00:01:14 -!- daigo [~daigo@nttkyo118024.tkyo.nt.ngn2.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:06:52 gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-50-126-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:11 chu_ [~chu@CPE-58-165-253-149.lns1.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 00:08:44 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-50-126-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:13:12 -!- rosario [~rosario@2002:4fcd:d6b0:0:21f:e2ff:fea9:b9d8] has quit [Quit: Bye.] 00:17:04 -!- joebo [423d7877@gateway/web/freenode/ip.66.61.120.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:18:24 -!- lichtblau [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:19:41 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Quit: Bar.] 00:20:37 Which has the most recent update : commqt or cl-smoke? I can't seem to find any revs dating changes last. 00:22:55 nicdev_ [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 00:23:58 ISF [~ivan@201.82.135.204] has joined #lisp 00:24:59 Evanescence [~chris@122.237.1.241] has joined #lisp 00:25:21 fantazo_ [~fantazo@178-191-162-51.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 00:26:30 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-166-65.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:32:44 Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 00:33:20 cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:16 superflit [~superflit@71-33-186-56.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:24 -!- Evanescence [~chris@122.237.1.241] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:36:48 -!- Joreji [~thomas@90-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:38:13 genieliu [~genieliu@59.78.62.120] has joined #lisp 00:41:37 -!- dnolen_away [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: 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[Quit: sleep] 02:08:13 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:09:25 -!- genieliu [~genieliu@59.78.62.120] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 02:11:50 daigo [~daigo@nttkyo118024.tkyo.nt.ngn2.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:15:22 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-143-106.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:15:38 -!- wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-50-131-44-231.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:16:02 -!- cheezus [~Adium@206-248-160-123.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:16:13 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:18:16 -!- Soulman [~knute@132.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 02:20:40 -!- xan_ [~xan@94.Red-193-152-140.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:22:22 -!- daigo [~daigo@nttkyo118024.tkyo.nt.ngn2.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:22:46 daigo [~daigo@nttkyo118024.tkyo.nt.ngn2.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:24:40 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-80-192-44.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:44 srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has joined #lisp 02:26:55 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.167.226.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:28:27 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.135.204] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:28:38 ISF [~ivan@201.82.135.204] has joined #lisp 02:29:09 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.135.204] has quit [Client Quit] 02:29:45 ISF [~ivan@201.82.135.204] has joined #lisp 02:37:38 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A220A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:41:24 -!- Daev [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:41:32 load'16 02:47:05 Any particular reason why EQ, EQL, etc. take two arguments instead of n arguments (I'm guessing no particular reason)? 02:51:37 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:53:39 -!- denebola [~denebola@S0106001966a61521.wp.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:56:26 Daev [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:58:27 zort-: because it's massively less complicated to answer true/false for more than two objects compared at a time 02:58:39 er... s/more than/just/ 02:59:52 denebola [~denebola@S0106001966a61521.wp.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:20 It would be easy enough to define a macro which accepts an arbitrry number of arguments, if you need it. 03:04:04 (eq 1 1 2) => ? 03:07:36 BrianRice same as (< 1 2 2) 03:07:49 (which is allowed) 03:07:51 (defmacro eq* (rest args) ...) 03:08:02 You can go ahead and fill in ... yourself :) 03:08:37 why make it a macro though 03:08:50 drks [~rlmn@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 03:09:19 pislocide [~PC@ip72-213-141-195.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:11:11 hello. (loop for (a b) on '(1 2 3) collect (list a b)) => ((1 2) (2 3) (3 NIL)) 03:11:33 how to omit (3 NIL) ? 03:12:14 tsanhwa [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has joined #lisp 03:12:16 maybe (loop for (a b) on '(1 2 3) unless (null b) collect (list a b)) 03:12:44 assuming your list doesn't have nil in it anyway 03:12:56 hi, how can I get out of KEYWORD package in REPL after I enter it with (in-package #:keyword) 03:12:57 yes it won't thanks 03:13:33 iirc you can use (a . b) instead to make b the cdr of the list, then change the collect to (list a (car b)) 03:13:39 tsanhwa: (cl:in-package #:cl-user) 03:14:01 o, thank you so much 03:14:23 ah, that way if b was nil it would mean the end of list 03:14:28 (yes (a . b) works) 03:20:51 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.135.204] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:21:27 ISF [~ivan@201.82.135.204] has joined #lisp 03:22:20 Quadrescence [~quadbook@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 03:22:55 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.135.204] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:23:00 -!- X-Scale [email@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:23:38 ISF [~ivan@201.82.135.204] has joined #lisp 03:24:28 lewis1711 [~lewis@222-155-24-142.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:25:12 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-98-113-194-183.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:25:37 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.162.244] has left #lisp 03:27:03 -!- Quadrescence [~quadbook@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:38:20 https://gist.github.com/1074230 why will something like this trigger a type error in some common lisps but not others? is this undefined in the standard? 03:45:38 xcv [~xcv@dsl-225-28.hive.is] has joined #lisp 03:47:47 anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has joined #lisp 03:52:54 lewis1711: declarations are promises YOU are making to the implementation. 03:53:03 lewis1711: if you lie to your implementation, then anything may happen. 03:54:01 so it's undefined? 03:54:07 Yes. Notably, with most implementations, it will depend on the optimization settings. 03:54:25 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-80-192-44.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:09:41 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-80-192-44.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:14:24 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 04:14:49 -!- drks [~rlmn@76.73.16.26] has quit [Quit: ..] 04:18:51 -!- denebola [~denebola@S0106001966a61521.wp.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 04:18:55 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.84.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:20:34 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.80.5] has joined #lisp 04:21:54 Night-hacks [~nullpoint@95.38.52.69] has joined #lisp 04:22:44 pnq [~nick@172.162.139.204] has joined #lisp 04:23:44 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-181-173.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 04:24:12 -!- jiacobucci [~jiacobucc@gw-asdl.ae.gatech.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:24:51 -!- Night-hacks 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[~lewis@222-155-24-142.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:28:05 clsimons [~csimons@c-98-202-21-204.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:29:23 -!- clsimons [~csimons@c-98-202-21-204.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:35:26 -!- srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 06:36:55 -!- Persol [~gfhfghs@S0106000ae61148f6.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [] 06:43:24 -!- ugoubuntu [~ugoubuntu@222.209.32.32] has left #lisp 06:43:56 ugoubuntu [~ugoubuntu@222.209.32.32] has joined #lisp 06:46:55 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.135.204] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 06:47:05 tessier [~treed@216.105.40.125] has joined #lisp 06:47:28 ISF [~ivan@201.82.135.204] has joined #lisp 06:53:34 fourier [~user@213.141.149.93] has joined #lisp 06:56:17 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.158.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:01:22 whee [~whee@misplaced.smaertness.net] has joined #lisp 07:02:40 am0c [~am0c@183.96.27.142] has joined #lisp 07:04:51 -!- ugoubuntu [~ugoubuntu@222.209.32.32] has quit [Quit: see u] 07:05:16 ugoubuntu [~ugoubuntu@222.209.32.32] has joined #lisp 07:05:17 jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-145.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:05:54 -!- ugoubuntu [~ugoubuntu@222.209.32.32] has quit [Client Quit] 07:06:17 ugoubuntu [~ugoubuntu@222.209.32.32] has joined #lisp 07:08:52 nicdev_ [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 07:09:44 wow, there are some nice lisp webdev things around: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2745757 07:09:48 (I didn't know about WuWei) 07:11:34 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-116.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:12:42 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-140-17.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 07:13:25 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.165.14] has joined #lisp 07:13:26 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.135.204] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 07:19:36 -!- sellout- [~Adium@ALagny-751-1-2-90.w86-218.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:19:36 sellout-1 [~Adium@98.158.124.49] has joined #lisp 07:21:58 -!- cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:22:51 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-145.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:23:13 gor[e] [~svr@gw2.masterhost.ru] has joined #lisp 07:23:39 louis418 [~louis@cm218-253-158-90.hkcable.com.hk] has joined #lisp 07:23:41 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:30:09 flor [~flor@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 07:30:31 hi. is there a function to check if all the characters in a string are digits? or should I loop? 07:30:39 + use digit-char-p 07:31:09 <_3b> (every 'digit-char-p x) ? 07:31:23 -!- sellout-1 [~Adium@98.158.124.49] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:31:27 nice thanks 07:31:32 sellout- [~Adium@98.158.124.49] has joined #lisp 07:31:42 i thought that works only with lists 07:32:01 like mapcar 07:32:02 <_3b> clhs every 07:32:03 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_everyc.htm 07:32:18 all sequences (: 07:32:19 sharps [~hazel@121-72-240-85.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #lisp 07:32:24 <_3b> sequences in general, like MAP 07:34:59 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-159-249.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:35:25 Blkt [~user@82.84.130.109] has joined #lisp 07:35:34 okay 07:35:56 btw I have noticed that some write #'func and some 'func. is that a style issue? 07:36:08 <_3b> no, they mean different things 07:36:20 <_3b> same effect in many situations, but not all 07:36:41 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-116.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:36:50 <_3b> #'func is (function func) which returns the function named FUNC in the current lexical scope, 'func is (quote func) which returns the symbol named FUNC 07:36:54 is it ok to always use ' instead of #' when passing function as argument 07:37:01 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-168-252.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:37:16 <_3b> FUNCALL accepts either a symbol or function, and when passed a symbol looks for a function with that name in the global scope 07:37:39 ah 07:37:54 <_3b> so if the function named FUNC in the current lexical scope is the same as the function named FUNC in the global scope, (funcall #'func) and (funcall 'func) will have the same effect 07:38:04 so if I had (flet ((foo ..)) they would be different 07:38:09 <_3b> right 07:38:22 <_3b> there are also differences if you store the value, and later redefine the function 07:38:43 does #'func still refer to the old function 07:39:22 <_3b> #'func gets evaluated and returns a function objects 07:39:23 if you assigned #'func i mean 07:39:31 Persol [~gfhfghs@S0106000ae61148f6.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 07:39:39 <_3b> that function doesn't know anything about how you got it 07:40:12 so the variable assigned with #'func will still refer to old function? 07:40:18 <_3b> so for example the value stored in *foo* by (setf *foo* #'func) will not be affected by later modifications to FUNC 07:40:25 yeah I see 07:40:55 not sure if that's often desirable 07:40:58 <_3b> (it isn't quite right to say "#'func" refers to the old function, since it refers to exactly the function defined when it is evaluated) 07:41:14 <_3b> (is is the value returned by it that is "old" or not) 07:41:22 good day everyone 07:41:30 -!- Harag [~Harag@41.146.232.248] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:42:00 <_3b> it depends on what you are doing... you might want to redefine a function and have it call the old version or something like that 07:42:10 yes 07:42:30 I didn't realize how important this subtle difference can be 07:43:37 so say I'm storing references to functions to a hash table, and I always want to refer to the newest version of function. I would have to push 'func instead of #'func 07:43:45 *_3b* supposes there might also be cases where you want to capture a specific closure or something too 07:44:02 <_3b> suonds right 07:44:26 Harag [~Harag@41.146.232.248] has joined #lisp 07:44:32 <_3b> assuming FUNC is a global function 07:45:04 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-38-154-91.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:45:17 <_3b> but there isn't really a "newer version" of a local function unless you evaluate the form again, in which case you would probably re-evaluate the assignment with #' too 07:47:01 so by default do you use 'func? I see you used it in every call above 07:47:50 *_3b* isn't sure i have a preference 07:48:17 <_3b> probably picked ' above because it is a bit shorter to type 07:48:54 <_3b> #' is a bit more obvious that you are doing something with functions, and some people here would even type out (function func) instead of using #'func 07:49:24 why (function func), isn't that what #' does 07:49:47 <_3b> it is the same, just personal preference 07:49:58 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-69-166.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:49:59 ok 07:50:33 how does one macroexpand things like #' ? 07:50:52 <_3b> READ? 07:51:08 -!- insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-81-254.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:51:10 <_3b> or maybe READ-FROM-STRING 07:51:34 (read-from-string "#'length") just gives #'length 07:52:03 Hansy_ [~Hansy@190.43.18.46] has joined #lisp 07:52:03 <_3b> but the repl is as likely as not to just print it that way again, so you need to print it with *print-pretty* set to nil 07:52:40 <_3b> for example (write (read-from-string "#'foo") :pretty nil) 07:53:49 then I get #. I'd like to just see what it expands to, the code for that reader macro. (function length) in this case 07:53:51 not possible? 07:54:14 <_3b> did you miss the "" there? 07:54:15 -!- nicdev_ [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: nicdev_] 07:54:33 no 07:55:22 <_3b> lisppaste: url 07:55:23 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 07:55:55 <_3b> copy what you did and how it responded and paste it there ^ 07:55:58 -!- Hansy_ [~Hansy@190.43.18.46] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 07:56:27 Hansy [~Hansy@190.43.18.46] has joined #lisp 07:56:57 actually my mistake it works here 07:57:03 <_3b> ok :) 07:57:19 -!- Hansy [~Hansy@190.43.18.46] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:57:30 but say (read-from-string "#b1010") just gives me 42 instead of the code it expands to 07:57:39 Hansy [~Hansy@190.43.18.46] has joined #lisp 07:57:44 <_3b> it expands to 42 07:58:12 can't I see the actual code though, like with defmacro and macroexpand-1 07:58:41 -!- Hansy [~Hansy@190.43.18.46] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:58:41 or I guess that's it? it evaluates it to 42 at compile time 07:59:13 gxdssoft [~Hansy@190.43.18.46] has joined #lisp 07:59:18 <_3b> same as (defmacro b (b) (parse-integer b :radix 2)) (b "1010") would 07:59:27 yeah 07:59:28 <_3b> it evaluates to the number at READ time, which is before compile time 07:59:39 <_3b> the macro would expand at compile time 07:59:48 right 08:00:30 -!- louis418 [~louis@cm218-253-158-90.hkcable.com.hk] has quit [Quit: ] 08:09:39 -!- drdo [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:14:31 realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:15:38 -!- daigo [~daigo@nttkyo118024.tkyo.nt.ngn2.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:23:45 -!- gor[e] [~svr@gw2.masterhost.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:23:45 what happened to cl-user.net? 08:25:26 fantazo__ [~fantazo@178-190-234-36.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 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#lisp 08:49:11 -!- ugoubuntu [~ugoubuntu@222.209.32.32] has quit [Quit: see u] 08:50:48 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 08:55:27 -!- gxdssoft [~Hansy@190.43.18.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:03:50 -!- alexey_z [~alexey_z@ppp85-141-140-184.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:07:53 Joreji [~thomas@90-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 09:08:28 splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 09:08:39 morning 09:13:29 Blkt [~user@82.84.130.109] has joined #lisp 09:20:13 -!- ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:22:09 either that, or it sank 09:26:45 DelPuerto [~youguy@240.pool85-56-66.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 09:27:04 -!- DelPuerto [~youguy@240.pool85-56-66.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:29:04 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.165.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:38:45 -!- taiyal 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[~gravicapp@ppp91-77-214-179.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 10:52:35 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 10:53:12 c_arenz [~arenz@p5B2CD3B5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:54:36 -!- cheier [~amedueces@c-76-107-19-58.hsd1.ms.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:56:59 daigo [~daigo@EM117-55-65-139.emobile.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 10:57:13 -!- drunkk [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:57:31 mrSpec [~Spec@pool-151-204-255-122.bstnma.btas.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:57:31 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@pool-151-204-255-122.bstnma.btas.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 10:57:31 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 10:57:54 gor[e] [~svr@gw2.masterhost.ru] has joined #lisp 10:58:47 H4ns````` [~user@p4FFC8D9B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:59:09 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 10:59:38 -!- sellout- [~Adium@ALagny-751-1-2-90.w86-218.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:59:38 sellout-1 [~Adium@ALagny-751-1-2-90.w86-218.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:01:46 daniel [~daniel@p5B3260D0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:03:12 -!- H4ns```` [~user@p4FFC8F81.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:03:49 -!- rosario [~rosario@2002:5796:74d6:0:21f:e2ff:fea9:b9d8] has quit [Quit: Bye.] 11:04:21 -!- daniel__1 [~daniel@p5082AB22.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:05:59 Guthur [~Guthur@host86-132-123-24.range86-132.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:12:29 xxxyyy1 [~xyxu@222.68.167.188] has joined #lisp 11:20:41 chp [~chp@110.204.161.77] has joined #lisp 11:21:07 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 11:22:20 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-33-186-56.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:27:06 superflit [~superflit@71-208-217-133.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 11:28:32 -!- chp [~chp@110.204.161.77] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:29:47 Athas [~athas@0xbcb35cbe.cpe.ge-2-2-0-1104.glnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 11:31:08 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 11:34:22 serichsen [~user@hmbg-4d069c9e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:34:24 Hello! 11:34:34 Hey. 11:35:10 -!- Blkt [~user@82.84.130.109] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:44:11 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-159-249.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:47:40 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-208-217-133.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:53:19 -!- delian66 [~quassel@84.252.14.164] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:54:51 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-159-249.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:56:18 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-143-106.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:58:16 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 11:58:21 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-159-249.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:00:09 -!- daigo [~daigo@EM117-55-65-139.emobile.ad.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:01:38 sellout- [~Adium@ALagny-751-1-2-90.w86-218.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:03:33 kisp [~user@p5DDBB803.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:05 -!- sellout-1 [~Adium@ALagny-751-1-2-90.w86-218.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:07:28 rosario [~rosario@2002:5796:74d6:0:22cf:30ff:fe67:e789] has joined #lisp 12:14:27 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-214-179.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:20:14 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-176-129.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:21:43 daigo [~daigo@nttkyo118024.tkyo.nt.ngn2.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:22:00 -!- xxxyyy1 [~xyxu@222.68.167.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:22:08 pnq [~nick@ACA26387.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 12:22:51 urandom__ [~user@p548A495F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:23:16 -!- tessier [~treed@216.105.40.125] has quit [Changing host] 12:23:16 tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has joined #lisp 12:25:22 -!- rosario [~rosario@2002:5796:74d6:0:22cf:30ff:fe67:e789] has quit [Quit: Bye.] 12:25:30 rosario [~rosario@2002:5796:74d6:0:21f:e2ff:fea9:b9d8] has joined #lisp 12:30:05 Joreji [~thomas@90-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:36:51 genieliu [~genieliu@59.78.62.120] has joined #lisp 12:40:32 Can someone tell me what the 'things with a colon at the beginning' are called so I can read up on them? 12:41:06 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-98-113-194-183.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:42:00 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.161.107] has joined #lisp 12:43:46 Symbols, generally. Keywords, specifically. 12:46:12 So I'm searching for "keyword symbols" ? 12:46:57 lichtblau [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 12:47:09 carlocci [~nes@93.37.218.164] has joined #lisp 12:47:25 /who phryk 12:47:54 /me phryk 12:49:39 silenius [~silenus@p5494770B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:51:42 jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-145.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:53:25 -!- Daev [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:57:02 Sure. see also CLHS 11.1.2.3 12:58:33 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:59:27 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 13:00:04 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:00:17 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:07:39 pinterface: "The KEYWORD-package" ? 13:08:04 Keywords are symbols in the keyword package. 13:08:11 Ah yes. thanks. 13:10:02 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:10:21 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:13:17 -!- tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:13:47 Yuuhi [benni@p5483CE83.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:51 -!- rosario [~rosario@2002:5796:74d6:0:21f:e2ff:fea9:b9d8] has quit [Quit: Bye.] 13:19:59 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.161.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:20:51 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-208-220.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:21:26 tessier [~treed@216.105.40.125] has joined #lisp 13:23:55 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 13:26:22 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757769.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 13:27:08 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-023-239.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:45 Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@1807ds2-noe.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 13:34:57 -!- chu_ [~chu@CPE-58-165-253-149.lns1.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:36:21 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.161.107] has joined #lisp 13:45:11 gxdssoft [~Hansy@190.43.142.196] has joined #lisp 13:46:33 -!- sharps [~hazel@121-72-240-85.cable.telstraclear.net] has left #lisp 13:47:36 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-151-29.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:47:40 -!- quasisane [~sanep@c-76-24-80-97.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:50:12 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:59:44 -!- fourier [~user@213.141.149.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:00:34 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-50-174.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 14:05:33 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 14:16:46 denebola [~denebola@S0106001966a61521.wp.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:43 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 14:19:57 -!- acieroid [~acieroid@wtf.awesom.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:20:04 tippenein [~chatzilla@97.65.218.14] has joined #lisp 14:21:39 -!- benny` is now known as benny 14:22:09 acieroid [~acieroid@wtf.awesom.eu] has joined #lisp 14:24:59 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-159-249.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:26:28 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@93-80-218-127.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:28:41 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-208-220.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:31:39 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-167-243.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:37:42 louis418 [~louis@cm218-253-158-90.hkcable.com.hk] has joined #lisp 14:39:12 'morning 14:39:30 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-023-239.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:41:14 -!- louis418 [~louis@cm218-253-158-90.hkcable.com.hk] has quit [Client Quit] 14:45:44 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-159-249.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:46:47 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-167-243.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:46:47 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA26387.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:50:20 -!- Athas [~athas@0xbcb35cbe.cpe.ge-2-2-0-1104.glnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:51:39 -!- daigo [~daigo@nttkyo118024.tkyo.nt.ngn2.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:53:18 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@host86-132-123-24.range86-132.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:08:26 ChongLi` [~user@dslb-092-076-084-126.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:52 hello Fade 15:19:26 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 15:20:01 -!- ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 15:21:01 pnq [~nick@AC819206.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 15:21:08 -!- genieliu [~genieliu@59.78.62.120] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:26:18 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-176-129.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 15:26:32 Okay this might seem like really dumb question, but how do I fill a list using a loop without having a NIL or some other static value at the beginning of the list? 15:28:03 (fill list 'x :start 1) 15:28:47 Well if you want to ensure the first element is not nil: (fill list 'x :start 0 :end 1) 15:29:36 phryk: what do you mean by "fill"? 15:30:08 serichsen: well i want to append a value onto the list with each run (if a condition is met) 15:30:46 phryk: see the "collect" keyword of "loop". 15:31:03 (loop for i below 10 collect i) 15:31:59 phryk: Example: (loop :for (whatever) :when (hey-cool) :collect (I-want-that)). 15:32:50 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A495F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:33:07 (loop for x = (generator) :when (predicate x) :collect x) perhaps 15:33:50 see also practical common lisp 15:33:57 http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book 15:34:16 Your examples are way over my head :/ 15:34:33 look at the book. better living through documentation! 15:34:37 phryk: OK. What do you want to do exactly? 15:34:48 give me a second 15:35:14 there's a whole section on loop 15:35:26 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 15:35:41 http://pastebin.com/Y8CjzFPy 15:36:32 phryk: don't use setq or setf, use let. 15:36:33 Wow 15:36:41 serichsen: I'm trying to get a list of a-lists containing the pathname and name of the directory of all directories within a given directory 15:36:46 loke_: I know my code sucks :P 15:37:00 well, fsvo 'suck' 15:37:08 are you a c programmer? 15:37:14 phryk: Well, hey. I used to write stuff like that too 15:37:50 Esp. if you're coming from C or one of the scripting languages, it's a very natural style 15:37:56 Fade: I mainly use c-like stuff like perl (earn my money doing php :( ) 15:37:57 -!- pnq [~nick@AC819206.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:38:04 delian66 [~quassel@84.252.14.164] has joined #lisp 15:38:25 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl22-71-31.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 15:38:33 common lisp is naturally lexically scoped, so let is a more natural way to handle function local vars. 15:38:46 -!- delian66 [~quassel@84.252.14.164] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:38:55 delian66 [~quassel@84.252.14.164] has joined #lisp 15:39:16 -!- tsanhwa [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:39:17 practical common lisp is an excellent tutorial text for people who already know how to program in other languages. 15:39:21 you should read it. 15:39:24 phryk: one more issue with your code, make sure you read up on the difference between EQ, EQL and EQUAL. 15:39:38 quasisane [~sanep@c-76-24-80-97.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:39:43 and NULL 15:39:58 ah yeah there was a null function 15:40:05 totally forgot about that 15:40:22 phryk: actually, the functions NULL and NOT are in fact the same function 15:40:25 pjb: Isn't let used to define an anonymous function? 15:40:35 no 15:40:46 phryk: No. It's used to bind local variables in a block 15:40:47 pjb pasted "collect files." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/123179 15:40:55 phryk: have a look ^ 15:40:57 let is used to introduce lexical variables in the scope of its body 15:41:17 phryk: flet is used to define local functions. lambda is used to define anonymous functions. 15:41:53 (cough cough) loop keywords in the keyword package... Not so pretty IMHO :-) 15:42:17 loke_: necessary. 15:42:24 pjb: no 15:42:26 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-181-173.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 15:43:04 Try: (defpackage "MY-LOOPS" (:export "FOR" "WHILE")) (loop for i from 0 while (< i 10)) (use-package "MY-LOOPS") 15:45:28 pjb: well, arguably that's somewhat esoteric. In particular as I never import symbols myself 15:47:53 zort pasted "pointless style question" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/123180 15:48:05 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-80-192-44.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:10 it's pointless but you'll click anyway 15:48:39 zort-: the LOOP one 15:48:42 jtza8 [~AndChat@41.19.93.178] has joined #lisp 15:49:04 zort-: the REDUCE solution looks completely weird unless you stop and think about the what you're ctually calculating 15:49:20 the LOOP is nice and clear, and shows exactly what's going on 15:51:11 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-67-180-32-11.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:51:12 Sooo 15:51:20 order practical common lisp 15:51:25 ordered* 15:51:48 -!- kisp [~user@p5DDBB803.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:52:34 zort-: add a comment to your function and pick either one. 15:53:14 gkeith_lt [~gkeith@c-66-30-3-183.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:53:28 Obviously this is a case of personal taste, but my own taste says that if I have to choose between two options, where one requires a comment to make it clear, the other option is probably better. 15:53:40 Sure. 15:53:44 -!- Jubb [~ghost@c-68-33-206-95.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Jubb] 15:53:53 My personal taste is to write a comment even if it is not necessary. 15:54:00 Besides, the LOOP solution is faster as well. :-) 15:54:06 the loop one is probably clearer though the reduce one is amusing 15:54:10 pjb: If I understand that code correctly when is the condition on which the collect is executed, and collect puts the return-value of its parameter into a temporary list that is returned when the loop is over? (Sorry I can't describe it better) 15:54:17 loke_: perhaps faster yeah. 15:55:46 MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:55:50 srid [~srid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:51 -!- srid [~srid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:55:51 srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has joined #lisp 15:55:56 Even if the compiler manages to inline the REDUCE one (at least SBCL has optimisations for these things), it still has to iterate over the list twice. 15:56:25 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:56:53 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has joined #lisp 15:57:42 loke_: and then it all depends on how the loop ends up, and that might end up better or worse. 15:58:17 schmrkc: True, but LOOP tends to be very heavily optimised. 15:58:27 It reduces to a very simple loop 15:58:29 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-181-173.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:31 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@p5B2CD3B5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:58:34 what is wrong with us 15:59:12 zort-: wrong with who? 15:59:50 Hmm, I thought it was silly to worry about this style stuff 16:00:03 zort-: who said that? 16:00:08 me! 16:00:17 zort-: well, you're wrong 16:00:19 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-154-91.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:22 but I guess there's no harm, nothing better to do. 16:00:35 One can learn a lot from these types of discussions 16:00:36 zort-: For style I couldn't care less. But if your profiling says something needs to be speed up then I'd worry. 16:00:51 and Lispers has, in my impression, a very strong desire for perfection 16:00:57 ugh, carry on 16:01:19 hmm 16:01:31 *schmrkc* is no lisper then ;) 16:03:32 phryk: you can try it: (macroexpand '(loop ...)) The results are implementation dependant, but interesting. 16:03:37 pjb: Relating to your paste: How does the code know what 'file' exactly is? are the statements after the keywords just called with the current item of the loop (in which case i could just smash on the keyword instead of writing 'file') ? 16:04:47 clhs loop 16:04:47 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm 16:04:59 for file in ... will make loop bind file to successive elements of ... 16:05:42 Sorry, I made a mistake, it's for file in (cl-fad:list-directory path) ... 16:06:00 does the NIL type get used for anything in CL? 16:06:10 I'm not too good at copy-and-paste programming... 16:06:20 zfx: yes, to signify that no value is possible. 16:06:27 talyz [~user@2001:67c:2a0:9:216:3eff:fe6b:13eb] has joined #lisp 16:06:43 pjb: is there anything in the hyperspec that exploits that? 16:06:55 (make-array 0 :element-type 'nil) 16:07:08 And notice how it's printed, it's specified so! :-) 16:07:09 X-Scale [email@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has joined #lisp 16:07:48 interesting. 16:08:19 what would you use that for? 16:08:29 Also: (map 'list 'char-code "Hello") vs. (map 'nil 'char-code "Hello") 16:08:45 zfx: that would be used in programs dealing with types. 16:09:11 In CL there are a few functions that take types as argument, such as MAP. 16:10:28 Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.228.7.218] has joined #lisp 16:11:19 xcv [~xcv@dsl-225-28.hive.is] has joined #lisp 16:11:40 okay. I guess I havent personally encountered a situation where I might use that. 16:11:55 I like the elegance of the empty type though. 16:12:04 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.228.7.218] has quit [Client Quit] 16:16:00 (make-array 3 :element-type 'nil) gives me #(0 0 0) :( 16:16:25 Is that right? 0 is not of type NIL. 16:17:19 clhs upgraded-array-element-type 16:17:19 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_upgr_1.htm 16:17:29 yeah I just read that 16:18:19 -!- gkeith_lt [~gkeith@c-66-30-3-183.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:18:43 It's a confused mess between classes and types in that area. 16:19:04 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 16:19:09 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Client Quit] 16:19:24 (make-array 1 :element-type 'nil) gives me a congratulatory message from SBCL. 16:19:44 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-140-17.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:19:44 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.161.107] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:20:13 interaction between a couple clauses in the spec makes it so that nil arrays must exist. However, you can't do anything useful with such a thing. 16:21:28 You can use them as catch objects, or as eof-values. 16:22:20 (defvar *petite-gazongue* (make-array 0 :element-type 'nil)) (catch *petite-gazongue* ...) 16:24:51 -!- xcv [~xcv@dsl-225-28.hive.is] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:25:41 fantazo_ [~fantazo@178-191-169-229.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 16:27:21 am0c [~am0c@222.235.49.86] has joined #lisp 16:27:26 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:29:57 -!- fantazo__ [~fantazo@178-190-234-36.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:30:54 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:33:51 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-176-129.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:16 -!- denebola [~denebola@S0106001966a61521.wp.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 16:35:24 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:35:24 -!- sellout- [~Adium@ALagny-751-1-2-90.w86-218.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:35:24 pjb: you could also use conses. 16:35:31 sellout- [~Adium@98.158.124.99] has joined #lisp 16:35:47 denebola [~denebola@S0106001966a61521.wp.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:59 yes, but an array with zero element of no type are bound to use less memory. Theorically. 16:36:49 Unlikely for such a useless class to be optimized like that. :) 16:38:38 Zhivago: really? 16:38:52 pjb: unlikely to use less memory than a cons, though. 16:39:17 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:39:22 Well, since no-one uses them they'll probably use a generic array layout -- type, rank, dimensions, values. 16:39:24 Except on new, from-scratch, implementations like ABCL or XCL. 16:40:13 s/type/class/ 16:40:59 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:42:07 not here. 16:43:36 Zhivago: on my favourite implementation, nil arrays have a specialised representation (they must), and are defined as having 0-bit elements. 16:43:56 drunkk [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:44:22 They just need a distinct class, but sure. 16:47:16 right, a specialised representation. 16:56:43 -!- sabalaba 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seconds] 18:31:13 bugQ [~bug@c-71-195-207-34.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:19 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-159-249.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:37:35 -!- sellout- [~Adium@98.158.124.99] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:37:36 sellout-1 [~Adium@98.158.124.99] has joined #lisp 18:39:03 xcv [~xcv@hermes.logmenn.com] has joined #lisp 18:39:40 *bugQ* lightbulbs 18:40:09 watching http://blip.tv/clojure/clojure-concurrency-819147 and thought "persistent structure = git clone" 18:47:12 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 18:52:42 silenius [~silenus@p5494770B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:00 HG` [~HG@p5DC058EE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:02 pislocide [~PC@ip72-213-141-195.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:46 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:56:26 -!- drunkk [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:57:43 copy on write 18:59:54 -!- koollman [~samson_t@94.23.51.7] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:00:11 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:03:11 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:04:59 -!- cnl [~cnl@78.31.74.25] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:08:13 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.113] has joined #lisp 19:12:47 koollman [~samson_t@sp1.kooll.info] has joined #lisp 19:13:37 val655 [~val@host213-13-dynamic.18-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:14:26 hi 19:14:30 i've a problem with a program 19:14:38 who can please help me? It's a simple program: 19:14:44 i make a sum in a labels inside a function 19:14:52 this labels make a recursion and a sum 19:15:13 but when all the recursion end, and i came back out of the label to the main function 19:15:15 the sum is nil 19:15:23 (but in labeles it's NOT nil) 19:15:24 why? :-\ 19:15:55 minion: tell val655 about lisppaste 19:15:55 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 19:16:13 val655: make sure you return the sum in question. 19:17:12 jewel: yes but with deltas instead of full copy 19:17:39 so that hashmaps retain constant-ish accesses 19:17:41 no. Persistence means that older versions can be recovered. 19:17:48 yes. 19:17:50 -!- srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 19:17:57 that is what VCSs so 19:18:01 how that's implemented is quite another issue. 19:18:01 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-159-249.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:18:21 You can do it with mutable objects and shallow bindings 19:18:52 this guy's definition also requires that the performance characteristics are not significantly (i.e. asymptotically) different from an ordinary structure 19:18:55 ok 19:18:56 i get it ^^ 19:18:59 sorry. 19:19:03 or with copy on write, or by sticking to explicitly pure data structures (which are usually equivalent to copy-on-write on tres tructures) 19:19:29 Clojure mostly goes with the latter. 19:20:43 francogrex [~user@109.130.33.119] has joined #lisp 19:21:07 IIRC, nearly all data structures can be re-implemented without mutation, except for the one implicit in call-by-need. Okasaki's thesis covers that really nice result. 19:21:55 call-by-need meaning "lazy" ? 19:21:59 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 19:22:05 -!- val655 [~val@host213-13-dynamic.18-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:22:33 man that is a much more descriptive term 19:22:54 bugQ: "lazy" evaluation can be implemented in a number of manners. 19:23:31 Odditus [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 19:23:35 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 19:23:39 call-by-need guarantees, for each value that is bound to an argument or a variable, that value will be evaluated at most once. 19:25:17 So, e.g. (let ((x (lazy-foo))) (+ (force x) (force x))) will not evaluate x twice. Under call by name, each (force x) would evaluate the call... on one hand, that can introduce slowdowns, but it also guarantees that substitution fully preserves the meaning of programs. 19:26:16 -!- sellout-1 [~Adium@98.158.124.99] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:26:21 sellout- [~Adium@98.158.124.99] has joined #lisp 19:26:27 which is not a problem unless x is mutable, yes yes 19:26:41 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:27:13 or if (lazy-foo) has side effects 19:27:40 -!- confab [180a3cb9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.10.60.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:28:15 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-145.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:28:19 bugQ: or you care about asymptotics. 19:28:56 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 19:29:00 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-160-86.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:29:25 -!- albino [~albino@69.12.222.214] has 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seconds] 20:20:13 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-176-129.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:54 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.253.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:21:11 Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.253.71] has joined #lisp 20:24:01 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-169-200.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:24:05 rosario [~rosario@77-64-171-36.dynamic.primacom.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:48 -!- elliottcable is now known as idiot 20:26:05 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-159-249.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:26:18 -!- drunkk [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:27:54 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.253.71] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:33:54 drunkk [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:35:41 -!- tippenein [~chatzilla@97.65.218.14] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]] 20:37:35 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-185-180.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:38:10 srid [~srid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:10 -!- srid [~srid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:38:10 srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has joined #lisp 20:38:13 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-169-200.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:40:58 ISF [~ivan@201.82.135.204] has joined #lisp 20:41:31 -!- Madsy [~madman@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [] 20:41:32 -!- srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has quit [Client Quit] 20:47:00 realitygrill [~realitygr@c-67-180-21-185.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:24 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.83.71.31] has joined #lisp 20:48:26 mcstar [~mcstar@adsl-89-132-51-232.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 20:48:56 hi 20:49:04 ive got a question regarding set-dispatch-macro-character 20:50:06 i added some new syntax with it, and now im wondering, what is the scope of this? can i add this to an asdf loadable package? will this work when i load that package? 20:51:42 -!- idiot is now known as elliottcable 20:53:18 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-67-180-21-185.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:55:33 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-185-180.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:55:45 <_3b> minion: tell mcstar about named readtables 20:55:46 mcstar: you speak nonsense 20:56:09 -!- fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:56:15 fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 20:56:24 good to know 20:56:31 <_3b> http://common-lisp.net/project/named-readtables/ 20:56:46 i found this: http://www.adampetersen.se/articles/lispweb.htm 20:56:49 cool exercise 20:56:55 thanks _3b 20:57:11 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:57:45 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:59:35 _3b: oh nice, i've been looking for exactly that 21:00:06 -!- roblally [~roblally@roblally.plus.com] has left #lisp 21:00:56 xcv [~xcv@hermes.logmenn.com] has joined #lisp 21:01:08 _3b: ok, so what you linked in is an add on 21:01:33 i dont really need to do some fancy stuff 21:02:29 is it safe to assume that when i modify the readtable that change will be available in another package that i loaded after that? 21:02:50 <_3b> reader stuff happens before packages 21:03:57 <_3b> which is one reason that add-on is useful, since you can limit the changes to a specific scope more easily 21:04:50 ah, ok, but for now i want this syntax to be available through a couple of my packages/files, which are all loaded with asdf 21:05:19 i will add that to the first file that .asd references 21:07:33 srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has joined #lisp 21:09:36 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-65.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:09:53 realitygrill [~realitygr@99-203-252-90.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:12 -!- ChongLi` [~user@dslb-092-076-084-126.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:14:07 -!- drunkk [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:15:17 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:16:46 _6502_ [3e0a0483@gateway/web/freenode/ip.62.10.4.131] has joined #lisp 21:17:10 drunkk [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:17:43 <_6502_> hello... how do I use the statistical profiler with SBCL ? the documentation says "(require :sb-prof)" but doesn't work 21:18:12 sb-sprof 21:18:19 <_6502_> doh 21:18:27 *_3b* loads the slime contrib and does M-x slime-sprof-start 21:21:43 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@99-203-252-90.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 21:25:09 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d0101d4.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:47 oi 21:26:52 -!- drunkk [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:27:03 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-65.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:29:00 ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 21:30:35 <_6502_> how I declare the type of an array of built with (make-array n :element-type 'fixnum :initial-element v) ? 21:31:44 <_3b> (simple-array fixnum (n)) if N is constant, otherwise replace n with * 21:31:51 type of the elements of the array? 21:31:53 *_3b* is assuming n isn't a list 21:32:03 :element-type 21:32:13 ah sry 21:32:19 i just saw that 21:33:30 _3b: do you need the parens around n? 21:33:45 <_3b> mcstar: yes, otherwise it would be the number of dimensions 21:34:20 -!- vert2 [vert2@newshell1.bshellz.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:34:43 vert2 [vert2@newshell1.bshellz.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:11 benny [~benny@i577A86B1.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 21:36:48 <_6502_> my code has (decf (aref col c) bit) where col is a fixed array of fixnum and bit is also a fixnum... is it still using generic subtraction ? 21:37:11 You might be able to find out by disassembling. 21:37:44 <_3b> it might need to deal with (- most-negative-fixnum most-negative-fixnum) 21:38:05 <_6502_> but the destination is still just a fixnum... 21:38:22 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 21:38:52 pnq [~nick@AC816CAF.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 21:39:01 <_3b> right, so storing the result of that there would be an error 21:39:26 <_3b> (aside from maybe the case of a larger upgraded element type) 21:39:27 nixfreak [d872c8b2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.216.114.200.178] has joined #lisp 21:40:06 <_3b> fixnum is not usually what you want for optimization though, aside from array indices 21:40:16 looking for a lib for multimedia specifically for a UI and video player 21:40:27 drunkk [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:40:39 -!- ArchMonkey [~ArchMonke@S0106001b63f2b998.ok.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: ArchMonkey] 21:40:40 so far the only thing I found so far was SDL 21:41:12 <_3b> if you know the range is small enough to fit in fixnum in all platforms, specify the real upper bounds, otherwise you need a different type anyway 21:41:56 <_3b> array indices are a special case, since they are always exactly fixnum sized 21:42:22 anvandare [~anvandare@78-21-52-207.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 21:42:33 <_6502_> in my case all elements are 0..511 indeed 21:42:48 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:43:15 *_6502_* just discovered it's not ok to macrolet decf 21:44:05 <_3b> yep, can't bind any CL functions/macros in function namespace 21:44:36 -!- taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:44:42 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 21:45:21 -!- lifechamp [~gary@108.164.23.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: lifechamp] 21:48:07 <_6502_> SB-KERNEL:TWO-ARG-- is general subtraction, right? 21:50:12 _6502_ pasted "sudoku" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/123184 21:51:23 <_6502_> sb-sprof tells me that 80% of the time is doing subtraction IIUC, i don't understand what part could generate it.. 21:51:55 define a type (integer 0 511) and use it instead of fixnum 21:52:02 <_6502_> also I don't understand why with "with-profiling" executes the code multiple times... 21:52:06 Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.253.71] has joined #lisp 21:52:11 i believe (the fixnum is not a nice solution either 21:52:11 -!- Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@1807ds2-noe.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:52:46 *_6502_* will go reading how to define a type 21:52:50 <_6502_> i never did before 21:53:17 Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@1807ds2-noe.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 21:53:18 <_3b> seems to be from floor 21:54:30 please correct me if im wrong, but i dont see the point in using mydecf myincf 21:54:33 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 21:55:55 are mcclim and cl-opengl mutually exclusive? do i need to mod the cl-opengl package and remove nickname :gl? 21:56:57 xan_ [~xan@94.Red-193-152-140.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:00 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-50-131-44-231.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:13 *_3b* expects the conflict is with clx not mcclim 21:57:40 -!- serichsen [~user@hmbg-4d069c9e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Good night!] 21:58:04 <_6502_> mcstart: i was chasing who was calling generic- and I suspected decf, so i replaced it with something that shouldn't do generic subtraction... 21:58:05 <_3b> removing the nickname from whicever of them you don't intend to use might fix it, depending on what else you load that depends on the nickname referring to a specific package 21:58:19 <_6502_> mcstar 21:58:56 it will use the faster code if you properly type your variables 21:59:21 (properly means, that the result will be of the same type) 21:59:30 <_3b> if you use slime, you might try slime-sprof, much easier to follow the call graph around that wau 21:59:34 <_3b> *way 21:59:44 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.205] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:00:06 _3b: do you have to add every function one by one that you want to profile? 22:00:17 -!- wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-50-131-44-231.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:00:36 <_3b> and (floor (/ a b)) -> (floor a b), and it returns the mod as well so you can save the extra call to mod 22:00:43 ChibaPet [~mason@c-68-58-147-105.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:00:45 i will try that. it just errs out on the load, but it looks like cl-opengl will need to be rewritten for the most part if i remove the :gl nickname. 22:00:52 <_3b> mcstar: nope 22:01:40 <_3b> pislocide: yeah, not completely sure it would work right with clx anyway 22:01:55 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-50-131-44-231.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:08 <_3b> you could try removing the nickname from one of them after it is loaded, with rename-=package 22:02:15 <_3b> or from both for that matter 22:02:33 taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:16 -!- pnq [~nick@AC816CAF.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:04:13 does anyone know of or have a wrapper for mplayer / mencoder ? 22:04:47 <_3b> _6502_: digit-char-p returns the numerical value when you pass it a digit character 22:06:32 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 22:06:43 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-27-85.iburst.co.za] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:06:51 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:07:08 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:08:44 <_3b> _6502_: are you using incf/decf to toggle bits? there are better ways to do that 22:09:33 <_6502_> i hate the syntax (boole boole-whatever ...) decf is going to be slow ??? 22:10:02 *_3b* meant logior/logand, or (setf ldb) 22:10:04 thanks for your input 22:10:18 <_3b> or if you don't care about portability, maybe (setf logbitp) 22:10:46 -!- ChibaPet [~mason@c-68-58-147-105.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:11:33 <_3b> you have to lie to the compiler or do extra work to make decf fast, and (setf ldb) seems more obvious what you are doing 22:12:28 <_3b> also, decf breaks if you try to turn off a bit that is already off, or turn one on that is already on 22:14:52 -!- drunkk [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:15:30 youguy [~youguy@240.pool85-56-66.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 22:15:42 <_6502_> i don't understand the ldb syntax... (ldb (byte 2 1) 10) => 1 22:15:43 drunkk [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:16:02 -!- srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 22:16:06 -!- taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:16:24 <_6502_> bit 2 of 10 is zero 22:16:33 <_3b> 2 bits, starting at bit 1 22:16:52 <_6502_> size/start? 22:17:12 <_3b> (byte size position) is how slime autodoc describes it in sbcl 22:17:24 -!- youguy [~youguy@240.pool85-56-66.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:17:31 *_3b* doesn't know is that is slime or sbcl figuring that out 22:18:08 tsanhwa [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has joined #lisp 22:18:09 <_3b> ah, seems to be a function, so probably sbcl 22:18:54 <_6502_> but i've already the bit value, not the bit number 22:19:51 <_3b> if you don't want to change that, you could use logand/logior 22:19:54 <_6502_> in C the code would be "row[r] &= ~bit;" 22:20:37 <_3b> right, (setf (aref... ) (logandc2 (aref ,,,) bit)), possibly wrapped up in a macro 22:20:39 <_6502_> even if i'd write even in C "row[r] -= bit" because it's going to generate better machine code (and i'm not going to turn off a bit that's already off) 22:21:37 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-176-129.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 22:22:21 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d0101d4.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:24:18 id like to mention that you can inline flet/labels functions too 22:24:25 a macro might be an overkill 22:24:46 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.218.164] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 22:25:09 <_3b> macro in this case was to modify a place, not for speed 22:25:30 <_3b> though since it is an array, you could pass the array and an index to modify to a function instead 22:29:05 taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:13 _6502_: I'll challenge the notion that sutracting will somehow generate better machine code than bitwise arithmetic. 22:30:20 At best, there won't be any difference. 22:30:58 <_6502_> pkhuong: there's no need to complement 'bit' 22:31:46 Then xor it out. 22:31:51 cnty [~cnty@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 22:32:15 <_3b> as far as i can tell most of your time is spent in floor and mod anyway :p 22:32:19 <_6502_> ok... xor is the same as dec 22:32:27 hello. I want to launch a process and read from it's stdout and write to it's stdin. what function or 3rd party library should I use? 22:32:32 Frankly, your performance model for C, [modern] architectures, and lisp are all broken. 22:32:57 And from my random sampling of #lisp, that frequently sends you off into useless wild chases. 22:33:12 <_6502_> pkhuong: pretty possible... i'm only an 1MHz 8 bit processor after all 22:33:17 <_3b> cnty: check your implementation docs for something like "run-program" 22:34:01 <_6502_> pkhuong: i was trying to write a sudoku solver, and then trying to learn how to profile it to speed it up. Why is this a useless wild chase? 22:34:48 _3b nothing portable across platforms? 22:35:02 -!- nixfreak [d872c8b2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.216.114.200.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:35:19 <_3b> cnty: probably is, not sure what though :/ 22:35:22 cnty: 22:35:39 great thanks 22:35:54 -!- drunkk [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:36:06 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 22:37:54 drunkk [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:39:53 _6502_: its probably a useless comment, but i dont see the meaning of the code from those operations, its not clear for me what the program does 22:39:57 <_6502_> _3b: i created a tabled version of blk, and still 90%+ of the time is spent on SB-KERNEL:TWO-ARG--, SB-KERNEL::INTEGER-/-INTEGER and SB-VM::ALLOC-SIGNED-BIGNUM-IN-EAX :-( 22:40:03 and i guess its not very "functional" 22:41:15 <_3b> _6502_ did you replace the other FLOOR/MOD calls? 22:41:51 <_6502_> hmmm... no 22:42:06 <_6502_> doh... 22:42:11 <_6502_> it's surely that... 22:42:32 <_3b> or at least make sure you specify the types you pass to them 22:42:43 you know, if you used bitwise arithmetic instead of subtraction, you might get decent code. 22:44:26 <_3b> also, inline those tiny functions, or at least declare types in them 22:44:52 That, or read and understand why declaring fixnum types everywhere doesn't solve all one's woes. 22:45:19 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 22:47:05 ok so I expected this to return output as string: (with-output-to-string (out) (external-program:run "ls" '() :output out)) 22:47:05 pkhuong: i was frustrated by similar problems for a couple of hours when i first faced this, for people coming from like c, is natural that integers just wrap over and such 22:47:05 -!- HG` [~HG@p5DC058EE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:47:13 -!- xcv [~xcv@hermes.logmenn.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:47:15 but instead I got: STRING: argument #1=# should be a string, a symbol or a character [Condition of type SIMPLE-TYPE-ERROR 22:47:17 mcstar: from people coming from the real world, it isn't. 22:48:05 what am I doing wrong? it says :output accepts nil t stream or path designator https://github.com/sellout/external-program/wiki/API 22:48:46 cnty: I don't know. What implementation are you using? Do you have a backtrace will that condition? 22:49:01 I'm using clisp 22:49:57 I can paste backtrace 22:50:18 cnty: what is external-program:run ? 22:50:37 pjb: it's a portability wrapper. 22:50:40 <_3b> doesn't look like clisp's run-program can do that, from clisp docs 22:50:54 I'm guessing it calls clisp's run-shell-command 22:51:10 <_3b> looks like it calls ext:run-program 22:51:35 I see. it says it supports clisp though 22:52:12 <_3b> "Not all functionality is available on all platforms." 22:52:57 does my line work in sbcl? if someone can check 22:53:01 don't mind changing implementation 22:53:23 cnty pasted "backtrace" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/123186 22:53:32 koning_robot [~user@50-208.ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #lisp 22:53:36 pkhuong: Do you have a package full of utilities you wrote 22:53:53 cnty: yes, you can see from the backtrace it calls run-program. 22:54:02 Quadrescence: no. I don't even have so many utilities. My code is very pedestrian, except that it smells like SBCL. 22:54:04 run-program doesn't TAKE a stream, it GIVES a stream! 22:54:08 pbj you're right 22:54:14 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.205] has joined #lisp 22:54:33 cnty: it probably works fine on SBCL. 22:54:49 btw I'm not running a program that just prints something and quits 22:55:25 I need to have a long session with a program, and read from it's stdout while writing to it's stdin 22:55:28 If you want to get the output of an external program, use EXT:MAKE-PIPE-INPUT-STREAM 22:55:36 can external-program do this on sbcl? 22:55:44 cnty: yes. 22:55:48 ok nice 22:56:10 cnty: you have to be careful, usually other implementations than clisp get things wrong. 22:56:11 cnty: but if you only need to read from its stdout, you don't need to pass a stream. 22:56:12 Notably sbcl. 22:56:32 What's &lexpr in a lambda list? It's used in the number functions, seems like &rest. 22:56:46 i need to both read from stdout and write to stdin 22:56:48 indeed, clisp's long-hand way of doing seems much more robust to me. 22:56:50 zort-: it's not standard. 22:56:57 cnty: then you just need to grab a stream. 22:57:05 clhs lambda-list-keywords 22:57:05 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_lambda.htm 22:57:24 <_3b> external-program:start with :output :stream should work on either 22:57:33 ok, I guess the makers of Clozure think I don't need to know about it. 22:57:56 -!- mcstar [~mcstar@adsl-89-132-51-232.monradsl.monornet.hu] has left #lisp 22:58:06 _6502_: Have you looked at the optimisation notes that are emitted during optimisation? Over here, it's very clear that there are issues with the calls to FLOOR and MOD and with (< n (first best)). In all cases, it's related to the fact that lists aren't typed in CL. Either declare the type of lists' elements as you extract them, or use something else (e.g. a typed vector). And then you can take care of the division in FLOOR. 22:59:29 also 22:59:32 clhs logcount 22:59:32 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_logcou.htm 23:00:28 <_3b> _6502_: also, don't turn off debug and safety... in sbcl you can get most of the speedup other ways, and still keep it capable of catching errors when a bug creeps in 23:01:03 youguy [~youguy@240.pool85-56-66.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 23:01:17 -!- youguy [~youguy@240.pool85-56-66.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Client Quit] 23:01:52 DelPuerto [~youguy@240.pool85-56-66.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 23:02:46 oh this might work even on clisp. I was wrong, I was suppose to pass :output :stream, not :output my-stream 23:04:33 The_third_man [~The_third@ram94-12-78-234-200-168.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:36 it works! 23:04:42 hi 23:05:05 _6502_ annotated #123184 "current version" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/123184#1 23:06:04 <_6502_> now there is no floor or division any more... reworked the interface to use single-indexing access 23:06:25 <_6502_> speed is much better, still i can make no sense of sb-sprof output 23:07:06 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.83.71.31] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 23:07:53 <_6502_> i also dropped best from being a list... now i'm using separate variables 23:09:35 _6502_: the type of best-avail isn't known. 23:10:05 <_6502_> i should probably iterate over tofill cons cells, to be able to avoid "remove" + "push" and just linking/unlinking the single cell 23:11:12 this one works perfectly on clisp too: (external-program:run "ls" '() :output :stream). I misunderstood what :output accepts 23:11:31 why are you using BOOLE? 23:12:05 <_6502_> pkhuong: declaring "best" variable got a bit faster 23:12:16 <_3b> inlining BITS seems to help a bit 23:12:24 _3b: or just using LOGCOUNT. 23:12:36 <_3b> yeah, that sounds better 23:12:57 *_3b* didn't look to see what it did, just that it was 27% of profile 23:13:08 (unsigned-byte 9) might be more clear than (integer 0 511). 23:13:53 -!- denebola [~denebola@S0106001966a61521.wp.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:14:10 ergo [~ergo@rrcs-67-78-118-45.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:15:05 <_6502_> much better 23:15:22 *_6502_* didn't know there was a LOGCOUNT function 23:16:06 chu_ [~chu@CPE-58-165-253-149.lns1.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 23:16:18 -!- fantazo_ [~fantazo@178-191-169-229.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:17:00 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:17:50 I'm not convinced that the search order is such a good idea... You can easily explore the same parts of the solution space multiple times. 23:19:39 ... the declaration for trow/tcol/tblk isn't as tight as it could be. 23:19:53 Evanescence [~chris@122.237.5.121] has joined #lisp 23:23:34 _6502_ annotated #123184 "more bad tricks..." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/123184#2 23:23:54 -!- koning_robot [~user@50-208.ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:24:34 <_6502_> pkhuong: i thought that looking first for "most locked" i'd search less because every move restricts other moves 23:24:57 <_6502_> pkhuong: it's what humans do when solving sudokus... first look for "forced" moves... 23:25:24 -!- drunkk [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:25:26 does anyone know if there's a library that wraps argv too to make access portable on various implementations? 23:25:45 by argv I mean command line arguments 23:26:27 -!- Joreji [~thomas@90-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:27:28 cnty: I wouldn't worry so much about portability if I were you. Port it when it needs to be ported. I think fare has something. 23:27:34 drunkk [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:28:06 perhaps i worry too much, but i plan on switching to sbcl later, but I find clisp easier to use now when learning 23:28:35 has a wrapper that punts to cl-launch when applicable. 23:29:20 There's also getopt and unix-options. 23:29:52 when do you find clisp easier to use? 23:30:47 _6502_: humans also use something like selection sort when sorting. 23:31:16 clisp's repl supports autocompletion 23:31:30 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 23:31:54 cnty: SBCL is mostly used in conjunction with slime. 23:32:12 <_6502_> pkhuong: yes... because it works great :-) (humans actually do sort of a radix sort but only starting from most significant bits... e.g. piling up documents by year) 23:32:15 and that combo gives you autocompletion? 23:32:24 cnty: much more than that 23:33:17 CrazyEddy [~horoscopy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 23:33:45 -!- DelPuerto [~youguy@240.pool85-56-66.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 23:36:09 -!- drunkk [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:38:37 denebola [~denebola@S0106001966a61521.wp.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:40:33 drunkk [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:43:47 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:44:01 -!- denebola [~denebola@S0106001966a61521.wp.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:45:46 -!- drunkk [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:47:54 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:49:16 -!- tsanhwa [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:51:21 cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:22 -!- sellout- [~Adium@98.158.124.99] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:51:27 sellout- [~Adium@98.158.124.99] has joined #lisp 23:51:30 -!- rosario [~rosario@77-64-171-36.dynamic.primacom.net] has quit [Quit: Bye.] 23:53:45 -!- ramus [~ramus@adsl-99-23-156-31.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:55:33 ramus [~ramus@99.23.128.50] has joined #lisp 23:56:52 <_6502_> why there is boole boole-and if there's also logand? 23:57:08 <_3b> you can pass the operation at runtime to boole 23:57:14 <_3b> (probably mostly history though) 23:57:17 *_6502_* found boole first and thought it was the only way to do bitwise operations... 23:57:50 <_6502_> committee power :-) 23:57:51 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 23:58:14 _3b: so you can pass the operation at runtime, because maclisp could implement that very nicely on its original platforms, and CL was meant to minimise the pain of porting maclisp programs, iirc. 23:59:09 _6502_ annotated #123184 "no more boole..." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/123184#3 23:59:29 <_6502_> 2am... sleeptime for me 23:59:43 <_6502_> thanks for tolerating me once again guys :-)