00:00:02 Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.197.219] has joined #lisp 00:00:06 I can view the part, which is shorter and has strings, fine. 00:00:21 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:00:29 kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.237.227] has joined #lisp 00:00:46 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-178-201-97.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 00:02:45 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2339B.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:03:59 pnq [~nick@ACA23EDF.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 00:04:37 <|3b|> try M-: slime-net-coding-system RET, and see what it says in the minibuffer 00:05:09 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:05:17 M-: starts a comment line, you mean M-x, right? 00:05:35 <|3b|> M-: not M-; 00:05:49 superflit [~superflit@h-66-166-222-66.chcgilgm.static.covad.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:59 but really, while I do think its cool that CL-PPCRE:SCAN coerces her TARGET-STRING to SIMPLE-STRING, it does mean that one has to pay more attention to what _types_ of objects your willing to let here eat. 00:05:59 Oh, sorry... iso-latin-1-unix 00:06:20 I'm traversing what I can of the structure to see what breaks it. 00:06:46 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.197.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:07:23 Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.197.219] has joined #lisp 00:08:02 This is certainly leaving the realm of the string oriented regexps i'm more familiar with: (cl-ppcre:scan "a" '(#\a #\b #\c)) 00:08:48 <|3b|> might try putting (setq slime-net-coding-system 'utf-8-unix) in ~/.emacs and restart emacs+slime, and see if that helpss 00:09:47 Okay, thanks. 00:10:08 <|3b|> (or evaluate it by hand and just restart slime) 00:10:18 As does this: (cl-ppcre:scan #\a '(#\a #\b #\c)) 00:16:38 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 00:18:59 -!- superflit [~superflit@h-66-166-222-66.chcgilgm.static.covad.net] has quit [Quit: superflit] 00:19:59 hi folks 00:21:08 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 00:21:49 -!- timack [~tim@hlfx62-1-111.ns.sympatico.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:22:43 hello kenanb 00:24:34 hi beach 00:26:39 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 00:29:39 |3b|: That seems to have worked. Thank you. 00:30:44 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:31:10 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483BBBC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:32:05 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:32:58 hmm, it seems portability is really an issue for scheme implementations, nearly the only portable libraries for r5rs are srfi's 00:33:21 and more than half of the implementations have their own object oriented system 00:33:25 kenanb: even those are nonuniformly distributed among implementations 00:33:48 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.163.139] has joined #lisp 00:33:48 kenanb: Don't even bother with portability, it just doesn't exist 00:34:22 yeah. It's one of the reasons why I gave up on Scheme 00:35:06 -!- zmv [~daniel@c9533906.virtua.com.br] has quit [Quit: bye] 00:35:07 and the compliments about having a 50 pages standard suddenly disappears when you really try writing something because you dive deep into the implementation reference 00:37:33 i hope they can achieve some common ground with r7rs, i like the split reference style in r6rs, but unless they get to a point where new r*rs's doesn't rewrite the old ones but only add something new, i am not sure what good it will do 00:38:10 I don't see the point in coming up with new languages if you aren't going to do anything about parallelism 00:38:45 -!- srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:42:26 btw is there a way to make slime comment out resulting values in the file itself when you evaluate some code, kind of like "worksheet" style of corman lisp or mit-scheme edwin 00:42:36 funny, I am right now setting up Erlang project :D 00:42:38 cheezus [~Adium@69-196-141-102.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 00:42:59 p_l|backup: Does erlang do anything about it? 00:43:43 you evaluate a code snippet and the result is printed in the next line as a comment, it sometimes provides very nice workflow if you make so many mistakes in your code :D 00:44:13 drdo: rlang is more about concurrency than parallelizm, but yes, it was design with maaaaaaaany processes in mind 00:44:17 MasterBismuth [~MasterBis@63-231-111-140.clsp.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:44:18 *Erlang 00:44:30 p_l|backup: I'm not very concerned with concurrency 00:44:38 rlang is a good name though 00:44:46 -!- MasterBismuth [~MasterBis@63-231-111-140.clsp.qwest.net] has left #lisp 00:44:48 The important thing is to something about parallelism 00:44:58 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 00:45:08 *to do 00:45:09 *|3b|* wants to just use some old languages for parallelism :p 00:45:26 *|3b|* is not sufficiently motivated to actually implement them though :( 00:46:30 drdo: yes, but there are different kinds of parallelism. Erlang deals with it quite well with shared-nothing language runtime (other than certain specially designed services, like ETS/DETS) 00:46:57 otoh, Erlang/OTP is as much an Operating System as a programming language 00:47:12 I was thinking about this recently 00:47:37 I don't see why we shouldn't move gargabe collection to the operating system 00:48:31 ... there are conflicting ideas on that. Personally, I'd like a meta-gc protocol ;-) 00:49:12 so I could replace OS-level mmory management with my own per address space, then have "standard GC" as part of available system services 00:49:34 (L4 allows for quite easy way to implement something like that) 00:49:36 kpreid [~kpreid@nat/google/x-hquswjsyrznqpttj] has joined #lisp 00:50:45 redline6561-work [~redline65@c-76-122-89-46.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:47 -!- ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has left #lisp 00:50:58 p_l|backup: I'm just thinking that the kernel could do a much better job since it would manage everything running, instead of having this separation by process 00:52:05 And i'm also thinking that the kernel could do a much better job deciding if something should run in parallel 00:53:54 not really - that would take away domain-specific knowledge. OTOH, a well-done MxN threading system might provide the best mix between kernel and user threads 00:54:08 *kenanb* pretends he has an idea what folks are talking about, he hasn't. 00:54:58 p_l|backup: Do you know about any language that has some solution for parallelism? 00:55:13 Meaning that i shouldn't have to decide when to spawn a new thread 00:55:43 fortran and variants can be pretty good. Cilk as well. 00:55:49 It should be able to decide when to run things in parallel 00:55:59 fortran? 00:56:30 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@96.31.242.194] has quit [Quit: home!] 00:56:36 drdo: actually, OpenMP extensions. You had to explicitly write your code in parallel, but the amount of threads was set separately 00:56:41 there are also some languages based on message passing at a very low level, where things like variable assignment is a message pass 00:56:45 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-119-189.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:56:53 the compiler then decides what to _serialize_ instead of what to parallelize 00:57:03 so sort of the same problem, but from a different approach 00:57:19 sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has joined #lisp 00:57:22 occam comes to mind with that 00:58:07 I don't know how much haskell auto-parallelizes, but I think it might have some facility to do so 00:58:27 I was checking out haskell's par 00:58:28 wasn't occam more about multiple cooperating processes, like Erlang? 00:58:33 looks a lot like futures 00:58:39 like in racket and guile 00:58:43 everything in occam is a process, even function calls & variable assignments 00:58:55 erlang is much more coarse grained 00:59:33 and erlang configuration remains painfully manual 00:59:50 though 3rd party libs seek to alleviate some of that 01:00:00 jingtao [~jingtaozf@61.49.110.60] has joined #lisp 01:00:05 well, occam relied on custom hardware, didn't it? 01:00:14 no 01:00:22 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.205.165] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 01:00:28 it was written to take advantage of the transputer architecture, but it's a general purpose language 01:00:53 mind you, I've not used it, only read about it 01:04:32 More and more I wonder if the parallelizm that many seem so keen on achieving is even possbible. Why bother? What are the big gains? 01:04:42 chp [~chp@2001:da8:a000:155:5eff:35ff:fe0c:c3ef] has joined #lisp 01:04:43 depends on the workload 01:04:53 I agree that many situations don't really need it 01:05:01 but even consider something like a word processor 01:05:16 you've got a spellchecker or reformatter or something that serially traverses the entire document 01:05:33 and you load up a 3GB document on a 12-core box 01:05:37 is parallelism or concurrency harder to achieve? from what i just read about their definitions, i thought concurrency is more complex 01:05:41 and only 1 core spins on doing that work, taking too long 01:05:52 kenanb: parallelism and concurrency are orthogonal. 01:06:17 Phoodus: parallelism isn't gonna make XML any less moronic.... 01:06:43 pkhuong: but they are kinda different, right? 01:07:00 mon_key: What are the big gains? 01:07:00 kenanb: they are only accidentally related. 01:07:07 ah, i see 01:07:13 Not having your machine with hundreds of processors doing nothing 01:07:19 -!- foocraft_ [~ewanas@78.101.125.51] has quit [Quit: if you're going....to san. fran. cisco!!!] 01:07:22 which is what we're likely to have in a few years 01:07:45 drdo: Sure. but that doesn't seem like a justification... more like a rationale. 01:07:53 so why is parallelism an issue hard to achieve, isn't it something like, you spawn threads, ok, you did it 01:08:10 kenanb: How many threads do you spawn? 01:08:27 kenanb: and then it doesn't work. Coding is just like, you type things on a computer, ok, you did it. 01:08:35 drdo: ah, so the issue is the size of threading? 01:09:13 kenanb: How much you parallelize depends on how many processors you have, the current workload, etc 01:09:35 pkhuong: i didn't mean to make it seem like a non-issue, i was trying to give the perspective i look at the issue, since i know nothing about it :) 01:10:04 sabalabas [~sabalaba@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:33 -!- jingtao [~jingtaozf@61.49.110.60] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:10:39 jingtao [~jingtaozf@61.49.110.60] has joined #lisp 01:12:01 i always thought the issue is more about how the data will be shared between the threads, what data will be shared between them, or something like that, managing that kind of stuff 01:12:16 -!- gartt [~gart@ip68-0-206-237.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:12:20 how is cl on parallelizm? 01:13:27 undecided. Many implementations provide basic building blocks, but none provide sophisticated or principled tools. 01:15:07 Speaking of which, what is the overhead of creating and destroying a thread? I am just looking for an order of magnitude here. Assume current SBCL on Linux if necessary. 01:15:51 -!- sabalabas [~sabalaba@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:16:21 expensive. Couple syscalls. 01:16:30 beach: kernel thread? I recall something about one order of magnitude less than full process, but still expensive 01:16:44 So many milliseconds? 01:16:45 kenanb: basic threading tools 01:17:07 there's much bigger win on Windows NT, which has very expensive process creation 01:17:08 beach: not that much. 01:17:23 beach: but you don't want to spawn threads in a loop. 01:18:02 Phoodus: i am guessing commercial implementations - especially/only allegro and lispworks - are a little ahead on this subject? 01:18:12 pkhuong: Sure. I am thinking of something like the sequences dictionary where it might be advantageous on some implementations, and under certain conditions to spawn several threads. 01:18:26 klutometis [klutometis@pdpc/supporter/professional/klutometis] has joined #lisp 01:18:27 kenanb: not really. There are some open-source libs that raise the level of abstraction, though. And it's not hard to do yourself, being lisp and all ;) 01:18:39 Phoodus: what libs? 01:18:42 beach: thread pooling is the norm for that sort of thing. 01:18:51 i remind bordoaux threads 01:18:57 not sure if it is related 01:19:01 pkhuong: Oh, right. That would be significantly faster. 01:19:01 bordeaux threads is just a trivial lib 01:19:06 jingtao` [~jingtaozf@61.49.110.60] has joined #lisp 01:19:08 for portability 01:19:18 centipedefarmer [~nothingHa@173-29-195-221.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 01:19:27 drdo: there are a lot of threadpool & message passing libs: http://www.cliki.net/concurrency 01:19:31 -!- jingtao [~jingtaozf@61.49.110.60] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:19:38 though I can't vouch for them; we've rolled our own 01:19:43 Phoodus: that's not what i'm looking for 01:20:02 automatic parallelization is what i'm talking about 01:20:08 ah 01:20:18 that's not what I was talking about to kenan ;) 01:20:42 just raising the level of abstraction in manually dealing with parallelism, not abstracting it away completely 01:23:57 ideally, a language that does auto-parallelization should be based on profiling 01:24:48 longfin [~longfin@175.217.98.183] has joined #lisp 01:25:03 Phoodus: what do you mean? 01:25:38 if there are a bunch of small workloads to do, many times it's faster just to blip them out on a single core in a tight loop 01:26:17 yes of course 01:26:25 so when certain workloads get slow, and the compiler is aware of what possible parallel fan-outs are available, it should decide where to paralelize based on performance 01:26:33 what's the entire problem 01:26:39 figuring out when to parallelize 01:26:59 -!- redline6561-work [~redline65@c-76-122-89-46.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 01:27:09 *that's 01:27:34 and I don't consider that sort of thing really possible at compile-time; I envision such a thing as settling in on the right parallelization decisions "eventually" as the system runs 01:27:55 yes, of course 01:28:20 current JIT compilers do a lot of stuff like that 01:28:27 yep 01:28:38 though maybe not necessarily with parallelism 01:29:01 I meant that they collect profiling information at runtime, to make decisions 01:29:29 and as such, I don't really see that as a bolt-on library to existing languages 01:30:01 It's possible, but it would be better served as an intrinsic part of the language/vm/abi/etc itself 01:30:21 that's why i was asking about languages that did that before :) 01:31:19 I think SQL might count as a language that does, but it's not necessarily a programming language ;) 01:31:29 but the more declarative you get, the more feasible it is IMO 01:31:30 task stealing is provably optimal under some measures. 01:33:39 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@nat/google/x-hquswjsyrznqpttj] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:35:42 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A6C64.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:38:17 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-223-253.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:39:59 pkhuong: the challenge then is still to split "regular" code into parallelizable tasks 01:41:52 sure. But given that the programmer does that, the dynamic scheduling itself is known to be pretty good. 01:43:45 which is a big given 01:43:54 guy steel gave a pretty good talk at ICFP09 about that 01:44:04 it's available online 01:44:05 -!- npoektop [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:44:05 in terms of actally having the task boundaries in efficient places 01:44:28 no, that's the point: with task stealing, you don't have to worry about too fine granularity. 01:45:32 if the granularity is too fine, you end up with more overhead in the task dispatch system than in the actual task bodies 01:45:34 That gives you the "eventually right parallelisation decisions" without complicated analyses; it's all in the runtime system. 01:45:59 that's only if you implement tasklets wrong. An un-stolen task costs the same as a function call in Cilk. 01:46:40 that's interesting 01:49:05 *Phoodus* is reading the cilk wiki page 01:49:19 that does sound like some of these discussed concepts applied 01:49:29 shame about the sync keyword being required, at first glance 01:49:56 that's an extension from the original pure-fork/join framework. 01:50:13 Those are very old tricks, as well. Late 80's to early 90's. We just forgot about it during the megahertz wars. 01:52:08 though as I said above, my preference would be to explicitly list sequential dependencies where required, with parallel-ability being the default :) 01:52:15 instead of the other way around 01:52:30 Phoodus: exactly 01:53:39 actually, you never need to specify dependencies 01:54:00 the only time you actually need sequencing is for side effects 01:54:26 and for performance hints 01:54:34 a la prolog "green cuts" 01:54:35 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:57:33 Phoodus: the way haskell's seq is used 01:59:04 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:59:23 tzk_ [~tzk@201.102.93.38] has joined #lisp 02:05:11 optikalmouse [~user@bas1-toronto07-1176122802.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:05:18 has anyone ever used XLISP or NyQuist? 02:06:48 armence [~armence@unaffiliated/armence] has joined #lisp 02:07:31 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.167.210.109] has joined #lisp 02:10:40 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@adsl-184-32-11-41.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 02:10:41 Atomsk [ace4016@adsl-184-32-11-41.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:46 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 02:10:49 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:11:10 Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.228.40.23] has joined #lisp 02:11:26 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 02:11:42 jingtao`` [~jingtaozf@61.149.0.105] has joined #lisp 02:11:49 -!- jingtao`` [~jingtaozf@61.149.0.105] has left #lisp 02:12:43 gartt [~gart@ip68-0-206-237.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:56 -!- jingtao` [~jingtaozf@61.49.110.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:12:58 -!- Atomsk [ace4016@adsl-184-32-11-41.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:15:06 -!- gartt [~gart@ip68-0-206-237.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:15:27 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-32-11-41.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:15:41 sharps [~hazel@121-72-240-85.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #lisp 02:15:45 optikalmouse: i'm pretty sure some people in #audacity has used it ;) 02:16:46 ugh, I've been reading through the examplesa 02:16:53 and it looks awful ;p 02:19:54 dmiles_afk [dmiles@c-24-21-133-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:20:45 -!- Soulman [~knute@250.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 02:21:29 -!- jweiss-brb [~user@cpe-069-134-063-238.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:23:04 redline6561-work [~redline65@c-76-122-89-46.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:25:49 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-176-90.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:25:49 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-32-11-41.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:27:20 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-32-11-41.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:22 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-32-11-41.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:27:54 -!- strout [~strout@ip-64-255-129-222.ideaone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:28:50 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-169.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 02:29:31 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-169.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:29:58 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-32-11-41.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:30:13 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-32-11-41.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:32:36 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-32-11-41.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:03 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-176-90.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:33:25 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-176-90.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:34:08 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-77-166.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 02:34:11 -!- armence [~armence@unaffiliated/armence] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:34:54 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-32-11-41.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:35:36 billyr [4c66cc0c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.102.204.12] has joined #lisp 02:36:29 hi how do you declare a "byref" parameter in emacs lisp? thx 02:36:58 <|3b|> #emacs knows more about emacs lisp 02:37:08 thank you 02:37:14 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-32-11-41.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:37:30 -!- billyr [4c66cc0c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.102.204.12] has left #lisp 02:39:37 Yes they do, the poor bastards 02:39:47 oops, did I say that out loud? 02:40:34 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-32-11-41.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:42:47 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-32-11-41.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:45:12 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.228.40.23] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:46:52 -!- ace4016 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04:59:31 sykopomp [~user@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has joined #lisp 05:02:52 -!- optikalmouse [~user@bas1-toronto07-1176122802.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:02:52 -!- sykopomp [~user@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:03:40 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:03:41 sykopomp [~user@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has joined #lisp 05:07:19 centipedefarmer [~nothingHa@173-29-195-221.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 05:08:39 -!- ec|detached is now known as elliottcable 05:12:18 -!- promus [~quickstac@cpe-67-243-40-160.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:12:19 Yuzu- [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:14:25 a5h15h [~a5h15h@59.95.26.59] has joined #lisp 05:14:54 -!- a5h15h [~a5h15h@59.95.26.59] has quit [Changing host] 05:14:54 a5h15h [~a5h15h@unaffiliated/a5h15h] has joined #lisp 05:15:38 -!- centipedefarmer [~nothingHa@173-29-195-221.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:17:50 dmiles [dmiles@c-24-21-133-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:50 -!- dmiles_afk [dmiles@c-24-21-133-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:21:25 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.117.207] has joined #lisp 05:22:06 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-176-90.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 05:25:46 HELPMEFINDHIM [46b3a973@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.179.169.115] has joined #lisp 05:25:49 AY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 05:26:04 What award-winning game was made in lisp? 05:26:34 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@mc55336d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:26:35 is this a quiz? 05:26:44 I would really love to know. 05:26:54 And thanks for responding; I would've masspinged all of you 05:27:19 ... 05:29:22 mobydick [~textual@124-171-177-47.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 05:32:03 answer, sharps, please. 05:32:19 Why do you do this? 05:32:55 -!- Atomsk [ace4016@adsl-184-32-11-41.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: When there's nothing left to burn you have to set yourself on fire.] 05:34:26 sure. the Jak & Daxter games used a custom lisp called GOAL for game logic and AI. Can't remember what awards they won, though. 05:35:25 Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #lisp 05:36:53 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:36:58 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA23EDF.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Quit: sleep] 05:40:14 HELPMEFINDHIM: lisp was alsoo used to help develop Ballblazer and Rescue on Fractalus, on Atari in the 80's 05:40:26 http://www.langston.com/Papers/vidgam.pdf 05:40:29 whoa, ancient 05:40:33 how old the hell is lisp anyway 05:40:41 52 years. 05:41:10 wtf; older than both my parents! 05:41:28 I seem to remember this exact exchange happening a few times in this channel already 05:41:40 just within the last week or so 05:41:50 heh, who was it? 05:41:50 -!- sykopomp [~user@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:42:16 dunno, somebody called "helpmefindher" or something 05:42:18 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-169-55.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:42:38 if a virus was like a car-crash, and struck lisp, would it be as bad as a crash is on the car that's as old as lisp?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joMK1WZjP7g 05:43:11 -!- cbp [~cesarbol9@189.247.7.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:43:19 man, what kinds of computers did we have in '59? any at home? 05:43:37 (you couldn't program lisp on a typewriter could you? doubt it.) 05:43:55 Those of us who are well connected had quantum computing back then already 05:44:12 of course, everybody's just rediscovering today what we already had then 05:45:00 -!- pjb` [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:45:33 LAWL, Phoodus, {{cite please}} 05:45:45 sorry, classified 05:47:57 sykopomp [~user@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has joined #lisp 05:50:41 -!- replore [~replore@ntkngw256114.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:51:00 -!- sykopomp [~user@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has quit [Changing host] 05:51:00 sykopomp [~user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 05:51:49 .....|..... 05:51:59 -!- poindontcare [~user@cloudbovina.bovinasancta.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:52:50 genieliu [~genieliu@59.78.62.120] has joined #lisp 05:55:44 -!- genieliu [~genieliu@59.78.62.120] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:56:03 genieliu [~genieliu@59.78.62.120] has joined #lisp 05:56:53 longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has joined #lisp 05:59:55 -!- Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:00:57 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has joined #lisp 06:02:00 hey guys 06:03:36 -!- HELPMEFINDHIM [46b3a973@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.179.169.115] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 06:10:29 -!- genieliu [~genieliu@59.78.62.120] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 06:11:37 genieliu [~genieliu@59.78.62.120] has joined #lisp 06:16:07 -!- sykopomp [~user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:19:32 sykopomp [~user@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has joined #lisp 06:19:32 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-120-202.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 06:19:56 ThatHippie [~Talkky@client-66-116-13-202.consolidated.net] has joined #lisp 06:20:34 -!- sykopomp [~user@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:21:50 sykopomp [~user@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has joined #lisp 06:23:16 gst [~gst@w-albuq-9-12.7cities.net] has joined #lisp 06:28:15 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 06:30:39 HG` [~HG@xdsl-188-118-166-171.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 06:34:41 -!- ThatHippie [~Talkky@client-66-116-13-202.consolidated.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 263 seconds] 06:39:11 -!- benny [~benny@i577A32C8.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:39:50 -!- gst [~gst@w-albuq-9-12.7cities.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 06:40:09 basho- [~basho-@dslb-188-108-010-223.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:42:50 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-169-55.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:43:22 -!- a5h15h [~a5h15h@unaffiliated/a5h15h] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 06:50:14 -!- churib [~churib@95.156.194.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:50:20 churib [~churib@95.156.194.105] has joined #lisp 06:55:13 ThatHippie [~Talkky@client-66-116-13-202.consolidated.net] has joined #lisp 06:55:13 -!- ThatHippie [~Talkky@client-66-116-13-202.consolidated.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:55:21 -!- sykopomp [~user@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:57:37 sykopomp [~user@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has joined #lisp 06:58:11 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-169-55.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:58:31 -!- sykopomp [~user@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has quit [Changing host] 06:58:31 sykopomp [~user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 07:00:00 -!- cheezus [~Adium@69-196-141-102.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:00:16 jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-184.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:03:53 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-38-157-5.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:04:06 is it possible to concatenate a string with an integer to produce a string? 07:07:13 (format nil "~a~a" "onetwothree" 123) ? 07:07:31 but no, not with the function named concatenate 07:07:32 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.228.40.23] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:07:37 (concatenate 'string a-string (princ-to-string an-integer)) 07:07:54 ok, fine 07:08:57 pjb: ok thanks so "princ-to-string" translates a variable into a string? 07:10:07 any form, not just a variable 07:10:12 (princ-to-string (+ 1 2)) 07:10:19 pjb: just answered my own question, thanks heaps! 07:10:48 phoodus: oh sweet, will come in handy im sure 07:12:11 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-112-44.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:13:36 -!- tzk_ [~tzk@201.102.93.38] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:14:40 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-157-215.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 07:15:11 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-49-103.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:15:11 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 07:16:38 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-77-166.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 07:17:40 kiuma [~kiuma@93-35-251-44.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:18:02 hello #lisp 07:18:18 hello 07:18:27 hello 07:19:59 jmbr [~jmbr@115.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 07:20:47 does anybody know why FLEXI-STREAMS::VECTOR-INPUT-STREAM does not implement FLEXI-STREAMS:FLEXI-STREAM-POSITION ? 07:21:32 Phoodus: not any form, any _value_ ; arguments to functions are always passed by value. 07:21:42 vector-input-stream comes from make-in-memory-input-stream 07:25:27 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@143.93.249.58] has joined #lisp 07:25:28 <_3b> FILE-POSITION not good enough? 07:25:52 fusss [~chatzilla@lushevents.net] has joined #lisp 07:28:25 pjb: right, it doesn't just take variables in terms of the form given to be evaluated 07:29:07 regarding the specific question asked 07:31:30 alexandria is like a good fungus, it grows on your code. Started to use it for 2-3 utils, now can't write much without it 07:31:49 _3b, the exception comes from a call to (read-sequence buff s :start 2 :end 4) 07:32:31 fusss: I can understand that, only I have my own private CESARUM... 07:32:54 So in the end, I don't use alexandria so much. 07:33:14 nih ;-) 07:33:15 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.117.207] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:33:19 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 07:33:27 You guys are fucking enabling the lisp curse article guy 07:33:31 No, mine existed before alexandria, and has always been free software. 07:33:37 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.117.207] has joined #lisp 07:33:38 I'm the victim of GPL racism. 07:33:44 drdo: maybe he was right! 07:33:56 He didn't take into account license fragmentation either. 07:33:57 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.117.207] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:33:59 when did alexandria start, or become popular? 07:34:10 One or two years ago. 07:34:15 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.117.207] has joined #lisp 07:34:27 yeah, our lib is older than that too 07:34:27 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.117.207] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:34:27 <_3b> kiuma: hmm, seems to work here, maybe lisppaste a backtrace or code or something? 07:34:34 Phoodus: right after Arnesi 07:34:36 ok 07:34:46 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.117.207] has joined #lisp 07:34:49 Phoodus: 3rd century BC 07:34:52 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@143.93.249.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:34:54 Not that i'm too surprised 07:35:12 Utils are fun to write 07:35:23 And having to talk and agree on shit with others is a hassle 07:35:32 *fusss* is avoiding the nasty non-working !foreign clauses in Postmodern (win32, ccl) .. even after bugging marijn for a sample snippet :-( 07:36:07 well, we are considering merging our lib with alexandria 07:36:13 when we open source our stuff 07:36:26 just to promote some semblance of standardization 07:37:20 _3b, http://paste.lisp.org/display/122472 07:37:20 Each time you say open source rms kills a kitten 07:38:27 dho 07:38:28 indenting properly before pasting would be a good idea 07:39:09 anyone else using closure-template? the thing badly needs a type-checker and I'm itching to embrace/extend it 07:39:32 <_3b> kiuma: so it works until you try to call the undefined method? 07:39:38 -!- Yuzu- [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: I Quit] 07:39:41 yes 07:40:15 Yuzuchan [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:42:38 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:44:04 _3b, and idea on how can I change position i my stream ? 07:44:15 <_3b> (file-position stream position) 07:47:04 -!- elliottcable is now known as ec|detached 07:47:26 benny [~benny@i577A24D7.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 07:47:31 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 07:48:19 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.167.210.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:48:34 there is "File positions" chapter in flexi-streams documentation :) 07:49:37 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:49:38 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.167.210.109] has joined #lisp 07:49:38 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.117.207] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:49:52 -!- Yuzuchan [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: I Quit] 07:50:18 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.117.207] has joined #lisp 07:50:35 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@lushevents.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:51:28 _3b, I'm trying to call it before read-sequence and always have #(99 105 97 111) 07:51:34 *"ciao" 07:51:50 what are you really trying to do? 07:53:05 I'd like to read from byte 5 07:53:26 read from where? 07:53:35 from a stream 07:53:42 what kind of stream? 07:53:54 <_3b> http://paste.lisp.org/+2MI0/1 ? 07:53:57 that "can" be a in-memory-input-stream 07:54:38 <_3b> maybe you have ancient trivial-gray-streams? 07:55:04 _3b, I suppose so 07:55:16 *_3b* would have expected an error rather than ignoring it though 07:55:17 because I still have #(99 105 97 111) 07:55:24 with your code 07:56:05 let me check versions of trivial-gray-streams and flexi 07:56:12 -!- sykopomp [~user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:56:34 dev-lisp/trivial-gray-streams-20081102 07:56:52 adn dev-lisp/flexi-streams-1.0.7 07:56:59 <_3b> yeah, might be too old trivial-gray-streams 07:57:17 *_3b* tries to remember how to use CVS 07:58:03 <_3b> revision 1.8 date: 2009-10-04 SBCL file-position support 07:58:08 is there a way to use my version of trivial-gray-streams instead of the one provided by the system 07:58:13 sykopomp [~user@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has joined #lisp 07:58:14 <_3b> so yeah, might want to update it 07:58:29 *_3b* votes don't use anything provided by the system 07:58:53 trivial-gray-streams i'll ask on #gentoo-lisp to update it 07:59:03 -!- sykopomp [~user@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has quit [Changing host] 07:59:03 sykopomp [~user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 07:59:24 <_3b> but generally, you just need to make sure it gets found first by asdf search... not sure what the best way to do that is though 07:59:28 _3b, just go with quicklisp ? 07:59:38 <_3b> quicklisp is a good solution 08:00:29 what I'm most scared about is package dependencies ! 08:01:28 what? 08:01:50 <_3b> installing/loading dependencies is pretty much the point of quicklisp 08:03:27 _3b, but the archive of trivial-gray-streams is still the outdated one, how will quicklisp handle this ? 08:03:39 should I provide it by hand ? 08:03:55 *_3b* would assume quicklisp has a recent version 08:04:30 kiuma: what made you think that quicklisp uses it? 08:04:31 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.117.207] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:04:31 <_3b> not sure how to tell it to ignore an existing version and install a new one anyway though 08:05:00 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.117.207] has joined #lisp 08:06:21 _3b, 2008-11-2 is from http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-plus-ssl/download/trivial-gray-streams.tar.gz 08:06:35 can you pull old versions via quicklisp for repeatability? 08:07:12 <_3b> from what i understand, that is a goal... don't know how easy/possible it is currently though 08:07:53 right now we've got copies of various libs, plus an entire sbcl source tree of sbcl, in our repository for that purpose :-P 08:07:58 -sbcl 08:08:07 <_3b> kiuma: so don't get it from there? 08:08:43 http://www.cliki.net/trivial-gray-streams 08:08:48 where then ? 08:09:03 <_3b> right, don't get it through asdf-install either 08:09:10 <_3b> quicklisp? 08:09:49 I'll try. 08:09:50 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-169-55.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:10:07 time to switch to quicklisp 08:10:52 <_3b> or from cvs/git, not quite sure where it is if it is in git though 08:11:07 -!- tsanhwa [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:14:16 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 08:14:49 *stassats`* lost it at "it is if it is in" 08:15:17 *Phoodus* list it at "it at \"it is if it is in\"" 08:15:20 lost, even 08:16:53 jingtao [~jingtaozf@61.149.0.62] has joined #lisp 08:17:00 <_3b> and it looks like quicklisp gets trivial-gray-streams from CVS, so it should be current 08:20:38 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-209-51.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:27:32 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 08:28:08 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-209-51.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:28:44 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:30:14 -!- sykopomp [~user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:32:56 -!- milanj [~milanj_@178-223-141-220.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Read error: 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[~gaidal@113.109.117.207] has joined #lisp 11:48:35 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:50:49 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-185-185.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 11:51:06 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.117.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:54:18 -!- genieliu [~genieliu@59.78.62.120] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:55:45 Yuzuchan [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:01:22 [6502] [5e24f712@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.247.18] has joined #lisp 12:02:21 <[6502]> If I use a special as function argument, the binding will still be dynamic? 12:03:06 As argument it doesn't matter, arguments are only passed by value. 12:03:18 Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:03:39 <[6502]> it matters if from the function i call another function that accesses the special... 12:04:06 You're not making any sense. 12:04:21 English is already fuzzy enough... 12:04:40 <[6502]> sorry... i mean if i use a special in a function argument in the defun, not in the call 12:04:48 A parameter then. 12:05:03 <[6502]> yeah 12:05:05 Once the symbol is declared special, it's always special. 12:05:21 So if you use a special as parameter yes, the binding will be special. 12:05:29 -!- brandelune [~suzume@pl571.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: brandelune] 12:05:35 Joreji_ [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:05:47 <[6502]> ok... this is what i thought, however what about function that have been defined before that? 12:06:34 Implementation dependant. 12:06:37 -!- gaidal_ [~gaidal@113.109.117.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:06:43 If you compiled the functions probably it will stay lexical. 12:06:53 In any case it's not conforming. 12:07:17 That's why we're killing ourselve repeating you should use *stars* to name your special variables. 12:07:46 <[6502]> yeah.... I'd say the same 12:08:34 <[6502]> I was thinking about this idea of not using evident names for specials (as stated in Let Over Lambda) 12:08:51 <[6502]> doesn't sound healty 12:09:34 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 12:10:55 <[6502]> healthy 12:11:25 *[6502]* thinks iPad keyboard is good but not that wonderful 12:12:27 The main problem is that it's not configurable. 12:12:28 Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 12:13:22 foocraft [~ewanas@78.101.125.51] has joined #lisp 12:16:48 <[6502]> I simple observed that I make much more typing mistakes with it (especially for words where TH is present). May be it's just a problem about how I type of course. 12:16:58 <[6502]> simply 12:17:20 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-150-156.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:27:33 statonjr [~statonjr@12.130.124.9] has joined #lisp 12:28:31 naiv [~quassel@ARennes-652-1-46-66.w86-214.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:32:32 -!- [6502] [5e24f712@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.247.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:40:39 val081 [~val@host171-14-dynamic.18-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:40:42 hi, who can 12:40:46 help me with lispbox please? 12:42:27 nikodemus_phone [~androirc@178-55-33-50.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 12:43:30 -!- val081 [~val@host171-14-dynamic.18-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:50:27 -!- Yuzuchan [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: I Quit] 12:51:15 genieliu [~genieliu@59.78.62.120] has joined #lisp 12:55:48 -!- nikodemus_phone [~androirc@178-55-33-50.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: AndroIRC] 12:56:05 nikodemus_phone [~androirc@178-55-33-50.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 13:01:20 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:01:27 Joreji_ [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:01:56 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:02:01 Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:02:07 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:07:43 centipedefarmer [~nothingHa@173-29-195-221.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 13:09:19 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:12:20 val935 [irc2gowebc@ppp-212-186.98-62.inwind.it] has joined #lisp 13:12:27 hi 13:12:34 -!- longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:12:42 who can please help me with lispbox problem? 13:12:43 -!- sharps [~hazel@121-72-240-85.cable.telstraclear.net] has left #lisp 13:12:49 I can't save settings.. 13:12:51 longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has joined #lisp 13:16:06 ChibaPet [~mason@c-68-58-147-105.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:18 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 13:17:43 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 13:18:00 arcoxia [~arcoxia@183179017022.ctinets.com] has joined #lisp 13:19:19 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@12.130.124.9] has quit [Quit: statonjr] 13:20:28 statonjr [~statonjr@12.130.124.9] has joined #lisp 13:21:03 -!- centipedefarmer [~nothingHa@173-29-195-221.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:21:06 Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #lisp 13:21:49 vert2 [vert2@newshell1.bshellz.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:57 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:22:00 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:22:06 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@115.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:22:20 -!- ChibaPet [~mason@c-68-58-147-105.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:23:06 -!- vert2 [vert2@newshell1.bshellz.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:23:37 vert2 [vert2@newshell1.bshellz.net] has joined #lisp 13:23:58 Yuzuchan [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:24:00 Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:28:09 val935: step 1, get rid of lispbox 13:28:47 -!- vert2 [vert2@newshell1.bshellz.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:28:52 vert2 [vert2@newshell1.bshellz.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:40 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:31:32 Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:33:32 what would i use? :-\ 13:33:49 ASau [~user@95-27-146-128.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 13:33:50 *should 13:34:09 HET2 [~diman@2.24.251.153] has joined #lisp 13:34:42 val935: what operating system do you use? 13:34:50 wind xp 13:34:57 http://www.mohiji.org/ has some tips for you to try 13:35:03 thank you man 13:35:10 http://www.mohiji.org/2011/01/modern-common-lisp-on-windows/ 13:35:13 i've searching other enviroment but found nothing 13:35:28 good luck! 13:35:48 i've download clisp already 13:36:13 it's just a console... 13:36:56 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@31.141.97.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:39:01 Joreji_ [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:39:51 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Quit: eugu] 13:41:12 alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #lisp 13:41:41 and a laptop is just a screen with a keyboard :> 13:43:53 I'm trying quicklisp instead of gentoo package system (I still have gentoo provided lisp libs). I don't understand why when I call (require :swank) I get the gentoo provided one instead of the quicklisp' ones. 13:44:17 where are your ql files fetched from? 13:44:31 I've already installed slime via quicklisp 13:44:39 all default 13:45:00 francogrex [~user@109.130.69.14] has joined #lisp 13:45:03 eheck your configuration settings? 13:45:06 chec* 13:45:10 asdf... check* 13:46:35 asdf:*central-registry* => (#P"/home/kiuma/quicklisp/quicklisp/") 13:47:08 XPherior [XPherior@206.125.52.254] has joined #lisp 13:48:25 21:43 I'm trying quicklisp instead of gentoo package system (I still have gentoo provided lisp libs). I don't understand why when I call (require :swank) I get the gentoo provided one instead of the quicklisp' ones./quit 13:48:36 -!- arcoxia [~arcoxia@183179017022.ctinets.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 13:52:32 -!- Yuzuchan [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: I Quit] 13:54:09 urandom__ [~user@p548A6A1B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:29 zomgbie [~jesus@212095007106.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 13:55:05 strout [~strout@ip-64-255-129-222.ideaone.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:22 -!- val935 [irc2gowebc@ppp-212-186.98-62.inwind.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:02:40 -!- nikodemus_phone [~androirc@178-55-33-50.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:03:54 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.69.14] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:09:46 -!- strout [~strout@ip-64-255-129-222.ideaone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:13:55 antoni`` [~user@146.pool85-53-27.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 14:16:11 -!- antoni` [~user@146.pool85-53-27.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:17:09 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:17:25 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@12.130.124.9] has quit [Quit: statonjr] 14:22:46 statonjr [~statonjr@12.130.124.9] has joined #lisp 14:25:28 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 14:26:16 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:26:40 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 14:30:07 Are using macro's Lisp way of eliminating duplicate code? 14:32:04 Any kind of abstraction is a mean to eliminate duplicate cod. 14:32:06 e 14:32:27 Macro offer syntactic abstraction, and an entry point to metalinguistic abstraction. 14:32:51 Hm. That's insightful. 14:32:52 Therefore two opportunities for duplicate code elimination. 14:33:15 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-185-185.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:33:22 I guess I don't understand why you would use a macro when you can use functions and pass closures as arguments to that function. 14:33:28 But there are as always data abstraction and functional abstration, with data structure definition (eg. CLOS objects), and normal functions. 14:33:29 It seems like it's almost the same thing 14:33:47 That's the simpliest use of macros, syntactic abstraction. 14:34:00 Right, that makes sense. 14:34:00 If you use functions and closure, you may observe that you will often use lambda. 14:34:14 I think that would arise, yes. 14:34:27 Eg. (defun fif (test then else) (cond ((test (funcall then)) (t (funcall else))))) ; this can also be done without cond.... 14:34:54 Then you will keep writing: (fif (= a 0) (lambda () (print 'null)) (lambda () (do-something (1- a)))) 14:35:20 redline6561-work [~redline65@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:35:21 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 14:35:27 so you can instead write a macro: (defmacro mif (test then else) `(fif ,test (lambda () ,then) (lambda () ,else))) to abstract away this code duplication... 14:35:36 Hm.. 14:35:44 Let me play with that code for a few minutes. 14:35:44 And write (mif (= a 0) (print 'null) (do-something (1- a0))) instead. 14:39:21 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@212095007106.public.telering.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:39:25 Okay, that's making slightly more sense. 14:39:47 Why does Lisp not require you to pass the arguments as lambdas in the macro? 14:40:11 Ohhhhh, because they don't get evaluated, right? 14:40:15 Right. 14:40:28 Holy crap that's cool. 14:40:33 Arguments for functions get evaluated before the function is called, since they're passed by value. 14:41:44 Do people usually prefer functions to macros? Or only use macros when it eliminates duplicate? I'm still kind of fuzzy on when to use which. 14:41:52 Er, prefer macros to functions, rather* 14:42:30 You use functions when you do functional abstraction, and macros when you do syntactic abstraction (or meta-linguistic abstraction). 14:43:05 Meta-linguistic meaning something like a mini DSL? 14:43:06 SICP is strong on all kind of abstraction but syntactic abstraction (ie. it doesn't talk about macros). For macros, have a look at Casting SPELS in Lisp. 14:43:13 Yes. 14:43:23 Not necessarily mini. 14:43:55 tsanhwa [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has joined #lisp 14:44:03 I feel so out of place. I've been programming for a long time and Lisp just totally broke me, haha. 14:44:03 cbp [~cesarbol9@189.247.7.73] has joined #lisp 14:44:26 You should study SICP, it's a mind opener for programmers. 14:44:38 Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-4.html 14:44:47 I tried it a few weeks ago. Destroyed me. I'll try it again soon. 14:44:50 Casting Spels in Lisp http://www.lisperati.com/casting.html 14:45:01 I'll have a look at Spels. Seems pretty neat. 14:45:06 There are also videos with SICP, they may help. 14:45:22 Ah, I didn't know that. Cool. 14:45:24 http://swiss.csail.mit.edu/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/ 14:46:09 I've kind of always been weary of doing anything more than small programs in a functional language. It seems kind of hard to design for larger applications. I know I'm probably wrong, I just don't know why yet. 14:46:13 Thanks for that. 14:46:57 Well, Lisp is not purely functional, it's multi-paradigm. So you do functional when it's good, OO when it's good, procedural when it's good, state machines when it's good, etc. 14:47:16 Since the language is so flexible, you can use any paradigm you want in lisp. 14:47:30 That's pretty crazy. 14:48:08 centipedefarmer [~nothingHa@173-29-195-221.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 14:48:28 Okay, well thanks for the help! See ya around. 14:48:40 See you! 14:48:51 -!- XPherior [XPherior@206.125.52.254] has left #lisp 14:52:47 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 14:53:20 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-218-49.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:58:54 -!- cbp [~cesarbol9@189.247.7.73] has quit [] 14:58:58 workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 14:59:54 -!- tsanhwa [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:02:06 Yuzuchan [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:03:56 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@93-35-251-44.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:06:15 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-120-202.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:06:28 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:10:14 ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has joined #lisp 15:10:57 hello, I want to (:use :cl) but I don't want all the symbols from the cl package, I want to have for example my own read-byte function. Is it possible to make exceptions? 15:11:51 -!- HET2 [~diman@2.24.251.153] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:12:24 -!- basho- [~basho-@dslb-188-108-010-223.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:14:21 <_6502_> ignotus: yes... you can add a :shadow clause 15:14:39 _6502_: checking, thanks! 15:14:41 ignotus: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_shadow.htm 15:15:20 -!- Yuzuchan [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: I Quit] 15:15:27 glidesurfer [~glidesurf@2002:5796:7358:0:230:5ff:fe37:7a8d] has joined #lisp 15:15:30 naryl _6502_ it works, thanks! 15:18:35 Is the loop macro implementation dependent? 15:19:11 *_6502_* 's brain explodes trying to understand this question 15:19:37 glidesurfer: no. the loop macro is defined in the spec. 15:19:53 glidesurfer: extensions may be implementation specific. 15:19:55 glidesurfer: No unless there is some depends on the implementation in it's hyperspec definition. 15:20:43 Ok, I'll stop answering questions. Always ten seconds late. 15:21:43 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@12.130.124.9] has quit [Quit: statonjr] 15:21:55 -!- derekv [~derekv@c-68-62-78-203.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 15:22:08 what about this one? http://paste.lisp.org/display/122486 15:22:17 derekv [~derekv@c-68-62-78-203.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:24 returns 0 in SBCL, NIL in clisp 15:22:46 should return NIL I guess 15:23:00 because when is never true 15:23:20 <_6502_> python raises and exception if you take the min() of an empty sequence... 15:23:40 <_6502_> and=an 15:24:16 pjb__ [~pjb@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 15:24:20 wislin [~user@220.166.6.109] has joined #lisp 15:24:23 _6502_: that's why the "when" clause exists 15:25:32 <_6502_> glidesurfer: on sbcl (loop for x in nil minimize x) returns 0 15:25:55 _6502_: yes, but that's stupid 15:26:04 glidesurfer: stupid? 15:26:52 oh, I misread 15:27:30 -!- wislin [~user@220.166.6.109] has quit [Client Quit] 15:27:37 <_6502_> there are a few places in which CL choices are indeed IMO illogical... for example (<) is not T 15:28:10 On SBCL (loop for x in NIL when x minimize x) returns 0. Does that make sense? 15:29:03 CLISP return NIL which looks logical to me 15:29:08 *returns 15:29:29 <_6502_> CLHS doesn't say much about that 15:31:10 <_6502_> sure it's strange that (> (loop for x in (append A B) minimize x) (loop for x in A minimize x)) could be true 15:35:39 When is this true? 15:35:55 wislin [~user@220.166.6.109] has joined #lisp 15:36:06 <_6502_> when A is NIL and B is '(-1) ? 15:36:56 <_6502_> hmmm 15:36:58 that should be an error 15:37:16 I guess that doesn't work in CLISP 15:38:02 <_6502_> sorry A NIL and B '(1) 15:38:40 This is still an error 15:38:43 <_6502_> yes... NIL is better as maximum of an empty sequence IMO 15:38:53 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:39:05 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 15:39:14 _6502_: http://paste.lisp.org/display/122486#1 15:39:40 sykopomp [~user@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has joined #lisp 15:39:45 <_6502_> in SBCL this is true: (let (A (B '(1))) (> (loop for x in (append A B) minimize x) (loop for x in A minimize x))) 15:40:23 foocraft_ [~ewanas@78.101.222.35] has joined #lisp 15:40:34 To me it looks like a bug but if CLHS doesn't say much about it... 15:41:08 <_6502_> describing completely LOOP would probably double CLHS size ;-D 15:41:56 _6502_: not doing so leads to non-portable code 15:42:28 -!- foocraft [~ewanas@78.101.125.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:43:15 HET2 [~diman@2.24.251.153] has joined #lisp 15:44:30 <_6502_> like i said I think that an error would be better as result of taking the maximum of an empty sequence 15:44:52 -!- sykopomp [~user@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:45:15 <_6502_> on the other side i think that (=) (<) (/=) and the like should return T 15:45:52 Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.228.40.23] has joined #lisp 15:46:05 <_6502_> I agree however that (-) and (/) should be errors instead (because the first element is handled differently from all the others) 15:46:10 kruhft [~burton@S0106002401f331bd.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 15:46:40 <_6502_> element=argument 15:46:54 sykopomp [~user@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:53 _6502_: this is where I encountered the problem http://paste.lisp.org/display/122486#2 15:49:10 But I think that should be fine (it is in CLISP, it's not in SBCL) 15:49:37 -!- sykopomp [~user@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:49:37 sykopomp [~user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 15:52:07 glidesurfer: well in theres nothing to minimize, your code is not conforming. 15:52:15 -!- chp [~chp@2001:da8:a000:155:5eff:35ff:fe0c:c3ef] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:52:36 <_6502_> i don't like that code 15:52:36 clhs clearly says that the result is undefined. 15:52:59 pjb: Thank's, I wanted to know that. 15:53:03 *thanks 15:53:35 Guest44088 [~user@91.190.137.240] has joined #lisp 15:54:00 _6502_: you are not alone :P 15:54:24 <_6502_> pjb: where it's said? i didn't find it 15:54:43 Evanescence [~chris@122.237.37.33] has joined #lisp 15:56:13 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.191.71] has joined #lisp 15:56:38 <_6502_> oh... ok found it 15:57:00 <_6502_> " If the maximize or minimize clause is never executed, the accumulated value is unspecified." 15:57:35 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-157-5.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:22 _6502_: link? 15:58:34 <_6502_> http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/06_ac.htm 15:58:49 thx 16:01:23 -!- prip [~foo@host233-130-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 16:02:17 -!- longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:03:10 pnq [~nick@ACA37004.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 16:03:51 splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 16:03:55 morning 16:04:57 <_6502_> 6pm here :) 16:08:06 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 16:10:50 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.152.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:12:12 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.152.66] has joined #lisp 16:13:20 prip [~foo@host92-220-dynamic.45-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:19:08 zmv [~daniel@c9533906.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 16:19:22 -!- centipedefarmer [~nothingHa@173-29-195-221.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:20:44 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.191.71] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:21:25 *_6502_* wonders why there is no WHILE loop in CL 16:21:52 _6502_: ... there is 16:21:58 just maybe not called the same 16:22:04 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.191.71] has joined #lisp 16:22:11 loop while ? 16:22:29 _6502_: (loop while x do y) 16:23:44 (while x y) 16:23:45 ? 16:23:55 Xach: QL:UPDATE-DIST on win32 fails trying to open the quicklisp dir if *DEFAULT-PATHNAME-DEFAULTS* is on a different drive than the dir 16:24:23 so for example if it's stored in the user profile dir, ,cd d:/ in SLIME makes it fail 16:24:41 zmv: (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum) (use-package :com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility)(use-package :com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility) (let ((x 10)) (while (plusp (decf x)) (print x))) 16:26:04 hmm 16:26:15 looks interesting. 16:26:23 *zmv* opens SBCL 16:26:49 And it gives you also: (let ((x 10)) (until (minusp (decf x)) (print x))) 16:29:42 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:32:41 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.152.66] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:33:10 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.152.66] has joined #lisp 16:35:10 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.191.71] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:35:33 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.191.71] has joined #lisp 16:36:44 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.191.71] has quit [Client Quit] 16:37:08 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.191.71] has joined #lisp 16:39:24 <_6502_> supposing i want to split a string on spaces, what should be the result of (split ""), (split " "), (split " abc"), (split " abc ") ? 16:39:45 Depends on the parameter :remove-empty-subseq-p 16:39:56 Have you seen split-sequence? 16:40:03 <_6502_> no 16:40:12 _6502_: (ql:quickload :split-sequence) 16:43:40 (mapcar (lambda (s) (mapcar (lambda (r) (split-sequence #\space s :remove-empty-subseqs r)) '(t nil))) '( "" " " " abc" " abc ")) --> ((NIL ("")) (NIL ("" "" "")) (("abc") ("" "abc")) (("abc") ("" "abc" ""))) 16:44:36 sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has joined #lisp 16:45:04 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.152.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:45:59 In a way, life will become boring on #lisp and cll... I predict a future where we'll only have to refer the newbies to the libraries, instead of having to explain them why they don't need so and so or how they can trivially implement it in CL... 16:46:00 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:00 <_6502_> all the time will be explaining how to get the libraries installed 16:47:11 Not even, with quicklisp it's trivial. 16:47:18 -!- dmiles [dmiles@c-24-21-133-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:48:07 <_6502_> (ql:quicklisp :split-sequence) spits an error that's 15 lines tall 16:48:10 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.191.71] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:48:31 maybe because it's (ql:quickload 'split-sequence) 16:48:41 Doesn't it ask for strings? 16:49:11 msmith1 [~msmit297@adsl-184-36-176-157.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:21 _6502_: http://paste.lisp.org/display/122487 16:49:31 Odin-: strings or symbols 16:49:48 <_6502_> p_l_backup: sorry ... (ql:quickload :split-sequence) spits an error that's 15 lines tall 16:49:57 In which case, shouldn't keywords work? 16:50:27 Sure, the point is the function is named quickload, not quicklisp. 16:50:43 It's (quickLISP:quickLOAD :system) 16:50:47 Ah. 16:51:28 hello everyone. I'm trying to compile some code in emacs and I get C-c C-c not defined. any thoughts? 16:51:35 using lisp in a box 16:52:19 slime-mode might not be active where you're typing C-c C-c. 16:52:27 Is it a lisp buffer? 16:52:29 <_6502_> more than 15, actually 16:52:43 _6502_: it might be useful, to you, to read this error message... 16:53:13 strout [~strout@ip-64-255-129-222.ideaone.net] has joined #lisp 16:53:15 pjb: the buffer contains an opened file. how would I determine if slime-mode is active? 16:53:59 msmith1: when slime-mode is active, the mode list contains the current *package* in brackets with the name of the CL implementation. 16:54:05 apropos split-sequence... is there any easy way to split a sequence using multiple delimiters? 16:54:17 (Lisp [COMMON-LISP-USER clisp] Paredit) --> slime ; (Lisp Paredit) --> no slime. 16:55:07 <_6502_> pjb: i know what's wrong... what do you mean? the problem is that there is no package QL in my lisp 16:55:14 msmith1: also, you can type M-: slime-mode RET and if it shows nil in the minibuffer, then no slime mode, and if it shows t, slime mode. 16:55:31 _6502_: then perhaps you should install it. 16:55:36 http://quicklisp.org/ 16:56:26 msmith1: If you're in a lisp buffer, slime should have been activated automatically. In any case, you can toggle it with M-x slime-more RET ; notice, it's not M-x slime RET. 16:57:08 <_6502_> pjb: i already got there, and i had even to remove ubuntu clisp to be able to use it 16:58:51 pjb: I did it and got slime mode enabled. when I try to compile in the repl buffer I get an "Interrupt from Emacs" msg 16:59:05 -!- Landr [~user@178-116-224-148.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:59:41 msmith1: Usually, it-s C-g C-g to interrupt... 17:02:34 pjb: hmmm so what could be the issue? 17:03:28 dmiles_afk [dmiles@c-24-21-133-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:32 -!- kruhft [~burton@S0106002401f331bd.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:03:38 -!- strout [~strout@ip-64-255-129-222.ideaone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:04:40 msmith1: I don't know, I'm not so strong on slime... 17:08:37 changxue [~user@220.166.6.109] has joined #lisp 17:08:58 hi 17:09:37 milanj [~milanj_@178-223-141-220.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 17:12:01 ? 17:12:16 -!- changxue [~user@220.166.6.109] has quit [Client Quit] 17:16:17 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-17-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:47 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.152.66] has joined #lisp 17:18:39 killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 17:20:28 centipedefarmer [~nothingHa@173-29-195-221.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 17:20:55 armence [~armence@unaffiliated/armence] has joined #lisp 17:21:59 -!- glidesurfer [~glidesurf@2002:5796:7358:0:230:5ff:fe37:7a8d] has quit [Quit: Bye.] 17:23:20 -!- centipedefarmer [~nothingHa@173-29-195-221.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Client Quit] 17:23:38 strout [~strout@ip-64-255-129-222.ideaone.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:24 why did changxua ask that? 17:25:43 <_6502_>  17:28:13 actually, what does "?" even mean? I can only understand the ideogram for one () and google traslate says: "You are a man it?" 17:33:01 -!- dmiles_afk [dmiles@c-24-21-133-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:33:07 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:37:58 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-65-102.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 17:46:14 hi 17:46:43 Dose anyone use lispworks for personel on linux? 17:47:14 I can not find this /usr/lib/lispworks 17:47:51 I would use it for various tests, but unfortunately, I've got a x86_64 linux, and last time I tried, the gratis lispworks didn't work on this system. 17:48:11 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:51:31 -!- genieliu [~genieliu@59.78.62.120] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:51:49 -!- ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has left #lisp 17:54:57 georgek [~user@184-77-70-234.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 17:55:00 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-169.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:55:31 hi, I'm looking around for cl search engines, I've found Montezuma, any others? 17:56:26 -!- sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:57:57 dmiles_afk [dmiles@c-24-21-133-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:38 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 18:01:57 _foocraft [~ewanas@78.100.182.138] has joined #lisp 18:05:11 jmbr [~jmbr@115.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:05:14 -!- foocraft_ [~ewanas@78.101.222.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:07:20 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.152.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:13:40 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.18.20.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:17:57 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-17-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:20:17 -!- wislin [~user@220.166.6.109] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:22:04 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:23:41 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.167.210.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:23:47 -!- tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has quit [Ping timeout: 612 seconds] 18:31:22 tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has joined #lisp 18:33:27 Landr [~user@78-21-51-210.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 18:35:21 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:35:29 Joreji_ [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:36:05 when should I be using with-object(s) when using CommonQt? 18:36:14 -!- strout [~strout@ip-64-255-129-222.ideaone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:36:31 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-218-49.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:37:47 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-208-183.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 18:39:57 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 18:45:16 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-247-229.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:25 -!- tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:45:51 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-213.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:50:06 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:50:17 tippenein [~chatzilla@c-24-245-21-197.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:09 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:52:41 varjag [~eugene@162.163.9.46.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 18:53:26 -!- clog [~nef@bespin.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:54:12 centipedefarmer [~nothingHa@173-29-195-221.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 19:01:29 splittist2 [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 19:03:15 -!- splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:05:25 tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has joined #lisp 19:07:21 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:07:31 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:08:04 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:09:23 Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:09:58 Joreji_ [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:12:55 -!- setmeaway [stemearay@183.106.96.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:13:24 ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has joined #lisp 19:14:23 hi, if I try to open a file with []'s in the filename, with-open-file thinks the []'s are special characters (wild pathname), is there a way to turn off this functionality, or to quote all these special characters in a filename? 19:16:11 ignotus: you can quote the opening [, or use make-pathname. 19:16:29 pkhuong: checking 19:16:56 And don't forget to backslashify the backslash: "\\[foo]" 19:17:25 pkhuong: ah I see, quoting the opening is the way then... Are there other special chars I should be aware of? 19:19:12 no idea. 19:20:15 pkhuong: all right, thanks 19:21:38 -!- georgek [~user@184-77-70-234.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:21:57 georgek [~user@184-77-70-234.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:36 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:22:41 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:29:53 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:30:56 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:33:06 -!- dmiles_afk [dmiles@c-24-21-133-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:34:23 dmiles_afk [dmiles@c-24-21-133-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:39 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-65-102.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 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has joined #lisp 21:14:26 Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:14:32 -!- sykopomp [~user@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:14:32 sykopomp [~user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 21:17:40 merodach [~merodach@e177232201.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:18:12 -!- merodach [~merodach@e177232201.adsl.alicedsl.de] has left #lisp 21:22:05 -!- aerique [~euqirea@aerique.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:23:45 Joreji_ [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:24:34 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-184.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:26:09 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754480.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:26:22 is it legal to call CHANGE-CLASS in INITIALIZE-INSTANCE :AROUND? 21:26:36 legal and defined 21:27:20 varjag [~eugene@162.163.9.46.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:33:08 cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:12 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:37:32 Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:39:49 -!- antoni`` is now known as antoni 21:44:04 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:48:02 setmeaway [setmeaway3@183.106.96.30] has joined #lisp 21:48:12 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-169.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 21:50:34 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 21:50:59 Good morning everyone! 21:52:30 I know most of you don't use the Subversion services from cl-net, but those who do: the commit mails have been fixed and extended with Trac integration. 21:53:12 Mail generation stopped sometime in May (middle?).. 21:53:33 you can easily regenerate the missed mails. Contact me outside the channel for instructions. 21:57:02 dayvan [~dayvan@201-1-26-206.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 21:58:36 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-155-16.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:00:58 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-151-172.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:01:35 workthrick: Hmm, I thought I fixed that bug. Are you using the latest client? 22:02:35 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:04:05 -!- _foocraft [~ewanas@78.100.182.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:04:37 -!- centipedefarmer [~nothingHa@173-29-195-221.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:06:11 beach: morning? where? :P 22:06:24 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-155-16.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:06:54 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-150-156.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:07:27 zmv: Ho Chi Minh City. 22:07:42 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-78-236.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:52 cristo911 [~cristo911@ip68-227-203-246.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:23 who would like to help me with flowchart 22:09:34 cristo911: a lisp flowchart? 22:10:56 flowcharts like Do- While flowchart, For Loop, switch case, while loop, illustrated flowcharts 22:11:49 Xach: no, in fact I wasn't, though I thought I was 22:11:57 lemme recheck after the update 22:12:21 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-33-254.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 22:12:21 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-33-254.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 22:12:21 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 22:12:28 Xach: yup, no bug now 22:13:31 cristo911: what exactly does it mean "help you with flowchart"? Either you have a reasonably specific question (and that implies not asking "who'd like to help me"), or there's no way to answer 22:13:54 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:14:03 beach: oh, China 22:14:24 zmv: I think you need to brush up your Asian geography. 22:14:26 cristo911: this is the wrong place for that kind of help. 22:14:43 beach: oh, Vietnam, amirite? 22:14:55 zmv: this time, yes. 22:15:28 this is what i need help in 22:15:36 http://imgur.com/rICKK 22:15:42 beach: should have paid more attention to the "Ho Chi Minh" part :P 22:15:55 zmv: :) 22:17:30 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:17:58 Joreji_ [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:17:59 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:18:04 Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:18:20 strout [~strout@ip-64-255-129-222.ideaone.net] has joined #lisp 22:20:01 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:20:14 what would your reaction be if someone respectable would tell you that COMMON LISP was a descendent of Scheme? 22:20:32 madnificent: It kind of is. 22:20:35 cristo911: go somewhere else. 22:20:51 madnificent: Lexical scoping was taken from Scheme. 22:21:03 beach: I don't see in which sense it is 22:21:12 -!- cristo911 [~cristo911@ip68-227-203-246.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: http://irc2go.com/] 22:21:14 burn the heretic! 22:21:31 beach: wouldn't that somewhat be that both languages just evolved and took some features from each other? 22:22:05 madnificent: The creators of CL acknowledge that lexical scoping was taken from Scheme. No need to rewrite history. 22:22:31 cherry-picking features hardly denotes lineage. 22:22:50 T4r1k [58ecb2da@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.236.178.218] has joined #lisp 22:22:51 I agree with penryu here 22:22:58 Is there something inherently shameful about it? 22:23:37 Will we lose some vital parts of we acknowledge that CL was inspired by Scheme? 22:23:39 beach: no, not at all, I think it's just fine. However, throughout my look at the history of lisp I couldn't find anything saying that Common Lisp should descend from Scheme 22:23:54 beach: aspired and descended are two different topics imo 22:23:54 Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:23:57 -!- ec|detached is now known as elliottcable 22:24:03 s/aspired/inspired/ 22:24:28 madnificent: Again, you act as if "descend" would need to be avoided. Why? 22:24:33 -!- T4r1k [58ecb2da@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.236.178.218] has left #lisp 22:24:49 beach: no, I simply think it's not the correct term... 22:25:22 beach: I'm not particularly anti-scheme or anything. If I come across like that, it's merely because I'm talking about this subject. 22:25:31 jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.60.153] has joined #lisp 22:25:34 -!- varjag [~eugene@162.163.9.46.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:26:08 From the Common Lisp HyperSpec: "Some of these contributions made a large impact on the design of Common Lisp". 22:26:32 -!- tippenein [~chatzilla@c-24-245-21-197.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:27:09 beach: also, I find it good that features can be shared, there's nothing wrong with that. However, we also incorporate things like CLOS, which is object-orientation. Do we descend from another language because we have incorporated such a feature, just as they have? There must've been some influence from papers and/or implementations for such things. 22:28:09 madnificent: mostly sounds like you are playing semantics 22:28:17 pnq: I am 22:28:35 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:28:44 madnificent: "CLOS was developed specifically for this standardization effort" 22:28:46 Joreji_ [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:28:57 the semantics of "descendant" 22:29:40 beach: but it was -in turn- influenced by other designs (I think those were still lisp-related so then the following applies) which were probably influenced by what was possible in other languages. 22:30:06 madnificent: On the other hand, if a language takes 10% of its features from each of 10 other languages, does that somehow mean that it no longer should acknowledge its heritage? 22:30:14 enthymeme [~kraken@76.91.206.81] has joined #lisp 22:30:35 madnificent: i did not mean that as a good thing 22:30:46 beach: no, but in that case one should acknowledge all its heritage. Then one shouldn't look at the lisp/scheme/common lisp tree as separate anymore 22:30:51 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-188-118-166-171.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:31:12 pnq: I know, but I didn't see a point in not being honest :) 22:31:17 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:31:28 Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:32:02 madnificent: Sure. If your respectable friend suggest that, you might very well contest it. 22:34:28 beach: thanks. I was thinking that I had missed something extremely important. I think it is acceptable to presume they've been lumbed together for syntactic reasons now, though not solid. 22:34:35 beach: s/friend/teacher/ 22:34:54 beach: though he's nice, it wouldn't be correct 22:35:04 hah. I wish my profs even knew the difference between cl and scheme. 22:36:50 penryu: afaict they know that there is a difference, but rarely know the current state of the lanugages (I don't know if there is one that knows about it on our campus). Under most circumstances, that's normal, I think. 22:37:49 that sounds about right. 22:38:06 -!- dayvan [~dayvan@201-1-26-206.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:38:12 dayvan [~dayvan@201-1-26-206.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 22:38:15 ime, they know that scheme is "a Lisp language" and is therefore not worth their time to teach. 22:38:42 -!- neaer [~adskjf@118.39.114.41] has quit [] 22:38:45 how's that for pigeon-holing? 22:38:55 LoL 22:39:43 well, it's complicated for sure. For instance, they use Java almost exclusively on our campus. If they'd pick lisp, they'd have to find books on roughly everything, in lisp. For instance: database design, in lisp. Or operating systems, in lisp. 22:39:45 as a result, most of my prof-inspired irc rants are centered around C++. 22:39:54 those books exist for Java (apparently) 22:40:28 *penryu* seems to recall vaguely the concept of a lisp "machine" 22:41:26 there are also advances in functional data structures, though I confess they're mostly beyond me at the moment. 22:41:58 true, however state-of-the-art books on all of those topics are hard to find. Certainly harder than the same books for Java. In that sense I understand. I still find it extremely dumbifying, but I kind-of grasp the point they probably have. 22:42:07 I think my dept's issue is more to do with our corporate benefactors' entrenchment 22:42:37 -!- xan_ [~xan@190.Red-193-152-189.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:43:50 sure. it's a lot easier to find C texts than CL. but it's a lot easier to find PHP texts than C, and yet K&R and Stroustrup are widely taught. 22:44:20 either case. beach, penryu thanks for the information. 22:44:25 (though Deitel&Deitel seem to be growing in popularity) 22:44:40 *penryu* makes a note to suggest a functional language to the Deitel team. 22:45:25 *madnificent* thinks you should learn a multi-paradigm language and base most of your teachings on that. As that'll make sure they understand which style they'd best apply for specific problems. 22:45:58 -!- naiv [~quassel@ARennes-652-1-46-66.w86-214.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:46:23 sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has joined #lisp 22:47:04 I don't know. I think I've learned a lot from denying myself the crutch of certain features of multi-paradigm langs. 22:47:47 *|3b|* would lean towards learning a bunch of single paradigm languages, for a better idea of the range of each paradigm 22:47:54 ^^^ 22:48:18 *|3b|* has so far been too lazy to actually make any effort in that direction though :p 22:48:55 *penryu* is starting his 3rd paradigm (functional). slowly. 22:50:03 mostly I just advocate learning as much as possible in a wide range of topics. 22:50:27 madnificent: Sure. People have all kinds of reasons to present things in particular ways. Politicians come to mind. It is a bit disappointing when university teachers in scientific and technological subjects play games with undefined terminology in order to push their own agenda. They should know better. 22:51:20 well, if they played games with defined terminology, they might be proven wrong. :) 22:51:35 Indeed. 22:51:40 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-157-215.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:52:32 But in these fields, we are used to defining a local scope for the terminology used after that. Sort of a LET for terminology if you like. 22:53:02 LET is sooo 1970s. 22:53:31 penryu: and still applicable 22:53:34 This is also why it is so boring to see people in #lisp argue whether this or that language is "functional" or not, while refusing to define "functional". 22:53:37 absolutely 22:54:42 sure. you can implement iterative algorithms in a functional language. and you can (usually) implement functional algorithms in procedural languages. 22:55:41 i take it ht-ajax is incompatible with current hunchentoot? 22:56:46 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:57:06 *beach* goes to write another documentation string. 22:57:19 On terminology games: "In a way, all of us has an El Guapo to face. For some, shyness might be their El Guapo. For others, a lack of education might be their El Guapo. For us, El Guapo is a big, dangerous man who wants to kill us." 22:58:19 antoni` [~user@146.pool85-53-27.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 22:58:20 Landr: just a guess, could it be that it's incompatible with your parenscript version? If it's available in quicklisp you should be able to get it running. 22:58:45 Modius: Nice! From where? 22:58:56 beach: That line is from the movie "Three Amigos" 22:59:00 God I'm old. 22:59:08 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:59:10 Modius: I recognized it. 22:59:19 Modius: I think I just found it on Google. 23:00:27 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6C62qa2Jeg - 27 seconds in 23:00:55 -!- antoni [~user@146.pool85-53-27.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:01:20 A way to resolve terminology games is everyone back off the original word and pick a more descriptive one, then substitute it back into their sentences. 23:01:25 Landr: it isn't compatible. 23:01:41 Landr: ht-simple-ajax is though. 23:02:02 Modius: Or to pick a totally nonsensical one. That's a very powerful tool as well. 23:02:33 Is there any way to undefine a class, out of curiosity? An analogue to makunbound and fmakunbound, I mean. 23:02:38 Instead of functional: Strongly enforces *, strongly encourages *, enables *, facilitates *, where * can be statelessness, first-class-functions, expressions, or something else. 23:02:49 Bike: I think I've seen (setf (find-class 'foo) nil) 23:03:02 Xach: but ht-simple only returns xml :< 23:03:10 CL is a much more GUAPO language than SCHEME. 23:03:13 which is sufficient, but... just feels kindof unfinished 23:03:41 neaer [~adskjf@118.39.114.41] has joined #lisp 23:03:52 Hm, well, thanks. 23:04:22 penryu: Surely, in terms of GUAPOsity, scheme is vastly superior to cl 23:04:32 "Functional" is analogous in a way to what "OOP" meant to many 15-20 years ago, where "OOP" meant "More powerful than C" 23:04:36 Landr: you might have to write code :( 23:04:53 antoni`` [~user@20.pool85-53-11.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 23:04:56 pnq: But Scheme is not *purely* GUAPO. 23:04:58 Modius: yeah, it's the new fad. 23:05:48 Xach: well, i don't mind that... the problem is that I have no idea how to write professional code :/ 23:06:14 and like legwarmers, eventually the fad will subside and legwarmers will return to being worn only for their practical use. 23:06:17 Landr: the only requirement of professional code is that after you write it someone gives you money (or maybe before) 23:06:23 ...now I want to find some language wars and replace random terms with words like GUAPO 23:06:48 yes well, I'd like it to be on a level that other people might find it useful and extensive enough 23:07:11 -!- antoni` [~user@146.pool85-53-27.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:07:21 To many, "Functional" = "Stuff I don't do in my typical Java program" 23:10:01 Landr: write it, it's other people's choice to use it or not. 23:10:32 "Metaclasses are so functional" 23:18:23 -!- armence [~armence@unaffiliated/armence] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:22:57 fchurca [~fchurca@190.51.70.81] has joined #lisp 23:24:23 is there a fast way in SBCL to see if the slots of a structure are each EQ to the values stored in another instance of a structure? 23:24:32 of the same type 23:24:50 of course, equalp walks the slots, but then also calls equalp recursively on the contents 23:25:13 (noob alert) i don't know if it's the correct channel to ping, but i'm getting some troubles trying to install climacs. can i ask here? 23:25:26 fchurca: You can. 23:26:41 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:27:08 Thanks. Story goes like this: I download the Flexichain and Climacs repos and load flexichain.asd and climacs.asd in that order. Up to there, everything's dandy. 23:28:02 basically, I seek a comparison operator of the same depth as copy-structure 23:28:16 beach: After that, I have to use asdf:operate to compile and load the climacs source files, but I get a stack overflow 23:28:47 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-208-183.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:28:50 beach: I realized just now; maybe i have to use asdf:operate on flexichain first? 23:29:04 fchurca: You should probably use quicklisp to install all that rather than trying to figure out the dependencies yourself. 23:29:10 timack [~tim@hlfx62-2a-227.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 23:29:40 beach: Where may I get it? 23:30:32 fchurca: quicklisp.org 23:31:03 fchurca: It really makes life much easier. 23:31:24 beach: Thanks a lot :) 23:31:36 fchurca: Thank Xach for making quicklisp happen. 23:32:20 fchurca: Out of curiosity: what are you planning to do with Climacs? 23:33:37 beach: I'm in desperate need for an IDE; I have to do a short paper on Common Lisp for a university subject, and need to code to understand stuff 23:34:08 beach: I'll possibly use it afterwards for personal fooling around after this semester; I'm liking lisp :) 23:34:49 beach: I have tried Slime but it isn't exactly my cup of tea/coffee/(insert favourite beverage) 23:34:54 fchurca: For production use right now, Climacs is probably not good enough, and I recommend Emacs+SLIME instead. But if you want to fool around with it later, I think it is a great choice. 23:35:05 Oh, I see. 23:35:14 -!- HET2 [~diman@2.24.251.153] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:35:59 beach: I'm not using it for anything critical. As long as it doesn't die on me in the middle of the oral lesson, I'm game 23:36:29 fchurca: It usually doesn't. And if it does, you usually have an adequate restart to invoke. 23:36:41 [this being Lisp and all] 23:37:26 fchurca: I suspect you're going to experience more pain using climacs than you would just coming to terms with slime. 23:37:39 climacs isn't ready for prime time. 23:38:08 but hell, if you wanted to help get it there, that'd be pretty sweet. :) 23:38:40 Fade: slime has already died on me a couple times, I want to give Climacs a chance 23:38:41 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:39:04 now I'm officially surprised. 23:39:08 which lisp are you using? 23:39:29 with slime, SBCL 23:39:46 and CLisp elsewhere 23:39:47 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 23:39:59 well, whatever works for you. :) 23:40:01 (the installation attempt above was under CLisp) 23:40:09 *Fade* heads off to watch the hockey game. 23:40:17 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.60.153] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:41:29 -!- cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:43:13 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:43:47 -!- scode [~scode@hyperion.scode.org] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:43:51 scode [~scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 23:44:42 -!- sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:45:44 Fade: trifle early? 23:45:59 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:58:58 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]