00:01:37 wetnosed_ [~kai@f052100032.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 00:02:05 -!- wetnosed_ [~kai@f052100032.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:03:00 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 00:03:00 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 00:03:00 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 00:03:01 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.209.120] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:03:24 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.209.120] has joined #lisp 00:03:49 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:04:19 -!- wetnosed [~kai@e179003124.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:04:55 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:08:04 -!- minion [~minion@tiger.common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:08:23 PuffTheMagic [~PuffTheMa@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has joined #lisp 00:09:06 -!- lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:09:12 lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 00:10:18 -!- Fah [~Fah@paranoia.neverlight.com] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 00:10:50 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-131-92.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:11:02 -!- tvaalen [~r@67.217.170.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:12:28 tvaalen [~r@67.217.170.35] has joined #lisp 00:12:47 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-185-93.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:17 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 00:13:38 dnolen [~davidnole@pool-68-161-105-106.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:27 cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 00:17:01 ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 00:19:18 nixfreak_ [~Aaron.Mei@mailserver.dayport.com] has joined #lisp 00:19:49 Would I be crazy to try to create an os using just lisp ? 00:21:08 no. 00:21:16 Well, it's been done, a few times. 00:21:48 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.2.133] has joined #lisp 00:22:03 -!- luke__ [~luke@2.103.109.213] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:22:23 just thought it would be a cool project to get into 00:22:34 It would. 00:22:47 nixfreak_: you may start with movitz, which is a CL implementation running on bare x86 hardware. 00:23:30 ok 00:23:33 looking at it now 00:25:29 Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@209.195.112.60] has joined #lisp 00:27:01 nixfreak_: You might also check out the web pages written by nyef and myself: http://www.lisphacker.com/projects/sbcl-os/project-map/ and http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/Lisp-projects/. 00:27:48 thx beach 00:27:49 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-176-232.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:28:00 No problem. 00:28:29 nixfreak_: finally, you may consider that each CL implementation is actually a virtual machine, so you may start writing an operating system right away, without even considereing the low level complexities of drivers, interrupts, memory management, etc. 00:28:35 -!- xpf [~xpf@78.31.74.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:32:53 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:32:54 That is pretty much the view on my site. I favor a top-down approach where all the high-level parts can be written without thinking about device drivers and such. 00:33:12 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:34:03 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:28 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:31 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:34:38 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:47 Indeed. For example, there's a lot of work to be done in the domain of user interface for capability based OS. 00:35:15 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.209.120] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:35:25 Sounds right. 00:35:25 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.209.120] has joined #lisp 00:37:52 But the hardest part in writing a new OS, is to forget unix. Have a look at: http://acko.net/blog/on-termkit 00:43:32 yummy 00:43:46 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 00:44:25 Certainly shows some insight on the part of the author. 00:45:05 ridip [~user@24-217-106-24.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:45:10 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:45:55 beach: The only problem is that you'd need to rewrite all the os commands, which is ok when you start a new lisp os. 00:46:31 ok so this guy is really thinking or RDA apps 00:46:58 Suggestions on a library for reading binary files? I see binary-types, cl-binary-file, and monkeylib-binay-data in quicklisp. 00:46:58 which is what pyjamas, air, and others are trying to do 00:47:39 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.209.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:48:50 ridip: try them out, see which works better in your case. 00:49:43 or write your ooowwwn 00:50:24 because we need four versions of everything 00:50:41 but seriously depending on the format it might be easier 00:51:25 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.221.149] has joined #lisp 00:51:52 That was my actual concern, that DIY might be easier. 00:52:23 If you cat a source code file, it gets printed with line numbers and syntax highlighting. 00:52:50 Thats pretty cool concept for an OS with a GUI 00:53:19 If it's Unix philosophy, shouldn't you have to pipe it through a displayer to do that? 00:53:41 ridip: I come up with custom file formats all the time 00:53:58 nope just the mime type 00:54:01 ridip: at least for projects where no one's telling me that XML is the alpha and omega 00:54:37 he uses lots of web language like webkit , json, html, css 00:55:01 The view pipes carry the display output and interaction to the front-end. Widgets and UI commands are streamed back and forth as JSON messages over the view pipes. 00:55:12 But what if you wanted to pipe it to something else that will break if weird color characters and line numbers are inserted? I think I'm misunderstanding. 00:55:30 Bike: it goes further. The problem is that to be pipe-friendly, unix command use semi-formal unstructured text formats, therefore they all have to serialize and deserialize data objects, and this comes with no meta information. 00:55:41 so if you cat a png file the png pops up 00:55:42 this all reminds me of inferno, how nostalgic <3 00:56:14 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.232.62] has joined #lisp 00:56:23 sellout- [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:56:33 but lets say you cat a text file then it would pop up with syntax highlighting like an editor 00:56:35 Bike: the alternative is instead of using printf and getline and parsing, you'd write objects and read objects (eg. CL:PRINT and CL:READ, but it's not 100% of the objects), so you may better know what to do with them. 00:56:45 I know Unix is crap about it. But... so cat would only display like that if it was final output, right? 00:57:03 cat -n 00:57:06 yeah 00:57:15 yes, it's up to the "client" end of the pipe to interpret the mime 00:57:16 The problem is cat -n /dev/dsp 00:57:18 So you need a special option to actually pipe it? 00:57:25 The problem is cat -n /dev/sound/input 00:57:31 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.221.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:57:31 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 00:57:38 In this case, you want a sound object, and a play button. 00:58:01 you could bring up a widget to do that I suppose 00:58:15 cat ~/src/lisp/images/lisp-programmers.jpg # in this case you want a picture. 00:58:15 no, the problem is tagging the device 00:58:22 Well, the display thing makes more sense, I suppose. It would be the shell interpreting the MIMe? 00:58:33 ya 00:58:41 bugQ: cat /var/run/random.pipe 00:58:50 heheh 00:58:55 Okay. 00:59:27 it's similar to what they've done in MS-Winwdows logs, where they log objects, with attributes and methods to display and filter. 00:59:32 instead of bare text lines. 00:59:38 -!- kpreid_ [~kpreid@nat/google/x-wfctjqbuiewlpmdw] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:00:02 In any case, the problem is that stdin/stdout/stderr are defined as text file. 01:00:13 In a new OS they could be defined as object files (data+methods). 01:00:23 The data pipes correspond to the classical Std pipes, with one difference: the stream is prefixed with MIME-like headers (Content-Type, Content-Length, etc). Of these, only the 'Content-Type' is required. It allows programs to know what kind of input they're receiving, and handle it graciously without sniffing. Aside from that, the data on the pipe is a raw binary stream. 01:00:27 Of course, hw.c wouldn't be so simple. 01:00:29 they do using mime types 01:00:56 yeah, doing devices properly would likely take a lot of jury rigging or a kernel ext. 01:01:09 (defun hw () (os:write (make-instance 'text :lines '("Hello World!")) os:stdout)) 01:01:33 kpreid [~kpreid@nat/google/x-pjdqwjurwwwyobig] has joined #lisp 01:01:38 nixfreak_: well, termkit runs on unix, so they implement kludges to deal with legacy commands. 01:01:51 But we're speaking about a new design for a new lisp os. 01:01:51 ahh ok 01:02:09 which you really could incorporate this in it 01:02:25 but thats talking about widgets 01:02:27 oh yes if you're redoing the kernel then it's simple 01:02:56 bugQ: The kernel would include code such as: (defmethod kernel:read ((driver sound-driver) port) (os:receive (make-instance 'sound-buffer :samples current-samples) port)) 01:03:05 Instead of sending back a bunch of bytes. 01:03:19 is there a kernel lib then ? 01:03:27 wouldn't you have to create that yourself ? 01:03:38 So that a (with-open-file (snd "/dev/sound/input") (os:read snd)) --> # 01:03:53 nixfreak_: yes, everything is to be rewritten. 01:04:17 so basically were talking about a top level api call to the kernel 01:04:36 Yes. 01:04:38 xpf [~xpf@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 01:05:01 If the application receives objects from the kernel, then the kernel (and drivers) must return objects from the syscalls. 01:05:47 yeah I for sure need to look how to design a kernel first of all 01:06:30 nixfreak_: have a look at http://www.eros-os.org 01:06:40 kleppari_ [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 01:07:28 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:07:49 nixfreak_: also http://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/hurd.html 01:08:21 -!- xristos [~x@2001:4968:200:0:20c:29ff:fe47:788] has left #lisp 01:08:42 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:09:25 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@nat/google/x-pjdqwjurwwwyobig] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:09:48 nixfreak_: of course read about the lisp machines OS. 01:09:55 yeah I have been looking at hurd for awhile 01:10:04 there using L4 now I thnk 01:10:37 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:11:32 alright later guys thanks for all the awesome info 01:11:34 and also OS/400. 01:11:39 -!- kruhft [~burton@S0106002401f331bd.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:11:47 -!- nixfreak_ [~Aaron.Mei@mailserver.dayport.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:12:00 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc12-cdif12-2-0-cust276.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:12:30 HET2 [~diman@cpc12-cdif12-2-0-cust276.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 01:13:52 *p_l|backup* just loves "unauthorized" embedded developement 01:14:21 p_l|backup: in what sense?\ 01:14:54 -!- sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:14:54 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:15:00 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:16:23 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:20:39 madnificent: modding phone software 01:20:58 especially when there's no proper bootloader access 01:21:31 (currently reflashing a borked OS) 01:22:15 I even managed to nearly break SIM card slot, causing complete disassembly a necessity 01:24:58 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 01:27:23 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:36 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h139n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 01:32:47 p_l|backup: LoL 01:34:23 ridip: I obviously like the monkeylib binary-data lib. I can say that someone else (slyrus) has actually had success using it. 01:34:33 And it modereately well documented as there's a chapter in PCL about it. 01:36:02 mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-076-182-089-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:36:32 ridip` [~user@24-217-106-24.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:36:52 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: AWWWAAAAYYYY] 01:36:58 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:37:14 -!- ridip` [~user@24-217-106-24.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 01:37:30 -!- ridip [~user@24-217-106-24.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:38:54 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:40:10 -!- glidesurfer [~glidesurf@77-64-171-36.dynamic.primacom.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:42:22 madnificent: ... I did a complete wipe 3 times now 01:42:47 it doesn't help that my brother apparently damaged microUSB socket on the phone 01:44:12 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c711b3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 01:46:35 *madnificent* mumbles something about palm and heads to bed 01:46:49 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.232.62] has joined #lisp 01:46:49 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.232.62] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:46:51 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 01:49:56 -!- bugQ [~bug@c-67-186-255-54.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:50:17 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@96.31.242.194] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 01:51:28 cbp [~Cesar@189.139.219.96] has joined #lisp 01:53:26 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.244.150] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 01:53:41 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:55:03 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:00:10 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-185-93.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 02:05:11 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:06:10 -!- elliottcable is now known as ec|detached 02:06:50 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:08:29 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 02:10:56 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 02:11:11 sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has joined #lisp 02:11:16 -!- ec|detached is now known as elliottcable 02:14:43 -!- madsenz [~madsenz@n11z181l194.static.ctm.net] has left #lisp 02:15:32 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:15:49 beach: thanks for the links to the project pages. I'll see what I can add on the TCP/IP side. How much interest would there be in OSPF and/or BGP implementations? I'm looking at doing these anyway, just to get a better understanding of how those protocols work. 02:19:52 -!- Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@209.195.112.60] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:20:17 binghe [~binghe@114.113.197.131] has joined #lisp 02:26:06 Transformer [~Transform@ool-4a59e397.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:28:20 -!- cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:28:36 jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has joined #lisp 02:29:21 -!- Transformer [~Transform@ool-4a59e397.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:33:05 -!- jweiss [~user@cpe-069-134-063-238.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:33:14 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 02:33:58 doc_who [~doc_who@pool-108-18-142-175.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:41:48 -!- ubii [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:42:20 _joey [~joey@120.19.125.194] has joined #lisp 02:42:33 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@pool-68-161-105-106.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 02:43:41 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:45:20 jfleming: there seem to be at least one person interested in OSPF and/or BGP... 02:45:52 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 02:47:26 topeak [~topeak@123.114.127.238] has joined #lisp 02:47:44 -!- topeak [~topeak@123.114.127.238] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:48:08 topeak [~topeak@123.114.127.238] has joined #lisp 02:49:50 ubii [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has joined #lisp 02:55:49 -!- sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:58:52 is there anything in sbcl that'd show me what references exist to a given object? 02:59:56 (debuggin ref cycles) 02:59:58 rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 03:01:19 cycles? We have a real GC. Anyway, you have sb-vm::map-allocated-objects, and I believe the dwim people have posted an utility that does just that on sbcl-devel last month. 03:04:36 -!- cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:04:47 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-otfmuaiflvkljbho] has joined #lisp 03:04:47 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-otfmuaiflvkljbho] has quit [Changing host] 03:04:47 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 03:05:08 pkhuong: cycles as in "something somewhere holds onto things and I need to find out what" 03:05:25 and thanks, lemme look that up 03:06:19 pjb: there's me, obviously. I mean from anybody else :P 03:06:37 -!- binghe [~binghe@114.113.197.131] has left #lisp 03:07:19 The underlying question being whether I carry on beyond the point of "it works" towards production-quality code, and competition for the likes of Vyatta. 03:07:38 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA36C6C.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:07:56 pnq [~nick@ACA36C6C.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 03:10:08 Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.18.135] has joined #lisp 03:10:59 -!- splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:11:18 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439986.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:17:01 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440956.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 03:17:23 sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has joined #lisp 03:18:05 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 03:19:37 splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 03:19:45 vlion [~user@76.178.165.160] has joined #lisp 03:20:25 why's SF.net 03:20:43 's mailing list interface such utter garbage? 03:23:16 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:23:38 pkhuong: can't find it, care to point me in a bit greater detail? 03:24:56 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has joined #lisp 03:26:11 nope. 03:26:31 map-root is in sb-introspect, but it goes the wrong direction for you. 03:26:44 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-98-113-194-183.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:27:37 pkhuong: is there any better viewer than http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_name=sbcl-devel ? 03:27:42 gmane. 03:28:06 really? It told me it knew nothing for sbcl 03:28:14 steel-bank 03:28:58 ahh 03:32:20 -!- DrForr [~drforr@pool-98-112-230-87.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:32:38 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 03:33:35 pkhuong: hmm, still nothing even remotely resembling what you mentioned, do you remember any keywords I could look for? sb-vm and map-allocated didn't help 03:33:55 DrForr [~drforr@pool-98-112-230-87.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:37:57 Some googling reveals and path-to-root seems to be available in the dwim repo. 03:38:03 did you use double-colons? 03:38:43 Bacteria [~Bacteria@dyn-118-139-1-134.its.monash.edu.au] has joined #lisp 03:39:48 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-34-86.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 03:40:05 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-34-86.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Client Quit] 03:41:20 I made some macro somewhere to find the largest object on the heap, built on map-allocated-objects, since I had a giant array somewhere 03:41:21 pkhuong: ahh, I was looking for more recent things, I didn't really expect "last month" to cover 2009 too :) 03:41:26 but that solution's pretty specific to that problem 03:42:01 I'm pretty sure it came back up somewhere in sbcl-* this year. 03:47:27 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@dyn-118-139-1-134.its.monash.edu.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 03:48:24 pkhuong: either way, thanks, I'll give it a spin 03:49:08 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 03:54:53 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 03:57:02 Bacteria [~Bacteria@dyn-118-139-22-136.its.monash.edu.au] has joined #lisp 04:00:44 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 04:03:53 -!- sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:12:08 good morning all 04:12:21 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 04:15:46 inklesspen [~jon@inklesspen.com] has joined #lisp 04:16:35 Can anyone recommend a Lisp implementation for ARM that has a reasonable FFI? 04:17:04 i was looking at clisp, but what info I could find looked like both the generational GC and FFI don't work on ARM 04:17:52 CCL. 04:21:19 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc12-cdif12-2-0-cust276.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 04:22:16 hm. 04:22:20 HET2 [~diman@cpc12-cdif12-2-0-cust276.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 04:23:09 this may work, but I'm worried it targets a more advanced version of ARM than the particular one I was thinking of. 04:23:14 but I guess "ARM" is rather vague 04:23:15 thanks 04:29:53 inklesspen: ECL 04:30:03 CCL requires hi-end cpu 04:30:37 hm. 04:31:08 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-rxccdvwoaefnvall] has joined #lisp 04:31:54 p_l|backup: do you have much experience with ECL? 04:32:37 in particular, can I run it on the device with swank and connect to that from my emacs/slime on my desktop? and if so, does that require gcc on the device? 04:33:23 Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 04:33:41 -!- elliottcable is now known as ec|detached 04:35:04 inklesspen: doesn't require gcc, but it might limit some stuff - I have no idea how good it is at FFI from bytecode 04:35:11 (bytecod efrom compiled code is fine) 04:35:41 -!- orivej [~orivej@host-72-146-66-217.spbmts.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:36:04 i note that the ECL manual has no mention of ARM. :( 04:36:06 *FFI from compiled 04:36:41 inklesspen: because it doesn't matter - the only architecture specific bits are there for x86, and ar rather experimental optimizations 04:36:45 ah, okay 04:37:36 inklesspen: ECL should work on anything that you can get a compliant ANSI C (well, maybe C99 or C89) compiler target to 04:40:23 Deathaholic [~Mococa@186.214.245.203] has joined #lisp 04:41:45 "should" doesn't mean that it does 04:42:23 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:43:41 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.245.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:45:30 stassats: most of the time it works, though 04:46:16 sometimes it doesn't even work on linux-x86 with gcc 04:46:46 it has its share of problems, but they aren't usually tied to cpu :P 04:46:52 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-176-90.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:47:39 i had problems on x86_64 which weren't present on x86 04:50:27 were they per chance related to sizes of int and void* no longer matching? 04:50:30 (or similar) 04:50:31 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:50:58 cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 04:51:13 no 04:51:53 in any case, C is not portable, so don't expect to magically work on some untested platform 04:52:10 true 05:01:43 slyrus [~chatzilla@99-27-205-152.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:04:52 Well, strictly conformant C is portable. 05:05:04 Not that you're likely to be wanting to use that. 05:05:23 A bit like CL in that regard. 05:06:05 i'm just trying to get a lisp on my chumby 05:06:58 A what. 05:07:09 vlion: it's basically a small touchscreen with linux on it 05:07:20 http://wiki.chumby.com/index.php/Main_Page#Chumby_devices 05:07:24 Ah, okay. 05:07:36 It sounded like some sort of cutesy toy. :P 05:07:48 it's an open-source cutesy toy! 05:09:18 I see no penguins. I am gravely disappointed. 05:10:22 Hrm. 05:10:30 "Strictly conformant." 05:12:11 -!- Deathaholic [~Mococa@186.214.245.203] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:14:28 superjudge [~superjudg@195.22.80.141] has joined #lisp 05:15:55 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@195.22.80.141] has quit [Client Quit] 05:22:14 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:24:03 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:24:11 -!- abeaumont_ [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:30:24 -!- ASau [~user@95-24-202-195.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:31:57 ASau [~user@95-24-202-195.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:32:49 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:32:51 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:37:03 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.207.207] has joined #lisp 05:37:10 -!- realitygrill 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Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-157-119.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:59:14 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@99-27-205-152.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:00:16 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-110-245.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:00:26 -!- topeak [~topeak@123.114.127.238] has left #lisp 06:02:41 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-157-119.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:04:40 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:04:47 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 06:05:13 sonnym1 [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:06:40 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:07:11 -!- cbp [~Cesar@189.139.219.96] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:07:13 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-23-61.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:08:23 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:08:54 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has joined #lisp 06:09:47 qsun [~user@eth123.nsw.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:15:13 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.207.207] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 06:15:54 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:16:04 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sbahra] 06:17:01 chp [~chp@2001:da8:a000:155:5eff:35ff:fe0c:c3ef] has joined #lisp 06:18:27 akimbo [~akimbo@cpe-024-163-093-204.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:21:23 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:7a2b:cbff:fed0:c11c] has joined #lisp 06:21:23 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:7a2b:cbff:fed0:c11c] has quit [Changing host] 06:21:23 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 06:23:12 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@dyn-118-139-22-136.its.monash.edu.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 06:26:52 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:27:24 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:27:49 good morning 06:27:59 hi 06:29:24 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:30:01 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.236.13] has joined #lisp 06:30:41 -!- lanthan [~ze@dslb-088-075-232-162.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:32:26 lanthan [~ze@dslb-088-074-184-151.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:33:39 -!- benny [~benny@i577A1157.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:35:18 -!- lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@77.16.129.218.tmi.telenormobil.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:38:18 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 06:39:33 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:42:27 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:44:22 -!- foocraft [~ewanas@78.101.90.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:46:19 foocraft [~ewanas@78.101.171.51] has joined #lisp 06:47:08 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 06:47:44 hello 06:48:21 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:48:29 why does (read (make-concatenated-stream (make-string-input-stream "hello ") (make-string-input-stream "world"))) output only HELLO and not HELLO WORLD? 06:48:50 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.236.13] has joined #lisp 06:49:14 <|3b|> READ only reads one token? 06:49:19 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 06:49:21 form. 06:49:24 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:49:37 thanks 06:49:55 the clhs entry does seem like it should work, though 06:49:59 unless i'm missing something 06:50:02 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_con.htm#make-concatenated-stream 06:50:37 oh, right. 06:50:45 i misinterpreted, hooray 06:51:03 it's morning :) 06:51:42 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-100-53.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:52:10 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.236.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:53:20 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 06:53:41 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-23-61.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:58:14 stis [~stis@host-90-235-9-224.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 06:59:27 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:01:16 it's a pity that make-concatenated-stream doesn't allow nil as a "skip stream" 07:01:25 Does anyone know about the health of Nick Levine? I'm waiting for further chapters of "Lisp outside the box", wondering whether any more will come ... 07:03:36 ehu [~ehuels@109.34.97.101] has joined #lisp 07:06:27 flip214: I think he definitively had to abandon the project. (At least, that's how I read http://enlivend.livejournal.com/21231.html ) 07:07:53 Thanks, I read that a while ago ... that's 13 months old, I wondered if there're any news 07:08:30 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 07:08:37 trigen_ [c1aca602@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.172.166.2] has joined #lisp 07:14:15 aerique [310225@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:16:49 wivlaro [~bill@craftsmanltd.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:17:25 hey. i want to add SO_RCVTIMEO to sb-bsd-sockets. It looks fairly simple to do. Does anyone know of a good reason why it shouldn't be there? 07:17:51 Normally people just use non-blocking i/o. 07:17:56 I don't see why you wouldn't. 07:18:45 after having read from a concatenated stream do I have to close each stream of the concatenation ? 07:18:50 well, i have a loop which I want to sleep in, i'd rather sleep waiting for packets. 07:21:40 -!- quasisane [~sanep@76.24.80.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:21:49 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:22:35 -!- cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:24:00 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.34.97.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:24:44 -!- chp [~chp@2001:da8:a000:155:5eff:35ff:fe0c:c3ef] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:25:29 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 07:26:05 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-150-156.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:27:21 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-73-150.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:28:54 oh... it would need a struct timeval. :-/ 07:29:04 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-78-31.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:29:40 <|3b|> don't most non-blocking IO libs have a 'wait for input or timeout' operation? 07:29:58 Yes, like poll() or select(). 07:30:12 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:30:18 But that's independent of the socket, which is why probably no-one has bothered with the socket level timeout. 07:30:29 Which, from, memory is highly system dependent anyhow. 07:34:16 sb-bsd-sockets doesn't have any support for poll/select 07:35:11 -!- herbieB [~herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:35:27 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA36C6C.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:35:28 herbieB [~herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has joined #lisp 07:36:54 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-170-76.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:37:12 basho__ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-236-244.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:37:41 leo2007 [~leo@111.194.92.32] has joined #lisp 07:37:59 <|3b|> ah, i guess that would be a problem then :/ 07:39:10 hmm... so i want a UDP socket which I want to be able to just sit and wait on for n milliseconds and then give up. Preferably that will work on win+lin. 07:39:51 Night-hacks [~nullpoint@95.38.52.69] has joined #lisp 07:41:27 is iolib linux only? 07:42:36 yeah pretty much unix only 07:42:38 <|3b|> i think someone is working on windows support, no idea how far it has gotten though 07:42:49 it's pretty heavyweight too 07:43:11 as far as i understood windows support isn't really on the cards 07:43:24 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-109-16.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:43:25 abeaumont_ [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 07:45:37 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:45:54 -!- vlion [~user@76.178.165.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:47:06 superjudge [~superjudg@195.22.80.141] has joined #lisp 07:51:04 <|3b|> my understanding is that it just needed someone willing to do the work, which hasn't happened until recently 07:55:22 i thought iolib was just too unix-centric to really ever be ported. 07:56:55 i find myself tempted to just make a little C library to do what I want. 07:58:58 <|3b|> well, not being easy would be a good reason for people willing/able to do the work to be rare :) 07:59:26 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:59:49 *|3b|* doesn't know any details about the port beyond it being mentioned a few times in #lisp though 08:00:19 Well, firstly you need somebody with deep and abiding interests in *both* CL *and* the finer points of networking. Then, from that massive pool of candidates, you need somebody also sufficiently motivated to make it work on an MS platform. 08:00:27 I believe the problem is evident at that point :) 08:01:01 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:01:02 Davsebamse [~das@office.ipvision.dk] has joined #lisp 08:01:12 -!- Davsebamse [~das@office.ipvision.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:03:45 -!- lanthan [~ze@dslb-088-074-184-151.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 08:07:04 well, would somebody pay for that? that might solve the motivation point 08:07:18 -!- qsun [~user@eth123.nsw.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:08:04 -!- trigen_ [c1aca602@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.172.166.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:09:31 atomx` [~user@86.35.150.23] has joined #lisp 08:12:22 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 08:13:30 c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-jawckfnbgvmagoxs] has joined #lisp 08:13:31 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 08:13:38 hi 08:13:59 lo 08:14:04 when implementing defgeneric methode by defmethod, can implementor has a different arguments signature ? 08:14:23 nop 08:14:36 The parameter lists must be congruents. 08:14:36 there is only generic function 08:14:39 See definition in clhs. 08:14:49 methods are only to create the actual code body for that generic function 08:14:54 There is one function, with many methods inside it. 08:15:29 (defgeneric f (x &optional y)) (defmethod f (x &optional (y 1))) (defmethod f ((x integer) &optional (y 42))) 08:16:14 hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:16:48 this code made confusion (defgeneric balance (account)) (defmethod balance ((account bank-account)) (slot-value account 'balance)). 08:17:35 Night-hacks: congluent clhs 08:18:02 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d0037d3.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:18:18 ((account bank-account)) is congruent with (account) 08:18:34 Guthur [c743cb8d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.141] has joined #lisp 08:18:43 but it has two args 08:18:54 it is one parameter, except in method definition it states that the method is only applicable for accounts that are subclasses of bank-account 08:18:58 no, it has one 08:19:05 learn to count the parentheses 08:19:44 parentheses ... 08:19:45 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:20:03 Night-hacks: learn to differenciate a tree of depth 1 from a tree of depth 2! 08:20:12 well, it seems you don't have a clue about CLOS actually 08:20:20 if you had, you'd know what to expect 08:20:26 Night-hacks: (trees of depth 2 have longer branches than tree of depth 1) 08:20:30 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 08:20:40 Night-hacks: clues are found in clhs 08:20:57 CLHS ? 08:20:57 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for ?. 08:21:23 minion: clhs 08:21:30 clhs defmethod 08:21:30 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defmet.htm 08:21:45 Night-hacks: and follow the links 08:21:46 Night-hacks: you can see the difference between (let (foo) ...) and (let ((foo 42)) ...), right? 08:21:49 aha, hyper spec 08:22:14 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-32-11-41.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 08:22:15 Atomsk [ace4016@adsl-184-32-11-41.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 08:22:53 common lisp hyper spec 08:23:02 -!- jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:23:15 yeah, got it now, why lots of my codes sucks. 08:24:33 so we say they have different tree of depth. 08:24:38 right ? 08:25:16 depth of tree. 08:25:34 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:26:12 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:26:26 xinming [~hyy@115.221.7.58] has joined #lisp 08:26:30 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 08:26:52 (account bank-account) => is something like casting here ? 08:27:02 because account is not function 08:27:04 No. WHy don't you read clhs? 08:27:09 clhs defmethod 08:27:10 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defmet.htm 08:27:28 trigen_ [c1aca602@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.172.166.2] has joined #lisp 08:27:30 Ok ... 08:27:46 You might also want to read: Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation http://www-cgi.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/dst/www/LispBook/index.html 08:28:36 pjb: read the latest one. 08:29:01 there was nothing like such a topic. 08:29:07 tfb [~tfb@92.41.210.143.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:29:46 Read again chapter 2. 08:31:29 -!- leo2007 [~leo@111.194.92.32] has quit [Quit: battery dead] 08:33:40 tfb_ [~tfb@92.41.212.3.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:34:06 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.41.210.143.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Disconnected by services] 08:34:11 -!- tfb_ is now known as tfb 08:35:06 BountyX [~erhan@adsl-75-10-146-147.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:35:15 -!- Night-hacks [~nullpoint@95.38.52.69] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:35:18 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-cjeazdgffeukbzfo] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:39:17 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:39:22 Joreji_ [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 08:40:46 misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has joined #lisp 08:44:40 Night-hacks [~nullpoint@95.38.52.69] has joined #lisp 08:47:16 foocraft_ [~ewanas@78.100.215.128] has joined #lisp 08:48:07 Is IN-PACKAGE always going to be the same as setting *PACKAGE*? 08:48:34 That's what it does, yes. 08:48:52 Thanks. 08:48:54 Demosthenes [~demo@mcd5736d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 08:49:26 quasisane [~sanep@c-76-24-80-97.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:49:57 <|3b|> in-package makes sure the package exists and has compile-time side effects, which might not be exactly 'the same as setting *package*' 08:49:58 clhs in-package 08:49:58 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_in_pkg.htm 08:50:01 -!- foocraft [~ewanas@78.101.171.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:50:47 -!- Levenson [~Levenson@91.185.12.110] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:53:29 quasisane_ [~sanep@c-76-24-80-97.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:53:46 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-icdjkhbhzswkyzcj] has joined #lisp 08:57:26 benny` [~benny@i577A2417.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 08:59:44 -!- benny` is now known as benny 09:00:42 _foocraft [~ewanas@78.101.228.214] has joined #lisp 09:03:14 -!- Salamander__ is now known as Salamander 09:03:14 -!- BountyX [~erhan@adsl-75-10-146-147.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:03:23 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 09:04:29 -!- foocraft_ [~ewanas@78.100.215.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:09:11 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-100-53.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:09:13 -!- misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:09:16 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-246-122.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:10:20 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.203.172] has joined #lisp 09:11:52 gor[e] [~svr@gw2.masterhost.ru] has joined #lisp 09:12:00 easyE: there's a difference: in-package is eval-when + setf *package*. 09:12:45 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:15:05 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:16:14 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 09:16:18 pjb: EVAL-WHEN in all three cases? 09:17:35 dcorking [~dcorking@82.152.210.11] has joined #lisp 09:18:23 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has joined #lisp 09:18:27 easyE: yes. 09:20:34 -!- jamief [~user@158.223.51.80] has quit [Quit: Terminated with extreme prejudice - dircproxy 1.0.5] 09:23:45 pjb: THanks for the clarification 09:23:49 jamief [~user@harrison.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:25:14 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 09:28:00 urandom__ [~user@p548A3708.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:29:33 jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 09:30:54 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-aucwnhmqjtckfgvw] has joined #lisp 09:32:49 add^_ [~add^_^@h9n5c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 09:36:41 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-icdjkhbhzswkyzcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:37:42 oudeis [~oudeis@82.166.248.14] has joined #lisp 09:38:49 suncica2222 [dfgfdgdfgd@P1-121.internet.krstarica.com] has joined #lisp 09:39:27 -!- iori [~iori@110-133-45-54.rev.home.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:42:45 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@82.166.248.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:43:31 -!- ocharles [u411@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lhficlpllrnihaky] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:43:54 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 09:44:09 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.221.7.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:44:14 Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #lisp 09:45:50 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 09:46:29 Molly_Az [~chatzilla@174-26-87-133.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 09:46:52 Hey all. A little macro help? 09:47:44 Molly_Az: go on 09:47:55 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-176-232.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:48:04 Thanks. Paste code directly? 09:48:07 *dcorking* ran torta a couple of times yesterday, with help of #lisp: and cleared out several gigs of space - it beats scrolling thru du listings hands down 09:48:10 <|3b|> lisppaste: url 09:48:10 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 09:48:33 <|3b|> paste code there ^ 09:49:08 hey, paste.lisp.org up again! 09:49:17 <|3b|> flip214: sometimes :) 09:49:32 http://paste.lisp.org/+2MBN 09:49:46 stis_ [~stis@host-95-194-21-142.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 09:50:09 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-164-21.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 09:50:18 torta would be much nicer if it used javascript + svg instead of flash 09:50:25 Thanks. I'm obviously a lisp neophyte and I'm unsure of how to interpret (no pun intended) lisp macros. 09:50:42 Molly_Az: you're missing the starting ( 09:50:45 -!- stis [~stis@host-90-235-9-224.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:50:46 what's the question? 09:51:04 <|3b|> macros are just functions that run during compilation to transform code 09:51:18 Oh, could you explain how the macro works? Step by step if possible? 09:51:45 http://www.psg.com/~dlamkins/sl/chapter03-08.html 09:51:58 <|3b|> when the evaluator sees a macro form, it passes the form to the function defined for that macro, then evaluates what the macro returns 09:52:14 I am *very* interested in learning lisp. 09:52:40 <|3b|> so for example with your macro, if the evaluator sees (setq-literal foo bar) it calls the macro-function with the symbols FOO and BAR 09:52:57 Ok. The name of the macro is "setq-literal" and it accepts two args? 09:52:58 <|3b|> the macro function builds the list (SETQ FOO 'BAR) from those symbols, and returns that list 09:52:58 misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has joined #lisp 09:54:03 <|3b|> which is then evaluated (or compiled into code which when evaluated) sets FOO to the symbol BAR 09:54:17 The macro returns a list consisting of foo and bar, but the symbol bar is not evaluated? 09:54:40 <|3b|> the name of the macro is the symbol SETQ-LITERAL, not the string "setq-literal", but yes 09:54:48 mobydick [~textual@124-171-177-47.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:54:50 <|3b|> (yes to 2 args) 09:54:59 Ah..I see. 09:54:59 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:55:23 <|3b|> the returned list contains the symbol SETQ, the symbol FOO, and the list (QUOTE BAR), which contains 2 symbols QUOTE and BAR 09:55:26 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-otreccsrtntahbgq] has joined #lisp 09:56:03 http://paste.lisp.org/display/122244 09:56:16 -!- _foocraft [~ewanas@78.101.228.214] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:56:22 (playgame 5 2 'human-play 'a 'human-play 'b) 09:56:34 human-play is a function 09:56:40 so 09:56:42 <|3b|> the interpretation of that list depends on the first symbol, in this case SETQ, which causes the second argument (QUOTE BAR) to be evaluated, which produces the symbol BAR 09:56:58 -!- rme [rme@2B234265.3CA0AA47.699BA7A6.IP] has quit [Ping timeout] 09:57:18 why is there ' when its a function in (playgame 5 2 'human-play 'a 'human-play 'b) 09:57:35 why not (playgame 5 2 human-play 'a human-play 'b) 09:57:35 suncica2222: symbols may be used to designate functions 09:57:36 ? 09:57:44 <|3b|> suncica2222: have you read any books about CL yet? 09:57:59 *Molly_Az* is gawking at the code and re-reading the explanation. 09:58:01 <|3b|> or /any/ sort of introductory material besides IRC? 09:58:13 yes 09:58:41 <|3b|> did it explain the distinction between function namespace and variable namespace in CL? 09:59:17 when it has ' it's not a function 09:59:19 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.150.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:59:22 ocharles [u411@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pxzegzlpvqsxtjha] has joined #lisp 09:59:38 <|3b|> ' is just a shortcut for QUOTE 09:59:40 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.2.133] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:59:47 Thanks |3b|. Xach, you were the lisper referenced in Seibel's book? 10:00:16 <|3b|> 'human-play reads as (QUOTE HUMAN-PLAY), which when evaluated returns the symbol HUMAN-PLAY 10:00:42 ok 10:00:53 |3b|, the comma "overrides" the backtick? 10:01:10 <|3b|> human-play without the ' evaluates to the value of the variable HUMAN-PLAY 10:01:18 <|3b|> Molly_Az: more-or-less, yes 10:01:25 Molly_Az, I am not a regular here, but I am pretty sure there is only one Xach :) (Siebel hangs out here too :0 ) 10:01:25 suncica2222: read: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html 10:01:30 <|3b|> clhs ` 10:01:30 Ok. Makes sense. 10:01:30 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@mcd5736d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:01:30 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_df.htm 10:01:45 Molly_Az: both of them, yes! 10:01:59 <|3b|> ^ that page explains how ` and , etc work 10:02:03 Thanks dcorking ;) 10:02:26 symbol != variable 10:02:36 <|3b|> right 10:02:52 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:02:55 suncica2222: the alternative to (quote human-play) is (function human-play). In general, (quote human-play) when evaluated returns the symbol HUMAN-PLAY which designates the function returned when evaluating (function human-play). But in some circumstances they may be different. 10:02:56 Xach. Cool. I recall seeing your quote when I found his book on gigamonkeys ;) 10:02:56 wislin [~user@220.166.2.1] has joined #lisp 10:03:53 <|3b|> (another alternative would be to store a function in the variable human-play) 10:04:01 *Molly_Az* needs to go to work but will return with yet more newbie inquiries. Thanks all. 10:04:08 designates...not familiar with that term.. 10:04:09 -!- Molly_Az [~chatzilla@174-26-87-133.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 4.0.1/20110413222027]] 10:04:40 <|3b|> clhs 1.4.1.5 10:04:40 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_dae.htm 10:04:46 <|3b|> suncica2222: see that page ^ 10:04:51 ok 10:06:08 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-185-93.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:06:20 rme [~rme@50.43.157.70] has joined #lisp 10:06:33 oudeis [~oudeis@82.166.248.14] has joined #lisp 10:06:46 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.203.172] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:07:32 I know functions pointers and delegates from C/C#... 10:07:52 -!- wislin [~user@220.166.2.1] has left #lisp 10:09:13 suncica2222, those concepts don't seem to be relevant to Lisp, as symbols aren't normally accessible at run time in C-like systems 10:10:25 ok 10:10:44 -!- Night-hacks [~nullpoint@95.38.52.69] has left #lisp 10:12:10 I saw a great Scheme tutorial recently, that showed a great pencil and paper model for local environments and bindings: however I don't think the model translates well to Common Lisp because of the namespaces thing 10:12:44 dcorking: why not? 10:13:29 jdz : well maybe not for beginners 10:14:00 skeptical_p [~rononovsk@109.65.184.67] has joined #lisp 10:14:22 dcorking: the only difference is where the implementation looks for the value; in case of scheme there is only one place to look in (symbol value); in common lisp, it depends on the position of the symbol: if it is in the first position of a list then function binding, otherwise variable binding. 10:15:02 -!- rme [rme@572B89E4.E6A1271C.699BA7A6.IP] has quit [Ping timeout] 10:15:12 ok - sounds good jdz - it seemed a bit scary to me until you said that 10:15:15 Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@1807ds2-noe.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 10:15:39 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.157.70] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:15:55 -!- doc_who [~doc_who@pool-108-18-142-175.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:16:09 daniel_ [~daniel@p5082A315.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:16:25 *dcorking* goes to hunt down a bookmark for that tutorial, in case it is useful to suncica2222 10:16:37 doc_who [~doc_who@pool-108-18-142-175.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:17:28 in the meantime, I like this from the glossary of the Gabriel paper pjb mentioned earlier: "A symbol is a Lisp data structure that has a value cell, a property list, a function cell (in Common Lisp), and so on." 10:18:13 -!- daniel___ [~daniel@p5B326AEA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:22:41 on that topic however, is it possible in CL for an environment to bind to a function from one context and a value from another ... 10:23:26 ... in other words, can a local value binding hide a previous function binding? 10:26:20 dcorking: value binding forms shadow value bindings, function binding forms function bindings 10:26:30 dcorking: so i'd say the answer to your question is no 10:29:16 jdz -that is good - though why I would ever bind the same symbol to a function and a value, barring typos, I don't know, but it is good to know they don't clash in the way they appear to in the Gabriel quote 10:29:41 snearch [~snearch@f053003204.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:29:45 <|3b|> LIST is a pretty common name for a variable storing a list 10:29:51 -!- k9quaint__ [~quaint@c-98-207-104-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:29:54 dcorking: notice, in emacs lisp, (flet ((f () '(local f))) (list (funcall (quote f)) (funcall (symbol-function (quote f))) (funcall (function f)) (f))) --> ((local f) (local f) (local f) (local f)) ; there's only dynamic binding, in emacs lisp < 24. 10:29:56 (defun foo (list) (list (reverse list) list)) 10:30:27 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:30:43 the tutorial I thought might be relevant to suncica2222's question is on pages 7 to 13 of http://l3d.cs.colorado.edu/courses/AI-96/AICHandout4.pdf (56 kB download) 10:31:16 jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.47.62] has joined #lisp 10:31:34 dcorking: You would bind a function and a value to the same symbol, for the same reason you use the same word to denote a verb and a noun in natural languages. 10:32:46 <|3b|> also, most bindings aren't "binding the symbol to" things, but creating local bindings named by that symbol 10:33:17 mrSpec [~Spec@89-72-74-11.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 10:33:17 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-72-74-11.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 10:33:17 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 10:33:23 Well, you wouldn't, really. 10:33:39 It's not like lead and lead have anything in common in English. 10:33:45 |3b|, then I need a better mental model of a binding :( 10:33:55 Which is why we adorn them with part of speech modifiers. 10:33:57 <|3b|> dcorking: that's why i brought it up :) 10:34:10 (Which is the opposite of what CL does) 10:34:18 Once again, Zhivago surprizes us by his level of consistency. 10:34:45 <|3b|> Zhivago: lead and lead have something in common, even if neither is related to lead 10:34:57 (list list) adorns the first list by the first position in the application, and the second list by the other positions in the application. 10:35:21 3b: What do lead and lead have in common? :) 10:35:26 so can you point me to a resource to fix my mental model of a local binding please ? 10:35:27 Four letters. 10:35:39 dcorking: clhs 10:35:48 dcorking: pcl 10:35:51 etc. 10:36:03 So, your argument is 'for no reason at all'. 10:36:05 <|3b|> Zhivago: being first 10:36:05 dcorking: http://cliki.net/ points to all the CL resources. 10:36:35 *dcorking* will go to hunt down relevant chapters later 10:36:51 3b: No. lead is the metal and lead is the rope. Nothing to do with being in front. 10:37:05 -!- stis_ [~stis@host-95-194-21-142.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:37:11 stis_ [~stis@host-95-198-194-108.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 10:37:17 <|3b|> Zhivago: right, that was the lead i was talking about being unrelated to the other 2 leads 10:38:00 In english those are different words with the same spelling -- which is the opposite of CL. 10:38:11 in CL there is one word, with multiple values. 10:38:27 Which is why you can't export variables and functions separately. 10:38:41 -!- OliverUv [fuckident@69.70.212.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:39:02 <|3b|> ah, you were talking about multiple nouns, as opposed to nouns and verbs? 10:39:22 Zhivago: that's precisely because being in front has nothing to do with metal or ropes, that we use a different slot to store functions than values. 10:39:26 Duh! 10:39:27 3b: No. Either would be fine. 10:40:11 3b: If English were like CL, then lead and lead would be the same word -- but they're two different words in English. 10:40:36 3b: The fitting analogy would be noun:lead and verb:lead in CL. 10:40:38 jdz pasted "function/value namespaces for dcorking" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122245 10:41:06 3b: What it comes down to is that functions and variables in CL are in the same namespace. 10:41:16 3b: They're in different value spaces. 10:41:28 (flet ((lead (chief troup) (give-order (get-order chief) troup))) (let ((lead (metal '|Pb|))) (use *chief* lead) (lead *chief* *troup*) (let ((lead (rope 42))) (use *chief* lead) (lead *chief* troup)))) 10:42:06 Zhivago: the fitting analogy is obviously a function lead and a variable lead. 10:42:09 Duh! 10:42:22 As usual, pjb babbles. 10:44:41 -!- suncica2222 [dfgfdgdfgd@P1-121.internet.krstarica.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:44:55 jdz annotated #122245 "actually, try this" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122245#1 10:45:41 o/ all 10:45:56 pjb, afaict emacs doesn't have flet 10:46:21 does emacs have a lexical let? 10:46:27 symbole [~user@ool-ad02b0d9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 10:46:44 dcorking: (require 'cl) 10:46:48 ,df lexical-let 10:47:28 jdz: C-h f lexical-let RET 10:47:45 But it doesn't have a lexical-flet either. 10:48:12 flet should be implemented as lexical-let. 10:50:42 sellout- [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:51:06 rme [~rme@50.43.163.133] has joined #lisp 10:51:22 How can I make the inner ,a expand like this: (let ((a 'yay)) `(foo `(bar ,a ,b))) -> (foo `(bar yay ,b)) 10:51:55 (let ((a 'yay)) `(foo `(bar ',a ,b))) 10:52:07 (let ((a 'yay)) `(foo `(bar ,',a ,b))) 10:52:18 And b is not defined, so it'll break. 10:52:36 suncica2222 [dfgfdgdfgd@P1-121.internet.krstarica.com] has joined #lisp 10:53:16 aha! thanks pjb. That was the trick I was missing. ,', 10:53:21 http://paste.lisp.org/display/122244 10:53:43 in human play function 10:53:46 (cond ((and (numberp row) 10:54:52 how can I have some other code than inspecting true or false...like (setq boks (aref boksarray row col))... 10:55:06 it should be like switch case 10:55:16 suncica2222: you're inconsistent. 10:55:27 pjb - I got the emacs lisp example pretty printed and evaluated - but I don't get the lesson 10:55:30 suncica2222: do you want an expression like (setq ...) or an expression like (case ...)? 10:55:46 dcorking: the lession is in the CL example. 10:55:51 its about cond function 10:56:12 <|3b|> COND is not a function 10:56:20 The emacs lisp example was just a remark that in emacs lisp, that expression doesn't behave like CL, because CL has lexical binding for local functions, while emacs only has dynamic binding. 10:56:37 it should just have testing statements and not working code between them 10:57:00 suncica2222: You're not making sense at all. 10:57:01 <|3b|> CL has expressions, not statements 10:57:09 ok... 10:57:11 suncica2222: Do you have a question? 10:57:11 cond ((and (numberp row) 10:57:16 this is ok 10:57:27 Last time I run this code, it worked well. 10:57:28 in the meantime I browsed chapter 4 and chapter 5 of PCL again and I think I get the difference between a symbol and a binding - though for the Lisp I have written so far I don't think the ignorance did too much harm. Thanks |3b| 10:57:48 and this is ok (t 10:57:49 (cerror "Try again" 10:57:50 <|3b|> it seems to be a fee parentheses short of 'OK' 10:57:54 <|3b|> *few 10:58:00 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:58:00 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 10:58:00 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:58:19 -!- macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.A328.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:59:05 suncica2222: you (t....) is outside the cond 10:59:07 suncica2222: we know that this code is ok. What's your question? 10:59:09 cond should be just switch case1 case2 case3... and not switch case1 case2 "some working code" case4...? 10:59:18 the code is not ok 10:59:46 Guthur: it's perfectly ok. 10:59:57 clhs cond 10:59:57 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_cond.htm 10:59:58 |3b|, I browsed chapters 4 - the reader and 6 - variables (not 5) of PCL 11:00:04 suncica2222: don't guess. Read books. Read clhs 11:00:05 <|3b|> pjb: the pasted code as opposed to the original code? 11:00:15 yes code is ok and working and Im trying to figure out it 11:00:37 suncica2222: foremost, read clhs cond 11:00:39 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-076-182-089-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:00:51 *|3b|* can't tell if it was changed besides the comments and changing box to bokz everywhere 11:00:56 oops yeah my bad 11:01:01 xinming [~hyy@122.238.74.23] has joined #lisp 11:01:07 *Guthur* shuts up 11:01:26 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@h9n5c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Quit: add^_] 11:01:44 is the Common Lisp hyperspec available in other formats than HTML ? 11:02:03 typically, info 11:02:18 galdor: gcl had clhs in info format. 11:02:22 *dcorking* wonders why SLIME key bindings seem so different from Emacs Lisps ones 11:02:35 galdor: perhaps ecl has it too, I don't remember. 11:02:36 <|3b|> galdor: look for dpans2texi i think 11:02:51 dcorking: there are a lot more commands in slime than in emacs lisp. 11:03:22 ok, I'll have a look, thank you 11:03:53 k9quaint [~quaint@c-98-207-104-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:04:00 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@82.166.248.14] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:06:41 spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-10-76.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:07:00 sorry - I shouldn't have been thinking about key bindings out loud 11:08:35 anyway : is the lesson in the flet example somewhere in the CL output: "The function F is undefined." ? 11:09:09 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 11:09:59 dcorking: no. I even copy-and-pasted the function f TWICE! 11:11:06 oh - I think that my IRC client didn't send it to me (scrolling back - sorry) 11:11:28 dmiles [dmiles@c-24-21-133-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:11:39 (defun f () '(top-level f)) (flet ((f () '(local f))) (list (funcall (quote f)) (funcall (symbol-function (quote f))) (funcall (function f)) (f))) 11:11:42 -!- dmiles_afk [dmiles@c-24-21-133-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:12:46 Yuzu- [~yuzuchan@p5052-ipad406osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:12:47 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053003204.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 11:13:26 leyyer_su [~user@222.212.6.60] has joined #lisp 11:14:10 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc12-cdif12-2-0-cust276.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:15:39 lbc_ [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 11:15:40 -!- spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-10-76.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 11:15:54 pjb - thanks - it works now - I will go figure out what the interesting output means 11:16:37 In short: (quote f) always designates the toplevel function, same as (symbol-function 'f). 11:17:06 while (function f) returns either the toplevel function, or the lexically shadowing function. 11:17:22 -!- k9quaint [~quaint@c-98-207-104-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:18:10 When there are no lexical function binding for the symbol, then (quote f) designates the function returned by (function f) and (symbol-function 'f). 11:18:47 Actually, (quote f) designates the function returned by (symbol-function 'f) which is the same as returned by (function f) in that case. 11:21:03 cool - I am saving all that along with the code for later reference 11:23:45 k9quaint [~quaint@c-98-207-104-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:25:01 -!- macrobat_ [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.A328.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 11:26:25 actually it is a little mindblowing that the local environment appears to be able to evaluate f in two different ways - does it have two f's in its symbol table? 11:26:27 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:27:22 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 11:27:23 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 11:27:23 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 11:27:50 -!- gor[e] [~svr@gw2.masterhost.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:29:23 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-197-79.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:29:51 what does * mean? 11:29:53 *DB-player-id* 11:30:11 It's a convention for dynamic variables (specials). 11:30:40 are they global? 11:31:07 suncica2222: They aren't needed, but they are the convention for global variables. 11:31:34 ok 11:33:12 -!- jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:37:31 -!- Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@1807ds2-noe.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:38:17 They are usually global. 11:38:29 If you use defvar, you should use them. 11:40:07 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:40:55 barryfm [~barryfm@fl-71-51-64-129.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 11:42:25 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:43:48 how should example call look like for this function? 11:43:50 (defun Dots-and-Boxes( &key (board-size 4) ) 11:45:05 (dots-and-boxes 5) wont work 11:45:07 -!- stis_ [~stis@host-95-198-194-108.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:45:11 stis_ [~stis@host-95-198-194-108.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 11:45:12 suncica2222: (Dots-and-Boxes :board-size 10) or (Dots-and-Boxes) 11:45:22 thanks 11:45:28 suncica2222: Are you new to Common Lisp? 11:45:34 yes 11:46:02 suncica2222: Perhaps you should start with functions without keyword arguments. 11:46:47 suncica2222: Furthermore, it is unusual in CL programs to mix upper and lower case. And you have the spacing wrong: (defun dots-and-boxes (&key (board-size 4))) 11:47:11 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-150-156.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:47:27 suncica2222: never space after '(' or before ')'. Space before the first '(' in a group and after the last ')' in a group. 11:48:10 ok 11:48:52 That might seem like an arbitrary rule, but after a while you'll appreciate the readability - as soon as you're used to that style, that is 11:50:10 Hey guys can someone give me some help with lisp/postmodern/postgresql? 11:50:42 <|3b|> not without knowing what the problem is 11:51:53 Ive got a table in the database that I can see using the command: (list-tables) but i cant quite figure out how to read information out of the table and pass data into it?? 11:52:29 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.203.172] has joined #lisp 11:53:21 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-185-93.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 11:54:17 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-otreccsrtntahbgq] has left #lisp 11:54:42 http://marijnhaverbeke.nl/postmodern/#quickstart 11:55:01 (:select 'x 'y :from 'some-imaginary-table) 11:55:04 Im currently using http://marijnhaverbeke.nl/postmodern/ 11:55:06 -!- spurvewt [~fess@gate113.iba.by] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:55:07 oh beat me to it 11:55:26 but im having trouble getting the syntax right 11:55:41 <|3b|> well, not much we can do about that 11:55:52 <|3b|> (unless maybe you tell us what you tried) 11:55:53 is this some lisp predefined function? (CLGUI-startup :echo-messages NIL) 11:56:20 or should I define it? 11:56:39 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d0037d3.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:58:07 ok so I want to take three pieces of information and store them as records in the table (rows), am I right in defining a class to use to communicate with the database? 11:58:14 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 11:58:21 <|3b|> google suggests it is defined in http://www.ics.uci.edu/~arvo/COSMOS/code/CLGUI.lsp, which looks like it would be hard to use 11:59:02 mobydick: iirc, you want to define a DAO-class. this is all documented well in the postmodern docs tho. 11:59:09 *|3b|* doesn't bother with the postmodern class stuff, just uses pomo:query or whatever 11:59:14 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-244-150.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 11:59:31 spurvewt [~fess@gate113.iba.by] has joined #lisp 11:59:38 thanks 12:00:20 mobydick: my experience with postmodern/hunchentoot is that they are both very nice libraries, but you really do need to read the docs before you begin. otherwise you will waste a copious amount of time, in which case you will get where you want faster with another language. 12:01:25 hypno: understood. i have read through the postmodern documentation suggested i just want to make sure im on the right path 12:01:52 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:02:18 Hello! Is Slime's REPL history save to a file? (is must be...) but the question is where? :) I'd like to copy some lines from repl to my .lisp file. 12:02:56 s/some/few/ 12:03:03 <|3b|> ls -lart ~ suggests .slime-history.eld might have some slime history 12:03:20 hypno: the error I am currently stuck on is: Can't change metaclass of # to #. 12:03:21 [Condition of type SIMPLE-ERROR] 12:03:50 <|3b|> well, maybe you shouldn't try to change the metaclass of login-details to dao-class? 12:04:12 Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 12:05:12 mobydick: there should be a macro to define dao classes 12:05:17 |3b|: ah, thanks :) 12:05:31 mobydick: which supplies the right metaclass automatically 12:07:12 jdz: do substitute 'dao-class' for 'defclass'? I am slightly confused.. 12:07:31 -!- tsuru [~charlie@adsl-74-179-198-44.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:07:40 I'm back. I get now that a CL environment has two parts - a global environment and a lexical environment. Does Scheme have the same concept? 12:08:48 -!- stis_ [~stis@host-95-198-194-108.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:09:02 stis_ [~stis@host-95-194-47-135.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 12:09:43 mobydick: ok, never mind what i said. there is no such macro by default in postmodern. 12:09:55 i just defined dao-class as a metaclass and it all worked fine. i did not create tables in lisp tho (i dislike that, and i wanted it vice-versa to be honest) 12:10:17 mobydick: it seems to me your problem is that you have first defined the class with default metaclass, and later added [a different] metaclass specification 12:10:39 mobydick: and your lisp does not allow to change the metaclass of an existing class. maybe. 12:11:17 mobydick: just try uninterning the old class name, and do the definition again 12:11:39 mobydick: like, (unintern 'login-details) 12:12:32 :jdz I have the code: "(:metaclass dao-class)" in my class defniition 12:12:50 mobydick: yes, that's cool. but has it always been there? 12:13:16 mobydick: just do the unintern first, and then define your class again 12:13:34 :jdz sweet that solved that problem.. onto the next 12:14:10 :jdz in the REPL once you define a class, loading the code again doesn't overwrite that class defnintion? 12:14:13 mobydick: just try to understand what the error message means next time 12:14:16 mobydick: suffix, not prefix! 12:14:33 -!- Posterdati [~tapioca@host195-230-dynamic.17-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:14:35 xach: haha yep thanks 12:14:43 mobydick: you can make certain kinds of changes to classes by redefining them, but there are some rules. 12:14:45 mobydick: of course it overrides, as per the evaluation rules of common lisp 12:15:18 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-185-93.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:15:24 Xach: damn, i almost started using "dickmoby" 12:16:42 jdz: thats what i thought, so why did the new definition of the class not take on the new type of metaclass? 12:17:43 mobydick: because your lisp does not know how to _change_ the metaclass. 12:18:21 mobydick: some changes to classes (like the number of slots, inheritance, etc) can be changed at runtime, but metaclass apparently cannot 12:18:42 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-185-93.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:18:45 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has joined #lisp 12:19:45 -!- algorist_ [~quassel@host195-230-dynamic.17-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:20:22 jdz pasted "for mobydick" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122248 12:20:22 -!- lbc_ [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:21:11 mobydick: in that example session notice that the instance *foo* is created only once 12:21:27 algorist_ [~quassel@host195-230-dynamic.17-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:21:30 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.163.136] has joined #lisp 12:22:42 mobydick: and more importantly, some stuff in that instance has changed after redefining the class, but some hasn't 12:22:46 stis__ [~stis@host-95-194-40-220.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 12:22:48 -!- stis_ [~stis@host-95-194-47-135.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:24:21 mobydick: the lesson being that the class definition has been "overriden", but only some things can be done to keep your code sane. changing the metaclass is not one of those things. 12:24:51 mobydick: s/keep your code sane/keep the state of your application sane/ 12:26:21 jdz: ok thanks heaps that was a really clear way to look at it 12:27:12 jdz: so would you only really use the 'unintern' feature in the REPL or would you include it in your code? 12:27:17 CLOS has a nice API for updating instances when classes change. 12:27:53 mobydick: generally if you did not have any instances of that class, your lisp might as well have redefined the class. but maybe it is not worth the trouble at all from the implementation point of view (i.e., at least the class prototype instance would have been created, anyway) 12:28:16 mobydick: it's not very often that you have to change the metaclass of a class, right? 12:28:57 mobydick: defining a metaclass is kind of saying that this class behaves quite differently than the classes with STANDARD-CLASS metaclass 12:29:22 jdz: isn't this mostly a PCL problem tho? or do all cl's have this "issue"? 12:29:36 hypno: what issue? 12:30:12 jdz: runtime metaclass change. 12:30:14 -!- symbole [~user@ool-ad02b0d9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:30:29 hypno: well, at least CCL does not seem to do it, either. 12:30:59 jdz: ah, k. interresting corner case. 12:31:15 hypno: i don't see it as a corner case, actually. 12:31:34 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:31:35 leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has joined #lisp 12:32:23 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-17-206-5.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:32:45 hypno: there is the standard protocol for STANDARD-CLASS and redefining stuff, which might not be obeyed by other metaclasses; it is probably not feasible to implement the checking. 12:33:34 jweiss [~user@cpe-069-134-063-238.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:34:09 well, probably adding a restart that would allow to "just do it", but maybe it would cause more problems to the users than not allowing it. 12:34:27 i personally am not missing this feature. 12:34:53 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:35:27 i wasn't even aware of it, but noted. :) 12:35:34 Well, think about the implication for superclass composition. 12:35:35 lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@77.16.129.218.tmi.telenormobil.no] has joined #lisp 12:35:49 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 12:36:01 You're probably better off rebooting. 12:36:04 -!- Yuzu- [~yuzuchan@p5052-ipad406osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 12:36:22 I'm of the conclusion, these days, that you're always better off rebooting, really. 12:36:47 And trying to keep an image running perpetually, or at least relying on it, is a really bad design error. 12:37:41 -!- stis__ [~stis@host-95-194-40-220.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:37:56 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 12:37:56 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 12:37:56 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 12:39:00 is it odd or logical that symbol-function accesses the global environment, but symbol-value accesses the lexical one? 12:39:10 <|3b|> it does? 12:39:15 it doesn't 12:39:20 oh:( 12:39:35 Zhivago: i think there is a difference between having "an image" running, and having "an application" running (e.g., erlang). not sure it's worth the trouble discussing it any further, though. 12:40:30 I'm slightly interested in the image running convo 12:40:33 *|3b|* likes that they put the thought into designing the redefinition stuff though, even if i only use it during development 12:41:02 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 12:41:26 lots of scenarios involve something running for prelonged periods of time 12:41:43 Guthur: Badly designed ones. :) 12:41:47 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@195.22.80.141] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 12:42:09 I was wrong - clhs suggests to me that symbol-value accesses the dynamic environment 12:42:12 Guthur: There's nothing wrong with intending it to do so -- the problem is relying on it. 12:42:17 (setq buzz 'top-level-buzz) (let ((buzz 'local-buzz)) (list (symbol-value 'buzz) buzz)) 12:42:21 Well I could imagine pushing alot of stuff into on demand components 12:42:22 dcorking: It does. 12:42:25 -!- suncica2222 [dfgfdgdfgd@P1-121.internet.krstarica.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:42:35 <|3b|> dcorking: "symbol-value cannot access the value of a lexical variable. " 12:42:47 jdz: hmm. what kind of difference do you see? afaik, erlang just has a slightly more controlled (but also limitied) environment for it's lwp's as compared to your typical lisp. 12:43:45 hypno: well, you can imagine many applications (each in it's own package) running in the same image. or two versions of the same application running in one image. 12:43:59 jdz: Why is that important? 12:44:39 (above snippet) => (LOCAL-BUZZ LOCAL-BUZZ) 12:45:01 Zhivago: it's different. 12:45:10 jdz: In what interesting regard? 12:45:24 dcorking: I bet sbcl yelled at you for the first setq. 12:45:27 <|3b|> dcorking: well, if you didn't defvar or defparameter BUZZ, the SETQ has undefined consequences 12:45:37 Zhivago: in regard that an image is persintent, but the application can migrate from one version to another. 12:45:50 <|3b|> and if you did, it is a special var, so unrelated to lexical bindings 12:45:55 I misused setq ? sorry - no SBCL was cool with it :( 12:46:23 jdz: Yeah, but it can always fail at any time -- so what interesting difference does it make? 12:46:31 *dcorking* defvar'd BUZZ but forgot he did so 12:47:33 Zhivago: sometimes it might be a lot better idea to not restart an image (just because you can) 12:48:01 <|3b|> dcorking: if you follow the glossary link to 'value cell' it is more specific about accessing the dynamic binding 12:48:05 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 12:48:05 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 12:48:05 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 12:48:20 dcorking: http://random-state.net/log/3498750808.html 12:48:25 Zhivago: i mean, if i have a service running, i can do both: 1) fix a problem in the running image or 2) restart the image 12:48:50 Zhivago: in the latter case there is [usually] an interruption to the service 12:49:11 Zhivago: it all depends on lots of stuff, anyway, as you are well aware, so i don't see the point of this discussion. 12:49:43 Sure -- the point is that since you always have to handle the restart case ... :) 12:50:03 Zhivago: yes, that's your point and it is a very strong point. 12:50:21 heh - the "Trad" designations in the glossary make me smile. I guess 'tradition' might be the reason that symbol-function and symbol-value point to different environments 12:51:11 dcorking: which glossary entry? 12:51:38 dcorking: They don't. 12:51:40 <|3b|> dcorking: well, not like there are dynamic function bindings in (unmodified) CL 12:51:48 value cell - http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_v.htm#value_cell 12:51:55 jdz: thanks the for the (describe **) tip, really handy feature 12:51:56 dcorking: symbol-function and symbol-value both access the dynamic environment. 12:52:32 dcorking: (let ((a 10)) (declare special a) (let ((a 20)) (symbol-value 'a))) 12:52:38 mobydick: if you use slime (you should!) you can also inspect stuff (enable the presentations contrib) 12:52:52 jdz: yep using slime 12:52:53 mobydick: that's a lot cooler, really 12:53:12 mobydick: try C-c C-v i on a result of some evaluation 12:53:46 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-17-206-5.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:53:56 *|3b|* votes to just go straight to evaluating things with C-c I 12:53:59 Zhivago, the nub of my confusion is that inside flet, symbol-function returns something global, but in let, symbol-value returns something local 12:54:19 jdz: how do I enable presentations contrib? 12:54:26 |3b|: thanks for the shortcut! 12:54:30 dcorking: You are mistaken. 12:54:31 <|3b|> dcorking: it isn't exactly 'local' 12:54:31 dcorking: maybe you'd be less confused if you described it as "not lexical" 12:54:40 dcorking: See my example above. 12:54:55 dcorking: It's accessing the dynamic variable a, there. 12:55:00 mobydick: you have somewhere in your emacs initialization the call to slime-setup function 12:55:02 dcorking: Not the lexical variable a. 12:55:34 Fah [~Fah@paranoia.neverlight.com] has joined #lisp 12:55:51 mobydick: add slime-presentations to the list (i guess it is part of slime-fancy or whotitscalled, but anyway, make sure it's there) 12:56:05 jdz: I have "(load (expand-file-name "~/quicklisp/slime-helper.el"))" 12:56:55 mobydick: what happens if you invoke C-c I? 12:57:12 `fogus-away [~fogus@pool-96-255-210-172.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:57:33 mobydick: quicklisp apparently uses slime-fancy, so you should have the presentations already 12:57:45 jdz: yep using quicklisp 12:58:24 mobydick: anyway, results of your evaluations are (at least should be) mouse sensitive 12:58:37 mobydick: you can use mouse right-click to get a menu; choose inspect 12:58:47 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-rxccdvwoaefnvall] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:59:47 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:00:31 Xach - thanks - so my confusion is about the semantics of let and flet, not the semantics of symbol-foo 13:01:19 dcorking: have you checked the foo function i pasted? 13:01:25 [btw Zhivago 's example seemed to be missing a pair of parens; I extended it to:] (let ((a 10)) (declare (special a)) (let ((a 20)) (list (symbol-value 'a) a))) 13:01:43 dcorking: you should be fairly set if you figure out what and how it does 13:02:29 That looks plausible. 13:02:31 jdz - as usual irc is not giving me all your posts - I can't see foo in my scrollback :( 13:02:42 So, what do you get? 13:03:04 dcorking: http://paste.lisp.org/display/122245 13:03:16 Zhivago, (10 20) 13:03:23 And there you go. 13:03:31 The dynamic value and the lexical value. 13:04:29 Zhivago, good - now I see in front of me what Xach meant by "not lexical" :) 13:06:21 I got jdz's paste now - it will take me a while to figure it but I will try to do it on my own (in the hope of learning more that way) and come back if I get stuck. Thanks 1E6. 13:06:47 tsuru [~charlie@adsl-74-179-198-44.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 13:08:25 jikanter [~Adium@h-74-1-220-2.miatflad.static.covad.net] has joined #lisp 13:08:53 -!- bobbysmith0071 is now known as bobbysmith007 13:09:28 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.163.133] has left #lisp 13:09:58 -!- Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.18.135] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:11:20 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.163.136] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:11:50 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 13:11:56 dcorking: well, it's probably not the best function from the pedagogical point of view, but it should make you understand the lexical binding stuff; consider also changing FLET to LABELS for even greater insight :) 13:13:02 dcorking: but try to first figure out what's going to happen before running it with LABELS 13:15:05 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.203.172] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:21:59 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.203.172] has joined #lisp 13:23:17 workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 13:23:43 -!- Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-dhtqbndvjeaeyelx] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:25:01 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.163.136] has joined #lisp 13:31:53 rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 13:32:23 bohanlon [~bohanlon@66.170.231.233] has joined #lisp 13:33:32 jweiss_ [~user@cpe-069-134-063-238.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:33:44 -!- jweiss_ [~user@cpe-069-134-063-238.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:38:54 does SLIME have a command to set a breakpoint on entry to a function? 13:39:30 -!- jikanter [~Adium@h-74-1-220-2.miatflad.static.covad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:39:49 add^_ [~add^_^@h9n5c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 13:39:59 dcorking: I don't think so. 13:40:26 Yuuhi [benni@p5483B999.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:00 -!- sonnym1 [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:41:26 ok - I'll just put (break) where I want it and recompile then 13:41:40 dcorking: do not underestimate the power of TRACE 13:42:30 sure : but I am used to single stepping while watching the inspector in smalltalk :D 13:43:29 *|3b|* thinks TRACE can add breakpoints at start of function on at least sbcl 13:43:37 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:44:23 I think SBCL's interpretation of single stepping differs a little from Smalltalk (so) - so the TRACE output turns out to be more informative 13:44:39 <|3b|> yeah, that makes it a bit less useful :) 13:44:53 <|3b|> compiling with DEBUG 3 helps though 13:45:12 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:46:04 ok 13:47:13 <|3b|> C-u C-c C-c or C-u C-c C-k is a convenient way to do that for a single form or file 13:47:59 jtza8_ [~jtza8@41.56.5.133] has joined #lisp 13:48:16 cbp [~Cesar@189.139.219.96] has joined #lisp 13:48:33 *|3b|* mostly uses that for the restartable frames rather than the increased steppability though 13:48:39 |3b|, and jdz - you are heros (trace foo :break T) does what I need, and I will try 3b's keystroke in a moment 13:49:15 -!- xinming [~hyy@122.238.74.23] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:49:50 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-197-79.wbs.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:50:48 ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has joined #lisp 13:50:56 Good morning. 13:51:33 *Xach* uses it for 'v' on frames 13:51:49 xan_ [~xan@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 13:51:54 -!- ubii [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:51:58 pen [u854@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vpmqpkwsiiyacatu] has joined #lisp 13:52:17 Mornin' ChibaPet 13:53:00 <|3b|> yeah, more precise 'v' is helpful too, if possibly a sign of overly large functions :) 13:53:51 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 13:53:59 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:54:11 chp [~chp@2001:da8:a000:155:5eff:35ff:fe0c:c3ef] has joined #lisp 13:54:39 smalltalk debuggers have a precise source code marker too, despite the convention for tiny methods 13:55:13 and DEBUG 3 gives me exactly the kind of stepper that I want 13:55:27 <|3b|> yeah, not saying it isn't good to have, just that needing it might be a bad sign :) 13:57:19 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:58:10 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-190.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:58:19 TristamWrk [8071f149@gateway/web/freenode/ip.128.113.241.73] has joined #lisp 13:59:36 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:59:39 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:00:13 Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-uuhoxduhjuyjlmpx] has joined #lisp 14:02:11 pnq [~nick@AC82D104.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 14:02:17 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.163.136] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:02:43 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:05:11 -!- lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@77.16.129.218.tmi.telenormobil.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:06:08 cal-cal [3d8ed192@gateway/web/freenode/ip.61.142.209.146] has joined #lisp 14:07:25 muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:31 milanj [~milanj_@79-101-138-223.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 14:16:30 sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 14:17:18 -!- cal-cal [3d8ed192@gateway/web/freenode/ip.61.142.209.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:17:22 -!- ec|detached is now known as elliottcable 14:17:55 -!- jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.47.62] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:20:05 Anyone managed to run CUSP with latest SBCL? 14:20:39 -!- sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:20:59 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:21:04 I could get it working the last I tried 14:21:07 A friend asked me to recommend him a nice *easy to configure and learn* IDE to learn CL. But CUSP comes with SBCL 1.0.20. 14:21:27 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 14:21:27 I didn't spend to long to be honest. 14:21:48 Guthur: I just tried with 1.0.45. It consumed both cores for a minute then crashed. 14:21:50 Emacs is very configurable 14:22:08 But you need to spend time to configure and leasn it. 14:22:16 He is not interested in emacs, he is interested in CL. 14:22:21 *learn 14:23:06 tools are just as important as the language, maybe more so 14:23:40 Yes, and the default CUSP looks better than default SLIME already. :) 14:23:44 naryl: there is always LispWorks 14:24:23 asdf does not seem to check the second of a file's timestamp to see if it's updated (at least, that's what i think by analyzing my problem and treating asdf as a black box, i don't know asdf's inner workings) 14:24:33 He won't use a closed-source system. 14:24:36 *seconds 14:24:47 I have never really seen anyone advocating CUSP, so I have my doubts about it actually 'being better' than anything 14:24:48 this is with 2.011 14:25:48 Guthur: I just installed it and found that it has all emacs features I use. Other than working properly with external SBCL or other implementations. 14:25:51 I imagine it is an easier learning curve for someone who already knows Eclipse 14:26:00 yes 14:26:04 naryl: so does he want to learn something or bitch around? 14:26:06 naryl, does friend already know Eclipse? 14:26:12 yes 14:26:14 and Java. 14:26:26 well then he maybe beyond hope 14:26:30 naryl: maybe he should use Richard Stallman's Common Lisp 14:26:32 :D 14:26:43 he should forget everything he knows about Java - 14:27:07 I told him to learn the language using CUSP and it's SBCL 1.0.20 and get to emacs later. Maybe it was a bad advice. 14:27:14 - but Eclipse has heritage in common with CLOS - so can't be bad 14:27:18 jdz: well, it's not RMS' but GNU's: gcl. 14:27:34 all ide's suck - some suck less than others 14:27:49 dcorking: heritage in common with clos? 14:27:52 orivej [~orivej@host-42-152-66-217.spbmts.ru] has joined #lisp 14:28:24 Eclipse is descended from Visual Age Smalltalk; CLOS is descended from Smalltalk-80 14:28:35 (in a manner of speaking) 14:29:17 pnq1 [~nick@AC81A6B9.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 14:29:51 -!- pnq [~nick@AC82D104.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:29:53 pjb: i mean the common lisp mentioned here: http://www.gnu.org/software/libtool/manual/emacs/Manifesto.html 14:30:05 -!- pnq1 is now known as pnq 14:30:17 pjb: i'd also play the empire game, but want to try out the common lisp, first 14:30:21 Anyway - GNU Emacs has a menu bar and a toolbar, so there isn't really anything to learn except 'M-x slime' - imho 14:31:20 I remember Empire. 14:31:31 dcorking: editing text 14:31:48 sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has joined #lisp 14:31:59 it's not much but it's still not CL. 14:32:41 Make him feel comfortable in the familiar Eclipse environment. 14:33:52 imho the development approach in [common] lisp is so much different that throwing him in completely different environment (to help get rid of preconceptions) would actually be better than using the familiar environment 14:34:04 -!- leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:35:11 learning is a thing one has to do with open mind, not trying to minimize the delta from the current knowledge 14:35:28 not gnu but gpl empire : http://www.wolfpackempire.com/history.html 14:37:28 dcorking: damn, they say there's a long history, and list all the different empire games... but what is the game about and how is it played? 14:37:40 naryl, editing text with Emacs is point-and-click with mouse and toolbar - like textedit or notepad - but features like key bindings, commenting, indenting etc take learning - but basic editing: no learning 14:37:52 jdz - I have not a clue :D 14:37:59 xinming [~hyy@122.238.79.11] has joined #lisp 14:38:10 dcorking: never mind, i'll go read wikipedia :) 14:38:32 http://www.wolfpackempire.com/firstfaq.html 14:38:48 dcorking: looks like Battli Isle 14:39:06 naryl, sorry - too many 'but' clauses - will forgive if tldr 14:39:18 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:39:20 -!- elliottcable is now known as ec|detached 14:40:43 Battle Isle was awesome 14:40:44 -!- lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:40:44 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 14:40:46 Empire sounds like a time sink - like MMORPGs :( 14:41:05 dcorking: what isn't a time sink? 14:42:40 a clock is a time source ! 14:42:50 lol 14:42:59 naah, it just shows you how much time you're sinking 14:43:18 it produces time as long as it has power todo so.... 14:43:20 lol 14:43:43 if clocks could produce time i'd buy a dozen 14:44:10 jdz: the Common Lisp that's copyrighted by the FSF, AFAIK is the gcl. 14:44:38 jdz: I didn't check the copyright, it might be copyrighed by others, but since it's called GNU CL, I'd bet it is. 14:44:58 pjb: as far as i know, it's a fork from Kyoto CL 14:45:13 I used to play Empire on a VAX way back when. Very pleasant memories. 14:45:22 I was a wee sprout at the time. 14:45:47 pjb: a little bit of history on the bottom here: http://www.gnu.org/software/gcl/ 14:46:09 Was Empire written in Lisp or something? Not sure how it came up. 14:46:35 ChibaPet: it was supposed to be a part of a GNU system, along with Common Lisp 14:48:30 jdz: there are some various copyrights, but a lot of FSF copyrights in the sources of gcl. 14:48:43 lifeng [~lifeng@bb219-74-171-2.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 14:48:59 -!- mobydick [~textual@124-171-177-47.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 14:49:10 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-uhcdoysaxrmvplph] has joined #lisp 14:49:11 In any case, this GNU project has been a wonderful success. 14:49:15 Yuzu- [~yuzuchan@p5052-ipad406osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:49:25 pjb: well, i would not consider any common lisp a real GNU common lisp until RMS himself has not done a significant contribution to it 14:49:39 -!- leyyer_su [~user@222.212.6.60] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:49:39 the future is a time source; the present is a time sink 14:49:54 *dcorking* is really bad at physics, especially cosmology 14:49:57 dcorking: there is no past 14:50:16 dcorking: it's all only in your head 14:51:11 -!- ec|detached is now known as elliottcable 14:51:20 brain clock ? 14:51:32 there is certainly information about the past 14:51:42 hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 14:52:10 jdz, if I understand special relativity correctly (unlikely), an observer travelling at speed observes my past as simultaneous with his present 14:52:44 dcorking: i'll continue this conversation with pleasure when i see somebody travel at the speed of light 14:52:44 lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:11 so does "the relativity of simultaneity" mean that the past still exists ... 14:53:15 why would he see any past at the speed of light ? 14:53:35 since the speed of light is everywhere the same ? 14:53:38 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-uhcdoysaxrmvplph] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:53:45 ... but you don't need to travel at the speed of light: as long as you are far enough away, you can travel at walking speed 14:53:49 and this has got a bit off-topic... 14:53:53 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-pbvmtvqlqvnwbify] has joined #lisp 14:54:10 sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 14:54:27 er yes sorry - I think there is another channel for this - I started this by mentioning a time sink 14:54:29 -!- Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:54:52 If people who use hash tables (or just largish programs) on SBCL could annotate with the results for their image (warning, might cons a lot and/or kill your image), that would be helpful. 14:56:42 pkhuong: is it only useful for EQ hash tables? 14:57:19 jdz: i'm interesting in EQ hashing, but that doesn't only only happen for EQ hash tables. 14:57:22 *interested even 14:57:29 pkhuong: done 14:57:46 thanks 14:57:49 well, i'm using mostly eql, some equal, and apparently one equalp 14:58:10 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:58:17 slyrus [~chatzilla@99-27-205-152.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:22 jdz: they all punt to EQ. 14:58:40 I want your stats! (: 14:59:41 tcr2 [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 14:59:41 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:59:43 -!- atomx` [~user@86.35.150.23] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:01:18 -!- ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:01:43 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:02:04 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:02:41 pkhuong: how do you want them? 15:02:48 cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 15:02:57 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:02:57 on a silver plate with a cherry on top? 15:03:20 an annotation would do. 15:03:36 pkhuong: running the counting multiple times does not hurt, right? 15:03:57 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 15:04:29 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-pbvmtvqlqvnwbify] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:04:30 right. 15:04:45 -!- aerique [310225@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:05:37 the walking part is what's a bit dangerous, after that, it's all regular code. The only issue is that it walks hash tables, and returns results in a hash table, so if you (walk-hash-tables) multiple times, you could end up introducing noise. 15:05:59 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:06:02 jdz: structure-counts returns 2 values :) 15:06:13 aaargh 15:06:26 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 15:06:33 -!- abeaumont_ [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:06:35 first time i pasted the counting lines verbatim, and of course did not get any results... 15:06:36 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@99-27-205-152.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:07:34 beaumonta [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 15:07:47 ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has joined #lisp 15:10:04 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:12:01 -!- beaumonta [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Client Quit] 15:15:25 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has joined #lisp 15:16:19 -!- orivej [~orivej@host-42-152-66-217.spbmts.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:17:13 zgasma [~mckay@64.55.45.194] has joined #lisp 15:18:58 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:20:09 Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.193.141] has joined #lisp 15:20:23 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-4356673a.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:20:28 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:21:19 glidesurfer [~glidesurf@77-64-171-36.dynamic.primacom.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:56 pkhuong: I have programs which use hash tables a lot. Don't have time now, bug me one of these days 15:22:04 tcr2: k. 15:22:20 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 15:24:19 symbole [~user@50-56-28-56.static.cloud-ips.com] has joined #lisp 15:24:32 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-176-90.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 15:25:41 gadek [~konrad@aahi188.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 15:26:03 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:27:24 Has anyone tried to use mailman with hunchentoot/hunchentoot-cgi)? 15:28:18 -!- trigen_ [c1aca602@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.172.166.2] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:28:23 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.193.141] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:31:36 leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has joined #lisp 15:33:13 -!- chp [~chp@2001:da8:a000:155:5eff:35ff:fe0c:c3ef] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:34:51 iori [~iori@110-133-45-54.rev.home.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:35:20 splittist: that's a lot of (simple-vector 0) ;) 15:41:36 isn't it (: 15:42:21 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:42:26 -!- misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has quit [] 15:43:28 -!- cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:44:38 Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.193.141] has joined #lisp 15:46:26 HG` [~HG@p579F7F5C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:46:51 -!- zgasma [~mckay@64.55.45.194] has left #lisp 15:47:59 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 15:48:00 -!- tcr2 [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:52:53 limetree [~simon@c-23e8e155.1226-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:52:58 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-109-16.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:53:39 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:00:13 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:00:55 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.193.141] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:01:20 Areil [~user@123.20.50.129] has joined #lisp 16:03:44 pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:51 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:48 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.178.229.153] has joined #lisp 16:09:13 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.111.232.25] has joined #lisp 16:09:43 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:12:04 -!- leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:13:46 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 16:14:12 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 16:16:10 masonium [~user@63.118.209.84] has joined #lisp 16:16:35 luke_ [~luke@2.103.110.41] has joined #lisp 16:16:42 enthymeme [~kraken@96.31.242.194] has joined #lisp 16:17:33 Davsebamse [~davse@94.127.49.1] has joined #lisp 16:17:43 -!- Davsebamse [~davse@94.127.49.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:17:47 Davsebamse [~davse@94.127.49.1] has joined #lisp 16:19:09 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 16:24:59 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-aucwnhmqjtckfgvw] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:26:16 -!- pdo [~pdo@217.33.254.141] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:29:18 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.111.232.25] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:29:40 kpreid [~kpreid@nat/google/x-jmbiaekbbbmfxngc] has joined #lisp 16:31:17 -!- Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:31:51 -!- gadek [~konrad@aahi188.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:32:16 francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has joined #lisp 16:32:22 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-4356673a.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:33:15 Hi, not able to find it on the web. what is the sbcl equivalent for the ecl -shell file.lisp command, so script executing the comands in the file and dying ? 16:33:24 is it straightforward? 16:33:47 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d0037d3.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:14 --script? 16:34:44 given a FUNCTION object in SBCL, how can I find where it was defined, or if it's included in the debug info at all? 16:35:43 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.203.172] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:36:14 Bike: Aey right! 16:39:16 You may want to look through the options, listed in man sbcl. 16:39:33 jeremid [~jeremid@ool-18bb5096.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:58 workthrick: sb-introspect:find-definition-source 16:43:06 -!- francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:43:12 pkhuong: thanks 16:47:08 pavelludiq [57f63ac1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 16:48:01 hm sb-introspect could add an :AFTER method to DESCRIBE-OBJECT 16:48:21 for functions, classes, symbols etc. 16:49:18 Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@1807ds2-noe.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 16:49:26 hm actually not that easily it would need swank-source-path.lisp  which actually is inside sb-cover :-) 16:49:51 nixfreak [~Aaron.Mei@mailserver.dayport.com] has joined #lisp 16:50:07 -!- akimbo [~akimbo@cpe-024-163-093-204.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:53:17 workthrick: Did you see the saga of your bug from yesterday? 16:53:56 Xach: yes, you tracked it down to a bug in how that SBCL behaves with :if-exists nil 16:53:59 @pjb do you have any links or papers or info about lisp kernel programming 16:54:06 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-4356673a.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:29 Xach: I'll catch dmitry and see if he can atrribute it to anything (it's his thread-enhanced build) 16:54:36 actually 16:54:44 -!- Guthur [c743cb8d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.141] has quit [Disconnected by services] 16:54:51 I need to check if that leak I have isn't also due to that SBCL 16:55:12 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 16:55:31 since the only reference to the object I'm leaking is a closure that's supposed to be its finaliser, and which *shouldn't* close over it 16:55:42 -!- _joey [~joey@120.19.125.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:55:42 -!- pavelludiq [57f63ac1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.246.58.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:55:56 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:57:06 workthrick: do you have source? 16:57:24 pkhuong: yes, I'm pasting right now 16:57:29 oh wait, to the SBCL? no 16:57:36 no, to the finalisation code 16:58:59 Or, you could build the finalizer in a separate function, and be sure that whatever leakage isn't from the compiler (which I doubt it is) 16:59:13 mathrick pasted "Does this closure look sane?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122254 16:59:37 pkhuong: there 16:59:47 of course it doesn't look sane. 17:00:07 the (format t ".") is my check to see if the finaliser runs 17:00:18 The finaliser has a reference to the object it's finalising. 17:00:26 It's never going to be GCed. 17:00:27 howso? 17:00:36 ooooh, right 17:00:47 pkhuong: I should've spotted it immediately 17:00:53 right, I can fix it now, thanks! 17:01:52 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 17:03:11 foocraft [~ewanas@78.101.84.219] has joined #lisp 17:04:39 nixfreak: nothing specific. Check http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/ and search anything about lisp machines (there are emulators, etc). 17:05:29 lanthan [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:06:20 mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has joined #lisp 17:06:27 Hello Lispers! 17:06:58 pkhuong: it also explicitly breaks the rules trivial-garbage sets for finalisers, now I think of it 17:07:26 Yuzu-_ [~yuzuchan@p5052-ipad406osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:09:40 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:09:40 -!- Yuzu- [~yuzuchan@p5052-ipad406osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:09:47 The spec doesn't say that simple-bit-vector is a pre-defined type specifer. SBCL allows me to specialize a method on simple-bit-vector is this common for most implementations? 17:11:02 mon_key: compare clhs simple-bit-vector with clhs vector. What difference do you notice? 17:12:31 pjb: that bit-vector and string are disjoint subtypes of vector? 17:12:31 mon: In general, have a look at the upgraded-array-element-type. 17:12:57 mon_key: you don't specialize methods on type specifiers, but on classes 17:12:58 My question is apropos that cl:bit-vector is a predefined type 17:13:02 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:13:05 mon: That will tell you if you can use class to differentiate two types of array. 17:13:12 clhs bit-vector 17:13:12 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_bt_vec.htm 17:13:24 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-190.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:13:25 it's all in the spec! 17:13:27 mon_key: the first word of clhs simple-bit-vector is: "Type", while the first two words of clhs vector are: "System Class". 17:13:35 mon_key: what does that tell you? 17:15:41 pjb: Not sure. I'm looking at the section of the spec on "Integrating Types and Classes" whic says: "The class precedence list information specified in the entries for each of these classes are those that are required by the object system." 17:16:26 mon_key: clhs defmethod 17:16:41 what a parameter-specializer-name can be? 17:17:14 mon_key: do you see any class precedence list in clhs simple-bit-vector? 17:17:26 I do for bit-vector. 17:17:35 Don't change the question on the run. 17:17:55 You asked for simple-bit-vector. 17:18:03 mon_key: Just read up on upgraded-array-element-type. 17:18:07 pjb: The question was whether implementations generally allow specialization on simple-bit-vector 17:18:23 mon_key: it's written in clhs defmethod. 17:18:42 Conforming implementations allow specializations on classes. 17:18:44 That's all. 17:18:51 mon: You can test it by checking the upgraded-array-element-type. 17:18:56 Anything else would be an extension, and non-conforming. 17:19:09 So if you want to write a conforming program, you can define a method only on classes, not on types. 17:19:17 mon: If it upgrades to bit, then you can specialize on a corresponding class. 17:19:29 Zhivago: Thanks I'm looking U-A-T 17:19:34 Since simple-bit-vector is specified to be a type, and not a class, a conforming program cannot blindly define a method on simple-bit-vector. 17:19:37 mon: So have a look at the implementatons that you care about and see what they do. 17:20:16 Implementations are allowed to define classes representing additionnal types. But a conforming program couldn't use those classes blindly, since they would not exist in other conforming implementations. 17:20:32 mon: You might consider wrapping the array in a discriminating class. 17:20:37 mon_key: Do not have a look at the implementations that you care, write conforming CL programs! 17:20:41 bit-vectors are required to be specialized 17:20:51 instance, even. 17:20:52 Zhivago is consistently giving bad advices... 17:20:53 pjb: I get it. that is why i ask. 17:20:59 pbj: You do babble a lot. 17:21:43 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-190.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:22:01 So, maybe the best I can probably do is have a method specialized on (object bit-vector) and then check its simple-ness in the body? 17:22:20 mon_key: What are you really trying to do? 17:22:28 why do you need to check this? 17:22:35 -!- lanthan [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:22:53 mon_key: the problem you have is to define method on subclasses that are implementation dependant. First, I don't see how that could be useful. Then, if you define such a method, #+ conditionalized for implementations having those classes, how your program will behave when those methods are not defined? 17:22:56 because i want to specialize on a simple-bit-vector in an :after method. 17:23:03 mon_key: so it's really better to stick to standardized classes. 17:23:04 mon_key: Why? 17:23:06 mon_key: that doesn't make sense 17:23:44 Um, to do what you want to do, you'd first need to check that bit upgrade to bit, then produce a bit-vector, then make an instance and check its class name, and then specialize on that. 17:24:07 Or you could just wrap your array in a trivial instance and use the class of that to discriminate. 17:24:55 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-190.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 17:24:59 bit is required to be upgraded to bit (or equivalent type) 17:25:54 and what upgraded type has anything to do with this at all? 17:26:11 mon_key: any method you define on a super class such as bit-vector will be called for implementation dependant subclasses such as #+sbcl simple-bit-vector. 17:26:14 Xach: because I want to do eql checks on two bit-vectors with very specific properties and IWBN if the implementation could distinguish w/ generic dispatch (and maybe optimize) for them. 17:26:38 stassats: In the general case, it tells you if two array types will be discriminable by class. 17:26:48 in that case you're are actually looking for the (eql ) specializers and singletons? 17:29:31 tcr1: I don't think so b/c wouldn't the implementation have to infer the type of both objects before it tests their eql'ity. 17:29:44 No. 17:30:10 (==> (eql a b) (eql (class-of a) (class-of b))) 17:30:57 pjb right so class-of has to find A and B' 17:31:05 class first? 17:31:11 mon_key: sbcl will open-code equalp on simple bit vectors if you have a check-type for both arguments. 17:31:18 It means the class is irrelevant to eql specifiers. 17:31:20 sorry, equal. 17:31:50 Xach: equal? 17:32:09 mon_key: Are you working with a variety of bit vectors, some of which are simple and some of which are not? 17:32:32 mon_key: so you want to use method selection to choose the right thing depending on which kind you're using at a given time? 17:33:24 Xach: As implemented on SBCL they are only simple-bit-vector. 17:33:30 mon_key: if you're only working with simple bit vectors, (defun bv= (a b) (check-type a simple-bit-vector) (check-type b simple-bit-vector) (equal a b)) inlines the comparison. 17:34:20 bugQ [~bug@c-67-186-255-54.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:41 Xach: I can (and do) declare the lenth of each. Likewise, I directly call `sb-int:bit-vector-='... 17:35:02 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 17:35:39 So the goal is not to make it fast, but to learn about how the type and class system? 17:35:47 clhs bit-eqv 17:35:48 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_bt_and.htm 17:36:10 homie [~levent.gu@xdsl-78-35-171-190.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:36:14 nice one 17:36:16 OliverUv [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has joined #lisp 17:37:05 Xach: The goal is to use sb-ext:define-hash-table-test 17:37:08 stassats: ! nice. 17:37:29 funny api 17:38:11 just misses bit-boole 17:38:20 doesn't bit-eqv allocate a new array? 17:38:51 mon_key: What are you really trying to do? 17:38:55 bit-eqv is not equivalent to equal 17:39:03 mon_key: yeah it's a per-bit comparasion 17:39:07 time for nbit-eqv (-; 17:39:14 mon_key: not necessarily. 17:39:27 antifuchs: mind the &optional 17:39:28 antifuchs: it has an optional argument for that 17:39:28 you can provide the bit-foo functions with an optional third array into which results will be placed. 17:39:44 i use that in the naggum article search to do non-consing results across possibly many bit vectors. 17:40:34 stassats: ahahaha, awesmoe. 17:40:45 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:41:06 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 17:41:51 Xach: I want to hash the bit-vector equivalent of a UUID with specialized bit-vector equivalence test with the eventual goal to incorporate SBCL concurreny/synchronization stuff over top of that. 17:42:53 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:43:05 Xach: I will rexamine usenet-legend. Last time i looked at the BV stuff my brain was already bleeding. 17:43:08 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.41.212.3.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Quit: sleeping] 17:43:29 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 17:45:03 *stassats* expresses his dissatisfaction with cl-typesetting 17:46:13 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:46:41 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81A6B9.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:47:55 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-jawckfnbgvmagoxs] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:48:19 c_arenz [~arenz@195.212.29.172] has joined #lisp 17:55:55 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:57:28 jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-69.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:57:41 cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 17:58:50 and its code doesn't encourage to improve it 17:59:18 "i know, i'll rewrite it from scratch... now i have n+1 problems" 18:01:24 -!- sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:07:43 pavelludiq [57f63ac1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 18:08:58 sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has joined #lisp 18:09:15 gadek [~konrad@aahi188.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:12:04 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:13:11 stassats: but you only have to rewrite the bits you need... 18:13:21 indeed 18:14:15 but they turn out to be quite significant bits 18:16:37 -!- barryfm [~barryfm@fl-71-51-64-129.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:17:07 stassats: as a matter of curiosity, which bits? (pagination, tables, headers/footers,...?) 18:17:20 splittist: yes 18:17:35 all of what you mentioned 18:17:37 automatic numbering? 18:17:45 Can anyone tell me why commonQT is under bsd, and not LGPL like most of the other bindings? 18:17:58 hi :) is the (setf (aref *global-array* 0123) existing-big-obj) operation atomic? I wish to avoid synchronization between workers that have to substitute elements of array (don't mind if some overwrite others work) 18:18:00 luke_: ask lichtblau 18:19:24 "most other bindings"? 18:19:25 splittist: the most important would be the automatic table sizing 18:19:52 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qt_%28toolkit%29#Bindings 18:20:54 Just a bit curious, since pretty much all of them are LGPL or GPL : P 18:21:07 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:21:19 -!- z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:21:27 luke_: lispers are old school and love BSD or MIT. 18:22:13 z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 18:22:51 we love freedom 18:22:53 luke_: I think it's valid for a BSD thing to bind to an LGPL thing 18:22:59 pjb agrees 18:23:47 also, see http://opensource.franz.com/preamble.html - That the 'LLGPL' exists at all indicates that some people aren't entirely comfortable with the implications of LGPL in lisp 18:24:29 -!- xan_ [~xan@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:26:31 astoon [~chatzilla@nat105-249-205-109.tvoe.tv] has joined #lisp 18:29:21 how can I answer this without opening up a licensing discussion? 18:29:27 gadek: I do not believe it would atomic, but you'd probably get away with it for the most part if that's the only writer and the rest are readers 18:29:28 privmsg? 18:30:16 -!- nixfreak [~Aaron.Mei@mailserver.dayport.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:30:35 gadek: the problem is if you have multiple writers is that their data can actually interleave on collision, instead of one writer's write 'winning', in a multicore system 18:31:07 gadek: in SBCL/x86-64, the write itself will be atomic, so no interleaving. 18:31:25 except for sub-octet element types 18:31:52 On x86, complexes won't be atomic either. It's all highgly implementation dependent and rarely specified. 18:32:02 pkhuong: it will be written by the whole word still, won't it? 18:32:12 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:32:19 there are some really weird edge cases in cache coherence 18:32:26 Phooodus: not in SBCL. 18:32:48 so the writes aren't just plain memory writes? 18:33:13 yes they are. 18:33:22 then what prevents interleaving? 18:33:32 the x86[-64] memory model. 18:33:46 that's news to me 18:34:14 *Phooodus* sees if he can find his references about all the memory damage that's possible in unlocked write collisions 18:34:26 even within a single machine word 18:34:48 of course, they're extreme edge cases, so there's a good chance they just "mostly" don't happen in practice 18:35:32 Make sure they apply to aligned accesses on non-OOStore x86, and don't refer to the useless memory model intel had [on paper] before ~2009(?). 18:35:48 -!- TristamWrk [8071f149@gateway/web/freenode/ip.128.113.241.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:36:36 luke_: I chose BSD-style because I like that license. The primary reason I like it is that it's very popular in the Lisp community (sic) that uses free software. Also, a BSD wrapper that dynamically loads an LGPL library is a clean situation license-wise, so that works out nicely. 18:37:35 tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 18:37:41 pkhuong: in SBCL/x86 too? I need multiple writers... :( 18:37:55 The only other CL binding for smoke is cl-smoke, and it's actually not LGPL but rather GPL-with-preamble. The latter is a really fine license IMHO, but I made a different choice for my project. 18:38:14 I can imagine that those "other bindings" not written in Lisp would use the LGPL; they don't have the Lisp-specific technical issues to consider, so it's a fine license for them. 18:38:34 gadek: are you sure that's what you want? In the best care, if three threads write to the same location, you'll get one of the value written, but there's no way to tell which 18:38:36 LLGPL isn't even an option, it's bizarre gibberish. 18:38:51 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:39:17 gadek: many times doing things the "right way" instead of quick hacks, leads to faster & better code 18:39:48 Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:40:05 pkhuong: it's in genetic algo., cells selected on a rather big table (~1M elements) by 3 independent workers so I don't care which one would be wrote ultimately 18:40:40 pnq [~nick@AC81AA5B.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 18:40:57 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 18:41:17 Phooodus: but all I need is a very very fast code so I'd like to forget about synch (too slow) 18:42:26 like I said, big proper code can surprise you with unintuitive speed gains 18:42:47 unless you've already got it working and are optimizing known bottlenecks 18:42:51 Ah thanks. I much prefer it aswell. :) 18:44:16 Ok, so couple double float writes are fishy as well.. 18:44:34 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.178.229.153] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:45:04 pkhuong: I can't seem to google-fu it. It was some game developer showing very particular sub-machine word collisions in very tight code. But I can't guarantee it was post-2009, so I can't say it's still valid 18:45:31 stis [~stis@host-90-235-96-232.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 18:45:36 the memory model actually implemented pre-2009 was usually stronger than what's available now. 18:45:52 what happened in 2009 18:45:59 rapture 18:46:05 ;) 18:46:08 Intel published a useful memory ordering white paper. 18:46:42 hehe, so we were all living in ignorance before 2009 18:46:48 It was some time around last year or the one before. It used to be x86 implemented a very strong model but guaranteed next to nothing. 18:47:11 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:47:47 Guthur: no, but people who cared knew that the difference between the spec and reality was so wide that it made sense to code to the implementation instead of the useless spec. 18:47:50 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:59 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:49:48 umm, the link seems to dead on intels site 18:50:03 -!- inklesspen [~jon@inklesspen.com] has left #lisp 18:50:08 -!- Areil [~user@123.20.50.129] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:50:08 was it Intel® 64 Architecture Memory Ordering White Pape 18:50:16 paper* 18:51:05 it's in the System programming guide now. 18:51:48 -!- cbp [~Cesar@189.139.219.96] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:54:34 -!- foocraft [~ewanas@78.101.84.219] has quit [Quit: if you're going....to san. fran. cisco!!!] 18:55:50 -!- HG` [~HG@p579F7F5C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:56:46 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 18:58:50 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:00:07 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 19:00:30 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@195.212.29.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:00:37 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:38 HG` [~HG@p579F7151.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:09 -!- skeptical_p [~rononovsk@109.65.184.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:04:41 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81AA5B.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:05:55 -!- Davsebamse [~davse@94.127.49.1] has quit [Quit: Davsebamse] 19:06:17 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-77-32.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:12:17 lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@77.16.129.218.tmi.telenormobil.no] has joined #lisp 19:19:22 cbp [cbp@189.247.202.212] has joined #lisp 19:20:22 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-4356673a.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 19:20:50 nixfreak [~Aaron.Mei@mailserver.dayport.com] has joined #lisp 19:20:53 http://www.advogato.org/person/johnw/diary/12.html 19:20:59 Open Genera on linux 19:21:24 -!- doc_who [~doc_who@pool-108-18-142-175.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:21:29 its really a shame that these wonderfull OS's didn't replace windows 19:21:39 old news are old 19:22:14 Night-hacks [~nullpoint@95.38.52.69] has joined #lisp 19:24:58 -!- Calyce [~julie@10.110-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:25:46 nixfreak, squeak and pharo are rather sweet os-like environments a little like open genera - they run cross platform too - but they don't speak lisp (only smalltalk and a few experimental and educational languages) 19:26:27 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@75.95.236.229] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:29:05 yeah the article I was looking at mentions squeak 19:29:10 markymark [~markymark@unaffiliated/markymark] has joined #lisp 19:29:30 just thought it would be fun to get a lisp machine up and working 19:29:51 Doesn't seem to be. 19:30:37 Davsebamse [~davse@gate.ipvision.dk] has joined #lisp 19:32:04 well #racket is dead; would you all mind helping with my homework? :P 19:32:31 bugQ: Just say "racket" three times, and eli will spring to your rescue. 19:33:29 bugQ: you can try #scheme 19:33:32 how do I pass that last test without adding .0 to the 9? http://paste.lisp.org/display/122261 (racket racket racket) 19:33:39 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:33:42 bugQ: Try it in another channel. 19:33:49 sure 19:34:35 lol 19:36:09 -!- sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:36:23 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:36:30 Hum. What's the license on closer-mop?! 19:37:00 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:37:26 I'm planning on using it widely in the near future so that would be a fun thing to know... 19:38:23 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:39:08 sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has joined #lisp 19:40:17 Ok, so I'll ask its author to release that information to the world. 19:40:23 -!- cbp [cbp@189.247.202.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:40:35 Is it not in the source somewhere? 19:40:50 Well, if it's somewhere in there, it's not prominent enough! 19:42:10 I'm having a bit of a "what-am-I-getting-into" moment. Guess I'll have to get on to improve things on the MOP side. 19:43:23 -!- markymark [~markymark@unaffiliated/markymark] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:43:23 it's in the :licence field of the asdf definition. 19:43:33 BSD 19:44:03 Oh. I was looking for a LICENSE file and stuff. Thanks. 19:44:09 -!- gadek [~konrad@aahi188.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:44:13 There's not even a README! 19:45:37 What shall we read? 19:45:47 Kneferilis [5d6d8465@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.109.132.101] has joined #lisp 19:49:13 pkhuong: "closer-mop is a Common Lisp library providing a compatibility layer to functionality specified in The Art of the Meta-Object Protocol but not currently supported uniformly across implementations." ? 19:53:07 -!- Night-hacks [~nullpoint@95.38.52.69] has left #lisp 19:53:31 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@vpnsh0054.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 19:54:14 -!- Davsebamse [~davse@gate.ipvision.dk] has quit [Quit: Davsebamse] 19:54:29 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 19:54:34 cl-cairo2 sure had a lot of object ownership bugs 19:56:29 pinterface [~pinterfac@173-20-55-85.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 19:56:58 just thought it would be fun to get a lisp machine up and working <-- I ran opengenera on linux for some time, honestly it's pretty painful to use. Of course it's not exactly the same as running on hardware it was designed for, but frankly, the UI is rather horrible from today's perspective 19:57:40 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-170-76.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:58:17 kruhft [~burton@S0106002401f331bd.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:33 CLIM is neat, but we also have McCLIM. Requiring a PhD just to be able to scroll windows without taking 5s to think which button does it, or running everything in the same image so that the OS goes down when you sneeze accidentally in the direction of a critical component isn't 19:59:09 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:00:26 with emacs I turn off just about every gui element I can, besides the actual window of course 20:00:38 and I find it rather useable 20:00:55 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:00:59 -!- specbot [~specbot@tiger.common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:01:03 i do that as well...just window; the rest is fluff 20:02:00 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-248.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:03:25 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 20:03:47 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@vpnsh0054.fh-trier.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:04:08 found out how to do multi-tty mode today 20:04:13 pretty nifty 20:04:19 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@vpnsh0054.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 20:05:09 kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.237.227] has joined #lisp 20:05:39 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 20:06:36 never tried it 20:07:20 it lets you run emacs as a server and then connect to it 20:07:29 do a M-x server-start 20:07:36 and then in a console do emacsclient -c 20:07:48 opens a new window attached to the original emacs you started the server in 20:07:56 you can launch graphical emacsclients, too. 20:08:12 i'm just using it to attach to my running emacs at home over ssh 20:08:17 I run emacs in text mode 20:09:03 i'm building emacs on a powerpc 885 133Mhz with 64 megs of ram right now 20:09:14 Soulman1 [~knute@250.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:09:19 *sykopomp* is IRCing through an emacsclient he SSHed into. 20:09:55 i think it might take a while 20:09:57 kruhft: oof. 20:10:14 hehe, rather nifty indeed 20:10:41 it is, isn't it 20:10:45 I may never interact with my VPS the same again 20:10:56 VPS? 20:11:29 Virtual Private Server 20:11:33 ah 20:11:52 they're quite reasonably priced these days 20:12:17 well i just use my home box as a RPS (real private server) :) 20:12:31 amazon has a free tier of their EC2 which is quite nice 20:12:33 I really don't use mine enough to be honest, the very rare bit of web development, and running an email server 20:12:57 i haven't looked into that stuff much 20:13:55 last time i ran a mail server i just ended up taking it down 20:14:06 kept getting hit by tiwanese spammers 20:14:29 -!- basho__ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-236-244.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:14:32 i've been really impressed with the amazon services i've used (price, ease of use and stability) 20:14:32 no matter how many ip's i blocked it would just keep coming back from new ones 20:14:38 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-248.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:14:46 msmith [~msmith@75-150-13-105-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:58 ***msmith enters 20:15:00 i was impressed with amazon...i ordered 3 books and they showed up in 2 days 20:15:09 -!- msmith [~msmith@75-150-13-105-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has left #lisp 20:15:20 i was shocked, plus i ordered on the weekend 20:15:37 yeah they sell books as well, hehe 20:16:04 considering they're the only place i can find stuff that's interesting i consider that a pretty strong point 20:16:29 picked up PAIP, Practical Common Lisp and a book on CLOS...nowhere to be found at any of my bookstores around here 20:16:33 books always take a while to get here - canada + island == slow mail service 20:16:49 i'm from vancouver island 20:16:58 if that's where you're talking about 20:17:00 lol kruhft, me too 20:17:07 where you living? 20:17:13 ladysmith, you? 20:17:22 i'm in calgary right now but i'm from campbell river 20:17:45 wow man, that's amazing - there are so few tech people here 20:17:46 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-69.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:17:51 (at least i find that) 20:18:03 i haven't lived on the island since about...1993 or so 20:18:12 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 20:18:22 i work from home though and don't get out much, so maybe that's why :) 20:18:40 left after highschool.. then vancouver, los angeles, vancouver, regina now calgary 20:18:55 nice, no plans on coming back? 20:19:08 _6502_ [5e24fd14@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.253.20] has joined #lisp 20:19:10 i come back to see my dad every once and a while but i don't think i'd ever move back 20:19:17 don't think i'd be able to find any work 20:19:24 wccoder: geeks don't tend to come out of the woodwork without a reason 20:19:34 not much computer engineering work out there 20:19:53 that's what i said too, about not finding work. once your network (people-wise) is big enough it's like drinking from a firehose 20:20:25 true, but i'm not a very good networker, or well, i haven't been. i keep trying but nobody ever sticks really 20:20:31 it's easier to be a big fish in a small pond 20:20:55 canadas a pretty small pond when it comes to tech 20:20:57 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d0037d3.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:21:28 i don't work for locals, or at least i haven't yet 20:21:34 mainly peeps from vancouver 20:21:47 i would think so 20:21:55 what kind of work do you do? 20:22:00 <_6502_> is gray matter still active? 20:22:27 *kruhft* thinks of breaking bad when he hears the company grey matter 20:22:35 freelance dev work - mainly wordpress themes, plugins and some custom LAMP development 20:22:49 <_6502_> oh... sorry 20:22:57 <_6502_> i barely know the name 20:23:05 no problem, it's just kinda funny 20:23:23 <_6502_> long ago i was caressing the idea to move to canada and that was an interesting name 20:24:11 this is all i can find under that name: http://www.graymattersystems.com/ 20:24:14 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-144-198.lns10.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:51 mydik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:28 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:25:43 <_6502_> it was like 15 years ago... not sure it was this company 20:26:11 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-246-122.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:26:15 <_6502_> i remember they were had positions in montreal 20:26:28 <_6502_> i remember that because the girl i was interested in was from montreal :-D 20:27:05 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c711b3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:32 dnyrgr [~drg@c-76-109-247-175.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:43 <_6502_> "Can be best viewed with browser IE 6.0 and heigher." 20:30:16 the company i work for has requirements for IE 6 20:30:41 most engineering companies are stuck with archaic version requirements for MS software and IE 20:31:06 <_6502_> people using IE6 should be given a fine 20:31:07 hope they're having fun getting abandoned by their vendor 20:31:21 <_6502_> like for people going around without a smog check :-D 20:31:58 i don't make the rules, i just work by them 20:32:00 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-209-154.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:06 gotta get paid somehow 20:32:26 <_6502_> they are spreading viruses, and also getting damaged by them and therefore they end up annoying relatives that know more than them about computers 20:33:11 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-144-198.lns10.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:33:18 ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 20:33:34 _6502_: almost no non-IT-departmented person has ie6 anymore. the primary offenders are people who can either use it or quit their jobs 20:33:36 these are supposed to be 'internal' systems so i don't think they're used for general purpose web browsing 20:35:11 -!- bugQ [~bug@c-67-186-255-54.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:35:28 <_6502_> antifuchs: IEx :-P... every single time i write something with javascript/html i get something that works or mostly works on firefox, chrome, safari, opera, my android browser and whatnot.... basically almost everything with one single exception: IE 20:36:01 _6502_: i've had the same problem; then you basically have to rewrite the whole thing to get it to work in IE 20:36:20 <_6502_> antifuchs: i decided i will never ever spend even a microsecond of my time to make things work for IE... unless paid to do so, of course 20:36:22 markymark [~markymark@unaffiliated/markymark] has joined #lisp 20:36:26 snearch [~snearch@f053003204.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:36:27 spacemagic [~chatzilla@c-24-245-21-197.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:46 anyway to get something like this to work > (loop :for (x y) :across #(#(1 2 3) #(4 5 6)) :append (list x y)) 20:36:56 -!- dcorking [~dcorking@82.152.210.11] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:37:06 where the output is (1 2 4 5) 20:37:24 works with #((1 2 3) (4 5 6)) 20:39:07 -!- ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:39:46 back in a bit 20:39:53 Guthur: use parallel fors. 20:41:41 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-209-154.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:42:56 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-180-15.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:44:43 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053003204.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 20:46:36 ubii [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:42 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-156-41.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:38 ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has joined #lisp 20:52:00 pnq [~nick@AC81A644.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 20:52:25 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:52:58 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 20:54:03 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-246-26.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:11 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-156-41.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:54:17 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:54:53 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81A644.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:56:01 xan_ [~xan@94.Red-83-57-126.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:54 pnq [~nick@AC81A644.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 20:57:03 francogrex [~user@109.130.219.47] has joined #lisp 20:57:14 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.219.47] has quit [Client Quit] 20:57:42 -!- Kneferilis [5d6d8465@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.109.132.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:58:30 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 20:58:46 mattrepl [~mattrepl@64.134.65.64] has joined #lisp 20:59:41 -!- stis [~stis@host-90-235-96-232.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:01:26 -!- HG` [~HG@p579F7151.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:04:08 akimbo [~akimbo@cpe-024-163-093-204.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:05:19 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:30 -!- pavelludiq [57f63ac1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.246.58.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:07:13 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 21:09:48 Pathin [~root@gladsheim.nullbytestudios.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:26 JamezQ [~james@205.155.154.125] has joined #lisp 21:11:19 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@vpnsh0054.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:11:31 -!- Pathin [~root@gladsheim.nullbytestudios.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:11:54 pkhuong, what's the syntax for that? 21:12:11 (loop for a ... for b ...) 21:12:29 -!- 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Pathin [~root@gladsheim.nullbytestudios.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:18:47 Pathin [~root@gladsheim.nullbytestudios.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:26 Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:23:15 -!- JamezQ [~james@205.155.154.125] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:23:35 JamezQ [~james@205.155.154.125] has joined #lisp 21:23:50 pkhuong, ah yes that'll do it, cheers 21:24:06 Joreji_ [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:25:08 -!- kleppari_ [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:28:53 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:29:23 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:29:50 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:32:32 Has anyone ever tried hunchentoot-cgi? 21:33:32 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:34:21 don't think many people ever hve 21:34:35 -!- Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@1807ds2-noe.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:34:39 glidesurfer: better to put HT behind a reverse proxy that can also execute cgi (: 21:34:46 (or not use cgi (-:) 21:35:36 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@h9n5c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Quit: add^_] 21:35:45 I just want to use mailman with it... but I can't run cgi script with it at all 21:35:55 *scripts 21:36:00 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 21:36:00 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 21:36:00 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 21:36:06 -!- tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Quit: gone] 21:36:28 yeah, I wouldn't trust it (: 21:36:39 Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:37:36 I'm looking at it's source code at the moment... 21:39:04 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-185-93.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:37 (defun create-cgi-dispatcher-and-handler (uri-prefix base-path &optional content-type) <-- this makes me think that (create-cgi-dispatcher-and-handler "cgi/" "www/") should make access to http://example.org/cgi/foo possible... 21:41:04 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.236.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:41:13 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:41:31 -!- varjag [~eugene@162.163.9.46.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:41:35 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 21:41:41 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 21:44:20 luke__ [~luke@2.103.110.14] has joined #lisp 21:44:32 -!- luke_ [~luke@2.103.110.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:45:08 -!- sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:46:42 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 21:47:08 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:47:09 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-77-32.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has left #lisp 21:51:12 -!- JamezQ [~james@205.155.154.125] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:51:58 ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:52:09 JamezQ [~james@205.155.154.125] has joined #lisp 21:55:11 -!- cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-183-202-185.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:55:42 paging someone with uncommon web experience 21:55:47 Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:56:26 Joreji_ [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:56:59 -!- elliottcable is now known as eliottcable 21:57:13 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-203-50.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:34 felideon [~felideon@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:41 tempire: you're the sunlisp perl guy! 21:57:52 lol ^ 21:57:57 that's me! 21:58:41 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:58:42 I knew I was pretty...but didn't know I was pretty enough to be recognized over irc 21:58:52 guess I've leveled up ;) 21:58:56 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 21:58:56 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 21:58:56 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 21:59:34 felideon: your blog entry was helpful and easier to consume than the ucw txt file 21:59:39 -!- eliottcable is now known as Mikoangelo 21:59:44 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:59:50 tempire: you can join #ucw and wait a few days (without disconnecting from irc) for an answer 22:00:00 tempire: thank you 22:01:06 is there any way to access an unexported symbol from an inherited package? 22:01:23 though I suspect that's horrible practice, even if possible 22:01:23 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:01:34 -!- Mikoangelo is now known as _sully 22:01:38 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:01:49 -!- _sully is now known as elliottcable 22:01:52 tempire: export it, or use :: 22:02:09 pkg::unexported vs pkg:exported 22:02:20 doh. forgot about that. 22:02:50 tempire: http://gigamonkeys.com/book 22:04:06 yeah, looking at the packages chapter now. just slipped my mine. 22:05:40 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:06:26 -!- splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:06:37 *mind 22:07:34 -!- homie [~levent.gu@xdsl-78-35-171-190.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:08:01 -!- mydik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:09:10 is there any decent documentation on reading/parsing xml files with cxml, xmls or the like? 22:09:26 i get as far as parsing the file and thats about it 22:10:04 http://common-lisp.net/project/cxml/ ? 22:10:13 mydik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:54 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-185-93.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 22:11:50 once i parse the xml document do i need to serialize it? 22:12:20 perseus` [~perseus@ec2-50-16-101-220.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 22:12:24 -!- luke__ [~luke@2.103.110.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:12:29 -!- JamezQ [~james@205.155.154.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:12:44 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 22:12:44 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 22:12:44 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 22:13:04 akimbo: only if you want to have a printed representation. 22:13:13 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-185-93.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:40 my goal is to parse the xml document and iterate through child nodes only capturing and <content> 22:14:16 <pkhuong> I like cxml-stp, for its DOM-style interface. 22:14:23 <akimbo> from the code ive seen it looks like parsing the file and turning it into xmls compatible expressions 22:14:59 <Bacteria> Morning lisp humans. 22:15:02 <akimbo> ok let me look at cxml-stp 22:15:18 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-185-93.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:16:37 <Guthur> akimbo, check if cxml and plexippus-xpath might fill your needs 22:16:41 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-185-93.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:55 <akimbo> ah xpath ok ill look at that one too 22:17:05 <akimbo> can do some filtering with that i suppose? 22:17:20 <Guthur> yep, it slots in nicely to cxml 22:17:33 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:17:46 splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 22:17:59 <akimbo> cool thanks 22:21:24 -!- sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:22:08 -!- splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:22:08 -!- jweiss [~user@cpe-069-134-063-238.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:22:14 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:22:41 <_6502_> is there a way to specify a reasonable indenting rule for "labels"/"macrolet" in emacs? 22:23:00 <_6502_> like the one used for defun i mean 22:23:29 <pkhuong> I like whatever slime makes emacs do. 22:23:36 <beach> Good morning everyone! 22:23:57 Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:23:58 <kenanb> morning beach 22:24:02 Joreji_ [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:24:12 -!- lichtblau [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:24:55 <_6502_> i am in slime mode but still inside labels i gen the function body aligned to the parameter list 22:25:04 <beach> Bacteria: New here? 22:25:08 <_6502_> gen=get 22:25:32 leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has joined #lisp 22:25:48 <beach> _6502_: Do you use the contribution slime-indentation? 22:26:31 <_6502_> beach: that's a tough question... i think i've enabled only something named slime-fancy ... let me check 22:26:41 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 22:27:08 Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.193.141] has joined #lisp 22:27:46 <_6502_> beach: not even that... it's in the require line, correct? what should i put there? 22:27:51 -!- bohanlon [~bohanlon@66.170.231.233] has quit [Quit: Off to Boston] 22:27:59 <beach> slime-indentation as I recall. 22:28:04 <beach> _6502_: I am no SLIME expert but I get correct indentation, and that is what I do. 22:28:17 <_6502_> ok i'll google a it 22:28:25 <beach> _6502_: Then, I haven't reinstalled for a while, maybe it has been broken lately. 22:28:37 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:29:12 <pkhuong> same here; I don't use slime-fancy, but slime-indentation is in my slime-setup list. 22:29:36 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-180-15.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:29:41 luke__ [~luke@2.103.110.122] has joined #lisp 22:31:02 <lisppaste> akimbo pasted "xml parse fail" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122266 22:31:19 <akimbo> im not sure why im getting the error in ^ 22:32:29 Deathaholic [~Mococa@177.42.193.141] has joined #lisp 22:32:39 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.193.141] has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:32:47 <pkhuong> akimbo: have you considered reading the documentation? 22:33:02 <akimbo> i have been 22:33:02 -!- Deathaholic is now known as Mococa 22:33:17 <akimbo> thats how ive gotten this far already 22:33:24 <pkhuong> when you pass a string to cxml:parse, the string is parsed as XML. 22:33:33 <pkhuong> You want either a pathname or a stream. 22:33:43 <_6502_> beach/pkhung: ok... now works correctly, thanks 22:33:56 <beach> _6502_: No problem. 22:33:57 <akimbo> ah i see 22:34:20 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:34:46 <Bacteria> beach: Indeed I am. 22:34:47 <_6502_> pkhung=pkhuong 22:36:35 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81A644.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:37:12 <Bacteria> I'm thinking of getting into lisp and using it for a major project. However, people tell me I shouldn't bother/I should be using java or python instead. 22:37:26 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-185-93.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 22:37:29 splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 22:37:52 <_6502_> an unused lexical is going to be optimized away? i'm trying to write a macro but to avoid code walking I may define some lexical in excess... is that a problem? 22:37:56 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:38:00 <pjb> Bacteria: check http://cliki.net/Performance 22:38:05 -!- limetree [~simon@c-23e8e155.1226-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:38:14 <Bacteria> Ah, awesome, thanks pjb 22:38:25 <beach> Bacteria: People say a lot of strange things. 22:39:10 <beach> Bacteria: For instance, this article: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/Essays/psychology.html explains why some of them might say that. 22:39:33 <slyrus> antifuchs: I have 22:39:41 <slyrus> I mean glidesurfer, I have 22:39:54 <beach> Hey slyrus 22:40:22 <Bacteria> Indeed they do. I'm studying as a biochemist, although I grew up programming in C/C++. But I find my self doing a lot of bioinformatics analysis of experimental data. None of the currently available packages do what I want and coding in C/C++ takes way too much time, and python is still a little awkward. 22:40:35 <slyrus> hey beach 22:40:42 bugQ [~bug@c-67-186-255-54.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:40:46 <ChibaPet> Bacteria, you're not using Perl for that? Surprising. 22:41:03 <slyrus> Bacteria: you might want to check out my cl-bio package 22:41:13 <Bacteria> Oooo 22:41:14 <slyrus> and chemicl 22:41:27 <Bacteria> I most certainly will check that out! 22:41:39 v0|d [~user@93.94.250.121] has joined #lisp 22:41:41 -!- splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:41:51 <v0|d> tirinim. 22:42:09 <slyrus> glidesurfer, antifuchs: http://git.cyrusharmon.org/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi is an example of a page being served by hunchentoot-cgi 22:42:23 <slyrus> (now I've done it, I'm sure the hackers will be knocking at the door now :) ) 22:42:53 <slyrus> Bacteria: https://github.com/slyrus/cl-bio 22:43:10 <Bacteria> Excellent. 22:43:15 <Bacteria> Thanks slyrus 22:43:19 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@64.134.65.64] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 22:44:39 <Bacteria> Once I'm competent in lisp, I might be able to port some of my other algorithms across. 22:45:20 <pkhuong> What's that biobike thing? 22:45:49 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 22:46:49 <pjb> pkhuong: when you extend the DNA, it goes to the Moon, so of course, you need a bicycle to run over it. 22:46:50 <bugQ> slyrus, you rewrote gitweb in cl? :P 22:47:07 <antifuchs> bugQ: no, he's just running the cgi script from hunchentoot 22:47:33 -!- ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:49:36 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:50:33 <_6502_> to see if a key is present is in an hash table i've to use multiple-value-bind ??? 22:50:44 -!- kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.237.227] has left #lisp 22:51:02 <Hexstream> _6502_: You could use NTH-VALUE if you don't care about the actual value. 22:51:37 <pkhuong> You can pass a default value you know won't be in the table. 22:51:56 <_6502_> hexstream: oh... ok, just a bit less ugly , thanks 22:52:12 <antifuchs> pkhuong: a great way of introducing bugs later on, that (-: 22:52:16 <_6502_> pkhuong: you mean a gensym? 22:52:39 <Hexstream> _6502_: If you're going to be using a gensym, might as well test the second value... 22:52:52 <beach> _6502_: Or the value of (list nil) 22:52:55 <pkhuong> antifuchs: depends on the nonce. Lexical scoping and, say, CONS, are pretty good for unforgeable tokens. 22:53:06 <pjb> _6502_: if you ensure that no value stored in the hash-table is ever null, then you can just use (gethash k tab) 22:53:31 <antifuchs> yeah, in those cases nth-value is really more readable (: 22:53:36 <_6502_> i'll go for nth-value 22:53:36 <pkhuong> or you could just use the second return value, and *gasp* write a function if you need to do that often. 22:54:29 <_6502_> but do you guys understand that this is a very basic operation that anyone that has been programming since 1980 expects to be easy? 22:54:47 <_6502_> lisp is not shining here 22:54:48 <pkhuong> which is why it's directly available as the second return value. 22:54:50 <_6502_> CL i mean 22:54:55 <Hexstream> With slime from the latest Quicklisp dist if I go into the inspector and press Q to quit it, it doesn't work and I get: "funcall: Wrong number of arguments: (lambda nil "Quit the inspector and kill the buffer." (interactive) [...]" 22:54:57 <beach> _6502_: Use a different language. 22:55:10 <pjb> _6502_: the first principle of The Lisp Programmer, is: "Do not shoot in your foot.". 22:55:38 <_6502_> beach: no... you guys should make a better CL :-) 22:55:51 <_6502_> ok... back to coding 22:55:56 <pjb> _6502_: if you map strings to functions, why do you want to test the second value of get hash? No function can ever be NIL! 22:56:20 <pjb> _6502_: yes, back to coding. There are better things to do than to imagine one could design a better CL. 22:57:02 <_6502_> pjb: i want to map parameter values to the function return value .... i can't know what a function may want to return 22:57:03 <pkhuong> (defun 6502-gethash (key table default) (multiple-value-call (lambda (x y) (values y x)) (gethash key table default))). I suppose that's more convenient if you're from the 80s. 22:57:18 splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 22:57:44 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 22:58:04 <_6502_> pkhuong: in python this is "x in M" 22:58:43 <pkhuong> In CL, as well! (defun in (key table) (nth-value 1 (gethash key table))). 22:58:59 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.193.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:59:01 <pjb> _6502_: in this circumstance, you will need both the value and the indicator; use multiple-value-bind. 22:59:26 <pkhuong> pjb: no, no, it's much better if the convenient way is also inefficient. 22:59:27 <_6502_> pjb: true... 22:59:49 <glidesurfer> slyrus: ah, are you the author of hunchentoot-cgi? 22:59:55 <_6502_> so multiple-value-bind is the way... 23:00:20 -!- Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:00:36 <pkhuong> It's like providing both the quotient and the remainder for integer division. Clearly you should be making two separate function calls and rely on a smart compiler instead of exploiting multiple return values. 23:00:53 <_6502_> oh... talking about efficiency... is there a way to do a single lookup/insert if the value is missing? 23:01:32 <pjb> (setf (gethash k v) (gethask k v default)) 23:01:34 -!- splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:01:47 <pkhuong> pjb: that's pretty inefficient. 23:01:55 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 23:01:57 <_6502_> pjb: and the compiler is that smart? 23:02:00 <pjb> That's pretty efficient in my time. 23:02:12 <pkhuong> _6502_: implementation dependent. The setf-expansion may or may not be smart about caching some things. 23:02:12 <pjb> http://cliki.net/Performance 23:02:20 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 23:02:25 <pkhuong> Or the hash table itself may do some caching. 23:02:32 <Hexstream> _6502_: (defun in-hash-p (key table &optional default) (multiple-value-bind (value foundp) (gethash key table default) (when foundp (lambda () value)))) 23:02:52 <pkhuong> *that* is an operation that could have been useful. 23:03:10 <Hexstream> See? Now you just call this function to test if the value exists, and if you furthermore want to know what the value is, you call the returned value. 23:03:39 <pkhuong> Hexstream: you could just have returned nil or a singleton 23:04:42 <Hexstream> pkhuong: He was complaining that he can't test if the value exists in one easy operation while retaining the ability to get the value if needed, I think... 23:05:13 -!- felideon [~felideon@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:05:21 <lisppaste> Phoodus pasted "hashtable foo" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122267 23:05:23 <pjb> That said, I observed that this kind of manipulation is dependent on the application of the hash-table. I see no point in implementing those general functions, since they won't be what is wanted in some or most of the cases. 23:05:29 <pkhuong> and if you want the sort of interface you provided, it would have be simpler for pretty much everyone to either return nil or a singleton list. 23:05:48 -!- xan_ [~xan@94.Red-83-57-126.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:06:03 -!- `fogus-away [~fogus@pool-96-255-210-172.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: thunking] 23:06:13 <Hexstream> Ohh, I didn't get what you meant by "singleton list". Yeah, that would make more sense. 23:06:19 <Hexstream> get what you mean* 23:06:26 <pkhuong> pjb: a hash-table read-modify-write operation would definitely be a nice generally useful hash-table function. 23:06:49 <Hexstream> I was more going for hilarity than practicality though ;P 23:07:17 <pjb> _6502_: for example, since you map to functions, I'd bet at one time you want to call those functions. You might be better served in writting: (funcall (gethash key table (function what-to-do-when-key-is-not-in-table))) 23:07:19 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-164-21.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:07:31 <Phooodus> or see my hash-if I pasted 23:07:46 <pjb> err, it's not exactly your case, but you get the drift. 23:08:20 _fogus_ [~fogus@pool-96-255-210-172.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:35 <Hexstream> Phooodus: hash-if and hash-when would be much more idiomatic with an extra pair of parentheses around "var key table". 23:11:04 <Phooodus> as it is, it matches with our other internal macros 23:11:25 -!- iori [~iori@110-133-45-54.rev.home.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:11:26 <Phooodus> but of course, season to taste 23:11:43 <Hexstream> So you're consistent with your inconsistence with respect to idiomatic style ;P 23:12:17 <Phooodus> yes, or no for various scopes of idiomatic style :) 23:14:01 foocraft [~ewanas@78.101.84.219] has joined #lisp 23:14:11 <Hexstream> Hum... defmacro-export? Do you have a full set of foo-export? defun-export, defclass-export, defgeneric-export, etc?? 23:14:29 <Phooodus> most of them 23:14:58 -!- dnyrgr [~drg@c-76-109-247-175.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:14:59 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:15:15 Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.193.141] has joined #lisp 23:15:23 <Hexstream> How long have you been doing CL?... 23:15:31 <Phooodus> of course, defstruct-export and defclass-export get pretty hairy, having to peer into the shape to extract all the slot accessors to export them 23:15:36 <Phooodus> hmm 23:15:56 <Phooodus> maybe 4 or 5 years? haven't really kept track 23:16:05 <antifuchs> and you don't want to export some accessors sometimes 23:16:09 <antifuchs> and what about slot names? 23:16:39 <stassats> who needs such atrocities when you have C-c x (slime-export-symbol-at-point) and M-x slime-export-class? 23:16:42 <Phooodus> we don't use defclass too often, so defclass-export isn't that smart 23:16:55 <Hexstream> Phooodus: Oh. People usually drop the habit of making and using that kind of "thin wrapper macro" after some time... 23:17:07 splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 23:17:32 <antifuchs> stassats: um. WOW. 23:17:41 <antifuchs> stassats: why didn't I know about this. 23:17:49 <stassats> i don't know! 23:17:56 <Hexstream> Because slime is awesomely underdocumented. 23:18:06 <antifuchs> WHY WASN'T I INFORMED? 23:18:09 *antifuchs* demands to know! 23:18:11 <Hexstream> Like most CL projects... 23:18:13 <antifuchs> no, srsly. this is great (: 23:18:47 <Phooodus> huh, doesn't work for me 23:18:48 <stassats> antifuchs: i'm advertising it quite regularly 23:18:54 <Phooodus> couldn't find source definition of the package 23:19:14 <Phooodus> hmm, I don't think our defpackages are literal in the source 23:20:00 <antifuchs> well then (: 23:20:08 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:20:13 <nikodemus> more slime bloggage 23:20:18 <antifuchs> stassats: you should start a blog that lists slime goodies like this 23:20:40 <antifuchs> one post per feature / keystroke (: 23:20:53 <stassats> maybe 23:21:01 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-98-113-194-183.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:21:17 *antifuchs* will wish on the next falling star. 23:21:50 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 23:22:02 -!- splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:22:41 <_6502_> what does it mean *** - Invalid access to the value of the lexical variable #:G11440 from within a MACROLET definition ? 23:23:12 <slyrus> glidesurfer: yes 23:23:14 <pjb> _6502_: lexical variables are known only at run-time. Macro are expanded at compilation time. 23:23:18 <antifuchs> you're trying (let ((foo 1)) (macrolet ((something () `(do-something-with ,foo)))) ... 23:23:19 <nikodemus> macrolet macros are in the null lexical environment 23:23:25 <Hexstream> _6502_: The point of macros is to run at compile-time (roughly), so it's illegal to access enclosing lexical variables, since those are available at runtime only... 23:23:47 <Phooodus> I know it's probably very flame-warry, but why do you prefer separate export lists rather than defining export scope as you create your source? 23:23:58 <Hexstream> nikodemus: I don't think that's accurate... 23:24:08 <antifuchs> Phooodus: because the package definition is a nice contract-type api description. 23:24:21 <stassats> and because i prefer to type defun and defun-export 23:24:31 <Hexstream> You can use outer MACROLETs for instance, I think. But you can't use runtime-only lexical stuff such as variable bindings. 23:24:32 <stassats> and not 23:24:35 <antifuchs> plus it's easier to reload the system and get the same package state 23:25:06 <Phooodus> I find while editing that I change exports pretty often 23:25:24 <Phooodus> macros with internal macrolets that need to export utility symbols, etc 23:25:25 <pjb> Phooodus: typically, the point is that the export list doesn't depend intrinsically on the symbol, but on the package. You can define two packages, one exporting symbols for the clients, one exporting the same symbols (subset or superset) for extenders (subclasses, driver providers, etc). 23:25:35 <lisppaste> _6502_ pasted "with-cache / cached" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122268 23:25:40 <nikodemus> Hexstream: true. i was oversimplifying 23:25:55 <_6502_> the problem is index? 23:26:23 <Phooodus> pjb: right, but wouldn't that be far easier to work with if, right in the source, you have your macros filling those fields for the multiple package views vs maintaining them separately? 23:27:14 <antifuchs> _6502_: it's the ,index in the macrolet definition. 23:27:16 <pjb> In some cases. Also, if you always have the same project structure, you may be doing something wrong. 23:27:28 <antifuchs> _6502_: you can't reference the lexical environment from a macrolet. 23:27:50 <Phooodus> pjb: what do you mean exactly by "project structure"? 23:28:42 <pjb> Having the export lists built automatically imply a "IDE" mind set, with a predefined project structure. 23:29:03 <_6502_> antifuchs: i need a different ID for each macrolet expansion... but i cannot use a lexical deined in the outer macro :-/ ... 23:29:15 <Phooodus> pjb: you prefer a manual approach? 23:29:38 <Phooodus> I mean, this is a programmable programming language. It should be doing all the setup foo for us :) 23:29:53 <pjb> It may be automatized, but yes, it's mostly an explicit choice. 23:30:02 <stassats> typing C-c x in slime is faster than appending -export 23:30:02 <Phooodus> and if the project type/style/etc changes, then those tools just change 23:30:12 <Hexstream> With a sufficiently advanced editor, you could optionally view and edit exports inline and this information would actually live in the DEFPACKAGE form... 23:30:39 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:30:42 <Phooodus> Hexstream: I agree 23:30:43 <stassats> and C-u C-c x removes the symbol from :export 23:31:58 <Guthur> C-c x, how awesome 23:32:10 <Phooodus> stassats: but erasing the defun-export also cleans up without 2-phase manual process 23:32:19 <Phooodus> I mean, it's cool that that's in slime; I didn't know about it either 23:32:26 <Phooodus> and we might ahve used it before building our own tools 23:32:27 <stassats> cleans up what? 23:32:36 <Phooodus> removes the symbol from the export on next reload 23:32:57 <Phooodus> whereas if you C-c x the symbol, then remove its use, it's still exported I presume 23:33:34 <stassats> you shouldn't be so frivolous to exported symbols! 23:34:02 <Phooodus> when you're writing/debugging cross-package programs, the export list changes quite otenj 23:34:05 <Phooodus> often 23:35:10 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:35:46 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 23:35:46 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 23:35:47 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 23:35:47 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 23:35:47 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 23:36:37 <Guthur> stassats, the C-u C-c x doesn't seem to be working correctly for me 23:36:49 <stassats> how? 23:36:53 splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 23:37:01 <_6502_> i'm getting horrible ideas like creating a global symbol for each with-cache :-( .... better going to sleep 23:37:05 -!- pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has left #lisp 23:37:19 <_6502_> later guys and thanks 23:37:27 <Guthur> Symbol 'foo' is not exported from '#:bar' 23:37:31 <Guthur> stassats, ^ 23:37:37 <Guthur> oh wait 23:37:44 -!- _6502_ [5e24fd14@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.253.20] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:37:49 <Guthur> I think because I had not saved the buffer, maybe... 23:38:08 <Guthur> nope that's not the issue 23:38:17 <stassats> is it exported in the image? 23:38:37 <Phooodus> did you compile/load the buffer? 23:38:39 <Guthur> nope, does it need to be 23:38:53 <stassats> Guthur: yes 23:38:59 <Guthur> ah well that's probably it then 23:39:16 mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-076-182-089-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:39:19 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Client Quit] 23:39:38 <stassats> C-c x exports it from the image, besides modifying (:export ...) 23:40:08 <Guthur> yeah i invoked C-c x first 23:40:26 LakatosI [557a1e03@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.122.30.3] has joined #lisp 23:40:33 <LakatosI> Heu guys 23:40:59 <LakatosI> What's a more efficient/faster method to map over a list? 23:41:01 -!- splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:41:15 <stassats> Guthur: are you sure? can you try that again with some other symbol? 23:41:19 <LakatosI> Are there any differences between (mapc ...) or (map 'nil ...) ? 23:41:22 <Guthur> oh string things are not going well here, I C-c x another and then C-u C-c x it and got... 23:41:40 <Phooodus> LakatosI: do an inline labels? 23:41:40 zmv [~daniel@c9533906.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 23:41:43 <Hexstream> MAPC works only with lists, while MAP works with any SEQUENCE... 23:41:45 <Guthur> (:export #:defprogram)(:export ) 23:42:01 <Guthur> it gave me the same error as well 23:42:02 <stassats> Guthur: can you paste your defpackage form? 23:42:13 <LakatosI> Phooodus: So I can do a recursion? 23:42:23 <Phooodus> sure, do a tail-recursive loop with labels 23:42:26 <Phooodus> or at least, I tend to fall back to that 23:42:32 <stassats> really? 23:42:34 <Phooodus> then it doesn't do a function call on every element 23:42:37 <LakatosI> Hexstream: Yes, I know that, but is there a difference in performance 23:42:56 <Phooodus> I haven't seen sbcl inline mapc, but it might in certain cases, which would make that moot 23:42:59 <Hexstream> Presumably, MAPC is more efficient with lists... 23:43:03 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 23:43:03 <Phooodus> (others could probaly tell if it does) 23:43:11 <Guthur> grrr, submit buttons have got broken in chrome, very annoying 23:43:55 <stassats> Phooodus: but not tail-recursion, surely 23:44:01 <LakatosI> I'm trying to optimize a list-munchin program of mine and the only place I havne not tried anything yet is in the way it parses my lists 23:44:13 <lisppaste> Guthur pasted "package" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122270 23:44:19 <stassats> and sbcl inlines maps 23:44:31 <Phooodus> LakatosI: how big are your lists? 23:44:35 -!- Soulman1 [~knute@250.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 23:44:37 <Hexstream> LakatosI: You're more likely to get good advice if you paste some code... 23:44:54 <Guthur> stassats, that is the state of my package after C-c x and C-u C-c x on two symbols 23:45:03 <LakatosI> like thousand element lists that further contain lists of lists 23:45:35 <LakatosI> It's kind of a giant mess 23:45:54 <stassats> Guthur: oh, i see now, it gets borked when there's no :export 23:46:00 <stassats> i'll see to fixing it 23:46:12 <LakatosI> I would have to paste a lot of code, because my sample lists are generated incrementally 23:46:19 <Phooodus> LakatosI: you can tail-recurse on a single list, but have to do stack recursion on sublists 23:46:21 <Guthur> ah ok, cool, glad to have help improve it 23:46:26 <LakatosI> by different parts of my program 23:46:32 -!- _fogus_ [~fogus@pool-96-255-210-172.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: thunking] 23:47:04 -!- mydik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:47:04 <LakatosI> Phooodus: I see 23:47:41 _fogus_ [~fogus@pool-96-255-210-172.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:47:58 <stassats> using tail recursion for iterating over lists isn't particularly clever 23:48:27 <Phooodus> LakatosI: well, you could cons up the sublists manually and pass them as parameters, but that might end up being more expensive than just letting the stack do its thing 23:48:40 -!- _fogus_ [~fogus@pool-96-255-210-172.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:48:41 cmm- [~cmm@109.67.199.173] has joined #lisp 23:48:43 <Phooodus> stassats: right, but if somebody's using map functions blindly, it can help 23:48:51 <Phooodus> if it's not being inlined 23:49:07 <stassats> maps are inlined, and blindly using recursion instead won't help 23:49:07 <LakatosI> Ok 23:49:28 katesmith [~katesmith@97-89-229-3.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:49:29 <LakatosI> I'll se what I can do then to speed things up 23:49:30 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@97-89-229-3.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 23:49:30 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 23:49:34 -!- LakatosI [557a1e03@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.122.30.3] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:49:50 HET2 [~diman@cpc12-cdif12-2-0-cust276.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:50:10 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:50:11 <Phooodus> if you do (mapc (lambda ....) list), it'll inline the lambda body in the loop? I presume that when you (mapc #'foo list), it still funcalls on every car 23:50:11 <stassats> and even if you don't use map, LOOP (or DOLIST) is clearly better than tail-recursion 23:50:15 <nikodemus> profiling, analysis, and experiments are the way to get performance 23:50:18 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:50:20 <nikodemus> in that order 23:50:41 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-203-50.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:51:07 <stassats> Phooodus: of course it does funcall if #'foo isn't inlinable, how do you expect it not to be called each time when you will use tail-recursion? 23:51:37 <Phooodus> I'm just asking about the first case, noting that I acknowledge the 2nd case 23:52:34 <stassats> yes, i said two times that MAPs are inlined 23:52:45 <stassats> can't you check for yourself? 23:53:04 <Phooodus> well, that could either mean that looping over the cars is inlined, or that both that and the car-processing bodies are inlined 23:53:04 <Hexstream> stassats: Not everyone is a code glutton such as yourself. 23:53:25 <Phooodus> so I was asking more precisely 23:53:50 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:53:50 <stassats> everything is inlined 23:53:54 <Phooodus> ok 23:55:44 <antifuchs> outline the inlining for us again (-; 23:56:32 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 23:56:42 splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp