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(asdf 1.111) 01:36:36 :verbose nil 01:37:05 nop, tried that, does not work 01:37:24 are you sure that it's asdf that prints stuff? 01:38:23 ;; Loading file /usr/share/common-lisp/systems/cl-who.asd ... 01:38:24 etc 01:38:28 isn't this asdf? 01:38:41 clhs *load-print* 01:38:41 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_ld_prs.htm 01:38:41 even prints "0 errors, 0 warnings" in the end 01:38:47 clhs *load-verbose* 01:38:47 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_ld_prs.htm 01:38:53 oh that 01:38:56 clhs *c-f-p* 01:38:56 *COMPILE-FILE-PATHNAME*: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_cmp_fi.htm 01:38:58 err 01:39:02 clhs *c-p* 01:39:02 *COMPILE-PRINT*: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_cmp_pr.htm 01:43:01 thanks <3 01:45:06 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:51:30 zmv [~daniel@c95334de.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 01:56:09 -!- gkeith_lt [~gkeith@nat/google/x-iepsireyqsrmwzdm] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:59:39 ISF [~ivan@187.106.54.41] has joined #lisp 02:00:47 -!- hussaibi [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:01:10 -!- hussaibi_ [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:04:09 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: GOOD NIGHT] 02:05:53 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:10:58 -!- Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:13:59 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 02:14:22 hi, anyone know wheather cells-gtk is still maintained. I am thinking using it because cells sounds very appealing 02:15:48 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:12 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-181-173.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:20:21 kpreid_ [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-181-173.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:20:21 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-181-173.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:20:22 -!- kpreid_ is now known as kpreid 02:21:21 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.213.6] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 02:25:28 er wow ccl runs on arm 02:25:30 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A3D0D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:27:15 hussaibi [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has joined #lisp 02:27:16 hussaibi_ [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has joined #lisp 02:27:24 -!- zmv [~daniel@c95334de.virtua.com.br] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:28:12 77CAAYX72 [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has joined #lisp 02:28:19 hussaibi__ [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has joined #lisp 02:32:12 -!- hussaibi [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:32:13 -!- peearr [~aaron@159.153.4.51] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:32:24 -!- hussaibi_ [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:32:57 -!- replore [~replore@ntkngw133234.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:40:07 -!- 77CAAYX72 [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:40:11 -!- hussaibi__ [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:43:12 pnq1 [~nick@ACA210C2.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 02:43:25 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA37EC6.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Disconnected by services] 02:43:32 -!- pnq1 is now known as pnq 02:45:30 -!- Daev [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:48:12 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:48:35 -!- foocraft [~ewanas@178.152.109.5] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:49:47 -!- resu_ [~resu@97.72.154.166] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:51:38 Good morning everyone! 02:52:08 hussaibi [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has joined #lisp 02:52:12 hussaibi_ [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has joined #lisp 02:53:53 is there a function for loading a file into the repl without compiling it? 02:54:27 why are you opposed to compiling? 02:55:18 tempire: no. There's no way to force an implementation not to compile your code. 02:56:05 though there are different notions of "compiling" in CL 02:56:10 <|3b|> well, you could just READ it into a list, nothing was said about evaluating it, just "not compiling" :p 02:56:13 psilord2 [~psilord@adsl-71-150-252-22.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:56:19 -!- psilord2 [~psilord@adsl-71-150-252-22.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 02:56:49 *|3b|* isn't sure exactly what "load into the repl" means though 02:56:56 true enough, I meant evaluating. 02:57:28 how did you load your code before that? 02:57:56 essentially, I'm looking to do the same as an eval-buffer, without loading it into a buffer 02:58:26 <|3b|> then LOAD is the best you can get in portable CL, compile-by-default implementations might have an interpreter available as well if you want to get into implementation-specifics 02:59:59 some code may not be loaded without using COMPILE-FILE 03:02:32 foocraft [~ewanas@178.152.109.5] has joined #lisp 03:02:47 Why do you want to avoid compilation? 03:05:47 tempire: you could implement your own load function, but then, EVAL may still compile the expressions you give it! 03:05:58 tempire: so if you really don't want to compile, you will have to implement EVAL too. 03:06:10 Or use clisp, which doesn't compile when it's not asked to. 03:06:29 The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip72-192-56-169.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:34 ecl either doesn't compile when not asked. 03:09:52 tempire: by any chance, do you mean "compile" as in "generate a fasl file"? 03:10:05 (or equivalent) 03:10:12 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:10:27 Who knows what goes in the head of newbies? 03:10:34 that is why we ask 03:10:46 Telepathic bees. 03:11:03 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-74-67-199-254.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:12:03 -!- cYmen [~cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:13:45 telepabees? 03:16:16 -!- ISF [~ivan@187.106.54.41] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 03:17:37 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:18:00 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 03:19:15 cYmen [~cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has joined #lisp 03:23:55 Phoodus: yes, that's what I meant. 03:24:01 I wasn't aware they were two different things. 03:27:06 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:27:24 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 03:27:25 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-wuoufqbphvjaczyz] has joined #lisp 03:28:30 -!- Evanescence [~chris@122.237.31.7] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 03:31:13 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Client Quit] 03:31:21 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has joined #lisp 03:31:36 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 03:34:30 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.54.46] has joined #lisp 03:40:20 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA210C2.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:40:33 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:41:07 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 03:41:36 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:46:01 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 03:50:49 msponge [~msponge@nat/google/x-bojunqtybxertvns] has joined #lisp 03:51:52 beach: I've read some papers you've (co)written and I must say, I appreciate your inclusion of time/space complexities in many of your informal descriptions (e.g., in the paper about Climacs parsing) 03:56:49 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:57:35 tempire: yeah, sounded like it 03:58:09 LOAD should generally load a .lisp file by source instead of compiling to a binary first 03:59:39 if you don't specify .lisp extension, then LOAD may load .fasl 04:00:44 -!- tsanhwa [~user@61.129.42.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:10:55 vimes [~kvirc@108-75-136-17.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:13:47 Hi! has anybody made viper and paredit work together? 04:14:36 There are really pervert people... 04:15:06 French, usually. 04:15:53 Zhivago: envious. 04:16:13 -!- Hundenn [~Hunden@e180102201.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:16:13 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 04:19:51 Hunden [~Hunden@e180101041.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 04:20:26 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 04:21:10 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:22:08 I am impressed by sbcl's type checking. It just found a bug where I was multiplying something by NIL at *compiletime* and this code has been in my repository for 2 months. 04:23:33 I have a CASE without a default condition/case, so of course it returns NIL. I have never had it trigger during runtime while using CCL! 04:28:32 and yes whoever said sbcl takes a while to compile... they are correct. But I don't grudge it the time if it is going to find errors like this :) 04:29:48 still trying to make this 10 000 line project compile ^-^ 04:30:08 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-nhcmqjmwfhmzqqbe] has joined #lisp 04:30:38 I get warnings about implicitly creating new generic functions :S 04:30:47 why is that bad for the compiler? 04:30:54 it's bad for the programmer 04:31:19 and you don't get warnings, but style warnings 04:31:27 yeah sorry :) 04:31:34 I do love the package lock stuff :D 04:32:34 I did not realize NUMBER was in the cl package :( 04:32:44 of course consulting the hyperspec tells me indeed yes it is 04:33:18 If you had it never trigger, perhaps it's because it never occurs, and sbcl was to weak to see it. 04:33:36 Therefore it's a spurious warning. 04:33:37 pjb no I developed this project on CCL 04:33:46 sbcl is catching all sorts of errors 04:33:53 Which never occur? 04:34:18 pjb no which do occur. I did not declare a generic function in that case, and I do indeed have a function named NUMBER. 04:34:33 sbcl has been right every time :) 04:34:34 pjb: then don't occur when you don't trigger them 04:34:43 s/then/they/ 04:36:39 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:37:30 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 04:37:32 I still love that warning on (* 2 (case (:a 3) (:b 4) (:c 2))) :) 04:37:33 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-gnupytwsidchvuca] has joined #lisp 04:37:34 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-gnupytwsidchvuca] has quit [Changing host] 04:37:34 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 04:38:40 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.54.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:40:02 good morning all 04:42:04 -!- lisper [18d1340b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.209.52.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:47:15 argiopeweb [~elliot@175.40.91.184.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:49:26 anvandare [~anvandare@dD5770A18.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 04:51:27 -!- maxm- [~user@p84-72.acedsl.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:53:00 -!- kslt1` [~user@netblock-208-127-156-174.dslextreme.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:56:11 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:02:52 zmyrgel [~user@193.64.112.22] has joined #lisp 05:08:12 -!- csdwifi [~csdwifi@CPE-76-177-215-56.natcky.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:09:18 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 05:12:46 -!- vimes [~kvirc@108-75-136-17.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.1.1 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 05:14:14 -!- nicdev_ [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: nicdev_] 05:23:00 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-164-131.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:23:18 -!- anvandare [~anvandare@dD5770A18.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:30:29 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 05:35:24 -!- deathmoniac [~needcoffe@201-25-142-177.ctame705.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:46:51 -!- quasisane [~sanep@c-76-24-80-97.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:53:29 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-wuoufqbphvjaczyz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:54:31 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-kumfmmukahaaxeaw] has joined #lisp 05:57:58 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 06:01:59 quasisane [~sanep@c-76-24-80-97.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:04:14 serichsen [~user@hmbg-5f763dd9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 06:09:11 -!- kpal [eart0186@raven.linux.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:09:47 kpal [eart0186@raven.linux.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 06:11:02 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:14:30 -!- hussaibi [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:14:31 -!- hussaibi_ [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:15:32 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-164-131.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:16:05 trigen_ [c1aca602@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.172.166.2] has joined #lisp 06:17:04 Good morning! 06:20:00 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:22:47 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:23:32 good morning 06:23:33 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:7a2b:cbff:fed0:c11c] has joined #lisp 06:23:33 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:7a2b:cbff:fed0:c11c] has quit [Changing host] 06:23:33 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 06:23:57 tcr1 [~tcr@77-58-246-74.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 06:26:41 good morning 06:27:40 -!- msponge [~msponge@nat/google/x-bojunqtybxertvns] has quit [Quit: msponge] 06:30:11 -!- argiopeweb [~elliot@175.40.91.184.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:30:31 Daev [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:30:43 benny [~benny@i577A8D74.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 06:34:00 argiopeweb [~elliot@175.40.91.184.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:36:15 I noticed that SBCL doesn't have (compiler-macroexpand), and it doesn't seem to use (define-compiler-macro), too. 06:36:41 At least a (CL-PPCRE:SCAN) call gets compiled as function call, even with (debug 0) (speed 3) (safety 0) 06:36:49 Am I doing something wrong? 06:36:59 yes 06:37:15 I don't think that CL-PPCRE itself has to be compiled with the optimization settings, does it? 06:38:11 well, at least swank-fuzzy-completion and apropos don't seem to know about compiler-macroexpand ... 06:38:15 compiler macro for cl-ppcre expands into a function 06:38:24 for ppcre:scan 06:38:34 into a function call, rather 06:39:20 obviously, but what the compiler macro does as well is create scanners at compile times if they are static 06:39:32 (if the regexp argument is a static string, that is) 06:40:39 yes, my RegEx is a string ... so I'd expected to see a lot of character compares in the disassembly 06:40:40 jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-133.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:41:31 Compiler macros do nothing well, except for optional, transparent optimizations. 06:41:53 flip214: why do you expect that? 06:42:20 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:42:23 because there's an inline definition for scan, a compiler macro, and I've set the optimization settings 06:42:25 flip214: i think you've got to adjust your expectations. looking at assembly? boy, that is off-track. trace CL-PPCRE:CREATE-SCANNER for a start. 06:42:38 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 06:42:55 flip214: inline definition for scan is scan 06:42:56 so I had expected to get code like read-a-character, compare, jump, etc 06:42:58 with another argument 06:43:28 stassats`: (declaim (inline scan)) 06:44:01 flip214: inline optimization is optional with most compilers and often can't be directly influenced by the user. 06:44:36 flip214: also, large functions are rarely inlined. why would you want that anyway? 06:44:41 flip214: there is no inline proclamation for `scan' in cl-ppcre 06:45:17 stassats`: api.lisp line 180, current quicklisp 06:45:35 flip214: look carefully at line 170 06:45:39 err 06:45:40 179 06:46:03 do you understand what it means? 06:47:12 yes, it's only activated in the AllegroCL compatibility mode 06:47:49 so, do you understand what's going on now? 06:47:57 well, basically I hoped that CL-PPCRE would expand into low-level code, so that the dependency on cl-ppcre would basically vanish 06:48:49 what a strange hope 06:50:04 stassats`: not yet. the compiler macro says "(load-time-value (create-scanner ,regex))", so I'd expect create-scanner to be run at load-time, and to return a closure, which (defmethod scan ((scanner function) target-string) should just put into a funcall - so I hoped that the compiler is smart enough to combine all this 06:50:33 what are you really trying to do? 06:51:36 and yes, it is getting optimized at compile time, that's what i was saying from the beginning 06:51:42 stassats`: I'm trying to replace a perl script with a compiled binary. I'd like to use ECL, but for simplicities' sake I look at all that via SBCL first. 06:52:07 so, why are you poking into ppcre code, doesn't it work good enough? 06:53:25 compiling the script via ECL gives me undefined function errors when running the binary; but I remembered that CL-PPCRE says something about optimizing for constant strings, so I tried to find out what I'm missing 06:53:42 (ie. undefined function CL-PPCRE:create-scanner, IIRC) 06:53:44 ECL is not very robust 06:53:53 that's why I'm looking at sbcl first 06:54:32 ECL works on iPad and its competitors. SBCL doesn't even try. 06:55:34 what was that supposed to mean? 06:55:39 *g* 06:55:51 There's been an SBCL branch to use LLVM as compiler ... can that be used to compile SBCL itself? I'd like to get a small binary (and, if it's not easily avoidable, an libecl.so) ... some 64MB of core is unacceptable for replacing a few kB of perl 06:56:15 i'm pretty sure that you can get a shell on an rooted ipad so that flip's tool could then be run there, if it were using ECL. no such luck with SBCL. 06:56:20 flip214: get over it 06:57:25 flip214: dump an image with all the libraries that you're going to need in all your scripts, then compile+load your scripts from the command line using that image. 06:57:41 H4ns: ECL doesn't help by having show-stopper bugs all the time 06:57:53 stassats`: but it runs on the ipad, potentially. 06:58:11 H4ns: that's still a ~70MB core file, just "hidden" in some directory 06:58:22 flip214: did you try du -sh /usr/lib/perl? 06:58:26 and ECL can statically link C code in, which is needed here, too 06:58:44 flip214: lisp is the wrong tool for you. 06:58:49 H4ns: perl is still standard on nearly all installations (not anymore with RHEL6) 06:59:14 flip214: i understand. 70MB of disk space are precious in a RHEL6 install. 06:59:18 H4ns: is there any other scripting language that can be compiled into a binary, statically linking C code into it? 06:59:40 H4ns: no. it's not about the 70MB disk space - it's about the appearance. 06:59:47 flip214: i don't understand what you mean by "scripting language", but C should fit the bill. 07:00:02 "there's this program that replaces a 2kB perl script; sadly it requires a 70MB runtime" ;/ 07:00:18 flip214: "appearance"? i think if you want to make a point for lisp, you'll not want to waste your time wrestling with getting ecl to run. 07:00:22 why do you need to replace a perl script? 07:00:25 H4ns: C is not a scripting language. I'm speaking about something with a GC, for example. 07:00:32 flip214: rather, i'd emphasize quick development speed, the repl. 07:00:42 flip214: you can link boehm gc statically. 07:01:34 H4ns: is time invested in making ECL better "wasted"? 07:01:52 flip214: depends on what you're trying to achieve, of course. 07:02:18 flip214: but what you seem to want to do is make lisp be better in an area where it simply is not better than other dynamic environments: disk space usage. 07:03:03 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-133.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:03:09 well, ideally I'd like to get ECL to produce a small binary with no external dependencies ... I'm planning to play around with -ffunction-sections and GC in the linker, and so on. 07:10:24 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:14:45 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:16:22 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-127-57.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:16:22 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-127-57.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Changing host] 07:16:22 insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 07:22:49 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:25:04 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@77-58-246-74.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:25:41 JimHank [~JimHank@212.174.109.54] has joined #lisp 07:28:31 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 07:28:33 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 07:28:55 -!- ASau [~user@95-24-229-205.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: off] 07:29:18 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Client Quit] 07:29:48 I have swank:*sldb-printer-bindings* --> ((*PRINT-PRETTY*) (*PRINT-LEVEL*) (*PRINT-LENGTH*) (*PRINT-CIRCLE* . T) (*PRINT-READABLY*) (*PRINT-GENSYM* . T) (*PRINT-BASE* . 10) (*PRINT-RADIX*) (*PRINT-ARRAY* . T) (*PRINT-LINES*) (*PRINT-ESCAPE* . T) (*PRINT-RIGHT-MARGIN* . 1000) (*SLDB-BITVECTOR-LENGTH*) (*SLDB-STRING-LENGTH*)) ; why doesn't sldb display the whole arguments? 07:29:54 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:30:17 jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-46-38.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:30:28 -!- argiopeweb [~elliot@175.40.91.184.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:31:16 pjb: swank:*backtrace-printer-bindings* 07:31:55 Thanks. 07:33:02 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 07:37:24 the joy of not choosing vecto for drawing: bugs 07:39:21 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.119.222] has joined #lisp 07:39:50 Now, I set SWANK:*MACROEXPAND-PRINTER-BINDINGS* SWANK::*INSPECTOR-VERBOSE-PRINTER-BINDINGS* SWANK::*INSPECTOR-PRINTER-BINDINGS* swank:*backtrace-printer-bindings* and swank:*sldb-printer-bindings* all to the same bindings above, and sldb still prints .. in the backtrace! 07:39:57 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:40:20 I'll go back to bare clisp, at least it's debugger doesn't lie to me. 07:41:47 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-6-95.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:42:35 pjb: You can't handle the truth! 07:44:41 e-user [~e-user@nat/nokia/x-gnxmoqpsomfwxfzl] has joined #lisp 07:45:24 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 07:47:49 tsanhwa [~user@61.129.42.97] has joined #lisp 07:51:24 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.119.222] has joined #lisp 07:51:33 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.119.222] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:52:23 pjb: what did you set it to? 07:56:38 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:59:23 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 08:01:44 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:02:48 stassats`: http://paste.lisp.org/display/123730 08:03:03 I just evaluated it, without restarting swank. Perhaps one needs to reboot swank? 08:03:07 tfb [~tfb@80.238.0.145] has joined #lisp 08:04:27 Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-3-172.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:08:55 -!- foocraft [~ewanas@178.152.109.5] has quit [Quit: default SIGPORTAL handler] 08:10:51 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:11:34 pjb: how long are the structures you're printing? 08:12:02 (1+ (make-list 200)) shows up fully, for larger lists you need to increas *print-right-margin* 08:16:04 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 08:17:42 hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:18:44 cnl [~cnl@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 08:18:53 c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-blyapifcttzyitky] has joined #lisp 08:19:39 Evanescence [~chris@122.237.32.84] has joined #lisp 08:19:45 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 08:20:50 daniel__1 [~daniel@p50829159.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:22:45 It was a structure with a slot with a list, not too long, passed as parameter. 08:22:58 -!- daniel___ [~daniel@p50829165.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:36:26 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-007-180.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:37:25 reb`` [~user@nat/google/x-lhpybcvjykpeghzf] has joined #lisp 08:37:25 curious_corn [~ecausaran@84-53-64-50.adsl.unet.nl] has joined #lisp 08:38:02 -!- reb` [~user@nat/google/x-ibdhdndinqfifrzh] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:38:39 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:39:44 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-237-169.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 08:39:57 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:41:25 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 08:43:21 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 08:44:27 killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 08:51:11 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-98-135.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:53:33 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.119.222] has joined #lisp 08:53:45 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.119.222] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:59:25 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:01:17 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:01:20 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 09:03:34 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.38.83] has joined #lisp 09:06:24 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.119.222] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:06:34 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.119.222] has joined #lisp 09:11:52 BrianRice` [~water@174-21-120-48.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 09:13:33 -!- BrianRice [~water@174-31-138-212.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:13:33 -!- BrianRice` is now known as BrianRice 09:13:58 -!- DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:21:07 alama [~jessealam@n138138.science.ru.nl] has joined #lisp 09:24:29 -!- Borbus [borbus@85.17.58.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:27:13 i'm looking for a common lisp utility for creating (or at least giving the name of) a temporary file 09:27:34 i could make my own little utility, of course, but i don't want to reinvent the wheel 09:27:58 Pick a random number and retry on if-exists. 09:28:24 Zhivago: well, ok 09:28:29 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 09:28:35 alama: posix has tmpname and similar, so how about asb-posix? 09:28:35 iolib.syscalls:mkstemp 09:28:39 that's a good approach to getting race conditions. 09:28:59 oh, forget that. 09:29:10 H4ns: forget what? 09:29:15 my remark. 09:30:14 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.14.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:30:20 or osicat-posix:mkstemp, or sb-posix:mkstemp 09:30:23 i think i might go with Zhivago's solution; i guess this is a pretty easy problem 09:30:28 stassats`: i'm doing this in ccl 09:30:48 see "or" 09:31:02 Borbus [borbus@85.17.58.106] has joined #lisp 09:31:27 stassats`: ah, whoops 09:31:33 no disjunct satisfies me 09:32:15 in ccl you just have #_mkstemp 09:37:27 Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 09:38:00 -!- doc_who [~doc_who@pool-108-28-6-47.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 09:38:22 tsanhwa` [~user@61.129.42.97] has joined #lisp 09:38:47 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:39:51 -!- tsanhwa [~user@61.129.42.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:43:42 tsanhwa`` [~user@61.129.42.97] has joined #lisp 09:45:41 -!- tsanhwa` [~user@61.129.42.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:51:41 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-3-172.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:55:11 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:03:19 -!- yahooooo [~yahooooo@ec2-184-72-7-126.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:04:45 -!- antifuchs [~foobar@ec2-184-73-244-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 10:04:47 -!- clog [~nef@bespin.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:05:15 antifuchs [~foobar@ec2-184-73-244-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 10:05:31 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:05:31 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:05:52 mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 10:05:52 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has quit [Changing host] 10:05:52 mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has joined #lisp 10:05:53 -!- ski_ [~slj@c83-254-21-112.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:06:21 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 10:06:24 ski_ [~slj@c83-254-21-112.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:08:05 yahooooo [~yahooooo@ec2-184-72-7-126.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 10:10:25 zfx [~zfx@mail.inqmobile.com] has joined #lisp 10:10:25 -!- zfx [~zfx@mail.inqmobile.com] has quit [Changing host] 10:10:25 zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 10:10:47 anyone here tried to build REST like url on hunchentoot ? 10:11:29 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 10:13:46 kushal: restas? 10:13:58 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.38.83] has quit [Quit: checking wifi] 10:13:58 flip214, searching 10:15:12 -!- am0c [~am0c@218.51.116.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:15:37 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.119.222] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:16:00 flip214, so what people actually use hunchentoot directly or a framework like this ? 10:16:46 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.119.222] has joined #lisp 10:17:09 kushal: both. 10:17:59 kushal: Hunchentoot's default dispatching mechanism is quite OK. I am currently experimenting with a different dispatcher, though. 10:18:56 serichsen, ok, what I need is urls like /user/1 or /talk/23 etc 10:19:34 kushal: Then this might be interesting for you. Wait a second. 10:21:24 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 10:25:19 rstandy [~rastandy@net-2-32-228-42.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #lisp 10:26:31 -!- Evanescence [~chris@122.237.32.84] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 10:26:46 -!- tsanhwa`` [~user@61.129.42.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:28:52 kushal: that's exactly what restas provides 10:29:23 flip214, ok, checking the documentation 10:29:26 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@78.185.216.43] has joined #lisp 10:29:26 kushal: (restas:define-route chapter-?.html ("chapter-:(id).html") 10:29:26 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@78.185.216.43] has quit [Changing host] 10:29:26 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:32:04 -!- alama [~jessealam@n138138.science.ru.nl] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 10:32:43 If you don't like how restas does things, you can also set up a dispatcher using just cl-routes. 10:32:53 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-207-189.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 10:33:08 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-207-189.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has left #lisp 10:35:40 -!- Daev [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:36:13 lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@77.17.148.175.tmi.telenormobil.no] has joined #lisp 10:38:00 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 10:40:02 PokeTron [~PokeTron@unaffiliated/poketron] has joined #lisp 10:40:05 -!- PokeTron [~PokeTron@unaffiliated/poketron] has left #lisp 10:43:59 Is paste.lisp.org down? 10:44:31 Not specifically, but it's not connected to irc, last time I used it. 10:44:39 -!- zanea_ [~zanea@122.58.39.141] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:44:51 When submitting, I just get an empty page. 10:45:21 serichsen: go to http://paste.lisp.org and copy and paste your paste url. 10:46:43 http://paste.lisp.org/display/123732 10:46:58 pjb: Yeah. Strange though. 10:48:02 -!- acelent [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:ddfc] has left #lisp 10:50:09 zanea [~zanea@122.58.39.141] has joined #lisp 10:54:59 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-nhcmqjmwfhmzqqbe] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:55:32 H4ns` [~user@p4FFC8CDE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:56:10 DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has joined #lisp 10:58:51 -!- H4ns [~user@p4FFC94E7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:58:55 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-trvircisgxaroqvm] has joined #lisp 11:00:51 lichtblau [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 11:07:44 -!- lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@77.17.148.175.tmi.telenormobil.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:08:07 flip214, when I am trying to create a route it is saying "The name NIL does not designate any package." 11:08:46 perhaps you're missing (restas:define-module) ... 11:08:53 ollkorrekt [~psych069@63.238.216.253] has joined #lisp 11:08:54 example here: https://github.com/archimag/restas/blob/master/example/example-2.lisp 11:10:06 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.155.48] has joined #lisp 11:11:31 flip214, nah, I am having that 11:11:42 aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 11:12:05 paste? 11:12:38 flip214, yes, wait 11:16:08 alama [~jessealam@n138138.science.ru.nl] has joined #lisp 11:16:38 flip214, http://paste.lisp.org/display/123733 11:17:37 kushal: I think you need the () for parameters in URLs, as in "rpm/:(id)" instead of "rpm/:id" 11:17:39 kushal: I see a mismatch between "megasystem" and "megas.ex2". 11:17:50 yes, the in-package and define-module disagree, too 11:18:20 flip214, serichsen so both should be the same ? 11:18:36 nicdev_ [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 11:18:39 you can have multiple modules, and define routes in any of them 11:18:53 but in this simple example they should match 11:19:36 and rpm-details doesn't match rpm-?.html 11:19:39 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.138.95] has joined #lisp 11:20:30 flip214, ok 11:23:39 sharps [~hazel@121-72-240-85.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #lisp 11:25:39 jsoftw [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 11:26:48 mrSpec [~Spec@pool-151-204-255-122.bstnma.btas.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:26:48 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@pool-151-204-255-122.bstnma.btas.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 11:26:48 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 11:27:57 drake01 [~drake01@115.246.190.163] has joined #lisp 11:28:14 -!- DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:28:16 ok, most errors came from wrong copy/paste 11:28:26 now no errors, but the page is blank :( 11:28:47 DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has joined #lisp 11:29:26 Joreji [~thomas@83-096.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:30:03 ok, all pages are empty , even the root 11:31:18 Is there any work/project which impliments the good stuff from erlang? 11:31:43 pnq [~nick@AC81CF66.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 11:32:05 jsoftw: cliki.net is good resource. 11:33:24 -!- nicdev_ [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: nicdev_] 11:36:02 clog [~nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 11:38:56 Is there something similar to (macroexpand) and (compiler-macroexpand) that does all these things, recursively, as far as possible, so that the result consists of the most basic Lisp function calls? 11:39:06 *Xach* was disappointed by the end of http://www.arclanguage.org/item?id=14998 11:39:56 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-39-196.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:40:09 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 11:40:50 markskil1eck [~mark@host-92-12-25-192.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 11:42:53 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-74-67-199-254.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:43:24 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:44:03 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-236-28.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:44:48 Arc eh. 11:45:43 The Canadian dialect? 11:46:12 The page intends to describe how to set up slime+arc, but what it describes is about the same as M-x shell RET arc.sh RET 11:46:25 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.228] has joined #lisp 11:46:26 flip214: not in the standard. but there have been functions written for that, and the function name to search for is macroexpand-all 11:47:04 I'm currently looking at sbcl-llvm ... that seems to have something similar 11:47:14 also, a quick google search brought up something called macroexpand-dammit on a blog somewhere, which apparently does that as well. 11:47:19 hmm, ccl's RUN-PROGRAM is hanging on me 11:48:32 it has something to do with the output stream: when i give :output :stream, the subprocess seems to hang 11:48:33 nicdev_ [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 11:48:51 sharps: thank you, "macroexpand-dammit is a code walker by John Fremlin. " 11:49:52 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:49:58 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-kumfmmukahaaxeaw] has left #lisp 11:50:18 ccl's RUN-PROGRAM does work in the cases where the subprocess produces only a bit of output; if the subprocess produces a lot of output, we seem to be getting into trouble with the hanging 11:50:26 dnolen_ [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:50:55 have you tried reading from the stream? 11:51:01 i don't know where the boundary between big and small is (i'm actually just calling xsltproc to generate some xml -- for some small output xml, RUN-PROGRAM works OK, but for some big output xml, it hangs) 11:51:49 Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:52:00 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-74-67-199-254.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:52:13 stassats`: how do i get the stream? i'm using :wait t for RUN-PROGRAM, so I can't (?) get the output stream for the process till the process finishes 11:52:24 -!- nicdev_ [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 11:52:37 don't use :wait t? 11:53:21 the limit should be 4 or 64kB - that's the default pipe buffer size on linux 11:55:06 stassats`: hmm, i would then just read from the process's output buffer until there's no more left to be read, i suppose 11:56:21 stassats`: ah, that did it, thanks 11:56:56 i was using RUN-PROGRAM by waiting for it to terminate, then checking the exit code; if the exit code was 0, i'd then read the process output 11:57:33 now i can go the other way around, i guess: read from the process input till there's nothing left, then check the exit code; if it's 0, then give the output, otherwise signal an error 11:58:23 alama: or run-program with STDOUT redirected to /dev/null, if it returns 0 start it again, processing the output, hoping that it returns 0 again ;) 11:58:42 flip214: heh. are you serious? 11:58:48 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 11:58:48 of course not 11:59:06 can't you tell by the dot in the big-O? 11:59:07 that would be a hilarious waste 11:59:48 alama: read thedailywtf.com for some time, then you'll know much worse things 11:59:50 " this process worked because it used to!" 12:00:11 well, a computer is all about having reproduceable results, right? 12:00:37 s/having/ensuring/ 12:00:55 flip214: awesome. adding thedailywtf to my newsreader 12:01:16 serichsen: why would you need /dev/random then? 12:03:59 Vivitron` [~user@pool-71-174-61-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:22 -!- Vivitron [~user@pool-71-174-61-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:09:41 -!- Joreji [~thomas@83-096.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:12:08 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.138.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:16:47 -!- rstandy [~rastandy@net-2-32-228-42.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:17:53 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-trvircisgxaroqvm] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:18:31 flip214: "having not reproducible behaviour" is not the same as "producing unbiased random values". 12:22:39 serichsen: I meant that if you only allow reproduceable results you cannot (safely) do SSL or other cryptographic operations that need secret values 12:24:53 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:25:56 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-6-95.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:26:57 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-zalociztuhbjlfle] has joined #lisp 12:27:15 flip214: OK, that is reproducibility in a different sense---you want the property "(pseudo)nondeterministic" of a value to be reproducible, not the value itself. 12:27:54 yeah, got caught on different terms 12:28:39 lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@77.17.148.175.tmi.telenormobil.no] has joined #lisp 12:29:30 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.155.48] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:30:19 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 12:32:17 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 12:32:29 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.155.48] has joined #lisp 12:32:54 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gw.maxisat.fi] has quit [Quit: Byes!] 12:33:16 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81CF66.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:35:44 peterhil` [~peterhil@gw.maxisat.fi] has joined #lisp 12:39:06 -!- H4ns` is now known as H4ns 12:41:06 Harag [~Harag@dsl-242-254-64.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:42:27 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.138.95] has joined #lisp 12:47:06 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:48:37 *jsoftw* is busy investigating clopjure 12:50:07 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 12:50:34 PokeTron_ [~PokeTron@unaffiliated/poketron] has joined #lisp 12:50:39 -!- PokeTron_ [~PokeTron@unaffiliated/poketron] has left #lisp 12:50:44 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 12:52:55 -!- markskil1eck [~mark@host-92-12-25-192.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:53:09 genieliu [~genieliu@59.78.62.120] has joined #lisp 12:53:16 what is clopjure? 12:53:41 -!- zmyrgel [~user@193.64.112.22] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:54:16 French health problems provoked by smoking. 12:55:26 -!- drake01 [~drake01@115.246.190.163] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 12:55:41 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-zalociztuhbjlfle] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:56:22 lol. 12:57:27 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.138.95] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:57:44 Joreji [~thomas@69-105.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:58:57 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gw.maxisat.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:59:46 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.228] has joined #lisp 13:01:06 Hey beach! Are Go geeks swarming the campus? 13:02:21 I hear they are yes. I haven't looked for myself. 13:02:51 But they were on the local news yesterday. 13:03:14 drake01 [~drake01@115.246.190.163] has joined #lisp 13:03:18 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-udppqzicauwvlvoe] has joined #lisp 13:03:29 La0fer [~Laofers1@64.120.233.114] has joined #lisp 13:03:39 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181056239.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:03:55 SBCL crowdfunding questionnaire: https://spreadsheets.google.com/a/random-state.net/spreadsheet/viewform?formkey=dG5NVDZ2VTkwWTVyN3NpUW1mdWFMVkE6MQ&ifq 13:04:32 That is a long URL. 13:04:39 Long but worth it! 13:04:52 -!- drake01 [~drake01@115.246.190.163] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 13:05:21 nikodemus: is that a spread-the-word URL? Or just for #lisp? 13:06:02 drake01 [~drake01@115.246.190.163] has joined #lisp 13:06:03 spread the word 13:07:41 Xach: you're disappointed arc doesn't have progn? 13:07:43 -!- alama [~jessealam@n138138.science.ru.nl] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 13:08:21 <_3b> pjb: maybe disappointed that instructions for setting up slime stopped before the part about actually making slime work? 13:10:04 ehu [~ehuels@109.32.169.9] has joined #lisp 13:10:12 More the latter than the former. 13:10:24 (= a b) is reason enough to ignore arc. 13:10:55 nikodemus, done 13:11:04 thanks! 13:11:45 pjb: i have a passing interest in non-CL swank implementations. 13:11:54 I thought there might be one to review. 13:12:15 you are aware of swank-js and swank-closure, i assume? 13:12:19 nikodemus, do you have a logo ? say for buttons ? 13:12:36 peterhil` [~peterhil@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe4af800-59.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 13:12:37 maxm- [~user@p84-72.acedsl.com] has joined #lisp 13:13:11 H4ns: yes 13:13:13 kushal: there's the save-lisp-and-die logo, but for this sort of thing i think i'd have something a bit more special 13:13:45 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-076-182-089-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:16:08 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.46.180] has joined #lisp 13:17:12 nikodemus, ok 13:17:49 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181056239.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:17:50 nikodemus_ [~nikodemus@cs181056239.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:18:09 zfx- [~zfx@mail.inqmobile.com] has joined #lisp 13:18:10 nikodemus_, http://www.xach.com/img/save-lisp-and-die.png ? 13:18:20 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181056239.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:18:27 Re. ANSI CL standard, http://dilbert.com/fast/2011-08-02/ 13:18:42 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 13:18:42 that's the one. i should have it as .svg somewhere, unless i'm mistaken 13:19:10 -!- nikodemus_ [~nikodemus@cs181056239.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 13:19:14 nikodemus_, if you can send it , I will print a tee :) 13:19:22 zbir/urbanape made it originally 13:19:32 will also need some nice oneliner code for back 13:19:33 my treasured black SLAD shirt has worn out :( 13:19:43 Xach, any pic ? 13:19:48 mine is pretty gray too 13:19:55 kushal: that's nice for a tattoo :) 13:19:57 http://xach.com/img/slad-shirt-black.jpg 13:20:07 -!- zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:20:14 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.155.48] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:20:21 aerique, :) 13:20:38 Xach, ah, I guess it looks better in your pic 13:21:25 nikodemus: should bring some of those shirts to the ECLM to sell them 13:22:55 -!- drake01 [~drake01@115.246.190.163] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 13:23:00 -!- dnolen_ [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen_] 13:23:46 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.155.48] has joined #lisp 13:24:09 Xach: you need a t-shirt labelled "QUicklisp Hero". With it, you'll get virgins at your feets and flowers and honey at the next lisp conference you participate. 13:24:48 (Even without it, but just not impromptu ones) 13:25:05 http://www.flickr.com/photos/xach/4936434198/ 13:25:16 pjb: if wearing a t-shirt is enough I might be in amsterdam this year ;) 13:25:46 Xach: if it read "(ql:quickload :quicklisp)" it would be a nice insider joke 13:27:02 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:27:48 i see there are several sqlite packages for CL, does anyone have a recommendation before I through them myself? 13:34:32 aerique: I have successfully used clsql against sqlite3, but that is my only data point, and it was a pretty limited use 13:40:06 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-udppqzicauwvlvoe] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:40:24 -!- lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@77.17.148.175.tmi.telenormobil.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:40:50 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:41:43 nikodemus: how many responses so far? 13:41:50 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe4af800-59.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:42:55 26 13:44:20 This channel is full of idlers. 13:44:22 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:44:38 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 13:44:45 *jdz* too 13:45:16 mrSpec [~Spec@c-66-31-28-194.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:45:16 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@c-66-31-28-194.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:45:16 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 13:45:33 Xach: I just don't usually have anything to say :P 13:50:39 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.32.169.9] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:53:18 ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has joined #lisp 13:54:36 peterhil` [~peterhil@gw.maxisat.fi] has joined #lisp 13:54:53 nauar [~kvirc@70.Red-213-4-38.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:56:42 urandom__ [~user@p548A2546.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:56:58 -!- sharps [~hazel@121-72-240-85.cable.telstraclear.net] has left #lisp 13:58:50 SuChek [~SuChek@unaffiliated/suchek] has joined #lisp 14:00:41 carlocci [~nes@93.37.198.166] has joined #lisp 14:01:14 Yuuhi [benni@p5483B46A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:03:10 Xach: or people that really can't decide on answers (like me). I'd love to support SBCL, but donation would cut into my public transport budget 14:03:14 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-164-131.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:04:04 It is therefore your duty to earn more money 14:05:24 preferably doing Lisp. 14:05:47 I'm not picky. 14:06:01 Let nikodemus do the Lisp bit. 14:06:03 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:06:20 Xach: well, yeah, but it's not something that will work out short term :P 14:06:40 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-181-83.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:07:53 at 46 answers now. good thing i did this -- i already have a vastly better idea of how to scale things 14:08:26 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 14:08:26 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:09:25 now i just have to figure out the taxes will work out... 14:09:41 s/out/out how/ 14:09:50 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 14:10:01 perhaps fork SBCL maintenance into a 501(c)(3) :P 14:10:39 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.43] has joined #lisp 14:10:50 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 14:12:09 I need help understanding EVAL-WHEN. I'm trying to understand when :LOAD-TOPLEVEL is used. In my tests I have never managed to have the form executed when it's surrounded by (EVAL-WHEN (:LOAD-TOPLEVEL) ...), no matter where I put it. 14:12:18 Anyone can explain when it's used? 14:12:23 sykopomp: not that many american SBCLers, and I'm not sure how that helps with international tax status. 14:12:47 loke: eval-when is used by specifying all 3 possibilities. 14:13:34 always. 14:13:36 its expert version, eval-when, is used by third dan black belts in logic conundrums and up. 14:13:51 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 14:13:57 pkhuong: It was somewhat tongue-in-cheek. I'm not sure a project with a for-profit contractor attached to it would necessarily qualify. 14:14:07 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:14:32 sykopomp: it's a serious question and has been considered. IIRC, that's what FBSD does. 14:15:04 ah! I didn't know that. 14:15:36 pkhuong: Okay... 14:15:56 -!- nauar [~kvirc@70.Red-213-4-38.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:16:17 So... Is there actually an answer to the question? :-) 14:16:33 loke: The answer is "never". 14:17:00 Hmm... But the hyperspec includes examples where only :EXECUTE is used 14:17:03 bobbysmith007: thanks, looks like a good start 14:17:16 Esoteric examples, yes. But still. 14:17:20 COMPILE-FILE and LOADing the fasl would work. 14:17:22 maybe. 14:17:24 loke: http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/doc/CommonLISP/HyperSpec/Body/sec_3-2-3-1.html 14:17:47 nauar [~kvirc@70.Red-213-4-38.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:03 I tried that. During COMPILE-FILE, :COMPILE-TOPLEVEL is evaluated. When I loaded it I expected :LOAD-TOPLEVEL to be evaluated, but it isn't. 14:18:24 loke: not that simple see the table in the link. 14:18:28 loke: load the fasl. 14:18:29 pnq [~nick@AC81467A.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 14:18:30 load-toplevel is executed when a _fasl_ is loaded 14:18:59 nikodemus: that's what I did. I loaded the fasl that I just compield 14:19:14 was the eval-when at toplevel? 14:19:18 Oh wait 14:19:43 You're right... (load "foo.fasl") made it work, (load "foo") didn't (even though it does load the fasl in both cases, right?) 14:20:23 Is there a way to do number->string without using format and without side effects? 14:20:30 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-69.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:20:48 herbieB: (princ-to-string number) 14:20:57 Just found that 14:21:01 herbieB: no. Arrays are side-effectful data structures. 14:21:11 Thanks :) 14:21:17 p_l|backup: I'm sure you can scrap $5 or $10 from some useless spending. I'll give $10 or $20 while I don't even really use SBCL... 14:21:42 (does not know why his eyes glazed over -to-string functions when searching before) 14:21:56 OK, thanks for your help regarding EVAL-WHEN. Turns out my last test was flawed. I must have modified the .lisp file, as retesting it does cause the load-form to be evaluated. 14:22:30 pjb: sbcl uses YOU! 14:22:46 pkhuong: Though I don't understand why you said that, what side effect are you talking about when you do (rinc-to-string 123)? 14:23:07 Xach: I found a bug in F2CL by the way. Do you know the maintainer? 14:23:09 Getting a program-error? (princ-to-string 123)? 14:23:26 milanj [~milanj_@109-93-62-105.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 14:23:31 loke: i think rtoy maintains it 14:23:54 herbieB: the ones used to mutate the string that's returned. 14:25:09 lisper [18d1340b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.209.52.11] has joined #lisp 14:25:16 pkhuong: Ah, ok. I was talking from a black box point of view outside the function used. 14:25:30 How do I get sbcl to convert a sequence of octets into a stream? 14:25:45 *input stream 14:25:48 write-sequence? 14:26:05 Or are you talking a character stream? 14:26:09 lisper: you can use a library for that. flexi-streams. 14:26:44 xach yeah I know about that, just I was using a ccl extension and wondering if sbcl had something similar :) 14:27:00 jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.56] has joined #lisp 14:27:04 realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:12 No. 14:27:12 I don't really need a whole library for something as simple as converting #(0 23 24) or whatever (binary protocol) into a stream :) 14:27:45 Why not? 14:27:49 Someone wrote it just for that purpose. 14:30:11 antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-1177890641.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:30:11 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.46.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:32:07 ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:32:27 not given much of a choice I guess. flexi-streams it is 14:32:48 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81467A.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:41:56 rme [~rme@50.43.147.22] has joined #lisp 14:42:21 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:45:21 pjb: $10 is around my weekly budget for anything right now, so.. 14:45:32 (no useless spending here till I get a job) 14:46:11 dmytrish [~dmytrish@195.238.93.36] has joined #lisp 14:46:19 -!- dmytrish is now known as EarlGray 14:47:49 I wish I could live on $10/w 14:48:02 sykopomp: move in with your parents :P 14:48:25 p_l|backup: I bet my wife would love that. :) 14:48:47 *sykopomp* can see that happening, though. 14:52:02 the worst thing is that I could probably get a well paying job right now if I decided to drop uni :/ 14:52:54 how much more time do you have to serve? 14:52:55 uni. 14:53:19 sykopomp: 3 years, assuming my retaking of 3rd year will work out fine 14:53:30 Ugh 14:53:39 What are you studying anyway? 14:54:48 Computing Science (AI track), for Master in Science diploma (a kind of "unfinished" Master's - I can go straight for PhD with it) 14:55:48 2.5 year so far, but I wasn't there for exams for 5 half-session (last 0.5y). Health issues 14:56:15 Learning much? 14:57:21 jsoftw: not so much in CS 1st year, but the compulsory Psychology (AI track) gave me a lot. Robotics and OS classes in 2nd year were interesting, and second half-session of 3rd year was when the truly interesting stuff started 14:57:43 4th year was to be industrial placement (10 months of internship) 14:57:57 -!- cnl [~cnl@78.31.74.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:58:46 p_l|backup: for science/maths subjects here, the usual approach is to do a pretend masters for six months, then switch to doing a phd 14:59:00 (in general, no-one wants to fund research masters; phds are preferable) 14:59:04 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-155-113.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 14:59:50 rsynnott: by here what country do you mean? 15:00:45 rsynnott: UK doesn't have research master's at all 15:01:19 nicdev: Ireland 15:01:55 replore_ [~replore@ntkngw133234.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:02:29 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 15:02:31 upwardindex [~upwardind@modemcable016.209-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 15:02:42 when you apply for magister degree, it's "taught postgraduate", while PhD is "research postgraduate". The latter accepts people who have Master's (magister), or have Master In Science or BSci w/Honours (at least for technical/science stuff, dunno how it is for arts) 15:02:44 -!- genieliu [~genieliu@59.78.62.120] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:03:07 rsynnott: i am looking at programs in US and so far i see a similar 15:03:08 trend, much less funding for masters than PhDs 15:03:28 realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:19 kslt1` [~user@netblock-208-127-156-174.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 15:04:25 not surprisingly, Canada mostly mimics the UK/US trend in that regard [wrt STEM disciplines] ;) 15:05:27 nicdev: makes some sense; a research masters takes often more than half as long as a phd, but is much less likely to produce interesting results 15:05:33 This might be partially explained by the fact that not all master's result in publications 15:05:48 -!- EarlGray [~dmytrish@195.238.93.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:06:01 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:06:29 but strictly speaking you can't go straight from a batchelors to a phd here, so it's usually a condition of funding that you pretend to do a masters for a few months before switching 15:06:30 sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 15:06:50 EarlGray [~dmytrish@195.238.93.36] has joined #lisp 15:08:14 heh. I got a mail inquiring about job in Aberdeen (UK, where I'm studying) with some international Oil company :/ 15:09:30 aberdeen has a lot of oil production, doesn't it? 15:09:59 rsynnott: more like it owns UK petrol market 15:10:11 (and gas etc) 15:10:59 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has quit [Quit: bye] 15:13:41 -!- ymas [~ymas@unaffiliated/ymas] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:14:32 -!- aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:16:00 peearr [~aaron@159.153.4.51] has joined #lisp 15:16:25 HG` [~HG@p5DC04F78.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:33 adsf34 [51ae994e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.81.174.153.78] has joined #lisp 15:17:11 -!- alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:18:52 Maybe they want you to demonstrate that oil is safe to drink. 15:19:08 ymas [~ymas@unaffiliated/ymas] has joined #lisp 15:20:02 alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #lisp 15:20:24 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-181-173.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Offline] 15:22:02 phax [~phax@adsl-68-73-148-217.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:02 -!- phax [~phax@adsl-68-73-148-217.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:22:02 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 15:24:02 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.128.231] has joined #lisp 15:24:23 -!- alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:25:24 alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #lisp 15:27:45 Zhivago: nah, sysadmin job 15:28:58 -!- nauar [~kvirc@70.Red-213-4-38.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:32:06 stassats`: http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/doc/CommonLISP/HyperSpec/Body/sec_3-2-3-1-1.html solved my problem, just wrapper defmethod/lift in eval-when, and there you go, macro has the enviroment required, and yes i should have read more about macros. thnx. 15:37:57 -!- v0|d [~user@93.94.250.121] has left #lisp 15:39:19 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:39:33 kushal [~kdas@114.143.163.225] has joined #lisp 15:39:44 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.163.225] has quit [Changing host] 15:39:44 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 15:40:12 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:43:58 -!- jeekl [~crz@unaffiliated/jeekl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:44:09 -!- taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:44:55 stassats`: Could you remove (autoload 'slime-scheme-mode-hook "slime") from slime-autoloads.el? 15:45:03 -!- JimHank [~JimHank@212.174.109.54] has quit [K-Lined] 15:45:43 jeekl [~crz@unaffiliated/jeekl] has joined #lisp 15:48:54 joachifm [~joachim@ti0150a340-0576.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 15:49:13 -!- joachifm [~joachim@ti0150a340-0576.bb.online.no] has quit [Client Quit] 15:49:46 joachifm [~joachim@ti0150a340-0576.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 15:50:03 -!- joachifm [~joachim@ti0150a340-0576.bb.online.no] has quit [Client Quit] 15:50:21 pnq [~nick@ACA3562C.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 15:57:11 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:58:18 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-164-131.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:58:23 leo2007: do you really need slime-autoloads? 15:59:04 stassats`: I use (require 'slime-autoloads) in site-start.el 15:59:42 -!- EarlGray [~dmytrish@195.238.93.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:00:19 why not just load slime at the start? 16:00:28 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 16:01:19 kpreid [~kpreid@216.239.45.20] has joined #lisp 16:04:11 PokeTron [~PokeTron@unaffiliated/poketron] has joined #lisp 16:04:16 -!- PokeTron [~PokeTron@unaffiliated/poketron] has left #lisp 16:04:33 Do you think a lot of people are interested in Lisp because they are searching for the best possible tool but then get a bit put off by the lack of a clear "best" option? (clojure, cl, scheme, racket...) 16:04:49 stassats`: slime-autoloads is smaller and site-start.el is for system wide stuff, so I'd like to keep it light. 16:05:01 I think that a lot of people are interested in lisp because they've heard that clever people use it. 16:06:10 -!- serichsen [~user@hmbg-5f763dd9.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:06:56 upwardindex: no, they're not put off. 16:07:03 foocraft [~ewanas@178.152.109.5] has joined #lisp 16:07:10 There's no best option. THere are different options for different circumstances. 16:07:46 -!- ollkorrekt [~psych069@63.238.216.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:09:46 pjb: Yes we hear that all the time but when was the last time you judged that windows batch script was the most appropriate 16:10:20 I think that it's most appropriate for lots of people. 16:10:24 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 16:10:28 upwardindex: don't be silly, we don't do use microsoft software here. 16:10:36 *H4ns* does 16:10:43 pjb: maybe there are no best option, but there are worse options then 16:10:55 upwardindex: But I always select one or the other CL implementation, depending on what I'm doing. 16:10:56 upwardindex: pjb has a unique sense of humor 16:11:34 The choice is not between clojure or scheme. We only use Common Lisp. 16:11:42 The choice is between sbcl, ecl, ccl, clisp, etc. 16:12:34 pjb: Who exactly is "we" you keep referring to? 16:12:42 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 16:12:55 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.155.48] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:13:00 Adaptive processing of English can help there. What's the default context in here, upward? 16:13:02 pjb is "we". 16:13:12 hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 16:14:39 -!- alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:14:53 serichsen [~user@hmbg-5f763e64.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:56 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-186-191.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:16:14 alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #lisp 16:21:44 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:21:51 -!- upwardindex [~upwardind@modemcable016.209-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: upwardindex] 16:23:55 aka, he retreats to the shadowy safety found only under his bridge. 16:26:37 SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@VEROXITY.ipcolo1.SanFrancisco1.Level3.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:37 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-blyapifcttzyitky] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:28:11 -!- tfb [~tfb@80.238.0.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:29:07 -!- trigen_ [c1aca602@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.172.166.2] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:29:29 -!- adsf34 [51ae994e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.81.174.153.78] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:34:42 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:44 -!- elliottcable is now known as sad_elliottcable 16:36:50 ehu [~ehuels@109.32.83.66] has joined #lisp 16:36:56 ? 16:37:26 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:38:24 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:38:38 -!- e-user [~e-user@nat/nokia/x-gnxmoqpsomfwxfzl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:38:50 -!- sad_elliottcable is now known as elliottcable 16:40:18 lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@77.17.148.175.tmi.telenormobil.no] has joined #lisp 16:40:31 Mood swings. 16:40:48 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-98-135.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:43:03 -!- alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:44:19 At times I miss something like CASE, but comparing with EQUAL instead of EQL, usually when I have a string key. I wonder if there is some more widely used solution I've been missing (i.e., other than using COND or defining one's own macro)? 16:44:21 people should be more careful about who they label "troll". A person that's difficult is not a troll. 16:44:36 rfg [~rfg@dsl78-143-206-87.in-addr.fast.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:44:59 -!- bandu [~furfag@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:45:10 unless they're difficult all the time 16:45:11 bandu [~furfag@pool-71-164-242-237.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:11 -!- bandu [~furfag@pool-71-164-242-237.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:45:11 bandu [~furfag@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 16:45:53 stepnem: string-case 16:46:10 stepnem: oh, never mind. no, there's nothing you're missing. 16:47:28 msponge [~msponge@nat/google/x-hjdxpctcbemqamse] has joined #lisp 16:48:58 shouldn't be hard to find macros or pkg components that have implement something with the flavor 16:49:53 Yeah, I was just wondering if there was something standardiish or how people usually cope with this. 16:49:58 stepnem: you could intern the string in a package and use symbols in that package as CASE keys 16:50:02 -!- bandu [~furfag@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:50:22 antifuchs: Yeah, I thought about that, too. Do you actually do that? 16:50:25 bandu [~furfag@pool-71-164-242-237.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:25 -!- bandu [~furfag@pool-71-164-242-237.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:50:25 bandu [~furfag@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 16:50:26 ells [~Adium@c-107-3-238-180.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:31 but it's not very likely to be faster. also, clutters up the flat package namespace 16:50:34 might not be worth it 16:50:38 (I don't do it (-:) 16:50:42 cond seems closes basic cl 16:51:08 *closest 16:51:28 Well, you wouldn't intern the candidate, you'd use find-symbol... 16:52:33 true 16:53:12 I'd have set aside a package for those keys, but that might not be necessary 16:54:26 i have some old code that uses packages and require instead of a system definition. i've forgotten, how do you add directories to the path SBCL will search to load packages in a (require 'package-name) type of statement? 16:55:27 *Xach* tries to get to www.sbcl.org to check, is thwarted by apparent www.sbcl.org outage 16:56:11 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-93-62-105.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:56:15 -!- lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@77.17.148.175.tmi.telenormobil.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:56:37 Xach: outrage! 16:56:43 cnl [~cnl@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 16:57:38 Entering week 3 of Lisa sourceforge cvs failure 16:57:39 asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op only works with system definitions, correct? not simple packages? 16:58:09 ells: there isn't really a concept of "simple packages" in any sense in CL. 16:58:28 ells: what "require" does when presented with one argument is implementation-defined. what sbcl does is documented. 16:58:43 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.32.83.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:00:12 sorry, to clarify, when i refer to "simple packages", i mean just a defpackage, no system definition 17:01:31 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-210-183.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:01:45 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:01:53 my poor understanding is that require would look for a package with the given name in a load path i suppose by finding the file the had the defpackage, but now that i type that it doesn't really make sense 17:02:23 ells: http://paste.lisp.org/display/123737 17:02:27 i suppose i really just need to add some load commands into a file and load each set of package explicitly 17:03:02 you could write a system definition too! 17:03:07 :P 17:03:16 tunes [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:03:39 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-181-83.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:03:47 serichsen, Xach: thanks 17:04:18 chiguire|m [~chiguire@190.39.219.179] has joined #lisp 17:04:18 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@190.39.219.179] has quit [Changing host] 17:04:18 chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 17:04:25 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:04:39 ells: files and packages are two different things. 17:06:52 pjb: i _think_ i understand that already just wondered about loading up packages from one or many files and perhaps incorrectly expect require to automate some of that? 17:07:33 ells: REQUIRE with multiple args sort-of does. 17:07:38 lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@46.67.243.252.tmi.telenormobil.no] has joined #lisp 17:08:24 but then, why not just use asdf? 17:08:38 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 17:08:56 right. 17:09:45 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-210-183.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:09:46 jdz [~jdz@host15-105-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:10:09 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-18-22.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:57 -!- zfx- [~zfx@mail.inqmobile.com] has quit [Quit: Be back later] 17:12:43 so the whole point of asdf and system definitions is to outline which files to load and what they depend on and etc. is that the standard way of packaging reusable libraries? 17:12:46 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-210-183.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:13:07 yes 17:13:39 -!- ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 17:19:09 ok, now i'm getting it, so i'm asking stuff about require when really i should just be writing a system definition for loading in these dependent (and old) libraries. then i have my setup where i can develop and have those already defined and loaded up in my REPL 17:19:53 sounds about right 17:21:27 Are there any SBCL socket streams experts on #lisp? 17:21:41 Indeed. Moreover, most implementation hook asdf to their require, so that if you (require "some-system"), it actually loads the asdf system named "some-system"). 17:21:48 that's really the end goal, is "give me the development environment with these dependent packages loaded so i can develop using calls to those package" is there a better way than defining and loading a system for that? saving an image or some such? or is the former sufficient? 17:21:55 reb``: what's your problem? 17:22:23 ells: saving an image can be a nice shortcut, but i don't tend to do it (i don't work with anything that takes *too* awful long to load) 17:22:25 ells: well, nowadays, we just use (ql:quickload "some-system"), since that will also download and install missing systems. 17:22:25 ells: defining and loading the system is the usual way, nowadays. You can save an image to reduce load time. 17:22:40 (ql:quickload also calls asdf when the system is already installed). 17:22:42 ells: I like using a system definition for this, mostly because it allows you to easily switch out the dependent packages without having to rebuild 17:22:42 ells: i wrote a bit about my process here: http://xach.livejournal.com/278047.html 17:23:00 saving an image is cool if you have a ton of libraries and they take a long time to load, though (: 17:23:21 allegro is so fast to load fasls 17:23:35 sbcl is so slow :( 17:23:46 *Xach* crowdsources fastfasls 17:24:04 all: thanks for the confirmation / clarification 17:24:08 Xach: thanks for that link 17:24:14 stassats: I have a master process connected to 300 wotker processes. Initially, I was seeing corrupt data being sent from the master and incomplete data. Both went away when I substituted raw sb-bsd-socket I/O for streams on top of the sockets. 17:25:33 Now I'm likely seeing data from the workers not getting pushed to the master ... the workers are running Slime/swank code, so they are doing streams-based I/O over sockets. 17:25:55 stassats? 17:26:10 -!- foocraft [~ewanas@178.152.109.5] has quit [Quit: so long, and thanks for all the pollution] 17:26:38 do you call FINISH-OUTPUT on your streams? 17:26:53 stassats: I think I'm having trouble with lack of buffer flushing when the kernel doesn't accept data. 17:27:16 stassats: In my code I tried both finish-output and force-output ... didn't make a difference. 17:27:49 Slime/Swank uses finish-output to flush the stream. 17:28:15 ... but it looks like that doesn't always really flush all the data through. 17:30:01 you can use something like wireshark to see what's going on 17:31:02 -!- sohmestra [~david_cly@75-145-242-25-spotsylvania.va.richmond.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has left #lisp 17:31:12 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:31:21 -!- tunes [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:31:44 littlebobby [~bob@unaffiliated/littlebobby] has joined #lisp 17:32:52 milanj [~milanj_@77.243.20.210] has joined #lisp 17:33:19 stassats: Yesterday, I looked at the stream data structure and saw data backed up untransmitted. Wireshark would not help in my environment. 17:33:53 are you sure? 17:34:29 Which part, data backed up or no wireshark? 17:34:34 both 17:34:49 Yes, pretty sure. 17:35:09 have you any better ideas other than firing up wireshark? 17:35:32 it's not exactly hard, and you will be know exactly where the problem lies 17:35:49 I could instrument the SBCL streams code or stare hard at it to figure out why it sometimes fails to flush data. 17:37:19 -!- jdz [~jdz@host15-105-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:37:27 there's the option of not going through SWANK in the workers. 17:38:32 pkhuong: Yes, but I'm leveraging Swank to provide an environment for interactive parallel programming/debugging environment. 17:39:47 The nice thing about Swank is that a condition signaled on a worker can be displayed in Emacs for debugging. 17:39:47 -!- milanj [~milanj_@77.243.20.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:39:51 MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:40:53 reb``: ah, but your main communication channel still doesn't have to go through swank. 17:41:33 That way you can use swank for interactive development/debugging, but not for regular master-slave IO. 17:41:45 pkhuong: Yes, I could evaluate expressions via a side channel and just use Swank for debugging. 17:42:13 ... but Swank's (:emacs-rex ...) is pretty convenient ... 17:42:17 reb``: you could even still evaluate expressions via SWANK. 17:42:51 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:44:11 reb``: the slave-side SWANK thing really interests me, btw. It's be awesome if you could put the code up once it's working-ish. 17:44:16 So which is harder, duplicating Swank functionality to bypass SBCL socket streams, or fixing the bugs in the streams code. Sigh. 17:44:23 zfx [~zfx@host86-166-117-115.range86-166.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:44:23 -!- zfx [~zfx@host86-166-117-115.range86-166.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 17:44:23 zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 17:44:59 bugs, sigh 17:45:04 pkhuong: I've already gotten company clearance to open source it ... will add it to github.com/brown when I get a chance. 17:46:18 reb``: what are you doing with 300 worker processes anyway? 17:46:19 tunes [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:46:42 genetic programming 17:47:39 reb``: another reason to go besides SWANK is that PRINT isn't the best serialisation scheme. 17:49:16 chiguire|m [~chiguire@190.39.219.179] has joined #lisp 17:49:16 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@190.39.219.179] has quit [Changing host] 17:49:16 chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 17:49:20 pkhuong: I know ... I had hoped to get something hacky but stable working quickly, then convert over to something more robust. 17:50:00 Beware the hacky but stable solution that exists for years because it's good enough. 17:50:13 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-105.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:50:41 ChibaPet: You mean like Unix? 17:50:57 In that case, it's still easier to avoid deadlocks if you write your own (loop (print (eval (read *master*)) *master*) (finish-output *master*)) than checking all of SWANK. 17:51:05 *ChibaPet* directs his nose upwards. 17:51:15 if it's good enough, why change it? 17:51:42 pjb - just so, he's designing something new with the intent of changing it soon 17:52:52 pkhuong: Swank centralizes I/O in a couple of functions. 17:57:24 mapval [~mapval@host236-54-dynamic.37-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:57:27 hi 17:57:40 i can't find the function that truncate a float number after a decimal 17:57:53 like (trunc 0.1231 2)=> 0.12 17:58:00 there is any function like that? 17:58:41 -!- seangrove [~user@c-98-248-33-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:59:16 only for the printed representation, I believe. 17:59:16 (/ (truncate (* 0.1231 100)) 100.0) => 0.12 17:59:21 but do you want to print it? 17:59:23 this sounds, dangerously, like you're trying to deal with money. 17:59:37 (format t "~,2f" 0.1231) => 0.12 17:59:45 also, yeah, you probably shouldn't be doing this with the internal representation 17:59:46 mmm 17:59:51 not for printing 18:00:11 stassats, i've though about your solution, 18:00:16 but there is a better function to do that? 18:00:24 no 18:00:30 ok, thank you 18:00:36 (* (floor 0.1231 100) 100.0) 18:00:36 why yhis is dangerous, anyway? 18:00:46 (* (floor 0.1231 0.01) 100.0) even 18:01:00 obviously 18:01:13 ah, dang. try it yourself until you've figured it out. 18:01:16 i need a break :) 18:02:29 mapval: because floats enjoy violating your assumptions from time to time (: 18:02:31 H4ns: i posed before: (/ (truncate (* 0.1231 100)) 100.0) 18:02:43 mapval: what does it mean to truncate a float if the "truncated" value is representable as a float? 18:02:45 especially after adding a couple. 18:03:07 *stassats`* want to write "posted", but "posed" will suit too 18:03:12 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-39-196.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:03:36 My only line from Coders at Work that I've ever seen quoted: "like the Spanish Inquisition, no one really expects floating point." 18:03:49 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 18:03:49 hahaha 18:04:02 gigamonkey 18:04:05 i can't understand. 18:04:14 I've to produce a random value between 0 and 1 18:04:15 H4ns: with floor you'll get (/ (floor (* -0.1231 100)) 100.0) => -0.13 18:04:18 minion: floating point 18:04:24 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:04:50 but not number like 0.1213213123123222 18:04:52 so long. 18:04:55 just 0.12. 18:05:11 mapval: but why do you want that? 18:05:26 (/ (random 100) 100.0) 18:05:37 if i want to put that number in an array 18:05:43 or rather (/ (random 101) 100.0) 18:05:44 If you just don't want to print all those digits, (format t "~,2f" whatever) 18:05:52 it's pretty nast see all that long number, when i'm concern only about the first two decimal 18:05:59 gigamonkey, In your professional programming career, have you ever seen someone use (in a serious application) floats to represent monetary quantities? 18:06:01 But if you want there to only "be" two digits, you're not understanding how floating point numbers work. 18:06:19 maybe 18:06:21 :-\ 18:06:25 Qworkescence: my net worth doesn't fit into a bignum! 18:06:26 Qworkescence: I have not. But I haven't worked on the kinds of software were folks would fall into that trap. 18:07:13 stassats`, (if (< (net-worth :stassats) *most-positive-bignum*) ...) 18:07:28 Qworkescence: I do... Well, I think the unit I'm manipulating is money, but the industrial partner never told me ;) 18:07:37 pkhuong, haha 18:08:00 mapval: in CL you also have the option of using rationals. 18:08:25 mmm 18:08:45 I.e. if what you really want is a number between 0 and 1 in increments if 1/100ths: (/ (random 100) 100) 18:08:49 can you explain me why haven't sense to use floating in this case? 18:09:03 mmm 18:09:06 this is a good solution 18:09:13 floats don't represent 0.2 as 2/10 internally. rationals can. (: 18:09:17 have you read "what every computer scientist should know about floating point?" 18:09:24 nope 18:09:28 You should. 18:09:30 because if you haven't, please do, and save the good people here from explaining what it says 18:09:49 omg you people have so much free time 18:09:53 mapval: Would you consider keeping the same nickname from day to day? 18:09:57 that paper is good. also, there was a bunch of handy guidelines for handling floats safely for which I've misplaced the link unfortunately. 18:10:00 i should, xach? 18:10:01 gigamonkey, what if I want a random value between 0 and 1 correlating with a Gaussian distribution??? 18:10:18 mapval: It's helpful to me. 18:10:31 Qworkescence: well then you probably want floats but you need to understand what they can and cannot do. 18:10:38 i can't understand why it could be helpful to you, but ok 18:10:40 -!- mapval is now known as Vaaal 18:10:46 gigamonkey, (I'd still use rationals) 18:12:37 Qworkescence: could be that'd work too. There are (as far as I can tell) only two reasons to use floats: 1) as a speed hack, if you know what you're doing or 2) because you're doing math that necessarily results in irrational numbers, which are then much more easily approximated via floats. 18:13:04 *gigamonkey* is not a numeric analyst and doesn't play one on the web 18:13:27 gigamonkey, I'd argue irrationals are much better approximated with rationals :) 18:13:55 but you're one of them continued fraction people. 18:14:06 Clearly so since floats are themselves rational numbers. 18:14:20 Well, floating point values are intervals rather than numbers. 18:14:20 phax [~phax@adsl-68-73-148-217.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:21 -!- phax [~phax@adsl-68-73-148-217.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:14:21 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 18:14:25 gigamonkey, That's not strictly true, but that's being picky 18:15:19 Zhivago: not under division. 18:15:38 gigamonkey, pi is well approximated here as a rational :) https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/numericl/src/9133438cd02b/src/experimental/pi-chudnovsky.lisp 18:15:56 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-144-144.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 18:16:05 Qworkescence: depends, I guess, on whether you're thinking of individual floats as an interval (a la Zhivago) or a specific rational value which approximates an uncountable infinity of nearby irrational numbers. 18:16:25 agspathis [~user@ppp-94-64-154-6.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 18:16:59 who can give an advice about this little function i just wrote? -> http://paste.lisp.org/display/123740 18:17:23 Vaaal, the indentation is wrong 18:17:26 -!- agspathis [~user@ppp-94-64-154-6.home.otenet.gr] has left #lisp 18:17:30 i know 18:17:33 Vaaal: don't use CamelCase 18:17:38 agspathis [~user@ppp-94-64-154-6.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 18:17:43 No? 18:17:50 mmm ok, how i should write instead? 18:17:52 use-lisp-case 18:17:55 Vaaal: I like to map-into, for that sort of initialisation. 18:18:00 create-random-array 18:18:06 mmm 18:18:10 ok 18:18:23 map-into, i will look for it 18:18:37 (map-into (make-array length) (lambda () [compute value])). 18:18:59 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Client Quit] 18:19:19 and consider specialising the vector if you know that you'll only want single-floats in it. 18:19:38 how can i specialising it? 18:20:15 :type? 18:20:21 Vaaal: :element-type 18:20:24 kjjjoaaaaaaaaa;;;;;;;;;;;j 18:20:34 thank you 18:20:35 Sorry. One year-old. 18:20:52 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:21:57 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181056239.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:22:16 Joreji [~thomas@83-096.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:23:42 -!- altctrldel [~windows7@64.291.511.08.ilec.adsl2.net.ru] has quit [Quit: see ya later] 18:25:13 -!- DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:27:54 paradoja [~paradoja@acceso-cmp174-200.lpa.idec.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:30 Does Neonsquare (Jochen Schmidt) hang around here? 18:30:04 drdo: very, very rarely 18:30:06 drdo: he used to, from time to time 18:30:12 I haven't seen him in a long time though 18:30:22 mel-base seems pretty neat 18:30:28 it is! 18:30:36 was wondering if he was interested in STARTTLS support 18:31:20 sounds like a good addition 18:31:33 /act 18:32:24 oooh. After playing with imapfilter, this mel-base thing looks pretty appealing :) 18:32:56 I hope IMAP designers die a horrible death 18:33:13 That RFC was painful to read 18:34:28 drdo: designed by a lisp nerd. 18:34:44 Xach: that is plain obvious in the protocol, i didn't even need to check :P 18:34:52 agspathi` [~user@ppp-94-64-154-218.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 18:34:56 lists and NIL everywhere 18:35:03 plists everywhere 18:35:20 oh, yep, I remember IMAP being reasonably horrifying 18:35:39 claims to support multiple users and be asynchronous 18:35:52 but server can only send stuff as a reply 18:35:56 "Let's make a protocol that does EVERYTHING. But leave out a few things, so that we can have four revisions and random vendor enhancements" 18:36:06 doesn't report mailbox deletion/creation 18:36:18 Vaaal, http://pastebin.ch/6631 18:36:55 -!- agspathis [~user@ppp-94-64-154-6.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:37:46 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.128.231] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 18:39:21 -!- curious_corn [~ecausaran@84-53-64-50.adsl.unet.nl] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:39:26 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:39:35 bleakgadfly [d16302a5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.209.99.2.165] has joined #lisp 18:39:58 pjb_ [~pjb@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 18:40:21 -!- paradoja [~paradoja@acceso-cmp174-200.lpa.idec.net] has quit [Quit: Bye] 18:40:24 another old picture of John McCarthy http://pdp-1.computerhistory.org/pdp-1/index.php?f=showitem&id=26.90&l=1&popupwin=1 18:41:40 What does he do these days? 18:42:19 He is a pretty old fella. 18:42:27 Apart from having existencial crisis (i assume everyone does at that age? I do and i'm only 21) 18:42:31 -!- MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:43:07 I think he's nearing his final existential crisis 18:43:20 In 2001 he wrote a terrible story about robots, I know that much. 18:43:29 (he's really very old by now) 18:43:32 I hope i get really bored with life when i'm old 18:44:07 I'd hate to be enjoyed it like fuck and knowing i have a few years left at best 18:45:01 Just be pro-active and avoid the situation. 18:45:26 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA3562C.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:45:41 Zhivago: by killing myself or by trying to find a way to cure ageing? 18:45:51 Whichever you prefer. 18:46:07 Or possibly you could have your brain altered to make you bored. 18:46:11 anvandare [~anvandare@78-21-49-154.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 18:49:05 alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #lisp 18:50:35 He's actually a robot 18:50:47 He figured out the whole AI thing, and kept it to himself 18:51:16 He left lisp around so that those who deserved to ascend, could. 18:51:48 His biological form dissipated into the aether long ago 18:52:05 rofl 18:52:41 -!- Vaaal [~mapval@host236-54-dynamic.37-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:52:42 -!- lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@46.67.243.252.tmi.telenormobil.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:54:19 -!- rfg [~rfg@dsl78-143-206-87.in-addr.fast.co.uk] has quit [Quit: rfg] 18:54:20 lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@46.67.243.252.tmi.telenormobil.no] has joined #lisp 18:54:46 http://www.cafepress.com/+hooded_sweatshirt_with_john_mccarthy,13898070?pid=4740463 18:56:38 phax [~phax@adsl-68-73-148-217.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:38 -!- phax [~phax@adsl-68-73-148-217.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:56:38 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 18:56:42 Not to be confused with 'hooded sweatshirt with joe mccarthy' 18:57:04 -!- peearr 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joined #lisp 20:04:37 -!- littlebobby [~bob@unaffiliated/littlebobby] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:04:50 -!- Guest72979 [~drake01@115.246.200.202] has quit [Client Quit] 20:08:27 mstevens [~mstevens@ceres.etla.org] has joined #lisp 20:08:27 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@ceres.etla.org] has quit [Changing host] 20:08:27 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 20:09:12 -!- lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@77.16.33.126.tmi.telenormobil.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:10:22 alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #lisp 20:11:26 drake01__ [~drake01@115.246.200.202] has joined #lisp 20:12:10 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:12:44 nikodemus: how many responses so far? 20:14:37 161 20:15:18 MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:15:35 -!- drake01__ [~drake01@115.246.200.202] has quit [Client Quit] 20:15:51 what non-linux platform did you have in mind? 20:16:17 Can anyone build ecl ? 20:16:30 this is kind of interesting: https://chart.googleapis.com/chart?cht=bhs&chs=345x210&chbh=24%2C6&chco=e46f6f%7Ce98a8a%7Cdf5353%7Cd00000%7Cd51c1c%7Cda3737&chxt=x%2Cy&chxl=0%3A%7C0%7C14%7C28%7C42%7C56%7C70%7C84%7C1%3A%7COver%20%24500%7C%24100%20-%20%24500%7C%2450%20-%20%24100%7C%2420%20-%20%2450%7C%245%20-%20%2420%7C%240%20-%20%245&chxs=0%2C000000%2C12%2C0%2Clt%7C1%2C000000%2C12%2C1%2Clt&chds=0%2C84&chd=t%3A8%2C71%2C49%2C26%2C8%2C0 20:16:35 drdo: its author probably can 20:16:40 openbsd would be nice, if they decide at last to finish the new thread system 20:17:02 hypno: primarily darwin and solaris, both x86[-64] 20:17:25 Hmm. Are there corporate contributors lurking in there? ;) 20:17:28 nikodemus: as in too few $100-$500 ? 20:17:54 nah :) the linear progression on the non-linear scale 20:18:08 that is what I would expect! 20:18:29 and what would the external format modifications be ? 20:18:38 but you're a physicist! 20:18:41 yes! 20:19:09 money is a non-negative quantity -- so I'd tend to expect the log of money to be a more interesting measure, just on symmetry grounds 20:19:34 galdor: support for BOM marks and faster conversions 20:19:35 I mean obviously money is a bit more complicated than that, but ... :-) 20:19:46 nikodemus: and newline conventions? :-) 20:19:53 oh, that too 20:20:02 nikodemus: arent both of those already supported? or are they not good enough? 20:20:03 -!- agspathi` [~user@ppp-94-64-154-218.home.otenet.gr] has left #lisp 20:20:09 ah that's already a bit more interesting :) 20:20:21 nikodemus: what are we responding to? 20:20:32 josemanuel [~josemanue@39.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 20:20:33 neither newline conversions nor BOM marks are supported as of today 20:20:51 drake01__ [~drake01@115.246.200.202] has joined #lisp 20:20:56 excellent? 20:21:00 (and UTF-* conversions are abominably slow) 20:21:09 in the future i'd be ready to pay to improve support on OpenBSD, but that won't be necessary before several months 20:21:20 I tried to argue once for UTF-* everywhere and then saw the light. 20:21:40 but that's just a pain 20:21:57 just a lot of pain. 20:22:24 -!- drake01__ [~drake01@115.246.200.202] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:22:30 -!- quasisane [~sanep@c-76-24-80-97.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:22:55 drake01__ [~drake01@115.246.200.202] has joined #lisp 20:26:48 -!- drake01__ [~drake01@115.246.200.202] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:26:51 -!- anvandare [~anvandare@78-21-49-154.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:28:00 n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@46.158.89.38] has joined #lisp 20:30:28 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-46-38.iburst.co.za] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:33:34 Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-38-170.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:33:54 lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@77.16.33.126.tmi.telenormobil.no] has joined #lisp 20:34:00 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:35:16 quasisane [~sanep@c-76-24-80-97.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:56 tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 20:36:05 drake01__ [~drake01@115.246.200.202] has joined #lisp 20:37:02 -!- SuChek_ [~SuChek@unaffiliated/suchek] has left #lisp 20:37:43 chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 20:38:00 -!- paradoja [~paradoja@223.Red-81-36-17.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:38:48 -!- drake01__ [~drake01@115.246.200.202] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:43:45 -!- maxm- [~user@p84-72.acedsl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:44:57 maxm- [~user@p84-72.acedsl.com] has joined #lisp 20:45:46 anvandare [~anvandare@78-21-54-225.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 20:47:18 -!- maxm- [~user@p84-72.acedsl.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:48:48 drake01 [~drake01@115.246.154.39] has joined #lisp 20:50:16 Hello, Dragons! 20:50:46 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-007-180.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:52:42 I'm new to threading. What is the idiom for a threadB notifying a threadA it has exited? 20:52:53 ... on SBCL 20:53:21 -!- barryfm [~barryfm@fl-71-2-133-215.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has left #lisp 20:56:09 mon_key: you can join on the thread, use a mutex/condition-variable/flag combination, or look into barriers. Try reading a book on pthread programming. 20:56:35 e.g. if I bind the threadB object to a variable in threadA I can then query with sb-thread:thread-alive-p waiting until it isn't and the (sb-thread:join-thread ) but I'm pretty sure that binding is dirty. 20:57:47 -!- anvandare [~anvandare@78-21-54-225.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:01:04 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.241] has joined #lisp 21:01:30 -!- Guest73062 [~ivan@143.106.196.241] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:03:59 -!- drake01 [~drake01@115.246.154.39] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:07:55 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:08:40 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:13:05 pkhuong: so if i mutex in threadA and release it when threadB exits I still don't get how does threadB let threadA know shes done? I guess I could create another which threadB takes hold of on entry and release when done but, "now i have two problems..." Is this the kind of headache people talk about w/r/t threading or am I missing something obv? 21:13:45 create a structure and use lexical scoping to share it between threads? 21:13:54 so close over it? 21:15:42 -!- rolando [~user@230.50.103.87.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:18:41 -!- ells [~Adium@c-107-3-238-180.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:18:52 ells [~Adium@c-107-3-238-180.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:03 majuscul1 [~dylan@cpe-68-175-88-163.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:22:21 How can I increment a character? 21:22:37 eg k->m 21:22:59 create an array with characters and pick the next one? 21:23:21 oh that's actually a good idea 21:23:28 (code-char (1+ (char-code #\k))) 21:23:32 is there a way to do it with character numbers though? 21:23:34 ahhhh 21:23:38 that's what i was lookig for 21:23:41 thank you 21:23:45 welcome 21:24:26 -!- HG` [~HG@p5DC04F78.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:27:30 -!- ch077179 [~ch077179@unaffiliated/ch077179] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 21:27:32 unicode [~user@95.214.73.53] has joined #lisp 21:28:15 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:29:11 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:29:44 unicode, oh unicode 21:29:51 may all your code points shine forever 21:30:14 ch077179 [~ch077179@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 21:32:03 mon_key: get bordeaux-threads, use make-condition-variable, condition-wait, and condition-notify. Or look up the sbcl equivalents that it calls 21:32:07 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:32:48 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@39.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 21:32:51 (however, BT is nonportable when it comes to multiple threads are waiting on the same cv, which is lame) 21:33:21 just use a semaphore. thread A: (signal-semaphore thread-a-done) thread B: (wait-on-semaphore thread-a-done) or (try-semaphore thread-a-done) 21:33:24 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 21:34:18 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 21:34:39 nikodemus:Thanks! 21:34:43 Phoodus: pkhuong: Thanks too! 21:34:50 -!- zanea [~zanea@122.58.39.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:35:07 What's the opposite of code-char 21:35:15 code-char 21:35:15 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:35:19 char-code 21:35:29 yeah sorry 21:35:46 chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 21:35:47 majuscul1: :) happens to me _all_ the time! 21:36:58 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 21:37:16 -!- msponge [~msponge@nat/google/x-hjdxpctcbemqamse] has quit [Quit: msponge] 21:38:41 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:39:49 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.241] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 21:39:54 -!- unicode [~user@95.214.73.53] has left #lisp 21:44:12 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-168-188.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:47:08 msponge [~msponge@nat/google/x-wfpudnzwtbwynwls] has joined #lisp 21:47:24 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:48:20 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:48:28 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:48:53 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 21:49:46 nikodemus: pkhuong: w/r/t sb-thread:wait-on-semaphore, when the SBCL manual says, "Else blocks until the semaphore can be decremented." Does this mean that the waiting thread is unavailable/inactive for other operations? 21:49:58 yes 21:49:58 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-183-29.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 21:50:06 -!- msponge [~msponge@nat/google/x-wfpudnzwtbwynwls] has quit [Client Quit] 21:50:15 if you just want to check if the other thread is done without waiting, use try-semaphore 21:52:32 there's also a stark lack of timeout options on many of these APIs 21:53:22 zmv [~daniel@c95334de.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 21:54:30 zanea [~zanea@210-86-94-112.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:54:31 FWIW what i'm trying to do is execute a sb-ext:run-program over a bunch of image files, the files might be large and it might take awhile, i'm operating under the assumption that doing this in a separate thread is the way to go. 21:55:32 run-program launches a completely separate process. you should be able to either block (optionally w/threaded blockers) or poll them to see when they finish 21:56:10 of course, you probably only want as many running as you have cores available 21:56:16 or else you'll just slow everything down 21:56:56 processes or threads? 21:57:06 OS processes 21:57:31 the run-program process is :wait t 21:58:32 do :wait nil then? or call run-program from $NUM_CORES threads, pulling from a job list of things to do 21:59:03 Is there a format directive to print the current index during list iteration? 21:59:57 Phoodus: its fine if the external commands run synchronously... I'm not in a hurry. 22:00:36 then why wouldn't (mapc (lambda (filename) (run-process ..)) filenames) work? 22:00:55 that'll just do one at a time until they're done 22:01:00 season w/error checking to taste 22:02:26 -!- trigen [~MSX@87.209.144.213] has quit [] 22:05:42 Phoodus: I had (map 'list ) at first but I figured I should maybe begin coming to grips with threads esp. as in an ideal world resorting to sb-ext:run-program is a stop-gap :) 22:06:37 the use case: http://paste.lisp.org/+2NHE 22:06:42 if it's a thread learning process, then I'd go for the job-list that multiple threads pull from 22:07:42 so maybe Pcall? 22:08:04 Xach: ping 22:10:18 Hey, do you know if there is a function that allows you to know which sub-functions are called inside an expression ? 22:12:09 -!- felipe [~felipe@unaffiliated/felipe] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:12:41 -!- ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:13:04 The_third_man: well, TRACE allows you to turn on tracing for specified functions 22:13:18 so you'll get a tree of those you marked to watch 22:13:26 but it won't list any other functions 22:13:49 What's another name for a "node" in a tree? 22:13:51 there's probably also profiling & debugging tools specific to your CL implementation 22:13:56 there's xref 22:14:06 gigamonkey: branch? 22:14:07 gigamonkey: "branch" is sometimes used 22:14:29 there's also "dot" in "dot and line graph" 22:14:30 branches + leaves == nodes ? 22:14:50 gigamonkey: you could get snooty with "nodule" :P 22:14:58 in that parlance, a branch is a node with children. a leaf is a node with no children 22:15:01 I'm trying to avoid "node" when discussing a search tree because later I'm going to talk about "nodes" of a constraint satisfaction graph. 22:15:06 Phoodus : I already looked inside sb-profile, there is no such thing 22:15:22 gigamonkey: vertex? 22:15:24 gigamonkey: pivot point? 22:15:27 (yeah, I am working on profiling) 22:15:55 Xach: http://common-lisp.net/~sionescu/files/split-sequence-1.0.tar.gz 22:16:05 maybe just "element"? Hmmm. 22:16:08 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-186-191.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:16:18 third man: sb-sprof:report can also show you which functions called which 22:16:48 gigamonkey: you could take the XML approach and call it an event 22:16:56 note, not sb-profile, but sb-sprof. (require :sb-sprof) and take a look at the manual 22:17:33 yeah 22:17:57 gigamonkey: I think root/branch/leaf as node types works well for being tree-specific without the word "node" in them 22:18:01 mon_key: sadly, I'm trying to make things more clear rather than less. ;-) 22:18:02 I think I'll have in any way to read inside the call stack from what I see 22:18:08 vertex is intuitive to me at least 22:18:17 foocraft [~ewanas@178.152.109.5] has joined #lisp 22:18:40 gigamonkey: well then "maximum binary event trajectory" prob. won't help 22:18:57 -in any way 22:19:17 The_third_man: you can always throw an error in one of your deep functions, and the stack trace will show you what was called to get there 22:19:42 there's also a "get backtrace to here" type function in sbcl 22:20:07 also beware optimization flags that can neuter information from the stack 22:20:40 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-74-67-199-254.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:21:18 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:21:39 Is there a simple way to do e.g. (format t "~{~(idx) ~a~}" my-list) that I'm missing? 22:21:57 Where idx is the index of the current element in a? 22:22:14 Actually I am writing a wrapper around sb-profile, and I would like to add an option to profile the sub-functions 22:22:35 DelPuerto [~youguy@81.pool85-51-145.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 22:23:38 am0c [~am0c@218.51.116.50] has joined #lisp 22:24:16 *redline6561* hits his head with clhs some more 22:24:28 gigamonkey: intuitively vertex seems right. FTR I get really confused when authors talk about graphy type stuff using terms like root/branch/leaf/node/element etc. 22:24:31 redline6561: I don't think so 22:25:02 -!- majuscul1 [~dylan@cpe-68-175-88-163.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:25:16 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:25:28 hypercube32 [~hypercube@231.125.189.72.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:26:59 Xof: Yeah. That's the sense I'm getting. Thanks. 22:28:12 -!- alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:29:41 phax [~phax@adsl-68-73-148-217.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 22:29:45 -!- phax [~phax@adsl-68-73-148-217.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:29:45 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 22:31:32 sdaone [~sdaone@h216n2fls31o933.telia.com] has joined #lisp 22:31:53 felipe [~felipe@unaffiliated/felipe] has joined #lisp 22:32:23 The_third_man: one thing I did was trace-package and untrace-package, which goes through all the symbols in a given package, tracing those which are fboundp. Worked fairly well 22:32:26 alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #lisp 22:32:35 -!- DelPuerto [~youguy@81.pool85-51-145.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 22:33:51 -!- jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.56] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:34:01 -!- alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 22:34:16 -!- MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:34:23 Phoodus, yeah, it already exists in sb-profile, if you specify a string naming a package, it will profile all the functions inside this package. But my idea is to also profile functions in other packages, or allow profiling around function that are not in a specific package 22:35:03 The_third_man: how do you find a non-specific package? 22:35:21 right. Problem with the statistical profiler is that you might miss a number of quick calls, if you want a full tree 22:35:34 yeah, that's why I avoid using it :p 22:35:56 oh, sb-profile, not sprof 22:36:15 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 22:36:27 mon_key, the idea is when you specifically profile a function (created in the repl for instance), it will also profile sub-function that are called by this function 22:36:48 this way, you have the time spent inside the function, and the time spent inside the sub-functions 22:37:24 The_third_man: that sounds like tree-shaker/walker territory 22:38:29 what is it ? 22:39:07 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:39:44 Xach: http://common-lisp.net/project/bordeaux-threads/releases/bordeaux-threads-0.8.1.tar.gz 22:40:10 which reminds me of the GG search I made earlier for pthreads + lisp: 22:40:12 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3897010229726822034 22:40:16 The_third_man: the statistical profiler gets you the information with less overhead, but if you're set on using sb-profile, you can use sb-introspect:find-function-callees to get the information 22:40:40 oh, thanks :) 22:41:29 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@183.106.96.61] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:41:38 The_third_man: "Debugging Backwards in Time" maybe not unlike what your chasing 22:41:58 -!- hypercube32 [~hypercube@231.125.189.72.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:42:09 peearr [~aaron@159.153.4.51] has joined #lisp 22:43:16 yup mon_key :D 22:44:00 -!- tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:44:25 xan_ [~xan@66.201.52.88] has joined #lisp 22:46:10 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.198.166] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 22:48:28 -!- sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:51:26 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:55:07 PokeTron [~PokeTron@unaffiliated/poketron] has joined #lisp 22:55:36 -!- PokeTron [~PokeTron@unaffiliated/poketron] has left #lisp 22:57:57 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA285EC.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:58:14 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:58:17 setmeaway [~setmeaway@183.106.96.61] has joined #lisp 22:58:49 -!- The_third_man [~The_third@ram94-12-78-234-200-168.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:59:06 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 22:59:35 The_third_man [~The_third@ram94-12-78-234-200-168.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:41 -!- The_third_man [~The_third@ram94-12-78-234-200-168.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:01:22 I was wondering... would you pay (and how much) for kind-of "programmer's grimoire", that would contain a well indexed, condensed information about algorithms, datastructures, protocols etc. with examples, and which could be used on a tablet and searched easily (including various terms and indexes that use the problem to be solved as key) 23:01:43 The_third_man [~The_third@ram94-12-78-234-200-168.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:58 MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:02:27 like man info and emacs on an ipad/phone/droid thingy? 23:04:15 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:04:30 mon_key: kind of. Designed to be useful when trying to sketch a solution to a problem etc. 23:04:41 sketch? 23:04:54 mon_key: metaphorically speaking 23:05:00 hypercard! 23:05:27 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.119.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:05:30 while there is Wiki, it's not always as comprehensive and organized... 23:05:47 alexmagnus_ [~anonymous@alice.ipq.co] has joined #lisp 23:05:49 (the whole thing came to me from reading "Algorithm Design Manual") 23:05:59 nicdev_ [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:06:20 -!- ells [~Adium@c-107-3-238-180.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:06:46 ells [~Adium@c-107-3-238-180.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:56 -!- ells [~Adium@c-107-3-238-180.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has left #lisp 23:07:16 maybe make it a personal wiki and provide a ready-made "programming" bundle 23:07:46 -!- alexmagnus [~anonymous@2001:888:10f4:0:318e:4844:3622:1372] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:07:46 -!- alexmagnus_ is now known as alexmagnus 23:08:15 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:08:47 rfg [~rfg@dsl78-143-206-87.in-addr.fast.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:11:02 p_l|backup: http://radar.oreilly.com/2010/03/the-ipad-needs-its-hypercard.html 23:12:51 yeah, I can see that, though frankly speaking, iPad isn't exactly my preferred target 23:13:16 mrSpec [~Spec@pool-151-204-255-122.bstnma.btas.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:13:16 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@pool-151-204-255-122.bstnma.btas.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 23:13:16 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 23:15:13 as for hypercard for iPad/whatever... I was thinking of making a "program generator" targeting specific area that would provide executables for Android and iOS 23:15:53 p_l|backup: :) assuming this "book of hours" were developed I'm pretty sure that its content would eventually get "harvested" to those platforms whether this is the intent or not... 23:16:46 -!- MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:16:58 dnolen [~davidnole@98.14.92.234] has joined #lisp 23:17:27 p_l|backup: David O'toole blocks stuff would be a neato interface that the java types could use to perform UML style masturbation with 23:17:30 tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 23:17:36 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-220-99.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:09 -!- Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:19:34 Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:48 Do iOS and Android support reasonable offline webpage reading? I always wonder why people go for apps instead of simple web solutions 23:28:19 not offline 23:28:59 unless it's actually an application with HTML5 offline mode 23:29:00 Phoodus: I always wonder why people go for web/networked solutions in lieu of a desktop application... 23:29:22 and yes, this I would prefer as an application, for speed and convenience 23:30:41 mon_key: simple informational interaction via the web can be handled on pretty much any user computational device in use today 23:30:49 apps need to be rewritten per device/platform 23:32:02 anyway, a true p2p online-or-offline information dissemination package needs to come out at some point 23:32:26 make actual use of this whole internet thing, instead of walled-in fads 23:35:00 -!- xan_ [~xan@66.201.52.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:35:24 ChibaPet [~mason@c-68-58-147-105.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:27 Phoodus: that you are pining for a "true p2p online-or-offline information dissemination package" kind of belies your assertion that "the web can be handled on pretty much any user computational device in use today" 23:36:04 -!- Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:36:26 xan_ [~xan@66.201.52.88] has joined #lisp 23:36:33 Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:19 Phoodus: FWIW I think the current trend in OSdesktop design towards more HTML/js oriented interfaces is a really _bad_ thing. 23:38:29 but it's so easy! 23:40:03 it it? Can HTML5 run an irc client? 23:40:33 if your irc server complies with the same-origin policy things, I think it could (: 23:40:35 webchat.freenode.net 23:40:48 Is the difference between do and do* the same as with let and let* (parallel vs. sequential variable binding) 23:40:51 ? 23:41:07 do* is exactly like do except that the bindings and steppings of the vars are performed sequentially rather than in parallel. 23:41:12 says the hyperspec (: 23:41:40 d'oh I'm blind got that page open right now m( 23:41:47 no worries (: 23:42:30 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:42:38 well it's late and i spent the last 2.5 hours or so fixing up all those setfs for proper lets 23:42:56 only one function left, but it may be the hardest^^ 23:42:58 replore [~replore@ntkngw133234.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:43:34 Aaaand, I'm going to do that one tomorrow since my head is all fuzzy. 23:45:08 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 23:47:47 this is the type of stuff that is gonna come back an bite html5 in the ass: "The best representation of the number n as a floating point number is the string obtained from applying the JavaScript operator ToString to n." 23:48:20 pnq [~nick@AC81E02D.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 23:48:56 fullets [~fullets@eth59-167-133-99.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:47 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:52:18 -!- xan_ [~xan@66.201.52.88] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:54:55 xan_ [~xan@66.201.52.88] has joined #lisp 23:55:06 -!- ymas [~ymas@unaffiliated/ymas] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:55:10 mon_key: granted, we've used that format in serialization a number of times 23:55:54 it's quite easy, and the number of decimal places to print to ensure bit-for-bit replication between 2 systems is known 23:56:36 of course, as we go for more performance, dumping out ieee binaries comes into the picture, but we haven't bothered with that yet 23:57:21 -!- benny [~benny@i577A8D74.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:58:50 ymas [~ymas@93-97-25-213.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:59:09 -!- ymas [~ymas@93-97-25-213.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Changing host] 23:59:09 ymas [~ymas@unaffiliated/ymas] has joined #lisp