (lambda (x) (float (/ x some-int))) my-list) 17:38:09 vaaal789 [~vaaal@net-93-144-193-220.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #lisp 17:38:24 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 17:38:59 -!- vaaal [~vaaal@net-93-144-193-220.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:39:12 drdo: herbieB i basicall have a long list of integers that i have 17:39:12 to devide by another constant integer and i only care about the answers 17:39:12 to 3 decimal places 17:39:35 Why not use format? 17:40:13 nicdev: just use floats and only print 3 decimal places when you need to print them 17:40:34 herbieB: that is what i am using i was just wondering if there is 17:40:34 any other option... 17:40:59 upwardindex [~upwardind@modemcable113.205-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:40:59 drdo: will do that, thanks 17:41:09 In cl-gtk2, is it possible to create a subclass ofo tree-view, for example? 17:42:03 -!- vaaal789 [~vaaal@net-93-144-193-220.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Client Quit] 17:42:51 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:43:04 is tree-view a class? 17:44:18 -!- sacho [~sacho@90.154.218.28] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:44:18 -!- upwardindex [~upwardind@modemcable113.205-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:44:42 cl-gtk2 uses a gobject metaclass and you have to contend with some glib-isms 17:45:36 Fade: Yes. But I don't know CLOS too much and I keep geting metaclass erros. 17:45:46 i'm not entirely sure you can actually make a non-wrappered class 17:45:54 oGMo: Hum. 17:46:11 Maybe I should just make new classes with objects inside slots. 17:46:31 Hello, Dragons! 17:46:43 didi: that's what i do .. may not be ideal, but 17:47:14 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 17:48:28 oGMo: That's fine. Thanks. 17:48:39 -!- peearr [~aaron@159.153.4.51] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:52:58 -!- Davidbrcz_ [~david@ANantes-151-1-189-112.w2-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:53:38 upwardindex [~upwardind@modemcable113.205-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:55:43 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:59:38 pnq [~nick@AC839945.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 18:00:33 oGMo: You gave me ideas and I tried this: (defclass foo (gtk:tree-view) () (:metaclass gobject:gobject-class)) 18:00:44 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:00:47 I confess that I don't know much what I'm doing but it worked. 18:01:53 dammit, now i'm sorry i got an android instead of an iphone... :P http://www.cafepress.com/nikodemus.560963435 18:02:01 didi: that will work but you may want to check out the docs on it .. http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-gtk2/doc/gobject/index.html 18:02:11 -!- MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:02:24 by "work" i mean "not immediately error" ;) 18:02:38 Hehe. 18:03:05 24 bucks for a mug? 18:03:11 i guess prices are targeted at americans 18:03:18 cause it's like, ~70 zotys 18:03:24 nikodemus: on an iphone, that logo is supremely ironic. 18:03:34 exactly :) 18:04:15 MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:04:17 -!- MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:04:39 weirdo: ~12 bucks for a mug and ~12bucks for SBCL development. read the notice on the storefront 18:04:46 oh 18:05:08 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-043.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:05:19 Now I've confused myself. .2d0 is not exactly 1/5 yet I can't figure out how to get FORMAT to print as a decimal its actual value. 18:05:56 peearr [~aaron@159.153.4.51] has joined #lisp 18:06:05 I.e. (format t "~,100f" .2) just prints 0.2000... with a bunch of zeros. 18:07:25 rfg [~rfg@dsl78-143-206-87.in-addr.fast.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:07:40 nikodemus: seems like if you're going to sell the mug you should patch SBCL so sbcl-p is actually a function. 18:08:31 -!- xcv [~xcv@hermes.logmenn.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:08:56 hah, true 18:09:00 MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:09:16 hm, alexandria would be a sneaky place to put it... 18:09:24 (defun sbcl-p () (find :sbcl *features*)) 18:10:06 gigamonkey: .2d0 will round exactly to the same value. Go through rational, perhaps? 18:10:48 (defun sbcl-p () (or (find :sbcl *features*) (error "What! No #lisp help for you!"))) 18:11:18 pkhuong: yeah, rational definitely shows that it's not 1/5 but I'm too dumb/lazy to convert that to a decimal representation myself. 18:11:31 :D 18:12:03 -!- upwardindex [~upwardind@modemcable113.205-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: upwardindex] 18:14:00 zfx [~zfx@host86-166-117-115.range86-166.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:14:00 -!- zfx [~zfx@host86-166-117-115.range86-166.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 18:14:00 zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 18:14:15 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@65.49.112.78.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:14:34 -!- pnq [~nick@AC839945.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:15:01 nikodemus: if your going to sell the mug will it come in "plushy" format? 18:16:45 PokeTron [~PokeTron@unaffiliated/poketron] has joined #lisp 18:17:17 -!- PokeTron [~PokeTron@unaffiliated/poketron] has left #lisp 18:18:18 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181056239.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:18:56 -!- _3b [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:19:03 _3b [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:19:12 nikodemus: Also, is this a joke or a typo, "Save-Lisp-And-Die / SBCL, by Zachery Bir"? 18:19:36 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:19:50 mon_key: neither. 18:21:16 -!- MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:21:41 MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:22:05 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@65.49.112.78.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:43 -!- lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@77.16.33.126.tmi.telenormobil.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:24:10 lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@77.16.33.126.tmi.telenormobil.no] has joined #lisp 18:24:56 Yikes, sorry. TIL (not (every #'(lambda (x) (and (string-equal (person-name x) "Zacharey") (string-equal (pound-lisp-name x) "Xach"))) zachishly-typed)) 18:25:14 -!- agspathis [~user@ppp-94-64-156-156.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:26:14 There's more than one? 18:26:35 I was pretty bummed when I found out there's a Lisp nerd in new england who goes by "axch". I thought it *had* to be a typo. 18:26:46 -!- rfg [~rfg@dsl78-143-206-87.in-addr.fast.co.uk] has quit [Quit: rfg] 18:27:09 .... I guess those are the downsides of "Hacks and Glory" 18:28:04 -!- stokki [598f25a2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.143.37.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:29:02 Davidbrcz_ [~david@ANantes-151-1-189-112.w2-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:30:21 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 18:31:34 there are downsides to hacks and glory? 18:32:59 Fade: maybe apropos: is this boilerplate at the bottom of GG search results a new thing or have I been blindly ignoring them: "In response to a complaint we received under the US Digital Millennium Copyright Act, we have removed 1 result(s) from this page. If you wish, you may read the DMCA complaint that caused the removal(s) at ChillingEffects.org." 18:32:59 http://www.google.com/search?q=BMPINFO+program&hl=en&prmd=ivns&ei=X445TtC7KYWTtwem1eT5Ag&start=20&sa=N 18:33:32 -!- MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:33:57 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:34:01 MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:34:05 pnq [~nick@AC821CAA.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 18:34:21 I'm not sure what you're talking about. 18:34:39 I see the post on the search page. 18:35:11 It appears that one of the downsides of "Hacks and Glory" may be that organizations will choose to silence links/refs to ones source code... 18:35:29 the united states is a strange and foreign land. 18:35:47 they've got more lawyers than jackrabbits. 18:35:59 but this is all pretty OT. :) 18:37:54 Fade: ok I'll reel it back in. Does anyone know there is existing lisp for reading windows bmp or OS/2 dib RGB values? 18:38:22 anvandare [~anvandare@78-22-144-33.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 18:38:45 ziga_ [~ziga@89.142.214.229] has joined #lisp 18:39:04 ch-image, maybe. 18:39:05 I don't know, but those formats are pretty raw. It's something like 16 bit values for width and height, then raw pixel data. 18:39:23 I've written a simple bmp header parser but it would be nice to not re-invent something thats allready been done. 18:40:00 I think you might spend more time searching than implementing, in this case. Save some chump the trouble next time by publishing and publicizing your effort. 18:40:07 -!- Davidbrcz_ [~david@ANantes-151-1-189-112.w2-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:40:30 -!- am0c [~am0c@218.51.116.50] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:40:47 Fade: AFAICT ch-image doesn't. Lispbuild SDL has CFFI's but they kinda rely on the enitre SDL stack. 18:41:12 Xach knows way more about this domain than I do. 18:41:16 I'd take his advice. 18:41:23 www.every-lisp-library-ever.org 18:41:32 (no, it's not real :p ) 18:42:13 besides, there's already cliki 18:42:33 anvandare: I've checked that fine resource :) 18:42:34 if image-magick processes bmp, then so should lisp-magick. 18:45:33 Fade: In an ideal world one would avoid the FFI for this -- that way i can pipe the pixel strips arrays through salza, zpng, ch-image, etc. without worrying about divergence of ImageMagick (which is a notoriously moving target) from the FFI :) 18:46:25 DelPuerto [~youguy@163.Red-81-36-9.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:12 Joreji [~thomas@83-096.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:47:52 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-179-133.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:52:58 do it yourself. 18:53:33 having glanced at some documentation on BMP format, it looks like a very simple format. 18:53:37 So in SBCL I evaled: (defmethod foo ((bar baz))) then, I changed my mind and want to eval (defmethod foo ((bar baz) foobar)), but I keep getting an error. Is there a way to eval the new form within the same image? 18:54:08 didi: (fmakunbound 'foo) 18:54:29 Xach: Nice. Thank you. 18:54:38 I often find myself wishing that the specifiers didn't skimp on that missing 'e' in fmakunbound. 18:57:03 slime has a key for that 18:59:13 oGMo: \o/ What is it? 18:59:22 -!- DelPuerto [~youguy@163.Red-81-36-9.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 18:59:35 C-c C-u, if i didn't change it 18:59:47 Nice. 19:00:03 i added makunbound and unintern and might have changed them 19:00:22 (+ Lisp Slime) is the best think ever. 19:01:13 yeah i don't know of anything that compares 19:02:05 (+ lisp slime quicklisp) is nicer :) 19:02:34 mon_key: Oh yes. 19:02:44 littlebobby [~bob@unaffiliated/littlebobby] has joined #lisp 19:03:06 -!- Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:03:55 Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:20 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:05:52 Seriously, the other afternoon was futzing with buildapp and it occurred that I'd forgotten how much of ASDF quicklisp has managed to push under the rug for many operations. How long has it been since Quicklisp alpha first surfaced surely not more than 24 months. 19:09:39 SuChek [~SuChek@62-47-195-225.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 19:09:44 -!- SuChek [~SuChek@62-47-195-225.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Changing host] 19:09:44 SuChek [~SuChek@unaffiliated/suchek] has joined #lisp 19:10:07 mon_key: october of 2010 19:10:37 Davidbrcz_ [~david@ANantes-151-1-189-112.w2-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:11:35 -!- SuChek_ [~SuChek@unaffiliated/suchek] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:14:28 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:15:04 quicklisp really is a great automation for lispers. much preferred over hoping the package was in apt repos or something and manually hunting down source if not. i'm surprised that automation hadn't come up much earlier, were there other attempts to have a system agnostic lisp "package" repository in the past that just didn't stick? 19:16:00 well, there was asdf-install 19:16:11 but it had a lot of problems. 19:16:28 out of curiosity, in your opinion, what where those problems? 19:16:34 *were 19:17:11 well, the most obvious ones were that it depended on a whole raft of different revision control systems to be online and functioning. 19:17:43 which also put you on the hamster wheel of tracking the development edge of any given system. 19:17:52 well, asdf-install was the name of the game before, but what quicklisp has really managed to do is lower the barriers to enter fun CL hacking. not the least for newbies. it's probably the most important tool in a decade or so for cl heh. 19:17:59 also, it was tied to cliki, which could be edited at any time. 19:18:12 so it was inherently untrustworthy. 19:18:21 and we feared, comprehensively 19:18:45 now it's as untrustworthy as Xach 19:19:00 and while it had a gpg integration, there was no maintained list of development keyrings, so you just ended up ignoring the gpg errors on every system. 19:19:35 which all combined made asdf-install a very rickety tower. 19:19:57 so is the key win for quicklisp in providing a centralized and controlled repo for packages? 19:20:31 well, the key win is that it's reliable, and the nature of the quicklisp dist forces a release discipline on popular packages. 19:20:38 ells: No 19:20:40 -!- tsuru [~charlie@adsl-74-240-217-227.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:20:59 as in, your first comment about asdf-install, did that work by using cliki to hunt down the package from all sorts of different sources, and that was the rickety part? 19:21:42 quicklisp inherently decreased the number of moving parts involved in adding a system as a dependency of something I'm hacking on. 19:22:33 Fade: what i'm more curious about is why it's reliable. is it because there's one set of servers where you get all the packages, or is reliable because of a new discipline in packaging that comes with it, reliable because of a particular package format itself? 19:22:38 ells: Well, I think I mostly object to "centralized and controlled." There is currently only one centralized and controlled repo, but there's nothing inherent in Quicklisp that dictates only one. You could set up another one. 19:22:42 Xach: Is there a need for mirrors yet? 19:23:07 I think the advantage of that current one is that projects are tested and if they don't build, or if they conflict with each other in some way, I hassle authors with bug reports so end-users don't usually see problems. 19:23:16 Xach: ok right, like APT, you can add more, but there are some 'canonical' resources that are likely to preconfigured, or "official" "mainline" etc? 19:23:19 Well, one advantage. 19:23:23 ells: yeah. 19:24:01 the choice of using z3 for package hosting was prescient. 19:24:04 imo 19:24:17 herbieB: not yet. 19:24:18 pretty non obvious, but the benefits are incredible. 19:24:46 S3? 19:24:56 er... yes 19:25:07 I'm lysdexing rather a lot this morning. :P 19:25:20 I use ZS3 to upload to S3 :) 19:25:55 -!- nauar [~kvirc@70.Red-213-4-38.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 19:25:57 :) 19:27:10 I've also gotten some nice code from a fella so I hope to integrate PGP signature checking soon. 19:28:37 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:29:11 H4ns, fixed the db side, moved the required data into smaller sqlite dbs 19:29:23 H4ns, things are super fast now :) 19:29:32 i suspect maintaining the keyring is the most difficult thing about cryptographic package signing. 19:30:25 I hope mainly to help people verify that the data they're getting was the data I intended to provide. Not so much the utility or safety of that data. 19:31:17 *Fade* nods 19:33:21 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 19:34:33 jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-133.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:44:29 drake01 [~drake01@115.246.133.42] has joined #lisp 19:44:58 hi 19:45:31 pjb: hi 19:45:53 Hi! 19:45:56 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:46:04 pjb: how are you ? 19:46:14 pjb: are you busy? 19:47:21 Wouldn't you prefer to make "A robot that flies like a bird" http://www.ted.com/talks/a_robot_that_flies_like_a_bird.html instead of a hexacopter. Looks like it consumes less energy, and it would be more unconspicuous. 19:47:21 19:48:00 vaaal [irc2gowebc@net-93-144-209-229.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #lisp 19:48:08 halo 19:49:32 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-131-9.vologda.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:50:04 vaaal: isn't it a bore to have to check the logs each time you log out and log in? 19:50:25 Otherwise you lose all the interesting things that are being said while you're out. 19:50:42 pjb: no, I'm waiting the stuffs to build the hexacopter 19:51:13 Posterdati: but a bird like bot will definitely be better than an hexacopter at spying... 19:51:16 vaaal: hi 19:52:14 pjb: maybe, but there will be problems to make it still in a point 19:52:16 -!- pinterface [~pinterfac@173-20-55-85.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:54:02 Xach: who will be signing packages - QL or the package creator(s)? 19:54:07 pinterface [~pinterfac@173-20-55-85.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 19:54:50 mon_key: Me. 19:55:04 "QL" 19:55:54 I will not be signing packages, but signing the metadata; the indexes that says "project foo is in foo-1.24.tgz with digest a4392cd3b... and size 8675309" 19:56:26 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:59:01 -!- vaaal [irc2gowebc@net-93-144-209-229.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:00:04 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-185-89.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:03:26 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A3706.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:03:46 -!- pnq [~nick@AC821CAA.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:05:22 Xach: Wow. Presumably this signing will exist as more than a nice QL courtesy. i.e. maybe somewhere there a not insignificant QL'ified boxes which organization(s) need to reliably/safely update in an automated fashion with impunity. 20:05:29 nonduality [~alex@chello084114039189.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 20:06:23 Well, I don't think that'll be feasible for a while. 20:07:45 wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:15:09 -!- austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:15:30 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-133.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:17:23 fgump [~fgump__@openvpn-124-140.inf.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 20:17:27 q 20:17:31 -!- nonduality [~alex@chello084114039189.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:18:20 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-46-38.iburst.co.za] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:19:06 -!- ells [~Adium@c-107-3-238-180.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:19:23 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 20:20:46 Xach: I would suspect that most Lisp compromises are via the FFI's per the mishaps of curly brace inclined. Its hard to imagine that those who might otherwise target lisp for fun and profit would consider it a good use of their time/resources. Which leaves a ragtag group of lispers to worry about. I always figure when a lisper intentionally compromises the CL source I pull (quicklisp or otherwise) they do so as the wise and accomplished 20:20:46 sages of the paren and that there is little point in trying to fight/detect their shenanigans anyhow. 20:21:03 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:21:29 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@2620:0:2820:b03:214:22ff:fe45:5204] has quit [Quit: Some days you're the pigeon, some days the statue...] 20:21:53 -!- anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 20:22:04 ASau [~user@95-25-192-7.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 20:22:15 anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has joined #lisp 20:22:19 That is pretty crazy. 20:22:33 I don't know what half of that means 20:25:55 Xach: even when "signing a file", gpg actually signs a digest hash of the file, so you're doing the same thing in an ad-hoc format 20:26:27 antifuchs: it means if i pull some lisp which you've diddled in a nefarious way I assume there is nothing i can do about it :) 20:28:19 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@78.185.216.43] has joined #lisp 20:28:19 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@78.185.216.43] has quit [Changing host] 20:28:19 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 20:30:49 is it possible to disable github's issue tracker for a project ? 20:31:36 -!- jdz [~jdz@host190-69-dynamic.54-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:32:34 fe[nl]ix: the difference is that the digest comes from a third party. 20:35:05 -!- ziga_ [~ziga@89.142.214.229] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:37:00 |nix| [~user@66-194-253-20.static.twtelecom.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:08 Yay. I finally defeated the SETFs that gave me nightmares last night \o/ 20:44:36 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 20:44:45 http://paste.lisp.org/+2NHZ <-- Looking better, right? :) 20:45:05 Might not be good code yet, but it's definitely less fucked up now :) 20:46:18 hussaibi [~hussaibi@CPE00222d3a5d80-CM00222d3a5d7c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:46:57 hussaibi_ [~hussaibi@CPE00222d3a5d80-CM00222d3a5d7c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:47:13 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216.239.45.20] has quit [Quit: Offline] 20:47:37 carbocalm [~user@38.99.165.166] has joined #lisp 20:48:32 2 files changed, 40 insertions(+), 34 deletions(-) 20:48:40 err sorry 20:48:54 git :-) 20:49:00 i like it too 20:51:15 weirdo: the project I'm working on is a filebased blogging tool. 20:51:29 file-based? kinda' sucks 20:51:32 I'm planning on using git in order to publish new posts 20:51:34 why? 20:51:51 hard to re-parse everything with each single request 20:51:56 like, metadata 20:52:11 Screw metadata^^ 20:52:22 this is going to be minimalistic. 20:54:21 metadata is mostly for search enginges, which by now do a pretty good job of collecting the data out of the texts themselves. Also I don't want to publish stuff for the search engines. 20:54:51 The next thing I'll do with python will have all sorts of fancy stuff. But it might take like a year or so for me to even care to restart that project :P 20:55:18 nikodemus [~nikodemus@87-93-105-92.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 20:55:27 -!- workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:57:07 gigamonkey: hi, 20:57:17 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:57:18 gigamonkey: how are you ? 20:58:06 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@78.185.216.43] has joined #lisp 20:58:06 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@78.185.216.43] has quit [Changing host] 20:58:06 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 20:59:07 -!- Posterdati [~tapioca@host245-214-dynamic.7-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:59:13 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:59:37 Posterdati [~tapioca@host245-214-dynamic.7-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 21:00:56 attila! flagello di dio! 21:01:18 -!- Posterdati [~tapioca@host245-214-dynamic.7-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:01:22 corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has joined #lisp 21:01:30 srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has joined #lisp 21:01:33 Posterdati [~tapioca@host245-214-dynamic.7-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 21:02:17 mmauryc [~mmmau@stu231-87.bard.edu] has joined #lisp 21:02:55 -!- bandu [~furfag@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:03:13 bandu [~furfag@pool-71-164-242-237.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:13 -!- bandu [~furfag@pool-71-164-242-237.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:03:13 bandu [~furfag@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 21:03:45 -!- HG` [~HG@p579F7D90.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:04:25 -!- rakete` [~user@static.228.2.63.178.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:04:33 pnq [~nick@ACA4415F.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 21:04:37 hey, i'm currently learning. could anybody explain or link me to an explanation of the differene of 'hello-world and "hello-world" in terms of the type system? "hello-world" is of the type string, but of which type is the other? and what differences makes that later? 21:04:45 gigamonk` [~user@adsl-76-254-18-22.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:46 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-18-22.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:07:34 maxm- [~user@p84-72.acedsl.com] has joined #lisp 21:08:05 corni: the other is a symbol. They can be used for a lot of things, but mostly they're used when we need an easy to type/read object that's compared for equality (i.e. an identifier) 21:08:55 -!- carbocalm [~user@38.99.165.166] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:09:06 corni: you can use (describe 'hello-world) and (describe "hello-world") to see the differences 21:09:58 -!- hussaibi_ [~hussaibi@CPE00222d3a5d80-CM00222d3a5d7c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:10:08 hussaibi__ [~hussaibi@CPE00222d3a5d80-CM00222d3a5d7c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:10:08 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:10:13 pkhuong, sbryant: thanks, especially for telling me about describe, I didn't know it before! 21:10:15 phax [~phax@adsl-68-73-148-217.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:15 -!- phax [~phax@adsl-68-73-148-217.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:10:15 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 21:10:30 realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:23 PokeTron [~PokeTron@unaffiliated/poketron] has joined #lisp 21:11:39 -!- PokeTron [~PokeTron@unaffiliated/poketron] has left #lisp 21:12:08 reparsing files for every request is almost certainly fine. 21:12:29 if it ever becomes a problem because your site gets 200000 hits/second, start using an in mem cache at that point... 21:14:40 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:14:59 corni: (list (type-of 'hello-world) (type-of "hello-world")) 21:18:56 -!- SuChek [~SuChek@unaffiliated/suchek] has left #lisp 21:18:56 -!- lisper [18d1340b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.209.52.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:19:32 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-93-62-105.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:26:06 tsuru [~charlie@adsl-74-240-217-227.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:24 -!- CallToPower [~CallToPow@s15229144.onlinehome-server.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:32:10 -!- hussaibi__ [~hussaibi@CPE00222d3a5d80-CM00222d3a5d7c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:32:15 -!- hussaibi [~hussaibi@CPE00222d3a5d80-CM00222d3a5d7c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:33:19 -!- MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:33:40 -!- confab [~ubuntu@c-24-10-60-185.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:35:44 -!- ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:35:44 finally a good use for what must be the most quoted thing i've ever said: http://www.cafepress.com/nikodemus.561017048 21:36:15 CallToPower [~CallToPow@s15229144.onlinehome-server.info] has joined #lisp 21:40:06 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.119.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:40:20 *bandu* sneaks into the chatroom 21:41:00 nikodemus: AWESOME! 21:41:09 Way better than the alien mug... 21:41:23 *redline6561* clicks "Add to cart" 21:43:36 hehe 21:44:07 MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:44:37 nikodemus: I don't think that my coffee will ever contain lisp. I also don't support butchering the lisp alien and drinking it. 21:45:37 (Just the alien without the "May contain" is more appropriate for a mug, IMHO) 21:46:24 Crowdsource the product design! Let compiler hackers hack, let marketing market, let cafepressers press stuff! 21:46:25 :P 21:46:55 gilligan_ [~gilligan@p4FEA4E76.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:18 evening 21:47:27 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:48:07 _6502_ [5e24eadb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.234.219] has joined #lisp 21:49:43 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@87-93-105-92.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:52:47 hussaibi [~hussaibi@CPE00222d3a5d80-CM00222d3a5d7c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:52:49 hussaibi_ [~hussaibi@CPE00222d3a5d80-CM00222d3a5d7c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:53:31 bleakgadfly [51a6aba8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.81.166.171.168] has joined #lisp 21:55:16 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:02:08 does anyone know if there's a rss parser that supports rss 2.0? 22:02:23 cl-rss appears to only support rss 0.9 22:02:43 -!- Joreji [~thomas@83-096.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:03:47 nikodemus [~nikodemus@87-93-105-92.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 22:03:54 I gave a quick read to the rss 2.0 standard ( http://www.rssboard.org/rss-specification ) and it appears easy to implement a parser for it 22:05:27 I'm just wondering if people just use xmls for it or something else 22:06:04 I remember reading a reddit comment a couple months ago in /r/lisp wishing for a feedparser ( http://www.feedparser.org ) implementation in lisp 22:08:27 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 22:10:08 -!- drake01 [~drake01@115.246.133.42] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:15:02 -!- clop [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:16:30 clop [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has joined #lisp 22:20:31 -!- sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:20:56 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:22:12 jmbr [~jmbr@curio.mat.ucm.es] has joined #lisp 22:22:20 What's a good lisp for doing multi/many core processing? commercial or free 22:22:33 specifically with a threaded GC (stop the word & thread, or concurrent) 22:22:44 -!- srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:22:46 -!- fgump [~fgump__@openvpn-124-140.inf.ed.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:22:57 we're with SBCL, and seem to really be hitting the wall there, with about 1/3rd of the utilization we should be having 22:23:11 seangrove [~user@99.13.242.166] has joined #lisp 22:23:44 you could opt for multiple processes instead of threads 22:23:48 drake01 [~drake01@115.246.133.42] has joined #lisp 22:23:56 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:24:09 we have multiple threads analysing large shared read-only data structures 22:24:15 does anyone have a concurrent gc? 22:24:42 and pop large objects between thread owners, which would be a real marshalling drag in a multi-process system 22:25:12 -!- drake01 [~drake01@115.246.133.42] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:25:32 drake01 [~drake01@115.246.133.42] has joined #lisp 22:25:40 i don't think any cl has a concurrent gc yet 22:26:03 kpreid [~kpreid@216.239.45.20] has joined #lisp 22:26:09 or a parallel one. 22:26:31 so even the commercial offerings don't go there? 22:26:32 sbcl might :) 22:26:44 Phoodus: have you figured out what's stopping it from running the way it should? 22:26:51 nikodemus: seems to be GC load 22:27:04 then GC less? heh 22:27:10 Phoodus: based on what? 22:27:12 we create a ton of intermediate results to pass around 22:27:33 do you spend a disproportionate amount of time in GC? 22:27:35 based on (time (sleep 10)) reports, and watching the memory footprint do a sawtooth 22:27:37 zmv [~daniel@c95334de.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 22:28:32 Phoodus: stack allocation will reduce GC pressure, if you can use it 22:28:45 i us 22:28:57 increasing the gc threshold will reduce the overhead a lot, too 22:28:59 -!- drake01 [~drake01@115.246.133.42] has quit [Client Quit] 22:29:04 our GC threshold is 20GB 22:29:06 or the always classy "allocate lisp objects on the foreign heap" 22:29:06 that too 22:29:07 rolando: i use feedparser in python to write sexps for lisp. 22:29:16 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:29:38 but we're now doing a lot of instrumentation data for analysis, and that further nails the GC pressure 22:29:41 Phoodus: do you have tenured dirty objects? 22:30:10 should be a fairly fixed number. I'd estimate the memory is about 90% functional style 22:30:40 I guess I could try to emulate feedparser's behaviour if I go ahead it this 22:30:43 *20GB*? sheesh 22:30:52 Phoodus: memoization? 22:31:02 large arrays? 22:31:09 memoization is gencgc poison 22:31:22 foom: stopping 24 cores so a 1-core GC can run is really expensive when it happens a lot for tiny GC passes. Making them larger helps 22:31:26 btw Xach, if I create the project (using the quickproject library), what would I need to do to add it to quicklisp? 22:31:26 (or large hash tables that are represented as large arrays) 22:31:37 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:31:42 nikodemus: no, there's almost no memoization 22:31:44 send you an email in a link to the repository with the .asd and .lisp files? 22:31:55 s/in/with 22:32:10 Phoodus: large simple-vectors? 22:32:17 mostly cons cells 22:33:50 Is there a way to create directories/folders in Common Lisp? 22:34:07 -!- hussaibi_ [~hussaibi@CPE00222d3a5d80-CM00222d3a5d7c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:34:11 pkhuong's more accurate dirty-object bookkeeping could help you then 22:34:11 ensure-directories-exist 22:34:28 if there is some experimental support for threaded GC in some fork somewhere, we'd be happy to give it some serious burn-in 22:34:49 Thanks, fe[nl]ix. 22:35:12 Phoodus: luis had one that ran the collector in parallel after stopping the world, but it didn't really seem to win anything -- too much synching during GC 22:35:25 -!- hussaibi [~hussaibi@CPE00222d3a5d80-CM00222d3a5d7c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:35:31 drake01 [~drake01@115.246.133.42] has joined #lisp 22:35:43 nikodemus: so the GC itself couldn't utilize the parallelism well? 22:35:55 that was my understanding 22:37:19 rolando: nothing -- for a local project, you can just quickload it immediately after creating it 22:37:25 no extension for shared memory? 22:37:33 rolando: on the next restart, it won't load unless it's somewhere in your source registry, though. 22:37:44 Xach: I meant for you to add it 22:37:48 -!- seangrove [~user@99.13.242.166] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:38:24 rolando: You have to ask 22:38:40 ok then 22:38:51 Phoodus: if you can more things into specialized vectors, that always helps 22:39:23 yeah, I've been thinking about that. Would be a major change though. We have a ton of tail-sharing lists building up branched inferential results 22:39:31 if I manage to actually make something publishable I'll ask you to add it to quicklisp 22:40:27 seangrove [~user@99.13.242.166] has joined #lisp 22:41:20 Phoodus: sb-introspect:allocation-information may be useful as well -- it can tell you which objects are on dirty pages, etc 22:41:49 <_6502_> hello... just wondering... why using "listp" instead of "list?" ? 22:42:05 _6502_: because that's how CL is written. 22:42:27 -!- rolando [~user@238.37.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:42:28 think "list Predicate" 22:42:31 <_6502_> ok... but any of you really is in love with that ending "p" ? 22:43:01 yes 22:43:02 nikodemus: hmm, possibly. most of our data is short-lived, though 22:43:03 <_6502_> "odd?" looks much more readable to me 22:43:11 _6502_: the vast majority of the existing lisp corpus, including the standard. 22:43:11 -!- Davidbrcz_ [~david@ANantes-151-1-189-112.w2-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:43:31 _6502_: "list" builds up a list. "listp" asks if it's a list 22:43:37 (list 1 2 3) -> (1 2 3) 22:43:43 _6502_: You might like scheme. Scheme tends to like the ? instead of p. 22:43:46 Phoodus: there some easier hacks than parallel or concurrent GCs, if most of your garbage has a known dynamic extent. 22:44:27 _6502_: the advantage is that you can pronouce the P ... :P 22:44:30 pkhuong: define "known" :) As in, most of it will die after a known point, but some minority of it will be held 22:44:32 <_6502_> hmm 22:44:38 <_6502_> niko: that 22:44:49 <_6502_> niko: that's a good point 22:45:00 Phoodus: so you could get an allocation region, allocate in it and marshall a few objects to the real heap, and clear the allocation region. 22:45:16 <_6502_> may be spitting a bit... tho :-) 22:45:47 <_6502_> what about "is-symbol" ? 22:46:03 <_6502_> i hate the ending P because of structures 22:46:14 pkhuong: that's good to know... I need to afk for a bit though 22:46:53 _6502_: There is no way you not liking p will change the standard. 22:47:00 it's a non-trivial amount of work, but less so than rewriting half the GC. 22:48:03 mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-076-182-089-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:48:17 <_6502_> schme: I'm writing a yet another lisp-to-javascript compiler and it's already quite non-standard, but it's a lisp-2 with defmacro because i'm not obsessed with macro hygene like apparently most schemers are 22:48:48 <_6502_> schme: actually i've "defmacro/f" that defines a macro and a function at the same time 22:49:09 -!- drake01 [~drake01@115.246.133.42] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:49:47 <_6502_> schme: so you can do "(defmacro/f first (x) `(aref x 0))" and it will expand as a macro but will also be usable with #'first 22:49:56 _6502_: Oh nice. and even if you were coding CL you're free to use list? and whatever anyway. 22:49:57 ph1234k [~ph1234k@ip72-209-135-200.ks.ks.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:35 nikodemus: I found the SBCL streams flushing bug that had been screwing up my client/server I/O. 22:50:42 _6502_: and how is that compiled? As a call to (lambda (x) (first x)) ? 22:50:49 reb``: ? 22:51:09 _6502_: we have those (except more general), they're called compiler macros. 22:51:22 <_6502_> pkhuong: as a macro expansion where x is x 22:51:44 <_6502_> pkhuong: i know... but they're also a bit more annoying to implement (even if more powerful) 22:51:48 _6502_: so how is (funcall #'first ...) implemented? 22:51:57 https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/820599 22:52:54 wowza 22:53:01 It affects all non-serve-events stream socket output. Causes data corruption .... 22:53:16 i was sure we had a test-case for that 22:53:28 <_6502_> pkhuong: in javascript that becomes simply "f$$first" ... (f$$ is the mangling, i'm using the global namespace with an "f" prefix for the symbol function cell) 22:53:30 unless someone merges it overnight, i'll see to it tomorrow 22:53:43 _6502_: in cases when you don't know that the first argument is #'first. 22:53:45 It only triggers when kernel buffers are full. 22:53:56 ... small I/O works OK. 22:54:38 nikodemus: I still have the garbage collection mutex deadlock problem I mentioned in an email ... sigh. 22:54:49 <_6502_> pkhuong: i'm not sure I understand the question... for example (funcall #'first (foo)) compiles to "f$$first(f$$foo())" 22:54:55 cfy__ [~cfy@123.155.196.94] has joined #lisp 22:55:09 i saw the email but didn't read it yet 22:55:17 _6502_: ok. But what happens when (lambda (x y) (funcall x y)) is passed #'first? 22:55:23 <_6502_> pkhuong: but (first (foo)) compiles instead to "f$$foo()[0]" thanks to the macro 22:55:30 bedtime now, i think 22:55:53 <_6502_> pkhuong: #"first is f$$first ... javascript has first class functions too 22:55:53 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@87-93-105-92.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:56:06 and how is f$$first implemented? 22:56:06 <_6502_> #'first 22:56:42 <_6502_> pkhuong: function(x){return x[0];} 22:57:09 emacs-dwim [~user@cpe-74-78-241-181.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:29 .. that's a very convoluted way to expose inline functions, or weirdly restricted compiler macros. 22:58:05 <_6502_> pkhuong: because that's the macro expansion `(aref ,x 0) when x is x 22:58:46 poormans ASDF:*output-translations* http://paste.lisp.org/+2NI2 22:59:09 <_6502_> pkhuong: it's just macros... however I kept a separate namespace for macro code instead of using the same namespace as functions, actually i think that this idea of sharing the same function cell for both macro and function is a strange thing in CL 22:59:40 <_6502_> pkhuong: i simply can have both a function and a macro with the same name, i don't see what's bad about it 23:00:18 <_6502_> pkhuong: i've (symbol-function x) (symbol-value x) and (symbol-macro x), three cells 23:00:42 but function/macro calls and variable lookup are syntactically different. 23:02:37 <_6502_> pkhuong: you mean you can do confusion if the macro and the function do different things? sure you can... but you wouldn't. One use is for example defmacro/f... 23:02:39 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 23:03:11 urandom__ [~user@p548A4C83.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:03:19 <_6502_> pkhuong: one problem is that it doesn't work with a variable number of arguments (&rest) ... because for the macro the variability is at macro expansion time, not runtime 23:03:40 _6502_: another is with quoted values. 23:04:16 <_6502_> pkhung: hmmm... sure you cannot do (defmacro/f when (...)) and expect anything reasonable to happen 23:04:58 <_6502_> pkhuong: but (defmacro/f first (x) `(aref ,x 0)) works nice also as a place without having to define a setter 23:05:14 So you're telling me that having separate macro and function cells is sane when you only use either of them, or as compiler macros? 23:05:55 <_6502_> pkhong: with first i'm using both... i can mapcar #'first and use first as a place 23:05:57 drake01 [~drake01@115.246.133.42] has joined #lisp 23:06:12 OK, I can see the setf-able place bit. 23:07:02 <_6502_> pkhuong: do you think the added *possible* confusion is not worth this gain? 23:07:20 I don't know. 23:07:38 <_6502_> pkhuong: i asked on SO and someone with a respectable reputation thought it was an horrible idea. I didn't understand fully the reasons however 23:08:53 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@curio.mat.ucm.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:09:03 I think the gain is tiny, though. Maybe with a more restricted relationship between macro and function that would make it very close to inlining. 23:10:24 -!- corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:10:56 taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:32 <_6502_> pkhuong: indeed the problems with a variable number of arguments seems a red alarm that something wrong is being done 23:11:41 -!- drake01 [~drake01@115.246.133.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:13:19 <_6502_> pkhuong: btw i'm amazed by the speed of javascript compiled code... classical fibonacci is just twice slower than SBCL (and many times faster than CLISP for example) 23:14:41 <_6502_> pkhuong: of course it's a dumbed down lisp similar to javascript (e.g. numbers are double-float only as in javascript, lists are javascript arrays - no CAR/CDR etc.) 23:15:37 If you want javascript with macros, parenscript might be the thing for you. 23:15:42 *weirdo* is writing a "real" Scheme for JS 23:15:55 i almost finished the numerical tower today, but it's 1am 23:15:55 weirdo: link? 23:16:03 pnq, http://piec.itcrew.pl/seaking 23:17:01 there haven't been any commits today because i'm not done with stupid numerical tower and dispatch 23:17:02 <_6502_> weirdo: indeed i don't think that many really need arbitrary precision integers by default... js is accurate to the unit up to 2**53, and that's enough for many applications 23:17:42 well, one also gets rationals 23:17:58 <_6502_> weirdo: and i really can't understand who uses lisp without (possibly unygienic) macros 23:18:19 _6502_, i have unhygienic macros in there 23:18:35 except there's no special form to refer to a toplevel binding 23:18:39 which is necessary in scheme 23:18:51 i'll implement hygienic macros later, basing upon riaxpander 23:19:08 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 23:19:33 <_6502_> sleeptime, tomorrow i'll have to drive for 1600km... see ya 23:19:45 <_6502_> i think i'll put my lisp toy on github next week 23:20:29 -!- _6502_ [5e24eadb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.234.219] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:31:00 realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:06 dnolen [~davidnole@pool-68-161-130-84.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:14 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@183.106.96.61] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:31:24 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@99-120-69-226.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: When there's nothing left to burn you have to set yourself on fire.] 23:33:43 setmeaway [~setmeaway@183.106.96.61] has joined #lisp 23:33:56 drake01 [~drake01@115.246.181.213] has joined #lisp 23:38:00 -!- anvandare [~anvandare@78-22-144-33.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:41:08 -!- zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has quit [Quit: Be back later] 23:44:33 -!- _root_ [~Scalable@li252-14.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:44:53 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-74-67-199-254.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:44:59 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl15-228-94.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 23:45:12 -!- taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:47:43 _root_ [~Scalable@li252-14.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 23:48:56 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@183.106.96.61] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:52:51 -!- lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@77.16.33.126.tmi.telenormobil.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:56:10 brandwe [~brandwe@c-71-227-176-38.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:27 -!- benny [~benny@i577A8390.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:57:38 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]