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out] 01:59:09 whee [~whee@misplaced.smaertness.net] has joined #lisp 02:06:10 derrida [~derrida-f@unaffiliated/deleuze] has joined #lisp 02:07:43 -!- general-general [~marypatri@86-46-61-67-dynamic.b-ras3.mvw.galway.eircom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:08:28 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.152.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:09:12 -!- taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:14:20 -!- quotemstr [~quotemstr@dancol.org] has left #lisp 02:14:34 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.58.178.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:15:26 is there something apparently wrong here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/122747, the 'echo' case keeps evaluating to otherwise but 'time' works just fine. 02:17:00 Consider *package*. 02:17:07 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 02:17:51 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:17:52 Zhivago: hm, me? 02:19:00 guessing not since that would seem strange :P 02:19:30 Yes, you. 02:19:39 orly 02:20:25 well, the *package* is the asdf system for the project 02:20:29 tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:21:05 *package* is dynamic. 02:21:29 Consider the case where *package* was A when you compiled that code, but B when you ran it. 02:21:32 quotemstr [~quotemstr@dancol.org] has joined #lisp 02:21:36 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 02:21:41 Is there a less hacky way of doing what this macro does? http://paste.lisp.org/display/122748 02:21:50 And then consider the case where B inherits TIME from A, but not ECHO. 02:21:56 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:21:57 -!- tritchey_ is now known as tritchey 02:22:02 interesting 02:22:05 Essentially, I want to know whether, given a symbol and a form, whether that symbol is ever used in a value position. 02:22:39 quotemstr: code walker. 02:23:10 whee_ [~whee@misplaced.smaertness.net] has joined #lisp 02:23:53 derrida: You might like to bind *package* to the package you expect for the extent of that read operation. 02:24:35 just wrap in a let? 02:24:45 -!- whee [~whee@misplaced.smaertness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:24:45 -!- whee_ is now known as whee 02:24:55 Sure. 02:25:24 When you've fixed and understood the problem, you might also like to replace all of that with INTERN. 02:26:08 pjb: symbol-macrolet is already a code walker. :-) 02:26:17 Indeed. 02:26:36 I wish CL (and elisp) had generic code walkers though. 02:27:53 Zhivago: good point. i knew this was a bit nonsensical, i forget about string-upcase and flailed when intern returned a lower case symbol! 02:28:01 s/forget/forgot/ 02:31:02 Mococa [~Mococa@187.58.178.20] has joined #lisp 02:31:45 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 02:32:09 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.152.108] has joined #lisp 02:32:37 -!- urandom_ [~user@p548A43F0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:32:55 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:37 derrida: CL's quasi case-insensitivity is somewhat deranged. 02:34:26 Zhivago: quasi? 02:34:30 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:35:32 -!- whee [~whee@misplaced.smaertness.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:35:50 Evanescence [~chris@122.237.31.101] has joined #lisp 02:35:53 CL is case sensitive but reader by default upcases symbols 02:36:01 Zhivago: (setf (readtable-case *readtable*) :preserve) ; no derangement left. 02:36:25 pjb: that casuses even more derangement, at least when i tried it 02:36:39 whee [~whee@misplaced.smaertness.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:44 you have to program in all uppercase after you do that...at least for all CL symbols 02:37:04 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-98-113-194-183.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:37:08 kruhft: ues. Those nice upper case letters! :-) 02:37:14 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:39:31 i was wondering if there was a way to build sbcl with case :preserved...never tried it though 02:40:04 :invert. 02:40:56 that's more likely to work with, e.g. defstruct. 02:41:18 LOOP's handling of symbols still bugs me a bit. 02:42:44 I think that JS did the right thing in merging strings and symbols. 02:42:58 I can see how CL symbols evolved, but ... 02:43:30 Nonsense! 02:43:46 Zhivago: Ruby has real symbols. 02:43:52 Zhivago: you're not improving. Is it the old age? 02:44:00 pjb: I see that your critical facilities are operating at their usual low level. 02:44:13 blub is realer symbols 02:44:15 Zhivago: modulo namespacing. 02:44:15 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.58.178.20] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:44:25 *has 02:44:26 pkhuong: Indeed. 02:44:32 otherwise, yeah, immutable strings. 02:44:54 pkhuong: But you can use a private-use code-point to delimit those. 02:44:55 Zhivago: Also, Javascript's object syntax makes the duality less painful. 02:45:00 ({foo: 4, bar: 5}) 02:46:19 Zhivago: seriously, and then hiding structure in strings? 02:46:41 whatever. 02:47:01 pkhuong: Well, it's only the reader and writer that would need deal with it. 02:48:33 pkhuong: If you structure it as packagename, then it's cheap. 02:50:14 -!- OliverUv_ [~gandhi@195.159.235.178] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:51:23 and symbol-manipulating programs 02:52:06 Yeah, but they have the usual symbol-name, symbol-package, intern, etc mechanisms. 02:53:04 If you were really worried about it, you could use N prefixes, one for each package name length. :) 02:53:31 Then it would be <3>foobar for foo:bar. 02:54:12 -!- sacho [~sacho@87-126-39-76.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 02:54:15 Or you could just use one prefix per package. 02:54:17 Pfft! 02:54:33 pjb: Your brains appear to be leaking. 02:55:02 Better to hear that than be deaf. 02:55:51 -!- quotemstr [~quotemstr@dancol.org] has left #lisp 02:57:09 jacks- [~jacks-@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 02:58:32 hi. i'm reading a dictionary of 180 thousand words into memory and want to repeatedly randomly pick a word from it. anything in stdlib for randomly picking a word from a sequence? 02:59:03 also since i have so many elements am i better off using array instead of a list? 02:59:04 jacks-: in stdlib, there's rand(3). But why do you ask on #lisp? 02:59:20 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.49.19.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:59:25 uhm because I'm programming in lisp? 02:59:52 Then why are you concerned by what's in stdlib? 03:00:13 jacks: See RANDOM. 03:00:25 why would you confuse stdlib with C's standard library in #lisp? Zhivago thanks 03:00:28 jacks: Search for the hyperspec on the web. 03:00:42 jacks: you would be better off putting the elements in an array and using RANDOM to select one 03:01:01 Or, you could just pick them as you read them in. 03:01:09 In which case you'd only need to store the ones you piked. 03:01:13 jacks: using a list would require nth which is linear in time to access the desired word...using an array is constant time 03:01:16 er, picked. 03:01:50 As long as you ignore modern memory design. 03:02:07 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:02:14 jacks: make an adjustable array and push the words onto it with vector-push-extend as you read them 03:02:50 can loop collect into array? 03:03:00 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-123-86.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:03:12 sure 03:03:14 jacks-: because in CL, there's no stdlib. 03:03:16 OliverUv_ [~gandhi@195.159.235.178] has joined #lisp 03:03:24 -!- OliverUv_ [~gandhi@195.159.235.178] has quit [Client Quit] 03:03:26 There's the CL standard, and there are libraries. 03:03:33 derrida outside of do block? 03:03:44 OliverUv_ [~gandhi@195.159.235.178] has joined #lisp 03:04:10 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-105-164.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:04:12 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 03:05:04 i'm asking if there's something like collect-into-array keyword in loop 03:05:14 kennyd: no, there's not. 03:05:49 kennyd: yeah, sorry, i thought there was i couldn't reproduce though. 03:05:56 But you can write (loop with result = (make-array size) for i from 0 ... do (setf (aref result i) something) finally (return result)) 03:06:30 kennyd: also: (map 'vector (function your-loop-body) source-sequences...) 03:06:34 noogenesis [~derekv@c-68-62-78-203.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:42 ok nice 03:06:56 xxxyyy1 [~xyxu@222.68.152.108] has joined #lisp 03:07:07 -!- derekv [~derekv@c-68-62-78-203.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:07:23 -!- xxxyyy1 [~xyxu@222.68.152.108] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:07:25 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.152.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:07:41 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.152.108] has joined #lisp 03:09:29 -!- alegend45 [~chatzilla@68-116-252-37.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 4.0.1/20110518051943]] 03:09:36 sacho [~sacho@87-126-43-140.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 03:12:23 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.49.19.21] has joined #lisp 03:12:38 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:12:44 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:35 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.152.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:13:56 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:18:30 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-174-231.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:21:09 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2003C.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:22:46 -!- noogenesis is now known as derekv 03:23:05 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 03:25:29 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.152.108] has joined #lisp 03:27:03 spiaggia` [~user@203.162.44.65] has joined #lisp 03:28:00 -!- timack [~tim@hlfx57-2b-80.ns.sympatico.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:28:03 The problem is not that I need a better way to express business requirements as code, the problem is that I have business requirements. 03:30:08 derekv: sounds a nice problem to have. 03:30:34 -!- spiaggia [~user@113.161.72.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:30:48 As opposed to no business requirements? Depends on your point of view. 03:31:41 Now you can formalize them as sexps, and then write an interpreter for this business requirement DSL :-) 03:31:48 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-132-90.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:32:09 amnesiac [~amnesiac@c-71-202-45-89.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:32:09 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@c-71-202-45-89.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 03:32:09 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 03:32:29 -!- whee [~whee@misplaced.smaertness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:33:10 whee [~whee@misplaced.smaertness.net] has joined #lisp 03:33:46 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 03:33:58 If the assumption is that if I am not up to my chin is business related BS that I also can not feed myself, then yes having business requirements is preferable to starving. Maybe. 03:34:38 n/m I am expressing myself very poorly. 03:35:09 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.152.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:35:50 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.152.108] has joined #lisp 03:35:59 I wrote the following function, but somehow it's not pretty. I was thinking about doing it as a generic funcion instead, selecting on both arguments. What is the best way to do this? http://paste.lisp.org/display/122750 03:42:16 loke: definitely. 03:42:36 loke: you can even write a single defgeneric form, since you can define methods in it. 03:42:53 pjb: really? I didn't know that. Better read up on the hyperspec 03:43:11 pjb: that deals with the number one issue I had with it; there'd be a lot of methods. 03:47:18 -!- lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@2.148.3.77.tmi.telenormobil.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:48:19 lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@2.148.3.77.tmi.telenormobil.no] has joined #lisp 03:48:56 -!- spiaggia` [~user@203.162.44.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:49:31 Kron [~Kron@98.143.100.18] has joined #lisp 03:49:39 -!- Kron [~Kron@98.143.100.18] has left #lisp 03:53:05 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:53:13 Let of Lamda (book) is a smackdown 03:53:44 Going to read On Lisp next, though thats probably out of order 03:55:46 on chapter 5, thinking i'm going to generalize the "tree-leaves" macro to operate on arbitrary subtrees 04:04:18 joshee [~joshe@c-71-56-136-18.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:06 -!- joshee [~joshe@c-71-56-136-18.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:06:11 joshee [~joshe@c-71-56-136-18.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:19 -!- joshee [~joshe@c-71-56-136-18.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:06:52 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-133-16-146.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:08:56 joshee [~joshe@2001:470:f4a6:1:2e0:4dff:fea8:4c45] has joined #lisp 04:11:55 pjb: thanks for your advice. This is my new version. Better? 04:11:56 http://paste.lisp.org/display/122751 04:12:06 -!- naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:12:47 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-162-243.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 04:13:09 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.172.246.110] has joined #lisp 04:14:31 loke: there's no (EQL NIL) method. 04:15:00 oh yeah 04:15:03 dang :-) 04:15:44 Thanks 04:15:56 OK, now that that is fixed, is that the solution you had i mind? 04:16:21 -!- jacks- [~jacks-@76.73.16.26] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)] 04:16:33 I honestly believe this is the first time I've actually taken advantage of multimethods. 04:21:57 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.172.246.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:24:54 multiple dispatch 04:25:37 derekv: hmm... Now I feel stupid. I thought multiple dispatch was the method by which multimethods are implemented? 04:25:55 Are the terms disjoint? 04:25:58 don't feel stupid 04:26:44 i said "multiple dispatch" because the term popped into my head, i'd have to go look it up to see what it means specifically 04:27:19 I thought it meant the language feature whereby the method called depends on the types of all its paremeters, not just the type of "self" like in most object oriented systems 04:27:22 Time for wikipedia I guess. I was sure that multiple dispatch was what multimethods do. :-) 04:27:37 derekv: wellm that is indeed the case. 04:27:41 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-162-243.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:28:04 From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_dispatch 04:28:05 \o/ 04:28:12 "Multiple dispatch or multimethods or function overloading is the feature of some object-oriented programming languages in which a function or method can be dynamically dispatched based on the run time (dynamic) type of more than one of its arguments" 04:28:19 We were both right. Phew. 04:28:28 \o/ 04:28:34 goal! 04:28:46 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.152.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:30:07 Looking at the examples, the CL syntax is so much nicer than anythign else. 04:30:15 The C implementation is just ridiculous. :-) 04:30:20 ahahah 04:30:28 I mean the C++ implementation 04:30:38 oh they can do that now? 04:31:22 Look at the code... 04:31:26 I think the answer is: "no" 04:31:27 :-) 04:32:44 if you check the refrence for looking to add, there is a research paper, meaning if its put in, it'll be in one or two revesions from now, eg 12~16 years 04:33:00 yay 04:33:08 new c++ has lambdas and inline functions i think... haven't used 04:33:12 I.e. by the time C++ is as old as Lisp is now 04:33:17 go figure. :-0 04:34:05 -!- whee [~whee@misplaced.smaertness.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:34:40 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.49.19.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:35:08 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.49.19.21] has joined #lisp 04:35:33 huh, other than c#, only language listed as supporting is CL, then a bunch of languages we could call pretty much not mainstream or experimental 04:35:40 whee [~whee@misplaced.smaertness.net] has joined #lisp 04:35:49 Does c# have it? 04:35:52 wow. i had no idea 04:36:50 its listed in that article 04:36:56 other than that, don't know 04:37:00 C# has multiple dispatch? I find that most surprisng 04:37:33 even if c# is a good language, not too interested in something where multiplatform means user has to install mono 04:37:46 derekv: agreed 04:37:56 and mono has always been in shaky legal ground as well 04:38:03 oh, so it does, sort of: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/curth/archive/2008/11/15/c-dynamic-and-multiple-dispatch.aspx 04:38:06 bit weird, tho 04:38:16 mono is also terribly slow, which doesn't help 04:38:37 the primary design goal of .net is lock-in 04:39:35 good lock-in requires easy entry and something to entice, since its a trap... so you'd expect good language features 04:39:42 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@S01060026f3e2a647.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: joekarma] 04:39:57 -!- lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@2.148.3.77.tmi.telenormobil.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:40:57 lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@2.148.3.77.tmi.telenormobil.no] has joined #lisp 04:41:00 rsynnott: Seems to be a proper DD implementation in c#, with two expections: The caller needs to explicitly state he needs DD, and there is no way of controlling the dispatch mechanlism. 04:41:08 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.178.205.201] has joined #lisp 04:42:04 naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has joined #lisp 04:44:33 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.49.19.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:44:52 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.152.108] has joined #lisp 04:45:01 I wonder what people of the "operator overloading is evil" crowd would think of CL 04:46:40 derekv: it is evil 04:46:50 notice that CL doesn't have it 04:47:01 it has operators? 04:47:40 arguably, all the evils of operator overloading is inherent x100 in macros :-) 04:47:48 somewhat, special forms would correspond to operators 04:47:55 That said, I hate overator overloading, but I find macros to be useful 04:48:59 loke: that's because operator overloading is a special case that has weird restrictions and is shoehorned into a shape that goes against half the things you'd want to use it for 04:49:03 -!- littlebobby [~bob@unaffiliated/littlebobby] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 04:49:45 Dunno, when I did a lot of c++, I used it all the time. It was great 04:49:53 uhh 04:50:09 I take it that you don't actually know C++ very well 04:50:35 Been a while. But maybe its because it was just me using it. 04:51:13 that's one thing, and the other is that you probably didn't have enough grasp of C++ to realise all the evil you'd been tempting :) 04:51:41 I'm not sure that I see the difference between operator overloading and multiple dispatch 04:51:48 Or maybe I'm an idiot. But I like to learn things. 04:51:49 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-190-61.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 04:52:36 I just got to looking at operators as functions. Of course, not exactly, but thats the way in c++, everything is not exactl 04:52:49 Vivitron: Traditionally, operator overloading is resolved at compile time, but multiple dispatch is resolved at runtime. 04:53:03 there are occasional approriate uses for operator overloading in C++ :) 04:53:10 they're very occasional, though 04:53:41 beach: thanks 04:58:39 You want to stick to the principle of least surprise with operator overloading... i mean, when I looked for examples of operator overloading being some great evil, it was like someone had to deal with a bug where some library was doing something horrid with it 05:00:45 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-190-61.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:01:19 only reason I was thinking about it was I was dealing with objective c, where I really wish they had it. 05:01:39 in CL, its all off topic 05:02:35 Is it possible to ask destructuring-bind to do something like: "bind the first two elements to the these two variables and ignore anything else."? So that (destructuring-bind (a b) lst), where lst is (1 2 3 4 5 6) binds a to 1 and b to 2? 05:02:40 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-190-61.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:02:57 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.178.205.201] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:04:13 Want to quit my job and become a full time student of lisp for a while... but problem is, there is a word for people who do that, we call them bums. lisp bums. 05:04:15 sanjoyd: with &rest and declare ignore, or with . nil 05:04:22 sanjoyd: (destructuring-bind (a b &rest junk) list ...) 05:04:23 05:05:24 err, not with . nil; you need &rest. 05:05:41 beach, pjb: thanks! 05:06:40 anukalp [~anukalp@112.79.172.53] has joined #lisp 05:07:31 sanjoyd: Why are you calling your variable lst rather than list? 05:07:59 I'm much more liable to consider the lack of a feature to be evil than the presence of one I can choose not to use. 05:08:22 beach: I'm actually not very clear on the various namespaces in Common Lisp. 05:08:37 derekv: therefore the feature "lisp bum" should not be an impediment for you. 05:08:38 -!- anukalp [~anukalp@112.79.172.53] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:08:54 beach: I did not know I could do that. 05:09:11 sanjoyd: OK. 05:09:51 I didn't mean anything by it. 05:10:30 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.152.108] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:10:54 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.152.108] has joined #lisp 05:11:36 I just wouldn't have a job, at least for a while. So I'd be giving something up in return for something. 05:12:47 And it was a bad pulp fiction reference. 05:13:20 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.152.108] has quit [Client Quit] 05:13:33 i must have missed that scene 05:14:05 -!- davazp [~user@63.Red-88-12-86.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:14:27 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-205-150.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:15:34 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-205-150.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 05:16:50 The scene I was badly refrecing, doesn't go anything like my memory, so, fail 05:23:45 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:28:35 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-205-150.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:28:44 symbole [~user@ool-4a5a4bdd.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 05:29:17 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-205-150.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 05:29:25 derekv: I got that reference right away 05:29:41 derekv: so it's clear that derrida hasn't watched enough good movies :-) 05:29:59 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.152.108] has joined #lisp 05:32:56 it was "so you decided to be a bum" 05:33:12 in my memory it was something like "we have a name for people like that, we call the bums" 05:34:36 It was a bad movie. 05:34:38 perhaps pjb was suggesting I could choose to be a full time student of lisp, yet not be a bum. which is, one would hope, true. 05:34:51 I was entertained by it. 05:34:55 (the movie) 05:35:53 The Simpson's spoof was funnier. 05:36:06 Did not watch. 05:37:27 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.178.195.253] has joined #lisp 05:37:53 -!- benny [~benny@i577A3143.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:38:07 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-205-150.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:38:52 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-205-150.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 05:40:56 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:44:13 Need stop talking like this. 06:00:20 -!- Nshag 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[Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:50:55 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 07:51:40 lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@2.148.3.77.tmi.telenormobil.no] has joined #lisp 07:51:46 -!- Xantoz_ [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:54:08 Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 07:54:37 malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl4-155-170.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 07:55:28 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:55:50 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 07:56:27 npoektop_ [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 07:56:31 -!- npoektop [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:56:31 -!- npoektop_ is now known as npoektop 07:56:57 kamilata [kamilata@91.148.157.122] has joined #lisp 07:59:01 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 08:01:31 hi, could you pls advise how to start IE from a Lisp process using the Win API http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa752084(v=VS.85).aspx Can I do it with CFFI for example? 08:04:24 Yes, CFFI is an option. I'd probably look for a function that just opens a URL in their default browser though, rather than specifically IE 08:04:54 you'll probably need to load the dll that contains the function you want. 08:06:17 wivlaro: thanks, I have to invoke IE directly not with a dll, so I'm not sure how to do it with CFFI 08:06:30 centipedefarmer [~centipede@97-125-189-198.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 08:07:01 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:07:52 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 08:08:18 wivlaro: it is because the environment is somehow secured and does not allow anything to go out unless comming from IE 08:10:19 well, the DLL should be one that's already present on the system 08:11:11 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@97-125-189-198.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:11:30 mishoo [~mishoo@82.137.12.184] has joined #lisp 08:11:59 actually, that looks like the c# interface. you might have better luck looking for a C function that does what you want 08:13:03 -!- pocket [~pocket_@p1026-ipbf2602hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:13:14 wivlaro: We have an application using the DLL - and it doesn't return any web responses. I'm going to write a proxy which this application will use. The proxy will be invoking IE 08:14:09 -!- sacho [~sacho@87-126-43-140.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:14:59 -!- OliverUv_ [~gandhi@195.159.235.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:18:41 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 08:19:45 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:24:09 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 08:24:10 -!- malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl4-155-170.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:24:43 malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl4-155-170.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 08:27:51 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-45.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:28:02 ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:28:06 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:29:11 The_Fellow [~The_Fello@glida.mooo.com] has joined #lisp 08:34:56 -!- yzg [~ammer@csdoor3.COMP.POLYU.EDU.HK] has left #lisp 08:37:12 nicdev [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 08:39:30 timor [~timor@port-92-195-93-37.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:43:22 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@82.137.12.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:47:54 -!- Vivitron [~user@pool-71-174-61-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:48:18 -!- cbp [~cesarbol9@189.247.121.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:52:30 -!- bsod1 [~sinan@31.141.59.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:54:34 -!- malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl4-155-170.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:54:50 malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl4-155-170.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 09:02:52 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7557aa.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:07:55 Bahman [~bahman@2.144.251.16] has joined #lisp 09:08:44 -!- Bahman [~bahman@2.144.251.16] has quit [Client Quit] 09:08:50 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.178.195.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:09:13 add^_ [~add^_^@h143n4c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 09:10:32 Joreji [~thomas@89-228.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 09:11:48 ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 09:20:00 Malvok [~Malvok@oh-71-50-211-159.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 09:21:57 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.178.194.84] has joined #lisp 09:24:43 -!- malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl4-155-170.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:24:53 malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl4-155-170.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 09:29:22 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-94-44-110-160.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 09:29:22 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-94-44-110-160.vodafone.hu] has quit [Changing host] 09:29:22 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:31:52 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:32:30 francogrex [~user@109.130.213.254] has joined #lisp 09:32:55 -!- larva [~larvanitr@ec2-46-51-171-183.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:33:00 first time i hear of this: Star Sapphire Common LISP http://www.webweasel.com/lisp/index.htm 09:33:13 anyone used it? 09:34:01 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:34:26 alama [~alama@d86-33-47-55.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 09:34:28 nope 09:34:37 odd little abandonware 09:35:40 yes abandoned since 2003... hmm weird 09:36:09 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.213.254] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:38:31 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:38:56 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:39:21 larva [~larvanitr@ec2-46-51-171-183.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 09:45:47 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 09:48:40 abandoned since the early 90s, it looks like 09:49:26 Ralith: rather late 90s, when DOS dropped from use outside some specific places 09:49:43 still, quite interesting implementation 09:50:11 ... lol 09:50:38 they do have a function called "phase-of-moon" 09:51:56 also, love the "DON'T PANIC!" in the manual 09:54:46 -!- malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl4-155-170.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:54:56 malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl4-155-170.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 09:58:56 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@78.96.101.216] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:02:50 cmatei [~cmatei@78.96.101.216] has joined #lisp 10:03:15 -!- Malvok [~Malvok@oh-71-50-211-159.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:04:43 bsod1 [~sinan@188.58.186.96] has joined #lisp 10:06:13 tcr1 [~tcr@155-dom-3.acn.waw.pl] has joined #lisp 10:07:01 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 10:07:32 francogrex [~user@109.130.213.254] has joined #lisp 10:10:15 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:11:01 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:12:23 that Sapphire common lisp is grabage 10:12:25 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C0F5A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:15:38 -!- rainyrhy [~rainyrhy@bb220-255-83-118.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:16:07 rainyrhy [~rainyrhy@bb220-255-83-118.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 10:17:33 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 10:18:48 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.152.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:19:16 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.213.254] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:20:34 lanthan [~ze@tmo-106-129.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 10:22:21 -!- Joreji [~thomas@89-228.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:22:51 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.152.108] has joined #lisp 10:24:49 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 10:25:02 minion: are you here? 10:25:50 Star Saphire Common Lisp is an implementation for 640 KB MS-DOS. Let's compare apples to apples. 10:26:54 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C0F5A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:28:30 Joreji [~thomas@89-228.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:29:09 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:40:18 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 10:41:43 daniel___ [~daniel@p5082AD06.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:43:18 -!- daniel__ [~daniel@p5082910E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:44:18 -!- lanthan [~ze@tmo-106-129.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:46:18 lanthan [~ze@tmo-106-17.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 10:46:26 Mococa [~Mococa@187.58.183.42] has joined #lisp 10:47:50 Guthur [~Guthur@host86-139-109-254.range86-139.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 10:50:25 Yuuhi [benni@p5483BCA1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:52:25 mrSpec [~Spec@pool-151-204-255-122.bstnma.btas.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:52:25 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@pool-151-204-255-122.bstnma.btas.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 10:52:25 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 10:53:27 -!- lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@2.148.3.77.tmi.telenormobil.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:55:22 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 10:55:57 -!- larva [~larvanitr@ec2-46-51-171-183.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:00:15 larva [~larvanitr@ec2-46-51-171-183.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 11:00:31 kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.237.227] has joined #lisp 11:02:08 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.58.183.42] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:03:00 lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 11:06:39 -!- npoektop [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:07:15 npoektop [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 11:12:20 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-185-7.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:14:18 urandom__ [~user@p548A3998.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:15:59 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C0F5A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:21:02 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 11:24:52 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 11:25:59 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C0F5A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:28:48 hi 11:29:00 pjb: are you here? 11:30:24 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-37-16-233.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:31:10 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:36:58 -!- slash_ [~unknown@pD955E8D6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:38:35 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 11:40:08 -!- kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.237.227] has left #lisp 11:40:38 sellout- [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:43:11 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-185-7.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:45:04 -!- kamilata [kamilata@91.148.157.122] has quit [] 11:45:38 c_arenz [~arenz@p5B2CD342.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:48:53 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:54:12 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:55:00 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 11:59:16 -!- npoektop [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:03:33 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 12:04:14 sacho [~sacho@87-126-43-140.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 12:09:03 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-93-62-183.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:10:03 -!- alama [~alama@d86-33-47-55.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Quit: alama] 12:12:10 francogrex [~user@109.130.213.254] has joined #lisp 12:12:26 sellout- [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:14:27 tab1ta [~tab1ta@host90-8-dynamic.10-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:16:29 npoektop [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 12:19:09 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.213.254] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:21:12 -!- sacho [~sacho@87-126-43-140.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:23:05 moah [~gnu@dslb-094-220-124-206.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:23:44 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-205-150.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:24:04 killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 12:28:30 -!- lanthan [~ze@tmo-106-17.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 12:29:21 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:31:13 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-159-184.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:33:15 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-153-143.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:36:54 sacho [~sacho@87-126-43-140.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 12:39:05 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 12:40:27 alama [~alama@tmp4.logic.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 12:42:55 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-19-192.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:45:30 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@p5B2CD342.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:48:21 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:48:48 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 12:48:54 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@202.161.19.210] has quit [Quit: .] 12:50:14 i have a question about quicklisp: after loading quicklisp, asdfs registry does not seem to know about the systems that quicklisp downloaded and installed. Is that on purpose? 12:52:34 _foocraft [~ewanas@78.101.138.25] has joined #lisp 12:52:39 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-177-212-194.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 12:54:29 -!- foocraft_ [~ewanas@178.152.114.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:57:59 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:59:14 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@155-dom-3.acn.waw.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:59:59 timor: it will only have the systems that were quickloaded, iirc 13:00:28 and there's a handler that fires when ASDF can't find a system passing it to Quicklisp 13:02:26 -!- drdo [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:03:19 i see. Seems to be a configuration problem with clbuild2. cannot quicload or require systems from "clbuild lisp" 13:04:02 taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has joined #lisp 13:04:44 somehow "clbuild lisp" doesnt call ql:setup, althoug its doc states that it does... 13:05:20 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:05:22 fantazo [~fantazo@178-190-239-98.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 13:05:45 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 13:06:29 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 13:07:21 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.178.194.84] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:10:49 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-51-40.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 13:11:06 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-100-184.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:11:18 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.167.219.179] has joined #lisp 13:11:21 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 13:11:37 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-45.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:13:05 OliverUv_ [~gandhi@195.159.235.178] has joined #lisp 13:18:28 -!- rainyrhy [~rainyrhy@bb220-255-83-118.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:21:43 drdo [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 13:21:43 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:22:15 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-45.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:22:52 Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:25:37 francogrex [~user@109.130.213.254] has joined #lisp 13:25:52 an example of mucking around with stella: http://francogrex.byethost2.com 13:28:58 I don't know if it's gonna be useful for anything but (that is my use of stella); I might just as well right the programs in cpp from the start 13:30:23 xan_ [~xan@94.Red-193-152-140.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:44 centipedefarmer [~centipede@97-125-189-198.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:19 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-53-18.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 13:37:17 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-51-40.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:37:17 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 13:39:12 milanj [~milanj_@178-223-162-48.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 13:39:42 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 13:40:05 gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:43:53 -!- gor[e] [~svr@79.165.187.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:43:59 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.213.254] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:46:19 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-98-113-194-183.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:31 -!- bsod1 [~sinan@188.58.186.96] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:51:23 benny [~benny@i577A30B5.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:52:50 Mococa [~Mococa@187.58.183.42] has joined #lisp 13:54:12 -!- xan_ [~xan@94.Red-193-152-140.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:01:18 suncica2222 [dfgfdgdfgd@P1-124.internet.krstarica.com] has joined #lisp 14:06:51 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-45.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:13:57 cbp [~cesarbol9@189.247.121.82] has joined #lisp 14:18:07 fantazo_ [~fantazo@178-190-233-43.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 14:18:53 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-190-239-98.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:20:27 eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 14:21:30 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:23:02 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-45.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:23:16 npoektop_ [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 14:25:28 -!- cbp [~cesarbol9@189.247.121.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:26:21 -!- npoektop [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:27:05 npoektop [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 14:27:19 -!- npoektop_ [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:27:45 wislin [~user@61.188.232.240] has joined #lisp 14:29:21 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.167.219.179] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:30:50 -!- suncica2222 [dfgfdgdfgd@P1-124.internet.krstarica.com] has left #lisp 14:31:02 cbp [~cesarbol9@189.247.121.82] has joined #lisp 14:31:50 npoektop_ [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 14:32:43 -!- npoektop [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:32:43 -!- npoektop_ is now known as npoektop 14:33:10 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.178.255.77] has joined #lisp 14:37:44 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@97-125-189-198.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:37:49 -!- wislin [~user@61.188.232.240] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:38:22 <_8david> timor: try "clbuild rm-cores" to ensure that things are set up fresh 14:40:27 carlocci [~nes@93.37.210.62] has joined #lisp 14:40:38 tcr1 [~tcr@155-dom-3.acn.waw.pl] has joined #lisp 14:41:52 Bahman [~bahman@2.144.251.16] has joined #lisp 14:42:40 Hi all! 14:43:44 centipedefarmer [~centipede@97-125-189-198.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:04 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@97-125-189-198.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:46:07 centipedefarmer_ [~centipede@97-125-189-198.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:33 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 14:48:28 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.58.183.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:52:10 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 14:52:21 I don't know how to formulate this well but I'll try... I want to know how to set a local copy of an array to a cirtain value with aref and setf. All I seem to do is set the original value so that it saves that, I just want it to be temporary set in the local copy.. 14:54:09 arrays are stored in the heap, there is no local copy 14:54:12 -!- centipedefarmer_ [~centipede@97-125-189-198.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:54:15 ah 14:54:26 that'd would explain some things... 14:55:44 Because I'm trying display a character instead of another on an array. 14:57:27 <_3b> you can make an actual cpoy with copy-seq if it is a 1d array, or alexandria:copy-array for a multi-dimensional array 14:57:58 :-/ 14:58:38 It's a (make-array (20 20)...) 2d array right? 14:58:38 <_3b> or you can save the changes and undo them, bit more work to do that reliably though 14:58:42 <_3b> yeah 14:58:53 hm 14:59:24 Well, I kinda thought about that but I don't really know how to "reverse" the whole process 14:59:40 Like if it said 0 it'll display 0 after it's displayed 2 14:59:41 add^_: write a log? 14:59:58 ... 15:00:00 <_3b> another alternative would be to keep a local set of changes, and check that first, and only look at the original if there is no value in the local version 15:00:25 <_3b> which is best depends on how you use it 15:00:31 -!- npoektop [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:00:42 Yes, write a log. Shallow binding is nice for that sort of use case. 15:00:44 how do I make local changes? I just got the impression that I couldn't make a local thingy 15:00:48 npoektop [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 15:01:22 s/thingy/copy , here I go again -.- 15:01:28 <_3b> passing it as an argument on its own doesn't make a copy 15:01:55 <_3b> you can make a copy yourself, change the original and undo the changes on exit, or store the changed values separately 15:02:07 ugh 15:02:13 what is loop's syntax for assigning the variable just once? 15:02:33 <_3b> kennyd_: WITH? as in (loop with foo = 1 ...) 15:02:42 thanks 15:03:24 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 15:03:57 pkhuong and p_l|backup : I'm not sure I understood what you meant. 15:05:16 add^_: . 15:05:37 pkhuong: Thanks :-) 15:08:49 -!- npoektop [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:10:00 c_arenz [~arenz@p5B2CC44E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:29 pnq [~nick@AC814E8D.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 15:12:43 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:16:11 doh, I fixed it, but I'll still try to learn something from what you guys said, thanks :-) 15:16:39 agumonkey [agumonkey@57.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:40 -!- agumonkey [agumonkey@57.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:21:32 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:21:46 bugQ [~bug@c-71-195-206-245.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:13 where in the hyperspec is the generic method resolving order documented? 15:23:54 -!- cbp [~cesarbol9@189.247.121.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:23:57 I'm trying to figure out exactly why method A is called instead of B 15:24:56 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@h143n4c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:25:46 loke: 15:26:07 thanks 15:26:13 ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 15:27:24 The hyperspec is organised by category; you can usually walk down the tree without too much backtracking. 15:28:46 OK, I don't entirely understand that description. Given two methods, with parameter types of say, (NUMBER INTEGER) and the other being (FLOAT T). If I then call the method with arguments (1.2 10), how come it matches (FLOAT T) and not (NUMBER INTEGER)? 15:29:02 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:29:10 Read the part where it considers the arguments left to right by default. 15:29:23 I figure it is because the FLOAT argument comes to the left and has a precise match 15:30:56 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:31:01 does someone already used TIMER (http://www.xach.com/lisp/timer/doc.html) ? 15:31:27 it's not listed on http://www.xach.com, so I'd like to know if it's production ready 15:31:31 ahh I wait a sec. It's not because it's a "precise" match, but that the FLOAT match is better than the NUMBER one? 15:31:49 add^_ [~add^_^@h143n4c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 15:32:23 right. 15:32:38 Right. I get it now. Thanks 15:33:12 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 15:33:39 is there something like (time (func)) that will return the number of seconds it took for func to execute instead of printing it out? 15:35:07 not in the standard. You can get the current time and use -, though. 15:35:24 -!- bugQ [~bug@c-71-195-206-245.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:35:37 -!- Bahman [~bahman@2.144.251.16] has quit [Quit: Farewell] 15:36:49 anything more precise than get-universal-time? that one is updated once per second 15:37:03 npoektop [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 15:37:22 you can use cffi and bind getrusage or gettimeofday 15:37:25 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@p5B2CC44E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:37:35 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:38:03 get-internal-{run,real}-time 15:38:07 you could also try assembly 15:38:13 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 15:38:42 ziga [~ziga@BSN-61-63-9.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 15:41:31 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:43:32 Bike1 [~Glossina@71-38-152-7.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:43 you could bind *trace-output* 15:45:59 if you just want to save it for a human to look at later 15:46:09 ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 15:48:13 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:48:55 ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 15:49:14 I want to print the execution in a more concise format than (time ...) 15:49:29 kennyd pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122754 15:49:38 any issues with either macro? still new to writing macros 15:50:06 _KY_ [YKY@unaffiliated/-ky-/x-0649748] has joined #lisp 15:50:09 suncica2222 [dfgfdgdfgd@P1-122.internet.krstarica.com] has joined #lisp 15:50:28 and btw why doesn't (macroexpand '(time-code-print (..))) expand the time-code macro inside the format? it gives the same output as macroexpand-1 15:50:30 kennyd_: try making it a higher order function first. 15:50:32 <_KY_> How do I know which lisp implementation I'm using? is there a flag I can test? 15:50:46 kennyd_: macroexpand only iteratively expand the *head* form. 15:50:47 <_KY_> Eg: if I'm using CLISP or not? 15:50:59 -!- suncica2222 [dfgfdgdfgd@P1-122.internet.krstarica.com] has left #lisp 15:51:01 _KY_: i think some implementations set their name in *features* 15:51:03 (lisp-implementation-version) and #+ 15:51:05 pkhuong you mean (defun time-code (&body body) .. ) ? 15:51:08 _KY_: (lisp-implementation-type) 15:51:09 er, -type, not -version 15:51:10 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:51:18 -!- Bike1 is now known as Bike 15:51:27 kennyd_: I mean (defun call-with-timing (thunk) ...) 15:51:47 ah, and then call that in a macro? 15:51:52 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 15:52:00 or avoid the macro all together 15:52:11 <_KY_> Thanks=) 15:52:41 kennyd_: right to both. 15:53:05 -!- Joreji [~thomas@89-228.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:53:06 If you make call-with-timing inlineable, there may not be any overhead, depending on the implementation. 15:53:13 (get-universal-time) => 3517494744 15:53:19 UNIX time 3517494744 is 06/18/2081 5:52pm GMT. 15:53:20 hmm 15:53:39 it's not get 15:53:44 -unixversal-time 15:54:30 Landr: read the spec. 15:54:32 well, what epoch is it using? 15:54:47 http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/25_adb.htm 15:54:56 ah, 1900 15:54:58 thanks 15:56:29 Any socket gurus around today? 15:59:07 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@216.227.116.248] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:59:15 lolsuper_ [~super_@pool-96-254-154-66.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:15 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@pool-96-254-154-66.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:59:15 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 16:00:04 -!- _KY_ [YKY@unaffiliated/-ky-/x-0649748] has left #lisp 16:00:10 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@216.227.116.248] has joined #lisp 16:02:15 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-24-147-116-20.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:24 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-45.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:04:48 -!- npoektop [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:06:20 npoektop [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 16:08:02 StrmSrfr pasted "retry connect on EINTR" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122755 16:08:02 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@216.227.116.248] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:08:19 Is this a horrible mistake? 16:08:44 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@216.227.116.248] has joined #lisp 16:10:54 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 16:11:12 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-24-147-116-20.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:14:56 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.152.108] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:19:33 StrmSrfr: yes 16:20:03 loke: story of my life. Could you explain why? 16:20:13 StrmSrfr: you're eating all interrupts 16:20:35 interruptions exist for a purpose 16:21:14 -!- alama [~alama@tmp4.logic.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Quit: alama] 16:21:30 What problem are you hoping to solve with that? 16:22:30 -!- plorasg [~plorasg@oldwww4.internection.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:22:55 -!- pnq [~nick@AC814E8D.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:23:17 Sometimes connect signals the condition for no apparent reason, and it seems the thing to do when you get EINTR is to try again. 16:23:40 He's not eating all interrupts. He's just trying to handle the standard posix mechanism. It looks okay to me. 16:23:59 StrmSrfr: EINTR is sent when the operation was interrupted by a signal 16:24:33 What if the purpose of the signal was to actually interrupt the process? 16:24:37 Couldn't that happen at any time? 16:24:46 StrmSrfr: no. only if there is a signal 16:24:59 StrmSrfr: now, arguably, that signal could be SIGALRM for example 16:25:29 If the purpose of the signal was to interrupt the process the signal handler should do so, I'd thin 16:25:31 k 16:26:39 There is an interesting aspect to this though: 16:26:41 "If connect() is interrupted by a signal that is caught while blocked waiting to establish a connection, connect() shall fail and set connect() to [EINTR], but the connection request shall not be aborted, and the connection shall be established asynchronously." 16:27:23 oh wow, I didn't know that 16:27:35 Here 16:27:37 Here 16:27:52 Here's a quote from the Unix network Programming: 16:27:53 "What we are doing [] is restarting the interrupted system call ourself. This is fine for accept, along with the functions such as read, write, select and open. But there is one function that we cannot restart ourself: connect. If this function returns EINTR, we cannot call it again, as doing so will return an immediate error. When connect is interrupted by a caught signal and is not automatically restarted, we must call select to wait for t 16:27:53 he connection to complete, as we describe in section 15.3." 16:28:20 although I think there's room in there for connect to return EINTR and have the connection request aborted anyway 16:28:41 if it is interrupted before it is "blocked waiting..." 16:28:46 plorasg [~plorasg@oldwww4.internection.com] has joined #lisp 16:29:02 StrmSrfr: I don't think so, at least if one wants to be Posix compliant: "shall not be aborted". "shall" in specs is very clear. 16:29:30 "shall" is clear, but there's a lot in that "if" 16:29:42 It doesn't just say "if connect returns EINTR" 16:30:23 StrmSrfr: Well, suffice it to say that trying to restart an interrupted connect is not the correct thing to do. 16:30:38 It looks that way 16:31:16 bummer 16:31:48 -!- plorasg [~plorasg@oldwww4.internection.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:33:52 tshauck [~tshauck@99-109-59-35.lightspeed.mssnks.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:49 -!- sausages [~sausages@balmora.robotjunkyard.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:35:20 plorasg [~plorasg@oldwww4.internection.com] has joined #lisp 16:35:43 It seems like it gets worse too. In my application one connection is as good as another, so if the first gets interrupted I could just try again and complete the transaction with a second connection. But if I were to actually code this on the application level, it seems that the first socket would be left hanging, at least until its socket object is garbage collected, which could be never. 16:36:24 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-184-204-110.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:42 sausages [~sausages@balmora.robotjunkyard.org] has joined #lisp 16:37:39 -!- plorasg [~plorasg@oldwww4.internection.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:39:01 plorasg [~plorasg@oldwww4.internection.com] has joined #lisp 16:43:34 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:44:16 Mococa [~Mococa@187.58.183.42] has joined #lisp 16:46:33 -!- milanj [~milanj_@178-223-162-48.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:47:41 -!- plorasg [~plorasg@oldwww4.internection.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:48:35 bob` [~user@207.98.72.87] has joined #lisp 16:48:38 sabalaba [~sabalaba@75-101-62-95.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:05 -!- fantazo_ [~fantazo@178-190-233-43.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:55:59 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 16:57:32 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@vpnsh0046.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 16:59:28 -!- gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:01:42 sure enough, I end up with socket is aready connected (on darwin) 17:03:12 So I guess the select hoops should be jumped through? 17:08:10 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-74-67-199-254.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:15:57 plorasg [~plorasg@oldwww4.internection.com] has joined #lisp 17:17:17 -!- ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 17:19:29 tcr2 [~tcr@155-dom-3.acn.waw.pl] has joined #lisp 17:19:30 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@155-dom-3.acn.waw.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:23:15 alama [~alama@d86-33-47-55.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 17:28:52 markskil1eck [~mark@host86-137-65-201.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:28:54 -!- plorasg [~plorasg@oldwww4.internection.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:29:04 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:30:49 -!- bob` [~user@207.98.72.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:31:03 bugQ [~bug@c-71-195-206-245.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:33 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-37-16-233.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 17:32:35 slash_ [~unknown@pD955BD89.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:20 mcstar [~mcstar@adsl-89-132-18-120.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 17:34:36 hi all 17:34:58 plorasg [~plorasg@oldwww4.internection.com] has joined #lisp 17:35:11 i think im missing some basics here: when i try to use iterate, why does sbcl says that variable X is unbound? 17:35:18 -s 17:35:34 mcstar: we're missing a lot of context to try and help you. 17:35:46 Can you paste a snippet and the error you get? 17:36:05 ok, i think i have the iterate package installed, i load it with require, and i try a simple iteration, with a for x binding 17:37:27 (iter (for x in '(1 2 3)) (print x)) 17:37:37 for example, the simplest construct 17:37:41 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.178.255.77] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:37:46 do you use the iterate package? 17:37:48 sbcl says variable x is unbound 17:37:55 (require :iterate) 17:37:59 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.178.255.77] has joined #lisp 17:38:39 mcstar: that loads the iterate system. 17:39:05 oh, whats the difference? 17:39:22 require and asdf manage loading libraries in. 17:39:29 packages are about namespacing. 17:39:56 -!- ziga [~ziga@BSN-61-63-9.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:40:01 you mean i simply have to use it? 17:40:04 fusion:iter and iterate:iter are different symbols. 17:40:07 xan_ [~xan@94.Red-193-152-140.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:18 i know i know, i dont :use it 17:40:26 right. 17:40:33 alright, a moment 17:41:17 thx 17:41:22 stupid me, sorry 17:43:23 -!- mcstar [~mcstar@adsl-89-132-18-120.monradsl.monornet.hu] has left #lisp 17:47:08 is iterate sbcl only? doesn't exist in clisp 17:47:46 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 17:48:12 -!- rootzlevel [~hpd@static.6.236.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Quit: Changing server] 17:48:31 kennyd_: it's a library. 17:50:34 tcr1 [~tcr@155-dom-3.acn.waw.pl] has joined #lisp 17:50:35 -!- tcr2 [~tcr@155-dom-3.acn.waw.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:50:49 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 17:51:58 rootzlevel [~hpd@static.6.236.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lisp 17:52:59 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-177-212-194.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:53:45 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.178.255.77] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:53:55 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-177-212-194.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:42 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:57:12 Oh, but there is no select in sb-bsd-sockets, so is it even possible to handle this situation correctly? 17:57:50 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 17:59:00 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-45.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:59:26 Vowyer [~user@71-208-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 18:00:04 -!- Vowyer [~user@71-208-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Client Quit] 18:05:16 c0mrade_ [c0mrade_@77.42.172.130] has joined #lisp 18:05:20 StrmSrfr: sbcl provides serve-event, which is based on select 18:05:49 there's also sb-unix:unix-select, which is internal, but you can always copy the definition; it's basically an FFI declaration. 18:07:07 this should be way less complicated 18:08:20 WriteLn.Console("Hello"); 18:08:50 -!- Tril [~tril@unaffiliated/tril] has left #lisp 18:09:01 Yesterday I red and watched a video about the LISP programming lagnuage. 18:09:11 I found it weird. 18:09:17 Atoms and all that stuff. 18:09:43 A basic arithmetic operation is totally different. 18:09:55 (+ 3 2 5 4) 18:10:10 Which in other languages is just 3+2+5+4 18:10:15 Some programming languages are very different than others, yes. 18:10:37 not Forth 18:11:20 I suspect that c0mrade_ has only been exposed to languages which share a fairly similar syntax. 18:11:36 StrmSrfr: blame unix. 18:12:13 I could imagine writing a client/server application with LISP. 18:12:17 How would it look like. 18:12:27 And accessing some sort of database. 18:12:29 pkhuong: I do. 18:12:39 In some cases I think LISP won't do it. 18:13:26 but it seems like sb-bsd-sockets should either hide the problem or provide the tools to address it, and it does neither 18:14:00 -!- vert2 [vert2@newshell1.bshellz.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:14:50 -!- guther [guther@newshell1.bshellz.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:14:55 Is there a way to import some kind of libraries in LISP like it's done in C/C++ or Java or any other Object Oriented Language? 18:15:12 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 18:15:20 StrmSrfr: it's a wrapper around the bsd socket stuff. There's sb-posix for more general posixness. 18:15:26 c0mrade_: yes. 18:15:27 Yes, and Lisp is object-oriented as well, and you can just call it "Lisp". 18:16:00 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:17:27 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-37-16-233.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:53 I don't even know how things work with LISP when speaking about memory and what's happening behind the scenes i.e. from a computer architectural/organizational point of view. 18:18:31 c0mrade_: you're probably right. 18:19:15 If we're talking about C/C++ for example. Let's say we're declaring an integer variable which means it's stored somewhere in memory with a size of 32-bits on the stack. 18:19:31 In the main() function. 18:20:07 What's it like in LISP? 18:20:16 absolutely not, but I'm sure Zhivago will be happy to enlighten you in ##c. 18:21:03 So mainly speaking. LISP is oriented towards what kind of applications? 18:21:12 ones for computers 18:21:23 I don't know. 18:21:59 It might not even be applications in the first place. 18:22:06 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-177-212-194.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:22:11 cOmrade, there are plenty of free introductory texts on common lisp and scheme 18:22:37 you're comments/questions are likely to be considered trolling here 18:22:45 *your 18:22:51 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-177-212-194.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:22:56 You can simply ignore them. 18:23:44 people have written many sorts of applications in lisp 18:23:53 I like the signal:noise ratio here. 18:24:46 it's also a broad family of languages, many of which are very adaptable 18:25:23 Joreji [~thomas@89-228.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:25:38 so if a lisp in front of you is not suited to a task, there's probably another you could use or modify to be suitable 18:25:49 I think it's a funny language. 18:26:00 it certainly can be 18:26:04 The funny thing is the atom thing. 18:26:09 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-4.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:26:11 what do you mean? 18:26:28 That LISP is either a list of atoms nor a list of s-expressions. 18:27:36 Do 'either' and 'nor' work that way? 18:27:56 They do in LISP. 18:27:57 hehe. 18:29:08 -!- Daev [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:29:41 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-132-189-7.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 18:29:41 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-132-189-7.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 18:29:41 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 18:30:49 c0mrade__ [c0mrade_@94.187.12.237] has joined #lisp 18:31:07 Maybe. 18:31:10 I think. 18:31:26 LISP has some more Mathematical functions. 18:31:49 Integrals and derevatives. 18:32:10 -!- c0mrade_ [c0mrade_@77.42.172.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:32:24 So if considering to do a procedure as macro vs a lambda for performance, can't the compiler make them equivelently efficient if it can know lambda the at compile? Like inlining? 18:32:55 depends on the macro, but often, yes, or close enough. 18:33:42 -!- markskil1eck [~mark@host86-137-65-201.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:33:52 The evaluation of an expression by function appliation. 18:34:27 c0mrade__: less babbling please. Read a book if you think you want to learn lisp. 18:35:03 comrade talks like a bot. 18:35:15 Yeah. 18:35:32 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 18:35:33 I am a AI bot programmed in LISP. 18:35:43 I don't know. 18:35:55 LISP dates back I think to 1950's maybe. 18:37:21 Ancient Programming Language. 18:38:24 invented by the Olmecs, I heard 18:41:09 Well, this seems to be discussed rather inconclusively in 2008: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=1226007037.3725.22.camel%40blackhole.universe.org&forum_name=sbcl-devel 18:41:14 I'm not sure if I should feel better or worse 18:42:28 Mandarin is a very weird language. It uses intonation to carry meaning, whereas most languages don't. I can imagine writing a short story about fishing in mandarin that would be nice. Its a very old language. 18:43:30 actually tonal languages are fairly common 18:43:35 it's like pulse modulation ? 18:44:06 None of the languages I can speak fluently are tonal. 18:44:19 ;] 18:44:33 apparently a bad time for IRC, this isn't the only place it's like this 18:44:41 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Exeunt IRC] 18:45:10 Yeah I was gonna say, I thought tone was relatively common. 18:46:14 I wonder what was bothering him? Lack of activity or my sarcasm or what 18:46:44 Maybe we're being invaded by markov chains 18:47:05 I for one am bothered by this connect nonsense. 18:47:15 I forgot all my math 18:47:35 Oh don't worry, I don't know what markov chains are. 18:48:28 Seems more like a pattern matcher than a Markov chain. 18:48:58 I definitely don't know what those are! 18:51:14 Markov Chainly ... a little man that hides at your place of work then leave memos/letters/signs/emails signed by the management with slightly nonsensical new policies. 18:51:23 I may have written one or the other though; it was pretty hilarious. I loaded it with Naggum quotes and then it would say things like "help! I'm lost in an n-dimensional universe and failure makes you rethink and study harder." 18:52:22 or "Act from reason, and I could tell you, but then I know Lisp are doomed to reinvent it." 18:52:34 That sounds like a Markov chain. 18:52:54 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-210-13.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:53:06 What do you call one of those programs that digests a bunch of text and then spits out random prose thats nonsense but sounds like the voice of whoever you fed in. 18:53:39 Markov. A pattern matcher is more like ELIZA. 18:53:51 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-210-13.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:54:28 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-185-7.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:54:37 I think a dissociator does that, but might not be a markov chain 18:54:46 oh, heh, the two are connected, 18:54:52 neat 18:56:44 I didn't put very many quotes in, but it got a lot better once I stuck it on IRC without telling anyone and had it absorb/respond to whatever people said. 18:57:08 much funnier than c0mrade__ 19:00:54 stis [~stis@host-90-235-77-23.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 19:01:31 -!- cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.42.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:02:35 HG` [~HG@p5DC04A1A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:55 gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:14 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-133-37-106.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:03:17 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-133-37-106.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has left #lisp 19:03:38 -!- gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:03:43 ahhh 19:03:45 its a wonderful day 19:04:07 -!- Landr [~user@dD5770F8D.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:07:39 cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:09 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-184-204-110.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:08:12 -!- nicdev [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: nicdev] 19:11:07 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 4.0.1/20110413222027]] 19:12:42 derekv: that was from Illuminatus 19:13:37 I've been trying to make something like a Markov chain that responds conversationally instead of just generates, but haven't really come up with something 19:13:50 s/something/anything/ 19:13:52 -!- OliverUv_ [~gandhi@195.159.235.178] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:14:19 razieliyo [~user@unaffiliated/razieliyo] has joined #lisp 19:15:01 do you think "land of lisp" is a good book to start with lisp? 19:15:31 many people like it 19:15:59 its very nice 19:16:17 I get stucked because he's always introducing new concepts 19:16:25 but I think that will be common to every book 19:16:57 I'd like to have some exercises to go on with lisp and get used to it, but no book has exercises of that kind 19:17:00 -!- StrmSrfr [~user@208.72.159.205] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:17:07 StrmSrfr [~user@208.72.159.205] has joined #lisp 19:17:07 at least no book I have seen 19:18:17 Someone should write a book of beginner programming exercises, like Euler but easy 19:18:30 yes, just exercises 19:18:33 and no more 19:18:46 start with "Hello, world" and go from there. 19:19:23 *dlowe* puts another entry into his someday-maybe book 19:19:25 '(hello world) 19:19:31 hahaha 19:19:35 I'll buy it 19:19:48 (write-line "Hello, world") 19:19:58 (defun hello-world () (princ "Hello world")) 19:20:04 That would depend on what you want to do, wouldn't it? You could have a book with Euler-ish exercises, a completely different one with interpreter exercises, etc. 19:20:31 Bike: I was thinking more of exercises to learn the basics of a language with. 19:20:36 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-45.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:20:42 dlowe: anyway, Euler page is a good choice to go on, you're right 19:20:52 X-Scale` [email@89.180.168.58] has joined #lisp 19:21:08 razieliyo: Did you try out PAIP? 19:21:08 but it's that, I want to go into the programming issue 19:21:59 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 19:22:03 dlowe: What I mean is that what the basics are would change depending on where you want to go; for example, EXP might be early on in solving geometry programs, but never show up in networking. 19:22:10 add^_: what's that, a weird acronymous? 19:22:21 -!- X-Scale [email@2001:470:1f08:b3d::2] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:22:22 Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming, yes. 19:22:33 Paradigms of AI Programming 19:22:38 Doh 19:22:42 You beat me to it 19:22:46 bsod1 [~sinan@31.141.98.213] has joined #lisp 19:22:46 and what's that? a book? a page? just a bunch of paradigms? 19:22:55 Bike: I think there are enough exercises of general utility to make such a project worthwhile 19:23:17 It's a book, with several projects demonstrating early models of AI. 19:23:51 dlowe: Sure, I'm just thinking farther ahead, I guess... I've gotten a bit frustrated with books of basics ending before I feel I've done anything "real". 19:23:55 Bike: sure, thanks! 19:24:41 Bike: I actually think I'm going to try to write such a thing. After all, how hard could it be? (haha) 19:24:55 razieliyo: You might also try just taking on a project for yourself, some medium-sized thing you want to do. 19:24:57 dlowe: as hard as you want 19:24:58 Heh, good luck. 19:25:04 razieliyo: that's true 19:25:18 Bike: yes, but I really don't know what to do with lisp just right now 19:25:40 any suggestions for a medium-sized project? 19:25:45 Don't think of what you want to do with Lisp, think of what you want to do with the computer. 19:25:51 something you may have done for that purpose 19:26:27 razieliyo: my starter project is a game :-) 19:26:39 Bike: yes, ok, but for example with C++ I could do some simple ask-and-answer game 19:26:45 a simple game I may have to say :-P 19:26:48 and... well, I think I can do it in lisp as well =) 19:26:55 razieliyo: so do it! 19:27:01 the point is that, would I need some extra libraries? 19:27:08 razieliyo: nope 19:27:18 or better than that, should I get into some extra libraries to start with this? 19:27:36 I think it's better to keep just lisp and nothing more 19:27:42 ask and answer game? not really. 19:27:50 If you feel unsecure about how to do something, look at somebody else code, or ask here :-) 19:28:06 add^_: yes, that will help 19:28:12 thank you all, really 19:28:35 :-) 19:29:50 and just one more thing 19:30:07 should I end up reading my book before doing something real? 19:30:16 or isn't so bad to start just now that I know some concepts? 19:30:38 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-210-13.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:31:00 razieliyo: some things are easier to learn from a book 19:31:10 razieliyo: and it helps to have something to refer back to 19:31:52 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:31:52 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:32:04 I'd say do both, but that's just me.. 19:32:07 ok, so I'll finish lol '(land of lisp) 19:32:12 Ah 19:32:13 Nice 19:32:17 I liked that book 19:32:18 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 19:32:25 I'll just make some simple examples as I'm reading 19:32:35 add^_: it's really nice for a begginer, isn't it? 19:32:54 it explains everything with a simple game 19:33:02 line by line 19:33:10 I like that =) 19:33:19 It is, the only part I wasn't so found of was the part with uh... GTA thingy 19:33:21 not for a common language, but yes for lisp 19:33:42 Chapter 8 I think 19:33:45 GTA? 19:33:48 grand theft auto? 19:33:55 wait 19:34:14 lol yes 19:34:17 it's chapter 8 19:34:25 wurmpus 19:34:34 Grand Theft Wurmpus 19:34:40 Wumpus* 19:34:47 is it also a game? 19:34:51 Yep 19:35:02 nice 19:36:50 Doh, my bro just commented on my program "Woah, that's a lot of parentheses"... 19:37:12 I found some exercises intended for C++, but it could be funny to do it in lisp 19:37:14 here is it 19:37:25 oh? 19:37:30 http://cplusplus.com/forum/articles/12974/ 19:37:33 find for graduation 19:37:36 it's about rabbits 19:37:49 there are also radiactive rabbits 19:38:04 Nice 19:38:22 Patzy_ [~something@bro29-1-82-245-180-56.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:26 so fun is guaranteed 19:38:27 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-197.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:38:49 :-D 19:39:30 -!- Patzy_ [~something@bro29-1-82-245-180-56.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:39:39 Patzy_ [~something@bro29-1-82-245-180-56.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:43 -!- Patzy [~something@bro29-1-82-245-180-56.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 19:40:42 -!- Patzy_ is now known as Patzy 19:41:09 ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 19:42:37 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:44:42 PAIP also contains exercises =) 19:44:45 thanks for that 19:44:45 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-197.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:44:54 -!- moah [~gnu@dslb-094-220-124-206.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 19:45:11 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-74-67-199-254.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:45:19 vert2 [vert2@newshell1.bshellz.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:20 HG`` [~HG@p5DC04E33.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:51:17 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:51:45 quotemstr [~quotemstr@dancol.org] has joined #lisp 19:51:56 Could one, in principle, implement Scheme as a macro package for CL? 19:52:29 (Well, it's trivially possible because both the CL macro system and the CL runtime semantics are Turing-complete. You know what I mean.) 19:52:53 And the answer is no, not without practically rewriting the entire program. Thanks. 19:53:31 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 19:53:41 -!- HG` [~HG@p5DC04A1A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:57:33 rosario [~rosario@p4FCDDE04.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:40 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 19:58:30 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 19:58:50 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 19:59:23 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-74-67-199-254.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:00:26 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.58.183.42] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:00:58 -!- billitch [~billitch@bastille.ma3.tv] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:02:11 -!- HG`` [~HG@p5DC04E33.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:02:40 HG` [~HG@p5DC04E33.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:59 -!- HG` [~HG@p5DC04E33.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:05:40 Vowyer [~sebas@71-208-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 20:06:00 -!- X-Scale` [email@89.180.168.58] has quit [Quit: Time left until the Epochalypse: 26yrs 30wks 3days 19hrs 8mins 7secs] 20:07:48 StephenFalken [email@2001:470:1f08:b3d::2] has joined #lisp 20:09:33 -!- eddayyy [~etate@cpc2-slam5-2-0-cust373.2-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:14:21 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-165-104.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:14:38 -!- y3llow [~y3llow@111-240-165-104.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:15:31 s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-165-106.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:15:33 y3llow [~y3llow@111-240-165-106.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:40 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:20:15 -!- Joreji [~thomas@89-228.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:20:16 Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@1807ds2-noe.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 20:21:44 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:22:06 Darkwolf31 [~Darkwolf3@cpe-76-87-104-80.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:22:51 nicdev [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 20:29:02 -!- Darkwolf31 [~Darkwolf3@cpe-76-87-104-80.socal.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 20:30:28 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:31:42 -!- Vowyer [~sebas@71-208-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:33:21 -!- nicdev [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: nicdev] 20:34:24 -!- c0mrade__ [c0mrade_@94.187.12.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:35:01 -!- bugQ [~bug@c-71-195-206-245.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:35:58 -!- sacho [~sacho@87-126-43-140.btc-net.bg] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:37:58 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 20:39:34 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:39:52 -!- slash_ [~unknown@pD955BD89.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:40:00 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 20:42:33 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:43:01 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 20:48:33 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:49:06 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-74-67-199-254.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:52:21 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@75-101-62-95.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:52:26 quotemstr: the only difficulty is call/cc. This is somewhat incompatible with CL control structures (catch/throw/unwind-protect). So you need indeed to translate the program globally, if you want to implement call/cc entirely. 20:52:40 quotemstr: otherwise, there's pseudo, a r4rs scheme implemented in CL. 20:54:50 ubii_ [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:12 okflo [~user@91-115-95-51.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 20:55:12 -!- ubii_ [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:55:29 -!- ubii [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:55:52 ubii [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:27 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7557aa.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:56:53 -!- bsod1 [~sinan@31.141.98.213] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:57:38 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:58:36 pjb: Also, the namespace issue. 21:00:10 cl-irc loses op if one changes nick. Sorry, going to sleep right now, will write to the mailing list tomorrow. 21:00:11 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A3998.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:01:58 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:02:27 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 21:02:48 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-132.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:03:38 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@155-dom-3.acn.waw.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:09:55 -!- xan_ [~xan@94.Red-193-152-140.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:10:36 xan_ [~xan@94.Red-193-152-140.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:37 quotemstr: namespace is not a problem, since package are strictly more powerful than scheme. 21:12:07 littlebobby [~bob@unaffiliated/littlebobby] has joined #lisp 21:12:37 quotemstr: it's trivial to implement scheme symbols when you have CL packages, but it's much harder to implement CL packages when you only have scheme symbols! 21:12:54 -!- rosario [~rosario@p4FCDDE04.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:12:57 yeah, but (list list) will do different things in CL than scheme 21:13:15 actually I'm not qualified to "yeah" that, but the second thing I said 21:14:03 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 21:14:08 StrmSrfr: not in (scheme (list list)). 21:14:18 -!- _foocraft [~ewanas@78.101.138.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:16:13 HG` [~HG@p5DC04E33.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:59 ska``` [~user@ppp-115-87-246-227.revip4.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 21:18:28 -!- okflo [~user@91-115-95-51.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:20:01 there are probably some reader differences as well 21:20:11 I wish you could customize the reader more in CL 21:20:20 StrmSrfr: a macro can translate symbols. 21:20:45 StrmSrfr: for example, LOOP translates the keywords such as for or xyz:for or :for into the same thing. 21:20:47 -!- ska`` [~user@ppp-115-87-246-227.revip4.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:21:05 it might be a lot of work 21:21:11 StrmSrfr: there's no way to customize the CL reader more: you can change entirely the lexical layer! 21:21:31 StrmSrfr: no, it's trivial: (gethash (symbol-name x) *sym-table*) 21:22:00 what if you want to make it read "A-B" as two symbols 21:22:09 pjb: I recall reaching a limit in discussion with beach once, but you won't hit it trying to implement scheme 21:22:19 -!- ska``` [~user@ppp-115-87-246-227.revip4.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:22:43 ebw1 [~ewolf@krlh-4d034090.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:52 StrmSrfr: use a normal macro to go over symbols and transform them this way? 21:22:55 so, emacs-lisp is a lisp dialect itself, isn't it? 21:22:59 Where do the names "setf" and "setq" come from? 21:23:28 Bike: "SET Field" (or was it form?) and "SET Quoted" 21:23:40 hm, thanks 21:23:54 razieliyo: yes, different from CL though, such as in scoping. 21:23:54 -!- ebw [~ewolf@krlh-4d021c8d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:24:08 STF includes extra stuff like undrstanding of places, while SETQ simply takes the arguments as quoted 21:24:21 *SETF 21:24:53 Yeah, I know what they do, but this book mentions "set field" as "setf" and I was wondering if that was the meaning, since in context "field" is one of the GC-used bits, not the value. 21:25:13 -!- quotemstr [~quotemstr@dancol.org] has left #lisp 21:25:39 it would be more helpful to think of it as set form, probably, no matter what the etymology 21:26:20 p_l|backup: it sounds tricky, breaking symbols apart and putting them together. You gotta go with what you're comfortable with, but I'd avoid it 21:26:52 p_l|backup: what was the limit you mentioned? 21:26:54 StrmSrfr: except that form has iirc rather different meaning than field 21:27:01 Joreji [~thomas@89-228.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:27:04 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:27:58 StrmSrfr: we ended up with something that required direct handling of letters on reader level, that is, with standard reader interface, it required making a reader macro for each letter supported in source code 21:28:17 well, each character 21:28:19 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-132.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:28:29 StrmSrfr: there's no difficulty to read A-B as (- a b). In general, you can do anything, buy installing a reader macro for each character. 21:28:48 don't remember exactly what it was, I think something related to using standard reader to force non-interning behaviour :D 21:29:15 I suppose that's true but installing millions of reader macros isn't my idea of a good time 21:29:20 StrmSrfr: the only thing, is that you must organize your lexical analyser as an event loop instead of a classical read loop but if you use a table-based lexical analyser generator, that's no problem. 21:29:56 StrmSrfr: so I prepared a hack that I want to turn into CDR document that adds non-interning reader to CL 21:30:08 StrmSrfr: millions of reader macros is for the conforming option. You can also do things in implementation specific ways. 21:30:16 wow 21:30:39 that all sounds pretty intense 21:31:23 StrmSrfr: but the point is that we started from a macro, and there, you don't need to implement reader tricks to re-interpret the symbols. 21:31:37 (infix a-b) --> (- a b) is trivial. 21:32:04 you'd have to parse the name of a-b 21:32:28 Yes. Starting from a string, you can implement a normal lexer and parser. No need for any reader macro trick. 21:32:57 There's a little difficulty in managing parentheses, since they're not characters, but sexps, but nothing hard. 21:33:39 -!- tshauck [~tshauck@99-109-59-35.lightspeed.mssnks.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: tshauck] 21:33:39 it seems unfair that you have to implement a lexer when the guy that wrote the CL implementation already did 21:34:08 it's odd that we get reader macros but then other things are set in stone 21:34:15 StrmSrfr: not really. We cannot really say there's a lexer in the lisp reader. Well, apart for the integers and floating points. 21:34:29 "abc" is not lexed, it's a reader macro. 21:34:37 + is not lexed it's a mere symbol... 21:34:39 I think numbers might have been the thing that bothered me 21:34:44 (a b c) is not lexed, it's a reader macro. 21:34:45 ... 21:35:07 You have access to the lexer with parse-integer (and read-from-string for floats). 21:35:16 but you can't change it 21:36:10 You can write another. 21:36:35 and then use a couple dozen reader macros to wire it in; i suppose so 21:36:54 You could also just write your own reader 21:36:58 For those of you who know Nate Froyd (froydnj), he was rushed to the hospital this morning with what they think is a heart infection. 21:37:10 Those who swing that way are asked to pray for him 21:38:59 god please make nate sound 21:39:10 amen 21:39:11 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:39:36 mrSpec [~Spec@pool-151-204-255-122.bstnma.btas.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:39 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@pool-151-204-255-122.bstnma.btas.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:39:39 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 21:41:28 and please make heart growing possible 21:41:42 I wanted to add something like (let ((*reader-nointern* t)) (read...)) 21:41:43 so that the orgian mafia dies! 21:41:52 organ* 21:42:23 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Quit: Whee.] 21:42:47 lanthan [~ze@p54B7B585.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:42:53 It /would/ be nice if you could hook into the string->symbol-or-number conversion sometimes. (12Km -> #, foo -> #:foo, or whatever) Or replace the entire reader in a way that'll get picked up by compile-file and friends (literate programming ala Knuth or something like Perl's POD). 21:44:06 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 21:45:03 urandom__ [~user@p548A3998.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:03 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:45:15 pinterface: uninterned number? 21:45:36 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 21:45:59 I was going for UNIT-ed, actually. As in has-a-unit. 21:46:35 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 21:46:44 I thought it had been united with its unit 21:47:05 there might be a need for uninterned numbers sometimes 21:48:01 -!- cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:48:47 StrmSrfr: why? a friend of mine already has a library to add units and dimensions to numbers. 21:49:12 the library is even able to convert units within one dimension before calculating the result. 21:49:21 (creating compatible units) 21:49:24 I don't know. 21:49:30 That library sounds pretty cool though. 21:50:19 That the one in the CMU AI repository? 21:50:34 Can in handle nonmultiplicative scale changes? 21:50:39 -!- alama [~alama@d86-33-47-55.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Quit: alama] 21:50:48 yea. it's probably going to be a big part of his masters thesis, because it's a library which also does matrix manipulation with separate units on each value 21:51:01 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:51:09 pinterface: no. brand new. 21:51:17 Oooh. 21:51:37 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 21:52:14 (not released yet) 21:53:38 that sounds really neat 21:54:16 the library is able to infer compatibility of values if you declare the types of the matrices 21:54:39 ie if it can do the requested multiplication, even without doing the true multiplication 21:54:41 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:54:47 actual multiplication 21:55:03 -!- razieliyo [~user@unaffiliated/razieliyo] has left #lisp 21:56:07 if you tell it to multiply meters and square meters it would give you cubic meters? 21:56:29 yes. 21:56:43 homie: please, keep yourself updated with current scientific advances. People and political press is useless, you can drop it! http://www.ted.com/talks/anthony_atala_growing_organs_engineering_tissue.html 21:56:57 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:57:07 pnq [~nick@AC816CF5.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 21:58:22 tshauck [~tshauck@99-109-59-35.lightspeed.mssnks.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:24 -!- stis [~stis@host-90-235-77-23.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:00:54 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:02:36 -!- ebw1 [~ewolf@krlh-4d034090.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:03:04 rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:03:59 Good morning everyone! 22:08:12 beach: hi! 22:09:19 night. 22:14:05 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 22:14:11 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:17:02 -!- HG` 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23:54:49 Hello 23:55:00 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-93-37.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:55:07 hi drdo 23:55:54 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]