00:00:02 well, we won't know without testing 00:00:28 especially since the main point of beta will be calibration of free/paid 00:00:43 is it written in lisp? 00:00:54 stassats: kinda 00:01:00 some parts will be 00:01:18 p_l|backup: you can say no. We all know antifuchs is a rubyist for instance ;) 00:01:18 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-33-40-18.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:01:46 pkhuong: heh, but I am serious. For server side, the current PHP mockup is going to be replaced either with CL or Erlang 00:02:53 pkhuong: is he? 00:03:16 *madnificent* has problems convincing people lisp is the way to go 00:03:58 madnificent: have you tried a loaded gun? 00:04:19 as a matter of fact, I haven't... I doubt they'd still want to work with me though 00:04:32 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-33-40-18.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:04 madnificent: Use the gun again, i bet they'd love to work with you then 00:05:05 from what I see right now, there is going to be .NET (Windows, WP7, current OSX), Objective-C (iOS, future OSX), Java/similar (Android, Blackberry?), possibly future linux client (ECL + EQL) 00:05:12 you should ascertain your authority, people don't pay attention to rational arguments 00:06:23 stassats: literally, the argument is that they are scared of the power of lisp. They are affraid that they'll loose control. They don't know the language though 00:06:48 They are right, look at what happened to skynet! 00:06:57 p_l|backup: we're transitioning away from Erlang into Lisp 00:07:19 if your code relies on a lot of very dynamic behavior, Erlang will constrain you 00:07:37 but if you just need a bunch of relatively simple, statically-configured agents, Erlang might work out 00:07:46 -!- argiopeweb [~elliot@184.91.40.175] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:09:20 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc12-cdif12-2-0-cust276.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:10:22 -!- leifw [~user@ool-18bac6ad.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:14:08 borkaman` [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:22 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:15:42 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 00:16:08 -!- borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:18:04 xxxyyy [~xyxu@124.76.14.42] has joined #lisp 00:21:05 sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has joined #lisp 00:23:10 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-33-40-18.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:23:57 madnificent: we all have. People are not convinced easily. Or even at all, actually. 00:24:47 I've managed to convince a couple of other students at my univ 00:25:07 or keep it a secret and use it as a competitive advantage! :) 00:25:16 just wait until they blame you for ruining their life 00:25:16 Not directly, but just by them watching how much nicer things are on this side of the fence 00:25:25 And then they got interested 00:26:27 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-33-40-18.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:26:46 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.65.209.45] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:26:51 *madnificent* finds it very sad. It's not like a sports car of which people are jealous, yet they should. 00:27:04 cmm [~cmm@109.65.209.45] has joined #lisp 00:27:51 madnificent: Why are you sad about that? 00:28:08 the issues I see is "It's ooooold", or "It's sloooow", or "It's diiiiiferent", that's it 00:28:44 or "It's one of those academic/research langauges, not for real use" 00:28:50 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:29:02 from the slightly less incompetent peopl 00:29:04 e 00:29:20 it's hard to work with lisp without getting involved into projects 00:29:21 good idea is going for first year students 00:30:19 p_l|backup: We use scheme for our first year introductory class, that doesn't seem to work very well 00:30:29 drdo: I want to help people 00:30:40 Phoodus: no, it's scary, that's the point for most... 00:30:48 in other words, you need to be willing to improve Lisp, if you want to get anywhere far 00:30:59 if they look at the code I write, then it scares them for some reason. It's not that I only write ugly code though :) 00:30:59 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-17-206-5.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:31:21 to snag people like first year students, easier access to graphics & GUI would work better 00:31:31 Phoodus: We even do that 00:31:50 Usually the first semester project is some sort of game with graphics and all 00:31:56 that's good 00:31:58 drdo: well, I was using CL and one-on-one talks, with concentration on *benefits* 00:32:50 I don't care much about sales pitching lisp to anyone to be honest 00:33:14 drdo: brussels? 00:33:21 madnificent: what? 00:33:41 I thought they did that in brussels, use scheme in the first year. I was wondering if you were referring to that, but you prabably aren't 00:33:53 s/prabably/probably 00:34:11 I attend here: http://www.ist.utl.pt/en/ 00:35:09 ah, I didn't know they used scheme as well 00:35:30 there's also CL in some courses in the 3rd and 4th years 00:35:47 drdo: are you portuguese? 00:35:48 not like the usage of scheme for teaching is as uncommon and out of bounds 00:35:51 Kenjin: yes 00:36:05 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:36:11 drdo: nice :) me too 00:36:27 *stassats* tries to come up with some stereotype about the portuguese and fails 00:36:38 lol 00:36:41 -!- borkaman` [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:36:48 xinming_ [~hyy@115.221.15.177] has joined #lisp 00:36:52 madnificent: That probably has a lot to do with the fact that the president of our department has a company and they use CL 00:37:23 Kenjin: Where are you from? 00:37:49 drdo: originally from Baixo Alentejo, but I'm in Coimbra 00:37:55 -!- zbigniew [~zb@ipv6.3e8.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:37:56 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-33-40-18.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:38:06 drdo: cool 00:38:13 drdo: and a bit wrong as well 00:38:25 what's wrong? 00:38:49 -!- jrockway [~jrockway@jrockway-2-pt.tunnel.tserv9.chi1.ipv6.he.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:39:25 we had a 2nd year course on AI where we used Common Lisp. That's where I got interested. 00:39:35 drdo: that's not really the reason to stick with CL imo 00:39:43 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Quit: eugu] 00:39:46 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.221.2.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:40:30 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-33-40-18.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:40:32 madnificent: That's not my reason, i was into lisp before i got to univ 00:40:52 are you the president of your department? 00:41:00 unfortunately they stopped using CL. I think they use Python now 00:41:02 incf stassats 00:41:04 -!- ec|detached is now known as elliottcable 00:41:50 stassats: no sir 00:42:04 oh i see what you mean 00:42:11 madnificent: Well, what's a good reason then? 00:42:36 CL is a language from which you can learn a lot and it has practical applications as well. 00:42:54 but the learning portion what I'd advise CL for 00:44:03 why should there be reasons? 00:44:15 learn CL for the hell of it! 00:44:49 stassats: hell! heaven! 00:45:00 zbigniew [~zb@ipv6.3e8.org] has joined #lisp 00:45:02 s/l!/l!?/ 00:45:32 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-33-40-18.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:46:47 Is there a way to get the initform of a slot? 00:47:01 mop:slot-definition-initform 00:47:07 obligatory: http://www.nuttymp3.com/mp3/612225 00:48:13 "Learn CL because there are many things in it not yet written" 00:48:26 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-33-40-18.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:48:40 jrockway [~jrockway@jrockway-2-pt.tunnel.tserv9.chi1.ipv6.he.net] has joined #lisp 00:48:44 that'll resolve the "not enough libraries" issue 00:49:24 the biggest "problem" i've run encountered with CL is no longer wanting to use other languages 00:49:43 s/run// 00:49:43 derrida: agreed! It can be so frustrating! 00:50:20 yes, but just because i don't anything else besides CL 00:50:28 don't know 00:51:50 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 00:52:06 chp [~chp@2001:da8:a000:155:5eff:35ff:fe0c:c3ef] has joined #lisp 00:52:25 derrida: that's certainly a big problem, indeed. 00:52:53 The obvious solution is to write compilers from CL to other languages of course! 00:53:00 But most programmers only use their only programming language. 00:53:03 that's what we do 00:53:09 drdo: No, that's a wrong idea. 00:53:24 drdo: The right idea is to write _translators_ from the other languages to lisp. 00:53:28 pjb: I didn't say it was the right idea, i just said it was the obvious one 00:53:31 So that people can switch to lisp. 00:53:32 write bots to write code in other languages? 00:53:52 pjb: What's the difference between a compiler and a translator? 00:53:58 derrida: just use your own children 00:53:58 derrida: that's not a good idea either, because they will try to maintain the code in the target languages. 00:54:03 stassats: :) 00:54:23 pjb: generated code should never touch human hands 00:54:47 drdo: a compiler is a translator that translates to a language that has a lower program-complexity / machine-complexity ratio. 00:55:30 *stassats* steers clear of lisp-fundamentalism 00:55:44 pjb: I don't use that definition 00:55:54 Also, good luck with measuring programming language complexity 00:56:00 -!- splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:56:11 Whatever that even means 00:56:27 drdo: this is rather easy to do: just measure the size of the programs. 00:56:37 pjb: Which programs? 00:56:39 APL is the winner 00:57:03 drdo: you integrate on all the programs. 00:57:35 pjb: That is impossible in finite time 00:57:38 your asm generated by many of your lisp defuns are smaller in byte count than the source code 00:57:39 You can formalize those notions, but Kolmogoroff and Chaitin already did a lot of work. 00:57:50 s/asm/machine code/ 00:58:36 so, the shorter the programs, the more complex the language? 00:59:45 Basically, yes. 00:59:50 stassats: keep steering clear, otherwise you're bound to clash somewhere :) 00:59:59 stassats: and I say no to that 01:00:09 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-33-40-18.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:00:10 no to what? 01:00:20 pjb: The size of what? The text? The parse tree? 01:00:58 stassats: shorter size->complexer language 01:01:30 drdo: it does not matter. size = chaitin complexity. 01:02:15 the struct accessors from above went from dozens of characters to a few bytes in 1 or 2 machine code instructions 01:02:32 that means that asm is a higher complexity than lisp? 01:03:10 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-33-40-18.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:17 Phoodus: try to compress you lisp program and see how many fractions of bit your field accessor takes. 01:03:30 pjb: How would you go about measuring the complexity of a language? 01:03:34 madnificent: binary numbers are simple, 0 and 1, hexadecimal number are more complex, they have 16 digits. (length (write-to-string 42 :base 2)) => 6 (length (write-to-string 42 :base 16)) => 2 01:03:44 drdo: As I said, Chaitin did the hard work. Go read it. 01:03:51 If the program was nothing but struct accessors, maybe. But it's not, and I doubt even compressed the text would be smaller than the asm output 01:03:52 pjb: I'm reading the wikipedia page 01:04:24 Phoodus: lisp programs don't contain any text. 01:04:38 stassats: you haven't defined what size means, nor what complexity means in your case. If it's not derivable from those definitions, then it'll be hard to argue about it 01:04:55 pjb: then what are you talking about compressing 01:04:58 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.245.203] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:05:04 pjb: Would you recommend a specific book or papers or what? 01:05:23 nah, to hell with your theoretical masturbations 01:05:35 Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.245.203] has joined #lisp 01:06:13 It's rather easy in practice. Take a program written in C, rewrite it in Lisp, observe the size has shrunk by 10 to 30, compress the sources to get a more precise ratio. Infer that translating from Lisp to C will be called compilation, and translating C to lisp will be called decompilation. 01:06:14 stassats: I'm taking my words back, you don't seem to be clashing with your nonsense, but you're making others clash instead :) I'm removing myself from this discussion :) 01:06:17 heck, even just the cons cells & symbol references (not including the symbol objects themselves) are smaller than the 4-byte compiled struct accessor 01:06:22 If the ratio is closer to 1, call it translation. 01:06:28 s/smaller/larger/ 01:06:36 pjb: The problem is doing that over all programs, an infinite set 01:06:58 drdo: all the programs on your hard disk = infinite. 01:07:17 right, I'm sure many examples can be constructed to violate those constraints over any given language pair 01:07:18 ? 01:07:42 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-33-40-18.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:10:21 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-33-40-18.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined 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connection] 03:07:18 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-33-40-18.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:07:29 -!- carlo_au [~carlo@ppp59-167-11-13.lns1.syd6.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 03:08:26 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.245.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:11:44 Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.245.203] has joined #lisp 03:14:30 -!- ldh [~ldh@h184-60-28-206.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 03:20:09 ubii [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:21 foocraft_ [~ewanas@178.152.75.255] has joined #lisp 03:22:28 -!- _foocraft [~ewanas@78.101.218.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:27:35 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:28:46 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 03:28:48 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.105.59] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:29:10 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.105.59] has joined #lisp 03:31:47 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:31:59 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-134-47.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:32:01 how expensive is CLRHASH on sbcl 03:32:45 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-130-48.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:33:29 -!- sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:34:04 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:34:34 r11t [~himanshu@li109-137.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 03:34:34 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-33-40-18.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:34:47 McMAGIC--Copy [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 03:35:08 sonnym1 [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:35:29 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.134.96] has joined #lisp 03:36:35 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-33-40-18.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:36:35 dto: M-. 03:37:17 pjb: hi, what? 03:37:21 oh. 03:37:38 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-130-48.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:37:38 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 03:37:53 pjb: thanks. wow. 03:37:59 i'm definitely using it wrong :) 03:38:42 i knew i had a dumb mistake somewhere. 03:40:14 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:40:41 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.255] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:41:34 could someone recommend the most widely used xml parser? 03:41:39 there are so many to choose from 03:47:07 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.236.13] has joined #lisp 03:49:23 Anyone know anything about the css-selectors library? 03:51:16 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-33-40-18.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:52:10 tippenein [~chatzilla@97.65.218.14] has joined #lisp 03:53:45 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-33-40-18.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:55:55 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-176-90.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 03:56:19 akimbo: I use xmls. It's simple. I don't have any sophisticated xml needs. 03:56:19 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-176-90.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:57:03 akimbo: most code seems to work with clxml 04:00:07 ok cool thanks guys 04:00:34 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.105.59] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:00:58 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.105.59] has joined #lisp 04:01:24 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.105.59] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:01:43 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.105.59] has joined #lisp 04:02:40 Areil [~user@123.20.50.129] has joined #lisp 04:03:29 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-33-40-18.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:05:55 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-33-40-18.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:13 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-33-40-18.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:08:31 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-33-40-18.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 04:10:40 -!- symbole [~user@ool-ad02b0d9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:11:58 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has joined #lisp 04:12:00 hissss [~x@adsl-75-13-170-138.dsl.fyvlar.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:16:22 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.105.59] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:16:47 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.105.59] has joined #lisp 04:19:54 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@web30.webfaction.com] has quit [Quit: out] 04:20:24 milkpost [~milkpost@web30.webfaction.com] has joined #lisp 04:20:43 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2656C.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:20:56 pnq [~nick@ACA2656C.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 04:21:34 |3b| [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:21:47 evildaemon [~anon@50-35-176-190.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 04:22:33 Another newbie question: What's the best way to compare input made by the user to a predefined value? 04:23:05 depends on the comparison you want to perform. 04:23:26 i.e. what are you comparing and what for? 04:23:27 I'd say "(read) to a string/symbol" 04:23:49 (Which is probably wrong to do.........) 04:24:54 Uh, Basically, I need to be able to take commands from input. 04:25:29 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-128-233.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:26:25 when you'll be able to give us enough information to answer your question, you'll have almost written the program. 04:26:26 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-33-40-18.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:26:41 Basically, yeah. 04:27:37 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.134.96] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:27:39 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 04:27:58 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:28:09 evildaemon: write a sample function that takes the kind of input you have in mind and returns it to the calling function, then wrap it in #'type-of :) 04:28:57 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-33-40-18.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 04:29:06 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-33-40-18.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:29:07 McMAGIC--Copy [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 04:29:27 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.105.59] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:29:53 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.105.59] has joined #lisp 04:30:09 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.105.59] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:30:44 Thanks, since I'm not running X and haven't learned how to use screen yet...... 04:30:47 -!- evildaemon [~anon@50-35-176-190.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:33:34 My pleasure :) 04:34:25 Actually, screen's nice and easy. `screen` to start a session, `^A d` to detach and leave it running, `screen -r` to reattach. There's plenty more, but that'll get you a long way. 04:34:41 nostoi [~nostoi@185.Red-95-121-138.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 04:34:53 I like just using dtach. 04:35:19 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:38:07 -!- doc_who [~doc_who@pool-108-18-142-175.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:41:23 -!- argiopeweb [~elliot@175.40.91.184.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:42:20 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 04:42:25 argiopeweb [~elliot@175.40.91.184.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:42:59 Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #lisp 04:43:17 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has quit [Quit: "Good night everyone"] 04:46:39 -!- jrockway [~jrockway@jrockway-2-pt.tunnel.tserv9.chi1.ipv6.he.net] has quit [Quit: oh hello, new machine] 04:46:59 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.105.59] has joined #lisp 04:51:27 HG` [~HG@p579F75A1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:51:36 -!- HG` [~HG@p579F75A1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:52:20 oudeis [~oudeis@IGLD-84-229-201-105.inter.net.il] has joined #lisp 04:53:25 Davsebamse [~davse@94.127.49.1] has joined #lisp 04:55:09 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:58:45 -!- Davsebamse [~davse@94.127.49.1] has quit [Quit: Davsebamse] 05:02:52 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-110-245.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:03:55 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:04:39 -!- nixfreak_ [~nixfreak@mn-10k-dhcp1-3174.dsl.hickorytech.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:05:10 grimboy_ [~grimboy@128.232.247.43] has joined #lisp 05:05:32 -!- nixfreak [~nixfreak@mn-10k-dhcp1-3174.dsl.hickorytech.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:05:44 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-218-101.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:07:09 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@185.Red-95-121-138.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 05:07:32 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-nsnnqsobxnzlkvju] has joined #lisp 05:08:44 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:09:30 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 05:09:50 Euthydemus` [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 05:09:56 -!- gor[e] [~svr@gw2.masterhost.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:10:26 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:12:04 -!- superflit [~superflit@97-122-97-231.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:13:00 -!- chp [~chp@2001:da8:a000:155:5eff:35ff:fe0c:c3ef] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:15:39 -!- Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:15:40 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.105.59] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:16:01 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.105.59] has joined #lisp 05:18:01 superflit [~superflit@140.226.4.227] has joined #lisp 05:18:08 jrockway [~jrockway@itchy.jrock.us] has joined #lisp 05:19:13 -!- jrockway [~jrockway@itchy.jrock.us] has quit [Client Quit] 05:19:23 -!- Yuzu- [~yuzuchan@p5052-ipad406osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 05:19:30 jrockway [~jrockway@2001:470:1f0e:bfa::2] has joined #lisp 05:19:45 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has joined #lisp 05:19:51 -!- jrockway [~jrockway@2001:470:1f0e:bfa::2] has quit [Client Quit] 05:20:42 jrockway [~jrockway@2001:470:1f0e:bfa::2] has joined #lisp 05:24:57 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:28:48 -!- spurvewt [~fess@gate113.iba.by] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:29:02 Liera [~Liera@123.20.50.129] has joined #lisp 05:29:12 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.105.59] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:29:59 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.105.59] has joined #lisp 05:30:28 Psyk0tikk [~IceChat77@116.199.232.7] has joined #lisp 05:30:31 -!- cbp [~Cesar@189.139.219.96] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:30:37 cbp [~Cesar@189.139.219.96] has joined #lisp 05:33:46 spurvewt [~fess@gate113.iba.by] has joined #lisp 05:43:13 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.105.59] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:45:34 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.202.90] has joined #lisp 05:47:38 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-128-233.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:47:38 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 05:47:47 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:47:52 psilord [~psilord@ppp-70-226-163-151.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 05:49:40 hi all. what's the minimalist way to learn how to code a lisp parser? 05:49:54 Write one. 05:50:17 Zhivago: I'm actually trying to code one and got some steps but 05:51:00 I'm not satisfied with the work I've done. I want to learn one of the smartest approaches 05:53:20 sid3k: To learn the "smartest" approaches you would might have to learnt he "dumbest" ones too. 05:53:59 so, what do you suggest? 05:54:38 where should I start? I coded an interpreter, reading norvig.com/lispy.html article 05:54:59 I now want to code a compile a sexp to another language 05:56:12 -!- lanthan_ [~ze@p54B7F04A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 05:57:44 -!- Psyk0tikk [~IceChat77@116.199.232.7] has quit [Quit: Not that there is anything wrong with that] 05:59:40 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.202.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:00:05 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.105.59] has joined #lisp 06:00:47 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.205.64] has joined #lisp 06:01:21 sid3k: what problem are you trying to solve here? 06:02:19 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:03:07 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 06:04:26 jfleming: I'm just trying to educate myself :) 06:04:56 Ah, that definitely influences the answer :) 06:05:32 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.205.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:05:46 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.209.120] has joined #lisp 06:05:47 If it were in the interests of producing something in particular, I'd just tell you to use the very mature parser that lisp already has. 06:06:15 wislin [~user@118.122.165.4] has joined #lisp 06:06:50 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-17-206-5.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:07:37 hmm 06:08:12 As s-expressions have a nicely regular syntax, would it suffice to write a grammar that you then fed to a parser-generator, or are you determined to write a parser from the ground up? 06:08:44 I've done the latter myself, though not for lisp syntax, so I can actually provide useful input on this :) 06:11:36 I'm actually wondering about the parser algorithms 06:12:01 Do you know about parser combinators? 06:12:09 nope 06:12:19 You might want to have a look there, since they are simple and flexible. 06:12:48 I'm on the wiki entry of that 06:12:54 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.105.59] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:13:28 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.105.59] has joined #lisp 06:14:49 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 06:15:17 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 06:15:25 There's definitely plenty of good information about parsers on the web; for anything that'll work within a regular grammar, I recommend those authorities beyond anything I might add. 06:19:25 But if you're looking at an irregular grammar, my recommendations are (in order): try not to need it; swipe somebody else's work; resign yourself to spending a *lot* of time solving some really annoying problems. 06:19:59 Also, note that the CL readtable is a nasty hack, and not really a good approach, imho. 06:20:10 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:21:04 -!- cbp [~Cesar@189.139.219.96] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:21:14 sid3k: actually, you might want to take a look at my work for an example of an approach you'd probably rather not take: https://github.com/equill/mark-and-render 06:21:46 It's part of the way there, but a critical section of the wikimarkup parser needs a rewrite. 06:27:41 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 06:27:44 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:27:52 good morning 06:28:26 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.105.59] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:28:59 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.105.59] has joined #lisp 06:29:37 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@115.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:29:50 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@pD9E812AA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 06:33:30 Good afternoon :) 06:33:49 -!- benny [~benny@i577A87F8.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:33:58 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.209.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:37:47 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 06:40:25 splittist [~splittist@160-51.62-81.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:40:31 morning 06:41:48 -!- grimboy_ [~grimboy@128.232.247.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:42:59 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@pD9E812AA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:43:06 Dose anyone use CL_HTTP? 06:43:30 it was mentioned recently on planet-lisp i think 06:43:35 somebody has done a wiki in it 06:44:06 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.105.59] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:44:29 when I run cl-http in lispworks, never sucess. 06:44:39 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.105.59] has joined #lisp 06:44:51 Threading? 06:45:10 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.105.59] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:45:32 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.105.59] has joined #lisp 06:45:33 Can not pass compile 06:46:38 Allway find a error " Reader cannot find package WWW-UTILS" 06:47:18 Is there some way to do (iter (collecting (...) into (values a b c))) ? Doesn't seem to work, is there a trick, or does INTO only allow a single variable? 06:47:25 lemonjuice [~user@94.55.194.31] has joined #lisp 06:47:31 wislin: to ask a dumb question, are you sure www-utils is loaded, or at least findable by ASDF? 06:48:03 [Of course I could do (for (values %a %b %c) = (...)) (collecting %a into a) (collecting %b into b) etc ... 06:49:21 _foocraft [~ewanas@89.211.179.230] has joined #lisp 06:49:39 luke__ [~luke@2.103.108.29] has joined #lisp 06:49:41 -!- luke_ [~luke@2.103.111.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:50:27 I use lispworks for windows to open start.lisp and compile . 06:51:21 lispworks5 do not include ASDF. 06:51:27 -!- lemonjuice [~user@94.55.194.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:51:47 lemonjuice [~user@94.55.194.31] has joined #lisp 06:52:19 -!- foocraft_ [~ewanas@178.152.75.255] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:53:59 -!- argiopeweb [~elliot@175.40.91.184.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:55:00 grimboy_ [~grimboy@bcm-128-232-247-43.girton.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 06:55:24 -!- lemonjuice [~user@94.55.194.31] has left #lisp 06:58:07 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.105.59] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:58:35 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.105.59] has joined #lisp 06:59:03 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.105.59] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:59:34 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.105.59] has joined #lisp 07:03:21 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.245.203] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:06:59 wislin: My bad; I'll modify my question, then: is the www-utils package loaded? I know nothing of lispworks' package management, sorry. 07:07:08 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-pnjhqktwbzugfnkl] has joined #lisp 07:08:00 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@IGLD-84-229-201-105.inter.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:08:03 superjudge [~superjudg@195.22.80.141] has joined #lisp 07:08:51 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:08:55 i see a possibility of confusion here: the error message complains about cl:package named www-utils, which does not necessarily correspond to any "module" by that name 07:09:28 topeak [~topeak@123.114.127.202] has joined #lisp 07:10:50 -!- lusory [~bart@bb220-255-243-17.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:13:16 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.105.59] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:13:38 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.105.59] has joined #lisp 07:15:28 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has joined #lisp 07:16:19 lanthan [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:17:48 attila_lendvai: are you awake? 07:17:59 flip214: hi 07:18:08 thanks for the quick answer. 07:18:14 In start.lisp file , there are follow code : www-utils:lw-cold-enable-http-service. So www-utils package should be in lispworks. 07:18:21 -!- lanthan [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 07:18:26 I saw that you've been the last one active on iterate's darcs repo ... 07:18:43 Is there a way to get (collecting) etc. work with multiple variables? 07:18:48 (iter (collecting (...) into (values a b c))) 07:18:55 or something like that? 07:19:03 [Of course I could do (for (values %a %b %c) = (...)) (collecting %a into a) (collecting %b into b) etc... 07:19:08 but that gets boring 07:19:15 I don't know about such a feature, but it doesn't mean it's not there 07:19:16 lanthan [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:19:41 I make a not for hu.dwim.reiterate though... :) 07:19:59 should that be compatible with iterate? 07:20:19 not 100%, but pretty much along the line 07:20:38 snearch [~snearch@f053001249.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:20:52 Is there some documentation to read, to see the differences? 07:20:57 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:21:19 I've stopped working on it for a while now and we haven't moved our codebase to it, so I don't consider it production-ready 07:21:54 flip214: there are unit tests, I don't believe in documentation (neither as a user, not as an author of libraries) 07:22:32 Well, I've got an (iterate) loop in a macro, and build code there ... what's the easiest way to collect multiple results of a function into various lists? 07:23:05 aerique [310225@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:23:43 I'm generating one list that gets put into a (let), another for functions in (labels), and still another for code within the (let () (labels () ...)) ... 07:24:11 if you don't write it day-and-night, then just use a longer form. otherwise look into iterate.lisp on how to extend it with a feature you need... 07:24:35 hmmm 07:24:59 thank you very much, although, TBH, I'd hoped for a quick patch ;-) (no, not seriously) 07:25:06 or if you're running for purity and beauty, then look into hu.dwim.reiterate and send patches... :) 07:25:34 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-73-150.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:26:53 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.105.59] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:28:50 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-88-171.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:28:50 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 07:30:46 gaidal 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connection] 10:03:52 I'm trying to document myself for a presentation I have to do about a webapp of mine 10:04:13 I'm expecting a lot of criticism on how slow Lisp is 10:04:32 How should I destroy them? 10:04:37 that's cool, lisp isn't slow :) 10:04:41 LakatosI: With competence! 10:04:53 LakatosI: you can refer to tpd2, showing that lisp needn't be slow for web apps for instance 10:05:15 LakatosI: also, why are they scared about the speed? 10:05:16 Yeah, go from technical problems to social problems. 10:05:46 Honestly, I don't know 10:05:57 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:06:03 Sure, my algorithms in my application culd use some optimizations 10:06:19 LakatosI: show them how fast wigflip.com is! 10:06:23 I'm performing simulated anealing which kinda takes a lot of time 10:06:43 LakatosI: for running on a slow landline, factory.homelinux.org is quite fast as well (though Xach actually gets traffic) 10:06:46 jrockway [~jrockway@2001:470:1f0e:bfa::2] has joined #lisp 10:06:58 the tpd2 page isn't exactly encouraging: 'Common Lisp is certainly not well suited to the project' 10:07:19 df_aldur: ego-boosting of the author, I guess :) 10:07:42 But in my reviews I was mostly criticized not for the slow algortithm, but for using Lisp, and flooding the stack with function calls 10:08:08 Oh no! Stack floods are the worst thing ever! 10:09:05 LakatosI: in my experience: if you really don't care about speed, then lisp can be slow. Well the application is slow. However, you can gradually throw things around so it becomes faster and faster. And it seems that 'slow' isn't really applicable when you optimize correctly. However, be warned for premature optimization 10:09:38 yes, I know 10:09:50 I did some optimization on my code after I submited my application 10:10:01 Now the code runs twice as fast as before 10:10:14 (not as fast as I hoped it would, but still, an improvement) 10:10:16 *madnificent* has thrown the lisp speed argument out for code that he unknowingly wrote badly as well :( 10:10:59 However, I find that my code should not be expected to be too fast 10:11:15 It's a webapplication that calculates timetables for conference workshops 10:11:47 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@124.76.14.42] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:11:54 LakatosI: it plans them? 10:12:01 And the jury seems to expect from our cod to be able to handle thousands of calculation requests a second 10:12:14 which seems to me kinda unrealistic 10:12:28 cods aren't very good at maths, I hear ;) 10:12:32 madnificent: Yeah, based on the user's preference of subjects 10:12:45 code* :P 10:12:52 isn't that NPC ? 10:13:15 madnificent: Each user specifies when he would be available to go to a workshop, and which workshop subject he prefers 10:13:27 HET2 [~diman@cpc12-cdif12-2-0-cust276.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:13:43 madnificent: The conference organizer specifies the subjects, the "teachers", and when they would be available to hold the workshops 10:13:52 HET3 [~diman@cpc12-cdif12-2-0-cust276.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:13:52 madnificent: NPC? 10:14:25 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc12-cdif12-2-0-cust276.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:14:37 LakatosI: np complete, aka 'hard to calculate'. aka: we don't know if it's feasible for large numbers (regardless of the language you write it in) 10:14:45 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:14:54 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 10:15:11 yes, I know 10:15:28 But still, we can approxiamte a good enough solution 10:15:50 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 10:15:53 *madnificent* thinks the language's speed will be roughly irrelevant in that case either case 10:15:55 there are a few heuristic algortihms 10:16:03 and with that I don't mean that lisp is slow, not by far 10:16:54 I mean in the past supercomputers were used to calculate things like these, and they would run for hours 10:17:24 Why this expectation for ridiculously fast code? 10:17:37 -!- xan_ [~xan@20.Red-83-34-105.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:18:03 I originally thought of using genetic algorithms, and stretch out the calculation for minutes or even hours :P 10:18:19 you could trade some space for time and cache the results 10:18:22 But that seemed a little too much :P 10:18:34 LakatosI: I think people see it as an interpreted language and don't realise you can do some good strict typing. Also, people complain about syntax being weird. These are the kind of things I find myself up against when talking to programmer buddies. 10:18:38 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 10:18:41 so that serving is essentially doing just IO, and you could be running the heuristics continuously on the background 10:18:49 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 10:18:51 I think that that's your argumentation: 1) lisp can be redonculously fast and 2) the algorithm you choose has a much greater impact than the language 10:19:54 chp [~chp@2001:da8:a000:155:5eff:35ff:fe0c:c3ef] has joined #lisp 10:19:59 aoh: I tried implmeneting some caching, but the size of my inputs are just too large and unpredictable to notice any benefit 10:20:32 -!- Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:21:45 madnificent: I will use those 10:21:59 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.207.212] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 10:22:13 I am also expecting questions on why I chose to use Lisp :P 10:22:20 because it is superior 10:22:23 LakatosI: it does seem odd to expect thousands of requests a second 10:22:34 My usual answer to people is because it's awesome 10:23:06 they have a hard problem, so it is better to use an advanced language 10:23:19 LakatosI: because of the long-lived languages (Fortran, Lisp, Cobol), Lisp is the one with the most progressive user-base (: 10:23:37 splittist: True :) 10:24:14 aoh: THat's true. At the beginning I didn't know exactly how I was going to aproach this problem. 10:24:27 its core language features are generally a superset of most other practical languages out there. 10:24:29 And Common Lisp was a good choice, seeing how flexible it is 10:25:00 Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.207.212] has joined #lisp 10:25:19 LakatosI: you read this? http://www.paulgraham.com/diff.html 10:25:25 wivlaro: Except for Lisp macroes. Nothing else has Lisp macroes. 10:25:40 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-186-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:26:01 the java-answer is so simple: "it's an industry-accepted language" 10:26:17 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:26:34 I am actualy disappointed by myself that I didn't use macroes in this project. They could have saved me a lot of typing. 10:26:53 It's just that I wasn't convinced that implementing the macroes were worth the effor 10:26:59 effort* 10:27:11 yes, it has every feature from every other language you might otherwise use, and then the ultimate feature of decent macros. 10:27:39 "make it work, make it right, make it fast" 10:27:53 (or something like that) 10:28:46 wivlaro: The one problem I have with CL is it's type system. And type checking is sadly a part of "make it work". 10:29:01 for me, the killer thing is being able to offload some tasks onto the compiler rather than having to have most everything worked out at run-time, and you can easily shift computation between compile, load and run time. 10:29:43 yeah... there's a lot of things right CL's types, but it could be better. 10:29:55 right *with* 10:30:10 ok i'll shut up now, before i get into trouble. 10:30:44 Shun the non-believer! 10:31:07 we're almost at the candy mountain! 10:31:07 Ok, thanks for all the tips 10:31:21 Watch out for the bla-bla-blas 10:31:51 It's like a continuum between Tcl (one type fits all) and Haskell (everything checked). Somewhere between them and you have problems. 10:32:31 alama [~alama@86.93.35.187] has joined #lisp 10:33:05 naryl: i don't! 10:33:14 Teach us! 10:33:21 By the way, Xach, what is wigflip.com running on? 10:33:32 LakatosI: steroids! 10:33:43 LakatosI: What do you mean? 10:33:55 It runs on a computer. 10:33:57 I mean on what server? 10:34:01 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 10:34:04 VPS? 10:34:05 naryl: it's easy. accept the life and things ase they are, and all problems suddenly disappear. 10:34:06 dedicated? 10:34:07 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 10:34:19 Where can I find such mythical computer? 10:34:25 s 10:34:37 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@75.95.236.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:34:38 LakatosI: server from serverbeach.com 10:34:53 core 2 duo 10:35:52 misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has joined #lisp 10:36:04 Also, what kind of server are you running? 10:37:05 I just said! 10:37:13 Rack mount? 10:37:35 wiv: Yes. They could go all out and get recursive types. :) 10:37:39 oudeis [~oudeis@62.219.245.18] has joined #lisp 10:37:51 Xach: Lol, sorry 10:38:15 What I meant is what kind of software is running on the server? 10:38:20 What powers your site? 10:38:27 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:39:00 LakatosI: Common Lisp http server, Common Lisp graphic generation libraries, ImageMagick 10:39:10 Jasko [~tjasko@75.95.236.229] has joined #lisp 10:39:10 mine runs on an old athlon xp 3000+ mobile :) 10:39:12 CL html templating & generation, CL "ajax" 10:39:17 Xach: you use hunchentoot, right? 10:39:21 It is lots of lisp 10:39:23 madnificent: TBNL 10:39:27 recursive types would be nice. we could have a strictly typed list then! yay 10:39:31 It's kittens all the way down, then 10:39:47 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 10:40:08 wivlaro: and checking it would take how much time? 10:40:31 Xach: ooh, old style 10:40:33 *wivlaro* holds his hands out 10:40:43 ._o_. 10:40:47 about yay much 10:41:17 (depending on the size of your font) 10:41:45 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@62.219.245.18] has quit [Client Quit] 10:42:01 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 10:43:15 if it ain't broke. 10:43:45 and lisp doesn't really have lists, it has conses, and it's hard to take a cons and say to which list it belongs 10:44:16 Xach: then break it and repair it again 10:44:28 Xach: I like it! I was going to ask: perhaps more importantly: how long has it been since you had to rewrite large parts because of an upgrade in something you didn't control 10:45:14 stassats: 'a sufficiently smart compiler' blablabla 10:45:21 upgrade? 10:45:40 I'm running sbcl 1.0.6 10:45:55 "so old it made the news" 10:45:59 Xach: you should be able to upgrade that without any side-effects, but I understand :) 10:46:06 haha 10:46:13 stassats: Yes. I wish they'd been called 'chains' rather than overloading 'list'. 10:46:23 Xach: i bet it got a metric ton of security vulnerabilities! 10:47:10 workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 10:47:14 Yuzu- [~yuzuchan@p5052-ipad406osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:47:56 *stassats* resorts to exploiting wigflip.com and steal Xach's money to buy a golden-cased iPad2 10:49:20 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@m8a5736d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:49:59 Kneferilis [d41f62d2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.31.98.210] has joined #lisp 10:50:08 do macros only work at compile time? 10:50:31 they generate the code at compiling and then at runtime you run the generated code? 10:50:43 basically 10:50:45 <|3b|> compilation is required to expand macros 10:50:53 they work before compiling, and before running 10:51:12 -!- naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has left #lisp 10:51:14 <|3b|> they are still expanded (possibly multiple times) during evaluation of non-compiled code though 10:51:21 it's a good mental model, it's not strictly accurate or complete 10:51:23 naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has joined #lisp 10:51:54 can't I use macros that will generate code based on input during runtime? 10:52:14 you can expand to code that branches at runtime 10:52:15 You can. 10:52:48 but why would you want to? 10:52:56 workthrick: I'd love to see a backtrace the next time it happens. <-- hmm, that'll need some poking to produce a useful one, but sure, it's very easy to trigger, just C-c while buildapp is doing its thing on win32 10:53:18 and next time I run it, it tries to create a temp file with the same name 10:53:22 stassats: every time a macro expands into loop its runtime dependent 10:53:35 eh? 10:53:48 dcorking [~dcorking@82.152.210.11] has joined #lisp 10:53:57 expand what you're saying, please 10:53:59 stassats: it can be useful to generate code at runtime, I did that with PHP/Javascript in a web application project 10:54:07 oh sorry, misunderstood Kneferilis sentence 10:54:16 ehu` [~ehuels@109.35.87.10] has joined #lisp 10:54:19 Kneferilis: it can be, but you wouldn't use macros for that 10:54:20 Kneferilis: it can be done, but most of the time, it's the wrong solution 10:54:26 <|3b|> you can do whatever you want at runtime, you still have the full compiler available unless you made an effort to get rid of it 10:54:40 I see. 10:54:49 <|3b|> closures are frequently a better idea though 10:54:52 arbscht: I have to say I miss your weekly repl! 10:55:05 also, what would be the reason to us macros to generate code in compiling time, to write less code? 10:55:05 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.207.212] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 10:55:47 C-Keen: as do I :( 10:55:56 <|3b|> depends on how far you want to fall into the turing tarpit 10:55:59 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.230.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:56:13 to write code which can't be written straightforwardly using functions 10:56:23 <|3b|> at a high level, you want a macro whenever you want something that doesn't use normal CL evaluation rules 10:56:45 <|3b|> which might be as little as saving a few ' characters, or could be compiling some completely different language 10:56:49 -!- luke__ [~luke@2.103.108.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:57:09 luke__ [~luke@2.103.110.48] has joined #lisp 10:57:41 sellout- [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:57:53 arbscht: what happened? Real life interruptions? Lack of motivation? 10:57:59 <|3b|> those probably count as 'write less code', since if you really wanted to you could just write out the ' and wrap chunks of code in lambdas, etc 10:58:34 C-Keen: the former, not the latter. I am working on various other things that will eventually allow the repl to resume, hopefully within months 10:59:00 <|3b|> there is also the possibility of generating specialized code for a particular usage with macros (though with a good compiler ininling takes care of a lot of those situations) 10:59:09 <|3b|> *inlining 10:59:17 oh, here it is! 10:59:26 Kneferilis: http://xach.livejournal.com/131456.html?thread=224384 10:59:30 Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.207.212] has joined #lisp 10:59:36 workthrick: thanks 11:02:13 |3b|: and also compiler-macros take care of that, though they are very much macros, just "invisible" ones 11:03:31 arbscht: Glad to hear that! I am looking forward to it! 11:05:27 rexim [~rexim@91.204.184.177] has joined #lisp 11:05:48 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-186-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 11:07:17 got to go 11:07:21 goodbye 11:07:23 -!- Kneferilis [d41f62d2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.31.98.210] has left #lisp 11:08:13 c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-mysmqoxqdazycslu] has joined #lisp 11:10:27 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:11:22 katesmith [~katesmith@97-89-229-3.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 11:11:22 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@97-89-229-3.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 11:11:22 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 11:11:27 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:12:24 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:12:37 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:12:39 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 11:14:41 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:15:23 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 11:19:37 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.207.212] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 11:23:00 Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.207.212] has joined #lisp 11:23:19 -!- luke__ [~luke@2.103.110.48] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:23:41 -!- akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-093-204.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:24:10 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:28:37 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.133.122] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:29:39 luke__ [~luke@2.103.110.175] has joined #lisp 11:32:14 -!- alama [~alama@86.93.35.187] has quit [Quit: alama] 11:32:43 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:35:11 -!- ehu` [~ehuels@109.35.87.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:35:20 Is there a way to daemonize a lisp program? 11:35:24 besides uzing screen? 11:36:28 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.87.10] has joined #lisp 11:36:30 minion: detachtty? 11:36:30 detachtty: detachtty is a Unix system programming utility that lets you run interactive programs (such as Lisp) non-interactively. http://www.cliki.net/detachtty 11:36:47 but screen is nicer 11:36:56 akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-093-204.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:38:09 I was told by one of the jury members that using screen was a naive aproach to daemonize... what on earth does that mean? 11:39:16 LakatosI: cl-daemonization or smth. Let me look it up. IIRC only the developer uses it. 11:39:20 screen is a program that can be used to run processes in the background and connect/disconnect them to a terminal 11:39:33 LakatosI: That practicality is not a very high concern for the jury member. 11:39:49 LakatosI: you could say "screen uses very few function calls on the stack, avoiding floods" 11:39:59 Xach: Good point :) 11:40:14 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.207.212] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 11:40:40 LakatosI: http://www.cliki.net/cl-daemonize 11:40:52 Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.207.212] has joined #lisp 11:41:29 SBCL and Linux only. 11:41:35 :/ 11:41:36 -!- HET3 [~diman@cpc12-cdif12-2-0-cust276.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:41:40 Interesting 11:42:40 But I think screen is also usefull for debugging and editing my program 11:42:50 Is it a good idea for an implementation to output a PATHNAME namestring that ignores the VERSION? 11:43:06 Oh, I always wanted to ask this question 11:43:43 Let's say I am running SLIME and in another buffer I have the source code of the program opened 11:43:59 -!- akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-093-204.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:44:32 If I modify some of the source code and recompile and load it, will the already running program switch to the new code, or will it still use the old version? 11:44:42 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:45:33 hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 11:45:40 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.207.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:45:59 LakatosI: we are using start-stop-daemon , but I dont even recall the reasons why that was chosen over screen at the time. I think it might have been a coworker who couldnt get screen to behave 11:47:03 akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-093-204.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:48:01 LakatosI: depends on a lot of things. what is "code". If its a macro def, you probably need to recompile everything that uses it, if it is a class def or a function def, most things will get the new definition. also safety speed and debug affect these things 11:48:34 I see 11:48:53 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:51:47 sellout- [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:52:45 is it just me that thinks 'functional calls flooding the call stacks' is the lamest argument against any sort of complex application architecture 11:53:14 i've seen enough 100s of line long procedures to know that that is not a good idea 11:53:15 LakatosI: pcos had a cute use-case for ContextL based on live-updating a webserver at ILC/MIT. 11:53:33 What is the call stack for? 11:53:56 urandom__ [~user@p548A3F8B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:54:25 s/is/else is/ 11:54:45 Guthur: I agree. I love declaring functions and reusing them everywhere 11:54:49 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-186-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:54:53 Nice and short functions... 11:55:42 As a rule of thumb I use my palm to judge how good my program is :) If a function is longer than the width of my palm, then I'm doing something wrong :P 11:56:16 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-128-16.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 11:56:44 LakatosI: and what line length do you allow? ;-) 11:56:56 splittist: It's a memory in which your computer memorizez it's position in the program when a function is called, so it can easily return to where it left off 11:57:31 flip214: I usually don't let it get wider than 3/4 of my screen width :P 11:57:56 oudeis [~oudeis@82.166.248.14] has joined #lisp 11:58:29 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 11:58:58 splittist: Basically whenever you call a function your position in the code is saved in the call stack, the function is run, values returned, and then your position is popped out of the stack and life continues on 11:59:49 If you have a lot of nested functions then your stack grows and grows until it bursts open 11:59:56 LakatosI: and how many characters is ¾ of your screen? In the train I've seen someone with a 15" notebook, having, oh, about 500x200 characters in the window 11:59:59 And yeah, that usually never happens :P 12:00:01 LakatosI: yes - I meant 'what else is the call stack for than being flooded by function calls?' 'Don't switch on the light, you'll flood the wire with electrons'... 12:00:27 (not the greatest analogy, I'll admit) 12:00:47 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.209.120] has joined #lisp 12:01:01 "Don't sit on the couch, it might get dirty" 12:01:17 flip214: I'm using emacs with the default fonts on, so I can only have like 200 characters in a line most of the time 12:01:44 I mean 150 12:01:48 I don't know 12:02:40 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-128-16.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:02:40 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-45.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:02:53 i like functions not longer than 5 lines 12:03:12 maybe 10 for some kinky LOOP 12:04:16 zmv [~daniel@c9533906.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 12:05:14 -!- Yuzu- is now known as Yuzu-DEAD 12:07:01 then please advise me ... in macros which have a fair bit of local state the loops get much longer - is it better to pass a lot of state around, and destructure the return values to use them? 12:07:20 LakatosI: out of curiosity what position/role have these people got 12:07:27 -!- topeak [~topeak@123.114.127.202] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:07:29 the ones going on about call stacks 12:08:38 flip214: in _macros_? 12:09:19 -!- zmv [~daniel@c9533906.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:09:24 stassats: yes ... if you're interested, I'd love to get feedback, see https://github.com/phmarek/threading-queue 12:09:46 Guthur: To my horror they are either professors or graduated students from my Computer Science College/Faculty/whatever or actuall programmers 12:09:57 the macro has some options that change code generation ... and parsing, verification, etc. take a fair amount of code 12:10:17 I'm trying to rewrite its main loop anyway ... but any hints are welcome 12:10:49 threading-feed? whoo, that's scary 12:10:54 And from their reviews I gather that they are obsessed with modern web technologies, socialization, shiny things, etc. 12:11:22 did you know that macros can be split too? you can have functions which return code 12:12:41 zmv [~daniel@c9533906.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 12:12:47 stassats: yes, there are already some functions ... 12:12:48 ok, you did know 12:13:24 perhaps its a bad example - depending on the options I have to generate variables, code, and/or functions ... 12:13:46 alright, my advise: put as much as you can into functions (not functions generating code, which do work), and use macros only to glue them together 12:13:57 s/advise/advice/ 12:14:21 well, it's mostly one macro, with helper functions anyway ... 12:14:25 s/which/but which/ 12:14:35 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@82.166.248.14] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:14:46 I'm rewriting it anyway, perhaps it gets prettier 12:15:11 -!- akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-093-204.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:15:15 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 12:17:57 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 12:18:30 -!- Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@1807ds2-noe.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:19:46 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:21:07 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 12:22:53 flip214: the code for Closette is pretty clean, I seem to remember, if you want to look at how they handled DEFCLASS etc. 12:23:24 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:23:44 splittist: thanks, I'll take a look. 12:25:29 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75eabc.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:07 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-146-76.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 12:27:47 akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-093-204.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:28:42 lusory [~bart@bb121-6-156-104.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 12:39:15 Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:40:47 z777 [~user@183.62.131.179] has joined #lisp 12:45:34 sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has joined #lisp 12:46:12 what could cause sbcl to wrongly look in ~/.cache instead of ~/.sbcl ? like this: 0: (SB-IMPL::SIMPLE-FILE-PERROR "error opening ~S" #P"/home/david1/.cache/common-lisp/sbcl-1.0.40.0.debian-linux-x86/home/david1/.sbcl/site/torta/freeserif.fo" 2) 12:47:33 jweiss [~user@cpe-069-134-063-238.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:47:52 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:47:55 dcorking: a new asdf 12:48:12 -!- akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-093-204.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:48:15 dcorking: did you upgrade it recently? 12:48:55 akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-093-204.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:50:32 benny` [~benny@i577A1157.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:51:19 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 12:51:54 tfb [~tfb@92.40.248.120.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:54:29 yes prxq, I suspected asdf - but actually I upgraded everything. I am using older code - gordon/torta - written in 2006 - and I wonder if asdf semantics have changed 12:54:32 -!- benny` is now known as benny 12:55:17 dcorking: you probably are using *load-pathname* (or truename); using asdf:system-relative-pathname might work 12:55:41 dcorking: asdf now uses by default what was previously known as asdf-binary-locations 12:56:30 jdz - ok - I will look - back soon 12:57:06 -!- jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.33.150] has left #lisp 12:57:09 jdz: not quite. it's a similar idea, different implementation. 12:57:09 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl15-230-254.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 12:57:25 Xach: yeah, that was my point, poorly expressed apparently. 12:57:34 Yuzu- [~yuzuchan@p5052-ipad406osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:58:23 is there a way to tell asdf just to go back to the old behaviour - which iirc didn't use cache's and stored all the binaries in ~/.sbcl ? 12:58:54 morphling [~stefan@77.0.33.125] has joined #lisp 12:59:27 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-150-156.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:59:52 -!- Yuzu-DEAD [~yuzuchan@p5052-ipad406osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:00:15 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:00:32 dcorking: (asdf:disable-output-translations) - but it didn't put things in ~/.sbcl/, it put them alongside the .lisp files. 13:02:23 Xach, my .lisp files are in ~/.sbcl/site/torta/torta.lisp - for example - where they always were, iirc. I will try your suggestion. 13:04:00 -!- ineiros [~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:04:02 sellout- [~Adium@64.134.41.5] has joined #lisp 13:04:03 -!- akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-093-204.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:04:38 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75eabc.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:05:04 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75eabc.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 13:05:09 hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 13:05:09 -!- loke [~elias@bb219-74-213-69.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:05:36 akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-093-204.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:08:46 is there any library for CL that allows connecting to some other CL process through TCP and running something there? 13:09:23 I know htere is XML-RPC and JSON-RPC, but I would prefer something simpler and lisp-only 13:09:47 freiksenet: http://www.cliki.net/distributed 13:09:49 swank? 13:09:55 i wouldn't say it's simple 13:10:02 friek: Why reject interoperability/ :) 13:10:17 freiksenet: i'm planning to check out cl-mw 13:10:20 the protocol is simple 13:10:20 cause I need quickanddirty solution that will work ) 13:10:32 with as little pain as possible. 13:11:09 I currently have a very heavy part of the code that kinda blocks stuff when it runs. I want to separate it to separate 'server' so that ti won't block so much 13:11:26 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:11:31 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-32-11-41.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 13:11:53 freiksenet: drakma and huchentoot to build yourself something in an hour or two? :) 13:12:20 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.219] has joined #lisp 13:12:25 yeah, I will fall back to that if I find nothing else 13:13:47 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:13:49 freiksenet: does it need to run in separate process/machine? 13:13:51 nikodemus_ [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:14:07 p_l|backup: just separate process 13:14:15 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:14:26 freiksenet: fork? and set the priorities right? 13:14:42 also, you might get surprising results from OS tuning :P 13:14:48 -!- sonnym1 [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:15:10 francogrex [~user@109.130.13.129] has joined #lisp 13:15:21 freiksenet: Zeromq is good for that sort of stuff 13:15:31 it will allow you easily scale as well 13:15:52 no, you misunderstood my problem. we have a web server, and currently on start in does a very big and long computation that takes about 15 minutes. we decided that we ant that computation should be separated to separate "server" that will be somehow called by web server, so that webserver restart is fast 13:16:13 I thought simple rpc is the best solution for that 13:16:29 -!- am0c [~am0c@112.149.169.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:16:42 if it's all internal you could send the sexp via zeromq and eval 13:16:57 Xach, torta now working again. Thanks 1E6. 13:17:13 Guthur: I'll take a look, thanks 13:17:27 haha, I read it "Thanks IE6". hahahaha 13:17:31 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.87.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:17:49 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.232.13] has joined #lisp 13:17:53 dcorking: Next month you'll be able to get it with quicklisp! 13:17:59 -!- akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-093-204.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:19:13 Xach - do you mean to say that quicklisp is agnostic to asdf pathname semantics, or merely that I will be able to get the latest stuff without relying on Debian repos? Either way sounds neat. 13:19:15 -!- foocraft_ [~ewanas@89.211.174.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:19:17 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.13.129] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:19:46 dcorking: I mean that you can get the latest stuff with quicklisp. With luck it might even work. 13:20:25 freiksenet: you can check out http://zguide.zeromq.org/, for some zeromq recipes 13:21:36 loke_ [~elias@bb119-74-156-190.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 13:21:57 alama [~alama@n138232.science.ru.nl] has joined #lisp 13:22:29 hum. i wonder how long has emacs not been highlighting compiler notes for me from C-c C-c 13:23:18 zmv, haha, I have ies4linux here, but they haven't developed consciousness yet: so the million thanks are due to Zach 13:23:27 ok, that's better 13:25:17 akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-093-204.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:25:23 -!- loke_ [~elias@bb119-74-156-190.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:27:02 iori [~iori@110-133-45-54.rev.home.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:27:20 attila_lendvai: I'm assuming that you saw my mail re. the EOF condition you had been asking about on cl-plus-ssl-devel. 13:27:53 Now I'm confused -- the darcs code for your webserver which you mentioned in your previous mail looked to me like you're implementing parts of CL+SSL yourself, based only on lower-level code from CL+SSL. 13:27:55 suncica2222 [dfgfdgdfgd@217.26.215.127] has joined #lisp 13:27:56 lichtblau: yes, my patch is inspired by my thoughts 13:28:40 In that implementation, I would have thought that a single HANDLER-CASE in your code should be sufficient to solve the problem; CL+SSL has that HANDLER-CASE in its gray stream method, and it was just missing in yours. 13:29:10 So... how does that fit in with the more extensive changes from your second mail? 13:29:19 lichtblau: my web-server is prepared for call/cc based connection multiplexing and high load handling, and for that it makes a compromise: while parsing the request it stays away from the stream based API and only uses it when delivering the response 13:29:28 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:29:40 *attila_lendvai* looks again 13:29:40 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.161.86] has joined #lisp 13:29:40 make-something is constructor actually? 13:29:41 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.133.122] has joined #lisp 13:29:46 make-... 13:30:45 TristamWrk [8071f149@gateway/web/freenode/ip.128.113.241.73] has joined #lisp 13:30:58 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:31:27 foocraft_ [~ewanas@78.101.90.123] has joined #lisp 13:31:50 it can be a constructor 13:31:59 lichtblau: you mean the ssl-error-zero-return condition? I think it confused me due to its name or I'm just simply too slow to get what you meant in your answer. but I think my changes are still preferable because the error is a cl:stream-error and an cl:end-of-file error... no? 13:33:02 lichtblau: s/my thoughts/your thoughts/ 13:33:43 hg pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122210 13:33:58 well, we're talking about errno handling in a layer below streams, so it's unrelated to CL's end-of-file error. 13:34:07 -!- jingtao`` [~jingtaozf@123.120.33.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:34:23 (...and for CGI it's also better to stay away from streams and their buffers) 13:35:05 can someone write me call example for playgame function? 13:35:06 The stream class is responsible for recognizing the error code as "EOF" in the sense of the stream. And gray streams do not use conditions for that, they return a value. 13:35:11 here is the code 13:35:12 http://paste.lisp.org/+2MAQ 13:35:31 lichtblau: you mean a hangup on a socket is usually not modeled with an end-of-file? (I'm in fact not experienced in network code, so I don't know, just asking) 13:35:45 line 179 13:35:46 suncica2222: unless you specify otherwise, defstruct creates several functions automatically for you 13:35:47 (defun playgame (n depth p1-fun player1 p2-fun player2 &key p1-init p2-init) 13:36:05 need to call this 13:36:18 attila_lendvai: READ-CHAR signals an ERROR if its call to STREAM-READ-CHAR returns the eof value. 13:36:30 <|3b|> suncica2222: did you read the comment above the definition of that function? 13:37:03 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@240.29.195.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:37:30 yes 13:37:37 and that call dont work 13:37:44 it need 6 parameters 13:37:55 actually s/read-char/read-byte/ in this case, but you get the picture. We return :EOF in STREAM-READ-BYTE, and the Lisp impl turns that into the condition. 13:37:55 suncica2222: here's an example call: (playgame n depth p1-fun player1 p2-fun player2 :p1-init p1-init :p2-init p2-init) 13:38:24 will try 13:38:40 I agree that SSL_ERROR_ZERO_RETURN is a confusing name, but the condition inside of CL+SSL reflects OpenSSL error codes, and that's OpenSSL's name for EOF in SSL_read. 13:38:43 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:39:07 splittist: Error: Attempt to take the value of the unbound variable `N'. 13:39:18 aha ok... 13:39:24 Ill make numb 13:40:04 amb007 [~a_bakic@240.29.195.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 13:40:12 comfortably numb, I hope 13:40:15 <|3b|> well, human-play ignores depth, so probably doesn't matter what you pass there 13:40:25 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:40:40 Error: Attempt to take the value of the unbound variable `P1-FUN'. 13:41:09 <|3b|> and the comment at the top says what it should mean otherwise, so shouldn't be too hard to pick a value if you pass a function that does use it as specified 13:41:19 -!- Calyce [~julie@248.79-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:42:05 (And personally I doubt that conditions are the right mechanism to handle error codes that routinely need to be caught, but the condition predates my involvement with the code base, and so far I've left it in.) 13:42:33 -!- psilord [~psilord@ppp-70-226-163-151.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has left #lisp 13:42:33 lichtblau: so, what you propose is to leave things as they are, and that could work for me. but I'll need a reliable way to detect whether a given error came "from" the client network stream, so that it can be taken less serious than e.g. an error from an SSL database connection... hence my ssl-stream-error addition (I have a (is-error-from-client-stream? error client-stream/) predicate in the web-server code) 13:43:08 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 13:43:24 |3b|: why in comment there is example call with 5 parmas when it needs 6? 13:43:32 params* 13:43:35 -!- akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-093-204.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:43:43 <|3b|> suncica2222: you'd have to ask the author of that comment 13:43:54 *|3b|* would guess either the comment is wrong, or the code is wrong 13:44:18 <|3b|> not that hard to add another parameter to the example call to make it work though 13:46:11 from that code what type arg player is? 13:46:26 (defun check-complete (player box) 13:46:33 list or string? 13:46:39 player? 13:46:51 attila_lendvai: I thought SSL-ERROR would serve that purpose? 13:47:10 <|3b|> given the example call, it appears to be a symbol 13:47:15 akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-093-204.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:47:38 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.133.122] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:47:56 Any error codes currently signalled as a subclass of ssl-error which are not an actual error for your purposes are automatically handled within CL+SSL code, so any handler-bind/case you'd write would never get to see them. 13:48:00 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.133.122] has joined #lisp 13:48:00 lichtblau: I need to get hold of preferably both the underlying stream and/or the fd, but the fd can be enough in itself... 13:48:25 Calyce [~julie@10.110-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 13:48:55 what is '-' in lisp? operator some kind? 13:48:56 (defun playgame (n depth p1-fun player1 p2-fun player2 &key p1-init p2-init) 13:49:03 - is a letter, like q. 13:49:04 p1-fun 13:49:05 ? 13:49:09 -!- splittist [~splittist@160-51.62-81.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:49:20 SBCL can't create an image because eager-future creates worker threads immediately when loaded. Is there a way to make it create threads on some explicit call? 13:49:30 suncica2222: just part of the name / symbol 13:49:36 ok 13:49:37 suncica2222: The character "-" doesn't have any speciala meaning. 13:49:40 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-17-206-5.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:42 <|3b|> p1-fun is just a symbol, naming an argument of playgame in this case 13:49:43 ok 13:49:46 lichtblau: (just a random thought: if you ever get into refactoring cl+ssl then it's a good idea to have two strictly separate and usable API's, one being the stream API, the other a functional lower-level layer of the openssl lib) 13:49:47 pnq [~nick@AC81DCD4.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 13:49:47 aha. In that case, reduce the diff to the point where it just adds a STREAM slot to SSL-ERROR and, change SSL-SIGNAL-ERROR only to pass that initarg in? 13:50:08 cbp [~Cesar@189.139.219.96] has joined #lisp 13:50:15 sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 13:50:17 vlaube1 [~Adium@ip-109-45-34-118.web.vodafone.de] has joined #lisp 13:50:19 lichtblau: ok, I'll prepare a new patch for that 13:51:02 OK. I was more thinking of just forking cl+ssl into iolib.ssl. But you're right, there could be iolib.ssl and cl+ssl both depending on cl-openssl. 13:51:07 and &key isnt used anywhere...can i delete it? 13:51:09 (defun playgame (n depth p1-fun player1 p2-fun player2 &key p1-init p2-init) 13:51:28 <|3b|> suncica2222: you should probably learn lisp before trying to use lisp code 13:51:29 lichtblau: although that will go against my previous proposal for two independent API's... 13:51:37 lichtblau: I mean adding a stream slot 13:51:55 What are the chances I can depend on (open x :if-exists nil) always returning nil to one of two threads who evaluate that with the same value for x at the "same" time? 13:52:20 Or rather, (open x :direction :output :if-exists nil :if-does-not-exist :create) 13:52:22 Or something. 13:52:22 i will but im trying to compile this example so I can use it and practise on it 13:52:25 Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-dhtqbndvjeaeyelx] has joined #lisp 13:52:29 suncica2222: The symbol &key has a special meaning in the lambda list. 13:52:52 giga: Implementation specific, surely. 13:52:52 I think the low-level library would use multiple return values, and the condition would be a high-level library thing. BICBW 13:52:53 naryl: thanx 13:53:18 lichtblau: if I have enough steam... shall I look into extracting a cl-openssl repo? 13:53:36 lichtblau: where are these plans on your TODO? 13:53:45 -!- akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-093-204.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:54:16 -!- vlaube1 [~Adium@ip-109-45-34-118.web.vodafone.de] has left #lisp 13:54:21 Zhivago: yeah. I was hoping there was some nook of the the spec that I was missing. 13:54:25 Anyway, in SBCL? 13:54:37 Being there no threads in the sepec. :) 13:55:00 Presumably it drops down to a single open() call, in which case you're fine. 13:55:27 suncica2222: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/functions.html 13:56:27 lichtblau: I'm personally not that much against conditions in the lower layer... if they are not used on the main code-path, then they are not even slowing the code down, and a remote hangup is in a way a condition that can happen at scattered random points of the code 13:56:56 ...not to mention the other more "normal" errors 13:56:59 gigamonkey: in SBCL, open uses the O_EXCL flag to open(2). 13:57:03 mobydick [~textual@124-171-177-47.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 13:57:11 Xach: which does what I want? 13:57:15 gigamonkey: yes. 13:57:16 attila_lendvai: iolib.ssl is on my todo list, but after windows threads, i.e. realistically later this year. 13:57:20 gigamonkey: same with :if-exists :error 13:57:55 Thanks. 13:57:59 attila_lendvai: better low-level bindings (for crypto stuff, etc.) are more on Anton's todo list than mine AFAICT, so better ask him. 13:59:06 lichtblau: have you considered using gnutls or nss instead ? 13:59:18 Xach: what is that css-selectors lib that got added to Quicklisp? 13:59:31 My quick web search didn't find anything that actually said what it was for, just how it's implemented. 14:00:35 lichtblau: ok. I'll shrink my patch to the minimal and write these plans up on the list, suggesting we add it to the todo.txt 14:00:44 fe[nl]ix: in an ideal world I'd like to support both OpenSSL and GnuTLS. I'm don't know anything about NSS except that it exists. 14:00:47 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp 14:02:39 fe[nl]ix: architecturally, if iolib.ssl needs wrapper functions, would you prefer having those in libfixposix or in a new libiolibssl? 14:03:01 gigamonkey: Im the author of that, it selects nodes from cxml dom documents 14:03:15 WHat is float to pointer coercion? 14:03:21 (In the former case, it would still compile without SSL support if autoconf doesn't find a backend library, of course.) 14:03:25 LakatosI: boxing. 14:03:29 oudeis [~oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 14:03:42 lichtblau: the latter, because we would need it on windows too 14:03:52 Xach: Is that a good thing? 14:04:04 LakatosI: it has a space and speed penalty. 14:04:05 bobbysmith007: Can you use it in reverse, i.e. given a node, check whether it would be selected by a particular selector? 14:04:09 gigamonkey: I use it to ease composability while building up xhtml document in some web-apps 14:04:24 http://paste.lisp.org/display/122210 14:04:27 gigamonkey: yes, there is a node-matches? function that will tell you whether a given node matches the selector 14:04:37 what is export on the start of the code? 14:04:39 Xach:... hm... Is there a general way to avoid this? 14:04:49 with all functions names listed? 14:05:05 (export '(make-box copy-box box-p bo... 14:05:06 LakatosI: One option is to manage the boxing yourself. You can do that by passing around arrays of floats. 14:05:11 bobbysmith007: I've been toying with the idea of writing a csslint that craws a web site and grabs all the CSS and then finds dead CSS rules and things that can be pushed up, etc. 14:05:16 -!- kephas [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-105-118.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:05:19 suncica2222: it controls how you may refer to symbols. 14:05:26 Howewer that would require implementing all the specificity rules. 14:05:29 Does your thing do that? 14:05:42 Xach: I was doing that already. 14:05:44 Xach: Got it 14:05:54 gigamonkey: ahh, this might be a reasonable start, but it only supports the selectors (so you would have to write something to pull those from the css file) 14:06:03 Xach: Apparently print has a thing for boxes 14:06:10 And you don't parse the rules at all, I take it. 14:06:32 Anyway, if I ever give in to this urge, I'll check your thing out. 14:06:33 Xach: can you give me some analogy of export in lisp with something simmilar in C++ or java? 14:06:33 gigamonkey: correct 14:06:42 Is it on github or anything? 14:06:45 akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-093-204.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:06:51 Ok, now this code confuses me 14:06:53 gigamonkey: https://github.com/bobbysmith007/css-selectors 14:07:00 bobbysmith007: thanks. 14:07:05 note*: doing float to pointer coercion (cost 13) from SCORE to "" 14:07:43 Do I have to specify the return value of the function? 14:07:58 suncica2222: I can't. 14:08:11 LakatosI: it won't matter. That value must be boxed and heap allocated to be returned. 14:08:12 <|3b|> LakatosI: most CL implementations require type information to be stored with all values, so if the value is too large to fit into a machine word along with the type information, it has to have extra storage allocated for it, which is referred to as 'boxing' 14:08:13 fe[nl]ix, lichtblau: you should be more reluctant of adding extra C libs to the dependency... ask Xach about the headache it is for quicklisp... :) (but seriously, I can see how it's a pain otherwise... although, if no wrappers are needed, then having a lisp-only abstraction layer above the different C SSL impls is preferable imho) 14:08:21 oudeis_ [~oudeis@bzq-109-65-4-147.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:27 leyyer_su [~user@118.113.24.211] has joined #lisp 14:08:55 I see 14:09:12 damn... 14:09:40 -!- Yuzu- [~yuzuchan@p5052-ipad406osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 14:10:19 attila_lendvai: I agree. But the main problem is hunchentoot, and it shouldn't depend on CL+SSL anyway. I'm thinking that iolib.ssl would be two defsystems, one for API functions without an FFI dependency (hunchentoot would depend on that), and a separate implementation system for FFI. 14:10:20 <|3b|> if the performance of boxing the return value is a problem, you might preallocate a typed array to store the value in, or if the function is small, inlining it might let the value stay unboxed 14:11:02 -!- akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-093-204.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:11:03 Users would have to load-op the latter explicitly, otherwise API functions are loaded but just give an "SSL implementation not loaded" error. 14:11:23 <|3b|> (it might let it stay unboxed for large functions too, but then code size is an issue, and large functions should probably be doing enough work for return speed to not matter anyway) 14:11:24 milanj [~milanj_@79-101-138-223.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 14:11:48 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 14:11:54 And probably a usocket-compat around iolib to keep the usocket-loving hunchentoot users happy while allowing me to run it with iolib... 14:11:59 is string a symbol in lisp? 14:12:11 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:12:14 <|3b|> suncica2222: no 14:12:28 <|3b|> suncica2222: symbols' names are strings though 14:12:47 -!- oudeis_ [~oudeis@bzq-109-65-4-147.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:12:59 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:13:13 so symbol is a variable? 14:13:23 <|3b|> no 14:13:37 <|3b|> variables' names are symbols though 14:14:05 oudeis [~oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 14:14:05 suncica2222: http://gigamonkeys.com/book/programming-in-the-large-packages-and-symbols.html 14:14:07 *|3b|* wonders if there is something named by a variable, so we can continue the patterm 14:14:22 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:14:24 |3b|: a binding. 14:14:30 |3b|: How do I do inlinging? 14:14:34 I forgot :\ 14:14:49 <|3b|> LakatosI: (declaim (inline foo0) before defining foo 14:14:57 ok 14:15:01 <|3b|> s/foo0/foo)/ 14:15:06 thanks 14:15:24 oudeis [~oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 14:15:38 <|3b|> note that you still get compilation notes from the main definition, in addition to notes from the inlined locations 14:16:27 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 14:16:35 *|3b|* frequently doesn't bother declaring optimize on the main definition if it is only used inline in optimized functions 14:17:04 -!- z777 [~user@183.62.131.179] has left #lisp 14:18:01 -!- LakatosI [557a1e03@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.122.30.3] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:18:48 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:19:36 oudeis [~oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 14:19:52 akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-093-204.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:20:24 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:20:51 wislin [~user@61.188.238.13] has joined #lisp 14:21:15 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:21:19 Good evening , everyone! 14:22:16 tcr2 [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 14:22:16 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:23:07 -!- leyyer_su [~user@118.113.24.211] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:23:09 killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 14:23:10 workthrick: I can't reproduce with sbcl/win32 here. 14:23:25 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 14:23:27 using sbcl 1.0.37 and windows xp. 14:23:56 -!- wislin [~user@61.188.238.13] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:25:20 Xach: using 1.0.45-threads and xp 14:25:23 will look into it later 14:26:04 lichtblau: I should write a blog entry finally about our hu.dwim.web-server and then you'll forget hunchentooth... ;) 14:26:45 workthrick: Is there an easy installer for that version somewhere? 14:27:10 splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 14:27:11 I'd like to pass an object to format function and make it readeable, should I implement a to-string method, or there is a more common pattern ? 14:27:26 <|3b|> clhs print-object 14:27:26 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_pr_obj.htm 14:27:40 Xach: http://www.siftsoft.com/inprogress/forknews.html 14:28:17 thanks. 14:29:02 what is # in lisp? 14:29:09 const? 14:29:12 A read macro. 14:29:14 <|3b|> suncica2222: a dispatching macro character 14:29:23 ok 14:29:33 <|3b|> which means it depends on the next character to determine what it does 14:29:37 |3b|, but print-object wants a stream 14:30:01 <|3b|> kiuma: you don't call print-object, you define methods on it and other things call it 14:30:18 <|3b|> clhs 22.2.1.4 14:30:19 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_bad.htm 14:30:21 (Like print). 14:30:29 <|3b|> ^ is another option 14:31:22 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:31:39 symbol is an atom? 14:32:01 everything is an atom that isn't a cons or NIL 14:32:07 Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@1807ds2-noe.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 14:32:09 <|3b|> anything that isn't a cons is an atom 14:32:35 mathrick: it looks to me like a bug in that version of sbcl, not in buildapp. 14:32:43 <|3b|> NIL is an atom 14:32:55 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.133.122] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:32:57 mathrick: (open "foo.txt" :direction :output :if-exists nil) is specified to return NIL if foo.txt exists. that sbcl version signals an error. 14:33:16 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.133.122] has joined #lisp 14:33:18 atom is meaningful with respect to sexps. 14:33:28 ok 14:33:32 thanx 14:33:57 *Xach* tries 1.0.48 from sbcl.org 14:34:00 -!- zmv [~daniel@c9533906.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:34:09 McMAGIC--Copy [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 14:34:24 but cons is just a function... 14:34:25 -!- aerique [310225@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 14:34:31 muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:34:34 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:34:45 <|3b|> cons is a symbol, which names multiple things, including a function, a type, etc 14:35:04 ok 14:35:07 (class-of (cons 1 2)) 14:35:28 workthrick: the bug is not present in mainline sbcl 1.0.48 for windows. 14:35:29 -!- mobydick [~textual@124-171-177-47.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 14:37:02 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl15-230-254.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 14:37:15 *|3b|* wonders where those unfinished libgit2 bindings went, while i'm dumping random unfinished stuff on github 14:37:24 -!- tylerdmace [~tyler@c-67-177-17-192.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:38:26 allegro cant take more than 7-8 function defines at once? 14:38:43 *|3b|* doesn't know what you mean by that 14:39:11 print-object works great :) 14:39:12 what IDE are you working in? 14:39:18 1266930381 14:39:18 oops pls dont prank call that number 14:39:24 *|3b|* uses slime + sbcl 14:40:25 *|3b|* wouldn't have even guessed it was that sort of number without the hint :p 14:40:45 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 14:41:34 workthrick: easy way to reproduce: (progn (open "foo.txt" :direction :probe :if-does-not-exist :create) (open "foo.txt" :direction :output :if-exists nil)) => must be nil 14:41:50 well, assuming you have permission to create foo.txt in *d-p-d*, but still. 14:42:13 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:42:25 darn it, that's not quite right. 14:42:38 (progn (close (open "foo.txt" :direction :probe :if-does-not-exist :create)) (open "foo.txt" :direction :output :if-exists nil)) 14:42:42 that's better. 14:42:52 and the rest of you, what IDE are you using for lisp? 14:43:00 suncica2222: emacs and slime 14:43:03 slime + ccl 14:43:16 ok, thanx 14:43:38 -!- akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-093-204.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:43:56 -!- foocraft_ is now known as foocraft 14:44:05 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81DCD4.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:47:55 bobbysmith007: what happened to that blog post? 14:48:56 rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-199-69.uio.no] has joined #lisp 14:49:33 when I declare global var with setf var...and later when I want to use that var, just use "var"? 14:49:54 leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has joined #lisp 14:50:06 <|3b|> SETF doesn't declare a global var 14:50:07 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@195.22.80.141] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 14:50:55 setq and setf declare global var 14:50:57 <|3b|> defvar or defparameter makes something similar to a 'global' variable 14:51:03 <|3b|> no they don't 14:51:17 and let does local 14:51:17 *|3b|* gives up on helping 14:51:25 <|3b|> minion: tell suncica2222 about pcl 14:51:25 pcl: An error was encountered in lookup: Couldn't write to #: Broken pipe. 14:51:36 suncica2222: setq and setf DO NOT DECLARE anything! 14:51:39 <|3b|> minion: thanks, that's helpful 14:51:39 np 14:51:48 suncica2222: fuck why are you coming here asking questions if you don't listen to answers? 14:52:35 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:52:49 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 14:53:44 dont swear 14:54:05 Don't dont. 14:54:26 suncica2222: quotes matter a lot in lisp! 14:55:47 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:55:51 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 14:56:17 suncice, samo polako : ) 14:56:56 minion didn't take that question well 14:56:57 (excuse my non-english) 14:57:15 haha 14:57:21 a vidis da se nerviraju 14:58:33 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 15:03:29 akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-093-204.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:04:10 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.133.122] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:04:49 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.133.122] has joined #lisp 15:04:50 loke [~elias@bb219-74-244-16.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 15:06:09 Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.245.203] has joined #lisp 15:07:46 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-197-79.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:08:40 -!- loke [~elias@bb219-74-244-16.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:10:14 -!- lnostdal-android [~yaaic@46.66.141.153.tmi.telenormobil.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:10:40 -!- sellout- [~Adium@64.134.41.5] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:11:19 francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has joined #lisp 15:11:52 hey, finally got my CL server running: http://109.130.13.129 15:13:17 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.245.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:13:34 -!- misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has quit [] 15:14:16 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-176-90.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Offline] 15:14:54 just need to make a it fixed ip now and broadcast CL to all the world, I'm through with php and rubbish 15:15:27 <_3b> francogrex: ... are you actually passing untrusted input to READ on a public server? 15:15:40 francogrex:more than a fixed ip, you need a fixed domain name. Have a look at http://dyndns.org 15:16:06 It doesn't multipky anything :-( 15:16:22 _3b: what the worst they can do, they're just using my local Cl application 15:16:33 francogrex: check it, I think it's crashed. 15:16:33 They could erase your hard drive. 15:16:34 <_3b> call any random CL function they want? 15:16:44 <_3b> (including the ones that call system functions) 15:16:56 wislin [~user@61.188.238.13] has joined #lisp 15:16:59 hmm ... they could? 15:16:59 CL is very hard to sandbox. 15:17:04 <_3b> clhs #. 15:17:05 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhf.htm 15:17:13 moxiemk1 [~moxiemk1@66-162-68-162.static.twtelecom.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:22 <_3b> and even if you turn that off, they can use up lots of ram 15:17:26 <_3b> clhs #( 15:17:27 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhc.htm 15:18:20 HG` [~HG@p579F75A1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:22 ok, needs fixing then... brb 15:18:31 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 15:18:44 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:18:46 pjb: it still lokks ok to me here 15:19:35 -!- francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:19:35 francogrex: what are you meant to see when you push the button? 15:20:11 Whell, I receive 0 bytes of answer when I click on multiply. 15:20:12 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.133.122] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:20:15 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-98-234-186-226.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:20:26 pjb: what about with bad input? 15:20:37 one and two. 15:20:49 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.133.122] has joined #lisp 15:20:51 *_3b* just gets the form back with good input, nothing back with attempts to break it nondestructively 15:21:31 yeah 15:21:53 which test package does this? (i.e., publishes a link to your application in #lisp and then collects all the different test inputs?) 15:22:32 lazyunit? 15:22:46 <_3b> looks like it prints the correct result and immediately redirects with good input 15:22:49 splittist, what is your favorite thing to code 15:23:28 Qworkescence: is Common Lisp the answer you're looking for? 15:24:41 -!- wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-98-234-186-226.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:24:59 splittist, no, I meant actual tasks 15:25:05 *Xach* got an email from someone asking for the code to his movie charts, and when they got the code (from github), the response was "Isn't there a java version :P" 15:25:12 some people! 15:25:15 <_3b> heh 15:25:20 Qworkescence: http://bc.tech.coop/blog/041027.html 15:25:23 <_3b> did you point them to abcl? 15:25:33 "The java version is still running." 15:25:37 I'm not in the methadone business. 15:25:44 haha 15:27:01 Qworkescence: I tend to code things that deal with text 15:27:07 ontheeasiestway [~ontheeasi@111.194.108.104] has joined #lisp 15:27:24 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has joined #lisp 15:29:00 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.40.248.120.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Quit: sleeping] 15:29:49 -!- akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-093-204.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:30:33 anon [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has joined #lisp 15:31:15 tfb [~tfb@92.40.248.120.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:31:16 -!- chp [~chp@2001:da8:a000:155:5eff:35ff:fe0c:c3ef] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:34:26 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.133.122] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:36:00 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 15:36:01 -!- tcr2 [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:36:01 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:36:23 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-mysmqoxqdazycslu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:36:23 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:36:25 -!- wislin [~user@61.188.238.13] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:36:27 tcr2 [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 15:37:49 cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 15:37:52 -!- suncica2222 [dfgfdgdfgd@217.26.215.127] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:38:03 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-149-15.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:38:48 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:40:46 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.167.209.61] has joined #lisp 15:40:49 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-131-92.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:46:34 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:48:48 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 15:49:13 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.232.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:49:25 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:49:47 spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-10-76.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:50:29 Joreji [~thomas@134.61.78.230] has joined #lisp 15:50:33 Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.245.203] has joined #lisp 15:55:04 limetree [~simon@c-23e8e155.1226-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:55:22 -!- tcr2 [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:55:26 pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:48 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 15:58:11 -!- alama [~alama@n138232.science.ru.nl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:58:31 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has joined #lisp 15:59:33 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 16:00:24 -!- spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-10-76.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 16:01:24 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:01:46 udzinari [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 16:02:05 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 16:03:07 greetings 16:03:25 kpreid [~kpreid@nat/google/x-hluvsswrmpqzkwpj] has joined #lisp 16:03:27 I'm looking for a high-level language to write a cross-platform application for an ARM router with 64MB RAM and a desktop PC. Is there a fitting CL implementation? 16:03:53 CCL, CLISP or ECL. 16:03:56 is anybody here expirienced in development for ARM? 16:04:55 ECL is buggy as hell 16:04:59 CLISP may fit. ECL is a bit buggy ATM. 16:05:15 LakatosI [557a1e03@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.122.30.3] has joined #lisp 16:05:50 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:06:02 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:06:14 -!- ec|detached is now known as elliottcable 16:06:25 oudeis [~oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 16:07:02 also I need some crypto features. I looked at Ironclad, but it lacks elliptical curves. 16:07:06 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:07:35 oudeis [~oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 16:07:39 -!- cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:08:34 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.63.209] has joined #lisp 16:09:30 lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@77.16.129.218.tmi.telenormobil.no] has joined #lisp 16:10:43 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-nsnnqsobxnzlkvju] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:11:17 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.245.203] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:12:48 What's a good way to get good at thinking lispy? 16:13:09 anon: I'm not sure but Ironclad looks quite modular. You can port an implementation from another language. 16:13:20 OliverUv [fuckident@69.70.212.98] has joined #lisp 16:13:28 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 16:13:43 I have been programming quite a lot in Lisp lately 16:13:45 anon: best to just use a solid, tested crypto library. 16:14:11 but I always seem to end up with relatively ineficient code 16:14:24 Are there any good learning resources? 16:14:37 Or is this just something you pick up over time? 16:14:40 pkhuong: is it openssl-based ? 16:14:55 ironclad? no, it's implemented in CL. 16:17:07 -!- rexim [~rexim@91.204.184.177] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:17:08 *|3b|* wonders if i should rewrite this example code to not use single-character package nicknames 16:17:21 to append an item to the end of a list is it correct to call (reverse (cons item (reverse lst))) ? 16:17:26 LakatosI: practice, read lots of code. 16:17:38 kiuma: "correct" in what sense? 16:17:44 Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #lisp 16:17:45 cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:17:49 LakatosI: to write efficient code, learn about algorithm complexity. 16:18:05 kiuma: the correct way to append an item to the end of a list is to rethink the choices you have made in life where that is what you want to do. 16:18:06 Xach, I wonder if it's efficient or there is a better way 16:18:07 LakatosI: also: http://cliki.net/Performance 16:18:08 LakatosI: use the profiler (sbcl's sprof with slime) to give feedback to your brain, and keep on coding 16:18:09 I know about those stuff 16:18:19 kiuma: that's not any better than appending with a singleton. 16:18:27 ineiros [~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 16:18:36 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-pnjhqktwbzugfnkl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:18:42 LakatosI: also, study a CL implementation to understand the complexity of the algorithms used to implement CL primtives. 16:18:44 Ooh, nice page 16:18:50 sellout- [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:19:04 -!- ontheeasiestway [~ontheeasi@111.194.108.104] has left #lisp 16:19:10 pjb: I'll do that 16:19:20 pkhuong: okay, but Ironclad lacks a EC. Is it best to use an external C library? 16:19:42 pkhuong, got it 16:20:02 what? me? 16:20:02 anon: as I said, it's best to use something solid and tested (e.g. openssl) 16:20:06 oh 16:20:08 wrong EC. 16:20:35 pkhuong: thanks 16:20:43 anon: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-plus-ssl/ 16:21:04 -!- rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-199-69.uio.no] has quit [Quit: Client exciting.] 16:22:08 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@nat/google/x-hluvsswrmpqzkwpj] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:22:14 kpreid_ [~kpreid@nat/google/x-wfctjqbuiewlpmdw] has joined #lisp 16:24:04 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:24:14 <|3b|> hmm, guess it isn't just the examples using single character nicknames 16:24:41 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.40.248.120.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:26:12 *|3b|* supposes adding a dependency on package-local-nicknames wouldn't be nice since it only runs on sbcl so far 16:26:31 -!- workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:26:41 -!- LakatosI [557a1e03@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.122.30.3] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:30:12 -!- hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp_] 16:30:25 tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:39 felideon [~felideon@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:45 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-131-92.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:31:47 jikanter [~Adium@h-74-1-220-2.miatflad.static.covad.net] has joined #lisp 16:32:53 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:33:35 -!- Guthur [c743cb8d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.141] has quit [Disconnected by services] 16:33:43 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 16:33:52 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:34:34 -!- tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:34:41 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 16:39:08 pkhuong: wiki says that CCL targeted at ARMv6. Are other archs supported? I am especially interested in ARM-Linux on OMAP ARM Cortex-A8 (ARMv7) 16:39:39 ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 16:40:09 anon: it shouldn't be too hard to add support for ARMv7 to a compiler that already supports ppc, x86, x86_64 and ARMv6. 16:40:09 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-0-29.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 16:40:28 CCL development is commercially supported; if no other customer is currently looking for ARMv7, you can always sponsor that in 16:40:29 T_T 16:41:30 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:41:39 <|3b|> 1.6 release notes say arm6 'and later', and suggest it is run on cortex a8 16:42:27 does anyone have harag's email address? 16:42:27 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-0-29.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has left #lisp 16:42:46 |3b|: iiuc, arm is mostly forward compatible. 16:42:56 or backward, I guess. 16:43:05 hm, AFAIK ARM archs is very different and not compactable to say "arm6 and later" 16:43:11 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:43:27 for example Cortex-M3 supports only ARMv7 Thumb2 instructions 16:43:31 *|3b|* doesn't know either way, just knows what it says on the docs :p 16:43:34 and nothing else 16:43:46 ontheeasiestway [~ontheeasi@111.194.108.104] has joined #lisp 16:43:50 you can always ask them. 16:43:51 anon: i thought later arm instructions are supersets 16:44:03 oGMo: some encodings aren't supported everywhere. 16:44:10 pkhuong: ah 16:44:17 anon: I'd worry about FP support. 16:44:38 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-109-16.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:59 Cortex-M3 throws an exception if you try to execute standard ARMv7 instruction 16:47:19 -!- lanthan [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:47:35 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.244.150] has joined #lisp 16:47:39 -!- nixfreak [~nixfreak@mn-10k-dhcp1-3174.dsl.hickorytech.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 16:49:34 pkhuong: cortex processors has dsp cores, many of it has FP support 16:50:27 spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-10-76.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:50:32 I meant on the arm core itself, if CCL likes to use hardware FP (and if it's the right one) 16:50:45 -!- spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-10-76.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 16:53:19 _joey [~joey@120.19.45.144] has joined #lisp 16:54:50 Joreji_ [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:56:40 enthymeme [~kraken@96.31.242.194] has joined #lisp 16:57:00 -!- elliottcable is now known as ec|detached 16:58:02 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:58:08 pnq [~nick@ACA229F2.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 16:58:33 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 16:59:06 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:01:15 Soulman1 [~knute@250.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 17:03:22 is lispbuilder a recommended way to create stand-alone windows lisp apps? 17:04:16 -!- timjstewart1 [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:05:15 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-131-92.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:05:31 no 17:05:56 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 17:06:21 rme [~rme@50.43.150.228] has joined #lisp 17:06:47 (but not a discommended) 17:08:31 what are the recommended ways? (if any) 17:09:23 ezakimak: If I was going to make a GUI windows application in CL, I would spend money on LispWorks and use CAPI. 17:09:28 i don't have expereince with windows, but i would lispworks to be nice 17:09:38 can it use commonqt? 17:09:46 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-45.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:09:48 If I wanted to spend $0, I would probably use SBCL on Linux and make it a website instead. 17:09:49 "expect" 17:10:09 ezakimak: can what use commonqt? 17:10:13 lispworks 17:10:27 why would you want to use commonqt on lispworks? 17:10:33 it has CAPI 17:10:40 what's CAPI? 17:10:56 nm. reading 17:11:04 ezakimak: a library for lispworks used to write successful commercial windows CL programs. 17:11:15 minion: CAPI? 17:11:15 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``CAPI''. 17:11:25 minion: bad minion 17:11:25 you speak nonsense 17:11:31 minion: search again >:O 17:11:32 does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you? 17:11:50 minion, you fail the turing test. we're on to you. 17:11:50 you: what's up? 17:13:42 wow. that's pricey. 17:14:03 varjag [~eugene@162.163.9.46.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:14:59 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-45.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:15:36 so is the question regarding GUI or exe? 17:16:10 save-lisp-and-die for SBCL works well enough for making exe file 17:16:56 buildapp even works on windows 17:17:00 which reminds me... Xach is buildapp linux only 17:17:13 lol, you knew what I was going to ask before I asked it 17:17:15 the kitten of death is annoying though. 17:17:22 -!- udzinari [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit:     ] 17:18:04 _6502_ [58959a57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.149.154.87] has joined #lisp 17:18:21 I like cats... 17:18:42 <_6502_> how do I find the longest string from a list of strings? 17:18:50 quicklisp just failed attempting to install commonqt, who would I talk to about debugging that? 17:19:06 _6502_: you write a function. 17:19:28 _6502_, a simple recursion should suffice 17:19:51 or loop 17:20:05 <_6502_> pkhuong: heh... I was wondering if the huge CL library has anything for this kind of problem... 17:20:17 fgump [~fgump__@188.74.82.177] has joined #lisp 17:20:27 <_6502_> pkhuong: in python this is max(L, key=len) 17:20:33 -!- ontheeasiestway [~ontheeasi@111.194.108.104] has left #lisp 17:20:38 q: how complex is sbcl's optimizer? can it convert simple recursion functions over lists into loops? 17:20:59 (reduce (lambda (x y) (if (< (length x) (length y)) y x)) '("a" "abcd" "ab")) --> "abcd" 17:21:03 tail recursions, yes 17:21:09 _6502_: the lisp library has everything. 17:21:37 <_6502_> pjb: you are evaluating the length of the winner many times... 17:21:47 _6502_: length is O(1). 17:22:20 <_6502_> pjb: ok... how do i find the longest list in a list of lists ? 17:22:31 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:22:32 i would just use (car (sort (copy-list list-of-strings) #'> :key #'length)) 17:22:35 _6502_, that same function should do it 17:22:37 <_6502_> pjb: the python function is the same :-) 17:22:41 What's the best library for using posix? 17:22:46 _6502_: the lisp function too. 17:22:55 reb: osicat, iolib? 17:22:57 And the lisp expression works for vectors too. 17:22:58 <_6502_> ezakimak: but then length is not O(1) any more 17:23:03 Python doesn't even have list! 17:23:11 _6502_: go away. 17:23:28 stassats: I'd like to use timer_create. 17:23:42 oudeis [~oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 17:23:54 ... so I can either add it to sb-posix, or add it to some other Posix library via CFFI. 17:24:01 _6502_: how do you do O(1) length on a linked list? 17:24:37 Python doesn't even have linked lists, so it cannot even consider having O(1) lengths on linked lists! 17:25:10 pjb, how does python implement list then? 17:25:19 stassats: Why do you have to copy the list of strings? 17:25:27 ezakimak: as vectors. 17:25:32 clhs sort 17:25:33 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sort_.htm 17:25:40 ezakimak: most languages use vectors to implement what they call "list". 17:25:43 also: (cl-utilities:extremum '("foo" "doop" "a") #'> :key #'length) 17:25:51 Oh, it's destructive. Thanks 17:26:22 hrm. so python list operations must be expensive then. 17:26:28 Indeed. 17:26:40 That can be amortized, but still... 17:27:06 <_6502_> extremum is interesting 17:27:26 stassats: Thanks ... looks like no one has wrapped all of Posix for CL. 17:27:42 what about linux os api? 17:27:42 bummers! 17:28:06 (or is that part of posix?) 17:28:06 _6502_: it's interesting only if you need the rest of cl-utilities. Otherwise you'll be loading a bunch of irrelevant code to do just (reduce (lambda (x y) (if (< (length x) (length y)) y x)) '("a" "abcd" "ab")). 17:28:22 in some places 17:29:21 what about linux io (man io(3) )? 17:29:48 that a matter for writing a C module? 17:29:52 <_6502_> pjb: in the real code that this problem appeared I am looking to what is the item for which the sum of (* price quantity) of all pending orders is maximum 17:30:12 Which is again O(1). 17:30:13 <_6502_> that this problem = in which this problem 17:30:44 <_6502_> pjb: everything is O(1), given that n cannot go to infinite in a finite universe 17:30:53 _6502_, does your order object not store the result of the sum already? 17:31:08 Given that you have a finite number of multiplicands, and a single multiplication to do! 17:31:11 <_6502_> ezakimak: no 17:31:15 _6502_, who says the universe is finite? 17:31:17 It doesn't matter. 17:31:28 ezakimak: physicists. 17:31:56 oh please, stay on topic 17:32:18 who said that the topic is finite? 17:32:19 -!- fgump [~fgump__@188.74.82.177] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:32:43 buh-da-bah! 17:32:54 incf stassats 17:34:21 even with an infinite topic, you can go off of the topic. 17:34:41 ooh. metatopics. i'd say that's on topic--it's macro territory! 17:34:55 more clos, I'd say 17:35:33 well, back to lisp--anyone know who I should talk to about commonqt failing to compile? 17:36:10 it failed in cffi-features package 17:36:28 you can talk to me 17:36:35 want the backtrace? 17:36:49 wouldn't hurt 17:37:52 http://paste.lisp.org/display/122218 17:38:06 that's from simply trying (ql:quickload 'qt) 17:38:32 it requires some foreign libraries 17:38:49 ok, how do I get the list of dependencies? 17:39:11 wait, i'll find a link to the guide on how to install it on windows 17:39:17 this is on linux 17:39:32 (if it makes a difference) 17:39:34 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:39:35 what distribution? 17:39:38 gentoo 17:39:38 (it does) 17:40:02 ezakimak: you need qmake, smoke, qt dev libraries, and more. 17:40:13 quicklisp does not install those tools and libraries for you. 17:40:14 well, i don't know how the package is called on gentoo, but should something like smokeqt or 17:40:40 smoke-qt-core, or kdebindings 17:41:11 I installed libsmokeqt4-dev, qt4-qmake, libqt4-dev in debian, and it loaded fine. 17:41:16 installing smoke 17:41:23 already have qmake 17:41:48 which kdebindings? 17:42:08 well, on some distributions smoke is (or was) included in kdebindings package 17:42:13 portage shows c# perl and ruby 17:42:18 oh, okay. 17:45:13 <_6502_> here we go... http://paste.lisp.org/+2MAZ 17:45:18 <_6502_> is it ugly? 17:45:21 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:45:49 <_6502_> defmacro/$ is like defmacro, but every symbol that starts with '$' is a gensym 17:45:52 dollars are ugly 17:45:59 installing smoke resolved it. thanks. 17:46:02 Why is that a macro? 17:46:02 ASau [~user@95-24-202-195.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 17:46:05 Ditto. 17:46:06 _6502_: this is idiotic, you don't need a macro for that. 17:46:17 *Xach* enjoys a rare moment of consistent message 17:46:33 <_6502_> hmmm 17:46:38 <_6502_> true 17:46:46 _6502_: you ask a question, we present several functions to answer it, and you go and write a macro? What's wrong with yo??? 17:46:49 k.i.s.s. :) 17:47:24 the plus side is, you can just call the macro to get your function def back :) 17:48:46 <_6502_> http://paste.lisp.org/+2MAZ/1 17:49:17 _6502_: your function doesn't work on vectors. My reduce expression did... 17:49:58 <_6502_> that's another annoying point... how can i get first and rest of a sequence? 17:50:09 Use reduce. 17:50:10 -!- Liera [~Liera@123.20.50.129] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:50:55 <_6502_> pjb: that was my first thought... but it's not possible IMO.... the reason is that reduce works on objects, can't save the computation on current winner 17:51:14 And the computation on current winner is not an object perhaps? 17:51:26 And what about closures? 17:52:09 stis [~stis@host-90-235-9-224.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 17:52:09 <_6502_> pjb: i could precompute for example a list of (cons (funcall key x) x) but that 17:52:14 _6502_: and why are you reimplementing cl-utilities:extremum? 17:52:20 <_6502_> pjb: is far from optimal 17:53:46 <_6502_> pjb: because 1) i didn't know it existed, 2) probably is not going to work out of the box unless I disable SSL support :-) 17:54:10 -!- Areil [~user@123.20.50.129] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:54:11 (let (max win) (map nil (lambda (item) (let ((key (funcall key item))) (when (or (null max) (funcall lessp max key)) (setf max key win item)))) seq) win) 17:55:30 <_6502_> map nil is nice 17:55:34 <_6502_> almost as nice as dolist 17:55:39 bsod1 [~sinan@188.58.181.132] has joined #lisp 17:55:44 map works on sequences. 17:55:54 stassats, I tried to run the t14.lisp on the commonqt page, but I get qt:qstring is undefined 17:57:02 <_6502_> and your code doesn't work if NIL are valid elements in the sequence... 17:57:14 ezakimak: try running t14 from commmonqt/tutorial/t14.lisp 17:57:26 _6502_: yes, you have to avoid having null keys. 17:57:34 But otherwise you're again wrong. 17:57:42 the repository it links isn't up to date 17:57:43 I just copied the t14.lisp to an empty dir. 17:57:45 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has left #lisp 17:57:56 Nigr0 [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/nigr0] has joined #lisp 17:58:31 actually, you can even load it with asdf 17:58:44 (asdf:load-system :qt-tutorial) 17:59:02 and then (qt-tutorial-14:main) 17:59:32 -!- leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 17:59:37 that worked 17:59:42 (I used ql though) 17:59:44 -!- iori [~iori@110-133-45-54.rev.home.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:59:44 <_6502_> pjb: what would be a good solution for the NIL problem ? using gensym ? 18:00:11 there are so many commonqt repositories, it's confusing 18:00:39 _6502_: how often does key functions return NIL and lessp functions compare nil with something else? 18:01:01 Otherwise, you can use a uniquely generated object, or a flag to indicate the first iteration. 18:01:13 um, how do I get back to the repl? (I ran the qt-tutorial-14:main then closed the window) 18:01:32 closing it should be enough 18:02:04 i think it's confused from my other attempts to run it 18:02:16 I got a warning: qcoreapplication is already instantiated 18:02:19 -!- moxiemk1 [~moxiemk1@66-162-68-162.static.twtelecom.net] has left #lisp 18:02:21 that's ok 18:02:38 should I signal sbcl? 18:02:50 do what? 18:02:55 to get it to break 18:03:06 -!- Nigr0 [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/nigr0] has left #lisp 18:03:07 what happens after you close the window? 18:03:26 it's gone, but the repl has not returned 18:03:35 I'm assuming it's stuck in the qt event loop or something 18:03:56 oh, indeed, you should've used Quit button 18:04:11 so window title X button is a no-no. gotcha. 18:04:12 well then, yes, use C-c C-c and abort restart 18:04:24 C-c C-c hasn't worked 18:05:09 well, it may have crashed... 18:05:10 is there a safe signal to send to sbcl that will simply get me back to repl? 18:05:15 look in *inferior-lisp* 18:05:26 C-c C-c sends this signal 18:05:40 sigusr1 wasn't it =P 18:05:51 (it's sigint) 18:06:15 -!- cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:06:33 <_6502_> pjb: http://paste.lisp.org/+2MAZ/2 18:07:26 Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.18.135] has joined #lisp 18:07:32 <_6502_> dinner time for me... l8r 18:07:39 -!- _6502_ [58959a57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.149.154.87] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:07:58 Hi all! 18:09:50 -!- jikanter [~Adium@h-74-1-220-2.miatflad.static.covad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:10:14 tritchey [~tritchey@205.233.9.181] has joined #lisp 18:13:10 -!- nikodemus_ [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:14:58 suncica2222 [dfgfdgdfgd@P1-125.internet.krstarica.com] has joined #lisp 18:16:07 Error: attempt to call `<' which is an undefined function. 18:16:16 alama [~alama@n138232.science.ru.nl] has joined #lisp 18:16:22 how to replace this < 18:16:23 ? 18:16:27 In what? 18:16:34 (sort items #'< :key #'car))) 18:16:36 here 18:16:42 < 18:16:43 Do you mean #'< 18:16:44 ? 18:17:03 ...wait, that's an HTML entity, what exactly are you doing? 18:17:32 probably copy pasting from a doubly-escaped page.webpage. 18:17:40 yes 18:17:50 Ill try < 18:18:04 thats what I tought too 18:20:57 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:21:39 suncica2222: (defun < (a b) (< a b)) ; but drop the semi-colon which introduces a comment. 18:21:47 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: "Object-oriented design" is an oxymoron] 18:22:56 -!- cbp [~Cesar@189.139.219.96] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:23:03 or (set-syntax-from-char #\; #\a) 18:24:49 Yes. 18:26:13 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:28:43 is this ok lisp syntax? 18:28:45 (sort items #'<; :key #'car) 18:28:52 no 18:29:04 how shoul that be? 18:29:10 (sort items #'< :key #'car) 18:29:10 why'd you put a semicolon? 18:29:12 Remove the semicolon. It comments out the rest of the line. 18:29:25 thanx 18:29:37 and that should be "thanks" 18:29:48 "drop the semicolon" means remove it, erase it, don't use it! 18:31:35 francogrex [~user@109.130.219.47] has joined #lisp 18:34:37 -!- zbigniew [~zb@ipv6.3e8.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:35:09 -!- xristos [~x@2001:4968:200:0:20c:29ff:fe47:788] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:35:18 suncica2222: what is your interest in the boxes game? 18:35:31 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:36:19 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:37:15 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 18:39:30 daniel___ [~daniel@p5B326AEA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:49 prxq_ [~mommer@mnhm-590c35c1.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:55 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.219.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:41:00 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75eabc.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:41:41 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:42:02 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 18:42:59 zbigniew [~zb@ipv6.3e8.org] has joined #lisp 18:43:01 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 18:43:36 francogrex [~user@109.130.219.47] has joined #lisp 18:43:59 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.219.47] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:44:37 francogrex [~user@109.130.219.47] has joined #lisp 18:45:15 kai___ [~kai@e179003124.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:45:22 -!- kai___ is now known as wetnosed 18:45:55 -!- HG` [~HG@p579F75A1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:48:59 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.167.209.61] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:51:48 Transformer [~Transform@ool-4a59e397.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:00 xristos [~x@2001:4968:200:0:20c:29ff:fe47:788] has joined #lisp 18:52:39 -!- stis [~stis@host-90-235-9-224.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:52:42 stis_ [~stis@host-90-235-9-224.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 18:53:36 kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.237.227] has joined #lisp 18:53:38 bugQ [~bug@c-67-186-255-54.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:19 -!- Transformer [~Transform@ool-4a59e397.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:56:50 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:57:36 -!- kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.237.227] has left #lisp 18:57:51 Night-hacks [~nullpoint@95.38.52.69] has joined #lisp 18:58:39 -!- bugQ [~bug@c-67-186-255-54.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:59:20 rdd [~user@c83-250-52-16.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:00:54 -!- skeptical_p [~rononovsk@bzq-79-182-185-187.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:03:43 -!- milkpost is now known as a1f 19:03:48 mathrick: i opened https://github.com/akovalenko/sbcl-win32-threads/issues/3 19:04:11 oooo 19:05:05 oh that wasn't what i thought it would be ... 19:05:29 cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 19:06:50 What did you think it would be? 19:07:29 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 19:08:05 bug- [~bug@c-67-186-255-54.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:23 -!- Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:09:25 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:09:36 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@75.95.236.229] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:10:06 did you guys get any of that? horrible connection 19:10:18 -!- luke__ [~luke@2.103.110.175] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:10:28 bug-: no, we live in well connected countries. 19:10:37 (at least in cities). 19:10:38 luke__ [~luke@2.103.109.213] has joined #lisp 19:10:44 bug-: i didn't see anything. 19:10:54 yeah ok. 1 sec. 19:11:11 -!- bug- is now known as bugQ 19:12:01 -!- prxq_ is now known as prxq 19:12:34 -!- alama [~alama@n138232.science.ru.nl] has quit [Quit: alama] 19:12:54 ok, so I have these three summer projects 19:12:54 I'm "auditing" a class (http://www.eng.utah.edu/~cs5510/) that uses Racket 19:12:54 building synthesizers with Lush's DSPs 19:12:56 (also using Lush for a numerical analysis class) 19:12:58 and sometime in the queue I have a web app idea 19:13:00 for which I have heard CL is choice 19:13:01 but why should I need three lisps? this is getting worse than linux 19:13:23 The horror of diversity. 19:13:29 You can do everything with Common Lisp. 19:13:51 bugQ: you don't *need* three lisps. You happen to be using three. I'm not sure what you want us to tell you though. 19:14:31 maybe the racket or lush people will be better able to understand your state of mind. 19:14:33 You could even trivially use Common Lisp to generate Racket and Lush code... 19:14:48 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c35c1.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:15:32 well ok, take lush in particular 19:15:53 _6502_ [5e24fd14@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.253.20] has joined #lisp 19:16:00 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:16:09 they claim that the tight integration with C is superior for high-speed numerical procedures 19:16:29 I don't see the point, CL is faster than C for numerical procedures. 19:16:30 you can do that with common lisp, too. See ECL. 19:16:31 therefore they have nice matrix handling, etc. 19:16:40 bugQ: http://cliki.net/Performance 19:16:44 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:16:59 hi all 19:17:15 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:17:23 bugQ: might have been a lot more of an issue back when Lush was created. Now, I suppose you are using lush in that class because it's evolved into a useful framework and your professor knows it well. 19:17:49 pkhuong: makes sense. 19:17:49 -!- Night-hacks [~nullpoint@95.38.52.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:17:50 You could just as well have wound up using Matlab, Fortran or C. 19:17:58 and yes (format t "whatever") still does the same 19:18:00 if all you need is blas or lapack, it doesn't matter much performance-wise which language you use as long as you have a sane interface to it 19:18:18 the class actually calls for matlab but since I'm not bound by that monstrosity... 19:18:25 pkhuong, you should have used R 19:18:32 Or just CL. 19:18:54 nikodemus: tell that to the numpy people ;) Said sane interface includes providing their own arrays. 19:18:57 whatever 19:19:08 heh 19:19:36 we should have sb-numerics 19:19:43 heh what? 19:19:54 we should have a use case :p 19:19:58 R is better 19:20:32 are there some "artificial life" pioneer creations attempts in lisp? 19:20:39 no 19:20:45 can I interface with an atmega in R? 19:20:47 we should have a microbenchmark suite 19:21:04 i remember someone started writing a framework last year, but got distracted 19:21:12 bugQ, yes 19:21:28 suncica2222: What do you mean? I know Hashlife's original implementation was in Lisp, though. 19:21:31 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 19:21:49 bugQ: depends on the interface. I don't see why not. You can ask in the R channel. 19:22:13 hm, i'll check it out. 19:22:20 any idea how often boinkmarks update these days? 19:22:33 nikodemus: yeah. I need to write one for C (: 19:23:13 Perhaps I should write the encyclopedia of all the wrong reasons for joining conp.lang.lisp 19:23:22 maybe you can solve the embedding-sbcl-in-c problem and finish sb-bench instead? :P 19:23:27 rotfl 19:23:41 even if you can proof CL is fast, some people will probably still not want to use it, considering they are looking for excuses not to 19:23:44 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 19:23:46 -!- Xach has set mode +b *!*john@*.202.34.95.customer.cdi.no 19:23:51 -!- Younder [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has been kicked from #lisp by Xach (Go away again.) 19:24:01 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 19:24:07 Guthur: yes, but usually we won't provide those excuses here. 19:24:28 nikodemus: refactor all accesses to go through SAPs, and we'll talk ;) 19:24:52 -!- Joreji [~thomas@134.61.78.230] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:24:54 what was that for xach? younder was useful 19:24:54 cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 19:25:02 bugQ: I highly doubt that. 19:25:31 bugQ: Younder's pattern is to inject nearly random commentary into every active conversation, and into thin air. It's a multi-year project that has grown very stale. 19:25:38 did i tell you about my eventual plan to implement sb-ffi as type-unsafe (ffi-style) ffi layer, and then re-implement a closified sb-alien on top of it? 19:25:53 no, but good stuff! 19:26:07 i just need to discover how to fork myself 19:26:11 eventual? what could be more important? 19:26:54 did I tell you about my branch that allocated large unboxed objects with malloc? :) 19:27:04 i think i saw it 19:27:25 you know, i think we need to hold a virtual sbcl conference 19:27:39 SBCL 11.5! 19:27:40 Jasko [~tjasko@75.95.236.229] has joined #lisp 19:27:58 Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:28:58 why 11.5 19:29:18 is that for May 2011 19:29:24 -!- bugQ [~bug@c-67-186-255-54.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:29:36 They want to make believe they're not a beta anymore :-) 19:29:38 SBCL 10 was sbcl's 10th anniversary workshop 19:29:51 They realized they could never catch clisp 2.49, so they skip ahead. 19:29:53 SBCL is now about 11.5 years old 19:30:29 current version is 1.0.48.24 19:31:21 *stassats* hopes to see 1.1 before 2020 19:31:41 Night-hacks [~nullpoint@95.38.52.69] has joined #lisp 19:31:45 i think we can throw out 1.1 to celebrate the move to git 19:32:06 1.2 for windows ;) 19:32:13 that's 2.0 :) 19:32:34 -!- Night-hacks [~nullpoint@95.38.52.69] has quit [Client Quit] 19:32:34 so, has it moved or not? i'm slightly out of touch on that matter 19:32:45 has what moved? 19:32:50 sbcl to git 19:32:58 Night-hacks [~nullpoint@95.38.52.69] has joined #lisp 19:33:02 this should be the last month in cvs 19:33:12 ok 19:33:21 *stassats* crosses fingers 19:34:22 when we hit freeze i'll put up a git tree on sourceforge, and we can test it as well. after freeze is over i'll reset it to 1.0.49 and commit the git workflow patch on top of it 19:34:51 if worst comes to worst and there are issues with the workflow patch, we can /still/ move to git, and just keep the current workflow 19:36:14 nikodemus: I need to Posix timer_create/timer_settime functionality. Is this the sort of thing that might get rolled into to sb-posix, once I have it working? 19:36:15 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:36:21 s/to/some 19:39:28 his 19:39:34 hi* ! 19:39:34 reb: what do you need it for? 19:40:13 I want to run some code in a thread, but abort it after X cpu seconds. 19:40:54 I was thinking I'd create a Posix timer with the RT signal directed to the thread, 19:41:35 when i define (defmethod test ()) without any defgenerics of it, it say's => Implicitly creating new generic function test 19:41:50 Posix call timer_create lets me deliver a signal to a specific thread. 19:41:51 reb: asynchronous unwinds are fundamentally unsafe, unless your entire codebase is asynch unwind safe 19:42:18 but sbcl has most of the things you need already, really 19:42:40 What is the right SBCL way to implement this? 19:42:46 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 19:43:07 i thought it must throw an exception. 19:43:08 Night-hacks: that is to be expected. 19:43:15 Night-hacks: it does not throw an exception. 19:43:19 see timer stuff in sb-ext, and sb-sprof (which has runtime timers) 19:43:30 Night-hacks: you have the right to a generic function. if you do not have a generic function, one will be provided for you. 19:43:59 reb: and familiarize yourself with without-interrupts, with-local-interrupts, allow-with-interrupts, and with-interrupts 19:44:16 When I looked at the code they appear to signal after X elapsed time, not X CPU time. 19:44:18 Ok 19:45:50 reb: timer stuff could easily be extended to support user-runtime and user+system runtime 19:46:10 it's built on top of setitimer, so the pieces are all there 19:46:56 Doesn't setitimer track total job user/system time, not per thread time? 19:47:28 m7d [~lriley@208.73.14.218] has joined #lisp 19:47:34 sort of 19:47:58 if you want per thread run time, then you need a different substrate, yes 19:48:37 but i think the timer framework in timer.lisp is probably the best place to start for the lisp interface 19:48:40 having a bit of trouble loading quicklisp into corman lisp...anyone know if quicklisp works in corman lisp? 19:49:30 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:49:35 m7d: quicklisp does not work in corman lisp. 19:50:02 Hey Xach, thanks for the quick response. bummer, ok 19:50:04 Regarding async unwinds ... if the code being unwound uses no locks and is just simple CPU-bound computation, no I/O, etc. are there still minefields? 19:50:25 reb: that should be safe 19:50:41 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 19:50:54 m7d: you are the first person to ask about it as a corman user 19:51:41 Xach: ha, funny, not surprised - my main lisp env is clozure and sbcl, but i need to knock out a little windows app 19:52:04 Xach: i am not tied to corman though, only just downloaded it 19:52:34 My tentative plan is that a thread gets a signal after X elapsed CPU seconds, perhaps checks accumulated GC time, then throws if its CPU limit has been reached. 19:52:52 nikodemus: boinkmarks should still be running once a day 19:52:54 are they not? 19:53:39 m7d: i can't even load asdf.lisp in corman 19:53:44 Anyway, regarding timer_create ... if I get an SBCL wrapper working, is that something that can go in sb-posix? I have to decide whether to use sb-alien or cffi. 19:54:36 Xach: yeah, it looks like a neat little env, but i am having trouble with seeing how to get some libs i'd need - i may just go with clozure on windows (wish I had a lispworks license!) 19:54:49 bugQ [~bug@c-67-186-255-54.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:53 -!- morphling [~stefan@77.0.33.125] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:55:07 nikodemus: and thanks for all the info! 19:55:15 reb: hm. sb-posix is probably fine, but since it uses signals it'd rather have an interface in the core -- which means sb-unix 19:55:43 ok 19:55:48 m7d: my impression is that very few libraries are tested with corman and if there is a bug in corman, it is not under active, timely development. 19:56:01 antifuchs: dunno. maybe i just missed the daily window with my morning's commits :) 19:56:38 reb: though since it has a non-signal interface as well, that _does_ fit nicely into sb-posix 19:56:44 Xach: yeah, i am noticing that in their user forums right now, too bad 19:56:49 possibly 19:56:58 nikodemus: benchmarks run at 2am or so 19:57:08 timezone? 19:57:21 central european (whichever is current) 19:57:31 but if you commit something while benchmarks are running & the git gateway picks them up in the meantime 19:57:35 ok, so they just haven't run yet :) 19:57:43 sounds likely (: 19:58:21 so Object "properties" are called Slot's in CLisp ? 19:58:42 Night-hacks: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_s.htm#slot 19:59:02 clisp is an implementation. cl is the abbreviation for the language 19:59:35 cl* . 20:00:07 gggaaah. cl-bench doesn't have even a _single_ test with call-next-methods 20:00:20 foiled by missing benchmarks, again 20:00:40 being called explicitly? 20:00:53 wonder why it's called Slot ! 20:01:03 nikodemus: Thanks! 20:02:06 how else? unless you call-next-method or have a non-standard method combination you only get most specific around or primary + before and after methods 20:02:06 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA229F2.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:02:13 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 20:02:45 oh. wait. i'm blind 20:02:56 it does have a few after all 20:03:26 but only the boring no-arguments case 20:04:17 whatever modifications you did, make sure you don't break its infinite extent :-) 20:04:43 Davsebamse [~davse@gate.ipvision.dk] has joined #lisp 20:04:53 Night-hacks: Good question. 20:05:14 -!- bugQ [~bug@c-67-186-255-54.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:05:31 I thought there are historic reasons but it was "instance variable" in Flavors. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flavors_(programming_language) 20:05:53 nikodemus: I wrote a program where I use call-next-method basically as if the result of call/cc 20:05:58 no worries. mostly i just optimized the required correctness-checking for the arguments in safe code for the common cases 20:06:18 i also added a dx declaration for the rest list, but that's safe too 20:07:16 Slots are called, well, slots, in Python, aren't they? 20:07:23 The language, I mean. 20:07:55 what we call properties i.e. in property lists aren't exactly like slots too 20:08:10 naryl: so they had their own terminology. 20:08:32 -!- Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.18.135] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:08:42 Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.18.135] has joined #lisp 20:09:05 virtually every language uses a slightly different object terminology 20:09:47 but it's really different. 20:09:59 *shrug* 20:10:01 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:10:45 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 20:10:51 bugQ [~bug@c-67-186-255-54.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:51 it's not like C#'s and javascript's properties are anything like each other -- so the apparent similarity of termininology is mostly illusionary 20:11:24 "slots" is a lower-level view; "properties" is a modeling view 20:11:54 also "properties" was already taken in Lisp anyway 20:13:21 -!- wivlaro [~bill@craftsmanltd.co.uk] has left #lisp 20:14:44 <_6502_> bike: slots in python is available as a special and rarely used space-saving object construction (__slots__). What CL calls slots in objects in Python are called Attributes (e.g. getattr, setattr)... 20:15:06 I see. 20:15:14 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 20:15:47 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has left #lisp 20:15:48 _6502_: aren't python's attributes essentially a per-object hashtable? 20:16:00 or was that slots and i got it reversed? 20:16:45 <_6502_> nikodemus: in python an object content is managed in an hash table (dictionary)... also attributes can be added/removed from objects at runtime (this is not considered a good practice, however) 20:16:49 -!- Soulman1 [~knute@250.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:17:18 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c711b3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:28 <_6502_> nikodemus: every object has a __dict__ attribute... and obj.attr is exactly the same as obj.__dict__["attr"] 20:17:29 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:18:07 ...so neither is like cl's slots? :) though to be fair, it's not like struct slots and clos slots are very similar either when you get down to it... 20:18:32 <_6502_> not exactly the same... but the same for what in CL are the slots 20:19:17 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 20:19:49 hehe if only I was a little further along with AMOP I might have been able to contribute to this convo, shame 20:19:49 <_6502_> nokodemus: obj.xx also looks in the class object and in the whole inheritance tree, obj.__dict__ only contains instance data 20:19:56 nikodemus: not? 20:20:16 -!- cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:20:38 struct slots are directly in the object. standard clos slots are in the instance vector, and non-standard ones can be anywhere 20:20:48 hm an indirection more I guess 20:21:16 not that the standard _requires_ that for structs, though 20:22:12 but that's afaik the common implementation practise, and makes sense from efficiency pov 20:23:07 -!- Davsebamse [~davse@gate.ipvision.dk] has quit [Quit: Davsebamse] 20:25:56 -!- m7d [~lriley@208.73.14.218] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:26:05 m7d [~lriley@pool-71-102-212-31.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:30 -!- m7d [~lriley@pool-71-102-212-31.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:26:44 _6502_: So obj.__dict__["__dict__"]["__dict__"] is valid? 20:26:47 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-149-15.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:59 <_6502_> naryl: there are "special" attributes in instances, for example __dict__ (the dictionary that contains all "standard" attributes) and __class__ (the class of the instance) 20:30:16 similar to JS, where objects have a dynamic hash table for properties, and special properties like prototype, etc 20:30:22 <_6502_> naryl: also if an class is declared with __slots__ = ['x', 'y', 'z'] then the instance will not have a __dict__ at all, and only valid attributes will be x, y and z. This is allowed as a space-saving option 20:32:07 cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:22 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-166-48.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:33:22 -!- y3llow [~y3llow@111-240-166-48.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:33:33 -!- Night-hacks [~nullpoint@95.38.52.69] has left #lisp 20:33:44 -!- dcorking [~dcorking@82.152.210.11] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:33:46 <_6502_> naryl: but access to attriubute in instances of classes defined with __slots__ is slower... because attributes are properties (i.e. getter/setter functions) that ill be looked up in the class then called 20:35:05 y3llow [~y3llow@111-240-168-61.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:14 s0ber [~s0ber@111.240.168.61] has joined #lisp 20:35:19 -!- bugQ [~bug@c-67-186-255-54.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:35:40 macrobat_ [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.A328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 20:36:10 ok now I have working code in Allegro, how do I export program in compiled file or executable script in lisp? 20:37:35 -!- stis_ [~stis@host-90-235-9-224.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:38:26 -!- cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:38:53 minion: creating executeables? 20:38:54 watch out, you'll make krystof angry 20:39:00 minion: creating executables? 20:39:00 creating executables: Newcomers to Lisp often ask how to "create an executable" from their Lisp program. http://www.cliki.net/creating%20executables 20:39:50 ok 20:40:33 <_6502_> in sbcl you must save lisp, and the you must die... or something like that :-) 20:42:01 haha 20:43:22 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:54 what cind of language is that when I cant export my program into a running file? 20:44:02 :S 20:44:12 files don't run 20:44:19 if your files are running, call your system administrator :> 20:44:41 suncica2222: running files is one of signs you got interesting batch of LSD 20:44:58 suncica2222: it's just different 20:45:21 easy binary distributions is one of the things I like ECL for; I've had some success with SBCL images in the past but it also was instable 20:45:24 -!- hissss [~x@adsl-75-13-170-138.dsl.fyvlar.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:45:26 all useful implemntations offer a way to make executables loadable by system 20:45:48 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-45.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:46:30 <_6502_> suncica2222: what about adding #!/usr/bin/clisp as first line and doing chmod +x on the file? 20:46:44 _6502_: he used ACL 20:47:16 <_6502_> p_l|backup: and it's not a CL implementation? 20:47:30 <_6502_> oh... windows 20:47:45 _6502_: no, but it's not /usr/bin/clisp ;-) 20:48:45 :) 20:49:10 files are just processes that are just sleeping for a bit 20:49:16 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 20:49:35 *p_l|backup* never worked with ACL's delivery 20:49:44 <_6502_> code is data after all :-) 20:49:51 Landr: maybe on Multics ;-) 20:50:10 -!- TristamWrk [8071f149@gateway/web/freenode/ip.128.113.241.73] has quit [] 20:50:42 (and well, possibly ITS. that system used a debugger for shell, everything was possible) 20:50:54 <_6502_> is it allowed for a CL-conforming implementation of dolist to also work on vectors or it must raise an error in that case? 20:50:55 lanthan [~ze@dslb-088-075-232-162.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:40 "dolist iterates over the elements of a list.", seems clear enough. 20:52:13 Bike: actually. 20:52:14 "dolist evaluates list-form, which should produce a list." 20:52:26 Oh 20:52:41 unfortunately, ANSI isn't the internet standards committee (: 20:53:11 -!- lanthan [~ze@dslb-088-075-232-162.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:53:14 so that "should" isn't as operative as I would like (: 20:53:34 but no, I think dolist is intended to signal type-errors if you pass it a non-list 20:54:04 no exceptional situations listed though 20:54:05 <_6502_> so this would be illegal? --> http://paste.lisp.org/+2MB5 20:54:17 lanthan [~ze@dslb-088-075-232-162.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:10 phadthai: neither does nthcdr list a type-error if the list isn't a list (: 20:55:25 nth is a function? right? 20:55:27 (nth n list) 20:55:29 _6502_: I don't see why it'd be illegal it's custom and uses map, which works on sequences 20:55:34 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:55:35 I actually defined dovector like that but expand to (the vector ,v) 20:55:58 <_6502_> phadthai: i mean if that was the implementation of dolist, of course... 20:56:05 _6502_: I'm not sure the wording in the ANS is really strong enough to call this illegal 20:56:31 in short, I'm no pfdietz. I wouldn't do it like that, and as a user I wouldn't expect this to work across implementations. 20:58:17 _6502_: you know that you can destructure sublists in a macro lambda list? 20:58:31 glidesurfer [~glidesurf@77-64-171-36.dynamic.primacom.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:35 <_6502_> tcr1: i do but i keep forgetting 20:58:56 (defmacro dolist ((var list &optional result) &body body) ...) 20:59:05 <_6502_> tcr1: actually i don't understand why that is not allowed for functions, but never thought about it seriously 20:59:10 Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:59:22 _6502_: also your BLOCK is placed incorrectly 20:59:24 <_6502_> boh... i forgot the result 20:59:30 <_6502_> boh=doh 20:59:59 declarations in body declaring the iteration variable will reach the correct binding 21:00:13 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-45.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:01:06 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c711b3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:01:23 <_6502_> tcr1: hmmm... i never think to declarations... and by the way; is saying (the vector x) before a (map nil) going to save anything? I suppose that map nil has a specialized loop for vectors anyway... 21:02:18 _6502_: in order to know what the compiler knows, sbcl gives you a lot of hints when you set speed 3 debug 0 21:02:56 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-17-206-5.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:03:21 _6502_: (map nil #'(lambda (x) ) (the vector )) should be replaced by an inline loop specialized on vectors 21:03:23 <_6502_> madnificient: i think you mean (safety 0) 21:03:35 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has quit [Quit: bye] 21:03:58 <_6502_> tcr1: oh... correct, it's not the first test the problem, but the inlining... this makes sense 21:04:15 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 21:04:36 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.209.120] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:04:49 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.209.120] has joined #lisp 21:06:03 antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:06:03 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:07:57 _6502_: yes indeed 21:08:10 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 21:08:22 _6502_: however, when sbcl doesn't hint me anything there, I generally assume that the effects will be non-existant 21:09:02 there is an guitar amplifier named 6505 made by Peavy 21:09:50 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:09:55 I would guess that s/he's named after the processor. 21:10:05 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.209.120] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:10:28 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.209.120] has joined #lisp 21:10:51 -!- cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:11:12 <_6502_> bike: it's the name of the first CPU i used, Apple ][ in 1982 21:11:22 lda #147 jsr $ffd2 21:11:26 Sure was a widespread one. 21:11:51 (c64 rom though) 21:12:12 <_6502_> phoodus: $A9 $93 $20 $d2 $ff 21:12:39 cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:53 apple][ was also my first computer 21:13:22 <_6502_> phoodus: i've still neurons burnt in stupid configurations that make me remember useless 6502 opcode (for quite a while i programmed without an assembler) 21:14:11 heh, yep I started off with DATA & POKE statements in BASIC myself 21:15:15 <_6502_> phoodus: i'd like to trade those configurations for similar ones storing chopin music, but apparently it's not possible 21:15:59 all you need is sufficient repitition 21:17:01 I've got a Bach piece burned into my muscle memory, but I learned it when my hands were smaller, so I'm always missing keys when I play it even though I can play other things just fine :-P 21:17:30 -!- sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:17:57 <_6502_> sufficient repetition and an age below 20 :-D ... that's the problem 21:18:35 heh 21:19:11 -!- varjag [~eugene@162.163.9.46.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:19:12 <_6502_> the thing is that while googling is ok for 6502 opcodes, it's somewhat harder when playing a fast paced piano piece 21:19:19 I still seem to be able to learn stuff at an ... older age than that ;) but it's just dedicating the time that's the problem, not the actual learning 21:21:19 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:21:23 <_6502_> phoodus: i can learn new pieces, but after a while i forget them, but i can remember pieces i learned when i was 14, and - as you said - these are in the hands. I've heard that for a professional piano player it's important to learn as many pieces as possible while young, because those pieces will stay there forever 21:21:44 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:03 <_6502_> opcodes were not a smart choice... 21:23:15 hmm I think that I still remember most 6502 instructions too despite not having to use them since a long while 21:23:29 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.209.120] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:23:39 I probably remember very few actual hex instructions though, mostly the assembler 21:23:49 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.209.120] has joined #lisp 21:23:50 I remember some hardware mapped addresses 21:24:58 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:26:41 <_6502_> phadthai: $C030 should click something in your memories... :-D 21:26:44 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.219.47] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:27:07 :) 21:27:46 very nice word play 21:28:20 <_6502_> trc1: would it work to just move block/tagbody outside of the lambda? 21:28:51 not for tagbody. 21:29:15 <_6502_> so declarations should be scanned and put inside the lambda... hmmm 21:29:31 <_6502_> sorry, outside 21:30:15 -!- suncica2222 [dfgfdgdfgd@P1-125.internet.krstarica.com] has left #lisp 21:30:18 <_6502_> outside the tagbody but inside the lambda 21:31:09 <_6502_> result is also annoying... hmm 21:31:14 <_6502_> i think i'll give up 21:32:10 *_6502_* begins to really understand why a code walker is so complex 21:33:17 _6502_: welcome to the jungle :) 21:33:52 <_6502_> in lisp there is no syntax 21:33:56 <_6502_> everything is uniform 21:34:10 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@205.233.9.181] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 21:34:28 <_6502_> it's not C++, ok 21:34:47 <_6502_> but uniform is something else :-) 21:36:11 -!- nixfreak_ [~nixfreak@mn-10k-dhcp1-3174.dsl.hickorytech.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:36:35 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-45.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:37:42 <_6502_> C++0X managed to make the syntax of C++ quite more complex, I wouldn't have thought that was possible 21:38:27 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.209.120] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:38:30 <_6502_> i hope it will fail badly (probably it won't however 21:38:50 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.209.120] has joined #lisp 21:41:52 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.236.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:42:36 I'm afraid this is like wishing that finnish should fail. 21:48:10 ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:48:46 francogrex [~user@109.130.219.47] has joined #lisp 21:50:08 -!- bsod1 [~sinan@188.58.181.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:51:46 -!- basho__ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-236-244.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:52:23 -!- _joey [~joey@120.19.45.144] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:52:42 with ecl to run it as a script on a file it's "ecl -shell file.lisp", what would be the equivalent for sbcl (on win32)? 21:54:40 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:55:24 -!- limetree [~simon@c-23e8e155.1226-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:55:59 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:56:25 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:58:55 -!- a1f is now known as milkpost 21:59:35 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.209.120] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:59:53 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.209.120] has joined #lisp 22:01:49 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:01:58 -!- pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has left #lisp 22:03:36 -!- realitygrill 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[~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:24:24 -!- milanj [~milanj_@79-101-138-223.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:26:38 Good morning everyone! 22:27:07 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:31:04 bugQ [~bug@c-67-186-255-54.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:18 HET2 [~diman@cpc12-cdif12-2-0-cust276.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:33:38 -!- realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.209.120] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:33:57 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.209.120] has joined #lisp 22:34:58 -!- sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:36:16 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:36:54 Joreji_ [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:39:13 suncica2222 [dfgfdgdfgd@P1-125.internet.krstarica.com] has joined #lisp 22:39:41 -!- suncica2222 [dfgfdgdfgd@P1-125.internet.krstarica.com] has left #lisp 22:42:12 -!- spurvewt [~fess@gate113.iba.by] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:42:18 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:42:49 -!- felideon [~felideon@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:42:55 spurvewt [~fess@gate113.iba.by] has joined #lisp 22:47:50 -!- Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@1807ds2-noe.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:49:01 pnq [~nick@ACA36C6C.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 22:51:26 bobbysmith0071 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 22:51:31 -!- spurvewt [~fess@gate113.iba.by] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:51:52 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:51:58 spurvewt [~fess@gate113.iba.by] has joined #lisp 22:53:44 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-149-15.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:55:02 billitch [~billitch@bastille.ma3.tv] has joined #lisp 22:56:51 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:57:55 Phooodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 22:58:09 -!- dmiles_afk [dmiles@c-24-21-133-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 22:58:11 -!- lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:58:22 dmiles_afk [dmiles@c-24-21-133-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:56 lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:25 Morning beach (00:58) (: 22:59:34 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:00:23 *jtza8* goes off to sleep. 23:00:26 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-197-79.wbs.co.za] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:02:22 -!- PuffTheMagic [~PuffTheMa@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:06:59 -!- galdor [galdor@def92-10-88-162-192-107.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:10:56 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-149-15.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:51 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-98-113-194-183.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:13:46 iori [~iori@110-133-45-54.rev.home.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:15:11 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:15:28 sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has joined #lisp 23:19:54 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:23:33 <_6502_> sleeptime for me (1:28am) 23:23:49 -!- _6502_ [5e24fd14@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.253.20] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:23:53 I really need a easy explonation of big o notation 23:23:59 as a non-cs coder 23:24:31 It's pure math, not computer science. 23:24:55 also, it has very little to do with lisp 23:25:05 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:25:10 antifuchs: which channel is best for this question? 23:25:10 I think Wikipedia's explanation should work well enough. 23:25:11 you can ask in #math. 23:25:38 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A3F8B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:25:47 arright. I thought you guys may know a great guide for learning about it 23:26:08 I like fundamentals of algorithmics. 23:26:24 shouldn't he ask in ##cs? 23:27:09 more CS people are confused about Landau notation than math. 23:29:44 -!- luke__ [~luke@2.103.109.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:29:45 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:30:49 Really? I would think the CS people would more often get the difference between evaluating a current algorithm and having a lower bound on a particular problem. 23:30:55 timjstewart1 [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 23:31:16 s/./ right./ 23:32:24 luke__ [~luke@2.103.109.213] has joined #lisp 23:33:24 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-59-60.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 23:35:20 Maybe because they don't have to learn the notation at the same time as one of its uses, I've seen them conflate, e.g. big-O and Theta much less often, or Omega and small-o. 23:36:20 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-59-60.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Client Quit] 23:39:35 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.161.86] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:40:27 galdor [galdor@def92-10-88-162-192-107.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:45:58 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:48:00 -!- ec|detached is now known as elliottcable 23:50:08 -!- xinming_ [~hyy@115.221.15.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:50:21 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 23:51:19 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-146-76.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:51:39 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:52:57 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:53:35 -!- Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.18.135] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:53:43 Bahman_ [~Bahman@2.146.18.135] has joined #lisp 23:55:25 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:57:00 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-17-206-5.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:56 -!- Bahman_ [~Bahman@2.146.18.135] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:58:01 -!- timjstewart1 [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:59:12 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp