00:00:04 yes, I need practice hard 00:00:15 p_l|backup: Or perhaps he needs to english his polish? 00:00:22 p_l|backup: to Polish? that can't be right 00:00:43 polish? 00:00:57 lisp_forth: joke based on dual meanings of word "polish" 00:01:13 churib [~churib@95.156.194.105] has joined #lisp 00:01:21 oh, ok 00:02:33 I just get up, having the breakfast 00:02:56 this is not twitter! 00:03:07 there's a verb "to polish", meaning (amongs others) To refine; remove imperfections from.; and noun "Polish", which outside of the material used to shine something describes the language of Poland :) 00:04:12 Huh, I thought it might have had to do with the notation. 00:04:56 Bike: because "Polish" is also an adjective based on noun "Poland" meaning the country :) 00:05:13 Yeah, I get it now. 00:05:27 *beach* thinks the lispers are bored today. 00:05:39 beach: well, for some of us it's rather late 00:05:52 Joreji_ [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 00:06:01 USA didn't wake up yet, and Europe is asleep 00:06:23 it's about 4-8pm in the USA 00:06:27 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@nat/google/x-vnruewwdwefrkmhr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:06:35 p_l|backup: Oh, so not bored, but rather exhausted? 00:07:03 Phoodus: ah 00:07:04 have a rest 00:07:17 Phoodus: got it mixed up 00:07:24 suddenly i find myself wanting source locations for hash-tables 00:08:32 do you mean for keys? 00:08:43 everyman :test #'(lambda (x) (and (lisperp x) (everymanp x))))) question: why put a " : " forwardtest 00:09:05 because it makes it a keyword 00:09:09 clhs keyword 00:09:10 beach: well, some of us... I have been doing recently some crazy stuff I didn't expect, flying by the seat of my pants... 00:09:12 mpereira [~mpereira@ec2-50-16-8-218.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 00:09:12 krappie__ [~brain@mx.skitzo.org] has joined #lisp 00:09:27 test is in the everyman's package? 00:09:27 -!- leyyer_su [~user@222.212.6.60] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:09:37 mobydick [~textual@124-171-177-47.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 00:09:46 *stassats* expresses his discontent with specbot's absence 00:10:09 beach: to the point of nearly not reading all the paperwork preparing a submission to seed fund for money :) 00:10:14 symbol-in-current-*package*, package:symbol, #:symbol-in-no-package, :keyword-symbol 00:10:17 kpreid [~kpreid@nat/google/x-ocoydbjywlzjaxnl] has joined #lisp 00:10:34 actually, package:exported-symbol, package::any-symbol-in-package 00:10:39 p_l|backup: Sounds pretty exhausting indeed. 00:11:40 beach: yeah, especially when the meeting with VC was rather sudden and unexpected (well, less unexpected than spanish inquisition, which showed up... two days ago? No... three?) 00:11:40 package::any-symbol-in-package? as c++ ::std 00:11:47 no 00:13:33 "Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!" 00:19:17 today is the weekend, what will you do 00:19:36 write some lisp code, naturally 00:20:39 I just finish learing onlisp and a bood about basic lisp 00:21:03 now I am going to write code step by step 00:25:16 -!- cheezus1 [~Adium@69.196.141.102] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:28:50 -!- silenius [~silenus@p4FC22C29.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:32:22 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:32:33 Xach: i just rediscovered http://xach.livejournal.com/185376.html 00:33:11 your charts are as cool as ever! it would be interesting to see an updated one for sbcl 00:34:53 chp [~chp@2001:da8:a000:155:5eff:35ff:fe0c:c3ef] has joined #lisp 00:35:36 leyyer_su [~user@222.212.6.60] has joined #lisp 00:38:45 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@nat/google/x-ocoydbjywlzjaxnl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:40:06 -!- glidesurfer [~glidesurf@2002:4fcd:d310:0:230:5ff:fe37:7a8d] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:41:39 -!- nikodemus_ [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:44:54 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has joined #lisp 00:45:19 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483B7C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:46:39 -!- Deathaholic [~Mococa@177.42.199.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:51:08 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 00:54:05 glidesurfer [~glidesurf@2002:4fcd:d463:0:230:5ff:fe37:7a8d] has joined #lisp 00:54:37 interesting/sad 00:55:37 Why "sad"? 00:56:22 has its waist become so thin? 00:56:25 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:56:47 It has? 00:56:58 i don't know! 00:57:25 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:02:48 Deathaholic [~Mococa@177.42.199.53] has joined #lisp 01:02:49 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:05:02 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-174-096-202-029.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: statonjr] 01:05:08 -!- spiaggia [~user@113.161.72.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:05:48 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@82.143.220.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:06:54 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 01:08:15 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-176-90.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:08:45 i bet it will become more interesting as the switch to git happens, since then identities of non-mainline committers will be retained in the history when their patches are merged 01:11:27 -!- kanen [~kanen@c-98-234-85-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:13:15 museun [~what@c-98-252-140-73.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:13:36 sellout- [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:17:40 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-185-93.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:03 Since I'm new to CL: Is it better to use a function or a macro in this case? http://paste.lisp.org/display/122324 01:18:14 a function 01:18:20 (i haven't looked at the code) 01:18:30 So is it a general rule? 01:18:35 yes 01:18:54 -!- mheld_ [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mheld_] 01:19:35 if you can use either, use a function 01:20:05 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.134.248] has joined #lisp 01:20:17 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-115-225.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 01:20:21 if you want to look at arguments and optimize based on those, write a compiler macro for the function. see define-compiler-macro 01:20:39 Even if it's (theoretically) saving some cycles? (text-and-replace vs. function call) 01:20:49 btw, that loop can be written as (loop for d in divisors thereis (zerop (mod n d))) 01:21:00 glidesurfer: hence the compiler macro 01:21:06 glidesurfer: you can declare your function inline 01:21:08 or just make the function inline 01:21:23 Has someone ported the Land of Lisp examples to SBCL? 01:21:47 i believe there's only one example which doesn't work on sbcl 01:21:55 stassats: sockets right? 01:22:02 i don't remember 01:22:21 I seem to be having trouble with the Wumpus. Some weird behavior 01:22:46 wumpus required shelling out to a vector->png utility, right? 01:22:52 one neat trick is to have %foo inline then (defun foo (...) (%foo ...)) as the out-of-line version, and finally a compiler-macro along the lines of (define-compiler-macro foo (&whole form &rest args) (if (some #'constantp args) `(%foo ,@args) form)) 01:23:27 Phoodus: yeah. That seems to be working fine. I used asdf:run-shell-command 01:23:51 glidesurfer: You might want to fix your indentation as well. 01:24:04 beach: ? 01:24:24 glidesurfer: Your LOOP bodies have quite arbitrary indentation. 01:24:40 gnuemacs loop indentation is like that by default 01:24:41 and the second loop can be written as (loop for x from 1 below *limit* count (is-divisible? x 3 5)) 01:24:48 I don't know if the *city-nodes* are supposed to have lists and dotted lists. Doesn't seem right 01:24:57 well, maybe not quite like like that 01:25:00 but close 01:25:08 glidesurfer: And you might want to use WHEN instead of IF when there is no `else' branch. 01:25:34 glidesurfer: I recommend you use the slime-indentation contribution. 01:26:02 beach: as nikodemus said, that's GNU Emacs with SLIME 01:26:22 glidesurfer: And you might want to decide once and for all whether to put do/collect first on a line by itself or not. 01:26:23 Kenjin pasted "*city-nodes*" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122325 01:26:34 glidesurfer: I recommend you use the slime-indentation contribution. 01:26:37 glidesurfer: add slime-indentation to your slime-setup 01:26:47 ok, I'll do 01:26:52 Kenjin: you have *print-circle* set to t 01:27:03 there are no dotted lists actually 01:27:09 stassats: that rings a bell 01:27:15 (well, apart from the fact the all lists are dotted) 01:27:22 :) 01:27:32 Yuzu- [~yuzuchan@p5052-ipad406osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:27:42 except for nil, of course 01:28:26 so, set *print-circle* to nil, and evaluate *congestion-city-nodes* again 01:28:27 so *print-circle* is doing that? I set that to t while reading chapter 7 01:28:35 ok 01:28:53 stassats: How are all lists other than nil dotted? 01:29:06 beach: (a list . nil) 01:29:07 groups of cons no? 01:29:24 stassats: that worked! ;) 01:29:27 stassats: I still don't get it. 01:30:05 stassats: From the glossary: dotted list n. a list which has a terminating atom that is not nil. (An atom by itself is not a dotted list, however.) 01:30:13 i'm using a literal "dotted" 01:30:19 Oh. 01:31:10 the second definition of dotted pair comes close "2. any cons, used to emphasize the use of the cons as a symmetric data pair." 01:33:33 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 01:35:53 wislin [~user@220.166.9.82] has joined #lisp 01:36:19 Hi. Everyone. 01:36:38 hi! 01:36:46 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:36:50 -!- perseus [~perseus@ec2-50-16-101-220.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:38:00 -!- lisp_forth [7a60cce4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.122.96.204.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:38:25 lisp_forth [7a60cce4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.122.96.204.228] has joined #lisp 01:38:55 Ohai wislin 01:39:01 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:40:28 Hello, Bacteria 01:42:06 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@96.31.242.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:42:52 -!- The_Fellow [~The_Fello@glida.mooo.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:43:01 Whats new wislin? 01:46:12 Bacteria: what's mean? 01:46:58 wislin: It means: "do you have anything interesting to report since last time the two of you talked". 01:52:41 -!- leyyer_su [~user@222.212.6.60] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:53:01 leyyer_su [~user@222.212.6.60] has joined #lisp 01:55:11 -!- leyyer_su [~user@222.212.6.60] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:56:45 leyyer_su [~user@222.212.6.60] has joined #lisp 01:59:49 jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.32.231] has joined #lisp 02:02:57 -!- macrocat [~marmalade@99.192.107.142] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:03:24 -!- jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.32.231] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:06:27 -!- glidesurfer [~glidesurf@2002:4fcd:d463:0:230:5ff:fe37:7a8d] has quit [Quit: Bye.] 02:06:55 neoesque [~neoesque@220-133-153-203.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:07:22 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-185-93.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 02:08:22 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@124-170-56-58.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:10:17 cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:26 ltriant [~ltriant@124-170-56-58.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 02:10:56 -!- iori [~iori@110-133-45-54.rev.home.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:12:03 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:12:24 kanen [~kanen@c-98-234-85-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:15:24 I am sure there is a reference somewhere (hopefully updated?) but I would like to know how many CL users there are and how many use SBCL, Clojure, etc.. 02:16:05 kanen: Why would you want to know that? 02:16:14 Obviously, there's this: http://langpop.com/ but the breakdowns are by language. 02:16:36 beach: I am attempting to convince a company (I am consulting) to use SBCL for a project. 02:16:40 there's a sbcl survey with over 500 responses: http://random-state.net/sbcl-survey-2010-results.html 02:16:56 kanen: And you are going to use the number of users for that? 02:17:00 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:17:47 beach: One metric, yes. 02:18:08 glidesurfer [~glidesurf@2002:4fcd:d463:0:230:5ff:fe37:7a8d] has joined #lisp 02:18:13 Phoodus: Very helpful link, thanks. 02:19:17 kanen: What is the reasoning here? The more users the better the language? 02:19:40 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:20:03 beach: Obviously not. The reasoning (from the client) is, "We need to be able to support the software, are there enough resources for us to do that after it is developed." 02:26:04 kanen: So you mean they need to make sure they can find programmers to maintain their code later? 02:26:53 For small client, more often is whether they can do it themselves. 02:27:20 or you can just write programs which don't need maintenance 02:27:22 rukubites [~user@d211-30-65-14.meb9.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 02:27:49 stassats`: wow, I'd like to see how that's accomplished 02:28:07 well, you just write perfect programs, that is all 02:28:35 and then that perfect program needs a new feature added 02:28:36 Is there a lisp library or an sbcl specific function that gets the current time in greater precision than GET-UNIVERSAL-TIME? 02:28:40 e.g. milliseconds 02:28:48 Phoodus: then it's not perfect! 02:28:52 heh 02:29:29 rukubites: what we did was compare universal time to internal time to get greater precision 02:29:50 figure out the delta between the two and use the internal time to fill in the greater precision 02:30:21 What is the 'internal time'? 02:30:27 rukubites: get-internal-run-time or get-internal-real-time 02:30:41 if you need such precise time, that might suggest that you're doing something wrong 02:30:48 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:30:48 rukubites: it is: internal-time-units-per-second 02:31:01 stassats`: I am interfacing with the zeromq library and polling sockets. 02:31:33 I think something like say 1/10th of a second is not too big a deal for granularity. 02:31:36 dmiles [dmiles@c-24-21-133-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:31:41 1 second is quite coarse. 02:31:41 what I don't know is if it's possible for internal time to rollover 02:31:51 rukubites: internal-time-units-per-second is usually quite big. 02:31:57 but that's a fairly esoteric concern 02:32:03 but why do you need current time to be so precise? 02:32:15 stassats`: For heartbeating and expiry. 02:32:16 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: hands-on therapeutic discipling] 02:32:18 i can see a need for relative time to be precise 02:32:23 Phoodus: "The difference between the values of two calls to this function is the amount of elapsed real time (i.e., clock time) between the two calls." 02:32:40 Well I don't know how to get relative precise time other than through subtraction. 02:32:51 Phoodus: clhs doesn't mention any rollover. 02:32:57 I will look at internal-time-units-per-second 02:33:22 internal time is for precise relative times 02:33:41 Okay, I will look at these function names and see if they suit - they probably will. 02:33:59 -!- Deathaholic [~Mococa@177.42.199.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:34:19 My wife is calling me for lunch (Australia), so I will idle now, thanks. 02:35:01 Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.199.53] has joined #lisp 02:35:06 what a kinky idea to fly to Australia to have a lunch! 02:35:10 Dose anybody read this site http://clhttp.typereview.com/show?3N. It is write by cl-http 02:35:21 So that's your excluse for being so slow: the lag? 02:35:21 pjb/pkhuong: but what is internal time backed with at the OS interaction layer? when will that roll over, and do common implementations detect rollover of that value? 02:35:21 lol :D 02:35:29 Is it write by cl-http? 02:35:35 Phoodus: that would be a bug. 02:35:49 Phoodus: that depends on the OS. But supposedly, a subsecond timebase. 02:35:53 (I know, 64-bit millisecond rollover would really aren't going to affect anything) 02:36:00 -bad grammar 02:36:05 Two even, a wallclock one and a process-relative one. 02:37:35 On old unices, it could use SIGALARM. On Linux there is a utime(2). 02:37:51 err, s/utime(2)/ 02:38:39 Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 02:39:22 -!- glidesurfer [~glidesurf@2002:4fcd:d463:0:230:5ff:fe37:7a8d] has quit [Quit: Bye.] 02:39:45 Phoodus: anyways, man 7 time 02:40:55 but i don't have time to read this! 02:41:11 stassats`: Phoodus asked for implementation details. 02:41:25 I already gave the lisp answer. 02:41:31 pjb: all's I'm saying is that OS time will most certainly be expressed via a fixed-size integer 02:41:49 so in theory, there will be some rollover somewhere, even if it's 10 million years out :) 02:42:03 So what? It's up to the implementation to ensure that correct bignums are returned. 02:42:22 right, I was just asking if that's a consideration they bother with 02:42:26 cbp [~Cesar@189.139.219.96] has joined #lisp 02:42:28 OMG YES 02:42:30 finally 02:42:41 ok, then they EMPHATICALLY do ;) 02:42:52 phoodus: And the OS can change the size of that integer. 02:43:03 Which is what unix systems do with time_t. 02:43:08 Phoodus: a 32-bit microsecond counter rolls over every 1.193 hours. 02:43:19 eria: what's mean? [09:46] 02:43:19 wislin: It means: "do you have anything interesting to report since 02:43:19 last time the two of you talked". 02:43:21 So, what's the problem? 02:43:30 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-70-144.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 02:43:41 Zhivago: no problem, just curious 02:43:52 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-70-144.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Client Quit] 02:44:02 wislin: Why are you repeating what I said to you? 02:45:33 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-150-156.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:45:35 emacs yanking fail? 02:45:35 ho.Make mistake to keybord. 02:45:57 -!- kanen [~kanen@c-98-234-85-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 02:46:01 Yes emacs yanking wrong. 02:46:07 Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.26.44] has joined #lisp 02:46:34 -!- lisp_forth [7a60cce4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.122.96.204.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:46:42 Hi all! 02:46:51 I want to lean cl-http. how about it? 02:46:57 Hello Bahman. 02:46:58 Bahman: hi! 02:47:08 wislin: why do you want to learn it/ 02:47:09 ? 02:47:15 wislin: get it with quickload. Read the doc, read the source. 02:47:35 Hi beach and stassats`! 02:48:08 Bahman: Still set on learning Scheme rather than CL? 02:48:22 stassats: Because I want write a site useing CL. 02:48:40 wislin: Why not use hunchentoot instead? 02:48:43 wislin: why do you think that cl-http is the way to accomplish such feat? 02:49:08 nobody is using cl-http here 02:49:24 ho. 02:50:06 It always reminds me of a dwarf with a flute. 02:50:37 I write a mail to David. 02:51:14 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A344E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:51:18 who's David? 02:51:59 the man write that site. 02:51:59 Heigh-ho, heigh-ho! On rentre du boulot! On pioche tic tac, tic tac, Dans la mine, le jour entier. Piocher tic tac, tic tac, Notre jeu préféré. Heigh-ho, heigh-ho! On rentre du boulot! 02:53:01 wislin: so, why are you announcing that? are you going to tell him that nobody is using cl-http so that he can pack up and go home? 02:53:18 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.162.114] has joined #lisp 02:53:32 :-) 02:53:34 beach: Yes. Sadly once again my free time got occupied and now neither CL or Scheme has a slot in my schedule :-S 02:54:19 But thanks for remembering and asking :-) 02:55:57 and even if you want to use cl-http, it has a stupid license, so you better stop even wanting to use it 02:56:48 and i don't think you can get it through quicklisp 02:57:01 stupid license? 02:57:23 Looking at the site, are you supposed to download a binary? 02:57:34 I am not read the license. 02:59:12 http://paste.lisp.org/display/117189 02:59:18 (the license) 02:59:39 thanks. 03:00:54 Yep, it's not the GPL, but one could abide by it. 03:01:17 But indeed, I don't think it qualifies as a free software license. 03:01:32 it qualifies as a joke 03:01:36 Wikipedia lists it as "proprietary" 03:01:46 stassats`: Be respectuous of the author's rights! 03:05:20 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl21-71-216.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 03:08:27 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:09:42 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@ip72-200-123-53.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:42 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@ip72-200-123-53.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Changing host] 03:09:42 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 03:09:45 cheezus [~Adium@69-196-141-102.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 03:10:07 Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 03:14:38 wislin: for CL web development, people don't use cl-http, they use hunchentoot 03:14:48 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-98-113-194-183.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:15:56 rukubites. Do you think about hunchentoot? 03:16:10 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-128-237.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:16:49 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-83.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 03:16:56 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-205-202.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:44 wislin: I use it, except I use franz's html-gen for the html generation. 03:18:06 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.82.71.216] has joined #lisp 03:18:16 wislin: hunchentoot is the 'defacto' standard for web servers for CL. 03:18:33 What ever happened to that web blocks project? 03:19:35 nothing? 03:19:38 Anyway, back to internal-times, zeromq and heartbeating. 03:21:45 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.199.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:22:23 Ok. I may try hunchentoot. 03:22:24 03:22:27 Excellent, get-internal-real-time is perfect for my task. It is even in milliseconds. 03:22:46 pjb: Thanks! 03:23:07 this is implementation dependent 03:23:12 Thanks, I know. 03:23:21 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:23:22 internal-time-units-per-second 03:23:29 hunchentoot only run with lispworks. 03:23:35 that is just wrong 03:23:40 that's total nonsense 03:24:01 that's false. 03:24:04 wislin, I think you need to learn common lisp before you start your project. 03:24:20 wislin: Start with emacs, sbcl, slime and quicklisp. And google. 03:25:01 and http://cliki.net 03:25:07 thanks. 03:25:21 google isn't helpful for learning lisp 03:25:22 Yes, I often google "cliki " 03:25:40 www.gigamonkeys.com/book 03:26:05 stassats`: why do you say so? Google for learning lisp gives interesting links. 03:26:20 pjb: like cl-http? 03:26:21 Does seibel still hang out here? He used to. 03:26:24 I have read this book 03:26:29 rukubites: yes 03:26:32 ike "Learning Lisp Fast" www.cs.gmu.edu/~sean/lisp/LispTutorial.html 03:26:39 google doesn't know what's good and what's bad 03:26:39 +l +http:// 03:26:52 Nobody knows, you have to taste it yourself. 03:27:07 but i know! 03:27:07 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 03:27:11 Yes. Much like poison. 03:27:29 at least you can taste it once 03:27:32 Zhivago: Still saying silly things? 03:27:45 Joreji_ [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 03:29:21 Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.199.53] has joined #lisp 03:29:27 Now, I am reading <> . This book is very big to read. 03:30:18 wislin, too much reading isn't really great. You need practical stuff, so start with emacs, sbcl, slime, quicklisp and cliki.net. Then get to work. 03:30:59 Anyone can read e.g. On Lisp. It is a good night time book. 03:31:22 You can start with shorter tutorials. 03:33:18 Now, I have not anything work to do, so only to reading. 03:33:26 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 03:33:36 Now, I have not anyth work to do, so only to reading. 03:33:48 Now, I have not any work to do, so only to reading. 03:33:54 bad emacs. 03:34:17 are you using some genetic algorithm to form your sentences? 03:34:18 #lisp is too distracting. Thanks for your help people. :-) 03:34:19 wislin: that's funny, because installing emacs and clisp or sbcl should take two minute on any linux distribution, Then installing quicklisp should take 30 seconds. 03:34:28 -!- rukubites [~user@d211-30-65-14.meb9.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:34:47 pjb: that's too much for a modern life 03:35:25 Currently nearly a quarter of the way through Land of Lisp... it's a great book, but I'm beginning to wonder if apart from the excellent educational value of learning this, what else am I going to get from it? That's not meant to be a trolling statement, just that Lisp is so different from what I've seen elsewhere, I'm not sure how much practical benefit it will give me :) 03:35:29 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:36:04 lol stassats` 03:36:31 MiggyX: for practical benefit, you should put it to practice. 03:36:46 MiggyX: you might want to read "Practical Common Lisp" to see how this is done. 03:36:50 minion: pcl 03:37:08 pjb: okay, I will get my hands on that book too :) 03:37:14 pjb: may I ask what you use it for? 03:37:18 MiggyX: or with some imagination, you may be able to put it in practice without reading theorical books, but with some practice. 03:37:31 MiggyX: I use Common Lisp for all my programming needs. 03:37:50 MiggyX: you can go to codesearch.google.com and look for lisp projects 03:37:58 and github.com can sort by projects to get some ideas 03:39:10 i use CL for everything 03:39:13 cool thanks. It's a really interesting language and I've learned a lot of things even this early in the game 03:40:18 MiggyX: It definitely is a different language. But so far, I've actually found learning and programming in it, well, fun. 03:40:19 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.199.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:40:34 I've also just started learning. 03:41:45 Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.199.53] has joined #lisp 03:41:47 Bacteria: oh it's definitely fun. I was jus wondering where it might lead. 03:42:08 I hope to eventually write a few games and apply it to my work. 03:42:10 Normally I'm stuck writing apps in C because of performance reasons - so I wanted to stretch my mind a little 03:42:17 Indeed. 03:42:32 MiggyX: have a look at the papers referenced at http://cliki.net/Performance 03:43:17 pjb: nice thank you! 03:43:57 MiggyX: you should learn different languages, of wildly differing styles, anyway. It expands your mental outlook of what you can do & expect of your tools 03:44:33 Start with visual basic and then move on to php. 03:44:36 MiggyX: depending on the domain, you may be able to exploit the strengths of CL and obtain performance in a different way than with C. 03:44:48 -!- jweiss [~user@cpe-069-134-063-238.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:45:03 Phoodus: agreed, but my background is in iterative languages so I wanted to branch out into something totally new to me 03:45:56 morphling_ [~stefan@gssn-5f75740a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:48:36 once you get used to throwing around lambdas, and harnessing macros properly, you get some really good 'ah, this is nice' moments that prevent you from going back to other languages ;) 03:49:03 Phoodus: I'd be more than happy for that to happen :) 03:49:06 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754970.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:49:12 I'm trying my best to come to lisp with an open mind 03:49:25 is it not possible to just load an xml file as data into lisp? 03:49:48 just a simple with-open-file 03:49:48 takes a bit of time between "I understand and can use the syntax/mechanics" to "I know when and why to use this" 03:50:07 akimbo: yes. (with-open-file (data "data.xml") (xmls:parse data)) 03:50:10 MiggyX: Have you ever attempted some of the programming problems on Project Euler? 03:50:19 ah 03:50:23 Bacteria: can't say that I have :) 03:50:31 http://projecteuler.net/index.php?section=problems 03:50:56 Basically, they are mathematical problems, with the concept of designing computer programs to solve them. 03:51:14 I've done a few of them in the past when I was learning C/C++ 03:51:25 Bacteria: nice thanks 03:51:37 It was enjoyable trying it with list. 03:51:44 *lisp 03:52:24 -!- splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:53:28 Bacteria: even for my current level I'm not sure I can't do these in lisp lol 03:53:52 Heheh. 03:54:53 Eataix [~eataix@27-33-177-73.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:55:07 drdo`` [~user@89.180.118.170] has joined #lisp 03:55:34 I would also love to find any language that could beat the latency performance of C 03:55:49 -!- cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:56:01 Assembly? 03:56:07 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.172.246.240] has joined #lisp 03:56:16 Bike: a nicer language :) 03:56:17 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:56:24 MiggyX: What kind of latency are we talking about here? 03:56:25 MiggyX: http://www.flownet.com/gat/papers/lisp-java.pdf 03:56:38 beach: sub microsecond 03:56:42 Bike: I find it easier to generate and interface with assembly in CL than in C, fwiw. 03:57:01 MiggyX: No, I mean, latency between what action and what result? 03:57:15 MiggyX: if you write a large, complex program, I'd expect a higher level language to give you better speed than a lower level one 03:57:41 if you're writing tight-loop calculations, I'd expect you could get C-level performance from CL with the proper type-constraining declarations 03:58:10 beach, from a new price coming off the network, to sending a buy/sell order back to the network 03:58:38 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:58:39 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-70-144.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 03:58:49 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-70-144.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has left #lisp 03:59:01 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:59:06 jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.32.231] has joined #lisp 03:59:08 MiggyX: from there, are you dealing with computationally complex strategies, or data-intensive strategies? 03:59:18 -!- foocraft [~ewanas@89.211.201.143] has quit [Quit: if you're going....to san. fran. cisco!!!] 03:59:21 MiggyX: I would suspect that this latency has nothing to do with the language or even implementation that you are using (unless you are using a *very* bad one). 03:59:26 *Phoodus* also supports day traders 03:59:30 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c711b3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 03:59:37 beach: you'd be surprised. 03:59:55 Phoodus: for this particular application, not really. it's mostly comparing a price to a theoretical price - that's it 04:00:02 but we need to do that and act on it quickly 04:00:22 obviously, even an unlucky GC is bad. 04:00:37 my concern is that as the app gets more complicated, more performance is lost due to poor human optimisation 04:00:40 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-83.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:00:48 don't rely on human optimization 04:00:59 or, constrain your human optimization to centralized tools that the other code relies on 04:01:11 then 1 optimization affects how all your code runs 04:01:39 Phoodus: I'm not convinced that when things start to get seriously multithreaded, C is always going to be faster 04:01:48 you'd be correct 04:02:11 again, as programs get complex, having a higher-level toolset will show its benefits in both runtime & developer speed 04:02:11 I honestly believe that functional languages (especally the strict ones) are going to make a serious comeback 04:02:18 c is as fast as you make it be 04:02:28 stassats`: yes that is the problem 04:02:44 stassats`: it assumes a certain level of low-level knowledge and understanding that not all that many programmers have 04:02:57 being able to write multithreaded code is not the same as being able to do it well 04:03:24 that can be said about anything 04:03:36 besides multithreaded is overrated 04:03:59 stassats`: yes it can, but it is more prominent in this case - at least for me :) 04:04:02 just put computers side by side and hit enter key simultaneously 04:04:40 akimbo: threads should be hidden behind application abstractions, instead of having to deal with their fiddly bits when working in app space 04:05:12 akimbo: one PS2 keyboard, fan-out keyboard connector 04:05:16 lol 04:06:37 MiggyX: http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u64q/performance.php?test=nbody 04:06:50 Lisp is wedged in between C and C++ 04:07:03 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.172.246.240] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:07:12 Performing an n-body simulation. 04:07:28 and of course Java beats C nowadays 04:07:33 much to the C'ers chagrin 04:07:40 Hahah 04:07:50 splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 04:07:51 Yeah, that's kinda scary. 04:08:02 the problem is when you are looking at latency rather than compute performance. 04:08:13 like how fast a system can actually respond to an event. 04:08:51 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.172.225.246] has joined #lisp 04:09:24 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:09:26 Ah yes. Definitely true. 04:09:44 Java simply has a higher level view of things than C, and can respond accordingly in an increasingly smarter way than what C is capable of 04:10:03 -!- Eataix [~eataix@27-33-177-73.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:10:07 if you're dealing with say a new price to buy a stock at. you already know what you're willing to pay 04:10:29 so the calculation is basically if (newPrice < ourBuyPrice) buyStock() 04:10:37 nothing complicated or intensive 04:10:42 can't you tell the market itself to do that? 04:11:33 you can place limit orders 04:15:46 Eataix [~eataix@27-33-177-73.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 04:18:02 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:18:44 what's the difference between that and a limit order? 04:19:15 Phoodus: limit orders have more risk 04:19:41 the scenario under which you want to place that order might change 04:19:49 and it's quite possible that it will change faster than you can pull your order 04:29:57 -!- Eataix [~eataix@27-33-177-73.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:33:39 hsaliak [~kailashs@cm229.kappa221.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 04:34:29 does anyone know where quicklisp stores library files by default? 04:39:54 ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software ? 04:43:44 -!- wislin [~user@220.166.9.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:44:36 wislin [~user@220.166.9.82] has joined #lisp 04:51:13 Bike: sweet thanks 04:52:05 -!- museun [~what@c-98-252-140-73.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:54:31 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.172.225.246] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:55:54 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.199.53] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:59:09 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.167.99.176] has joined #lisp 05:02:10 -!- hsaliak [~kailashs@cm229.kappa221.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:03:11 -!- zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:03:55 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc12-cdif12-2-0-cust276.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 05:04:07 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@99-27-205-152.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:04:16 evening 05:04:25 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.167.99.176] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 05:05:16 hello 05:06:09 o/ slyrus_ 05:06:26 Bacteria: did you get a chance to check out cl-bio? 05:06:32 I did! 05:06:39 cool 05:07:12 It looks good. I wrote a python script a while ago for a research project, I might merge it over to lisp when I get some time. 05:07:24 ok, thanks 05:08:35 Once, I'm a bit more competent, would you accept any code? I wrote a bunch of melting temperature calculation functions for DNA, they might be handy. 05:11:36 sure, I'd consider that. the other thing to do is just to publish the library (on, say, github) and have it depend on cl-bio and get xach to put it in quicklisp. 05:12:28 Ah yeah, I should create a github account. 05:22:29 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.178.198.28] has joined #lisp 05:24:44 -!- leyyer_su [~user@222.212.6.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:26:10 -!- cheezus [~Adium@69-196-141-102.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:31:48 -!- srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:32:31 AndroUser [~androirc@pool-108-38-79-155.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:36:20 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 05:37:32 -!- wislin [~user@220.166.9.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:42:30 collin [~collin@CPE002129ce62e2-CM0026f30ca5ed.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 05:46:50 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host closed the connection] 06:07:30 Bahman_ [~Bahman@2.146.26.44] has joined #lisp 06:07:40 -!- Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.26.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:10:24 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA23E91.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:12:44 Davsebamse [~davse@gate.ipvision.dk] has joined #lisp 06:13:12 -!- cbp [~Cesar@189.139.219.96] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:14:31 -!- mobydick [~textual@124-171-177-47.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 06:15:52 mrSpec [~Spec@89-72-74-11.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 06:15:52 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-72-74-11.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 06:15:52 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:18:47 hi all..is there a way for me to use a sbcl repl as my system shell instead of bash/zsh or something? 06:18:54 -!- collin is now known as rekahsoft 06:19:06 it's not reasonable 06:19:11 leyyer_s` [~user@222.210.203.232] has joined #lisp 06:20:09 Maybe you could look into scsh or something? 06:22:22 -!- leyyer_su [~user@222.212.6.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:29:49 yeah, you could set up some read macros 06:30:29 make them automatically call programs by default, have an 'escape' sequence eval out a result to be fed back in 06:31:17 not sure what you'd gain by a lisp shell unless you seriously amped up the string processing commands though 06:35:40 -!- benny [~benny@i577A2734.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:36:46 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@ip72-200-123-53.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:36:46 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@ip72-200-123-53.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Changing host] 06:36:46 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 06:39:14 rekahsoft: there's clisp clash (not that I know anything about it) 06:39:41 benny [~benny@i577A1460.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 06:42:44 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:44:42 -!- 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[~joachim@212.7.195.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:20:32 fe[nl]ix: aroundp 09:22:00 -!- spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-38-155.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 09:22:00 -!- H4ns [~H4ns@217.147.243.148] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:23:24 H4ns [~H4ns@217.147.243.148] has joined #lisp 09:23:35 nikodemus: why does syscall-error need the name? 09:24:17 oh ok additionally to ensuring the outer function's backtrace frame 09:25:49 tcr1: because sometimes you have handlers that unwind and resignal 09:26:17 i've seen bare syscall errors with no clue where they came from too many times 09:26:34 i'm actually tempted to add arguments there as well 09:27:08 yeah I've seen that too actually I think 09:27:51 similiar thing: it would be so nice if (assert (x y)) showed "Assert (FOO ) failed." 09:33:29 very true 09:34:17 i was going to look at handling-end-of-the-world today 09:34:27 do you have a nice test case for me? 09:35:31 no not realy, it happens in a for file in lots-of-files; do lisp.binary $file; done and then pressing control-c 09:35:48 ok 09:36:10 it's reproducible for me so I could test a patch. bonus point if the patch is LOADable 09:36:26 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-199-35.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:37:43 -!- MiggyX [~miggyx@119247168008.ctinets.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:37:55 can't really make a loadable one for that. well, maybe load + save-lisp-and-die 09:38:11 MiggyX [~miggyx@119247168008.ctinets.com] has joined #lisp 09:39:04 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-104-140.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:39:32 ok will have to build an sbcl then :-) 09:47:49 -!- splorgie [~textual@91.200.224.93] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:52:36 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053004166.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 09:52:37 -!- H4ns [~H4ns@217.147.243.148] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:55:14 -!- 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[~josesanto@bl19-212-19.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 10:13:25 lisp_forth [7a60cce4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.122.96.204.228] has joined #lisp 10:15:15 Hello 10:16:29 -!- Yuzu-_ is now known as Yuzu^ 10:18:13 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-152-135-21.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 10:18:58 lo Kenjin 10:19:13 did you solve your problem with ioforms ? 10:20:15 daniel__1 [~daniel@p5082960E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:20:56 -!- daniel___ [~daniel@p5B326AE7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:25:34 Guthur [~Guthur@host81-155-205-118.range81-155.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 10:27:20 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 10:27:40 homie: hi :) 10:28:22 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-185-93.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:28:29 homie: I don't know if you recall, but I managed to run xor, after running thz. In that order. 10:29:28 I've since updated SBCL and have not managed to get the cocoahelper correctly built 10:29:42 fantazo_ [~fantazo@178-191-162-210.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 10:30:39 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-162-55.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:32:47 -!- H4ns [~H4ns@217.147.243.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:34:49 topeak [~topeak@180.77.211.95] has joined #lisp 10:35:16 longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has joined #lisp 10:37:22 oudeis [~oudeis@di8-35151.dialin.huji.ac.il] has joined #lisp 10:38:30 -!- homie [~levent.gu@xdsl-78-35-139-201.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:39:55 homie [~levent.gu@xdsl-78-35-158-176.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:40:33 Xach: Are you around? 10:40:53 Hello 10:41:16 Hi 10:41:32 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 10:41:52 I've recently updated SBCL and am now unable to load lispbuilder-sdl on account of cocoahelper 10:42:16 Ok. 10:42:29 I hope you have learned your lesson: never update sbcl! 10:43:53 Kenjin pasted "cocoahelper" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122329 10:44:53 I was running 1.0.29 and updated to 1.0.44 10:45:54 The "make" on /cocoahelper previously worked 10:46:02 updated with what ? 10:46:08 git, cvs ? 10:46:55 Kenjin: what's the problem? 10:47:18 H4ns [~H4ns@217.147.243.148] has joined #lisp 10:48:19 Xach: I'm unable to load cocoahelper 10:48:49 homie: I installed with homebrew, according to the formula, from git://sbcl.boinkor.net/sbcl.git' 10:49:18 <_3b> are you sure it is the same architecture? (64 vs 32bit) 10:49:39 Kenjin: Why not? 10:49:43 Kenjin: what happens when you try? 10:49:46 http://groups.google.com/group/quicklisp/browse_thread/thread/d25c048674658efa/ 10:49:59 Xach: same problem in this thread 10:51:23 -!- H4ns [~H4ns@217.147.243.148] has quit [Client Quit] 10:51:24 _3b: not sure, no. 10:51:55 <_3b> Kenjin: works better to paste your actual results rather than pointing to someone else having a problem 10:52:32 <_3b> (unless you meant the "doesn't give useful answers to questions intended to help diagnose things" problem in the later posts) 10:53:21 Kenjin pasted "lispbuilder-sdl" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122330 10:53:30 <_3b> since if it is the /exact same/ problem, there is a solution there that worked... if that doesn't work, it isn't the same and without more details, nobody will figue out how :) 10:53:52 I have used that solution previously, and did work 10:54:14 Not since updating SBCL though 10:54:52 hello, everyone 10:55:13 *Xach* doesn't know what's up 10:56:17 <_3b> do you still have an old working sbcl around? 10:56:39 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@di8-35151.dialin.huji.ac.il] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:56:39 I've tried rebuilding cocoahelper and loading lispbuilder-sdl from a new image with no success 10:59:28 Kenjin: does clearing ~/.cache/common-lisp/ make any difference? 10:59:41 Xach: let me try 10:59:56 tfb [~tfb@92.41.69.184.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:01:50 Kenjin annotated #122330 "cleared cache" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122330#1 11:02:06 The ouput is a bit different 11:03:23 glidesurfer [~glidesurf@2002:4fcd:d463:0:230:5ff:fe37:7a8d] has joined #lisp 11:06:17 I thank you for your help. I'm going to try and get this working. I must go now. 11:06:46 m__h__ [~m@kwlan1.uoks.uj.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 11:06:58 -!- aperturefever [20164@ninthfloor.org] has quit [Quit: (.) \/ (.)] 11:10:04 Bye Kenjin :-) 11:12:34 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-212-19.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 11:12:44 -!- Yuzu^ [~yuzuchan@p5052-ipad406osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: I Quit] 11:14:03 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:17:50 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.67.199.173] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:18:18 cmm [~cmm@109.67.199.173] has joined #lisp 11:23:34 -!- lisp_forth [7a60cce4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.122.96.204.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:26:17 -!- rekahsoft [~collin@CPE002129ce62e2-CM0026f30ca5ed.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:27:53 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-174-096-202-029.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: statonjr] 11:31:10 -!- leyyer_s` [~user@222.210.203.232] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:32:09 Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@1807ds2-noe.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 11:32:52 leyyer_su [~user@222.210.203.232] has joined #lisp 11:33:34 -!- topeak [~topeak@180.77.211.95] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:35:54 rekahsoft [~collin@CPE002129ce62e2-CM0026f30ca5ed.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 11:36:41 -!- Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@1807ds2-noe.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:39:06 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-98-113-194-183.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:40:00 Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@1807ds2-noe.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 11:43:21 -!- freddie111 [~user@150.140.227.201] has left #lisp 11:45:26 -!- Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@1807ds2-noe.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:46:07 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-183-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:47:57 chiguire|m [~chiguire@190.39.219.179] has joined #lisp 11:47:57 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@190.39.219.179] has quit [Changing host] 11:47:57 chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 11:48:01 varjag [~eugene@162.163.9.46.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 11:48:19 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.132.218] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:50:16 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.132.218] has joined #lisp 11:54:39 -!- orivej [~orivej@host-31-152-66-217.spbmts.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:54:53 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.162.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:56:06 mobydick [~textual@124-171-177-47.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:57:42 bsod1 [~osa1@31.141.34.99] has joined #lisp 11:57:49 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-185-93.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 12:00:04 talin_ [~talin@fw.nteb.no] has joined #lisp 12:00:09 -!- talin_ [~talin@fw.nteb.no] has left #lisp 12:01:28 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 12:03:45 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-185-93.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:04 -!- MiggyX [~miggyx@119247168008.ctinets.com] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 12:04:46 MiggyX [~miggyx@119247168008.ctinets.com] has joined #lisp 12:06:00 -!- m__h__ [~m@kwlan1.uoks.uj.edu.pl] has quit [Quit: BRB] 12:07:40 -!- splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:11:27 -!- leyyer_su [~user@222.210.203.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:15:44 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@220-133-153-203.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 12:21:20 -!- TDT [~user@173-23-13-45.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:21:47 -!- bohanlon [~bohanlon@pool-108-20-68-105.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: I will be back later!] 12:25:40 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 12:27:19 drl [~lat@110.139.230.255] has joined #lisp 12:32:13 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.132.218] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:35:58 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.132.218] has joined #lisp 12:36:48 has anybody here used cl-mongo and have any comment about speed and usability ? 12:41:22 -!- glidesurfer [~glidesurf@2002:4fcd:d463:0:230:5ff:fe37:7a8d] has quit [Quit: Bye.] 12:42:22 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 12:42:49 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:44:10 rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 12:47:53 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.255] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:47:54 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.132.218] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:47:55 glidesurfer [~glidesurf@static-ip-62-75-247-238.inaddr.intergenia.de] has joined #lisp 12:48:10 leyyer_su [~user@222.210.203.232] has joined #lisp 12:48:23 HET2 [~diman@cpc12-cdif12-2-0-cust276.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 12:48:37 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.132.218] has joined #lisp 12:49:11 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.162.114] has joined #lisp 12:50:00 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-150-156.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:51:50 gozek [~quassel@56.165.216.87.static.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 12:55:13 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.162.114] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:55:30 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.162.114] has joined #lisp 12:57:17 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.162.114] has quit [Client Quit] 12:57:34 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.162.114] has joined #lisp 12:57:55 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 13:00:04 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.162.114] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:00:21 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.162.114] has joined #lisp 13:02:35 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.162.114] has quit [Client Quit] 13:02:57 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 13:03:14 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.162.114] has joined #lisp 13:04:08 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.162.114] has quit [Client Quit] 13:04:55 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@31.141.34.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:11:11 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.162.114] has joined #lisp 13:12:48 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 13:13:02 Odigem [~Odigem1@91.145.233.131] has joined #lisp 13:13:44 -!- Odigem [~Odigem1@91.145.233.131] has quit [Client Quit] 13:13:52 Night-hacks [~nullpoint@95.38.52.69] has joined #lisp 13:14:46 bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:17:00 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:17:59 -!- Night-hacks [~nullpoint@95.38.52.69] has left #lisp 13:29:29 -!- churib [~churib@95.156.194.105] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:31:14 Harag: I've been following the development on github, but haven't got round to using it 13:31:26 oudeis [~oudeis@2.52.191.123] has joined #lisp 13:31:38 thanx madnificent 13:32:10 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 13:32:28 well i am hell bent on giving it a good go today...my rbms is driving me nuts so I have to change to something more flexible 13:32:54 will see if I have time to slap together a blog entry as a go along today 13:33:04 ooh, that would be awesome 13:33:09 how's it working out so far? 13:33:12 -!- gozek [~quassel@56.165.216.87.static.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:33:55 churib [~churib@95.156.194.105] has joined #lisp 13:33:56 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.132.218] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:34:19 gozek [~quassel@56.165.216.87.static.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 13:35:01 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.132.218] has joined #lisp 13:38:58 -!- grncdr [~stephen@sdo.csc.UVic.CA] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:40:36 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc12-cdif12-2-0-cust276.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:40:50 pfft still installing mongodb 13:42:22 that doesn't count, it's not the lisp-side of things... 13:42:50 I thought configuring couchdb was fairly simple, so I'd be somewhat surprised if mongo was complicated to setup 13:43:53 -!- MiggyX [~miggyx@119247168008.ctinets.com] has quit [Quit: MiggyX] 13:46:06 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@2.52.191.123] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:46:19 -!- limetree [~simon@c-23e8e155.1226-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:47:29 -!- OliverUv [~gandhi@195.159.235.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:47:40 getting couch set up was beyond trivial. 13:48:41 loke [~elias@bb116-14-102-156.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 13:49:23 ok mongo is easy, download and run 13:49:28 OliverUv [~gandhi@195.159.235.178] has joined #lisp 13:49:47 now pizza first and then onto cl-mongo 13:50:32 -!- basho___ [~basho__@dslb-092-076-075-209.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:50:41 -!- EarlGray [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:51:09 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-221-135.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:51:14 SBCL reserves 8GB heap size by default, thus the heap size is limited to something like 8GB, but likely smaller. Would it be possible/feasible to raise that? 13:51:59 basho__ [~basho__@dslb-092-076-075-209.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:05 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.132.218] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:52:38 <|3b|> --dynamic-space-size ? 13:52:47 sorry, SBCL reserves 8GB virtual size, but that's an upper bound on the heap size, I think 13:53:08 |3b|: and SBCL can handle larger sizes? Or is there a reason why that would be bad? 13:53:20 by saying "default" you're implying that you already know how to change it using --dynamic-space-size. (Why) do you care about changing the _default_? 13:53:32 *|3b|* would expect it to work (on 64bit) fine 13:53:44 of course you can crank if up 13:53:56 <|3b|> it would be bad on my system because i don't have 8gb though :p 13:54:11 lichtblau: I don't know the inner workings, so I'm basically asking if I'll run into trouble when I raise it 13:54:23 no trouble is expected 13:54:28 awesome, thanks! 13:54:29 if you run into any, please report it 13:54:41 *loke* 's qurious what's the practical limit of the heap size (assuming enough RAM) 13:54:44 nikodemus: don't expect it to be soon 13:54:51 i.e. does the GC handle a 64 GB heap without choking? 13:55:29 it is safe to raise it on 64 bit, compared to the 32bit bit situation where raising it is likely to hit parts of the memory already in use 13:55:44 EarlGray [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has joined #lisp 13:56:16 -!- Landr [~user@78-22-144-87.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:56:54 lichtblau: then again, 32bit systems don't include support for 8GB ram 13:57:22 As for choking, the GC is happy with a large dynamic space as long as you have physical RAM to back it up. Just don't exceed RAM so that GC runs on swapspace (it's more walking than running then). 13:58:27 is there a way to see how much space an array of strings is taking up? (may be SBCL specific) 13:59:05 lichtblau: Thanks. 13:59:40 madnificent: no, indeed x86 can't give you a 8GB... 13:59:58 The question was about deviating from the default though, and x86 also has a default and the capability to raise it, and I think it's worth illustrating the difference in behaviour when you try to use most of your physical RAM for dynamic space. On 64 bit that actually works; on 32 bit you hit address space trouble earlier than you're actually out of RAM. 13:59:59 <|3b|> untyped array is probably a few words, + 1 word/element, each string is probably a few words + a few octets/character 14:00:32 <|3b|> where 'a few' might be 1-4 or so depending on implementation and character (sub_type 14:01:36 |3b|: I could try to estimate it by hand, but if SBCL would try to estimate it, then I'd have more confidence. OTOH, I could also just see how much free space there is and optimize on that, rather than expected size. 14:02:38 <|3b|> TIME should give you an estimate (rounded to a few k) of how much was allocated in the body, or use allocation profilers, or ROOM, etc 14:03:10 I was thinking of using ROOM, but TIME isn't a bad idea 14:03:35 -!- AndroUser [~androirc@pool-108-38-79-155.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:03:41 -!- longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:05:09 how many strings are in this array? 14:08:05 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:08:58 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 14:09:13 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 14:10:12 Has anyone had any recent(ish) experience with CLSQL-ORACLE? I've run into some weirdnesses with regards to result types in SELECT's. 14:10:41 Night-hacks [~nullpoint@95.38.52.69] has joined #lisp 14:11:53 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:12:43 bugQ [~bug@c-67-186-255-54.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:43 lisp_forth [7a60cce4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.122.96.204.228] has joined #lisp 14:15:48 urandom__ [~user@p548A66D5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:12 Hmm, I'm getting similar problem with CLSQL-POSTGRESQL, so if anyone has experience with that, I'd love to know. 14:18:40 describe the problem. 14:18:46 and/or paste 14:19:08 I have two tables, both of which (among other things) contains a column of type NUMERIC. When I seelct from one, the numeric value always comes out as a string, but when I select from the other, it comes out as a proper numeric value 14:19:55 are these fields related? 14:20:00 is there a join? 14:20:04 Based on the \d output from postgres, both columns are of type NUMERIC 14:20:06 Nope 14:20:10 none. Completely separate 14:20:49 -!- gozek [~quassel@56.165.216.87.static.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:21:25 Oooh 14:21:28 wait a sec 14:22:34 Never mind. I just figured it out. If the content of a NUMERIC column is an integer (no decimals) then CLSQL will interpret that as a string 14:23:04 that's just bizarre, especially given that the object/relational mapping will map the CL type NUMBER to the SQL tyoe NUMERIC 14:23:28 i suggest you ask the appropriate dev list. 14:23:35 yeah, I guess I should 14:24:00 are you specifying the :types explicitly? 14:24:20 lichtblau: I tried that. Nothing I ever put there seems to make any difference 14:24:34 that said, I only tried it for the numeric columns 14:26:54 -!- lisp_forth [7a60cce4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.122.96.204.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:27:35 -!- Night-hacks [~nullpoint@95.38.52.69] has left #lisp 14:27:40 oudeis [~oudeis@2.52.191.123] has joined #lisp 14:28:45 foocraft [~ewanas@89.211.152.135] has joined #lisp 14:28:45 macrocat [~marmalade@99.192.96.30] has joined #lisp 14:29:49 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:39:07 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@2.52.191.123] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:40:34 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C7DDD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:43:25 loke: hmm. too bad; that sometimes helped for me back when I was still using clsql, but the typing stuff is backend-dependent IIRC, and I wasn't using those backends. 14:43:52 tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:46:32 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 14:48:21 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 14:48:36 lichtblau: I see 14:48:40 lichtblau: so what are you using now? 14:49:31 I'm currently using hu.dwim.rdbms for postgres and oracle. It's limited in the sense that those are the only backends (besides sqlite) which it has, but since I only need those two platforms it's been working out for me. 14:49:48 lichtblau: that would be fine for me 14:50:04 In fact, those are exactly the two backends I need :-) 14:50:20 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 14:51:16 -!- leyyer_su [~user@222.210.203.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:51:54 Yuzu- [~yuzuchan@p5052-ipad406osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:52:27 -!- churib [~churib@95.156.194.105] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:53:20 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.67.199.173] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:53:53 cmm [~cmm@109.67.199.173] has joined #lisp 14:55:03 bsod1 [~osa1@31.141.36.171] has joined #lisp 14:55:04 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.162.114] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:58:46 cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:59:10 cbp [~Cesar@189.139.219.96] has joined #lisp 14:59:39 carlocci [~nes@93.37.202.161] has joined #lisp 15:00:57 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:01:09 -!- jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.32.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:01:31 lichtblau: OK, testing it now. And I can say that after just a few minutes f testing, I like this one a lot better. 15:02:30 loke: downlading and building is the main challenge for hu.dwim, but once you've got it the stuff mostly works. 15:02:49 lichtblau: well, I just quickloaded it and it worked right out of the box in Postgres for me 15:03:00 I'll try Oracle when I get back to the office on monday 15:03:58 churib [~churib@95.156.194.105] has joined #lisp 15:04:07 *attila_lendvai* is happy to hear that setting up some of the dwim stuff is not a major headache anymore for newcomers 15:04:26 attila_lendvai: :-) 15:04:49 loke: OK. I think we still have a few oracle changes which aren't in the official darcs yet. If you're running into any issues, please ask and we'll see what we can do (i.e., whether your fork has the fix. :-)) 15:04:50 attila_lendvai: I'm browsing the source and I see things I'm not used to seeing in CL... What's #f for example? Looks like scheme to me. 15:04:59 (incf quicklisp) 15:05:07 chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 15:05:18 (incf quicklisp) 15:05:32 fade: It's thanks to QL I actually recently decided to actually do stuff in Lisp (instead of toying round as I had been for the last 15 or so years) 15:05:54 loke: just a thin reader macro that reads into NIL, to avoid the distortion of the intention of the programmer 15:06:07 I've been using lisp in anger for a few years before QL came around, but QL definitely improved my quality of life. 15:06:12 attila_lendvai: I see. 15:06:14 perhaps a script which installs the more common lisps on your system (as the authors intended, but in /opt or somewhere like that) would be handy as well. 15:06:58 One of the things that actually annoyed me with CLSQL was its reader macro (square brackets used for all sorts of magic). Glad to see that not being imposed on me with dwim. 15:07:00 yeah, QL is a great help for CL admin stuff 15:07:13 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:07:46 All I need is the ECL/Android project to become functional and I'll be a happy camper :-) 15:08:06 Well, a CL that compiles to JS would be kinda awesome too (like GWT but for Lisp 15:08:09 -!- Salamander__ is now known as Salamander 15:08:44 hu.dwim.rdbms was so much more better with the sql generation stuff moved to hu.dwim.quasi-quote (and cleaned up)... but it will never enforce any reader macro stuff, that should always be only a thin layer, a syntax sugar 15:08:46 (I'm actually surprised t hear myself saying that, given that I'm probably one of the biggest Java fans out there) 15:08:58 I had an interesting problem trying to build ECL from cvs yesterday. when it got to bootstrapping with ecl_mini, the process ate all the memory on my machine, drove the load up to 25 (six cpu box), and I had to kill it. 15:09:08 <|3b|> parenscript is slowly converging towards CL 15:09:10 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:09:37 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 15:09:46 loke: quasi-quote has a cl->js "compiler" (it's more like an sexp js with macros) and there's parenscript, too 15:10:17 attila_lendvai: nice, thanks. I'll play around with it 15:10:22 a GWT implementation in CL would be straight forward. parenscript is the major component. 15:10:34 <|3b|> i think there is a more full CL->js as well, can never remember the name though :/ 15:10:37 I found the CL "extensions" in hu.dwim scary at first, and then there was the point where I found myself joyfully typing (def (class* e) ...) and started to embrace it. 15:10:57 Fade: arguably Lisp maps better to JS than Java as well, so theoretically it should be doable. 15:11:10 the hungarian CL notation caused me to shy away from the dwim stuff, I admit 15:11:16 |3b|: not cl->js, but cl->java. linj 15:11:23 lichtblau: heh, I'd be careful about admitting that in public... :) 15:11:29 <|3b|> nikodemus: no, a different one 15:11:45 then there's cl-javascript 15:12:27 lichtblau: nevertheless I'm happy to hear that! 15:12:33 not cl->js, but js->cl 15:12:38 I find the dwim code a bit bizarre too, and I doubt I'll use the (def ...) stuff. But, as far as I can see, no one is imposing that on me just for using it so I don't mind :-) 15:13:23 Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:14:01 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A552.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:04 -!- fantazo_ [~fantazo@178-191-162-210.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:14:16 OK, reading parenscript tutorial. Woah. It was neater than I thought. I'll try it and let's hope it delivers :-) 15:14:51 *|3b|* is a fan of ps + slime for web dev :) 15:15:18 |3b|: Let's hope I will be too 15:15:27 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:15:36 I truly despise Javascript, and that's one of the reasons I'm a big GWT fan. 15:15:48 *madnificent* somewhat dislikes parenscript, doesn't hat javascript 15:16:02 the most surprising thing about javascript for me was that I didn't hate it once I learned it. 15:16:03 madnificent: what makes you dislike PS? 15:16:05 s/hat/hate/ 15:16:13 I do wish it was just left as a scheme dialect, though. 15:16:22 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:16:23 Fade: I've come to know it decent enough, but I still hate it :-) 15:16:28 i'm forever screwing up punctuation when I have to deal with it 15:16:32 -!- cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:17:05 Well, we now have a generation of programmers whose first exposure to programming was JS 15:17:08 <|3b|> ah, found it... http://sourceforge.net/projects/acheron/ is the other cl->js i was thinking of 15:17:15 whether that's a good thing or not remains to be seen 15:17:32 loke: the fact that the library has changed over time and it doesn't really integrate lisp with javascript. It does it's best and it's nice, but it's simply not as good as lisp itself... perhaps I find it easier to accept that in a language with an algol-like syntax than when I'm coding lisp. Also, it's not easy to see where your bug is, as you need to translate back 15:18:01 when I went to find learning sources for js, i was kind of surprised that the majority of the books available were of the "for dummies in 24 hours in a nutshell!" type. 15:18:01 madnificent: Oh, I see 15:18:03 <|3b|> also not quite full CL, but i think a different subset from ps 15:18:16 i don't think it bodes well for this generation of 'programmers' 15:18:21 loke: still, it's worth checking out! 15:18:28 madnificent: I can see how that can be a problem. Such as when debugging GWT code without hosted mode available. 15:18:47 Fade, probably would improve if JS moves more out of browsers 15:19:08 loke: also, I'm not a repetable source on this. It's wise to listen to more prominent users 15:19:17 Fade: I have some hope though. My first exposure was C64 BASIC, which arguably teaches worse style than JS :-) 15:19:32 heh 15:20:03 |3b|: acheron looks interesting as well. Guess I should give it a spin sometime 15:20:05 now that I think about it. c64 Basic was terrible. Inexusably bad, in fact 15:20:22 <|3b|> oh yeah, now i remember what was wrong with acheron... it is written in java :/ 15:20:23 there's also parenscript-classic 15:20:36 *|3b|* never actually beyond that problem :p 15:21:09 acheron.jar ?! whot? 15:21:20 |3b|: what the crap 15:21:36 why would one do that? 15:22:19 hi 15:22:20 *|3b|* doesn't know why people implement lisp in non-lisp languages past a minimal runtime 15:22:22 |3b|: now we need a java->lisp readable code translator in order to make some use of acheron 15:22:44 well, perhaps it was written with ABCL in mind. 15:22:47 Hmm 15:22:53 acheron is quite limited 15:22:53 please how can I create an array like #( #(0 0) #(1 1) #(2 2) ... #(n n)). Thanks 15:23:42 <|3b|> (make-array (list 2 n) :initial contents (loop for i below n collect (list i i)))? 15:24:05 <|3b|> oops, that's 2d array, not array of arrays 15:24:29 <|3b|> (coerce (loop for i below n collect (vector i i)) 'vector)? 15:25:14 vector? 15:25:23 vectors are arrays 15:25:27 I need a n x 2 vector 15:25:34 <|3b|> and i guess the dimensions were swapped in the 2d array anyway 15:25:37 |3b|: if the vector is large, wouldn't that be pretty inefficient? 15:25:55 Posterdati: are you looking for a multidimensional array, or a vector of vectors? 15:25:56 <|3b|> loke: maybe 15:26:14 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:26:30 *|3b|* was optimizing for not-thinking and fitting-in-one-line, not speed 15:26:41 nikodemus: no an array with 2 element array element 15:26:44 |3b|: the most efficient way I can think of would be to make the vector, then LOOP and (SETF AREF). But, I feels ugly. Is it really the best way? 15:26:55 s/I/it/ 15:27:02 <|3b|> that or map-into would be the first things i tries 15:27:08 so a vector of vectors 15:27:26 #( 15:27:27 #(0d0 560d0) 15:27:27 #(20d0 590d0) 15:27:27 #(40d0 670d0) 15:27:27 #(60d0 750d0)) 15:27:27 <|3b|> assuming coerce or initial-contents was demonstrated to be too slow by profiling 15:27:35 I need to read those value form file 15:27:46 I need to read those values from a file 15:27:58 <|3b|> a file that looks like that? 15:28:11 yes I could read it with-open-file 15:28:21 and store it in a var 15:28:29 |3b|: well yeah. I've thought about the implications a few times, but then again, I never actually had to initialise such huge arrays that it could conceivably be a problem. 15:28:37 now I need to save the same creating it from two separated array 15:28:51 <|3b|> loke: i'd give the compiler a chance to be smart about it before worrying about it 15:29:33 <|3b|> (map 'vector 'vector array1 array2)? 15:29:35 so like pairlis, but with vectors 15:30:16 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c711b3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:12 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:32:12 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-174-096-202-029.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:34:04 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:34:33 chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 15:34:54 -!- bugQ [~bug@c-67-186-255-54.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:35:29 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-174-096-202-029.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 15:36:03 Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:36:10 pnkfelix [~Adium@pool-108-7-207-210.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:41 splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 15:39:46 morning 15:41:41 hello splittist 15:44:13 -!- milanj [~milanj_@79-101-138-223.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:45:20 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-176-90.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:46:25 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:49:42 Hun` [~hun@95-90-10-28-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 15:49:55 So (defun vectorseq (&rest seqs) (apply (function map) (function vector) (function vector) seqs)) 15:50:01 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@pool-108-7-207-210.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:50:03 morning 15:50:45 pnkfelix [~Adium@pool-108-7-207-210.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:51:03 hi slyrus_ 15:51:19 lo all 15:53:20 pnkfelix1 [~Adium@pool-108-7-207-210.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:00 -!- pnkfelix1 [~Adium@pool-108-7-207-210.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:54:06 pnkfelix1 [~Adium@pool-108-7-207-210.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:08 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@pool-108-7-207-210.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:55:02 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-109-16.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:11 -!- chp [~chp@2001:da8:a000:155:5eff:35ff:fe0c:c3ef] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:58:39 Hi. 15:58:48 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 16:01:59 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@91-115-30-241.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 16:06:03 -!- mobydick [~textual@124-171-177-47.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:11:53 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:16:23 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C16FD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:17:25 madnificent: cl-mongo seeems to work fine and is faster than I expected...only scratching the surface at the moment but so far it looks promising 16:20:32 pnq [~nick@AC8135A2.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 16:20:54 Harag: I currently use bknr.datastore which is obviously faster, but cl-mongo is easier to share. 16:21:18 Harag: if you can post anything about reading/writing/mapping speed, that'd be fun as an indication 16:21:28 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C16FD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:21:56 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has left #lisp 16:24:38 mongodb could potentially make a very interesting backend for elephant 16:24:49 *rsynnott* might try doing that when less busy 16:25:29 Cassandra might also work; more of a drop-in replacement for BDB really 16:25:41 there should be something like migrations for it. Combine that with a lisp object model and it may be something practically usable. 16:26:11 rsynnott: are you a project committer on elephant? 16:26:37 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@91-115-30-241.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has left #lisp 16:27:15 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@99-27-205-152.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:27:19 Fade: no] 16:27:41 I modified it in a past job, but those changes never became public 16:28:05 and wouldn't have been too interesting; they were just to tie it into a semi-clever caching system 16:28:14 there was some problem getting it into quicklisp because no interraction with the project could be established. 16:28:30 I was wondering if it was still vital. 16:28:34 as in, alive. 16:29:18 (web pages broken into elements, when an element was being generated a cache dependency graph was produced, when a modification was made in elephant to a dependent the relevant cache was wiped) 16:29:33 Fade: not sure; this was all a couple of years ago 16:29:38 and it was pretty vital at the time 16:30:08 yeah, the first time I played with elephant it was pretty active. 16:30:24 quite a nice system, though I don't think either postgres or bdb are good backends for it 16:30:56 why? 16:31:03 well, in the case of postgres 16:31:05 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 16:31:06 (BDB is non-networked and has an awkward license; postgres is not well-adapted to its data module and it doesn't take advantage of postgres's object-relational features) 16:31:17 sorry, relational 16:31:39 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-174-096-202-029.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:31:54 I can cseee cassandra working nicely, though transactions would have to be provided and managed separately 16:32:52 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:33:27 well, might be a nice project if I ever get the time for it :) 16:33:53 :) 16:34:10 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@99-27-205-152.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:25 ar there any cl bindings for cassandra? 16:34:32 *are 16:35:02 |3b|: it would work, but x and y are clem:double-float matrix (n x 1) 16:35:43 |3b|: I have to write a macro to catch the x and y type 16:35:57 ah, de.setf.cassandra 16:36:49 barryfm [~barryfm@fl-67-232-197-141.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 16:37:29 madnificent: how easy is it to do grouby's,sum,max and joins in bknr.datastore if at all? 16:38:32 chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 16:39:04 -!- pnkfelix1 [~Adium@pool-108-7-207-210.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:39:18 pnkfelix [~Adium@pool-108-7-207-210.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:29 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-174-096-202-029.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: statonjr] 16:40:31 Harag: you build your own data structures. I don't remember the exact syntax, but it should be trivial. Sum would be something like, as you can simply (reduce #'+ (all-widgets) :key #'teh-number) 16:41:21 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@99-27-205-152.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:41:39 Harag: it's mostly based on: all your objects are in memory. And they really are just lisp-objects with classes and such. 16:42:12 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:42:19 madnificent: aaah the all in memory approach 16:43:02 it runs quite nicely. factory.homelinux.org uses it on bad/old hardware and it seems to keep running 16:43:08 more practical for a lot of stuff these days, what with modern memory capacities 16:43:25 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 16:43:32 *rsynnott* knows someone doing a postgrad project with a 256GB RAM machine 16:43:40 rsynnott: epic 16:43:41 moore's law is an amazing thing 16:44:01 in-memory representation of the full twitter connections graph, or something 16:45:01 well my servers are virtual and memory is the exspensive part 16:45:39 the simple reasoning capabilities of SQL are nice though. I like to use triggers and such, these things don't exist in bknr.datastore. SQL also makes it easier to add connections imo. Besides all that, I have more trust in getting my data out of sql if everything breaks down. I also feel more confident in updating the model in SQL. 16:45:41 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C16FD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:46:24 i would love to use something pure lisp (preferably a associative db) 16:46:34 Harag: it's still fair, blogworks (as running there) is taking 32M 16:46:36 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 16:46:42 the db that I have is just going to grow way to big for memory 16:47:03 Harag: rucksack is pure lisp 16:47:12 you might also be interested in Relational Objects for Lisp. 16:47:44 Fade: i have not looked at rucksack 16:47:49 yet 16:48:09 everybody I know who has used it seems to like it a lot. 16:48:27 Harag: what will the database be used for? 16:49:29 rsynnott: think of everything that goes into a SAP system and then think of it being "time sensitive" 16:49:43 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-174-096-202-029.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:50:53 pnkfelix1 [~Adium@pool-108-7-207-210.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:05 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@pool-108-7-207-210.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:56:47 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:56:48 milanj [~milanj_@79-101-138-223.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 16:57:11 -!- yan_ [~yan@srtd.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:57:13 -!- y3llow [~y3llow@111-240-168-61.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:58:14 agumonkey [agumonkey@141.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:19 yan_ [~yan@srtd.org] has joined #lisp 17:00:12 -!- pnq [~nick@AC8135A2.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:00:23 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.178.198.28] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:02:43 y3llow [~y3llow@111-240-168-61.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:55 -!- albino [~albino@69.12.222.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:06:44 albino [~albino@69.12.222.214] has joined #lisp 17:07:17 -!- anon [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:07:59 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C16FD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:09:44 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.38.102.252] has joined #lisp 17:10:23 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.178.198.28] has joined #lisp 17:12:43 Fade: it does not seem like rucksack has much going on in terms of growth and support.... 17:13:21 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.38.102.252] has quit [Client Quit] 17:19:59 I think it got to the point where it just worked for the people developing it. 17:23:07 there is a couple of things left in the todo list 17:25:06 the main one on the list for me is the "query language" 17:25:24 the query language for rucksack is common lisp. 17:27:24 Blogs on ORMs: http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2006/06/object-relational-mapping-is-the-vietnam-of-computer-science.html and http://blogs.tedneward.com/2006/06/26/The+Vietnam+Of+Computer+Science.aspx 17:27:34 V. timely 17:27:45 Kneferilis [5d6d8465@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.109.132.101] has joined #lisp 17:28:08 pnq [~nick@ACA26458.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 17:28:46 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-221-135.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:29:24 Fade: yeah, very powerfull and flexible and it takes years to learn how to use it properly...lol 17:29:39 -!- Kneferilis [5d6d8465@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.109.132.101] has left #lisp 17:30:32 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:30:34 bugQ [~bug@c-67-186-255-54.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:03 I guess you could write some reader syntax to invoke sql-like macrology, but to me the best feature of rucksack is that it's lisp all the way down. 17:32:19 are you going to be exposing the secretarial pool to your persistence layer? :) 17:32:47 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@91-115-30-241.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 17:33:44 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 17:34:40 lol 17:34:56 gozek [~quassel@56.165.216.87.static.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:35:17 no but some of my junior devs and webdevs could fall in that pool 17:36:02 salva_oz [~kvirc@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 17:36:05 well, I just brought a bunch of java dev's up to the point where they can grok the scansion of a common lisp program. it took a couple of weeks. 17:36:21 some of them are even producing reasonable code. 17:36:27 one of them even thanked me. :) 17:36:34 kewl 17:37:23 "shut up. you're being paid to learn this and ultimately it will be good for you." is a pretty effective lever. :D 17:37:44 well i have forced all the devs in my company to use lisp over the last 3 months but it is slow going since I am not terribly good at lisp either, I have a long way to go 17:38:14 'course I own half the company and even there it took me three years to cultivate and sell enough projects to keep a lisp dev group busy, so i dunno. mileage varies, I guess. 17:38:24 Harag: Sounds pretty hardcore, be interested in your experiences/observations. 17:38:37 hi worlds, im trying use uri-template and when load it i ge an "There is no readtable named :uri-template.uri-template." 17:38:37 some idea how this can be solved? thanks 17:39:02 Fade: lisp is the one thing that keeps my company floating and growing exponencially 17:39:15 Harag: What kind of software are you in? 17:39:16 Modius: as away 17:39:20 ask 17:39:24 SaaS 17:39:33 software as a service 17:39:34 we just sold our first really big lisp project; i'm pretty happy about it. 17:39:40 Harag: Well, people must have been a bit unhappy. 17:39:46 Harag: SaaS in what field 17:39:50 that helps a lot to take the tech descisions away from the client 17:40:17 EricAhn [~EricAhn@121.138.70.61] has joined #lisp 17:40:20 SaaS in what ever nich markets I can crack 17:40:22 i'm hoping to put some dev bucks into a few different lisp projects. 17:40:47 we have a "cash cow" in a app that helps mines comply to statitury stuff 17:42:07 Modius: i employed all new people so they started life in lisp, trying to convert "old" hands to lisp just cost me in staff turnover 17:42:26 my devs are all out of varsity 17:42:40 Harag: Varsity - (terminology) - high school? 17:42:41 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-174-096-202-029.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: statonjr] 17:42:54 Harag: You canned all the old people? 17:42:57 college/university 17:43:06 they canned themselves 17:43:15 That's why I was asking - it'd be a hard sell 17:43:29 they left quitely after they realised they could not make the transition 17:43:32 Modius: I've seen the same thing. the dogs that didn't want to learn new tricks just left, but ultimately it made our dev team much stronger. 17:43:41 Quite frankly, I've found it impossible really to sell actual C#3 use, and that's in a C#-based microsoft enterprise shop - let alone lisp. 17:44:30 Modius: to be honest, if it was not my own company I dont think I could have pulled it off 17:44:54 and the company is still in start-up mode so flexibility is key 17:45:17 makes sense 17:45:25 Harag: What city? 17:45:30 I started a company so I could express my own technical bias' 17:45:33 Johannesburg 17:45:38 Wow 17:45:45 lol @ Fade 17:46:03 i think i did the same actually 17:46:08 I'd like to start something; but it takes more than knowing a bit of programming to find that niche. 17:46:20 I am starting a side thing but it's iPhoneDev 17:46:45 (The partner's strong in that; no way he'd have any part of any s**t like you're doing though) 17:46:47 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-99-173-27-219.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:35 Modius: port a lisp to the iphone, then get them to use that 17:47:39 My dayjob's enterprise. I hope in *your* SaaS you get bogged down in technical challenges, not data/support grek. 17:47:47 Harag: ECL I couldn't even get working. 17:48:15 Harag: Too much mismatch ultimately - you'd still have to tihnk-in-iPhone-ObjC as the bulk of the work is putting up UIs, not algorithm work. 17:48:24 Modius: i get bogged down plenty but thats life 17:48:51 My dayjob/enterprise is bogged down almost entirely now in chasing down bad data, with Sox levels of efficiency. 17:49:04 tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:49:11 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:49:44 Modius: bad data is one thing, getting the data out of the client is even worse 17:51:12 Harag: On DBs, I'd suggest looking at PostModern, the Postgres sql interface. What's interesting is the lispish/s-expression form of SQL - I reimplemented my own in a similar fashion. You can have lisp create SQL at a comibination of compile/runtime, and still get the advantages of lispishness. 17:52:09 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.41.69.184.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:52:38 The links I put here are of the vein: "ORM, you have to commit very heavily before finding out you've gone too far down the wrong path". 17:52:48 Modius: I am using postgresql/postmodern 17:52:58 Harag: Haha, one step ahead of me then :) 17:53:05 but the rdbms db design is not working for me any more 17:53:56 i need an associative solution so the db "design" is more flexible that is why I ended up testing mongodb today 17:54:28 Harag: did you also look at clouchdb on top of couch? 17:54:45 now if some one bent s-sql to work with rucksack imagine the possibilities 17:55:07 *|3b|* ended up with redis for non-sql db stuff, don't remember what i didn't like about mongo 17:55:16 relational objects for lisp is kind of like that 17:55:31 Fade: I looked at couchdb aswell but from all my reading mongodb seems a better fit to what I want to achieve 17:55:44 'course, you still end up with the rdbms in the back 17:56:16 Harag: I'd be interested in your comparison of the two. 17:56:35 *|3b|* wonders how usable planks is 17:56:49 drewc is using it in a production project 17:56:58 but drewc wrote it. :) 17:57:12 <|3b|> drewc know how it works and how to add the bits needed for /his/ production projects :) 17:57:26 yeah. that's pretty much the state of drew's stuff. 17:57:32 "it works really well for drew." 17:57:43 everybody else gets months of tearing it apart to figure it out. 17:58:19 I got to the point of being useful /w LoL and ultimately I liked it. 17:58:24 the ramp-up was somewhat painful 17:58:50 inasmuch as what would have been fighting through the docs turned into a long stream of me asking drew dumb questions. 17:59:13 Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:59:27 Fade: i used this comparison http://kkovacs.eu/cassandra-vs-mongodb-vs-couchdb-vs-redis 17:59:39 thanks 18:00:52 what I liked about couch was how easily it could be 'clusterized' 18:01:08 also, I understand erlang much better than I understand C++ 18:01:56 i dont want to have to understand erlang or c or c++ or .... 18:02:14 yeah, well, in a perfect world... 18:02:16 *|3b|* kept wanting to do things where as far as i could tell i'd have to just pull over a big chunk of the DB and query it myself, when i looked at couch 18:02:20 -!- pnkfelix1 [~Adium@pool-108-7-207-210.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:02:41 in this one, however, I find it very useful to grok the implementation language of a major piece of the architecture. :) 18:03:01 |3b|: its that quering it myself bit that I am fussy on 18:03:17 pnkfelix [~Adium@pool-108-7-207-210.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:28 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:03:28 -!- beach [~user@116.118.8.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:03:40 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-99-173-27-219.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:04:27 i think its my "vb 3" background that is the problem, i still think looping through more than 10 rows is going to be to slow compared to a DB done right 18:04:59 that's likely not true when you're in a CL environment. 18:04:59 gz_ [~gz@209-6-49-85.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 18:05:23 one of the interesting things about postgres is that you can write triggers in CL or any other language for that matter. 18:05:29 yeah but i will have to sit down and write some stuff to prove that to myself 18:05:41 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:05:59 Harag: you jumped right from VB to Common Lisp? 18:06:15 i dont want triggers and i dont want stored procs or db functions its just a maintinance nightmare 18:06:29 I agree with that. 18:06:35 Fade: no vb-c# and then lisp 18:07:07 so you drank deeply from the MSFT kool-aid jug, then something serious happened. 18:07:17 but i have many years of vb and C# to unlearn (break those pescky thought patterns) 18:07:26 -!- gz_ is now known as gz 18:08:00 and before vb it was rpg and cobol 18:08:06 Harag: ideally, when dealing with databases, it is always best to test your assumptions 18:08:11 eish I am getting long in the tooth 18:08:48 rsynnott: yes that is true 18:08:53 libertas [~lupe@89.181.6.63] has joined #lisp 18:09:09 HET2 [~diman@cpc12-cdif12-2-0-cust276.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:11:32 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-49-85.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 18:12:00 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-185-93.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 18:15:19 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@pool-108-7-207-210.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:15:52 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 18:16:02 Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:17:15 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:17:39 bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:29 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@91-115-30-241.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 18:18:32 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 18:18:58 tricus [~tricus@h69-130-142-158.cncrtn.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:37 setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:22:41 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-213-143.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:23:01 rsynnott: point in case...iterating over 10k records in cl-mongo ...Computation took: 18:23:03 0.367 seconds of real time 18:23:05 0.36 seconds of run time 18:26:05 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:28:53 I have bordeaux-timers on my hd but can't find it anywhere online - is it still maintained? Or did something take its place? 18:30:02 Modius: http://common-lisp.net/project/bordeaux-threads/ 18:30:52 I meant bordeaux-threads - was timers rolled into it? 18:30:55 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-213-143.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:35:11 jmbr [~jmbr@115.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:36:58 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.38.102.252] has joined #lisp 18:36:59 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.38.102.252] has quit [Client Quit] 18:37:55 gz [~gz@209-6-49-85.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 18:37:58 Modius: no 18:41:56 are any of you using abcl for anything non trivial? 18:43:09 Yuzu-_ [~yuzuchan@p5052-ipad406osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:43:21 -!- Yuzu- [~yuzuchan@p5052-ipad406osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:45:10 -!- Yuzu-_ is now known as Yuzu- 18:45:30 -!- Yuzu- is now known as Yuzu^ 18:46:41 -!- cbp [~Cesar@189.139.219.96] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:46:55 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:53:35 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 18:53:35 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 18:53:35 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 18:53:36 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-185-93.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:56 -!- tricus [~tricus@h69-130-142-158.cncrtn.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:56:59 arunkn [~user@122.167.102.155] has joined #lisp 18:57:05 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@cpe-66-75-114-13.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:57:09 Night-Hacks [~amir@95.38.52.69] has joined #lisp 18:58:07 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.67.199.173] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:58:20 -!- macrocat [~marmalade@99.192.96.30] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:59:12 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-67-199-173.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:00 *p_l|backup* wouldn't mind triggers, stored procedures and similar if he had a DSL for them and a way to push it nicely from repo 19:08:12 Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #lisp 19:11:14 -!- Yuzu^ is now known as Yuzu-Zzz 19:11:43 seangrove [~user@c-98-234-243-26.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:05 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.178.198.28] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:14:53 -!- Night-Hacks [~amir@95.38.52.69] has left #lisp 19:17:51 -!- arunkn [~user@122.167.102.155] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:19:01 Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:21:05 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 19:24:19 bindrinkin [~bindrinki@80.70.22.170] has joined #lisp 19:25:01 flip214 [~marek@h081217084238.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 19:25:01 -!- flip214 [~marek@h081217084238.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Changing host] 19:25:01 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 19:27:48 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:30:13 -!- akimbo [~akimbo@cpe-024-163-093-204.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:30:24 Shamiq [~Adium@c-71-197-146-85.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:55 -!- foocraft [~ewanas@89.211.152.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:31:06 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:31:47 foocraft [~ewanas@178.152.80.141] has joined #lisp 19:33:24 cbp [~Cesar@189.139.219.96] has joined #lisp 19:34:45 rednum [~bizon@62-121-72-31.home.aster.pl] has joined #lisp 19:39:02 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-49-85.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: gz] 19:41:39 -!- gozek [~quassel@56.165.216.87.static.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:45:46 -!- Harag [~phil@dsl-242-247-123.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:46:12 galdor: merged, thanks! 19:46:33 now it needs tests, though 19:47:29 -!- La0fer [~Laofers1@64.120.233.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:53:41 -!- trigen [~MSX@ec2-46-51-179-218.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:58:37 -!- PissedNu1lock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:58:54 PissedNu1lock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 19:59:23 -!- foocraft [~ewanas@178.152.80.141] has quit [Quit: if you're going....to san. fran. cisco!!!] 19:59:39 -!- bindrinkin [~bindrinki@80.70.22.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:59:49 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C0D31.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:00:13 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc12-cdif12-2-0-cust276.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:07:14 trigen` [~MSX@ec2-46-51-179-218.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 20:08:03 -!- Katibe [~Katibe@212.174.109.55] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:08:08 Harag [~phil@dsl-242-247-123.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:18:43 lanthan__ [~ze@p54B7C5D5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:56 -!- lanthan_ [~ze@p54B7C1FA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:23:55 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@31.141.36.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:28:52 Jasko [~tjasko@cpe-66-75-114-13.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:29:38 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-101-101.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 20:29:41 -!- trigen` [~MSX@ec2-46-51-179-218.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:29:52 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-101-101.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Client Quit] 20:30:55 george` [~user@184-77-70-234.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:39 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 20:31:49 hi, I'm starting work on a website and I'm interested in using cl-prevalence, it hasn't seen updates in a little while and I'm just curious if there's a more current fork or if a different package might have taken its reins? 20:33:58 -!- bugQ [~bug@c-67-186-255-54.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:37:15 -!- libertas [~lupe@89.181.6.63] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:37:49 pnkfelix [~Adium@pool-108-7-207-210.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:46 george`: there are a lot of things that do something similar 20:39:51 I didn't see one in the recommended list at cliki so I've been looking around 20:40:27 What are you trying to use it for? 20:40:44 a reddit-type site 20:41:06 cl-prevalence? Reddit? Not sure if I'd recommend that 20:41:20 well, depends on how much traffic you want 20:41:24 the scale of the site will be much smaller, it's for a niche interest 20:41:54 george`: postmodern and postgresql work pretty nicely. 20:42:29 thanks, those are on my short list too 20:43:17 (otoh, cl-prevalence always bugged me somehow...) 20:43:41 how so? 20:43:51 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-174-096-202-029.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:45:47 george`: memory-only database with disk log, and then XML thrown on top of that :) 20:45:56 trigen` [~MSX@ec2-46-51-179-218.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 20:46:14 I don't have much against the memory db + log design, but coupled with XML etc. it bugged me 20:46:14 I think s-expr might be available instead of xml now 20:46:23 well, how about elephant and periodically storing the data? 20:46:38 that's at least binary, which sounds much faster and smaller 20:47:03 there's also bknr 20:47:09 flip214: my current project might use DETS and ETS, or maybe Mnesia, for datastorage. But that's for the non-lisp design :) 20:47:10 and plank 20:47:30 (tokyocabinet might be used if I go for CL) 20:48:49 Did somebody use/test manardb? 20:52:54 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@99-27-205-152.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:19 has anyone used planks, I'm not finding much other than its repo + no documentation 21:00:30 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:04:03 been testing cl-mongo db tonight and it rocks on smaller (10 000 docs) data sets ... i am still deciding if the map reduce functionality is fast enough for big sets (million docs or so) so far I get a sum of 1mil docs in 59168 milisecs which feels slow 21:05:41 Remember to use COMPILE-FILE before trying to optimize anything... 21:06:44 -!- barryfm [~barryfm@fl-67-232-197-141.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:07:28 -!- george` [~user@184-77-70-234.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:11:02 Say I have a use-package :foo that's interfering with a symbol from somewhere else - can I still use use-package after some shadowing step, or do I have to avoid using use-package? What's the corerct thing to do here? (The situation happens to be hunchentoot::remote-port and shutdown interfering with CCL symbols) 21:11:28 Modius: "yes" 21:11:40 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:11:57 What's the cleanest thing to do here, to import *most* of hunchentoot's symbols but not import these two? 21:12:55 (defpackage :yours (:use :cl hunchentoot) (:shadow #:one #:two)) 21:12:59 <|3b|> you imported the CCL symbols intentionally? 21:13:25 I did not import them intentionally - I assume they're in the core CL in CCL 21:13:41 -!- agumonkey [agumonkey@141.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:13:48 Yeah, they're core CCL symbols 21:13:52 <|3b|> no, CL is exactly CL 21:14:13 <|3b|> cl-user is random junk, which is why you stay out of cl-user for real work, and only :use :cl in your packages 21:14:44 Modius: did you elide your :use clause from defpackage, and call (use-package :hunchentoot) separately? 21:14:47 My defpackage isn't using cl-user 21:15:13 if you leave (:use ...) out, implementations are allowed to default the wierdest shit 21:15:16 nikodemus: Yes, I have the defpackage and using use hunchentoot 21:15:38 -!- EarlGray [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:16:07 EarlGray [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:13 lisppaste your defpackage 21:17:06 http://pastebin.com/UBm128bq 21:17:11 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:18:14 ok, so you're using _lots_ of packages. some of those must re-export those ccl symbols 21:20:12 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 21:20:34 chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 21:21:36 nikodemus: Is there a strategy to track that down? The symbols conflicting are (from symbol-package) in common-lisp-user - does a lib have to explicitly :use common-lisp-user to have this happen? Does using automatically export? 21:21:58 <|3b|> cl-user doesn't export anything 21:22:08 just add (:shadowing-import-from :hunchentoot #:whatever) 21:22:25 <|3b|> so :use cl-user is pointless 21:23:21 not just pointless, /wrong/ 21:23:26 cl-user is for the user 21:23:31 <|3b|> that too :) 21:23:33 for repl work, etc 21:23:46 -!- varjag [~eugene@162.163.9.46.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:24:37 <|3b|> hopefully one of those libs intentionally imported ccl:remote-port and then exported it as part of its own API... if not, it probably overwrote system functions and broke things somewhere :/ 21:25:18 -!- Shamiq [~Adium@c-71-197-146-85.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:25:54 <|3b|> you might try C-c I 'ccl:remote-port in slime and see if it lists it being external to any of those packages 21:25:55 if you want to find out which of those packages re-exports the CCL symbols, see eg. do-external-symbols 21:27:59 <|3b|> hmm, i guess slime inspector only lists 1 package, so that won't help :( 21:31:01 *|3b|* wonders what makes sbcl DESCRIBE think something "names an undefined variable" 21:31:30 Maybe I'm not doing this right. If I mention Hunchentoot only in the defpackage, and don't use a use-package iin the source file, it's messing up. 21:31:31 M-. will tell you! 21:32:07 <|3b|> nikodemus: yeah, was trying that :) 21:32:12 Modius: lesson #14987: never mix defpackage and use-package 21:32:23 nikodemus: Yeah. I think I know what went wrong. . . 21:33:17 specifically: executing a defpackage form is allowed to eg. remove exports and un-use packages that are not in the defpackage form 21:33:33 but it's not required to 21:33:44 or it might do both 21:34:40 Shamiq [~Adium@c-71-197-146-85.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:02 muhdick [~qle@99-14-26-190.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:09 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 21:44:11 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 21:46:39 Thanks all - that got me past the problem (there were a few silly things being done) 21:47:12 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 21:54:51 *nikodemus* wants read-macro-expansion in slime 21:57:05 If someone has a minute to spare: Is this acceptable or would you change something? http://paste.lisp.org/display/122344 21:57:26 -!- salva_oz [~kvirc@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:58:08 -!- basho__ [~basho__@dslb-092-076-075-209.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:59:19 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:00:50 glidesurfer: ran that code on my mac  time result was 22:00:51 Real time: 28.046602 sec. 22:00:51 Run time: 27.784315 sec. 22:01:33 that p4 must be >>> core2duo... 22:03:22 cat /proc/cpuinfo >> Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 1.80GHz 22:03:53 Shamiq: How much CPU Power does your mac have? 22:04:16 Processor Name: Intel Core 2 Duo 22:04:16 Processor Speed: 2.93 GHz 22:04:20 o.O 22:04:27 yup. 22:04:44 *_3b* would compare implementation and word size before cpu speed 22:05:02 ports compiled clisp... 22:05:15 14.744 seconds of real time 22:05:16 9.550000 seconds of total run time 22:05:43 nikodemus` [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 22:06:02 [rosario@gs-parabola lisp]$ sbcl --version 22:06:02 model name : Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 1.80GHz 22:06:05 hups 22:06:10 SBCL 1.0.48 22:06:30 I used a compiled version though. 22:07:44 -!- nikodemus` [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 22:07:59 It doesn't matter. 22:08:32 3.927 seconds of real time 22:08:36 3.913079 seconds of total run time 22:09:28 <_3b> yeah, compiled-by-default or not is another important variable 22:09:40 <_3b> (sbcl does, clisp doesn't) 22:09:54 Shamiq said it was compiled, though. 22:10:22 I'll give clisp a try. 22:11:16 *_3b* interpretd that as saying the clisp was compiled by ports 22:12:35 I guess. 22:14:41 clisp: 50 seconds non-compiled, 9 seconds compiled 22:15:43 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@pool-108-7-207-210.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:15:50 Bike: "ports complied" referring to clsip itself 22:15:56 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:15:58 That makes more sense, then. 22:17:16 Is it worth optimizing this? (50 sec. non-compiled are OK for my machine but I expected a Core2Duo to be faster) 22:18:11 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-115-225.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:18:12 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@188-23-236-246.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 22:18:16 Are you expecting to use it for anything but what I'm guessing is Project Euler? 22:18:33 Oh, doy, that's Collatz. 22:19:11 Yes, it is. 22:19:43 Sorry for my bad naming. 22:20:00 -!- milanj [~milanj_@79-101-138-223.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:20:46 Oh, can't you cache (seqlen max) to avoid recomputing it? 22:20:53 -!- muhdick [~qle@99-14-26-190.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:21:04 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@188-23-236-246.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Client Quit] 22:21:27 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@188-23-236-246.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 22:21:56 Bike: I could but I guess it's not worth it, it's just a gethash in the end. 22:22:42 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@188-23-236-246.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Client Quit] 22:23:00 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@188-23-236-246.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 22:23:04 you're not using that memoisation table right. 22:23:57 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@188-23-236-246.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Client Quit] 22:24:19 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@188-23-236-246.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 22:24:20 There's probably a lot of reuse that you're not exploiting. If you start with a recursive definition of seqlen, the opportunities for memoisation will be much more obvious. 22:25:18 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@188-23-236-246.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has left #lisp 22:27:46 I've thought of a recursive version as well. Since I'm not a well-educated computer scientist yet: Is there a general rule about speed and memory consumption of recursive and iterative functions? 22:28:25 no. 22:28:42 Watch the SICP lectures he does both conceptual "recursion" and "iteration" via a function calling itself, in a language that boils recursion down to iteration anyway. 22:29:17 (Well, in TCO case) 22:30:01 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-150-156.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:38 bugQ [~bug@c-67-186-255-54.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:44 konr [~user@187.106.20.119] has joined #lisp 22:31:52 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@cpe-66-75-114-13.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:31:53 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:34:01 La0fer [~Laofers1@64.120.233.114] has joined #lisp 22:35:42 pkhuong: I ripped your numeric= out of string-case along with its defknown and define-vop. I'm sure i'm _really_ missing the point... but if i then inline my (renamed) %numeric= in a separate file I get compiler warnings about overwriting old fun info. Is this to be expected? 22:36:33 mon_key: why don't you paste a snippet? 22:36:38 Sure. 22:42:35 -!- Shamiq [~Adium@c-71-197-146-85.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:43:44 -!- Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:44:59 Is (and (cdr x)) an idiom I'm not understanding? 22:46:22 mon_key pasted "overwriting old FUN-INFO restart" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122345 22:46:55 Bike: likely just an artefact from earlier code 22:47:37 Probably, but why? AND and/or CDR used to have different behavior? 22:48:20 Bike: no. the AND used to have more stuff in it. 22:48:29 mon_key: don't declare it inline. 22:48:32 Oh. 22:49:19 pkhuong: OK lemme try again. 22:49:22 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C0D31.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:49:38 mon_key: also, reloading the file containing the defknown will warn. You can ignore it. 22:50:35 pkhuong: its the warning thats an annoyance mostly but i wanted to make sure i'm not really altering the fabric of the universe and what not. 22:51:53 Oh, you are. 22:52:33 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483A552.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:52:37 yeah. I figure thats where all my missing dryer socks wind up (: 22:55:36 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@host81-155-205-118.range81-155.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:06:59 pkhuong: I might be missing something but this recursive version so horribly slow... http://paste.lisp.org/display/122344#1 23:07:07 +is 23:09:13 glidesurfer: (setf hash ...) is only setting the variable, not the value in the hash table. 23:09:51 Oh, thanks. 23:10:08 -!- homie [~levent.gu@xdsl-78-35-158-176.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:10:29 Still wondering why it's not as slow as a version without a hash table... 23:11:27 homie [~levent.gu@xdsl-78-35-176-121.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:13:56 beach [~user@116.118.6.161] has joined #lisp 23:14:07 Good morning everyone! 23:14:10 In SBCL the iterative version is a litte bit faster. 23:14:46 You can likely get a 2-5x speed up still with some microoptimisations 23:15:14 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:16:23 Nevertheless, I find the recursive version more elegant. 23:16:27 asking for speed optimisation, declaring types in the right place, hoisting special variable lookup out of loops, maybe move function definitions to either local scope or even inline some, consider an array instead of a hash table 23:16:57 avoid the spurious (seqlen max) call in the search loop. 23:17:13 already done 23:18:02 I'll play a bit with it. 23:22:50 pkhuong: I don't think its the inline (or at least not just). I get the overwritiong old FUN-INFO restart if I delete old fasls from ~/.cache/big-long-path-to-fasl/char-numeric.fasl before the next ql:quickload 23:23:53 that would do it. 23:24:02 but you don't want to inline. 23:25:05 Ok. the inline is gone. Out of curiousity why does zapping the fasl trigger the restart? 23:25:52 it recompiles the file. 23:26:49 wich then causes the compiler to overwrite something in core? 23:27:06 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 23:29:22 just reloading the fasl will re-execute that defknown 23:29:29 and that overwrites the old one. 23:30:08 -!- rednum [~bizon@62-121-72-31.home.aster.pl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:31:29 I think what i'm asking is what is it (if anything) about the goo in sb-c:fun-info that is different from other goo? 23:32:22 I don't understand the question. 23:34:48 Sorry. None of the other fasls i zap in ~/.cache/.../*.fasl trigger a similar restart. So I assume that the one i am seeing w/r/t numeric= has to do with the sb-c:fun-info structure. I'm curious about its interaction with numeric=. 23:35:50 no, it's just that it expands into a function call that errors when it's called multiple times with the same name. 23:35:52 slyrus__ [~chatzilla@adsl-108-80-231-224.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:09 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@99-27-205-152.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:36:20 -!- slyrus__ is now known as slyrus 23:38:00 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@99-27-205-152.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:39:43 nikodemus` [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 23:45:02 pkhuong: Ok. I was missing the expansion around %defknown. Thanks for helping me to better understand what I was seeing. 23:50:32 -!- Hun` [~hun@95-90-10-28-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:53:05 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 23:53:32 pkhuong: Can you give me some intuition of the reason that different languages/implementations would behave very differently with respect to request latency (c.f. discussion the other day)? 23:54:39 they're down to sub-ms latencies, and the worst case is just as important as the average/common case. 23:55:21 OK, but what part of the implementation influences this latency and how? 23:55:28 non-concurrent GC hurts. So can an IO library that's not tuned to their needs. 23:55:42 Sure, that I can see. 23:55:50 Are we talking about distributed/parallel/concurrent lisp by chance 23:56:12 Quadrescence: no, the specialised needs of algorithmic trading programs. 23:56:26 Aw man :( 23:56:28 Quadrescence: Not necessarily. It was just a general remark by someone who is looking for a "language with better latency than C". 23:57:25 sellout- [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:29 I'm planning on building a cluster computer and was wondering if lisp world work well for distributed computation 23:58:22 Quadrescence: depends on the computation. I've had good experience, but then again, I could have made my design work with anything. 23:59:10 It worked for that Connection Machine thing. 23:59:18 pkhuong: What does it depend on more specifically?