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Quit] 01:54:10 literal [hinrik@w.nix.is] has joined #lisp 01:54:16 <_3b> does :default-initargs not affect slots added to existing instances when a class is redefined? 01:57:02 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:59:44 Yuuhi` [benni@p5483B66D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:59:54 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:59:59 symbole [~user@ool-ad02b0d9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:01:34 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483BA20.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:02:31 cbp [~cesarbp@189.139.235.145] has joined #lisp 02:02:35 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 02:02:55 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@121.8.246.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:04:11 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:04:23 ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 02:04:45 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has 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I just wanna turn pictures into thumbnails. No rotation or scaling necessary. 02:43:16 err scaling 02:43:36 scaling might be necessary to resize images 02:48:29 Deathaholic [~Mococa@186.214.245.34] has joined #lisp 02:48:45 I used the gd library for such here 02:49:36 I didn't yet write a cl frontend for it though, but I wrote one for spidermonkey; php also supports it 02:50:17 I think the gd author gave maintainership for it to php developers even 02:51:16 there are a bunch actually, but Common-Lisp.net decided to nuke its CVS repos 02:51:18 hmmm 02:51:38 hmm there's some gnome related library too if I remember 02:51:39 phadthai: no less than edi wrote the CL bindings for GD 02:51:50 ok 02:54:53 on my ecl-bindings todo: 02:54:54 ;;;; - Eventually, GD and/or Cairo+Pango and/or epeg+imlib2 02:57:31 -!- ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.18.12] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:58:23 Probably soon going into a shop that uses Python for their toolchain - don't really know it, pretty strong in CL - any big gripes or love from a lisper perspective on python? I'm aware of the lambda thing, etc., was wondering how nasty or nice it is in practice. 02:58:38 No namespaces. 02:58:41 ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.18.12] has joined #lisp 02:59:06 performance and macros (if they matter) 02:59:24 If you wanted performance you'd be better off going with javascript. :) 02:59:29 It beats hell out of Perl, but the significant whitespace thing occasionally drives me up the wall. 02:59:46 I like the significant whitespace -- it just forces bad people to indent properly. 02:59:49 Fortunately, they're looking at JS from all angles for other work, I may end up pushing them toward JS 02:59:57 Just ban all tabs. 03:00:06 I'll be one down from the head tech guy/above all the seniors. JS at least has a working lambda 03:00:38 JS is actually pretty sane. 03:00:57 If it had macros it would be a good contender for 'the next lisp'. 03:00:59 I've done (yet another. . . ) lisp->PS of my own, it works as JS is pretty clean 03:01:13 With Lisp->JS it DOES have macros 03:01:13 I used spidermonkey for some projects and agree that it's decent 03:01:18 el-maxo_ [~max@p5DE8C2FD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:30 You could probably turn it into scheme with a good backend (call/cc) 03:01:32 Modius: the only thing that's *really* tripped me up is the need to explicitly return a value, when you're working in a functional style. I was too used to Lisp, and took a while figuring out why my nicely recursive stuff was failing in strange ways. 03:01:36 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 03:01:49 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 03:02:01 jfleming: Yeah, my CLL->JS autogen stuff does that automatically 03:02:03 scheme was one of the inspirations behind js even; writing part of a scheme for it would probably be simple 03:02:17 -!- el-maxo [~max@p5790F7EB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:02:47 "Coders at work" had a good interview with the JS creator: Something like (as I recall): "Yeah, I know that wasn't a great idea; but it was the night before we had to ship it" 03:02:50 phadthai: There's a lisp for it. 03:02:55 phadthai: original javascript was written in Common Lisp. compiler is still out there 03:03:01 and where theres a lisp theres usually a scheme 03:03:43 hmm I somewhat remember of that cl js implementation, I didn't know it was the first though, I've seen rhino and hmm forgot the name of that one in js 03:05:10 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.83.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:05:14 Modius: :) I also remember the arguments about making it easy for people to copy and paste random scripts from random people by web page authors 03:05:16 -!- pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:05:42 one of the reasons behind making the semicolon statement-separator optional 03:05:44 phadthai: PEople copy and paste javascript? (/jk) 03:05:53 Modius: python is great if you treat it as a nice C++ or Java, and don't try to treat it like a crippled lisp 03:06:17 joshe: That's where I figured the appeal came from, C++/Java backgrounders coming in and doing the same class-based s**t 03:07:12 Python gave me the impression that, unlike many languages, it was written by someone who cranked it out without having a background that included other higher languages (Scheme or any of that world). I.e. feature X wasn't consciously left out; but omitted in ignorance. 03:07:48 Unless f***ing the lambda up gives it some sort of speed boost. 03:07:53 perhaps you're right, as many features were added over time 03:08:03 Modius: It's fairly accurate. 03:08:14 Zhivago: What's fairly accurate? 03:08:24 That Guido didn't know what he was doing. 03:08:25 Doesn't the Python designer explicitly dislike lambda? 03:08:30 You are operating under the assumption that anyone who got lisp would simply write a lisp. 03:08:37 Bike: I take that prattle as after-the-fact excuses 03:08:41 But, most popular languages were written by such people. 03:08:44 That seems accurate to me :) 03:08:59 My theory is that it is because such languages exhibit superficial simplicity. 03:09:01 I see. I just remember seeing an example of that weird inability to close over them 03:09:14 (Oh fu**, I left out X, boy was that stupid) err, X sux, you don't want X anyway 03:09:14 No. Python has proper closures. 03:09:24 The problem is that it has implicit variable establishment. 03:09:26 Bike: I remember something about that 03:09:28 loomer [~loomer@pool-173-79-230-80.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:28 It was something to do with scoping. 03:09:30 -!- loomer [~loomer@pool-173-79-230-80.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 03:09:30 loomer [~loomer@unaffiliated/loomer] has joined #lisp 03:09:30 Python has closures, but lacks a syntax to make them easy to use. 03:09:31 Their closures don't have the useful property of capturing variables. 03:09:41 Isn't that what closure means? 03:09:43 No. The closures capture variables just fine. 03:09:49 You don't get the benefits of being able to put a closure around any arbitrary piece of code and have it work the same 03:09:51 I mean mutating variables 03:09:58 What do you call the Javascript/lisp behaviorn then? 03:10:03 I think it was something like a for over some list and capturing the for variable in closures 03:10:09 The problem is that trying to mutate a captured variable looks like establishing a new variable to python. 03:10:11 and they allg ot the same one 03:10:16 *all got 03:10:17 Where you can make a lambda and use it as an event handler modifying a lexically scoped int. 03:10:21 ie: assigning to a variable creates a new variable in the inner scope 03:10:27 That's a pretty big problem. 03:10:43 If it just had var x = 4; instead of x = 4; to establish x as a variable there wouldn't be an issue. 03:10:46 Without that limitation, you have the useful property of being able to take any function, dividing the code in it and returning a thunk. 03:10:58 You can get around it by assigning to an array subscript, for example 03:11:13 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440299.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:11:17 Zhivago: Can you explain more about the Python scope to us (assuming audience) that will give insight as to the why of it? (The understanding may help with the rest of python coding) 03:11:54 The scope isn't the issue, scoping in python is simply lexical. 03:11:58 I've found Objective C's blocks to be very very good, its conventions make it practically a dynamic language. You get a warning/error if you modify a captured variable, and can use that as a cue to tag it with __block. 03:12:25 Zhivago: How do you establish a new binding in python? 03:12:30 What's the issue is that there's no way to assign to a variable without creating it in the innermost scope. 03:12:44 er, without creating a binding, that is 03:12:48 joshe/Zhivago: Aah - x = 5 is always a new x 03:13:00 So if they'd add a set(x, 5) for instance, that would get around it. 03:13:11 oh boy 03:13:14 Is that true? 03:13:16 You can get around it with something like x[0] = 5 03:13:25 joshe: Which sux :P 03:13:32 It's terrible. 03:13:33 If there were macros and symbol-macros. . . haha 03:13:54 -!- loomer [~loomer@unaffiliated/loomer] has quit [Client Quit] 03:14:18 Why do a lot of people like Python? 03:14:27 Perl might be a terrible mishmash of features glued on randomly with weird magic syntax everywhere, but at least it has proper lambdas and sensible closures. 03:14:40 drdo: it's better than java? 03:14:53 joshe: Well, that's true of almost all languages 03:14:57 So, not very impressive 03:15:00 heh 03:15:10 Not true of almost all popular languages. 03:15:12 drdo: Batteries included! Monty Python references! 03:15:15 joshe: hmm and dynamic/special variables too I think? 03:15:29 I'd consider a skilled programmer would be more productive in C++ than Java. 03:15:40 Oh please, let's not even go there 03:15:48 I like it because it allows me to write horribly unreadable code. 03:16:01 A skilled programmer could also be more productive in Java than in C++. 03:16:04 phadthai: I believe perl has dynamically scoped variables 03:16:10 pjb: Nope 03:16:15 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-98-113-194-183.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:16:16 drdo: today I ported a script from perl to python3 because python was groking Unicode better. 03:16:38 gigamonkey: Do you write python frequently? 03:16:41 drdo: a = 1 establishes a, or mutates a if already present. 03:16:46 Modius: I believe that it feels better to wallow in *this* kind of mud than *that* kind of mud 03:16:50 joshe: perl is like CL, it has both lexically and dynamically scoped variables. 03:16:56 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439986.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 03:17:05 drdo: yes. A lot of the sample code for CQ is in Python. 03:17:08 Python is superficially simple and comes with useful libraries. 03:17:15 Zhivago: So how do i introduce a new binding if there is a binding already present in an environment further up? 03:17:36 gigamonkey: What makes it attractive? 03:17:45 gigamonkey: I remember the different keywords for declaring them, but not if 'local' variables had the same semantics as CL special variables. 03:17:45 -!- jweiss [~user@cpe-069-134-063-238.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:17:51 drdo: It only mutates a if a is in the local scope. 03:17:54 It left a bad taste when i tried it 03:18:07 Zhivago: So how do i mutate if it's further up? 03:18:15 drdo: it's concise and isn't going to freak people out like Lisp would. :-| 03:18:30 drdo: You don't. 03:18:46 Zhivago: well you can say 'global a' and then twiddle the global a. 03:18:48 gigamonkey: Well, haskell is concise?! :P 03:18:51 drdo: You can use 'global a' to effectively import a from the global scope. 03:19:13 drdo: yes. but not very much like pseduo code. Which python is. 03:19:19 So all i can do is mutate the current and toplevel envs? 03:19:25 There might be something you can do with the awful underscore-laden environment dictionaries to get access to enclosing lexical scopes. 03:19:26 nothing in between 03:19:32 drdo: those are the only two envs there are 03:19:41 gigamonkey: That _used_ to be true. 03:19:42 Which is weird and sometimes annoying. But there it is. 03:19:45 gigamonkey: what? 03:19:53 Zhivago: isn't it anymore? 03:20:01 Now you also have nested local environments, but you can only mutated in the innermost. 03:20:09 That certainly can't be true? 03:20:29 e.g. def foo(): a = 1; def bar(): return a; return bar 03:20:36 will capture a just fine. 03:21:02 Zhivago: What's the purpose of the return there? 03:21:13 To get the value out? 03:21:16 I know it's mandatory, but is there an official rationale for it? 03:21:30 Because that's how C did it? 03:21:48 Presumably they didn't want to be spilling values all over the place by accident like lisp. 03:22:15 What always gets me about languages like that is forgetting to use commas to delimit lists. 03:22:16 Or more likely, because that's how C/C++ did it. 03:22:58 The thing that most annoys me 03:23:05 Is the distinction between statements and expressions 03:23:18 I don't really have a problem with return there -- it means that you only return None by accident. 03:24:50 Within a month I won't be in enterprise software any more. I can stop telling people I give $5 HJs at the bus station to stop them finding out my real job. 03:26:00 Zhivago: I still don't understand how it is popular, it's not very nice, the implementations have pretty bad performance 03:26:29 drdo: Approach it from the perspective of a neophyte. 03:26:32 drdo: Of the dynamic languages it's the easiest to transition into from people of majority background 03:26:49 Modius: From people of what? 03:26:59 drdo: They take some code copy and paste it in and it does stuff, and it looks kind of like it makes sense. 03:27:00 drdo: Sorry, multitasking. People of C++ background 03:27:04 Zhivago: It looks horribly complicated for a neophyte 03:27:10 drdo: also, it's very pervasive use of iterators including generators is pretty nice. 03:27:13 drdo: How would you know? 03:27:32 Zhivago: It is, by definition, complicated 03:27:45 If i had to explain to someone how to evaluate python code 03:27:49 it's complicated 03:27:50 drdo: How would you know how it looks for a neophyte? 03:27:54 Guest43057 [~jason@pool-96-241-218-227.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:28:04 That's because you'd be explaining it incorrectly. 03:28:16 what? 03:28:25 You'd be telling them how python works, not how to do what they want. 03:28:41 drdo: You may have hit the nail on the head. You said "evaluate". People of the background that most programmers I know going into it are from don't "evaluate" code, they step it. 03:29:39 Zhivago: I guess i sort of, kinda understand what you mean 03:29:54 I probably don't 03:30:41 People don't want to know how python works. 03:30:45 interesting distinctions 03:30:54 I think I agree 03:30:54 They just want to do something. 03:30:56 It is astounding, however, how slow CPython is compared to, say, SBCL. 03:31:11 gigamonkey: Compare CPython with V8 javascript :) 03:31:18 Zhivago: That's all fine and dandy while you are writing hello worlds 03:31:37 And specially once a student is stuck on a bug 03:31:40 Actually, SBCL is only about twice as fast a V8. 03:31:45 He will have to understand very well how it works 03:31:54 drdo: Not really. 03:32:09 Zhivago: Unless you employ debugging by hammer 03:32:13 Many do 03:32:25 Zhivago: why because V8 Javascript also kicks CPython's rear end? 03:32:26 drdo: What does sum([len(x) for x in words]) mean? 03:32:36 giga: yeah. By a large factor. 03:32:43 Lisp code in ArnoldBoecklin extrabold: ftp://ftp.informatimago.com/users/pjb/images/ArnoldBoecklin-eb.png 03:32:50 But not as much as SBCL, apparently? 03:32:53 I suspect that within a few years javascript will be outperforming sbcl. :) 03:33:10 Zhivago: I don't know python, but probably (reduce #'+ (mapcar #'length words)) 03:33:34 drdo: That's the point -- you don't need to understand python in order to figure out its idioms.. 03:33:35 Zhivago: unless the next lisp billionaire invests in Lisp, like Shuttleworth invests in Ubuntu? 03:33:50 MasterBismuth [~MasterBis@63-231-111-140.clsp.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:34:22 -!- mippymoe89 [~mippymoe8@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:34:37 Zhivago: That's all very good until you get into certain subtlties 03:34:53 drdo: are there particular subtleties you're worried about. 03:35:01 Or do you just sense that somewhere there be dragons? 03:35:29 *gigamonkey* is sure glad he has to download 4.5G of Xcode crap in order to try out Haskell. 03:35:36 gigamonkey: I have never used it very much, but i tried it and i was very unimpressed 03:35:43 Xcode for haskell? 03:35:45 pjb: interesting font, not the most readable for code though :) 03:35:47 drdo: Those don't matter until you're sufficiently heavily invested in order to have reason to figure them out. 03:35:50 And the weird syntax rules with whitespace annoyed me a lot 03:36:07 And the statement/expression distinction 03:36:13 drdo: Read this page for me and tell me what you think -- http://oculointerlinguistic.blogspot.com/ 03:36:57 You want me to read about hotdog eating records? 03:37:04 Modius: apparently it's required for both GHC and HaskellPlatform 03:37:10 drdo: Can you understand the article? 03:37:24 Zhivago: sure 03:37:32 drdo: Do you know the language it's written in? 03:37:35 spanish 03:37:38 No. 03:37:52 wait 03:37:56 italian? 03:37:59 No. 03:38:04 the fuck 03:38:15 i can understand it with no problems 03:38:16 Python reminds me of interlingua, for similar reasons. 03:38:20 I thought it was spanish 03:38:22 Yes -- it's designed that way. 03:38:30 Looks like a bizarre mix of latin languages 03:38:44 What they've done is to take the common cognates of the major European languages and tacked on a simplified latin grammar. 03:38:44 haha 03:38:45 I'm portuguese so it's not particularly hard to understand it 03:38:57 Zhivago: Can you understand it? 03:38:58 Pretty much anyone who speaks a European language can read it. 03:39:00 Sure. 03:39:04 I have a vowel on the end of my name (Italian); but am learning the language of my adopted country, USA (Spanish) 03:39:06 What languages do you know? 03:39:25 For European languages? I know English extremely well. 03:39:49 I think it would be fairly hard for an english-only speaker to understand 03:39:51 Is it? 03:40:02 Python is a bit similar -- it's taken many common idioms. 03:40:13 drdo: Not if you have a decent vocabulary. 03:40:40 Zhivago: By the way, that's a fairly weak argument for python 03:40:44 So a lot of people can read python without understanding it. 03:40:58 (That is, at a non-superficial level) 03:41:02 I don't give a shit if something is easy to understand at first sight 03:41:10 Just as people can gloss interlingua without knowing the language. 03:41:12 If i'm going to spend years working with it 03:41:16 What you care about is irrelevant. 03:41:24 You're just one freak that doesn't represent anyone significant. 03:41:38 When dealing with popularity you need to consider first the popular case. 03:41:44 Of course 03:42:01 I think this is also why PHP is popular. 03:42:07 Actually, that's a concept for a new kind of compiler: don't compile a specified language, but compile whatever idioms the programmers throw at you... 03:42:09 But i would imagine that the popular case is that people don't spend 5 minutes looking at some code? 03:42:12 It's superficially simple. 03:42:25 I guess this is also similar to the difference between pop music and real music 03:42:41 drdo: The popular case is that some teenager wants to do something to impress his buddies. 03:42:46 phadthai: I never understood what people mean by "pop music" 03:43:05 music destined for a general public, intended to be popular 03:43:07 drdo: So they go on the internet and copy and paste code and hit it with a stick until it can open his cd-bay automatically. 03:43:09 Zhivago: How is that relevant to professional programmers? 03:43:14 mippymoe89 [~mippymoe8@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:19 drdo: Where do you think professional programmers come from? 03:43:27 Well sure 03:43:31 Professionals don't decide which languages are popular. 03:43:40 It's the amateurs that do that. 03:43:48 Well, and microsoft. 03:43:50 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-4-206.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 03:44:03 Eh, i don't think microsoft decides much these days 03:44:04 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-4-206.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has left #lisp 03:44:14 No, but their decisions linger. 03:44:31 It'll take another generation to get past them. 03:44:33 longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has joined #lisp 03:44:59 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@71.16.32.87] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 03:45:24 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:45:32 I find this popularity discussion quite interesting 03:46:27 That idea that amateurs like something such as python is weird to me 03:46:50 I wasn't like that 03:49:01 -!- mippymoe89 [~mippymoe8@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:49:15 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-150-63.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:49:25 -!- ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.18.12] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:49:33 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:49:47 Zhivago: Are the nested local environments in Python are only from nested def's? 03:49:59 ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.18.12] has joined #lisp 03:50:34 Another thing i find really interesting is that my brain is a retard and decides that i should be energetic and awake right now when it has been suffering from sleep deprivation and makes me feel like shit for the entire day 03:51:01 giga: I believe so. 03:51:11 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-47-164.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:51:22 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has joined #lisp 03:51:34 Zhivago: the thing that kills me is how for loops don't create new bindings. 03:52:05 Certainly function calls must also create new environments? 03:52:15 Every so often I do 'for s in whatever:' where s is also a variable in the function which I then clobber. 03:52:22 Yeah, leaky state all over the place. 03:52:31 drdo: yes. But within a function nothing but a nested function creates a new scope. 03:52:44 gigamonkey: another function call? 03:52:58 Sure. 03:53:15 Each function has its own scope. 03:53:43 nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:215:5200:0:5efe:3b42:8f51] has joined #lisp 03:53:43 -!- nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:215:5200:0:5efe:3b42:8f51] has quit [Changing host] 03:53:43 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 03:54:03 But there's no equivalent of LET and other constructs such as 'for' don't create a new scope. 03:54:22 SidH_ [~SidH_@203.101.61.7] has joined #lisp 03:55:20 Which is not hard to understand. But is sometimes hard to remember when you're used to other languages. 03:55:32 I remember an example from some blog where that led to weird problems 03:56:15 Using a for and capturing the for variable in a closure 03:56:20 and they all shared it 03:56:38 and as it was being mutated, you always got the last value 03:56:51 drdo: That's common across many languages including CL 03:57:00 That's the thing I was thinking about. 03:57:10 Modius: worse, in CL, it's not specified which behavior you get. 03:57:11 drdo: But, in JS, another twist - declaring var iterationvariable = iterationvariable; doesn't make a new binding 03:57:19 On the plus side, I think it's specifically specified to be unspecified. ;-) 03:57:25 may not. 03:57:56 Think of var x; in js as being a declaration that x is a local variable. 03:57:58 Javascript also has rather unfortunate scoping rules. 03:58:08 The assignment is separate, and x = 10; var x; is fine. 03:58:46 mippymoe89 [~mippymoe8@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:49 But at least you can always do (function () { ... whatever ...})(); if you really need to. 03:59:20 Well, dolist seems to work fime 03:59:38 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-98-234-186-226.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:59:39 drdo: It may or may not make fresh bindings per iteration. 03:59:51 it does in SBCL at least 04:00:01 SBCL is not CL. 04:00:08 And that is the behaviour i expect, is it not specified by the standard? 04:00:22 drdo: You need some sleep 04:00:36 I know, but what has that have to do with this? :P 04:00:41 PissedNu1lock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 04:01:12 TDT` [~user@74.115.254.25] has joined #lisp 04:01:25 jmbr_ [~jmbr@115.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 04:02:23 Your question was answered twice, just above. 04:02:54 oh yes 04:03:52 -!- SidH_ [~SidH_@203.101.61.7] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:04:27 SidH_ [~SidH_@203.101.61.7] has joined 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[~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 04:15:58 -!- SidH_ [~SidH_@203.101.61.7] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:16:29 SidH_ [~SidH_@203.101.61.10] has joined #lisp 04:16:39 -!- SidH_ [~SidH_@203.101.61.10] has quit [Client Quit] 04:19:27 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 04:20:30 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 04:30:39 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:34:47 -!- longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:36:28 mydik [~qle@99-14-26-190.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:45:27 gigamonkey: Well, now that x86 and linux runs on JavaScript, let's just load clisp on it: universal CL in the browser! 04:45:35 (even sbcl and ccl might run there). 04:49:25 Apart from memory usage ... 04:52:17 -!- cbp [~cesarbp@189.139.235.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:55:52 -!- mippymoe89 [~mippymoe8@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:56:43 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.8.156.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:58:56 mippymoe89 [~mippymoe8@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:01:48 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:05:37 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:06:37 Zhivago: linux can run on as little as 4 MB. 05:06:46 sbcl can't. 05:07:02 that's why I mentionned first clisp. 05:07:09 Sure, that would be fine. 05:07:09 I know that sbcl is weaker. 05:07:33 Although you'd be better off compiling to js and running natively. 05:07:50 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:07:55 Perhaps not. Running on Linux on x86 on JavaScript would make a point... 05:08:12 And in ten years, it'd run as fast as on my 3.5 GHz i7. 05:08:59 Unlikely. 05:10:18 The shift from PCs to appliances means that processor speed increases are going to slow down a lot in favour of lower power consumption. 05:10:56 The shift toward multicore architectures likewise. 05:12:17 -!- wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-98-234-186-226.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:12:45 I think we're back into smart-terminals and mainframes. 05:13:57 The difference is that when you have hundred of cores, you can run each micro-instruction on a different core at the same time you decide which micro-instruction result you must select. So even if the cores are slightly slower, an emulator could be faster on a multicore, than on a faster monocore. 05:14:19 Doesn't follow. 05:14:22 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:14:30 You'd have to pay a vast intercore i/o cost. 05:14:35 -!- symbole [~user@ool-ad02b0d9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:15:08 (This is one reason that image based systems are going to suffer) 05:15:47 It's like bicycles - every year they kept getting lighter. 05:15:47 Zhivago: intercore i/o cost depends on the architecture. It may be cheap.. 05:15:52 Until they were light enough. 05:15:55 (In terms of time). 05:16:09 pjb: It's never going to be anywhere near as cheap as not doing i/o. 05:16:28 Zhivago: that's not the question, and that's my point. 05:16:39 pjb: Just look at the difference between cache speeds. 05:16:50 The point is that they're investing billions in optimizing JavaScript. 05:16:58 Sure. 05:17:09 -!- mydik [~qle@99-14-26-190.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:17:16 theratking862 [~theratkin@pool-173-48-130-251.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:17 Unfortunately using that to run linux to run sbcl is probably always going to suck. 05:17:23 if you 05:17:32 So even if a monocore could be designed, eventually it will be faster to run on JavaScript than on an hypothetical hardware. 05:17:36 Compiling code to js and designing it to run in many separate processes on the other hand ... 05:17:47 -!- theratking862 [~theratkin@pool-173-48-130-251.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 05:17:53 theratking862 [~theratkin@pool-173-48-130-251.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:56 pbj: That last sentence of yours is gibberish. 05:18:15 Just write a good lisp in javascript (with a compiler) and go to town 05:19:10 Krystof [~csr21@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 05:19:35 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-138-243.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:19:39 if you want to "expand" a list to fit a function that takes multiple arguments you would say (apply #'function list), but what if you want to do the same with a macro? 05:20:03 the: macroexpand? 05:20:16 the: Write a macro to do it? 05:20:19 The billions that go into optimizing JavaScript don't go in designing a fast monocore lisp processor where there won't be intercore i/o cost, therefore there won't be such a processor, and therefore you better port your systems to JavaScript. 05:20:42 pjb: I see the appeal in the idea, but pnq's right: the smart thing to do would be to implement an SBCL compiler in javascript. 05:20:50 Zhivago: k. thought there may have been one already 05:21:19 jfleming: it may not be useful. 05:21:32 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-149-1.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:21:33 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 05:21:37 pbj: Sure. You just need to do so sensibly. 05:21:57 At one time you might realize that you won't be writing efficient low level code in sbcl, because anything you can do will be ten times slower than what you get from JavaScript. 05:22:28 Then it won't matter if sbcl is ten or thousands times slower, for the high level code you write in lisp. 05:22:54 pjb: Gibberish. 05:23:43 Although that probably started with the use of "low level code". 05:25:03 I think that the only interesting point here is that current lisps are poorly designed for a distributed processing future. 05:25:14 Everything else can be addressed by writing compilers. 05:26:42 That really applies to anything that depends on threads. 05:27:28 Basically (let ((pcl (make-package "PCL" :use '("CL")))) (do-external-symbol (s "CL") (if (and (fboundp s) (not (or (macro-function s) (special-operator-p s)))) (export (intern (format nil "P~A" s) pcl) pcl) (export s pcl))) pcl) and implement the P* functions in PCL ;-) 05:30:35 Zhivago: the @ did the trick 05:30:35 speaking of parallelism & processing, anybody know what tech is behind adapteva? 05:31:00 they've made some announcements, but I haven't actually seen any technical claims of why they'd be faster 05:34:47 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-154-169.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:35:55 Presumably for distributed programs. 05:35:59 superjudge [~superjudg@195.22.80.141] has joined #lisp 05:37:18 Assigning a dedicated code to an app would probably also help. 05:37:23 s/code/core/ 05:37:44 Then they'd mostly be asleep, but with a very low wakeup cost. 05:39:45 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-138-243.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 05:40:55 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-138-243.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:44:42 -!- theratking862 [~theratkin@pool-173-48-130-251.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 05:48:33 -!- Deathaholic [~Mococa@186.214.245.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:48:57 mishoo 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[~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:13:53 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.65.209.45] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:14:51 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-65-209-45.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 06:16:02 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:16:08 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:7a2b:cbff:fed0:c11c] has joined #lisp 06:16:08 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:7a2b:cbff:fed0:c11c] has quit [Changing host] 06:16:08 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 06:16:23 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-vbgqiieoxyxhceqq] has joined #lisp 06:16:23 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-vbgqiieoxyxhceqq] has quit [Changing host] 06:16:23 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 06:19:10 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-138-243.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:19:32 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 06:20:16 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:20:58 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-130-133.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:21:21 -!- Guest43057 [~jason@pool-96-241-218-227.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:23:08 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has joined #lisp 06:26:09 -!- splittist [~splittist@77-125.1-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: splittist] 06:27:13 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-130-133.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 06:29:39 good morning all 06:30:08 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 06:31:04 -!- benny [~benny@i577A2E45.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:33:03 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 06:33:25 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:34:28 hm, i think i want to add lisp-style (as in c-style) to slime-cl-indent.el at some point 06:34:30 tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 06:36:35 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 06:39:24 -!- kephas [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-28-129.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:41:38 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-65-209-45.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:42:45 cmm [~cmm@109.65.209.45] has joined #lisp 06:43:59 -!- mippymoe89 [~mippymoe8@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:46:05 kephas [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-41-208.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:49:13 basho__ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-231-133.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:51:03 splittist [~splittist@77-125.1-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:52:10 morning 06:55:44 greaver [~DCA@94.126.185.1] has joined #lisp 06:57:36 -!- limetree [~simon@c-23e8e155.1226-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:59:20 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-141-32.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 07:03:07 mcsontos 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[~milan@port-92-204-100-145.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:34:44 -!- Harag [~phil@dsl-242-248-163.telkomadsl.co.za] has left #lisp 07:36:02 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-150-156.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:36:07 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:36:30 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-gulvgabxnvsoktdf] has joined #lisp 07:36:30 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-gulvgabxnvsoktdf] has quit [Changing host] 07:36:30 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 07:36:37 benny [~benny@i577A3BCF.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 07:37:41 cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 07:37:54 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 07:40:28 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 07:47:27 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-141-32.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:47:34 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-141-32.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 07:50:35 stis [~stis@host-90-235-68-24.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 07:51:04 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-wslkployyoaouzgd] has joined #lisp 07:55:57 -!- ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.18.12] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:55:58 hello splittist 07:59:59 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-141-32.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 08:00:50 jjong [~user@203.246.179.177] has joined #lisp 08:03:26 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-38-156-48.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:04:41 -!- Krystof [~csr21@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:05:15 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:05:29 -!- stis [~stis@host-90-235-68-24.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:06:11 What's new and exciting fusss? 08:06:34 splittist: huddled over restas and closure-template 08:07:10 tcr [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 08:07:18 -!- jingtao [b4bb9722@gateway/web/freenode/ip.180.187.151.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:07:20 it's a very sweet templating DSL, but doesn't have import/use/include functionality. Uses a procedural {call/} mechanism to "invoke" templates 08:09:20 cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.67] has joined #lisp 08:09:23 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.138.199] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:09:30 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.67] has quit [Changing host] 08:09:30 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 08:09:43 fusss: the Java thing? 08:10:10 google wrote it in java, but we're using archimag's port of it to Common Lisp 08:10:26 http://code.google.com/p/cl-closure-template/ 08:14:07 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 08:15:00 Krystof [~csr21@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 08:16:10 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 08:16:13 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:17:44 tagae [~user@ip-213-49-229-224.dsl.scarlet.be] has joined #lisp 08:18:49 -!- tagae [~user@ip-213-49-229-224.dsl.scarlet.be] has quit [Client Quit] 08:19:12 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:23:46 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-248.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:24:40 Night-Hacks [~amir@95.38.52.69] has joined #lisp 08:28:23 -!- lanthan [~ze@dslb-092-078-006-159.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 08:28:34 -!- Krystof [~csr21@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:34:01 misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has joined #lisp 08:37:31 brill [~brill@193.3.8.7] has joined #lisp 08:41:13 fixed! 08:41:26 HET2 [~diman@cpc12-cdif12-2-0-cust276.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:41:54 make sure to terminate all your tags. {foo}{/foo} or {foo /} 08:43:41 hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:47:35 yakov [~yakov@109.188.180.218] has joined #lisp 08:47:44 hey 08:48:21 naeg [~naeg@170-18-182-46.nbiserv.com] has joined #lisp 08:48:50 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.138.199] has joined #lisp 08:50:24 how one would see if connection available on passive socket? ive searched through usocket documentation and found nothing. 08:50:50 portable-sockets provide :wait argument but it does not work on LW 08:50:56 -!- brill [~brill@193.3.8.7] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:51:08 even ccl:accept-connection does not work under windows :-( 08:51:11 damn. 08:51:43 yakov: don't you have to listen for incoming connections? 08:52:26 jdz, listen? in case of portable-sockets ive create passive socket 08:52:31 is it enough?! 08:52:43 in case of CCL i've made a call to make-socket with :passive also 08:53:14 and usocket.. it is just very poor in respect of functionality. 08:53:19 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 08:53:33 -!- cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:53:49 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has joined #lisp 08:54:11 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:55:12 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.65.209.45] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:55:28 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA208D4.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:55:31 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:56:25 cmm [~cmm@109.65.209.45] has joined #lisp 08:57:34 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc12-cdif12-2-0-cust276.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:57:42 pnq [~nick@ACA236CD.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 08:58:52 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has joined #lisp 09:03:35 HET2 [~diman@cpc12-cdif12-2-0-cust276.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:07:03 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 09:07:15 jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.30.79] has joined #lisp 09:08:10 -!- Night-Hacks [~amir@95.38.52.69] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:09:29 is there a screencast explaining emacs & slime that's a little more up-to-date and more succinct than Marco Baringer's classic? 09:09:34 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:09:38 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-141-32.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 09:11:28 screencast fame awaits! 09:13:08 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 09:14:10 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:16:17 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 09:17:10 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-154-169.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:19:28 Night-Hacks [~amir@95.38.52.69] has joined #lisp 09:21:02 Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@1807ds2-noe.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 09:22:10 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-134-96.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 09:24:36 -!- Landr [~user@78-21-55-201.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:27:45 alright, achievement unlocked. my 3rd attempt at a crud library doesn't seem to suck .. 09:28:08 and on that high note, I end my day. Good night all 09:28:13 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@blowes.lnk.telstra.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 4.0.1/20110413222027]] 09:30:05 Guthur [c0c1f50f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.193.245.15] has joined #lisp 09:32:16 Krystof [~csr21@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 09:34:11 hi 09:35:36 Hello Posterdati 09:38:18 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.138.199] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:40:27 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA236CD.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:41:57 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:50:06 first cut at supporting -*- common-lisp-style: sbcl -*- https://github.com/nikodemus/Slime/tree/slime-indentation 09:53:17 ebzzry_ [~ebzzry@180.192.232.84] has joined #lisp 09:53:18 -!- ebzzry [~ebzzry@180.192.232.84] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:53:20 i wish there were just one style 09:53:42 i do too 09:53:58 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.80.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:54:02 but as long as i /need/ to work with multiple styles, i want the computer to do it for me 09:55:41 fair enough 09:55:53 'common-lisp-style' is quite a long option name 09:56:30 cl-style? 09:57:03 you could use the 'package' precedent just to say 'style', but I would understand not wanting to do that. 09:59:34 hm 10:00:05 i'm really at a loss when it comes to good emacs lisp style 10:00:25 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:00:29 some things in cl-indent.el are called lisp-foo and some common-lisp-foo 10:00:57 why? no idea. is it ok to call something set-common-lisp-foo, or should it be common-lisp-set-foo? 10:01:03 etc 10:01:55 emacs convention is to prefix with the package name, so it'd be common-lisp-set-foo 10:02:18 nikodemus: this is why elisp will never be able to scale, and there will never be a wide range of generally-used customizations for emacs... 10:02:39 haha 10:03:02 aka 'Good Software Engineering Practices Considered Irrelevant' 10:03:19 stassats`: any idea why some things are lisp-foo? are they just grandfathered in, or is there a method to the madness? 10:03:37 no idea about that 10:05:41 hi using #: instead of : in package defining and using it is just for memory reasons or .... ? 10:06:06 Night-Hacks: it avoids interning a symbol. 10:06:40 so it symbols doesnt exist it will throw an exception right ? 10:06:58 symbols cannot not exist 10:07:18 if you have it, it exists 10:07:27 so what does intern do ? 10:07:46 makes a symbol available in the package 10:07:55 vaguely speaking 10:08:52 #: is using objects, but not as symbols any more. 10:09:14 Night-Hacks: iif you have (in-package :cl-user) (defpackage :foo (:use :cl) (:export frobnicator)) you will end up with cl-user::frobnicator, which is a useless symbol and messes up completion. using #:frobnicator makes sure that doesn't happen 10:09:22 Since they've lost their lexical identity. 10:09:36 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-141-32.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:10:04 So you can use them as a kind of string, or for places to hang values and properties, etc. 10:10:18 What intern does is to acquire the symbol with that lexical name. 10:11:07 it's not that having cl-user::frobnicator is technical problem. it's just irritating because it causes smart completion algorithms to go astray 10:11:20 sellout- [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:11:57 The only reason that you'd pick #:frobnicator over "FROBNICATOR" is CL's silly case folding mechanism. 10:13:54 Zhivago: make that "because people use mlisp sometimes" 10:14:59 "FROBNICATOR" works fine with :invert, and using :downcase is... is... just does't happen 10:15:40 the mechanism may or may not be silly, but it bites with new users naively using strings (a curable issue) and freaky (and increasigly misnamed) 'm'lisp (as nikodemus says) 10:15:50 -!- ebzzry_ is now known as ebzzry 10:15:50 I find #:frobnicator a little easier on the eye than "FROBNICATOR". 10:16:34 greaver [~DCA@94.126.185.1] has joined #lisp 10:16:58 *splittist* sometimes wonders about better typographical environments than colour and the odd fixed-width italic for code editing 10:17:02 misternc_ [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has joined #lisp 10:17:15 -!- misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:17:21 splittist: Have a look at what Fortress is doing. 10:18:56 would be nice to have something similar in the CL world. 10:19:14 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 10:21:22 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-171-242.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 10:22:03 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 10:24:04 Hmmm. Seems they use fixed-width for the keywords. 10:25:34 Zhivago: do you have a link where i can see what fortress is doing? 10:26:29 pocket [~pocket_@p4012-ipbf1906hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:26:33 aerique: they're in the middle of migrating from sun.com to java.net, so it's all over the place. This is the page I'm currently viewing: http://projectfortress.sun.com/Projects/Community/wiki/IntegerSquareRoot 10:27:06 Landr [~user@78-21-55-201.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 10:27:15 -!- ebzzry [~ebzzry@180.192.232.84] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:27:40 ebzzry [~ebzzry@180.192.232.84] has joined #lisp 10:29:30 -!- ebzzry [~ebzzry@180.192.232.84] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:29:30 http://labs.oracle.com/projects/plrg/fortress.pdf 10:29:43 Might be a bit out of date. 10:29:59 splittist: for code editing, not sure, but I have just recently got as far as a reasonable milestone in combined code/mathematics/document editing with org-mode 10:30:02 -!- scode [~scode@hyperion.scode.org] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:30:26 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-176-90.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:31:44 ebzzry [~ebzzry@180.192.232.84] has joined #lisp 10:33:02 -!- Night-Hacks [~amir@95.38.52.69] has left #lisp 10:34:21 jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.16.77] has joined #lisp 10:36:53 longfin [~longfin@211.246.68.30] has joined #lisp 10:37:47 scode [~scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 10:44:18 -!- yakov [~yakov@109.188.180.218] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:46:26 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.12.183] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:47:03 alama [~alama@77.226.252.243] has joined #lisp 10:50:43 -!- greaver [~DCA@94.126.185.1] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:51:23 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 10:52:35 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@webuds163-103.rz.uni-saarland.de] has joined #lisp 10:54:01 -!- ebzzry [~ebzzry@180.192.232.84] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:55:18 -!- alama [~alama@77.226.252.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:55:40 alama [~alama@77.226.252.243] has joined #lisp 10:56:03 ebzzry [~ebzzry@180.192.232.84] has joined #lisp 10:56:54 greaver [~DCA@94.126.185.1] has joined #lisp 10:58:00 The python community often appear to me to be frightfully insecure with regard to the language's position within the computing world, I just wanted to point out that 'I am more productive in Python' was rather subjective by saying 'I am more productive in CL', but then I'm accused of belittling Python against CL 11:00:41 Guthur: i'd just say "I am more productive than any of you schmucks" 11:02:07 well, maybe angry would be better than insecure 11:02:24 I'd probably not be able to use #python after that though 11:02:34 big deal 11:04:03 -!- Patzy [~something@bro29-1-82-245-180-56.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:05:02 -!- longfin [~longfin@211.246.68.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:05:41 -!- alama [~alama@77.226.252.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:11:57 -!- ebzzry [~ebzzry@180.192.232.84] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:13:19 Demosthenes [~demo@65.41.157.11] has joined #lisp 11:14:05 ebzzry [~ebzzry@180.192.232.84] has joined #lisp 11:19:20 chp [~chp@2001:da8:a000:155:5eff:35ff:fe0c:c3ef] has joined #lisp 11:23:22 sonnym1 [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:29:04 ehu [~ehuels@109.32.61.33] has joined #lisp 11:30:31 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:31:19 jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-248.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:33:17 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.160.187] has joined #lisp 11:34:42 Patzy [~something@bro29-1-82-245-180-56.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:40:26 pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 11:42:34 tfb [~tfb@92.41.182.93.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:42:41 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.40] has joined #lisp 11:42:59 setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:49:33 Guthur: Python coders are ok. Some of them are even halfway lispers :) (some of them use Tcl here and there) 11:49:44 But Haskell community is really insecure. 11:51:13 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 11:51:36 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.32.61.33] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:52:15 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.38.6] has joined #lisp 11:52:35 MoALTz [~no@92.8.156.160] has joined #lisp 11:52:42 hehe, probably rightfully so 11:53:25 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-248.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:53:28 xan_ [~xan@190.Red-193-152-189.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:53:38 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@195.22.80.141] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 11:57:56 -!- akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-093-204.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:01:44 silenius [~silenus@p54946612.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:33 longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has joined #lisp 12:04:53 -!- longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:05:20 longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has joined #lisp 12:07:54 beach [~user@116.118.47.217] has joined #lisp 12:10:39 Good evening everyone! 12:12:38 Good afternoon beach 12:13:31 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 12:15:29 -!- misternc_ [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:15:57 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:16:32 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@65.41.157.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:18:15 pnq [~nick@172.162.31.89] has joined #lisp 12:18:57 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:21:15 naryl: insecure? 12:22:16 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:22:40 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-150-156.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:24:12 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 12:25:47 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:27:48 urandom__ [~user@p548A7EBD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:33:47 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:35:05 -!- sonnym1 [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:35:55 Night-Hacks [~amir@95.38.52.69] has joined #lisp 12:36:07 cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.67] has joined #lisp 12:36:07 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.67] has quit [Changing host] 12:36:07 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 12:36:44 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:36:59 -!- am0c [~am0c@112.149.169.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:37:09 good afternoon 12:37:52 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:37:59 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:38:29 *Xach* is not font of projects that use "cute" speech-impediment names like nekthuth or bothton 12:42:19 should i say (quickproject:make-project "~/my-project" :depends-on "#:ZPNG") for using zpng on quicklisp ? 12:42:40 should i say (quickproject:make-project "~/my-project" :d epends-on "#:ZPNG") for using zpng on quicklisp ? 12:42:59 colon d is laughing !!! 12:43:02 Night-Hacks: No. :depends-on should be a list. you could use :depends-on '(zpng). Also, "~/my-project/" should have a trailing slash. And if your sbcl is too old, ~ won't work. 12:43:02 -!- jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.16.77] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:47:40 Xach: The name "ZPNG" does not designate any package. 12:47:59 i've installed quick lisp also. 12:48:22 Night-Hacks: What activity prompted that error? 12:49:02 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:49:10 Xach: im going to compile your mandelbrot.lisp file 12:49:23 in zpng doc 12:50:40 Night-Hacks: You must load zpng first. 12:50:58 though quick lisp would do it. 12:51:03 thought* 12:51:11 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 12:51:52 It will work as you expect after you have ran (ql:quickload 'zpng) 12:52:18 but you only have to quickload once 12:52:32 unless you delete everything, of course 12:52:37 Night-Hacks: Quickload will manage loading systems automatically, but not loading the requirements of individual files. 12:53:13 Night-Hacks: if, for example, you created a mandelbrot.asd that expressed a dependency on zpng, and it was visible via asdf's source registry, (ql:quickload "mandelbrot") would automatically load zpng first, then compile and load mandelbrot.lisp. 12:54:24 Xach: you mean if i use ZPNG now it will load Salza itself ? 12:55:22 Night-Hacks: if you (ql:quickload "zpng") it will load all of zpng's requirements automatically. 12:55:48 got it. 12:56:36 Night-Hacks: so you are clear in your mind about the difference between file, system and package 12:57:50 splittist: yeah, clearing is in progress ... . 12:59:25 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-171-242.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:00:09 wonder why slime doesn't auto completes in file mode . 13:00:40 -!- no-name- [~no-name@11.228.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has quit [] 13:02:47 Night-Hacks: You can change the keys to do that. The normal key is C-c C-i 13:03:59 cfy` [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has joined #lisp 13:04:04 ikki [~ikki@189.247.83.58] has joined #lisp 13:04:28 -!- cfy` is now known as Guest1418 13:04:36 sellout- [~Adium@173-162-137-153-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:05:24 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:05:31 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:05:42 -!- Guest1418 is now known as cfy 13:05:43 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has quit [Changing host] 13:05:43 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 13:11:48 workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 13:12:06 uhm I'm surprised that (cl-fad:file-exists-p "/tmp) => #P"/tmp/" 13:12:38 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:12:43 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-91-57.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 13:13:07 spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-132-27.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:13:43 -!- spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-132-27.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 13:13:46 yeah, kinda strange that it does not check for fileness 13:14:00 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:14:06 On unix, directory is a subclass of file. 13:14:36 sonnym1 [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 13:14:36 cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has joined #lisp 13:14:37 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has quit [Changing host] 13:14:37 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 13:15:04 dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:15:53 -!- greaver [~DCA@94.126.185.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:16:17 that's great! 13:16:55 does not help me if i want to check if it is a file (like, a file file, not a directory file) 13:17:28 If only cl-fad provided a function like that! 13:17:42 well, it does for direcotry 13:17:46 directory even 13:19:36 consistency is overrated, anyway 13:20:18 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-91-57.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has left #lisp 13:21:11 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-wxmyydrnprossdow] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:25:10 bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.142.138] has joined #lisp 13:25:43 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757d75.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:29:53 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:37:33 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.83.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:38:42 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 13:41:53 If it makes you feel any better it exhibits the same behaviour on win32 13:42:10 where a directory probably isn't a subclass of file 13:42:59 at least it is consistent in that regard 13:43:05 Guthur: even on windows this is true ... the underlying assumptions are widely used 13:43:57 flip214: ok, I did not know that 13:44:42 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:10 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:47:44 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-dfjfdakorclzlsun] has joined #lisp 13:51:51 cbp [~cesarbp@189.139.235.145] has joined #lisp 13:52:14 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 13:53:25 -!- Night-Hacks [~amir@95.38.52.69] has left #lisp 13:55:59 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 14:00:36 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 14:01:09 *splittist* wants (ensure-application-exists (derive-specs-from-readme (write-readme :dwim t)) :tests :comprehensive :catchy-name t) 14:01:38 heh 14:02:31 *cmm* finds http://acko.net/blog/on-termkit strangely familiar 14:06:20 noob [~noob@109.239.251.4] has joined #lisp 14:06:24 i quite like the banner on that website 14:07:38 the colour scheme is not completely to my tastes, generally very good though, probably the nicest website I've seen in a while actually 14:07:50 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:08:52 hi, i discovered this pl a year ago. I got a nice interactive repl under windows with the whole docum,etation of the language and implementation + there was also a nice feature for in interpreter text rendering, nowi'm using linux and connot remember thi program name 14:09:27 emacs? 14:10:02 cmm: Commander-S? 14:11:01 noob: could be lispbox, that bundles everything together 14:11:51 i remember i could write something like (text ((color red)(font verdana)(size 6)) "text") and it rendered the text directly into the command line 14:11:52 -!- naeg [~naeg@170-18-182-46.nbiserv.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 14:12:35 splittist: don't know about that. but I was thinking about PowerShell, XMLTerm and, well, CLIM 14:13:06 -!- silenius [~silenus@p54946612.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:13:13 PowerShell is pretty niffty, XMLTerm sounds like something really painfully 14:13:27 anyway, looks like the brave new Lisp is Javascript, the brave new SEXP is JSON, and the brave new type system is MIME 14:13:41 could be a lot worse 14:15:27 anyway, which is the lisp dialect nowdays most used-popular-featured and it's linux version ? 14:15:49 ? 14:16:12 noob: Emacs lisp 14:16:22 cmm: Don Hopkins observed something like that a while ago regarding AJAX, and he remarked that the old NeWS system was the same except "the programming language is postscript, the display language is postscript, and the data language is postscript" 14:16:56 xach: NeWS? 14:17:02 NeWS! 14:17:14 ...oh that 14:17:17 heh 14:17:23 -!- noob [~noob@109.239.251.4] has quit [Quit: Sto andando via] 14:17:49 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-130-133.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:49 -!- billitch [~billitch@78.251.148.255] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:18:15 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-32-12-181.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:18:25 Well, now we have javascript. :) 14:18:49 And ridiculously fast pocket computers. 14:18:55 I agree with cmm though, it could be worse 14:19:14 also, now "we" have enough sense to not use full programming languages as data formats. or do we? 14:19:52 I think we're getting there. 14:20:12 Actually, I'm pretty happy with the javascript approach. 14:20:34 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 14:20:38 It does the right thing an overwhelming proportion of the time. 14:20:46 Zhivago: would be nice if you could read/print JSON without an external library... :) 14:21:49 Reading isn't a problem -- it's a subset of javascript. 14:22:33 And JSON is part of the ecmascript spec, so you don't need an external library. 14:22:48 is it? 14:22:49 and cl-json is a ql:quickload away! 14:23:17 But READ and WRITE are directly available, no need to quickload anything. 14:23:20 What should I use? 14:23:43 What's more, READ and WRITE discriminate more data types than JSON. 14:23:51 for arbitrary data of unknown origin? surely not READ 14:24:03 BecauseJSON is better for that kind of data? 14:24:21 Depends on who you're talking to. 14:24:24 Zhivago: I see now, in version 5. 14:24:43 JimmyRcom [~jimmy@adsl-75-53-45-212.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:45 For talking to random strangers I'd certainly pick JSON over s-exp :) 14:25:44 Random strangers want a binary XML format. I propose to start with 40, separate data items with 32, and end with 41. 14:25:51 Zhivago: the last time I used it, I guess I wasnt using that version of ECMAScript, so I had to go and get a JSON library. 14:26:06 and I remember finding that a little irritating. :) 14:27:16 Yeah. It's slowly getting more civilized. 14:28:46 now all they need is some macros, and perhaps a condition system... and continuations would be nice for cleaning up all that messy CPS-style async code. 14:28:54 macros, not some macros. 14:29:10 just strip the syntax off it and make it back into scheme. 14:29:27 Fade: still wouldn't have conditions. :) 14:29:41 you'd probably be back to s-exp as the data interchange format though 14:29:49 and then Zhivago would not be as happy 14:29:57 Why? 14:30:05 he didn't say he didn't like sexps. 14:30:11 [15:24] For talking to random strangers I'd certainly pick JSON over s-exp :) 14:30:12 json works fine in the presence of sexps. 14:30:16 When I referred to that I was referring to their use with the CL reader. 14:30:39 Guthur: read the qualification: "for talking to random strangers" 14:30:41 Which is far too eager to do terrible things. 14:30:52 Also, everyone speaks JSON. 14:30:58 Very few speak sexp. 14:31:21 I like both to fair, but everyone around me speaks XML 14:31:25 "let's talk about sexp" 14:31:34 Zhivago: that's not true. There's Rivest's SEXP library. 14:31:35 it's frightfully annoying 14:32:59 and it is used by whom? 14:33:17 Rivest. 14:33:23 billitch [~billitch@78.251.148.255] has joined #lisp 14:33:56 so lisp can talk to rivest and rivest can talk to himself? 14:34:02 (yay) 14:35:10 -!- pocket [~pocket_@p4012-ipbf1906hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:35:38 milanj [~milanj_@109-92-104-67.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 14:36:25 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.38.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:37:03 But really, guys, if lisp applications talk in XML or JSON, don't come complaining later that nobody use SEXPs. 14:37:06 I think that's covered by "very few". 14:37:14 No-one uses sexps. 14:37:38 Zhivago: that's not true: I use sexp in file format and communication protocols in all my programs. 14:37:39 -!- aerique [310225@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 14:37:39 And it's time we stopped expecting the world to be a lisp machine. 14:37:43 PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 14:37:43 -!- PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has quit [Client Quit] 14:37:45 You are no-one. 14:37:57 Since it's trivial to parse, I can provide libraries or implement the counter part for any other programming language. 14:38:00 add^_ [~add^_^@h153n4c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 14:38:19 And now for something completely different... 14:38:20 Has http://www.alproductions.org/ already been mentionned? A Robot Art Painter written in Lisp 14:38:58 but if we keep expecting the world to be a Lisp Machine maybe one day it will be 14:39:57 Guther: No, and lisp machines are a bad idea. 14:39:57 By contamination. If you develop successful (useful) applications in lisp and if it uses SEXPS in its communications, people may start parsing SEXP, and perhaps eventually they may give up and just write lisp too. 14:40:15 Guther: Much like distributed shared memory is a bad idea. 14:40:30 kai__ [~kai@e179019005.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:40:35 -!- kai__ is now known as wetnosed 14:40:43 Zhivago: they're not a bad idea, they're the starting point to an alternative from C-based processors. 14:40:45 Zhivago: the world is full of bad ideas, and they tend to catch on, look at C++ 14:40:46 pjb: Do you play the lottery? 14:40:48 Zhivago: you could say that machines nowadays are C machines, or even C++ machines 14:40:57 Zhivago: not usually. 14:40:57 pjb: Why have you omitted the most widely-deployed use of s-expressions in the world? 14:41:05 hi 14:41:15 pjb, Xach: hi 14:41:15 Xach: Which is? 14:41:20 pjb: You should -- if you keep on playing you might win, and then you could pay people to believe you. 14:41:20 Posterdati: Hi! 14:41:43 Zhivago: Yes, I could take a chance more often. 14:41:44 pjb: working on gschem file interpretation :) 14:41:54 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 14:41:54 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 14:41:54 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 14:42:04 Phoodus: No. Machines nowadays are virtual x86s. 14:42:19 pjb: IMAP! 14:42:34 phoodus: But that doesn't really matter. 14:42:38 ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.170.23] has joined #lisp 14:43:35 I'm just saying, if architectures are optimized for use by a particular language, what makes Lisp a language that is a bad idea to optimize hardware to? 14:43:50 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:44:00 Phoodus: It's not the instruction set -- but the philosophy. 14:44:24 Zhivago: right. Let's run clisp on Linux on X86 on JavaScript. Perfect philosophy! 14:44:30 ebzzry_ [~ebzzry@180.192.232.84] has joined #lisp 14:44:30 phoodus: The rest of the world went off and put hundreds of little virtual machines into one box. 14:44:35 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has joined #lisp 14:44:43 phoodus: Lisp machines put everything into one box. 14:44:52 -!- ebzzry [~ebzzry@180.192.232.84] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:45:11 Zhivago: not really. Virtual Machines still don't work correctly nowadays (Xen, VirtualBox, etc). 14:45:14 phoodus: The result was a vast disconnect in iteroperability. 14:45:16 yeah, though I'm not sure a modern "Lisp machine" would have that constraint 14:45:22 pjb: The unix process is a virtual machine. 14:45:29 Not really. 14:45:34 Yes, really. 14:45:41 pjb: why isn't it? 14:45:56 It cannot para-virtualize hardware. 14:46:08 Phoodus: Except that it hasn't, and we still have lisp systems trying to pretend to be lisp machines. 14:46:16 pjb: So what? 14:46:31 if I remember correctly, even an ANSI C program is effectively running in an isolated abstract machine. 14:46:53 Zhivago: well, you cannot have it bothways. Either you run virtual machines and machiles alike. Or you just run non-virtual-machine programs in unix. 14:47:00 Zhivago: I'm thinking more along the lines of hardware acceleration/support for GC tools, not the application assumptions of the OS 14:47:05 pjb: No. You're just confusing the issue. 14:47:16 A posix process is a machine with syscalls as part of it. 14:47:18 Why do you complain that lisp implementations are virtual lisp machines, if you're happy that unix provide virtual-machines as processes? 14:47:24 pjb: what does a virtual machine mean to you? 14:47:37 That's what defines the hardware you access, and that's all that's relevant. 14:47:55 zfx: same as for you. 14:47:55 phoodus: Largely irrelevant. 14:48:26 Zhivago: i'm sure is a mismatch of terminology 14:48:44 gor[e] [~svr@gw2.masterhost.ru] has joined #lisp 14:48:54 "lisp machine" = hardware architecture, vs "lisp machine" = software architecture 14:49:20 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.207.174] has joined #lisp 14:49:23 Phoodus: I think that the hardware architecture doesn't really matter much -- it's just a minor issue of performance at worst. 14:49:29 pjb: if you could clarify in your own words, that would help me understand your perspective. 14:49:46 zfx: the point I'm raising is that you cannot implement most applications as virtual machines because supervisors are not up to the jobs (probably because little work was done on them during the beginnings of the micro-processor age, and because those micro-processors are defective for virtualization). 14:49:55 Phoodus: The important architecture is that of programs. 14:49:59 Zhivago: correct. Hardware support means faster speeds, lower power. But one could assume Moore's law would ride that wave to a lesser extent anyway 14:50:28 I think that pjb doesn't understand what a virtual machine is. 14:50:42 He's confusing it with hypervisors. 14:50:44 Zhivago: perhaps you could offer your own definition. 14:51:02 zfx: so in practice, when you have an application that needs to use hardware (be it a serial port or a nVidia video card), you cannot run it in a virtual machine on a supervisor, you must run it on a linux running on the bare hardware. 14:51:27 zfx: the beginnings of the micro-processor age also include mainframe development... many of those were in fact "true" VM architectures by any definition 14:51:36 zfx: A dynamically generable computer. 14:51:55 Zhivago: again, if you're happy with the unix processes as VM, why do you complain about lisp implementation being lisp VM? 14:51:57 *cmm* observes the mess he provoked and slowly backs off, smiling 14:51:59 Given that for any software machine you could implement it in hardware ... 14:52:11 pjb: I'm not. 14:52:35 pjb: My observation was that lisp systems didn't use lots of VMs, and instead shoved everything into the same place. 14:52:55 cmm: I think this is a pretty interesting discussion, actually. :) 14:53:08 i.e., the image centric architecture. 14:53:32 Zhivago: this is not correct. You can implement little virtual machines without memory space separation at the lower level. You can implement virtual memory space separation in the virtual layer. 14:53:48 pjb: You're babbling -- what is not correct? 14:54:23 Zhivago: For example, I don't know if that's the case, but the x86 emulator written in JavaScript could include a PMMU, and linux running on it could provide separated virtual memory spaces. 14:54:33 pbj: Yes, and? 14:54:38 (Actually, is linux still able to run without a PMMU?) 14:54:45 pjb: Which of my claims is incorrect? 14:54:57 Zhivago: therefore your objection: " pjb: My observation was that lisp systems didn't use lots of VMs, and instead shoved everything into the same place." is not valid. 14:55:12 zfx: you mean writing lisps within lisp for "process" separation? 14:55:15 Because x86 emulators written in javascript would include those things? 14:55:21 *cmm* smells a turing completeness argument 14:55:26 Zhivago: yes. 14:55:30 Obviously. 14:55:32 pjb: You're babbling incoherently. 14:55:36 cmm: you're correct. 14:55:39 s/zfx/pjb/ :-P 14:55:49 Zhivago: this happens a lot when I discuss with you... 14:55:51 -!- el-maxo_ [~max@p5DE8C2FD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:56:02 pjb: I think it happens a lot, yes. 14:56:10 Phoodus: I think I would just have different instances of the Lisp implementation for different logical instances of whatever I was trying to run, but I am still slightly naive and new to Lisp. 14:56:16 muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:18 pjb: I suggest that you re-read your argument and try to make sense of it. 14:56:33 (zfx: yeah, I misdirected my statement) 14:57:25 Zhivago: I think it made sense. There is no boundary in a lisp machine that prevents making sub-lisp machines with any VM/API/supervisor/etc boundary you want 14:57:47 what those Lisp implementations were really running on would be neither here nor there from the perspective of my program, and interaction between those instances should be mediated in a clear and controlled way; i.e. not simply by poking around in each other's internals. I am quite found of asynchronous message passing for that. 14:58:04 but I suspect I am now starting to babble, because I'm not fully clear on what I think. 14:58:15 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:58:29 Phoodus: hardware support for MMU is not required, when you can write a processor emulator with emulated PMMU, and implement your separated address spaces above it. 14:58:30 phoodus: "My observation was that lisp systems didn't use lots of VMs" <- make it relevant to this. 14:58:47 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-dfjfdakorclzlsun] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:58:57 I didn't say that they couldn't have done so -- I said that they _didn't_. 14:59:05 Zhivago: Your observation is not relevant, because other systems don't use lots of VMs either. 14:59:12 Zhivago: so everything just ran in the same place and could poke around in each other's business? 14:59:14 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:59:19 Zhivago: (excuse my utter ignorance) 14:59:23 pjb: Pretty much every os in common use these days is process based -- posix won. 14:59:32 zfx: That was a design feature. 14:59:38 (and they don't use lots of VM, because emulators are slow, and because hardware support for virtualization is deffective). 14:59:49 zfx: And it has some good properties, particularly for lisp systems -- and it was expedient. 15:00:06 zfx: But it had historical consequences that lisp systems haven't escaped yet. 15:00:22 Zhivago: I suppose it made component integration easier. 15:00:27 pjb: Well, you're off in fairy-land. 15:00:34 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-176-90.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Offline] 15:00:46 Zhivago: would be interested in reading some documentation on those consequences. 15:01:07 zfx: Well, it leads to systems where you load everything into one big image and run there. 15:01:13 zfx: Smalltalk has the same issue. 15:01:33 Zhivago: ls has the same issue. 15:01:52 Zhivago: is that a problem if one image handles one instance of some integrated system? 15:02:28 zfx: Well, it's a problem if none of your code ever expects to talk to anything outside of its image. 15:03:00 zfx: Unix decided to go for the degenerate octet stream approach to communication. 15:03:07 Zhivago: that's where my thoughts on a well mediated way of messaging between systems might help. 15:03:15 GilbertErik [~EGarcia@user-0ccsi5d.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 15:03:42 zfx: Sure, and that's how things are going -- particularly with javascript. 15:04:04 Zhivago: so it's not a problem inherent to Lisp images, but the way they have been and are still being used. 15:04:07 ? 15:04:13 Zhivago: as for your wider complain, you can always use CL implementation in batch mode, just like gcc. clisp -c source.lisp -o source.fas, and ignore the image based aspect of those lisp VM. 15:04:40 zfx: It's a problem that comes from the privileged communication that programs in the same image share. 15:04:48 pjb: I think you're too focused on particular implementations rather than the concepts. 15:04:50 zfx: Like crack, it's hard to give up. 15:04:56 Bahman [~Bahman@2.144.222.164] has joined #lisp 15:05:15 Zhivago: I think I understand your point, now. 15:05:44 Hi all! 15:06:25 zfx: Good. :) 15:06:28 basically, you're describing the erlang messaging model. In-OS-process processes are indistinguishable from far-off foreign processes, messaging supports data structures beyond bytes 15:07:47 Zhivago: so if there were a well defined and well controlled way of Lisp images finding and communicating with each other, wherever they happened to live, you would consider that a break away from the old Lisp machines? 15:07:53 phoodus: erlang is in the right ballpark, yes. 15:07:58 Zhivago: also, in Lisp Machines, where there were multiple processes (threads), the address space was subdivised using lisp packages. If you observe better, you will see that separate applications used separate address spaces (different packages). It's just a different kind of machine, and that's also the point I'm making wrt the lisp machines. 15:08:29 pjb: In what respect is a package an address space? 15:08:54 The same name in different address spaces refer to (possibly) different objects. 15:09:08 Phoodus: of course, you do care about the local/remote distinction during the design and performance engineering processes. :) 15:09:16 Consider that a symbol name is an address. 15:09:36 zfx: I think that the essential quality is 'coherence of failure'. 15:09:43 zfx: or you let automatic heuristics take care of that ;) 15:09:50 pjb: if I wanted to run the same application twice, would they have "separate packages"? 15:10:02 Phoodus: I haven't seen anybody who has done it well. 15:10:20 Zhivago: please elaborate... 15:10:23 yes, in the field of "sufficiently advanced compiler" 15:10:30 zfx: upon application control, they could. 15:10:30 zfx: If a machine fails completely then two elements communicating within it need not consider failure of communication -- since both parties will fail simultaneously. 15:10:57 zfx: But if they're in different partitions that can fail separately then they need to consider this. 15:11:26 Zhivago: right -- but that's about well designed asynchronous systems, and reading a few Leslie Lamport papers, right? :) 15:11:36 zfx: I think this is what fundamentally defines distribution. 15:11:45 Zhivago: I totally agree with that sentiment. 15:11:46 Synchrony doesn't matter. 15:12:34 Zhivago: well, I think you can have two async processes on the same physical node, and one fails for whatever reason and becomes "silent" from the perspective of something trying to communicate with it. 15:13:07 I don't see why that would be different to two async processes partitioned across different physical nodes. 15:13:59 zfx: That's also true, but that's at a policy level rather than a communicative level. 15:14:02 but synchronous processes suggests some sort of godlike entity supervising the two processes. 15:14:06 okay. 15:14:18 I think I might be losing you a bit... 15:14:25 zfx: Consider a variable access as a message pair, for example. 15:14:40 zfx: Or a future, likewise. 15:14:50 -!- wetnosed [~kai@e179019005.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 15:15:08 zfx: I don't have to worry about it magically disappearing for no reason, for example. 15:15:25 topeak [~topeak@180.77.211.95] has joined #lisp 15:15:54 -!- sellout- [~Adium@173-162-137-153-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:15:55 Zhivago: well, if A is accessing that variable by sending a message to B, and nothing is causing A to stick around and wait for the answer, surely that might well be the case. 15:15:57 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 15:16:30 B could fail, somehow, and A never finds out the value of the variable, and has to manage that possibility. 15:16:45 zfx: (defun a 10) (+ a 2) <- I'm talking about cases like this. 15:16:59 zfx: In CL, a might become unbound -- it's true. 15:17:21 or better, (let ((a 10)) (+ a 2)) 15:17:46 since you can view local/stack variables in the same wayu 15:17:59 Zhivago: but if you turn off the machine, it doesn't matter whether A is unbound or not, because EVAL will never get to it anyway in the + expression. is that what you mean by coherence of failure? 15:18:08 zfx: Yes. 15:18:41 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:18:49 zfx: that's true even in a thread crash, for the local variable access case 15:18:51 zfx: Lisp systems have generally tried to fit the universe into a single zone of coherent failure. 15:19:00 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:19:18 Zhivago: I don't think you can necessarily fault Lisp for that. It's that way in many, many languages 15:19:23 so I understand and agree with that, although I don't see why synchronicity has nothing to do with it. I would expect that, if the partitioned elements communicated with each other in a synchronous fashion, the way you would manage failure would be very different. 15:19:38 but you're saying that's an issue of policy. 15:19:53 Phoodus: It's a historic issue that has become encoded in the structure of implementations, and to a lesser extent specification. 15:20:05 jewel [~jewel@41-133-8-113.dsl.mweb.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:20:32 right, but I don't think Lisp is necessarily singled out as a violator of working with failure boundaries 15:20:41 amongst the universe of languages out there 15:20:50 Phoodus: Who cares about that? 15:21:22 my operating definition of "distributed system" has been whether the components therein are communicating asynchronously, instead of having some deity coordinating them, but perhaps that is a faulty definition in light of what you're saying. 15:21:27 Phoodus: Jumping off a bridge in company doesn't make it any less suicidal. 15:21:54 zfx: Consider (foo) asynchronous and synchronous. 15:22:14 zfx: Either way it can operate contrary to expectation due to a bug. 15:22:28 You can consider the synchronous version to be an asynchronous message with waiting. 15:22:28 Zhivago: ok, as long as that's really what you're saying 15:23:12 Zhivago: in the former case, waiting doesn't necessary mean it failed, but simply that you didn't hear about its success. 15:23:45 Zhivago: whereas with a controlling entity, that entity would know, or in some way would be the final arbiter of whether it succeeded or not. (maybe, I'm still pondering.) 15:23:59 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:24:16 zfx: Well, it might have hung for some reason. 15:24:27 zfx: But that's not the same as failure, imho. 15:24:31 even async, you have a 'controlling entity' which is your messaging bus 15:24:40 Zhivago: I have to apologize, because I need to vanish. we should continue this discussion again, because I think there are some important things I need to understand. 15:24:48 fgump [~fgump__@188.74.82.177] has joined #lisp 15:24:50 Ok, bye. 15:24:55 ciao for now. 15:28:42 sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has joined #lisp 15:29:28 -!- Guthur [c0c1f50f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.193.245.15] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:29:48 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:31:24 -!- ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.170.23] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:31:39 ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.170.23] has joined #lisp 15:32:48 rvirding [~chatzilla@c-3c90e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:32:59 -!- chp [~chp@2001:da8:a000:155:5eff:35ff:fe0c:c3ef] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:37:01 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.42] has joined #lisp 15:38:52 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 15:39:10 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.111.232.25] has joined #lisp 15:40:10 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.207.174] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:46:20 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:47:21 -!- GilbertErik [~EGarcia@user-0ccsi5d.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: Changing server] 15:49:15 -!- jewel [~jewel@41-133-8-113.dsl.mweb.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:49:20 pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:51:43 Anyone know if there's already a function to transform a color image into greyscale 15:51:44 orivej [~orivej@host-98-146-66-217.spbmts.ru] has joined #lisp 15:51:47 or do i have to implement it 15:52:05 cbp: that's an example of one of the picture processing libraries listed in cliki.net 15:52:32 -!- ebzzry_ [~ebzzry@180.192.232.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:53:27 okies 15:53:58 cbp: It also depends on the colour model you're using. 15:54:23 Just remember that colour isn't due to light frequency. 15:54:42 It's something that our brain manufactures. 15:54:59 -!- gz_ [~gz@209-6-49-85.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 15:55:09 =o 15:55:47 -!- splittist [~splittist@77-125.1-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:56:11 (Otherwise colour constancy wouldn't work) 15:57:14 That depends on how you define color. 15:57:25 iori [~iori@110-133-45-54.rev.home.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:57:55 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:58:05 -!- topeak [~topeak@180.77.211.95] has left #lisp 15:58:05 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-33-40-18.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:20 It depends on if you define it meaningfully or as gibberish. 15:58:28 THe common definition of color is hue. Saturation and Value are additionnal parameters needed to characterize pixels, but they're not really color. 15:58:46 pale and dark are not colors. 15:58:47 -!- billitch [~billitch@78.251.148.255] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:58:51 And once again gibberish prevails. 15:59:00 They're just saturation and value points. 15:59:12 You're confusing colour with elements of a particular color model. 15:59:16 Zhivago: gibberish is what you don't understand. 15:59:29 would imago work? 15:59:29 No. Gibberish is what you tend to produce when you miss the point entirely. 15:59:35 Color models are just different vectorial space bases. 15:59:50 cbp: check the examples or tutorials. 16:00:50 Zhivago: in any case, my point is that projecting a color image to a gray level, does not depend on the base choosen to represent the pixels. 16:00:50 billitch [~billitch@78.251.148.255] has joined #lisp 16:00:53 kpreid [~kpreid@216.239.45.19] has joined #lisp 16:01:33 pjb: Pixel value doesn't determine colour. 16:02:19 Again, that's totally irrelevant. 16:03:09 No. This is entirely relevant. 16:03:18 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:03:35 How is the parameter we want to ignore, relevant in any way? 16:03:56 But you don't want to ignore it -- you want to pick a corresponding grey. 16:04:13 The problem is that you've confuse colour with hue in a hsv model. 16:04:15 That's not how yo convert a picture to gray levels. 16:04:17 HG` [~HG@p5DC05DA8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:35 You just drop the color component and keep only the luminance component. 16:04:36 It depends on if you want the correct result or not. 16:06:03 -!- ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.170.23] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:06:26 -!- pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:06:38 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.84.149] has joined #lisp 16:06:59 yeah. the eye is differently responsive to different hues, so you have to correct for that to get a good image 16:07:09 It's a complex problem that most people approach by ignoring the complexity -- but that doesn't mean that it's not there. 16:07:35 Beyond that, it's a contrastive rather than value problem. 16:08:01 pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:49 Our vision is set up to try to maintain consistent colour perception under varied lighting. 16:09:01 (And this includes greys) 16:09:59 -!- xan_ [~xan@190.Red-193-152-189.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:10:05 http://www.psy.ritsumei.ac.jp/~akitaoka/color-e.html has some nice examples. 16:10:06 More over, I object to the anthropomorphising of image processing. 16:10:15 Then you're an idiot. 16:10:20 splittist [~splittist@188.62.245.30] has joined #lisp 16:10:40 Those images are a construction of our senses. 16:10:49 -!- djinni` [~djinni`@li125-242.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:11:00 djinni` [~djinni`@li125-242.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 16:11:09 Most images are not seen, there aren't enough human eyes. 16:11:10 Sakai's colour contrast shows grey involvement. 16:11:18 Zhivago: you're hilariously unfiltered today 16:11:25 pjb: Those aren't images. 16:11:48 They're stored in files just like the images you see. 16:11:59 pjb: you gave me the procedure to compile a Lisp file to execute it directly from shell. What if I'd like to pass parameters to this program??? 16:12:19 but if you want to get into the nitty-gritty of human vision, there are about 12 separate kinds of preprocessing, including edge detection, before it even gets to the brain 16:12:24 pjb: They contain the information required to produce something that a human can perceive as an image. 16:12:25 Posterdati: you should probably not do that. 16:12:35 pjb: no I need it 16:12:44 pjb: A dog or fish would perceive them differently. 16:12:44 Posterdati: most implementations have a list corresponding to the arguments 16:13:02 Posterdati: do you use SBCL? 16:13:14 pjb: solve_problem netlist_file_name.net start_time stop_time steps debug-mode 16:13:18 Xach: yes 16:13:33 There's a reason most images are stored as RGB and not some other colors 16:13:36 Posterdati: i use http://xach.com/lisp/buildapp/ for that. 16:13:49 Xach: thanks 16:14:02 dlowe: Really? I'd guess that there are more jpegs than anything else. 16:14:05 dlowe: the reason is that the devices used to reproduce it (screens) use those parameters. 16:14:37 Posterdati: you can tell it to run a particular function when the program starts, and that program is passed the argv list. 16:14:38 Are there any lisps out there that use a truly threaded garbage collector? 16:14:41 err, that function, rather. 16:14:43 dlowe: when you work with different devices, you use different color models. Egl CMYK when you do quadrichromic printing. 16:15:23 pjb: there's a reason screens use those parameters :p 16:15:36 CMYK is due to ink chemistry and subtractive color additions 16:15:40 dlowe: that's only a question of technology, of how the device works. 16:15:57 dlowe: for example, an electronic ink screen would use CMYK too. 16:16:01 no, it's not. The human eye is most responsive to red green and blue 16:16:31 and CMYK is just built on subtracting red, green, or blue 16:16:51 so you get the best color simulations by using different values of those colors and having the eye interpolate 16:16:54 Too bad you're ignoring the 4% of human eyes sensible to close ultra violet too, and the 0.2% sensible to infrared. 16:17:08 yes, we don't care about them. 16:17:19 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.160.187] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:17:21 because they're totally irrelevant to image encodings 16:17:32 or television screens 16:17:33 Xach: very useful indeed 16:17:35 dlowe: again, that's wrong. 16:17:46 take it up with the pope 16:17:49 dlowe: astronomical images may have more than three channels. 16:18:02 -!- gor[e] [~svr@gw2.masterhost.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:18:03 That's because the physical phenomenon is not reduced to the limits of human eyes. 16:18:20 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:18:27 indeed. But in that case you're using false coloration to bring them into the realm of our perception anyway 16:18:53 dlowe: again, most of those images are not even seen by human eyes. They're processed algorithmically. 16:19:12 weren't we talking about grayscale conversion here? 16:19:19 pjb: Where is the taste of a lemon? 16:19:32 Zhivago: there's a chemical formula. 16:19:58 pjb: That formula isn't the taste. 16:20:35 Zhivago: in plato's world of ideals. duh. 16:20:41 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:20:48 Zhivago: you can define a dual vocabulary if that makes you happier. I prefer to consider that there is an objective reality. 16:21:13 pjb: There's nothing wrong with an objective reality -- but that formula won't show you the taste of a lemon. 16:21:27 pjb: The taste is in an interaction. 16:21:40 Sure, you can write an algorithm or an ANN that will tell you what taste a given chemical has. 16:21:42 pjb: This is what you're not grasping. 16:21:57 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-156-48.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:00 pjb: How will an algorithm show you what a lemon tastes like? 16:22:20 Same as you explain somebody who has never tasted a lemon. 16:22:44 pjb: By poor analogy? 16:22:56 And again, we're discussing external data structure, qualia doesn't have to enter the picture, pun intended. 16:23:08 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.8.156.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:23:23 pjb: The problem is that colour is like taste -- it isn't external data structure. 16:23:49 pjb: Until you realize that, you can't communicate meaningfully. 16:23:52 I'm saying that color is a physical phenomenon, qualia non-withstanding. 16:24:02 pjb: It isn't. 16:24:12 :p opticl installation procedure is a simple ql:quickload 16:24:20 (You're right that it's not a single frequency, but it's close enough: it's a frequency spectrum). 16:24:28 but ql says it doesn't exist what's up with that 16:24:33 pjb: No, it isn't. 16:24:46 pjb: Colour doesn't depend on light frequency. 16:24:53 cbp: that may occur when the package cannot be loaded on a given implementation (#-your-implem). 16:25:03 :( 16:25:25 pjb: what's the light frequency of magenta? 16:25:27 Zhivago: and again, what you call Colour that doesn't depend on light frequency is irrelevant to converting a picture to gray. 16:25:37 dlowe: spectrum! 16:26:11 cbp: What did you try to quickload? 16:26:11 cbp: check the sources, sometimes they restrict the implementation only because they've not tested yours. It might still work. 16:26:25 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@webuds163-103.rz.uni-saarland.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:26:30 somebody finally ported the clim listener concept to the unix shell. http://acko.net/blog/on-termkit (only very slightly related) 16:26:31 eg. cells has not #+ccl, but it works perfectly on ccl. 16:26:42 Xach, opticl 16:26:47 pjb: Yes, it is -- because it determines the perceived illuminacy. 16:27:06 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.41.182.93.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Quit: sleeping] 16:27:34 cbp: what message did you get as a result? 16:27:37 fmeyer_ [~fmeyer@189.111.232.25] has joined #lisp 16:27:49 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:28:00 antifuchs: where's the courier :( 16:28:07 System "opticl" not found 16:28:12 pjb: How light or dark something appears depends on its visual context -- not on individual pixel values. 16:28:19 cbp: try (ql:update-all-dists) first. 16:28:52 Basically, what we have is a captor where the luminance is spread over different captor elements, and what we want is to recover the original luminance received. The formula has only to take into account the way the projection is done. The human eyes doesn't enter in the picture, and the brain even less. 16:29:13 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c-3c90e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 16:29:39 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-wslkployyoaouzgd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:30:01 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:30:08 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-zghctilzovtzkiov] has joined #lisp 16:30:25 I did and it worked now Xach, thanks 16:30:45 cbp: excellent 16:30:56 on to world domination now 16:31:08 pjb: Then you do not understand colour or perception. 16:32:11 jweiss [~user@cpe-069-134-063-238.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:32:18 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:33:09 -!- poindontcare [~user@cloudbovina.bovinasancta.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:33:10 Zhivago: I understand it better than you. Color is a property of light. You seem to believe that color is a property of material objects. 16:34:59 pjb: Do you know what 'colour constancy' is? 16:35:04 Yes. 16:35:14 e-user1 [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-goteucdnbvkegegg] has joined #lisp 16:35:15 pjb: Explain it in a sentence. 16:35:43 i know, i know: "color constancy is off-topic" 16:36:03 you guys are really confusing me 16:36:10 The brain is able to interpret the color of the light it perceives so that an unnamed attribute of the materials from which the light comes remains constant. 16:36:12 -!- jweiss is now known as jweiss-lunch 16:36:21 pjb: No. 16:36:34 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:36:36 tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:36:50 Notice that it does so contextually. If you let it see only a pixel, it won't be able to recover the original attribute value. 16:36:51 pjb: Colour constancy is what allows us to see the same color when the quality of the light changes. 16:36:55 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-195.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:36:58 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-zghctilzovtzkiov] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:37:15 Zhivago: this is exactly what I've said. You seem to have difficulties understanding me. 16:37:19 if anyone would like to learn more about the colour of perception, Goldsmiths offers an undergraduate degree called "Creative Computing", one module of it is my lecture course on perception, signals and multimedia information retrieval 16:37:27 pjb: It's what lets us see the same shade of blue under different lighting conditions, where the frequency of the light has shifted significantly. 16:37:42 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 16:37:49 pjb: And this is why color cannot be a property of light. 16:37:52 Zhivago: and it is irrelevant to the pixel maps. 16:38:30 Zhivago: the unnamed property of the material is not a property of light. You should not name it "color". 16:38:43 We definitely need two words here. 16:39:00 I propose colour :D 16:39:11 pjb: It isn't a properly of material. 16:39:22 Sure it's a property of the material. 16:39:31 You're rather inconsistent... 16:39:42 pjb: If so, colour constancy would not work -- think it over. 16:39:46 bbl 16:40:36 o_O 16:40:52 I highly recommend reading C.S. Rhodes with S. Rauchas, "Creative Computing II: interactive multimedia (vol. 2: Perception, animation and information retrieval)." and references therein 16:41:02 available from all good departmental websites 16:41:18 I don't have access :( 16:42:49 what a shameful self-promotion! 16:43:04 Maybe it's another C.S. Rhodes? 16:43:04 No shame if it's good. 16:43:11 -!- fmeyer_ [~fmeyer@189.111.232.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:43:19 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.111.232.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:45:09 Xach: got problem with buildapp and ql... :) 16:45:27 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-34-220.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 16:46:03 Younder [~john@41.202.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 16:46:12 -!- pnq [~nick@172.162.31.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:46:31 http://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/teaching/cc227/2009-10/cc227-vol2.pdf # direct link should work 16:46:34 Posterdati: what's up? 16:46:36 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-34-220.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has left #lisp 16:46:49 dunno if it's actually any good. 16:46:54 Google beat you :-) 16:46:59 Krystof: It's readable. 16:48:20 But still, we have here two different approaches. Either you play tricks in the sole objective of feeding human senses, or you're trying to compute some physical grandeur from data obtained from physical sensors. 16:49:24 kk 16:50:19 ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.170.23] has joined #lisp 16:51:47 OliverUv_ [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has joined #lisp 16:51:47 -!- OliverUv_ [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has quit [Client Quit] 16:55:49 spiaggia` [~user@113.161.72.9] has joined #lisp 16:57:05 -!- e-user1 [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-goteucdnbvkegegg] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:58:27 limetree [~simon@c-23e8e155.1226-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:59:13 -!- spiaggia [~user@113.161.72.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:01:32 tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 17:02:09 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 17:04:01 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:06:22 -!- cbp [~cesarbp@189.139.235.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:06:48 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-217-62.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:06:54 cbp [~cesarbp@189.139.131.80] has joined #lisp 17:08:54 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has left #lisp 17:11:32 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:12:18 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:20 gor[e] [~svr@gw2.masterhost.ru] has joined #lisp 17:20:10 -!- sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:23:15 rookievoice [~user@hoas-fe3ddd00-245.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 17:24:21 -!- rookievoice is now known as lony 17:25:17 -!- jweiss-lunch is now known as jweiss 17:25:42 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:26:02 sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has joined #lisp 17:26:42 -!- jweiss is now known as jweiss-testing 17:26:54 -!- jweiss-testing is now known as jweiss 17:28:16 silenius [~silenus@p54946612.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:41 poindont` [~user@cloudbovina.bovinasancta.com] has joined #lisp 17:31:20 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 17:31:51 sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 17:32:00 -!- lony [~user@hoas-fe3ddd00-245.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.50.1] 17:34:51 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 17:35:14 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Client Quit] 17:36:51 -!- strlen [~alex@behemoth.strlen.net] has quit [Quit: switching to erc] 17:37:04 ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 17:39:17 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-217-62.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:40:58 -!- Krystof [~csr21@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:41:01 lony [~user@hoas-fe3ddd00-245.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 17:41:03 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 17:42:55 jewel [~jewel@41-133-8-113.dsl.mweb.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:43:43 does lispworks stop all threads to run its GC? The docs don't seem to explicitly say so 17:44:39 i think i saw that in their docs, it would be strange that is some other solution ... 17:45:12 There are multithreaded garbage collection algorithms. 17:45:26 the only thing I saw in their GC section (and from skimming the thread section) is to hit it about how many threads are going to come & go 17:45:31 s/hit/hint/ 17:45:50 due to direct allocation of stack space in old-generation space 17:46:12 pjb: any lisps that implement them that you're aware of? 17:46:31 there are indeed multithreaded (parallel/concurrent, with various meanings of those words) garbage collection algorithms, but LispWorks doesn't implement any of them, nor does any other CL implementation 17:46:32 (as discussed at ELS recently) 17:46:46 ah, ok :-/ 17:46:56 hoping it would be an issue to throw money at to solve 17:47:03 Phoodus: I'm not aware of any. Looks like CL implementers are rather conservative. 17:47:09 most likely getting killed on GC halting threads to do its thing 17:47:41 Phoodus: it is, but nobody is throwing money at it 17:47:45 as much of it is pure functional code, for mvcc stuff, I pour through a lot of memory 17:48:24 hence lots of cores, lots of GCs, little overal utilization 17:48:45 (again, educated estimation) 17:50:15 pjb, there are but i dont know for common lisp implementation doing that (except abcl) 17:50:34 running an old single-threaded version, just as memory-hungry, it only spent about 3-7% of the time in GC, according to (time) 17:50:45 so I wasn't worried about it then. Lesson learned :-P 17:51:18 milanj: I presume abcl inherits that feature from the JVM? 17:52:13 i think so 17:52:55 oh, that's cute. Here I'm wondering why SBCL keeps hanging during tests, and it's just that QSHOW helpfully stops every 5000 traps, asking me whether I'd really like to see "More? [y]". 17:52:56 -!- Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@1807ds2-noe.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:54:19 anxt [~user@64.141.19.175] has joined #lisp 17:56:37 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:57:43 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 17:57:44 sacho [~sacho@95-42-83-175.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 17:57:50 Night-Hacks [~amir@95.38.52.69] has joined #lisp 18:00:52 5B5B5B 18:00:59 -!- sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has left #lisp 18:01:17 sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 18:01:45 -!- sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:02:38 spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-132-27.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:02:47 -!- jewel [~jewel@41-133-8-113.dsl.mweb.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 18:04:46 ikki [~ikki@189.247.83.58] has joined #lisp 18:07:42 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-216-94.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:07:53 jewel [~jewel@41-133-8-113.dsl.mweb.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:09:22 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757d75.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:15 -!- workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:12:05 Phoodus: you can throw money at this problem. 18:12:17 I'm sure you can find someone who'd have at it, given sponsoring. 18:12:29 manuel_ [~manuel_@pD9FDCD82.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:44 -!- manuel_ [~manuel_@pD9FDCD82.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:12:48 -!- ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.170.23] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:12:53 manuel_ [~manuel_@pD9FDCD82.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:40 -!- manuel_ [~manuel_@pD9FDCD82.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 18:14:25 -!- _3b [foobar@72.179.19.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:16:01 -!- |3b| [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:19:17 mishoo [~mishoo@95.76.233.86] has joined #lisp 18:20:45 -!- spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-132-27.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 18:21:54 -!- tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Quit: gone] 18:22:58 -!- Night-Hacks [~amir@95.38.52.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:24:24 pkhuong: I said that in terms of looking to go into the commercial lisps, if it could bring that advantage 18:24:55 I wonder if pausing all threads, then having the GC itself be multithreaded would assist core usage well enough 18:25:04 that doesn't require any trickery of read/write barriers 18:25:42 perhaps it would be better to just have a core, giving it items that went out of scope, to check whether they're dead? 18:26:04 What I want to say is that I'd prefer to have some constant load in the background, instead of spikes 18:26:14 that's easier to deal with, in the sense of planning 18:26:49 for my problem, I don't really care about the spikes, as long as the system overall can stay pinned 18:27:11 but that's an interesting idea as well. Not sure how feasible it is without barriers 18:27:27 workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 18:27:45 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@95.76.233.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:29:11 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:29:13 why that obsession about barriers? I assume you don't mean memory read/write barriers, do you? 18:30:07 any synchronization operations on read or write. Page faults are reasonable I guess 18:30:21 as they're low overhead in the non-colliding case 18:31:07 but something like a GC-runs-multiple-threads doesn't require low-level MMU integration, and can be done from purely existing lisp implementation tools 18:31:34 alama [~alama@86.93.35.187] has joined #lisp 18:31:36 granted, I'm not super up on the latest MT GC techniques 18:32:57 Phoodus: one of the simplest schemes I've seen just forks. 18:36:17 what does it do with the forked process? 18:36:50 marking. 18:37:54 mark and sweep gc ? 18:39:28 if you want concurrency, moving data around usually isn't a good idea. 18:42:59 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:43:08 most of it is read-only data for multi-thread analysis 18:43:15 but I generate a lot of it 18:43:41 very little mutation going on, and going to reduce what's in there significantly in the next few versions 18:44:25 nixfreak [~nixfreak@mn-10k-dhcp1-3174.dsl.hickorytech.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:50 lanthan [~ze@ip-2-201-33-59.web.vodafone.de] has joined #lisp 18:45:05 lisp implementation that is for making scalable distributed programs 18:46:31 What is SBCL? 18:47:24 really ? 18:47:25 -!- lanthan [~ze@ip-2-201-33-59.web.vodafone.de] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 18:47:38 I don't need a 3rd party module 18:47:59 using clozure cl right now 18:48:26 lanthan [~ze@ip-2-201-33-59.web.vodafone.de] has joined #lisp 18:50:34 pedrosans [c916f9d8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.201.22.249.216] has joined #lisp 18:50:39 ericklc [~ikki@189.247.103.171] has joined #lisp 18:50:55 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.83.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:51:34 ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.170.23] has joined #lisp 18:51:58 -!- cbp [~cesarbp@189.139.131.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:51:59 Hi all, someone knows an function to create differeations? Don't need to be symbolic 18:52:11 o_O? 18:52:16 you mean algebraic? 18:52:26 I'm using (defun deriv (fn) (let ((dx 1/1000000000)) #'(lambda (x) (/ (- (funcall fn (+ x dx)) (funcall fn x)) dx)))) 18:52:40 but it is working only for integer numbers 18:52:54 Phoodus: actually, there's one implementation that probably has a very good multithreaded garbage collector: it's Scieneer CL. 18:53:26 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.142.138] has quit [Quit: bsod1] 18:54:27 pedrosans: you probably don't want to do that with rationals. 18:54:40 -!- HG` [~HG@p5DC05DA8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:54:45 Phoodus: or perhaps not. http://www.scieneer.com/scl/doc/gc.html 18:54:46 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:54:55 rme [~rme@50.43.135.196] has joined #lisp 18:55:27 pjb: yeah, just saw that 18:56:11 for those who know the guts of sbcl, does the idea of a GC that uses multiple threads in its operation to divide up the scan & copy workloads sound tractable? 18:57:05 I presume the size of generation 0 would be increased to gain advantage, as opposed to trying to multithread a tiny chunk of work 18:57:45 I'm using common lisp, it is not rationals friendly, if you type: (+ 2.3 4.1) you get: 6.3999996 I know that the in memory representation of floating point numbers have limitations, but in other langes we have some work arounds 18:57:54 like the BigDecimal type in Java 18:58:04 you're not using rationals in your examples 18:58:05 you're talking nonsense 18:58:12 pedrosans: CL is very rational friendly. Write: (+ 23/10 41/10) 18:58:13 in fact, you're using single floats. 18:58:41 (+ 2.3d0 4.1d0) might perform closer to your expectations, but really, your expections probably need fixing. 18:59:06 pedrosans: to process user provided data, you may want to parse your rational yourself, to accept the nnn.nnn syntax instead of nnnn/dddd. 18:59:28 HG` [~HG@p579F7355.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:49 -!- sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:03:41 pkhuong, pjb: thanks guys! the fraction representation works like a charm 19:04:08 charms don't work 19:04:27 Only spells do. 19:04:40 *Phoodus* uses M-x butterfly-mode 19:05:41 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:06:28 surely, you mean M-x butterfly 19:08:32 I prefer M-x capitalism, where I make other programmers devote their energy to producing products that I grow rich of 19:09:12 Landr: is there a vim plugin for that? 19:09:14 rme_ [~rme@50.43.146.58] has joined #lisp 19:09:18 Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:09:58 -!- rme [rme@DDFC8691.80B03224.699BA7A6.IP] has quit [Ping timeout] 19:09:59 -!- rme_ is now known as rme 19:10:59 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.135.196] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:10:59 -!- rme_ is now known as rme 19:11:16 nope, but i'll send a consultant over to discuss making one! 19:11:20 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.146.58] has left #lisp 19:12:14 Landr: http://dilbert.com/fast/2007-07-08/ 19:12:19 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-130-133.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:12:21 Night-Hacks [~amir@95.38.52.69] has joined #lisp 19:12:35 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:12:51 And http://dilbert.com/strips/2004-02-05/ too 19:12:53 -!- Night-Hacks [~amir@95.38.52.69] has left #lisp 19:12:58 -!- jewel [~jewel@41-133-8-113.dsl.mweb.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:14:22 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 19:15:35 Night-Hacks1 [~amir@95.38.52.69] has joined #lisp 19:15:47 urandom_ [~user@p548A51D7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:28 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A7EBD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:17:34 stis [~stis@host-78-79-232-224.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 19:17:37 -!- pedrosans [c916f9d8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.201.22.249.216] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:22:48 how do I interpret the [ Run times consist of N seconds GC time, and M seconds of non-GC time. ] on a multicore system? 19:23:39 on a 4-core box, the total runtime for (sleep 1) is 7.62sec, "real time" is 5.151sec 19:23:39 run time is not real time. 19:23:50 On a multicore system, real time < run-time. 19:24:23 I'm trying to figure out ratios of GC time spent, especially if the GC is singlethreaded 19:24:48 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@143.93.249.53] has joined #lisp 19:24:50 N/M 19:24:53 and is (time (sleep 1)) while a bunch of background threads are cranking sensible for seeing how busy the GC is for that slice of time? 19:24:54 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-156-160.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 19:24:59 or N/(N+M) 19:25:03 nikodemus` [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:26:39 plus, during that time top is reporting only about 50% cpu utilization overall, even though "run time" is much larger than 4x wall-time 19:27:10 minion: memo for slyrus: cvs up and short-form defsetf should look nicer 19:27:17 no minion? bah 19:27:28 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:27:31 (/ 7.62 5.151) --> 1.4793244030285382 that's not much larger. 19:27:43 nikodemus`: optimist! 19:28:35 4x wall time = 4.00sec 19:28:54 reported runtime is almost double that, when the CPUs aren't even pinned 19:29:17 sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has joined #lisp 19:29:18 Well then that answers your question whether (time (sleep 1)) is sane... 19:29:52 not really, since I don't know how to interpret the scale of the numbers relative to wall time, number of cores, CPU utilization, or if they're sensible to look at those at all 19:32:53 Yes. Assuming you have 4 cores, there's no way to cumulate 7.62 sec of run time within one second of wall time. Therefore (sleep 1) returned after more than one second of wall time, therefore your results are meaningless. 19:33:36 eyeballing the clock, it took very close to 1sec of wall time 19:33:46 Now, perhaps you don't have 4 cores, but 8 cores. In which case, that would be more meaningful. 19:33:58 cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:19 it's not hyperthreading 19:34:23 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:34:59 -!- Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:35:33 ok, I take back my claim of 1sec of walltime 19:35:39 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@143.93.249.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:35:44 Maybe it took future time, or historical time as well? 19:37:14 it seems that as a coarse estimation, GC time + (non-gc time)/4 = real time 19:37:35 which is basically what I'm asking is the sense of these numbers on 4 cores 19:37:56 -!- Evious [~n_a@s64-180-62-209.bc.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:38:17 (a _very_ coarse estimation) 19:39:23 that woud imply that for 3.270sec GC, 4.350sec non-GC, around 3/4ths of real time is taken up by GC 19:40:04 on which workload? 19:41:04 threadpools matching the number of CPU cores kept totally busy, plus other IO threads 19:41:38 Been watching the SICP lectures - carefully this time (not skimming). This'll sound like a brash statement; but I think everyone in compsci should/should have done this class. 19:42:07 Correct. 19:42:33 Skimming I thought they were a pretty good intro to some concepts/techniques/language stuff. Listening closely, they're profound. 19:43:03 *Phoodus* pheeds afk 19:44:03 educated confirmation/denigration of my assumed implication would be appreciated in the meantime ;) 19:44:07 derrida [~derrida@unaffiliated/deleuze] has joined #lisp 19:44:36 -!- ericklc [~ikki@189.247.103.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:46:37 -!- ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.170.23] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:47:45 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.30.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:48:13 Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:28 Phoodus: sounds fine ... if 400% CPU load in 2 sec on 4 cores results in 8 CPU secs, it work out to a result 19:49:28 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-194-195.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:50:19 brodo_ [~brodo@p5B02502A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:01 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:52:21 hi is there any concept or something behind :writer in this code ? (image-data :initarg :image-data :reader image-data :writer (setf %image-data)) 19:52:41 especially %image-data 19:53:16 -!- brodo [~brodo@p5B0255CC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:53:16 -!- brodo_ is now known as brodo 19:53:16 There are always concepts. 19:53:19 What's your question? 19:53:53 this line (setf %image-data) is misunderstood ! 19:54:06 First, notice that (setf x) is a function name. 19:54:27 ok 19:54:43 If a function named (setf x) exist, then (setf (x ...) v) can expand to (funcall (function (setf x)) v ...) 19:55:02 So those functions named (setf x) are setters used by setf. 19:56:13 defclass generates generic functions and methods for the accessors, readers and writers, but otherwise don't care, and will generate a setter method. 19:56:27 You can (defun (setf x) ...) or (defmethod (setf x) ...). 19:57:05 Now, the reason why there's a :reader and a :writer with a name prefixed by % is because the author wants to mean that the writer is private. 19:57:12 -!- lanthan [~ze@ip-2-201-33-59.web.vodafone.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 19:57:32 (symbols whose name starts with a % are, by convention, private). 19:58:00 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl14-72-38.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 19:58:28 ericklc [~ikki@200.95.162.228] has joined #lisp 19:59:36 Ok 20:02:58 sellout- [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:16 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:06:42 colinh [~colin@p57B1F049.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:43 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-195.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:07:05 -!- fgump [~fgump__@188.74.82.177] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:08:09 -!- Night-Hacks1 [~amir@95.38.52.69] has left #lisp 20:09:21 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:10:02 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 20:11:12 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@vpnsh0024.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 20:19:04 flip214: yeah, except that's not the case 20:19:40 5.15sec total CPU secs 20:20:08 no-name- [~no-name@11.228.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has joined #lisp 20:20:19 anyway, i'm on to other things 20:20:52 -!- joast [~rick@CPE-76-178-178-72.natnow.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:21:37 _3b [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:23:41 Forgive my forgetfulness - are let* and let equivalent/interchangeable for a single binding? 20:23:46 -!- Bahman [~Bahman@2.144.222.164] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:23:50 yes 20:24:10 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 20:24:33 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@vpnsh0024.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:25:01 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-234-169-164.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:18 -!- sonnym1 [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:27:57 -!- HG` [~HG@p579F7355.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:30:46 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 20:30:47 -!- ericklc [~ikki@200.95.162.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:30:57 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 20:31:05 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:31:28 I'm using (sort *some-var* ...) in a place, and where that gets called (let ((*some-var* (make-array 5 ...)))) 20:31:32 Now I get The value #() is not of type LIST. 20:31:56 I'm not entirely sure that this is the cause, but is such a problem known about SBCL? (wrong type inference during compilation?) 20:33:11 What's the function to convert an array into a list? 20:33:28 o_O you can't 20:33:28 can you describe the code and the problem more accurately? 20:33:30 flip214: coerce. 20:33:33 well, you can 20:33:42 ah yes, thanks 20:33:42 but... why would you use an array in the first place then? 20:34:04 flip214: Yeah, maybe paste your code so we can see where there might be a problem. 20:34:34 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:35:01 Landr: because the typical case means 2 or 3 values; more than 5 would be highly unusual, so I'm saving a bit on gc 20:35:12 sellout-: would have to try to clean it up. 20:35:52 Hmm, the coerce helped 20:35:54 xan_ [~xan@190.Red-193-152-189.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:12 -!- lony [~user@hoas-fe3ddd00-245.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.50.1] 20:36:32 -!- Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:36:34 still, paste your code, because it sounds fishy 20:39:03 trying to find the essential bits 20:42:21 ah, no ... sort returns the same type as it got, right? then I'll have to change the iter clause .... 20:42:29 it's not the input to sort, but it's output 20:42:36 right 20:42:50 keep in mind that sorts also distorts the input sequence 20:42:55 s/sorts/sort/ 20:43:59 that's no problem, the array gets purged there anyway 20:44:55 (setf (fill-pointer *acc-var*) 0) 20:45:08 suncica2222 [dfgfdgdfgd@P1-126.internet.krstarica.com] has joined #lisp 20:45:14 Now I've just got to fix some ordinary bugs 20:45:55 'night! 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21:33:01 Kruppe [~user@CPE00222d128ba2-CM00222d128b9e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:33:12 varjag [~eugene@162.163.9.46.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:34:39 hello beach 21:35:28 -!- sabalabas [~sabalaba@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:35:51 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 21:36:11 nikodemus pasted "aligning keywords: good or bad?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122103 21:36:32 I want that for concatenate 21:36:48 also for format 21:37:10 nikodemus`: Good. 21:38:17 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:38:33 -!- workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:38:43 -!- aperturefever [20164@ninthfloor.org] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:38:47 aperturefever` [20164@ninthfloor.org] has joined #lisp 21:38:51 mcstar [~mcstar@adsl-89-132-6-181.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 21:38:53 -!- aperturefever` is now known as aperturefever 21:39:35 -!- ericklc [~ikki@189.139.95.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:39:36 hi all 21:40:03 can somebody point me to a quad-tree implementation in cl? 21:40:13 nikodemus`: I like that style 21:40:48 mcstar: Once upon a time, I wrote one in C++, but I never rewrote it in Lisp. 21:40:48 21:41:07 how much work was it? 21:41:37 nikodemus`: I like it too. However, for make-instance, I frequently align the keywords under the first `a' in make-instance. 21:44:48 is it possible to extend loop to add sugar for my own data structures? 21:44:56 Kruppe: No. 21:45:00 francogrex [~user@109.130.147.244] has joined #lisp 21:45:10 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.147.244] has quit [Client Quit] 21:45:33 Doesn't Krystof's spatial-trees include quad-trees? 21:45:33 beach: hmm that's too bad, oh well. 21:45:48 Kruppe: maybe iterate can do what you want, although I don't know that system well. 21:46:10 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 21:46:13 some LOOPs are extensibl 21:46:17 Fade: I've heard people talk about that before, is it used very much? 21:46:21 (the xerox one is, I believe) 21:46:30 but iterate is definitely extensible 21:46:48 Kruppe: well, yes. it's used rather a lot considering that loop is built right into the language. 21:46:55 several projects use it; I think it's a bit better than loop in some places. but often the difference is negligible (: 21:47:20 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 21:47:39 antifuchs: Alright, well I'll give that a shot then. 21:47:42 thanks 21:48:29 beach: is it on cliki? 21:48:31 ok, aligning keywords in now in slime cvs 21:48:47 sabalabas [~sabalaba@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:56 mcstar: I don't know, but it is in quicklisp. 21:49:00 cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 21:49:09 Xach: slime cvs now does TRT with with-canvas -- my first fix was wrong 21:49:14 carlocci [~nes@93.37.206.134] has joined #lisp 21:49:52 nikodemus`: i'm too late for the party, but i like that way too 21:50:56 ericklc [~ikki@189.247.110.1] has joined #lisp 21:51:12 stassats: good to know :) 21:52:03 ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:52:38 ill try quicklisp 21:52:41 thx 21:52:49 -!- mcstar [~mcstar@adsl-89-132-6-181.monradsl.monornet.hu] has left #lisp 21:53:54 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-155-62.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:34 stassats annotated #122018 "indenting macros" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122018#5 21:54:45 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 21:55:14 http://paste.lisp.org/display/122106 21:55:22 trying to connect clsql to mysql database I get that error 21:55:31 any ideas? 21:55:32 *stassats* tries to shovel as more as possible bugs to nikodemus`, before fixing them himslef 21:56:40 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-140-134.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:56:43 stassats: did you see my first cut at Xach's with-canvas complaint? 21:56:54 although this advising by putting specs into common-lisp-indent-function is horribly broken 21:57:06 indeed 21:57:12 (because of different packages) 21:57:24 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 21:57:33 it might work well for cl symbols 21:57:33 the style work i'm doign adds hash-tables so multiple styles can be supported 21:58:02 adding some sort of partial package mapping should be possible 21:59:25 i'm thinking about replacing it with a hash-table which would store symbol-package, and then trying to see whether the symbol is accessible in the current package 21:59:59 sounds reasonable 22:00:12 it would be even better if indentation was done completely on cl-side 22:00:37 too much talk on the wire 22:00:42 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:00:56 sometimes you indent code that's one another server 22:01:01 on, even 22:01:43 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-216-94.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:01:50 and about with-canvas, no, i haven't seen it 22:02:03 it was the same issue 22:02:15 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757d75.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:02:18 so, it's in cvs, right? 22:02:21 but happily my keyword fix applied there as well, so it got a free ride 22:02:28 your case has no suck luck 22:03:55 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-154-65.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:13 -!- Krystof [~csr21@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:04:17 my thinking for your case is that to fix that (&rest args) case you need to #1 add an indentation marker to the elisp side that means "indent this form as if it was data" -- &data or something -- and #2 you need to make swank:macro-indentation walk the arglist and construct a better indentation spec 22:05:48 there's even swank:print-indentation-lossage 22:07:19 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-155-62.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:07:21 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 22:07:24 -!- cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:08:40 sonnym1 [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:09:03 *stassats* gives up on understanding indentation specification for today 22:09:42 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:13:13 silenius_ [~silenus@p549461FA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:24 -!- stis [~stis@host-78-79-232-224.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:15:03 -!- silenius [~silenus@p54946612.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:16:46 -!- Kruppe [~user@CPE00222d128ba2-CM00222d128b9e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:17:41 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:23:24 stassats: still there? 22:25:28 -!- varjag [~eugene@162.163.9.46.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:25:34 nikodemus annotated #122018 "works for the couple of cases i tried" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122018#6 22:26:29 stassats: if you can patch your slime with that and let me know if it does anything unexpected, that would be much appreciated 22:26:39 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:27:03 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:28:34 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 22:28:42 fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 22:29:14 pnq [~nick@AC81CFBA.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 22:29:29 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:29:34 -!- silenius_ [~silenus@p549461FA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:31:04 -!- fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Client Quit] 22:31:23 fe[nl]ix [~quassel@2a01:4f8:101:4221::2] has joined #lisp 22:32:20 -!- fe[nl]ix [~quassel@2a01:4f8:101:4221::2] has quit [Client Quit] 22:33:45 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:38 fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] 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