00:03:32 -!- ocharles [u411@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hqkjrwqfvvvuktaz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:04:42 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 00:07:15 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@ip68-109-29-26.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:39 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 00:09:58 pavelludiq [~pavelludi@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 00:10:18 zmv_ [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has joined #lisp 00:10:46 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has quit [Client Quit] 00:10:53 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 00:12:04 (ql:quickload "cl-yacc") 00:12:08 woops 00:12:40 Ah ah! Parsing we are! 00:12:54 quicklisp has a nasty glitch 00:13:11 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:14:06 -!- kslt2 [~Sierka1@netblock-208-127-156-174.dslextreme.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:14:06 i've been using it with clisp, I installed clozure, and by loading quicklisp all the files in dists/quicklisp/installed were deleted 00:14:31 Joreji [~thomas@83-096.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 00:14:33 i still have the actual packages but i cant use them without quickloading them again from either clisp or clozure 00:14:40 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.59.249.188] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:14:43 Strange. I routinely use different implementations (including clisp and ccl) without quicklisp problems. 00:15:05 You must always quickload them. (or asdf load them). 00:15:28 Mococa [~Mococa@187.59.249.188] has joined #lisp 00:16:00 it actually downloads them again 00:16:08 It should not. 00:16:31 it does, like I said all the files in dists/quicklisp/installed disappeared 00:16:51 There's a quicklisp mail list. 00:16:54 and I can't load them with asdf before downloading them again (thus recovering the deleted file in instaled/" 00:17:10 -!- zmv_ is now known as zmv 00:20:15 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:20:42 grr: If you can reproduce it, I'd love to hear more. 00:20:58 I too use many different implementations without seeing that kind of behavior. 00:23:08 acelent` [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:ddfc] has joined #lisp 00:23:36 -!- acelent [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:ddfc] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:24:14 I'll try reproducing it 00:24:20 it's on windows btw 00:24:20 mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-076-182-089-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:24:41 Ahh, yes, there was an issue there. 00:24:57 I think I fixed it, though maybe I didn't. Are you using the latest Quicklisp client? 00:25:12 I did quite a few things 00:25:55 among them reinstalling quicklisp client too. perhaps that caused it 00:26:32 or maybe it was caused before by an earlier version 00:26:44 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:27:21 does quicklisp.lisp contain version number? searching for version came up short 00:27:22 grr: The issue was (is?) that clozure has a particular syntax for namestrings that isn't applicable to other CL implementations. I think I changed things to work around that. I'll check my commit logs. I last worked on it a few months ago. 00:27:57 grr: (ql:update-client) will tell you. 00:28:59 i already upgraded to latest version (after the fact) so that won't help 00:29:23 grr: It is one way to find out what version you are using. 00:29:45 (ql::local-version) will also show it 00:29:50 anyway after reloading all the libraries they work in both clozure and clisp. I don't know what caused that 00:30:24 Ah yes, https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-client/issues/36 is the open bug for the problem. 00:30:45 grr: It depends on which lisp you use to do the installation. 00:31:04 grr: clozure's namestrings are not syntax-compatible with clisp's (nor are they required by the spec to be) 00:31:13 oh 00:31:31 ocharles [u411@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-smgcqmqtjzpzpfrv] has joined #lisp 00:31:44 I used clozure to install them 00:31:51 and can access them from clisp 00:31:54 didn't try the other way around 00:32:08 hmm, well, that's surprising to me, but i guess it will depend on which projects you install. 00:33:30 zmv_ [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has joined #lisp 00:34:10 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-140-208.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 00:35:35 well i've tried loading a dozen of them, they all work 00:35:46 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:35:55 -!- zmv_ is now known as z- 00:36:14 hu.dwim.rdbms might not 00:36:21 anything with a dot in the system name 00:37:55 -!- z- is now known as zmv 00:40:02 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 00:46:29 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@ip68-109-29-26.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:46:29 -!- orivej [~orivej@91.79.210.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:46:51 -!- n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@46.158.200.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:48:00 -!- taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:48:42 that one fails to load for unrelated issues (iolib) 00:50:42 -!- sral [cfed4bef@gateway/web/freenode/ip.207.237.75.239] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:51:24 -!- __main__ [~main@adsl-99-173-15-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:53:07 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@ip68-109-29-26.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:55:27 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: 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reset by peer] 01:31:42 -!- zmv_ [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:33:05 setmeaway [setmeaway3@183.106.96.61] has joined #lisp 01:33:49 zmv [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has joined #lisp 01:34:06 -!- setmeaway [setmeaway3@183.106.96.61] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:36:04 setmeaway [~setmeaway@183.106.96.61] has joined #lisp 01:36:36 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-69.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:38:26 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:38:49 zmv [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has joined #lisp 01:39:06 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-69.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:41:11 wtetzner [~wtetzner@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:08 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.35.238.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:47:03 -!- wtetzner [~wtetzner@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:48:59 In a lisp, what sort of things comprise the lexical context? Vars? Local functions? Return-to values? What's the exhaustive list? 01:49:28 foocraft_ [~ewanas@78.100.242.255] has joined #lisp 01:49:34 not return-to values, blocks. 01:49:42 symbol macros, macros. 01:50:29 also tagbody tags. 01:50:44 -!- foocraft [~ewanas@178.152.100.186] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:55:24 xxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.1.223] has joined #lisp 01:56:24 How are unwinds/unwind-protect generally implemented? A second "stack", or something interleaved into the "stack"? 01:57:23 -!- anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:59:01 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.14.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:59:45 Modius: have a look at http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/MetaCircular.html 01:59:52 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.14.86] has joined #lisp 02:00:05 Modius: you have the source of most CL implementations. Go see by your self and report statistics! 02:00:50 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 02:01:22 -!- littlebobby [~bob@unaffiliated/littlebobby] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 02:03:31 -!- xxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.1.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:03:44 anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has joined #lisp 02:06:02 Modius: it can be implemented as anything that's convenient to the implementer. 02:06:56 pjb: Yeah. They logically have to be their own stack, and I guess they need to be addressible for some sort of "unwind to point X" to be used by other constructs. 02:09:46 Why does it have to be a separate stack, and not a specially-tagged point in the main stack? 02:09:51 Notice that implementations may consider that non-local exits don't occur often, so they may optimize the local exit case. Which means, that they can decide to use the normal stack, and just do a sequential search in it, when they need to unwind a non-local exit. 02:12:18 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A3964.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:14:03 -!- Siliconjesus [~Jeremy@henle2.scs.uiuc.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:15:08 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:15:37 cfy [~cfy@125.123.21.183] has joined #lisp 02:15:37 -!- cfy [~cfy@125.123.21.183] has quit [Changing host] 02:15:37 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 02:15:52 pjb: Is that common? 02:19:11 Why don't you read the source of SBCL, CCL, ECL, clisp, ABCL, XCL, etc and tell it? :) 02:19:20 s/it/us/ 02:19:27 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-58-167.lns3.dea.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 02:20:36 -!- pavelludiq [~pavelludi@87.246.58.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:32:57 pavelludiq [~pavelludi@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 02:38:18 kruhft [~burton@S0106002401f331bd.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:38:40 if i want to forward declare a function to remove a warning, how might i do that? 02:38:57 i tried (declaim (function myfunction)) at toplevel but that doesn't seem to work 02:39:05 any ideas? 02:45:07 guess nobody is home 02:45:20 -!- kruhft [~burton@S0106002401f331bd.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 02:47:24 -!- rolando [~user@226.139.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has left #lisp 02:48:44 -!- pavelludiq [~pavelludi@87.246.58.193] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:52:23 Zhivago [~zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 02:53:47 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-qixvviatgnafvvhb] has joined #lisp 02:53:47 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-qixvviatgnafvvhb] has quit [Changing host] 02:53:47 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 02:57:20 benny [~benny@i577A8F75.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 02:59:55 kruhft [~burton@S0106002401f331bd.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:00:57 el-maxo_ [~max@p5DE8D0D4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:03:37 -!- el-maxo [~max@p5DE8ED84.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:03:58 pavelludiq [~pavelludi@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 03:10:46 -!- yroeht [yroeht@server5.tonbnc.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:12:26 -!- fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:13:22 i might have missed a response to my question so any reposts would be appreciated 03:13:57 What warning is this? 03:15:13 ; caught STYLE-WARNING: 03:15:14 ; undefined function: GET-SUBTREE 03:15:16 from sbcl 03:15:29 basically a function being used before it's declared 03:15:43 You could just put them in a file. 03:16:16 i'm looking for a way to declare them, in case of circular references....ie one function calls another that's declared after it 03:16:36 fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 03:16:51 i saw how to do it once but i can't recall how it was done 03:17:08 i thought it might be (declaim (function myfunction)) but that doesn't seem to be it 03:17:29 any ideas? 03:17:51 -!- rakete [~user@static.228.2.63.178.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:18:04 yroeht [yroeht@server5.tonbnc.fr] has joined #lisp 03:19:59 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 03:23:20 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@static-50-43-53-7.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 03:23:20 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@static-50-43-53-7.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [Changing host] 03:23:20 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 03:23:25 -!- pavelludiq [~pavelludi@87.246.58.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:27:35 beach [~user@ABordeaux-552-1-119-240.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 03:27:42 Good morning everyone! 03:27:57 evenin' 03:29:55 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-xzhwgupgurbccllp] has joined #lisp 03:30:23 doc_who: Did you solve your problem with binary trees? 03:30:55 [back in may] 03:40:33 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:42:25 -!- Zhivago [~zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:53:42 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 03:54:42 leo2007 [~leo@114.247.10.76] has joined #lisp 03:55:18 <_3b> kruhft: (declaim (ftype ... myfunction)) maybe? 03:55:36 *_3b* isn't sure exactly what goes in ... though, maybe something like (function) 03:56:39 *_3b* would probbaly just try to reorder the function definitions though, or put them in 1 file if mutually recursive 04:01:00 Zhivago [~zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 04:02:14 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:05:56 then again, it's just a style warning. 04:07:33 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:08:01 -!- Zhivago [~zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:08:25 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:21:20 -!- Hunden [~Hunden@e180100036.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:24:51 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has quit [Quit: good night everyone] 04:25:04 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@static-50-43-53-7.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 04:25:04 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@static-50-43-53-7.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [Changing host] 04:25:04 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 04:25:31 Hunden [~Hunden@e180096003.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 04:44:12 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-74-67-199-254.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:44:21 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:45:56 declaring (ftype function myfunction) is sufficient 04:47:38 ympbyc1 [~ympbyc@122-57-179-116.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:52:11 -!- ecraven [~user@140.78.42.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 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known as finnrobi 07:12:03 -!- chp [~chp@110.204.165.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:12:29 lanthan [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:14:55 alama [~alama@86.93.35.187] has joined #lisp 07:15:42 anthracite [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/anthracite] has joined #lisp 07:16:37 anyone tried to build sbcl 1.0.50 on mac os x 10.7? 07:16:50 -!- ympbyc1 [~ympbyc@122-57-179-116.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:17:14 -!- tessier [~treed@216.105.40.125] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:17:22 -!- foocraft_ [~ewanas@78.100.242.255] has quit [Quit: default SIGPORTAL handler] 07:18:08 ecraven [~user@140.78.42.213] has joined #lisp 07:18:34 tessier [~treed@216.105.40.125] has joined #lisp 07:19:48 foocraft [~ewanas@78.100.242.255] has joined #lisp 07:19:58 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 07:21:42 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-1-216.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined 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[~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-58-167.lns3.dea.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 08:11:01 EyesIsMine [~eyes@unaffiliated/eyesismine] has joined #lisp 08:12:31 nullman [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:15:59 daniel___ [~daniel@p5082BB25.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:16:19 val448 [~val@host150-186-dynamic.22-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 08:16:47 what's the difference between using :initarg and :initform and just :default-initargs ? 08:16:55 -!- val448 is now known as Vaaaal 08:18:06 -!- daniel_ [~daniel@p5082BB2C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:18:11 Holy fuck. 08:18:16 http://cryptome.org/0005/dod-lisp-sol.htm 08:18:18 Vaaaal: from a practical perspective, the difference is in the placement of the defaults - either near the slot declaration or in the class declaration. 08:18:40 Vaaaal: there are some subtle technical references, but they don't matter in practice. keene has a description iirc. 08:19:04 i'm reading keene right now 08:19:08 i've it under my eyes 08:19:15 and to me seems the same 08:19:32 in a practical way... 08:19:57 Vaaaal: right. in a practical way, using one or the other is a matter of style 08:20:01 i means, when i make-instance, initargs+iniform and default-initargs acts the same 08:20:06 <_3b> i think it has different implications for subclasses overriding defaults 08:20:08 ok, i thought i was missing somethink 08:20:16 *something :D 08:20:21 *_3b* doesn't remember the details though 08:20:22 _3b: how? 08:20:41 _3b: that's the subtle technical difference i've forgotten about, too :) 08:20:46 <_3b> can you override slots to change the :initform in a subclass? 08:20:58 sure 08:21:32 you can 08:21:39 <_3b> and it doesn't make a new slot? 08:21:49 _3b: you can override any part of a superclass slot declaration, i think. underneath, the plists are just appended. 08:22:44 _3b, i can't understand what are you saying 08:23:04 <_3b> Vaaaal: well, i don't really know what i'm saying either :) 08:23:08 :D 08:23:24 if in a subclass you override a slot, the slot shadow the superclass slot 08:23:26 _3b: no, if a subclass declares a slot with the same name as a superclass' slot, that slot is redefined for the subclass. 08:23:34 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-028-037.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:23:50 _3b: "redefined" not being a very precise term, admittedly. 08:23:51 yep 08:23:54 _3b, I have some very preliminary code gluing CLWS to Hunchentoot (o7 proto, usocket-vs-iolib, integration issues), whcih makes FF6 think it has established a connection. 08:24:19 btw, this keene's book is a great book. 08:24:19 <_3b> deepfire: cool 08:24:39 *_3b* needs to read keene one of these days :/ 08:24:52 it's really short 08:24:57 230 pag 08:24:59 : ) 08:25:04 _3b, no frame exchange just yet, but I think at least 40% of hurdles has been overcome, and the rest should be more or less predictable. 08:25:09 Vaaaal: i agree, although in this particular case, she's not explicit about the fact that :initform vs. :default-initargs is a matter of style. 08:25:23 yep, infact i ask you for help :) 08:25:26 <_3b> deepfire: was hoping to get around to looking at clws soon, since the protocol seems to be stabilizing 08:26:20 _3b, I've chose to degrade operation mode to synchronous, as hunchentoot is thread-per-client anyway. 08:27:14 <_3b> deepfire: not sure that is a good long-term strategy, since ws connections tend to last longet than http connections 08:27:41 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 08:28:07 i think hunchentoot is not really a good platform for large-scale websocket applications anyway 08:28:43 for small-scale (dozens of simultaneous connections), the thread-per-connection approach should be okay, though. 08:28:57 H4ns, it's a shame not to have this functionality in Hunchentoot at all, though.. 08:29:20 deepfire: shame certainly is not the right word. 08:29:40 *_3b* would like to at least be able to share a port with hunchentoot 08:29:49 I hadn't a clue how to marry thread-per-client with the radical asynchronicity of CLWS. 08:30:26 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d003677.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:30:40 <_3b> i was assuming there would just be a small bit that attaches to HT, and checks for UPGRADE, then dumps the socket in a queue for clws to deal with 08:31:03 <_3b> so the HT thread considers the connection done and goes away at that point 08:31:05 _3b: that sounds like the right approach. is there anything in hunchentoot that prevents this from being done? 08:31:21 <_3b> H4ns: mainly that ht uses usocket and clws uses iolib 08:31:33 _3b: and they can't coexist? 08:31:33 about lambda list in defgeneric function: using &key, i've tu use AT LEAST the same number of keywords in all the method function, but i've tu use also the same name for the keywords? 08:31:53 *_3b* assumes one could extract a raw fd from one and pass it to the other, just hasn't looked into how to actually do that yet 08:32:03 Vaaaal: yes. unless you have &allow-other-keys in the defgeneric definition. 08:32:09 thank you 08:32:19 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.116.187] has joined #lisp 08:32:24 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.116.187] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:32:27 <_3b> i'd like to refactor clws to see if it could optionally use usocket though, so in that case just both using the same socket lib might be better 08:32:37 -!- Vaaaal [~val@host150-186-dynamic.22-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: http://irc2go.com/] 08:32:46 _3b: iolib certainly has the potential to scale better. 08:33:10 <_3b> usocket would also allow easier windows support until iolib windows port is done 08:33:30 <_3b> H4ns: how so? 08:33:37 *_3b* doesn't know anything about usocket 08:34:02 git://git.feelingofgreen.ru/{clws,hunchentoot}, although I'm not terribly sure how much that is lagging from my laptop. 08:34:03 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 08:34:30 _3b: usocket is very inefficient when handling lots of file descriptors. 08:35:03 _3b: at least it was when i last looked, and it was also pretty buggy in that respect. i'm not even sure whether usocket's select properly supports windows. 08:36:02 _3b: without select(), usocket is stable, if not terribly efficient. again, if you're just looking for dozens of connections, you should be fine with it. but for hundreds or thousands, you need a different architecture and i would not recommend usocket unless you're prepared to hack it. 08:36:34 <_3b> hmm 08:38:32 gko [~gko@60-251-71-121.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 08:40:44 Vaaaal [~Vaaaal@host150-186-dynamic.22-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 08:46:15 i've a question that might be stupid 08:46:28 can i connect in someway excel with lisp? 08:46:51 OR there's a way to make graphic with lisp? 08:46:58 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-028-037.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:47:46 -!- parabolize [~paraboliz@203.83.50.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:48:20 <_3b> Vaaaal: rdnzl seems to be able to talk to ms office stuff, judging by the examples at http://weitz.de/rdnzl/ 08:48:45 thank you 08:48:48 Vaaaal: with lispworks, you can do both relatively easily 08:48:56 uhm 08:48:58 really? 08:48:59 <_3b> Vaaaal: and there are things like vecto for creating graphics files from lisp 08:49:16 _3b are you referring to rdnzl or lispworks? 08:49:29 ah 08:49:31 tfb [~tfb@80.238.0.145] has joined #lisp 08:49:31 vecto, sorry 08:49:32 :) 08:49:43 thank u 08:51:03 -!- taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:51:51 pavelludiq [~pavelludi@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 08:52:26 trigen [c1aca602@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.172.166.2] has joined #lisp 08:57:42 -!- Vaaaal [~Vaaaal@host150-186-dynamic.22-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: http://irc2go.com/] 08:59:02 -!- pavelludiq [~pavelludi@87.246.58.193] has quit [Read error: 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[~textual@n138182.science.ru.nl] has joined #lisp 09:16:16 -!- anthracite [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/anthracite] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:16:38 alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #lisp 09:24:11 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.53.243] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 09:26:11 EyesIsMine [~eyes@unaffiliated/eyesismine] has joined #lisp 09:29:56 Joreji [~thomas@83-096.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 09:32:09 serichsen [~user@hmbg-4d069726.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:32:11 Hello! 09:32:58 -!- alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:34:28 -!- foocraft [~ewanas@78.100.242.255] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:34:31 alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #lisp 09:42:20 -!- EyesIsMine [~eyes@unaffiliated/eyesismine] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:44:34 kisp [~user@g231209032.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:46:57 anthracite 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[~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 10:14:46 yello serichsen 10:19:12 -!- alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:20:26 alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #lisp 10:26:06 -!- zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has quit [Quit: Be back later] 10:27:15 zfx [~zfx@mail.inqmobile.com] has joined #lisp 10:27:16 -!- zfx [~zfx@mail.inqmobile.com] has quit [Changing host] 10:27:16 zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 10:33:17 -!- gko [~gko@60-251-71-121.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:34:57 fourier [~user@213.141.149.93] has joined #lisp 10:35:38 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 10:36:32 -!- ehine1 [~ericyoda@cpe-69-205-154-161.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:39:05 val860 [irc2gowebc@net-93-148-129-98.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #lisp 10:39:13 hi 10:39:28 some hours ago i asked about graphs in lisp, and you advice lispwork 10:39:48 i mispelling what i mean: i would know about CHARTS in lisp 10:39:59 like pie chart or something like that 10:41:17 val860: adw-charting can do some stuff like that. 10:41:27 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 10:42:08 thank you 10:42:45 mmm, seems simply and nice 10:44:28 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:45:24 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 10:47:55 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-059-098.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:48:31 MimiEA [~Mimi@97-88-6-2.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 10:48:50 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@static-50-43-53-7.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 10:48:50 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@static-50-43-53-7.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [Changing host] 10:48:50 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 10:49:22 -!- Joreji [~thomas@83-096.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:50:45 -!- xxxyyy 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[~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: nicdev_] 11:39:23 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-219-182.w90-54.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:40:11 -!- DelPuerto [~youguy@131.88.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 11:40:16 ngz [~user@209.141.80.79.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 11:42:42 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.34.214.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:45:19 PokeTron [~PokeTron@unaffiliated/poketron] has joined #lisp 11:46:20 foocraft_ [~ewanas@78.100.231.233] has joined #lisp 11:47:19 -!- foocraft [~ewanas@78.100.250.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:53:34 Is there a way to find the callers of a setf function in Slime or SBCL? 11:59:22 serichsen: i'm afraid no 11:59:44 ouch 12:00:14 and not because of slime, sb-introspect:who-calls doesn't seem to work 12:01:15 leyyer_su [~user@125.69.125.203] has joined #lisp 12:01:33 -!- fourier [~fourier@213.141.149.93] has quit [Quit: Quit] 12:01:41 and looks like I have a fix for it 12:02:05 yay 12:02:10 -!- alfa_y_omega is now known as betta_y_omega 12:02:41 it was comparing names using EQL, just changing it to EQUAL does it 12:02:56 *stassats* goes to figure out how to commit with the new git-workflow 12:03:06 stassats: Cool. Thanks! 12:03:10 -!- val860 [irc2gowebc@net-93-148-129-98.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:09:37 serichsen: alright, should be fixed in Git 12:10:23 (my first sbcl-git commit, i hope i got it right) 12:10:53 *Xach* pulls & rebuilds 12:11:16 you can just rebuild contribs 12:11:32 It only takes 90 seconds, who cares? 12:11:42 *Xach* cackles 12:11:47 green party! 12:12:18 heh 12:12:55 -!- MimiEA [~Mimi@97-88-6-2.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:13:18 and 90 seconds is fast! 12:15:24 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:16:44 Night-hacks [~nullpoint@95.38.52.69] has joined #lisp 12:16:56 hi 12:17:59 sometimes when i load my file with C-c C-l it says one of my variables "is being redefined" ! 12:18:19 seems something related to SLIME 12:18:48 it says or it pops up a debugger? 12:19:04 rolando [~user@20.75.103.87.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 12:19:09 are you using defconstant? 12:19:10 debugger 12:19:11 -!- zmyrgel [~user@193.64.112.22] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:19:35 yeah it's defconstant 12:19:45 use defvar instead 12:20:24 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:20:29 Night-hacks: use defconstant if it is a constant, and live with the warning. 12:20:51 H4ns: it's not a warning in SBCL 12:21:13 -!- PokeTron [~PokeTron@unaffiliated/poketron] has left #lisp 12:21:14 H4ns: it's error i think. 12:21:19 <_3b> or use alexandria:define-constant if it is a constant but not constant enough for the spec 12:21:48 i only use defconstant for optimization purposes 12:22:03 -!- ineiros [~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:22:06 so what's the point in defconstant ? 12:22:13 stassats: you could at least suggest defparameter. defvar is for variables that are changed by the program. 12:22:26 <_3b> use defconstant for things that are constant per the spec (numbers and such) 12:22:36 Night-hacks: sbcl is particularily picky here, rendering defconstant hard to use. 12:23:19 defmacro define-constant (name value &optional doc) 12:23:19 "Make sure VALUE is evaluated only once (SBCL)." 12:23:19 `(defconstant ,name (if (boundp ',name) (symbol-value ',name) ,value) 12:23:19 ,@(when doc (list doc)))) 12:23:28 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 12:23:29 H4ns: that's why i suggested it, if you don't want it to be changed, just don't export it 12:23:50 the leading paren is missing 12:24:04 don't paste into the channel 12:24:30 *_3b* likes alexandria's version better anyway 12:24:53 show us 12:24:56 <_3b> better to have a warning when you try to redefine it with a value that isn't at least similar to what was already there 12:25:50 and if you actually want to change the value of defconstant, you would need to recompile everything what uses it 12:26:14 defconstant is pretty much unnecessary in normal programs 12:26:46 stassats: it is more the documentary value of the word "defconstant" than a technical necessity. 12:27:13 I used them for .e.g +mode-rd+ 12:27:22 stassats: unnecessary doesnt mean to be a problem 12:27:38 for read bit 12:27:41 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-54-189.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:27:51 H4ns: right, but it's not a big enough pro to outweigh the cons 12:27:58 personal preference 12:28:40 H4ns: and you can have +foo+, even if it's a variable 12:30:37 *_3b* wonders if sbcl's "redefining special to be a constant' warning should be an error for locked packages 12:31:19 <_3b> or if it should allow globally making a symbol from a locked package special or constant in the first place 12:32:19 sral [2669c8fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.38.105.200.252] has joined #lisp 12:33:41 <_3b> making printer control variables constant seems to be a good way to break things :p 12:33:54 Night-hacks: I would usually use C-c C-c on individual toplevel forms instead of reloading an entire file. 12:34:22 serichsen: is C-c C-c enough ? 12:34:34 Night-hacks: Enough for what? 12:34:50 C-c C-l is not enough, you should use C-c C-k for enoughness 12:35:05 and C-c C-c is enough for a single definition 12:35:43 -!- alama [~textual@n138182.science.ru.nl] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 12:35:50 Um. Can someone please define "enough" before we proceed? 12:35:51 *_3b* votes that C-c C-c is not enough, you should also know about M-C-x and C-x C-e 12:36:06 stassats: that's undefined 12:36:30 M-C-x might be too much, it redefines defvar 12:36:37 <_3b> M-C-x is important, since it is the only one that reevaluates defvar forms (resetting the value even if already set) 12:36:39 Night-hacks: you should run it in files 12:36:54 yeah it's in file 12:36:57 serichsen: enough to get the code into the image 12:37:08 Night-hacks: but you pressed C-c C-k in the REPL 12:37:14 <_3b> C-x C-e is useful particularly in the C-u C-x C-e form, which inserts the results of the last form into the buffer 12:37:35 that's right i think i entered wrong key 12:37:51 I think that we are off on several tangents here. 12:37:57 <_3b> or maybe a better description would be "evaluates the form before point and inserts the output" 12:38:27 cool slime feature time: if you redefine a defconstant, you can do M-x slime-who-references RET x, and then press C-c C-k, it will recompile all the places where that constant is used 12:38:40 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.116.187] has joined #lisp 12:38:50 also known as C-c C-w C-c 12:39:08 i should really use xref more 12:39:12 <_3b> not C-c C-w C-r? 12:39:20 you're right 12:39:22 taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has joined #lisp 12:39:51 Jasko3 [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 12:39:57 i usally use M-x rgrep instead of xref 12:41:00 -!- yakov [~yakov@ip-83-149-3-87.nwgsm.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:41:43 why C-c C-C doesn't tells about compilation fail ? 12:41:54 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.116.187] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:42:25 because it didn't fail? 12:42:47 stassats: it fails 12:43:22 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:43:33 my C-c C-c output : Compilation finished. (No warnings) [0.01 secs] 12:44:00 and C-c C-k output: Compilation failed: 2 warnings 1 style-warning [0.03 secs] 12:44:27 Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-219-182.w90-54.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:44:33 Night-hacks: C-c C-c compiles and loads a single toplevel form. C-c C-k compiles and loads all toplevel forms in the file. 12:45:07 serichsen: just the under the cursor stuff's ? 12:45:14 Night-hacks: So, it seems that the toplevel form at your current point is OK, but there are errors elsewhere in the file. 12:46:50 C-c C-c also can compile marked (selected) code 12:46:51 Night-hacks: I guess that you could say it like that, for some definition of "cursor stuff". 12:48:29 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-059-098.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:49:21 serichsen: some grammer issues ... 12:50:27 What's the best idiom to find the index of an array that has the maximal value, rather than the maximal value itself? (An argmax, essentially) 12:51:21 by array i assume a vector? 12:51:48 arnsholt: I don't know. I would use loop. 12:51:57 and sadly, there's no idiom 12:51:58 Yeah. C has poisoned my brain 12:52:28 <_3b> iterate can do it directly, loop you need to track the index/max by hand 12:52:44 Thanks! 12:53:01 Can't be arsed to install and figure out iterate right now, so I'll just do the loop-thing 12:53:16 i would use (position (reduce #'max sequence) sequence) 12:53:32 *_3b* thought alexandria had something, can't find it though 12:53:45 in case i didn't care about performance 12:53:45 Oooh. Nice one stassats. That fits better in a let as well 12:54:28 on SSC, it would be fast 12:54:55 Ah yes, the elusive SSC. 12:55:05 I don't care much about performance yet. Besides that's an O(n) operation that I'll do after my O(T*Q*Q) algorithm is done, so it probably won't matter much 12:55:35 SSC? 12:55:38 _3b: cl-utilities has extremum, but it's for a different job (getting the object that has the extreme value rather than the value itself) 12:55:46 "would somebody please think about the constant costs!" 12:56:03 <_3b> Xach: wasn't that the task? 12:56:14 <_3b> ah, index instead of object itself 12:56:48 right 12:56:55 <_3b> i guess iterate might not do that either, was thinking of the 'find the object' problem 12:56:59 -!- Night-hacks [~nullpoint@95.38.52.69] has left #lisp 12:57:24 Davidbrcz_ [~david@ANantes-151-1-221-244.w90-54.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:57:57 serichse` [~user@hmbg-4d0695a4.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:06 -!- taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:58:27 -!- serichse` is now known as serichsen` 13:00:00 stassats: I'll think about it eventually (my code is dog slow). But my first priority is getting the right result. Fast and wrong is easy 13:00:06 Ideally I'd like fast and correct =) 13:00:15 -!- serichsen [~user@hmbg-4d069726.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:00:21 who doesn't 13:00:48 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-219-182.w90-54.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:01:04 -!- serichsen` is now known as serichsen 13:01:24 green party! 13:01:47 fast means it consumes less resources! 13:02:12 sounds suspiciously like nuclear power to me 13:03:14 zmv_ [~Telefonic@187.34.55.53] has joined #lisp 13:04:12 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:04:22 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-076-182-089-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:04:55 -!- dlila [~dlila@CPE0014d1c9243c-CM001bd71cede2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:05:21 -!- sral [2669c8fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.38.105.200.252] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:05:44 dlila [~dlila@CPE0014d1c9243c-CM001bd71cede2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 13:05:45 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.34.55.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:05:49 -!- zmv_ is now known as zmv 13:08:07 ehu [~ehuels@109.33.15.217] has joined #lisp 13:08:15 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:08:37 zmv_ [~Telefonic@187.34.55.53] has joined #lisp 13:11:27 -!- curfont [~q@oh.yeeaaaah.org] has left #lisp 13:11:35 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.34.55.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:12:20 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.33.15.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:12:24 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 13:13:06 -!- Joreji [~thomas@83-096.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:14:26 -!- pavelludiq [~pavelludi@87.246.58.193] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:14:29 SuChek [~SuChek@unaffiliated/suchek] has joined #lisp 13:14:52 Joreji [~thomas@83-096.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:18:07 sellout [~Adium@195.91.111.15] has joined #lisp 13:19:04 mstevens [~mstevens@ceres.etla.org] has joined #lisp 13:19:04 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@ceres.etla.org] has quit [Changing host] 13:19:04 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 13:20:47 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:20:50 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-xzhwgupgurbccllp] has left #lisp 13:21:04 ineiros [~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 13:23:07 -!- anthracite [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/anthracite] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:24:44 agspathis [~user@ppp-94-64-150-39.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 13:26:43 anthracite [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/anthracite] has joined #lisp 13:28:19 -!- zmv_ is now known as zmv 13:29:36 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 13:30:06 pavelludiq [~pavelludi@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 13:30:56 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:38:52 ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has joined #lisp 13:43:47 -!- Evanescence [~chris@122.237.7.174] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 13:45:34 antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-2925099284.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 13:48:34 Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.247.105] has joined #lisp 13:49:00 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 13:55:24 yakov_ [~yakov@ip-83-149-3-239.nwgsm.ru] has joined #lisp 13:55:48 dnolen_ [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 13:56:09 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.247.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:57:24 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.34.55.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:59:32 -!- pavelludiq [~pavelludi@87.246.58.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:59:56 -!- betta_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:00:18 -!- dlila [~dlila@CPE0014d1c9243c-CM001bd71cede2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:00:41 spearalot [~spearalot@c83-248-137-60.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:01:22 -!- trigen [c1aca602@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.172.166.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:01:49 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-riaumvbtbrrauyrg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:02:25 alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #lisp 14:02:31 Nuclear power? Excellent! 14:11:41 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-69.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:12:17 pavelludiq [~pavelludi@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 14:12:31 Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.247.105] has joined #lisp 14:13:16 lichtblau [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 14:14:16 Xach: I'm assuming that you're familiar with the way cffi has a uffi.asd hidden in a subdirectory. Is quicklisp (and asdf as set up by quicklisp) in general fine with that approach for compatibility libraries, or does it get confused? 14:14:54 lichtblau: that uffi.asd is blacklisted because it's not compatible with uffi. 14:15:04 I'm fine with it if it works. 14:15:42 OK. I'm asking because iolib might have a usocket.asd somewhere in its repo in the future. 14:16:31 we obviously need a lispy ./configure 14:16:34 It shouldn't get used in preference to actual usocket by default though. 14:16:47 *Xach* will wait & see 14:17:12 ql:update-alternatives ? 14:17:13 With asdf-install that just worked, because asdf-install checked only top-level .asds. The new-style recursive stuff people are doing seems to break that use case. 14:17:13 :D 14:17:29 *Fade* wonders what became of xcvb 14:21:12 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@c83-248-137-60.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 14:22:10 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-134-35.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:27:28 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Quit: rpg] 14:28:09 Fade: in use at ITA, i believe. 14:30:06 -!- leyyer_su [~user@125.69.125.203] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:31:43 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-58-167.lns3.dea.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:31:52 ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:33:42 Xach: is there a new QL release coming? 14:34:08 loke: yes. 14:34:17 Xach: Okay. when? :-) 14:34:26 I hope to do it by Sunday. 14:34:49 I think I've fixed the gbbopen and f2cl problems. 14:34:54 Xach: do yoiu have some testsuite you run that checks all the packages before relsase? 14:35:11 loke: my testsuite is called "Does it build?" 14:35:19 which isn't too bad so far 14:35:33 *Xach* has found & reported many a bug that way 14:35:57 *el-maxo_* has built some freaky shit 14:36:45 pkhuong: ahh. Fare has been pretty silent for a long time. I was thinking that maybe it got scrapped when ITA got absorbed. 14:36:57 sometimes when you code for days in C and then finally complile that fucker it feels almost as if you are giving life to a new, although retarded, life form! 14:37:27 unpredictable and all 14:41:37 loke: is there an update to which you are particularly looking forward? 14:41:58 Xach: Hunchentoot runing out-of-the-box on ABCL :-) 14:42:13 like lives dangerously. 14:42:15 :) 14:42:18 s/like/loke 14:42:50 fade: yeah, especially given the fact that I also have requirements on CLOSER-MOP which doesn't currently run properly on ABCL :-) 14:42:56 So yeah, I'm coding for the future 14:43:59 loke: won't work :( 14:44:01 -!- dnolen_ [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:44:09 dnolen_ [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 14:44:27 loke: requires unreleased updates to bordeaux-threads 14:44:27 Xach: hunchentoot still doesn't run even with the new QL? 14:44:33 ah yeah 14:44:38 I had to patch that manuallt 14:44:59 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 14:45:12 I couldn't get cffi working either. What's required to get that up on ABCL? 14:45:35 Xach: you need a native library that acts as the glue between JNI and FFI 14:45:40 Where can I get that? 14:45:45 Or read more about it? 14:45:57 Not sure, you have to ask easyE I think. I never had the need to use it 14:46:45 You need it for hunchentoot, right? 14:46:52 Nope 14:46:57 hmm 14:47:04 Runs fine for me 14:47:18 ahhh, only if you want the ssl bit 14:47:25 ah yes 14:47:28 *Xach* had not pushed :hunchentoot-no-ssl 14:47:29 no sane person compiles hunchentoot without the no-ssl feature 14:47:45 (except LispWorks users) 14:47:51 lichtblau: without or with? 14:48:08 I have never tried using the SSL stuff in huchentoot 14:48:37 *sykopomp* wonders what the problem is with compiling HT without :h-n-ssl 14:48:38 -!- Joreji [~thomas@83-096.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:48:45 does it, like, give windows users problems or something? 14:48:53 -!- foocraft_ [~ewanas@78.100.231.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:49:27 fg 14:50:23 -!- dnolen_ [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen_] 14:50:31 ^z 14:50:33 vaaaal [~vaaaal@host165-14-dynamic.22-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:50:45 hi 14:50:51 do you think is better lispbox or lispworks? 14:51:00 leo2007 [~leo@114.247.10.77] has joined #lisp 14:51:09 vaaaal: you are asking an apple vs. oranges question. 14:51:44 vaaaal: if you're on windows, lispworks or Clozure CL are good choices. 14:52:19 why, H4ns? Both are lisp enviroment, or not? 14:52:32 Xach: I haven't tried, but https://github.com/twall/jna has download links 14:52:39 lichtblau: thanks 14:53:28 vaaaal: yeah, like apples and oranges are both fruit. seriously, lispbox is an (unmaintained) attempt to create a lisp "distribution", whereas lispworks is a commercial lisp compiler. 14:54:27 and can we compare lispwork and clozure cl? 14:54:30 -!- leo2007 [~leo@114.247.10.77] has quit [Client Quit] 14:54:36 yes. 14:54:40 i wanna change the enviroment, and i don't know how tho choose. 14:54:41 vaaaal: i can. 14:54:41 :) 14:54:41 vaaaal: No need to. CCL is better ;) 14:54:46 I like CCL. 14:54:53 *to 14:54:54 *H4ns* likes ccl, too 14:54:58 mm 14:55:01 everybody like ccl 14:55:06 CCL is excellent. i use it in places that sbcl won't (yet) go. 14:55:08 but if i'd be interested in windows, i'd propably use lispworks. 14:55:12 vaaaal: Well, this channel is OSS-centric. 14:55:28 -!- mburke [~max@S0106000c41f2f3de.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:55:29 mmm 14:55:32 CCL is stable on Windows these days, isn't it? 14:55:35 I thought clisp was the best free lisp for windows 14:55:39 vaaaal: I hear Lispworks getting recommended for distributed desktop windows applications. 14:55:41 I haven't tried CCL much. What makes it good? 14:55:47 rsynnott: i'd say so. 14:55:47 I like oranges better than apples. 14:55:57 mm 14:56:00 loke: it supports threads everywhere it runs. 14:56:01 since it has a nice treeshaker, and CAPI (a gui application library) 14:56:08 Fade: good point 14:56:22 Fade: anything else which is not related to its wider platform support? 14:56:23 loke: it's stable; supports Windows and other platforms fully; faster than CLISP; compiles quickly 14:56:23 ccl doesn't avy gui library? 14:56:30 loke: active development, fast native-code compiler, helpful community, good platform support 14:56:37 vaaaal: if you are interested in creating native windows gui applications in limited time, chose lispworks. 14:56:48 rsynnott: Yeah, and with Cocotron, you can even make cross-platform Win/Mac GUIs to some extent. 14:56:53 choose even 14:56:53 vaaaal: I see a lot of talk of using Cocotron with it -- but I haven't heard the same excitement, compared to CAPI. 14:57:02 mm 14:57:08 vaaaal: if you're on OSX, ccl has a very impressive objective-c bridge with bindings to the system widgets. 14:57:19 Isn't CAPI "first class" on X and Mac OS as well? 14:57:19 sellout: oh, has anyone actually done that? I remember thinking it was an interesting possibility 14:57:23 does CAPI work with the free trial of lispworks? 14:57:29 on windows, you'll be using *graphics-library-here* 14:57:32 ChibaPet: it is. 14:57:36 rolando: yes. 14:57:42 Fade: they seem to put work into getting it to work nicely with cocotron, so it can be cross-platform. 14:57:45 thanks 14:57:54 maybe I should give it a try one of these days 14:57:58 any work on getting it working with GNUStep? 14:58:05 sykopomp: that's good news. the last time I looked, the cocoa bindings weren't working with cocoatron. 14:58:07 i like this chate becuase the simple question become an endless conversation :-D 14:58:11 would be amusing if a pseudo-cocoa became a viable cross-platform UI solution 14:58:22 rolando: LispWorks (and most companies) will let you try more before you buy if you ask them nicely. 14:58:22 Fade: I haven't tried it myself. I just skim openmcl-devel. 14:58:45 the other problem being that cocoatron wasn't working on linux the last time I looked. 14:59:14 Xach: the problem is that, even thought I know lispworks has discounts for students (or was it franz?) I don't have money to buy a license 14:59:30 so I would feel like I was cheating them :P 14:59:47 *sykopomp* just writes web-based applications these days. 14:59:49 I doubt my university has a campus license for lispworks 15:00:24 I know it has with microsoft and sicstus (prolog) 15:00:25 Fade: cocotron provides core framework analogs on linux, but not AppKit, IIRC 15:00:39 I'm not sure if providing AppKit on Linux is even on the roadmap, though it'd be nice 15:00:59 shame that Apple killed off the non-NeXT OpenStep target stuff 15:01:27 -!- faux [~user@host-217-214-227-119.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:01:38 -!- zqwell [~kafergots@FL1-119-241-244-73.chb.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:01:57 to me seems clozure cl is more or less like lispbox, right? (this might be SO trollful) 15:02:15 vaaaal: no. Stop talking about lispbox. It's dead. 15:02:28 ok 15:02:30 vaaaal: lispbox is several lisp pieces lumped together for convenience. clozure cl is an implementation of one of those pieces. 15:02:53 Xach: CCL has hemlock, though, no? 15:02:54 vaaaal: nowadays, you just get yourself a compiler and then use quicklisp. 15:03:03 now i've in front of me lispworks and it have a nice interface and seems to have a lot of option 15:03:12 clozure seems like a raw windows with a listener, right? 15:03:16 gah, hemlock, that picture won't ever go out of my head. 15:03:23 i don't wanna criticize ccl, just understand 15:03:25 sykopomp: on OSX ccl ships an IDE, of which the editor component is based on hemlock. 15:03:27 vaaaal: affirmative 15:03:31 ook 15:03:39 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:03:45 vaaaal: ccl is the compiler. You would need to set up emacs+slime to have a more interactive environment. 15:04:00 ah 15:04:01 oook 15:04:13 I use emacs+slime, and am very happy with it :) 15:04:14 i've been hearing some noise about an eclipse plugin again, lately. 15:04:26 or maybe it's just an echo of an old noise. 15:04:30 CUSP is back?! 15:04:37 I think it's a different one. 15:04:38 but sorry for my ignorance, isn't lispbox emacs+slime? 15:04:53 in the end, all those open source lisp ide guys either leave lisp alone or switch to emacs+slime. 15:04:54 lispbox is a project to package CL/emacs/slime 15:04:55 vaaaal: lispbox is a bundle that includes emacs, slime, and a compiler. 15:05:00 ah 15:05:01 (or they stay on ilisp) 15:05:01 that project is no longer maintained. 15:05:20 so it's best not to worry about lispbox. 15:05:26 it's seriously out of date. 15:05:29 i've programming on it since now 15:05:30 :) 15:05:31 vaaaal: "lispbox is dead". don't mention that name again. ever. 15:05:46 vaaaal: these days, you can install emacs, install a compiler, load quicklisp, and install slime through quicklisp. 15:05:46 vaaaal: if it works, that's an accident. :) 15:05:47 -!- yakov_ [~yakov@ip-83-149-3-239.nwgsm.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:05:54 ^^ 15:05:55 when I want to just create objects as marker, to be compared with EQ, am I right to expect that the result of CONS is what is the less memory-consuming? 15:05:57 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:06:11 mmm 15:06:15 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 15:06:27 anyhow, if you like emacs/slime, then CCL is probably a good choice for you. 15:06:41 have i understand of the details about compiler, enviroment and other stuff to programm proper code? 15:06:44 everyone loves emacs/slime, except kt. 15:06:58 sykopomp: no. 15:07:02 mmm no, i don't like emacs/slime very much 15:07:04 sykopomp: i know two ilisp users. 15:07:11 just it was easy to install ^^ 15:07:16 H4ns: I met one on Tuesday! 15:07:21 I keep *wanting* to love Emacs, but bugs keep biting me. 15:07:31 ChibaPet: emacs has bugs? 15:07:32 bugs in emacs? 15:07:33 bugs in emacs? 15:07:37 bugs in emacs! 15:07:40 slime is sometimes quite buggy 15:07:45 =gasp= Yeah, well, term has bugs. :) 15:07:47 but emacs itself, less so 15:07:51 step in time, bugs in emacs, step in time 15:07:59 lol 15:08:00 not recently, i fixed all bugs in slime 15:08:06 never need a reason, never need a rhyme, bugs in emacs, step in time! 15:08:08 oh, good 15:08:10 I've been bringing a small team of former python guys along at work for a lisp project we're doing. 15:08:10 well, emacs did crash on me just two days ago 15:08:13 Zhivago [~zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 15:08:20 but I'm sure it was something else's bug 15:08:35 they're smart people, but there are a lot of moving parts that makes the learning curve steep if you're learning emacs/slime at the same time you're learning CL. 15:08:35 emacs crash on me too sometimes 15:08:55 *stassats* uses emacs from git with months of uptime 15:09:01 or is it bzr 15:09:06 arc? 15:09:18 or ark, or whatever its name is. 15:09:24 git mirror of bzr, because bzr is atrocious 15:09:27 sykopomp: arch 15:09:28 darchs? 15:09:30 arch 15:09:35 that one. 15:09:37 sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 15:09:44 yakov [~yakov@ip-83-149-3-2.nwgsm.ru] has joined #lisp 15:09:50 ChibaPet: There's a program called rlwrap that makes using the sbcl REPL directly from bash a lot less painful 15:10:09 i think linedit would do a better job 15:10:47 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-023-072.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:48 Hm. I like SLIME. I just get frustrated with Emacs because it promises to make my whole environment consistent and then laughs at me when I try to use ansi-term heavily. 15:11:09 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-181-173.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Offline] 15:11:10 then don't use ansi-term 15:11:13 leo2007 [~leo@114.247.10.77] has joined #lisp 15:11:33 ChibaPet: I use ansi-term very heavily... what problem do you have? 15:11:38 Right. And that's where I am now. It's frustrating because I want what ansi-term offers. 15:11:48 Um, it garbles some escape sequences. 15:12:03 I need to resubmit my bug report, because I believe the bug reporting tool failed. 15:12:15 ChibaPet: you just need to fix the terminfo entry! *giggles* 15:12:19 in which situation? 15:12:37 Hold on a sec and I'll try to reproduce it. It's been a month or so since I tried, or a bit more. 15:12:45 i've found ansi-term pretty flawless... 'course, I'm on a linux machine. 15:12:55 i dunno if being on windows or osx would alter that. 15:12:57 but it's slow! 15:13:12 realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:30 Mostly Debian here. I haven't tried it on Mac OS or Windows. 15:13:45 yeah, I use it primarily on debian and ubuntu. 15:13:55 /w emacs23 as packaged. 15:13:57 On OS X you'd probably run into problems with Terminal.app only supporting 16 (IIRC) colors 15:14:13 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:14:23 -!- blandest [~user@85.204.33.242] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:14:28 Okay, here's your test: in a "normal" terminal, cat -v, type in escape-escape-k, and hit enter. Then do the same in ansi-term. 15:14:29 urandom__ [~user@p548A578E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:03 ChibaPet: don't you mean "ESC [ K"? 15:15:17 I mean, hit the escape key twice and then k, and then return. 15:15:39 Should produce identical results, but doesn't. 15:15:41 ChibaPet: what should that do? ESC ESC is not a valid ansi sequence, so your bets are off. 15:16:04 cyrillos [~cyrill@swsoft-msk-nat.sw.ru] has joined #lisp 15:16:16 ChibaPet: well, if two ansi terminal implementations differ in how they treat illegal sequences, it is not exactly a problem in my book. 15:16:41 fourier [~fourier@213.141.149.93] has joined #lisp 15:17:02 I'd have to dig to find the case that was broken. I've just given an example of broken behaviour. 15:17:37 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-87-235.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:17:51 ChibaPet: as i said, esc-esc-k is not a legal ansi sequence, so if some program depends on a particular behavior for this sequence, it is briken. 15:18:03 -!- fourier [~fourier@213.141.149.93] has quit [Client Quit] 15:18:37 H4ns, right, so, there's something I needed to do that broke because of a BUG in ansi-term, and I'm not remembering off the top of my head, nor am I interested in arguing with your defense of the bug. 15:18:54 I'll try to find the exact issue at some point and resubmit it. 15:18:57 <_3b> how often do you need to type escape sequences directly into a terminal though? 15:19:12 ChibaPet: i'm not defending a bug, i'm telling you that the problem probably is in the terminfo entry, not in emacs. 15:20:36 os 15:20:38 _3b, it's mostly something that comes up in contexts where tramp mode can't be used, where I'm stuck using vi over a shell. 15:20:41 do you suggest 15:20:45 emacs+slime+clozure cl? 15:20:59 that's -my- main setup :) 15:21:13 vaaaal: although you can use emacs+slime with a variety of distos. 15:21:13 vaaaal, that's a good mix. 15:21:19 err, compilers 15:21:23 and it's easy to install all this stuff? 15:21:24 :-\ 15:21:24 <_3b> ah, messing up input of esc does sound annoying if you are using vi 15:21:26 vaaaal: i use that, too. it works on windows to some extent, but i usually use linux. 15:21:32 but sbcl and ccl work best with slime 15:21:47 vaaaal: once it's set up, it's set up. You can also switch compilers easily from there. 15:21:49 vaaal, you're in the right place to get help - give it a try and ask questions as you hit issues 15:22:00 thank you, i will try :-) 15:22:11 vaaaal: http://www.mohiji.org/ has some tips too 15:22:12 I currently use emacs+slime with allegro, ccl, and sbcl, depending on what I need to do. 15:22:20 thank you xach 15:22:30 _3b, I had it nailed down fairly closely when I was trying to solve it, but again, I ran out of time and it's slipped out of state. 15:23:31 ehi xach, the link talk about linux, do you have some guide for windows? 15:23:57 you should read it further 15:23:58 vaaaal: keep reading 15:24:03 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-130-235.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 15:24:07 yeah, sorry :) 15:24:32 though i'm questioning the choice of Clisp 15:24:52 mmm 15:25:05 i' can't understand why so much think... quicklis, clisp, emacs 15:25:17 emacs is the text editoro, ok, but quicklisp and clisp? 15:25:28 *editor 15:25:41 greaver [~Sarge@41.138.11.188] has joined #lisp 15:26:12 CL rewards the adventurous spirit 15:27:23 -!- Zhivago [~zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:27:39 mm 15:27:57 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.247.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:30:20 quicklisp is a library manager, like cpan in perl or easy_install in python. 15:30:46 sbcl/ccl/clisp/abcl/ecl are all common lisp implementations. 15:31:03 slime is a bridge between emacs and the common lisp implementation. 15:31:45 thank you 15:31:51 kpreid [~kpreid@216.239.45.23] has joined #lisp 15:32:57 if you reversed that list and pushed emacs onto it, you'd have a pretty accurate map of the OSS common lisp development setup. 15:33:16 stefan_ [~quassel@84.38.68.108] has joined #lisp 15:33:18 the analog for which in the non-OSS world is Allegro or Lispworks. 15:33:30 m 15:33:41 i'm reading ccl isn't soo good in windows 15:33:49 what implementation would you suggest? 15:33:54 which both deliver the whole stack in one 'userfriendly' step. 15:33:54 ccl 15:34:04 I've only used CCL on windows. 15:34:14 what about sbcl? 15:34:16 what's the differences? 15:34:17 -!- akkartik_ [~akkartik@akkartik.name] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:34:34 what are the differences? 15:34:37 sbcl doesn't have as much development effort focused on windows, so it's a bit deficient in a few areas on that platform. 15:34:44 vaaaal: where did you read that ccl isn't so good on windows? 15:34:44 what are seems wrong. 15:34:50 xach, wait 15:34:55 I can't wait! Tell me now! 15:35:03 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216.239.45.23] has quit [Client Quit] 15:35:09 http://dmitrionsoftware.blogspot.com/2010/11/set-up-emacs-clozure-cl-slime-on.html 15:35:10 :D 15:35:22 oh wait 15:35:26 he says it BETTER 15:35:27 :D 15:35:36 most notably, sbcl doesn't have threading on windows, and some of the 'core' third party libraries don't work very well on windows /w sbcl. 15:35:41 so 15:35:46 for windows i should use ccl, and stop arguing 15:35:55 yes 15:36:02 :) 15:36:03 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:36:03 that's our advice. you don't have to take it. 15:36:06 i'd argue for you to stop using windows, but i wouldn't 15:36:13 thank you stassats 15:36:18 th u fade 15:36:19 you could try sbcl/clisp/whatever. it's your system. :) 15:36:45 well, i think i'll follow your advice :) 15:37:16 -!- stefan_ [~quassel@84.38.68.108] has quit [Client Quit] 15:37:21 once you have emacs and slime setup, adding other lisp implementations is pretty trivial. 15:37:37 stefan_ [~quassel@84.38.68.108] has joined #lisp 15:37:42 gkeith_lt [~gkeith@74-93-184-209-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:53 from my slime setup, it starts sbcl by default, but I can start ccl, abcl, and ecl if I want to test with those. 15:38:01 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d003677.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:38:05 -!- stefan_ is now known as morphling 15:38:23 i've emacs and slime, i downloaded it with lispbox 15:38:29 but i'm not sure they are the last version 15:38:47 i should say, they are definitely not the last version 15:38:58 vaaaal: http://ourcomments.org/Emacs/EmacsW32.html 15:39:11 vaaaal: that's where you get a proper version of emacs for windows. 15:39:19 thank you 15:40:00 i've to download slime apart, right? 15:40:15 the link you posted has very clear documentation. 15:40:18 vaaaal: quicklisp can do it for you. 15:40:25 I assume that your lispbox setup will have to be removed. 15:40:38 sure, fade 15:40:54 H4ns, so i've to download quicklisp or what? :D 15:41:14 once you have ccl installed you can start it like: ccl.exe --load http://beta.quicklisp.org/quicklisp.lisp 15:41:24 or whatever the ccl binary is called on windows 15:41:27 vaaaal: no. it will magically appear on your machine with no further ado. you only have to want it. 15:41:41 lol 15:41:44 then you follow the prompts 15:41:44 H4ns, this is really awesome, i love so much the technology 15:42:04 fade, thank you, one step at time 15:42:06 i will download emacs 15:42:09 then the other stuff 15:42:10 ^^ 15:42:48 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:43:13 OliverUv [~gandhi@195.159.235.178] has joined #lisp 15:43:50 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-19-65.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:44:58 are you sure emacsW32 is good and easy to configure with ccl and slime? 15:45:19 vaaaal: you are starting to stretch it. 15:45:19 almost none of us use windows. p_l|backup might be able to answer honestly. 15:45:31 vaaaal: 15:45:35 it has been reported to work. 15:46:10 'course, in the time you've been dithering around tripple verifying every question you've asked, you could have tried it yourself and then told us how it went. 15:46:17 :D 15:46:19 sorry 15:46:33 vaaaal: I used EmacsW32 with CCL and Slime on 64bit Windows 2008R2. It worked then :) 15:46:45 thank you! ^^ 15:47:24 don't have a windows machine handy though to test again 15:47:26 -!- greaver [~Sarge@41.138.11.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:47:30 -!- morphling [~quassel@84.38.68.108] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:47:54 maybe i seems a little incompetent 15:48:08 (technically, the old one should still work, but I let the license on windows lapse and didn't bother reinstalling 2k8r2 Standard for which I have a current one... had datacenter installed :)) 15:48:09 this is why i'm not a programmer, if you was wondering 15:48:21 *Fade* laughs 15:48:25 HG` [~HG@p5DC05E8C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:30 Mococa [~Mococa@187.58.9.29] has joined #lisp 15:48:36 so we shouldn't be expecting great things from you? :) 15:48:52 only hacks and *glory*! 15:48:58 you should expect stupid question ^^ 15:49:00 vaaaal: i'll tell you a secret: common lisp is a programming language, for programmers. 15:49:07 -!- chp [~chp@76.191.104.101] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:49:09 morphling [~quassel@84.38.68.108] has joined #lisp 15:49:17 H4ns, what are you saying? 15:49:23 -!- morphling [~quassel@84.38.68.108] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:49:24 No-programmers can't use lisp? 15:49:27 vaaaal: yes. 15:49:32 lol 15:49:36 ok 15:49:42 good to know 15:49:59 My usage of Lisp is strongly correlated with my growing a full beard, and developing much chest hair. 15:50:05 lol 15:50:18 sykopomp: but is it white? 15:50:21 here is a nickel kid, get yourself a decent programming language :) 15:50:30 stassats: Some of it is :( 15:50:48 that's good! the whiter the beard, the wiser you are 15:50:52 lol 15:50:56 lol 15:51:07 vaaaal: don't worry, Lisp is quite a good language to start programming with :) 15:51:15 though it will spoil you forever :P 15:51:21 I bet it has more to do with stress and genetics than wisdom, for me ;p 15:51:30 Even if you don't get spoiled, you might smell like it. 15:51:40 CL is my first programming language :) 15:51:45 ^^ 15:51:49 morphling [~quassel@84.38.68.108] has joined #lisp 15:51:56 -!- lanthan [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:52:01 *sykopomp* seems to be generally alone in that front. 15:52:12 lol 15:52:25 CL is my first programming language which i know thoroughly 15:52:31 and the last 15:53:48 well, I've learned a few other languages along the way -- javascript is the only one that justifies its use, though. 15:53:52 Imagine going through utterly stupid first year Java courses after learning CL, using CLOS, etc... 15:54:12 actually i know a bit of c++ 15:54:19 I was exposed to CLOS before I even knew what Java was like :\ 15:54:21 p_l|backup: why would anyone in their sane mind do that? 15:54:23 but cl seems another world 15:54:44 stassats: ... it was required course 15:54:44 CL is alien technology. 15:54:49 ;_; 15:55:12 why would you take such a curriculum with such courses? 15:55:46 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 15:56:35 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 15:56:44 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@ip68-109-29-26.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:57:13 stassats: couldn't really help it, unfortunately. Even Edinburgh, that had Haskell in first year, does it alongside Java. And I didn't make it into MIT 15:57:39 -!- ollkorrekt [~psych069@programmer1.ddns.icon.bg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:57:59 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-13-169.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:58:50 I got into MIT, but going to a US college as a foreign student is like buying a BMW M3 every year for four years, financially speaking. :P 15:59:16 fade where are u from? 15:59:21 Fade: hah indeed. that's cool though. 15:59:21 Canada 15:59:23 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@ip68-109-29-26.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:57 (so I blew it off and started starting companies) 16:00:05 I kind of wish I had gone, though. 16:00:23 Fade: well, that was partly what caused my slip in drive for learning in HS, later I found out I could somehow make it, but didn't get in due to slacking too much :P 16:00:23 The Joy of Six is expensive. 16:00:51 I'm still completely mystified by people who run their own companies. 16:01:02 luckily, you don't need any education to use Lisp 16:01:22 well, i wouldn't say that. luckily, i'm autodidactic. :) 16:01:41 i meant education as an institution 16:01:50 stassats: how so? 16:01:55 oops, sykopomp ^ 16:03:29 felideon: I just have no idea how I would succeed ;p 16:03:34 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 16:04:00 sykopomp: my average day is 18 hours. 16:04:20 so, the answer is: redefine your relationship with sleep. 16:04:30 hehe 16:04:52 doesn't mix up with sports 16:05:10 I gave up hockey a few years ago. 16:05:20 you may become rich but then spent your money on medicine 16:05:20 *rolando* couldn't be trusted with the command "Brush your teeth after every meal", let alone start a company 16:05:57 anyhow, hopefully it will result in a lot of nice new lisp code. 16:06:09 indeed 16:07:50 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:10:18 -!- vaaaal [~vaaaal@host165-14-dynamic.22-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: http://irc2go.com/] 16:12:48 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: french time] 16:19:38 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 16:21:25 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:22:15 -!- waaaaargh__ [~waaaaargh@agsb-4d04053f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: WTF? leaving!] 16:25:06 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@p57A40B3F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:25:31 Hello, Dragons! 16:26:15 do you mean that lispers are mythical creatures? 16:27:02 or demons 16:27:21 mostly daemons at this point. 16:28:01 stassats: maybe we lie on our programming riches till provoked, then deal with excessive force and swiftness with the tickler? ;P 16:28:36 sounds like typical #lisp 16:28:46 stassats: See page 231 here http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/book.pdf 16:29:09 -!- zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has quit [Quit: Be back later] 16:29:31 And tell me if Martin's intereaction doesn't sound like most of my interactions with the fine people of #lisp 16:29:44 zfx [~zfx@mail.inqmobile.com] has joined #lisp 16:29:44 -!- zfx [~zfx@mail.inqmobile.com] has quit [Changing host] 16:29:45 zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 16:30:13 well, dragon's are wise beasts... then there's c.l.l ;-) 16:30:19 stassats: FWIW I think you qualify as a fine example of a Dragon! :) 16:30:36 well, i don't breath fire! 16:31:10 stassats: that's what you tell people 16:31:24 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.58.9.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:31:47 "The dragon was in a disagreeable mood that day. Being a dragon, it always was. ``Sorry, boy'' the dragon said. ``I might be willing to tell you if the first number in that list is odd, but that's the best I could possibly do. Anything else would be too complicated; probably not worth my trouble.''" 16:33:28 -!- rosario [~rosario@fsf/member/rosario] has quit [Quit: Bye.] 16:33:39 ``Hello Dragon!'' Martin called as he made his way down the rickety dungeon staircase. ``Hmmmph! You again. I'm on to your recursive tricks.'' The dragon did not sound glad to see him. ``I'm supposed to find out what five factorial is,'' Martin said. ``What's factorial mean, anyway?'' At this the dragon put on a most offended air and said, ``I'm not going to tell you. Look it up in a book.'' 16:33:53 -!- zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:34:04 -!- agspathis [~user@ppp-94-64-150-39.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:34:26 agspathis [~user@ppp-94-64-171-190.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 16:34:40 -!- ocharles [u411@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-smgcqmqtjzpzpfrv] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:35:42 pnq [~nick@AC813D57.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 16:36:30 SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@VEROXITY.ipcolo1.SanFrancisco1.Level3.net] has joined #lisp 16:37:32 The dragon, beneath its feigned distaste for Martin's questions, actually enjoyed teaching him about recursion. One day it decided to formally explain what recursion means. The dragon told Martin to approach every recursive problem as if it were a journey. If he followed three rules for solving problems recursively, he would always complete the journey successfully. 16:38:38 please use paste.lisp.org for stories 16:38:55 Hello, Dragon! 16:39:15 this is silly 16:39:54 Xach: does buildapp finds the first system .asd in --asdf-tree or does it assume that ASDF tries to be mindful of versions and selects the latest version by default? 16:40:41 mon_key: It is unspecified what happens if multiple systems by the same name are present in the tree 16:40:50 It might randomly choose one 16:40:58 so use the --manifest-file flag? 16:41:03 mon_key: the dragon is meant to be the computer, not testy programmers 16:41:08 or dragons might fly out of your nose 16:41:31 mon_key: I don't see how what you're asking leads to an either/or choice. 16:41:54 mon_key: You could also arrange that the tree has only the systems you want to use, with no duplicates. 16:42:08 Xach: If i'm --load-system'ing from "$HOME/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/" 16:42:29 kpreid [~kpreid@216.239.45.23] has joined #lisp 16:42:46 It's not good to use Quicklisp's directory in --asdf-tree, no. 16:42:46 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@ip68-109-29-26.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:42:51 The manifest file is one good way around that. 16:43:05 mon_key: Did you see the makefile example I had for that? 16:43:30 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@ip68-109-29-26.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:43:36 buildapp/Makefile ? 16:43:54 mon_key: http://paste.lisp.org/display/123247 16:44:20 No. Thank you for showing me that! 16:45:33 foocraft_ [~ewanas@78.100.214.225] has joined #lisp 16:45:56 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@ip68-109-29-26.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:46:10 i imperfectly replaced "bdt-decode" with "my-fancy-app" in that makefile. 16:46:31 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@ip68-109-29-26.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:22 -!- e-user [~e-user@nat/nokia/x-jyxdwqyvbihnmzmv] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:48:39 Anyway, the idea is to load the app once to make sure all the required libraries have been fetched & installed for quicklisp, then dump the manifest file into the current directory. 16:48:53 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216.239.45.23] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 16:48:54 Then use that manifest file as input to buildapp for building the app again and writing the executable. 16:49:03 got it 16:49:10 That way Quicklisp is not dumped into your program. 16:49:11 kpreid [~kpreid@216.239.45.23] has joined #lisp 16:49:35 I would love to see a way to dump asdf as well. 16:49:47 -!- yakov [~yakov@ip-83-149-3-2.nwgsm.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:49:58 tree shaker! 16:50:18 dump as in elide asdf? 16:50:37 I was thinking instead doing one pass and tracing all the compile-file/load stuff in some way, and using that to produce a script that does it all. 16:50:44 when i see a tree fall down in the forest... i'd kill the bastard who'd done it. 16:50:47 That works less well when asdf does fancy things. 16:51:02 Of course, asdf encouraging the use of asdf:system-relative-pathname for resource location makes that more difficult. 16:51:31 I think older defsystems had a concept of dumping a loader script from the system definition. 16:52:37 -!- serichsen [~user@hmbg-4d0695a4.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 16:52:42 seems like. what do freedius/gbopen etc. do? 16:52:45 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:53:13 I don't know what those things are. 16:53:44 gbbopen is quicklisp installable :) 16:54:28 http://www.ai.sri.com/~connolly/freedius/ 16:54:37 gbbopen uses its own funky "module manager" that generally causes headaches for me. 16:55:35 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 16:56:12 Does sb-ext:run-program make assumptions on the type of stream you set as the output stream (such as it being utf-8)? 16:56:37 herbieB: doesn't it take the locale? 16:56:48 Does it? I don't know 16:56:59 herbieB: it does make assumptions based on the value of :external-format parameter 16:57:22 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@ip68-109-29-26.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:57:29 THat parameter being where? 16:57:37 guess 16:57:53 I mean, I don't see it here: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Running-external-programs.html 16:58:07 you're using the wrong manual 16:58:11 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@ip68-109-29-26.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:20 Ok... 16:58:22 -!- bandu [kvirc@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:58:27 http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Running-external-programs 16:58:30 bandu [kvirc@pool-71-164-242-237.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:30 -!- bandu [kvirc@pool-71-164-242-237.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:58:30 bandu [kvirc@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 16:59:00 That would be my confusion. THanks :) 16:59:01 stassats: i got the impression it gets it from sb-impl::default-external-format 16:59:15 Using gogole on sbcl run-program turned up that manual first :P 16:59:27 mon_key: the wrong impression 16:59:28 -!- tfb [~tfb@80.238.0.145] has quit [Quit: sleeping] 17:00:01 -!- bandu [kvirc@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:00:08 bandu [kvirc@pool-71-164-242-237.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:00:08 -!- bandu [kvirc@pool-71-164-242-237.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:00:08 bandu [kvirc@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 17:00:08 -!- HG` [~HG@p5DC05E8C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:00:16 Hmmm. I wish FLOAT would default to using a prototype of the same type as *read-default-float-format* 17:01:24 -!- gkeith_lt [~gkeith@74-93-184-209-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:01:42 well, you could always use 1.0 for that... 17:02:47 what if it changes at runtime? 17:04:09 -!- agspathis [~user@ppp-94-64-171-190.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:04:16 agspathis [~user@ppp-94-64-159-85.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 17:04:49 Xach: or 0.0. But I'd rather not have to type it. 17:05:08 stassats: what if it does? 17:05:26 Basically I want a switch that says, "Lisp, use double floats everywhere." 17:05:41 <_3b> would that override the default of leaving floats as-is? 17:05:59 _3b: how do you mean? 17:06:17 gigamonkey: if you change *read-default-float-format* at runtime and you have a compiled function somewhere saying (float x 1.0), it won't change its behaviour until recompiled 17:06:30 <_3b> (float 1d0) always returns 1d0 17:07:10 <_3b> even if it would return 1.0 for any non-float 1 17:07:37 Probably what I really want is an implementation where all four float types are the actually the same and that type is the IEEE-754 double float. 17:08:13 I wonder how hard that would be to add as a build option to SBCL? 17:08:53 *_3b* wonders how much code that would break 17:09:14 -!- pavelludiq [~pavelludi@87.246.58.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:09:33 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:10:30 _3b: it shouldn't break any conforming code, right? Since a conforming implementation can do that. 17:10:39 Ha ha ha 17:10:58 <_3b> right, but who writes completely conforming code :p 17:11:12 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 17:11:13 yakov [~yakov@ip-83-149-3-240.nwgsm.ru] has joined #lisp 17:11:17 But who writes code that depends on single-floats having fewer bits than double-floats? 17:11:19 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:11:22 *_3b* was mostly thinking about stuff like FFI anyway though, which is outside the spec anyway 17:12:10 I could believe it might slow some code down on some machines. But I don't count that as "breaking" it. 17:12:16 <_3b> i could also see tests failing, if they expected a specific # of bits 17:12:47 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@ip68-109-29-26.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:13:09 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@ip68-109-29-26.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:57 Basically all that code will get broken some day if machines up the number of bits they use for floats, when tomorrows single-float has the same number of bits as todays double-float. 17:14:43 stassats: when sb-sxt:run-program's :external-format arg is :default is this not the call chain for resolving :default 17:14:46 sb-ext:run-program -> sb-sys:make-fd-stream -> sb-impl::set-fd-stream-routines -> sb-impl::default-external-format 17:15:22 it is, but why are you bringing it up? 17:15:30 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:15:56 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@ip68-109-29-26.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:15:58 you can supply it other values than :default, you know 17:16:18 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@ip68-109-29-26.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:50 ISF [~ivan@187.106.54.41] has joined #lisp 17:17:58 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:33 I suggested that my impression was that SB-EXT:RUN-PROGRAM made assumptions on the value of the external-format for output streams. If/when sb-impl::default-external-format is informed by the value of locale setting were UTF-8 the wouldn't SB-EXT:RUN-PROGRAM default as such? 17:18:57 drdo` [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 17:20:26 external-format uses the usual conventions of all other I/O routines in SBCL 17:20:35 in run-program, that is 17:21:08 -!- Jasko3 [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:21:10 -!- drdo [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:21:21 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 17:21:33 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-156-210.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:02 pavelludiq [~pavelludi@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 17:22:25 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:23:27 jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-133.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:26:12 __main__ [~main@adsl-99-173-15-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:31 MimiEA [~Mimi@97-88-6-2.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:27:08 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:14 stassats: If my system locale is iso-8859-1 then independent of whether sb-unicode is present, run-program (etc.) will default :external-format to the value of that locale . This may not be immediataly obv. and I'm pretty sure there isn't an exposed handle for setting sb-impl::*default-external-format*. So, when herbieB asked "Does sb-ext:run-program make assumptions on the type of stream you set as the output stream (such as it being 17:28:14 utf-8)?" it may in fact have been pertinent to suggest that the locale setting was in play, and that this may affect things such as whether the the output stream was for example UTF-8. 17:28:21 -!- drdo` is now known as drdo 17:31:02 ocharles [u411@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vcsbjiopufaoljmn] has joined #lisp 17:32:37 -!- agspathis [~user@ppp-94-64-159-85.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:32:41 -!- yakov [~yakov@ip-83-149-3-240.nwgsm.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:33:02 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 17:41:01 -!- zanea [~zanea@222-153-119-57.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:41:47 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@swsoft-msk-nat.sw.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:48:19 zanea [~zanea@222-153-117-198.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 17:52:02 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:52:26 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:21 -!- zanea [~zanea@222-153-117-198.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 257 seconds] 17:53:25 zanea_ [~zanea@125-237-49-81.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 17:53:47 -!- ngz [~user@209.141.80.79.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:55:38 -!- sellout [~Adium@195.91.111.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:55:46 -!- MimiEA [~Mimi@97-88-6-2.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:58:15 -!- zanea_ [~zanea@125-237-49-81.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:58:25 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has joined #lisp 18:02:21 -!- acelent` is now known as acelent 18:05:24 zanea [~zanea@222-153-119-139.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 18:05:36 _class_ [~class@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:52 gkeith_lt [~gkeith@67.23.203.254] has joined #lisp 18:05:58 -!- __class__ [~class@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:07:27 -!- zanea [~zanea@222-153-119-139.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:07:42 HG` [~HG@p5DC05E8C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:26 ngz [~user@209.141.80.79.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:28 vaaal [~vaaal@host165-14-dynamic.22-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:08:32 -!- Davidbrcz_ [~david@ANantes-151-1-221-244.w90-54.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:09:21 -!- _class_ is now known as __class__ 18:09:32 ehm 18:09:39 i've installed emacsw32 18:09:47 but i can't connect it with slime 18:09:51 who can please help me? 18:10:24 zanea [~zanea@222-153-119-139.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 18:10:24 what setup instructions have you been following and where did you get stuck? 18:10:37 this instruction http://trac.clozure.com/ccl/wiki/InstallingSlime 18:11:13 i put slime directory in programmi/emacs/emacsw32/bin/src/slime/ 18:11:14 jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-46-38.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:11:42 i write the code into .emacs, which i find throu c-x c-f /emacs etc 18:11:51 i've NOT modified the code 18:12:03 then i write M-x slime 18:12:04 vaaal: is the path to slime in your emacs load-path? 18:12:31 i put slime in programfiles/emacs/emacsw23/bin/src/slime 18:12:39 i don't know 18:12:42 wait pls 18:12:55 (add-to-list 'load-path "~/src/slime/") 18:13:02 this is the load path, i haven't change it 18:13:17 well you want ot be sure the paths are relavent to you ~/src/ 18:13:26 yes 18:13:28 what i should write? 18:13:37 C:\\blabla? 18:13:39 vaal switch to *scrath* buffer evaluate (print load-path (current-buffer)) 18:13:40 jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.56] has joined #lisp 18:13:51 well, if all else fails, change them to absolute directory names, yeah, try c:/... 18:14:01 do you see a fully resolved path to your slime directory? 18:14:13 ? 18:14:19 but also check your ~/.emacs file is what you're editing (and not /emacs as you said just then) 18:14:25 monkey sorry i don't understand 18:14:29 yes, is the .emacs file 18:14:44 i have not write the tilde because is pretty complicated in this keyboard 18:14:50 but the emacs file is right 18:15:01 so maybe i will try writing all the path 18:15:07 ok well ~ means your home directory, so that's pretty important to include 18:15:28 vaaal: are you on a windows 32 system? 18:15:55 i think so 18:16:00 what OS? 18:16:02 hahahah. That's the best reason to complain that instructions aren't working. 18:16:04 windows xp 18:16:18 ? 18:16:35 don't worry about him, he's just being supercilious 18:16:35 sellout [~Adium@195.91.111.15] has joined #lisp 18:16:43 you'll have much better luck with windows-32/emacs if you use fully qualified paths. 18:17:09 e.g. don't do ~/my-path/to/foo 18:17:29 what i should write? 18:17:48 yeah use the whole directory name, if all else fails. remember if you're putting \ in that you might need to 'quote' them, so might need to put "c:\\User\\... etc" 18:18:09 oook 18:18:14 thank you, i try it right now 18:19:20 vaal: (add-to-list load-path "c:/Program Files/emacs/emacsw23/bin/src/slime" t) 18:19:27 sorry, with \ or /? 18:19:54 If \, then two of them. 18:20:03 it shouldn't matter. 18:20:05 I think you can you both in paths in Windows. 18:20:11 ook 18:20:19 if you find that is a problem then do: 18:20:25 (add-to-list load-path (convert-standard-filename "C:/Program Files/emacs/emacsw23/bin/src/slime") t) 18:20:25 s/can you/can use/ 18:21:25 mmm 18:21:26 i put 18:21:26 SBCL version .50 seems to be distributed without output/prefix.def? 18:21:27 (add-to-list 'load-path "C:\\programmi\\emacs\\emacsw32\\bin\\src\\slime\\") 18:21:28 How do I properly set up sbcl on debian? If I don't supply a proper dynamic-space-size argument, it doesn't start at all, and if I do it doesn't find asdf 18:21:49 vaaal: I'm just curious, where did you put the .emacs file? 18:21:49 and when i M-x slime it says: apply: Spawning child process: invalid argument 18:21:55 mmm 18:22:12 i don't know, it opens automatically with c-x c-f /tilde/.emacs 18:22:16 if you can wait i find it out 18:22:31 phryk: where did you get sbcl? i use debian, but i very strongly prefer to get sbcl from www.sbcl.org binaries. 18:22:39 vaaal: Ok 18:22:47 _3b: I do (write completely conforming code). 18:23:04 Xach: got it from the repo 18:23:09 vaaal: That sounds like a problem running inferior-lisp rather than loading slime into emacs. Did you set up your slime setup to reflect the location of your lisp? 18:23:32 mmm 18:23:38 phryk: if it can't find asdf, it's not completely installed. 18:23:41 let my check 18:23:47 phryk: what repo do you mean? 18:24:30 I have no clue, I rarely install anything on that machine, it's been ages since I logged into it just did aptitude install sbcl 18:24:42 antoszka how could i check it? :-\ 18:24:57 phryk: I think you'll have better luck if you remove that sbcl and install the version from www.sbcl.org. 18:25:06 Xach: okay 18:25:38 vaaal: what does evaluating (executable-find "sbcl") tell you? 18:26:16 he's using ccl i think 18:26:23 shit sorry 18:26:48 Hm. My emacs doesn't even have the executable-find command. 18:26:52 vaaal: Is this Lispbox that you're setting up? 18:26:55 function, whatever. 18:27:18 vaaal: you'll want to change the /usr/local/bin/ccl64 to where you installed the ccl .exe file: (setq inferior-lisp-program "/usr/local/bin/ccl64 -K utf-8") 18:27:58 (according to that setup instruction you said you're using at http://trac.clozure.com/ccl/wiki/InstallingSlime ) 18:28:26 vaaal: (Lispbox does all this for you.) 18:28:45 wivlaro: willl he have problems if hes not using a 64bit machine? 18:28:49 -!- gkeith_lt [~gkeith@67.23.203.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:29:04 -!- vaaal [~vaaal@host165-14-dynamic.22-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:29:12 oh well we lost him anyway 18:29:31 lol 18:29:32 valient effort though :) 18:29:34 poor fella 18:29:52 *jtza8* is surprised about how nice #lisp was to him. 18:30:28 (which is a good thing) 18:30:39 jtza8: we like newbies asking lisp questions. 18:31:02 jtza8: I can tell firsthand that this channel is nice to moronic newbies^^ 18:32:27 Well, it wasn't always this way. (IMHO) 18:32:44 Xach: installed the version from sbcl.org, still get the mmap error when not supplying dynamic-space-size 18:35:14 (This is on a vhost that is only guaranteed 256M of ram) 18:35:24 s/vhost/vserver/ 18:35:35 gkeith_lt [~gkeith@67.23.203.254] has joined #lisp 18:36:37 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:38:08 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:38:10 -!- leo2007 [~leo@114.247.10.77] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:38:15 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:35 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:39:53 phadthai_ [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:53 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:41:57 -!- gkeith_lt [~gkeith@67.23.203.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:42:05 Blargh, so, if I set :external-format on sb-ext:run-program to 'unsigned-byte and then tell :output to go to a stream defined in flexi-streams:with-output-to-sequence, I get a nice error: Got an error: Don't know how to copy to stream of element-type FLEXI-STREAMS:OCTET 18:42:15 phryk: openvz? 18:42:18 It seems changing :external-format to nonsense does not affect anythign 18:43:12 vaaal [~vaaal@host166-15-dynamic.33-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:43:24 sorry, my connection drop me out 18:43:31 gkeith_lt [~gkeith@67.23.203.254] has joined #lisp 18:45:36 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:36 -!- phadthai_ [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:45:48 mon_key: pretty sure ccl ships with a 32 bit version as well 18:46:14 herbieB: external-format is not element-type 18:46:51 Hmmmm 18:48:34 so 18:48:38 this still doesn't work. 18:48:39 :-\ 18:48:40 So which would be for binary data? 18:48:45 Davidbrcz_ [~david@ANantes-151-1-221-244.w90-54.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:48:58 vaaal: Did you try Lispbox? 18:48:59 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:49:12 jtza8: no. Please don't bring lispbox up. 18:49:12 redline6561: I have no clue what they use 18:49:16 we've been over this. 18:49:59 sykopomp: Well, at least it's a bit more automated. 18:50:20 vaaal: If you'd like, you could message me. 18:51:24 jtza8: lispbox is outdated, and not recommended. 18:52:15 Ok then, but I guess I could help him out the manual way then. 18:52:55 vaaal332 [~vaaal@host112-58-dynamic.3-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:53:09 -!- vaaal [~vaaal@host166-15-dynamic.33-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:53:17 so 18:53:26 Dropped again? 18:53:29 :-\ 18:53:31 yes 18:53:32 sral [2669c8fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.38.105.200.252] has joined #lisp 18:53:51 what i should do? I really don't know, it seems all good to me, but still doens't work.. 18:53:53 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 18:54:00 vaaal332: well, if you'd like, I could help you one-on-one via /msg. 18:54:17 sure i wuold like, but what is this? :D 18:55:07 -!- sral [2669c8fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.38.105.200.252] has quit [Client Quit] 18:55:24 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 18:57:08 I fucking hate debian. 18:57:35 Hey/ 18:57:50 I have question, does anyone have *working* cl-xmpp code? 18:58:22 lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@2.150.236.244.tmi.telenormobil.no] has joined #lisp 18:58:23 Beucase that one from author's site isn't correct, I think 18:59:30 -!- gkeith_lt [~gkeith@67.23.203.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:01:49 gravicappa [~gravicapp@p57A40B3F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:02:04 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 19:02:33 phryk: how about asdf? 19:04:16 that was because i had no sbclrc 19:04:21 SuChek_ [~SuChek@unaffiliated/suchek] has joined #lisp 19:04:21 so it's no difference 19:04:39 right now I'm trying to figure out asdf-install since debian doesn't have a hunchentoot package 19:04:40 Alright, I'm at wits end. I have an external program that returns to me binary data, and I would like to get it into an array of octets, how in the world does one accomplish this? 19:04:52 phryk: quicklisp! 19:05:02 phryk: much easier. 19:05:09 jtza8: debian has no package for that either. 19:05:19 No, don't use apt! 19:05:30 Apt sucks when you use CL. 19:05:40 Very hard, it does. 19:05:56 I'd rather say that debian sucks when using CL, but hey. 19:06:04 and you'd be wrong 19:06:10 phryk: Have a look here: http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/ 19:06:10 -!- Davidbrcz_ [~david@ANantes-151-1-221-244.w90-54.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:06:24 Why would I be wrong? nothing works 19:06:31 with apt 19:06:33 *Xach* uses debian for his CL hacking. 19:06:40 nothing works with apt! 19:06:46 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:07:00 phryk: well, you're to blame 19:07:31 It's my fault that there is no hunchentoot package and sbcl doesn't work properly on debian? 19:07:35 -!- SuChek [~SuChek@unaffiliated/suchek] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:07:40 yes 19:07:44 phryk: Yes, when you use apt!!!! 19:07:52 stassats`: Ah, of course. 19:07:56 you've been told numerously to use quicklisp to install lisp packages 19:08:30 phryk: CL is only good anywhere with its own "package managers". 19:08:49 jtza8: I've had no problems with it on gentoo 19:09:24 Yes, and no... I wasn't all that happy with it. 19:09:32 -!- jiacobucci [~jiacobucc@gw-asdl.ae.gatech.edu] has left #lisp 19:09:41 phryk: it doesn't matter what gentoo does 19:09:44 jiacobucci [~jiacobucc@gw-asdl.ae.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 19:10:37 phryk: the emerge package system is a little more up-to-date than apt, but still, it sucks if you think a hammer is a power-tool. 19:10:50 jtza8: I don't. 19:11:05 Does quicklisp provide uninstall functionality? 19:11:11 Yes 19:11:18 good to know 19:11:25 I'm trying it out locally now. 19:11:56 phryk: it installs in ~/quicklisp by default. 19:12:10 QL:UNINSTALL-DIST is new to me. Cool. 19:12:40 with humongous hard-drives, who needs uninstall? 19:12:48 stassats`: me. 19:12:57 stassats`: I have a puny SSD. 19:13:07 saying you don't need uninstall functionality is just ignorant 19:13:09 well, there are all these tiny laptops with tiny SSDs now 19:13:24 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-133.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:13:24 pkhuong: i mean for lisp code, it doesn't take so much space 19:13:26 Seen my delfasls script? http://billstclair.com/blog/delfasls.html 19:13:34 phryk: It's even easy to do uninstalls manually. 19:14:01 jtza8: if you know where stuff is. but for system wide installs that might be a differen thing 19:14:23 IIRC, it doesn't do system-wide installs by default. 19:14:39 Or at all. 19:14:44 Yep. They're local, in ~/quicklisp 19:14:44 Yeah. 19:14:52 Some german fellow figured out how to do it, but he had to jump through hoops. 19:15:22 -!- ngz [~user@209.141.80.79.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:15:34 When I installed a package with quicklis, can I load them normally with asdf? 19:15:45 phryk: you can load them with asdf. 19:15:56 Good :) 19:16:07 I pretty much use quickload exclusively, though. 19:17:05 i should really store fasls in a ramdisk 19:17:34 i wonder how much faster they will load on sbcl 19:17:41 bah. just make sbcl 100 times faster at loading them. 19:18:06 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 19:18:34 then everyone gets a speedup. 19:18:48 then i won't stand out 19:19:34 make sbcl build in 89 seconds. 19:19:45 do I have to do "(quicklisp-quickstart:install)" everytime i want to use quicklisp? 19:19:52 phryk: No. 19:20:10 Xach: 59 sounds better 19:20:22 phryk: You only have to do that once. After that you can get Quicklisp into your system by loading ~/quicklisp/setup.lisp. Quicklisp will add it to your startup file if you do (ql:add-to-init-file) 19:20:24 *stassats`* waits for the Ivy Bridge 19:21:10 though, parallelizing contrib-building process should be easy 19:21:27 faster fasls are probably easier, though. 19:22:41 Okay, I don't see any function to explicitely *install* stuff with quicklisp, just loading which apparently installs not-yet-installed packages and loads what you specified. 19:22:50 -!- __class__ [~class@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:22:51 But these installed packages are not visible to asdf 19:23:07 phryk: why wouldn't they be visible? 19:23:18 pkhuong: If I know, I could fix that 19:23:56 i did (ql:quickload "hunchentoot") it installed and loaded hunchentoot 19:24:11 phryk: That's the normal thing to do. Installing without loading is less convenient. 19:24:25 but when i restarted sbcl and tried to load hunchentoot with asdf, all it said was component not found 19:24:37 phryk: You have to load quicklisp to be able to load hunchentoot installed with quicklisp. 19:24:44 oh wait 19:24:46 did you do (ql:add-to-init-file)? 19:24:46 yes 19:24:52 I just saw that, thanks 19:28:30 herbieB: you might find this usefull: http://paste.lisp.org/display/120782 19:29:48 mon_key: Nodnod, yeah, the problem is that run-program doesn't give me a way to get the data in binary format, from what I can tell. 19:29:54 Once I had it, I could do neat things with it 19:31:28 phadthai_ [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:28 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:31:39 -!- vaaal332 [~vaaal@host112-58-dynamic.3-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: http://irc2go.com/] 19:31:46 herbieB: you can't just pipe it through :output :stream? 19:32:00 *redline6561* thinks he might have something for that... 19:32:09 -!- sellout [~Adium@195.91.111.15] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:32:16 Nope, it tries to do something with :external-format and blows up trying to parse UTF-8 or ascii or whatever 19:32:21 sellout [~Adium@195.91.109.15] has joined #lisp 19:32:22 And didn't they add a keyarg for that to run-program in a recent SBCL? 19:32:25 Before handing it to me 19:32:28 So pass the right :external-format. 19:32:34 pkhuong +1 19:32:35 What's tehwright external-format? 19:32:42 That's what I asked way up there :P 19:33:31 grmpf great my code gets compiled on that system but doesn't seem to do anything at all hunchentoot acceptor gets started but only shows the default page -.- 19:33:50 *jtza8* helped vaaal, who then discovered (that after already using Lispbox) that it's exactly the same. 19:34:01 but not even the damn print before the creation of the acceptor seems to be executed 19:34:12 sellout1 [~Adium@195.91.109.15] has joined #lisp 19:34:23 You want octets? How about (unsigned-byte 8)? 19:34:29 That's not a valid external format 19:34:32 -!- sellout [~Adium@195.91.109.15] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:34:36 And run-program doesn't accept element-type 19:34:51 (That's wha tI tried first) 19:34:54 herbieB: what about routing through flexistreams? 19:35:00 I'm trying to do that on the way out 19:35:13 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@p57A40B3F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:35:16 (flexi-streams:with-output-to-sequence (str) (run-program...)) 19:35:17 looks like it expects a character type 19:35:20 It gives me a conversion error 19:35:23 pkhuong: Nodnod 19:35:32 so iso-8859-1 is one way to fake it. 19:35:35 pkhuong: That's the conclusion I've coem to 19:35:48 Hmmmm 19:35:55 I'll give that a shot 19:36:02 PokeTron [~PokeTron@66.119.109.245] has joined #lisp 19:36:53 Yeah, still get this: Don't know how to copy to stream of element-type FLEXI-STREAMS:OCTET 19:36:58 run-program can detect the element-type of the stream and act accordingly 19:37:06 -!- tessier [~treed@216.105.40.125] has quit [Changing host] 19:37:06 tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has joined #lisp 19:37:07 and it can't know about flexi-streams:octet 19:37:52 Why is programming with lisp so damn frustrating? 19:37:56 Ah, there we go 19:38:11 speak for yourself. I've found nothing but frustration everywhere -else- 19:38:15 phryk: You are not yet one with your code... 19:38:22 (map 'vector #'char-code (with-output-to-string (str) (run-program... :external-format :iso...))) 19:38:25 Yay 19:38:28 Lisp at least lets me stomp out frustrations when i have them. 19:38:29 phryk: sorry, i can't think of answer which doesn't belittle you 19:38:58 jtza8: my code does basically *nothing* on another machine, while it works just fine locally 19:39:00 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-023-072.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:39:03 sohmestra [~david_cly@75-145-242-25-spotsylvania.va.richmond.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:06 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-023-072.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:06 phryk: Seriously, it's just VERY different. 19:39:11 but it doesn't give any errors either 19:39:51 IIRC, you need to start Huchentoot 19:39:59 That's the only thing that works. 19:40:14 Everything else (even only printing a static string) doesn't. 19:40:52 if you want to get any help (instead of just whining) you need to provide some more details, include the code in question 19:41:32 Yes, I know 19:41:36 Give me a minute. 19:42:00 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216.239.45.23] has quit [Quit: Offline] 19:42:13 or if you really want to minimise the differences, you can use an image for deployment. 19:42:38 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@ip68-109-29-26.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:43:00 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@ip68-109-29-26.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:31 http://paste.lisp.org/+2NDO that is my code starting the acceptor works, but I only get the default hunchentoot page (not even the print before creating the acceptor works) although it compiles without errors. 19:44:21 I know it sucks. content.tpl.lisp just contains the definition of the function "render-content" 19:44:26 yikes, formatting! 19:44:33 pkhuong: image? 19:44:37 phryk: That's a lot of code. It might be better to start with something simpler. And try to put all your close-parens on the same line. 19:44:50 phryk: do you use SBCL? 19:44:53 stassats`: yes 19:44:57 tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 19:45:16 i think clisp is more comfortable, but apparently hunchentoot doesn't work with it. 19:45:17 phryk: can you say what does (find :sb-thread *features*) return on both machines? 19:46:08 *jtza8* doesn't know huchentoot at all, but notices (setf *catch-errors-p* NIL) 19:46:15 -!- billitch [~billitch@bastille.ma3.tv] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:46:16 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@ip68-109-29-26.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:46:16 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 19:46:18 stassats`: it's basically a file-based blogging tool (or is planned to be one at some point) 19:46:30 phryk: can you answer my question 19:46:31 ? 19:46:50 ah misread you, sorry. 19:47:22 stassats`: SB-THREAD locally, NIL on the other machine. 19:47:33 there's your problem 19:47:57 the other machine doesn't have threads in its SBCL, rebuild it 19:48:07 okay 19:48:13 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-023-072.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:48:18 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:48:40 well, you could workaround it a bit by swapping (start (make-instance 'hunchentoot:acceptor :port 4242)) and (setf *default-handler* 'handle-url) in your file 19:48:57 -!- Vivitron [~user@pool-71-174-61-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:48:59 but enabling threads is the way to go 19:49:33 building, might take a while, this is only a 1.6ghz atom machine. 19:49:37 but thanks. 19:49:38 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:49:55 phryk: try swapping those two lines and tell if it works 19:50:00 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 19:50:00 Xach: Anything smaller wouldn't motivate me at all. 19:50:16 stassats`: Already removed sbcl 19:50:55 phryk: Not to make you feel good about your abilities, but to make it easier to troubleshoot. 19:51:14 phryk: you can download a binary from sbcl.org, it has threads enabled on linux-x86 and linux-x86-64 19:51:24 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 19:52:14 Xach: yes of course but i'm kindof used to the frustration :P 19:52:53 stassats`: it's freebsd and it's already compiling (switched to that in order to have better control over it, install on the debian thing should be about the same) 19:53:38 Xach: also why should you have all the closing parantheses in the same line? I never got that. I find it way more readable "the c way" 19:53:38 __class__ [~class@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:41 i hope not just rebuilding it, but rebuilding with threads enabled 19:53:54 phryk: because it's "the lisp way" 19:53:55 stassats`: yes, before that i had the binary package installed. 19:54:10 phryk: Because it's easier to read if you know Lisp. 19:54:13 you're not supposed to get it, you just need to follow it 19:54:37 Xach: it is? I guess when I'm used to it a bit more ill switch to that notation 19:54:46 no, that's the wrong way round 19:54:49 stassats`: that's a dumb reason 19:54:58 switch now, then you will have more chance to get used to it, and everyone else will also be able to read your code 19:55:06 mindCrime [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:55:15 Krystof: That on the other hand makes sense. 19:55:28 there are real reasons for the convention; they are trivially findable in documents about the Lisp language 19:55:39 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:56:13 what parentheses? 19:56:21 that might be why you're getting rather short shrift; people here tend to expect you to do a certain amount of your own research, and not to assume that the way you do things in other languages or from habit is an indication that Other People have been getting things wrong all this time 19:56:58 Night-hacks [~nullpoint@95.38.52.69] has joined #lisp 19:57:13 -!- PokeTron [~PokeTron@66.119.109.245] has quit [Changing host] 19:57:14 PokeTron [~PokeTron@unaffiliated/poketron] has joined #lisp 19:57:24 Krystof: I don't say people have been gettint it wrong, I'm just saying that "because I told you so" is a dumb reason. There might be real reasons, but I've not yet stumbled across those. 19:58:27 have you googled something like "lisp close parentheses"? 19:59:04 no "lisp notation conventions" with little success 19:59:20 you could think of "because I told you so" as shorthand for "I think you need to do some research on your own, because empirically if we tell you you probably won't believe us anyway and will spend time arguing about it" 19:59:34 mind you, it's not clear that arguing about whether "I told you so" is a good answer or not is a win 19:59:45 but I'm doing that, so maybe stassats` has won anyway 19:59:56 -!- DGASAU` [~user@91.218.144.129] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:00:20 hi 20:00:33 how can i post in past lisp ? 20:00:41 DGASAU` [~user@91.218.144.129] has joined #lisp 20:00:45 Night-hacks: how can you what? 20:00:50 search for luv-slides.ps instead 20:01:21 Night-hacks: http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp 20:01:24 Night-hacks: http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp 20:01:26 sykopomp: CL paste bot i meant 20:01:39 phryk: well, "because I told you so" becomes a better reason when none of the other experienced folks jump up and say, "no, don't listen to him" 20:01:59 I.e. because we're essentially *all* telling you so. 20:02:09 it works reasonably well with my three-year-old 20:02:09 srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has joined #lisp 20:02:25 "why? why? whyyy? whyyyyyy?" 20:02:40 "because]" (matter closed) 20:03:17 *sykopomp* just learned about 'super parentheses' http://www.gavilan.edu/csis/languages/parentheses.html 20:06:42 gigamonkey: That makes sense, of course. 20:07:51 you don't seem to question evaluation rules in Common Lisp, you don't do that because you know the underlying reason why they are the way they are? 20:08:00 phryk: please just do it, i TA common lisp and the ones that "rebel" and do it c-style often have much more trouble in the coursework 20:08:04 Is there some kind of documentation on best practice of how to format lisp code? I have stuff like (setf images (if (cl-fad:directory-exists-p (setf imagepath (merge-pathnames (make-pathname :directory '(:relative "images")) path))) how could i for instance make that more readable? 20:08:29 i submit in http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp but nothing happens 20:08:39 someone suggested "search for luv-slides.ps instead" earlier 20:08:41 phryk: in this case, let* 20:09:12 Night-hacks pasted "something goes wrong": http://paste.lisp.org/display/123615 20:09:15 GrayMagiker [~steve@c-174-56-88-247.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:25 yeah sorry found that 20:09:35 istr Gentle Intro having a brief discussion about indenting code. 20:09:38 fwiw 20:09:40 alex` [~alex@p549B41B4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:47 more generally, reading other peoples' code (preferably, well-written code) and other peoples' writing about code 20:10:08 phryk: the other thing to do is just look at code. There is much more agrement in the Lisp world than in some other language communities so you'll mostly see the same style. 20:10:09 Night-hacks: so, what goes wrong? 20:10:19 Kryztof: let is basically defining a local scope (so i can use variables defined in the let only within the let) 20:10:19 compile error 20:10:44 you have too much parenthesis 20:11:01 If I know the mean and standard deviation of some sample of normally distributed values, I can compute the probability that a future sample will yield a value greater than X, right? 20:11:04 Kryztof: theres supposed to be a question mark after that sentence^^ 20:11:19 gigamonkey: right, assuming independence. 20:11:20 phryk: that's right. let* does the same but it allows subsequent bindings to use values of previous bindings 20:11:24 phryk: yes. 20:11:38 stassats`: "deleting unreachable code" 20:11:55 compiler says but i think everything is ok there 20:11:57 Night-hacks: that's a note, not an error or a warning. 20:12:00 and it is usual to use binding (let) rather than assignment (setf) until you actually need assignment 20:12:06 pkhuong: what should I google to learn how? 20:12:11 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:12:15 Kryztof: so the 'variables' i define in the line before the current one cannot be used in the 'normal' let? 20:12:22 Night-hacks: but nothing is ok there, first, you have too much parenthesis 20:12:29 hang on, gigamonkey's question is much more interesting 20:12:36 probability density function? 20:13:03 gigamonkey: the cumulative one is more useful for you (unless you love integrals) 20:13:11 in this case, the "cumulative normal distribution function" 20:13:11 stassats`: parenthesis are ok 20:13:27 Night-hacks: wrong guess 20:13:32 error: illegal function call 20:13:34 but since this is the traditional question here, gigamonkey, "what are you actually trying to do?" :-) 20:13:51 Night-hacks: that's because your parenthesis are wrong 20:13:51 stassats`: in (do ... ) you mean ? 20:14:05 yes, in do (...) 20:14:14 do you know lisp evaluation rules? 20:14:21 Kryztof: understand shit. 20:14:23 ;-) 20:14:32 stassats`: yeah 20:14:53 Before that, I've got a gazillion timings for how long algorithm X takes to solve Sudoku. 20:14:56 Night-hacks: do you see how you messed up the parenthesis then? 20:15:04 Now I realize they may or may not be normally distributed. 20:15:19 stassats`: i think that's related to cond 20:15:41 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:15:46 it's not related to cond 20:16:02 gigamonkey: the best estimate for that would likely be the empiric distribution. 20:16:07 But pretending they are, I want to know what's the probability that algorithm X (not Knuth's Algorithm X, btw) will take more than some-large-time to solve some puzzle I haven't tried. 20:16:08 exu0 [~u@dslb-188-105-114-150.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:16:09 stassats`: i just have two list's in my do body 20:16:33 if you knew lisp evaluation rules you would know that this is wrong 20:17:11 So I see the cdf on this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_distribution But what's 'erf'? 20:17:11 -!- foocraft_ [~ewanas@78.100.214.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:17:15 gigamonkey: count the fraction of puzzles that you have tried which have taken more than that amount of time. 20:17:21 Ah, found it. 20:17:31 pkhuong: none of them have. 20:17:32 gigamonkey: a funky function. I just bind to libm when I need it. 20:17:40 pkhuong: Thanks again for that :external-format hint. It all orks perfectly now :) 20:17:44 yakov [~yakov@ip-83-149-3-104.nwgsm.ru] has joined #lisp 20:18:02 I'm trying to project the likelyhood of some as-yet-unseen killer puzzle taking much longer than any seen to date. 20:18:06 the Normal distribution is almost certainly the wrong distribution to answer that question 20:18:13 stassats`: a bit clear ? 20:18:25 Kryztof: yeah. like I said, I'm actually just trying to understand how this would work if it was. 20:18:30 Night-hacks: parenthesis in lisp aren't just for grouping stuff (like in C), you can't add an arbitrary amount of parenthesis in random places 20:18:38 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 20:18:39 Then presumably the next step would be to see if there's some other distribution that's a better fit. 20:18:48 stassats`: yeah 20:19:07 so, ((print 1) (print 2)) won't make a statement with two sub-statements, you'd need (progn (print 1) (print 2)) 20:19:23 but, in Loop do has an implicit PROGN, so you'd just write do (print 1) (print 2) 20:19:25 fair enough. What you'd do is, given a model, estimate the true underlying probability density. Then, compute the area under that density function corresponding to the region of interest (greater than X in this case) 20:19:30 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:19:41 stassats`: and i did it 20:19:44 in general, that second step uses the "cumulative probability function" 20:19:56 -!- yakov [~yakov@ip-83-149-3-104.nwgsm.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 20:19:56 Night-hacks: great, does it compile now? 20:20:08 Kryztof: which is always (trivially?) derivable from the probability density? 20:20:12 with normal conventions, the cumulative function measures the probability of getting less than X, so you will need 1-cdf 20:20:23 stassats`: no i meant i guess i'm doing right 20:20:31 it is always the integral of the probability density between suitably-chosen limits (normally -\infinity and X) 20:20:38 you're doing right what? 20:20:45 gigamonkey: trivially, in that you "just" have to stick an integral symbol in front, but the integrals tend to be hairy (if the primitive exists at all ;) 20:20:59 let me clear my understanding of do. 20:21:24 And presumably the real trick in many cases (such as, I suspect, my present one) is that it's not at all obvious what the probability density function actually is. 20:21:31 there's a more combinatorial approach to this problem, though, I think. 20:21:34 do will progn the n list's in loop body 20:21:55 i can't be any more clear, i can only redirect you to reading Practical Common Lisp 20:22:04 gigamonkey: particularly given that you're interested in a region that you haven't at all sampled. You /need/ a theoretical model that you believe in 20:22:07 one of my list's is (cond ..) and another one is (print) 20:22:19 Kryztof: right. 20:22:28 because this are fundamental things, and nobody really interested in such basic things explained here 20:22:29 and the Normal distribution, while it's reasonably common in Physics, is not a great one for almost anything else 20:22:38 (twice) 20:22:49 but i am ! 20:23:22 anyway i've read that book carefully 20:23:29 There's a finite number of distinct puzzles, #S. You've sampled #s of them, and they all took < k seconds. You can't know the odds that there exists a p \in S s.t. time_to_solve(p) >= k, but you can know the odds of observing your results, given that there exists such a p (or however many you want). 20:23:38 *gigamonkey* feels like maybe he'd better get Night-hacks straightened out. 20:24:02 Kryztof: physics... or social sciences. 20:24:06 pkhuong: assuming I have a random sample. 20:24:07 Night-hacks: maybe somebody would like to help you private messages 20:24:13 gigamonkey: yeah. 20:24:14 Which I probably don't. 20:24:28 *in 20:24:28 ok thanks for helps 20:25:08 Night-hacks: if you paste the current state of your confusion with a clear statement of what you're confused about, I'll take a peek at it. 20:25:10 gigamonkey: unless you think the non-randomness affects the difficulty of the puzzles, that's still a reasonable enough simplification. 20:25:50 Well, if anything my sample should be harder than average. 20:25:55 ok 20:28:09 kpreid [~kpreid@216.239.45.22] has joined #lisp 20:30:10 -!- pnq [~nick@AC813D57.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:30:18 Davidbrcz_ [~david@ANantes-151-1-214-155.w2-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:33:26 pkhuong: so does this get back to the thing I was asking about the other day, about how to determine the proper sample size? 20:34:37 Do I need to know the size of #S to calculate the odds? 20:34:48 I.e. the number of possible Sudoku puzzles. 20:34:50 Because I don't. 20:35:37 gkeith_lt [~gkeith@67.23.204.2] has joined #lisp 20:37:06 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-130-235.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:37:45 gigamonkey: no, you don't need to know the size (depending on your model, but you seem to want to use a model (to estimate time) with a normal distribution) 20:38:19 jiacobucci: no, I was just askin about the normal distribution as an example of a probability density function that I could wrap my head around to start with. 20:38:38 HG`` [~HG@p5DC05095.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:32 -!- DGASAU` [~user@91.218.144.129] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:41:02 DGASAU` [~user@91.218.144.129] has joined #lisp 20:41:36 -!- HG` [~HG@p5DC05E8C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:42:33 mindCrime [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:43:17 gigamonkey: again, it depends on what you want to know. Last time, you wanted to know if the average performance of two solvers was statistically significant. 20:44:01 pkhuong: yeah. I'm past that. ;-) 20:44:04 For that, all that matters is the size of the random, uniform sample... 20:45:58 for your new question, the universe size matters (actually, the % of overly-long instances you're ok with). 20:46:35 The number of distinct legal 3x3x3x3 puzzles is known, fwiw. 20:46:50 Not that I can find. The number of *solutions* is known. 20:47:28 pnq [~nick@ACA39985.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 20:48:25 -!- DGASAU` [~user@91.218.144.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:49:05 we can easily tell the number of puzzles, legal or not (: 20:49:37 pkhuong: actually I think even that is hard. It is believed that there are no 16-clue puzzles but not, I don't think, proven. 20:49:54 Unless you have a very expansive definition of illegal. ;-) 20:49:59 I do. 20:50:19 So an empty grid is a puzzle? 20:50:25 -!- ISF [~ivan@187.106.54.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:50:28 With a lot of solutions. 20:50:34 yup. 20:51:28 Yes. So there are 10^81 "puzzles", most of which are totally malformed. 20:52:11 DGASAU` [~user@91.218.144.129] has joined #lisp 20:52:17 -!- Night-hacks [~nullpoint@95.38.52.69] has left #lisp 20:53:05 % of puzzles that take too long to solve seems like a more useful measure. But all the methods will have the same result, if they all solve the sample within that much time :\ 20:53:55 *_3b* suspects number-of-solutions * 2^81 is less than 10^81, seems like that would be an upper bound on valid puzzles (with a bunch of duplicates) 20:54:54 _3b: sounds likely (: 20:57:27 foocraft [~ewanas@178.152.107.91] has joined #lisp 20:58:14 -!- anthracite [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/anthracite] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:58:43 _3b: good point. 20:59:34 That includes all of four rotations, yes? 20:59:45 each of* 20:59:55 ChibaPet: actually there are more than just four rotations. 21:00:04 Mirroring and such? 21:00:21 Four rotations, two mirrors - any others? 21:00:32 zfx [~zfx@host86-145-64-98.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:00:32 -!- zfx [~zfx@host86-145-64-98.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 21:00:32 zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 21:00:33 Four mirrors maybe? Brain's working slowly this afternoon. 21:02:01 Xach: http://paste.lisp.org/+2NDU might be nice if buildapp's appended a date suffix for install argument 21:02:16 You can also permute the bands (groups of three rows), chutes (groups of three columns), rows within a band, and columns within a chute. 21:02:24 And relable the digits. 21:02:41 Oh, hm, yes. 21:03:05 -!- alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:03:16 Okay, so I can make the following (conservative) assumptions: 1) number-of-puzzles = number-of-solutions * 2^81 (possibly times number of permutations) 21:03:27 -!- PokeTron [~PokeTron@unaffiliated/poketron] has quit [Quit: PokeTron] 21:03:40 2) My sample is a random sample (conservative because mine is actually a collection of hard puzzles) 21:03:43 stassats`: You are my goddamn hero. How the hell did you figure out that it was missing threads functionality that caused the problem? 21:04:06 phryk: because i'm smart! 21:04:32 Then I can compute the odds that I would get the timing data I did on my sample if there exists a puzzle that would take greater than X seconds. 21:04:46 pkhuong: if that's all right, can you give me a pointer to where I can read about how to do that? 21:04:46 stassats`: awesome explanation :D 21:05:16 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:05:23 alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #lisp 21:06:23 I think I can finish most of the core functionality and basic theming for that project tomorrow night :) 21:06:29 *_3b* wonders how many actual distint puzzles there are after all those permutations are accounted for 21:07:03 gigamonkey: You still have to assume a type of model for the distribution of puzzles in the "how long they take to solve" space. 21:07:28 -!- gkeith_lt [~gkeith@67.23.204.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:08:27 Random note - and this might have been said before - I like the notion of classifying puzzle difficulty based on the requirement that heuristic methods are required, in addition to just missing-digits. 21:08:54 gigamonkey: well, it really depends. If you want to extrapolate to solve times large than what you've observed, you'll have to assume a distribution. 21:09:22 but otherwise, it comes down to a discrete probability exercise. 21:10:04 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-177-26.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:11:16 rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 21:12:00 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-134-35.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:14:38 complete [~user@p578D161A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:58 pkhuong: I see. That makes sense. 21:16:48 Hello! I currently read up on Lisp. Why does lisp use all those parantheses? For example "(let x 1 (+x (* x 2)))" - why not just "let x 1; +x (* x 2)" ? 21:16:59 because 21:17:04 complete: it doesn't use parentheses actually. 21:18:44 complete: See http://paste.lisp.org/display/123619 21:19:30 mstevens [~mstevens@ceres.etla.org] has joined #lisp 21:19:30 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@ceres.etla.org] has quit [Changing host] 21:19:30 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 21:19:33 complete: when a lisper reads lisp code, just like the lisp reader, he sees the tree, not the parentheses that are used to denote the tree. 21:19:34 complete: your first example isn't in any Lisp that I know of. 21:20:00 pkhuong: its arc 21:20:10 ugh 21:20:17 complete: I'd advise to learn Common Lisp instead. 21:20:19 complete, parentheses are also the only element of syntax actually 21:20:27 -!- GrayMagiker [~steve@c-174-56-88-247.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:20:33 gkeith_lt [~gkeith@216.239.45.130] has joined #lisp 21:20:45 complete: actually, there is more than one level of "syntax" in lisp. 21:21:34 so in common lisp, how would you write this: x=1; x+=x*2; ? 21:21:35 complete: parentheses are just used in the serialization format. See: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/3050088218d355e5 21:21:41 <_3b> : and numbers are more basic than lists, ( is just a reader macro :p 21:21:53 complete: you would write a scanner and parser, and hook it to the lisp reader with reader macros. 21:22:34 pjb: what?? 21:22:37 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:22:38 <_3b> (let ((x 1)) (incf c (* x 2)))? 21:22:39 Vivitron [~user@pool-71-174-61-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:41 what what? 21:22:44 <_3b> s/c/x 21:23:50 hmm... "(let ((x 1)) (incf x (* x 2)))" looks dramatically complex compared to x=1;x+=x*2 21:23:53 complete: you can read any syntax in lisp. See for example: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_frm/thread/245342429c61800/f7966bf3df9f716c?lnk=gst&q=objcl#f7966bf3df9f716c 21:24:03 complete: actually, it is much simplier. 21:24:12 <_3b> noe that LET forms are expressions just like any other, so you could do (let ((x (let ((y 1)) (+ y 3)))) x) which would be harder with your syntax 21:24:32 complete: you can know what operation is being applied by just looking at the CAR of each sexp. 21:24:39 <_3b> (not that you /should/ do that in most cases) 21:25:00 _3b: what does "(let ((x (let ((y 1)) (+ y 3)))) x)" do? 21:25:17 complete: you don't need to know priority orders of operators to know what the expression is. You don't need a special separator to allow for variable arity. You don't know to know in advance the arity of an operator. 21:25:40 <_3b> it binds x to the value returned by (let ((y 1)) (+ y 3)), 4 in this case, then returns x 21:25:45 complete: using sexps lets you process the code knowning almost nothing about it. 21:25:53 and you don't need to know that x+=x*2; is undefined (in C and C++) 21:26:02 complete: and this is the point of lisp: to be able to process the code easily. 21:26:04 shaq- [~shaq@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 21:26:33 kennyd: undefined? 21:27:06 i dont get it. 21:27:18 undefined in which order "x*2" and "x+=" are computed 21:27:19 no my mistake, ignore me. for some reaosn i parsed that as x += x++; 21:27:24 ? 21:27:32 hello 21:27:54 for now, i write this whole lisp thing off as pure nerd crazyness :) 21:27:55 complete: to understand the lisp code, you only need to know what symbol denotes a special operator (and the evaluation rule of each special operator) there are only 25 special operators in CL; what symbol denotes a macro (and the evaluation rule for each macros), and the rest are functions with a simple specific evaluation rule. 21:28:30 <_3b> complete: that's true of most languages though :p 21:28:52 <_3b> aside from cobol, maybe ada... which are pure crazyness from other demographics :) 21:29:11 complete: What intrigues you enough to ponder the topic in the first place? 21:29:23 complete: in CL, try: (let ((expr (progn (format *query-io* "Please enter an expression in X: ") (finish-output *query-io*) (read *query-io*)))) (eval (list 'let '((x 1)) expr))) 21:29:25 _3b: well, my grandmother could read "x=y+1"... 21:29:33 Then type (* 3 x) 21:29:35 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:29:44 complete: your grandmother is not a programmer. 21:29:59 <_3b> and if you optimize your programming for single-line programs with 2 operators, you will probably lose very quickly 21:30:02 complete: your grandmother would be totally puzzed by: x=x+1 21:30:04 complete: really? I would think many people would read `=' as equality, not assignment 21:30:06 complete: what is the purpose of your visit? to tell us we are stupid and should really abandon lisp? 21:30:06 <_3b> *your programming language 21:30:08 My grandmother could read russian. 21:30:14 What does that say about english? 21:30:22 (and arc commits the same idiociy of using = as setf). 21:30:30 shaq-: Did you want to ask something? 21:30:49 sshirokov: im interested in coding for a long time now. started when i was 12. always interested in software. build some successful tech companies. and somehow i thought today: hey, why not look into lisp! some smart guys use it. so lets see what its about. 21:31:23 complete: indeed, Paul Graham used clisp to build ViaWeb and make his fortune. 21:31:28 pjb: thats true! I was puzzled by x=x+1 when i read it first!! i can still remember that day and my confusion :) 21:31:29 complete: notice, he didn't use arc. 21:31:33 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-46-38.iburst.co.za] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:31:35 He used Common Lisp. 21:31:44 <_3b> apparently "why not" is "because you are prejudiced against it by your existing knowledge and don't want to actually learn it" :) 21:31:45 -!- sellout1 [~Adium@195.91.109.15] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:32:09 complete: in CL, there's no confusion, we use (setf x (+ 1 x)). or rather, (incf x). 21:32:16 hey, i did not say anything bad about lisp. why all the anger? 21:32:25 <_3b> people new to lisp tend to want to make the same sorts of changes, but somehow most of them end up not wanting to any more by the time they have learned enough to actually make the changes 21:32:33 i just said for NOW i write it of as nerd crazyness. 21:32:34 complete: don't worry. It's because all newbies come with those same questions 21:32:40 <_3b> (and lisp is flexible enough to replace the syntax if you want to) 21:32:58 complete: be sure to read my answers, and the links I gave you. 21:32:59 i just dont get the benefits of lisp yet 21:33:08 It's in my answers. 21:33:15 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216.239.45.22] has quit [Quit: Offline] 21:33:19 i mean.. whats an example of what is cool in lisp? 21:33:20 <_3b> complete: you suggest lisp is overly complex, not readable by grandmothers, etc as if those were bad things 21:33:20 _3b: and Lispers are inflexible enough to make sure you don't want to! 21:33:31 The benefit of lisp is that it makes it trivial to write program processing code. 21:33:46 complete: type /topic RET in your IRC window. 21:33:56 i mean EXAMPLE 21:34:02 complete: if you just started looking into lisp, you may be interested in this online book: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 21:34:05 kpreid [~kpreid@216.239.45.22] has joined #lisp 21:34:10 complete: I gave you an example. Read my answers! 21:34:18 taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:24 complete: scroll back and read again. 21:34:47 pjb: no cute oneliner that shows some benefit of lisp? 21:35:01 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216.239.45.22] has quit [Client Quit] 21:35:03 <_3b> lisp is optimized for large programs, not "one liners" 21:35:19 for example if i would be asked whats cool about javascript... 21:35:24 let me think :) 21:35:27 Most lines that start with (defmacro ..) show something cool 21:35:31 -!- gkeith_lt [~gkeith@216.239.45.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:35:50 I would say "It's closer to lisp than it could've been, so I don't want to kill myself when I write web code" 21:36:03 :) 21:36:04 complete: other examples can be found in http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~fateman/papers/ADIL.pdf 21:36:10 complete: I gave you a cute oneliner above! 21:36:14 complete: why don't you read my answers? 21:36:16 var [red,gree,blue]=get_colors({"tv":"samsung",speed:3}); 21:36:32 ^ shows some stuff i like about js 21:36:42 complete: we've been over this. That's not standard JS. 21:36:53 sykopomp: hehe, ok :) 21:37:09 sykopomp: sure its not in the lates js spec? 21:37:11 complete: just scroll back and read again, including the links I gave. 21:37:27 <_3b> (+ (if foo 1 2) 3) is something i like about lisp... everything is an expression, no silly statements 21:37:39 what i like about Lisp: Lisp 21:37:42 complete: it doesn't -need- to be in any lisp spec. Macros let us write such syntax if we want. 21:38:04 (multiple-value-bind (red green blue) (get-colors :tv :samsung :speed 3) ...) ? 21:38:08 the fact that you're bringing this up again makes me think you're just not listening, and will not listen in the future. 21:39:31 _3b: how is that better then "(foo ? 1 : 2) + 3" ? 21:39:43 complete: better question: why should we convince you that it is cool(or better)? Use it or don't use it. 21:39:59 complete can you do the same with switch statement? 21:40:03 <_3b> complete: it works with anything, not just IF 21:40:18 1 + switch (..) { } ? 21:40:19 jiacobucci: why? i dont know about you, but i like to discuss the pros and cons of languages 21:40:29 this is pointless, we won't be able to persuade you that Lisp is good unless you really want to learn it 21:40:33 You're discussing "cool" and "uncool"... 21:40:47 _3b: then give me a lisp specific example that makes something more elegant then in a c like language 21:41:04 you won't accept it 21:41:16 complete: (format t "~r" 12091230129309123810298120938) 21:41:20 Can you give up yet? 21:41:21 stassats`: i dont want you to persuade me. i just came here cause i was curious about lisp 21:41:28 complete what's more elegant is that lisp doesn't require special syntax for it, if is expression. so is switch equivalent. loop can return values too 21:41:32 complete: as folks have said, Lisp is more about writing large interesting software than one liners. If you want to see a interesting example you'll need to read something more than folks can type in IRC. 21:41:37 complete: you show more prejudice than open curiosity 21:42:03 Someone pointed you to http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ The first couple of chapters of that are the shortest way *I* know to explain why one might want to learn more. 21:42:08 if you were truly curious about Lisp, you would've picked a book about it and tried reading it 21:42:11 stassats`: not at all. you just go nuts because i said that so far i dont get the benefits of lisp 21:42:34 <_3b> complete: no, because you expect us to explain them in single lines of code 21:42:50 <_3b> and then reject the single lines because they are too simple 21:42:52 complete: no, we go nuts because manifestly you don't read anything of what we write or link here. 21:43:09 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-46-145.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:44:08 so how many lines does it need to show the qualities of lisp? 21:44:15 -!- bobbysmith0071 is now known as bobbysmith007 21:44:22 complete: discuss some semantics then, not syntax. Syntax is just a way for use to write down ideas. Depending on a subjective measure, one is better than the other. 21:44:40 s/use/us 21:45:19 complete: you won't understand neither of them, unless you learn Lisp first 21:45:19 <_3b> complete: however many lines are in PCL and PAIP and AMOP :) 21:45:40 complete: 26. See http://gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-building-a-unit-test-framework.html 21:46:21 Lispers tend to put less emphasis on microsyntactic tricks and more emphasis on clarity in description 21:46:42 adeht: but the exceptions are a real doozy. 21:46:44 see PG 21:46:46 :( 21:47:03 he's no true lisper 21:47:08 sykopomp: what do you expect of a vimmer :D 21:48:09 maybe people are just different 21:48:26 to me, microsyntactic stuff matters too 21:48:33 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:48:53 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 21:48:59 for example i hate js for the "var" thingy 21:49:15 that every variable that is not declared with "var" is global. 21:49:24 so you see var var var var everywhere in js code. ugly. 21:49:48 You sound like you'd be exceedingly happy in python. 21:49:49 and i love it for object creation via {} 21:49:53 mmauryc [~mmmau@stu233-58.bard.edu] has joined #lisp 21:50:40 complete: I'm glad your here to learn lisp. What other lisp related questions are you not able to resolve that you believe the fine folks of #lisp might help you to resolve? 21:50:41 and for example i like php for having $ in front of every variable 21:51:04 mon_key: "why all the parantheses" is still my main question 21:51:12 because we like them 21:51:13 complete: because they allow other things. 21:51:19 You like lots of "$", but not lots of "var"? 21:51:26 because they're delicious! 21:51:35 burp! 21:52:04 Bike: the $ makes clear that it is a variable. so it has a purpose. the var is just there to fix the crazy idea that by default every variable is global. 21:52:28 That's crazy, huh. 21:52:32 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:52:46 (let (($a 1))) seems annoying :( 21:52:52 complete: Common Lisper's are not able to resolve this problem for you because they have chosen to see it as a non problem. You would benefit by doing the same. 21:52:54 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 21:53:00 complete: no, you're just really confused about scoping. 21:53:24 complete: why all the line noise is my main question. 21:54:06 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:54:15 *_3b* thinks the idea that every unknown symbol is a var of any sort is crazy :p 21:54:30 to be honest, i think you are dinosaurs on a sinking arche noah :) 21:54:49 now everybody hates me... 21:54:54 and you're wondering why you're not welcome here? 21:55:13 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:55:24 complete: I don't hate you. I am, however, confused why you are in this channel. 21:55:27 You might want to pick a better example than Noah 21:55:30 He tended to save humanity. 21:55:45 sshirokov: i said SINKING arche noah 21:56:00 What's an arche? 21:56:06 You're just jealous of our submarine "arche" 21:56:09 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-46-145.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 21:56:16 Built out of parenthesis 21:56:29 sshirokov: not jealous. but would like to know what its benefits are. 21:56:29 Very hydrodynamic characters. 21:56:32 there must be some. 21:56:53 More even wear on the () jeys 21:56:54 gkeith_lt [~gkeith@67.23.204.2] has joined #lisp 21:56:54 complete: because they allow other things. 21:56:55 keys, too 21:56:56 <_3b> complete: there are none, it is just a huge troll to trick people like you 21:57:03 -!- jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.56] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:57:03 i earn money with it, enough benefits for me 21:57:11 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-38-156-210.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:57:15 <_3b> we've been working on it for decades, it is pretty effective by now :) 21:57:32 why should i preach before some shmuck who can't do his own research? 21:57:39 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-156-210.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:43 sshirokov: what kind of software do you write? 21:57:56 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 21:57:58 I write network software. 21:58:35 Wait 21:58:38 Let me try again. 21:58:40 complete: Executable. 21:58:42 :D 21:59:36 hmm... 22:00:08 ok. midnight here in germany. 22:00:15 im going to sleep now. 22:00:16 I love Indian mixed pickle. I don't expect everyone to like it. 22:00:20 dreaming of parantheses. 22:00:33 thanks for the discussion! 22:00:35 good night. 22:00:45 -!- complete [~user@p578D161A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:01:14 "You know how to lisp, don't you? You just put your lips together and... blow" -- Lauren Bacall 'To Lisp and Lisp not' 22:01:30 all those "convince me X is good" are the same 22:02:33 MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:02:51 Are there Lisp discussions anywhere where that doesn't happen periodically? 22:03:14 Live ones at conferences. 22:04:09 What are some of those, by the way? 22:04:16 maybe cl-pro? 22:04:22 ILC is big. 22:04:35 ChibaPet: well, some years. 22:04:42 http://alu.org/alu/home 22:06:01 sshirokov: There's the European Common Lisp Meeting in Amsterdam in October. 22:06:14 *sshirokov* can't leave the US for a few years :( 22:06:18 Huh. 22:06:31 Russian citizen, no passport, mandatory service 22:06:35 It's real fun 22:09:03 Then you're limited to the US-based meetings. 22:09:17 Yeah, which it seems I missed for the most part 22:09:17 mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-076-182-089-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:09:31 wait, you're a russian citizen in the US without a passport? 22:09:38 -!- ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:09:42 Yeah, Greencard and the pasport lapsed. 22:09:48 argh. ): 22:10:09 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-177-26.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:10:19 Evanescence [~chris@122.237.4.223] has joined #lisp 22:10:26 -!- ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 22:10:27 that really sucks. but hey, at least you're staying in the US legally (: 22:10:29 Can't really get a passport without stepping on Russian soil, and I'm on the hook for military for ~3 more years 22:10:33 -!- MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:10:39 So I'm trying to avoid russian soil :) 22:11:02 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:11:26 I'm many years past my mandatory service deadline luckily. 22:11:37 Congrats :) 22:11:38 -!- gkeith_lt [~gkeith@67.23.204.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:11:42 ASau [~user@95-27-147-30.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 22:12:36 (And luckily mandatory service in my country has been suspended for the past two or so years (and probably for good).) 22:12:43 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has joined #lisp 22:13:20 antoszka: not exactly 22:13:28 p_l|backup: Not exactly which part? 22:13:44 (I knew you'd say something :)) 22:14:06 antoszka: we didn't scrap mandatory service, it's just that we don't have the mandatory training drafted every year 22:14:14 *p_l|backup* was in last one or two 22:15:08 every male over 18 (and everyone in medical field) is still required to register 22:15:18 i'll just remind you that the topic is still mandatory here 22:15:30 :) 22:15:50 Back to the topic  I've been test driving Strida the -bike today. 22:16:22 Wait.. what's the point of that? (this?: http://www.strida.us/) 22:16:42 sshirokov: Yeah, look at the shape. 22:17:00 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA39985.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:17:00 doesn't look on-topic, and besides, it's ugly 22:17:37 greaver [~Sarge@41.138.11.188] has joined #lisp 22:18:21 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:18:51 kpreid [~kpreid@216.239.45.18] has joined #lisp 22:21:36 haha, bike riding (and rollerblading) used to be very much on-topic here a few years ago (; 22:21:56 All hackers rollerblade as demonstrated in the 1995 Documentary Hackers. 22:22:03 *sshirokov* goes home 22:22:10 it is known. 22:22:22 sshirokov: No, you can't, you have to stay in the US 22:22:50 -!- tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Quit: sleeping] 22:23:28 MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:25:07 -!- Davidbrcz_ [~david@ANantes-151-1-214-155.w2-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:29:05 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:29:57 ngz [~user@209.141.80.79.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 22:31:14 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:32:56 -!- SuChek_ [~SuChek@unaffiliated/suchek] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:35:44 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:36:01 I don't suppose anyone has written an CL library to parse literal Python (the language) data structures? 22:37:02 Doesn't cl-python fulfill that postulate? (just guessing, never looked at the project any closer) 22:37:36 it might do too much if you parse non-friendly input 22:40:00 stassats`: too much as in launch the missiles? 22:40:23 zmv [~Telefonic@187.34.55.53] has joined #lisp 22:40:32 yes 22:43:11 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:43:17 Anyway, I was only vaguely aware of that project. I'll look at it. Thanks. 22:44:14 zmv_ [~Telefonic@187.34.55.53] has joined #lisp 22:44:46 dsrguru [~dsr@ool-44c78c16.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:06 -!- taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:47:39 is Hunchentoot pronounced [hnçntot] as in German or [hntntut] as in English? 22:47:49 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.34.55.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:48:29 -!- zmv_ is now known as zmv 22:48:49 How does Frank Zappa pronounce it? 22:49:21 ^ 22:50:38 I guess we'll have to pull him out of the grave and ask 22:50:40 -!- sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:51:02 daedra [daedra@unaffiliated/daedra] has joined #lisp 22:51:21 mrSpec [~Spec@pool-151-204-255-122.bstnma.btas.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:21 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@pool-151-204-255-122.bstnma.btas.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:51:21 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 22:52:56 oh on the subject of hunchentoot, I'm looking for a CL equivalent of Racket's continuation-based web framework 22:53:02 do people use web4r? 22:55:10 dsrguru: Uncommon Web. 22:56:17 there's also weblocks 22:56:48 luckily, no exhumation is required: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2IDmn8uF60#t=158s 22:57:12 ISF [~ivan@187.106.54.41] has joined #lisp 22:58:06 pjb: that looks really interesting 22:58:09 rpg- [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 22:58:24 -!- rpg- [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Client Quit] 22:58:32 adeht: has weblocks been discontinued? the site says it's probably out of date and to check the new site, but that new site doesn't load 22:58:42 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.116.187] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:59:56 stassats`: at about 2:38 he says [hntntut] as in English 22:59:57 thanks! 23:00:18 well, that's what i was pointing out 23:00:33 #t=158s is 2:38 23:00:41 dsrguru: activity here --> http://groups.google.com/group/weblocks/topics 23:00:44 I know, I wasn't sure if you had listened to it or just found the clip 23:01:10 adeht: good 23:01:44 oh, the latest post says "even if the project was abandoned" 23:01:52 -!- rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:02:00 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:02:49 taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:49 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:04:23 pjb: it looks like uncommon web doesn't provide a lot for rapid prototyping 23:04:35 pjb: do you know of any good frameworks built atop uncommon web? 23:05:12 rakete [~user@static.228.2.63.178.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lisp 23:05:49 zmv_ [~Telefonic@187.34.55.53] has joined #lisp 23:07:28 No. You may browse http://cliki.net/ if there's something it will be referenced there. 23:07:40 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@p4FCDF468.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 23:07:50 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.34.55.53] has quit [Disconnected by services] 23:07:53 will it? 23:07:54 -!- zmv_ is now known as zmv 23:08:02 Yes. 23:08:05 -!- MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:08:14 lisp-on-lines is there 23:08:27 There's the new clacklisp.org thing, too. 23:12:26 thanks guys 23:13:12 MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:14:38 Mococa [~Mococa@187.59.133.60] has joined #lisp 23:17:55 gkeith_lt [~gkeith@67.23.204.2] has joined #lisp 23:18:12 -!- taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:20:02 -!- HG`` [~HG@p5DC05095.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: HG``] 23:20:27 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.59.133.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:21:16 -!- MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:22:15 *zmv* checks clacklisp.org out 23:22:36 Looks great. 23:22:41 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:22:42 it does look good 23:22:55 How does it compare to lisp-on-lines, overall? 23:23:07 also it appears that the author of weblocks ended up switching to UCW 23:25:46 zmv_ [~Telefonic@187.34.55.53] has joined #lisp 23:26:42 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 23:29:30 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.34.55.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:30:03 -!- zmv_ is now known as zmv 23:31:07 -!- gkeith_lt [~gkeith@67.23.204.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:37:20 gkeith_lt [~gkeith@67.23.204.2] has joined #lisp 23:41:34 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 23:41:46 Mococa [~Mococa@187.59.133.60] has joined #lisp 23:45:53 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:48:40 zmv_ [~Telefonic@187.34.55.53] has joined #lisp 23:51:43 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.34.55.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:53:04 Deathaholic [~Mococa@187.59.133.60] has joined #lisp 23:53:12 -!- zmv_ [~Telefonic@187.34.55.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:53:42 zmv [~Telefonic@187.34.55.53] has joined #lisp 23:54:17 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:55:12 -!- benny [~benny@i577A8F75.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:56:10 Xof [~user@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 23:56:11 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.59.133.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:56:54 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:57:36 -!- Kryztof [~user@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:57:47 -!- greaver [~Sarge@41.138.11.188] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:58:26 -!- gkeith_lt [~gkeith@67.23.204.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]