00:00:58 AFAICT, the only point of operator overloading is to make things look nice. For that, we have reader tricks. Otherwise, I don't see that anyone expect two libraries to independently overload + and work together correctly 00:02:02 CallToPower [~CallToPow@s15229144.onlinehome-server.info] has joined #lisp 00:02:45 For unary operators, it might be useful to provide a useful default, but, again, what has anyone done with sb-sequence so far? 00:04:29 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:04:53 pkhuong: Wrong. Look at C++! (oh wait...) 00:09:49 -!- SegFault1X [~mkbernard@VEROXITY.ipcolo1.SanFrancisco1.Level3.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 00:09:49 -!- chr` [~user@148.122.202.244] has quit [*.net *.split] 00:09:49 -!- pdo [~pdo@217.33.254.141] has quit [*.net *.split] 00:09:49 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-55-187.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 00:09:49 -!- incandenza [~incandenz@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 00:09:49 -!- naiv [~quassel@ARennes-652-1-4-177.w2-10.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [*.net *.split] 00:09:49 -!- quasisane [~sanep@c-76-24-80-97.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 00:09:49 -!- bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip70-189-66-194.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 00:09:50 -!- aperturefever [20164@ninthfloor.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 00:09:50 -!- gkeith [~gkeith@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 00:09:50 -!- mutewit [~mutew@c-68-48-11-23.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 00:09:50 -!- luis [~luis@nhop.r42.eu] has quit [*.net *.split] 00:09:50 -!- kjellkt [~kkgt@223.81-167-109.customer.lyse.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 00:09:50 -!- egn [~egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 00:09:50 -!- Borbus [borbus@borbus.kicks-ass.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 00:10:31 pcavs_ [~paul@c-76-118-176-40.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:12:53 cheier [~amedueces@c-76-107-19-58.hsd1.ms.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:32 SegFault1X [~mkbernard@VEROXITY.ipcolo1.SanFrancisco1.Level3.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:32 chr` [~user@148.122.202.244] has joined #lisp 00:13:32 pdo [~pdo@217.33.254.141] has joined #lisp 00:13:32 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-55-187.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 00:13:32 incandenza [~incandenz@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:32 naiv [~quassel@ARennes-652-1-4-177.w2-10.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:13:32 quasisane [~sanep@c-76-24-80-97.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:32 bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip70-189-66-194.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:32 aperturefever [20164@ninthfloor.org] has joined #lisp 00:13:32 mutewit [~mutew@c-68-48-11-23.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:32 gkeith [~gkeith@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 00:13:32 luis [~luis@nhop.r42.eu] has joined #lisp 00:13:32 kjellkt [~kkgt@223.81-167-109.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:32 egn [~egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 00:13:32 Borbus [borbus@borbus.kicks-ass.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:59 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:14:28 cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:14:57 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 00:15:47 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 00:16:00 youguy [~youguy@90.168.33.134] has joined #lisp 00:16:07 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216.239.45.19] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 00:16:45 kpreid [~kpreid@nat/google/x-nnwyrvweepoldgyc] has joined #lisp 00:20:01 why do most examples I see only use #'(lambda () ..) over (lambda() ..) ? 00:20:08 I see online* 00:20:33 as I understand even without #' it's suppose to work no? 00:20:34 rpr: because people are silly. 00:20:37 (it does in here) 00:20:44 pjb heh 00:20:52 rpr: indeed, in Common Lisp, lambda is defined as a macro that expands to (function (lambda ...)). 00:20:56 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:21:06 ah 00:21:25 rpr: however, in CLtL1, this wasn't the case. But there remain no CLtL1 implementation, they have all upgraded to ANSI Common Lisp. 00:22:28 dnolen [~davidnole@pool-68-161-137-73.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:22:47 -!- rpr [~rpr@76.73.16.26] has quit [Disconnected by services] 00:22:52 rpr- [~rpr@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 00:22:54 new study on the health effects of BPA (commonly found in hard plastics) - male mice exposed to bpa in the womb behaved like female mice when born http://www.latimes.com/health/boostershots/la-heb-male-mice-bpa-20110627,0,6522597.story 00:22:54 -!- rpr- is now known as rpr 00:23:29 Yep, that's why there's so many homosexuals nowadays. Polution. 00:24:04 this cohort of humans is the most poisoned generation ever 00:24:57 the epigenetic effects of thousands of now-ubiquitous and untested industrial pollutants are causing a generational shift in human biology 00:25:14 -!- youguy [~youguy@90.168.33.134] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 00:25:15 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 00:30:12 -!- littlebobby [~bob@unaffiliated/littlebobby] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:32:10 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.1.251] has joined #lisp 00:33:37 -!- srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:36:33 is push + reverse at the end better than appending every element to a list? 00:36:53 sometimes. 00:37:51 not always? 00:38:14 There are tens of ways of appending elements to a list, so... 00:38:18 push is O(1), append is O(n), you have to iterate to end every single time 00:38:46 Do you mean prepend or append? 00:38:48 push prepends. 00:39:18 cesarbp [~cbp@189.247.164.87] has joined #lisp 00:39:24 i mean prepend (push) vs append 00:39:35 or rather push + reverse at the end, vs append each time 00:39:56 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 00:40:08 (append old-list new-elements) is faster. 00:40:26 If you do it only once. 00:40:32 chargalargabarg 00:40:36 Why do you want to append the elements one by one? 00:41:07 nevermind 00:44:36 StrmSrfr [~user@208.72.159.205] has joined #lisp 00:44:57 good morning people in a timezone where it's morning 00:54:31 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.197.44] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:57:06 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 00:58:10 -!- elliottcable is now known as elliottcable|2 00:58:19 -!- elliottcable|2 is now known as elliottcable 00:58:26 push + reverse to a list is O(n)? and append every elemetn to a list would be O(n^2)? is this correct? 00:58:43 push + reverse at the end 00:58:59 imho, it depends on where you want to insert your element 00:59:23 I want to append it, but I'm trying to figure out if big-O wise push and then reversing at the end is more efficient 00:59:49 the complexity of revese isn't specified, I think 00:59:54 I hope that append an element to the end of a list is O(1) 01:00:21 daedric it can't be. a list is a pair of cons cells, and no tail pointer 01:00:22 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:00:30 the most important factor is probably whether you want to modify the original list or not 01:00:35 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 01:00:35 rpr: you mean (reverse (push x (reverse list))) 01:00:50 no, he means building up a list. 01:01:01 and then reversing 01:01:03 rpr: right. Another way is to keep a pointer to the last cons in the list. 01:01:04 à la collect 01:01:19 yet another (usually the best, ime) is to collect into a vector, not a list. 01:01:23 rpr: in the native data structure I'm pretty sure that there is some pointer to access to the last element 01:01:35 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-161-46.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:01:37 daedric: no. 01:01:42 oO 01:01:55 (list 1 2 3) is just (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 nil))) 01:01:58 daedric: CL doesn't have lists, only pairs. 01:02:02 push reverse is somewhat idiomatic so it's more likely the compiler would somehow optimize it? 01:02:02 ok 01:02:13 daedric: any of the pair making up that list can be mutated at any time. 01:02:17 StrmSrfr: no. 01:02:23 StrmSrfr: there's nothing to optimise. 01:02:23 pkhuong: no? 01:02:45 there might be; you might need a rather large window 01:02:49 so was I correct that push then reverse is O(n), while appending without keeping tail pointer is O(n^2) ? 01:03:04 ? 01:03:04 And I'm pretty sure most LOOP expand COLLECT into a pointer to the last cons and rplacd. 01:03:09 rpr: yes. 01:03:24 StrmSrfr: a window of what? 01:03:25 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-176-145.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:03:39 the window the optimizer views 01:03:54 maybe lisp compilers don't work that way 01:04:08 StrmSrfr: and what is there to optimise? 01:05:06 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 01:05:49 well, instead of creating a new list and reversing it you could just store the new elements somewhere and then append to the old list, perhaps? But I suppose the nondestructive semantics of revers would prevent that 01:06:31 unless you could prove the original list isn't accessible 01:06:54 you could keep a pointer to tail. or use an array. 01:08:05 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 01:08:10 StrmSrfr: that's at best equivalent to keeping a tail pointer, and it's far from obvious that one is better than the other. A lot of complexity for something that could be achieved by using a macro that does what you want. 01:09:00 for the compiler-writer, improving existing code is probably better than telling them to use a custom macro? 01:09:21 in any case, how many items are we planning to add to this list? 1? 10? 100000? 01:10:15 -!- pnq [~nick@AC810739.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:10:22 StrmSrfr: disagree. That's not the sort of optimisation I want a compiler to perform, especially when the payoff is so low. 01:10:52 -!- tauntaun_away is now known as tauntaun 01:11:52 pkhuong: I could be totally wrong, but couldn't the payoff be high if we're adding a lot of elements and we can guarantee the original list won't be accessible afterwards (or during)? 01:12:59 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c711b3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 01:13:10 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c711b3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:13:10 granted, I'm probably totally wrong :) 01:13:12 StrmSrfr: measure it, you'll see. 01:13:42 If it matters, it's *easier* to use a collect macro than to push/nreverse. 01:13:51 if it really matters, you shouldn't be using lists in the first place. 01:14:39 with naïve push you're consing every push? 01:14:44 and? 01:15:18 back in my day that was considered expensive 01:15:26 In your C days, perhaps. 01:15:49 touché :) 01:16:47 what collect macro? 01:16:48 frankly I'm not interested enough to time it; I'll have faith that people smarter than I have already done so 01:18:25 StrmSrfr: it might matter. I don't see that going in a compiler any time soon. The amount of analyses needed to handle anything but the most trivial case, when the idiomatic way to do it is what macros anyway, makes pretty much any potential gain ridiculous. 01:18:46 If it does matter, fix the macros. 01:19:32 rpr: it's like once-only, it exists, in a myriad versions all alike. There's one in sbcl, in src/code/early-extensions.lisp:293. 01:20:06 there's one in alexandria library too 01:21:25 actually no, in cl-utilties 01:21:33 are macros the idiomatic way to do it? 01:22:04 Sure is more clear. 01:22:15 I know lisp people are generally smart enough to say "this is too slow for my dataset; I should use a macro to speed this up" 01:24:04 Rewriting push/nreverse in the compiler makes as much sense to me as rewriting matrix multiplication triple-loops. If it matters, there's no reason not to do it right (use a dedicated macro or even not a list, or call to BLAS): it's less code and more clear. 01:24:49 it's more a matter of convinience for me. (with-collectors (c) (c 10) (c 20)) => (10 20) 01:25:43 you can have more than one collector too, then with-collectors returns (values c1 c2 ..) 01:25:49 joekarma_ [~joekarma@S01060026f3e2a647.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:15 kennyd: right. Using a collect macro leads to better code, and you can centralise all the ugly details there. 01:27:13 couldn't library writers be using push/nreverse? 01:27:22 StrmSrfr: whatever happens to work best. 01:27:57 your BLAS might also implement DGEMM as a naive triple loop. If it does, complain to your BLAS vendor, not your compiler vendor. 01:29:01 tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:29:12 -!- tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:30:33 StrmSrfr I think what they are trying to say is that macro is used there to make a cleaner code, not for efficiency reasons 01:30:41 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@nat/google/x-nnwyrvweepoldgyc] has quit [Quit: Offline] 01:30:45 rpr: why not both? 01:31:26 Again, that's all under the hypothesis that push/nreverse and tail pointer/rplacad matter. 01:31:28 well you don't need a macro to do whatever it is doing by hand 01:32:15 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:32:26 rpr: why wouldn't you, though? 01:32:40 you would, for clarity 01:32:51 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.131.196] has joined #lisp 01:32:59 oh dear now mah sibicil is takin' all ma resources 01:33:06 what's the syntax like for two collectors btw? 01:33:11 if it's both more clear and a better implementation, then, really, if the performance of accumulating data into lists matter to you, I don't see why you wouldn't use a macro that does just that. 01:33:50 rpr: depends on the macro. Usually, you just add a collector to the binding list. 01:33:55 I agree I would 01:34:24 for cl-utilities one it's (with-collectors (c1 c2) (c1 10) (c2 20)) => (values (10) (20)) 01:38:11 Again, I just don't see when it would be useful to put this logic in the compiler. We have to assume that push/nreverse or tail-pointer/rplacd is significantly worse than some ideal version, and that it makes sense for the user to write bad code long hand rather than use a macro that hides all the detail behind a neat syntax. Worse, we also have to assume that the performance of accumulating into lists matters, but not enough so that it makes sense t 01:39:40 anyone know of an easy way to dump a full REPL transcript to a file? 01:39:49 joekarma_: dribble. 01:39:52 oh, I exhausted my heap 01:40:05 pkhuong, thanks, I'll look into it 01:40:10 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 01:40:24 or just copy/paste. 01:41:23 ...holy shit I feel stupid now 01:41:29 C-x C-s works 01:41:31 sorry guys 01:42:09 IIRC, that messes with the buffer's mode. 01:42:43 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@pool-68-161-137-73.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 01:42:47 so it does 01:42:59 shouldn't it not? 01:43:39 and what I'm *really* looking for is, with the minimum necessary amount of text processing, a transcript only of what *I* typed, not what the REPL echoed 01:44:06 ask the #emacs people. You just switched from a file-less buffer to a file-ful (with *extension* at that) buffer. 01:44:59 figured there'd be some elisp hackery required... thanks 01:45:17 there's .slime-history.eld but it doesn't seem to be updated on the fly. 01:47:31 sabalaba [~sabalaba@user-64-9-238-22.googlewifi.com] has joined #lisp 01:47:56 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.131.196] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:48:25 -!- fourier [~user@h-30-249.A176.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:48:59 ok so I tested it just for fun. pushing to a list then reversing is 8 times faster than appending each element. and with-collectors is 10 times faster than pushing+reversing. (it keeps a tail pointer) 01:49:22 I tested it on 10000 elements 01:50:05 only once? Are you sure you didn't get an unlucky GC? 01:50:28 which part you found surprising? 01:50:31 10k elements is very few. Are you looking at times in seconds, or something more precise, like cycles? 01:51:28 I am using (time. difference is about the same for real time and run time. with 100 000 elements pushing then reversing takes 2.4 seconds. with with-collectors 0.2 seconds. appending took longer than I felt waiting 01:51:30 One repetition? or how many? If multiple repetitions, mean, median, or a quantile? 01:51:33 using clisp, non-compiled btw 01:51:43 one repetition 01:51:55 but repeating several times manually, numbers are consistent 01:51:57 which means pretty much nothing for any other implementation, including compiled clisp. 01:52:03 -!- foocraft [~ewanas@89.211.230.200] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:52:07 possibly 01:53:16 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-218-70.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:53:47 -!- pcavs_ [~paul@c-76-118-176-40.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:54:28 The only conclusion you can extract from the above is that the execution of interpreted clisp is extremely slow. 01:54:53 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-98-113-194-183.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:38 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:57:34 speaking of fun 01:59:39 bleh 02:00:05 I think I've had enough "fun" 02:00:22 -!- xan_ [~xan@94.Red-193-152-140.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:01:09 -!- SegFault1X [~mkbernard@VEROXITY.ipcolo1.SanFrancisco1.Level3.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:01:45 -!- SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@VEROXITY.ipcolo1.SanFrancisco1.Level3.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:04:05 ok I've compiled the function it now. 100 000 elements are done in 0.015 seconds with both push+reverse and with-collectors. append is still running (started it about half a minute ago :) ) 02:04:13 s/it// 02:05:49 rpr: that sounds more reasonable. 02:05:58 yeah 02:06:29 append is still at it lol 02:07:02 Of course, it's expected to be on the order of 100k times slower than either of the first two options. 02:08:10 yeah of course, 100K * 100K 02:08:59 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 02:09:24 felideon [~felideon@adsl-184-32-46-62.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:36 btw I must have done something wrong before, it wasn't that slow interpreted. 0.095 seconds for pushing 100K elements then reversing 02:14:24 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-218-70.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:14:41 but sbcl blows it out of the water. much faster even interpreted than clisp compiled 02:15:10 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:15:10 anyway time to hit the bed. night 02:15:16 -!- rpr [~rpr@76.73.16.26] has quit [Quit: .] 02:16:12 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:16:43 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 02:17:06 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 02:20:53 zardoz [~5d8a8451@ns1.smartcall.bg] has joined #lisp 02:20:58 hello 02:21:20 rpg: does sbcl interpret? 02:21:29 pcavs [~paul@c-76-118-176-40.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:21:30 I thought it always compiled 02:21:39 I thought so as well 02:22:32 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 02:23:13 Axioplase_: there's an interpreter, but it's not enabled by default. 02:23:23 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-98-113-194-183.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:23:34 what scheme compiler do you recommend for OS X? 02:23:40 zardoz: gambit-c 02:23:40 ask #scheme. 02:23:55 Axioplase_: right (: 02:24:06 okay. isn't scheme a lisp though? just curious 02:24:15 zardoz: it is *a* lisp, yes 02:24:37 meaning one of the lisps? 02:24:37 zardoz: this channel is for common lisp. 02:24:46 But different enough from CL to have it's own channel. 02:24:57 ok 02:25:45 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-182-44.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:28 when when you do eval in sbcl how does it work? if interpeter is disabled by deafult 02:26:40 Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.197.44] has joined #lisp 02:26:49 kennyd: it compiles a function that contains the form to evaluate and calls it. 02:26:49 kennyd: it compiles in memory, doesn't it? 02:28:09 isn't that less efficient than interpreting a form? 02:28:22 if called once 02:28:24 depends on the form. 02:28:35 true 02:28:36 Has that bugged you once so far? 02:28:45 not really 02:28:58 then, it's not sufficiently less efficient to matter. 02:29:13 and when it does matter, you can just enable the interpreter. 02:29:59 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A1FE4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:30:10 nannto__ [~nanto@pee5b70.tokyff01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:31:02 there's also some logic to handle really simple (and common) toplevel forms, like SETQ, or function calls. So, between these (that are fast pathed) and things like defun that I usually prefer to have compiled anyway, there isn't a lot of common cases left. 02:31:15 -!- nannto [~nanto@pee5b70.tokyff01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:31:51 I see 02:33:11 srid [~srid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:11 -!- srid [~srid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [Changing host] 02:33:11 srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has joined #lisp 02:33:25 -!- srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has quit [Client Quit] 02:33:43 symbole [~user@ool-4a5a4bdd.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:52 srid [~srid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:52 -!- srid [~srid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [Changing host] 02:33:52 srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has joined #lisp 02:33:54 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.197.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:33:57 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:35:06 how does one decide between CL and scheme? what are the pros and cons of each? 02:36:22 zardoz: really, you want to choose between scheme implementations and CL implementations. Mostly, you just choose and go with it. You can easily spend more time waffling between the two than just coding in either. 02:37:55 Try and find someone who can help you get started, or if that doesn't help you decide, choose a reasonable first project and try and find out which implementation will support that effort best. You can also flip a coin. 02:40:07 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 02:40:41 zardoz: get things done. That's the only way to decide. 02:40:51 -!- chu_ [~chu@CPE-58-165-253-149.lns1.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:42:38 phrontist [~bjorn@pool-173-79-123-137.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:42:51 While most CL implementations are similar, Scheme implementations vary a lot in what they provide. If you want to try Scheme, you'll want an implementation with a good C interface and/or some libraries. Gambit-C, Racket and Chez are my suggestion. To try CL, any would probably do the job, and "quicklisp" will provide you with many extra libraries for getting things done. 02:43:21 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-218-70.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:43:44 Take a small project, write in in both languages, and see which one feels better for you to write code in / reason with. 02:43:56 which one would you say is more portable cross platform? 02:44:50 cross-implementation it seems to be CL from what you say? 02:45:26 and yeah i'll try both and then decide 02:50:08 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-182-44.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:50:14 zardoz: check the various implementations' homepages. Some CL/Scheme implementations run only on some platform, some others compile to portable C, etc 02:50:26 Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.197.44] has joined #lisp 02:50:31 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-182-44.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:51:42 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 02:52:39 -!- derekv [~derekv@c-68-62-78-203.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:52:41 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@user-64-9-238-22.googlewifi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:00:12 -!- Soulman [~knute@101.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:04:11 -!- el-maxo_ [~max@p5DE8E924.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:07:05 asynchrony [~user@adsl-184-42-13-228.dab.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:10:43 -!- pcavs [~paul@c-76-118-176-40.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:12:56 el-maxo [~max@p5DE8F45F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:59 pcavs_ [~paul@c-76-118-176-40.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:40 -!- zmv [~daniel@c95315ce.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:17:36 -!- pcavs_ [~paul@c-76-118-176-40.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:19:45 briareus [~briareus@unaffiliated/briareus] has joined #lisp 03:29:20 -!- astoon [~chatzilla@nat105-249-205-109.tvoe.tv] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:29:51 -!- joker` [~joker@p549187BF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:30:56 rpg_ [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 03:31:51 what does it take to get a library onto the topic? 03:32:21 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-kzgfziuivtibntlc] has joined #lisp 03:33:05 -!- felideon [~felideon@adsl-184-32-46-62.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:33:21 -!- cheier [~amedueces@c-76-107-19-58.hsd1.ms.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:34:41 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:36:18 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-98-210-208-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 03:36:55 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.65.214.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:37:45 cmm [~cmm@109.65.214.78] has joined #lisp 03:40:26 realitygrill [~realitygr@c-98-210-208-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:09 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:49:15 rpg_: fame. 03:49:58 We had a couple of exciting days getting bug fixen into CL-JSON.... But perhaps not so newsworthy.... 03:51:54 rpg_: it's not the excitement of the developer of the library that counts, but the ecitement of the users of the library. 03:52:36 rpg_: from the developer of the library, you can always write a usenet article or a blog page. 03:52:42 pjb: FWIW, I'm a user, not a developer..... 03:53:21 Submission of a cargo-culted patch does not a developer make! ;-) 03:55:55 pcavs_ [~paul@c-76-118-176-40.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:57:52 derekv [~derekv@c-68-62-78-203.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:59:01 I suppose we'll just have to take this as my expression of excitement.... 04:03:06 kushal [~kdas@114.143.161.120] has joined #lisp 04:03:06 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.161.120] has quit [Changing host] 04:03:06 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 04:03:37 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:04:08 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 04:06:13 youguy 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[~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:14:33 good morning 06:16:03 hi 06:18:01 Morning 06:21:58 -!- kpal [eart0186@raven.linux.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:22:21 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:24:50 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 06:25:24 hello lispers 06:26:56 littlebobby [~bob@unaffiliated/littlebobby] has joined #lisp 06:27:04 youguy [~youguy@212.Red-79-156-218.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 06:29:24 -!- BrianRice [~water@174-31-157-30.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: BrianRice] 06:33:01 hi 06:34:40 cheier [~amedueces@c-76-107-19-58.hsd1.ms.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:39:34 chu_ [~chu@58.165.253.149] has joined #lisp 06:42:13 is it possible to make sbcl leave file with pid somewhere, so it can be easily killed afterwards? 06:42:33 qebab [finnrobi@lynx.stud.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 06:43:09 -!- qebab is now known as finnrobi 06:44:03 freiksenet: you can write a program in SBCL that does that. sb-daemon might have what you need. 06:44:51 ok, I'll take a look 06:46:39 BrianRice [~water@174-31-157-30.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 06:48:07 freiksenet: pidof may also be useful, for finding the pid of a running sbcl. Of course, that pretty much assumes you'll only have one of them at a time, or that the correct one will be easily found by grepping the result. 06:49:03 thing is that we have many sbcls runnin 06:49:07 or rather we might have 06:49:10 at some particular moment 06:49:29 and daemonizing is not so good as I would like to keep a repl that I can screen to 06:49:53 Ah, I see. pidof probably won't help much then, no. 06:50:05 there is (sb-posix:getpid) it seems 06:50:11 seems to be what I need 06:52:39 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@80-218-247-218.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:53:13 -!- macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.A328.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:57:23 ch077179 [~urs@f052162034.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 06:57:29 urs_ [~urs@f052162034.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 06:59:23 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:59:56 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-132-188-166.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 06:59:57 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-132-188-166.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 06:59:57 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 07:01:43 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 07:03:10 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 07:04:00 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-dnpucaxwcjhvhosp] has joined #lisp 07:06:18 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:08:08 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 07:09:00 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:7a2b:cbff:fed0:c11c] has joined #lisp 07:09:00 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:7a2b:cbff:fed0:c11c] has quit [Changing host] 07:09:00 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 07:09:00 -!- urs_ [~urs@f052162034.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 07:10:24 I don't know where to find this in the spec: I receive a set of variables through (defun foo (&rest vars &key variable &allow-other-keys) ...) am I allowed to setf the vars variable, or is that behavior undefined? 07:11:03 you can do (setf vars ...) - that just changes what the name points to. 07:11:25 you could even do (setf (car vars) ...) - but that would be visible by the caller, and no longer functional programming. 07:12:57 -!- cesarbp [~cbp@189.247.164.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:12:59 <_3b> modifying an &rest list is nonconforming 07:13:03 <_3b> clhs apply 07:13:03 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apply.htm 07:13:12 great, thanks 07:13:17 <_3b> you can do whatever you want to bindings though 07:13:58 _3b: I knew I wasn't allowed to change it, I didn't quite remember where I read it and what the limitations were 07:14:05 <_3b> hmm, maybe it is only nonconforming if you modify the cdrs... bad idea either way though 07:14:09 but I read it in the link you just gave me 07:14:19 I needn't modify them 07:14:45 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-104.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:17:58 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-55-187.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:18:41 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 07:19:52 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-98-210-208-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 07:20:32 e-user [~e-user@nat/nokia/x-xukdrfglaqaetfot] has joined #lisp 07:21:34 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-17-237.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:22:49 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 07:25:20 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 07:27:01 jmbr [~jmbr@curio.mat.ucm.es] has joined #lisp 07:31:19 aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:31:57 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:34:32 I am very happy to see that Cliki spam attempts last week were down /significantly/ from the week before. 07:35:03 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.108.69] has joined #lisp 07:35:58 hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 07:36:37 c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-hlcudvuocpwlqudp] has joined #lisp 07:37:42 Penten [~user@114.255.149.182] has joined #lisp 07:40:28 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-brvydtnapkuybafw] has joined #lisp 07:40:28 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-brvydtnapkuybafw] has quit [Changing host] 07:40:28 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 07:45:09 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-177-93.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:46:07 pinterface: Hmm. I remember reading something on planetlisp about some lisp based anti spam measure... 07:46:15 For that exact thing. 07:46:39 -!- TA1AET [~eren@unaffiliated/eren] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 07:48:25 Eataix [~Eataix@113.83.70.75] has joined #lisp 07:48:42 jsoft: Recently? 07:49:00 pinterface: hmm. Not in the last week, no. 07:50:13 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-207-189.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:50:27 Actually no, was not for a cliki, sorry. 07:50:32 http://xach.livejournal.com/289652.html <-- this was it 07:51:10 Ah, okay. 07:52:38 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:53:59 I've been running a spam-reverting bot for the past two weeks that periodically checks cliki for updates and reverts the spam. Hopefully that's deterring the serial spammers at least, if not the drive-by ones. 07:54:23 -!- sword [~sword@c-76-115-88-63.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:54:54 Not as good as stopping it before it gets on to cliki, but it sure beats manually reverting! 07:56:37 pinterface: yes, it would be nice to return a screen upon cliking on "Save": Sorry, your modification looks like spam, try again! 07:59:02 -!- Eataix [~Eataix@113.83.70.75] has quit [] 07:59:15 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-58-169.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:59:18 -!- thunk [~user@unaffiliated/thunk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:01:10 -!- johanbev [~johanbev@138.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:01:16 johanbev [~johanbev@138.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:01:37 Indeed. And some of the spammers are nice enough to make the spam really easy to detect by adding rel=follow, rel=dofollow, or style=text-decoration:none; to their links. 08:02:14 wae [~ewanas@89.211.245.3] has joined #lisp 08:04:42 -!- ch077179 [~urs@f052162034.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:06:57 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:07:21 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:08:12 dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:16:57 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755788.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:20:47 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 08:22:49 is theree a formule that approximates ((10 . 80) (10 . 50) (10 . 42) (10 . 40) (10 .5)) to a curve ? 08:23:05 *there 08:23:11 *formula 08:23:37 kiuma: several. 08:24:01 I need just one, I have to create a funnel chart 08:24:12 lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 08:24:22 polynom interpolation 08:24:55 thanks 08:25:00 that would be P(X) = 10, in your case :) 08:26:32 polynomial interpolation doesn't work too well when there are very many points, though. 08:27:43 Then, it's time for genetic algorithms \o/ 08:28:23 some sort of spline might be better suited... or just a piece-wise linear interpolation, if it doesn't have to be smooth. 08:28:34 Axioplase_: noo, never ;) 08:28:40 I need a curve that is only convex 08:29:00 is interpolation for this ? 08:29:34 interpolation is for fitting a (family of) formula to a series of point. 08:30:24 kiuma: you may just want splines, yes. 08:30:37 ok 08:38:27 -!- sacho [~sacho@90.154.193.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:40:40 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-132-81.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:40:53 -!- wae [~ewanas@89.211.245.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:41:01 kennyd_ [~kennyd@93-141-32-33.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 08:41:20 kiuma: the last element is a proper list of two elements, not a dotted list. 08:41:28 kiuma: did you mean (10 . 5) ? 08:41:32 yes 08:41:34 -!- lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:41:51 x=10 would approximate it. They're all on the same x... 08:42:06 Or does the order matter? 08:42:50 If the order matters, what's the t? 08:43:44 from the gratest to the smallest since I have to write a funnel chart like this: http://www.clearbrick.com/blog/uploaded_images/Customer-Funnel-781565.jpg 08:45:16 kiuma: well, the curve doesn't need to be correlated to the data, only to be pretty, does it? 08:45:30 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:45:39 it does have to be pretty 08:46:12 not very precise, only a weak approximation 08:46:20 I would just use a predetermined curve, possibly parameterized by the height. 08:47:01 what about "sqrt"? 08:47:01 lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 08:47:08 so I think I need only three points, right ? but then how to choose the middle one ? 08:47:11 wae [~ewanas@89.211.245.3] has joined #lisp 08:47:13 It's a nice curve that looks like what you need! 08:47:15 Well, it looks more like an exponential in the example. 08:47:34 depends on the orientation :) 08:47:39 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.108.69] has joined #lisp 08:47:42 :) 08:47:56 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.108.69] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:48:00 Guthur [c0c1748e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.193.116.142] has joined #lisp 08:48:02 my math is veeeery rusty, over 25 yrs ago 08:48:34 kiuma: but yes, exponential. And the flatter the curve you want, the smaller the interval you use. 08:49:09 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 08:50:17 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 08:50:27 the interval [exp(-4), exp(0)] would already give quite good results I guess 08:50:36 -!- foocraft [~ewanas@89.211.245.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:52:22 -!- alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:53:09 kiuma: you could play with: 08:53:20 http://paste.lisp.org/display/122987 08:53:27 -!- wae [~ewanas@89.211.245.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:53:37 pjb, thank you very much 08:53:59 alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #lisp 08:54:51 kiuma: collect (mapcar (lambda (y) (cons x y)) (+/- ...)) ; to collect coordinates. 08:55:39 wae [~ewanas@178.152.126.101] has joined #lisp 08:55:44 Argh! I guess I made a mistake with the axis, let me see. 08:57:36 Try: http://paste.lisp.org/display/122987#1 08:58:00 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.108.69] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:58:09 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.108.69] has joined #lisp 09:01:03 pjb, thanks! let's vecto now :) 09:01:06 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 09:02:00 kiuma: now of course, once you've found the parameters you want, you may compute an Bézier curve approximation for use with vectorial graphics. 09:02:19 ok 09:03:14 foocraft [~ewanas@178.152.126.101] has joined #lisp 09:03:37 -!- wae [~ewanas@178.152.126.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:04:14 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755788.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:05:13 DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has joined #lisp 09:06:51 -!- foocraft [~ewanas@178.152.126.101] has quit [Client Quit] 09:07:10 Skitter [~Skitter@bzq-82-81-229-127.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 09:08:52 kiuma: Several best fitting, including for exponential: http://https://ece.uwaterloo.ca/~dwharder/Maplesque/Bezier/ 09:09:21 404 09:09:32 kiuma: oops. Several best fitting, including for exponential: https://ece.uwaterloo.ca/~dwharder/Maplesque/Bezier/ 09:10:35 *kiuma* is testing :) 09:11:18 -!- youguy [~youguy@212.Red-79-156-218.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:14:27 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-250-59.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:18:34 sword [~sword@c-76-115-88-63.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:20:16 youguy [~youguy@134.Red-81-44-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:20:24 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 09:24:48 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 09:26:20 Joreji [~thomas@90-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 09:26:59 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-84-83.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:30:16 -!- deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:30:55 -!- youguy [~youguy@134.Red-81-44-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:34:21 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:38:51 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 09:39:00 youguy [~youguy@212.Red-79-156-218.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:39:55 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:42:12 zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 09:42:21 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:44:12 -!- KDr2 [~KDr2@123.112.78.219] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:45:03 -!- pinterface [~pinterfac@173-20-55-85.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:47:36 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 09:51:12 -!- hba [~hba@189.130.166.233] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:53:23 -!- cheier [~amedueces@c-76-107-19-58.hsd1.ms.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:53:57 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.1.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:54:40 razieliyo [~user@unaffiliated/razieliyo] has joined #lisp 09:54:45 buenos dias por la mañana 09:57:07 hasta la banana. 09:58:26 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 10:00:02 -!- youguy [~youguy@212.Red-79-156-218.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:02:25 youguy [~youguy@212.Red-79-156-218.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:06:05 Nieza mañana. 10:08:19 -!- schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:08:27 schmrkc [~marcus@c83-254-205-42.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:08:28 -!- schmrkc [~marcus@c83-254-205-42.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Changing host] 10:08:28 schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 10:08:36 jaka manana? 10:09:10 Nieza. 10:09:23 pinterface [~pinterfac@173-20-55-85.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 10:10:02 -!- youguy [~youguy@212.Red-79-156-218.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:10:37 rstandy [~rastandy@net-2-32-237-189.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #lisp 10:10:45 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.65.214.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:11:37 cmm [~cmm@109.65.214.78] has joined #lisp 10:17:16 youguy [~youguy@212.Red-79-156-218.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:20:30 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 10:21:54 mstevens [~mstevens@ceres.etla.org] has joined #lisp 10:21:54 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@ceres.etla.org] has quit [Changing host] 10:21:54 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 10:22:28 serichsen [~user@hmbg-5f760a8b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:22:31 Hello! 10:22:44 -!- Penten [~user@114.255.149.182] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:22:56 hello serichsen 10:24:01 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:25:09 xan_ [~xan@94.Red-193-152-140.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:27:59 hmhm, are there any typical reasons why a core would have some memory faults inside? running same things but without saving a core at one point works alright 10:28:06 sbcl 10:28:18 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 10:28:29 freiksenet: how old is your SBCL? 10:29:17 1.0.37 10:29:33 we have no problems with other cores 10:29:50 but this particular one seems to always end up corrupted 10:30:34 it used to be that we'd write protect even unboxed pages when restoring cores, so passing unboxed vectors to syscalls could fail after a core save 10:30:58 is there a workaround? 10:31:04 I can't tell how it's failing from your description, but consider an upgrade. 10:31:22 it fails when ffi is used 10:31:32 1.0.37 is more than a year old. 10:31:42 I know. we have a very long upgrade cycle 10:32:06 otherwise, make sure you're not keeping pointers to the C heap across core saves 10:32:16 that's not going to work (only the lisp heap is saved in cores). 10:32:27 ok, I'll check that. 10:32:33 Again, I really don't have enough information to help. 10:33:03 Some code, ideally minimal, and the exact error, along with a backtrace is usually useful. 10:34:56 https://gist.github.com/b9d3b5afe8af5d15aa81 well that's the only thing. and the code before the core writes three (very) big hashtables and code after loading a core starts hunchentoot and it crashed when it tries to connect to mysql 10:35:32 The traditional wisdom as we are a rather small group is to use the latest, the SVN version and report errors on that. There is not enough people to support older versions. 10:35:33 just am oment, I'll get hunchentoot backtrace 10:37:01 Younder: if that's indeed a bug in SBCL then it's one thing. it might be completely unrelated 10:37:03 As xach will undoubtedly inform you there is a easy way to do that. 10:37:11 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:37:32 we have very fragile code base and real users, we can't upgrade versions fast. 10:37:37 pkhuong: https://gist.github.com/ccb7fe075a8e52a3d237 10:37:52 silenius [~silenus@p4FC23D7B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:38:26 Yuuhi [benni@p5483DD5A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:38:33 pkhuong: do you think it's indeed caused by those unboxed vectors problem? 10:38:38 unlikely 10:38:41 clsql binds a foreign library for mysql, right? Are you keeping any handle to mysql stuff across core saves? 10:39:09 -!- Rughalt_Work [~opera@095160126081.warszawa.vectranet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:39:12 one way to tell would be to upgrade and bisect, if a fresher version works. 10:39:32 ok, I'll try that and look if we didn't close mysql somewhere 10:40:05 maybe in a connection pool. 10:40:44 strange that this happened, as I remember I tried isolating almost same part to the core before and it started fine then 10:41:38 You are manually managing a thead pool? 10:42:19 we are not. but what if cl-sql doesn't clean up after itself. or we forgot to close connection somewhere. 10:44:17 you might try and move all of the code that connects to mysql to run in the loaded core, instead of before saving. 10:44:20 Ah, you need a debugging tol 10:44:23 tool 10:44:25 mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 10:44:26 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has quit [Changing host] 10:44:26 mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has joined #lisp 10:45:18 pkhuong: unfortunately populating those 3 hashtables requires mysql too 10:45:31 -!- workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:45:34 Ahh, valgring should be able to tell you what resources were allocated by the OS 10:45:39 I will check connected databases before dumping the core to see if there are problems 10:45:48 Valgrind 10:46:06 To the program 10:46:31 Younder: that sounds like an overkill 10:46:47 pkhuong: thanks for the help! 10:47:47 freiksenet: I really don't know clsql enough to help. 10:49:34 anyone know where to download ucl-glorp, an ORM for Common Lisp? 10:49:48 I've found only a paper about it 10:50:54 daniel__ [~daniel@p5B32660B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:52:25 -!- daniel__1 [~daniel@p5B3266E2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:53:23 -!- cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:53:27 -!- taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:56:33 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 10:57:58 workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 11:01:22 http://www.wdyl.com/#common%20lisp  lol: Date with common lisp, Call someone about common lisp 11:02:01 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:03:18 <_8david> That ucl-glorp thing certainly gets points for uses standard-classes, and without requiring macrology. That's a route few other ORMs take. 11:03:31 <_8david> erm, *using 11:03:33 Reading the LLA article on Planet Lisp, I somehow feel that returning floats instead of exact numbers is wrong. There should be at least an option to get exact results. 11:04:17 serichsen: it relies on the sophisticated libraries we have for handling floats. 11:04:47 You'd have to rewrite lapack to use exact arithmetic. 11:06:07 _8david: do you know where can I download it? 11:07:11 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.164.117] has joined #lisp 11:07:19 hestvo 11:08:26 <_8david> rstandy: no 11:08:53 _8david: thanks anyway 11:09:02 -!- razieliyo [~user@unaffiliated/razieliyo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:11:29 pcavs_ [~paul@c-76-118-176-40.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:11:48 -!- chu_ [~chu@58.165.253.149] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:12:51 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@216.227.116.248] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:13:33 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@216.227.116.248] has joined #lisp 11:14:50 ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:15:06 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@216.227.116.248] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:16:59 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@216.227.116.248] has joined #lisp 11:17:33 -!- schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:18:14 -!- workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:20:23 -!- Salamander_ is now known as Salamander 11:20:27 -!- pcavs_ [~paul@c-76-118-176-40.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:22:38 pkhuong, You mean the numeric library provided by GNU. 11:23:11 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:23:12 Multi precision 11:23:41 schme [~marcus@c83-254-205-42.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:23:41 -!- schme [~marcus@c83-254-205-42.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Changing host] 11:23:41 schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 11:23:43 -!- lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:23:47 -!- schme is now known as schmrkc 11:24:34 taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has joined #lisp 11:24:54 http://gmplib.org/ 11:24:54 lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 11:24:59 darba-snauts [~darba-sna@gw205.mt.lv] has joined #lisp 11:25:25 -!- Katibe [~Katibe@212.174.109.55] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:25:26 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:25:38 Or LAPACK 11:26:25 deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 11:26:44 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:26:44 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:27:15 Now you are carrying what MatLab, Mathematica, and Maple are carrying. 11:27:18 Katibe [~Katibe@212.174.109.55] has joined #lisp 11:30:42 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 11:31:36 KDr2 [~KDr2@123.122.123.100] has joined #lisp 11:32:02 -!- KDr2 [~KDr2@123.122.123.100] has quit [Remote host closed the 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264 seconds] 12:59:55 amb007 [~a_bakic@164.4.68.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 13:01:15 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-218-249.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:02:11 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:02:34 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-161-46.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:03:37 ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has joined #lisp 13:03:46 Good morning, all. 13:03:51 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.164.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:03:56 thunk [~user@unaffiliated/thunk] has joined #lisp 13:04:13 morning 13:04:23 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-174-199.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:05:30 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:09:47 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-58-169.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:10:00 -!- derekv [~derekv@c-68-62-78-203.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:10:02 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:10:02 urandom__ [~user@p548A5E9B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:39 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:14:32 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@94.44.107.88] has joined #lisp 13:14:40 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:15:35 replore_ [~replore@ntkngw256114.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:16:21 derekv [~derekv@c-68-62-78-203.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:18:00 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:19:03 -!- kennyd_ [~kennyd@93-141-32-33.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:19:06 -!- attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@94.44.107.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:19:52 -!- excelsior1979 [~excelsior@cpe-68-175-63-138.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:20:45 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.164.117] has joined #lisp 13:24:08 kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-32-33.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 13:25:19 Soulman [~knute@132.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 13:26:29 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-161-46.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:27:37 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-169-144.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:28:05 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-169-144.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:29:00 -!- derekv [~derekv@c-68-62-78-203.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:29:23 mrSpec [~Spec@c-66-31-28-194.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:29:23 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@c-66-31-28-194.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:29:23 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 13:29:46 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-169-144.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:30:31 tvaalen [~r@67.217.170.35] has joined #lisp 13:31:58 Bahman [~bahman@2.144.251.232] has joined #lisp 13:32:33 Hi all! 13:32:40 Hey there. 13:35:12 Hi one! 13:36:48 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 13:37:38 khaliG [~khali@203.171.126.201.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has joined #lisp 13:42:34 is it possible to downgrade to asdf1? 13:42:41 with new sbcls 13:43:05 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.164.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:43:07 (load "asdf1/asdf.lisp") 13:43:16 freiksenet: but there's really no reason to do that. 13:43:18 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-dnpucaxwcjhvhosp] has left #lisp 13:43:30 I have no time to fix *load-truename* stuffed everywhere in our code ) 13:44:08 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 13:45:06 and I need to test if that core bug persists because of sbcl version %) 13:45:13 pjb: thanks 13:46:23 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-177-141.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:47:11 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:49:18 pcavs_ [~pcavallar@63.139.127.6] has joined #lisp 13:50:11 gemelen 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[~derekv@c-68-62-78-203.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:04:48 Madsy [~madman@194.19.37.74] has joined #lisp 14:04:48 -!- Madsy [~madman@194.19.37.74] has quit [Changing host] 14:04:48 Madsy [~madman@fu/coder/madsy] has joined #lisp 14:06:24 tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:45 -!- tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:06:58 Bahman [~bahman@2.144.251.232] has joined #lisp 14:10:05 Bike [~Glossina@69-92-50-197.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:05 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:10:31 is there an equivalent of #+ that works with fasls? 14:11:53 sacho [~sacho@90.154.221.44] has joined #lisp 14:13:13 bobbysmith0071: (eval-when (:load-toplevel) ...) 14:15:58 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:17:07 -!- youguy [~youguy@77.208.109.38] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 14:17:18 sonnym1 [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 14:18:08 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-174-199.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:22:56 cesarbp [~cbp@189.247.164.87] has joined #lisp 14:23:53 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:24:08 iwillig [~iwillig@dyn-128-59-150-217.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 14:24:30 zfx [~zfx@mail.inqmobile.com] has joined #lisp 14:24:30 -!- xan_ [~xan@94.Red-193-152-140.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:24:39 -!- zfx [~zfx@mail.inqmobile.com] has quit [Changing host] 14:24:39 zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 14:26:10 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:26:30 -!- genieliu [~genieliu@59.78.62.120] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:26:51 jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.56] has joined #lisp 14:29:53 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c711b3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:21 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81C574.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:39:16 youguy [~youguy@77.208.66.185] has joined #lisp 14:39:37 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-182-44.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:39:51 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-182-44.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:42:31 -!- youguy [~youguy@77.208.66.185] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:42:59 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-182-44.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:43:44 youguy [~youguy@77.208.66.185] has joined #lisp 14:53:10 -!- njan [~james@freenode/staff/njan] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 14:55:09 njan [~james@freenode/staff/njan] has joined #lisp 14:56:57 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d0029d9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:02 sellout- [~Adium@ALagny-751-1-7-95.w86-218.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:01:24 -!- lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:02:04 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-174-199.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:03:29 pnq [~nick@AC8112DD.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 15:05:06 lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 15:07:32 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:08:31 Is it possible to create a generic method that specialises on the metaclass of an object? 15:09:21 loke: if you pass the class object as an argument, you can dispatch on the classes type (metaclass) 15:09:34 but more directly than that I dont think so 15:09:54 I see what you mean. I just use a wrapper function that calls the generic method, yes? 15:11:11 loke: thats usually what I do 15:11:16 HG` [~HG@p579F7ED1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:11:30 Sounds like a perfectly reasonable solution for me. Thnaks! 15:11:33 thanks, even 15:11:47 -!- bobbysmith0071 is now known as bobbysmith007 15:15:04 srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has joined #lisp 15:15:19 <_8david> Quite often custom metaclasses inject a their own superclass near the top of the inheritance hierarchy. The instances of STANDARD-OBJECT are exactly the instances of instances of STANDARD-CLASS. Similarly STRUCTURE-OBJECT and STRUCTURE-CLASS. 15:16:06 -!- Bahman [~bahman@2.144.251.232] has quit [Quit: Farewell] 15:16:12 realitygrill [~realitygr@c-98-210-208-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:13 <_8david> So if you have a LOKE-CLASS, you can implement it so that it puts LOKE-OBJECT into the cpl of all LOKE-CLASSes, and then dispatch using LOKE-OBJECT as a class specializer. 15:17:11 Bahman [~bahman@2.144.251.232] has joined #lisp 15:17:32 _8david: woo... I never even thought about that possibility. This is after all my first venture into the world of metaclasses 15:18:06 you should seek out a copy of AMOP 15:18:12 fade: I have 15:18:14 wonderful book. 15:18:18 I just started reading it :-) 15:18:29 Haven't got to the good part yet 15:18:45 get on it! :) 15:19:01 My copy is at the office, and I'm at home playing with this stuff now 15:19:49 i read that book, and although I had used quite a bit of CLOS in various systems, I realised that most of what I 'understood' before wasn't really understanding. 15:20:17 cheier [~amedueces@net-216-37-86-189.in-addr.worldspice.net] has joined #lisp 15:20:19 I had just cargo culted a long list of foibles from python. 15:20:28 I think I "understand" the core CLOS at least somewhat acceptably. By that I mean that I'm pretty well aware of all the things that I don't know. 15:20:32 youguy_ [~youguy@90.168.33.134] has joined #lisp 15:20:43 -!- youguy_ [~youguy@90.168.33.134] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:23:24 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 15:23:45 -!- clop2 [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:24:11 -!- youguy [~youguy@77.208.66.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:24:34 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-98-210-208-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:25:04 realitygrill [~realitygr@c-98-210-208-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:58 kpreid [~kpreid@216.239.45.19] has joined #lisp 15:28:41 -!- aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:30:40 add^_ [~add^_^@h147n4c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 15:31:04 well, that's as good a start as any. :) 15:31:59 -!- am0c [~am0c@211.49.101.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:34:31 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@curio.mat.ucm.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:34:45 -!- srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 15:37:29 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 15:45:10 am0c [~am0c@211.49.101.130] has joined #lisp 15:45:13 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-207-189.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:45:59 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.164.117] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:47:28 i'm reading through land of lisp atm. trying to swallow all the nested mapc/mapcar/mapcan and labels graph code. 15:47:37 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:48:06 argh 15:48:09 quite dense 15:48:25 how can I, given a class descriptor, find the metaclass for it? 15:48:39 (class-of (class-of 10)) 15:48:44 -!- jsoftw [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:48:54 woo 15:48:57 thanks 15:48:58 j_king: Once you get past the nomenclature it should be straight-forward. 15:48:59 ! 15:50:05 mstevens [~mstevens@ceres.etla.org] has joined #lisp 15:50:05 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@ceres.etla.org] has quit [Changing host] 15:50:05 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 15:52:36 _KY_ [YKY@unaffiliated/-ky-/x-0649748] has joined #lisp 15:52:42 -!- pnq [~nick@AC8112DD.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:53:09 I'm starting to understand a lot of stuff that is in languages like Java handled in a superclass, actually belongs in the metaclass 15:53:17 <_KY_> What is the best way to link with C#, and which lisp implementation is good for that? 15:53:34 Probably ECLS. 15:53:35 _KY_: don't know, but for Java, ABCL is great 15:53:47 rdnzl does interop with .net. Still Lispworks only, i believe. 15:54:21 <_KY_> loke: I tried ABCL + java, but the documentation for linking with java is very sketchy 15:54:31 _KY_: true, but it's very simple 15:54:38 <_KY_> I still haven't finished that part... 15:55:08 Here, take this helper macro I wrote: 15:55:21 _KY_: http://www.weitz.de/rdnzl/#implementations  seems it's not entirely limited to LW 15:55:43 http://paste.lisp.org/display/122990 15:56:23 _KY_: with that, all you have to do is to type, for example: 15:56:35 francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has joined #lisp 15:56:49 _KY_: (call-java-method ("java.lang.String" "valueOf" "int") 10) 15:57:04 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216.239.45.19] has quit [Quit: Offline] 15:57:41 sorry 15:57:43 _KY_: (call-java-method ("java.lang.String" "valueOf" "int") nil 10) 15:58:37 -!- naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 15:58:58 naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has joined #lisp 15:59:38 <_KY_> I forgot the problem I had when linking with java last time... maybe I'll ask here when I do it again=) 15:59:49 Sure 16:00:05 Zhivago: it's not bad really, I like map* functions.. but the nesting can get hard to visualize mentally. 16:00:07 I use it to hook my database library into JDBC 16:00:10 works great 16:00:16 pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:53 well, not impossible of course. just requires effort. :) 16:01:59 -!- replore_ [~replore@ntkngw256114.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:02:51 tritchey [~tritchey@205.233.9.181] has joined #lisp 16:02:51 -!- sellout- [~Adium@ALagny-751-1-7-95.w86-218.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:03:01 sellout- [~Adium@ALagny-751-1-7-95.w86-218.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:04:04 -!- zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has quit [Quit: bbl] 16:08:20 sabalaba [~sabalaba@75-101-62-95.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:59 kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.237.227] has joined #lisp 16:16:47 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:16:57 kpreid [~kpreid@216.239.45.19] has joined #lisp 16:17:20 -!- bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip70-189-66-194.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:17:20 -!- sellout- [~Adium@ALagny-751-1-7-95.w86-218.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:17:35 sellout- [~Adium@ALagny-751-1-7-95.w86-218.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:20:20 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-135-202-10.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 16:20:20 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-135-202-10.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Changing host] 16:20:20 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:21:04 what happened to this: http://jsnell.iki.fi/blog/archive/2005-07-06.html did anyone take it any further? 16:27:12 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216.239.45.19] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 16:27:12 cools [~user@CPE0026f32ba2b0-CM0026f32ba2ad.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:27:30 -!- am0c [~am0c@211.49.101.130] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:29:24 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-98-210-208-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:29:30 realitygrill [~realitygr@c-98-210-208-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:17 zfx [~zfx@host81-154-229-67.range81-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 16:31:17 -!- zfx [~zfx@host81-154-229-67.range81-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 16:31:17 zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 16:32:16 oh lisp, i loves you 16:32:44 if only i could use you for everything 16:32:46 Lisp is sexy. 16:33:00 editing videos? (cut clip-1 clip-2 'dissolve) oh yeah.. 16:33:15 that would keep me a bit saner during the day 16:33:52 web browsing? (open (find-link "Download")) 16:34:15 :) 16:34:26 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:37:12 Cloud_ [~cbp@189.247.164.87] has joined #lisp 16:38:25 youguy [~youguy@90.168.33.134] has joined #lisp 16:40:37 -!- e-user [~e-user@nat/nokia/x-xukdrfglaqaetfot] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:40:44 -!- cesarbp [~cbp@189.247.164.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:41:03 -!- Joreji [~thomas@90-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:43:50 thunk` [~user@cpe-70-115-60-226.hot.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:44:03 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:44:18 -!- thunk` [~user@cpe-70-115-60-226.hot.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:44:18 -!- thunk [~user@unaffiliated/thunk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:44:46 -!- sellout- [~Adium@ALagny-751-1-7-95.w86-218.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:45:01 sellout- [~Adium@ALagny-751-1-7-95.w86-218.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:47:50 -!- naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 16:48:03 naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has joined #lisp 16:49:56 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-064-186-242.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:33 SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@VEROXITY.ipcolo1.SanFrancisco1.Level3.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:19 is the x11 protocol code for clx hand-written or generated? 16:54:07 -!- francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:54:33 -!- youguy [~youguy@90.168.33.134] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 16:54:49 -!- DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has quit [Quit: reboot] 16:57:09 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:57:38 excelsior1979 [~excelsior@cpe-68-175-63-138.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:02:42 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d0029d9.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:02:45 DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has joined #lisp 17:04:01 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 17:05:09 -!- khaliG [~khali@203.171.126.201.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:05:45 khaliG [~khali@203.171.126.201.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has joined #lisp 17:13:37 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-104.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:14:57 -!- khaliG [~khali@203.171.126.201.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:15:13 sword` [~sword@c-76-115-88-63.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:19 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-32-125-163.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:03 -!- specbot [~specbot@tiger.common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:17:03 -!- sword [~sword@c-76-115-88-63.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:17:24 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:17:57 if anyone needs a sesame connection (rest api), let me know. i have a half-baked build here, it works, but i apparently don't need it for now. 17:19:09 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:21:49 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@205.233.9.181] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 17:21:58 Is there a reason (in current SBCL) that I can compile and load a file containing a function with a typecase that references an undefined type, but cannot load a fasl of the same file (due to "Class not yet defined" errors from find-classoid-cell). The type will be defined by the time I call the function and telling it to try-recompiling allows compilation to continue, so more of an inconvenience than anything. 17:23:42 -!- sonnym1 [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:25:57 -!- sellout- [~Adium@ALagny-751-1-7-95.w86-218.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:27:23 tritchey [~tritchey@205.233.9.181] has joined #lisp 17:31:42 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-98-210-208-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:33:33 realitygrill [~realitygr@c-98-210-208-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:48 sonnym1 [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 17:37:58 sellout- [~Adium@ALagny-751-1-28-145.w83-112.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:41:23 -!- SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@VEROXITY.ipcolo1.SanFrancisco1.Level3.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:44:36 pnq [~nick@AC813D4F.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 17:48:15 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@2620:0:2820:b03:214:22ff:fe45:5204] has joined #lisp 17:49:25 splittist [~splittist@AMontsouris-553-1-71-237.w92-151.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:49:37 xan_ [~xan@94.Red-193-152-140.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:30 splittist2 [~splittist@AMontsouris-553-1-71-237.w92-151.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:53:48 -!- splittist [~splittist@AMontsouris-553-1-71-237.w92-151.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:56:38 SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@VEROXITY.ipcolo1.SanFrancisco1.Level3.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:32 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c711b3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:00:39 anvandare [~anvandare@78-21-53-60.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 18:01:48 msponge [~msponge@nat/google/x-uqdfxbkmerdgjxwp] has joined #lisp 18:06:36 tcr1 [~tcr@80-218-247-218.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 18:09:11 -!- kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.237.227] has left #lisp 18:11:44 is '(1 . 2) read-only ? 18:12:00 kennyd: you can mutate it, but the consequence are undefined if you do. 18:12:09 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@75-101-62-95.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:13:08 is the same true for '(1 2) and #(1 2) ? 18:15:16 What is the difference between '(1 . 2) and '(1 2)? 18:15:39 first is a cons cell, second a list 18:15:48 what is a list? 18:15:52 (cons 1 2) vs (cons 1 (cons 2)) 18:16:19 yeah I see where you're going with this 18:16:33 sabalaba [~sabalaba@75-101-62-95.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:16:36 good :-) it's (cons 1 (cons 2 nil)) btw 18:16:44 true :P 18:17:09 the same is true for both, for all literals in fact 18:17:15 so also string literals 18:17:20 okay 18:18:25 it's a more interesting question if this also includes data produced by read-time evaluation (#.) or compile-time evaluation (macros) 18:18:48 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-064-186-242.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:19:12 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@75-101-62-95.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:19:29 does it? 18:19:45 or to stretch it any data dumped into a fasl. The latter is I think not true, e.g. I think you're allowed to modify stuff dumped via make-load-form 18:20:02 -!- cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.123.236] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:21:21 carlocci [~nes@93.37.213.168] has joined #lisp 18:27:23 kennyd: This might be interesting, seems to be related to your questions: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_bdd.htm 18:28:06 jmbr [~jmbr@curio.mat.ucm.es] has joined #lisp 18:28:11 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@curio.mat.ucm.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:28:22 jmbr [~jmbr@curio.mat.ucm.es] has joined #lisp 18:30:23 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:55 -!- anvandare [~anvandare@78-21-53-60.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:42:00 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:44:40 -!- naiv [~quassel@ARennes-652-1-4-177.w2-10.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:46:29 naiv [~quassel@ARennes-652-1-4-177.w2-10.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:48:00 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-hlcudvuocpwlqudp] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:54:29 silenius [~silenus@p5494798D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:41 pavelludiq [57f63ac1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 18:54:45 -!- Cloud_ [~cbp@189.247.164.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:58:33 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@164.4.68.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:59:30 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c2607.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:41 -!- alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:59:52 hi 19:01:42 -!- pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:02:44 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 19:06:39 Night-hacks [~nullpoint@95.38.52.69] has joined #lisp 19:10:29 foocraft [~ewanas@178.152.126.101] has joined #lisp 19:11:41 -!- zmv [~daniel@c95315ce.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:15:30 pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:58 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 19:19:31 hi 19:20:47 i want to (read) an input "it will be a sign" and apply it to input numbers. 19:21:06 yello, Night-hacks, prxq 19:21:14 Night-hacks: you should read the chapter about syntax. 19:21:20 Night-hacks: can you provide an example? 19:21:27 There's no such thing as "a sign" for the lisp reader. 19:21:28 hi JuanDaugherty 19:21:39 no i mean math sign 19:21:45 like "+" 19:21:55 but when i apply it to number 19:21:57 Night-hacks: read http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_.htm 19:21:59 (apply (read) '(1 2 3 4)) 19:22:03 + is a symbol. 19:22:05 it says undefined function 19:22:43 "+" is a string, and useless for this purpose. You would have to map it to a symbol denoting a function or a function. 19:22:48 Night-hacks: not here 19:22:50 or (funcall (read) 1 2 3 4) 19:23:07 Night-hacks: don't use quotes 19:23:35 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-98-210-208-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:23:43 i write " " just for clearance here not in my code 19:23:51 Again, read chapter 2 of clhs, and of the syntax proposed doesn't match the one you want to read, then implement your own parser. 19:24:01 Night-hacks: what about your data? 19:24:10 realitygrill [~realitygr@c-98-210-208-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:24:18 pjb: they are numbers 19:24:29 Night-hacks: no, you said it was "a sign"! 19:24:36 What do you read? 19:24:42 Night-hacks: does the example i gave work or not? 19:24:51 What's the syntax of your input file? 19:24:56 What did you implement to parse it? 19:25:06 francogrex [~user@109.130.93.107] has joined #lisp 19:25:18 rread [~rread@c-98-234-218-55.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:22 prxq: checking ... 19:28:26 pjb: but i dont want to use parser 19:28:34 prxq: yeah that worked 19:28:42 -!- rstandy [~rastandy@net-2-32-237-189.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:29:03 Night-hacks: so you must adopt the lisp syntax. If you read a function designator, your data should be a function designator. Ie. either a symbol naming a function, or the function itself. 19:29:11 + is a symbol naming a function. 19:29:16 i wanted something like that but instead of '(1 2 3 4) i want user to give them. 19:29:23 #.(function +) let you read the function itself, when *read-eval* is true. 19:29:43 Night-hacks: You said you wanted to read the input that will be "a sign"? 19:29:51 You didn't say that you wanted to read a list of numbers. 19:30:07 So how do you want to enter those numbers? 19:30:23 as a list? one by one? How to terminate the list? with what syntax? 19:30:23 pjb: reading from *query-io* 19:30:41 The input stream is totally irrelevant. Please answer the questions! 19:31:06 killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 19:31:09 i want to get the user's numbers one by one and apply his sign to them 19:31:17 Night-hacks: why not just read a form and evaluate it? You can implement a REPL. 19:31:28 Night-hacks: (eva (read)) and then input: (+ 1 2 3) 19:31:33 (eval (read)) 19:31:53 Night-hacks: ok, so you must read the sign, and the read one number and then read one number ... 19:31:56 When do you stop? 19:32:05 -!- tsuru [~charlie@74.240.217.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:32:27 So far the input syntax you have specified is: input ::= sign number* 19:32:30 infinite loop till user press sth 19:32:35 What??? 19:32:45 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.213.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:32:46 What is the end of the list? By default it's the end of file. 19:33:01 Which for interactive input is the end of the universe. 19:33:25 it can be anything 19:33:37 Imagine all the end-of-file error processed in the last milliseconds of the universe... 19:33:38 like the number 5? 19:33:43 -!- benny [~benny@i577A14B4.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:33:53 prxq: yeah 19:34:03 or "exit" String 19:34:14 So your syntax is: input ::= sign not-5-number* 5 . 19:34:16 macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.A328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 19:34:22 So you see, you have a syntax, and you must parse it. 19:34:40 You must parse it because this is not the syntax of a lisp sexp. 19:34:45 pjb: it's ok I guess 19:34:47 benny [~benny@i577A3D9E.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:34:52 cl:read only reads lisp sexps. For anything you must implement the parser yourself. 19:35:11 you can also use a ready made one. 19:35:26 using reader macros i suppose 19:35:45 So how do yo implement a parser for the grammar: input ::= sign number* "exit" . ? 19:35:55 i think it'll be ok to use read and using a simple if at the end of my loop 19:36:27 Yes. However, when using read, it accepts any readable lisp object, so you must check that the tokens you read are of the type you expected. 19:37:45 or not. 19:37:54 I mean, what do you have against the debugger? 19:38:08 tsuru [~charlie@adsl-74-240-217-227.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:13 carlocci [~nes@93.37.213.168] has joined #lisp 19:38:44 prxq: it's a user program... 19:39:16 alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #lisp 19:39:47 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:39:56 that we don't know. Also, he can use the condition system. 19:40:09 Or maybe the user calls him over if there is a FU. 19:43:39 what about this ? 19:43:43 (let (sign (read *query-io*) 19:44:00 Night-hacks: have you read PCL? 19:44:05 yeah 19:44:14 Then what's the syntax for let? 19:44:16 clhs let 19:44:30 no its in my functions body 19:44:40 You don't have to know it by heart, but you have to read CLHS. 19:45:10 i just want to know can i apply sign to my list too ? 19:45:21 We told you: with apply. 19:45:34 yeah but it throws an error 19:45:35 Night-hacks: homework? 19:45:52 Night-hacks: that let form is malformed 19:46:01 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.93.107] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:46:08 Night-hacks: Ah, well, I guess you will have to wait for the team of telepathic debuggers. Before midnight, you only have the normal people here. 19:46:42 prxq: im java dev, im searching a lang for night-hacks ! and ive choosed CL , an homework for my heart ! 19:47:05 great :-) 19:47:41 i think i've cursed by CL ! 19:47:51 OK 19:48:05 Night-hacks: http://paste.lisp.org/display/122995 19:48:17 Night-hacks: you're cursed by a lack of precision and specifications. 19:48:18 waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-5d8504af.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:50 pjb: no i meant good kind of curs. i cant leave CL ! 19:48:59 Ah, ok! :-) 19:49:40 Later, when you'll want to learn about macros, read "Casting Spels in Lisp" http://www.lisperati.com/casting.html 19:50:50 -!- HG` [~HG@p579F7ED1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: HG`] 19:50:59 There's a full blown book out now by the author Casting Spells. 19:51:12 Yes, LoL. 19:51:13 thanks, checking ... 19:51:20 -!- ramusara_ [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 19:51:24 One of the two LoL's, actually. 19:51:29 Both are great. 19:51:38 Night-hacks: have you tried my paste? 19:51:59 which one ? 19:52:05 Night-hacks: http://paste.lisp.org/display/122995 19:52:15 yeah im checking it 19:52:21 So? 19:54:00 pjb: a little slow on reading lisp ! 19:54:20 did you wrote it right now !? 19:54:29 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c2607.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:54:31 Of course. 19:54:35 From your "specifications". 19:54:47 too fast, a little confused ! 19:55:19 Well then you'll be busy for the rest of the evening studying it :-) 19:55:43 yeah it seems so 19:55:46 Did you try to run it, and give it some input? Does it do what you want? 19:55:52 pjb why use : in the loop? 19:56:05 im copying it on file for loading with slime ... 19:56:51 kennyd: because the loop keywords are not exported from CL, so if you write a loop, they are interned in the current package, and if you later use a package that export them (eg. a FOR macro, or a COLLECT function), then you get errors. 20:00:01 mstevens [~mstevens@ceres.etla.org] has joined #lisp 20:00:01 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@ceres.etla.org] has quit [Changing host] 20:00:01 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 20:01:29 pjb: that's what i wanted plus Validation !! 20:01:39 Good. 20:02:20 but your loop is not in any function, how to call it ? 20:02:42 Note however, that you might have choosen to accept the symbol exit instead of the string exit to finish the input. Or alternatively a newline. As it is, you can insert newlines when between the numbers. Often for interactive I/O, you may want to read a whole line, and then parse it. 20:03:30 You could use: (with-input-from-string (input (read-line *query-io*)) (parse-input input)) (and modify parse-numbers to parse number* till the end of file instead of till the "exit" string. 20:03:43 Night-hacks: wrap it in the function you want. 20:04:06 pjb: aha i thought there is something behind such definition. 20:04:09 Or wrap the body of the loop in the function you want, for a single interaction, and do something to let the user exit from the infinite loop. 20:05:56 _schulte_ [~eschulte@66.201.54.34] has joined #lisp 20:09:58 pjb you mean if I do (loop for x in '(1 2 3) collect x). and then export a for macro, I'll get errors? 20:10:22 and then import for, yes. 20:10:31 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:10:49 kennyd: if you use a package that exports its own FOR symbol, you'll get a conflict. If you make sure to import everything you need when you define the package, then that won't be an issue. 20:10:59 (defpackage "LOOPS" (:export "FOR" "WHILE")) (loop for x in '(1 2 3) while (oddp x) collect x) (use-package "LOOPS") 20:11:11 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 20:11:45 Of course, it occurs most often in interactive use. In static programs, you will have used the package before writing loops. 20:11:58 yeah 20:11:58 In any given lisp implementation, is Nil a reference to the symbol nil? 20:12:03 Nonetheless, people also like to use keywords for the nice fontification emacs provides. 20:12:05 still, wasn't aware of this. thanks 20:12:11 Modius: depends on the case setting. 20:12:15 Modius: by default, yes. 20:12:21 -!- waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-5d8504af.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:12:21 pkhuong: Case setting? 20:12:34 Modius: But you could change the read table so that Nil is read as |Nil| while nil is read as |NIL|. 20:12:51 Modius: or you could change the *package* so that nil is some-package:nil and not cl:nil. 20:13:04 Aah - I should restate - I didn't mean the striing nil - I meant the list-terminating nil, is it always a symbol? 20:13:16 There's no string here. 20:13:32 Again, if you don't change the read table, then () is read as cl:nil. 20:13:40 Modius: nil is both a symbol and a list. 20:14:07 (symbolp (make-list 0)) <-- inherently portably and by standard is this always true? 20:14:10 Modius: the CL list processing functions expect the symbol NIL as empty list and list terminator. 20:14:27 Modius: yes. 20:14:30 Thanks 20:14:43 Modius: yes, as long as you didn't set *package* in such a way as symbolp or make-list not be cl:symbolp or cl:make-list. 20:15:02 pjb: Haha, good caviat. 20:15:04 caveat 20:15:18 (|CL|:|SYMBOLP| (|CL|:|MAKE-LIST| 0.)) --> true 20:15:31 unless you did a very strong hack of the readtable... 20:15:32 Sorry, I overrode ( and | haha 20:16:53 astalla [~astalla@dynamic-adsl-94-36-48-121.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 20:17:20 ok , thanks for help's everyone. 20:17:24 Modius: in any case, since you're probably using a CL implementation that has also threads, the semantics of CL remain entirely unspecified, in presence of threads. 20:17:51 pjb: must check everything lots of new question, ill be back with them ! 20:18:01 ok. :-) 20:18:17 tauntaun [~Crumpet@64.134.98.211] has joined #lisp 20:19:19 -!- Night-hacks [~nullpoint@95.38.52.69] has left #lisp 20:21:27 Joreji [~thomas@90-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:24:30 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-32-125-163.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:24:49 waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@vpn-137-041.rz.uni-augsburg.de] has joined #lisp 20:27:59 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@205.233.9.181] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 20:31:40 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@2620:0:2820:b03:214:22ff:fe45:5204] has quit [Quit: Some days you're the pigeon, some days the statue...] 20:34:12 amb007 [~a_bakic@164.4.68.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:28 tunes [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 20:42:58 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-174-199.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:44:34 razieliyo [~user@unaffiliated/razieliyo] has joined #lisp 20:44:37 hi 20:47:50 kpreid [~kpreid@nat/google/x-rkcbgbcbcpspbcpa] has joined #lisp 20:49:54 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@64.134.98.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:51:56 sabalaba [~sabalaba@75-101-62-95.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:32 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 20:54:49 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-152-244.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:54:50 tauntaun [~Crumpet@64.134.98.211] has joined #lisp 20:55:03 -!- waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@vpn-137-041.rz.uni-augsburg.de] has quit [Quit: WTF? leaving!] 20:55:24 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-189-117.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:55:26 waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@vpn-137-041.rz.uni-augsburg.de] has joined #lisp 20:56:30 -!- Guthur [c0c1748e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.193.116.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:58:11 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@curio.mat.ucm.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:00:02 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:00:12 fourier [~user@h-138-163.A176.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 21:00:38 -!- pnq [~nick@AC813D4F.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:01:18 -!- timjstewart1 [~tims@159.182.183.6] has left #lisp 21:02:54 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-189-117.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:04:51 alama [~alama@d86-33-47-55.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 21:05:03 any ucw hackers out there? 21:05:23 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@64.134.98.211] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:08:45 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:09:36 jmbr [~jmbr@curio.mat.ucm.es] has joined #lisp 21:09:42 -!- sellout- [~Adium@ALagny-751-1-28-145.w83-112.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:10:06 sellout- [~Adium@ALagny-751-1-28-145.w83-112.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:10:22 -!- iwillig [~iwillig@dyn-128-59-150-217.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:11:10 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-169-144.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:11:42 alama: I might suffice 21:12:29 bobbysmith007: i'm having a tough time with radio button inputs 21:12:51 alama: though most of my experience comes from a much modified version 21:13:05 bobbysmith007: well, you might know what's going on 21:13:08 are you using yaclml to generate HTML or something else? 21:13:16 yacml 21:13:55 ok well whats the problem with them? 21:14:16 i can't seem to determine which of a group of radio inputs was selected 21:14:40 i'm using all my inputs have a common name, so i'm using a fixed string for the :name keyword argument to alama: what are you getting back? usually the browser will send the value of the selected radio input as a string which UCW will handle with a call back setting the lisp client-value slot on your component 21:16:39 or if you are not using components, then it will just be a value in the parameters collection 21:17:17 it looks like you would just want to assoc it out of the parameters collection (looking at my copy of ucw:input 21:17:22 i'm using an object as a value; it looks like the browser is sending the printout of an object; that is, when i look at what the value is for the parameter (using, say, firebug), i see " #" 21:17:35 yes that makes sense 21:18:09 the value that ucw:input prints to the browser is a string and then that string is resubmitted and set into the value spot of the component 21:18:49 or in your case the writer/(setf accessor) 21:19:24 alama: actually one sec 21:19:41 pnq [~nick@ACA52085.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 21:20:25 alama: sorry this is explictly the part of ucw I replaced all of in our private copy, and so the part I have the least experience with... trying to parse it all out now 21:20:33 heh 21:20:34 ok 21:22:17 alama: it looks like your reader/writer functions (or accessor) are responsible for coercing the value to a reasonable string representation and back.... If you are not taking care of this, then the default way to print a lisp object is used, and that unloadable printed representation is sent back to the server where it happily stores the string for you 21:23:22 bobbysmith007: ah, ok, let me try to work with that, then 21:23:25 thanks 21:23:41 alama: no problem 21:24:55 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:26:52 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.213.168] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 21:31:29 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 21:31:44 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA52085.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:37:07 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:37:20 -!- littlebobby [~bob@unaffiliated/littlebobby] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:39:52 -!- sonnym1 [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:42:22 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:44:02 zmv [~daniel@c95315ce.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 21:44:13 bobbysmith007: hmm, how can i access the value of a parameter submitted in a POST request? 21:44:28 it seems that it's unset for me, somehow 21:44:56 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:46:29 i changed things so that the accessor of my ucw:input's print a string value that i can easily associate with an object (i can just use an alist for this); but i'm having trouble even seeing the POST parameter 21:46:40 -!- pcavs_ [~pcavallar@63.139.127.6] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:48:41 i could bail out of the radio option route and just use a drop-down selection box; i can use these successfully 21:52:03 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-177-141.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:54:47 you're posting to a defentry-point no? 21:55:09 -!- Younder [~john@145.234.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:55:34 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:55:34 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 21:55:36 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 21:55:52 *felideon* hasn't played with UCW since way back when 21:56:06 chu_ [~chu@CPE-58-165-253-149.lns1.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 22:01:09 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:02:44 -!- lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:03:18 felideon: i'm not, in fact -- i've got a ucw:form with an action that is ginormous hairy lisp form, not a call to an entry point 22:03:27 i learned ucw from you, felideon :-> 22:03:52 i'm pretty sure i'm going to abandon it as soon as i get the next batch of functionality done 22:03:58 i really can't stand ucw anymore 22:04:00 pnq [~nick@ACA2ACD3.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 22:04:47 i used to think it was great 22:05:08 but i somehow veered off the path pretty early on; now i can barely make sense of my own ucw code any more 22:06:52 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-218-70.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:14 -!- jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.56] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:09:26 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:09:42 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 22:10:07 -!- astalla [~astalla@dynamic-adsl-94-36-48-121.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Quit] 22:11:26 -!- ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:11:39 alama: :( 22:11:48 yeah, it's disappointing 22:12:12 these days i don't even use a web framework; i just fire up hunchentoot and do things "directly" 22:13:17 I find that pretty convenient & nice, actually 22:13:26 yeah 22:13:33 ignis_ [~quassel@12.50.98.2] has joined #lisp 22:13:43 I usually write an HTTP API, then use jquery and a bit of CSS to make that into an app (: 22:14:06 not cool for web-facing stuff (you need pre-rendered things), but definitely ok for web apps. 22:15:00 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.108.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:15:57 alama: well fwiw maybe with more UCW knowledge things would have stayed manageable. the problem is no one knows how to use it :) 22:16:01 well only a few brave souls 22:16:18 the stuff that i'm doing now via a ginormous complicated state machine within ucw can to a large extent be done in the client, with javascript 22:16:29 so lack of documentation, examples, etc. makes it hard for people to go beyond basics I guess. 22:16:51 -!- sharkasgo2 is now known as sharkasgo 22:17:36 and I haven't seen drewc in a while, at least not in here. 22:17:36 the recent blog post by...i forget who 22:18:04 talked about dumping the continuations-based web framework approach championed by ucw (and weblocks and ...) 22:18:05 alama: why don't you generate the state machine from a higher level description? 22:18:18 felideon: definitely 22:18:28 pjb: i probably could 22:18:33 alama: there are indeed arguments against using continuation for web application, despite the apparent match. 22:19:08 pjb: but one constraint is that i need to get this working asap; ucw tends to require lots of experimentation for me 22:19:24 -!- excelsior1979 [~excelsior@cpe-68-175-63-138.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:20:03 http://carcaddar.blogspot.com/2011/06/continuation-based-web-applications.html dicusses the case against continuations 22:20:34 alama: if it's not a big web app, perhaps a switch to hunchentoot would be still possible at this time? 22:20:56 hunchentoot is rather easy to understand. On the other hand, it's somewhat lower level. 22:20:57 pjb: i just might do that soon enough 22:21:05 -!- taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:22:02 "There are well-known problems with continuation-based web apps: bookmarks, history, and back/forward buttons don't work." um 22:23:03 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:23:38 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@80-218-247-218.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:24:00 antifuchs: if your continuations aren't encoded in the URL, anyway ;) 22:24:46 mrSpec [~Spec@pool-151-204-255-122.bstnma.btas.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:46 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@pool-151-204-255-122.bstnma.btas.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:24:46 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 22:26:10 http://common-lisp.net/project/ucw/docs/html/rest/rest.html 22:26:10 -!- SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@VEROXITY.ipcolo1.SanFrancisco1.Level3.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:27:04 antifuchs: is that post really saying that continuations are bad because they're not RESTful but AJAX is good? 22:28:05 Evanescence [~chris@122.237.0.144] has joined #lisp 22:28:20 i found that pretty enlightening when discussing REST vs Continuations 23:56:47 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 23:56:47 23:56:47 -!- names: ccl-logbot yates BrianRice bombshelter13b Joreji katesmith cesarbp hargettp dfox Mococa iwillig SegFaultAX Evanescence mrSpec ignis_ sonnym gigamonkey pnq ltriant chu_ REPLeffect zmv Demosthenes jmbr fourier waaaaargh pchrist sabalaba kpreid tunes amb007 madnificent _schulte_ alfa_y_omega tsuru benny macrobat rread realitygrill Zephyrus foocraft pavelludiq splittist2 sword` jewel Spion DGASAU naryl bzzbzz zfx cools _KY_ gffa add^_ ikki njan sacho Bike 23:56:47 -!- names: derekv tvaalen Soulman kennyd kiuma JuanDaugherty Katibe Modius joekarma dmiles_afk Jasko2 deepfire schmrkc daniel__ mornfall Yuuhi cmm pinterface Salamander Oddity dlowe johanbev insomniaSalt finnrobi hydo abeaumont Khisanth el-maxo Phoodus phrontist nannto__ StrmSrfr AntiSpamMeta Borbus egn kjellkt luis gkeith mutewit aperturefever quasisane incandenza pdo chr` CallToPower Jasko rsynnott mathrick Tordek zenlunatic s0ber bobbysmith007 nowhereman 23:56:47 -!- names: nullman hargettp_ algorist_ Nshag loke drdo cmatei vert2 sharkasgo3 confab peddie easyE peterhil` joast anonchik npoektop rvncerr Yamazaki-kun quotemstr jfleming McMAGIC--Copy sykopomp fe[nl]ix ianmcorvidae skalawag La0fer ASau C-Keen daimrod fihi09 cpt_nemo yroeht z0d CrazyEddy amaron_ jsoft atumtal guther joshee kleppari tic Pathin schoppenhauer mon_key lolsuper_ billstclair araujo spurvewt em setmeaway martinhex julius2 Euthydemus neaer clog daedric 23:56:47 -!- names: rtoym sshirokov jso michelp theBlackDragon jamief peterhil mgr zanea mikejs ramus Quetzalcoatl_ hugod housel derrida reb pkhuong sanjoyd sirmacik Pepe_ ok2 cYmen mtd ezakimak ``Erik xristos parabolize nuba DrForr aoh tali713 dostoyevsky zort callen Buganini_ Intensity Xof_ slyrus rahul Adrinael lonstein tessier acieroid koisoke ecraven _krappie_ kunwon1 lusory _3b krl froggey Obfuscate phadthai Quadrescence kanru hohum_ r11t_ rootzlevel rotty_ levi fmu 23:56:47 -!- names: Ralith eli jrockway arbscht wtetzner foom akkartik_ redline6561_ tempire_ xale Patzy koollman p_l|backup pok larva sid3k wivlaro PissedNumlock yahooooo eno micro oGMo Posterdati churib djinni` |3b| milkpost mal__ jiacobucci groundnuty cpc26 scode_ adeht rabite_ afa_ euphidime_ hyko zbigniew yan_ oconnore setheus _8david antoszka pjb __class__ phryk srcerer boyscared Tristam joshe Dodek Zhivago ilmari felipe tomaw cmbntr_ Axioplase_ erk colazero tychoish 23:56:47 -!- names: df_aldur _main_ cods shachaf tty234 pp206 ineiros galdor Bucciarati OliverUv Aisling zakwilson spacebat Jabberwockey antifuchs elliottcable herbieB fds jeekl jsnell albino SpitfireWP j_king Fade freiksenet klutometis guaqua johs elliottjohnson cipher ozzloy a7p dcrawford literal Hun k9quaint erg kloeri ve 23:57:31 can someone please explain to me, at the 30-thousand foot level, if weblocks separates model from view and if so by what mechanism? 23:57:52 rather, by what mechanism the controller operates?