00:01:32 wetnosed [~kai@e177088189.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 00:02:13 -!- holymoo [~chatzilla@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Iceape 2.0.11/20110429083448]] 00:02:54 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl15-230-254.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 00:03:22 Xach: hmm, that'd be pretty problematic, since I use two different setups for development and for deployment builds, and the latter is supposed to be in a completely clean environment 00:04:31 -!- wetnose__ [~kai@e179012122.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:05:11 okay, in the end I even had to uninstall sbcl because it pulled in a couple of dependencies such as ASDF 00:05:28 will retry with an sbcl from tarball or CVS now 00:05:46 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl15-230-254.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 00:05:53 Xach: but can't I just call what buildapp.exe calls to do its job? I could then load SBCL on my own, and thus pass --core 00:06:48 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:07:04 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-155-193-92.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:08:53 xxxyyy [~xyxu@124.76.14.42] has joined #lisp 00:10:53 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:15:47 yay. hunchentoot loaded successfully! thanks all Xach pjb madnificent 00:16:41 reason really was distribution garbage /sbcl-1.0.19 instead of -1.0.48 00:16:41 go you insomniaSalt 00:17:52 insomniaSalt: I'm told that some versions of gentoo have very nice support for CL, without the random asdf stuff and with up to date sbcls. 00:17:55 wow, 1.0.19 is really ancient, is that debian old-stable? 00:18:10 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@host81-131-243-141.range81-131.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:18:13 drdo: yeah 00:18:13 Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.253.139] has joined #lisp 00:18:21 maybe I should switch to CCL 00:18:26 but not tonight 00:18:42 LiamH [~healy@pool-96-237-236-14.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:53 pkhuong, insomniaSalt: that accounts to an overlay containing lisp stuff IIRC 00:20:23 should be, yes 00:20:40 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:21:30 -!- SpinDoctor [456cea51@gateway/web/freenode/ip.69.108.234.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:21:48 seems to be here: http://repo.or.cz/w/gentoo-lisp-overlay.git 00:22:19 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-139-181.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:22:30 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@pool-68-161-102-6.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 00:22:34 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:25:54 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:26:40 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 00:28:27 p_l|backup: the problem with any new formulation is that you need to pay a lawyer to check it is valid, or you need to finance a suit to check it stands in front of a court. 00:28:53 -!- udzinari [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: zzzzzzZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzz] 00:29:09 p_l|backup: that's why it's better to stay with proven licenses, or licenses backed by organizations rich enough to pay laywers, such as GPL (paid by the FSF) or BSD (paid by BSD) or MIT (paid by MIT). 00:30:39 BSD is not an organisation 00:32:07 Right, I meant UCB. 00:32:30 fe[nl]ix: no, but hasn't it been tested in court? 00:32:50 UCB has paid laywers to check the BSD. 00:33:15 So even if it hasn't been tested in court, you know somebody who knows the judge has said it was ok. 00:33:17 you said "paid by BSD" 00:33:27 and I meant paid by UCB. 00:36:19 madnificent: "tested in court" doesn't mean much 00:36:47 fe[nl]ix: In some countries it does, because they use jurisprudence much more than in others. 00:37:38 pjb: read http://faculty.msb.edu/hasnasj/GTWebSite/MythWeb.htm 00:38:03 Of course it's a dumb system where judges can give persona to corporations, but what can you expect from degenerate countries. 00:38:05 it also means that a lawyer has looked at it and interpreted it in his understandings. That may not be perfect, but it's better than "no lawyer has looked at it" 00:38:33 -!- ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.164.224] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:38:35 (Well it's not entirely their fault, it's only they've not been colonized by the Romans enough) 00:38:54 Or sufficiently pillaged by Vikings? :) 00:39:02 That would have helped too :-) 00:39:50 Vikings were great rulers, they gave tsars to Russia, and dukes to Normandy :-) 00:41:05 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Quit: eugu] 00:41:58 ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.164.224] has joined #lisp 00:42:31 pjb: I didn't know about the tsars. Clearly, I have much to learn about Russian history. 00:42:32 sylecn [~sylecn@cpe-70-112-211-195.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:45:49 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:47:08 jfleming: russian history is like mostly all history (north america, china, europe...). Vikings come and bring civilization. and after that some shit happens. 00:47:31 schme: LoL 00:49:55 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 00:52:06 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:55:57 katesmith [~katesmith@97-89-229-3.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:55:57 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@97-89-229-3.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 00:55:57 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 00:57:29 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 00:59:45 Xach: btw, it seems that WITH-TEMPFILE is broken, and happily throws SIMPLE-FILE-ERROR: 00:59:45 error opening #P"D:/Mass Effect/dumper-YKYna1b3.lisp": The file exists at me 00:59:54 wetnosed_ [~kai@e177090088.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 01:02:09 Jasko [~tjasko@75.95.236.229] has joined #lisp 01:02:37 -!- wetnosed [~kai@e177088189.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:03:07 maxigas [~user@mail.szervermegoldasok.hu] has joined #lisp 01:03:17 -!- maxigas [~user@mail.szervermegoldasok.hu] has left #lisp 01:03:29 -!- ec2-user [~ec2-user@ec2-50-16-101-220.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:07:02 -!- gozoner [~ebg@ip68-6-68-92.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 01:09:27 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 01:10:30 akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-093-204.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:11:29 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-155-193-92.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:13:27 Axioplase [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 01:16:41 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:17:30 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 01:19:04 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 01:19:26 expanse [d066e9a1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.208.102.233.161] has joined #lisp 01:23:30 cbp [~Cesar@189.139.131.80] has joined #lisp 01:24:13 Okay, I'm stupid and lazy. How do I translate from 0,0 at upper-left (SVG) to 0,0 at bottom right (vecto) coordinates? 01:25:26 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-98-113-194-183.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 01:26:30 -!- sylecn [~sylecn@cpe-70-112-211-195.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:27:06 Ah, never mind. Figured it out. 01:30:05 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-96-237-236-14.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:38:12 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-139-181.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 01:38:40 Calyce1 [~julie@248.79-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 01:40:04 -!- Calyce [~julie@164.61-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:41:03 gozoner [~ebg@ip68-6-68-92.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:34 mpereira [~mpereira@ec2-50-16-8-218.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 01:44:20 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:44:23 Xach: Yay Vector! http://www.gigamonkeys.com/tmp/fleuron.png (created by semi-automatically translating an SVG file) 01:50:10 zmv [~daniel@c9533906.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 01:51:20 Er, Yay Vecto! 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has joined #lisp 04:01:41 -!- leyyer_su [~user@182.151.66.200] has quit [Client Quit] 04:01:43 comatose_kid [~comatose_@c-24-6-139-254.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:02:28 leyyer_su [~user@182.151.66.200] has joined #lisp 04:02:50 () 04:02:57 -!- leyyer_su [~user@182.151.66.200] has left #lisp 04:03:46 chp [~chp@2001:da8:a000:155:5eff:35ff:fe0c:c3ef] has joined #lisp 04:07:05 (1) 04:10:37 splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 04:13:22 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:13:51 -!- Landr [~user@dD5770CBB.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:14:23 -!- ubii [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:19:28 slyrus [~chatzilla@99-27-205-152.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:25:45 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.202] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:29:37 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:40:26 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl15-230-254.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 04:41:19 -!- cbp [~Cesar@189.139.131.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:45:09 cbp [~Cesar@189.247.2.59] has joined #lisp 04:45:12 -!- Calyce1 is now known as Calyce 04:46:19 -!- Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:46:49 superjudge [~superjudg@195.22.80.141] has joined #lisp 04:49:00 Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 04:52:19 -!- gozoner [~ebg@ip68-6-68-92.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:53:02 basho__ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-224-056.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:59:21 <_3b> gigamonkey: sounds like it is a bit late, but paste 78719 has some svg->vecto stuff ( http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:6lmsk6G4SnsJ:paste.lisp.org/%2B1OQN since lisppase seems down) 04:59:59 pastie.org is my favourite at times 05:00:08 it's so colorfull 05:00:11 lol 05:00:40 but somehow lisp or common-lisp for the source spec is hidden in the menus... 05:00:52 mostly i see other source specs in the foreground.... 05:01:43 <_3b> paren highlighting and links to hyperspec are nice in lisppaste, particularly when debugging strangely written code :) 05:02:22 yes, but the background is sooo white, my eyes bleed at night sometimes.... 05:02:34 because of contrast 05:02:58 well, i have mostly everything on black background on my debian here.... 05:03:13 *_3b* gave up on trying to keep web stuff dark :( 05:03:39 <_3b> too lazy to completely rewrite the css for every site i visit, and just forcing background color never works out well 05:04:12 no i meant no forcing.... 05:04:18 should be done server side.... 05:05:16 <_3b> well, expecting everyone to use a color scheme i like would probably work out even less well :p 05:07:26 deadgnome [deadgnome@173.218.221.143] has joined #lisp 05:08:15 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.253.139] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:08:44 well, they could at least try to get the date from the connecting client and provide an night or day look ? 05:08:48 maybe 05:09:15 don't know if that's feasible, possible.... 05:11:01 _3b: yeah, my tiny little problem is solved via ad hockery. But that paste looks neat. 05:11:34 CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 05:12:25 -!- deadgnome [deadgnome@173.218.221.143] has quit [] 05:15:26 Jasko [~tjasko@75.95.236.229] has joined #lisp 05:16:21 JamezQ [~james@157.sub-174-254-227.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 05:17:19 Hello, google, the clisp website, all have given up on me. I'm simply trying to run a program from the command line via #!/usr/local/bin/clisp or clisp "fine". 05:17:30 But, if it has (defun), it will not let me. 05:17:38 WARNING: DEFUN/DEFMACRO(NIL): # is locked 05:17:38 Ignore the lock and proceed 05:18:01 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-bglcuwtborktgnel] has joined #lisp 05:18:08 What is your defun form? 05:18:58 well, I'm not 100% sure what that means but here is an example : (defun chi (n s q) (/ (* (- n 1.0) (expt s 2) ) (expt q 2) ) ) 05:19:12 Try cl-user::chi instead. 05:19:46 or export it 05:20:00 I seem to be ignorant, any help to elaborate on that 05:20:05 how do I "try" it? 05:20:20 By editing your file and re-running that command ... 05:20:25 (defun cl-user::chi ...) 05:20:31 mcsontos_ [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-rhhsekkotfzfmvta] has joined #lisp 05:20:36 JamezQ: (in-package :cl-user) at the top 05:20:38 Thanks Phoodus, thats what I meantt 05:21:43 I don't know if that warning is saying you're trying to change the fdefinition of NIL 05:21:50 oconnore: That does not seem to work, however what Phoodus says works 05:22:11 that means that the symbol chi is used in the common-lisp package already, for some reason 05:22:21 really? 05:22:25 let me try to change the names 05:22:33 it worked for me... 05:22:54 Ah, changing the names worked! 05:22:56 If those work, then you need to find out why your package not set up in the usual fashion. 05:23:03 oconnore: you're also in clisp? 05:23:09 So, look for another command line argument to specify the package to use by default. 05:23:12 well, i tested in clisp, yes 05:23:24 typically clozure 05:23:33 Then put the code back the way it was originally. 05:24:17 uhh, I just installed clisp via apt-get, sorry, don't hurt me. But I'm not sure what a "package" is in this context 05:24:28 man clisp 05:24:29 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for clisp. 05:24:33 Read about -p 05:24:34 packages in lisp are the symbol namespaces 05:24:38 gor[e] [~svr@gw2.masterhost.ru] has joined #lisp 05:25:28 the # has all the symbol definitions for NIL, DEFUN, +, etc 05:27:04 -!- cbp [~Cesar@189.247.2.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:27:08 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:27:24 JamezQ: http://paste.org/pastebin/view/33771 05:27:43 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-155-193-92.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:28:31 well oconnore, thats a different name 05:28:41 the problem seemed to be that chi was used already 05:28:47 would it work if it was named chi? 05:28:55 No. That wasn't the problem. 05:29:03 yes, it would work 05:29:10 (it does work) 05:29:13 The problem was that you were trying to add something to the COMMON-LISP package. 05:29:16 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.207.106] has joined #lisp 05:29:30 You should have added it to the CL-USER package. 05:29:51 -!- comatose_kid [~comatose_@c-24-6-139-254.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 05:30:39 -!- JamezQ [~james@157.sub-174-254-227.myvzw.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:32:23 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 05:33:12 JamezQ [~james@157.sub-174-254-227.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 05:35:02 alright, clisp -p "common-lisp-user" does not work, nor does cl-user. googling... 05:35:39 Try spelling them properly. 05:35:53 COMMON-LISP-USER 05:43:17 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:47:02 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:47:19 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-166-251.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:49:32 limetree [~simon@c-23e8e155.1226-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 05:49:42 -!- gor[e] 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quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:05:49 -!- Calyce [~julie@248.79-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:09:37 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:10:03 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@ip72-200-123-53.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:10:03 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@ip72-200-123-53.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Changing host] 06:10:03 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 06:12:49 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 06:13:14 Liera [~Liera@113.172.38.123] has joined #lisp 06:13:28 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.236.13] has joined #lisp 06:13:48 -!- splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:14:19 Calyce [~julie@248.79-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 06:16:11 Areil [~user@113.172.38.123] has joined #lisp 06:20:33 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:7a2b:cbff:fed0:c11c] has joined #lisp 06:20:33 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:7a2b:cbff:fed0:c11c] has quit [Changing host] 06:20:33 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 06:22:55 lanthan [~ze@p54B7F6C6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:23:11 -!- Calyce [~julie@248.79-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:27:21 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:27:41 -!- mcsontos_ [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-rhhsekkotfzfmvta] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:27:41 good morning 06:30:24 splittist [~splittist@225-54.3-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:30:41 Ralith_ [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:30:42 -!- Ralith_ [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:30:47 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:30:48 Ralith_ [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:31:52 -!- Ralith_ is now known as Ralith 06:32:26 Calyce [~julie@248.79-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 06:32:44 -!- limetree [~simon@c-23e8e155.1226-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:34:11 -!- benny [~benny@i577A1CC8.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:36:52 -!- wtetzner [~wtetzner@c-24-218-19-210.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:41:15 Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has joined #lisp 06:41:35 jmbr [~jmbr@115.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 06:42:10 wtetzner [~wtetzner@c-24-218-19-210.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:42:39 -!- beach [~user@116.118.6.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:46:31 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 06:46:38 good morning 06:51:47 -!- splittist [~splittist@225-54.3-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: splittist] 06:52:05 spurvewt [~fess@gate113.iba.by] has joined #lisp 06:53:39 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.207.106] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 06:53:47 Changxue [~user@118.122.165.4] has joined #lisp 06:54:01 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 06:58:18 -!- gauge_ [~gauge@c-76-118-243-73.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:58:27 splittist [~splittist@225-54.3-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:58:55 morning 06:59:10 hello everyone 07:01:00 Good afternoon everyone! 07:07:06 bad-egg [~chatzilla@183.37.51.192] has joined #lisp 07:07:19  07:08:24  07:13:01 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-176-201-99.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 07:14:53 g` [~user@118.122.165.4] has joined #lisp 07:15:16 -!- g` [~user@118.122.165.4] has quit [Client Quit] 07:15:45 -!- ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.164.224] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:17:39 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.40.235] has joined #lisp 07:18:35 -!- Changxue [~user@118.122.165.4] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 07:24:40 beaumonta [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 07:26:16 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-88-171.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:26:28 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 07:26:34 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:30:05 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-31-59.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:36:20 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-150-156.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:37:29 Night-hacks [~nullpoint@95.38.52.69] has joined #lisp 07:37:40 -!- Night-hacks [~nullpoint@95.38.52.69] has left #lisp 07:40:12 wizardcloud_Adam [~admin@124.129.54.209] has joined #lisp 07:49:36 wislin [~user@118.122.165.4] has joined #lisp 07:49:50 -!- bad-egg [~chatzilla@183.37.51.192] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:50:21 Good afternoon, Chinese friends. 07:50:24 bad-egg [~chatzilla@183.37.201.225] has joined #lisp 07:50:41 Good afternoon. 07:51:11 Good information about Lisp here... 07:51:21 :-) 07:52:53 superjudge_ [~superjudg@195.22.80.140] has joined #lisp 07:53:32 I am lispfan, but learing common lisp is not easy. 07:54:58 -!- Calyce [~julie@248.79-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:55:03 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@195.22.80.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:55:03 -!- superjudge_ is now known as superjudge 07:57:50 -!- wizardcloud_Adam [~admin@124.129.54.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:59:33 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-nhpbpoploulpidcp] has joined #lisp 08:00:01 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.36.240] has joined #lisp 08:02:14 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75551b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:02:51 misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has joined #lisp 08:03:55 -!- lanthan [~ze@p54B7F6C6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 08:04:22 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 08:07:04 -!- abeaumont is now known as abeaumont_ 08:07:35 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-38-156-48.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:07:38 -!- 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[~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 09:09:27 pdo [~pdo@217.33.254.141] has joined #lisp 09:10:02 -!- Harag [~phil@dsl-242-253-46.telkomadsl.co.za] has left #lisp 09:14:16 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@195.22.80.140] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 09:17:16 wetnosed [~kai@e179008184.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:17:53 wizardcloud_Adam [~admin@124.129.54.209] has joined #lisp 09:18:15 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl15-230-254.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 09:18:27 superjudge [~superjudg@195.22.80.141] has joined #lisp 09:19:58 -!- wetnosed_ [~kai@e177090088.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:20:56 Calyce [~julie@248.79-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 09:21:11 -!- Calyce [~julie@248.79-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has left #lisp 09:22:29 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl15-230-254.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 09:23:00 Night-hacks [~nullpoint@95.38.52.69] has joined #lisp 09:23:37 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl15-230-254.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 09:29:29 mobydick [~textual@124-171-177-47.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:31:54 -!- Guthur [c0c1f510@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.193.245.16] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:32:47 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-219-107.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:32:48 Can anyone suggest a good place to start in setting up an SQL database back-end with CLSQL? 09:35:26 mobydick: could you elaborate on what you mean by "database back-end"? 09:35:40 ... e.g. for what? 09:36:32 Calyce [~julie@248.79-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 09:36:56 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 09:37:48 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@82.166.248.14] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:39:24 alama [~alama@86.93.35.187] has joined #lisp 09:39:30 -!- Night-hacks [~nullpoint@95.38.52.69] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:42:21 Night-hacks [~nullpoint@95.38.52.69] has joined #lisp 09:42:22 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-152-135-21.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:42:27 It seems that when a keyword is specified twice in a function call, the first argument is prioritised, can I rely on that? 09:42:32 -!- Night-hacks [~nullpoint@95.38.52.69] has left #lisp 09:43:05 For example: 09:43:08 francogrex [~user@109.130.96.236] has joined #lisp 09:44:25 (apply #'foo (append '(:important "keywords") secondary-keywords)) 09:45:12 jtza8: yes. See 3.4.1.4 "If more than one [keyword] argument pair matches, the leftmost argument pair is used." 09:45:49 HET2 [~diman@cpc12-cdif12-2-0-cust276.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:45:57 Thanks splittist, you saved me a lot of time. 09:47:07 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc12-cdif12-2-0-cust276.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 09:49:31 HET2 [~diman@cpc12-cdif12-2-0-cust276.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:49:40 -!- wizardcloud_Adam [~admin@124.129.54.209] has quit [Quit: ] 09:49:42 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:51:12 Xof [~crhodes@dunstaple.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:51:19 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:52:20 Hi, for those who develop web application in CL, do you have a (commercial) host or do you use your own computer as a hosting service? 09:52:56 Night-hacks [~nullpoint@95.38.52.69] has joined #lisp 09:53:29 -!- Calyce [~julie@248.79-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 09:56:10 francogrex: I use serverbeach.com 09:56:38 jtza8: very handy for overriding keywords with APPLY 09:56:53 Calyce [~julie@248.79-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 09:57:56 jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.6.210] has joined #lisp 10:00:02 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 10:00:40 billitch [~billitch@did75-20-88-183-33-86.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:01:18 -!- Calyce [~julie@248.79-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:02:26 Guthur [c743cb8c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.140] has joined #lisp 10:03:11 -!- xan_ [~xan@38.Red-80-25-35.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:05:52 oudeis [~oudeis@62.219.152.214] has joined #lisp 10:06:52 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-139-181.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:11:41 jingtao` [~jingtaozf@123.120.6.210] has joined #lisp 10:11:42 -!- jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.6.210] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:12:51 udzinari [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 10:13:50 ok 10:15:21 Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@1807ds2-noe.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 10:15:22 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@62.219.152.214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:16:44 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:17:12 Calyce [~julie@248.79-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 10:18:21 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.36.240] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:23:00 -!- Night-hacks [~nullpoint@95.38.52.69] has left #lisp 10:26:17 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 10:26:36 Xach: indeed (: 10:27:41 c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-unaytxiclvdjxubu] has joined #lisp 10:30:09 yakov [~yakov@109.188.180.218] has joined #lisp 10:30:52 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 10:33:23 snearch [~snearch@f053007058.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:34:31 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@124.76.14.42] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:35:17 add^_ 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[~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:11:43 Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 11:12:04 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 11:12:35 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-146-210.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:13:05 -!- mobydick [~textual@124-171-177-47.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 11:17:40 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.167.154] has joined #lisp 11:19:39 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:22:38 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:23:44 -!- alama [~alama@86.93.35.187] has quit [Quit: alama] 11:29:06 silenius [~silenus@p4FC23EE7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:30:53 Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #lisp 11:33:05 drl [~lat@110.139.230.255] has joined #lisp 11:41:13 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 11:42:22 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.255] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:43:03 billitch_ [~billitch@did75-20-88-183-33-86.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:44:11 -!- billitch [~billitch@did75-20-88-183-33-86.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:44:30 oudeis [~oudeis@62.219.152.214] has joined #lisp 11:47:44 what is da best way to prepare documentation for my library? :-) 11:47:52 urandom__ [~user@p548A5712.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:48:10 yakov: I like HTML. 11:48:32 i mean, a tool. i also consider output in html. 11:49:03 i've tried documentation-template but it ignores blank lines in documentation strings so everything is ugly 11:49:06 I like to use emacs to write the HTML. 11:49:07 yakov, try http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-api/ 11:49:09 yakov: if you host it on eg. github, there are some markup languages available directly. 11:49:40 yakov: try markdown! 11:50:12 also, what flip214 said (it's basically the same) 11:50:13 yakov, it generates something like http://common-lisp.net/project/clonsigna/api.shtml 11:50:16 Xach, you do not use automation, do you? i mean it tedious to copy-pase documentation strings to hand writen html 11:50:37 yakov: I don't use docstrings the same way I use prose documentation. 11:50:57 i see. 11:51:18 yakov: depends on your needs. Eg on threading-feed I went the other way - I generate LISP code (constants) from the user-visible documentation. 11:51:34 docstrings should probably be more of a hint than an exposition. 11:51:45 that has the nice effect that, in order to get something working, I *need* to write some documentation first ;-) 11:51:53 :-) 11:52:03 cl-api is not in quicklisp yet? 11:52:52 I don't know. I'm currently writing another software 11:53:00 so I didn't check it out 11:53:05 Zhivago, i see nothing heretic having multi-line doc string. otherwise how one will seat in repl and program?! 11:53:22 -!- sellout- [~Adium@pool-71-175-25-141.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:53:38 how will one.. 11:53:58 (*another oos sofware that is consuming all my spare time) 11:54:23 having doxygen would be nice ... that gives nice, hyperlinked documentations with lots of funny pictures ;-) 11:54:31 I hope it will be usefull :) 11:54:33 but it doesn't handle lisp yet 11:54:55 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@62.219.152.214] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:55:01 lisppaste coming back anytime soon? 11:55:06 flip214, documentation-template seems to be close imo :-) 11:55:13 flip214, but then docstrings would be less readeable 11:55:20 yakov: A multi-line hint is fine -- but if it's too long, how will you see it in the repl? 11:55:41 drl [~lat@110.139.230.255] has joined #lisp 11:55:53 yakov: Besides which, there are better tools for writing and maintaining proper documentation. 11:56:07 yakov: I'm looking at that right now 11:56:10 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-139-181.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 11:56:11 yakov: there's a program that mixes org-mode and CL source 11:56:47 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 11:58:57 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-139-181.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:00:24 beach [~user@116.118.73.52] has joined #lisp 12:03:27 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:06:33 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 12:08:37 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 12:09:53 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 12:10:42 Yuzu- [~yuzuchan@p5052-ipad406osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:13:00 ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 12:13:05 urs_ [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 12:13:23 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.255] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:13:40 -!- workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:14:33 workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 12:15:07 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:15:08 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053007058.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 12:15:38 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.167.154] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:16:15 mobydick [~textual@124-171-177-47.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 12:16:42 Yuzu-_ [~yuzuchan@p5052-ipad406osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:17:13 alama [~alama@n138232.science.ru.nl] has joined #lisp 12:18:13 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@75.95.236.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:20:13 -!- Yuzu- [~yuzuchan@p5052-ipad406osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:20:40 -!- alama [~alama@n138232.science.ru.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 12:20:58 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-139-181.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 12:23:08 Jasko [~tjasko@75.95.236.229] has joined #lisp 12:24:30 Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:24:39 drl [~lat@110.139.230.255] has joined #lisp 12:26:13 oudeis [~oudeis@62.219.152.214] has joined #lisp 12:26:28 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-155-193-92.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:34 gigamonkey: i don't think fleuron is a real thing 12:30:34 is it a taste of a new generation? 12:31:48 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 12:31:58 jweiss [~user@cpe-069-134-063-238.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:36:32 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@62.219.152.214] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 12:37:11 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-civnsqgsyhxajzav] has joined #lisp 12:37:11 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-civnsqgsyhxajzav] has quit [Changing host] 12:37:11 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 12:37:22 -!- billitch_ [~billitch@did75-20-88-183-33-86.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:38:37 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 12:41:38 Hey can someone suggest a good SQL database to use with CLSQL and where to get it from? 12:42:11 mobydick: you asked that earlier, though worded slightly different 12:42:25 yea sorry I got distracted cooking dinner 12:42:30 CLSQL seems to be design to work with a wide variety of Dbs 12:42:38 Im not quite sure how to word it 12:42:47 scratch clsql, use postgresql with postmodern 12:42:49 so presumably you can just pick one 12:43:40 it you aren't tied to a particular db something like stassats' suggestion is probably a good idea 12:43:58 I'm working on a web-app and want to store a bunch of information in tables that can be accessed independent of my program 12:44:42 billitch [~billitch@did75-20-88-183-33-86.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:44:59 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-139-181.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:45:14 yep that's a database alright 12:45:23 hehe 12:45:42 cbp [~Cesar@189.139.219.96] has joined #lisp 12:46:31 lanthan [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:46:38 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-150-156.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:46:40 Good suggestion for the database part? 12:47:21 postmodern works only on postgresql 12:47:24 postgresql is very good. 12:48:09 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-139-181.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:49:06 possibly postgresql + perec 12:49:29 though just postmodrn might be enough 12:49:33 ahh ok now im up to speed 12:49:39 postmodern is the database haha 12:51:08 mobydick: no. 12:51:16 mobydick: postmodern is a database access library. 12:51:22 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:51:43 it's like clsql in that regard, except it does not work on multiple databases. it just works on postgresql (the database engine) 12:51:45 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:51:53 haha man im getting there 12:51:56 postmodern is what comes after modern 12:52:00 but thanks 12:52:39 -!- billitch [~billitch@did75-20-88-183-33-86.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:54:19 we've went past postmodern now, it's something like premodern 12:54:25 prefuture even 12:54:51 -!- mobydick [~textual@124-171-177-47.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:54:59 -!- yakov [~yakov@109.188.180.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:55:50 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl15-230-254.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 12:57:01 i use google to determine how much "post"s to put before modern 12:57:02 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.255] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:58:08 postpostpostpostpostpostpostpostmodernism sounds about right 13:09:08 is it a recursive thing 13:09:20 is modernisms stack likely to explode sometime soon 13:10:55 -!- Yuzu-_ [~yuzuchan@p5052-ipad406osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:12:09 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.167.87.81] has joined #lisp 13:14:08 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.167.154] has joined #lisp 13:16:01 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:16:05 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:16:27 Yuzu- [~yuzuchan@p5052-ipad406osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:17:40 -!- Kajtek is now known as Kajtek_ 13:18:27 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.167.154] has quit [Client Quit] 13:19:23 billitch [~billitch@did75-20-88-183-33-86.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:20:40 -!- bug_zapper [4a6fc587@gateway/web/freenode/ip.74.111.197.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:20:45 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:21:09 ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has joined #lisp 13:23:34 Night-hacks [~nullpoint@95.38.52.69] has joined #lisp 13:27:12 billitch_ [~billitch@did75-20-88-183-33-86.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:28:13 -!- billitch [~billitch@did75-20-88-183-33-86.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:28:19 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75551b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 13:28:56 -!- mcsontos_ [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-puxgdpjneuqpdyrm] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:35:33 -!- fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:35:36 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 13:35:42 fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 13:36:31 -!- misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:36:48 misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has joined #lisp 13:38:44 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:40:25 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:40:28 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.167.87.81] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:40:28 wislin [~user@220.166.12.212] has joined #lisp 13:41:00 loke_ [~elias@bb219-74-213-69.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 13:42:25 hi 13:42:56 muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:43:10 is side effect's just result of structure-sharing ? 13:43:24 or there are other situation's causes it. 13:43:37 Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.206.105] has joined #lisp 13:44:08 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.178.198.167] has joined #lisp 13:44:19 Any I/O can be considered a side-effect. 13:44:41 -!- loke [~elias@bb121-6-24-233.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:44:52 drl [~lat@110.139.230.255] has joined #lisp 13:44:53 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.167.154] has joined #lisp 13:44:57 If you're calling a function for any reason other than to get the result, you're relying on side-effects. 13:45:08 Night-hacks: structure sharing does not necessarily imply side effects (look at conses, for instance) 13:45:27 and what jdz says 13:45:39 so general term 13:46:11 Sharing structure provides a conduit for side-effects to flow down. 13:46:14 Night-hacks: side effects usually are the result of modifying existing stuff, instead of creating new stuff from old stuff 13:46:19 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:46:29 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 13:46:41 A function is a mapping from arguments to results. 13:47:01 Anything else isn't a function, and has side-effects. 13:47:20 i think it must be so old term when there were all functions, 13:47:55 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has joined #lisp 13:49:02 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:49:09 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:50:56 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 13:51:14 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:52:27 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@240.29.195.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:52:40 rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 13:52:41 ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.90.75] has joined #lisp 13:53:13 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 13:54:02 -!- ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.90.75] has quit [Client Quit] 13:54:28 bad-egg [~user@183.37.43.99] has joined #lisp 13:54:46 brown [~user@nat/google/x-hoahrbmhadxuteca] has joined #lisp 13:55:07 -!- brown is now known as reb 13:56:16 zmv [~daniel@c9533906.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 13:56:17 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 13:57:05 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 13:57:51 tsuru [~charlie@adsl-74-179-198-44.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 13:58:11 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:58:41 -!- bad-egg [~user@183.37.43.99] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:01:23 -!- jingtao` [~jingtaozf@123.120.6.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:01:33 amb007 [~a_bakic@240.29.195.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:14 -!- wislin [~user@220.166.12.212] has left #lisp 14:09:47 Hmm...I'm totally forgetting, is there a way to assign variables to a list of elements? For example...lets say something like (a b c d e) = (split "\\\t" line), something like that. 14:10:23 destructuring-bind 14:10:24 clhs d-b 14:10:25 DESTRUCTURING-BIND: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_destru.htm 14:11:03 wislin [~user@220.166.12.212] has joined #lisp 14:11:12 ok thanks, will look that up 14:12:50 -!- Night-hacks [~nullpoint@95.38.52.69] has left #lisp 14:13:08 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:42 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:13:52 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-219-107.wbs.co.za] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:14:40 -!- jweiss [~user@cpe-069-134-063-238.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:15:03 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 14:15:30 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.65.209.45] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:16:16 jweiss [~user@cpe-069-134-063-238.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:16:17 sabalaba 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[~m@kwlan1.uoks.uj.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 14:32:58 Hello 14:33:16 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 14:34:22 lisppaste [~lisppaste@tiger.common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 14:34:29 m__h__: Good morning/afternoon/evening. 14:34:48 :) 14:34:51 minion [~minion@tiger.common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 14:34:58 specbot [~specbot@tiger.common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 14:35:11 -!- splittist [~splittist@225-54.3-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:35:52 benny` [~benny@i577A87F8.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:38:16 -!- benny` is now known as benny 14:39:21 hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:42 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:47 -!- wislin` [~user@220.166.12.212] has left #lisp 14:43:51 barryfm [~barryfm@fl-71-51-64-129.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 14:44:03 -!- loke_ is now known as loke 14:44:09 leyyer_su [~user@118.113.24.211] has joined #lisp 14:44:49 -!- m__h__ [~m@kwlan1.uoks.uj.edu.pl] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 14:45:45 m__h__ [~m@kwlan1.uoks.uj.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 14:46:33 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:47:11 splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 14:51:07 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.245.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:51:39 -!- jrockway [~jrockway@jrockway-2-pt.tunnel.tserv9.chi1.ipv6.he.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:51:46 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:51:49 -!- misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:52:07 -!- zbigniew [~zb@ipv6.3e8.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:53:14 zbigniew [~zb@ipv6.3e8.org] has joined #lisp 14:53:19 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.206.105] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 14:53:20 jrockway [~jrockway@jrockway-2-pt.tunnel.tserv9.chi1.ipv6.he.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:34 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:01:28 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 15:01:59 -!- Yuzu- [~yuzuchan@p5052-ipad406osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:03:49 Yuzu- [~yuzuchan@p5052-ipad406osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:04:01 sonnym1 [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 15:04:20 why do I have (EQ SB-THREAD::ME (SB-THREAD::MUTEX-%OWNER SB-THREAD:MUTEX)) failed. when I call (bt:condition-wait mycond1 mylock1) ? 15:05:46 kiuma: does the thread that condition-waits hold the lock? 15:06:15 pkhuong, I've done the following: 15:06:56 please use a paste website. 15:07:09 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has joined #lisp 15:07:31 http://paste.lisp.org/display/122186 15:07:32 :) 15:07:45 of course 15:08:37 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-176-90.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Offline] 15:10:28 Check the documentation. bt on sbcl only supports with-recursive-lock. 15:11:14 I don't know why the default implementation is to silently not do anything, though. 15:11:44 with-lock-held works thought 15:11:47 yes. 15:12:00 With-recursive-lock will work, but not acquire-recursive-lock. 15:12:24 If you stick to regular non-recursive locks, you'll be fine. IME, recursive locks are a design smell, though. 15:13:18 You very rarely need them, and when you think you do, they often end up partially hiding a fundamental design issue, without actually fixing it. 15:13:19 -!- huehnts [~huehnts@static.213-239-210-158.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:13:48 -!- leyyer_su [~user@118.113.24.211] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:14:41 The best place for locks is generally hidden in message queues. 15:15:19 You can use them to partition the program into domains of responsibility. 15:15:46 And sometimes you end up abusing message queues to implement mutex and shared memory. 15:16:11 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-152-135-21.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 15:16:20 Personally I try to avoid threads and shared memory due to scaling issues. 15:16:36 If you do that, all of these problems also disappear. 15:16:42 pkhuong: that's interesting, some think the exact opposite 15:17:14 fe[nl]ix: wrt message queues and shared memory concurrency? 15:17:15 (unless I misremember some discussions I had with martin simmons and others, recently) 15:17:21 Some people think that chopping off their legs is sexy. 15:17:29 pkhuong: about recursive locks 15:17:38 fortitudeZDY [~fortitude@210.192.101.122] has joined #lisp 15:17:43 -!- urs_ [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 15:20:13 ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.53.12] has joined #lisp 15:20:17 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:20:34 pkhuong, what I need is a thread queue and the main/parent thread that notifies the first available thread ... 15:20:58 Notifies it of what? 15:21:16 And why would that require a recursive lock? 15:21:22 is there a message queue library for CL? 15:21:30 Guthur: dozens. 15:22:10 pkhuong: any recommendation 15:22:14 -!- fortitudeZDY [~fortitude@210.192.101.122] has quit [Client Quit] 15:22:18 Zhivago, notifies that that thread is the worker for a soclet connection 15:22:21 -!- Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:22:24 Davsebamse [~davse@94.127.49.1] has joined #lisp 15:22:33 fortitudeZDY [~fortitude@210.192.101.122] has joined #lisp 15:22:34 Zhivago, no I don't need recursive lock. 15:22:35 Guthur: I like sb-queue. 15:22:55 it was an attempt 15:23:00 -!- zmv [~daniel@c9533906.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:24:12 pkhuong, could sb-queue what I need ? 15:25:16 there's a mailbox implementation in sb-concurrency 15:26:09 lichtblau [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 15:26:11 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@99-27-205-152.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:26:41 and sb-queue is now called sb-concurrency:queue 15:26:42 good old SBCL, as everything a modern coder needs, hehe 15:26:51 as/has 15:27:07 it doesn't have an editor! 15:27:07 depends on the workload. sb-queue is lock-free, so it'll spin instead of waiting on locks. Useful if you have a very rapid stream of tiny tasks. 15:27:19 stassats: lichtblau is working on that ;) 15:27:21 -!- fortitudeZDY [~fortitude@210.192.101.122] has quit [Client Quit] 15:27:54 Guthur: I believe chanl, calispel, etc, can be used as mailbox libs. 15:28:31 if by concurrent queues you mean objects that you can send/receive through that automatically block, allow you to fill up before blocking, etc. 15:28:59 the mailbox uses a semaphore, so the OS scheduler lets threads sleep until they have something to do; useful if the message queue works at a lower frequency. 15:29:19 sykopomp: yep that's pretty much what I mean, they have cooler names as well, hehe 15:30:43 If you have sustained bursts of traffic, with stretches of nothing, you can take something like a lock-free queue and tack a mutex/condvar combo in front of it that's only used when threads have spinned for a while. 15:31:31 -!- chp [~chp@2001:da8:a000:155:5eff:35ff:fe0c:c3ef] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:31:35 I think the best default is just to go with the mailbox and look around if it becomes a bottleneck. 15:32:11 is there any definitive reading material on concurrent programming constructs? 15:32:49 I often hear of things like lock free goodness, but have never found much in the way of literature 15:34:15 lock free doesn't mean "worry free" 15:34:52 The problem is consensus. 15:35:12 Lock free just atomically tests consensus and if met, modifies the world. 15:35:34 You can do that across machines as well. 15:36:03 "If X is 1, then set X to 2, otherwise tell me what X is." 15:36:48 That's all there is to it -- everything else is just implementation detail. 15:36:59 the challenge is that most processors only give you that operation for very weak values of X. 15:37:11 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:37:13 (and of "is" and "set") 15:37:20 These days they generally let you compare-and-swap words. 15:37:42 Using pointers you can get a fair way, although the ABA problem can be tricky to spot. 15:37:58 Anyhow, you can always implement it with a lock. :) 15:38:08 So do you need exposure of an atomic CAS to do lockfree? 15:38:24 You can do it in various ways. 15:38:37 phrixos [~clarkema@unaffiliated/phrixos] has joined #lisp 15:38:42 Guthur: I believe The Art of Multiprocessor Programming (Herlihy & Shavit) is on its way to become a classic. 15:38:42 That's just one of the faster and easier ways. 15:39:17 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:39:37 pkhuong: cheers, I'll have a look 15:39:39 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:39:46 it's also one of the theoretically more powerful building blocks, as opposed to only having atomic writes or exchanges, which don't easily (or at all) let you handle many threads. 15:39:53 Given that the lock is implemented with a CAS, calling it "lockfree" makes it sound more special that it really is. I'd argue that "lockfree" is more the concept of having the lock itself carry the data. 15:40:16 loke: No. 15:40:21 loke: lock-free is very well defined, and is not equivalent to "using CAS". 15:40:33 loke: What is important is that inside of using a lock, you are doing an atomic transaction. 15:40:47 Zhivago: Right. 15:40:55 loke: If that atomic transaction happens to be implemented with or without a lock is irrelevant. 15:41:06 But there is no lock of any extent involved. 15:41:21 Just an atomic and discrete operation. 15:41:59 Zhivago: Fair enough. Let me see if I understand what you're saying. You're saying that when you say "lock" you are specifically referring to something that blocks until the lock is released? 15:42:00 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 15:42:00 Or, to put it another way, there are no lock operations exposed. 15:42:13 That sounds like a lock to me. 15:42:18 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 15:42:21 Something that can be locked and unlocked. 15:42:29 Zhivago: OK, then we agree and I was just using bad terminology. 15:42:48 loke: the practical difference between lock-free and locked operations is that the lock-free operation will complete in a finite number of steps even if any or all of the concurrent threads is interrupted (or dies) 15:42:49 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:43:09 lock-free systems scale. 15:43:33 pkhuong: OK. Until just now I would have referred to that as blocking-free, but I may have to reconsider my terminonolgy :-) 15:44:13 pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:15 lock-free operations can block. 15:44:18 loke: it's still blocking. A lock-free operation can often end up spinning in the background for an arbitrary amount of time. 15:44:34 Lock-free and wait-free are different. 15:44:44 AMP looks very interesting, many thanks for mentioning it pkhuong 15:45:15 deadlock and livelock avoidance are different issues. 15:46:33 Think of a lock free operation as (a) building a relevant world model, (b) dispatching an agent with that model and a plan of action, (c) having the agent check that the model is accurate, and if so carrying out the plan, otherwise reporting the new state of affairs. 15:47:17 HG` [~HG@p5DC0546D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:47:24 So you can see how it can operate in a distributed environment without difficulty. 15:47:49 Kruppe [~user@d67-193-142-95.home3.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:12 And you can see how you could extend it with contingency plans. 15:49:36 spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-10-76.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:50:00 -!- spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-10-76.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 15:50:58 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:51:05 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 15:52:26 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:55:08 -!- mal__ [~mal@www2.wimmekes.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:55:14 mal__ [~mal@www2.wimmekes.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:32 skeptical_p [~rononovsk@bzq-79-177-185-173.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:56:04 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 15:57:39 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.207.106] has joined #lisp 15:57:58 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:58:19 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:01:00 -!- Guthur [c743cb8c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.140] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:01:50 sacho [~sacho@82.137.67.126] has joined #lisp 16:04:09 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:05:45 prljavi_hari [~h@dh207-26-144.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 16:07:31 Is it possible to program in Emacs or Lispworks on a smartphone ? 16:07:37 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:08:12 not sure you'd want to, unless you had one of those docking smartphones 16:08:18 Given hundreds of megs of ram, I don't see why not. 16:08:47 even without hundreds of megs, you can always run it remotely 16:08:48 prljavi_hari: ecl can compile to iOS, IIRC. 16:09:06 prljavi_hari: there are several schemes (two) and a BASIC working on iOS. 16:09:29 prljavi_hari: therefore there should be no impediment to implement a CL, or emacs, on iOS. 16:09:43 Although iOS is probably not the long term horse to bet on. 16:09:51 Yes, probably not. 16:09:54 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@pD9E812AC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:09:59 You might still be able to make some money on iOS thought. 16:10:06 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-158-113.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:11:47 pjb: one impediment; non-jailbroken iOS devices can only run signed code 16:11:49 prljavi_hari: webos should work as well. You may even be able to target both platforms at once 16:12:04 so JIT or machine code produced at runtime will not work 16:12:28 madnificent: webos runs javascript apps only, AFAICT. have fun writing your lisp in js I guess (: 16:12:47 antifuchs: no, you can run C as well :) 16:12:51 ah, cool (: 16:13:02 antifuchs: Palm/HP is remarkably open with respect to the devices 16:13:24 Do you have some suggestions on smartphones for that ? I have Samsung s5230, I can't find out which OS it uses ? 16:13:27 webos sounds more and more attractive to me. hope they fixed the development barriers that jwz wrote about a while back. 16:13:39 *madnificent* has verified CCL to run on WebOS, didn't take long to test 16:13:40 anyway. this is hardly the place for smartphone advice (: 16:13:49 antifuchs: they fixed the main one (the weird licensing stuff) 16:13:51 antifuchs: which development barriers? 16:14:05 -!- m__h__ [~m@kwlan1.uoks.uj.edu.pl] has left #lisp 16:14:22 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:14:23 rsynnott: signed coded didn't prevent me to buy two scheme implementations and one BASIC for my iPad. 16:14:42 kpreid [~kpreid@nat/google/x-sxkwmbxeitzvcnei] has joined #lisp 16:14:44 pjb: they're interpreters, I assume 16:14:45 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@pD9E812AC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:14:58 or non-JITing bytecode VMs 16:14:59 They're implementations. 16:14:59 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:15:07 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 16:15:14 *rsynnott* was just pointing out the major limitation 16:15:23 rsynnott: but they're in the "Education" category, if that's what you mean. 16:15:34 There's no "Programming Tool" category amongst iOS software. 16:15:43 madnificent: http://www.jwz.org/blog/2009/10/dear-palm-its-just-not-working-out/ 16:15:49 they even sent me a complete, unlocked, Pre2 to develop on, for free! Besides that they aren't suing people for what's normally called rooting (but is completely allowed, supported and rediculously simple) and are really doing their best to support others. 16:15:58 felideon [~felideon@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:08 rsynnott: right, the native code compilers must be disabled. 16:16:21 madnificent: no phone manufacturer has ever sued anyone for jailbreaking/rooting/whatever, as far as I know 16:16:37 games console manufacturers do occasionally 16:16:47 This is indeed untasty. My bet is that it's unsustainable, and eventually iOS will have to be a true computer OS, or will disappear. Since MacOSX is evolving into iOS, I think the former will happen. 16:17:45 rsynnott: htc has IIRC 16:17:48 pjb: it's there as a security measure at the moment, to avoid the hypothetical exploit where an otherwise innocent app downloads a zero day exploit and runs it to take control of the device 16:18:01 (there's a proof of concept of that for Android) 16:18:07 francogrex [~user@109.130.66.129] has joined #lisp 16:18:36 jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-69.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:18:41 also, I haven't had the bad experience of jwz myself on the pre- though it could've been faster. I did overclock my Pre- (why not?). The Pre2 is a lot faster though. 16:18:54 Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@1807ds2-noe.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 16:19:52 madnificent: I'm eagerly awaiting their new phones / webos. if only trying them out wasn't a multi-year/several-hundred-dollar commitment 16:20:01 I could get an html form to be evaluated by CL using query_string environmental variable and cl shell script.. But can cl be embedded in html like php (example or something like that? 16:20:14 antifuchs: the veer is out :) 16:20:37 antifuchs: and it needn't be. As I said, after starting the development of my app, they sent me a /free/ pre2 16:20:52 francogrex: sure. 16:20:52 limetree [~simon@c-23e8e155.1226-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:20:58 huh (: 16:21:44 it certainly has its flaws, but to be fair... they've come a long way 16:22:37 *stassats* mumbles "i don't need no mobile apps in the basement" 16:22:37 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:22:37 example? 16:23:21 I'd like to do CL development on it, but the integration with their libraries (javascript) isn't as nice as one might hope. It is possible to connect between JS and C (ergo lisp), the connection just isn't that fast 16:23:52 well, the bad things (for me) are that the devices are becoming less magical and more corporate. Yet still, they're decent imho 16:24:44 which devices ? 16:24:51 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 16:25:00 besides that there's the move to Enyo (which only matters if you're devving js, I guess), but it does require us to rewrite the applications if we want to support the touchpad and such. However, those new devices have virtually 0 market share at the moment (well, webos 3.0 is only available under an nda at the moment) 16:25:23 homie: pre2 at least. I haven't touched the pre3, nor the veer yet. It will likely take a while 16:25:39 i don't get no part! 16:25:49 homie: you don't get no what? 16:25:52 what is the talk about phones ? 16:26:00 homie: CL + Smartphone :) 16:26:04 ah 16:26:22 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:26:30 well, the only app i have on my phone is google-maps 16:26:30 You can run ECL on Android... 16:26:32 lol 16:26:42 enthymeme [~kraken@96.31.242.194] has joined #lisp 16:26:46 and it works even 16:27:01 homie: you have a blackberry? 16:27:23 well, i wished the phone screen was bigger, no ericson 16:27:25 though I think that CL + WebOS could be a good combination. Given that the platform is so open and Palm/HP is supportive of initiatives, it could be something cool to run on. I personally find the user experience vastly superior to android, so I'm not moving back for a long time. 16:27:32 homie: which one? 16:27:39 ki810 or so 16:27:47 comatose_kid [~comatose_@99-123-6-173.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:50 CL + MeeGo seems like a more natural fit 16:28:04 MeeGo + smartphone seems less natural :) 16:28:04 -!- comatose_kid [~comatose_@99-123-6-173.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:28:09 dlowe: are there any mego devices out there? 16:28:18 loke: just one 16:28:28 And ECL+Android actually exists. 16:28:37 kawascheme works well on android, too 16:28:46 comatose_kid [~comatose_@99-123-6-173.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:47 dlowe: yeah, but scheme sucks 16:28:48 also, running CL on the pre- literally amounted to copying the image and running it... 16:29:04 loke: that's, like, your opinion man 16:29:12 dlowe: Yes. 16:29:22 dlowe: But I'm correct 16:29:43 no, you're not. let's fight 16:29:51 ericbb's lisp (for ilge iirc) run's on webos. That's a scheme-like 16:30:02 stassats: Yeah, let's 16:30:14 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@h44n2c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:30:27 stassats: Although I'm pretty sure you agree with me on that one... :-) 16:31:15 that scheme sucks? no, i don't agree, i use programs i wrote in it every day 16:31:48 stassats: Oh come on. WHat would the world be like if out opinions were not binary? 16:32:04 out=our 16:33:10 good thing that they aren't 16:33:27 stassats: no it's not! 16:33:38 whatever 16:33:49 misza222 [~misza@87.114.72.29] has joined #lisp 16:33:59 stassats: Hey, you were the one who said we should fight 16:34:12 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@pD9E812AC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:34:21 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:34:28 either case, if anyone wants to try and write CL apps for webos, be sure to let me know. I may join in on the fun and help with the first steps 16:34:29 -!- misza222 [~misza@87.114.72.29] has quit [Client Quit] 16:35:09 -!- prljavi_hari [~h@dh207-26-144.xnet.hr] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:36:15 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl15-230-254.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 16:36:36 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 16:36:42 timjstewart1 [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 16:36:46 -!- Kruppe [~user@d67-193-142-95.home3.cgocable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:37:08 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.66.129] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:38:06 gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-17-206-5.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:41 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-155-193-92.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:40:44 workthrick: I'd love to see a backtrace the next time it happens. 16:41:40 does bt:with-lock-held wait ? 16:41:51 kiuma: I would assume so. 16:41:56 thx 16:42:05 (what else should it do if the lock is taken?) 16:42:42 pick it 16:42:51 antifuchs: it could error out as well. But I wasn't surprised by it 3 months ago, so it should be what you said. 16:42:55 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 16:43:11 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.18.83.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:45:01 -!- comatose_kid [~comatose_@99-123-6-173.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:46:56 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-nhpbpoploulpidcp] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:47:49 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@pD9E812AC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:48:03 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:48:04 antifuchs: it could skip the body ;) 16:48:04 antifuchs: it could skip the body ;) 16:48:04 asd 16:48:13 sorry. 16:48:14 -!- timjstewart1 [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:48:59 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 16:49:32 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 16:50:09 pkhuong: haha, critical section avoidance 16:50:31 -!- derekv [~derekv@c-68-62-78-203.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:51:06 I'm sure I can find a decent-sounding spec to which that behaviour would comply 16:54:34 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip68-231-47-70.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:55:55 -!- Davsebamse [~davse@94.127.49.1] has quit [Quit: Davsebamse] 16:57:13 -!- workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:59:59 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@nat/google/x-sxkwmbxeitzvcnei] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:00:22 kpreid [~kpreid@nat/google/x-uuyyuvkhsimjnjla] has joined #lisp 17:00:44 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@nat/google/x-uuyyuvkhsimjnjla] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:01:07 kpreid [~kpreid@nat/google/x-phdrvfbisljdlbii] has joined #lisp 17:01:37 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 17:01:37 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing 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[~add^_^@h9n5c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 17:29:40 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:35:31 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:35:51 -!- ocharles [u411@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lnysfgganrmtdkij] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:35:51 -!- jna [u473@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-aihzatkvdcwxseiz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:36:33 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:37:12 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:37:34 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.126.156] has joined #lisp 17:38:10 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 17:38:40 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.207.106] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:38:41 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 17:38:45 -!- operative [~null@70.234.134.35] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:39:11 MoALTz [~no@92.18.83.227] has joined #lisp 17:40:37 -!- wetnosed [~kai@e179018097.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 17:40:49 wetnosed [~kai@e179018097.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:41:44 operative [~null@adsl-70-234-134-35.dsl.tul2ok.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:25 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.126.156] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 17:45:45 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:46:01 steevy [~steevy@95-89-223-125-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 17:46:10 oh gods, /me encounters #n# usage in cl-typesetting 17:46:17 -!- steevy [~steevy@95-89-223-125-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Client Quit] 17:46:30 zmv [c885c40e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.200.133.196.14] has joined #lisp 17:46:48 And? 17:46:55 -!- zmv [c885c40e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.200.133.196.14] has left #lisp 17:46:58 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 17:47:22 and it further reduces my impression of its code quality 17:47:52 zmv [c885c40e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.200.133.196.14] has joined #lisp 17:48:52 and it can be cleanly replaced by a separate function or a flet 17:48:59 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 17:49:24 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has joined #lisp 17:49:37 here's the code https://github.com/slyrus/cl-typesetting/blob/master/tables.lisp#L193 17:50:58 this can't be the nicest way to code that function. seriously. 17:51:05 Bah! It's funny but mostly harmless. 17:51:21 Of course not, you can always define a flet and inline it. 17:51:42 pjb: indeed, you can't make it any less intelligible 17:52:54 that is quite a function! 17:54:06 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:54:37 Hi Xach, question regarding ZS3, zs3:copy-object is calling native amazon copy-object ? 17:54:49 i was not aware that they added this 17:55:28 milanj: it is. 17:55:35 milanj: they did. 17:57:08 and cl-typesetting has many such functions 17:58:11 stassats: the dark side of Just Do It, perhaps 17:58:54 doesn't facilitate "Come Back And Do Some More" 17:58:59 thanks Xach, one more thing, i need to copy and delete hundred of milions objects from s3, you have some advice since i'm going to use your library 17:59:01 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:59:23 wow. massive loop of doom 17:59:55 hmm, it's working on doom ? 18:00:09 well, xml should be light on s3 .. i hope 18:00:47 milanj: no, I meant that if you look at the loop long enough, the loop looks into you 18:01:51 ahh yes, i though of dom 18:02:36 ocharles [u411@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lhficlpllrnihaky] has joined #lisp 18:02:40 milanj: i don't have any advice, sorry. the per-request charge is small but the total charge will be big if you have hundreds of millions of requests to make! 18:04:35 yes, i know that it will take time, i just dont want to add other overhead since original task is time consuming 18:04:43 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:05:22 *Xach* was thinking of the cost in dollars, not minutes 18:06:07 dollars, shmollars! it's not like they're backed by gold or anything. 18:06:49 cl-bitcoin? 18:06:53 hah, well, that is point of doing this in first place 18:07:01 cut costs 18:07:18 anyway, thanks for replay 18:07:28 milanj: i thought of some advice! 18:07:47 milanj: if you have lots of objects, use query-bucket instead of all-keys. 18:08:02 the former lets you page through results. 18:08:26 thanks, will check 18:10:05 -!- mpereira [~mpereira@ec2-50-16-8-218.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:10:26 mpereira [~mpereira@ec2-50-16-8-218.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 18:10:42 carlocci [~nes@93.37.207.192] has joined #lisp 18:11:19 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:12:25 hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 18:12:25 -!- Yuzu- [~yuzuchan@p5052-ipad406osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:13:28 i would like to parse SQL-expressions (they are strings). afaik, there's no lisp library to do this directly, so is cl-yacc the answer i am looking for? 18:13:36 argiopeweb [~elliot@155.31.46.237] has joined #lisp 18:13:45 -!- iori [~iori@110-133-45-54.rev.home.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:14:07 hypno: could be 18:14:35 Kneferilis [5d6d8465@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.109.132.101] has joined #lisp 18:14:48 Hello. I created this platform: http://sourceforge.net/projects/ahkdemoplatform/ Now, I want to built a full fledged application that uses the platform's features but I haven't came up with an idea of what to built, any ideas? 18:14:56 Xach: i really don't know myself. i suppose i could write a parser myself, but i want to support a large subset of sql. 18:15:11 or some other parser generator (like one of the monadic parser frameworks, or PEG libraries) 18:15:15 I know, you guys, can do a lot of cool programs with lisp, so I thought you could help me here 18:15:25 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.18.83.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:16:01 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.178.198.167] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:16:25 hypno: My impression is that each SQL system supports its own variation on the standard sql syntax. 18:16:37 pkhuong: hmm. i didnt know about PEG. i'll look into it, thanks. 18:17:01 Kneferilis: maybe you could make a description of why anyone would use the project. 18:17:05 toasty [~toasty@unaffiliated/toasty] has joined #lisp 18:17:11 -!- toasty [~toasty@unaffiliated/toasty] has left #lisp 18:17:32 Xach: a description? 18:17:46 Xach: yeah, that is true. i think i can get access to the BNF though, but i have no experience with lexers/parser, etc. Splitting strings myself is probably NIH-ish and stupid. 18:18:00 any quick way to do string-manipulation in lisp? 18:18:07 mainly regexp I guess :\ 18:18:29 Xach: I mention the platform's features at: http://sourceforge.net/projects/ahkdemoplatform/ 18:18:32 Landr: cl-ppcre is an easy way to do regular expression stuff in CL. 18:18:37 but full regexp, as in: e = s/[[*]]/ should give me anything between the [[ and ]] 18:18:38 hmm 18:18:40 *Landr* looks 18:19:02 Kneferilis: I'm afraid that doesn't explain to me why I or anyone else should use it. 18:20:12 macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.A328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 18:22:46 -!- Liera [~Liera@113.172.38.123] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:23:10 gor[e] [~svr@gw2.masterhost.ru] has joined #lisp 18:23:30 Landr: what are you actually trying to do? 18:24:19 make a simple wiki syntax, as in: the user writes a bunch of text with custom markup, and then it's transformed into normal html 18:24:47 but i'm thinking it'd be easier if i just keep the raw text, and have the user transform it to full syntax through javascript 18:24:54 saves server time :> 18:25:09 s/syntax/html 18:25:44 -!- zmv [c885c40e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.200.133.196.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:26:05 hypno: I found reading src/backend/parser/gram.y in postgresql pretty interesting. 18:26:14 Landr: Graceful degradation? You could cache transformed output. 18:26:32 i could what now with the who where? 18:26:44 oh, i think i know what you mean 18:27:07 well, i'm using hunchentoot, and the pages will be stored as a huge string in a hash table (so ht-simple-ajax can get them) 18:27:24 that sounds awfully specific 18:27:30 actually i guess i'm trying to remake tiddlywiki in lisp :\ 18:28:06 I don't understand. Tiddlywiki is all client side. 18:28:08 for that you'd have to get lisp running in the browser (: 18:28:51 mmmyes... well, i want the abilities of tiddlywiki, but... in lisp... something something 18:29:19 actually i have no idea what i'm doing anymore :( the project has spun out of control, across feature creep, and into "just what is it i'm trying to do here?" land 18:30:00 lanthan [~ze@p54B7F6C6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:11 If you fail, blame Lisp. 18:31:17 blame us! 18:31:28 If you win, credit Lisp, but explain that Common Lisp is a crappy lisp. 18:31:28 lisp made us foaming-at-the-mouth monsters! 18:32:01 i don't blame lisp at all :> 18:32:06 reminds me. where's my pint of newbie blood 18:32:11 I blame Lisp. 18:32:20 Xach: hmm. yeah, that's a good example, thanks. 18:32:37 -!- poindont` [~user@cloudbovina.bovinasancta.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:32:46 heh, i didn't notice it on the first time through, but right in the header comment: 18:32:51 * Andrew Yu Oct, 1994 lispy code conversion 18:33:03 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 18:33:27 o.O? 18:34:34 Xach: ah, hah, lol! 18:35:21 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-186-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:35:24 stis [~stis@host-95-198-37-15.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 18:35:55 given that postgresql was written in lisp initially, that's not really surprising 18:38:08 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-4356673a.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:38:10 i bet they blame lisp for the rewrite. ;) 18:39:07 they do, actually, they were complaining on its memory usage 18:39:42 (that was in the 80s) 18:39:48 -!- Areil [~user@113.172.38.123] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:42:25 funny, coming from the database that will gladly gobble up hundreds of gigabytes of ram (-: 18:42:41 (which could describe any database of course) 18:43:11 i believe that was the reason against lisp, it consumed too much memory not leaving enough for the data itself 18:43:53 eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 18:44:00 so it goes 18:45:58 fgump [~fgump__@188.74.82.177] has joined #lisp 18:47:43 -!- silenius [~silenus@p4FC23EE7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:48:01 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-186-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:52:07 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 18:52:42 HG`` [~HG@p579F75A1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:04 -!- Kajtek_ is now known as Kajtek 18:55:31 -!- ramus [~ramus@99.44.154.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:55:50 -!- HG` [~HG@p5DC0546D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:56:50 ramus [~ramus@adsl-99-23-148-155.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:45 -!- leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 18:58:51 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@81.193.34.166] has joined #lisp 18:59:25 -!- skeptical_p [~rononovsk@bzq-79-177-185-173.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:05:00 oudeis [~oudeis@82.166.248.14] has joined #lisp 19:05:05 nixfreak1 [~Aaron.Mei@mailserver.dayport.com] has joined #lisp 19:05:59 -!- cbp [~Cesar@189.139.219.96] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:09:12 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-186-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:09:53 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 19:12:41 skeptical_p [~rononovsk@bzq-79-182-185-187.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:37 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 19:16:49 Davsebamse [~davse@94.127.49.1] has joined #lisp 19:17:41 _6502_ [5e24fd14@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.253.20] has joined #lisp 19:17:50 <_6502_> yo 19:18:48 Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:20:47 francogrex [~user@109.130.66.129] has joined #lisp 19:21:34 cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 19:22:26 -!- cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 19:22:43 I created a short example on how to use CGI with CL here: http://francoatgrex.tripod.com/ 19:23:38 -!- argiopeweb [~elliot@155.31.46.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:24:14 is it "don't"? 19:24:31 ? what don't 19:25:06 -!- ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.53.12] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:25:37 "don't use CGI with CL" 19:25:37 *_6502_* hates popups 19:26:01 well if it works and it's easy why not try for someone curious 19:26:36 CGI. Wow. How very 1997 19:27:07 lol. it's for very basic stuff, more fun than anything serious 19:27:32 tripod still exists? 19:27:41 i don't believe that it's easier than hunchentoot 19:28:01 <_6502_> it exists just as a popup pusher 19:28:22 good night 19:28:27 -!- Kneferilis [5d6d8465@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.109.132.101] has left #lisp 19:28:41 <_6502_> stassats: hunchentoot was not trivial to install (i had to rebuild my sbcl) 19:28:59 not esaier than hunchentoot. but for windows hunchentoot works ony with sbcl; so cgi is an alternative 19:29:19 s/ony/only 19:30:20 <_6502_> stassats: i don't remember the details but some prerequisite was not working right with my "old" version so I asked help here and you guys helped me rebuilding the whole sbcl from sources 19:30:26 francogrex: i don't think that you're right in regards to hunchentoot on windows 19:30:29 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:30:40 I just installed and ran hunchentoot on windows ccl in 47 seconds. 19:30:43 Works nicely. 19:30:54 The only hangup I had: (pushnew :hunchentoot-no-ssl *features*) first. 19:31:10 hunchentoot is really strange 19:31:12 -!- aleron [~brad@75.201.249.148] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:31:14 _6502_: SBCL is expected to be rebuilt from sources 19:31:25 maybe it's because i'm used to configuring stuff through text files, not... you know, directly as a program 19:31:27 (if you want threads) 19:31:44 (on some platforms) 19:32:12 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:32:27 ok, didn't know about ccl, ecl wasn't working when I tried. Anyway I use hunchentoot with sbcl on windows and works fine. 19:32:39 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:32:46 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 19:32:46 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:32:57 <_6502_> stassats: i was not expecting to rebuild a compiler just to be able to develop some active web page... it's just the standard problem with lisp libraries... they "almost work" out of the box, nothing really works immediately 19:33:16 _6502_, you're obviously not using the right pop blocker technology, hehe 19:33:21 I see no popup 19:33:24 sorry, but you're wrong 19:33:26 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has left #lisp 19:33:44 <_6502_> and xach is wrong too 19:33:45 it has absolutely nothing to do with hunchentoot 19:34:17 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 19:34:21 stassats: what, the fact about ecl? 19:34:56 francogrex: don't try to confuse me by mixing the subject! 19:35:09 i was talking about rebuilding SBCL with threads 19:35:12 <_6502_> stassats: s/he had to mess with disabling ssh support just for having fun 19:35:14 ah 19:35:25 ssl, not ssh 19:35:33 <_6502_> sorry, ssl 19:35:39 _6502_, and that again is not to do with hunchentoot 19:35:54 a description of why anyone would use the project. 19:36:09 gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-17-206-5.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:37 _6502_: it has an option of working without ssl libraries present, and using such an option isn't called "messing" 19:36:50 <_6502_> guthur: not with hunchentoot, I agree. It's how lisp works.... (well... "almost works") 19:37:12 The real problem with CL is the people who complain about it that have no clue what they're talking about! 19:37:14 sn't called "messing" 19:37:14 22:36 _6502_$ guthur: not with hunchentoot, I agree. It's how lisp works.... (well... "almost works") 19:37:17 this is going nowhere. 19:37:18 argh 19:37:25 sorry about these mispastes 19:37:37 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@82.166.248.14] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:37:47 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 19:38:00 pkhuong: that statement pretty much describes lisp (in the good way) 19:38:02 <_6502_> stassats: if you try you don't get a nice dialog box opening and saying "Sorry, Apparently some SSL libraries are missing. Do you want to download them too right now or should I proceed without SSL support ?" 19:38:09 sykopomp: no, no, the real problem are people who complain about it and don't provide a paycheck! 19:38:27 _6502_: it's not supposed to be idiot-proof 19:38:27 dcorking [~dcorking@82.152.210.11] has joined #lisp 19:38:29 <_6502_> stassats: and if you do get that prompt and say "Yes, please download them" you just get a 404 crash 19:38:39 <_6502_> this is the lisp way 19:39:12 Is there a native Lisp SSL socket implementation? 19:39:16 <_6502_> stassats: yes... I completely agree. And I'm not even saying this is a bad thing. 19:39:24 ecraven: no 19:39:28 stassats: I like paychecks! 19:39:40 which library (used to) contain the rgba class ? (I seem to have lost it from sbcl on an ubuntu upgrade) 19:40:42 sykopomp: who doesn't? 19:41:02 _6502_: wrong about what? 19:42:35 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-149-15.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:39 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.65.209.45] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:42:47 Xach, I think it was the fact you had to turn off SSL, which meant that hunchentoot was some how only 'almost working' 19:43:32 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-65-209-45.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:33 <_6502_> xach: about not being idiot proof. It's something that is quite evident in my opinion (compared for example to python)... I'm not sure if being idiot proof (e.g. with a good central repository for libraries instead of having to dance around 404 errors and a gajillion of different SCCSs and half-backed dead projects) would actually really increase lisp popularity 19:43:45 Annnyway... look where we arrived from me providing a simple example for the curious to questioning the meaning of the universe! what a shame 19:43:59 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:44:10 francogrex: and you're the one to blame! shame on you! 19:44:25 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@ip72-200-123-53.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:44:28 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-149-15.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 19:44:29 <_6502_> he's to blame for popups :-) 19:44:29 _6502_, it took me longer to get cx_oracle working on debian that it did to get clsql-oracle 19:44:30 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@ip72-200-123-53.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:44:30 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 19:44:31 anyone using Sergio Garcia's beautiful torta these days? http://wiki.freaks-unidos.net/torta 19:44:34 ...on windows 19:45:00 cx_oracle is a python lib 19:45:25 maybe. hence I leave for a while 19:45:27 Guthur: don't confuse us with your silly facts! 19:45:28 <_6502_> most python library can be installed without even touching the keyboard 19:45:32 <_6502_> libraries 19:45:42 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.66.129] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:45:43 6502, I thought the new world order involved using QuickLisp to resolve that problem. 19:45:46 awesome. I want telepathic development here as well. 19:45:53 lol 19:46:01 _6502_: I didn't say anything about idiot proof. 19:46:08 I was thinking it might be some of that need motion detect tech 19:46:17 need/new 19:48:03 <_6502_> xach: if you mean about "and xach is wrong too" was about stassats comment that it was me doing something wrong for not being able to just use hunchentoot instead of having to mess with it just for installation (actually I had to mess with sbcl that was too old for some of the prerequisites) 19:48:29 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-149-15.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:48:33 <_6502_> xach: so I said that probably even you were wrong given that you had to mess with SSL support 19:48:46 _6502_: I don't understand what you're trying to say, sorry. 19:48:54 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-149-15.as43234.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:49:10 Xach, he's saying that it didn't work out of the box for you even. 19:49:16 Ok? 19:49:26 There was fiddling involved. =shrug= Just translating. 19:49:46 -!- HG`` [~HG@p579F75A1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: HG``] 19:49:54 j_king pasted "run length encoding" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122189 19:49:59 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-149-15.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:02 I think it's preferable to using ecl to run cl cgi scripts on windows, even if it has flaws in the setup process. 19:50:32 I wonder how hard an SSL library would be 19:50:41 actually for the record, I have ran Hunchentoot on windows without turning of SSL 19:50:47 off* 19:51:30 j_king: http://groups.google.com/groups/search?q=group%3Acomp.lang.lisp+defun+compress has some previous discussion on the topic, too. 19:51:32 admittedly I don't think I used HTTPS, but either way 19:51:58 I'm using CCL, Windows XP, and Hunchentoot from quicklisp. 19:52:19 I was thinking the other day about creating a hunchentoot wrapper project that does nothing but add :hunchentoot-no-ssl to features before loading hunchentoot. 19:53:18 -!- stis [~stis@host-95-198-37-15.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:53:45 _6502_: What was I wrong about? 19:54:14 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@pD9E812AC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:55:11 *dcorking* mourns the apparent bitrot in torta, and fires up filelight instead 19:55:32 *Xach* forgot about torta/gordon! 19:55:42 Xach: Looks like most people have copied the example from ANSI CL. I was wondering if I could write a shorter version in the Little Schemer/Lisper style. 19:55:47 thanks. 19:56:17 some interesting approaches turn up 19:57:16 ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.68.185] has joined #lisp 19:57:58 Xach, I only run torta/gordon when my disk gets full - I last ran it in 2009 and it looks like intervening upgrades broke it :( 19:58:46 *dcorking* recompiled but still got the missing class 19:58:50 oh? seems to build fine here 19:59:04 How can I control the external-format of the stdio streams to a sb-ext:run-program launched process? 19:59:17 *Xach* adds torta, gordon to quicklisp 19:59:26 <_6502_> xach: nothing. My fault instead was that I am an idiot (or to say it better I was used to idiot-proof setups) and given that hunchentoot setup is not idiot proof I needed help to be able to get it working... 19:59:30 the default is UTF-8, but the program is printout out latin-1, killing the decoder 20:00:10 _6502_: Ok. I think things could be better, and I'm trying to make them better. 20:00:15 Phoodus: you control it by specifying it 20:00:37 Xachless, a mythical figure carrying the world atop his vast shoulders. 20:00:38 I don't see a parameter for it 20:00:45 Xachlas* 20:00:46 I"m using :input :stream :output :stream 20:01:04 *Xach* shrugs 20:01:07 hehe 20:01:39 Phoodus: it's :external-format 20:02:01 not very intuitive, i got to say 20:02:38 ah, if it's there, it's missing from teh docs 20:03:30 dcorking: gordon/types.lisp has a (defstruct rgba ...) in it. 20:03:38 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@h9n5c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Quit: add^_] 20:03:46 and yeah, it's there in the implementation. thanks 20:04:26 josemanuel [~josemanue@149.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 20:04:31 Phoodus: and it's in the docs 20:04:35 LakatosI [557a1e03@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.122.30.3] has joined #lisp 20:04:45 -!- Davsebamse [~davse@94.127.49.1] has quit [Quit: Davsebamse] 20:04:49 Hey Guys 20:04:58 How costly are function calls in Common Lisp? 20:05:03 http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Running-external-programs.html ? 20:05:20 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-69.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:05:21 that's old documentation 20:05:25 LakatosI: depends on implementation 20:05:27 LakatosI: doesn't that depend on implementation in any language? 20:05:37 ^ 20:05:37 stassats: how nice 20:05:39 It does 20:05:44 but anyway, problem solved 20:05:45 I'm using sbcl 20:05:50 Phoodus: let me see if i have access to change it 20:06:39 From what I understand functional style is mostly about writing a bunch of functions and then combining them. 20:06:40 Xach - great - - I have SBCL 1.0.40.0.debian - you? 20:06:51 dcorking: 1.0.48.something from git 20:06:59 cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 20:07:08 Is the criticism that the great number of function calls stress the call stack? 20:07:11 LakatosI: that's an ordinary style 20:07:25 valid* 20:07:48 LakatosI: if you're living in 1970s, maybe 20:07:49 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053007058.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:07:52 LakatosI: It's not really different from OO in that regard; that's got deeply nested calls, too 20:08:18 Phoodus: and can have crazy lookups 20:08:43 Yeah 20:08:44 LakatosI: but given an implementation, you can always use disassemble to see exactly what goes on during a call 20:09:08 LakatosI: function calls are usually quite fast, though there can be more speed available through removing the need for boxing/unboxing etc. 20:09:12 -!- sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:09:19 and yes, CL:DISASSEMBLE is your friend :) 20:09:35 from what I've seen, the only overhead is to set the number of arguments being made to the call (a single immediate register load), and a single CALL instruction 20:09:47 Night-hacks [~nullpoint@95.38.52.69] has joined #lisp 20:09:51 I'm in this programming contest. I and a friend of my wrote a web app, my contribution being a simulated anealing lisp algorithm that calculates timetables 20:09:57 of course, doing apply etc is more complex 20:10:35 -!- Night-hacks [~nullpoint@95.38.52.69] has left #lisp 20:10:42 THe main critisism from the jury is that I used Lisp, and thus my pogram is slow 20:11:01 Xach, I evaluated the defstruct for rgba manually, but I still get "There is no class named RGBA" at line 39 of torta.lisp :( 20:11:01 simulated annealing is slow 20:11:03 LakatosI: you'll lose more to jitter on network than lisp 20:11:28 and your jury has no clue about Lisp :) 20:11:29 simulated anealing is slow, yeah 20:11:49 Mostly because of the crazy score function I'm using 20:12:00 Sure, the code is not really optimized 20:12:16 -!- misza222 [~misza@87.114.72.29] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:12:18 are you declaring optimizations? 20:12:21 I tried but ended up making it even slower :P 20:12:38 in sbcl, the notes it gives you really helps you hone in on what needs to be declared further 20:12:48 and keep hammering disassemble :) 20:13:02 How do I use disassemble more exactly? :D 20:13:07 LakatosI: you can ask the jury about use of Ruby... if he says it would be ok, tell him that Ruby is one of the slowest languages anywhre ;P 20:13:09 (disassemble #'my-func) 20:13:17 (disassemble #'your-function-name) 20:13:22 okay 20:13:31 and declaring optimization? 20:13:42 (declare (variable-name fixnum)) and stuff? 20:13:46 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey 20:13:46 also, profiling helps 20:13:51 (declaim (optimize (speed 3) (debug 0) ...)) etc 20:13:56 depending on scope 20:14:06 and you might save a bit by switching from alists and plists to hash tables 20:14:06 declare is for a local scope 20:14:26 You could also try to use a third party solver. 20:14:28 depending on what you are doing, of course 20:14:30 dcorking: weird 20:14:48 dcorking: did you evaluate it in the right package? 20:15:31 sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has joined #lisp 20:15:34 pkhuong, I don't know - the automatic evaluation was with the same asd scripts that I used years ago - when they worked fine, but ... 20:15:36 Xach: dunno if you saw, I was a very pleased Vecto user yesterday. 20:15:46 ... how do I set the context of a package manually? 20:15:47 -!- udzinari [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit:     ] 20:15:56 gigamonkey: I saw, I have trouble believing that's the real name of a thing. 20:16:07 dcorking: what is "context of a package"? 20:16:12 *dcorking* reads the asd scripts more carefully 20:16:13 gigamonkey: I also wondered if that thing is available as a glyph in some font, which would let you skip the svg bit... 20:16:49 Xach: there are fonts that support it 20:16:57 stassats, pkhuong asked me " did you evaluate it in the right package?" and the short answer is - I don't know 20:17:00 But you probably can't count on them being usable on the web. 20:17:21 gigamonkey: I mean, you could use zpb-ttf to get the curves, instead of parsing an xml file. 20:17:24 dcorking: *package* variable holds the current package 20:17:32 Xach: ah 20:17:41 Where can I find more info on declaim? 20:17:53 clhs declaim 20:17:54 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_declai.htm 20:18:03 Though I'd also need it in a legally accessible font. That SVG is public domain. 20:18:33 lanthan_ [~ze@p54B7F04A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:34 -!- lanthan [~ze@p54B7F6C6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:18:58 gigamonkey: true. 20:19:00 can't count on them being usable on the web. 20:19:05 *Xach* has legal access to a lot of fonts 20:19:12 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:36 But even if you have legal access to, say, print a book, you may not be allowed to use those fonts on the web. 20:19:43 *gigamonkey* is not a lawyer, of course. 20:19:56 LakatosI: also 20:19:58 clhs optimize 20:19:58 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_optimi.htm 20:20:28 zmv [~chatzilla@fw.lab.sp.cefetsp.br] has joined #lisp 20:20:34 Anyway, is there an easy path from a zpb-ttf parsed glyph to something you can feed to vecto? 20:20:52 gigamonkey: vecto:draw-string 20:22:12 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:22:21 I guess I was thinking of turning a glyph into a vecto program (made up of paths and curves) which one could then fiddle with. 20:22:36 Though for my needs yesterday draw-string would probably be sufficient. 20:23:16 I was also wondering how hard it would be to have an option in vecto to use 0,0-in-the-upper-left coordinate system. 20:24:02 Phoodus: single page manual is now up to date http://www.sbcl.org/manual/index.html#Running-external-programs 20:24:40 Um, could anyone give me an example of how to declare the type of a variable? 20:24:47 I'm completely lost here :( 20:24:49 (declare (type variable)) 20:25:29 And if I want to declare of type of more than 1 variable? 20:25:34 (declare (fixnum a b c)) 20:25:41 I see 20:25:42 ok 20:25:48 Thanks for clearing that up 20:25:53 (declare ((unsigned-byte 8) d e f)) 20:25:57 gotta watch the nesting 20:26:10 stassats, pkhuong - good call - I was doing my debugging in the CL-USER package - however - I evaluated the expressions in question in the correct packages - and I still get "There is no class named RGBA." :( 20:26:37 *dcorking* wonders of the semantics of packages have changed in the last 2 or 3 years 20:26:49 s/of/if/ 20:27:29 -!- ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.68.185] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:27:50 Is there a way to declare the types of a list when given as an argument? 20:27:53 many-pages-manual updating proves to be harder 20:28:03 /tmp/sbcl/doc/manual/sbcl/Method-sb_002dbsd_002dsockets_003asocket_002dmake_002dstream-_0028_0028socket-socket_0029-_0026key-input-output-_0028element_002dtype-_0027character_0029-_0028buffering-full_0029-_0028external_002dformat-default_0029-timeout-auto_002dclose-_0028serve_002devents-t_0029_0029.html: File name too long 20:28:32 <_6502_> is the imperative pattern using (do ((res nil)) ... -> (nreverse res)) considered worse than a recursive functional approach in CL ? 20:29:13 it's considered unneccesary in the presence of LOOP 20:29:35 Isn't nreverse fairly expensive? 20:29:50 reverse is more expensive 20:29:51 no 20:29:57 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 20:29:58 usage costs 0.5 20:30:00 nreverse reuses conses 20:30:13 It recycles... 20:30:14 oh, destructive, just reading that now 20:30:17 destructively :P 20:30:19 nreverse /is allowed/ to reuse conses 20:30:50 if you're concerned about performance, maybe don't do O(n) things in that place though (: 20:31:01 Phoodus: did you arrive at that manual page through google? 20:31:15 *dcorking* is just too stupid for filelight, and would really like torta working again. /me blows away torta/gordon and tries reinstalling from the net 20:31:29 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:31:48 stassats: yeah 20:31:52 <_6502_> i was thinking to that compress thing someone pasted some time ago... 20:32:00 is it disconnected from the main manual links? 20:32:09 Phoodus: i can't update it, because i can't generate it 20:32:17 I didn't see version numbers in the URL, so I took it as most recent 20:32:38 i can't find a way to it from sbcl.org 20:32:59 yeah, it's probably the result of a union from an old manual upload then 20:33:57 The html docs were recently switched from a gazillion separate page to one single one 20:34:20 i like gazillion pages 20:34:24 How can I capture the output of (time) in sbcl? 20:34:52 (with-output-to-string (*trace-output*) (time (sleep 1)))? 20:35:02 A, *trace-output*, was missing that. 20:35:05 thx 20:35:09 (not limited to SBCL) 20:35:13 uhm 20:35:28 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 20:35:39 antoszka: what do you want to do with the captured string? 20:36:36 printing sb-concurrency:queue in REPL leads to stack exhaust, queue is double linked list i assume, should have nicer representation though 20:36:47 Another question: Do I have to declare variables fixnum after they are defined? Or can I do this right at the beginning of the function? 20:36:50 stassats: No idea, that was a friend's question, I was just wondering how to do it. 20:37:15 stassats: He wanted to run some timing stats on a function probably. 20:37:22 -!- zmv [~chatzilla@fw.lab.sp.cefetsp.br] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6/20100115144158]] 20:37:23 A lot of my variables are calculated within the let declaration 20:37:58 guys, what would be the general 'approach' 20:38:02 argh sorry 20:38:09 general 'approach' 20:38:23 antoszka: if you want to limit yourself to sbcl, you can do better: (block nil (sb-ext:call-with-timing (lambda (&key bytes-consed &allow-other-keys) (return bytes-consed)) (lambda () (make-list 10000)))) => 163840 20:38:39 to writing an app for the terminal that has seemingly perpetual buffer that doesn't scroll off screen? 20:38:43 LakatosI: declarations can be placed in a number of places. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/s_declar.htm 20:38:44 stassats: Thanks. 20:38:52 how would that be done? 20:39:10 LakatosI: refer to each form listed in that page for where declarations can go. 20:39:26 holymoo: where does it scroll? 20:39:35 LakatosI: also, only bother putting declarations in where SBCL outputs optimization notes during compilation 20:39:47 do you mean some thine like "more" or "less"? 20:39:49 (you only get those if you've declared optimizations though) 20:40:08 ..only bother putting variable type declarations... 20:40:09 yes, I have declared 20:40:25 Phoodus: it also helps putting them where you know it's going to help 20:40:34 stassats: well as i'm going through the land of lisp book, the general output to terminal is standard terminal behaviour where the string output simply is appended to the previous via next line 20:40:47 because declarations are also assertions, and it may slow you down on type-checking 20:40:55 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-65-209-45.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:41:12 <_6502_> is (setf (if ...)) standard ? 20:41:14 -!- dcorking [~dcorking@82.152.210.11] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:41:25 _6502_: I don't think so, no. 20:41:35 i am curious how something like htop or emacs actually get a 'buffer' rendered that seems like a static display buffer .. just curious what the general idea is to display something like that 20:41:46 cmm [~cmm@109.65.209.45] has joined #lisp 20:42:03 they use terminal control sequences? 20:42:34 or simply using ncurses 20:42:38 googling, was not even sure what to searches 20:42:55 minion: cl-ncurses? 20:42:56 cl-ncurses: An interface to the ncurses and pdcurses console user interface libraries for Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/cl-ncurses 20:43:00 well ncurses must use a method as well ... i'm curious what it takes without the boilerplate done for you 20:43:09 Phoodus pasted "optimization macros" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122194 20:44:29 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:44:33 I use slow-op when I know I'm doing potential bignum math or whatever within an optimized context 20:45:07 you have a stray parenthesis! 20:45:22 ah, I uncommented a link I had temporarily commented out before I pasted 20:46:04 wait, that's not unbalanced; it just allows commenting out the optimize-file's body 20:46:24 so I can rebuild without any of those in effect 20:46:32 (yes, I should use a defvar or something) 20:46:58 atomx [~user@86.35.150.23] has joined #lisp 20:47:40 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 20:49:53 I am very confused right now. 20:50:04 I (declaim (optimize (speed 3) (debug 0))) at the beginning of my program 20:50:13 do a couple of type declarations 20:50:30 And now my program is like 50 times slower than before 20:51:00 <_6502_> isn't (safety 0) instead of (debug 0) ? 20:51:10 or both 20:51:12 (safety 0) would be useful too 20:51:17 I also set compilation-speed 0 in my macros 20:51:24 LakatosI: did you check out the disassembly? 20:51:32 antifuchs: useful for confusing? 20:52:10 <_6502_> some assembly required :-) 20:52:15 heh 20:52:18 i've never found debug 0 and compilation-speed 0 to produce any noticeable effect 20:52:56 In what would the assembly help? 20:53:15 in understanding what it's doing under the hood 20:54:15 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc12-cdif12-2-0-cust276.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:54:38 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:54:49 HET2 [~diman@2001:629:3200:95:218:f3ff:fe79:31db] has joined #lisp 20:54:51 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 20:54:54 gauge [~gauge@c-76-118-243-73.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:00 well there sure are lotf of NOP's 20:55:33 there are for alignment 20:56:22 besides that the code is significantly shorter than the previous version 20:56:50 most of the generic-+ and generic-- are still preserved, though 20:57:18 getting rid of them is a good thing for performance 20:57:45 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:58:45 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 20:58:51 but that's proving to be somewhat impossible 20:59:10 -!- hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp_] 20:59:14 What I don't understand however is why is my code slower than before? 20:59:41 are your variable type declarations just things like fixnums and struct/class types? 20:59:46 or do you have complex declarations? 20:59:46 LakatosI: maybe paste the code? it's hard to guess from "a coule of type declarations" 21:00:42 if you want the machine to use register-based adding / subtracting, (ldb (byte 32 0) (+ number other-number)) will give you the overflow-y version without decls, I believe 21:01:06 francogrex [~user@109.130.66.129] has joined #lisp 21:01:09 -!- ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:02:10 does alegro support that? 21:02:51 if you add declarations without (safety 0), it's very possible that you're injecting typechecking code 21:03:15 though that's just an educated guess 21:03:25 yes, declarations are assertions in sbcl 21:03:38 luke_ [~luke@2.103.111.162] has joined #lisp 21:03:47 LakatosI pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122196 21:04:50 you should probably keep preferences as floats instead of fixnums 21:04:51 you declared it float, but single-float would be a better type 21:04:52 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:05:27 and why do you use lists? 21:05:29 <_6502_> is each closed-over lexical allocated in a separate binding in sbcl e.g. in (let (x y z) (lambda () ...)) ? 21:05:42 and the last form is redundant, though the optimizer probably removes it anyway 21:06:12 (in terms of coercing to float, not in terms of returning the score) 21:06:36 fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-172-58.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 21:06:54 -!- milanj [~milanj_@79-101-138-223.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 21:07:12 Hi, can anyone reccomend any good lisp tutorials? 21:07:22 (when (/= (length user) 0) ...) => (when user ...) 21:07:27 minion: please tell luke_ about PCL 21:07:27 luke_: direct your attention towards PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 21:07:44 milanj [~milanj_@79-101-138-223.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 21:07:45 That's handy. : P 21:08:09 Thanks, I'll have a read. 21:08:10 -!- LakatosI [557a1e03@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.122.30.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:08:25 pkhuong pasted "Fun with l-t-v: a minimal packrat parsing framework (:" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122197 21:08:42 lakatosi [557a1e03@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.122.30.3] has joined #lisp 21:08:48 damn firefox crashed on me 21:08:53 did the paste get in? 21:09:05 minion: please tell lakatosi about logs 21:09:05 lakatosi: please look at logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 21:09:25 http://paste.lisp.org/display/122196 21:09:28 _6502_: it depends. On a lot of things. Closures are flat (so a vector containing the code and all the closer-ver bindings). 21:09:45 lakatosi: yes, it did get in, see logs for my comments on it 21:10:54 _6502_: however, since closures are flat, mutable bindings go through a mutable cell, so that the closure's vector point to a shared mutable cell. 21:11:52 <_6502_> pjhuong: ah... ok. So this gives O(1) access to closed over lexicals even from outer levels ... 21:12:03 _6502_: On top of that, the value itself may be heap-allocated. Finally, dynamic-extent changes that a bit, since stack-allocated closures can look directly in the right activation record. 21:12:50 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-172-58.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:13:07 yeah, the reason why I check the length of user and compare it to zero instead of just doing (when users ... ) is because Otherwise the compiler said he can't reach the code and never executed it 21:13:19 I have no idea why it does that 21:13:29 -!- sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:13:33 -!- barryfm [~barryfm@fl-71-51-64-129.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:13:55 lakatosi: because it's managed to prove that that variable is always the empty list at that point. i.e. there's a logic bug in your program. 21:14:49 <_6502_> but didn't manage to know that (length nil) is 0 :-) 21:14:58 The thing is that that variable always contains at least an empty list 21:15:12 And my program runs just fine 21:15:35 What software does minion run on (and is it available for other installations)? 21:16:18 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75551b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:16:24 -!- sonnym1 [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:16:33 antoszka: I think an old version is bundled with cl-irc. 21:16:37 antoszka: a version of minion is included with cl-irc. It's not what currently runs, which is unavailable last I heard. 21:16:42 ...meh 21:16:48 thx 21:17:02 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:18:05 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 21:18:29 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:18:48 *_6502_* just looked at (disassemble #'p2d-x) after (defstruct p2d x y) ... sure looks scary 21:20:04 _6502_: these accessors are almost never called as such, so they're implemented as generic closures. 21:20:39 I have an asm macro that generates a lambda and disassembles it 21:20:56 so (asm (p) (p2d-x p)) shows the real use 21:21:05 pjb pasted "disassemble" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122198 21:21:25 compare with (disassemble (lambda (p2d) (p2d-x p2d))), or even (disassemble (lambda (p2d) (declare (type p2d p2d)) (p2d-x p2d))). 21:21:25 _6502_: what are you talking about? the output of disassemble is limpid! 21:21:38 What implementation is that? 21:21:41 clisp 21:21:45 The best one. 21:21:47 pjb: and slow! 21:21:50 <_6502_> pjb: i was talking about SBCL 21:22:03 _6502_: use clisp instead! 21:23:25 _6502_: most of that is typechecking code; if you declare the type, the checks are executed in the prologue (which isn't shown by disassemble), so you can see what remains in the disassembly. 21:23:40 Phoodus pasted "sbcl disasm" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122199 21:23:55 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:25:10 <_6502_> phodus: that's exactly the same output with (disassemble (lambda (p) (p2d-x p))) ... 21:25:26 because that's what it is? 21:25:35 <_6502_> oh... ok 21:25:37 yep. my asm macro is just (disassemble (optimize-body (lambda ,@rest))) 21:26:07 <_6502_> this code is limpid :-) 21:26:24 <_6502_> calling SYSTEM::%STRUCTURE-REF is not ... 21:26:55 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:27:12 <_6502_> anyway clisp is not dog slow IMO 21:27:25 turtle slow? 21:27:51 <_6502_> nah... clisp -C is not horrible considering that's not native code 21:27:52 broken down reliant robin slow? 21:28:22 CLISP is perfectly fine for not doing giant CPU-bound computation 21:28:36 Phoodus: at least it doesn't tip over 21:28:38 <_6502_> armed bear seemed to me much slower 21:28:47 <_6502_> but i didn't test it much 21:28:51 it is slow 21:29:00 there are a number of bottlenecks to solve in that one 21:29:06 even though pieces of it are fast 21:30:06 like getting rid of java> 21:30:11 ? 21:30:21 <_6502_> heh 21:30:51 Java's fast, in terms of the VM itself. It just has some serious impedance mismatches with lisp 21:31:16 <_6502_> java is not slow... all the money that has been thrown at it actually got something 21:31:27 <_6502_> it sucks... but quickly 21:31:32 heh 21:32:13 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:32:18 nah, both JVM and MS CLR are quite fast, but Java the language can bring a grown man to tears 21:32:23 I haven't played with clojure yet, but I'm under the impression it's not very fast either 21:32:37 sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has joined #lisp 21:32:58 I don't think that's the focus of clojure either. 21:33:03 right 21:33:24 but I presume once it's matured a bit they'll start down that path. They just haven't reached tha point yet 21:33:35 Phoodus: Clojure generates inefficient code that JVM can't optimize right. CLR is actually a better target thanks to some changes in newer versions. 21:33:35 features first, speed next 21:34:00 didn't clojure introduce type declarations at some point to improve performance? 21:34:04 Phoodus: it will get some more speed if Java finally gets invokedynamic 21:34:53 or rather type hints 21:42:41 silenius [~silenus@p4FC23EE7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:00 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:44:28 -!- superflit [~superflit@97-122-97-231.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:50:23 -!- gjvc [~gjvc@beaujolais.extremis.net] has quit [Quit: :wq!] 21:50:40 superflit [~superflit@140.226.4.114] has joined #lisp 21:54:00 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:54:23 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 21:57:22 -!- milanj [~milanj_@79-101-138-223.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:57:23 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:57:48 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 21:59:36 -!- phrixos [~clarkema@unaffiliated/phrixos] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:00:13 timjstewart1 [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 22:00:26 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:01:55 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:03:39 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@149.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 22:03:40 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-186-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:05:07 -!- timjstewart1 [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:07:04 timjstewart1 [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 22:10:19 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-158-113.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:10:47 -!- felideon [~felideon@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:11:41 -!- lakatosi [557a1e03@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.122.30.3] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:12:24 <_6502_> sleeptime for me... l8r 22:12:30 -!- _6502_ [5e24fd14@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.253.20] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:14:04 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.194] has joined #lisp 22:14:24 silenius_ [~silenus@p549473D0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:42 -!- silenius [~silenus@p4FC23EE7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:16:38 -!- Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:16:57 -!- silenius_ is now known as silenius 22:17:11 lbc_ [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 22:20:03 -!- timjstewart1 [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:21:35 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.207.192] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 22:21:39 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 22:21:40 ok, in the slime debugger, I recall there was a way to print truncated things in full. What was that? I thought it was p 22:22:52 argiopeweb [~elliot@184.91.40.175] has joined #lisp 22:23:40 Hi can someone please test if they can see my CGI server: http://109.130.66.129/ 22:23:52 -!- lbc_ [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:24:32 either you have a very fancy CGI program, or i'm seeing a router set-up 22:24:42 francogrex: that looks like a modem config screen (: 22:24:50 oh ! 22:24:53 hell 22:24:57 *antifuchs* opens advanced settings, twiddles soem numbers 22:25:06 no no 22:25:20 antifuchs: you broke it! 22:25:22 -!- fgump [~fgump__@188.74.82.177] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:25:43 -!- ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:26:10 I didn't do anything! 22:26:27 (seriously. strict "no hax0ring" policy.) 22:26:50 stassats: since you're awake, what was the slime debugger command that lets me print/describe a value untruncated? 22:27:05 -!- elliottcable is now known as ec|detached 22:27:21 you can inspect it 22:27:33 Good morning everyone! 22:27:45 if you want to inspect the condition, then it's C 22:27:55 yeah, and that turns a string's useless printed expression into an unreadable one (: 22:28:29 -!- holymoo [~chatzilla@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:28:37 I distinctly remember a one-key binding that opens a new window with the value described / printed without length limits. hrm. 22:28:48 antifuchs: then you can press p to pprint it 22:28:58 oooh 22:29:05 ok, that was what I was missing. 22:29:13 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.66.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:29:21 there's P binding, but its function is gone somewhere 22:29:28 let me fix this 22:29:51 sweet words :D 22:30:49 first, to figure out where did it go and why 22:30:53 *Xach* hopes he didn't include a bad slime 22:31:10 Xach: it's gone for quite a long time 22:31:24 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@pD9E812AC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:31:29 *Xach* has to write about yesterday's dist update, which bumped up 3 months in slime time 22:31:57 there wasn't much of changes except for nikodemus's work on indentation 22:32:18 ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:34:26 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has left #lisp 22:36:35 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:36:46 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 22:40:36 lnostdal-android [~yaaic@46.66.141.153.tmi.telenormobil.no] has joined #lisp 22:41:04 -!- basho__ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-224-056.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:41:11 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 22:41:43 hrm, slime daily changelog update isn't working 22:41:59 *stassats* has the same feelings about common-lisp.net migration as about asdf2 22:42:19 blame cvs, not the hoster! 22:42:26 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A5712.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:42:37 whoever, except me 22:42:55 haha 22:43:06 -!- The_Fellow [~The_Fello@glida.mooo.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:43:28 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:44:15 but i can blame cvs twice, no problem 22:44:27 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.236.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:48:41 i got P fixed, jumping through hoops to get it into cvs 22:48:44 -!- wetnosed [~kai@e179018097.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 22:49:19 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:51:14 TomnyrKray [~TomnyrKra@242.Red-217-125-163.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:19 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 22:51:27 whee, thanks for that (: 22:52:09 ok, it's in, wait for it to appear in non-elite cvs 22:52:16 francogrex [~user@109.130.19.223] has joined #lisp 22:52:38 well, I fu**ed up there! 22:52:55 gave the world access to my router 22:52:59 *antifuchs* kicks off the slime sync 22:53:05 francogrex: someone broke your internet? 22:53:32 no, they just removed some TCPs for emule and others 22:53:48 it is sanc. 22:53:50 anyway, it's entirely my stupidity 22:54:10 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-139-181.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:21 -!- sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:54:26 was actually glad I opened port 80 so that my PC would become a server 22:54:27 *stassats* only looked up mac address to see who's the manufacturer, turned out SAGEM COMMUNICATION 22:54:58 SAGEM??? doesn't ring any bells 22:56:15 i guess you have it re-branded by the provider 22:56:37 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.199] has joined #lisp 22:56:41 they make extremely cheap cell phones which I've only ever encountered in france. 22:56:51 Italy too 22:56:59 Fade: not only in france, though recently there weren't many in Poland 22:57:08 well belgium here, so it's plauisible 22:57:33 -!- TomnyrKray [~TomnyrKra@242.Red-217-125-163.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:57:50 btw, how reliable is the news that ILC 2012 is in Kyoto? 22:58:08 p_l|backup: that is what the ALU has announced 22:58:14 p_l|backup: no date has been set yet 22:58:18 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:58:54 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 23:00:13 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-33-40-18.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: When there's nothing left to burn you have to set yourself on fire.] 23:00:54 that's also what I heard 23:01:10 ... okay, I'm so going to try to get funding for that one 23:01:15 *Xach* ain't going to kyoto 23:01:24 *p_l|backup* hopes that HackFwd deal will go through 23:01:33 Xach: )-: 23:01:45 Xach: why not? 23:02:08 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:02:48 time, money 23:02:49 Xach: release quicklisp 1.0 with paid subscriptions, use revenues for a trip to Kyoto 23:03:08 If I had paid subscriptions, I would buy a solid gold ipad case, not an airplane ticket. 23:03:32 doesn't sound mutually exclusive to me 23:03:39 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-33-40-18.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:03:49 timjstewart1 [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 23:03:51 you could pay for a solid gold airplane case with ql paid subscriptions! 23:04:24 yeah, a miniature one :P 23:05:11 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:05:28 i'd buy gold, without an ipad 23:06:02 neither run SBCL, but without an ipad it should be cheaper 23:06:36 *p_l|backup* looks at his "planned expenses report" and sees an ipad2, iphone4, two MBPs, android tablet and top of the line phone... and it's actually out of necessity >_< 23:06:59 p_l|backup: shame on you 23:07:11 doc_who [~doc_who@pool-108-18-142-175.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:53 drdo: it was easier to just get two MBPs so that both founders could take over work on Apple-targeted parts of the software 23:08:02 haha 23:08:13 welcome to the gadget freakshow (: 23:08:18 yeah 23:08:21 one of us! gooble gobble! one of us! 23:08:44 lol 23:09:04 antifuchs: and that doesn't include the fact that we will need a blackberry and webos device later on too (probably also the more powerful bada device too) 23:09:32 -!- HET2 [~diman@2001:629:3200:95:218:f3ff:fe79:31db] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:09:33 joys of developing for multiple platforms ^^; 23:09:41 -!- limetree [~simon@c-23e8e155.1226-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:09:50 feels like the 80s again, I'm sure (: 23:10:06 HET2 [~diman@cpc12-cdif12-2-0-cust276.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:10:36 antifuchs: well, at least the hw is smaller :P 23:10:48 and there are virtual machines :D 23:11:49 The_Fellow [~The_Fello@glida.mooo.com] has joined #lisp 23:12:06 -!- cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:12:06 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-33-40-18.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:12:09 (it's annoying that many platforms can't share codebase, though) 23:12:55 p_l|backup: Weren't you working on that mobile file sharing application? 23:14:28 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-33-40-18.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:47 drdo: yep 23:14:59 drdo: we are currently trying to get HackFwd to fund us :) 23:15:45 antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:16:55 p_l|backup: you might also be interested in seedcamp.com 23:17:03 they're serious and are good for some money (: 23:17:16 antifuchs: yeah 23:17:28 I think their deadline for this year's round is coming up soon 23:17:29 p_l|backup: What kind of expenses does a startup like yours have? 23:17:31 cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 23:17:48 food, servers, incorporation taxes? 23:17:56 drdo: from 0 to quite a lot 23:18:07 -!- cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:18:17 p_l|backup: It depends mainly on how much traffic you get, right? 23:18:32 we are trying to get funding so that we can stop thinking about "how do we pay the bills for utilities and food" 23:19:00 and yes, it will depend on traffic 23:19:37 p_l|backup: before you go in there though, definitely learn as much about your users as you can. metrics - know all of them (: 23:20:12 (and be prepared to do borderline creepy things with site/app interaction that let you learn about how your users use your product) (: 23:20:24 antifuchs: true 23:20:27 (ain't startup life great) 23:20:30 seriously, they love that. 23:20:30 haha 23:20:52 carlo_au [~carlo@ppp59-167-11-13.lns1.syd6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:53 antifuchs: if it goes through, we plan on going after another project, etc. :P 23:20:58 "they" = your potential investors 23:21:06 mhm mhm 23:21:22 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.19.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:21:24 though, I have to say that HackFwd is really one kickass initiativ 23:22:17 30% equity is quite a large chunk, but for a year of focused work, that's ... livable. 23:22:22 we had to deal with some criticism at OpenCoffee Meetup where we presented (and sort-of showed a pre-alpha demo :P), but it got them interested 23:22:47 antifuchs: I kinda expected other sources of capital to want more 23:23:18 seed funds usually take around 10% or so, afaik. 23:24:09 but then, they usually give you around 50k 23:24:29 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-134-5-247.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 23:24:30 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-134-5-247.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Changing host] 23:24:30 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 23:24:41 funding for an entire year is def more than that (: 23:24:47 true 23:25:21 though I frankly speaking wonder if my co-founder will manage to get that >=100k he plans :D 23:25:33 *coughs* 23:25:53 antifuchs: for the whole year, that is 23:25:55 the idea is that you stick the money into the business and get it profitable. 23:26:00 /then/ you get rich (: 23:26:31 I find this bussiness thing very interesting, i don't understand it at all 23:26:57 haha, yes. But they mentioned "target your monthly salary", so he pulled the statistics about IT-related wages :D 23:27:43 (which he managed to wind to 1500/month) 23:28:20 oh. that was total? 23:28:39 Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.245.203] has joined #lisp 23:28:47 though we expect quite a lot of purely-business expenses - lots of marketing, translation services (it will need at least all languages of EU, plus Korean, Japanese, chinese and possibly few others) 23:29:49 antifuchs: well, 1500 for person, so 3000 * 12 for the whole year. 23:30:00 I am the cautious one in the pair :P 23:30:53 yeah. christopher and I survived on 50k for a pretty long time (: 23:31:06 antifuchs: what you did? 23:31:23 we were running soup.io (: 23:31:34 but it ate through my savings, so I bailed 23:31:36 (also, 6k PLN/month is enough to convince bank that we are eligible for credit cards etc.) 23:31:52 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.199] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:32:54 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp 23:33:00 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.167.154] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:34:50 ... wolframalpha is amusing when you mix currency with SI units 23:35:17 -!- pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has left #lisp 23:36:02 we don't seem to have that startup initiative support in Europe/Belgium, it's sad 23:36:22 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-33-40-18.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:37:01 -!- silenius [~silenus@p549473D0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:37:55 madnificent: it's worse in Poland 23:38:35 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-33-40-18.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:43 how much does it cost to start a company in poland? Are there any initiatives to support you with it? 23:39:49 -!- tsuru [~charlie@adsl-74-179-198-44.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:40:31 madnificent: it's not that hard to start a company... it's the emplyoment costs (insurance etc.), sometimes annoying bureaucracy that is still firmly in pre-computer age in places (registered stamps??)... and utter failure when it comes to support from government 23:41:25 zmv [~daniel@c9533906.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 23:41:27 p_l: by registered stamps you mean how every time you go somewhere with a document you need a stamp from some other office? 23:41:33 start an organized crime company! 23:41:55 carlo_au: no, your company needs a stamp that is registered as the legal one 23:41:55 hahaha 23:42:12 p_l|backup: sounds a lot like belgium :) 23:42:19 p_l: ah, those things 23:42:38 stassats: costly and slow to build up profits... picking a war with Triads can be costly 23:42:44 p_l: I was in Prague for 2 years and everyone loved stamps. Stamp this, stamp that. Always stamping things. Even receipts from shops. 23:43:39 stassats: and nuking someplace in China, while shutting up competition, might bring unwanted attention... ;-) 23:47:14 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 23:47:23 leifw [~user@ool-18bac6ad.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:47:38 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:48:25 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 23:53:01 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 23:56:39 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-134-230.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:56:42 -!- zmv [~daniel@c9533906.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:57:57 anyway, preliminary analysis suggests it might get profitable with 1% of paying users... :) 23:58:12 nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has joined #lisp 23:58:12 -!- nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has quit [Changing host] 23:58:12 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 23:58:23 a 1% paying-user ratio is pretty optimistic (: 23:58:37 would that be enough for a golden ipad? 23:58:43 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-98-113-194-183.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:59:22 stassats: after few months, ys 23:59:25 *yes 23:59:32 antifuchs: haha 23:59:36 greatly depends on the app, it might be sick-high or dirt-low :)