00:01:36 -!- xan_ [~xan@190.Red-193-152-189.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:01:53 is it possible to restart your lisp process in slime? 00:02:05 yes 00:02:12 just do M-x slime again 00:02:20 <_3b> ,restart-inferior-lisp 00:02:28 it will ask for a new connection or a new inferior-lisp.... 00:02:38 thanks 00:02:45 wasn't sure if that would do it 00:05:09 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:07:21 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:15:05 wayne: if you're still casting about for ideas, I've been happily using VIlisp to combine Vim and CL for a few years now: http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=221 00:15:34 jfleming, thank you very much 00:28:03 Triplefault [~Mouse@adsl-72-145-220-220.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:34 -!- Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:35:09 xinming_ [~hyy@115.221.11.210] has joined #lisp 00:37:43 -!- xinming [~hyy@122.238.72.24] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:38:29 Vutral [ZCKuM8Pb77@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 00:41:00 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:42:17 rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 00:43:25 chp [~chp@2001:da8:a000:155:5eff:35ff:fe0c:c3ef] has joined #lisp 00:45:07 bobertlo [~robert@user-38q4b4r.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 00:45:53 WarWeasle [~brad@c-98-220-114-168.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:47:08 -!- pnq [~nick@AC8399DA.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:48:00 -!- cbp [~cesarbp@189.139.219.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:48:03 -!- Soulman1 [~knute@250.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 00:54:47 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.12.183] has joined #lisp 00:55:15 pnq [~nick@AC81D29A.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 00:59:11 -!- Vutral [ZCKuM8Pb77@vutral.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:06:01 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-23-218.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:16 Vutral [ZtSkKYv4lW@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 01:14:11 -!- beach [~user@116.118.2.191] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:15:28 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483B35E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:17:50 -!- bobertlo [~robert@user-38q4b4r.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:18:18 wes-exp [~user@76-198-128-124.lightspeed.mtvwca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:55 beach [~user@116.118.2.191] has joined #lisp 01:20:55 hello lispers? 01:21:51 hello wes-exp 01:22:40 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:22:48 wes-exp: New here? 01:22:50 hi beach, could I trouble you with a noobish lisp question? 01:22:53 yes. 01:23:10 wes-exp: Just go ahead and ask. 01:23:20 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.38.102.252] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:23:31 wes-exp: It is better not to direct it to anyone in particular. That way you might get more good answers. 01:23:32 I'm wondering how to bind local variables to a function that returns multiple values (2). 01:24:08 wes-exp: To a function, or to the values that are returned by a call to such a function? 01:24:22 the values that are returned. 01:24:29 multiple-value-bind 01:24:40 clhs multiple-value-bind 01:24:53 No specbot? 01:25:24 lisp [~gj@2001:cc0:2026:800:62eb:69ff:fe3a:306] has joined #lisp 01:26:17 I'm looking at the clhs doc page on it. 01:26:21 -!- lisp [~gj@2001:cc0:2026:800:62eb:69ff:fe3a:306] has quit [Client Quit] 01:26:39 Does it work like "let" but with multiple vars? 01:27:41 wes-exp: (multiple-value-bind (var1 var2 ...) form-that-returns-multple-values body-form1 body-form2 ...) 01:28:13 wes-exp: I don't know what you mean by `like "let" but with multiple vars'. 01:28:43 wes-exp: The body forms are evaluated in an environment in which the vars are bound to the return values of the form. 01:30:26 -!- pyrony [~epic@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:32:48 cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:14 Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.17.80] has joined #lisp 01:35:46 pyrony [~epic@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:35:58 beach: Got it. Thank you. 01:36:08 wes-exp: No problem. 01:39:42 -!- Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.17.80] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:43:05 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:49:06 BrianRice [~water@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:51:32 -!- macrocat [~marmalade@142.177.208.20] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:56:19 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:56:32 gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 01:56:37 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 02:06:29 -!- beach [~user@116.118.2.191] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:06:56 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:07:28 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 02:09:11 -!- Vutral [ZtSkKYv4lW@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:09:42 jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has joined #lisp 02:11:27 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-152-142-2.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:12:25 cbp [~cesarbp@189.139.219.67] has joined #lisp 02:12:57 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:13:17 Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 02:13:52 -!- locci [~nes@93.37.195.150] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 02:16:03 Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.199.197] has joined #lisp 02:18:48 gor[e] [~svr@gw2.masterhost.ru] has joined #lisp 02:20:52 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.199.197] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:21:23 -!- splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:23:12 ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 02:28:08 joast [~rick@CPE-76-178-178-72.natnow.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:30:37 beach [~user@116.118.2.191] has joined #lisp 02:31:08 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 02:35:13 -!- wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-98-234-186-226.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:35:46 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:37:45 Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.199.197] has joined #lisp 02:38:00 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 02:38:00 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 02:39:00 Deathaholic [~Mococa@177.42.199.197] has joined #lisp 02:40:45 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.117.37] has joined #lisp 02:43:04 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.199.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:43:25 -!- pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:45:27 -!- sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:49:04 pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 02:50:28 sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has joined #lisp 02:50:48 akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-093-204.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:51:47 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-98-113-194-183.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:52:38 jorgeu [~jorgeu@201.210.182.225] has joined #lisp 02:54:28 hi, I wanna understand explicit type definitions like (declare type var). Where can I find more info? 02:54:35 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@a91-152-135-21.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:55:00 <_3b> http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_c.htm ? 02:55:33 jorgeu: You might also want to look at the difference between types and classes. 02:56:05 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-58-56.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 02:56:39 (declare type var) is more along the lines of a promise than a definition. 02:57:00 jorgeu: What is the reason that you want to understand such definitions? 02:57:15 looking for compiler optimizations 02:57:21 just exploring 02:57:27 -!- WarWeasle [~brad@c-98-220-114-168.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:00:05 _3b: thanks. 03:00:53 maybe sbcl compiler can use real integer for a variable rather than a arbitrary precision number right? 03:01:10 but It would need a specific declaration 03:01:10 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-58-56.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has left #lisp 03:01:34 <_3b> if it knows it will fit, it can use a more specific type 03:01:35 it have been hard to find good information 03:01:36 jorgeu: "real integer"? 03:01:48 el-maxo_ [~max@p5DE8ECF7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:02:01 beach: yeah something like a 4-byte old style integer 03:02:13 is it possible? 03:02:50 <_3b> (declare ((unsigned-byte 32) foo)) should do that 03:02:59 yeah! 03:03:20 where I can find a list of valid types? _3b 03:03:50 <_3b> ch 4.2.3 talks about the built in types in the spec 03:04:01 <_3b> and how to make new ones 03:04:19 thnaks 03:04:23 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@99-27-205-152.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:24 thanks 03:04:26 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@99-27-207-90.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:04:27 <_3b> if you want to know which are 'optimized' in some form on a particular implementation, you will have to look at the docs for that implementation 03:04:30 -!- slyrus_ is now known as slyrus 03:04:44 sweet of course 03:05:07 -!- el-maxo [~max@p5790F4E5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:05:38 <_3b> (sbcl should do at least 1,2,4 octet ints, 8 on 64bit, single and double floats, possibly some smaller than 8bit ints, depending on context) 03:05:56 and fixnums. 03:06:24 <_3b> and for best results, if you know a lower bound than '32 bits' you should use it 03:06:59 -!- Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:07:09 Fade: you here? 03:07:10 especially since arithmetic isn't closed on 32 bit integers. 03:07:25 <_3b> since that way, type propagation might let it use smaller types for results, for example (* a b) might be a bignum if A and B are fixnums, but is a BIT if A dn B are BITs 03:07:29 Or anyone else know what the answer to this backtrace is http://paste.lisp.org/display/115343 03:08:11 gigamonkey: what does your dns server return for quickstart.quicklisp.org? 03:08:56 _3b: so there is no way to force it. Maybe it doesn't worth it 03:09:29 _3d: have you heard about runtime speed gain by declaring types? 03:09:30 jorgeu: well, in conjunction with explicit masking/modulo if you want wrap-around. 03:09:40 jorgeu: tons. 03:09:41 pkhuong: unknown host. 03:09:54 <_3b> jorgeu: not sure what you mean by 'no way to force it', declaring types helps a lot on SBCL at least 03:10:05 ok 03:10:31 Yet it know about www.quicklisp.org 03:10:34 knows. 03:10:38 <_3b> note that by default SBCL will verify that the value is actualy that type, so you can't just throw declaration s everywhere without thinking 03:10:41 jorgeu: You're just approaching optimisation for SBCL wrong. You don't "force" machine arithmetic or what else; you provide enough information for the compiler to deduce that machine arithmetic (or other simplifications) are safe and semantic-preserving. 03:11:26 yeah sure 03:11:28 gigamonkey: same here. Might be a problem on QL's end. 03:11:51 -!- naiv [~naiv@ARennes-553-1-203-105.w2-10.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:14:24 pkhuong: yeah. Bummer. 03:17:33 *_3b* wonders if SBCL has problems with type propagation in branches of CASE 03:18:46 _3b: eql isn't propagated into types as aggressively as it used to, iirc. 03:19:10 Leads to explosions in compile time much more often than in useful improvements. 03:19:28 <_3b> pkhuong: i mean conflicting types in one branch against type inferred from the other 03:19:49 shouldn't. What's an example? 03:19:57 *_3b* almost has it down to a reasonable size, just a sec 03:21:08 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:22:27 _3b pasted "conflicting types" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122023 03:23:11 *_3b* supposes i could have cut it down a bit more, left a few unused args in there 03:23:28 _3b: I don't see the problem. 03:23:45 <_3b> actually, i guess you are right 03:23:56 *_3b* can't read 03:24:00 k. 03:24:37 *_3b* wonders if people actually use cl-opengl who care about performance 03:24:41 -!- gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:25:03 gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 03:25:33 -!- dsmcfarl` [~user@246.41.143.24.cm.sunflower.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:26:43 <_3b> or if the subset who do care about performace, don't care about convenience and just use the low-level API 03:26:51 <_3b> (which is what i usually do) 03:28:35 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 03:29:36 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-176-90.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:29:56 *_3b* wonders if any of the fancy fast array access tricks opticl uses would be applicable to cl-opengl GL-ARRAYs, since they seem pretty slow currently :/ 03:31:28 Vutral [~ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 03:35:06 Demosthenes [~demo@71.16.32.107] has joined #lisp 03:39:07 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c72ce0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 03:40:44 Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.17.80] has joined #lisp 03:41:28 Hi all! 03:51:15 -!- JimmyRcom [~jimmy@adsl-75-53-45-212.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 03:52:41 Can emacs be used as a word processor? 03:52:59 Like, can you make everything out of ASCII? 03:54:26 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has joined #lisp 03:56:13 -!- pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:57:54 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 03:58:43 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 03:59:24 Evildaemon: I wrote two books in Emacs. 03:59:47 However my words were all locally grown and home cooked, not processed. 03:59:57 loke_ [~elias@bb119-74-152-158.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 04:00:16 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:00:43 Evildaemon: sure, same as Vim. Just use LaTeX, and suddenly you have a typesetting foundry as well :) 04:03:15 sausages [~valc@balmora.robotjunkyard.org] has joined #lisp 04:03:34 -!- loke [~elias@bb219-75-23-203.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:03:59 seejay [~seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has joined #lisp 04:04:16 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:04:55 The reason I asked was to see if it'd be possible to just save to text or something and avoid the format wars. 04:05:10 (RTF is amazing, BTW.) 04:05:22 -!- seejay [~seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has left #lisp 04:05:30 Save what to text? (Not that this is particularly on topic here.) 04:05:33 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp 04:05:55 Documents in general, like if there were extentions to make tables/etc out of ASCII 04:06:08 You might check out org-mode. 04:06:17 And as far as on topic goes, it's not like were heavy on traffic here. 04:06:27 Evildaemon: sure. That's why I'm talking with you about it. ;-) 04:06:41 org-mode can export to HTML but I don't think it does RTF. 04:07:01 Huh. 04:07:20 I generated RTF from my own Markup language to give to my publisher. 04:07:31 But I did that in Common Lisp not in Emacs Lisp. 04:07:46 Why is RTF amazing? 04:07:50 And it was very ad hoc bacause RTF is actually a nightmare. 04:08:04 Zhivago: amazingly crufty, in my experience. 04:08:09 Huh, wikipedia says it's actually not an open format, never using again. 04:08:50 Anyway, I don't want to rely on the community to keep engineering the countless MS word formats 04:08:56 leifw [~user@ool-18bac6ad.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:08:58 *reverse engineering 04:09:05 Don't they support xml or something? 04:09:27 I remember some noise about some open document format or other. 04:09:33 Yeah 04:09:42 But MS word doesn't play nice with it 04:09:59 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_document_format 04:10:09 It is XML based, however 04:10:11 Zhivago: yeah, they got spooked by the presence of an actual open document format (ODF from OpenOffice), and came up with their own. The only "open" thing about MS' format is the presence of that word in its name. 04:10:28 splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 04:10:46 Ah well, my money is on html for the long run. 04:11:22 Evildaemon: if you're looking for an open format that is actually supported by MS Word, I believe you're stuck with plain ASCII. 04:11:38 Thats why I asked in the first place 04:12:13 I wanted to see if ASCII could be molded with scripts and a text editor into a useful format. 04:12:28 I'm pretty sure that word can export to horriblified html. 04:13:25 Lol, so reverse engineer the terrible HTML generator? That sounds like more work then the doc formats. 04:13:27 I also believe HTML Tidy has a special command line switch that says, "this came from Word; please fix" 04:14:01 Everyone expects horriblified html. 04:14:13 So there are a lot of tools to deal with it. 04:14:16 RTF is a published spec, however. Which may be good enough for many purposes. 04:16:26 Of course. 04:16:36 -!- gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:16:47 gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 04:18:37 So my idea was simple, avoid the format wars, when I need to, by finding a way to use emacs as a word processor. 04:18:47 -!- Vutral [~ss@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:19:57 (Or a way to save all the open office stuff to ASCII) 04:21:15 Evildaemon: It is unclear what you want. ASCII can't express most things you want from a word process unless you use ASCII to encode one of the formats you want to avoid. 04:22:00 Zhivago: Word has two options for exporting to HTML. One was actually intended for exporting HTML pages, while the other was intended as a kind of HTML-based Word-specific format, and is truly horrifying to clean up by hand. 04:22:06 I want a set of hacks to make ASCII structures for tables/ other simple data structures 04:22:14 Thts it 04:22:19 *thats 04:22:19 evil: You're reinventing html the stupid way. 04:22:25 evil: I suggest using html instead. 04:22:37 Happily, emacs supports html. 04:22:39 I don't think word will open html? 04:22:50 I'm pretty sure it will import html. 04:22:53 If it will, your right, that would be stupid 04:23:10 I don't have a copy to check though 04:23:51 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:23:51 http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/word-help/open-and-save-files-in-formats-supported-by-word-HP005186073.aspx 04:24:09 Evildaemon: I'm pretty sure it does, too. But who are you expecting to read these documents, other than yourself, and are you expecting anybody other than yourself to edit them? 04:24:57 You might also want to consider that Word uses proportional fonts unless directed otherwise, and trying to build aesthetically pleasing tables in proportional fonts is a route to madness invented by Cthulhu himself. 04:25:13 (Also solved by html) 04:25:24 That's kinda where I was going :) 04:25:48 This is why I ask, why implement a stupid idea, when I can ask and do it the right way? 04:26:16 (Or reinvent the wheel) 04:26:20 This, on the other hand, is one of the paths to wisdon. 04:26:35 wisdom, even. I'm not sure where wisdon is, or whether I'd want to visit. 04:26:55 Only by hammering nails into your forehead can you truly appreciate what it means. 04:26:56 I wasn't going to correct you on the typo, honest. 04:28:28 And I had no doubt word will open an html file, but if I send stuff in a markup language, it'll kind of make people go WTF. 04:28:54 (Tell them to open it in IE/Firefox/Chrome?) 04:29:20 Why do you care? 04:30:14 Well, if for example, it were for a professor, he kind of needs to be able to read it. 04:30:43 I'm pretty sure browsers are good at displaying html 04:30:58 And he's not smart enough to double click? 04:31:43 Does windows default to opening .html with...........actually, I'll just o check that one 04:31:47 -!- Deathaholic [~Mococa@177.42.199.197] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:34:14 grncdr [~stephen@sdo.csc.UVic.CA] has joined #lisp 04:35:39 Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 04:35:41 -!- sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:40:45 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:43:30 -!- elliottcable is now known as paws 04:44:57 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.149] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:45:02 -!- jestocost [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:45:23 SidH_ [~SidH_@203.101.61.7] has joined #lisp 04:45:43 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 04:47:16 -!- SidH_ [~SidH_@203.101.61.7] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:47:48 SidH_ [~SidH_@203.101.61.7] has joined #lisp 04:47:52 -!- paws is now known as elliottcable 04:49:02 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has joined #lisp 04:51:33 -!- SidH_ [~SidH_@203.101.61.7] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:52:08 SidH_ [~SidH_@203.101.61.7] has joined #lisp 04:53:13 georgek [~user@184-77-70-234.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 04:53:31 -!- elliottcable is now known as everyone 04:53:36 -!- everyone is now known as elliottcable 04:54:46 -!- SidH_ [~SidH_@203.101.61.7] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:55:20 SidH_ [~SidH_@203.101.61.7] has joined #lisp 04:56:40 hi, does anyone know of a Websocket implementation using usocket? 04:57:15 -!- SidH_ [~SidH_@203.101.61.7] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:57:48 SidH_ [~SidH_@203.101.61.7] has joined #lisp 04:58:43 -!- SidH_ [~SidH_@203.101.61.7] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:59:06 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@206.228.97.2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:59:18 SidH_ [~SidH_@203.101.61.7] has joined #lisp 04:59:54 Jasko [~tjasko@206.228.97.2] has joined #lisp 05:00:33 -!- SidH_ [~SidH_@203.101.61.7] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:01:08 SidH_ [~SidH_@203.101.61.7] has joined #lisp 05:02:00 -!- SidH_ [~SidH_@203.101.61.7] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:02:02 georgek: I don't know of one, but I wasn't previously aware of it, so thankyou for asking the question. Give me a month or two and I may be able to tell you about one :) 05:02:31 thanks :) 05:02:34 SidH_ [~SidH_@203.101.61.7] has joined #lisp 05:02:39 fwiw, there is something with iolib 05:03:24 -!- SidH_ [~SidH_@203.101.61.7] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:03:55 SidH_ [~SidH_@203.101.61.7] has joined #lisp 05:04:46 -!- SidH_ [~SidH_@203.101.61.7] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:05:22 SidH_ [~SidH_@203.101.61.7] has joined #lisp 05:06:20 -!- SidH_ [~SidH_@203.101.61.7] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:06:55 SidH_ [~SidH_@203.101.61.10] has joined #lisp 05:07:17 basho__ [~basho__@dslb-092-076-074-138.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 05:07:39 -!- gor[e] [~svr@gw2.masterhost.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:10:48 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-vltmmcxdkixhknry] has joined #lisp 05:11:28 -!- gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:11:42 gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 05:16:21 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:16:40 McMAGIC--Copy [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 05:17:00 superjudge [~superjudg@195.22.80.141] has joined #lisp 05:18:01 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-jppwwvohnvmhdmsf] has joined #lisp 05:18:01 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-jppwwvohnvmhdmsf] has quit [Changing host] 05:18:01 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:19:18 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-23-218.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:20:02 -!- symbole [~user@ool-ad02b0d9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:23:04 Hm, curious. Why does OR only return the first of a VALUES return if the first condition matches, but all of the VALUES if the second condition? 05:24:13 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-38-156-48.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:24:26 (or (values 'a 'b) nil) => A, but (or nil (values 'a 'b)) => A,B 05:24:28 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-156-48.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:25:06 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-172-175.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:25:47 Ah, the spec says it should do what it's doing, that's for sure 05:26:05 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 05:26:05 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 05:26:05 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:28:03 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-zmwmcvwyrkjgfnai] has joined #lisp 05:30:50 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 05:37:44 kami``` [~user@p5B20D747.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:38:00 -!- wol [~wol@67.174.222.215] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:39:03 -!- kami`` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:41:37 tcr [~tcr@62-50-220-131.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 05:42:20 <_3b> georgek: out of curiosity, why usocket? windows support? 05:45:55 jmbr [~jmbr@17.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 05:47:15 enupten [~neptune@117.211.83.4] has joined #lisp 05:47:15 -!- tcr [~tcr@62-50-220-131.client.stsn.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:47:25 -!- enupten [~neptune@117.211.83.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:48:28 tcr [~tcr@62-50-220-131.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 05:49:55 <_3b> herbieB: easier/more efficient to implement that way, since it doesn't have to cons up a list to store the extra values (which may not even exist) 05:50:20 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@17.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Client Quit] 05:50:27 <_3b> herbieB: while the last result can just be returned directly if none of the others were true 05:52:26 pnq1 [~nick@ACA22459.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 05:52:27 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81D29A.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:53:18 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 05:53:19 -!- tcr [~tcr@62-50-220-131.client.stsn.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:53:48 tcr [~tcr@62-50-220-131.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 05:53:49 -!- pnq1 is now known as pnq 05:58:05 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 06:05:38 jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-248.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:07:06 -!- wes-exp [~user@76-198-128-124.lightspeed.mtvwca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: counting lambdas] 06:09:34 -!- georgek [~user@184-77-70-234.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:11:07 _3b: Why would it cons a list rather than just store extra values in registers? 06:11:34 -!- leifw [~user@ool-18bac6ad.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:11:38 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:11:49 <_3b> beach: how many registers? 06:12:09 <_3b> in general case, you can't tell at compile time 06:12:17 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@h215n1c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Quit: add^_] 06:12:29 <_3b> (and even a lot of normal cases i suspect) 06:13:16 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:13:30 *_3b* supposes OR could have been a special form to allow passing extra values through the test or something 06:16:31 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:7a2b:cbff:fed0:c11c] has joined #lisp 06:16:31 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:7a2b:cbff:fed0:c11c] has quit [Changing host] 06:16:31 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 06:16:45 <_3b> and now that i think about it, since it isn't a special form, it has to be specified as if it were implementable in CL, which doesn't know about 'registers' anyway 06:17:10 -!- Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:17:29 _3b: IIRC, any standard macro is allowed to be implemented as a special form. 06:17:51 it can be a special operator, though 06:17:56 -!- cbp [~cesarbp@189.139.219.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:18:05 Hmm, that doesn't sound right. 06:18:31 Unless you mean 'as well as a macro'. 06:18:37 <_3b> right, but it has to be specified as if it were not, so any hypothetical special operator has to act like the macro 06:18:50 Including macroexpansion. 06:18:52 Zhivago: Right, the macro must still be available. 06:18:59 *_3b* isn't sure if i have a point here 06:19:00 although i don't understand what you're saying why it has to be a special operator 06:19:21 <_3b> it has to be a special operator to deal in 'registers' 06:19:23 Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 06:20:39 why can't ordinary operators deal with registers? 06:21:14 -!- splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:21:32 *_3b* doesn't feel like trying to form a coherent argument, so feel free to prtend i didn't say any of that :) 06:22:09 -!- Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.17.80] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:23:56 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-170-71.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 06:24:15 <_3b> possibly my point is that the spec can't require that behavior without making it a special operator, so there isn't much point in doing extra work implementing it even if the spec hadn't forbidden it, and it can't be non-consing in the general case anyway 06:25:15 _3b: Why can't it put multiple values on the stack? 06:25:49 _3b: And why can't it be non-consing if the number of values is smaller than the number of registers available? 06:26:03 ... as detected at runtime. 06:26:20 *_3b* retracts the bit about the general case being hard, was thinking at the wrong level 06:26:33 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.202.93] has joined #lisp 06:26:45 (defun call-with-or (&rest functions) (loop for function in functions do (multiple-value-bind (a b c) (funcall function) (when a (return (values a b c)))))) 06:27:07 supposedly, the compiler stores a b c in registers 06:27:29 *_3b* passes (lambda () (read)) to that 06:27:44 <_3b> (funcall (read)) rather 06:28:27 <_3b> CL code can't tell how many variables to bind in advance, so needs to cons a list 06:28:41 -!- benny [~benny@i577A169F.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:28:45 you did talk about non-general case, didn't you? 06:29:25 cl can't optimize any other thing not known at run-time, why is this any special? 06:29:31 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.221.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:29:32 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 06:29:49 <_3b> because CL was specified a long time ago? dunno 06:31:18 *_3b* isn't sure 3-value-or is particularly more valuable than cl:or though 06:31:40 *_3b* could see multiple-value-or being worth a bit of consing once in a while tohugh 06:31:43 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.202.93] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 06:31:44 no, i mean why do you single out it, and don't say that (+ a b) isn't optimized if it doesn't know that a and b are double-floats 06:32:03 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 06:32:41 compile-file imposes many invariant constraints. 06:33:33 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:34:06 splittist [~splittist@96.98.202.62.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:34:37 *_3b* retracts the entire argument then, i have no idea why CL spec doren't require OR to return all values of the first argument to return a true first value 06:35:07 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:35:10 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 06:36:38 bsod1 [~osa1@31.141.118.99] has joined #lisp 06:37:59 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:38:23 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has joined #lisp 06:39:18 peterhil` [~peterhil@a91-152-135-21.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 06:40:23 stis [~stis@host-78-79-238-0.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 06:41:57 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-165-128.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:42:08 McMAGIC--Copy [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 06:44:14 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:45:20 i *do* suppose the reason has to do with vendors saying "too much work. we're not going to support a multiple-value OR because our customers don't care" 06:45:47 prog1 is a similar case. 06:46:07 I suspect that it has more to do with temporary variables than anything else. 06:46:15 Since values aren't first class in CL. 06:47:06 La0fer [~Laofers1@64.120.233.114] has joined #lisp 06:47:16 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 06:47:55 <_3b> nikodemus: did you ever get a chance to look at the sb-cga stuff for running on more lisps? 06:48:25 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-248.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:48:47 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has joined #lisp 06:48:57 *_3b* decided not to include the example that would have used it into cl-opengl, so no rush... just curious. 06:50:10 _3b: not yet 06:50:43 stassats pasted "call-with-or" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122024 06:50:56 _3b: to answer your (funcall (read)) 06:51:47 -!- splittist [~splittist@96.98.202.62.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: splittist] 06:52:11 _3b: which branch should i look at? master or ports? 06:53:20 <_3b> nikodemus: hmm, looks like master 06:55:28 Do coroutines require having to store less information than a first-class continuation would have to? 06:55:36 3b: your copyrights are wrong. you're not me in the past :) 06:56:07 -!- jorgeu [~jorgeu@201.210.182.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:56:15 nice work on slime-indentation, nikodemus, will try it out soon 06:56:34 <_3b> nikodemus: well, not like i added much to most of those files :p 06:57:11 -!- zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:59:14 _3b: looking good 06:59:20 zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:59:28 <_3b> heh, gitk thinks those were copied from sb-cga.asd 06:59:35 merging now, testing later 07:00:20 splittist [~splittist@96.98.202.62.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:00:41 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA22459.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:00:43 stassats annotated #122018 "another subclause indentation issue" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122018#1 07:01:07 nikodemus: here's another thing with subclause indentation still turned off 07:01:28 -!- ebzzry [~ebzzry@180.192.232.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:01:39 <_3b> that reminds me, do these indentation fixes make M-q indent the same way TAB would in LOOPs? 07:03:49 -!- kephas [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-46-202.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:05:01 tcr: Perhaps you can think of coroutines as being destructively updated continuations. 07:05:18 <_3b> hmm, i never did get around to doing something about ecl's sys:float-nan-p, did i 07:05:18 -!- tcr [~tcr@62-50-220-131.client.stsn.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:05:39 *_3b* wonders if it still returns NIL for NaNs 07:06:32 -!- madsenz [~madsenz@n11z181l194.static.ctm.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:06:37 tcr [~tcr@62-50-220-131.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 07:07:32 stassats`: hm, ok 07:08:23 that was definitely intentional, though and matches old defaults. do you have lisp-loop-forms-indentation or lisp-loop-keyword-indentation set? 07:08:32 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.119.23] has joined #lisp 07:08:50 if so, what are the values? 07:09:28 lisp-simple-loop-indentation 1 lisp-loop-keyword-indentation 6 lisp-loop-forms-indentation 07:09:32 6 07:10:02 you rogue customizer! 07:10:36 Where can I read the ANSI Common list spec? 07:11:16 too bad there's no one agreed-upon way to indent LOOP 07:11:26 *lisp 07:11:31 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.119.23] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:11:34 If you stick to one-liners, then it doesn't matter. 07:11:53 -!- nullman [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:11:56 my display is too small 07:12:05 the agreed way to indent LOOP is to use ITERATE, isn't it? 07:12:11 no 07:12:57 nullman [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:13:19 stassats`: this is tricky. it's a trivial fix ... but! 07:14:05 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.119.23] has joined #lisp 07:14:14 now, if somebody had fixed indentation of symbols in different packages, because macro (table (&body ...)) in one package messes up table function in another 07:14:35 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:14:57 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 07:15:05 previously the identation code could be set up to handle either cases where "(loop" was immediately followed by a newline, or ones where it wasn't 07:15:06 it even messes up (:table ...) in cl-who, who uncool is that? 07:15:16 Evildaemon: here - http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/common-lisp.html 07:15:31 s/who/how/ 07:15:47 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 07:15:52 Evildaemon: that's the closest you'll feasibly get to the actual spec, but it's what everybody works from. The full story is a much longer one. 07:15:55 the old GNU defaults for lisp-loop-forms-indentation and lisp-loop-keyword-indentation were for "with newline" style -- what i call a split loop 07:16:38 Fair enough, it appears to be 30$ + shipping and handling from the ANSi website 07:16:44 don't buy it! 07:16:46 i modified the code to support both styles out of the box -- but this means that meaning of those customizations changes. i opted for dropping them entirely 07:16:48 I won't 07:16:53 it's wicked 07:17:00 I was commenting on what he said 07:17:08 which removed your ability to indent keyword and forms identically 07:17:09 well, it's the same thing, basically 07:17:23 HET2 [~diman@nat67.mia.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:17:28 -!- nullman [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:17:29 ok, now that i've talked the issue out, i know what to do :) 07:17:37 Anyway, why is the standard by ANSI anyway? 07:18:00 *I just said anyway twice 07:18:07 by whom should it be, anyway? 07:18:12 Evildaemon: that's a long and political issue. The really short answer is that it doesn't matter much; it's what everybody's agreed to work from. 07:18:20 Okay. 07:18:51 <_3b> well, it would have been pretty silly for anyone else to standardize "ANSI Common Lisp" 07:19:35 And stat, it just didn't seem like the kind of organization that would publish the standard for something like LISP, (Then again, they appear to have a C standard too so what do I know?) 07:19:38 nullman [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:20:05 first, they published a standard for Lisp, not LISP 07:20:20 Lisp 07:20:21 *_3b* thought that was pretty much their entire reason for existing (publishing standards for things) 07:20:47 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-38-156-48.ptld.qwest.net] has left #lisp 07:21:09 _3b: I think Evildaemon's question is more "why ANSI and not some other standards body like, say, ISO." 07:21:20 why not GOST? 07:21:22 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.117.37] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:21:25 Well, yeah, I remember something about car parts, not programming languages, I didn't know they were that multi-faceted. 07:21:31 yeah, what's the big deal? 07:21:38 -!- pyrony [~epic@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:21:46 There isn't one. 07:21:49 Evildaemon: Lisp has car parts 07:22:01 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.117.37] has joined #lisp 07:22:18 car parts of conses 07:22:19 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.117.37] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:22:23 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:22:50 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 07:22:56 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-172-175.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:22:56 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@71.16.32.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:23:04 -!- kruhft [~burton@S0106002401f331bd.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:23:06 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.117.37] has joined #lisp 07:24:23 Demosthenes [~demo@71.16.32.107] has joined #lisp 07:24:58 Evildaemon: if you really want the run-down, download the first episode of The Weekly REPL (http://lisp.geek.nz/weekly-repl/). It's mostly a recording of a talk that gigamonkey gave on CL's history. 07:26:09 no, if you really want history, read the HOPL paper 07:27:35 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 07:28:10 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.119.23] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:29:23 -!- limetree [~simon@c-23e8e155.1226-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:29:30 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-150-156.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:30:18 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.119.23] has joined #lisp 07:30:45 nikodemus annotated #122018 "loop question" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122018#2 07:31:43 *_3b* prefers the first 07:32:01 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 07:32:23 definitely the first 07:32:27 _3b: that's the default if you use subclause aware indentation. that's even the default if you don't use it -- but then you get the behaviour stassts doesn't want 07:32:45 this is a question for mr customizations here :) 07:33:16 *splittist* finds stassats`' preference odd, but trusts in nikodemus to cater for everybody 07:33:21 *_3b* votes to ignore customizations that call for the 2nd :p 07:34:44 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-204-121.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:34:44 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:35:18 -!- cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:35:18 -!- tcr [~tcr@62-50-220-131.client.stsn.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:35:21 -!- HET2 [~diman@nat67.mia.three.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:35:26 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-98-252.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:35:33 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-204-121.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 07:36:28 tcr [~tcr@62-50-220-131.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 07:37:20 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.119.23] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:37:50 Vutral [EJgMEbZ7O7@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 07:38:59 -!- ecraven [~user@140.78.42.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:39:11 -!- insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-31-217.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:40:22 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has joined #lisp 07:40:38 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:40:55 katesmith [~katesmith@97-89-229-3.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 07:40:56 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@97-89-229-3.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 07:40:56 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 07:41:17 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-bplcjoysedfbcwdi] has joined #lisp 07:41:58 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:43:48 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:44:02 -!- Vutral [EJgMEbZ7O7@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:44:19 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.117.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:44:27 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.119.23] has joined #lisp 07:44:28 superjudge_ [~superjudg@195.22.80.140] has joined #lisp 07:44:47 ecraven [~user@140.78.42.213] has joined #lisp 07:46:52 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@195.22.80.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:46:52 -!- superjudge_ is now known as superjudge 07:47:11 pyrony [~epic@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:47:36 hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 07:49:55 jhuni [~jhuni@udp217774uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 07:52:04 nikodemus: my preference, every line aligned the same 07:52:33 it may be not pretty, but it's consistent and i got used to it 07:52:47 zomgbie_ [~jesus@85-127-169-157.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 07:53:08 -!- jhuni [~jhuni@udp217774uds.hawaiiantel.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:53:54 and i usually won't write the way it's in the paste, but use a linebreak after DO if there's more than one form to be evaluated 07:54:04 jhuni [~jhuni@udp217774uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 07:54:41 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:54:47 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-170-71.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:56:02 -!- jhuni [~jhuni@udp217774uds.hawaiiantel.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:56:13 -!- Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:57:05 gaidal [~gaidal@113.65.66.58] has joined #lisp 07:57:38 stassats`: ok. but you don't mind if forms are aligned if they start with the same line as a body-introducing keyword? 07:58:41 jhuni [~jhuni@udp217774uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 07:59:01 Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 07:59:28 perhaps i don't 07:59:29 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.119.23] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:59:42 ok, cvs up then :) 08:00:08 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.119.23] has joined #lisp 08:00:08 and (setq lisp-loop-indent-forms-like-keywords t) 08:00:12 i could actually use some different indentation if it was guaranteed that everybody else uses it 08:00:38 (neither lisp-loop-forms-indentation or lisp-loop-keyword-indentation matter anymore) 08:02:28 the-same-line-as-do indentation only aligns the next line, is that right? 08:03:11 stassats annotated #122018 "like this" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122018#3 08:03:36 oh bugger 08:05:05 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.119.23] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:05:30 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:05:56 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.119.23] has joined #lisp 08:06:23 Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has joined #lisp 08:06:33 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:07:16 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 08:10:24 Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 08:13:08 ebzzry [~ebzzry@180.192.232.84] has joined #lisp 08:15:18 cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.67] has joined #lisp 08:15:18 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.67] has quit [Changing host] 08:15:18 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 08:15:56 -!- pyrony [~epic@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:20:11 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 08:20:25 beach: the reason why a multi-value OR cannot be implemented "easily" as a macro, is because multiple values are not first class objects in CL> 08:21:01 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.119.23] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:21:04 HET2 [~diman@nat67.mia.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:21:07 As soon as you bind them, or pass them as argument to a function (or just IF), they're projected to the first value. 08:21:39 You have to use multiple-value-list to keep them all, and then values-list to return multiple value again. 08:21:49 talin [~talin@unaffiliated/talin] has joined #lisp 08:22:06 -!- talin [~talin@unaffiliated/talin] has left #lisp 08:23:32 -!- Sgeo [~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:23:52 stassats`: fixed in cvs 08:24:48 pjb: but that is just notation ... if the compiler sees that only the first value is used it can optimize the rest away, doesn't it? 08:24:51 Sgeo [~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 08:25:34 -!- HET2 [~diman@nat67.mia.three.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:26:07 c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-gqitrfqxscruamka] has joined #lisp 08:26:14 The issue is that _not_ throwing them away is expensive in the general case. 08:26:29 It's only cheap in a tail call position. 08:26:56 ehu [~ehuels@109.33.253.55] has joined #lisp 08:29:36 pyrony [~epic@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:29:58 But luckily the compiler never has a general case ... it nearly always sees how many values are wanted, and can optimize, right? 08:30:34 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-gqitrfqxscruamka] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:30:48 anyone here involved with lisp.org? 08:30:56 just saw the wiki page on the redecoration. 08:31:08 flip214: not quite true. there a many non-tail positions where you don't know the number of values needed 08:31:25 liuzhijin [~liuzhijin@203.86.56.34] has joined #lisp 08:31:50 _most_ of the time unknown values appear in tail position, though. but not nearly always 08:31:52 please elaborate? 08:32:13 (defun foo () (unwind-protect (values ...) (quux))) 08:32:32 not a tail-position, don't know how many values the caller expects 08:32:44 -!- Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:33:20 consider also PROG1, CATCH, and special bindings 08:33:49 and the values can not simply be left as-is (on some stack?), and (quux) called in a different frame? 08:34:26 Certainly, if there are multiple values, the result list has to be built here anyway, so they wouldn't be thrown away in any case? 08:34:26 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-vltmmcxdkixhknry] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:34:53 -!- liuzhijin [~liuzhijin@203.86.56.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:35:08 Sorry, maybe I'm just misunderstanding something, I thought the discussion is about CALL-WITH-OR slowness? 08:35:22 i'm not talking about it 08:35:40 call-with-or is a proof of concept 08:35:44 ok, sorry for causing confusion 08:35:57 i was just responding to your assertiont that compiler always knows how many values are needed unless it's a tail position 08:36:23 i don't deny that plenty of cleverness can be applied to making multiple values efficient in a wide variety of situations 08:36:39 well, that's still true, isn't it? the "general" function case is that _all_ values are needed, only inlining would go faster 08:37:10 there is a cross product of cases, which makes it painful to add more cases 08:37:14 HET2 [~diman@nat67.mia.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:37:45 Vutral [HoV52Ph98Q@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 08:37:56 local call vs full call. tail-merged call vs non-tail-merged call. unknown values vs known values 08:37:57 please tell me where I can look at that, I'm curious. 08:39:04 (ok, i left the general behind and slid into sbcl details. i'm sure alternative implementation strategies may lead to different ways of slicing this pie) 08:40:10 (never mind, that's the interesting case anyway ;-) 08:40:39 flip214: if you let the compiler see that only the first valueS are used, then OR becomes a special operator, which is what is required to deal with non-first class objects. 08:40:59 src/compiler/ir2tran.lisp and src/compiler/x86-64/call.lisp might do as starting points 08:41:07 -!- pyrony [~epic@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:41:07 thank you 08:42:44 It all comes down to values being second class. 08:42:53 Another expedient hack. :) 08:43:27 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.33.253.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:45:12 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:45:14 cfy` [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has joined #lisp 08:45:40 -!- cfy` is now known as Guest14782 08:46:03 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Disconnected by services] 08:46:15 -!- Guest14782 is now known as cfy 08:46:18 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has quit [Changing host] 08:46:18 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 08:48:28 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has joined #lisp 08:48:52 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 08:49:03 ehu [~ehuels@109.33.34.201] has joined #lisp 08:49:33 pyrony [~epic@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:51:11 Zhivago: even if they were first class, you would face the same optimization hurdles 08:51:33 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:52:32 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@71.16.32.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:52:49 stassats`: yes, but this would be expressable as a macro. 08:53:01 and without consing. 08:53:38 well actually that means you wouldn't face the same optimization hurdles, since clearly the macro could express the optimization. The compiler wouldn't have to deal with it. 08:53:39 but you would need to cons a first-class object, wouldn't you? 08:53:48 Not necessarily. 08:54:02 First class object doesn't mean allocated on the heap. 08:54:10 It means that the user code can manipulate it. 08:55:45 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:56:10 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-204-121.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:56:59 -!- Vutral [HoV52Ph98Q@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:57:15 cfy`` [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has joined #lisp 08:57:20 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-204-121.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 08:57:35 but i again don't see why it should be expressable as a macro 08:58:29 Reducing the number of special operator is a good thing, since that reduces the size and complexity of the compiler. 08:58:55 (As it is, CL already defines too many special operators. LET, LET* could be LAMBDA, etc). 08:58:55 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.33.34.201] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:59:25 ehu [~ehuels@109.32.117.148] has joined #lisp 08:59:39 Also, from the user side, reducing the number of special operators makes it easier to write code walkers, since you have to know the semantics of fewer operators. 09:00:29 -!- vert2 [vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-reqcciwifthhflfm] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:00:36 well, taking OR, or-the-special operator would do magic tricks, and or-the-macro-expansion would be implemented using consing lists 09:01:02 so, the code-walkers are happy 09:01:05 Or CL could have specified a code-walker 09:01:07 *_3b* isn't sure that reduction is actually constant... it reduces minimum size/complexity, but makes it harder for a slightly more optimizing compiler to detect interesting optimization opportunities (and doesn't matter to high end compilers that detect that stuff anyway) 09:01:39 -!- pyrony [~epic@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:01:47 stassats`: Who says your compiler doesn't include optimizations for multiple-value-list and values-list? 09:01:57 stassats`: write the multiple-value-or macro, and compile it! 09:02:25 i did write it 09:02:31 The point is that it's entirely orthogonal. 09:02:48 By reducing the number of special operators, the optimizations can work for a greater number of forms. 09:02:56 -!- baggles [~bill@craftsmanltd.co.uk] has left #lisp 09:04:51 Eg. CL let the implementation optimize functions in CL in a special way (open coding them, knowing them more specifically, etc). But a compiler writer could spare some work, and produce better optimizations, if he just implemented global analysis for ALL the functions, and not only for those in CL. 09:05:49 that would disallow redifinitions 09:06:41 Not at all: global analysis would know what functions are redefined, and how. 09:07:07 If your redefinition is only by way of changing a closure, you can still optimize it out. 09:07:27 (If it is by constructing random sexps, then of course, you can't optimize them). 09:07:44 but then it would have to change all call-sites of the redefined function 09:07:54 -!- stis [~stis@host-78-79-238-0.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:08:04 stassats`: yes. But redefinition doesn't occur often. 09:08:08 which might take some time if there are many, which isn't very desirable for interactive development 09:08:11 So this wouldn't be a problem. 09:08:23 stis [~stis@host-95-194-20-87.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 09:08:35 Of course, thus global analysis based optimizations are good only for compile-file, not for REPL... 09:08:42 Compiler writer are not dumb. 09:09:03 well, slime's C-c C-c uses compile-file 09:09:39 but still, you first compiled code with compile-file, and then modify it with REPL or whatnot 09:09:40 <_3b> just switch it all to tracing JIT or whatever the buzzword is these days, and let that deal with it :) 09:10:04 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 09:10:04 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 09:10:04 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 09:10:08 Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:10:21 compile-file may check the syntax and return immediately, and the actual global analysis and compilation may occur in background. 09:11:01 that sounds too complex 09:11:08 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@195.22.80.140] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:11:27 superjudge [~superjudg@195.22.80.141] has joined #lisp 09:11:52 now, maybe some release-build mode, but then, you don't know when you would need to debug it 09:11:54 stassats`: well, I prefer to have different implementations, one for interactive use strong on the debugger, and one to batch compile efficient code. 09:12:02 Munksgaard [~Philip@1807ds2-noe.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 09:12:20 that could be the same executable with different CLI options, or that could be clisp and sbcl... 09:12:53 i would prefer fast and debuggable at the same time 09:15:18 Guthur [c743cb8c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.140] has joined #lisp 09:17:10 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-204-121.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:17:31 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.32.117.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:18:04 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-204-121.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 09:20:22 pyrony [~epic@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:20:31 <_3b> Guthur: http://3bb.cc/tmp/letters.png (i think you were the one asking about that sort of thing recently) 09:20:39 ehu [~ehuels@109.32.117.148] has joined #lisp 09:21:07 those are some strange-looking letters 09:21:23 stis_ [~stis@host-90-235-197-121.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 09:21:36 *_3b* didn't pick them, blame RANDOM :p 09:21:41 -!- stis [~stis@host-95-194-20-87.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:25:40 _3b: cool 09:25:50 did you implement a tessalator 09:26:07 <_3b> nope, testing the cl-opengl patch for glu tesselator support 09:26:35 ok, looks good, 09:26:46 there is something I'd like you to take a look at later 09:26:50 if you are still around 09:26:52 <_3b> (which isn't quite ready for merge i think, but getting close) 09:27:09 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:27:22 just an issue I ran into with my Deferred Renderer, really has me stumped 09:27:45 <_3b> depends on how much later, sleep schedule has been pretty erratic lately :/ 09:27:54 though the only clue I can show is a strangely messed up bitmap 09:27:55 *_3b* needs to cut out caffeine again 09:27:59 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ganmddkeyuyyqunm] has joined #lisp 09:28:39 probably too difficult to work out from the image anyway 09:28:44 but worth a go 09:29:03 I have frob the code for ages with no resolution 09:29:29 on a happier note; I got AMOP at the weekend 09:29:51 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 09:31:18 -!- tcr [~tcr@62-50-220-131.client.stsn.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:34:45 sunnyps [~sunnyps@46.snat-111-91-106.hns.net.in] has joined #lisp 09:35:08 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-172-175.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 09:36:11 -!- stis_ [~stis@host-90-235-197-121.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:36:22 stis_ [~stis@host-95-198-38-119.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 09:39:22 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.32.117.148] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:41:51 -!- SidH_ [~SidH_@203.101.61.10] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 4.0.1/20110413222027]] 09:44:06 cfy``` [~cfy@218.75.27.163] has joined #lisp 09:45:00 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.12.183] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:45:48 -!- cfy`` [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:46:45 -!- pyrony [~epic@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:48:36 pyrony [~epic@99.105.56.162] has joined #lisp 09:50:06 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.226.1] has joined #lisp 09:51:46 cpape [root@linux01.gwdg.de] has joined #lisp 09:52:09 -!- sunnyps [~sunnyps@46.snat-111-91-106.hns.net.in] has left #lisp 09:54:50 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.226.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:59:13 add^_ [~add^_^@h215n1c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 09:59:27 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.226.1] has joined #lisp 10:02:28 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:02:28 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 10:02:28 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:03:41 -!- Evildaemon [~chatzilla@50-35-176-190.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:05:28 -!- stis_ [~stis@host-95-198-38-119.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:05:41 stis_ [~stis@host-95-198-48-187.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 10:06:44 -!- pyrony [~epic@99.105.56.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:07:46 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 10:08:05 jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.26.68] has joined #lisp 10:10:26 silenius [~silenus@p4FC22F02.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:12:47 pyrony [~epic@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:13:14 -!- cheater79 [~cheater23@ip-80-226-46-115.vodafone-net.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:14:40 lanthan [~ze@p54B7F804.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:17:22 jingtao`` [~jingtaozf@123.120.26.68] has joined #lisp 10:17:23 -!- jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.26.68] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:17:39 Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 10:21:06 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-138-90.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 10:21:27 -!- stis_ [~stis@host-95-198-48-187.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:21:35 stis_ [~stis@host-95-198-54-57.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 10:22:20 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:23:16 xan_ [~xan@190.Red-193-152-189.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:24:55 is there any projects that exhibit a significant degree of MOP use? 10:25:04 -!- HET2 [~diman@nat67.mia.three.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:25:07 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.226.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:26:07 HET2 [~diman@nat67.mia.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:26:22 -!- HET2 [~diman@nat67.mia.three.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:26:45 Guthur: perhaps persistency libraries. Perhaps things like ContexL or Cells. 10:27:00 HET2 [~diman@nat67.mia.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:27:10 -!- zomgbie_ [~jesus@85-127-169-157.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:27:57 pjb: cheers 10:28:33 -!- pyrony [~epic@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:30:19 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ganmddkeyuyyqunm] has left #lisp 10:30:39 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:32:33 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 10:33:47 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 10:35:15 stis__ [~stis@host-90-235-219-64.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 10:35:16 -!- HET2 [~diman@nat67.mia.three.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:35:17 -!- stis_ [~stis@host-95-198-54-57.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:36:18 pyrony [~epic@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:37:19 -!- paul0 [~user@189.114.207.115.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:38:08 -!- baffled [~kirk@anarchy.reisers.ca] has left #lisp 10:42:02 -!- gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:44:14 -!- Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:48:21 -!- kami``` [~user@p5B20D747.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:48:35 billitch [~billitch@78.250.132.198] has joined #lisp 10:49:18 Vutral [9gnol2C0sv@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 10:54:10 Yuuhi [benni@p5483BC36.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:54:41 kai__ [~kai@f052103217.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:54:50 -!- kai__ is now known as wetnosed 10:57:09 -!- Vutral [9gnol2C0sv@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:00:11 Amadiro [~Amadiro@1x-193-157-205-100.uio.no] has joined #lisp 11:01:46 superjudge_ [~superjudg@195.22.80.140] has joined #lisp 11:03:27 Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 11:04:25 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.155.68] has joined #lisp 11:05:26 stis [~stis@host-90-235-253-218.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 11:05:49 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@195.22.80.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:05:49 -!- superjudge_ is now known as superjudge 11:06:02 -!- stis__ [~stis@host-90-235-219-64.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:08:49 -!- stis [~stis@host-90-235-253-218.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:09:26 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 11:14:51 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 11:18:05 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:23:40 -!- akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-093-204.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:25:05 ehu [~ehuels@109.34.47.235] has joined #lisp 11:27:32 -!- cfy``` [~cfy@218.75.27.163] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:27:51 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 11:29:14 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.155.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:29:40 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.34.47.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:29:50 spurvewt [~fess@gate113.iba.by] has joined #lisp 11:32:19 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:34:58 zomgbie [~jesus@212095007015.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 11:38:33 -!- Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:38:39 pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 11:38:40 ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 11:39:05 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 11:39:15 ehu [~ehuels@109.34.47.235] has joined #lisp 11:39:24 akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-093-204.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:39:51 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.155.68] has joined #lisp 11:40:25 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:43:50 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 11:43:58 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@gw249-1.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 11:44:26 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.34.47.235] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:44:38 Vutral [0YLttXc0kd@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 11:44:51 ehu [~ehuels@109.34.47.235] has joined #lisp 11:45:34 -!- ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:47:22 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@195.22.80.140] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:47:40 superjudge [~superjudg@195.22.80.141] has joined #lisp 11:49:35 -!- billitch [~billitch@78.250.132.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:57:15 billitch [~billitch@78.250.134.111] has joined #lisp 11:59:30 cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has joined #lisp 12:02:48 jgracin [~jgracin@dh111-186.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 12:06:34 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:09:25 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 12:10:53 -!- wetnosed [~kai@f052103217.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:11:09 -!- billitch [~billitch@78.250.134.111] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:12:58 billitch [~billitch@78.250.134.111] has joined #lisp 12:14:20 hi 12:14:21 -!- billitch [~billitch@78.250.134.111] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:14:57 Last launch of Endeavor. T-00:09:00: http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/index.html 12:17:36 pjb: is it a Lisp controlled device? 12:17:52 Posterdati: it probably uses gensym g2 somewhere 12:18:29 Xach: are there List programmed OS like genera? 12:18:30 Posterdati: it could have, if Erann had been more succesful :-) 12:18:58 Posterdati: MIT Lisp Machine (CADR). 12:19:00 Posterdati: What is List? 12:19:10 pjb: I heard about Mars Rover or a similar machine 12:19:10 But arguably, Genera descend from a fork from it. 12:19:12 soddir 12:19:14 sorry 12:19:20 s/List/Lisp 12:19:25 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 12:19:30 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 12:19:30 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 12:19:47 AFAIK, the Mars Rover don't embed lisp. It was RAX in Deep Space 1 http://www.flownet.com/gat/jpl-lisp.html 12:20:04 But it's possible they use some planning software written in Lisp for things like Mars Rover. 12:20:08 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-150-156.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:20:16 pjb: so they use a OS + REPL? 12:20:44 Yes, RAX was considered an domain specific OS. 12:20:48 And indeed it had a REPL. 12:20:58 ok 12:21:06 See also: http://www-aig.jpl.nasa.gov/public/papers/rax-results-isairas99.ps 12:21:07 would be interesting 12:21:38 and http://spinroot.com/spin/Doc/rax.pdf 12:21:42 I think lisp would be great for embedded systems 12:22:16 Or at least to generate code for embedded systems. 12:22:47 as well 12:23:24 on could eliminate an intermediate level: binary compiling 12:24:32 or use expensive development systems 12:27:11 pnq [~nick@ACA3605C.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 12:27:19 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:28:11 urandom__ [~user@p548A437A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:45 is there a scanf like function for Lisp to read data from an ascii file? Thanks 12:29:51 read 12:30:10 pjb: ok, does it read char by char? 12:30:15 I mean 12:30:36 No, you can't do the equivalent of scanf("%3s%3s",a,b); 12:30:42 I've got: C 40000 40000 0 0 0 title-B.sym 12:30:43 C 42500 48300 1 0 0 diode-1.sym 12:30:43 For this you must use read-line, and subseq. 12:30:50 pjb: ah ok 12:31:12 pjb: I did read-line but now I've actually write a lexical analyzer! 12:31:18 (with-input-from-string (in "C 40000 40000 0 0 0 title-B.sym") (list (read in) (read in) (read in) (read in) (read in) (read-line in))) 12:31:48 Oops, lacks a (read in). 12:32:00 pjb: format is variable 12:32:25 What kind of variability? 12:32:29 pjb: so I could read a line and then use read on it? 12:32:30 Generalize! 12:32:33 Yes. 12:32:43 a command followed by a variable number of parameters 12:32:45 Also, notice read-from-string takes :start and :end. 12:32:51 like parse-integer. 12:32:54 pjb: good! 12:33:29 You can define a map command -> number of read, optional read-line. 12:33:30 what would be the termination condition for a loop macro? 12:34:04 For strings in the middle, if they're not quoted, you can use read with (readtable-case *readtable*) set to :preserve, and use symbol-name to recover the string. 12:34:40 What I mean, is that you can define a little language to describe the format of each kind of command, and implement an interpreter for this language to read them. 12:34:59 ok 12:35:02 dsl? 12:35:06 Yes. 12:35:12 a piece of cake! :) 12:35:33 -!- Vutral [0YLttXc0kd@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:35:51 You can make it as complex or as simple as you want. Eg. if you want to check the validity of your data, you could specify the expected types or ranges, and your interpreter would check what it reads. 12:36:00 Or you can just use read blindly. 12:36:20 Also consider setting *read-eval* to nil. 12:37:11 pjb: it is a conversion... I have to generate a custom-made netlist description from gschem .sch file :) 12:37:23 Oh, right. 12:37:38 ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 12:37:46 Since it's generated automatically, you may read it blindly. 12:42:12 Beware that there are sometimes annoying little differences. Eg. 10. is an integer in lisp, but a float in C. It wouldn't matter reading it in lisp in general, since lisp arithmetic is generic. When reading strings, the escape sequences are not the same, etc. But usually, READ is enough. 12:42:55 pjb: what the function of collect in loop statements? May I create a list with it? 12:43:08 yes. 12:43:16 (loop for parameters = (read input-line nil) collect parameters 12:43:35 (push parameters parameters-list)) 12:43:56 or simply loop statement return a list? 12:44:32 aaah ok 12:44:39 (loop for i from 0 to 10 collect i) 12:44:39 (0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) 12:44:43 You'd use variables to name the collections if you had several lists to collect, or if you wanted to post process them in the finally clause. 12:44:43 very good 12:44:50 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 12:44:57 (loop for i to 10 collect i) --> (0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) 12:45:13 If you want to make it short, I prefer to keep the from too ;-) 12:46:17 powerful! 12:46:42 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.202.93] has joined #lisp 12:46:52 benny` [~benny@i577A8AB9.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:48:01 counting down. 8:35 12:48:56 pjb: (setf parameters-list (loop for parameters = (read input-line nil) collect parameters))) 12:49:04 loop termination is wrong! 12:49:08 -!- benny` is now known as benny 12:49:14 Indeed. 12:49:17 when do you stop? 12:49:28 pjb: end of line / parameters 12:49:39 And how is it tested? 12:49:48 uh ok 12:50:23 mmmh 12:52:16 *_3b* wonders what sort of setup it takes to stream what looks like ~75k/sec to 85000 people 12:52:40 They go thru CDN such as akamai. 12:52:49 This is done transparently, you hardly notice it. 12:53:12 pjb: (setf parameters-list (loop for parameters = (read input-line nil) collect parameters while parameters))) 12:53:28 Posterdati: if you put the condition after the collect, you will collect the last nil... 12:53:48 -2:50 12:54:22 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:54:49 Vutral [qUsiH4JM44@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 12:55:01 -1:40 12:56:07 -0:30 12:56:38 Go! 12:56:46 what is it? 12:56:53 Endeavor taking off! 12:56:55 i refuse to go 12:57:03 in Space? 12:57:12 anywhere 12:58:12 pjb: collect saved "nil" too in the resulting list 12:58:20 Posterdati: if you put the condition after the collect, you will collect the last nil... 12:59:09 pjb: lol, ok I understood. Thanks 12:59:19 pjb: now it works 12:59:38 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.34.47.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:00:48 and so ended my hope of using CL at work 13:01:20 pjb: how can I convert a string to a number? 13:01:29 testing framework blankly rejected, and now I must produce a lamer solution in Python 13:01:37 Posterdati: what kind of number? 13:01:47 Guthur: Write Lisp that writes Python for you! 13:01:51 20100214 13:02:00 pjb: an integer like 20100214 13:02:00 Posterdati: are you familiar with PARSE-INTEGER? 13:02:06 Xach: no 13:02:11 Posterdati: familiarize yourself. 13:02:14 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:02:28 <_3b> LENGTH can convert strings to numbers too 13:02:28 Guthur: use cl-python? have a page of python-formatted code in every file, so the casual reader just sees this 13:02:38 <_3b> would take a long string to get that number though 13:02:44 *Xach* giggles 13:02:56 *Guthur* wonders if he could get away with that 13:04:05 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.209.190] has joined #lisp 13:04:17 Guthur: I had to write some perl to process a certain kind of billing file format. The format was specified mostly by some .h files. I had a small C program emit sexps from the structures in the .h, then used Lisp to write the perl code... 13:04:20 Posterdati: also read-from-string will convert a string containing digits into an integer as well. 13:04:26 (I was lucky that the C program was so data-driven.) 13:04:31 pjb: thanks 13:05:08 <_3b> read-from-string can do fun things when the string contains more than digits though 13:05:09 tfb [~tfb@92.41.89.222.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:05:15 Guthur: yes, basically, you may do something like parenscript, linj, etc, or you could implement a lisp in python. 13:05:24 pjb: shall I use multiple-value-bind using parse-integer? 13:05:46 Posterdati: if you need to. Usually not. 13:05:55 ok 13:06:12 so first value could be assigned via a simply setf 13:06:14 If you want to parse several integers in the same string, using :start, you will want to collect the second result. Otherwise no. 13:06:24 pjb: ok 13:06:27 Posterdati: I don't know, I don't think in assignment. 13:06:36 You'd just use the result of parse-integer. 13:06:52 <_3b> you could assign both results with setf if you wanted to 13:06:54 ah 13:07:12 pjb: I don't need parse-integer, collect placed it in the list as an integer 13:07:42 nikodemus [~nikodemus@82.181.58.25] has joined #lisp 13:07:47 Posterdati: so why did you ask? :-) 13:08:01 pjb: ok, I'm still too c/c++-centric 13:08:50 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:08:55 So, that was the last launch of Endeavor. Welcome back to the stone age! 13:09:10 pjb: list in c/c++ use to be with homogeneous data unless you use void * pointer or c++ polimorfism 13:11:20 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.209.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:12:58 Yes, but the polymorfic nature of the lisp reader is treated in the first sections of the first chapter of any lisp tutorial. 13:13:12 Posterdati: perhaps you need to read (again) one? 13:13:33 pjb: ? 13:13:38 pjb: no no 13:14:15 pjb: I know that lists could collect different objects: I used this characteristic for my program from the start 13:14:39 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@1x-193-157-205-100.uio.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:15:11 I mean, when they teach you to type at the repl: 42 to get an integer, 4.2 to get a float, "42" to get a string, and fourtytwo to get a symbol... 13:15:23 and (4 2) to get a list. 13:15:44 Each time, it's the same Read from the Repl producing the different results. 13:17:08 yes 13:17:24 I know and it is the kind of stuff that saved me :) 13:18:14 I always would write a c/c++ program to solve electrical circuits, due to lack of time it never came out 13:19:21 I could write it in 2 months starting from scratch 13:19:37 without knowing anything about Lisp itself :) 13:20:21 Lisp is puzzling but yet plain... Even to catch out bugs :) 13:21:03 Posterdati: indeed, it would be crazy to try to do it in C++. 13:21:29 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-132-174.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:21:45 -!- Vutral [qUsiH4JM44@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:22:39 pjb: yes, very difficult 13:22:53 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.209.190] has joined #lisp 13:23:18 pjb: Lisp can easily works with symbols, never seen such thing in a computer language 13:24:37 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@206.228.97.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:24:44 pjb: a programmer is really free to write code in the way he/she prefers 13:25:07 is that a good thing? 13:25:19 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:25:43 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.202.93] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 13:25:58 stassats`: I think yes especially for newbies 13:26:10 stassats`: coming from other programming languages 13:26:37 ah, so that you can write C in Lisp? 13:26:50 one could refine his technique with time 13:27:25 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@gw249-1.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:27:25 -!- wayne [~wayne@unaffiliated/wayne] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:27:30 no, but I would solve several problem using a c/c++ approach if I didn't ask to you people 13:27:40 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.209.190] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:28:37 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 13:28:53 _6502_ [58959a57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.149.154.87] has joined #lisp 13:28:54 In my case I was unlucky, because I should learn Lisp before c/c++ 13:29:17 <_6502_> Funny bug: (dotimes (1- (length x)) (print "Hello, world")) 13:29:45 -!- silenius [~silenus@p4FC22F02.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:30:01 _6502_: start: inc $d020 13:30:06 $inc d021 13:30:10 jmp start 13:30:36 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 13:30:39 <_6502_> posterdati: I was on apple ][, not commodore 64 13:30:55 :( 13:31:08 should cycle the background and border colors in an endless loop, IIRC? 13:31:30 flip214: yes, my first ml program, lol 13:31:34 Vutral [~ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 13:31:36 <_6502_> posterdati: but inc $C030 would have made some noise on Apple ][ 13:31:38 "program" - HAH! 13:31:48 well, yes, sorry ;-) 13:31:58 flip214: the effect was a screen full of colored lines :) 13:31:58 my first was 10 PRINT "..." 20 GOTO 10 13:32:05 -!- lichtblau [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:32:09 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.209.190] has joined #lisp 13:32:26 lichtblau [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 13:32:27 yes, like the fastloaders did 13:32:33 flip214: :) 13:32:50 flip214: do you recall <-L ? 13:33:00 flip214: german turbo tape 13:33:10 <_6502_> only because commodore 64 was a ripoff (given that 64k was about locations, but using $d020 was sort of difficult :-D) 13:33:42 <_6502_> difficult to use to store data, i mean :-) 13:34:06 I had an action replay cartridge IIRC 13:34:30 _6502_: no, it wasn't - just change the page tables in 0 or 1, don't remember exactly 13:35:53 <_6502_> back to work... 13:35:56 -!- _6502_ [58959a57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.149.154.87] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:35:57 http://www.atarimagazines.com/compute/issue57/turbotape.html 13:36:12 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.209.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:36:37 flip214: yes, one can remap memory on c64 13:37:07 flip214: using address $0000 and $0001 as ports to control ROM memory 13:37:19 that's what I tried to say 13:38:05 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 13:38:06 flip214: I thought it was a multiplexer register to assert rom chip CS 13:38:40 not a bad idea at all 13:38:40 -!- loke_ is now known as loke 13:38:41 yes, I used the wrong name ... but that's what I tried to say, anyway 13:38:57 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.209.190] has joined #lisp 13:39:01 I found a lisp interpreter for c64 13:39:07 Posterdati: well, I've known some people that switched this CS register away from their memory map ... 13:39:26 In SLIME, is there a way to restart the underlying SBCL without having to kill the entire Emacs session? 13:39:55 sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has joined #lisp 13:39:57 loke: slime-restart-inferior-lisp 13:40:00 or something like that 13:40:14 Munksgaard: cool, thanks 13:40:52 M-x restart-inferior-lisp 13:40:58 loke: press , and then write restart 13:41:12 ? 13:43:05 longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has joined #lisp 13:43:11 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:44:47 slime-restart... worked fine. Thanks 13:44:53 billitch [~billitch@78.250.134.111] has joined #lisp 13:46:28 eddyc [~quassel@84-53-64-53.adsl.unet.nl] has joined #lisp 13:48:28 -!- Vutral [~ss@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:50:09 rvirding [~chatzilla@c-3c90e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 13:51:54 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 13:52:38 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 13:52:40 Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 13:53:36 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:53:37 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.65.66.58] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:54:02 gaidal [~gaidal@113.65.66.58] has joined #lisp 13:54:26 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:54:47 The_Fellow [~The_Fello@glida.mooo.com] has joined #lisp 13:55:22 -!- jgracin [~jgracin@dh111-186.xnet.hr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:57:39 -!- Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:58:39 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp 14:03:49 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:07:56 jorgeu [~jorgeu@201.210.182.225] has joined #lisp 14:10:07 cbp [~cesarbp@189.139.219.67] has joined #lisp 14:10:57 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 14:11:22 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@31.141.118.99] has quit [Quit: bsod1] 14:11:35 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@212095007015.public.telering.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:12:56 Vutral [gYtPTLlKnu@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:41 ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has joined #lisp 14:15:46 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Client Quit] 14:16:14 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 14:16:16 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.65.66.58] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:16:41 gaidal [~gaidal@113.65.66.58] has joined #lisp 14:16:52 milanj [~milanj_@109-93-128-62.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 14:17:24 -!- cpape [root@linux01.gwdg.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:20:47 -!- jhuni [~jhuni@udp217774uds.hawaiiantel.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:20:48 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.65.66.58] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:21:08 gaidal [~gaidal@113.65.66.58] has joined #lisp 14:22:23 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@195.22.80.141] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 14:22:38 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-172-175.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:22:39 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.65.66.58] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:23:05 gaidal [~gaidal@113.65.66.58] has joined #lisp 14:23:19 -!- sonnym1 [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:23:21 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.65.66.58] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:23:39 gaidal [~gaidal@113.65.66.58] has joined #lisp 14:25:46 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:26:47 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:27:08 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:44 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA3605C.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:32:02 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:32:14 Krystof [~csr21@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 14:33:57 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:34:17 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:34:45 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 14:35:11 -!- Vutral [gYtPTLlKnu@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:43:02 muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:44:32 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:46:42 -!- longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:50:43 -!- ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:52:49 -!- pyrony [~epic@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:56:05 Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:06 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.65.66.58] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:57:08 gaidal [~gaidal@113.65.66.58] has joined #lisp 14:57:57 -!- The_Fellow [~The_Fello@glida.mooo.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:59:09 ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has joined #lisp 15:01:10 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-zmwmcvwyrkjgfnai] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:02:13 bobbysmith0071 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 15:03:26 -!- Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:03:40 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:04:34 sonnym1 [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 15:05:03 -!- jingtao`` [~jingtaozf@123.120.26.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:06:05 The_Fellow [~The_Fello@glida.mooo.com] has joined #lisp 15:08:26 fgump [~fgump__@188.74.82.177] has joined #lisp 15:08:49 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:08:58 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 15:09:05 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 15:09:27 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-47-164.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:09:38 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-47-164.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:32 -!- orivej [~orivej@host-6-152-66-217.spbmts.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:10:33 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.65.66.58] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:10:57 gaidal [~gaidal@113.65.66.58] has joined #lisp 15:14:58 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:15:51 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.202.93] has joined #lisp 15:16:02 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:16:11 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 15:16:24 dullard [~user@188-223-137-38.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:16:56 pyrony [~epic@184.233.59.209] has joined #lisp 15:17:47 Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:03 sellout- [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:09 -!- Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:24:09 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.65.66.58] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:24:50 gaidal [~gaidal@113.65.66.58] has joined #lisp 15:26:19 -!- pyrony [~epic@184.233.59.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:31:27 pyrony [~epic@72-57-230-156.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:52 pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:32:38 Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 15:32:40 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.65.66.58] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:32:43 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:32:55 -!- chp [~chp@2001:da8:a000:155:5eff:35ff:fe0c:c3ef] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:34:53 -!- zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:38:19 -!- pyrony [~epic@72-57-230-156.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:39:33 zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.1] has joined #lisp 15:40:50 Amadiro [~Amadiro@1x-193-157-205-100.uio.no] has joined #lisp 15:41:01 pnq [~nick@ACA3577E.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 15:44:38 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.202.93] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:45:06 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.202.93] has joined #lisp 15:46:37 loke_ [~elias@bb119-74-155-134.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 15:46:37 -!- loke [~elias@bb119-74-152-158.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:47:41 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:50:19 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:51:54 Areil [~user@113.172.38.123] has joined #lisp 15:53:40 c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-hepdtsnguuudewnz] has joined #lisp 15:55:25 wanderingelf [~matt@c-71-61-22-64.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:56:16 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-hepdtsnguuudewnz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:57:07 -!- cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:58:00 -!- eddyc [~quassel@84-53-64-53.adsl.unet.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:58:18 pyrony [~epic@office1.klout.com] has joined #lisp 16:00:22 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:00:34 -!- loke_ [~elias@bb119-74-155-134.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:02:08 -!- Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:03:40 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:04:09 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.155.68] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:05:10 Vutral [KQ6MAjVfTN@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:10 -!- cbp [~cesarbp@189.139.219.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:07:30 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d0030c5.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:53 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:08:08 Harag [~phil@dsl-242-248-163.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:08:51 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-215-29.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:11:09 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:12:06 postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-243-39.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 16:13:31 symbole [~user@50-56-28-56.static.cloud-ips.com] has joined #lisp 16:14:25 guess everybody has their head down hacking, today. :) 16:14:44 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.202.93] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:15:05 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.202.93] has joined #lisp 16:15:46 -!- Krystof [~csr21@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:15:56 -!- Vutral [KQ6MAjVfTN@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:16:01 baggles [~bill@craftsmanltd.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:17:04 I wish. 16:17:52 Bronsa [~brace@host120-178-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:18:39 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 16:18:46 gz [~gz@209-6-49-85.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 16:18:57 On the plus side, I've managed to beat Emacs into shape - id est, I've gotten Viper mode working to my satisfaction. 16:19:46 heh 16:20:13 blog that little journey up so the next time somebody wanders into #lisp hating emacs we can point to the document and be done with it. :) 16:20:30 Hm, I should. 16:20:53 it seems to happen every couple of days. 16:21:21 Helpful is that at some point in the last few years someone finally got emacsclient to open up its own frames. 16:21:48 gnuclient used to manage it nicely, but XEmacs had other issues that made me not wish to use it heavily. 16:21:49 -!- Triplefault [~Mouse@adsl-72-145-220-220.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:21:59 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp 16:22:03 Although I don't remember what they were now. It was a long time ago. 16:22:21 i switched from xemacs to gnuemacs about two years ago. 16:24:38 I think something that helps in my case is that I was never a big Vim fan. I started off with nvi. 16:24:44 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA3577E.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:24:47 Viper does that stuff quite well. 16:25:04 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-bplcjoysedfbcwdi] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:25:53 The final bit was getting Viper to eat escapes properly, so I don't escape-to-command-mode, try to move up a line or two, and have it treat the escape as meta-modifying-k. 16:28:29 sounds to me like it would have been easier to intern emacs... 'course, that's work I did 20 years ago. :) 16:28:41 intern? internalize? 16:28:48 yeah 16:29:28 I actually used Emacs before ever using vi. :P I've got both more or less internalized. I simply dislike pretending there's no command mode, and having to dedicate a finger to holding down control. :P 16:29:30 limetree [~simon@c-23e8e155.1226-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:29:45 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.41.89.222.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:29:45 I like Viper in that it lets me use either command set. 16:30:05 well, it's cool that the option is there. 16:30:09 nikodemus_phone [~androirc@87-93-162-0.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 16:30:11 But until this morning, I couldn't get it to make good on its promise that escape would move me to command mode. 16:30:16 Yes. 16:31:00 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 16:31:00 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 16:31:00 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 16:34:13 mippymoe89 [~mippymoe8@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:15 spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-132-27.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:35:29 I wonder if an emacs mode for vim is possible. 16:36:05 Define emacs mode 16:36:29 You can set up as many interactive mode mappings as you like, and define as many commands as you like 16:36:31 a mode that would allow you to treat a vim editing session like an emacs editing session. 16:36:46 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:36:46 I guess that's what I'm question, I don't understandw hat an emacs editing session is 16:37:01 You'd have to implement a Lisp interpreter in Vim. :-P 16:37:05 You can even have chained interactive mode mappings in vim, so you get the whole thing 16:37:21 Yeah, if you're looking for the extensible part of it, that's like asking emacs to be able to parse vimscript :P 16:37:27 Which makes little sense to me 16:37:55 I was thinking more about the basic emacs command keys for editing. 16:38:47 Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:54 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:38:57 I don't think anyone has done it, but it probably wouldn't be that hard. Just very tedious 16:38:59 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@99-27-205-152.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:39:08 There's analogs to most of them, you would just ened a very big mapping file 16:39:14 rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 16:39:59 my last regular use for vi[m] was in system administration, and since jed starts just as fast, I tend not to use it at all anymore. 16:40:23 -!- sonnym1 [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:40:40 Nodnod. I think most people are that way. If you take away vim's modal editing philosophy, all you have left is a very shoddy editor. 16:40:44 Probably why no one has done this. 16:41:04 Maybe shoddy isn't the right word, barebones? 16:41:09 if i wanted emacs-mode for vim i would head immediately to the nearest hospital for medical attention 16:41:13 There's not a lot to vim other than modal editing :P 16:41:19 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:41:22 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A437A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:41:40 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@1x-193-157-205-100.uio.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:41:54 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c-3c90e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:42:29 That's a little bit like saying there's not a lot to music other than pitch and tempo... 16:42:46 -!- spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-132-27.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 16:43:16 totally OT but this is currently making me pretty happy: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/shuttle/shuttlemissions/shuttle_google_earth.html 16:46:24 tcr [~tcr@62.50.238.7] has joined #lisp 16:46:49 sonnym1 [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 16:47:27 "All one has to do is hit the right notes at the right time and the instrument plays itself." 16:48:10 Phoodus: if you're playing an organ like Bach, that's true. Most other instruments, not so much. 16:51:11 All one has to do is hit the proper keystrokes, and [vi|emacs] edits itself :) 16:51:14 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.209.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:52:10 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:52:17 of course, complete reduction of programming: http://xkcd.com/722/ 16:52:52 -!- Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:54:43 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-49-85.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 16:55:01 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-16-101.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:40 cbp [~cesarbp@189.139.219.67] has joined #lisp 16:55:57 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:56:03 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 16:57:44 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-156-48.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:13 muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:02 snearch [~snearch@f053003239.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:04:55 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:07:33 drdo [~user@194.210.228.213] has joined #lisp 17:07:36 udzinari [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 17:07:59 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip68-231-47-70.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:11:21 Krystof [~csr21@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:15:01 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:17:11 -!- jorgeu [~jorgeu@201.210.182.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:18:47 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.202.93] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:18:54 -!- udzinari [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: zzzzzzZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzz] 17:19:02 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-32-12-181.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:19:08 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.202.93] has joined #lisp 17:21:50 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 17:25:26 jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-248.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:26:08 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:28:50 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.233.177] has joined #lisp 17:28:59 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-215-29.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:29:37 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.202.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:29:37 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 17:37:15 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.233.177] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:37:38 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.233.177] has joined #lisp 17:37:39 -!- Munksgaard [~Philip@1807ds2-noe.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:37:59 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-222-242.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:39:19 markskilbeck [~markskilb@host81-152-185-159.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:39:19 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@host81-152-185-159.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 17:39:19 markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 17:40:10 -!- splittist [~splittist@96.98.202.62.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:42:50 -!- drdo [~user@194.210.228.213] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:43:16 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.233.177] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:43:41 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.233.177] has joined #lisp 17:50:51 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:51:15 -!- fgump [~fgump__@188.74.82.177] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:52:26 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 17:53:06 -!- hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:55:51 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.233.177] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:56:08 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.233.177] has joined #lisp 18:03:18 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:54 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:05:00 hi 18:05:05 pjb: :) 18:05:11 gigamonkey: :) 18:06:12 splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 18:07:35 hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:08 pnq [~nick@AC8103CD.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 18:10:16 nikodemus: around? 18:12:22 -!- cbp [~cesarbp@189.139.219.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:12:42 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:16:06 dlowe, how'd you get on the Lisp Users map? Contacting the guy who made it directly the only option? 18:16:18 I was envious and homesick, looking at the map around you. 18:16:55 ChibaPet: http://xach.livejournal.com/234320.html 18:17:14 Ah, thank you. 18:17:29 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:17:39 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:58 -!- Areil [~user@113.172.38.123] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:18:59 -!- hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:18:59 -!- xan_ [~xan@190.Red-193-152-189.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:19:19 cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 18:19:21 Xach: You're in the middle of the Atlantic? 18:19:53 Again? 18:20:06 That map had such promise, but the details haven't worked out well. 18:20:07 xan_ [~xan@190.Red-193-152-189.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:51 Xach: Probably easier if you just start seasteading. 18:21:01 Heh. Mapping is a pain. 18:21:47 The specific problems with that map is that it's very easy to create multiple pins, easy to accidentally move pins, easy to delete pins, it doesn't show all pins at once. 18:22:02 Plus the earth is constantly rotating. 18:22:31 That makes the pins fly off sometimes. 18:22:38 Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 18:22:41 Xach: what we would need, is a CLI interface to the map! 18:23:29 It would be nice if there was a strong association between one person and one pin, and that person could manipulate their pin as much as they wanted, but nobody else's pin, and it would also be nice if it showed a reduced set of pins depending on the scale, but scaling in always showed all pins in the area. 18:23:49 Probably someone has made an application like that atop google maps but I don't want to look for it at the moment. 18:23:49 zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:03 Xach: send your resume to Google. 18:24:48 There are now *two* pins in Indiana, although I hope to move mine back to the real world as soon as possible. 18:25:08 Indiana is not part of the real world, then? 18:25:16 Not even close, no. 18:25:19 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:25:52 What's the definition of 'real world', then? 18:26:06 Silicon Valley. 18:26:17 Where you have free wifi everywhere. 18:26:18 New England, I was going to say, but that works too. 18:26:39 *Odin-* remarks that the world is fairly small, in that case. 18:26:55 Small but pleasant. 18:27:08 Inaccessible, too. 18:27:23 *Fare* moves xcvb tests from a shell script to Lisp 18:27:39 and it's a pleasure to work with Lisp instead of shell. 18:28:22 Fare: ! 18:28:24 Fare: so true 18:28:36 s/Lisp/anything/ 18:28:37 (there's always scsh) 18:28:40 (had the exact same experience with autobench when I dumped shell) (: 18:28:50 cl pathnames are so much better than basename/dirname 18:28:59 or shell string expressions 18:29:03 -!- billitch [~billitch@78.250.134.111] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:30:17 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-204-121.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:30:35 cmm [~cmm@109.65.209.45] has joined #lisp 18:32:39 urandom__ [~user@p548A7FD0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:32 -!- xan_ [~xan@190.Red-193-152-189.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:36:09 xan_ [~xan@190.Red-193-152-189.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:56 that's not saying much for CL pathnames, though 18:37:45 Fare: Is there any documentation for fare-matcher aside from the cliki page? 18:39:33 apart from what's in the source, not really. 18:40:25 it's rather straightforward to use, sligtly less so to extend 18:43:54 Is CL-SQL the preferred library for doing SQL stuff? I ask because my coworkers and I have been having a fair number of issues with it, especially in a compiled executable. 18:45:43 Qworkescence, what db backend are you using? 18:46:01 the preferred way to deal with SQL is not 18:46:14 aQworkescence: Depends on the DBMS, I think. Some people prefer more primitive backend-specific libraries. 18:46:32 -!- pnq [~nick@AC8103CD.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:46:44 -!- schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:47:11 or more superlative 18:47:40 Fare, sqlite 18:48:01 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:49:31 Maybe it's just LW 5.1 that is really causing the problems. /me shrugs. 18:49:37 markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 18:50:30 *lichtblau* prefers hu.dwim.rdbms, but is not using the SQLite backend 18:52:51 schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 18:54:34 HG` [~HG@p579F7785.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:58 -!- sacho [~sacho@83.228.17.177] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:55:22 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:55:30 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:56:09 markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 18:58:52 -!- schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:59:30 schme [~marcus@c83-254-205-76.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:59:30 -!- schme [~marcus@c83-254-205-76.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Changing host] 18:59:30 schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 18:59:42 ugh, cl-typesetting isn't happy and eats 8G of memory 19:01:38 Fare: by "in the source", you mean as comments? 19:02:02 nostoi [~nostoi@67.Red-81-36-253.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:02 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@67.Red-81-36-253.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:02:04 apparently, while computing the size of a table 19:02:20 yes 19:02:27 bege [~bege@S0106001cf0520ea3.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:38 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 19:10:01 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 19:10:01 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 19:10:01 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 19:12:36 rvirding [~chatzilla@h88n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 19:14:27 -!- rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Quit: rpg] 19:14:28 -!- xan_ [~xan@190.Red-193-152-189.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:15:21 xan_ [~xan@190.Red-193-152-189.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:31 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053003239.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 19:15:43 stis [~stis@host-90-235-203-56.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 19:16:23 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:44 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@vpnsh0015.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 19:19:51 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 19:25:21 gz [~gz@209-6-49-85.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 19:26:14 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-100-24.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:26:14 -!- xan_ [~xan@190.Red-193-152-189.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:26:28 xan_ [~xan@190.Red-193-152-189.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:14 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-100-24.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has left #lisp 19:29:44 carlocci [~nes@93.37.209.164] has joined #lisp 19:30:01 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:30:44 does anyone else use reader-evaluation in this way? Is this sane, or is it going to make any reviewers eyes bleed? http://paste.lisp.org/display/122033 19:31:11 bobbysmith0071: I'd use a macrolet. 19:33:56 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-38-156-48.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:34:08 the problem I had with that approach was that the same macro wasnt usable for defclass, defcomponent, def-view-class etc... and I didnt like the idea of specifiying a sep macro for each of those classes (unless I am misunderstanding) 19:34:12 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-156-48.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:56 bsod1 [~osa1@31.141.10.49] has joined #lisp 19:35:17 Use a macrolet to expand into defclass. It's not much more typing than #., and can even save some repetition if you group definitions together. 19:35:27 MoALTz_ [~no@92.8.156.160] has joined #lisp 19:35:28 i'd write defclass directly 19:35:30 -!- bobbysmith0071 is now known as bobbysmith007 19:35:37 -!- ebzzry [~ebzzry@180.192.232.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:36:06 sure. Sometimes you just want to be lazy; I prefer using a macrolet then, because it's easier for readers to understand what's going on. 19:37:45 stassats`: I had a emacs keyboard macro to fill in the slot-defs from the slot name, but that seemed hacky (and also CL's domain more than emacs) in that none of my co-workers had this available and all of the extra words seemed like noise over the default (given that pretty much all my classes have the same slot def, other than the name). 19:37:55 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.8.227.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:38:27 either way thanks for the feedback, I will keep my ugliness out of public code ;) 19:38:34 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-176-90.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:38:44 ebzzry [~ebzzry@180.192.232.84] has joined #lisp 19:38:48 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-176-90.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:51 stassats`: your i3 built sbcl in 3 minutes? 19:39:06 Kneferilis [5d6d8465@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.109.132.101] has joined #lisp 19:39:16 Hello! 19:39:23 Xach: ! 19:39:32 With Armed Bear Common Lisp, can you mix common lisp code with hava? 19:39:35 With Armed Bear Common Lisp, can you mix common lisp code with java? 19:39:49 my new i7 also took 3 minutes. it should have taken either 7 minutes or 77 seconds :( 19:40:01 Xach: boo 19:40:12 (not really: yay. 3 minutes is an /awesome/ build time) 19:42:35 *splittist* doesn't understand gigamonkey's latest blog entry... 19:42:47 antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:48:13 Xach: i5 19:48:29 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-132-174.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:48:41 and it took 3.i5 minutes 19:49:20 brodo_ [~brodo@p5B0225E7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:46 splittist: about quicklisp? i would think it's to improve the google score for quicklisp 19:51:22 -!- brodo [~brodo@p5B022797.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:51:22 -!- brodo_ is now known as brodo 19:51:51 stassats`: and/or combat the perception of CL as lacking in libraries 19:51:59 though it would only work well if where you put it has a good score already 19:52:51 stassats`: ah. well, sadly the i7 is not 7/5ths faster. it seems to be exactly the same speed. 19:53:02 Kneferilis, you can certainly invoke Java libraries. As for mixing syntax, I suspect not. 19:53:39 at least you can build more sbcl at the same time 19:53:44 stassats: Oh. It 404ed for me. 19:54:04 (supposedly) 19:54:13 splittist: written, syndicated, then withdrawn at my request 19:54:28 (I don't think quicklisp needs a google bombing campaign) 19:54:45 i think it needs MORE LIBRARIES 19:54:55 minion: chant! 19:54:56 MORE LIBRARIES 19:55:00 Xach, are you having an issue with fare-matcher ? 19:55:05 ChibaPet: I see. Thanks. 19:55:31 Fare: I had hoped to provide some offline documentation for it. Maybe I will fetch the cliki page to do that. 19:55:31 Xach: ah! Quick-memory-hole strikes again! 19:56:02 quick-ministry-of-truth 19:56:02 ChibaPet: can't you put lisp code in a string and have java run it? 19:56:24 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:58:27 hi 19:58:40 Xach: presumably, I should move the comments to a separate file. 19:58:47 Xach, what format do you prefer? 19:59:15 Fare: I like a HTML version pretty well. 19:59:15 -!- xan_ [~xan@190.Red-193-152-189.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:59:37 Fare: I don't mind if it's written in something else as long as it's not hard to create the HTML version. That usually means funky and obscure tools, even if written in Lisp, can be painful to me. 19:59:45 Kneferilis, I don't suspect you could do that. My limited understanding is that ABCL compiles Lisp to Java bytecode. 20:00:18 ChibaPet: I see. Thanks pal. 20:00:23 xan_ [~xan@193.152.189.190] has joined #lisp 20:00:25 Xach: does the html have to be checked in with the code, or is it OK to have it linked to somehow? 20:00:47 I'd rather check in, say, scribble docs, and compile it with exscribe 20:00:57 (or the racket suite, if compatible enough) 20:01:57 -!- Guthur [c743cb8c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.140] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:02:07 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 20:02:08 -!- xan_ [~xan@193.152.189.190] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:02:24 It is much easier for me if generated documentation is available as part of the code. 20:03:18 hum. I don't like to checkin produced stuff into git. 20:04:34 Is there documentation on CFFI's compatibility layer for UFFI? 20:05:02 xan_ [~xan@190.Red-193-152-189.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:18 Fare: I'm not singling out fare-matcher. I'd like to provide easy-to-read documentation for all CL projects. Some projects require unusual toolchains to produce the documentation. 20:06:39 -!- limetree [~simon@c-23e8e155.1226-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:10:44 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 20:11:40 -!- mippymoe89 [~mippymoe8@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:15:10 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-248.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:15:22 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 20:16:19 Xach: I understand. I'm trying to figure out what way to make documentation available in a common format without requiring everyone to checkin non-source objects 20:17:37 Fare: I used texinfo for local-time 20:18:51 -!- nikodemus_phone [~androirc@87-93-162-0.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: AndroIRC] 20:19:26 texinfo often fails. I'd suggest reStructured Text. At least, we can read the source of the document. 20:20:16 PuffTheMagic_ [8071f848@gateway/web/freenode/ip.128.113.248.72] has joined #lisp 20:20:26 ChibaPet: you can use its interpreter. 20:20:28 are there any gpg libs for lisp? 20:21:09 Oh, invoke ABCL's interpreter from Java code? Interesting. 20:21:18 yes. 20:21:29 Interpreter.interpreter() or something like it. 20:21:48 I might go for .rst 20:23:03 obbele [~johan@161.103.84.79.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:31 -!- postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-243-39.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Quit: postamar] 20:25:35 yes, but will you get back? 20:26:41 pjb: fails how? 20:26:56 so, you can mix Java and ABCL by storing ABCL in a string and using the interpreter? 20:27:26 but how will you pass data structures to abcl and get data structures back? 20:27:44 -!- stis [~stis@host-90-235-203-56.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:27:54 Kneferilis: by using its java apis? 20:28:11 hmm 20:28:33 -!- tcr [~tcr@62.50.238.7] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:28:33 the interpreter will accept data structures and return data structures? 20:28:44 dlowe: I don't know, I don't master tex, but usually when a project uses tex for it's documentation, it fails. 20:28:44 yes. 20:29:03 if you have a lispo exporession you can org.armeedbear.lisp.Lisp.readFromString("(+ 1 1)"); 20:29:09 pjb: it's not tex 20:29:25 pjb: different format, despite the aggravating similarity in name 20:29:28 LispObject obj = org.armeedbear.lisp.Lisp.readFromString("(+ 1 1)"); 20:29:38 Kneferilis, dmiles: that's what Interpreter.interpreter() does. 20:29:44 tcr [~tcr@62.50.238.7] has joined #lisp 20:29:51 (how to gert froma string to s lisp object) 20:30:19 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@h215n1c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Quit: add^_] 20:30:20 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 20:30:25 ehu: yes at first you must create an interpretor ,, befoire using any of the Lisp.methods 20:30:53 so, in short you can mix ABCL code and C# code? 20:31:20 i have a project that mixes it with C# code yes 20:31:38 sounds interesting 20:31:38 is that what you found Kneferilis (OpenSim4OpenCog) ? 20:32:07 OpenSim4OpenCog? what is that? 20:32:12 so one first creates a lisp interpretor, then they get the environment, lispthread... then with those can call ABCL functions 20:32:23 foot-odor [~ali@95.76.74.76] has joined #lisp 20:32:36 its a lispclient for secondlife 20:32:38 hello 20:32:43 anyone use lispbox? 20:32:47 dmiles: nice 20:33:02 -!- basho__ [~basho__@dslb-092-076-074-138.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:33:10 so people can make AI and test it 9inside secondlife 3d worlds 20:33:20 in my case though, I will use the .NET version, I hope it's not difficult to set up, it doesn't seem to have any documentation 20:33:37 yes mine is test on mono and .net 20:34:22 *dmiles* getting the ABCL part of it 20:34:31 that code might be easy to understad 20:34:36 anyone use emacs here? 20:34:36 -!- tcr [~tcr@62.50.238.7] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:34:45 -!- HG` [~HG@p579F7785.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:34:55 what a strange question 20:34:57 only just about everyone 20:35:02 tcr [~tcr@62.50.238.7] has joined #lisp 20:35:08 dmiles: what documentation you used to install abcl in a C# .NET application? 20:35:16 http://code.google.com/p/opensim4opencog/source/browse/trunk/lib/MushDLR223/ScriptEngines/ABCLInterpreter.cs 20:35:16 can anyone tell me how to load a font when emacs starts? 20:35:27 foot-odor: try #emacs channel instead 20:35:27 not by .xdefaults 20:35:43 i'm not having much luck there 20:35:45 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-93-128-62.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 20:35:47 so i thought i'd try here :) 20:35:48 this channel only concerns questions about Emacs with regard to its usage for writing Common Lisp 20:36:01 milanj [~milanj_@109-93-128-62.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 20:36:13 dmiles: doesn't the interpreter comes installed in abcl? 20:36:20 Kneferilis: righ tnow i just distrubte a ABCL.Net.dll 20:37:08 in the robot API .. I have various interpretor wrappers.. ABCL is wrappered for ease of use in C# 20:37:49 so if a person switches between javasript or common lisp or prolog they instance a generric interpretpor 20:37:55 then the code lets them interop 20:37:57 dmiles: who wrote that .cs file you showed me? does it come with abcl .NET, the interpreter? 20:37:58 stassats`, but i use emacs for clisp, i use lispbox which contains emacs 20:38:09 Kneferilis: org.armedbear.lisp.Interpreter....() 20:38:14 Kneferilis: yes. 20:38:26 ehu: thanks 20:38:35 i'm sure #emacs denizens are capable of answering that question 20:38:49 Kneferilis: I wront that .cs file.. ehu maintains the java 20:39:23 dmiles: I see, so you wrote that file, but it is included in abcl .NET? 20:39:49 it's an honor to meet so good programmers 20:39:56 its in MushDLR223.dll that contains this specific class 20:40:22 that uses ABCL.Net.dll which is in the same repository 20:40:51 i have a batch file that converts abcl.jar to ABCL.Net.dll 20:40:59 *dmiles* looks for it.. 20:41:44 http://code.google.com/p/opensim4opencog/source/browse/trunk/runprebuild.bat 20:42:11 dmiles: thanks 20:43:59 dmiles: can I use latest version DLLs of IKVM with ABCL.NET.dll? To reference them in a C# application? 20:44:24 pnq [~nick@AC850897.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 20:44:31 give it a shot with the ones in http://code.google.com/p/opensim4opencog/source/browse/trunk/bin/ first 20:44:45 (the IKVM and the ABCL ones) 20:45:15 then it is possible you can use the nextest IKVM with it and it will still work 20:45:25 newest* 20:45:54 that's nice 20:45:58 I have to go to sleep 20:45:59 i had to hack ABCL a bit to make it work with IKVM 20:46:04 goodnight all 20:46:11 Good night, Knef. 20:46:11 *night* 20:46:36 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host120-178-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:46:36 -!- tcr [~tcr@62.50.238.7] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:46:36 dmiles: there is a version of abcl already converted to dll 20:46:40 Landr [~user@78-22-153-222.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 20:46:51 -!- ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:46:51 yes.. go ahead and use that 20:47:07 yep 20:47:10 goodnight 20:47:12 -!- Kneferilis [5d6d8465@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.109.132.101] has left #lisp 20:47:15 i been using that one for a couple years and it is pretty good 20:47:19 -!- baggles is now known as wivlaro 20:47:48 tcr [~tcr@62.50.238.7] has joined #lisp 20:49:01 -!- foot-odor [~ali@95.76.74.76] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:51:07 gigamonkey: http://gigamonkeys.wordpress.com/2011/05/16/time-for-another-google-bomb/ is 404. 20:51:33 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-222-242.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:53:38 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-164-21.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:54:49 pjb: it's intentional 21:01:03 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-100-24.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 21:01:12 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-100-24.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Client Quit] 21:02:02 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-93-128-62.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 21:02:31 milanj [~milanj_@109-93-128-62.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 21:03:16 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-93-128-62.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Client Quit] 21:06:35 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-4a58ba8e.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:38 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 21:07:02 TristamWrk [~tristam@midnight-blue-30.dynamic.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 21:07:44 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@vpnsh0015.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:09:32 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:13:20 cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:53 b4 [~b4@sd4406ccf.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #lisp 21:15:09 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 21:15:17 Hello (Common) Lispers 21:15:21 -!- b4 is now known as b4|hraban 21:16:13 I have spent the past day reading and thinking about concurrency models in Lisp, and I feel the need to ask for your expert opinions :) 21:17:05 basically, I would like to hear anything (pro or con) anybody has to say about any specific model, specifically how it is implemented in Lisp or just generally 21:17:31 i don't thin that lisp calls for anything special 21:17:37 and, more specifically, how do you feel about coroutines/generators and channels, the style that Go employs? 21:17:37 s/thin/think/ 21:18:29 probably a good idea when it works well. I don't think any lisp so far has decided on a high level model to expose; you get to build the abstraction you want. 21:18:56 pkhuong: do you know of a specific implementation that is either succesful, or exactly the opposite? 21:19:40 for example, I know that Python's approach, with generators, is semantically very interesting, but in practice (CPython) I do not see any effect 21:20:00 I don't see how python's generators tackle concurrency. 21:20:04 especially considering machines with multi core architecture, in the many tens or hundreds of cores 21:20:16 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@92.8.156.160] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:21:01 pkhuong: generators, buffered if necessary, can be run all on a separate core quite easily, given certain limitations 21:21:05 MoALTz [~no@92.8.156.160] has joined #lisp 21:21:34 so if you do a (e.strip() for e in myfile), and you read from that, the generator could actually start reading the rest of the file before you request it 21:21:47 in a background thread 21:22:21 (I am assuming that once something can be threaded, it can be distributed over cores, but that is not toooo relevant here... mostly concerned with possibilities for concurrency (threading) in the first place, the rest hopefully follows :)) 21:23:12 you write concurrency, but proceed to talk of parallelism. 21:23:38 I thought concurrency in the same python process wasn't really a good idea with GIL 21:24:02 read good idea as worthwhile idea 21:24:22 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d0030c5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:24:37 guthur: yeah, that's what I mean: the idea lends itself to some interesting usecases but it is not done in Python, e.g. 21:24:48 so what about lisp 21:25:20 -!- schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 21:25:26 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:25:31 unfortunately I'm off to bed so can't hang around for the answer, hehe 21:25:55 probably will boil down to 'maybe' anywya 21:25:59 anyway* 21:26:16 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 21:26:24 ok, night'all 21:26:42 limetree [~simon@c-23e8e155.1226-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 21:27:22 pkhuong: well that is my point: first you need the semantics, a model that allows you to easily separate your program in concurrent blocks 21:27:48 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@31.141.10.49] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:27:53 and then assuming that that even exists in CL, I would like to know: is there actually a solid implementation that takes this and then makes parallel code? 21:28:13 takes what? 21:28:16 well, "parllel code"... code that causes it to be executed in parallel 21:28:22 takes the program you wrote in that model 21:28:39 so, for example, go has goroutines which you can define to work with channels 21:28:52 erlang is clearly built around this whole concept 21:29:07 common lisp implementations tend to expose pthread-level tools. 21:29:11 and they both offer implementations that actually produce parallel code 21:29:12 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:29:14 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-38-156-48.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:29:48 -!- sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:29:48 pkhuong: ok, I am definitely not to keen on manually guiding threads 21:30:34 You get to build your own model. 21:30:46 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:31:18 pkhuong: sounds great. building my own implementation that actually makes sure that code written for that model is executed in parallel? NOT great. 21:31:33 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:59 if I had the skills and time to do that I would be in a happy place 21:32:22 -!- TristamWrk [~tristam@midnight-blue-30.dynamic.rpi.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:32:41 schme [~marcus@c83-254-205-76.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:32:41 -!- schme [~marcus@c83-254-205-76.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Changing host] 21:32:41 schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 21:32:51 alama [~alama@62.28.134.73] has joined #lisp 21:35:32 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:36:36 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:36:41 TristamWrk [~tristam@midnight-blue-30.dynamic.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 21:36:43 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:36:55 -!- TristamWrk [~tristam@midnight-blue-30.dynamic.rpi.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 21:39:50 -!- prip [~foo@host131-130-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:43:45 -!- dullard [~user@188-223-137-38.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:43:47 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-164-21.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:45:15 kai__ [~kai@e179000185.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:45:18 -!- kai__ is now known as wetnosed 21:46:09 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:46:31 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:47:56 -!- sonnym1 [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:51:25 -!- cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:51:51 sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has joined #lisp 21:51:56 prip [~foo@host72-9-dynamic.7-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 21:53:33 literal [hinrik@w.nix.is] has joined #lisp 21:55:02 -!- schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:56:59 -!- tcr [~tcr@62.50.238.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:57:37 tcr [~tcr@62.50.238.7] has joined #lisp 22:00:32 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 22:00:40 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:00:54 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 22:00:54 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 22:00:54 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 22:01:34 schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 22:04:16 ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:05:45 Good morning everyone! 22:09:52 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:10:35 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-4a58ba8e.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:14:14 cheater79 [~cheater23@ip-80-226-237-130.vodafone-net.de] has joined #lisp 22:17:54 -!- limetree [~simon@c-23e8e155.1226-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:19:39 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:19:49 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:22:33 -!- tcr [~tcr@62.50.238.7] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:24:23 tcr [~tcr@62.50.238.7] has joined #lisp 22:25:54 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:26:44 hello beach 22:27:23 mippymoe89 [~mippymoe8@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:02 -!- Younder [~john@41.202.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:28:51 -!- schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:29:47 schme [~marcus@c83-254-205-76.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:29:47 -!- schme [~marcus@c83-254-205-76.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Changing host] 22:29:47 schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 22:35:32 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:38:01 Xach: i notice that in the source for quicklisp that you define many (small) packages; it's almost one package per lisp file 22:38:09 what's the rationale for that? 22:38:36 Pirxs [~Pirx@195.225.69.9] has joined #lisp 22:42:20 Bahman [~Bahman@2.144.243.161] has joined #lisp 22:42:52 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:44:18 alama: I developed the code for each package almost independently and wanted to combine them without worrying about symbol conflicts. It was mostly a coincidence or just convenience that each module was one file. 22:44:47 ok 22:44:59 i was wondering whether this is a general methodology 22:45:14 not sure 22:46:52 -!- Pirxs [~Pirx@195.225.69.9] has quit [] 22:47:20 I don't think many people do it 22:48:16 BrokenCog [~bc@pool-70-19-45-157.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:49:16 I think of the quicklisp client as an application with supporting libraries. 22:50:23 -!- Patzy [~something@bro29-1-82-245-180-56.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:50:33 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl4-4-52.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 22:52:07 -!- sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:53:49 alama: Packages are the encapsulation unit ... it's where you specify symbol visibility. I don't think it's necessarily had to have many small packages ... 22:53:58 s/had/bad 22:54:21 reb`: while browsing Xach's code for quicklisp, i came to like the idea more as i pondered it 22:54:45 might get annoying to develop that way, though -- i think i'd find myslf constantly tinkering with the package exported symbol lists 22:54:58 files are a code organization unit. sometimes, your encapsulation boundaries fall exactly on the code separation ones (: 22:55:08 true 22:55:25 alama: I worked on the http stuff independently of everything else, for example. And the networking stuff almost independently too. 22:55:32 ok 22:56:17 http://xach.livejournal.com/192603.html <-- note the name & date! 22:57:54 haha 22:58:08 I remember wondering what you were up to back then (; 23:01:40 -!- wanderingelf [~matt@c-71-61-22-64.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:02:46 I was actually worried about someone figuring it out and beating me to the idea 23:03:33 hah 23:03:40 all the fame is yours now! 23:05:11 -!- Landr [~user@78-22-153-222.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:05:26 Xach: it's natural to be worried about that, but since everything is hard work, it's not a real problem. 23:05:48 somebody sure should solve that lisp library problem (; 23:06:51 pjb: also people can't read my thoughts 23:06:57 which was a concern 23:09:56 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:10:35 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-98-113-194-183.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:15 -!- mippymoe89 [~mippymoe8@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:11:32 -!- tcr [~tcr@62.50.238.7] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:12:50 xach: haha ok so with you were just living on the edge? 23:13:36 Patzy [~something@bro29-1-82-245-180-56.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:51 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-113-229.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 23:16:10 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h88n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 23:16:48 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-113-229.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has left #lisp 23:17:17 Sorry if I didn't hear, but is common-lisp.net's git stuff down? Is there an up-to-date CFFI git somewhere? 23:18:24 Qworkescence, I thought CFFI was still on darcs 23:18:45 Fare, on the CFFI website it says "git repository" 23:18:47 it moved to git some time ago 23:19:00 you can find various repos in github 23:19:17 don't know how good they track the original 23:19:30 Qworkescence: cffi is in quicklisp. 23:19:54 (ql:quickload :cffi) should get you some working version. 23:19:59 b4|hraban: edge? 23:20:20 wrt "Xach: I was actually worried about someone figuring it out and beating me to the idea" 23:20:33 pjb, I know, it's not that I want to install it, I need to see if some bugs were fixed 23:20:35 pjb: quicklisp has the latest stable release, not git 23:20:45 katesmith_ [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 23:22:10 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:28:59 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-138-90.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:32:41 -!- katesmith_ is now known as katesmith 23:36:31 -!- pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has left #lisp 23:37:05 -!- pyrony [~epic@office1.klout.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:37:10 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A7FD0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:37:15 b4|hraban: I'm afraid I don't see the connection 23:37:38 ok never mind it's not worth it 23:40:40 -!- PuffTheMagic_ [8071f848@gateway/web/freenode/ip.128.113.248.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:40:52 -!- joshe [~joshe@opal.elsasser.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:41:40 joshe [~joshe@opal.elsasser.org] has joined #lisp 23:42:22 cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has joined #lisp 23:42:40 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 23:47:44 guyute [~guyute@c-24-6-159-176.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:37 -!- z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:52:24 -!- BrokenCog [~bc@pool-70-19-45-157.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:52:45 -!- guyute [~guyute@c-24-6-159-176.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:54:31 -!- alama [~alama@62.28.134.73] has quit [Quit: alama] 23:54:50 does Common Lisp have any mature asynchronous/concurrent/event-loop library? 23:55:05 like Perl's POE and Python's Twisted 23:55:29 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:58 literal: I think iolib aims to be something like that. 23:57:24 hm, looks promising 23:59:31 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 23:59:50 the docs are a bit sparse