00:02:05 reb`` [~user@nat/google/x-rggxmfceyrwppicp] has joined #lisp 00:02:32 -!- reb` [~user@nat/google/x-rybwohvaxgyhutnt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:03:00 pjb: yeah, I've done 68k asm, I just didn't expect it to be a target platform for sbcl :) 00:07:47 arunkn [~arun@59.92.32.197] has joined #lisp 00:12:13 splittist2 [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 00:12:32 how does one resolve a arg list length mismatch on a redefined method 00:13:04 recompile everything that calls it? 00:13:30 -!- splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:13:30 i can't recompile method though 00:13:58 a bit more context here 00:14:17 you've got a defgeneric with, say, 3 parameters, and now you're compiling to the same image with it having 4? 00:14:43 yep pretty much, expect the defgeneric was implied 00:14:58 Guthur: Undefine the generic function. 00:15:11 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 00:15:46 beach, how does one do that? 00:16:02 fmakunbound 00:16:02 or call defgeneric with the new layout, that seems to work (with just a style warning) 00:16:20 but yeah, beach's way is cleaner 00:17:08 SBCL gives more than a style warning, hehe 00:17:12 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.251.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:17:15 'SBCL says no' 00:18:22 Guthur: What does it say? 00:18:46 The lambda-list (RT-4X8 FILENAME) is incompatible with existing methods of #. 00:18:58 Guthur: I didn't test too deeply, ymmv 00:19:18 listen to beach 00:19:25 Guthur: Did you undefine the generic function? If so, you have methods that don't have the same number of arguments. 00:19:48 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:19:52 solved, in a round about way 00:20:30 I redefined as a func, then redefined as method again 00:21:03 Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.251.169] has joined #lisp 00:21:11 is there a reason SBCL wants to be so picking about redefining a method with a new arg list 00:21:19 picky* 00:21:27 defmethod is adding a peer to a set of methods 00:21:38 msponge [~msponge@149-169-123-41.nat.asu.edu] has joined #lisp 00:21:40 you had incompatible peers 00:21:41 Guthur: How come you didn't like my method? 00:22:02 (i.e., my way of doing it) 00:22:05 beach, I did, but I could figure out how to put it into practice 00:22:12 couldn't* 00:22:28 oh sorry I missed your reply 00:22:34 apologies 00:23:31 cheers though 00:23:44 HET2 [~diman@cpc12-cdif12-2-0-cust276.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 00:26:50 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:28:51 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:31:11 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.1.251] has joined #lisp 00:43:04 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 00:47:53 chp [~chp@2001:da8:a000:155:5eff:35ff:fe0c:c3ef] has joined #lisp 00:49:58 -!- Harag [~phil@dsl-242-247-123.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Quit: Eish] 00:50:00 superflit [~superflit@71-33-206-60.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:51:01 Vowyer [~sbenitezb@71-208-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 00:51:03 -!- superflit_ [~superflit@67-41-203-111.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:51:58 -!- Vowyer [~sbenitezb@71-208-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has left #lisp 00:59:57 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 01:01:11 zmv [~daniel@c9533906.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 01:03:12 Hello Lispers! 01:03:24 hello mon_key 01:03:29 Hi beach! 01:03:50 -!- chp [~chp@2001:da8:a000:155:5eff:35ff:fe0c:c3ef] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:05:16 I'm wondering if there is any portable way w/ SBCL to detect if a pathname is a symbolic link. I've already spent some time wrapping sb-impl::native-file-kind into the needed function.. Now i'm just curious if there might be some other way :) 01:09:30 One could maybe compare the output of probe-file/truename against the value of some argument but I don't get the impression that that is reliable in the face of the *nix file-is-directory/directory-is-file thing... 01:11:32 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-6-211.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 01:12:27 mon_key: you may not be aware that *nix tries to treat _all_ resources, including devices, as files. It makes many things much simpler. 01:13:16 jfleming: :) AFAICT It doesn't make resolving symlinks from CL very much simpler at all 01:19:12 mon_key: no, I gather that wasn't one of the design goals. But I don't see anything simpler than sb-impl::native-file-kind, which looks like it implements the equivalent functionality of *nix' `file`, except maybe an abstraction that hides it from sight. 01:19:51 Whatever you use is going to have to perform that kind of operation at some point; it's a question of how many layers of indirection you add on top of it. 01:20:12 jfleming: yes N-F-K is working quite fine for me. 01:22:02 I guess I'm mostly curious if there is some magic library out there that reliably abstracts the various implementations interface to filesystem symlinks 01:23:41 Ah, so you're after portability across CL implementations? 01:24:39 I guess. Or some hints as to whether symlinks were considered during the drafting of the spec. 01:25:42 foocraft [~ewanas@78.101.89.246] has joined #lisp 01:25:54 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-6-211.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:28:33 -!- z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:29:21 ok looks like most relevant portable is Nikodemus Sivola's osicat :) 01:29:59 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:30:16 This is relatively timely: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/26b306d4375bc374?dmode=source&output=gplain 01:31:50 I was just about to express surprise that c.l.l. was still useful for anything other than offers of cheap shoes, and then noticed the date. 01:32:48 :) 8 years isn't all that old! 01:33:43 Indeed; it's only in about the last year that the newsgroup has been overrun by spammers. 01:34:02 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 01:38:27 A portable way with sbcl??? 01:39:37 pjb: is that in the same tone as "tigers? In *Africa*?!!" ? 01:40:04 Something like that yes. 01:40:30 :) 01:41:16 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-116-169.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:44:49 jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 01:46:51 pjb: A portable way in any implementation. The phrasing of question was intended to pre-empt suggestions to "just use sb-posix/sb-ext/sb-unix FOO" 01:52:38 ramus_ [~ramus@adsl-108-76-79-127.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:53:09 -!- ramus [~ramus@adsl-99-23-146-61.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:53:34 -!- ramus_ [~ramus@adsl-108-76-79-127.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:53:49 ramus [~ramus@adsl-108-76-79-127.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:05 -!- arunkn [~arun@59.92.32.197] has left #lisp 01:55:02 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.223.170] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 01:59:38 -!- _pw_` [~user@125.34.46.107] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:59:57 _pw_` [~user@125.34.46.107] has joined #lisp 02:00:24 -!- _pw_` [~user@125.34.46.107] has quit [Client Quit] 02:00:50 _pw_ [~user@125.34.46.107] has joined #lisp 02:01:46 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A45E2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:08:11 museun [~what@c-98-252-140-73.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:23 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:13:48 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-185-93.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 02:15:10 mon_key: Yes, that's what portable means. 02:19:04 cbp [~cesarbol9@189.247.171.157] has joined #lisp 02:21:43 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:23:09 -!- msponge [~msponge@149-169-123-41.nat.asu.edu] has quit [Quit: msponge] 02:27:27 Vowyer [~sbenitezb@71-208-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 02:27:35 -!- Vowyer [~sbenitezb@71-208-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has left #lisp 02:38:13 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:42:45 pnq [~nick@ACA3603D.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 02:43:29 is there any explanation why all the *-IF-NOT functions _and_ the :TEST-NOT keyword are deprecated? 02:44:07 I could understand the reasoning behind "we have keywords now, so all the -IF-NOT variants are just an alias to using :TEST-NOT instead" 02:44:15 but that is also stated to be deprecated 02:45:33 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc12-cdif12-2-0-cust276.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:46:02 mathrick: I think we were supposed to use COMPLEMENT. 02:46:50 huh, I've never encountered COMPLEMENT before 02:46:55 good to know it exists 02:47:20 beach: and yes, the notes say that's the case, thanks 02:48:32 No problem. 02:49:43 :TEST-NOT parameters are bitches really. Better avoid them. 02:49:55 Otherwise, deprecation in CLHS has been deprecated. 02:50:42 gaidal [~gaidal@121.8.247.191] has joined #lisp 02:51:20 mathrick: I gather the idea was that (complement #'this-test) is more elegant than #'this-test-if-not, but pragmatism won out on the basis that the -if-not variants are so heavily used in practice. 02:51:21 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@121.8.247.191] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:51:50 -if-not are useful, if perhaps ill named. remove-if-not == keep. 02:51:51 gaidal [~gaidal@121.8.247.191] has joined #lisp 02:52:12 pjb: rather keep-if 02:52:13 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@121.8.247.191] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:52:47 keep-if would be nicely descriptive, but I think remove-if-not gives a better description of the operation being performed. 02:52:47 gaidal [~gaidal@121.8.247.191] has joined #lisp 02:53:28 (setf (symbol-function 'keep-if) (symbol-function 'remove-if-not)) 02:53:29 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@121.8.247.191] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:53:47 gaidal [~gaidal@121.8.247.191] has joined #lisp 02:54:02 ...and that's one of the nice things about having a programmable programming language :) 02:56:52 -!- lanthan [~ze@p54B7B3F4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:57:06 -!- zmv [~daniel@c9533906.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:58:26 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@121.8.247.191] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:58:36 nannto [~nanto@pee5b70.tokyff01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:58:53 gaidal [~gaidal@121.8.247.191] has joined #lisp 02:59:42 -!- jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.56] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:04:42 :TEST-NOT parameters are bitches really. Better avoid them. <-- why's that? 03:05:02 mathrick: It is nearly impossible to figure out what will happen in most cases. 03:05:12 *mathrick* 's ears perk up 03:05:17 mathrick: Especially when you combine with :key. 03:05:33 I must say I don't see the issue immediately 03:07:45 fusss [~chatzilla@lushevents.net] has joined #lisp 03:08:03 mathrick: take something like INTERSECTION. "Morally", the test is an equivalence. When you don't have that anymore, the name of the function no longer makes sense. Typically when you use :test-not, you no longer get an equivalence predicate. 03:09:10 beach: but how is that different from (complement #'equivalence)? 03:09:13 hi, I have just factored out buncha utilities from an application, but they all depend on one special variable. How do I (declare (special *var*)) for the whole file without doing it for each form? 03:09:22 mathrick: No difference whatsoever. 03:09:47 beach: so you're referring only to the difficulty in reading, not some kind of hidden pitfalls in what the code does? 03:09:56 mathrick: Yes. 03:10:07 fusss: DECLAIM 03:10:08 mathrick: And I think that's what pjb meant as well. 03:10:51 fusss: but disclaimer: I don't know if it'll actually work 03:11:14 declarations normally work on individual bindings, and these are *not* available outside of the binding forms, only inside them 03:11:45 so that'd mean the answer is "you can't, not without making *var* globally special" 03:11:51 you'll have to try it out 03:12:21 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 03:12:57 mathrick: I don't mind making it globally special 03:13:08 then just (defvar *var*) 03:13:15 lanthan [~ze@p54B7EEDF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:36 mathrick: I did, it's defvar'ed in the _client_ package, but the library package uses it. hmmm 03:14:02 fusss: then it belongs to the library API and the lib ought to define it 03:14:03 fusss: You are confused. 03:14:35 fwiw, it's *db-spec*, a connection specification for a database. Library is buncha Postmodern utils. Client code _has_ to specify the connection params, and library code needs to assume *db-spec* is special and bound at the time of its usage 03:14:39 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-98-113-194-183.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:15:13 fusss: then you just put the defvar in the library code and export it 03:15:24 since it's a part of the library, not the client 03:15:36 (in-package :utils) (defun foo () .. (let ((db *db-spec*)) .)) ... (in-package :app) (use-package :utils) (defvar *db-spec* ..) 03:15:55 fusss: yes, now move the defvar to :utils, and you're set 03:16:12 oh, you're right, but being confused .. 03:16:25 think of it, the *db-spec* is a part of the library _the client_ uses to drive it 03:16:40 it's no different from a function exported by the library the client uses to drive it 03:17:14 it's not a part of the client, it's a part of the library that's exposed as a control knob 03:18:06 fusss: is that clear now, or are you still confused? :) 03:19:20 fusss: sounds like something I've done, but I didn't like having that as a global var - especially because that means I could only have one defined at a time. So I defined a class with the necessary slots, and redefined the functions to either take that as an argument, or as methods specialised on that object. Then I just defvar an object of that class, and toss it to the relevant functions/methods. 03:19:43 Leaves the object definition in the library, but lets you handle the variable within the client code. 03:19:55 jfleming: yeah 03:20:30 this actually needs a bit more thinking through than I did .. 03:20:35 jfleming: a good way is to have the argument optional and default to *special0var* 03:20:41 *special-var* even 03:20:59 then you have the convenience of not thinking of it, and the flexibility of being able to 03:21:17 and usually you toss in a WITH-VAR wrapper macro in 03:21:17 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@121.8.247.191] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:21:55 gaidal [~gaidal@121.8.247.191] has joined #lisp 03:22:07 mathrick: true. Depends on your intentions, though; I personally prefer having the library be standalone, so choose to put up with having to pass the variable explicitly. 03:22:34 oh, but *var* is perfectly standalone 03:22:36 Then again, that also forces me to pay attention to what's actually happening, which further helps clarify my thinking about what I'm *actually* doing. 03:22:42 it's just a convenience for the most common use case 03:23:03 but forcing explicitness is a good point, and it depends on what you're really doing 03:23:12 _pw_` [~user@125.34.52.49] has joined #lisp 03:23:20 dmiles_afk [dmiles@c-24-21-133-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:23:21 -!- dmiles [dmiles@c-24-21-133-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:23:28 usually if you can't decide a good default, it means there isn't one and it should be explicit 03:23:34 mathrick: yes indeed; I can see the potential value in defining it within the library with sane-ish defaults (localhost:5432, plus whatever you think a good default db-name and username are) and then allow the client to redefine it afterward. 03:23:54 if there's an obvious "context" argument on which everything else hangs, then you probably should make a default special binding and let the client use that 03:23:58 there is nothing sane about default passwords 03:24:34 fusss: damn straight! Are you a sysadmin, by chance? :) 03:24:38 but I get what you're saying mathrick 03:24:48 jfleming: you can leave it unbound and force the client to define it too, but then just let it be an ambient context instead of an explicit argument you pass by hand 03:25:09 this way you'll get real errors instead of "authentication failed" 03:25:14 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-zoguuhekfdkususa] has joined #lisp 03:25:47 *beach* realizes that he now might have to add a compiler macro to catch :test (complement ) at compile time for certain functions. 03:25:48 fusss: I'm still using my default password at work :) 03:26:21 beach: yeah, I was thinking of that first when you mentioned avoiding :test-not 03:26:22 (apply #'utils:lart mathrick) 03:26:25 *jfleming* slaps mathrick upside the head with a fish 03:26:41 -!- _pw_ [~user@125.34.46.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:26:47 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has joined #lisp 03:27:12 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 03:27:46 well, it's not 1234password 03:27:55 at least it's randomly-generated 03:28:16 what is it? 03:28:24 mathrick: not *quite* so bad, then. 03:29:42 stassats`: "randomly-generated" :) 03:33:48 wislin [~user@118.122.165.4] has joined #lisp 03:35:08 -!- splittist2 [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:42:29 splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 03:50:06 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:50:35 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 03:50:44 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 03:55:12 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:55:18 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 03:55:27 -!- Quadrescence is now known as Guest62519 03:56:29 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-33-206-60.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: superflit] 03:58:38 Quadresce [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 04:01:13 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c711b3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 04:06:33 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:13:41 boutros76 [~boutros@59.167.168.54] has joined #lisp 04:16:40 -!- r11t [~himanshu@li109-137.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:17:22 evening 04:19:18 Hey slyrus 04:19:27 howdy beach, what's new? 04:19:50 slyrus: Getting back into SICL development after a "break". You? 04:20:23 -!- dmiles_afk [dmiles@c-24-21-133-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:20:39 not much, on the lisp front anyway :( 04:20:46 cat died :( 04:20:55 dmiles_afk [dmiles@c-24-21-133-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:21:00 slyrus: Sorry to hear that. 04:21:24 other than that, I've been keeping busy with real work 04:22:20 i did manage to hack the spectacle guts to show an interesting visualization of an entire human chromosome at 1 base/pixel 04:22:32 speaking of which, did you ever check out spectacle? 04:23:06 No, for the same reason I didn't work on SICL for a while. 04:23:12 Give me some time. 04:23:19 no problem 04:24:16 there's not all that much to check out, but it illustrates some things that I find important 04:24:24 OK. 04:24:56 Oh, housekeeper says it's lunch. BBL. 04:25:26 rough life :) 04:26:02 chp [~chp@2001:da8:a000:155:5eff:35ff:fe0c:c3ef] has joined #lisp 04:26:10 The_Fellow [~The_Fello@glida.mooo.com] has joined #lisp 04:27:47 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-149-38.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 04:28:48 slyrus: my sympathies. 04:33:36 thanks jfleming 04:43:08 fchurca [~fchurca@190.51.122.192] has joined #lisp 04:43:17 hello guys 04:43:47 i was wondering if there is a free graphic ide for common lisp 04:43:58 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:44:20 i have tried emacs and i don't find it comfortable 04:44:39 fchurca: there's Lispworks personal. 04:45:05 lispIDE 04:46:10 fchurca: you can use lispIDE ;http://www.daansystems.com/lispide/ 04:46:23 let's see 04:48:23 wislin: forgot to tell, i'm using linux. is there a linux version of lispide? 04:49:16 No. lispIDE only for windows. you have to use lispworks for linux. 04:50:10 lispwork is very great ide for CL, except it's expensive. 04:50:19 lispworks personal has a couple limitations respecting image saving 04:50:26 fchurca: I'm pretty happy with SLIME as an IDE 04:50:32 but no idea what graphical features you expect 04:50:45 (where "pretty happy" is "never been happier with an IDE in my life" (-:) 04:50:47 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 04:51:40 antifuchs: what works for one guy doesn't necessarily apply for another one :P 04:51:48 i'm glad you're happy with it tho 04:51:58 well, me and a bunch of other people here (-: 04:52:12 i know it's pretty standard 04:52:14 anyway, yeah. what are you looking for? 04:52:41 I mean, there's climacs which could be beaten into shape (but nobody uses / extends it nowadays) 04:52:43 at least until i can wrap my head around emacs, i was looking for a gedit plugin or something like that 04:52:54 Davsebamse [~davse@94.127.49.1] has joined #lisp 04:52:58 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:53:06 hm, there's slimv which is slime for VIM; I suppose it hooks into gvim as well 04:53:22 but that's hardly super-friendly either, I guess (: 04:53:33 -!- dmiles_afk [dmiles@c-24-21-133-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:54:17 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 04:54:40 dmiles_afk [dmiles@c-24-21-133-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:56:13 emacs + slime is very good for common lisp. 04:56:39 i'm kinda starting, and can't wrap my head around emacs yet 04:57:12 longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has joined #lisp 04:57:23 -!- Davsebamse [~davse@94.127.49.1] has quit [Client Quit] 04:57:53 i've tried it, and can see why others like it 04:58:15 Too much command to remember. 04:59:10 yeah. gedit gives me a lot of stuff except sending selections or buffers to a repl 04:59:39 is there a way for clisp or sbcl to listen to a file for input and responding to stdin at the same time? 05:01:54 vlion [~user@76.178.165.160] has joined #lisp 05:02:22 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-175-96.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:03:01 fchurca: I use VIlisp for that. 05:03:10 I also appear to be the resident heretic on this subject :) 05:03:47 fchurca: http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=221 05:04:09 i've come across it earlier, but it doesn't seem to be active 05:04:13 correct me if i'm wrong 05:11:26 It's decidedly inactive - abandoned, in fact - but it still works nicely. 05:12:43 -!- longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:14:50 longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has joined #lisp 05:20:19 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 05:20:51 -!- foocraft [~ewanas@78.101.89.246] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:26:17 did a quick hack - make an xterm running clisp listen to a tempfile sith tail -F, then echoed stuff to that tempfile 05:26:50 i know, it sure sounds awful 05:27:22 and it dies whenever it enters an error condition 05:29:20 well, i'll try to give myself another chance with slime tomorrow 05:29:32 thank you guys anyways :D 05:29:34 see you around 05:33:58 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 05:34:14 superjudge [~superjudg@195.22.80.141] has joined #lisp 05:35:52 fchurca: you've just described the basic principle by which VIlisp operates :) 05:37:28 i guess you're talking about the buffers, rather than dying on errors :P 05:38:09 fchurca: yes, I am :) 05:38:44 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-pvchztqffczzabpt] has joined #lisp 05:39:51 at least i was not in a completely wrong course. still, it doesn't seem to be easy to replace, so i'll take a look at both slime and vilisp 05:40:07 rather than doing it myself, at least for now 05:40:46 maybe later i'll try to write a lisp extension for gedit. but now i've seen i'm not ripe for that yet :P 05:41:21 I'm clearing a few things off my plate before trying to replicate slime's functionality for climacs, so I'll be only too happy to report back once I start making progress there. 05:45:37 jfleming, maybe i can help with that 05:46:20 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-174-096-202-029.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: statonjr] 05:46:20 Quadresce: any additional help will be much appreciated. 05:46:49 i'm up to my neck in college stuff, but maybe this (southern hemisphere) winter (july/august) i can take a look. i'll give it a drive for sure. 05:46:57 jfleming, because I want an editor that more closely resembles the good ol lisp machine 05:47:08 Once I actually get a start, I'll most likely manage it via github. I'll start with a functional spec and go from there. 05:48:07 Quadresce: sounds like we have a common interest in customising the UX - my motivation is something with SLIME's functionality and Vim's modal interface and keybindings. That and getting deeper into networking stuff. 05:48:37 Well I don't know about vim too much 05:48:55 That's OK; I've never used a lisp machine :) 05:49:01 ha 05:49:58 i don't know much about either. i win? 05:50:23 fchurca: you just had me cackling out loud, so yes, you win. 05:50:56 gor[e] [~svr@gw2.masterhost.ru] has joined #lisp 05:50:58 jfleming, the principle thing about the lisp machine is that it was just very smart and very smart 05:51:14 It was expedient at the time. 05:51:15 -!- dmiles_afk [dmiles@c-24-21-133-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:51:20 (* 2 "very smart") ? 05:51:27 These days it wouldn't be very smart. 05:51:33 vlion, no 05:51:50 dmiles_afk [dmiles@c-24-21-133-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:52:09 Zhivago, I'd say even today it's smart. It feels much more integrated and "how does this know what I want to do?" than most of today's stuff. 05:53:09 Quad: Unfortunately all of that shared memory comes at a cost. 05:53:12 how does it know what you don't want to do? 05:53:14 Quadresce: sounds like a good argument for a toolkit library that just happens to get assembled in various ways, like what I gather is the case with git. 05:53:19 However, I do agree with you to an extent; there is a good amount of new technology today that would make it pale in comparison. 05:53:41 Quad: So it scales poorly and fails catestrophically. 05:53:53 Quad: Not to mention stories of half hour GC delays. 05:54:17 Quad: I think that the lisp machine was actually a really bad design because it avoided processes. 05:54:28 these are implementation details 05:54:29 Quad: Which isn't to say that it wasn't an expedient hack at the time. 05:54:34 a simple example of a very bad, not modern-smart is how Symbolics' lispms were fundamentally incompatible with muliprocessor architecture... unless you revamped the whole thing into multiple virtual lispms 05:54:37 No. These are pretty fundamental. 05:54:55 How should an editor (with slime/swank integration) be multi-processed? 05:55:02 Avoiding processes means that everything is built to run in the same pool without boundaries. 05:55:27 It had huge security issues (if you were to stick in today's world) 05:55:29 It's the image architecture that has dominated lisp and smalltalk implemntations since. 05:55:33 splittist: that question is already giving me headaches. 05:55:34 afaik "task switching" on Genera was just a change of stack pointer 05:56:56 editors have a natural multi-threaded architecture, IMO 05:57:04 vlion: Why? 05:57:30 vlion: sadly, that's not true of Vim. It's decidedly single-threaded, which is why all efforts to bolt on SLIME have foundered. 05:57:34 tcr1 [~tcr@80-218-247-218.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 05:57:47 vlion: not really... as long as it's *just* and *editor* 05:57:56 emacs is single threaded as well 05:58:15 My process explorer claims my emacs is multithreaded 05:58:25 well, it lies 05:58:52 vlion: the GUI toolkit used might introduce some extra threads 05:58:56 Zhivago, I think you're right on the money with respect to implementation issues of the Lisp machine. 05:59:07 GNU Emacs is strictly single-threaded 05:59:11 (I'm curious how you know about the Lisp machine too...) 05:59:27 Quadresce: it's all out there 05:59:28 Quad: I used to think that they were a good idea, so I investigated them a lot. 05:59:42 Quad: By the same token, I used to think that transparent persistence and distribution were good ideas, too. 06:00:04 Zhivago, Distribution in what sense? 06:00:14 Across machines. 06:00:20 Including virtual machines, naturally. 06:00:35 Zhivago: I was going to disagree with the second... then noticed that I agree, because of how I thought about both of those 06:01:06 Zhivago: an editor could have a thread per buffer (or open window), another thread dedicated to maanging filesystem operations (e.g., saving backups). And that's just for plain text editing. If we added more features, those could be their own threads 06:01:23 Unfortunately lisp systems tend to be little symbolics machines hiding in posix processes. 06:01:24 vlion: oh god,please, no thread-per-buffer 06:01:42 Zhivago, :) 06:01:44 p_l|backup: I'm saying it's a natural fit, not... optimal. 06:01:53 qizwiz [~chatzilla@ppp-70-245-65-87.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:01:54 vlion: it's not 06:02:07 vlion: I'd rather single-threaded with async operations -- ala javascript and the dom -- which I think is actually one of the best editor infrastructures around. 06:02:54 *p_l|backup* would go for a mix of Async operations and MxN threading 06:03:12 I think that threads are an insanely bad idea, these days. 06:03:17 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440956.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:03:28 Why? 06:03:43 slime only uses asynchronous operations 06:03:44 Because they have the scaling problems of shared memory -- i.e., they don't. 06:03:59 (except where synchronous are preferred) 06:04:01 Zhivago: Depends how much is *concurrently shared* 06:04:09 If you stick with processes and messages between processes then these problems go away. 06:04:27 of course then it's semantics regarding whether it's a process or a thread 06:04:40 No. 06:04:43 I always found when hacking MPI that I kept wanting to put together a shared-memory persistence model 06:04:57 For the algorithms I was dinking with, message passing was grief. 06:04:57 A process is a virtual machine. It may provide a single or multiple threads of execution. 06:05:37 vlion: What algorithms were those? 06:05:43 One thing I found out in brutal way in using Chrome, is that expecting multiple processes to scale well in case where all of them might have lots of computation... was a bad idea 06:05:54 *jfleming* plans to bury his head in the sand on this, and stick to worrying about the protocol 06:06:01 Some sort of physics simulator I had to put together for a grad class. 06:06:09 What the client processes do with it is their problem :) 06:06:13 Chrome has the problem of not being able to put its processes elsewhere. 06:06:19 jfleming: Perfectly reasonable. 06:06:35 Zhivago: it has also a problem of being incapable of policing them 06:06:50 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA3603D.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:07:55 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:08:22 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442436.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 06:08:46 a quite easy disaster condition was to install few plugins, open few tabs to sites that used rather dynamic js, and see the machine burn from strain that didn't even faze FF 06:08:56 s/plugins/chrome extensions/ 06:09:03 (or chrome html/js applications) 06:09:19 That's interesting. Chrome's always ran better than Firefox for me. 06:09:19 -!- chp [~chp@2001:da8:a000:155:5eff:35ff:fe0c:c3ef] has left #lisp 06:10:11 Bike: I found quite a lot of the heavier extensions, stuff that I'd really prefer to have as an extension, to end up doing 100% cpu on all cores... idling 06:10:31 It's probably due to my lightweight browsing, then. 06:10:51 it simply has no way to control resource usage, expecting OS to deal with it... which fails horribly when all of those plugins churn all the time 06:11:05 well, i'll leave you guys for your big talk. this little undergrad is gonna (sleep 21600) 06:11:16 *vlion* agrees with Bike... I don't have many plugins 06:11:19 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 06:11:50 well, since then Chrome on my machine isn't getting any extensions either. Nor is it going to be primary browser anytime soon 06:12:09 I just don't see it handling 50~150 tabs with multiple extensions :> 06:12:37 Hmm. I have a bunch of extensions and I regularly have 100 tabs open. 06:12:45 They're probably well written extensions, though. 06:12:56 Huh. I usually roll with < 10 tabs 06:13:01 jfleming, i'll be around kinda next week, maybe after giving climacs a run 06:13:11 Zhivago: probably 06:13:17 I tend to garbage collect tabs periodically. 06:13:25 I have some of the same issues as p_l|backup. I have a much easier time handling 150 tabs or more in (say) Firefox than in Chrome. 06:13:59 see you guys! 06:14:04 cha 06:14:09 -!- fchurca [~fchurca@190.51.122.192] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:15:45 But, I think Chrome probably scales better still, even if it takes more memory for tabs. 06:16:05 -!- splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:16:17 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has joined #lisp 06:16:59 I always found Firefox to be bloated and to suck memory over time. Chrome has just been far more performant for me. 06:17:48 So back to the LispM discussion regarding how it managed memory... :) 06:18:19 vlion: at low tab count it is like that... probably because it discards all the memory when you close the tab, as well as uses "die horribly" method of handling errors 06:18:39 Did LispM have a more sophisticated garbage collector than Lisp 1.5? The manual's description made me sort of wince. 06:19:04 It'd be hard to believe that it had... 06:19:06 Bike: depends which one 06:19:17 not. 06:19:35 I mean, LISP 1.5 was the first garbage collector ever written, AFAIK. 06:19:44 Damn. 06:20:03 Symbolics afaik had a stop and copy collector with some specialized hw related to paging 06:20:34 yes 06:20:35 no idea if there was a generational collector in it 06:20:36 I heard that some people preferred to reboot rather than GC. 06:20:46 Awkward... 06:20:53 Zhivago: that was the case on CADR at least 06:20:53 Zhivago, haha 06:21:00 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 06:21:01 Quadresce: weekly. 06:21:02 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:21:05 They rebooted weekly. 06:21:12 Which is better than what you have to do with MS-Windows. 06:21:27 These days I'm leaning more toward making GC an application level issue. 06:21:37 Which you can do with a leasing model. 06:21:53 Zhivago: what about pluggable memory management? 06:21:57 Let's use Mach and make it a service. 06:22:12 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:7a2b:cbff:fed0:c11c] has joined #lisp 06:22:12 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:7a2b:cbff:fed0:c11c] has quit [Changing host] 06:22:12 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 06:22:15 pjb: ... you are evil. Evil, I say! 06:22:15 Leasing model: allocate a 'blob' of memory to the program and let it do internal gc? 06:22:52 vlion: You say "I want this object to live at least until time T" 06:23:10 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 06:23:24 No, we don't. 06:23:28 vlion: When there are no leases remaining for an object it can be reclaimed -- so applications need to periodically trace their data, extending leases. 06:24:15 And if you forget to extend a lease, you get a dangling pointer. Bravo you reinvented C. 06:24:15 Huh. Sort of like a reverse reference counter? 06:24:26 Duh! 06:24:33 Zhivago, Can you be more specific about the meaning of "time T"? 06:27:28 topeak [~topeak@123.114.127.187] has joined #lisp 06:28:34 Quad: Well, say I want object X to exist until at least next Tuesday. 06:29:38 And next Tuesday, you don't remember you had this object that's about to be collected, but you still need it and suddently your application crashes and you don't know why, just like in C. 06:30:03 Zhivago, so T is a static duration? 06:30:09 -!- longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:30:17 Quad: Well, it's an arbitrary point in time. 06:30:29 If you set T= you get malloc and if you change T=0, you get free. 06:30:30 splittist [~splittist@50-214.3-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:30:35 Maybe something else wants object X to exist until at least next July. 06:30:46 Having intermediary values only complicates matter for no benefit. 06:30:55 That's simply not true. 06:31:16 In a distributed system tracing collectors have numerous problems. 06:31:28 But you can remove them by having the application do periodic traces. 06:31:35 -!- vlion is now known as vlion|away 06:31:47 You then set the lease time to some multiple of the trace period -- say 1.5. 06:31:48 And when you move a server at the wrong time, all you objects get collected. 06:31:55 No. 06:31:58 okay, time to go to sleep and read the backtrace in the morning. Night all 06:32:12 Why would moving a server cause your objects to get collected? They're leased for a period of time. 06:32:36 If you move the server just when it would have extended the lifetime of your objects. 06:32:45 No. 06:32:54 It won't have affected the lifetime of your objects at all. 06:32:58 Moreover, they get collected at the worse time, when you've invested a lot of computation, and you need an extension to finish. 06:33:06 You are gibbering. 06:34:05 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:34:05 pjb: Do you have a reading comprehension disorder? 06:34:18 good morning 06:34:27 -!- tippenein [~chatzilla@c-24-245-21-197.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:34:40 Zhivago, "free the objects next Tuesday." What if you move the server Monday at 2359? 06:35:27 longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has joined #lisp 06:35:38 Quad: No. It is "maintain the objects until at least next Tuesday". 06:35:52 Sure. 06:35:59 Quad: So, what's the problem? 06:36:03 -!- benny [~benny@i577A7507.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:36:23 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-116-169.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 06:37:12 Zhivago, So upon moving the server at 2359 or even say 2000, depending on how long a move takes, one would be unable to definitely access these objects upon finishing the move, right? 06:39:42 What about simple resource-bounding, by allocating a fixed or upper-bounded chunk of memory to a thread/process? 06:39:56 Or did I just put my ignorance on display for all to see? 06:39:57 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@vpnsh0056.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 06:45:28 -!- boutros76 [~boutros@59.167.168.54] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:47:25 z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 06:47:44 jfleming, http://i.imgur.com/yJCYJ.jpg 06:48:23 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-037-136.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:48:53 Quadresce: yes, I'm fond of that one :) 06:48:56 -!- aoh [~aki@85.23.168.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:49:21 Quad: No. 06:49:46 Quad: 'At least' means that you can expect to access those objects until that point, and possibly longer. 06:50:12 benny [~benny@i577A1A4F.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 06:50:19 Quad: Besides which you'd surely have redundant storage, in which case you'd be able to keep on using them. 06:50:50 Ah, 'unable to definitely' -- yes -- but that's what redundancy is for. 06:51:13 Isn't that the same with traditional GC models? That you can expect an object to be live until a certain point, at which time you're not guaranteed it'll be live anymore? 06:53:10 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-175-96.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:53:12 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@121.8.247.191] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:53:15 The difference is that with GC, the point is determined automatically, when the system can prove you have no way to access the object anymore. 06:53:48 gaidal [~gaidal@121.8.247.191] has joined #lisp 06:53:55 Quad: There is no certain point -- it requires proof of inaccessibility -- which is difficult in distributed systems, particularly with volatile components. 06:54:20 Quad: Consider getting on an aeroplane and dropping off the network for a while. 06:54:37 Quad: Should the objects you reference be collected? 06:54:53 Quad: Or should they become immortal if your plane crashes, destroying your hardware? 06:55:00 naiv [~quassel@ARennes-652-1-8-236.w2-10.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:55:45 ramus_ [~ramus@adsl-99-136-197-6.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:55:56 Possibly the first one, probably not the second. 06:56:39 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.251.169] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:56:40 I think that both of those scenarios are unacceptable. 06:56:53 The point is that resource management at this scale requires purpose and intelligence. If you cannot determine proof of inaccessibility, then you do like the unix file system: you keep the data until instructed to remove it. 06:57:00 On the other hand, you could have your system reserve the objects it uses for a couple of days. 06:57:09 -!- thijso [~thijs@83.98.233.115] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:57:27 Then if you die horribly they'll be deleted. And if you don't, they'll be available. 06:58:05 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@lushevents.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 4.0.1/20110413222027]] 06:58:12 You can then apply garbage collection locally to unleased objects. 06:58:16 -!- ramus [~ramus@adsl-108-76-79-127.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:58:36 aoh [~aki@85.23.168.115] has joined #lisp 06:59:13 Of course, this leads to edge-cases such as surviving the plane-crash but getting kidnapped by Bolivian extremists, and eventually escaping by rickrolling their security cameras. You survive, possibly not intact, only to find your data gone. 06:59:40 basho__ [~basho__@dslb-092-076-070-166.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:59:51 Yeah, I think that the uncertainty about my data is what would really be killing me ;-) 07:00:15 Only your short term data. 07:00:33 Presumably you'd have longer leases on the data required to generate it. 07:00:39 Exactly! And this is what a good persistence mechanism is for. The stuff you _really_ care about is preserved lovingly. 07:01:03 That's what _redundancy_ is for. 07:01:32 If a server decides to store it on persistent storage or not should be largely irrelevant. 07:01:33 *splittist* thinks it all seems a bit pins and angels 07:02:08 Something tells me this leasing stuff should be a layer atop the collector, which has one and only one job, pick up dead data. 07:02:20 Quad: Sure. 07:02:22 Depends on your perspective. I see redundancy as providing resilience against system failure, not against an inconvenient application of a correctly-operating system mechanism. 07:02:34 But it is something to think about. 07:03:02 Quad: A lease just tells the collector that an object is part of the live set until at least a certain time. 07:03:43 Zhivago: I wasn't talking about automatic persistence of long-lived objects, but of an explicit mechanism for saying, "I care about this chunk of data. Please store it until I declare it garbage." 07:04:03 jfleming: Then you'd better own the storage. 07:04:18 Or at least trust it. 07:04:37 No. It has to trust you to delete it, otherwise it will clog up the system forever. 07:05:06 That, too. Trust is required in both directions. 07:05:10 Katip [~Katip@193.255.9.49] has joined #lisp 07:05:29 Speaking of which, I have a storage partition to enlarge. Bloody developers... 07:08:39 -!- longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:08:59 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-109-16.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:10:10 -!- Quadresce [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:14:07 -!- Katip [~Katip@193.255.9.49] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:16:20 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 07:17:07 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-37-159.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:18:26 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-32-168.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:18:32 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 07:18:56 ehu [~ehuels@109.34.115.139] has joined #lisp 07:19:15 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 07:20:45 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@80-218-247-218.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:27:27 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:27:37 Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.24.226] has joined #lisp 07:29:30 -!- lanthan [~ze@p54B7EEDF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 07:29:58 stis [~stis@host-90-235-14-103.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 07:30:32 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-037-136.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:31:03 -!- topeak [~topeak@123.114.127.187] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:31:43 Also, about clogging system, hard drive double in capacity each year. So unless your data grows faster (that's already exponentially, you have some margin...), clogging will never happen. 07:32:55 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:33:21 I've got data migrated for 20 years now, from floppies to HDs across the years. Keeping a full archive of all your old crap doesn't put a dent in the new storage 07:33:41 as long as you're not archiving giant media files 07:34:54 and even then, I've got a ton of ISOs ripped from old installation CDs that still don't take much of a few TB stack 07:35:14 2 TB cost 80 euro. 07:35:33 chrisdone [~chris@unaffiliated/chrisdone] has joined #lisp 07:35:44 According to our system, the following domains will expire in 3 days on 03 June 2011 07:35:44 trylisp.org 07:35:44 trylisp.com 07:35:50 F'anyone wants these, yeah, three days. 07:37:11 morning 07:37:18 hi 07:39:30 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.34.115.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:42:11 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-150-156.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:43:19 -!- chrisdone [~chris@unaffiliated/chrisdone] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:44:25 lifeng [~lifeng@155.69.43.14] has joined #lisp 07:44:39 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 07:46:42 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:47:00 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:47:20 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 07:47:35 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@vpnsh0056.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:48:42 pjb: the price of _buying_ a hard drive is low. The cost of _managing_ an increasing amount of disk space that you care about is another deal altogether. 07:49:24 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:52:33 longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has joined #lisp 07:52:48 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.167.6] has joined #lisp 07:52:52 hi 07:53:14 can someone remind me of a CL implementation in assembly ? 07:53:15 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:53:24 (with src code ) 07:54:12 aerique [310225@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:54:22 morphism: probably something for Z80. 07:55:01 Z80 ? 07:55:18 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:55:18 is that related to motorola ? 07:55:39 no, it is related to Zilog 07:56:42 morphism: most modern CL implementations contain at least a bit of assembly, but otherwise they are written mostly in lisp, with some C code for bootstrapping 07:56:47 chrnybo [~user@148.122.202.244] has joined #lisp 07:56:47 -!- chrnybo is now known as chr` 08:01:18 there are some good articles about a 6502 lisp floating around somewhere, do some googling 08:01:31 I think it was writted for one of the Apple 8-bits 08:02:08 if you're looking for an asm implementation, I doubt you'll find anything newer than back when asm was the only option for fast code 08:02:47 ... or for code that's small enough to fit into RAM 08:03:23 yep 08:03:58 and specific to the original question, I doubt there's ever been an actual CL implemented solely in asm + lisp 08:05:14 (well, at least since the ANSI standard existed) 08:05:47 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 08:05:47 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 08:05:47 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 08:06:56 morphism: you could look at BBN-LISP, assuming your target is like a PDP-1... 08:07:24 splittist: didn't BBN-LISP target a much later PDP? 08:07:41 I am looking for asm impl of CL because of the fun in asm, not really for fast code 08:07:57 Not the 1966 report I'm thinking of (at least, I don't think so) 08:08:18 morphism: probably you should just look for lisp in asm, not common lisp 08:08:29 morphism: take something like SBCL, do lots of disassemblies, read the docs about its internals. You'll know enough to get going with an asm core 08:08:56 -!- Katibe [~Katibe@212.174.109.55] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:08:58 morphism: what exactly is it you want to see in the assembly code? 08:09:00 morphism: or look at SICL, see if you can derive a kernel, and implement that in asm (or LAP) 08:09:16 I think the fun is in figuring out how to map lisp constructs & calling conventions to asm, not actually writing the asm itself 08:09:40 :)) Nice, Phoodus, what made you guess my arm intend ? 08:09:44 hi 08:10:15 e-user [~e-user@nat/nokia/x-ofeloijrxkmsqekg] has joined #lisp 08:10:22 (your arm?) 08:10:24 jdz, I just want to see how the impl it 08:10:27 ARM 08:10:28 sorry 08:10:48 I didn't mention ARM... 08:10:59 Katibe [~Katibe@212.174.109.55] has joined #lisp 08:11:11 -!- cibs [~cibs@Sylpheed.Math.NCTU.edu.tw] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:11:24 morphism: implement what? 08:11:46 jdz, how they implement Lisp or CL in asm =.=! 08:11:47 morphism: write a little code bit that uses some interesting feature, and disassemble it 08:12:14 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757c6f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:12:24 I know it would be easy to grab a compiler and some CL src then generate asm code 08:12:25 (disassemble (lambda () (values 1 2)), to see how it does multiple value returns, etc 08:12:33 but 08:12:39 code generated by compiler 08:13:00 is a bit different from hand written asm 08:13:16 morphism: lisp compilers are usually written in lisp 08:13:28 BlankVerse [~pankajm@121.243.181.99] has joined #lisp 08:13:33 and a little in something else ? 08:13:41 yes 08:13:46 no, the compiler is typically pure lisp 08:14:04 the codegen backend of course needs some low-level support 08:14:08 that something else I guess must be written mostly in C and a small bit in asm 08:14:10 :P 08:14:22 morphism: that's what i said. 08:14:23 morphism: to summarise - no has implemented Common Lisp in assembly; in the deep, distant, past on architectures quite different to today's processors, and/or for LISP's quite different from CL, people have done such things. 08:15:10 how CCL implemented in ARM port ? 08:15:11 splittist: wouldn't LispM CL be implemented in assembly... sort of? 08:16:02 p_l|backup: I've assumed it was basically implemented in Lisp Machine Lisp/ZetaLisp 08:16:22 jdz, yeah 08:16:49 the statement "implemented in" gets a bit fuzzy with the various ways things can be bootstrapped 08:17:06 -!- Katibe [~Katibe@212.174.109.55] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:17:22 morphism: you can check the source of ccl, but most port of the arm backend is compiler code generation (i guess) 08:17:25 splittist: the core was probably common enough that it was more of a difference in the higher level stuff (some functions shadowed, CLOS instead of flavors, that kind of stuff) 08:17:45 Phoodus, my english need to be fixed =.+! 08:17:46 misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has joined #lisp 08:18:08 jdz, did you test it on iPhone ? 08:18:20 morphism: i don't have an iPhone 08:18:51 and will not in foreseeable future 08:18:57 :D 08:19:01 that's interesting 08:19:11 very 08:19:12 jdz, you hate it ? 08:19:29 why would anybody want to hate a phone? 08:19:30 what a pity, I am going to have one :O 08:19:43 *Phoodus* 's phone still has physical buttons, and he likes it that way 08:20:22 yeah, physical buttons are nice through :P 08:20:23 I find there's too many physical buttons on my iPad... 08:20:48 pjb: iPad can deal without them, lack of physical answer/endcall buttons on a phone is criminal 08:21:07 and by physical I mean real buttons, not capacitive bullshit 08:21:09 p_l|backup: I might agree. 08:21:44 Oh, I like this channel =))) 08:21:46 However, the the OS is responsive enough, it might do without physical buttons. 08:22:41 http://gjunkie.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/iphone-dock.jpg 08:23:01 hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:23:36 pjb: I dare you to try using capacitive buttons in big gloves 08:24:10 funny... 08:24:11 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@121.8.247.191] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:24:34 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:24:51 how about this keep falling robot ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GdQmmbO2T4 08:25:02 gaidal [~gaidal@121.8.247.191] has joined #lisp 08:25:11 and before you start spouting bullshit about such a situation being stupid, I'll say one thing: annual temperatures: from -20°C to +30°C (assuming it doesn't go lower in winter  -35°C isn't that rare) 08:25:13 p_l|backup: nobody wears big gloves in California 08:26:26 jdz: frankly speaking, I don't give a damn about california. Could end up radioactive waste dump area and I probably wouldn't notice as long as it doesn't spill ;-) 08:26:26 -!- naiv [~quassel@ARennes-652-1-8-236.w2-10.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 08:26:29 p_l|backup: I live in Spain, iphones are dessigned in California. 08:26:59 p_l|backup: here's your solution: http://variationsonnormal.com/2011/04/28/finger-nose-stylus-for-touchscreens/ 08:27:03 yeah, if you can afford an iphone, you can move to a milder climate too 08:27:11 naiv [~quassel@ARennes-652-1-8-236.w2-10.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:27:12 p_l|backup: you'd notice it immediately. Google would stop. 08:27:21 stassats: exactly. 08:27:22 I don't think so. 08:27:35 ehu [~ehuels@109.32.173.191] has joined #lisp 08:27:43 pjb: Google wouldn't stop... Well, they'd have hiccups, but it would carry on 08:29:45 Phoodus: there's something wrong, terribly wrong, with that. 08:30:03 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 08:30:49 skynet is active 08:33:56 -!- lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:34:50 c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-dkkeqtdgencrbnpr] has joined #lisp 08:34:59 lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 08:35:57 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 08:36:26 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-zoguuhekfdkususa] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:38:35 -!- chr` [~user@148.122.202.244] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:39:20 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@121.8.247.191] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:39:55 gaidal [~gaidal@121.8.247.191] has joined #lisp 08:41:01 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 08:43:23 -!- rvncerr_ [~rvncerr@85.10.202.107] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:44:40 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.167.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:45:14 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-dkkeqtdgencrbnpr] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:53:23 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-rkqaltlniolfgpeq] has joined #lisp 08:55:10 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:55:25 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 08:58:00 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 08:59:20 -!- wislin [~user@118.122.165.4] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:00:22 oudeis [~oudeis@77.125.82.23] has joined #lisp 09:06:45 Yuzu- [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:08:45 npoektop [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 09:09:02 hi 09:09:15 Soulman [~knute@250.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 09:09:20 c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-vcdhxodsexzpjmcc] has joined #lisp 09:09:42 hi 09:10:59 add^_ [~add^_^@h35n8c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 09:12:00 :) 09:15:37 Guthur [c743cb8d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.141] has joined #lisp 09:17:22 rvncerr [~rvncerr@85.10.202.107] has joined #lisp 09:17:35 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 09:17:59 Katibe [~Katibe@212.174.109.55] has joined #lisp 09:22:34 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 09:22:48 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-vcdhxodsexzpjmcc] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:24:41 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:24:55 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:25:47 -!- Guthur [c743cb8d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.141] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:25:54 jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.28.104] has joined #lisp 09:29:42 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757c6f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:32:40 Hey guys, if anyone is interested in developing apps for biomedical research. Elsevier is running a competition with a $15,000 grand prize. http://appsforscience.com/ 09:32:42 snearch [~snearch@f053012080.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:34:13 If anyone is after test subjects, I can distribute software around my lab and have them provide feedback. 09:36:18 Harag [~phil@dsl-242-247-123.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:37:48 Guthur [c743cb8d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.141] has joined #lisp 09:37:51 Bacteria: step 3: download eclipse... you're aware of what channel you're in, right? 09:38:08 eclipse, the window manager? 09:38:12 I know. But if you read on, you are not required to use their api. 09:38:22 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:38:32 And you can use it without some stupid plugin for eclipse. 09:39:44 stassats: eclipse being the java ide thingo. 09:39:56 Bacteria: first there's the API, then there is "Elseviers SciVerse Application Marketplace" 09:40:12 mk2` [~user@159.92.65.64] has joined #lisp 09:40:33 Indeed, but again, you aren't required to use any of these. 09:40:54 Bacteria: oh, right, i read it wrong. 09:44:39 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 09:45:24 Hi, I use sb-alien to run code from a proprietary library. It contains a function Initialize("test.cfg") that would open a C-STRING filename. But something goes wrong there. Is there a way to stop a C debugger in the library code to see which file it tries to open? I tried 'strace' but that seems to corrupt my SBCL. 09:45:52 nice drafting: "the fifty (50) United States (including the District of Columbia)" 09:46:23 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:46:42 Also, does anyone know of a decent cffi binding package for gui's, or should I look at using cffi directly to interface with the C/C++ libs of something like wx. 09:48:19 Bacteria: I suggest you use CommonQt and blog extensively about your experience 09:49:40 jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.18.108] has joined #lisp 09:51:08 splittist: Heheh. What about something like wxcl? 09:53:13 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@121.243.181.99] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:53:57 this is what what i remember when i see the contests: http://freelanceswitch.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/FF158_LogoContest-1.jpg 09:54:33 Hahahahahah 09:56:32 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@vpnsh0056.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 10:01:43 jingtao` [~jingtaozf@li94-153.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 10:02:56 Yuuhi [benni@p5483B68B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:05:03 -!- jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.18.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:06:40 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-185-93.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:10:00 BlankVerse [~pankajm@121.243.181.99] has joined #lisp 10:10:35 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:15:06 -!- gor[e] [~svr@gw2.masterhost.ru] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:16:38 Yuzu-_ [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:16:38 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 10:19:11 -!- Yuzu- [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:19:22 stis_ [~stis@host-95-194-67-155.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 10:19:54 -!- stis [~stis@host-90-235-14-103.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:20:00 *stassats* just added a new feature for C-c x (slime-export-symbol-at-point), now it can automatically determine which style to use #: or : for prefixing symbols in (:export ..), instead of always using one style 10:20:05 jingtao`` [~jingtaozf@123.120.18.108] has joined #lisp 10:20:16 Bacteria: there's also cl-gtk2 10:20:23 (to enable it you'd need to set slime-export-symbol-representation-auto to T) 10:20:25 HET2 [~diman@cpc12-cdif12-2-0-cust276.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:20:53 gor[e] [~svr@gw2.masterhost.ru] has joined #lisp 10:21:08 mobydick [~textual@124-171-177-47.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:21:36 aerique: I saw that one as well. But I'm not sure how much I like gtk2 on cross platform stuff. 10:21:50 daniel [~daniel@p5B326F74.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:21:52 Since they don't have native widgets. 10:22:15 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:22:27 *stassats* thinks about adding an auto-saving option for C-c x, because i always forget to save package.lisp after using C-c x and don't commit it 10:23:13 stassats: sounds a good idea. (Same with changes to .asd files.) 10:23:55 with .asd files it's easy, because you see them when you edit it, but C-c x doesn't bring package.lisp when it edits it 10:24:35 -!- jingtao` [~jingtaozf@li94-153.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:24:40 -!- daniel__1 [~daniel@p5082A441.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:26:00 Is weblocks commonly used or recommended by anyone here? 10:27:21 markskilbeck [~user@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 10:27:55 *stassats* thinks about making slime-export-symbol-representation-auto T by default 10:28:18 although it would change the previous behaviour, i doubt anyone will miss it 10:28:37 any surprise will be pleasant 10:29:13 -!- markskilbeck [~user@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:30:34 and so i did, otherwise nobody, except me, would know about this cool feature 10:31:00 qizwiz__ [~chatzilla@ppp-70-245-65-87.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 10:31:14 mobydick: not that much, but it's not discouraged, ither 10:31:14 MORE DWIM 10:31:15 *eithr 10:31:18 markskilbeck [~user@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 10:31:24 damned broken #\e :/ 10:32:18 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@vpnsh0056.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:33:12 well, slime-asdf could use something similar to C-c x, which would add the current file into .asd 10:33:22 -!- qizwiz [~chatzilla@ppp-70-245-65-87.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 259 seconds] 10:33:25 -!- qizwiz__ is now known as qizwiz 10:34:16 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 10:34:55 stassats: yes - but considerably more magic needed to guess where (: 10:35:50 stis__ [~stis@host-90-235-235-227.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 10:36:31 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-rkqaltlniolfgpeq] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:36:47 -!- stis_ [~stis@host-95-194-67-155.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:37:15 stassats: is there a mode-line indicator of the (asdf) system the file belongs to? I seem to remember my characteristic error being forgetting to add the file to the system and wondering why reloading the system didn't change stuff... 10:37:44 no, there isn't 10:37:54 *splittist* begins to see part of the attraction of xcvb 10:38:06 but there are all bits and pieces to make i 10:38:07 t 10:39:34 there's already swank:asdf-determine-system 10:41:04 Dranik [~5b958649@static.247.19.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lisp 10:42:26 -!- markskilbeck [~user@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:43:17 *p_l|backup* ponders how hard would it be to replicate certain parts of OTP in Lisp 10:44:17 p_l|backup: OTP? 10:45:35 madnificent: Erlang's Open Telecom Platform. Probably half of what makes Erlang so fscking awesome 10:46:08 -!- stis__ [~stis@host-90-235-235-227.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:46:14 madnificent: includes, among others, a standardized, controlled way to do runtime code upgrade without stopping the application 10:46:49 as well as release engineering tools, monitoring, fault-tolerance etc. 10:49:26 ah, that thing 10:49:36 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 10:49:50 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 10:51:56 c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-ovegflwvriajpgxb] has joined #lisp 10:52:24 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.1.251] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:52:26 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:52:33 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-152-135-21.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 10:52:44 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-152-135-21.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 10:53:15 madnificent: at least the application module and related parts might be portable and useful, IMHO 10:53:41 chp [~chp@2001:da8:a000:155:5eff:35ff:fe0c:c3ef] has joined #lisp 10:54:31 p_l|backup: ah sorry, I didn't want to criticize your work/idea. I don't know enough about OTP to give an insightful comment, nor do I have an opinion. So I thought I'd better keep my mouth shut :) 10:54:47 madnificent: I didn't take it as criticism, so no harm :) 10:54:51 xan_ [~xan@222.Red-81-38-171.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:55:23 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@121.243.181.99] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:55:26 Night-Hacks [~amir@213.233.173.90] has joined #lisp 10:55:33 -!- Night-Hacks [~amir@213.233.173.90] has left #lisp 10:56:22 madnificent: I have to say, after going through "Software for a Concurrent World" in last few days, I'm amazed. It's one of the few (and first "framework/library") things in IT where the "enterprise" wasn't an insult. 10:57:05 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@155.69.43.14] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:02:54 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-pvchztqffczzabpt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:02:56 markskilbeck [~chris@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 11:03:26 Tasser [~freak@subtle/contributor/Tass] has joined #lisp 11:04:07 which branch of lisp should I look at first when learning lisp? Or is that question kind of "he said jehova!"? 11:04:20 this channel is about Common Lisp. 11:04:31 SBCL is popular on Linux systems. 11:06:21 And documents? 11:06:37 check out http://gigamonkeys.com/book 11:06:41 http://quicklisp.org and http://gigamonkeys.com/book 11:06:54 first for packages and SLIME, second for the book 11:07:09 archlinux packages should do? 11:07:33 -!- Dranik [~5b958649@static.247.19.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC] 11:07:49 Tasser: for sbcl, yes 11:08:14 install emacs and sbcl from Arch, then use the links provided to install rest 11:08:34 so emacs is kind of the biggest lisp project? 11:08:52 I kind of doubt it. 11:09:11 I suppose that depends of 'big' 11:09:39 Depends on how you define 'emacs' too. 11:09:44 :-) 11:10:19 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:11:07 For one thing, what you get when you run emacs -Q is written in C. 11:11:30 hm 11:12:37 GNU Emacs and Elisp code altogether form one of the biggest chunk of code in the general family of lisps 11:12:52 there's another huge, similar chunk of AutoLISP code 11:14:16 I'm sorry, but no. 11:14:45 If you take another lisp implementation, such as sbcl, and add on all the .lisp written that runs on it, you get a bigger chunk of code. 11:14:53 -!- Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.24.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:14:55 And sbcl is written in Lisp, not in C. 11:15:18 pjb: I meant the whole body of all elisp code 11:15:24 and the whole Genera ecosystem is also quite a bit bigger 11:15:33 It's obvious there's more in the whole body of all Common Lisp code. 11:15:52 pjb: my measure included all the local fixes, packages, etc. 11:16:06 and I didn't say it eclipsed CL 11:16:18 Tasser: if you're a VIM user, look at slimv. 11:16:18 just tried to bring in the scale :) 11:16:51 flip214, somewhat of switching to emacs 11:17:23 buddhabrot [c207f62b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.194.7.246.43] has joined #lisp 11:17:46 flip214, "slimv lisp" doesn't really find anything on google 11:17:59 Tasser: "slimv vim" 11:17:59 google://slimv 11:18:01 first hit. 11:18:06 I want to read good LISP sources. I checked github but a lot of projects are either too big or just hacked together 11:18:18 strange... 11:18:22 I want to see how the language is used. Any tips? 11:18:23 yeah. 11:18:55 eg. my /data/lisp directory contains 6179766 lines of lisp code. /usr/share/emacs only contains 2394846 lolc. 11:19:24 buddhabrot: common-lisp.net or cliki.net 11:19:30 buddhabrot: When we say "LISP" here, we usually mean a very old language that predates Common Lisp. These days we use "Lisp". I recommend you read the code of one of the good books like PCL or PAIP. 11:19:47 I've read PCL 11:20:00 buddhabrot, http://www.amazon.com/Land-Lisp-Learn-Program-Game/dp/1593272812 11:20:08 buddhabrot: Then try PAIP. Paradigms of AI programming by Peter Norvig. 11:20:12 buddhabrot: did you do all the exercises and read all the included code? 11:20:30 ilmari: I read the online version and followed most of the exercises 11:20:49 ilmari: I'm not too impressed by PCL but that may be subjective (and subject to change once I get to know the langauge better) 11:22:25 PAIP looks interesting, thanks 11:30:05 -!- markskilbeck [~chris@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Quit: Changing server] 11:33:07 pjb pasted "sclang/smalltalk thingy grammar" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122382 11:35:43 Oops, that was for #emacs... 11:35:48 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@gw249-1.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 11:36:35 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-174-096-202-029.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:36:43 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:38:23 pjb annotated #122382 "regular subset" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122382#1 11:38:54 -!- xan_ [~xan@222.Red-81-38-171.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:39:16 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 11:40:30 -!- a7p [a7p@9.83.238.89.in-addr.arpa.manitu.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:41:11 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 11:44:06 -!- Yuzu-_ is now known as Yuzu- 11:45:59 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@77.125.82.23] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:46:03 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-185-93.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 11:46:20 markskilbeck [~chris@host86-137-65-234.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:47:20 pjb annotated #122382 "regular expression corresponding to the regular grammar" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122382#2 11:47:22 qizwiz_ [~chatzilla@ppp-70-245-65-87.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 11:47:57 urandom__ [~user@p548A5A29.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:50:06 steevy [~steevy@95-89-223-125-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 11:50:09 -!- qizwiz [~chatzilla@ppp-70-245-65-87.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:50:13 -!- qizwiz_ is now known as qizwiz 11:50:26 -!- steevy [~steevy@95-89-223-125-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Client Quit] 11:51:31 a7p [a7p@9.83.238.89.in-addr.arpa.manitu.net] has joined #lisp 11:52:18 -!- cbp [~cesarbol9@189.247.171.157] has quit [] 11:54:18 -!- markskilbeck [~chris@host86-137-65-234.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:54:37 -!- Harag [~phil@dsl-242-247-123.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Quit: Eish] 11:54:56 Harag [~phil@dsl-242-247-123.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:56:06 I'm tryign to solve project Euler 109 in Lisp as an exercise 11:56:10 -!- Harag [~phil@dsl-242-247-123.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:57:21 Harag [~phil@dsl-242-247-123.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:57:43 it's hard. I don't know how to stops earching at a certain depth in the search tree (max. 3 moves) without using a global variable 11:57:45 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 12:00:28 nm 12:01:59 (defun tree-search (max-depth tree) (if (zerop max-depth) 'done (progn ... (tree-search (1- max-deapth) child) ...))) 12:02:16 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:02:55 atomx [~user@86.35.150.23] has joined #lisp 12:03:24 yes, extra param, did somethign like that 12:03:27 yours is cleaner though.. 12:03:49 I'm having a hard time so far with Lisp, but it'll click I guess 12:04:12 the loop/do macros are a bit confusing 12:05:04 -!- chp [~chp@2001:da8:a000:155:5eff:35ff:fe0c:c3ef] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:07:02 can you handle multiple sessions in hunchentoot? 12:07:18 chp [~chp@2001:da8:a000:155:5eff:35ff:fe0c:c3ef] has joined #lisp 12:07:20 yes. 12:07:25 There's a good manual. 12:07:44 When there's no doc,people complain there's no doc, and when there's doc, people don't read it... 12:08:04 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:09:21 pjb: that's what documentation is for ... the value is to be able to say "read the documentation" 12:09:37 not that this makes any difference, granted... 12:09:39 markskil1eck [~chris@host81-152-166-162.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:09:46 flip214: i'll paraphrase what pjb said: RTFM 12:10:05 yes, that's a well known acronym 12:10:16 my point was not about the acronym 12:10:32 -!- markskil1eck [~chris@host81-152-166-162.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Client Quit] 12:10:49 is there a way to visualize trees in SLIME/emacs or using standard lisp string formatting 12:11:20 is pretty printing with indentation enough for you? that's simple ... 12:11:32 yes 12:11:37 there's a library that uses graphviz to display the tree on X11, too, AFAIR 12:11:41 ok I'll write that as exercise if it's not there 12:11:56 I'm trying to follow a tutorial to set up a hunchentoot start script, and there's a line that goes ". /lib/lsb/init-functions" that I don't know what it does, right before hunchentoot_start(){...}. Can I just remove that? It doesn't explain it in the tutorial. 12:11:58 markskil1eck [~chris@host81-152-166-162.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:12:19 Probably more related to bash scripting than CL... 12:12:35 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 12:12:38 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:12:45 buddhabrot: take a look at format's ~A, and/or pprint 12:13:05 ok, I was kind of confused how to start writing it myself.. nodes with different datatypes 12:13:17 buddhabrot: infrastructure-wise almost everything is there. It needs someone to glue in some pieces 12:13:53 emacs can display images, there a stub on displaying images in the slime-repl, there's cl-dot which you can use to produce image files from your datastructure 12:14:11 -!- markskil1eck is now known as fu 12:14:26 yes, but I mean, representing an S-expression so not only READ can read it, but humans as well 12:14:27 buddhabrot: just make sure that there's a (print-object) method for each type, and you'll be fine 12:14:34 it seems to me like a standard problem tackled by SLIME 12:14:41 although perhaps the default printing is sufficient, too 12:14:49 buddhabrot: Try: (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.common-lisp.picture) (com.informatimago.common-lisp.picture.cons-to-ascii:draw-list '(a (b (c d) (e f)) (g (h i)))) 12:15:18 buddhabrot: look at pretty-printing; there's a nice documentation at http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/6503 12:15:20 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:15:48 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@gw249-1.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:15:52 -!- fu is now known as markskilbeck 12:15:58 pjb: System "com.informatimago.common-lisp.picture" not found 12:15:59 -!- markskilbeck [~chris@host81-152-166-162.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 12:15:59 markskilbeck [~chris@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 12:16:09 yeah 12:16:15 typo? 12:16:29 -!- markskilbeck [~chris@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:16:43 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-fiitcqlgnrdnuirq] has joined #lisp 12:17:05 just trying with updated quicklisp 12:17:14 ah, now it works 12:17:18 ah ok 12:17:24 buddhabrot: (ql:update-client), (ql:update-all-dists) 12:17:27 yes 12:17:28 thanks 12:17:44 pjb: great, ASCII art! 12:18:32 fantastic 12:19:15 great to learn with 12:19:47 pjb: http://weitz.de/hunchentoot/ ?? 12:20:09 pjb: looking for some good material to get into.. 12:20:21 What do you mean? 12:21:40 pjb: sorry thought you said there was a good manual on hunchentoot sessions? 12:22:16 Yes, that should be it. 12:22:20 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 12:22:40 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Exeunt IRC] 12:23:18 cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has joined #lisp 12:23:28 *pjb* ... still updating ql ... it was a long time. 12:24:56 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.163.200] has joined #lisp 12:24:56 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:26:39 might be a stupid question, but, I hate global variables and want to pass the current tree already being built to a tree builder, so it can prune it when inserting new branches. But, does Lisp copy this entire tree ont he stack if I pass it as a parameter? 12:26:52 how can I make it pass by reference? 12:27:15 You cannot pass anything by reference, all the arguments are passed by value in lisp (just like in C by the way). 12:27:18 or does one embed the whole thing into a let binding 12:27:32 buddhabrot: it just happens than most lisp values are references. 12:27:44 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-150-156.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:27:44 ok, I'm probably just confused 12:28:17 when I build a tree I want to eliminate "duplicate" branches (a branch is deemed duplicate if its path to the leaf contains the same nodes, ignoring the order) 12:28:19 Internally, CONS returns a reference to the new cons cell allocated on the heap. 12:28:34 yes, I've read that cons holds references 12:28:46 No. CONS returns a reference to the new cons cell. 12:28:47 and I can clearly see that from, eg the ascii art thingie 12:28:52 oh 12:28:54 I don't say anything about what a cons holds. 12:29:11 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.163.200] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:29:12 buddhabrot: do you know C++? 12:29:17 yes, sadly 12:29:23 and I know it has another type of value passing 12:29:28 fucking C++ with it's "value semantics". 12:29:34 There's nothing more idiotic. 12:30:08 I'll figure it out with some experiments 12:30:15 but how do you really feel? 12:30:32 lol 12:30:34 I'm also not sure how setf can be used on some expression on the 'left-hand' side 12:30:39 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757c6f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:30:45 but I'll figure that out as well I guess 12:30:50 buddha: CL passes object references by value -- like java. 12:30:55 -!- Tasser [~freak@subtle/contributor/Tass] has left #lisp 12:31:28 xxxyyy1 [~xyxu@222.68.163.200] has joined #lisp 12:31:38 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:31:39 buddha: C++ passes values. 12:31:48 well, nto always 12:31:48 There's nothing particularly idiotic about it. 12:31:58 C++ has a weird thing called references to, which are basically aliases 12:31:59 You can pass objects by reference if you like. 12:32:47 sawzall is interesting in that it lacks pointers and passes objects by value. 12:33:05 So if you pass a tree, you effectively get a copy of the whole tree. 12:33:24 -!- mobydick [~textual@124-171-177-47.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 12:33:31 copy-on-write? 12:33:44 tcr: Under the hood, yes. 12:34:39 copy-on-write-how-much-exactly? 12:34:59 jdz: Your question does not make sense. 12:34:59 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-5-226.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 12:34:59 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-5-226.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Changing host] 12:34:59 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 12:35:23 Zhivago: sure, never mind me, move along. 12:36:35 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 12:40:20 from wikipedia: Sawzall supports the compound data types lists, maps, and structs. However, there are no references or pointers. All assignments and function arguments create copies. This means that recursive data structures and cycles are impossible. 12:40:46 so there, my question makes sense, and is answered in this paragraph. 12:42:03 does it have first class closures? 12:42:47 Yes. 12:43:16 jdz: of course you make sense. Not like Zhivago. 12:44:03 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:44:05 http://paste.lisp.org/display/122383 12:44:55 I'm not sure how I would make this so it efficiently does not create identical paths in the tree (identical paths meaning in any order the same nodes are visited in a path from root to leaf) 12:45:20 *splittist* wonders who ended up owning Lucid's Engergize codebase 12:45:30 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@121.8.247.191] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:45:36 it's probably not very good either way since it's my first Lisp program in history 12:46:24 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:46:41 I also don't know how to early cutoff when it appears the leaf terminator will never be reached (currently this causes the leafs to become NIL, but calculatiosnm are wasted) 12:46:46 sellout- [~Adium@173-162-137-153-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 12:47:56 buddhabrot: tree, leaf. p, p, p is a path from root(tree) to leaf  p is a path from root(tree) to leaf  p = p. 12:48:14 buddhabrot: so what do you mean by "I'm not sure how I would make this so it efficiently does not create 12:48:14 identical paths in the tree (identical paths meaning in any order the same nodes are visited in a path from root to leaf)"? 12:48:39 -!- Yuzu- [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [] 12:48:58 4 -> 3 -> 1 is one path in the tree 12:49:30 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 12:49:32 4 -> 1 -> 3 is another path in the tree 12:49:39 That's not possible. 12:49:48 A tree cannot have both those paths. 12:49:54 the nodes are not ordered 12:50:04 it's not a binary tree or ordered tree, it's just a game tree 12:50:09 even if the nodes are not ordered, by definition there are no cycles in a tree. 12:50:13 buddha: Perhaps you have a fully connected graph, then. 12:50:20 4 -> 1 - meaning "1 is picked, then 3 is picked" 12:50:28 yes it's a directed graph 12:50:33 In trees, nothing is picked. 12:50:36 which trees are 12:50:45 There are nodes, and there are edges or arcs between nodes. That's all. 12:50:56 Trees are DAG, but not all DAG are trees. 12:51:04 ?? 12:51:07 buddhabrot: how about just restricting the order of the nodes? eg. make them ascending, so that 4 -> 3 is never picked, but 3 -> 4 is - then there are no duplicates 12:51:08 You mentionned trees, and in trees, the property I ennounced above stands. 12:51:13 buddah: Well, then this is a combinatorial problem, with some combinations excluded due to a lack of connection. 12:51:27 buddah: So enumerate the combinations and filter and off you go. 12:52:08 pjb: I think you're confusing the representation of the nodes with the nodes themselves, btw 12:52:22 4 -> 3 -> 1 and 4 -> 1 -> 3 can be two paths in the same tree 12:52:29 buddha; What is a tree? 12:52:33 the node "1" in the first path is not the same as the node "1" in the second 12:52:53 a tree is a DAG with only one arc coming in each node and only one coming out 12:52:57 Then those aren't paths in the tree. 12:52:57 eh 12:52:59 only one coming in 12:53:17 ok, fair enough, I was just represwenting the game 12:53:39 Anyhow, I suggest that you approach it as a combinatorial problem. 12:53:39 game(4) -> game(3,1) -> game(1,0) and game(4) -> game(1,3) -> game(3,0) 12:53:48 in this case, these two paths are "identical" 12:53:54 yes but I don't know how to do it in lisp 12:54:02 The same as in anything else -- count. 12:54:09 buddhabrot: how about just restricting the order of the nodes? eg. make them ascending, so that 4 -> 3 is never picked, but 3 -> 4 is - then there are no duplicates 12:54:19 flip214: there's a fallacy there 12:54:41 flip214: but that's because there is a special rule, the last node (leaf) does play a role in the uniqueness 12:54:56 Well, I don't know the rules ... so I cannot help you then 12:55:09 so 8 > 4 > 3 > 1 and 8 > 1 > 4 > 3 are differemt p[aths 12:55:12 yeah of course you can't know 12:55:28 Hmm, you keep on changing the description. 12:55:28 my brainw as just hurting trying to perform pruning inLisp and I thought I'd ask for help 12:55:30 pjb pasted "does this looks like a tree for you?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122385 12:55:34 sorry I should've specified the problem better 12:55:36 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-bpojnjstbsljtpsj] has joined #lisp 12:55:41 I suggest that you sit down and think for a bit. 12:56:01 Don't worry about pjb -- he was dropped on his head as a child. 12:56:07 pjb: yes, you're right 12:57:42 I'll program the program in C first 12:57:51 maybe then you guys can help me with the execution in Lisp 12:57:51 -!- qizwiz [~chatzilla@ppp-70-245-65-87.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:57:59 because I'm a bit confused on some things 12:58:02 well, if you 12:58:17 *well, if you'd just tell a bit more we might be able to help anyway 12:58:24 it's project Euler 109 12:59:38 qizwiz [~chatzilla@ppp-70-245-65-87.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 13:04:11 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:05:00 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@h35n8c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:07:55 Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:07:57 tsuru [~charlie@adsl-74-179-198-44.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 13:11:45 -!- longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:11:58 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 13:14:12 ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has joined #lisp 13:14:19 Good morning. 13:14:20 -!- blitz_ [~blitz@erwin.inf.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:16:12 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 13:18:10 -!- qizwiz [~chatzilla@ppp-70-245-65-87.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:18:26 easyE [e6bmLqVCQa@panix2.panix.com] has joined #lisp 13:21:55 gko [gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:22:08 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.178.231.233] has joined #lisp 13:22:33 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:22:41 Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:24:41 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 13:26:04 tmh [6397206e@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 13:26:29 Greetings lispers. 13:26:45 gadek [~konrad@wifi-wpa.agh.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 13:28:55 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Quit: the old ways are lost] 13:30:32 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 13:31:44 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 13:32:11 Good Job, lispers. 13:32:28 quicklisp is Bing's first link on "quicklist" request :D 13:33:23 silenius [~silenus@p4FC226CD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:55 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.178.231.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:36:33 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:36:37 Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:36:51 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-174-096-202-029.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: statonjr] 13:37:16 naryl: quicklisp is win :) 13:37:18 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-84-108-12-231.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:37:40 amb007 [~a_bakic@240.29.195.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 13:37:42 -!- gadek [~konrad@wifi-wpa.agh.edu.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:37:52 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.178.231.233] has joined #lisp 13:38:32 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 13:41:45 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.28.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:42:12 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:43:49 -!- jingtao`` [~jingtaozf@123.120.18.108] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:44:12 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:46:09 -!- jsnell [~jsnell@ash.snellman.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:46:36 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:54:23 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.178.231.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:54:44 -!- anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 13:56:24 -!- Guthur [c743cb8d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.141] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:56:29 -!- cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:56:58 What is this "Bing" of which you type? ;-P 13:57:04 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@60-234-133-173.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:58:35 longfin [~longfin@110.71.161.10] has joined #lisp 13:59:06 gz [~gz@209-6-49-85.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 14:00:14 -!- ramus_ [~ramus@adsl-99-136-197-6.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:00:36 jsnell [~jsnell@178.63.66.6] has joined #lisp 14:00:39 ramus [~ramus@adsl-108-68-171-208.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:00:41 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:00:43 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 14:00:43 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 14:00:43 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 14:02:00 Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:02:14 gz` [~gz@209-6-49-85.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 14:02:24 -!- gz` [~gz@209-6-49-85.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 14:03:13 It's Microsoft's new client for accessing Google results 14:03:36 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-49-85.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 14:03:48 -!- museun [~what@c-98-252-140-73.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:03:51 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 14:03:59 lol 14:08:02 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-bpojnjstbsljtpsj] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:08:57 hmm, sbcl is spewing output to my terminal but it's not on stdout or stderr and it's far too much for my scrollback. anyway else have experience with this? 14:10:16 tcr1 [~tcr@212-41-99-61.adsl.solnet.ch] has joined #lisp 14:10:50 tcr2 [~tcr@80-218-247-218.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 14:11:20 aerique: I would connect to the image with slime or find some logging library that will capture the output. 14:11:41 aerique: what did you do exactly ? 14:11:42 tmh: yeah, just did that. still curious how i would redirect it 14:12:03 fe[nl]ix: trying to install quicklisp :) 14:12:33 what makes yuu sure "it's not on stdout or stderr" ? 14:12:34 milanj [~milanj_@178-223-191-40.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 14:13:41 mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 14:13:41 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has quit [Changing host] 14:13:41 mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has joined #lisp 14:14:07 fe[nl]ix: well, i'm not entirely sure but i redirected output from both to a file and it didn't end up there, so perhaps i should have worded it differently 14:14:08 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:14:29 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@212-41-99-61.adsl.solnet.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:16:46 homie [~levent.gu@xdsl-84-44-178-222.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:17:52 Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #lisp 14:18:30 markskilbeck [~chris@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 14:19:53 -!- longfin [~longfin@110.71.161.10] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:22:21 hi 14:22:42 Yuzu- [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:22:50 pjb: how are you ? 14:23:49 -!- ramus [~ramus@adsl-108-68-171-208.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:25:19 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-fiitcqlgnrdnuirq] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:27:15 redline6561 [~redline65@cei-gla-cpk2.coxinc.com] has joined #lisp 14:27:30 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:27:50 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@195.22.80.141] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 14:28:39 Yuzu-_ [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:29:53 ramus [~ramus@adsl-99-136-193-221.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:08 -!- Yuzu- [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:30:22 yonghu [~dail68@122.96.125.97] has joined #lisp 14:30:39 arbscht [~arbscht@60-234-133-173.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 14:31:55 ramus_ [~ramus@adsl-108-68-163-125.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:32:51 -!- gko [gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [] 14:32:51 longfin [~longfin@211.246.69.200] has joined #lisp 14:33:04 -!- yonghu [~dail68@122.96.125.97] has left #lisp 14:33:05 -!- longfin [~longfin@211.246.69.200] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:33:23 -!- chp [~chp@2001:da8:a000:155:5eff:35ff:fe0c:c3ef] has left #lisp 14:33:46 -!- Yuzu-_ is now known as Yuzu_ 14:33:54 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:33:58 -!- aerique [310225@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 14:33:59 -!- Yuzu_ is now known as Yuzu- 14:34:05 hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 14:34:13 -!- ramus [~ramus@adsl-99-136-193-221.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:34:26 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:36:48 -!- tcr2 [~tcr@80-218-247-218.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:36:54 cheezus [~Adium@69-196-141-102.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 14:37:17 ramus [~ramus@adsl-108-68-169-163.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:37:19 Idonteven [~andreas@102.80-203-81.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 14:37:28 I have one thread that starts going wild in a long running sbcl process, Is there anyway to determine which of my applications threads it is (such as cpu time of that thread or something) I see sb-thread::thread-os-thread, but not a posix call that accepts my 64bit int 14:37:36 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 14:38:38 -!- homie [~levent.gu@xdsl-84-44-178-222.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:39:41 -!- ramus_ [~ramus@adsl-108-68-163-125.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:39:50 homie [~levent.gu@xdsl-84-44-178-222.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:40:32 -!- schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:40:46 Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:41:06 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:41:32 http://trac.common-lisp.net/bordeaux-threads/wiki/ApiDocumentation has a THREAD-NAME function 14:41:57 jiacobucci [~jiacobucc@gw-asdl.ae.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 14:42:40 vlion|away: as does sb-thread, the problem I am having is mapping that name to an operating system pid 14:43:13 Oooo okay 14:43:21 But, uh... 14:43:29 threads don't get a process id. 14:43:31 >.> 14:44:00 aerique [310225@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 14:44:02 -!- aerique [310225@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 14:44:09 at least in the models of threading I am familiar with, threads operate inside of the process 14:44:45 Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 14:45:22 in htop there is a number under the pid column for each thread running under my sbcl process and I can see that one of those is going crazy 14:47:10 perhaps its a thread id instead of a pid but it still has one :/ 14:47:58 muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:49:47 gigamonkey [~user@c-68-35-77-11.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:49:50 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 14:49:59 Xach: herep 14:51:44 bobbysmith007: Sorry, I don't have much other help besides suggesting Sophisticated Printfs. 14:52:27 (SPs for short) 14:53:54 replore [~replore@ntkngw256114.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:57:27 -!- npoektop [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:57:53 npoektop [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 14:59:17 jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.56] has joined #lisp 14:59:30 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:59:54 -!- vlion|away [~user@76.178.165.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:02:20 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-116-169.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:33 Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:04:47 -!- redline6561 [~redline65@cei-gla-cpk2.coxinc.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:04:48 -!- atomx [~user@86.35.150.23] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:08:56 sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 15:09:04 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-176-90.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:09:21 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-176-90.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:52 bobbysmith007: I believe the 64-bit thread ID you are seeing is a pthread ID. 15:11:29 The Linux kernel deals with thread IDs, which look just like process IDs. 15:12:02 There's a gettid() system call that returns the thread ID. 15:13:13 antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:13:53 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053012080.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 15:16:17 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:16:55 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-174-096-202-029.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:18:00 muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:19 markskil1eck [~chris@host86-152-39-131.range86-152.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 15:20:23 -!- markskilbeck [~chris@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:21:34 markskilbeck [~chris@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 15:21:45 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-176-90.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Offline] 15:21:45 -!- sellout- [~Adium@173-162-137-153-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:21:53 -!- xxxyyy1 [~xyxu@222.68.163.200] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:22:23 actually, kernel has only TIDs, and one of them is designated as leader for the process, iirc 15:23:22 reb``: thanks guys 15:23:24 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.163.200] has joined #lisp 15:23:33 longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has joined #lisp 15:23:48 p_l|backup: the one where tid == tgid (thread group id), IIRC 15:23:59 (see /proc/$pid/status) 15:24:01 bobbysmith007: you can try also some of the system monitoring tools 15:24:03 ilmari: ah right 15:24:25 PID=TID, and TGID is the "pid" of the overall process 15:24:31 Guthur [c743cb8d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.141] has joined #lisp 15:24:52 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:25:52 see also /proc/$pid/task/ for all the threads of a process 15:26:38 well, at least the thread tree is only two level 15:26:59 instead of being giant tree of processes 15:27:07 ... otoh, I don't know which is better 15:27:32 waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@93.135.248.88] has joined #lisp 15:28:59 anyone notice that slime/swank doesnt't work with the most recent sbcl/quicklisp when you try it using emacs -nw ? 15:31:28 jiacobucci: does not work how? 15:31:56 Yuzu-_ [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:33:30 almost connects, then doesn't. Its weird because it works when I use emacs with X. 15:33:34 -!- Yuzu- [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:33:58 erase your fasl files 15:34:22 rm -rf .cache/common-lisp/* 15:34:36 and also any in the .slime directory and .sbcl directories. 15:34:43 pnq [~nick@AC811867.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 15:35:05 I updated sbcl from git yesterday, and it works fine on a terminal or in an X frame. 15:35:08 ha, it works now 15:35:11 just had to ask people 15:35:26 didn't need to clear the fasl cache. 15:35:44 -!- silenius [~silenus@p4FC226CD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:36:10 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-ovegflwvriajpgxb] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:36:16 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:36:20 i hate when that happens, I checked it on two different computers, then when I ask about it, its gone. 15:36:37 thanks for the help. 15:38:41 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 15:39:54 TristamWrk [~thomaj11@2620:0:2820:b03:201:4aff:fef3:f0d4] has joined #lisp 15:40:18 -!- misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:42:27 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:42:29 -!- TristamWrk [~thomaj11@2620:0:2820:b03:201:4aff:fef3:f0d4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:42:57 TristamWrk [~thomaj11@2620:0:2820:b03:201:4aff:fef3:f0d4] has joined #lisp 15:43:05 -!- TristamWrk [~thomaj11@2620:0:2820:b03:201:4aff:fef3:f0d4] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:43:20 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:43:20 TristamWrk [~thomaj11@2620:0:2820:b03:201:4aff:fef3:f0d4] has joined #lisp 15:44:07 pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:08 redline6561 [~redline65@cei-gla-cpk2.coxinc.com] has joined #lisp 15:44:18 -!- TristamWrk [~thomaj11@2620:0:2820:b03:201:4aff:fef3:f0d4] has quit [Client Quit] 15:44:37 TristamWrk [~thomaj11@2620:0:2820:b03:201:4aff:fef3:f0d4] has joined #lisp 15:45:19 -!- TristamWrk [~thomaj11@2620:0:2820:b03:201:4aff:fef3:f0d4] has quit [Client Quit] 15:45:46 Major factoring of code can totally screw up your ASDF dependencies. 15:45:56 -!- gigamonkey [~user@c-68-35-77-11.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:46:09 Hints that the organization of the structures was flawed to begin with. 15:46:14 Davsebamse [~davse@gate.ipvision.dk] has joined #lisp 15:46:16 More factoring required. 15:47:22 -!- Davsebamse [~davse@gate.ipvision.dk] has quit [Client Quit] 15:48:54 wislin [~user@61.188.235.58] has joined #lisp 15:49:25 HG` [~HG@p579F7533.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:50:04 tcr1 [~tcr@212-41-67-207.adsl.solnet.ch] has joined #lisp 15:52:41 tcr2 [~tcr@80-218-247-218.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 15:53:02 TristamWrk 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[~chris@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 16:33:09 Hello 16:33:16 -!- mk2` [~user@159.92.65.64] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:38:29 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@240.29.195.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:39:43 seangrove [~user@c-98-234-243-26.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:45 gadek [~konrad@aahl50.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 16:39:57 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 16:42:39 -!- gor[e] [~svr@gw2.masterhost.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:43:02 kjander [~kristoffe@ip70-190-7-201.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:51 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA25685.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:46:59 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-84-108-12-231.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:49:10 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.178.231.233] has joined #lisp 16:51:11 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:54:56 OliverUv [~gandhi@195.159.235.178] has joined #lisp 16:56:15 -!- replore [~replore@ntkngw256114.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:56:28 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:56:48 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-190-197.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:57:20 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:58:18 Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:58:20 -!- tcr2 [~tcr@80-218-247-218.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:00:40 -!- cbp [~cesarbol9@189.247.171.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:01:10 tcr1 [~tcr@212-41-67-207.adsl.solnet.ch] has joined #lisp 17:01:51 -!- Yuzu-_ is now known as Yuzu-Zzz 17:02:05 tcr2 [~tcr@80-218-247-218.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:02:06 -!- tcr2 [~tcr@80-218-247-218.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 17:02:06 -!- jarmond 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17:44:13 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-84-108-12-231.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:45 -!- lispm [~lispm@d223216.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:55:22 -!- replore [~replore@ntkngw256114.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:56:30 nixfreak [~Aaron.Mei@216.114.200.178] has joined #lisp 18:01:03 replore [~replore@ntkngw256114.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:04:28 -!- ec|detached is now known as ec|irssi 18:04:38 -!- ec|irssi is now known as ec|detached 18:04:43 -!- ec|detached is now known as ec|irssi 18:05:06 -!- ec|irssi is now known as elliottcable 18:05:32 iori [~iori@110-133-45-54.rev.home.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:05:45 -!- iori [~iori@110-133-45-54.rev.home.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:06:29 -!- Patzy [~something@bro29-1-82-245-180-56.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:06:31 felideon [~felideon@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:03 -!- glidesurfer [~glidesurf@static-ip-62-75-247-238.inaddr.intergenia.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:07:13 carlocci [~nes@93.37.194.53] has joined #lisp 18:07:32 has anyone here played with racket ? 18:07:47 talking about the racket-lang.org 18:07:58 nixfreak: the people in #racket might have 18:08:11 or those in #scheme 18:08:14 Xach: naah, they woluldn't 18:08:20 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:08:25 * wouldn't 18:08:28 eli has. 18:08:32 i played with it once or twice 18:08:47 and got some libraries loaded and some examples .ss files there 18:08:52 got a checkerboard even 18:09:38 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.178.231.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:10:29 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 18:10:59 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.178.231.233] has joined #lisp 18:11:10 yeah I already talked to them getting opinons 18:11:30 just looking for opinons here too 18:13:06 -!- jiacobucci [~jiacobucc@gw-asdl.ae.gatech.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:13:21 well, it is a little bit different... 18:13:29 didn't use scheme much 18:13:29 nixfreak: it uses [ and that makes my eye twitch 18:13:40 i only know of some minor differences... 18:13:55 in syntax 18:14:09 it's cool and a nice "batteries" included kind of package.. but then again, it's scheme. 18:14:33 jiacobucci [~jiacobucc@gw-asdl.ae.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 18:14:50 well i found the graphics capab in it interesting 18:15:06 like drawing a circle 18:15:06 the drracket application is quite impressive 18:15:18 but scheme is not my favourite lisp. 18:15:20 -!- bsod1 [~sinan@31.141.123.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:15:24 it is nice graphics lib built in 18:15:35 yeah. there are some very nice "programmable music" demos made with it too, i think. 18:15:48 hypno: you may be thinking of fluxus 18:15:55 impromptu uses tinyscheme. 18:16:30 it's not all that hard to interface to opengl or objc or whatever with CL these days either tho. :) 18:17:13 yes but all other gui things with common-lisp are non-free! 18:17:18 when I started playing with drscheme, i was slightly confused by the 'select a language' dynamic. 18:17:26 a beginner guide to creating bindings to C libraries would be nice btw 18:17:38 homie: non-free? 18:17:43 limited! 18:17:45 homie: nonsense. cl-gtk, cl-tk and commonqt are all free software. 18:17:49 not to mention mcclim. 18:17:51 homie: limited? 18:18:09 hrmm, like lispworks-ide thing i meant 18:18:17 oh, you mean the editors? 18:18:21 yes 18:18:23 sorry 18:18:30 i wasn't clear 18:18:33 well, there's that eclipse plugin... 18:18:42 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:18:48 but I didn't have much success with it (does seem to work for others) 18:19:04 (and it's been a while since I tried using it (20 months or so)) 18:19:05 the editor in drscheme is not sufficiently emacs-like. 18:19:29 s/drscheme/drracket 18:19:32 whatever 18:19:56 but it does get a new user/student up and running with as little pain as possible, which is good. 18:20:19 it has also other parts, with intro to algol or so.... 18:20:20 hey wait, I really want that C bindings thing. In fact, I want help with specific bindings. Namely those for webos, I'm curious as to whether or not it would be feasible to use Common Lisp as a backend instead of js. 18:20:50 wait or was that ada ? 18:20:50 <|3b|> madnificent: have you seen the intro in the cffi manual? 18:21:18 *madnificent* would actually like it if there would be very very good support for eclipse (or equivalent, as I don't intend to use it myself) for common lisp. 18:21:32 |3b|: I think I've read it in the past... I meant a hands-on thing 18:22:24 |3b|: ah, you mean the chapter titled 'tutorial' 18:22:27 *madnificent* checks once again 18:22:49 madnificent: you mean with examples and explanations ... lol 18:23:37 Fade: (Good thing Racket's not a Scheme then.) 18:24:06 eli: at that level of splitting hairs, my interest is completely dissipated. 18:24:49 but now that you mention it, what differentiates racket and scheme? 18:25:13 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:25:20 Fade: FWIW, in the face of r6/7rs I've learned to agree with the average criticism of scheme on lisp circles. 18:25:49 Racket is first of all a practical tool, so there's no illusion of a 50-page spec being good in any way. 18:26:10 those are cultural artifacts. I'm talking about language. 18:26:28 when I put scheme code in drracket, it runs as expected. 18:26:39 |3b|: I think my problem mostly lies with a lack of knowledge of using C libraries... 18:26:52 Fade: For conceptual differences between racket and scheme, they all boil down to that as the core difference. 18:26:56 <|3b|> madnificent: yeah, that could make it more difficult :) 18:27:24 but I thought racket had some lisp in it 18:27:39 or takes advantage of some lisp functionality 18:27:43 nixfreak: that's pretty close to a vi|emacs conversation. 18:28:14 if you're interested in a real discussion of the issue, seek out erik naggum's discussion of "is scheme a lisp?" 18:28:17 Fade: Like having a proper module system (vs. `load' and its diseases), or a real syntax system rather than the poor `syntax-rules' joke, or actually having lots of libraries even if --gasp-- they're "simple to do yourself". 18:28:31 (eg, the mythical "you don't need loops" thing) 18:29:02 nixfreak: It does, but that's true of scheme and any other child of the extended family. 18:29:16 does racket have separate namespaces for functions/variables etc? 18:29:18 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:29:31 no 18:29:41 Fade: No; and no cl-like package system... 18:29:44 lisp1-lisp 18:30:01 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:30:05 Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:30:07 But it's possible to make up a lisp2 language. 18:30:13 (And has been done, in fact.) 18:30:26 turing complete language is turing complete. ;) 18:30:51 I like the built in call/cc 18:31:05 which gets ginned up by everybody who has seemingly ever written a web framework for CL. 18:31:18 tcr1 [~tcr@80-218-247-218.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 18:31:26 Fade: I'm not referring to the TM-complete arguments -- I'm talking about local (macro-level) transformations. 18:31:36 it'd be nice if CL had built in continuations with the syntax for them. 18:32:05 make a DSL for it ? 18:32:13 Continuations don't need special syntax, but the do require low-level support at the implementation level. 18:32:20 eli: I would imagine any lisp could be used to bootstrap a lisp dialect in the presence of real macros. 18:32:21 ah 18:32:39 Fade: on "Is scheme a `lisp'": I can't find the link to it, only content describing it. 18:32:59 madnificent: Xach's archive of Erik Naggum's posts has it 18:33:04 homie: The DSL approach suffers from requiring a CPS transformation, which means that you have to stay within that DSL (so no general lisp calls to other code). 18:33:35 oh 18:33:52 it's a good feature, that i wish was included in CL. 18:34:01 amb007 [~a_bakic@240.29.195.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:14 Fade: It wasn't as trivial as that -- specifically, the thing that I'm talking about was fighting to somehow get macros done properly, and the lisp2-ness made it difficult. 18:34:22 turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:29 bsod1 [~osa1@31.141.118.164] has joined #lisp 18:34:30 (But that already more than I really know about that code...) 18:34:36 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@vpnsh0058.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 18:37:01 Fade: and I can't find it in that interface which only gives 25 results per page and return roughly everything every time 18:37:25 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 18:37:37 muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:41 that's definitely where I read it.. although google news' interface would probably show up the discussion in the comp.lang.lisp archive. 18:39:38 lanthan [~ze@p54B7EBC3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:47 markskil1eck [~chris@host86-143-13-72.range86-143.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:40:07 Fade: is it 'why scheme is not a lisp' ? 18:40:20 * why is scheme not a lisp 18:40:32 maybe 18:40:39 I can't remember off the top of my head 18:41:05 Xach might have clearer memory; he pointed me to the article originally. 18:41:31 -!- lanthan [~ze@p54B7EBC3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 18:41:35 -!- markskilbeck [~chris@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:41:58 Fade: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3224964049435643@naggum.net.html 18:42:33 that's the one. 18:42:40 lanthan [~ze@p54B7EBC3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:50 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:43:12 *Xach* saved http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3063960348777794@naggum.no.html also 18:44:56 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-84-108-12-231.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:45:27 Patzy [~something@bro29-1-82-245-180-56.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:28 *madnificent* wasn't particularly impressed by the first one. 18:47:52 anyhow, by erik's (reasonable imo) arguements, racket is even less "lisp" than scheme is. 18:49:27 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.178.231.233] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:49:42 -!- replore [~replore@ntkngw256114.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:50:03 Not really, naggum's opinion was usually lumping all schemes together, in what is defined as "the standard scheme" (ie, the toy language that I was referring to above). 18:50:48 In that sense, racket is more of a lisp than scheme is. Specifically, dumping the sacredness of "only 50 pages". 18:51:44 one more along those lines: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3145964695296475@naggum.no.html 18:52:37 HG`` [~HG@p5DC04FBA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:02 gozek [~quassel@85.52.166.111] has joined #lisp 18:53:25 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:54:19 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 18:54:23 -!- HG` [~HG@p579F7533.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:54:55 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:18 Yes, that's a good example -- see the "Scheme people" (over) generalization. 18:55:35 Xach: thanks. Still need to read the last sample, but I don't feel the differences are that big 18:56:57 madnificent: See what I wrote earlier -- the differences can be huge if you talk about the high-level opinion on language design; but indeed when you go down to the implementation level, the differences become much more minor. 18:57:19 (That's not saying that they disappear of course, like lisp2, or defmacro, or package system, or phases, etc.) 18:58:26 -!- pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has left #lisp 18:59:27 I figured that the lisp community wanted a clear simple view so that they could reason on their language 18:59:53 -!- churib [~churib@95.156.194.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:59:54 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@vpnsh0058.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:59:58 churib [~churib@95.156.194.105] has joined #lisp 19:01:19 I also figured that -from a theoretical point of view- one could be mapped to the other with some renaming and practically unfeasible transformations. As such I assumed that the communities would grow back together. However, Erik Naggum seems to indicate much more hostility, much to my surprise. 19:03:51 I wonder if he dislikes research for some reason. I reccon that to be easier in a small language like scheme, than in a big one like Common Lisp. Mainly because the issues he shows don't apply there and because of the way we do research... perhaps he somehow found it to be insufficient? 19:04:13 I do like his lack of capitals in the beginning of sentences 19:04:15 The specific crowd that naggum was talking to at the time was much smaller than what his posts would make you think. Dorai is specifically someone who was never in that group. 19:04:51 That was a fashion thing, IIRC he eventually switched capitals back on. 19:05:39 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@nat/google/x-qnzzwcpckmhyvrqw] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:06:04 More for ease of emacs-assisted prose editing. 19:06:19 eli: he did? In the internal wiki I've tried dropping capitals and it seemed to work/look fairly nice. 19:06:27 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@vpnsh0018.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 19:06:32 Xach: I don't understand what you want to say 19:07:00 madnificent: Ok. 19:07:06 -!- gozek [~quassel@85.52.166.111] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:07:32 Xach: no, not ok, I want to understand what you wanted to say. :) 19:07:52 madnificent: What in particular did you find confusing? 19:08:29 "How does lack of capitals make prose editing in emacs easier?" 19:08:42 Xach: well, how does not typing capitals (or typing them, as I don't know for which one it applies) in emacs assisted prose editing... 19:09:26 also: I should learn to write sentences, but I prefer to leave it up to Fade. So what Fade says is truth. 19:09:38 sabalabas [~sabalaba@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:40 madnificent: the capitalization of a word no longer relies on its position in the sentence, and it can be moved without changing it. 19:09:55 It's not lack of capitals, it's lack of initial capitals. 19:11:09 I don't tend to throw sentences around that often. Perhaps others do it more often. 19:11:25 madnificent: consider also joining two sentences. 19:11:43 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.emacs/msg/05fb280ac746d653 has some info 19:12:43 -!- waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@93.135.248.88] has quit [Quit: WTF? leaving!] 19:15:08 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-190-197.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:15:58 21.3 keystrokes per second is high btw 19:16:39 -!- sabalabas [~sabalaba@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:17:41 -!- Guthur [c743cb8d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.141] has quit [Disconnected by services] 19:17:49 Guthur [~Guthur@host81-155-205-118.range81-155.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:18:37 Xach: very interesting read. It does surprise me that he did the effort of writing those tools, but didn't take the effort to auto-capitalize a paragraph 19:19:46 Xach: I'm 95% sure that he posted at some post some explanation about not using capitals, and that it was very much at the expected idological level rather than something with Emacs. 19:20:39 On the contrary, making some Emacs hook put capitals where needed would be pretty easy for him. (And he was definitely pedantic enough to invest a lot of time on misc formatting-related hooks.) 19:21:54 beach` [~user@116.118.3.78] has joined #lisp 19:22:38 doomrobo [~doomrobo@cpe-68-174-188-146.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:22:59 Is there any way to get an MIT Scheme implementation without having to deal with Emacs? 19:23:07 -!- bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:23:36 -!- beach [~user@116.118.6.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 263 seconds] 19:24:23 -!- markskil1eck [~chris@host86-143-13-72.range86-143.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:25:19 doomrobo: maybe #scheme would know 19:25:27 ok 19:25:31 -!- doomrobo [~doomrobo@cpe-68-174-188-146.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 19:26:06 eli: That seems pretty likely. Maybe I have the motivational proportions wrong. 19:26:34 hi 19:27:27 Hello 19:27:34 Hello 19:27:50 Xach: (You might try to grep for it...) 19:36:07 markskilbeck [~chris@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 19:36:56 doomrobo doesn't like EMACS 19:37:23 maybe he used micro-emacs on Amiga PC class 19:37:28 computers 19:37:42 Posterdati: I didn't like it before switching to dvorak either 19:38:03 madnificent: How long did it take you to be comfortable using dvorak? 19:38:24 is dvorak the keyboard system for impaired people? 19:38:30 ? 19:38:43 lol 19:38:43 Posterdati: yes it is, stay away from it 19:38:58 Dvorak is a half-measure on the path to direct neural interfaces. 19:39:01 colemak is also nice 19:39:18 madnificent: fortunately I don't need a Dvorak keyboard 19:40:21 Posterdati: You pretty much only need oxygen, sleep, water and a bit of food sometimes 19:40:29 qizwiz [~user@ppp-70-245-65-87.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:40:29 drdo: irrelevant, it varies from person to person. I had logs about it, but I seem to have lost them. Regardless, I seem to remember being verrrrry frustrated for a week, maybe two. It does take a while before you actually start typing faster than you did on qwerty, as you need ot relearn the fast typing of common words. However, it is clearly easier on your hands. Typing on qwerty vs dvorak now gives me the same feeling as coding 19:40:29 java versus coding lisp. 19:40:49 drdo: and sblc, slime and emacs 19:40:58 Posterdati: what I said was a joke. It's a different keyboard layout. Like qwerty versus azerty 19:41:10 drdo: ah and a PC with debian on it 19:41:21 Posterdati: Sure, but you get no electric power 19:41:29 waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-5d87f858.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:30 madnificent: ok :) 19:41:34 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@vpnsh0018.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:41:38 drdo: :( why not? 19:41:53 madnificent: I imagine it being hard to get used to different keybinds on emacs and so? 19:41:56 drdo: I payed it 19:42:03 drdo: yes, what Harag said. Don't forget to look at colemak. If I would've known it when it existed back then, then I'd have used that. 19:42:04 or did you rebind them to match the old positions? 19:42:06 keep some electric ealse to power your pc, if they can power xmas lights you can make it work for the pc 19:42:12 eels 19:42:22 drdo: I switched from vim to emacs when I learned dvorak. Together with learning lisp 19:42:39 drdo: now that I made a program to solve electrical circuits :( no power at all... 19:42:49 drdo: so I can't really comment on that. However people have told me that the emacs key bindings feel more natural on dvorak than they did on qwerty... so maybe it's all ok 19:42:55 madnificent : Did your brain lodge a protest? 19:43:00 otoh, that must indicate something about the default emacs keybindings 19:43:46 tmh: imagine that I'd be sitting here, trying to have this argument... but not being able to type down the words fast enough to actually keep the conversation running... yes, that pisses me off 19:43:55 *ChibaPet* imagines b,n,p,f mapping to the same positions as h,j,k,l under Dvorak... =snicker= 19:44:06 i changed to colemak and ergoemacs keybindings at the same time so the keybinings relearning was a minor 19:44:22 madnificent: How much faster can you type now? 19:44:39 Harag: they should warn about those keybindings when people are starting to learn emacs... 19:44:47 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 263 seconds] 19:44:50 Harag: it scared the hell out of my when I tried to switch to those bindings 19:45:12 drdo: I don't think I actually type that much faster, but the ease at which it goes is far superior... 19:45:24 so going for a more sane keyboard layout is worth it? i mostly use programmin languages where i spent more time thinking than programming but it still might be worth a try 19:45:34 -!- homie [~levent.gu@xdsl-84-44-178-222.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:46:01 drdo: I used to reach 450 (correct) characters per minute... that's rather good... I should get accustomed to typing software to try it out... can emacs give a character per second counter, perhaps? 19:46:36 madnificent: I was using cusp/eclipse before emacs and after a few weeks on emacs the pain drove me to change to colemak and the ergoemacs bindings 19:46:46 urandom__: yes, especially for programming. Your brain needs all attention to think about the application, not to be bothered with odd hand-movements or wrist-pain (which I still have, but to a lesser extent) 19:46:59 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-116-169.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 19:47:27 Harag: do you, perhaps, know people that made the dvorak -> colemak change and what effect that had? 19:47:49 madnificent: nope 19:48:04 I tried the dvorak layout back in the Amiga days. I got to 30 wpm or so the first or second day in; it's pretty comfortable 19:48:06 i actually dont even know anybody that uses colemak 19:48:32 but I've just stuck with qwerty since 19:48:47 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-243-253.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 19:49:09 -!- Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:49:13 all's you need for lisp prorgramming is a key layout where ( and ) are unshifted keystrokes :) 19:49:21 madnificent: what i really want to try are those foot peddle thingies 19:49:35 as a reference, in our CS group, we're now with 3 people using dvorak and 3 not using it. All that switched are very happy with their change. I think I was the slowest to learn it 19:49:44 Harag: I want a data hand :) 19:50:33 Phoodus: yet another friend made a custom layout that used M-u and M-h for that (on dvorak, so that gives M-f and M-j on qwerty) 19:50:40 madnificent: wow 19:50:56 Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #lisp 19:51:04 Harag: in reference to what? 19:51:11 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-190-197.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:51:16 madnificent: I'd probably swap [] for () on qwerty 19:51:19 the data hand 19:51:35 and make shift-' as ` 19:51:59 sellout- [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:06 madnificent: i have been looking into building my own headset thingy if there was a wetware plugin availble i would get it 19:52:22 Harag: yes, it is epic... I want one but can find, nor afford it 19:52:56 madnificent: that is why i am looking at building my own, there is an opensource once with plans etc 19:54:11 Harag: link? 19:54:25 checking bookmarks now 19:54:42 *madnificent* thinks that a data hand is the only real solution 19:54:50 http://openeeg.sourceforge.net/doc/index.html 19:55:05 apexi200sx [~apexi200s@cpc2-salf4-0-0-cust701.10-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 19:55:12 I reccon that it would be more important for my hands than switching from qwerty to dvorak (or azerty to qwerty for that matter). However, they do go hand in hand. 19:55:25 madnificent: reckon? 19:55:40 Harag: I use colemak 19:55:51 kewl 19:56:00 dlowe: I can only assume I meant that :) 19:56:11 Harag: that's a neuro interface, not a data hand, right? 19:56:18 yes 19:56:32 I don't believe that that will work for programming 19:57:05 i dont believe anything is impossible iwith time and money 19:57:06 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:57:10 mostly because there will be a lot of interference as your brain is already boiling to think up what you want to write down. At least, that's what I think of it. 19:57:12 it will be a lot of fun to try thow 19:57:26 *madnificent* wanted a data hand 19:58:39 madnificent: i think if you did not try to think about code but concept then just maybe 19:59:49 it will take some setting up but if you picture a symbol of a human being in your mind then the interface should translate that to a human class or something 19:59:58 that may even be to low a level 20:00:22 anyway its oft .... hehehe 20:00:25 I think there will be too much noise, yet I wouldn't mind to be proven wrong :) 20:01:04 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-152-135-21.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:01:48 stis [~stis@host-95-201-66-170.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 20:01:51 *urandom__* changed his layout to colemak now 20:02:17 urandom__: congrats... now I will start pissing you off so you have motivation to type faster 20:03:18 Harag: i use colemak too 20:03:23 madnificent: datahands are nice 20:03:36 wow that took some time to type 20:03:46 oGMo: you toyed with one? 20:03:50 abeaumont: great now we are 3 ...lol 20:04:00 madnificent: i've been using them for about a decade ;) 20:04:02 urandom__: that's normal. Don't give up (srsly) 20:04:09 oGMo: have a spare one? 20:04:20 madnificent: heh no 20:04:27 abeaumont: switched from dvorak, maybe? 20:04:29 urandom__: best key trainer: klavaro. hands down 20:04:32 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:05:01 dlowe: now wait 'till he had the effort to respond... searching for every key on his keyboard :) 20:05:02 madnificent: no, from querty 20:05:06 damn 20:05:23 oGMo: what 's your oppinion on the datahand? 20:05:29 oGMo: and why did you buy it? 20:05:34 and why aren't we in #lispcafe? 20:05:38 madnificent: imho dvorak is unusable with emacs, so never considered it 20:05:59 how is that? 20:06:27 I hope I dont have to type any pw ;) 20:07:01 pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:16 will be hell 20:07:28 madnificent: bought it due to RSI. works great; pain minimized .. can't use a regular keyboard for any period 20:08:00 is #lispcafe a lisper "general topics" channel? haven't heard of it 20:08:34 oGMo: it's a converted channel which used to be (at some time) both lispcafe and lispgarden... lispgarden was the one for beginners and lispcafe was the one for lisp questions. 20:08:42 though I start to get faster 20:08:44 madnificent: ah 20:09:00 oGMo: but you aren't there, I see :) 20:09:13 *madnificent* pokes urandom__ 20:09:34 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-152-135-21.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 20:10:12 oGMo: so you think that it was worth the price? OR were you simply accepting it because you actually had to switch keyboards? 20:11:12 madnificent: it's been worth it for me. but i've used it pretty much every day for a long time. 20:12:51 I better dont forget to change it back before rebooting 20:12:54 oGMo: and the typing speed? 20:13:09 urandom__: print out a map of all the characters while you still can :) 20:13:46 JohnnyL [~IceChat7@ool-4a5a7407.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:59 madnificent: i haven't had any problems; you can type fast/accurately, but you also have to spend time learning it 20:14:08 madnificent good idea 20:15:16 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:15:32 Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:16:47 I can feel how my brain starts to adapt so the new KB 20:17:38 -!- HG`` [~HG@p5DC04FBA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:19:08 shachaf_ [~shachaf@204.109.63.130] has joined #lisp 20:19:38 does it have dead keys? 20:22:40 urandom__: why would you kill keys? 20:23:19 -!- stis [~stis@host-95-201-66-170.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:23:37 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:24:09 -!- shachaf_ [~shachaf@204.109.63.130] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:26:03 madnificent no, keys to compose non ascii letters of other langs 20:26:26 muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:27 eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 20:27:28 for non englisch writing 20:27:47 urandom__: is there, perhaps, an international mode for colemak? 20:27:58 I use an international mode for dvorak atm and that seems to work just fine. 20:28:47 -!- milanj [~milanj_@178-223-191-40.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:30:40 setxkbmap us -variant colemak I did. what is for dead key mode? 20:30:46 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:32:25 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-32-11-41.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:33:01 urandom__: sorry, I don't find such a variant immediately online 20:33:13 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-32-11-41.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:46 milanj [~milanj_@178-223-155-156.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 20:34:10  20:34:12 ah 20:34:26 http://colemak.com/Multilingual#Dead_keys 20:35:11 mstevens [~mstevens@ceres.etla.org] has joined #lisp 20:35:11 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@ceres.etla.org] has quit [Changing host] 20:35:11 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 20:36:08 should work for now 20:40:04 -!- armence [~armence@unaffiliated/armence] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:41:05 -!- OliverUv [~gandhi@195.159.235.178] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:41:31 OliverUv [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has joined #lisp 20:42:57 -!- seangrove [~user@c-98-234-243-26.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:43:47 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:46:25 -!- npoektop [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:46:55 silenius [~silenus@p4FC226CD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:57 -!- TristamWrk [~thomaj11@2620:0:2820:b03:201:4aff:fef3:f0d4] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:47:43 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 20:49:30 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:52:30 armence [~armence@unaffiliated/armence] has joined #lisp 20:55:11 jmbr [~jmbr@115.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 20:55:54 Kruppe [~user@CPE00222d128ba2-CM00222d128b9e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:56:06 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:59:32 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:59:32 francogrex [~user@109.130.85.142] has joined #lisp 21:02:28 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@31.141.118.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:07:52 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 21:08:45 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:09:44 -!- apexi200sx [~apexi200s@cpc2-salf4-0-0-cust701.10-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #lisp 21:10:20 setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:11:14 -!- shachaf [~shachaf@208.69.183.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:12:59 shachaf [~shachaf@204.109.63.130] has joined #lisp 21:13:32 -!- ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:14:20 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 21:16:28 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.85.142] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:17:11 fourier [~user@h-200-168.A176.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 21:18:38 Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:20:07 ubii [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:47 Re: Naggum's opinion about scheme, here is the "vertebrate" you can order at the lisp restaurant. Tell me if it has any value: http://paste.lisp.org/display/122296 21:25:17 Otherwise I'd tend to agree with all his arguments. 21:25:53 LISP 1.5 is more a lisp than scheme: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/small-cl-pgms/wang.html 21:26:17 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:26:39 -!- basho__ [~basho__@dslb-092-076-070-166.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:27:24 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 21:27:43 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-190-197.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:28:06 i like his with-functions (or something like that) macro, nice macro example despite not many CL programmers will use it 21:29:35 madnificent: Capitalization is the difference between "I had to help my uncle Jack off a horse." and "I had to help my uncle jack off a horse." 21:29:35 21:31:11 pjb: I don't mind capitals for names or for anything where there's an ambiguity 21:32:04 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:32:43 "off a horse" could be the name of an item you helped your uncle steal 21:32:51 like a movie or book 21:33:03 Phoodus: or a very very bad movie 21:34:45 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:35:02 cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:12 muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:42:37 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:42:43 Jasko3 [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 21:43:20 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 21:45:41 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:49:17 pnq [~nick@AC83C1B1.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 21:50:26 Icelos [~Icelos@gateway/tor-sasl/icelos] has joined #lisp 21:50:48 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c711b3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:53:08 pjb: did you write this language code for anything but pedagogical reasons? 21:53:17 -!- Yuzu- [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:53:22 Icelos pasted "cond" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122398 21:53:34 Yuzu- [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 21:54:10 <|3b|> Icelos: #scheme might know more about that code 21:54:44 *|3b|* guesses it is the usual problem of function arguments being evaluated before the function is called though 21:54:57 ok 21:55:50 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-106-173.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 21:57:12 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:57:18 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-106-173.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Client Quit] 21:59:40 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:01:11 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:01:20 hi 22:02:28 -!- milanj [~milanj_@178-223-155-156.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:03:43 -!- markskilbeck [~chris@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:04:06 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:05:08 pjb: did you read GEB? 22:06:58 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:07:49 -!- Icelos [~Icelos@gateway/tor-sasl/icelos] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:09:22 Keta [~Katie@hlfxns0148w-142177172125.region5.highspeedunplugged.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:49 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:09:58 Yuzu-_ [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:10:56 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:11:38 Yuzu-__ [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:11:47 -!- Yuzu- [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:13:20 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@ip72-200-123-53.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:20 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@ip72-200-123-53.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:13:20 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 22:14:02 Yuzu- [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:14:57 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:15:32 -!- Yuzu-_ [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:15:59 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:16:35 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@ip72-200-123-53.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:35 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@ip72-200-123-53.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:16:35 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 22:16:48 -!- Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:16:55 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:16:56 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-116-169.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:17 -!- Yuzu-__ [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:17:31 -!- redline6561 [~redline65@66.6.146.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:18:17 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-53-222.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 22:18:17 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-53-222.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Changing host] 22:18:17 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 22:18:39 -!- sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:19:50 Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@1807ds2-noe.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 22:19:59 drdo` [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 22:20:11 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:20:55 -!- drdo` is now known as drdo 22:23:04 -!- beach` is now known as beach 22:23:47 Good morning everyone! 22:24:06 -!- Yuzu- [~yuzuchan@p2159-ipad64osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:24:16 good morning beach. 22:26:38 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 22:28:26 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:34:57 Posterdati: I did, a long time ago, in its French translation (which by the confession of the author, is better than the English version!). Coincidentally, I just ordered the English version last week... 22:35:51 Fade: I guess the answer is yes, for pedagogical reasons. Mostly, as an answer to people asking what are the differences between lisp and scheme :-) 22:35:55 -!- felideon [~felideon@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: b] 22:36:21 felideon [~felideon@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:24 jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.28.104] has joined #lisp 22:37:25 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:37:52 Fade: but there are interesting things to learn from it. Eg. it is (apparently, more study would be needed) easier to write extensions in CL to run scheme programs, than extensions in scheme to run CL programs. Also, comparing with what is required to run LISP 1.5 programs in CL, we can infer that indeed, scheme is more alien to CL than LISP 1.5 or emacs lisp. 22:39:38 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-243-253.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 22:39:41 A third reason, but which is somewhat nullified in this Internet age and easy availability and exchange of source code and language implementations, would be to boot off a lisp program on any lisp or scheme implementation. 22:43:48 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.28.104] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:44:06 -!- pnq [~nick@AC83C1B1.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:47:13 -!- waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-5d87f858.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:48:11 nice 22:48:44 well, I'm off for the evening. have a good $timezone-appropriate-interval. 22:49:16 Good night! 22:49:59 replore [~replore@ntkngw256114.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:51:17 pnq 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