00:03:13 Xach: thanks. can you start it? 00:03:24 -!- Joreji [~thomas@83-096.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:08:04 it's very broken... 00:08:43 lars_: Worked for me. How is it broken for you? 00:09:45 said Unhandled event, key release or something, then stopped 00:11:27 sellout [~Adium@195.91.111.215] has joined #lisp 00:11:53 No defined mouse translation information for button 5. debugger invoked on a SIMPLE-CONDITION in thread #: Error in error handler; Hemlock broken. 00:12:17 Probably not updated for newfangled scrollwheel and manybutton mice. 00:12:38 yeah, I just got the same thing when I tried to scroll with the scrollwheel. 00:12:45 one option: don't try that. 00:13:33 hah, yeah 00:13:53 maybe i should try something else, like clfswm 00:15:33 urandom__ [~user@p548A482B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:22 What kind of application are you interested in? Something X-related? 00:17:57 something i can play with 00:18:07 -!- looopy [~looopy@adsl-074-236-131-226.sip.cae.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:21:19 i'm haskeller&ocamler, but i want to try lisp out to experience dynamic lang 00:22:57 mrSpec [~Spec@pool-151-204-255-122.bstnma.btas.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:22:57 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@pool-151-204-255-122.bstnma.btas.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 00:22:57 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 00:30:13 yeah, stumpwm can work 00:36:13 hypercube32 [~hypercube@231.125.189.72.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:36:50 nowl [~nowl@c-71-233-2-216.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:36:53 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.56.212] has joined #lisp 00:41:02 looopy [~looopy@adsl-074-236-131-226.sip.cae.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:41:27 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.56.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:41:39 what do you use lisp for? 00:42:11 -!- sellout [~Adium@195.91.111.215] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:44:38 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.56.212] has joined #lisp 00:45:01 let's see. To write a lisp compiler and runtime; random numerical experiment when the speed of interactive development and data analysis outweighs the usual ~2x slowdown versus C; prototyping numerical optimisation methods; random scripting stuff like driving benchmark suites and producing my blog from latex sources. 00:47:13 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 00:47:56 -!- puddingpimp [exvqfcuc@118-93-71-58.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:50:04 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-75-41.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:51:52 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-69.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:52:15 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-69.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:52:32 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-25-37.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:53:03 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@130.56.92.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:02:46 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483BAEB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:06:34 i know this is probably a silly question but my google foo is failing me. is there a standard way to read a single key press in CL? i.e. can i make a "press any key to continue" message. i'm sure i'm just thinking about it wrong. 01:07:40 tali713: read-char? 01:07:46 Siliconjesus [~Jeremy@host-8-174.ilcu3rd.clients.pavlovmedia.com] has joined #lisp 01:08:23 -!- rolando [~user@88.34.103.87.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:08:24 Of course, that works with characters, not keypresses, so depending on buffering at any level between your keyboard and your program, it might not work. 01:09:10 unfortunately that pulls a character off of the input stream (at least in my naive understanding), i'm looking for something that will read immediately from the keyboard, not wait until the input has been flushed. 01:09:34 you'd need to open the terminal for that afaik 01:10:10 "press return to continue" (: 01:10:15 heh 01:10:50 and then i made a variant of tetris, and the only issue was, you have to hit return every time you move. :) 01:11:04 tali713: read-char-no-hang 01:11:19 however, this doesn't preclude buffering done by the OS. 01:11:31 There's also LISTEN. 01:11:58 probably any number of crappy curses wrappers 01:12:38 oGMo: yeah, i suppose i could just take the lazy way out. 01:12:58 google isn't turning up anything for a pure lisp termio 01:12:59 tali713: use clisp and ext:*keyboard-input* ? 01:14:05 pjb: i saw that, was wondering if there was something portable. but that will do. 01:15:53 it's not a big deal, since i will almost certainly be using a UI abstraction layer in anything practical anyways. 01:17:08 ah ha, i found something. thanks all for the help. 01:17:42 nicdev [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 01:18:13 trivial-raw-io's source was quite enlightening. 01:18:28 tali713: cl-ncurses. 01:20:13 pjb: thank you, looking there next. 01:22:51 -!- elliottcable [~elliottca@ec2-174-129-205-205.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:26:58 or at that point, just clx or something heh 01:29:43 arquebus [~arquebus@189.221.12.73.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has joined #lisp 01:30:34 oGMo: i think that's a bit heavy for writing a terminal oriented program. i would avoid curses entirely, but it provides me with what i really need. 01:30:37 -!- looopy [~looopy@adsl-074-236-131-226.sip.cae.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:31:17 tali713: you really just need to syscalls. 01:31:26 ioctl(2) and read(2). 01:32:02 pjb: yeah, i realized this as i was looking at the source for trivial-raw-io. 01:32:09 elliottcable [~elliottca@ec2-174-129-205-205.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 01:32:26 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216.239.45.16] has quit [Quit: Offline] 01:34:50 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 01:35:01 -!- lars_ [cfed4bef@gateway/web/freenode/ip.207.237.75.239] has 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[iwkkhv@118-92-4-122.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:11:29 everyman [~user@blk-224-153-99.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 03:11:37 -!- everyman [~user@blk-224-153-99.eastlink.ca] has left #lisp 03:11:45 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-244-81.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:13:01 pnq1 [~nick@AC826BF4.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 03:13:33 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA33868.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:13:43 -!- pnq1 is now known as pnq 03:13:58 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:17:06 ISF [~ivan@187.106.54.41] has joined #lisp 03:21:26 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:21:48 in a macro (setf ,@declarations) expands to (SETF (var value). anything else I can do besides calling flatten? 03:22:34 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has left #lisp 03:23:39 kennyd: Declarations is a list containing a list of var and value? 03:23:45 -!- Evanescence [~chris@122.237.29.189] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 03:24:03 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-137-54.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:24:14 Evanescence [~chris@122.237.29.189] has joined #lisp 03:24:34 yes 03:25:13 (setf ,@(first declarations))? 03:25:25 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:25:35 I want them all in setf 03:26:56 `(setf ,@(loop for (x y) in declarations collect x collect y)) 03:27:31 nice :). thanks 03:27:37 Or `(progn ,@(loop for d in declarations collect `(setf ,@d))) 03:28:11 `(setf ,@(mapcan #'identity declarations)) 03:28:52 `(setf ,@(apply #'append declarations)) 03:28:53 etc 03:29:35 I think apply #'append wins. thanks too 03:30:04 Be wary of the argument count limit. 03:30:19 Be careful with mapcan as declarations is likely to be a literal list which mapcan will destructively modify. 03:30:21 true didnt think of that 03:30:26 zhuchong530 [~wangchang@124.114.69.160] has joined #lisp 03:30:42 With consequent possible nasal daemon outbreaks. 03:30:45 -!- zhuchong530 [~wangchang@124.114.69.160] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 03:31:29 does standard set minimum argument count limit? they are let-like declarations, so I probably won't reach it 03:31:41 zhuchong530 [~wangchang@124.114.69.160] has joined #lisp 03:31:41 mapcan #'copy-list then ;) 03:31:42 `(setf ,@(loop for d in declarations append d)) 03:31:49 Phoodus: yeah. 03:32:00 -!- zhuchong530 [~wangchang@124.114.69.160] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 03:32:52 zhuchong530 [~wangchang@124.114.69.160] has joined #lisp 03:33:04 kennyd: it's 50. see: 03:33:05 clhs call-arguments-limit 03:33:06 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_call_a.htm 03:33:20 -!- zhuchong530 [~wangchang@124.114.69.160] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 03:34:10 however, that does not apply to SETF, because SETF is a macro 03:34:36 It applies to apply. 03:34:41 and while macro definitions are functions, they are functions of *two* arguments (see MACRO-FUNCTION) 03:34:52 Ah, true, missed that in the discussion. 03:35:05 append, even. 03:35:36 zhuchong530 [~wangchang@124.114.69.160] has joined #lisp 03:35:49 -!- zhuchong530 [~wangchang@124.114.69.160] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 03:36:48 ah, there we go: (reduce #'append declarations) 03:37:00 shouldn't be any limitations there 03:37:08 make sure to append from the right end. 03:38:43 that should retain the original ordering 03:39:04 no, that's not the point. 03:39:18 Phoodus: n^2? 03:39:29 yep, but shorter ;) and compile-time 03:39:49 shorter than mapcan/copy-list? 03:39:50 I think loop/append wins over that. 03:40:29 it's 1 character shorter than mapcan #'identity 03:40:44 erm, yeah shorter than copy-list as well 03:41:46 while it's definitely the slowest listed method, I think it's a bit closer to being concisest in terms of showing intent 03:42:04 and concicest is now a word 03:42:16 it might have a shot as concisest. 03:42:18 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:42:23 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 03:42:47 But still, good to know people don't care about compile times. 03:43:28 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 03:45:12 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Client Quit] 03:46:20 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 03:46:23 pkhuong: I'm all wrapped up in functional language design, so going whole-hog with directly stated intent is what I'm exercising 03:46:42 but yeah, not recommended for getting fast compile times at all :) 03:47:12 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 03:48:10 -!- ISF [~ivan@187.106.54.41] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:54:42 Spion_ [~spion@79.125.200.198] has joined #lisp 03:54:43 -!- Spion_ [~spion@79.125.200.198] has quit [Changing host] 03:54:43 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 03:59:51 -!- Evanescence [~chris@122.237.29.189] has quit [Quit: 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joined #lisp 05:20:54 -!- schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:25:20 mburke [~max@S0106000c41f2f3de.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:25:21 is that normal that the third parameter in a DEFPARAMETER form is fontified using the string face, and not the doc face, in emacs ? 05:25:35 it's done correcty for a DEFVAR form 05:29:09 -!- dnolen_ [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen_] 05:29:45 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 05:30:43 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:32:06 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-vedbmhamubqemxfi] has joined #lisp 05:39:46 pnq [~nick@AC816CC0.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 05:40:15 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-90-49.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:52:36 -!- ASau [~user@95-27-147-30.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:53:34 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:53:34 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.59.130.251] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:53:48 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 05:54:09 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.116.187] has joined #lisp 05:59:54 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:00:07 wivlaro [~bill@craftsmanltd.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:01:09 how can i quote a sharp feature check? '#-win32 doesn't work 06:01:43 You can't. Why do you want to? 06:02:00 a code generator 06:02:53 i'm generating code in one environment to be compiled in different environments. 06:04:46 Well, those conditionals are read-time devices. Maybe you could use *features*? 06:13:03 -!- symbole [~user@ool-4a5a4bdd.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:13:05 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:14:03 nostoi [~nostoi@156.Red-80-39-205.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 06:16:22 -!- setmeaway [stemearay@183.106.96.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:17:27 clsimons [~csimons@c-98-202-21-204.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:17:54 fourier [~user@213.141.149.93] has joined #lisp 06:18:21 If I want to make a vector containing the elements I have in a list, how would I do this? (I have (list 1 2 3) and want to change it to #(1 2 3).) 06:19:11 (apply #'vector ls)? 06:19:42 -!- pnq [~nick@AC816CC0.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:20:05 Thanks. That is exactly what I needed. Tonight is my first night trying to write a nontrivial Lisp program; thank you. 06:20:53 ASau [~user@95-27-147-30.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 06:21:00 Is a string a vector of characters? 06:22:26 clhs string 06:22:26 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_string.htm 06:22:27 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@static-50-43-53-7.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 06:22:28 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@static-50-43-53-7.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [Changing host] 06:22:28 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 06:22:58 Ah, thank you for the reference. 06:24:29 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@156.Red-80-39-205.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 06:25:39 According to the HyperSpec a string is a vector of characters, but when I enter "(apply #'vector (list #\H #\i))" I expect to see "Hi" but instead I see the vector #(#\H #\i) 06:26:29 That's because #'vector returns an unspecialized vector, I think, whereas a string is a vector of characters. 06:26:49 Try coerce. 06:27:04 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:28:33 good morning 06:30:33 That does the trick. If I do the apply #'vector and then a coerce with 'string, I get it back as a string. Thanks again guys! 06:31:30 You can just coerce a list to a string, iirc. 06:32:40 Ah, thanks. 06:32:50 jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-145.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:34:00 Good morning! 06:35:22 sellout [~Adium@195.91.109.215] has joined #lisp 06:40:42 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 06:45:30 -!- chp [~chp@110.204.162.173] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:46:18 chp [~chp@76.191.104.101] has joined #lisp 06:47:29 god morning serichsen 06:48:03 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-bvlgbahirtxluvhn] has left #lisp 06:50:21 trigen [c1aca602@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.172.166.2] has joined #lisp 06:55:43 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 06:56:06 -!- ollkorrekt [~psych069@87.246.39.12] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:57:36 -!- clsimons [~csimons@c-98-202-21-204.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:06:39 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-145.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:09:10 -!- mburke [~max@S0106000c41f2f3de.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:12:18 benny [~benny@i577A84C9.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 07:20:56 gravicappa [~gravicapp@p57A400D1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:22:51 mburke [~max@S0106000c41f2f3de.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 07:22:52 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-54-189.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:23:57 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:24:30 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-52-167.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:24:43 -!- insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-52-167.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Changing host] 07:24:43 insomnia1alt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 07:27:49 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:27:49 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 07:28:58 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-119-188.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 07:29:58 vervic [~vervic@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 07:30:20 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-58-167.lns3.dea.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 07:32:41 e-user [~e-user@nat/nokia/x-jzdmuhohkaiyjhpt] has joined #lisp 07:32:57 jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-46-38.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:33:14 -!- vervic [~vervic@84.114.246.246] has quit [Client Quit] 07:34:03 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:36:01 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-016-201.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:37:33 lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 07:38:56 s0ber_ [~s0ber@111-240-164-228.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 07:39:22 a7p [a7p@9.83.238.89.in-addr.arpa.manitu.net] has joined #lisp 07:39:43 kennyd_ [~kennyd@93.138.214.239] has joined #lisp 07:40:28 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-45-30.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:40:47 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-164-228.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:40:59 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 07:53:14 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 07:54:32 Evanescence [~chris@122.237.29.189] has joined #lisp 07:55:23 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 07:59:00 -!- bhaskara [~user@c-98-248-43-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 07:59:05 francogrex [~user@109.130.119.230] has joined #lisp 07:59:41 Hi, it's a hashing table question again. Can someone suggest a better way to do this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/123527 ? 08:00:19 I don't think there is anything worse than the code now... can I pull it off with hash or do I have to use bit-vectors or other structures 08:02:39 basically, I have 2 files, trying to match entries in one on entries in the larger one.. tokenize is just splitting read lines alone delimiters (tabs here) 08:03:01 francogrex: first off, i'd use destructuring-bind instead of the cad+r madness 08:03:25 <_3b> or just let LOOP destructure it 08:03:43 vervic [~vervic@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 08:04:15 ok 08:04:24 francogrex: what _3b says. if you use loop, you may as well totally use it and loose the let in there 08:04:42 <_3b> and put the DO at the beginning of a clause in LOOP, not at the end 08:05:21 like : (loop for line = (read-line str nil) do while line ... ? 08:05:38 francogrex: not at the end of a line, but at the beginning. 08:05:44 -!- vervic [~vervic@84.114.246.246] has quit [Client Quit] 08:05:44 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 08:06:07 <_3b> "while line" on one line, then "DO ..." on another, not "while line do" on one line 08:06:48 francogr` [~user@109.130.119.230] has joined #lisp 08:07:06 *_3b* can't figure out what that nested loop in the 2nd part is trying to do 08:07:54 the nested loop is trying to match entries in the Link file on the values (nth 0) and the keys in the hash table 08:08:00 <_3b> better names would help, link-file and m-file or something rather than str0 and str, similarly for temp 08:08:12 and if there is a match add it to (nth 1 value) 08:09:07 I think the looping here is inefficient... what I need maybe is something like SQL joins on two tables 08:09:57 <_3b> i'm more wondering why you read M again, since you already read it once 08:10:06 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.119.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:11:05 _3b: the first time around I only set the keys and make the values (list nil nil)... 08:11:33 it's not the best practice I know, I'm sure it could be done in one go but can't figure it out here.. 08:13:43 daniel___ [~daniel@p5082B3FD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:14:08 -!- francogr` is now known as francogrex 08:15:17 *francogrex* wishes there was some relational database written entirely in CL 08:16:35 -!- daniel_ [~daniel@p5082A3A3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:17:06 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:19:46 didn't PCL had very, very primitive one? 08:21:53 yes in chapter 3, but it's hardly an efficient relational DB of the likes of oracle or SQLITE... 08:22:41 and it's not really ... because everytime the whole thing has to be loaded into memory to be worked upon 08:23:42 francogrex: for starters, i'd recommend that you load your data into data structures that are easier to manipulate and reason about. 08:24:36 blandest [~blandest@85.204.33.242] has joined #lisp 08:24:55 -!- blandest [~blandest@85.204.33.242] has left #lisp 08:25:14 francogrex: well, keeping something the size of Oracle in your codebase doesn't sound sane ;-) 08:25:14 blandest [~blandest@85.204.33.242] has joined #lisp 08:25:59 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 08:26:05 H4ns: I need hash tables at least to process the duplicates... for each key I may have several entries in (nth 0 value) 08:26:53 p_l|backup: I think if one can write something like sqlite in C, it should be doable in cl as well 08:27:04 francogrex: i'm not doubting that. i just think that "(nth 0 value)" is hard to read and understand. too hard for me, at least, to consider talking about your problem in more detail. 08:29:01 -!- looopy [~looopy@adsl-074-236-131-226.sip.cae.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:29:07 francogrex: well, SQLite and Oracle and similar are rather different. It would be also slightly easier in CL if you dropped SQL 08:29:18 schme [~marcus@c83-254-205-42.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 08:29:18 -!- schme [~marcus@c83-254-205-42.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Changing host] 08:29:18 schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 08:30:27 franco: What problem are you trying to solve? 08:31:08 http://marijnhaverbeke.nl/postmodern/ is pretty nice? .. it can generate sql via a lisp dsl 08:34:32 Hi Zhivago, I have 2 large flat tables (one with 9 col and 400,000 lines) and the other is with 1 col and ~40,000 lines... I am trying to match if there are entries in the second table that correspond to either columns 3 or 4 in the first... I'm using loops and hash tables for that but it's ineffcient 08:36:42 Are they sorted? 08:36:47 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-132-188-166.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:36:47 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-132-188-166.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 08:36:47 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:37:09 they're not sorted , no 08:37:35 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 08:37:38 If they were sorted you could simply stream through them finding matches. 08:37:50 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:37:52 I can sort them first then 08:38:05 You'd need to make two versions of the second table, I guess. 08:38:11 I mean read one at a time, sort then output.. 08:38:18 yes 08:38:26 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-137-2.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:38:31 looopy [~looopy@adsl-074-236-131-226.sip.cae.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 08:38:40 Yeah, then afterward you could just walk down the three streams in parallel, advancing the least advanced. 08:38:44 milanj [~milanj_@79-101-181-174.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 08:38:56 hmm I'll try that 08:39:02 If you want to do it in memory, then something like a skip list might do nicely. 08:39:20 francogrex: i'd just read the second file into memory, then run through the first file once. 08:39:31 francogrex: but you can certainly find more elaborate ways. 08:39:41 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:39:51 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:40:13 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 08:40:30 It doesn't sound like a large amount of data -- are you planning on expanding it? 08:41:36 francogrex, your current version is likely not only inefficient but also incorrect 08:42:03 cl-skip-list 08:42:03 seems good. Right now the data are just that 400,000 x 40,000 (approximately) 08:42:16 schaueho: possibly, but where? 08:42:36 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 08:42:57 you're advancing in the second file after each line 08:43:17 which means you're ignoring possible matches with older lines 08:44:31 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Client Quit] 08:44:56 -!- milanj [~milanj_@79-101-181-174.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:45:12 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-137-2.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:47:15 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-200-86.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:47:19 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 08:47:43 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Client Quit] 08:48:13 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-182-215-129.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 08:49:23 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-104-117.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:51:21 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 08:51:42 -!- blandest [~blandest@85.204.33.242] has left #lisp 08:54:34 markskilbeck [~mark@host-92-12-24-134.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 08:54:42 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@host-92-12-24-134.as43234.net] has quit [Changing host] 08:54:43 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 08:59:09 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:00:41 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-016-201.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:01:16 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-rpszlcujxziilety] has joined #lisp 09:02:12 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 09:02:28 blandest [~user@85.204.33.242] has joined #lisp 09:03:58 francogrex: out of curiosity, what is the larger context of your problem? 09:05:41 zfx, if you mean largest table reading is 9 columns x 400,000 rows nested along about 1 column and 40,000 rows 09:05:56 the larger context of that. :) 09:06:42 that's it I don't know later I may have larger tables but not sure. I'm processing data as they come along in batch files 09:07:52 okay, so you are batch processing. its not like they are persistent. 09:08:09 true 09:08:53 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-118-188.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:09:22 yakov [~yakov@ip-83-149-3-160.nwgsm.ru] has joined #lisp 09:11:00 is that all you need to do with those two tables? identify records in the first table whose third/fourth column contains values from the second table? (or whatever way round you want it) 09:11:17 or do you perform other analyses as well? 09:12:58 zfx: that's all for now. So I arrange the first table to contain for example: key=1345 value=((1346 5654 6765) )... 09:13:59 *_3b* would probably just make 1 array containing all the lines of the 1 file, in some nice structured format, then 2 hash tables indexing that, keyed on the 3rd and 4th columns 09:14:16 francogrex: in that case, my top-of-the-head solution would be that you can probably build an index from one of the two tables, and then use this index when looping over the second. 09:18:17 _3bs solution would work, except that I dont see why you would need to keep the original table data in memory if this is the only thing you need to do with it. 09:18:35 <_3b> true 09:19:44 hope that helped, I have to go to work. bye. 09:19:50 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:19:55 franco: Think about a merge-sort that only emits collisions. 09:21:17 -!- zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has quit [Quit: Be back later] 09:25:51 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-rpszlcujxziilety] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:26:09 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-118-188.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:26:58 *francogrex* is trying the suggestions... 09:27:43 ngz` [~user@104.236.75.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 09:29:40 DelPuerto [~youguy@55.Red-217-125-255.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:30:09 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-kwhweowlyodkfrkt] has joined #lisp 09:33:06 -!- H4ns [~user@pD4B9EF19.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:33:18 H4ns [~user@pD4B9EF19.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:35:48 -!- EyesIsMine is now known as EyeIsMine 09:36:27 -!- ympbyc [~ympbyc@122-57-176-139.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:36:35 -!- EyeIsMine is now known as EyesIsMine 09:37:47 -!- Vivitron` [~user@pool-71-174-61-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:38:44 yeah, the index though must be built on the right table (the biggest one because it's a right join kind of merge), and the loop is done with the second table... so loop ... maphash ... but still gonna take estimated 43 minutes... I'll try the other ideas. 09:38:51 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-133-202.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:39:16 francogrex: if you have a performance problem, reconsider your use of read-line 09:39:52 -!- DelPuerto [~youguy@55.Red-217-125-255.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 09:40:19 <_3b> "43 minutes" doesn't sound like a read-line issue 09:40:33 _3b: true 09:41:21 *_3b* isn't sure how you would turn "read 500k lines of text" into 43 minutes though 09:41:22 _3b: then again, with a naive implementation that reads files over and over, not using read-line would certainly have an impact. 09:42:12 <_3b> true, but if you follow that reasoning, then you'd probably want to avoid characters completely 09:42:24 <_3b> when just not rereading the files would be a much better idea 09:42:57 this is what is now : http://paste.lisp.org/display/123531 09:43:26 -!- yakov [~yakov@ip-83-149-3-160.nwgsm.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:43:35 *_3b* 's brain hurts 09:43:36 I need a different algorithm... I'm exploring the skip-list 09:43:44 (...) 09:46:04 <_3b> why not just use another hash table? 09:46:30 <_3b> or if that is the only thing you do with it, reverse the keys and values in that one 09:46:58 <_3b> also, don't name special variables without the ** 09:47:23 <_3b> and especially don't name them I, since probably every other loop uses I 09:47:37 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-kwhweowlyodkfrkt] has left #lisp 09:47:53 yakov [~yakov@ip-83-149-3-226.nwgsm.ru] has joined #lisp 09:48:18 true 09:48:23 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:48:24 hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:49:38 maphash bit is totally bonkers 09:49:48 francogrex: You can just put "for i from 0" in your loop form. But your real problem is whatever the hell you're doing with that hashtable. 09:51:35 <_3b> PUSH on a local variable won't do what you seem to want there either 09:53:37 hahah.. well back to square 0... stassats good to see you again, you've been missing for a while 09:54:01 *_3b* isn't sure exactly what that is trying to do in the first place though, since whatever that loop would add to the hash doesn't seem like it would match what is already there 09:55:17 -!- looopy [~looopy@adsl-074-236-131-226.sip.cae.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 09:55:18 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.116.187] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:55:38 fiveop [~fiveop@p4FCDFBE0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:58:53 markskil1eck [~mark@host-92-12-24-125.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 10:01:25 <_3b> francogrex: http://paste.lisp.org/+2NBF/1 ? 10:01:27 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:02:10 <_3b> oops, add NIL as default arg to those gethash calls 10:02:40 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.116.187] has joined #lisp 10:04:25 <_3b> though i guess it defaults to NIL anyway, so should still work 10:07:06 -!- ngz` [~user@104.236.75.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:08:34 _3b: yes it works fine 10:14:29 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:14:35 -!- martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:15:12 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:17:45 gkeith_lt [~gkeith@74-93-184-209-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 10:17:53 zfx [~zfx@mail.inqmobile.com] has joined #lisp 10:17:53 -!- zfx [~zfx@mail.inqmobile.com] has quit [Changing host] 10:17:53 zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 10:18:14 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-132-188-166.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:18:14 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-132-188-166.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 10:18:14 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:21:11 Yuuhi [benni@p5483B9CD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:23:13 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-xurexaknfqvsaaat] has joined #lisp 10:23:26 -!- taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:25:42 -!- Axioplase_ [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [Quit: bbl] 10:25:48 Is there a way to specify NaN in an SBCL float? 10:25:50 Guthur [~Guthur@e6219.upc-e.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 10:26:06 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-062-001.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:26:51 <_3b> jtza8: (sb-kernel:make-single-float #x-400000) or similar, depending on which NaN you want 10:27:11 Thanks 10:29:29 ngz` [~user@104.236.75.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 10:30:07 <_3b> might need to be careful how you use it though, older sbcl might not be able to compile it properly 10:31:51 clog [~nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 10:33:27 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.119.230] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:34:11 -!- MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:36:36 anthracite [~user@brln-4dbc6db8.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:36:40 -!- markskil1eck is now known as markskilbeck 10:36:52 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@host-92-12-24-125.as43234.net] has quit [Changing host] 10:36:52 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 10:44:34 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.56.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:45:21 -!- zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 10:48:41 -!- clog [~nef@bespin.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:50:11 Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 10:53:04 zfx [~zfx@mail.inqmobile.com] has joined #lisp 10:53:04 -!- zfx [~zfx@mail.inqmobile.com] has quit [Changing host] 10:53:04 zfx 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quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:36:18 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:37:10 -!- ocharles is now known as Gracenote_Rainbo 11:37:18 -!- Gracenote_Rainbo is now known as ocharles 11:37:38 -!- nicdev [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: nicdev] 11:38:19 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-190-236.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 11:44:08 -!- H4ns` is now known as H4ns 11:46:52 Evanescence [~chris@122.237.29.189] has joined #lisp 11:48:37 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@ip68-109-29-26.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 11:50:53 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-dgjvjqophdoruglz] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:54:15 -!- Kryztof [~user@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:54:57 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.167.153] has joined #lisp 12:00:38 -!- alfa_y_omega is now known as betta_y_omega 12:00:57 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA22786.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:01:07 does clos with amop offer a way to count the number of generic function calls? for profiling purposes? (on sbcl) 12:02:04 are there any interesting general lisp discussion lists? 12:02:42 -!- zfx- [~zfx@mail.inqmobile.com] has quit [Quit: Be back later] 12:02:44 ecraven: can't you just use a regular profiler? 12:03:10 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.167.153] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:03:22 probably, but i'm only interested in the number of generic function dispatches. i've never used a profiler in sbcl, is there an easy way to do this? 12:03:39 yes, you can use slime-sprof 12:04:02 zfx [~zfx@mail.inqmobile.com] has joined #lisp 12:04:03 -!- zfx [~zfx@mail.inqmobile.com] has quit [Changing host] 12:04:03 zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 12:05:11 -!- betta_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:06:52 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 12:06:53 -!- vert2 [~vert2@newshell1.bshellz.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:09:27 taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has joined #lisp 12:13:07 betta_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #lisp 12:14:31 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 12:14:50 jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-46-38.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:15:46 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 12:16:10 are there any interesting general lisp discussion lists? (for beginners) 12:16:11 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-54-189.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:16:42 no 12:16:57 urandom__ [~user@p548A4D08.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:17:09 leo2007 [~leo@th041140.ip.tsinghua.edu.cn] has joined #lisp 12:18:07 mstevens: but you can post your questions here, if you're not having us do your homework 12:18:26 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-062-001.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:19:05 mstevens: I see people post beginner stuff to comp.lang.lisp, lisp.reddit.com, and stackoverflow.com 12:19:17 there is a forum, too, though the name escapes me at the moment 12:19:18 ehu: I shall do so if they come up, but I was mainly after the educational effect of watching other people's discussions go by 12:19:27 duh, lispforum.com 12:20:09 -!- Eataix [~Eataix@CPE-121-223-185-148.lns2.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [] 12:21:52 the education will mostly not be about lisp, I'm afraid 12:22:20 I was also pondering the rather more direct step of rereading PCL 12:23:23 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-69.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:23:49 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:25:22 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-062-001.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:25:34 I found it informative to read lots of code. 12:25:42 -!- jingtao` [~jingtaozf@117.79.232.151] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:27:04 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.167.153] has joined #lisp 12:28:14 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-jdslvhwxyyonfxme] has joined #lisp 12:28:21 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:28:58 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 12:29:47 upwardindex [~upwardind@modemcable016.209-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 12:30:41 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-119-188.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:30:47 -!- upwardindex [~upwardind@modemcable016.209-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 12:31:21 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-062-001.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:32:01 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-119-188.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 12:41:54 setmeaway [setmeaway3@183.106.96.61] has joined #lisp 12:44:19 clog [~nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 12:48:09 -!- ngz` is now known as ngz 12:49:33 DelPuerto [~youguy@55.Red-217-125-255.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:54:06 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:55:22 yakov [~yakov@ip-83-149-3-162.nwgsm.ru] has joined #lisp 12:56:58 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 12:58:16 -!- betta_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:59:46 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-119-188.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:00:33 -!- Athas [~athas@0xbcb35cbe.cpe.ge-2-2-0-1104.glnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:00:55 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:01:06 betta_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #lisp 13:05:05 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755dba.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 13:05:56 dnolen_ [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 13:05:59 -!- dnolen_ [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Client Quit] 13:07:49 dnolen_ [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 13:08:05 zfx- [~zfx@mail.inqmobile.com] has joined #lisp 13:08:30 sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 13:08:54 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 13:09:58 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 13:10:17 -!- markskil1eck [~mark@host-92-12-25-13.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:11:06 -!- zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:13:13 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-076-182-089-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:13:19 yakov: hi, fancy joining #iolib? 13:13:42 hello hlavaty :) 13:13:47 nicdev [~user@static-72-74-85-37.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:13:52 hi fe[nl]ix 13:17:57 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:19:34 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 13:20:09 -!- DelPuerto [~youguy@55.Red-217-125-255.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:20:10 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.82.95.119] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 13:20:19 hi 13:20:44 is iolib the Lisp library to handle hardware io? 13:21:11 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:21:24 what do you mean by hardware IO? 13:21:41 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:21:59 peripherals like GPIO, serial ports, SPI, i2c and so on 13:22:09 iolib contains: contains: a socket library, a DNS resolver, an I/O multiplexer(which supports select(2), epoll(4) and kqueue(2)), a pathname library and file-system utilities 13:22:11 hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 13:22:21 ah ok 13:22:48 are there any high-precision timer libs for sbcl? (ie, finer than millisecond resolution, which is internal-time-units-per-second) 13:22:51 -!- ngz [~user@104.236.75.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:24:01 Phoodus: sb-ext:get-time-of-day 13:24:55 cool, thanks 13:27:36 -!- Siliconjesus [~Jeremy@host-8-174.ilcu3rd.clients.pavlovmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:29:42 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:31:49 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 13:35:05 waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-5d87f07f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:21 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 13:37:07 ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has joined #lisp 13:37:58 -!- Zhivago [~zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:40:27 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 13:40:32 -!- _8david [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:42:29 spradnyesh [~pradyus@117.192.34.77] has joined #lisp 13:44:23 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-58-167.lns3.dea.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:47:25 'morning 13:48:46 Hey there. 13:50:33 -!- zfx- [~zfx@mail.inqmobile.com] has quit [Quit: Be back later] 13:52:18 ugoubuntu [~ugoubuntu@175.191.1.84] has joined #lisp 13:52:40 *Xach* wonders how long parse-number's site has been down 13:53:19 fe[nl]ix: do you maintain parse-number now? 13:53:31 Xach: yes, split-sequence too 13:53:42 *Xach* updates quicklisp's upstream source 13:53:53 fe[nl]ix: where is the best place to get those two libraries? 13:54:01 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:54:45 Zach: during the process of updating ql, if it is interrupted, is there a way to resume? 13:55:00 Xach: http://common-lisp.net/~sionescu/files/ for the moment 13:55:21 leo2007: there is generally not a need to resume. the update is mostly for convenience. 13:55:37 fe[nl]ix: thanks. 13:56:18 fe[nl]ix: the cliki page for split-sequence doesn't reflect your maintainership as far as i can tell. 13:57:05 also, I don't see split-sequence in /files/? 13:57:14 Xach: last time I was updating the distribution on the plane right before it took off, and it was interrupted. After that, QL seemed to think every packages were update to date. 13:58:09 leo2007: Quicklisp will load things on demand. 13:58:36 realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:58:43 Xach: yeah, I noticed. But how to force it to update all of the installed packages. 13:59:12 Xach: Maybe the gitorious page? https://gitorious.org/common-lisp/split-sequence 13:59:48 Seems to have most of the Stelianware... 13:59:58 ngz [~user@209.141.80.79.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 14:00:20 leo2007: If the update was interrupted, there isn't a way to do that. They are no longer installed. 14:01:43 -!- dnolen_ [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen_] 14:02:09 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@117.192.34.77] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:04:30 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:05:17 jamie- [~jamie-@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 14:05:20 Xach: it appears I forgot to publish the release, I'll notice you when I'm done 14:05:21 hello 14:05:43 is it possible to force the caller to supply some values on make-instance? 14:06:26 agspathis [~user@ppp-94-64-149-52.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 14:06:29 jamie-: yes 14:06:38 jamie-: just do something like this: 14:06:40 how? 14:07:03 jamie-: (defclass foo () ((required :initarg :required :initform (error ":REQUIRED is required"))) 14:07:32 nice thank you 14:07:55 You can also do it in an initialize-instance or shared-initialize or in other ways. 14:08:04 or you can wrap make-instance in a function. 14:08:23 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 14:08:26 -!- sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:08:32 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-174-180.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:08:52 I definitely prefer MAKE-INSTANCE. It makes everything nice and consistent 14:09:05 -!- EyesIsMine [~eyes@unaffiliated/eyesismine] has quit [K-Lined] 14:09:31 sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 14:10:02 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:10:15 *loke* has ended up creating his own O/R-mapping for this application I'm building (yay for MOP :-) ). I wonder in how many other languages that would have been a viable option? 14:11:27 it's not viable until it's shipped. 14:11:44 pkhuong: what do you mean? 14:11:48 Kryztof [~user@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 14:15:01 -!- agspathis [~user@ppp-94-64-149-52.home.otenet.gr] has left #lisp 14:18:48 Zhivago [~zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 14:19:11 -!- yakov [~yakov@ip-83-149-3-162.nwgsm.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:19:25 loke: did you look at Relational Objects For Lisp? 14:19:39 zqwell [~kafergots@FL1-119-241-244-73.chb.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 14:20:08 Fade: Nope 14:20:23 Fade: you mean ROFL? 14:20:38 drew-ware. It's a nice mop-based relational mapper. 14:20:46 Fade: In my case, it was a bit special though. First of all: I had to build it on my own database API, as none of the existing ones were viable on ABCL 14:20:54 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:20:59 ahh 14:21:10 -!- __class__ [~class@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:21:10 -!- csdwifi [~csdwifi@76.177.215.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:21:13 it sounds like ABCL's CLOS/MOP has improved. :) 14:21:19 I needed something that could abstract access to Oracle on both SBCL and ABCL (using JDBC in the latter case) 14:21:59 Fade: does ROFL have a link? 14:22:05 -!- betta_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:22:06 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:22:17 Fade: it's not there yet. My API consists of two layers, the DB abstraction layer which works fine on ABCL. The persistence layer is the part that uses MOP, and it currently doesn't actually run on ABCL 14:22:19 it seems like a part of LoL? 14:22:27 (I found a pile of bugs that I reported to them :-) ) 14:22:41 felideon: Seems to be part of LoL, yes. 14:22:57 felideon: it has a LoL dependency, iirc 14:23:12 but it's not a part of LoL. 14:25:56 Siliconjesus [~Jeremy@henle2.scs.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 14:26:48 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:27:40 anyhow, I think it's linked from c-l.net 14:27:51 drewc recently moved a lot of his stuff to github. 14:28:20 betta_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #lisp 14:29:28 __class__ [~class@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:27 yakov [~yakov@ip-83-149-3-16.nwgsm.ru] has joined #lisp 14:33:37 -!- Evanescence [~chris@122.237.29.189] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 14:34:56 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 14:35:03 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-243-184.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 14:35:14 stassats: news:comp.lang.lisp is a general lisp discussion list! 14:35:36 it's not a list, it's a newsgroup 14:35:40 pjb: It's also extremely painful. :-) 14:35:46 It's a newbie, he doesn't know the difference. 14:35:53 There are some terribly annoying trolls there 14:36:03 loke: it's painful only because you don't redirect newbies with true lisp interest to it! 14:36:25 so that it becomes even worse? 14:36:25 If there was more people contributing real lisp questions, the trolls would recede. 14:36:49 I think if I did that, they would possibly lose that interest before they realise they have it... 14:36:57 -!- Zhivago [~zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:37:00 at least there isn't any more harrop 14:37:04 And yes, I'm particularly thinking of WJ's posts 14:37:18 stassats: what makes it bad, is the removal of honest list discussion. For example, I don't like the creation of cl-pro. I'd rather have the lisp pro discuss lisp on news:comp.lang.lisp for the benefit of all. 14:37:38 what's cl-pro? 14:37:39 If each subgroup goes out of news:comp.lang.lisp, then it's not surprising that only trolls remain. 14:37:45 weirdo: never mind. 14:37:50 yakov: I briefly looked at clws. There's no make-socket-pair on windows so 14:37:50 you'd have to simulate that in iolib or maybe better rewrite 14:37:50 clws::run-server to use iocp backend. Also the event-base iolib api 14:37:50 needs rethinking a bit and wrapping around iocp. 14:38:25 pjb: who can join cl-pro? 14:38:31 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 14:38:34 ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:38:34 The professionnal users of CL. 14:38:36 <_3b> hlavaty: what's "iocp"? 14:38:53 serious business, i suppose 14:38:56 Yes. 14:38:57 _3b: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa365198%28v=vs.85%29.aspx 14:39:30 Upwards from ITA, I suppose 14:41:18 hlavaty, thanks. 14:41:24 i'll take a look 14:41:28 <_3b> hlavaty: ok, so windows specific stuff 14:41:43 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-144-222.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 14:41:55 yakov: you're welcome, _3b: yes 14:42:42 <_3b> is there enough of iolib on windows to try to use it yet? (not that i'm set up to do anything on windows at the moment) 14:42:54 not yet 14:43:42 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 14:45:06 -!- Joreji [~thomas@83-096.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:45:22 markskil1eck [~mark@host-92-12-18-107.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 14:45:25 -!- jamie- [~jamie-@76.73.16.26] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)] 14:46:33 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:48:27 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:49:12 zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 14:49:57 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:50:53 EyeWare [~eyes@host86-166-147-188.range86-166.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:53:51 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-jdslvhwxyyonfxme] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:56:42 -!- ugoubuntu [~ugoubuntu@175.191.1.84] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:01:19 csdwifi [~csdwifi@76.177.215.56] has joined #lisp 15:03:24 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 15:04:00 -!- zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 15:06:17 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-19-65.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:06:38 kiuma_ [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 15:06:44 spearalot [~spearalot@c83-248-137-60.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 15:06:48 -!- EyeWare [~eyes@host86-166-147-188.range86-166.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:07:41 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:08:41 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-45-114.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:08:48 -!- kiuma_ [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Client Quit] 15:08:55 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-181-173.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Offline] 15:09:50 -!- markskil1eck [~mark@host-92-12-18-107.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:14:10 -!- trigen [c1aca602@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.172.166.2] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:15:09 HG` [~HG@p5DC056BB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:20:14 hmm, speaking of mcclim, clim-listener stopped building for me just now. 15:20:23 "There is no class named CLIM-LISTENER::TEXT/X-LISP-SYSTEM." 15:20:33 *Xach* wonders whether his system configuration changed, or mcclim changed 15:23:34 -!- yakov [~yakov@ip-83-149-3-16.nwgsm.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:24:58 yakov [~yakov@ip-83-149-3-229.nwgsm.ru] has joined #lisp 15:26:36 Daev [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:30:06 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 15:32:32 -!- _Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:34:54 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.167.153] has left #lisp 15:37:51 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:40:18 Joreji [~thomas@83-096.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:40:50 rolando [~user@169.166.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 15:44:42 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 15:45:00 jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.56] has joined #lisp 15:48:38 aha 15:51:05 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 15:51:51 the new asdf seems to trigger the problem. anyone around care to help me test? 15:54:51 -!- HG` [~HG@p5DC056BB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:55:02 erk [~MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has joined #lisp 15:55:50 Xach: what do you need? 15:56:11 I'm still a newbie, so I'm not sure how much I can help 15:56:35 Do you have sbcl and quicklisp? 15:56:41 yup 15:56:51 sbcl 1.0.50 15:57:50 can you fetch http://xach.com/tmp/asdf.lisp 15:58:16 using quicklisp? or just wget? 15:58:47 kpreid [~kpreid@216.239.45.16] has joined #lisp 15:58:55 Just wget. 15:59:00 ok, done 15:59:48 then try this: sbcl --disable-debugger --no-userinit --load asdf.lisp --load /home/xach/quicklisp/setup.lisp --eval '(ql:quickload :clim-listener)' --eval '(sb-ext:quit)' 15:59:52 err 16:00:02 that should be ~/quicklisp/setup.lisp, not /home/xach...sorry. 16:00:10 ok 16:00:13 jdz [~jdz@host67-17-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:00:20 sbcl --disable-debugger --no-userinit --load asdf.lisp --load ~/quicklisp/setup.lisp --eval '(ql:quickload :clim-listener)' --eval '(sb-ext:quit)' should be k&y-able. 16:00:21 -!- erk [~MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:01:37 do you want the traceback that results? 16:02:02 Zhivago [~zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 16:02:09 No, just want to know if it errors, and if it does, what sbcl version you use. 16:02:10 derrida [~derrida-f@unaffiliated/deleuze] has joined #lisp 16:02:18 it does. 1.0.50 16:02:38 http://paste.lisp.org/display/123542 has my local traceback. probably similar to yours. 16:03:00 erk [~MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has joined #lisp 16:03:34 ah, sec 16:03:43 I made a typo transcribing the command. 16:03:52 mine's still compiling 16:04:04 yeah, it errors. 16:04:27 Fade has a very fast computer 16:04:38 *Fade* just built a new workstation. 16:04:39 :) 16:04:45 this traceback is really huge. 16:05:05 There is no class named CLIM-LISTENER::TEXT/X-LISP-SYSTEM. 16:05:10 yup, it also throws an error here 16:05:31 It looks like it might not be loading file-types properly, or something. 16:06:17 frame 24 is a bunch of ASDF stuff... well, a couple hundred lines of it. 16:06:24 dammit, the traceback was too large for screen 16:06:30 I can't reach the error message 16:06:42 rolando: no problem, thanks for trying it. 16:06:56 let's pipe it to tee and see what happens 16:07:22 anyhow, my traceback is basically identical to yours. 16:07:23 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 16:07:37 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 16:07:42 *Xach* alerts asdf-devel, wonders what will come of it 16:08:12 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-104-117.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:27 "There is no class named CLIM-LISTENER::TEXT/X-LISP-SYSTEM." <-- same here 16:08:36 -!- erk [~MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:10:15 erk [~MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has joined #lisp 16:10:33 hmm, does *not* fail with clozure cl 16:10:43 *Xach* scratches head 16:12:30 I'm trying with clisp 16:13:36 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:14:17 yeah, same here. 16:15:27 -!- erk [~MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:15:41 i have an amd64 system /w CCL "Version 1.7-dev-r14901M-trunk (LinuxX8664)" 16:15:43 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:17:29 erk [~MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has joined #lisp 16:17:36 mstevens [~mstevens@ceres.etla.org] has joined #lisp 16:17:36 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@ceres.etla.org] has quit [Changing host] 16:17:36 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 16:18:40 -!- chp [~chp@76.191.104.101] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:19:30 symbole [~user@ool-4a5a4bdd.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:24 Xach: it also doesn't fail in clisp 2.49 16:22:07 Thanks for trying it. 16:22:12 *Xach* wonders what on earth is up 16:22:25 the other lisp I have is abcl 16:22:34 and I'm not even sure if quicklisp supports it 16:22:40 Sure it does. 16:22:46 SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@VEROXITY.ipcolo1.SanFrancisco1.Level3.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:50 CLX and McCLIM, possibly not. 16:22:59 yeah 16:23:20 Xach: can't imagine, but it would be a nice experiment :-) 16:23:28 strange that something works in clisp, but not in sbcl 16:23:33 -!- erk [~MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:23:38 from my experience it's usually the other way around 16:24:08 sbcl or abcl? 16:24:19 both exist 16:24:55 erk [~MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has joined #lisp 16:24:57 -!- erk [~MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has quit [K-Lined] 16:25:02 ehu: the clim-listener thing seems to fail only in sbcl 16:25:14 and only with the very latest asdf.lisp from git 16:25:47 I guess bisect the asdf changes? :/ 16:26:07 fun for the whole family 16:26:19 <_3b> looks like a broken .asd file, which just happened to not break obviously yet :/ 16:26:31 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 16:26:34 broken how so? 16:26:55 <_3b> (:file "asdf" :depends-on ("package")), class in question defined in "file-types" 16:27:23 ah, yes. clear as day. 16:27:34 *Xach* looks around for mcclim committers 16:28:28 yeah, abcl crashes when loading mcclim.asd 16:28:30 not much help there... 16:28:35 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 16:28:58 -!- zqwell [~kafergots@FL1-119-241-244-73.chb.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:29:03 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 16:29:39 I've found that in practice abcl doesn't load quite a bit of the stuff in quicklisp. 16:30:20 -!- gkeith_lt [~gkeith@74-93-184-209-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:30:38 EyeWare [~eyes@unaffiliated/eyesismine] has joined #lisp 16:30:55 fade: we're working on that. 16:31:02 anything that depends on bordeaux-threads seems to fail, at least as of a few weeks ago. 16:31:10 ehu: excellent :) 16:31:34 *rolando* wonders when the owner of css-lite will check its github page 16:33:08 -!- EyeWare is now known as EyesIsMine 16:33:46 akahl [~e-user@nat/nokia/x-uvpufelegfsjuwab] has joined #lisp 16:35:29 akahl_ [~e-user@nat/nokia/x-uofjkelczccgqokx] has joined #lisp 16:36:23 -!- akahl [~e-user@nat/nokia/x-uvpufelegfsjuwab] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:36:36 Fade: that's my fault, I need to make a new release 16:36:38 akahl [~e-user@nat/nokia/x-ceadkvvmilkttngf] has joined #lisp 16:36:48 -!- Zhivago [~zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:37:51 -!- e-user [~e-user@nat/nokia/x-jzdmuhohkaiyjhpt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:39:09 -!- yakov [~yakov@ip-83-149-3-229.nwgsm.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:39:49 one question 16:40:03 -!- akahl [~e-user@nat/nokia/x-ceadkvvmilkttngf] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:40:27 -!- akahl_ [~e-user@nat/nokia/x-uofjkelczccgqokx] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:40:45 is there a reason {Common\ ,}Lisp doesn't implement functions returning multiple values similarly as Python does? 16:40:49 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:41:02 Iceland_jack: how does python do it? 16:41:14 madnificent: well or rather assigning them like Python does 16:41:16 Iceland_jack: We have values and multiple-value-bind. What is your objection? 16:41:19 yes 16:41:20 tuples IIRC 16:41:23 yes 16:41:32 a, b, c = ('foo', 'bar', 'baz') 16:41:42 redline6561: I was thinking of something akin to Python's: a, b, c = function() 16:41:50 <_3b> (setf (values a b c) (values 'foo 'bar 'baz))? 16:41:51 (setq (a, b, c) (function)) 16:41:54 that seems similar enough to multiple-value-bind to me. 16:41:59 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-243-184.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 16:42:14 Bike +1 16:42:17 Bike: why couldn't it use setf for it? 16:42:25 <_3b> Iceland_jack: you can 16:42:28 You can, see _3b. 16:42:39 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:42:44 oh interesting 16:42:48 <_3b> assigment and binding are completely different things though 16:42:49 gkeith_lt [~gkeith@216.239.45.130] has joined #lisp 16:43:09 <_3b> (setf values) modifies existing bindings, multiple-value-bind creates new bindings 16:43:29 _3b: right, that isn't quite what I had in mind 16:43:32 multiple-value-setq modifies existing bindings too. 16:43:43 hm 16:43:51 setq <-> multiple-value-setq / let <-> multiple-value-bind 16:43:51 *_3b* always forgets about m-v-setq 16:44:00 zfx [~zfx@host86-145-64-98.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 16:44:00 -!- zfx [~zfx@host86-145-64-98.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 16:44:00 zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 16:44:12 pjb: right, but the Python way of doing this is very intuitive 16:44:27 <_3b> (setf values) seems reasonably intuitive 16:44:27 Well, (setf (values (car x) (aref y z)) ...) should work; multiple-value-setq only accepts variables (and symbol-macro IIRC). 16:44:30 while you have to remember all the different multiple-value-* functions in Python 16:44:30 i think it comes down to scoping differences. 16:45:13 python just does it implicitly, where lisp explicitly calls out destructuring assignment. 16:45:26 _3b: I'm thinking of something like (setf (a b) (value 4 5)) 16:45:29 *values 16:45:49 <_3b> how would you distinguish that from a call to a function named A? 16:46:13 _3b: good question 16:46:28 there's syntactic support for that kind of thing in loop 16:46:31 Iceland_jack: so, you want something similar to multiple-value-bind ? 16:47:02 <_3b> LOOP only destructures, no explicit support for multiple-values in the spec :( 16:47:03 Or multiple-value-setq. 16:47:05 madnificent: yes, my only problem is that it's an extra function to learn 16:47:09 does the issue boil down to seeing something different than what the others do? 16:47:31 <_3b> (some LOOP implementations extend it for VALUES support, or optimize away destructuring of multiple-value-list though) 16:47:34 Iceland_jack: the same thing would be so with the setf-trick... and with a,b,c = foo(); you need to know you can do that... 16:47:52 ahahaha, so you can define classes with a keyword as a name 16:47:56 madnificent: yes, but you use the same operator for assignment; it's uniform 16:48:06 that is pretty sick 16:48:07 The first time I tried multiple value returns in Python, I tried it as an array, like [a,b] = foo(). What's intuitive for some is less so for others. 16:48:54 Bike: I didn't say intuitive, I'm rather concerned with uniformity 16:49:20 "There's no doubt about it. Common Lisp is a large language." -- Guy L. Steele. 16:49:30 Well, like _3b said, there's no way you could make the (setf vars values) syntax work, because that's not how setf is generalized. 16:49:33 tgrr [~tgrr@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 16:49:35 Iceland_jack: that /could/ be true. it's at least hard to argue about it. i personally prefer to have something i understand in the long run. not that i would particularly mind something different to m-v-b. i guess i don't see an immediate gain. you're free to implement something better though. 16:50:34 OliverUv [~gandhi@195.159.235.178] has joined #lisp 16:50:38 <_3b> yeah, lisp has lots of historical inconsistencies, not much we can do about that at this point and still use CL :/ 16:50:52 madnificent: Arc and Clojure have done good things in making Lisp feel a little more understandable imo, but Common Lisp (even though I love it) is very confusing for beginners 16:51:00 do you use aref, elt, nth.. 16:51:11 Iceland_jack there's a downside to python's way. you have to fetch all values or none. with lisp you can take just one, and discard the rest 16:51:14 <_3b> feel free to try clojure or other recent lisps, and complain to them if they failed to fix that sort of thing :) 16:51:22 _3b: complain I will 16:51:37 hello 16:51:46 Iceland_jack: i do like m-v-b's execution of code within the set of variables which have just been assigned. it limits the amount of variables i need to look at to understand a particular piece of code. i'd be dreaded at seeing two statements like a,b,c = foo(); codeBeHere(); b,c = bar(); codeBeHere(); 16:52:09 Iceland_jack: understandability is a subjective concept 16:52:12 the only issue I have with mvb is verbosity, but that's easily fixed 16:52:20 stassats: Oh, surely 16:52:38 but there are focal points of understandability 16:53:09 _3b: nothing prevents you to define your own lisp package exporting hash-get alist-get and array-get instead of gethash aref and assoc. 16:53:34 <_3b> pjb: right, CL is great for implementing other languages :) 16:53:46 and embedded DSLs. 16:53:56 -!- Penten``` [~user@114.255.149.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:54:10 The topic of a Lisp dialect becoming a prevalent language in the future has been on my mind for some time now 16:54:18 *_3b* wonders if you would add a default value for out-of-bounds array access when regularizing that set of operations 16:54:48 -!- betta_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:55:02 can someone explain the difference between (defmacro macro (arg) (foo arg)) and (defmacro macro (arg `(foo arg)) 16:55:18 The first is syntactically correct, not the later. 16:55:26 -!- fourier [~user@213.141.149.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:55:26 -!- ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 16:55:33 sorry (defmacro macro (arg) `(foo arg)) 16:55:36 Just as a quick question, could a Lisp language implement something similar to Python's: list[4]? 16:55:53 The first calls foo at macro expansion time, on the argument passed to the macro. 16:56:03 The later calls foo at run-time on an undefined variable named arg. 16:56:07 Iceland_jack: nth, elt 16:56:08 <_3b> tgrr: ` is just a shortcut for building lists, so `(foo arg) is similar to (list 'foo 'arg) 16:56:10 -!- ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has left #lisp 16:56:11 syntactically similar: (list 1 2 3)[0]  1 16:56:24 you cannot be serious! 16:56:29 stassats: Surely, I am 16:56:29 Iceland_jack: bracket notation for arrays, you mean? You could use nth/elt, or make a reader macro like [(list 1 2 3) 2] => 3. 16:56:34 You could use `(foo ',arg) to call at run-time foo on the arguments passed to the macro. 16:56:42 betta_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #lisp 16:57:02 The foo called at macro expansion time must return a FORM (lisp code). The foo called at run-time can return anything the program expects. 16:57:13 Iceland_jack: have you seen practical common lisp? 16:57:14 Iceland_jack: that wouldn't be Lisp 16:57:20 minion: here? 16:57:41 stassats: :) 16:57:44 tgrr: read http://www.lisperati.com/casting.html 16:57:57 -!- Younder [~john@86.157.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 16:58:32 ok thank you 16:59:40 That would ruin the idiosyncracy of it 16:59:47 What would? 16:59:59 using (list 1 2 3)[2] 17:00:09 Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-210-180.w2-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:00:41 if you want python, you know where to find it 17:00:49 stassats: Right, did I say I wanted Python? 17:01:14 Iceland_jack: it's pretty unclear what you want. :) 17:01:18 did i say that you said that you wanted python? 17:01:24 stassats: you insinuated it 17:01:31 Fade: I want to ponder :) 17:01:44 lisp is very different from python, for good reasons. 17:02:05 when I first came to lisp from python, I had to change a lot of my assumptions. 17:02:27 Zhivago [~zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 17:02:50 you can teach a new developer everything there is to know about lisp syntax in about five minutes. 17:03:13 Fade: that's right 17:03:21 Iceland_jack: do that and i might have to come round and kill you before the world turns in to an absolute hell. i'm even more serious when i tell you that the s-exp syntax is something to embrace (even if you can work around it in CL). get that fugly syntax out of your head before it kills you 17:03:22 in Python, the syntax grows seemingly without bound. 17:03:35 Oh, nonsense. 17:03:37 *Fade* shrugs 17:03:43 Fade: that's not actually true about Common Lisp 17:04:09 madnificent: OK 17:04:11 okay, maybe 15 if you include the backquote stuff. 17:04:17 stassats: yeah, but we don't talk about the fancy stuff to newcomers, they'd want to use it and destroy the language :) 17:04:22 So, what does (a b c) mean? 17:04:37 Iceland_jack: kennyd_ up there gave you the real answer about why Common Lisp doesn't do multiple values like Python: because the Common Lisp way is not a kludge. 17:04:40 -!- Joreji [~thomas@83-096.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:04:48 Zhivago: with a standard readtable? 17:04:59 stassats: If you like. 17:05:13 you're drawing a nuance I'm not reading. 17:05:15 evaluating or not? 17:05:25 Can't you tell? :) 17:05:30 Is making the syntax understandable in 5 minutes the ultimate goal? 17:05:31 i can't! 17:05:45 CL has a superficially regular syntax, but it has a completely context dependent grammar. 17:06:09 Which needs to be rememebered for every ad hoc operator in play. 17:06:30 Iceland_jack: No. CL's goal was "unify the fuck outta those dialects", going mainly after practical use than academic qualities 17:06:48 (push 1 list) (loop for i from 1 to 20 print i) (defun blah (x) (+ x 1)) 17:06:53 fortunately, there are some conventions which help 17:07:03 Thinking that that's somehow simple and regular is delusional. 17:07:42 but it's simple once you know it! 17:07:53 No, it really isn't. 17:07:59 Iceland_jack: obviously i'm kidding to some extent. however, if you're going to make an extension of the syntax (which you can), you'll want to do it for features which make sense for the application you're building. which is most likely not going to be something for manipulating arrays. 17:07:59 -!- jdz [~jdz@host67-17-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:08:11 Zhivago: then you should stop reading brain-damaged code 17:08:14 madnificent: That's true 17:08:25 We're talking about the CL standard here. :) 17:08:44 Anyhow, I don't think that's an argument that CL can realistically win, even against python. 17:08:46 I'm not trying to ruin any existing dialects or saying that this is a better (or even a good) solution 17:08:52 Zhivago: it's small, you can remember all the rules 17:09:02 stassats: What's the rule for push? 17:09:22 Zhivago: That was quite lucid. I'll have to try and remember that. Thanks =) 17:09:25 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:09:29 I'm just questioning the present syntax, that's all right 17:09:43 (setf list (cons 1 list)) evaluating list once 17:09:52 and evaluating 1 before list 17:10:05 stassats: No. That's not the rule for the syntax of push. 17:10:15 barryfm [~barryfm@fl-71-2-133-215.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:41 we seem to be conflating function contracts and syntax. 17:10:56 Fade: semantics 17:11:10 Iceland_jack: what i mostly want to say is: embrace the syntax, but remember how the syntax was in other languages. then later on decide which features you want back from those other languages. s-exps take some time to get used to, but they really grow on you. it is -- imho -- one of the most expressive ways of programming. the question makes sense (though socially you need to warn people before things get out of hand :) ) 17:11:33 iceland: Just remember that intuition is a learned skill. 17:11:36 madnificent: Yes you're right (also, don't murder me) 17:11:52 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:11:57 iceland: Yes, CL has some complex syntax, and it's weird and unusual, but it's not that bad. 17:12:29 Zhivago: I wasn't exclusively talking about Common Lisp 17:13:03 iceland: Perhaps I misssed the core of your argument. 17:13:15 carlocci [~nes@93.37.211.155] has joined #lisp 17:13:19 Iceland_jack: i'll try to remember not to kill you ^_^ 17:13:30 madnificent: Do remember to remember that 17:13:42 -!- gkeith_lt [~gkeith@216.239.45.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:13:56 *madnificent* creates a post-it note "don't kill Iceland_jack" 17:16:07 -!- anthracite [~user@brln-4dbc6db8.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:16:28 -!- easyE [JYjYZhkLaA@panix2.panix.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:16:39 easyE [RcG9Mmrgtz@panix2.panix.com] has joined #lisp 17:16:50 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:17:24 Zhivago: I don't have an argument as it were, there is no such thing as perfect syntax and I wanted to think about that; maybe S-expressions are as close as we can get (hardly though) but I enjoy questioning the norm (I do realize my question was regarding something sacrosanct, like asking Christians to replace the cross with a bowl of custard) 17:18:20 iceland: Personally, I think that s-exps are reasonably close to the punctuation of a natural language. 17:18:26 iceland: Are you familiar with Fortress? 17:18:32 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 17:18:44 I am now 17:18:49 what of it? 17:19:15 The fortran? 17:19:25 It's probably the most syntactically ambigious of the serious languages at the moment. 17:19:34 er, ambitious. 17:19:40 Hm, how so? 17:20:09 It uses fonts syntactically. 17:20:43 It looks interesting... 17:21:05 was it two-dimensional? 17:21:20 antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-1177894329.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 17:23:42 although I don't believe trying to use mathematical notation in programming languages is such a hot idea 17:24:10 Might be for scientists, engineers and mathematicians. 17:24:13 True 17:24:20 But, why? 17:24:39 but why is #', ' and ` OK in Lisp? 17:25:07 you can choose not to use them, and just go with (function ...), (quote ...), and build stuff up with list/cons 17:25:08 In my opinion, it all boils down to an approximation of MDL. 17:25:13 Iceland_jack: they're abbreviations (: 17:25:31 very simple ones. 17:25:33 CL uses a lot of magic syntax if you look at it with an honest eye. 17:25:37 antifuchs: what's wrong with list[1:3] being an abbreviation for (subseq list 1 3)? 17:25:52 It's actually quite hard to write a parser for CL lexemes. 17:25:53 Iceland_jack: indeed. slippery slope (: 17:25:58 antifuchs: right.. 17:26:35 Numbers and symbols are generally ambiguous. 17:26:35 -!- tgrr [~tgrr@76.73.16.26] has left #lisp 17:26:40 I suppose if no Lisp dialiect had abbreviations, you would have hanged me for suggesting something like #'? 17:26:48 tgrr [~tgrr@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 17:26:51 oh, dear; the great syntax war is on again? 17:27:00 People find ways to make frequent lexemes short. 17:27:07 Please don't act like you're a martyr; it's disingenuous. 17:27:11 Iceland_jack: I hope noboby will murder you for any suggestions you make 17:27:15 You'll find that throughout all human languages. 17:27:27 Which brings me back to MDL. 17:27:30 Iceland_jack: the good thing about lisp is that you can extend it to be more like the thing you want it to be 17:27:44 Bike: It was tongue-in-cheek 17:27:46 The bad thing about lisp is that other people can also do that. 17:27:55 Iceland_jack: so go ahead and do it - but if it becomes too unrecognizable, then people will refuse to look at your code (: 17:28:00 Joreji [~thomas@83-096.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:28:12 Iceland: Do you know about Minimum Description Length? 17:28:18 Zhivago: the "hell is other programmers" argument (: 17:28:24 Zhivago: no 17:28:42 Iceland: It's fundamental to language. 17:28:45 why does subseq get an abbreviation and nothing else? 17:28:56 I rarely ever use that operator in lisp 17:29:12 so if you're going to add syntax, point it at something common 17:29:23 Phoodus: I used it as an example :) 17:29:38 well, why did you pick it as an example? 17:29:53 Iceland: I suggest reading up on it and perhaps how people use MDL for things like morpheme inference. 17:30:05 Zhivago: Thank you, I will 17:30:08 it's not common, and it consumes precious ASCII space 17:30:10 Iceland: It may give you a more simple and robust basis for thinking about syntax. 17:30:11 gkeith_lt [~gkeith@74-93-184-209-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:11 Phoodus: You're really missing my main point 17:32:04 Zhivago: Any specific recommendations for what to read? 17:32:47 Iceland_jack: which is 17:33:00 (and yes, I'm not sure I caught the beginning of this) 17:33:21 Phoodus: I was not thinking man subseq is such an important function, it needs a special syntax 17:33:31 Bike: Surprisingly, the wikipedia page seems quite good. 17:33:37 Phoodus: subseq is already abbreviated, it should be subsequence 17:33:47 Yeah, I found a link to mdl-research.org, it's got a lot of stuff. 17:33:55 stassats: as opposed to concatenate ;) 17:34:15 http://www.cis.hut.fi/projects/morpho/ <- this is a practical application that might make more sense. 17:34:23 Though I'm not really sure I understand the basis, unless it's just a "more computable" Kolmogorov complexity. 17:34:32 No. 17:34:35 Oh, thanks. 17:34:40 And yeah, that seemed unlikely. 17:35:35 Human communication has two basic opposing forces -- the cost of expression, and the cost of error. 17:36:51 You can include the cost of memory into that. 17:37:50 So there's a balance between concision and redundancy, that produces largely regular structures. 17:37:57 Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 17:38:21 You're familiar with Zipf's Law, right? 17:38:40 -!- tgrr [~tgrr@76.73.16.26] has left #lisp 17:39:14 Yeah. 17:39:29 You can see that as an expression of an MDL process in language. 17:39:52 The same applies to programming languages, imho. 17:40:59 You have highly regular structure for the less frequent expressions that require greater redundancy, and irregular structure for high frequency expressions that are expected to be internalized -- e.g., x++ vs. increment(&x) 17:41:09 Larry Wall mentions that explicitly in one of his talks (one of the state of the onions IIRC), that he tries to make common operations compact 17:41:14 or #'foo vs. (symbol-function 'foo) 17:41:40 Calls if huffmanizing 17:41:42 Although those don't always mean the same thing, so ... 17:42:13 (function foo) would mean the same 17:42:16 Unfortunately he didn't extend it to the morphological level. 17:42:44 Yeah, but I wanted (symbol-function 'foo) since it is a rare and incompressible expression in CL. 17:43:00 Hm... so maybe C-likes use the array[index] notation a lot since C dealt/deals with sequentially stored memory so much. 17:43:06 Ok. 17:43:08 (function (lambda ...)) vs (lambda ...) then? 17:43:19 I don't suppose anybody's actually applied linguistics techniques to programming corpora. 17:43:24 Zhivago: Not sure I see what you mean by the morphological level 17:43:28 Actually, people have, iirc. 17:43:54 arnshold: Well, consider the morphemes open and un- and -ed and -able. 17:44:03 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 17:44:13 arnshold: Given those we should be able to produce the lexemes openable, opened, unopenable and so on. 17:44:38 unopenabled? 17:45:00 -able has no trailing '-' 17:45:09 Yah. Which operations would those derivations correspond to? 17:45:19 "unopenable" is an adjective, adding an "ed" for past tense of verbs is nonsensical, isn't it? 17:45:35 Well, they'd correspond to a protocol. 17:45:50 unopenable v.: make something unopenable 17:45:58 But you'd be able to reason about the meaning of unopened simply by knowing about open. 17:46:14 Right, so something like role composition. That makes sense 17:46:20 English is not such a good language for this kind of thing. :) 17:46:57 So far I haven't seen anyone attempt to tackle morphology in programming languages, apart from simple things like $foo and @foo and so on. 17:47:46 Well, there's Damian Conway's Lingua::Romana::Perligata, but that doesn't really count (being a wrapper around the sigil thing) 17:47:52 in the precision of a programming language, wouldn't you just end up with a concatenation of well-defined, well-ordered terms instead of an actually morphologically changed element? 17:47:55 I've been playing with finding productive morphemes for naming -- like emit, admit, remit, transmit, and so on. 17:48:10 Well, CL has (setf ...) 17:48:26 stassats: "I unopenable the box."? 17:48:26 does commit fit? 17:49:05 stassats: Yes -- it means to put something together. 17:50:04 Those are all derived from mitto though, with various prefixes 17:50:57 Sure -- it's a productive morpheme. 17:51:04 arnsholt: i thought that was the point 17:51:07 ISF [~ivan@187.106.54.41] has joined #lisp 17:51:38 Things like insert and uninsert rather than insert and remove. 17:51:55 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:52:07 and inserted and insertable and so on. 17:52:11 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-210-180.w2-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:53:03 Then perhaps you could generalize to say if (X-ed y) (un-X y). 17:55:31 basically an operation equivalent of defstruct's automatic offering of *-p, make-*, copy-*, etc? 17:56:36 Something like that, but reversible. 17:56:56 right 17:57:46 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:58:01 still, I don't really see all that much distinction between actually affecting the name, and (if (happened (insert x here)) (revert (insert x here))) 17:58:36 Zhivago: Thanks for reminding me of Morpho BTW. I really should play more with that 17:58:46 I think that natural languages are naturally quite good. 17:58:57 ok 17:59:00 And they have a morphological structure for good reason. 17:59:11 tgrr [~tgrr@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 17:59:30 Presumably for concision and simplification of other rules. 17:59:40 programming langauges tend to snap the expressivity/ambiguity tradeoff over to the "any ambiguity is death" end of things :) 17:59:45 does lisp have a concept of static class variable? or would one use specials for that 17:59:48 at least, "legacy" languages do 18:00:10 I think that lisps, in general, are not well designed. 18:00:20 tgrr: yes and yes. 18:00:22 meaning a field that's shared by all the instances of a class 18:00:29 And that is their strength -- they tend to be a collection of expedient hacks. 18:00:36 Xach can you elaborate 18:00:51 -!- gkeith_lt [~gkeith@74-93-184-209-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:00:53 tgrr: you can create a shared slot 18:00:56 clhs defclass 18:00:56 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defcla.htm 18:00:56 tgrr: you can add the :allocation option to a slot to make it allocated in the class. 18:01:00 tgrr: if that's what you mean 18:01:04 Zhivago: Like natural language is? Is that what you mean? 18:01:05 yes 18:01:06 The superficial regularity of the language blurs the distinction between the levels of the language, and that helps with acceptance into the core. 18:01:10 Bike: Yes. 18:01:11 Zhivago: yep, things like the lack of expressing an array literal with evaluated elements really gets me oten 18:01:12 often 18:01:13 tgrr: but instead of using that, it's usually better to use a special variable. 18:01:36 I can see that. It's not like conlangs ever take off... 18:01:47 What is a conlang? 18:01:56 concatenative? 18:01:56 A constructed language, like Esperanto or lojban. 18:02:02 oh 18:02:07 Language for human communication, that is, not programming. 18:02:17 Well, there's not much reason for them to do so -- the best in that area that I've seen is Interlingua. 18:02:31 I tried learning lojban for a bit. Positional terms in spoken language is awfully unfamiliar 18:02:57 The nice thing about Interlingua is that you can already read it. 18:03:18 so when would one prefer shared slot value over a special? 18:03:33 tgrr: specials tend to be useful for context. 18:04:07 tgrr: I don't know. I've never used a shared slot, and haven't noticed anyone else doing it either. It would be interesting to find software that used it, and find out why it was used. 18:04:32 Hopefully the reason is better than "That's how I would do it in ." 18:04:38 i guess if that slot differed between various classes you'd have a reason to prefer it over a special? 18:05:28 are you talking about different classes inheriting the same slot, but having different values per derived class? 18:05:46 yeah 18:06:02 that just sounds like a normal slot to me 18:06:17 but you'd have one slot for all the instances of each class 18:06:19 it wouldn't be static in other languages for that usage, afaict 18:06:33 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:07:01 Xach: qooxlisp uses class-allocated slots, and I think it makes sense in this case. 18:07:08 Useful foor things like caches. 18:07:16 *stassats* finds his code where class allocation is used 18:07:29 tgrr: sounds like you should just use a generic function that dispatches on the type, and doesn't bother with object identity/contents beyond that 18:07:51 Xach: Basically, qooxlisp creates lisp classes that correspond to qooxdoo classes. The name of the qooxdoo class (which is instantiated when a new instance of the CL class is instantiated) is stored in a class-allocated slot. 18:08:52 i used it for a GUI class for a search form, case-sensitivity option, so that it's preserved between different invocations of that window 18:09:13 poindontcare [~user@cloudbovina.bovinasancta.com] has joined #lisp 18:09:35 a special variable would work too, but i remember that it was an ordinary class initially, and i changed :allocation to :class without modifying any other behaviour 18:09:46 s/ordinary class/ordinary slot/ 18:10:55 sykopomp: seems like a custom metaclass would fit better 18:11:35 stassats: I'm not sure what the advantage there would be. 18:12:31 HG` [~HG@p5DC056BB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:42 you would be able to access it through the class, not through the instances of the class 18:13:04 that does seem like a reasonable alternative, yeah. 18:13:22 and you could instantiate your voodoo class upon finalization of your class, without checking each time upon instantiating it 18:21:00 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:21:28 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-064-177-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:22:15 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Quit: Changing server] 18:29:12 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 18:30:58 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755dba.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:31:17 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-064-177-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:34:13 Hello Dragons! 18:34:24 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:34:45 Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-210-180.w2-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:34:51 zort- [~user@bas1-toronto07-1176122518.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 18:35:23 Anyone know what the upperbounds is on SBCL's x86-32 for bignums. Specifically, is it possible for a bignum to have a type signature which extends beyond (unsigned-byte #.most-positive-fixnum) 18:35:24 What's the least dead Emacs written in Common Lisp? Hemlock? 18:35:35 zort-: Emacs 18:35:53 zort-: climacs? 18:36:03 climacs looks pretty dead 18:36:06 mon_key: eh? 18:36:21 Emacs is the least dead emacs written in Common Lisp. 18:36:29 emacs isn't written in CL... 18:36:32 ...whatever 18:37:20 zort-: Seriously, if your barking elswhere its up the wrong tree. 18:38:20 Hemlock works, it doesn't need maintainance. Therefore it's deader than my own small emacs-like editor written in Common Lisp. It was dead for a lot time, but I made some patches last month. 18:38:31 zort-: You can look at the old LM code prior to Stallman's shit fit and _see_ that most of it got converted to the C-vm 18:38:34 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:38:36 However, It's not published yet, and it's much less usable than Hemlock. 18:38:44 But you asked for a less dead code... 18:39:04 gkeith_lt [~gkeith@74-93-184-209-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:21 this is extremely odd 18:40:26 zort-: "least dead" is the dumbest question you can ask about emacsen written in CL. 18:40:48 (about any software actually). 18:41:09 (let (var) (defun func () (unless var (setf var some-value)) var) 18:41:26 the value of var actually changes after i reload asdf system. how is that possible 18:41:32 Nothing odd there. 18:41:44 If you reload it, you get a new closure. 18:41:51 hmm 18:42:02 Try defvar 18:42:09 but even when it doesn't reload 18:42:17 yes I've tried defvar, same thing 18:42:21 No. 18:42:27 Unless you delete the package. 18:42:37 i didnt delete the package and the value changed 18:42:53 They you're not showing us the relevant code. 18:43:06 that's pretty much all there's to it 18:43:15 value is a foreign poiner if it matters 18:43:53 It might. 18:44:04 actually lol 18:44:11 it changes during runtime too 18:44:18 is that garbage collector at work? 18:44:38 You probably have a dangling foreign pointer somewhere. 18:44:44 Avoid FFI, it's a bitch. 18:44:47 Rewrite it in Lisp. 18:44:53 mon_key: I recall reading some of those array limitations; can't find it now. I do believe most-positive-fixnum or less is the maximum number of elements due to some internal addressing, but I'd (read: you'd) have to find it again 18:44:53 tgrr: what do you mean, "it changes during runtime"? 18:45:01 the pointer shouldn't change. 18:45:12 pkhuong the value of the pointer changes 18:45:13 There's no reason the pointed-to value wouldn't, though. 18:45:39 tgrr: why don't you paste a transcript with the unexpected results? 18:45:46 One of these days I will remember which variant of ~[ does what. 18:45:48 Phoodus: How'd you know i was working on arrays :P 18:46:01 moment i willl strip all the irrelevant code 18:46:10 mstevens [~mstevens@ceres.etla.org] has joined #lisp 18:46:10 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@ceres.etla.org] has quit [Changing host] 18:46:10 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 18:46:19 oh, you asked about bignums, not arrays 18:46:39 I'd suspect related limits there, too 18:46:52 Phoodus: well in this case its apropos. 18:47:14 but you are talking about numbers that fill most of your address space, so the usefulness of increased limits because fairly minimal ;) 18:47:35 mon_key: max length for a bignum on 32 bit sbcl is (2^24 - 2) words. 18:47:44 pkhuong: THANKS! 18:51:13 pkhuong: It was suggested yesterday that you might know the answer to this question as well: Is there some technical reason why cl:sbit can not be viable argument in the car of PLACE argument to SBCL's sb-ext:compare-and-swap? 18:52:03 mon_key: that's not supported by any hardware that I know. 18:53:26 -!- gkeith_lt [~gkeith@74-93-184-209-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:53:32 plus, even if it were, I'd highly recommend avoiding narrower writes than reads, especially when dealing with shared memory. 18:54:43 pkhuong: I was not understanding that it was a hardware thing. I guess i didn't dig far enough down the rabbit hole. 18:55:58 mon_key: sb-ext:c-a-s is an interface to hw atomic CAS functionality 18:56:27 as such, it will work only on what hw supports for those, which most likely are words and possibly doublewords 18:56:54 OK. It just seemed like if i could do a CAS on a svref it might be nice to do it on a simple-bit-vector as well. 18:57:05 kslt1 [~user@netblock-208-127-156-174.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 18:57:26 p_l|backup: dcas isn't that common. 18:58:24 pkhuong: well, it exists for x86, likely the main platform mon_key might use SBCL on... 18:59:27 *p_l|backup* points to cx8 and cx16 CPUID flags 19:00:46 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-54-177.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:02:19 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:06:09 gkeith_lt [~gkeith@216.239.45.130] has joined #lisp 19:11:26 -!- ngz [~user@209.141.80.79.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:14:47 ollkorrekt [~psych069@87.246.39.12] has joined #lisp 19:16:32 -!- ollkorrekt [~psych069@87.246.39.12] has quit [Client Quit] 19:20:01 -!- sellout [~Adium@195.91.109.215] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:28:58 sellout [~Adium@195.91.109.215] has joined #lisp 19:29:16 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:30:40 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216.239.45.16] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 19:30:54 -!- symbole [~user@ool-4a5a4bdd.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:31:10 kpreid [~kpreid@216.239.45.16] has joined #lisp 19:32:32 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-54-177.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:32:54 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-67-180-32-11.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:00 -!- sellout [~Adium@195.91.109.215] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:43:10 sellout [~Adium@195.91.109.215] has joined #lisp 19:43:26 -!- sellout [~Adium@195.91.109.215] has quit [Client Quit] 19:43:33 sellout [~Adium@195.91.109.215] has joined #lisp 19:43:36 -!- sellout is now known as Guest28394 19:45:52 fourier [~user@213.141.149.93] has joined #lisp 19:57:13 macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 20:00:37 -!- barryfm [~barryfm@fl-71-2-133-215.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has left #lisp 20:03:53 pnq [~nick@AC816596.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 20:05:01 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@c83-248-137-60.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 20:07:45 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@p57A400D1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:13:19 foocraft_ [~ewanas@78.101.60.164] has joined #lisp 20:14:45 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:15:34 -!- ISF [~ivan@187.106.54.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:17:08 -!- sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:23:32 -!- gkeith_lt [~gkeith@216.239.45.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:23:40 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:23:58 -!- ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:28:13 gravicappa [~gravicapp@p57A401C1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:28:24 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:32:04 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:34:18 When running interpreted, how does a lisp tend to represent the lexical scope (as would be captured by any lambda). . . an alist symbol->value? 20:34:35 That's a possibility. 20:34:49 It's probably the most efficient in most cases. 20:36:34 depends on the level of interpretation. 20:37:15 -!- fourier [~user@213.141.149.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:38:03 HG`` [~HG@p5DC0533B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:39 -!- HG` [~HG@p5DC056BB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:40:48 s0ber_ [~s0ber@111-240-166-14.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:57 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-164-228.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:43:00 or vectors, to make access fast if not looking up dynamically 20:43:01 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 20:43:31 Vivitron [~user@pool-71-174-61-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:24 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-166-94.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:52:31 lbc [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 20:53:29 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-174-180.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:53:32 pavelludiq [~pavelludi@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 20:56:10 -!- pavelludiq [~pavelludi@87.246.58.193] has quit [Client Quit] 20:56:23 pavelludiq [~pavelludi@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 21:00:09 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@p4FCDFBE0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 21:01:26 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@p57A401C1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:03:23 -!- pnq [~nick@AC816596.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:04:41 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-166-94.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:07:42 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-133-202.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:09:32 How do lisps tend to send call parameters to a function call? Put them on the stack individually? How is length marked (since it's usually variable)? 21:10:29 Anything can go. 21:11:17 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:15:41 -!- Hundenn [~Hunden@e180103219.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:18:46 gkeith_lt [~gkeith@75.103.61.211] has joined #lisp 21:18:55 zmv [~Telefonic@187.10.42.31] has joined #lisp 21:21:15 ympbyc [~ympbyc@122-57-179-116.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:21:22 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-198-251.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:27 -!- ASau [~user@95-27-147-30.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:27:13 ASau [~user@95-27-147-30.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 21:27:53 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 21:29:40 -!- doc_who [~doc_who@pool-108-28-6-47.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:31:52 ISF [~ivan@187.106.54.41] has joined #lisp 21:33:16 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:33:46 alex` [~alex@p549B3613.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:04 -!- tgrr [~tgrr@76.73.16.26] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)] 21:38:45 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:39:13 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.10.42.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:40:42 zmv [~Telefonic@187.10.42.31] has joined #lisp 21:41:08 -!- zmv is now known as Guest84265 21:41:20 nathanielksmith [~nodebot@184-106-222-160.static.cloud-ips.com] has joined #lisp 21:41:28 -!- nathanielksmith [~nodebot@184-106-222-160.static.cloud-ips.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:41:44 -!- Guest28394 [~Adium@195.91.109.215] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:42:45 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-46-38.iburst.co.za] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:43:09 sellout [~Adium@195.91.109.215] has joined #lisp 21:44:46 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-144-222.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:45:07 Modius: frodef wrote about the approach used by movitz. it was something like the first N (3?) in registers, then a register that pointed to a list of the rest. 21:46:41 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:51:09 symbole [~user@ool-4a5a4bdd.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:53:14 Xach: What was used to indicate if < 3 were in use? 21:55:19 zmv_ [~Telefonic@187.10.42.31] has joined #lisp 21:55:45 -!- zmv_ is now known as Guest15006 21:57:10 -!- alex` [~alex@p549B3613.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:57:55 -!- Guest84265 [~Telefonic@187.10.42.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:58:48 -!- Guest15006 is now known as zmv 21:58:57 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-210-180.w2-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:59:07 -!- HG`` [~HG@p5DC0533B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:59:19 -!- zmv is now known as Guest37614 22:00:06 -!- Guest37614 is now known as zmv 22:03:26 urandom_ [~user@p548A5F9D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:05:21 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A4D08.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:07:15 pnq [~nick@AC8101E7.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 22:07:33 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-198-251.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:08:33 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:09:12 sort of related, currently have some code like this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/123560 , and I know the return type of "x" (float or integer), but the length of selected-children (a list) is not known. How can I tell the compiler helpful information (or get rid of making a list/passing a list, etc). I have found a decent amount of documentation on providing information if you know the number of arguments, but not much on an unknown number. I 22:11:14 -!- symbole [~user@ool-4a5a4bdd.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:13:13 jiacobucci: I'd worry more about changing APPLY to REDUCE than declarations. ;-) 22:13:56 -!- sellout [~Adium@195.91.109.215] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:15:55 gigamonkey: small snag though, hoping to be fairly general, reduce is only binary 22:16:40 zmv__ [~Telefonic@187.10.42.31] has joined #lisp 22:16:53 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-013-150.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:10 You mean you're going to use something other than #'+ ? 22:17:40 yeah. something that may depend on position of the elements. 22:18:18 Sounds confusing. What are you actually trying to do? 22:18:19 jiacobucci: (* 2 (reduce (function +) selected-children :key (lambda (x) (funcall x *current-metric*)))) 22:19:11 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.10.42.31] has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:19:14 -!- zmv__ is now known as zmv 22:20:22 http://paste.lisp.org/display/123560 22:20:29 jiacobucci: ^ 22:20:39 its a small dsl for modeling performance of different systems. idea is that users can use whatever functions that they want, the #'+ was an aggregation step (many->one) to combine the results of the children, the * is a transformation step (one ->one ) (think scaling) 22:21:02 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:22:11 jiacobucci: if you need the position, use something like a cons where the ar is the actual accumulated result and the cdr is the position 22:23:06 ar->car 22:23:35 acelent: I'll try that, is reduce that much faster than apply? 22:23:39 -!- ISF [~ivan@187.106.54.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:23:55 jiacobucci: apply cannot work if you pass it too many arguments. 22:24:06 clhs call-arguments-limit 22:24:07 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_call_a.htm 22:24:30 Well, more precisely, apply might work, but + cannot receive more than that number of arguments. 22:24:48 should be smaller than 10. 50 sounds like a great limit. 22:25:15 If you can prove that you'll never have more than 50 elements in selected-children, then you can use apply unconditionnaly. 22:27:05 yeah, that is a reasonable restriction, I wasn't going to run into that issue. 22:27:25 jiacobucci: reduce is not faster than apply, it's different 22:27:27 jiacobucci: to answer you, (apply '+ list) is intuitively faster than (reduce '+ list). 22:27:40 jiacobucci: however, there are things you do with reduce that you don't with apply 22:28:00 And the implementation may also optimize reduce so that they're as fast one as the other. 22:28:13 In that case, avoiding the mapcar would be faster. 22:28:18 jiacobucci: specifically, apply with mapcar generates garbage, reduce with key doesn't 22:28:58 -!- Joreji [~thomas@83-096.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:28:58 -!- elliottcable is now known as ec 22:30:23 -!- ec is now known as [e] 22:31:18 acelent: thanks, thats helpful. I could sense(?) that that extra garage wasn't helping. But I was also looking to avoid having users express their algorithms in a two argument function that plays nice with reduce. Might be the way to go. 22:33:22 Modius: not sure, i'd have to re-read the paper to find the calling convention 22:33:58 jiacobucci: you don't have to force the users to to that, you can also have a wrapper lambda as reduce's first argument that abstracts the iterating mechanism 22:34:38 jiacobucci: in fact, you can as well just use dolist to make the code more clear 22:35:41 -!- gkeith_lt [~gkeith@75.103.61.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:35:51 zmv__ [~Telefonic@187.10.42.31] has joined #lisp 22:36:30 mindCrime [~chatzilla@static-50-52-147-222.drhm.nc.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:12 -!- kslt1 [~user@netblock-208-127-156-174.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:37:32 -!- [e] is now known as ec 22:37:44 Modius: I think usually one register is used to hold the number of arguments. 22:38:42 I think for Movitz I copied Allegro's mechanism, which was to use the CL 8-bit register for this. 22:39:00 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-74-67-199-254.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:39:28 ..for less than 128 arguments, that is. For more arguments you use the whole 32-bit register. 22:39:42 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.10.42.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:40:40 For movitz I also had special function entry-points for 1, 2, and 3 arguments, so for these (about 90%) cases I didn't have to use that register at all. 22:42:43 acelent: dolist won't help me keep the values around, I need to pass those further up. dolist returns nil 22:45:05 mrSpec [~Spec@pool-151-204-255-122.bstnma.btas.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:45:05 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@pool-151-204-255-122.bstnma.btas.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:45:05 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 22:46:02 Mococa [~Mococa@187.59.130.251] has joined #lisp 22:48:06 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-76-178-243-38.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:50:09 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 22:52:00 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 22:53:37 jiacobucci: (do-something-with-list (dolist (element list list) ...)) 22:56:43 zmv [~Telefonic@187.10.42.31] has joined #lisp 22:57:09 -!- zmv is now known as Guest25860 22:57:28 jiacobucci: (let ((position 0) (acc 0)) (dolist (x list) (setf acc (funcall user-function acc x position)) (incf position)) acc) 22:57:47 jiacobucci: i really don't know what you're up to, but this might shed a light 22:58:46 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-67-180-32-11.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:59:40 jiacobucci: are you making a library? are you making a function that receives a function? what signature does the function need to have (args -> results)? 22:59:41 -!- zmv__ [~Telefonic@187.10.42.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:01:56 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:03:31 -!- ec is now known as purr 23:04:50 chu [~mathew.ba@130.56.92.101] has joined #lisp 23:05:53 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:07:33 acelent: http://paste.lisp.org/+2NC8/2 , its a part of a macro that takes the symbols for the transformation and aggregation functions. The results of one transformation/aggregation step are used as one of the inputs to another trans/aggre function. 23:08:31 So if it's a macro, then you can do stuff at compile time since you know how many function names you've got. 23:09:36 gigamonkey: well, all possible lengths of the function names list are known, but not which one will be chosen. selected-children happens at runtime. 23:10:17 Ah. 23:10:30 How? 23:12:56 I am enumerating through all possible choices. There is a tree of these trans/aggre functions where the leaves end up being numbers. When you call the root of the tree after making a set of decisions (for each node), then you get a score for the whole tree. 23:13:01 -!- Daev [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:13:01 jiacobucci: ok, now I understand what you meant with "something that may depend on position of the elements". however, i'd suggest aggregation to be a function that receives a list (or a sequence, e.g. a list or a vector) and a keyword argument called key 23:13:18 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.116.187] has joined #lisp 23:13:27 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.116.187] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:14:07 -!- Guest25860 is now known as zmv 23:15:30 -!- jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.56] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:15:58 acelent: yeah, I am considering making it a vector. Shouldn't be hard to code that up and test. thanks for the help. 23:17:02 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-67-180-32-11.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:44 zmv_ [~Telefonic@187.10.42.31] has joined #lisp 23:18:53 nicdev_ [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:19:10 -!- zmv_ is now known as Guest45766 23:19:57 -!- zmv is now known as Guest88225 23:21:52 seangrove [~user@c-98-248-33-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:58 -!- Guest88225 [~Telefonic@187.10.42.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:23:25 dnolen_ [~davidnole@pool-68-161-130-84.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:24:05 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@130.56.92.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:25:56 La0fer [~Laofers1@64.120.233.114] has joined #lisp 23:26:57 -!- Guest45766 is now known as zmv 23:27:30 Evanescence [~chris@122.237.3.129] has joined #lisp 23:27:36 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.116.187] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:28:11 -!- pnq [~nick@AC8101E7.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:31:47 -!- purr is now known as elliottcable 23:33:46 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:39:47 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.211.155] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 23:40:49 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 23:41:07 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.10.42.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:43:04 Guest35098 [~Telefonic@187.10.42.31] has joined #lisp 23:45:07 Deathaholic [~Mococa@187.59.130.251] has joined #lisp 23:45:23 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.59.130.251] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:46:33 cnl [~cnl@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 23:51:54 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-76-143.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:52:24 -!- Deathaholic [~Mococa@187.59.130.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:52:51 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 23:54:35 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:55:01 -!- benny [~benny@i577A84C9.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:55:03 -!- zort- [~user@bas1-toronto07-1176122518.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:58:59 -!- drdo [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:59:41 zmv__ [~Telefonic@187.10.42.31] has joined #lisp