00:02:05 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:02:25 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 00:02:57 -!- waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-5d852545.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: WTF? leaving!] 00:03:53 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:05:09 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:05:33 -!- xan_ [~xan@190.Red-193-152-189.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:06:47 aleron [~Brad@cpe-098-025-004-008.sc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:10:18 antifuchs: slime-list-implementations works great. how does one quit top-level sbcl in slime? 00:10:34 I always use ,quit 00:12:56 pjb: Yes, I think you are right. For SICL I finally settled on writing docstrings that would work for SICL but also for all reasonable modern implementation, and then add a paragraph "Portability notes" that states what the Common Lisp HyperSpec says and how that might influence the behavoir of other implementations. 00:13:03 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-169.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:06 -!- rvncerr [~rvncerr@85.10.202.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:13:13 rvncerr [~rvncerr@85.10.202.107] has joined #lisp 00:13:17 -!- rvncerr [~rvncerr@85.10.202.107] has quit [K-Lined] 00:14:39 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:15:46 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@80-218-247-218.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:15:49 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 00:16:09 mechnik: i ,quit 00:16:10 -!- glidesurfer [~glidesurf@2002:5796:7d3b:0:230:5ff:fe37:7a8d] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:17:58 antifuchs: is ,quit an emacs command? it works for both clisp and sbcl in SLIME, clisp also take (quit) as it does in terminal 00:18:19 mechnik: ,quit is a slime command 00:18:27 thank you 00:19:35 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 00:21:35 -!- ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:21:35 -!- easyE [e6bmLqVCQa@panix2.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:21:58 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:24:11 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 00:28:35 glidesurfer [~glidesurf@2002:4fcd:cc59:0:230:5ff:fe37:7a8d] has joined #lisp 00:29:13 Kruppe [~user@CPE00222d128ba2-CM00222d128b9e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:30:29 -!- Deathaholic [~Mococa@177.42.215.62] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:31:06 Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.215.62] has joined #lisp 00:35:59 michael [~michael@117.32.153.145] has joined #lisp 00:36:03 antoni [~user@33.pool85-53-32.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 00:36:25 -!- michael is now known as Guest65036 00:37:48 zmv [~daniel@c9533906.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 00:40:03 -!- pyrony [~epic@office1.klout.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:41:45 is the state of x undefined after (sort x #'<) ? or does destructively mean that it is in-place? 00:43:16 treat it as undefined 00:43:23 Deathaholic [~Mococa@177.42.215.62] has joined #lisp 00:43:27 -!- bege [~bege@S0106001cf0520ea3.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:43:28 you should be depending only on the return value 00:43:52 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.255] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:46:02 dlowe: Alright, thanks :) 00:46:41 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.215.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:49:05 -!- aleron [~Brad@cpe-098-025-004-008.sc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:49:22 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483DE98.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:50:09 am0c [~am0c@112.149.169.21] has joined #lisp 00:51:03 -!- naiv [~quassel@ARennes-652-1-46-66.w86-214.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:54:54 naiv [~quassel@ARennes-652-1-14-227.w2-10.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:55:19 -!- cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:56:29 cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:57:00 -!- ajay [~ajay@64.124.34.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:57:43 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc12-cdif12-2-0-cust276.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:59:38 -!- vervic [~vervic@v254-135.vps.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Quit: vervic] 01:04:19 Kruppe: dlowe is correct, but I'll expand a bit. Destructive operations have the advantage that they don't cons up a new structure (and thus create garbage to be collected). However, there's no guarantee of what state x will be left in afterward, so they must only be applied to objects that you _know_ will not be used by anything else after the operation has been performed. 01:06:05 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:08:23 -!- mechnik [4b48807a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.72.128.122] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:08:47 -!- Reaper507 [~Reaper507@mna75-11-88-161-196-58.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 4.0.1/20110413222027]] 01:08:57 mechnik_1 [~whoami@c-75-72-128-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:09:30 -!- mechnik_1 [~whoami@c-75-72-128-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:09:58 they *may* not cons a new structure 01:10:17 they're certainly allowed to 01:11:09 True, if it's more efficient than re-using the one that was supplied. 01:12:57 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:14:46 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[~sabalaba@173-164-230-78-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:44:20 jfleming: ah, thanks for the elaboration :) 01:45:19 I figure a bit of context helps :) 01:47:48 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216.239.45.19] has quit [Quit: Offline] 01:49:04 aei_ [~aei@c-98-197-118-188.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:49:04 -!- aei_ [~aei@c-98-197-118-188.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:51:26 -!- aei [aei@50.8.14.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:51:47 aei [~aei@c-98-197-118-188.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:32 aei_ [~aei@c-98-197-118-188.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:32 -!- aei_ [~aei@c-98-197-118-188.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:56:27 -!- aei [~aei@c-98-197-118-188.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:57:12 aei [~aei@c-98-197-118-188.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:53 sabalabas 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03:37:33 hello wislin 03:41:35 What are the steps required to start an SBCL session from an Xterm window, and then read character by character without waiting for newline and without echoing? 03:47:20 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-222-46.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 03:48:46 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has joined #lisp 03:52:47 -!- redline6561-work [~redline65@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 03:53:14 spiaggia: play with ioctls. 03:54:43 gko [~gko@223-139-75-211.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 03:56:07 EricAhn__ [~EricAhn@121.138.70.61] has joined #lisp 03:58:16 -!- EricAhn_ [~EricAhn@121.138.70.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:00:56 -!- scottj [~scott@206.212.250.58] has left #lisp 04:02:16 -!- ubii [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:02:38 ubii [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:17 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.155.7] has 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[~quadbook@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 04:26:24 zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has joined #lisp 04:27:04 -!- EricAhn__ [~EricAhn@121.138.70.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:30:58 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:32:35 promus [~quickstac@cpe-67-243-40-160.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:35:56 fusss [~chatzilla@lushevents.net] has joined #lisp 04:38:13 is there a format control string for _downcasing_ printout? 04:39:47 <|3b|> ~( ? 04:40:36 fusss: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/a-few-format-recipes.html 04:40:39 :) 04:40:57 I'm having some awful time with cl-who 04:41:07 mrnex2010 [~mrnex2010@fixed-203-133-122.iusacell.net] has joined #lisp 04:41:29 -!- felideon [~felideon@adsl-98-64-196-82.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: zzz] 04:41:40 trying to render something as instead of 04:43:30 is there any lib or codebase of high level functions that someone could point me to? 04:43:46 mrnex2010: to do what? 04:45:56 fuss: probably to operate on data structures, or something to program on higher level than bare lisp 04:47:01 um... 04:47:16 CL has many built in "high level" functions 04:47:28 to operate on non-cons cells 04:47:39 mrnex2010: http://cliki.net has various generic utilities. Alexandria is one. 04:47:56 You're being vague. What precisely do you have in mind? 04:48:12 mrnex2010: start here :-) http://www.cliki.net/Online%20Tutorial 04:49:10 <|3b|> fusss: see who:*html-empty-tag-aware-p* and who:*html-empty-tags* 04:50:17 |3b|: I was bindings these locally. lemme see .. 04:50:26 <|3b|> (and make sure they are set when macro is run, not just LET bound around the macro expansion site 04:50:26 Bike: yes sorry for that, is there some lib like on-lisp/let-over-lambda stuff? 04:50:31 mrnex: Alexandria might be what you want. 04:50:47 Oh, basic utility stuff, then you should probably check alexandria, yeah. 04:50:59 Although that question is so vague as to be essentially unanswerable. 04:51:25 :D 04:52:14 fusss thx for the link, im lookin forward to read the "tutorial on good lisp" slides 04:52:22 -!- Quadrescence [~quadbook@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:52:27 |3b|: thanks 04:55:27 -!- zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:56:08 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 04:56:36 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 04:58:11 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:00:20 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 05:00:41 Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #lisp 05:02:50 pkhuong: Do you happen to know how SBCL gets informed about a change in window size of an Xterm? 05:04:58 -!- mrnex2010 [~mrnex2010@fixed-203-133-122.iusacell.net] has quit [Quit: mrnex2010] 05:06:20 longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has joined #lisp 05:13:27 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has joined #lisp 05:13:59 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 05:17:03 anonchik [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has joined #lisp 05:18:01 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 05:20:13 <|3b|> spiaggia: (sb-sys:enable-interrupt sb-posix:sigwinch (lambda (&rest a) (format t "changed!~%"))) ? 05:20:21 -!- Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:20:36 *|3b|* wonders if it might be easier to just uses some curses bindings though 05:21:28 -!- cbp [~cesarbol9@189.247.6.112] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:21:50 |3b|: Thanks. And yes, it probably would be easier. 05:22:40 -!- promus [~quickstac@cpe-67-243-40-160.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:30:59 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:33:52 Asher_ [~Asher@CPE-124-184-237-113.lns7.cht.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 05:34:50 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 05:36:06 mrnex2010 [~mrnex2010@189.146.100.177] has joined #lisp 05:36:58 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:37:36 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 05:37:42 hrm. quicklisp's slime is easy to install _and_ elegant, as promised. 05:37:59 tcr1 [~tcr@80-218-247-218.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 05:38:47 thanks for the warning, beach, antifuchs 05:39:07 glad it was helpful to you (: 05:43:45 -!- sellout- [~Adium@212.3.9.50] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:45:31 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 05:46:20 Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:47:06 -!- Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:49:03 -!- lanthan [~ze@p54B7E429.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 05:49:52 -!- Asher_ [~Asher@CPE-124-184-237-113.lns7.cht.bigpond.net.au] has quit [] 05:52:40 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:53:44 nunb [~nundan@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 05:53:51 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:54:12 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-222-46.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:55:03 greaver [~DCA@94.126.185.1] has joined #lisp 05:55:45 So how about using sb-posix:tcgetattr and sb-posix:tcsetattr? 05:56:27 -!- pnq [~nick@172.162.150.189] has quit [Quit: sleep] 05:56:45 -!- greaver [~DCA@94.126.185.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:58:11 greaver [~DCA@94.126.185.1] has joined #lisp 06:04:06 -!- _foocraft [~ewanas@89.211.229.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:09:40 -!- spurvewt [~fess@gate113.iba.by] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:14:29 tsanhwa [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has joined #lisp 06:14:33 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 06:16:25 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:17:11 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:19:23 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-135-202.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 06:19:56 -!- somnium [~user@adsl-98-65-189-155.dab.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 06:21:10 -!- nunb [~nundan@121.243.225.226] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 06:22:41 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:7a2b:cbff:fed0:c11c] has joined #lisp 06:22:41 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:7a2b:cbff:fed0:c11c] has quit [Changing host] 06:22:41 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 06:23:11 nunb [~nundan@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 06:25:16 -!- nunb [~nundan@121.243.225.226] has quit [Client Quit] 06:26:31 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-222-46.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:26:44 -!- tsanhwa [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:28:07 greaver1 [~DCA@94.126.185.1] has joined #lisp 06:29:03 -!- greaver [~DCA@94.126.185.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:30:23 common-lisp.net guys: when the server was reinstalled, did mailman configuration get copied? Perhaps I'm just doing it wrong (and I certainly don't recall my mailman administration passwords), but it looks to me like there's suddenly nonsense going on again. 06:31:52 E.g. spam coming through simply because of a faked foo@common-lisp.net sender address, which is one of the most annoying mailman defaults ever. I thought I had turned that off one by one for all my lists... 06:33:49 splittist [~splittist@76.81.202.62.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:34:02 Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:34:41 -!- greaver1 [~DCA@94.126.185.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:36:35 now when you say it actually it stopped doing that for "my" lists 06:36:41 -!- nannto [~nanto@pee5b70.tokyff01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:36:46 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:36:49 iirc I was getting those daily stupid mails but not anymore 06:37:21 nannto [~nanto@pee5b70.tokyff01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:37:45 I'm not getting a mailman reminder, it just lets the spam through. 06:39:27 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:39:59 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 06:40:32 greaver [~DCA@94.126.185.1] has joined #lisp 06:43:21 morning 06:45:28 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:46:02 good morning 06:46:34 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:46:39 -!- mrnex2010 [~mrnex2010@189.146.100.177] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:46:40 mrnex2010_ [~mrnex2010@189.146.100.177] has joined #lisp 06:50:09 jabujabu [~user@175.124.94.167] has joined #lisp 06:52:32 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-170-45.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:52:58 s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-170-45.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 06:53:56 -!- austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:54:18 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.236.132] has joined #lisp 06:55:18 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-94-37.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:56:23 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-105-78.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 06:57:44 -!- mrnex2010_ [~mrnex2010@189.146.100.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:01:44 Harag [~phil@dsl-242-251-166.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:02:29 e-user [~e-user@nat/nokia/x-xzibpsozxwiuitfq] has joined #lisp 07:04:35 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 07:09:28 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-2-242.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:10:36 hi 07:10:43 -!- Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:12:32 aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:12:41 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-74-110.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:12:41 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 07:16:56 lanthan [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:18:16 -!- lanthan [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 07:18:43 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-105-78.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:19:10 lanthan 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beach [~user@116.118.5.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:51:56 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:52:28 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-194-96.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 09:58:01 -!- _pw_ [~user@125.34.46.192] has left #lisp 09:59:04 -!- zomgbie_ [~jesus@85-127-141-252.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:59:20 Hello 09:59:52 Hello 10:00:02 Hi, pjb 10:02:09 Yesterday someone mentioned Paul Graham's ANSI CL being a decent book, but giving bad habits. Does someone else share this opinion and can elaborate on that? 10:02:42 It's only that he doesn't cover CLOS. 10:02:50 -!- sacho [~sacho@87-126-53-242.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:03:04 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has joined #lisp 10:03:08 it's really nice as a short reference - to see what's available (apart from clos, as pjb said) 10:03:11 PG is stil the guy who made billions selling his clisp program to yahoo. 10:04:06 But in doing that, there's more than just the programming language, so I think you can safely use CLOS and still make billions. 10:04:16 hehe 10:04:32 So the section on CLOS is lacking then? 10:04:45 just about 20 pages here 10:05:10 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:05:58 <_3b> Kenjin: http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/academics/courses/325/readings/graham/graham-notes.html 10:06:03 ^ 10:06:54 jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.28.163] has joined #lisp 10:07:34 entrix [~entrix@95-28-76-46.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 10:08:13 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-169.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:08:58 pjb: Was it written in clisp, really? 10:09:04 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-dfjyuqmwpbpuhrpm] has joined #lisp 10:09:04 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-dfjyuqmwpbpuhrpm] has quit [Changing host] 10:09:04 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 10:09:04 antoszka: yes 10:09:07 ugh 10:09:29 antoszka: it got worse, now it's written in C++ with Greenspun 10th rule 10:09:34 literally 10:09:37 lol 10:09:49 jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-71-16.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:09:59 Hope this does not happen to ITA's code having been acquired by Google. 10:10:01 promus [~quickstac@cpe-67-243-40-160.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:10:19 antoszka: an important part of the user interface was based on lisp macros, which were actually exposed to the user after some formatting... 10:10:30 that part is still in use today 10:10:37 there's kind of a pattern there no? graham's online shop, naughty dog 10:10:43 etc 10:12:01 etc what? 10:12:21 Someone builds something awsome with lisp. It gets bought and then rewritten 10:12:24 antoszka: yep. Happily, sbcl made at least as much, by the sale of ITA to google :-) 10:12:38 pjb: Good, that. 10:12:43 jdz: actually that "etc" was not necessary. That was all I got 10:13:00 Kenjin: yeah, that's why i was curious what else you know :) 10:13:06 Kenjin: Interface Builder. 10:13:08 jdz: :P 10:13:30 antoszka: but for a long time, sbcl couldn't say so much, compared to clisp :-) 10:13:31 Kenjin: not really. Naughty Dog was a very specific case, PG's and Interface Builder less so 10:14:27 p_l|backup: about the rewrite part, right? 10:15:28 pjb: Didn't know about Interface Builder. Cool. 10:15:56 Kenjin: Also X, PostgreSQL, etc. 10:16:05 All great software was written in lisp orignally. 10:16:28 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-141-252.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 10:16:53 X and postgres (or rather still ingres back then?) were reasonable cases, IMHO 10:17:34 It might have been better to improve lisp compilers. 10:19:01 -!- longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:19:18 pjb: X was a case that would be hard to improve, IMHO, due to its down-to-metal nature. PostgreSQL less so, but I'd like to point out, that lisp runtimes got *bigger*, not smaller, since that time, and it was improvements in manufacturing that eclipsed it 10:20:43 _3b: thanks for the link. Very nice. 10:22:23 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-162-214.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 10:22:57 Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #lisp 10:24:55 Is there an electronic version of PAIP floating around? 10:25:47 Yes. I'm not sure where, but I've got a copy from somewhere. 10:26:15 -!- spurvewt [~fess@gate113.iba.by] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:26:23 hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 10:26:37 that would be called a "pirated version", not "electronic version" 10:26:42 fds: Would you mind sharing it? (I got the paper copy, but wanted to have an ebook backup). 10:28:01 fds: nvm, found it. 10:28:44 antoszka: Faster than I could find it on my hard drive. :-) 10:28:50 heh 10:29:03 daniel___ [~daniel@p5082983A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:29:08 I have a very special copy, actually :)  antoszka.pl/paip.jpg 10:29:09 spurvewt [~fess@gate113.iba.by] has joined #lisp 10:29:35 zomgbie_ [~jesus@85-127-211-122.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 10:30:08 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-141-252.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:30:10 Nice! 10:30:32 Just lucky to know someone who met PN. 10:31:19 qizwiz` [~user@ppp-70-252-10-136.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 10:31:44 -!- daniel__ [~daniel@p5082BFC9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:35:02 -!- Boognish [~david@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:35:06 -!- MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:35:29 -!- qizwiz [~user@ppp-70-252-10-136.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:36:13 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:37:52 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 10:38:39 :jealous: 10:40:11 -!- gko [~gko@223-139-75-211.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:41:01 :jealousy: is a sin, my son! 10:44:13 Well, now that his signature is available, I could have that in _my_ PAIP, too ... 10:44:42 joachifm [~joachim@212.7.195.193] has joined #lisp 10:44:45 lol 10:45:25 Damn, wasn't that irresponsible to post that picture on the interwebs. 10:47:48 -!- nannto [~nanto@pee5b70.tokyff01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 10:48:54 especially with the thingie i recently saw on the internets 10:51:21 this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wPhLFxRgfQ8 10:51:30 Good thing that copy had the certain Californian GPS coordinates removed from the EXIF data. :) 10:52:28 That's cool. 10:52:51 antoszka: don't think that the GPS would have been readable on my printout. 10:53:00 heh 10:57:28 -!- misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:00:40 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:02:40 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@gw249-1.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 11:07:31 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-169.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 11:08:22 sellout- [~Adium@195.54.148.98] has joined #lisp 11:09:36 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 11:09:55 misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has joined #lisp 11:10:06 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@gw249-1.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:11:22 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-169.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:12:59 sykopomp [~sykopomp@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has joined #lisp 11:13:21 glidesurfer 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BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 12:03:37 Next time you should have looked in the lists chapter first. 12:03:44 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 12:05:28 Which is called, incidentally, the Cons chapter. 12:05:36 But also mind the Sequence chapter. 12:05:41 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@82.166.248.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:06:32 (you didn't believe me when I told you there are no lists in lisp. No list chapter either. Just a cons chapter.) 12:06:55 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.153.52] has joined #lisp 12:09:58 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:10:27 -!- twbd is now known as twbd|transport-h 12:10:41 oudeis [~oudeis@192.118.11.118] has joined #lisp 12:12:14 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:17:03 -!- kdas_ [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-qzugujtbdkcwzipa] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:17:36 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:18:40 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:21:00 zmv [~daniel@c9533906.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 12:23:10 longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has joined #lisp 12:23:10 Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:23:27 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-150-156.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:24:46 sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 12:24:47 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[~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 14:32:51 francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has joined #lisp 14:33:44 -!- felideon [~felideon@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:34:05 infiniteloop [~infinitel@208.123.162.2] has joined #lisp 14:34:26 hi all 14:35:10 -!- loke [~elias@bb119-74-157-202.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:35:37 loke [~elias@bb116-14-205-184.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 14:36:08 so Im starting lisp (coming from perl) and I plan to learn lisp while developing this web app. whats the best way to go about doing a perl + mysql like web app in lisp ? 14:36:32 step one: don't think in perl. :) 14:36:48 ok, Im reading the practical common lisp book 14:36:56 that's a very good book 14:37:08 is there a standard db , http server for lisp that I can start with ? 14:37:16 although, if you look at clack there might be some familiarity there with plack/psgi 14:37:24 there are several bindings for databases available 14:37:34 hunchentoot is probably closest to standard webserver 14:37:42 most people go with hunchentoot as webserver 14:38:00 postmodern has a good rep, but is postgresql, not mysql 14:38:12 to check that all contents of a sequence are the same I am doing this: (eq (length (remove ITEM SEQUENCE :test ...)) 0) but I have a feeling there is something easier? 14:38:17 neat, will check out hunchentoot 14:38:47 infiniteloop: mysql has rather bad rep here, and little support 14:38:54 francogrex: (every (lambda (x) (eq x )) seq) 14:39:16 nikodemus: ok yes more logical 14:39:25 replacing EQ with thatever is the right test for your objects 14:39:32 got it, so is postrgresql the preferred db here ? I don't mind switching db, just want to go with what everyone uses if its easy 14:39:55 postgresql is much more loved here, yes 14:40:03 infiniteloop: well, definitely preferred over mysql, for various reasons 14:40:13 -!- daniel___ [~daniel@p5082983A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:40:24 daniel___ [~daniel@p5082983A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:32 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:40:34 infiniteloop: due to typical requirements of hosting a CL-powered website, there was no push for mysql like there was elsewhere 14:41:00 -!- Guest40009 [~michael@117.32.153.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:41:30 infiniteloop: Check out bknr.datastore too. Be warned that it has nothing to do with any SQL though. 14:41:38 cool will check 14:41:41 -!- francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:41:51 centipedefarmer [~nothingHa@173-29-195-221.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 14:42:08 -!- frito [~user@cpc2-sotn4-0-0-cust13.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:43:06 jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.56] has joined #lisp 14:43:16 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:43:18 same with rucksack 14:44:34 felideon [~felideon@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 14:45:26 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:46:07 jsoft_ [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 14:47:15 Oooh yeah. 14:47:54 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@NBRDS1495.accenture.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:48:50 Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:48:53 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 14:55:56 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has joined #lisp 14:56:24 -!- jweiss [~user@cpe-069-134-063-238.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:56:59 milanj [~milanj_@178-223-141-220.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 14:57:25 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:58:10 always felt proud that I could pickup php, python, perl , objC and java - they have a few common things; always hit a roadblock with lisp, this is my third attempt at learning lisp , hopefully I'll succeed 14:58:25 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:58:39 infiniteloop: read Little Schemer. It helped me reach a break through. 14:58:48 Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:58:50 I came from C, Perl, Python. 14:58:51 If you picked up python, you shouldn't have much of an issue with list 14:58:53 lisp :p 14:59:31 jweiss [~user@cpe-069-134-063-238.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:59:31 there's also Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation by Touretxky. 14:59:35 infiniteloop: I'd recommend Practical Common Lisp, myself. Most lisp books introduce the subject in the complete wrong, way, I feel 14:59:36 Touretzky 14:59:59 PCL is a bit more terse. 15:00:09 I liked PCL, but it doesn't explain the fundamentals like Little Schemer does. 15:00:21 Terseness is appreciated by experienced programmers 15:00:42 dlowe: right, but if he had trouble twice already :) 15:01:14 thanks guys, checking little schemer and the gentle introduction books 15:01:29 One of the strengths of CL is that you don' 15:01:36 man, my typing is terrible today 15:02:24 One of the strengths of CL is that you aren't locked into a single programming paradigm, so you can bring what you've learned in other languages. The Little Schemer is more like starting from scratch and can be discouraging. 15:02:30 infiniteloop: apropos, use quicklisp to install libraries 15:03:10 any other way lies pain an insanity 15:03:15 and, even 15:03:22 vervic [~vervic@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 15:03:26 Right, maybe reading PCL is good enough if he hasn't read it. 15:03:31 -!- vervic [~vervic@84.114.246.246] has quit [Client Quit] 15:03:34 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:04:02 will check , thanks. 15:05:22 dlowe: I can't really say whether one is better than the other; but I can say that it worked for me. I've been programming in algol languages for.. a long time. > 10 years. I've tried several times to learn lisp, but I'd only get so far trying to bolt on my previous expeience in other languages. LS was just the kind of clean slate I needed and it really made the beauty of lisp click in my mind. 15:06:21 the build up to the y-combinator was quite revealing. and now i feel like i understand the language a little better. 15:06:42 I can't remember what was hard about starting to learn lisp, I do know I was a worse programmer though 15:06:50 what's the #lisp consensus on Land of Lisp? :) 15:07:01 Well, mileage varies, obviously. I had been programming in algol languages for a long time, too, and it took me a while to get past all the "list" and "atom" crap to realize that they were just talking about stupid singly linked lists. 15:07:37 infiniteloop: I leaned a lot by watching someone writing a raytracer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksaM14iWFg0. That made clear to me that I really have to learn emacs and slime. However I can't watch this anymore. Everytime someone makes a screencast without paredit and introduces parenthesis errors, I cringe. 15:13:14 -!- gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:14:51 -!- aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:16:58 pyrony [~epic@173-116-183-175.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:04 mk2: although that link wasn't directed to me, thanks! 15:17:47 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:19:39 add^_: I guess I have to thank you then. :-) 15:19:45 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:19:47 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-157-5.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:50 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:20:35 mk2: Why? You helped me, not the other way around ;-) 15:21:24 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-49-85.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 15:23:52 ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 15:24:37 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 15:24:37 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 15:24:37 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 15:24:50 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-222-46.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:24:54 -!- pyrony [~epic@173-116-183-175.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:26:10 -!- zmv [~daniel@c9533906.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:26:33 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-176-90.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Offline] 15:26:43 Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:28:57 z0d [~z0d@artifact.hu] has joined #lisp 15:28:57 -!- z0d [~z0d@artifact.hu] has quit [Changing host] 15:28:57 z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 15:29:18 -!- Phillip [~Phillip@c-174-53-229-4.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:30:11 pyrony [~epic@72-57-39-238.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 15:30:29 pnq [~nick@AC823884.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 15:31:35 I couldn't get used to paredit so I inactivated it, it got really annoying when I'd forgot to write a parentheses or wrote one to many.. Or when I accidentally killed a region, then on occasions I couldn't remove the left over parentheses... I'm still new I guess.. 15:32:36 add^_: I stopped using regions with paredit (or use the C-M-space repeatedly). the sexp-wise operations feel way better to me 15:32:46 koning_robot [~user@s5597d50c.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #lisp 15:32:49 that is kill next expression and stuff 15:32:57 never mis-selects (: 15:33:00 ah 15:33:04 dlowe: was there any specific feature of python that you felt likened it to CL? 15:33:19 -!- chp [~chp@2001:da8:a000:155:5eff:35ff:fe0c:c3ef] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:33:20 penryu: it has "lambda" :) 15:33:49 MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:33:59 unfortunately it doesn't have progn ;) 15:34:05 ilmari: hah 15:34:15 which keyboard macro was next-sexp-kill? 15:34:17 penryu: no, nothing specific 15:34:51 add^_: C-h w 15:34:59 ilmari: thanks 15:35:01 I learned to appreciate paredit after using the ACL IDE :D 15:35:06 Ctrl-click only goes so far. 15:35:13 add^_: generally C-M-... for sexp commands 15:35:17 add^_: C-M-k kills the next sexp 15:35:31 if you have configured X to not die when you use it, C-M-backspace should kill the previous sexp (: 15:36:09 splittist & antifuchs : ok now I'll have to try that out :-P 15:36:13 can anyone help me debug this: (format nil "~3,,,_A" t); I just want it to pad with underscores, and according to my interpretation of the clhs this should be it, but sbcl complains that it doesn't want more than 0 parameters 15:36:18 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-rlnwbmockguvgiwx] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:36:28 antifuchs: hmm, I had to add a keybinding for backward-kill-sexp 15:36:28 you can use them without paredit too, of course (: 15:36:33 antifuchs: in emacs.app at least 15:36:39 but the really nice ones come with paredit (snarf-right and stuff) (: 15:36:54 felideon: oh. maybe I had to, too (: 15:36:54 wrap and splice 15:36:55 (I forget!) (: 15:37:07 Boognish [~david@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:38:19 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:38:25 thanks guys :-D 15:39:09 koning_robot: (format nil "~3,,,'_A" t) you missed a quote 15:39:36 felideon: on mac? I seem to have those keybindings, nothing to be added for me :-/ 15:39:54 -!- markskil1eck [~chris@host86-137-32-158.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:39:55 add^_: yeah weird. 15:40:20 -!- markskilbeck [~chris@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:40:20 felideon: which keybinding more exactly, I might have misunderstood you.. 15:41:12 add^_: (global-set-key (kbd "") 'backward-kill-sexp) 15:41:24 hm 15:41:41 oh 15:41:47 seems it's undefined for me too 15:41:53 mk2: you are right, thank you, I missed that part 15:42:19 Away for a moment 15:43:14 markskilbeck [~chris@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 15:44:26 -!- joachifm [~joachim@212.7.195.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:44:41 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.153.52] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:45:28 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:46:14 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-142-171.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:48:07 Soulman [~knute@250.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 15:48:57 ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has joined #lisp 15:49:38 oudeis [~oudeis@109.64.201.40] has joined #lisp 15:49:54 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-142-171.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 15:50:49 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:50:54 -!- pyrony [~epic@72-57-39-238.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:51:38 -!- pnq [~nick@AC823884.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:52:44 -!- twbd|transport-h is now known as twbd 15:55:51 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@109.64.201.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:57:39 rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 15:57:39 I have an architecture question: I'm currently writing a thin SQL-library that can sit on top of the existing three (at least) different methods of connecting to databases, providing a single API (I need this for various reasons). Now, most of the standard calls are simply generic functions that are called with the database connection object as first parameter (the underlying implementations specialise on this). There are also some other functi 15:57:39 ons and macros that work on the API level. Here's the question I have: 16:00:02 There are 3 different ways an SQL query can be submitted: 1) Simple string, 2) Parametrised string and 3) Prepared statements. Underlying implementations can support (or not) any combination of these. It is also possible to implement all of them in terms of another. The question is how to define the API so that both implementing the underlying implementation as well as using the API is as "natural" as possible. 16:01:02 oudeis [~oudeis@192.118.11.118] has joined #lisp 16:01:21 loke: just pick one and improve it. those compat layers are pointless 16:01:41 fe[nl]ix: I was thinking about that too. 16:02:14 However, none of them runs at all on ABCL, which is one of my deploymnet platforms 16:02:44 (for ABCL I use JDBC) 16:02:51 -!- mk2 [~user@159.92.65.64] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:02:54 pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:13 doesn't JDBC do the compatibility layer bit for you? 16:03:42 df_aldur: well, yeah 16:03:48 oh, I see, you want to deploy on other implementations as well 16:03:54 df_aldur: but that won't help me when I deploy the same application on SBCL 16:03:59 correct 16:04:37 loke: ... I don't see much of a problem, other than having to write two APIs for creating queries 16:04:39 The underlying reason I need all of this is that the application is using Hunchentoot, and one of the deployment platforms is Solaris 16:05:00 p_l|backup: Exactly, that's what I'm doing. The compatibility layer is very thin. 16:05:21 -!- Adrinael [~adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:05:27 Adrinael [~adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 16:05:39 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:05:45 ABCL is unfotunately the only CL that runs on Solaris, with threads that can handle Hunchentoot 16:05:50 loke: DEFINE-PREPARED-QUERY, which on solutions not supporting it would just create a lambda submitting the whole query 16:06:20 -!- xan_ [~xan@138.60.17.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:06:45 p_l|backup: hmm. I see 16:06:59 i bet porting postmodern to abcl wouldn't be a huge effort 16:07:06 p_l|backup: better than my other idea 16:07:10 -!- Zhivago [~zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: ...] 16:07:43 nikodemus: isn't postmodern only postgres? 16:07:59 zhivago [~zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 16:08:12 -!- zhivago is now known as Zhivago 16:08:20 nikodemus: (all of this is only to hold me over until there is SBCL Thread support on Solaris, hint hint :-) ) 16:08:39 pyrony [~epic@office1.klout.com] has joined #lisp 16:08:52 yes. (i thought you just needed something that works on abcl too, sorry) 16:09:10 nikodemus: I do indeed. 16:09:22 nikodemus: however, the _other_ requirement is Oracle database :-( 16:10:11 ah :) 16:10:40 i think hu.dwim.rdbms supports both oracle and postgresql. not 100% sure, though 16:10:59 it apparently works, but I haven't tested it 16:11:09 uses OCI 16:11:25 dlowe_nb [~dlowe@74.125.60.4] has joined #lisp 16:11:33 Now Oracle in CL is a pain in the arse. I'd prefer to use the DWIM stuff, but it has a silly requirement on a native library that is only part of the Express edition of Oracle (not Enterprise), so for SBCL I'm locked into using CLSQL, which has a somewhat broken Oracle support (well, it's broken in other ways too) 16:12:08 p_l|backup: It uses Express edition-specific libraries. Why, I have no idea. CLSQL doesn't do it. 16:12:29 This is such a mess. 16:12:48 So you may start to understand why I'm trying to ease my pain by implementing a compatibility wrapper. 16:15:24 -!- muhdick [~qle@74.92.196.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:15:33 kpreid [~kpreid@nat/google/x-sbpgkpnsyzuwqchx] has joined #lisp 16:15:58 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 4.0.1/20110413222027]] 16:17:01 Yuzuchan [~yuzuchan@p2220-ipad61osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:18:07 -!- antoni` [~user@176.pool85-53-40.dynamic.orange.es] has left #lisp 16:19:03 heh 16:19:11 try using ODBC? 16:19:29 bsod1 [~osa1@31.141.60.173] has joined #lisp 16:19:31 On Solaris? 16:20:25 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@nat/google/x-sbpgkpnsyzuwqchx] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:20:31 p_l|backup: that would also require CLSQL, which doesn't load on ABCD 16:20:36 kpreid [~kpreid@216.239.45.19] has joined #lisp 16:21:43 -!- dlowe_nb [~dlowe@74.125.60.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:21:51 dlowe_nb [~dlowe@74.125.60.4] has joined #lisp 16:24:57 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:25:31 -!- glidesurfer [~glidesurf@2002:4fcd:cc59:0:230:5ff:fe37:7a8d] has quit [Quit: Bye.] 16:26:45 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 16:26:47 mk2 [~user@cpc7-lewi14-2-0-cust39.2-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 16:27:59 -!- longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:28:38 -!- misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:29:10 -!- vert2 [vert2@newshell1.bshellz.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:29:43 loke: no, porting some other lib to ODBC 16:30:03 which one? none of them loads on ABCL 16:30:12 hmmm... what about adding JDBC driver? 16:30:29 there's some lib that loads there, right? 16:30:50 I suspect perec is out due to MOP, but something does load there, right? 16:32:46 loke: who or what uses express edition-specific libraries? 16:33:04 lichtblau: hu.dwim.rdbms.oracle 16:33:41 lichtblau: try loading it on a system which has the Oracle Enterprise client libs, and it'll fail trying to load a library that doesn't exist (can't remember the name, but it has an "x" in the name) 16:33:59 lichtblau: a bit of googling revealed that that library is only part of Express edition 16:34:09 Definitely works for me with Enterprise Edition. 16:34:19 lichtblau: what platform? 16:34:28 oh, good point. Windows. 16:34:32 yeah 16:34:35 try it on Unix :-) 16:34:47 In particulkar, Solaris 16:35:10 i wonder how deep a dependency that is. shouldn't enterprise edition have something you can use instead? 16:36:19 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-142-171.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:36:48 -!- Guthur [c0c1748e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.193.116.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:36:53 nikodemus: I have no idea. By the time I hit that snag I was so fed up with all of that that I took a break and started to think about my compat library instead 16:37:28 nikodemus: but I'm sure it's not that difficult to do. 16:38:39 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:39:22 loke: I don't have a regular Instant Client ready for testing, but since the windows fix was to write (:windows (:or "ocixe.dll" "oci.dll")), I'd suspect that you only need to turn (:unix "libocixe.so") into (:unix (:or "libocixe.so" "liboci.so")) 16:39:49 lichtblau: ah, possibly 16:40:15 I'll take a look at the office tomorrow 16:42:08 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.221.14.198] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:42:40 Harag [~phil@dsl-242-251-166.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:43:50 xinming [~hyy@115.221.14.198] has joined #lisp 16:43:55 Unfortunately, hu.dwim.rdbms can't be made to work on ABCL with any ease 16:44:01 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@42.Red-217-125-2.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:44:15 lichtblau: I think we could simplify that to (t (:or (:default "ocixe") (:default "oci"))) 16:44:27 I'll ask Luis 16:44:44 fe[nl]ix: Please. 16:44:52 fe[nl]ix: I'll try it out tomorrow 16:46:02 -!- e-user [~e-user@nat/nokia/x-xzibpsozxwiuitfq] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:48:55 tsanhwa [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has joined #lisp 16:56:32 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 17:00:28 -!- centipedefarmer [~nothingHa@173-29-195-221.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:00:38 -!- Yuzuchan [~yuzuchan@p2220-ipad61osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: I Quit] 17:01:20 turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:23 rgrau [~user@67.Red-83-58-126.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:01 xan_ [~xan@190.Red-193-152-189.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:02 -!- MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:02:30 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@42.Red-217-125-2.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:29 -!- qizwiz` [~user@ppp-70-252-10-136.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:05:33 is there cross-package symbol completion for SLIME? 17:06:17 So I can type foo-TAB and find all exported symbols that could complete that (and package prefixes added) 17:07:22 muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:19 -!- lanthan [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:09:50 homie` [~levent.gu@xdsl-78-35-186-211.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:12:20 -!- homie [~levent.gu@xdsl-78-35-189-21.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:14:14 -!- tsanhwa [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:16:09 kes_ [~kes@c-71-193-145-18.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:38 MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-028.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:21:03 sykopomp: (ide.base::complete-symbol-from-string "foo" *package*) 17:21:07 :D 17:22:02 felideon: D:< 17:23:15 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:27:07 without a package prefix, that'd easily mess with keyword completion 17:27:15 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-32-11-41.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:28 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-222-46.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:29:09 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 17:31:22 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@192.118.11.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:33:48 pkhuong: seems like a relatively easy issue to resolve... 17:34:15 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:34:57 I don't know. We're in DWIM-land; there are so good solutions only less bad ones. 17:37:38 pnq [~nick@ACA31077.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 17:41:34 -!- homie` [~levent.gu@xdsl-78-35-186-211.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:42:29 tcr1 [~tcr@80-218-247-218.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:44:14 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-187-107.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:44:57 homie [~levent.gu@xdsl-78-35-186-211.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:47:10 gor[e] [~svr@gw2.masterhost.ru] has joined #lisp 17:47:25 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 17:48:30 -!- benny [~benny@i577A3693.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:49:15 -!- ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:49:27 oudeis [~oudeis@di8-32215.dialin.huji.ac.il] has joined #lisp 17:50:46 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:55:49 HG` [~HG@p5DC05C1D.dip.t-dialin.net] has 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19:10:31 aei [~aei@c-98-197-118-188.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:27 Learning some ruby. Looking at it with "lisp eyes", it appears to be on the opposite side of the sanity barrier to Python. 19:13:08 -!- waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-4d0406b3.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: WTF? leaving!] 19:13:22 I think ruby us closer to perl than python, but I don't know ruby well beyond its syntax. 19:13:37 it's no common lisp, so meh. ;) 19:13:48 Indeed. 19:13:49 ruby is smalltalk without the compiler and different syntax with maybe the barest hint of an idea or two from lisp 19:14:14 Im glad I went through the mental barrier of learning lisp :) 19:14:17 i used it for awhile but gave up on it and returned to common lisp .. just doesn't really cut it 19:14:22 Still an assload more to learn, but it is win 19:14:49 People have mentioned that for weird things: "If you can learn lisp X should be easy" for various values of X; but lisps generally have explicitness and rules. 19:15:00 -!- entrix [~entrix@95-28-33-45.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:15:18 jsoft_: ... it was conceived as saner perl with Smalltalk's object model and bits of lisp 19:15:40 and that's the official story, iirc 19:15:48 There's massive amounts of syntax to learn in comparison. 19:16:00 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:16:12 and a lot of contextual information in the source 19:16:18 Oh bigtime 19:16:23 jsoft_: afaik matz started with perl then started to reduce it to managabl size 19:16:34 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 19:16:45 hrm, too bad cl-typesetting isn't a bit more abstract .. pango is so .. rudimentary 19:16:49 And some of that spills into the conventions - a lot of assumptions/things that come in from parent class. Lots of constructs are just runtime methods (well, arguably, all of them are) 19:17:09 i thought the official story was it was based on Lisp and started removing features. 19:17:10 http://blade.nagaokaut.ac.jp/cgi-bin/scat.rb/ruby/ruby-talk/179642?matzlisp 19:17:15 Yeah but I found the whole 'way' of doing stuff in lisp was quite different 19:17:21 But it's odd, I tohught it'd remind me more of Python; but python is IMHO closer to lisp than to ruby 19:17:21 Was so used to state machines and such 19:17:51 (Python similarity I mean short/coherent rule set) 19:17:53 p_l|backup: i'm not sure, it bears little actual resemblance to perl in practice and has been moving away from those for awhile 19:18:05 jsoft_: same here. i recommended Little Schemer to someone earlier. Particularly for this reason: it helps set your brain up to think in lisp's style. 19:18:28 Now that I am familiar with lisp, it kinda pisses me off trying to use other languages 19:18:36 same. :( 19:18:39 Not entirely sure why 19:18:40 exactly 19:18:56 "add blocks, inspired by higher order functions. 19:18:57 " <-- but you can only pass in one; but. . . aren't they coroutines/CPS transformed? Or is it the caller that's cps-transformed? 19:18:58 *j_king* blames Fade for getting him to learn Lisp so he could end the debate. 19:19:00 plus you can usually hack lisp to have things you like from other languages 19:19:12 Is there a way to kill the obnoxious "local variables list ... not safe" that pops up when opening some lisp files? 19:20:04 sykopomp, i such give an option to ignore 19:20:07 ! i think 19:20:13 It* 19:20:22 Guthur: you have to do that for each new file, though, no? 19:20:22 damn, It should 19:20:34 oGMo: the biggest parts that are still there are regexes as part of syntax and some datastructures 19:20:54 oGMo: Perl and Smalltalk were the main sources 19:20:55 p_l|backup: and sigils 19:20:58 sykopomp, I think it should remember it for all of files of that type, I haven't seen it in awhile at least 19:21:01 p_l|backup: yeah 19:22:01 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:22:17 My concerns with how things are done in Rails may ring closer to complaints about ORMs in general (see Codinghorror on the subject, generally that's my understanding) - you still need to know SQL; but you need to learn german so you can explain to a belgian who knows german as a second language how to make the DB instead. 19:22:24 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:24:43 lanthan [~ze@p54B7CDFC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:42 -!- lanthan [~ze@p54B7CDFC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:25:46 I am often surprise how often python doesn't follow the path of "least surprise" 19:26:05 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.67.199.173] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:26:24 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-67-199-173.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:25 entrix [~entrix@89-178-50-238.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 19:27:39 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:28:05 lanthan [~ze@p54B7CDFC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:38 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 19:29:35 Modius: Rails 3 got better, but nowhere close to wonders of Perec. And I am wary of active record, given its main developers' beliefs 19:29:49 what beliefs? 19:30:26 -!- pnq [~nick@AC810A07.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:30:34 muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:35 why has the dwim.hu website never worked for me correctlt? 19:30:40 correctly* 19:30:48 Modius: that database consistency is responsibility of the application, triggers, restrictions etc. are useless etc. 19:30:51 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-67-199-173.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:31:03 Modius: it was also known for having too much magic, which I can agree with 19:31:04 felideon: I think it's at the end of a very bad internet connection. 19:31:09 p_l|backup : Technically, that's just taking the whole ORM belief to the next stage. 19:31:12 i've also had problems with it. 19:31:16 Modius: no, not really 19:31:26 Fade: it loads something. and before this the functionality was always iffy. 19:31:26 felideon: I also believe it was a weekend hack 19:31:29 Or, arguably, it's typical ORM belief. . . 19:31:36 Guthur: seconded 19:31:40 p_l|backup: ah. been a weekend hack for quite some time. :) 19:31:41 Modius: I know ORMs that don't follow that 19:31:51 cmm [~cmm@109.67.199.173] has joined #lisp 19:31:58 felideon: I think they had more important stuff to do :) 19:32:13 You're designing the DB ultimately around the ORM 19:32:14 Gotcha. 19:33:11 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:34:02 hi 19:34:27 pjb: almost done with my little Lisp project 19:37:16 -!- foocraft [~ewanas@89.211.196.219] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:38:18 i want to get back to working on mine. too much job work. http://mug.io 19:38:56 going to try and write the client in parenscript and a comet chat server as the backend in lisp too. 19:40:29 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@31.141.60.173] has quit [Quit: bsod1] 19:41:50 cerebral_monkey [~berkley@c-68-35-238-30.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:58 -!- ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has left #lisp 19:44:06 Hello, might anyone be able to tell me what the two values after INTEGER mean regarding the this: (type-of '2) => (INTEGER 0 1152921504606846975) 19:45:39 cerebral_monkey: the range 19:45:50 Ahh, thank you. 19:46:18 -!- ajay [~ajay@64.124.34.10] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 19:46:27 that's the size of the most positive fixnum on your machine. 19:46:37 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:49:04 bsod1 [~sinan@188.58.163.45] has joined #lisp 19:49:57 sellout- [~Adium@212.3.9.50] has joined #lisp 19:51:39 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 19:59:01 j_king: clws might be a nice alternative to comet. 19:59:08 that's what I use for my current project. 19:59:17 pnq [~nick@ACA30862.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 19:59:33 -!- Harag [~phil@dsl-242-251-166.telkomadsl.co.za] has left #lisp 19:59:47 aerique [~euqirea@aerique.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 19:59:54 sykopomp: clws? Hm. 20:00:09 city of lakes waldorf school? 20:00:51 https://github.com/3b/clws 20:01:54 j_king: paired with web-socket-js, you can support most browsers out there. 20:02:30 for extra points, invest some time in modifying clws so it supports socket.io, and you'll have non-flash-based compatibility with most browsers down to IE5.5, as well as mobile browsers. 20:02:31 Harag [~phil@dsl-242-251-166.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:02:39 sykopomp: huh. i had thought web sockets had been retracted until the standard was better hashed out. 20:02:50 -!- dlowe_nb [~dlowe@74.125.60.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:02:59 j_king: some browsers have disabled them, but you can still use them with Flash. 20:03:09 and they're bound to change, I guess. 20:03:10 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 20:03:17 but compared to Comet... they're wonderful. 20:04:12 It was my go-to until I found that out. Comet seemed like a viable alternative. Especially since writing a client in parenscript + canvas is going to be hard enough on my non-js-loving brain. 20:04:13 -!- elliottcable is now known as ec|detached 20:04:53 thanks for the suggestion 20:05:48 -!- milanj [~milanj_@178-223-141-220.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 20:05:49 If you find a scalable Comet solution for Lisp that isn't broken or horribly difficult to use or impossible to scale, let me know :) 20:06:08 :S 20:06:11 milanj [~milanj_@178-223-141-220.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 20:06:28 also worth noting that socket.io abstracts websockets into using Comet as a fallback. 20:06:43 *sykopomp* may end up extending clws himself. :S 20:06:56 i'll give this a serious review then. thanks again! 20:07:47 ajay [~ajay@64.124.34.10] has joined #lisp 20:08:18 sykopomp: use mongrel2 20:09:11 j_king: your project's kind of amusing. It sounds like you're developing an interactively-written comic. My project currently looks like an interactively-written screenplay ;p 20:09:28 galdor: are there examples of mongrel2+lisp projects out there? 20:10:08 there's a minimal chat example in http://github.com/galdor/m2cl 20:10:14 sykopomp: that's pretty much what I'm going for. i had fond memories of a MS project called "comic chat" that was basically an irc client that drew a comic from the chat 20:10:17 and I'm writing a browser game with it 20:10:28 and also i love comics. 20:10:36 _6502_ [4e0cec91@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.12.236.145] has joined #lisp 20:10:55 galdor: how has it been working out so far? 20:11:00 I knew "comet chat" sounded familiar. 20:11:32 <_6502_> is paste.lisp.org down? 20:11:36 Do you mean http://www.vidarholen.net/contents/rage/ ? 20:11:49 i'm not a fan of the way the server is configured (sqlite), but it works, the code is fine, and I had no real problem since last november 20:12:41 -!- jsoft_ [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:13:00 -!- ajay [~ajay@64.124.34.10] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 20:13:20 ajay [~ajay@64.124.34.10] has joined #lisp 20:13:31 http://www.vidarholen.net/~vidar/rage/130747759419536.html 20:13:35 -!- ajay [~ajay@64.124.34.10] has quit [Client Quit] 20:13:54 _6502_: ^ 20:14:06 ajay [~ajay@64.124.34.10] has joined #lisp 20:14:18 -!- ajay [~ajay@64.124.34.10] has quit [Client Quit] 20:14:48 pjb: nice. :) 20:15:10 <_6502_> :-) 20:15:30 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:15:53 <_6502_> actually i did some work for xach and wanted to paste the result... this is not buggy newbie code, just a list of minimum version required to use quicklisp on a few implementations 20:16:26 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:18:49 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 20:18:50 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:19:13 I use http://pastebin.com when lisppaste is dead. 20:20:06 -!- sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:21:15 pjb: lisppaste dead again? 20:21:16 -!- ec|detached is now known as elliottcable 20:22:16 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:23:23 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 20:23:35 <_6502_> ehu: yes... 20:23:40 <_6502_> http://pastebin.com/6zL9D36g 20:24:48 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Client Quit] 20:24:57 billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 20:24:57 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Changing host] 20:24:57 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 20:24:59 <_6502_> i tried to do the same test with ECL but building seems complex 20:25:30 mmm would it be worth it putting up a paste bin just for #lisp? (one with no adds and crap) 20:25:30 -!- twbd [~willem@91.177.29.233] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:26:17 twbd [~willem@91.177.15.186] has joined #lisp 20:26:37 Harag: that's paste.lisp.org 20:27:09 <_6502_> should I do the same test with SBCL or is it wasted time? 20:27:18 yeah but it has been down often lately has it not? 20:27:26 -!- entrix [~entrix@89-178-50-238.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:28:51 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:15 Harag: right. And it's "a pastebin juste for #lisp with no ads and crap", or what has become of it. 20:29:55 <_6502_> he probably meant one that's not always down :-D 20:29:59 -!- lisppaste [~lisppaste@tiger.common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:29:59 -!- specbot [~specbot@tiger.common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:32:47 lisppaste [~lisppaste@tiger.common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:12 minion [~minion@tiger.common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:18 specbot [~specbot@tiger.common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:26 has anybody here used allegrograph? I would like to hear about some ones first hand experience with it... 20:33:34 *_6502_* just finished watching WWDC2011 keynote 20:33:54 Harag: yes. it's really a problem. 20:34:00 (re lisppaste being down) 20:34:23 I'd like to offer better service, but I'll need someone with more time to do the debugging / digging for problems 20:34:29 lisppaste: help 20:34:29 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 20:34:30 lisppaste: help 20:34:30 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 20:34:31 lisppaste: help 20:34:31 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 20:34:31 lisppaste: help 20:34:31 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 20:34:39 Corey [~KB1JWQ@freenode/staff/kb1jwq] has joined #lisp 20:34:45 sorry about that, I was testing if that's what breaks it. 20:34:48 it isn't 20:34:52 :-) 20:34:53 -!- Corey [~KB1JWQ@freenode/staff/kb1jwq] has left #lisp 20:35:01 ehu: what powers it? 20:35:34 SBCL 20:35:44 sorry I meant, the web server 20:35:53 felideon: ah. araneida. 20:36:04 but we'd accept rewrites to Hunchentoot 20:36:23 -!- homie [~levent.gu@xdsl-78-35-186-211.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:36:28 is the code on github? (not that I'm volunteering hehe) 20:36:31 -!- xan_ [~xan@190.Red-193-152-189.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:36:51 felideon: no, it's on common-lisp.net 20:37:00 http://common-lisp.net/project/lisppaste 20:37:03 gotcha i think i remember now 20:38:09 well, you don't have to volunteer, it's not like it's a task anyone can 'claim' 20:38:21 just experiment with it and when you're done, please submit! 20:38:49 rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 20:38:58 ah nice 20:39:03 good point 20:40:57 Harag: I work on allegrograph (: 20:41:03 Harag: does that work for you? (: 20:41:09 (feel free to pick my brains) 20:41:58 else we can bring in Kenny 20:42:03 antifuchs: I am considering using it so i was hoping you could tell me if it works for you and in what scenarios 20:42:07 chegibari [~chegibari@151.59.15.167] has joined #lisp 20:42:20 well, we're very happy with it (-; 20:42:31 xan_ [~xan@190.Red-193-152-189.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:54 in my experience, it lends itself to scaling mostly vertically - so get very beefy servers if you plan to put substantial amounts of data in 20:43:25 -!- chegibari [~chegibari@151.59.15.167] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:43:27 we're going for a horizontally scalable thing too, but that will still take a while 20:43:44 currently, if you want to go beyond a couple 10^9 triples, you should get lots of ram 20:44:17 antifuchs: is it comparable to ISAM in performance? 20:44:30 antifuchs: and it has a memcached backend, anyway, right? :p 20:44:57 antifuchs: how is its performance when you do aggregates like sum and avg over large sets? 20:45:06 felideon: I wouldn't say that - ISAM doesn't do the things agraph does, and neither does agraph do the things isam does (: 20:45:28 pkhuong: we take the D in ACID seriously. stuff gets synced to disk. 20:45:46 Harag: yeah, don't do that (: 20:45:49 -!- HG` [~HG@p5DC05C1D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:45:55 enthymeme [~kraken@96.31.242.194] has joined #lisp 20:46:08 antifuchs: heh yeah i think that's why we aren't using it here. 20:46:16 antifuchs: you dont do that or it should not be done on allegrograph? 20:46:24 antifuchs: for aggregate reports and stuff 20:46:26 benny [~benny@i577A8C3B.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:46:27 Harag: not that I had tried that yet, but graph databases are better suited for cases where you get to do queries on loosely-connected data 20:46:31 without much of a schema 20:46:48 antifuchs: what about comparisons to 4store or 5store? 20:47:23 Harag: there is number datatype support, but anything involving it requires stuff that's not as cheap as doing queries on the graph structure itself 20:47:25 antifuchs: queries are not much use if you cant do interesting stats on them ?!?!? 20:47:31 Krystof: as in, quads and quints? (: 20:47:53 antifuchs: that, or 4chan's mercantile arm. 20:48:00 ah 20:48:04 just looked up those names 20:48:05 well, they're stupid names. But no, I meant the triple-store & query engines from Garlick 20:48:09 "Garlik" 20:48:23 haven't looked at them yet - I think this is something we'd need to ask Gary (: 20:48:41 my rdf-using colleagues (both in academia and industry) like 4store quite a lot, possibly largely because it's free 20:48:41 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.67.199.173] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:48:57 5store (by the same people) looks crunchy 20:49:02 Krystof: but from the description, 5store is designed for clusters - so horizontal scaling. we're all on one machine (: 20:49:14 -!- Landr [~user@78-22-148-233.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:49:32 (which is nice, but isn't when it gets expensive) (: 20:49:36 cmm [~cmm@109.67.199.173] has joined #lisp 20:50:44 is there a free version of AllegroGraph? 20:50:58 yeah. check the download page - you can put in a couple million triples 20:51:03 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@96.31.242.194] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.1] 20:51:03 oh ok. 20:51:05 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:52:05 enthymeme [~kraken@96.31.242.194] has joined #lisp 20:52:50 I was recently informed that agraph broke the record for documented number of triples stored on a machine... last I heard, we were around 300e9. 20:52:58 probably is higher now (: 20:53:24 how much ram do you need for that? 20:53:53 ok, I need to sleep. Plane to catch in the (early) morning :-( 20:53:57 ShereKahn [~ajourez@18.103-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 20:54:21 good luck (: 20:54:26 nikodemus: a ton ((: 20:54:46 *sykopomp* wonders in what time period the ton was measured. 20:54:47 have a good flight 20:55:00 I think this is around a terabyte or so? a lot. 20:55:02 Kenjin [~josesanto@a89-153-163-131.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 20:55:07 oof 20:55:13 zow 20:55:49 I was very surprised to learn that machines with this kind of memory do exist 20:55:51 -!- ShereKahn [~ajourez@18.103-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Client Quit] 20:56:19 I've got 0.0234375 TB of RAM. 20:56:24 antifuchs: Wait, agraph stores the db in RAM? 20:56:28 nope 20:56:56 -!- lawfulfalafel [~lawfulfal@thingy.cs.umass.edu] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:56:56 sykopomp: it's just like any other DB system in that if DB becomes bigger than the OS can keep buffers for it, things get VERY VERY slow 20:57:11 gatcha. 20:57:15 gotcha* 20:57:19 -!- bsod1 [~sinan@188.58.163.45] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:57:20 we take steps to prevent this from affecting things too much, but there's not much we can do really 20:57:34 so, the bigger the database, the bigger your machine (hopefully) (-: 20:58:05 SSDs do help, sometimes (: 20:58:22 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:58:27 *sykopomp* wonders how much 1TB worth of SSDs would cost these days. 20:58:50 not as much as 1TB of ram ((-: 20:58:59 Less than $2000. 20:59:02 b 20:59:14 -!- armence [~armence@unaffiliated/armence] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:59:34 -!- cheezus [~Adium@69-165-164-59.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:00:55 chegibari [~chegibari@151.59.15.167] has joined #lisp 21:01:04 armence [~armence@unaffiliated/armence] has joined #lisp 21:01:22 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:05:17 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-105-78.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:06:35 antifuchs: SSDs help when you use them for their read capabilities and they need to have great controllers and other hardware. writing, they don't seem to be much faster than real hard disks, or not with "regular quality" ones. 21:06:42 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.105.78] has joined #lisp 21:08:14 ehu: current gen. SSDs have write rates pushing link limits 21:08:31 there's bigger issue with replacing them every year or two, I heard 21:08:32 p_l|backup: that's continuous write (: 21:08:38 random writes however.... (: 21:08:44 nothingHappens_ [~nothingHa@74-84-107-90.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 21:08:54 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-105-78.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:55 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.105.78] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:09:07 antifuchs: that's my issue. a normal OS will make those writes randomly across the device. 21:09:07 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 21:09:18 anyway - slava of http://www.rethinkdb.com/ has a few interesting things to say about this 21:09:34 ...that aren't sweeping generalizations. they have a pretty comprehensive test suite for SSDs 21:09:39 in sbcl if I execute a .lisp file like: sbcl --script src.lisp 21:09:58 and there is a src.fasl file in the same directory 21:10:07 does it use the compiled machine code in the src.fasl file? 21:10:10 1 trillion transactions per second? 21:10:12 wow 21:10:17 antifuchs: my friend's SSD is said to have an issue with being twice as fast as SATA-2 at continuous writes and pushing it with random... anyway, it's fast enough that he can use portage like it was a binary repo ;_; 21:10:51 catphive: if you pass the .lisp file name, it should use that, not the .fasl 21:10:59 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.105.78] has joined #lisp 21:11:15 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-105-78.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:11:22 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 21:11:32 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:13 -!- infiniteloop [~infinitel@208.123.162.2] has quit [Quit: infiniteloop] 21:12:50 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.105.78] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:13:07 ah, thanks 21:13:40 so it's possible to make .lisp files executable on unix using #! /interpreter 21:13:45 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.105.78] has joined #lisp 21:13:53 is there a similar trick for .fasl files? 21:13:55 catphive: if it doesn't, I'd consider that a bug... also, if you omit .lisp, my feeling is that it'll use the fasl 21:14:09 yeah, I think the --script parameter is meant to allow exactly that 21:14:45 I see it documented only for .lisp files, but I heard rumors you could do that with .fasl files, too? Not sure 21:14:56 ok 21:16:19 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 21:18:04 Landr [~user@dD5770E3C.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 21:18:08 -!- aerique [~euqirea@aerique.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 21:20:53 cataska: #! works with fasls too 21:21:19 thanks 21:21:23 it's just that fasl compatibility is so easy to break we don't advertise it 21:21:47 because then people would be tempted to distribute #! fasls 21:21:53 ah 21:22:01 and the would not work for others, and everyone would be sad 21:22:07 so, I've been compiling through slime so far 21:22:12 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-187-107.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:22:17 I assume there's a way to compile from the command line with sbcl? 21:22:24 and I could plug that into a make file? 21:22:34 why would you want to do that? 21:22:58 the real answer is to have a .asd file for your stuff, and use asdf to compile your files 21:23:17 ah, ok, I'm brand new to cl and haven't tried asdf so far 21:23:44 -!- milanj [~milanj_@178-223-141-220.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 21:23:45 I though it was a packaging system, but you can use it as a build script as well? 21:24:06 but... yes: sbcl --eval '(compile-file "foo.lisp")' works -- it's just a very ass-backwards way to do things 21:24:14 milanj [~milanj_@178-223-141-220.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 21:24:16 asdf is mainly a build system 21:24:23 ok, great 21:24:39 catphive: the package system in CL is more like a namespace system. ASDF is a system definition facility (which means it's a way to define groups of lisp files, and dependencies on other systems, that it can then build in a certain order) 21:25:04 ok, that makes sense 21:25:31 catphive: quicklisp is an example of a distribution system that makes it easy to download and load ASDF systems. 21:25:44 yeah, I'm using that now 21:25:48 (which I think is what others call a 'packaging system', like easy_install) 21:25:58 you put a foo.asd file in your src/foo directory, and write (defsystem :foo :serial t :components ((:file "package") (:file "foo"))) in there. then you tell asdf about src/foo directory, and lo! (load-system :foo) will compile and load everything 21:26:33 (assuming you have just two files, "package.lisp" and "foo.lisp", that is) 21:26:53 thanks 21:26:55 catphive: (ql:quickload 'quickproject) 21:27:49 it really starts earning its pay when you depend on third-party libraries: then you add :depends-on (:alexandria :cl-ppcre) there -- or whatever you depend on -- and asdf will load those if they aren't yet loaded 21:27:52 (quickproject:make-project #P"/home/me/src/foo/") 21:30:26 HET2 [~diman@cpc12-cdif12-2-0-cust276.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:32:07 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:33:11 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:35:26 -!- rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:39:08 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:42:54 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@h73n7c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 21:46:43 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:46:51 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@240.29.195.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:49:46 amb007 [~a_bakic@240.29.195.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:51 -!- jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.56] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:50:15 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-70-208.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 21:52:02 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 21:52:29 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-169.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:55:35 anyone used zpb-ttf or familiar with ttf? 21:55:59 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:56:13 i'm not sure how you tell when a contour is "inside" or "outside" .. i must be missing something obvious 21:58:43 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-169.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 21:58:51 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:59:31 I'm having some trouble with an example from practical common lisp 21:59:42 catphive pasted "trouble with practical common lisp" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122515 22:00:11 it seems to not like my use of with-open-file 22:00:15 catphive: "supersede", not "supercede" 22:00:34 ah 22:00:34 thanks 22:00:42 rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 22:01:05 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.236.132] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:01:15 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.236.132] has joined #lisp 22:02:39 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-52-113.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 22:02:39 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:02:40 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 22:02:41 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-52-113.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Changing host] 22:02:41 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 22:03:30 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:04:55 <_6502_> When building sbcl 1.0.13 i get this error: x86-assem.S:133: Error: operand type mismatch for `fnstsw' 22:05:43 -!- Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:05:56 _6502_: that's a very old sbcl; gas's changed since then. 22:06:18 That line reads like fnstsw %eax. Make that fnstsw %ax. 22:08:37 <_6502_> pkhuong: i know it's old... i'm doing sort of an archeological work (finding what's the oldest version of SBCL that can load quicklisp correctly) 22:10:19 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-70-208.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:10:30 replore [~replore@ntkngw256114.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:10:43 _6502_: what for? I know that it's worth it when you need to test porting patches from 1.0.18 but why? 22:12:18 <_6502_> p_l|backup: no idea... xach told it is valuable information... so far i checked with ABCL, CUMUCL, CCL, CLISP 22:12:43 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:11 zmv [~daniel@c9533906.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 22:13:14 -!- replore [~replore@ntkngw256114.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:13:52 _6502_: How far back did you go with cmucl? Just curious. 22:14:23 <_6502_> rtoym: 2009-11 is the first that breaks 22:15:04 _6502_: Do you remember how it breaks? A CLOS issue? 22:15:15 what's the difference between setf and setq? 22:15:25 <_6502_> rtoym: http://pastebin.com/6zL9D36g 22:15:46 catphive: setq sets symbols. setf sets everything. 22:16:24 catphive: check the hyperspec for details; but setq is a more convenient form of SET with an additional bit of convenience (symbol macro expansion) 22:17:03 _6502_: Well, that's just weird. I wonder why? But it doesn't matter. 2009-11 is old enough that it doesn't matter (to me). 22:17:07 antifuchs: originally, that is. 22:17:29 austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:30 <_6502_> pkhuong: hmmm... 1.0.13 failed building asdf-install, i suppose it's pointless to check with quicklisp 22:17:33 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:17:38 beach [~user@116.118.2.34] has joined #lisp 22:17:59 -!- zmv [~daniel@c9533906.virtua.com.br] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:18:13 zmv [~daniel@c9533906.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 22:18:28 pkhuong: I don't understand that comment (: 22:18:31 Good morning everyone! 22:18:48 thanks 22:19:03 -!- elliottcable is now known as ec|detached 22:19:39 antifuchs: SETQ was a shorthand for SET/QUOTE back when we only had dynamic scoping. 22:19:42 <_6502_> argh... run-sbcl.sh is missing from 1.0.13 ... how can I run it? 22:19:55 pkhuong: ah, yes, that. 22:22:00 -!- promus [~quickstac@cpe-67-243-40-160.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:22:06 <_6502_> hmmm 22:22:43 _6502_: ./src/runtime/sbcl --core output/sbcl.core usually works (: 22:22:53 (that is, it should work even in 0.6.x (-: 22:22:58 muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 22:23:20 out of curiosity, why are you running that old version? (: 22:23:22 <_6502_> antifuchs: i tried but chokes because it's loading part of my current sbcl stuff and doesn't like some FASL file format 22:23:27 oh 22:23:32 yeah, use --userinit /dev/null 22:24:40 -!- redline6561-work [~redline65@cei-gla-cpk2.coxinc.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:24:46 <_6502_> nope... same problem 22:25:23 <_6502_> antifuchs: however the build told me that asdf-install wasn't built or didn't pass the test... may be that's the problem? 22:26:04 do you have a distribution build of sbcl installed? debian or ubuntu? 22:26:13 because then you should also use --sysinit /dev/null (: 22:26:51 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-178-201-97.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:26:56 is there any point to putting #' in front of a lambda expression in CL? 22:27:08 I thought a lambda evaluated to a function 22:27:14 catphive: only if you're trying to make a point (: 22:27:16 <_6502_> antifuchs: i've compiled sbcl from sources (1.0.44), but i don't remember the details (i basically typed in everything i was told to do from people here) 22:27:50 <_6502_> catphive: that is something i never really understood well either 22:28:31 I can understand it in front of a symbol. elisp has a similar restriction 22:29:04 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@80-218-247-218.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:29:09 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc12-cdif12-2-0-cust276.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:29:34 catphive: (lambda () ) and #'(lambda () ) evaluate to the same thing. when read, that code doesn't have the same structure though 22:29:48 the latter is (function (lambda ())). important when writing macros 22:30:10 <_6502_> antifuchs: why important? 22:30:23 but yeah, it really doesn't matter, unless you like one form more than the other 22:30:36 because that form is what the macro gets. 22:30:44 -!- nothingHappens_ is now known as centipedefarmer_ 22:30:53 if you're walking code, that might not be what you're expecting 22:31:11 _6502_: Because if you take (say) the CAR of the former, you get LAMBDA and if you take the CAR of the latter, you get FUNCTION. 22:31:57 <_6502_> antifuchs: oh... ok, got it 22:32:04 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: "Object-oriented design" is an oxymoron] 22:32:05 oudeis [~oudeis@109.65.204.209] has joined #lisp 22:32:07 -!- centipedefarmer_ [~nothingHa@74-84-107-90.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:32:18 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@42.Red-217-125-2.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:32:40 <_6502_> what i really never understood is the philosophical reason for that oddity 22:33:33 <_6502_> because IIRC i read somewhere (on lisp?) that (lambda (x) ...) indeed is a macro expanding to #'(lambda (x) ...) 22:33:42 yup. One fewer special form. 22:35:54 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:36:05 -!- kodovangelis [~kodovange@188-230-154-130.dynamic.t-2.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:36:14 <_6502_> pkhuong: but then (function x) cannot be a macro expanding to (symbol-function 'x) ... 22:36:43 it's not. 22:37:00 Even without LAMBDA, it wouldn't be. 22:37:06 <_6502_> pkhuong: so you're trading one special form (lambda) for another (function) 22:37:13 <_3b> is Keene's first name Sonya or Sonja? 22:37:14 yeah, that's not how function works. symbol-function doesn't look in the lexical environment. 22:37:22 _6502_: no. 22:37:38 _3b: amazon credits Sonya 22:37:41 *_3b* finally got around to getting a copy of OOP in CL, and it says Sonja on the outside, and Sonya on the inside 22:38:20 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:38:43 <_6502_> oh... i never thought that function would work in the lexical env... 22:38:46 _3b: heh. sounds like a fun misprint (: 22:39:03 _6502_: look up FLET and LABELS - it's the only way to pass those around (: 22:39:17 _3b: I am guessing it is a transliteration from some other language, so it is probably a matter of taste. 22:39:41 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@a89-153-163-131.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 22:40:10 -!- cerebral_monkey [~berkley@c-68-35-238-30.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has left #lisp 22:40:26 -!- xpf [~xpf@78.31.74.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:40:28 _3b: In Swedish for instance, that name is spelled Sonja, but if you want speakers of English to pronounce it right, you would write it Sonya. 22:40:29 <_6502_> antifuchs: yeah... this makes sense, i just never thought about it before (used #' with local functions but without stopping to think on why it was working) 22:41:06 <_3b> beach: yeah, that might explain it, still odd to have it different in different parts of the book though :) 22:41:16 _3b: Indeed. 22:41:40 <_3b> heh, amazon has it Sonya on the thumbnail of teh cover and Sonja on the zoomed in version :p 22:41:54 _3b: ahahaha 22:43:12 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:43:20 -!- sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:44:31 the Front Matter says 2nd printing. I wonder if the thumbnail was from the first printing :) 22:44:33 rgrau` [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:45 lolsuper_ [~super_@pool-96-254-154-66.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:45 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@pool-96-254-154-66.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:44:45 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 22:44:52 or the cover is not reprinted? who knows. 22:45:46 <_3b> seems they've been chopping off progressively more of teh right side of the book every printing too... noticable gap between triangle on the bottom and edge in thumb, flush with edge in zoomed (2nd printing), cut off on mine (third printing) 22:45:56 -!- splittist [~splittist@76.81.202.62.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:46:15 -!- rgrau [~user@67.Red-83-58-126.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:46:27 haha 22:48:16 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 22:49:04 -!- pyrony [~epic@office1.klout.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:49:48 <_6502_> 1am: sleeptime for me... nite guys 22:49:53 -!- _6502_ [4e0cec91@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.12.236.145] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:52:42 -!- felideon [~felideon@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:54:52 -!- rgrau` [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:55:25 pyrony [~epic@office1.klout.com] has joined #lisp 23:02:59 Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.215.62] has joined #lisp 23:04:10 turbofai` [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:34 -!- turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:04:48 -!- turbofai` is now known as turbofail 23:07:44 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.215.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:07:46 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:07:51 -!- muhdick 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[~pizdets@pool-98-113-194-183.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:25 markskil1eck [~chris@host86-137-32-2.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 23:29:34 sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has joined #lisp 23:30:40 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-162-214.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:31:08 -!- markskilbeck [~chris@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:31:54 So I seem to have managed to put the terminal in raw mode by using sb-posix:tcgetattr and sb-posix:tcsetattr. 23:32:52 And it looks like I can still use cl:read-char from *standard-input*, but I don't know whether that works just by accident. 23:34:41 Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:44 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.215.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:35:45 -!- gozoner [~ebg@ip68-6-68-92.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:36:58 -!- pdlogan 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