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I'm not sure what to do with the current output: (221 75 133 196 222 86 61 150 180 81 242 169 141 250 95 121) 02:31:49 siloxid: what do you want to do? 02:32:55 drdo: I just want to calculate a normal md5 hash, such as (md5hash "aoe") => dd4b85c4de563d96b451f2a98dfa5f79 02:34:13 siloxid: So just print it like that if that's what you want 02:34:24 siloxid: (format nil "~{~2,'0x}" list-of-integers) would do it. 02:34:36 siloxid: ironclad also includes a byte-array-to-hex-string function. 02:35:19 Xach: thanks 02:37:24 Why is it computed like that, instead of (say) a bignum? 02:38:15 tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 02:42:56 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:46:46 beach: pretty sure md5 isn't defined in terms of integers. Otherwise, there would be endianness issues. 02:52:50 Unless it specifies a particular endianness. CRCs are defined in terms of integers. 02:58:48 -!- BountyX [~erhan@76.241.99.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:59:34 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.38.102.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:02:24 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.164.205] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:03:59 -!- el-maxo [~max@p5DE8E4A9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:05:05 el-maxo [~max@p5790F4E5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:30 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-98-113-194-183.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:06:20 -!- Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:10:27 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:16:59 cfy [~cfy@218.75.27.163] has joined #lisp 03:16:59 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.27.163] has quit [Changing host] 03:16:59 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 03:17:41 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.164.205] has joined #lisp 03:18:56 joshe: more like bitfields. 03:20:24 Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:10 xxxyyy1 [~xyxu@222.68.164.205] has joined #lisp 03:22:12 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.164.205] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:22:57 beach: Is the degree at your univ also a degree on Bullshit Tolerance? 03:24:58 drdo: I should hope not. But maybe if you explain a little bit more what you mean, I can be more precise. 03:25:55 gz_ [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 03:25:59 cheezus1 [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 03:26:40 -!- cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:26:57 beach: Meaning that you have quite a few courses that are absolute bullshit (such as modelling, management, software engineering, etc), some that could be really good but are bullshit instead because of the professors and a handful of good ones 03:27:05 -!- BrokenCog [~bc@pool-108-18-170-136.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:27:29 -!- macrocat [~marmalade@99.192.109.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:28:40 -!- gz_ is now known as gz 03:29:03 I am sure we have some of those. Though, I do Software Engineering myself, and a large part of the course is spent identifying and dismissing bullshit in the SE literature. 03:29:23 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:29:55 I regret going into this so much 03:30:00 Why didn't i just go to math? 03:30:04 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 03:30:48 drdo: That one, I can't answer. 03:31:40 beach: Do you know how and why it got this way? 03:32:04 cpape` [root@linux01.gwdg.de] has joined #lisp 03:32:18 -!- Zhivago [~zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:32:30 -!- cibs [~cibs@Sylpheed.Math.NCTU.edu.tw] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:32:44 -!- huehnts [~huehnts@static.213-239-210-158.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:32:47 drdo: We (CS, Informatics, whatever you want to call it) are in a pretty strange position, because we are asked to transmit knowledge that for structural reasons we don't have, because it requires us to have worked actively with software development, whereas we were busy getting PhDs and positions as teachers/researchers. 03:33:06 huehnts [~huehnts@static.213-239-210-158.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lisp 03:33:39 beach: I don't even understand why such courses should be part of it 03:33:53 cibs [~cibs@Sylpheed.Math.NCTU.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 03:33:54 That's not something you can be taught in that fashion 03:33:59 drdo: At the same time, we can't trust industry people to do the teaching, because they don't do research, so they might say any crap that is current practice in industry, whereas we want to transmit research-level knowledge to our students. 03:34:14 It's something you learn when you actually do it 03:34:55 drdo: That position of yours is no longer possible for us, because the gouvernment has given us explicit instructions to teach such things to our students. 03:35:03 *government 03:36:12 -!- cpape [root@linux01.gwdg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:36:18 beach: How are your projects there? Is it usually a fixed project that every student must do and with fairly restrictive rules? 03:37:42 drdo: It varies a lot. The most significant project is in the 1st-year Master program. There are rules about design, coding, report writing, presentation, etc. But they are reasonable ones, because the people teaching that course both practice and do research in the domain. 03:39:15 I'm getting depressed here, I can see much better ways to do this particular project but I must adhere to the very specific set of rules and put up with the horrible code that we have been given 03:40:26 I don't understand why they can't just give you the requierements your project must fulfil and then you can do it however the fuck you want 03:40:39 Or even better, have students propose projects 03:40:56 I fail to see how that wouldn't be a much better education 03:41:00 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-123-180.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:41:31 <_3b> one problem is that 'education' isn't the only goal 03:41:48 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.214.153] has joined #lisp 03:41:56 _3b: What are the goals then? 03:42:03 drdo: That doesn't sound reasonable. In our project course, we specifically want to transmit knowledge about things like modularity, naming conventions, software architecture, test, etc. Consequently, we evaluate the projects with respect to those criteria. 03:42:14 <_3b> (and now that i think about it, another problem is that this is off topic :p ) 03:42:32 <_3b> drdo: providing 'evidence of competence' 03:42:47 <_3b> drdo: which means there needs to be repeatable grading, etc 03:43:29 <_3b> (whether these extra goals are a good thing or not is arguable of course) 03:46:10 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.214.153] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:46:39 beach: I don't see a conflict between what you are saying and what i proposed 03:46:40 symbole [~user@ool-ad02b0d9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:50 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.202.56] has joined #lisp 03:47:22 drdo: You said "and then you can do it however the fuck you want". That seems like a direct conflict. 03:47:32 _3b: I can tell you right away that that goal of compentence is not being met by a long shot 03:48:16 beach: No, it isn't, however the fuck you want just means you get to pick your tools, your design and whatnot, you should still get bad grades for bad ideas 03:48:24 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:49:58 beach: Also, what i particularly interesting is that in this particular project, the code we are given is absolutely horrible, and the guy even knows it, there are comments saying "horrible hack" all over 03:50:03 drdo: We mostly let our students pick the tools and certanly the design. One exception might be that we impose LaTeX for the report, because we want them to understand about semantic markup. 03:50:54 beach: So a student can use whatever language he wants? 03:50:55 drdo: That mimics real situations in industry. I don't see a problem with that. It is part of the training to do maintenance on such code. 03:51:21 beach: what is a good guide to learning how to use latex? 03:51:23 beach: No, it is not good training because we are not allowed to rewrite it in fundamental ways 03:52:06 <_3b> drdo: note that i didn't say /actual/ competence :( 03:52:46 *_3b* is going to drop the topic though, at least on this channel 03:53:46 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA29CAD.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:54:08 pnq [~nick@ACA29CAD.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 04:04:44 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:06:29 drdo: Unless the person (a colleague) imposed it, students can choose the language. But the student can then reject a project that imposes a language. 04:06:35 siloxid: No idea. 04:07:06 beach: We can reject here too, with the unfortunate side effect that we fail the course 04:07:09 drdo: I was just commenting on the crappy code you are given. That's totally normal. 04:07:52 beach: And it doesn't ring any of your alarms that that is "normal" ? 04:11:39 jingtao` [~jingtaozf@123.120.12.54] has joined #lisp 04:11:40 -!- jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.12.54] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:14:42 drdo: being given crappy code is normal in the industry 04:15:23 binarycodes [~sujoy@59.93.201.210] has joined #lisp 04:15:56 siloxid: So i guess the obvious solution to that particular problem is not to teach people not to do that, but to instead teach them to be happy about it? 04:17:09 drdo: no... when you inherit crappy code in the industry you can usually rewrite or refactor it, or complain to people that their code sucks 04:17:11 drdo: I can't fix the entire world, but I can prepare my students for it. 04:17:41 Most CS programs don't teach programming. 04:18:09 Also, i don't see why a CS degree should be about teaching people to be industry monkeys 04:18:48 drdo: I can tell that you are quite bitter right now, and that you think you made the wrong choice. But I think if you give it some thought, you will come to the same conclusion I did, and so end up with a teaching program similar to ours. 04:18:59 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.149] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:19:05 drdo: you could always drop out if you feel extremely unhappy with it 04:19:17 beach: I want to be nowhere near this, this is rotten 04:19:29 drdo: Yeah, I can tell. 04:20:19 drdo: ... but it doesn't help progress to use terms such as "indusrty monkey". 04:20:55 beach: I don't see why a degree in CS should even be concerned with what the industry does or does not, it should be about CS, period 04:21:14 They could have a master's degree specialization to train you for that if that's what you want 04:21:36 drdo: Correct, but then, you asked about our degrees, and those are not CS degrees. They are called "informatique" in French. 04:21:46 beach: Yeah, same here 04:21:51 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-139-192.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:21:56 It's called "Engenharia Informatica" here 04:22:34 That's why i'm saying i should have gone into math 04:22:53 guyute [~guyute@c-24-6-159-176.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:22:56 Because to be honest, i haven't learned much at all 04:23:09 Not what about the degree is supposed to be about 04:23:19 s/about// 04:23:42 actually, that sentence is just fucked, but you get the idea 04:23:44 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.202.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:23:44 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 04:23:49 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-248-241-85.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 04:25:28 -!- guyute [~guyute@c-24-6-159-176.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 04:25:52 drdo: In my opinion, Our programs have a good balance between theory and practice. They don't particularly cater to what industry wants, but what we think it needs. They are practically oriented, but teaches all the theory that is needed to be effective when writing real code, such as complexity, computer architecture, compiler design, operating systems, graph theory, etc. 04:27:06 beach: We have all that 04:27:14 But they are not very good 04:27:30 operating systems is really about unix 04:27:53 compiler design is really about LL and LR parsers 04:28:41 I enjoyed the first year theory of computation course, one of the few courses i actually learned something from 04:29:32 drdo: I try to fix all that. We have a course called "syntax analysis" which teaches parsing techniques, and "compilation" that teaches optimization etc (based on Andy Appel's books). 04:29:38 drdo: I regret not taking more math as well in college. but I'm getting back into it now. 04:29:54 drdo: And I have wanted to make an OS course that is research based, but haven't had the energy yet. 04:30:30 beach: I think that the courses are dumbed down 04:30:46 And i don't understand why, it just makes them not interesting at all 04:30:48 drdo: You might want to speak only for your own university. 04:30:59 beach: Of course i can only speak for my own 04:31:06 drdo: What school do you attend? 04:31:11 www.ist.eu 04:31:33 http://www.ist.utl.pt/en/ 04:32:02 drdo: not to mention, if you really aren't learning anything then it shouldn't hurt to be a double major in math and cs 04:32:17 Find a professor and do some research. 04:32:34 the cs program I knew of required a good deal of math 04:32:41 symbole: I can't find a professor i actually like 04:33:12 siloxid: Ours requires quite a bit 04:33:23 But most of it is not something i'm interested in 04:33:38 I honestly don't care about differential equations and complex analysis 04:34:58 Jasko [~tjasko@206.228.97.2] has joined #lisp 04:37:02 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-141-156.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:58 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-139-192.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:37:58 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 04:42:39 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:44:03 Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.199.197] has joined #lisp 04:49:15 ebzzry [~ebzzry@180.192.232.84] has joined #lisp 04:52:25 Pan3D [~Pan3D@63.208.160.190] has joined #lisp 04:53:01 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.199.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:53:10 -!- pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:53:26 -!- Zeiris_ 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[~shelta@shpd-95-53-166-46.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 07:19:36 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:22:14 hi,can i write lisp to writing binary data as fast as C? my lisp is (time (progn (with-open-file (out "/dev/shm/out" :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) :direction :output :if-exists :supersede :if-does-not-exist :create)(loop repeat 42 do (write-sequence (make-array #.(* 1024 1024) :initial-element 255 ) out))) nil)) my C source code is http://paste2.org/p/1416671. the lisp takes about 3 seconds,and c takes about 0.05 seconds.can the 07:22:14 lisp be faster?thanks:) 07:23:47 your c code doesn't seem to be creating an array each time 07:23:51 <_3b> try :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) in the make-array 07:24:01 <_3b> and yeah, create it in advance too 07:25:56 <_3b> with both of those changes, i get 0.016 sec to /dev/null, down from 2.5 07:26:24 _3b: thanks.lisp takes about 0.2 seconds now:) 07:26:33 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 07:28:47 stassats`: i know the problem now. using #. and :element-type .lisp takes only about 0.058 seconds. 07:28:56 (time (progn (with-open-file (out "/dev/shm/out" :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) :direction :output :if-exists :supersede :if-does-not-exist :create)(loop repeat 42 do (write-sequence #.(make-array #.(* 1024 1024) :initial-element 255 ) out))) nil)) 07:29:12 who taught you to use #.? 07:29:34 sorry. it new version is (time (progn (with-open-file (out "/dev/shm/out" :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) :direction :output :if-exists :supersede :if-does-not-exist :create)(loop repeat 42 do (write-sequence #.(make-array #.(* 1024 1024) :initial-element 255 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) ) out))) nil)) 07:29:46 stassats`: i see from others' code. 07:30:08 that's bad code 07:30:14 stassats`: i learn it from binghe's source code 07:30:16 <_3b> that isn't a valid comparison either, since now you allocate the array before you start timing 07:30:19 or you don't misunderstand what's it doing 07:30:27 s/don't// 07:30:34 <_3b> (and #. is not the right way to do that anyway) 07:30:55 *_3b* wonders if that would dump a 1MB array in the .fasl file 07:31:45 _3b: stassats`: got it.i should create a temp variable instead. 07:32:56 (let ((1m (make-array #.(* 1024 1024) :initial-element 255 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) )))(time (progn (with-open-file (out "/dev/shm/out" :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) :direction :output :if-exists :supersede :if-does-not-exist :create)(loop repeat 42 do (write-sequence 1m out))) nil))) 07:33:32 <_3b> you still don't need the #. unless your compiler is broken 07:33:58 oh.got it:) 07:34:02 *_3b* would prefer the code in a pastebin too, too hard to read all bunched up in irc window 07:34:14 i'm sorry. 07:34:38 <_3b> lisppaste: url 07:34:38 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 07:34:56 using https://github.com/nikodemus/sb-vector-io , it becomes slightly faster 07:34:57 <_3b> ^ we usually use that one, lets you put multiple versions on one page, and has links to the spec, etc 07:35:27 *cfy* pasted "foo.lisp" at http://paste2.org/get/1416703 07:35:41 <_3b> note that you are still creating/filling the array before you start timing, while i assume you time the entire execution of the C programm 07:37:02 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-31-217.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:37:25 <_3b> (not that it should take much of the time, but if you are going to compare, might as well do it right :) 07:37:42 thanks.got it 07:39:04 *cfy* pasted "foo.lisp" at http://paste2.org/get/1416713 07:39:27 Krystof [~csr21@82.109.173.110] has joined #lisp 07:39:39 _3b: i thinks using paste2 in emacs is easy:) 07:39:44 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has joined #lisp 07:40:12 <_3b> yeah, lisppaste used to be easy until the spammers took advantage of it :( 07:40:19 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-54-173.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:40:46 oh.that's bad.... 07:40:53 <_3b> (not that i ever bothered with the emacs stuff anyway though) 07:41:20 :) 07:41:22 _3b: what about lisppaste.org? 07:41:45 <_3b> Posterdati: not sure what you are asking 07:42:09 _3b: spammers are using lisppaste.org? 07:42:12 *stassats`* used emacs stuff, and is unhappy without it 07:42:29 Posterdati: there's no such thing 07:42:49 <_3b> no, spammers were taking advantage of the interface to paste.lisp.org used by the emacs stuff 07:42:58 <_3b> so they had to shut down that interface 07:43:47 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:44:56 that's odd... couldn't it just use a limited number of posts per day/hour? 07:45:05 you could 07:45:15 _3b: ah is actually there a lisppast interface on emacs like the pastebin one for firefox? 07:45:20 s/you/it/ 07:45:27 <_3b> there used to be 07:45:43 removed? 07:45:58 <_3b> siloxid: it 'could' do lots of things if someone the admins trusted had time/motivation to implement it :/ 07:46:18 Posterdati: 3b just described what happened to it 07:46:25 ok 07:46:28 <_3b> right now i'm not even sure it runs on modern sbcl :p 07:48:06 it would be convenient 07:48:08 Why would anyone spam paste? 07:48:14 What's to be gained? 07:48:21 <_3b> to annoy irc channels 07:48:30 <_3b> since it announces pastes in channel 07:48:39 That doesn't sound very profitable :S 07:48:59 but you removed the announce stuff. Did you? 07:49:02 Doesn't produce much lulz either 07:49:42 *_3b* isn't an admin, just reads about it on irc 07:49:59 <_3b> announce stuff was disabled for a while, but was eventually reactivated 07:50:14 _3b: or any other volunteers stepped up to do it. 07:50:31 (re the 'admins' remark) 07:50:41 ebzzry [~ebzzry@180.192.232.84] has joined #lisp 07:51:07 That code conses a lot here, where's all that consing coming from? 07:51:15 lisppaste currently does not run on current SBCL 07:51:31 we're looking for someone to port it. 07:52:49 <_3b> drdo: which code, the one that allocates 42 1MWord arrays? 07:53:05 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 07:54:03 _3b: no, just the writing 07:55:46 <_3b> drdo: http://paste2.org/get/1416713 you mean? that should only cons ~1MiB for the array + whatever objects,buffers,etc an open file has 07:56:00 <_3b> 1,245,000 or so bytes here 07:56:25 -!- guaqua is now known as gual 07:56:30 <_3b> ehu: what needs done to make it run on current sbcl? 07:56:36 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-126-138.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:56:41 drdo: trolling like that is usually just done because people have issues imo 07:57:49 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-187-179.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:58:44 ImpatientSpoon [~ashley@115.6.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:58:52 *_3b* wonders how hard it would be to replicate lisppaste from scratch using modern libs 07:59:43 <_3b> i guess the irc integration would probably still be a hassle, forgot about that part 08:00:17 _3b: why? I mean, cl-irc was stable for me for years. 08:00:19 _3b: Why? That sounds like a trivial part 08:00:55 <_3b> ok, maybe not then :p 08:01:21 guaqua [gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 08:02:02 the syntax hilighting doesn't seem trivial, unless elisp uses the same regex engine than javascript does 08:02:15 *_3b* counts 'colorize' as an existing lib 08:02:31 <_3b> (which is the code from lisppaste extracted to a separate lib) 08:03:40 borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 08:04:41 _3b: if you create something which stores its metadata in a database, we'd more than welcome your contribution! 08:05:21 <_3b> ehu: tempted to work on it, but i can't even keep up with my own projects :/ 08:05:27 but we could provide you with the sources in order to make incremental steps 08:05:31 oh. too bad. 08:05:50 <_3b> is the lisppaste cvs out of date? 08:06:00 no idea. 08:06:23 <_3b> ok, mostly just wondering about the colorize part, since i actually use that bit for some of my stuff 08:06:48 ehu: Why the "never expires" option? 08:07:13 <_3b> drdo: because it is really annoying to find a link with the answer to your question in irc logs, only to find it expired :p 08:07:31 because lisppaste gathers our collective lisp knowledge that way. 08:07:31 oh that 08:07:36 <_3b> (or in google searches, etc) 08:08:35 ehu: How big is it? 08:08:49 the post data that is 08:09:21 4g 08:09:54 how fast does it grow? 08:10:19 <_3b> ~4g/7yrs apparently :p 08:10:28 right. not all that fast. 08:10:37 *_3b* assumes not linearly though 08:10:55 -!- Krystof [~csr21@82.109.173.110] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:11:01 growth has severely gone down now lisppaste isn't on 80 channels anymore 08:11:43 baggles [~bill@craftsmanltd.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:12:24 anyone know of any good articles or ideas on how to structure lisp projects? 08:22:59 -!- limetree [~simon@c-23e8e155.1226-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:24:06 bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.131.72] has joined #lisp 08:26:33 setmeaway [stemearay@183.106.96.30] has joined #lisp 08:29:12 lanthan [~ze@conference/piratenpartei.de/x-mcnzyveiricotrmo] has joined #lisp 08:31:04 -!- lanthan [~ze@conference/piratenpartei.de/x-mcnzyveiricotrmo] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 08:31:56 lanthan [~ze@conference/piratenpartei.de/x-erjabdbintakthdf] has joined #lisp 08:32:19 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:36:23 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-170-203.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:38:48 -!- beach [~user@116.118.72.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:39:14 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-169-246.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:42:55 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-47-164.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:43:42 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-126-138.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:48:13 -!- lanthan [~ze@conference/piratenpartei.de/x-erjabdbintakthdf] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:49:30 Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 08:50:42 -!- hyko- is now known as hyko 08:56:20 wetnosed_ [~kai@e179016206.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:59:02 -!- wetnosed [~kai@f052102196.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:00:49 lanthan [~ze@conference/piratenpartei.de/x-actuwbjrskzvoywb] has joined #lisp 09:01:35 ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 09:02:51 -!- wetnosed_ [~kai@e179016206.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 09:02:58 wetnosed [~kai@e179016206.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:04:15 -!- jfleming_ [~jfleming@124-149-188-145.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:07:14 HET2 [~diman@nat67.mia.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:07:58 -!- siloxid [~user@unaffiliated/siloxid] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:08:13 siloxid [~user@unaffiliated/siloxid] has joined #lisp 09:08:40 jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-248.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:14:12 -!- Salamander__ is now known as Salamander 09:19:19 -!- lanthan [~ze@conference/piratenpartei.de/x-actuwbjrskzvoywb] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:19:25 Krystof [~csr21@82.109.173.110] has joined #lisp 09:21:45 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 09:22:06 Night-Hacks [~amir@95.38.52.69] has joined #lisp 09:24:11 hi. C-x C-s saves the complete repl in a file, is there anyWay to save just lisp codes ? 09:28:46 Night-Hacks: using IBCL. 09:29:07 http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/index.html 09:29:51 Night-Hacks: you may also try dribble. Some implementations may save only the expressions read, while other save also the results returned. 09:29:55 clhs dribble 09:30:12 But you need to activate it at the start! 09:31:10 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 09:31:14 pjb pasted "start dribble" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122015 09:31:22 This is what I have in my rc files. 09:31:23 ok 09:42:26 -!- Night-Hacks [~amir@95.38.52.69] has left #lisp 09:44:20 am0c [~am0c@119.192.218.97] has joined #lisp 09:47:01 -!- Krystof [~csr21@82.109.173.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:48:39 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 09:48:47 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 09:51:21 -!- HET2 [~diman@nat67.mia.three.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:52:18 damn, Night-Hacks leaves again before i get a chance to say "you're doing it wrong" 09:52:30 HET2 [~diman@nat67.mia.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:53:33 minion: memo for Night-Hacks: you shouldn't write code in the REPL, write in the file, compile with C-c C-c and run or test it from the REPL 09:53:33 Remembered. I'll tell Night-Hacks when he/she/it next speaks. 09:54:16 Perhaps we should leave a user manual for #lisp on cliki.net... 09:54:17 *stassats`* ponders whether minion will go down before Night-Hacks appears or not 09:54:46 stassats`: the memos aren't persistent? 09:54:54 wow. my bot had persistent memos 09:55:07 too bad it doesn't work on recent sbcl either 09:55:14 i don't know, but they are sure wouldn't be shown minion isn't present at all 09:55:23 s/are// 09:55:33 ah. hehe. no. 09:59:16 -!- sacho [~sacho@83.228.17.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:01:51 -!- leyyer_su [~user@118.113.141.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:01:52 -!- HET2 [~diman@nat67.mia.three.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:03:10 lifeng [~lifeng@bb116-15-185-57.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 10:08:39 -!- v0|d [~user@93.94.250.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:11:48 sacho [~sacho@83.228.17.177] has joined #lisp 10:13:47 I seem to fail at googling today. How to check if an object has some class in it's hierarchy or is itself an instance of the class? Like Java's instanceof. 10:14:02 typep 10:14:27 typep -_- 10:15:29 -!- Landr [~user@dD5770D33.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:20:10 -!- xxxyyy1 [~xyxu@222.68.164.205] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:20:41 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 10:20:41 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 10:20:41 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 10:24:59 Bronsa [~brace@host120-178-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 10:27:40 lanthan [~ze@conference/piratenpartei.de/x-jlxtifgqmzrmfxij] has joined #lisp 10:29:39 -!- sacho [~sacho@83.228.17.177] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:31:47 Landr [~user@dD5770CB8.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 10:36:14 -!- jingtao` [~jingtaozf@123.120.12.54] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:36:59 jingtao` [~jingtaozf@114.248.169.155] has joined #lisp 10:37:56 tcr [~tcr@62-50-220-94.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 10:40:46 beach [~user@116.118.2.191] has joined #lisp 10:41:00 Good evening everyone! 10:41:10 nikodemus [~androirc@87-93-162-0.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 10:42:56 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:42:56 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 10:42:56 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:42:58 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 10:44:54 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has quit [Quit: be back later] 10:46:44 Good morning beach 10:47:37 drdo: Feeling any better? 10:47:43 -!- nikodemus [~androirc@87-93-162-0.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: AndroIRC] 10:49:18 nikodemus [~androirc@87-93-162-0.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 10:50:30 beach: Certainly 10:50:59 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:55:23 HET2 [~diman@nat67.mia.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:56:09 drdo: I am not sure you were here when I told the others, but I twisted the "syntax analysis" course a bit, and taught parser combinators using Common Lisp. 10:56:46 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@bb116-15-185-57.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 10:56:54 pnq [~nick@AC81E677.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 11:00:35 -!- gual [gua@kapsi.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:01:54 foogronsk [~user@xdsl-78-34-186-129.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:02:59 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-166-46.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:03:35 Hi! I'm trying to install Hunchentoot via asdf-install, but I get the error "Server responded 404 for GET http://common-lisp.net/~loliveira/tarballs/inofficial/alexandria-2008-07-29.tar.gz" 11:03:36 Should I use some other method than asdf-install, or can I fix this to point to a correct location? 11:03:36 11:03:52 foogronsk: Yes, use quicklisp. 11:03:56 asdf-install? really? 11:04:04 beach: Thanks! 11:04:29 minion: Please tell foogronsk about quicklisp. 11:04:31 foogronsk: please see quicklisp: Quicklisp aims to make it easy to get started with a rich set of community-developed Common Lisp libraries. http://www.cliki.net/quicklisp 11:04:57 *stassats`* thought everybody forgot about asdf-install already 11:05:07 stassats`: The hunchentoot website says nothing about Quicklisp, but recommends ASDF. I haven't used Lisp for years. :) 11:05:33 asdf and asdf-install are different things 11:05:41 foogronsk: Notice the difference between ASDF and asdf-install, 11:06:11 beach: Ok thank you, I will... 11:07:39 stassats`: True; thanks. (I'd better email Edi mentioning that the Hunchentoot website still recommends asdf-install, and to mention Quicklisp.) 11:07:58 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 11:08:00 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-222-55.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 11:11:52 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:12:58 sellout- [~Adium@nc-71-48-23-197.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 11:16:16 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has joined #lisp 11:17:07 -!- tcr [~tcr@62-50-220-94.client.stsn.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:17:41 -!- binarycodes [~sujoy@59.93.201.210] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:18:07 foogronsk: quicklisp is relatively new. 11:19:41 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:20:00 -!- rdd [~user@c83-250-52-16.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:21:05 Some of my own projects still recommend asdf-install 11:21:49 urandom__ [~user@p548A6908.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:23:19 Xach: I gotta say, as I went through the docs and installed Hunchentoot, I thought "quicklisp rocks"... 11:27:15 longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has joined #lisp 11:34:00 leyyer_su [~user@118.113.141.232] has joined #lisp 11:35:50 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:36:46 cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.67] has joined #lisp 11:36:46 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.67] has quit [Changing host] 11:36:46 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 11:37:59 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:44:59 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-170-203.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:48:14 -!- HET2 [~diman@nat67.mia.three.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:48:21 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-170-203.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:49:33 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 11:53:50 Aizya [~Aizya@unaffiliated/ashbash] has joined #lisp 11:54:57 splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 11:56:17 morning 11:59:56 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:02:31 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 12:07:30 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.164.205] has joined #lisp 12:07:33 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:14:17 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:14:38 cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.67] has joined #lisp 12:14:38 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.67] has quit [Changing host] 12:14:38 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 12:18:03 z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 12:20:49 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c72ce0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 12:24:45 -!- Aizya [~Aizya@unaffiliated/ashbash] has quit [] 12:24:53 -!- leyyer_su [~user@118.113.141.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:25:13 -!- siloxid [~user@unaffiliated/siloxid] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:25:55 siloxid [~user@unaffiliated/siloxid] has joined #lisp 12:29:54 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-150-156.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:31:02 xan_ [~xan@19.56.21.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 12:36:56 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:38:27 -!- ImpatientSpoon [~ashley@115.6.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:40:46 ikki [~ikki@189.247.114.158] has joined #lisp 12:41:02 -!- xan_ [~xan@19.56.21.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:42:22 Night-Hacks [~amir@95.38.52.69] has joined #lisp 12:42:53 hi while calling this function i get program stack over flow 12:42:53 Night-Hacks, memo from stassats`: you shouldn't write code in the REPL, write in the file, compile with C-c C-c and run or test it from the REPL 12:44:08 benny` [~benny@i577A169F.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:44:28 why ? 12:45:00 Night-Hacks: Did you write in Smalltalk before? 12:45:12 unfortunately no 12:45:18 Night-Hacks: because that's how it's done 12:45:23 *naryl* is just wondering where did you get the idea to write code in the REPL. 12:45:50 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.114.158] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:45:52 ***naryl: thats my invention ! 12:46:10 you're not the first to do so 12:47:03 there are lots of things that new comers dont know 12:47:21 minion: please tell Night-Hacks about slime.mov 12:47:21 Night-Hacks: have a look at slime.mov: "using SLIME" video by Marco Baringer, http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov 12:47:44 Night-Hacks: now you know better 12:48:31 Night-Hacks: don't let the naysayers convince you. 12:48:36 -!- atomx` [~user@86.35.150.23] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:48:40 With my IBCL, you can perfectly well write your code at the REPL. 12:49:00 Night-Hacks: remember, Common Lisp provides a standardized interface to the editor: (ED 'my-function) 12:49:16 Night-Hacks: but IBCL is just a proof of concept. You will have to improve on it a lot! 12:49:29 Night-Hacks: you might want to read the InterLisp papers. 12:49:37 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 12:49:44 and some people confuse newcomers 12:49:47 http://larry.masinter.net/interlisp-ieee.pdf 12:49:55 stassats`: let them invent new stuff! :-) 12:50:54 checking ... 12:51:21 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 12:51:34 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 12:52:09 so if you rather to write in file and compile with SLIME why you use emacs at all ! 12:52:19 slime runs in emacs. 12:52:28 You write your files with emacs. 12:52:44 yeah im doing it but a little problem on 12:52:51 saving my contents 12:53:09 it saves also cl-user> and ... 12:53:34 did i tell you not to save the repl? 12:53:56 -!- siloxid [~user@unaffiliated/siloxid] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:53:57 Night-Hacks: notice that even in InterLisp, when you're editing the source sexps, you do still save files, to ensure persistance. You could also use #+clisp ext:saveinitmem to save the image, but you must ensure that you keep the source sexp around (hence my IBCL). 12:54:12 siloxid [~user@unaffiliated/siloxid] has joined #lisp 12:54:13 The normal REPL don't keep the source sexp around, they just compile and run them, and throw them away. 12:54:37 you write in the files, you save the files, you read them and compile them 12:54:47 (Well, you have a saving grace in guise of + ++ and +++ 12:55:12 Or you edit the sexp in the lisp image, you compile them (no need to read them they're already sexps), and you save them to files. 12:55:40 One advantage of that, is that you can use lisp to do your editing at the sexp level. 12:55:47 After all, emacs is just a character editor... 12:55:53 paredit nonwithstanding. 12:56:37 k ... 12:56:55 ikki [~ikki@189.139.222.24] has joined #lisp 12:59:50 Night-Hacks: in practice, there's been a lot of lost time, and lost sources, in the InterLisp/structural editing camp. Nowadays, using emacs+slime and editing files before loading them in the REPL, is probably the most practical route. 13:00:31 But one could set up a usable REPL/structural editing environment easily enough. 13:00:58 Have a look at http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/small-cl-pgms/sedit/index.html 13:00:59 after three failure im back on slime ! 13:01:24 carlocci [~nes@93.37.195.150] has joined #lisp 13:02:08 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.164.205] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:03:09 sedit is in memory editor ? 13:03:33 Yes. 13:04:14 Again, it's just a Q&D proof of concept, I'm not sure you'd have much fun editing real code, but perhaps. Try it. 13:04:54 You could interface it with IBCL, and get something usable actually. 13:06:14 you know, i found that the most hard part of lisp is not itself, thats IDE. 13:06:59 Night-Hacks: indeed. That's why I don't mind letting early newbies use the REPL. A good newbie savy REPL would be helpful. 13:08:01 yeah thats right 13:08:10 -!- jingtao` [~jingtaozf@114.248.169.155] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:08:13 -!- siloxid [~user@unaffiliated/siloxid] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:08:31 siloxid [~user@unaffiliated/siloxid] has joined #lisp 13:09:47 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-170-203.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:10:54 snearch [~snearch@g225018121.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:11:54 i load codes with C-c C-l but it doesnt let to compile that file is there any other way ? 13:14:29 C-c C-k compiles and loads 13:14:48 JimmyRcom [~jimmy@adsl-75-53-45-212.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:15:18 stassats`: is undefined 13:15:33 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@vpnsh0077.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 13:15:46 can't be 13:15:59 do you use it in a lisp file? 13:16:28 no im in repl mode of slime 13:16:39 is there any support in SBCL to generate Win32 images that are not console applications? 13:17:25 atomx` [~user@86.35.150.23] has joined #lisp 13:19:24 mathrick: you need to either use a wrapper or modify the exe header 13:19:46 -!- benny` is now known as benny 13:20:26 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:24 p_l|backup: I have a wrapper right now, how would I go about modifying the header? 13:21:50 Night-Hacks: when you use slime, you almost never go to the REPL. 13:21:52 stassats`: how can i open file ? i just load it and its still undefined 13:22:02 SLIME *is* a REPL 13:22:02 You can evaluate forms, load files and compile files from the lisp source buffers. 13:22:09 and also many other things 13:22:29 pjb: I spend half my SLIME time in the REPL window 13:22:46 Me too, but it's not really necessary. 13:22:51 Night-Hacks: do you know how to use emacs? 13:23:08 so so 13:23:24 and do you know how to open a file in it? 13:23:27 Night-Hacks: type: C-x C-f /tmp/test.lisp RET (+ 1 2) C-x C-e See how you get the result in the minibuffer Type C-u C-x C-e See how you get the result in the file buffer. 13:23:58 Night-Hacks: have you read this http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/lather-rinse-repeat-a-tour-of-the-repl.html ? 13:24:15 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-98-113-194-183.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:24:31 yeah ive read, thats really short 13:25:32 -!- brandelune [~suzume@pl571.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: brandelune] 13:25:39 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@vpnsh0077.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:26:17 it is, and it answer all the questions you've asked so far 13:26:31 For example, 90% of the emacs users (who write emacs lisp code), are surprised when you mention ielm. And they won't ever use it thereafter. 13:26:48 *stassats`* uses ielm all the time 13:27:09 p_l|backup: I haven't been able to find any description what exactly determines the subsystem windows deems an executable to be; I'd be pretty happy to read a complete explanation 13:27:15 stassats`: what's ielm? 13:27:26 mathrick: a REPL for emacs lisp M-x ielm RET 13:27:27 ahh, that SLIME for elisp thing? 13:27:38 no 13:27:42 it's no slime 13:27:42 yeah, I should use it, but I never remember when I write elisp 13:27:53 it happens too rarely 13:28:15 My experience of the repl is 'Does caddr do what I think? Yup/Nope' Back to the buffer. Edits. 'Does this work? Yup/Nope' Back to the buffer. Edits. 'What about this? Damn, typo - should have done it in the buffer...' 13:28:53 rebinding C-c C-c to eval-sexp in emacs-lisp-interaction buffers is 80% there already 13:29:06 pjb: tnx, im understanding sths now. 13:29:27 splittist: but you do not need to switch to the REPL to try things out. Just type in your source buffer (car (cons 'a 'd)) C-u C-x C-e 13:29:31 LakatosIsti [557a1e03@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.122.30.3] has joined #lisp 13:29:35 Hey Guys 13:29:44 Could someone help me out with a macro? 13:29:44 splittist: yes, the "damn, should've done that in the buffer" thing is probably the biggest problem with having a REPL 13:29:59 nikodemus_ [~nikodemus@cs109108011008.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:30:01 -!- nikodemus [~androirc@87-93-162-0.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:30:13 LakatosIsti: no, we're not telepath. 13:30:17 LakatosIsti: just state your question, people who can and are willing to help will do so 13:30:40 pjb: you can also stand on your head when using slime 13:30:43 pjb: Just hold your beezwax :P I'm pasting the code as we speak 13:31:14 LakatosI pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122016 13:31:40 I am uzing simple-date to encode my dates 13:31:43 using* 13:32:14 And I want an easy way to acces the day or hour or anything within that timestamp 13:32:35 The problem is that decode-timestamp returns multiple values 13:32:49 LakatosIsti: you don't need to check the body. Use multiple-value-bind to bind all the values, and (declare (ignorable them)). 13:32:50 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81E677.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:33:20 How do I declare ignorable? 13:33:34 (declare (ignorable year month ...)) 13:34:17 Make it the first form of the multiple-value-bind body. 13:34:21 what's with flattening the body? 13:34:30 Oh, I found my problem 13:34:33 stassats`: he's looking if the variables are used there. 13:34:41 So I can more easily search through the symbols used 13:34:51 But there's no need to check that. 13:35:01 Let the compiler do it for you, just declare them ignorable. 13:35:08 Instead of nth number timestamp I have to use (nth number (decode-timestamp timestamp)) :P 13:35:18 I see 13:36:07 THanks for the help 13:36:12 what about finding a function instead of a variable? 13:37:32 what do you mean? 13:37:37 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has joined #lisp 13:37:53 pjb:final question, how to get back to repl from editing file after c-x c-f ? 13:38:06 you can't distinguish between a function call and a variable reference 13:38:11 Night-Hacks: C-c C-z 13:38:55 Night-Hacks: Or just use C-c b to return to the previously used buffer 13:39:19 Night-Hacks: Yes, they are just buffers. C-x b or C-x C-b 13:39:20 francogrex [~user@109.130.245.156] has joined #lisp 13:39:31 right 13:39:37 lisppaste: there's no such binding 13:39:38 C-x, not C-c 13:40:03 tnxxx 13:40:07 C-x b is to switch buffers in general, not to the just to the latest 13:41:15 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:41:36 -!- sellout- [~Adium@nc-71-48-23-197.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:43:45 Do I have to quote my symbols when I declare them ignorable? 13:43:51 No. 13:43:57 -!- Night-Hacks [~amir@95.38.52.69] has left #lisp 13:44:02 Declarations are not evaluated. 13:44:41 anyone knows a link for a decision tree package? there was cl-id3 but seems project is dead 13:45:32 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 13:45:39 dead as in doesn't work? 13:45:40 Sounds like a good opportunity to revive it. 13:46:14 stassats`: more like link inactive yes 13:46:42 (at least from my side of the atlantic) 13:48:04 pjb: if needs reviving, i'll add it to my todolist, just wanted something done because already bery busy with a epidemic modeling package 13:48:17 s/bery/very 13:50:05 let's hire new CL programmers! 13:50:05 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-98-113-194-183.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 13:50:08 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has joined #lisp 13:50:17 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:51:16 pjb: waiting for that promotion. Once I'm a boss, i'll get rid of the useless ones and replace all the team by cl programmers 13:51:26 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 13:51:53 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@99-27-207-90.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:52:57 Jasko [~tjasko@206.228.97.2] has joined #lisp 13:54:55 -!- snearch [~snearch@g225018121.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 13:56:28 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 14:01:32 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-170-121.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:04:35 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-170-203.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:04:59 Davsebamse [~davse@gate.ipvision.dk] has joined #lisp 14:06:20 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:10:09 -!- am0c [~am0c@119.192.218.97] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:11:08 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 14:12:35 Yuuhi [benni@p5483B35E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined 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[~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:07:11 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.141.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:07:18 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.141.156] has joined #lisp 16:07:18 Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.199.197] has joined #lisp 16:12:59 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-32-12-181.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: When there's nothing left to burn you have to set yourself on fire.] 16:17:16 Hi folks: more newbie questions. I got quicklisp installed and a couple of packages but that leaves me more confused than ever. How do I find out the packages I have installed and which package is the current and how do I inspect a package to figure out what's available? 16:18:18 <_3b> well, first step is to stop using the term 'package' for groups of files, since it means something else in CL and will just confuse you later :) 16:18:31 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75e754.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:34 Okay. 16:18:57 <_3b> 'system' is the usual term, since 'package' and 'module' were already taken 16:19:13 hi 16:20:09 add^_^ [~add^_^@h215n1c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 16:20:15 steevy [~steevy@95-89-223-125-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 16:20:17 oh kay? 16:20:35 Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:21:08 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@h215n1c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:21:08 -!- add^_^ is now known as add^_ 16:21:31 *_3b* doesn't see anything in the quicklisp docs for figureing out what you have installed with it 16:23:36 How does _3b read quicklisp docs? 16:23:55 <_3b> http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/ is what i meant 16:24:18 Ah, wasn't very helpful except to get the basics installed. 16:25:15 Even looking at the output of ql:system-apropos wasn't really very helpful. 16:26:09 Throwing back to legends it was nothing like apt-get show...'grin' 16:27:28 <_3b> yeah, it is still under development, it will get nicer :) 16:29:59 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:31:18 tcr [~tcr@62-50-222-137.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:26 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sbahra] 16:35:50 bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.160.128] has joined #lisp 16:39:01 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 16:44:10 -!- Triplefault [~Mouse@adsl-72-145-220-220.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:46:00 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:48:13 -!- gz` [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 16:48:20 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.199.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:48:34 Meanwhile, I'm completely baffled! 16:51:01 baffled: there's a hyper pre-alpha project documentation list thing on the quicklisp site 16:51:21 baffled: come join us in #quicklisp (I don't know if Xach wants that to be public yet) 16:51:58 pnq [~nick@AC821CB1.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 16:53:11 Thanks antifuchs maybe I'll do that. 16:54:02 pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 16:54:03 I suspect a lot of my ignorance is being totally new to this stuff. 16:54:25 also if you poke around the quicklisp source or just the symbol list you can find quite a bit 16:54:25 bubo [~bubo@178-191-212-82.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 16:54:41 slyrus [~chatzilla@99-27-207-90.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:42 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:55 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:56:36 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75e754.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:56:46 -!- udzinari [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: zzzzzzZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzz] 16:57:01 ikki [~ikki@189.139.222.24] has joined #lisp 16:57:27 Yeah, well I don't really know how to do that either. 16:58:29 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.38.102.252] has joined #lisp 17:00:36 -!- tcr [~tcr@62-50-222-137.client.stsn.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:02:15 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.139.222.24] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:02:39 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:02:45 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:03:57 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:04 -!- pnkfelix1 [~Adium@sjfw1.adobe.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:06:46 -!- gaidal_ [~gaidal@113.109.117.37] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:07:36 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:07:58 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:16 tcr [~tcr@62-50-222-137.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:56 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:11:15 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 17:12:39 -!- ubii [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:17:06 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 17:19:49 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 17:19:49 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 17:19:49 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 17:24:44 ikki [~ikki@189.139.222.24] has joined #lisp 17:25:55 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 17:25:55 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 17:25:55 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 17:31:21 -!- nikodemus changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: slime-indentation changes in CVS, usocket 0.5.2, SBCL 1.0.48, common-lisp.net is up again, ABCL 0.25 17:43:48 -!- Phillip [~Phillip@c-174-53-229-4.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:45:53 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:46:32 -!- xpf [~xpf@78.31.74.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:50:55 francogrex [~user@109.130.245.156] has joined #lisp 17:51:46 macrocat [~marmalade@142.177.208.20] has joined #lisp 17:51:54 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:53:15 WarWeasle [~brad@c-98-220-114-168.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:07 Hello, is anyone familiar with cl-unification or paiProlog and their capabilities? 17:56:17 xpf [~xpf@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 17:57:23 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host120-178-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:58:33 rdd [~user@c83-250-52-16.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:03:22 jdz [~jdz@host239-107-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:03:43 Bronsa [~brace@host120-178-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:05:34 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:05:52 dralston [~dralston@S0106687f74a12729.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:15 milanj [~milanj_@93-86-241-217.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 18:07:23 spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-132-27.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:09:27 -!- tcr [~tcr@62-50-222-137.client.stsn.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:10:25 -!- dralston [~dralston@S0106687f74a12729.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:11:44 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.38.102.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:11:58 -!- bubo [~bubo@178-191-212-82.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:13:06 -!- foogrons` [~user@xdsl-78-35-72-93.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:13:49 bubo [~bubo@178-191-220-40.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 18:14:47 -!- spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-132-27.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 18:16:25 stis [~stis@host-78-79-238-0.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 18:17:27 Kneferilis [5d6d8465@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.109.132.101] has joined #lisp 18:17:29 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has joined #lisp 18:17:46 Does armed bear lisp for Java include the lisp libraries? 18:17:46 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:17:49 WarWeasle, a little 18:22:32 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.245.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:25:59 -!- zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:26:48 leo2007 [~leo@222.79.158.193] has joined #lisp 18:27:23 zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:45 jewel: sorry, afk for a moment. Are you still there? 18:29:22 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.79.158.193] has quit [Client Quit] 18:30:10 -!- akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-093-204.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:30:54 Soulman1 [~knute@250.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:31:02 Kneferilis: yes. 18:31:36 pjb: nice, how do you know that? 18:32:13 Because I used quicklisp with abcl to get the libraries. 18:32:39 pjb: you intergrated the too? 18:32:47 It just works! 18:33:09 pjb: why not use only abcl, why did you combine it with quicklisp? 18:33:22 There is an ANSI Common Lisp standard. This is a contract between implementations and libraries (and programs). 18:33:49 pjb: I see. 18:33:53 The contract says: if the implementation is conforming, then libraries that are conforming will run, and if the libraries are conforming, then the implementation that is conforming will run it. 18:34:02 -!- steevy [~steevy@95-89-223-125-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: quit?] 18:34:26 pjb: I see, do you know if abcl for .NET has the lisp libraries? 18:34:43 Therefore since ABCL is a Common Lisp implementation, I expect it to fulfill its part of the contract and run any library, such as quicklisp that fulfill its own part of the contract. 18:34:50 I don't know that abcl runs on .NET. 18:34:54 -_\\\ 18:35:31 In any case, wherever a Common Lisp implementation runs, it fulfills the contract, therefore it will run all the conforming libraries! 18:35:40 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:36:03 Kneferilis: that's the beauty of having a language defined by a standard: you know that whatever library will run on whatever implementation on whatever target platform. 18:36:16 You don't have to ask the question. 18:36:50 Now, you may ask the question whether a CL implementation if conforming, or whether a library is conforming. 18:37:30 But almost all CL implementations are highly conforming, (those are not are mostly not used). 18:38:08 pjb: I see. Thanks. So, I am correct then? Common Lisp comes with a large set of libraries? 18:38:19 Some libraries are dependent on specific implementations. But most of the libraries that use implementation specific things run on several implementations. 18:38:37 Kneferilis: yes. Check http://cliki.net and http://common-lisp.net 18:38:59 Kneferilis: "comes with" is subject to interpretation. "there exists a large set of libraries for common lisp" is definitely true 18:39:01 pjb: thanks 18:39:34 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:39:56 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:41:03 Kneferilis: http://www.cliki.net/Current%20recommended%20libraries 18:41:45 It's not a complete list but you can be sure that libraries mentioned on this page are stable. 18:42:45 see http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/ 18:44:09 ABCL runs on .Net, but it's no joy. 18:44:22 because it runs on an emulator. 18:44:55 basho__ [~basho__@dslb-178-003-009-029.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:28 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:48:01 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-32-12-181.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:34 -!- WarWeasle [~brad@c-98-220-114-168.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 18:50:36 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host120-178-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:51:02 Bronsa [~brace@host120-178-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:51:37 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-32-12-181.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:52:27 -!- Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:52:58 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.149] has joined #lisp 18:53:01 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-98-113-194-183.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 18:53:47 WarWeasle [~brad@c-98-220-114-168.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:27 Does anyone know anything about cl-unification? I'd like to know if I can create rules like in prolog. 18:55:12 did you try http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-unification/ already 18:55:55 Yup. I see that it does pattern mactching, but I don't see how to go about creating substitutions, even though the word substitution pops up. 18:55:56 Bike [~Bike@71-38-156-48.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:03 -!- Bike [~Bike@71-38-156-48.ptld.qwest.net] has left #lisp 18:57:00 it's like mapping (1 2 3) to (a b c) and getting 3 for c when asked for the value of c 18:57:57 i think you substitute via the command unify and it does the rest.... 18:58:06 homie: Right, But I need to do something like in paiProlog: (<- (Task ?X) (Job ?X)) where (job ?X) can be substituted by (Task ?X) 18:59:48 And the database I've created it too large for paiprolog. 18:59:59 s/it/is 19:00:58 I'm sure it can do it, the question is how. 19:02:30 -!- Kneferilis [5d6d8465@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.109.132.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:04:02 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-32-12-181.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:06 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-156-48.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:39 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-23-218.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:43 Maybe there is an addon for cl-unification? 19:06:50 -!- WarWeasle [~brad@c-98-220-114-168.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:06:56 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@206.228.97.2] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:07:00 nikodemus: is the &key indentation where the next line starts under the e-in-&key part of your indentation stuff? 19:08:02 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93-86-241-217.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:08:07 didier's 19:08:07 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-38-156-48.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:08:25 (setq lisp-lambda-list-keyword-parameter-alignment t) 19:08:25 (setq lisp-lambda-list-keyword-alignment t) 19:08:42 to align stuff more naturally 19:08:46 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:06 Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.199.197] has joined #lisp 19:09:53 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-156-48.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:39 -!- stis [~stis@host-78-79-238-0.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:10:43 ah, ok, thanks 19:10:47 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:12:27 tcr [~tcr@62-50-222-137.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:57 milanj [~milanj_@109-93-128-62.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 19:13:47 *stassats`* goes to figure how to turn off "Subclause aware LOOP indentation." 19:14:50 got it, setting lisp-loop-indent-subclauses to nil 19:15:02 I just wondered what it was :-) 19:15:37 -!- Liera [~Liera@113.172.38.123] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:15:57 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.199.197] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:16:41 Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.199.197] has joined #lisp 19:18:23 hrrm, new-line-and-indent now behaves strangely in loop 19:18:43 *stassats`* is on the verge of turning off slime-indentation 19:19:00 let me see 19:19:21 can you paste a sample loop? 19:19:51 nikodemus: it indents the new-line not how it would indent it if there was something typed on that line 19:20:31 ubii [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:33 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-98-113-194-183.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:37 i wonder if that's intelligible, i'll better paste 19:20:44 i think i understand 19:21:08 you have subclause indentation off, right? 19:21:21 wol [~wol@67.174.222.215] has joined #lisp 19:21:23 yes 19:21:41 stassats pasted "indentation" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122018 19:21:51 just to be sure there's no misunderstanding 19:22:19 bloop [43aa6450@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.170.100.80] has joined #lisp 19:22:32 i think i know what the issue is, just a sec 19:24:04 *stassats`* doesn't feel right not hunting the bugs himself, but he wants to go to bed before midnight, not at 6am 19:24:38 has anyone here heard of a technique wereby you can arbitrarily reflect on closures as if you were a macro? (but well after the closure has been made) Or anything sort of like this? 19:25:05 drdo` [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 19:25:33 *gigamonkey* often reflects on closures but always comes to the same conclusion ... they're awesome. 19:25:56 i usually get left and right messed up 19:26:24 bloop: I think maybe no one understands your question. 19:26:27 but i'm not a macro, what do i know 19:26:35 -!- pnq [~nick@AC821CB1.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:26:37 opening up closures and closing on ? 19:27:02 opening them up as if they were never evaluated, basically, and seeing them in s-expr form as if you were a macro 19:27:19 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:27:29 and maybe modifying them, of course 19:27:32 well, don't evaluate them then 19:27:34 ok, i have a fix 19:27:41 -!- bubo [~bubo@178-191-220-40.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has left #lisp 19:27:45 just adding a test-case and committing 19:27:58 yeah i mean that's sort of what it seems like is the most straight forward way to do it... 19:28:13 bloop: I don't know of any Lisps that allow you to do such a thing. Though I can also easily believe that such a Lisp has existed. 19:28:29 and remember, closures are not only the code, but the closed over variables as well 19:28:36 gigamonkey: haha that was exactly my thought before coming here :p 19:28:50 well, use a temp stack for the various expansions of the macros and one last for the end result ? 19:29:17 Vutral [FzvCISOho9@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:22 and take the right route based on some necessity ? 19:29:30 but aren't the closed over variables basically just symbols? 19:29:45 I think you can do that in NewLisp? 19:30:25 hmmm 19:31:39 bloop: symbols plus an environment. 19:31:44 s/necessity/constraint/... 19:31:46 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-38-156-48.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:31:49 Or something plus an environment. 19:31:54 nikodemus: thanks, i'll check it out tomorrow 19:32:25 -!- tcr [~tcr@62-50-222-137.client.stsn.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:32:48 bloop: perhaps this would be interesting http://matt.might.net/articles/closure-conversion/ 19:34:19 -!- Vutral [FzvCISOho9@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:35:21 -!- Areil [~user@113.172.38.123] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:35:35 -!- bloop [43aa6450@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.170.100.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:35:44 -!- xpf [~xpf@78.31.74.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:36:11 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:39:02 gigamonkey: hi 19:39:50 xpf [~xpf@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 19:40:51 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.160.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 19:44:09 Hello. 19:44:16 -!- BrianRice [~water@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:45:22 Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:46:32 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 19:47:22 paul0 [~user@189.114.207.115.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 19:49:13 brodo_ [~brodo@p5B022797.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:12 ehu: can you check if common-lisp.net's rsync is running? I'm getting connection refusals when trying to run the slime / mcclim cvs->git mirror 19:51:05 Those names are in the proper order. 19:51:07 -!- brodo [~brodo@p5B0244E7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:51:07 -!- brodo_ is now known as brodo 19:51:20 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.199.197] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:51:28 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-204-121.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:52:35 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-204-121.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:04 Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.199.197] has joined #lisp 19:54:58 ehu: ah, forget it; I've switched to rsync over pubkey-authed ssh (: 19:56:33 udzinari [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 19:59:52 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:00:55 -!- udzinari [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:01:32 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.139.222.24] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:01:47 -!- wol [~wol@67.174.222.215] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:01:47 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-248.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:02:33 udzinari [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 20:02:47 pyrony [~epic@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:23 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:05:32 wol [~wol@67.174.222.215] has joined #lisp 20:07:37 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has joined #lisp 20:08:40 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-156-48.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:08 -!- Luke [~Luke@adsl-99-23-153-146.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:12:50 dmiles [~dmiles@c-24-21-133-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:45 sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has joined #lisp 20:15:41 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-21-133-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:15:41 setmeaway2 [setmeaway3@183.106.96.30] has joined #lisp 20:15:41 -!- setmeaway [stemearay@183.106.96.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:15:41 -!- Sgeo [~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:16:08 Sgeo [~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:58 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host120-178-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:19:10 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:21:09 Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:58 -!- basho__ [~basho__@dslb-178-003-009-029.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:26:24 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 20:27:19 s0ber_ [~s0ber@111-240-167-186.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:23 -!- zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:29:11 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-170-96.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:29:24 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 20:29:42 zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:29 -!- cbp [~cesarbp@189.139.219.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:33:26 pnq [~nick@AC8399DA.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 20:37:04 -!- Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:37:17 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:38:48 nikodemus [~androirc@87-93-162-0.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 20:39:56 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Client Quit] 20:41:57 Evildaemon [~chatzilla@50-35-176-190.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:23 If I have two arrays, how do I call items from them? 20:43:03 wayne [~wayne@unaffiliated/wayne] has joined #lisp 20:43:10 clhs aref 20:43:12 hi. 20:43:21 clhs funcall 20:44:00 i use vim. please don't hate me. what're the best extensions to develop scheme? 20:44:12 or just lisp in general 20:44:24 Well, for scheme you'd have to ask on #scheme. 20:44:29 use racket for scheme...if beginner maybe.... 20:44:32 For lisp, there's a slimv module. 20:44:46 it's gui 20:44:58 But really, the best extension to use is : ESC :! emacs file.lisp RET 20:45:10 ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 20:45:32 PJB? was that dircted towards me? 20:46:13 Evildaemon: yes. 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21:49:49 <_6502_> need to be able to compile eval, i mean 21:51:39 -!- Landr [~user@dD5770CB8.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:53:42 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 21:53:48 HET2 [~diman@nat79.mia.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:53:54 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.38.102.252] has joined #lisp 21:53:59 -!- Guest39223 [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-165-128.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:55:01 <_6502_> I am stuck with the problem of macros ... I am expanding macros at compile time, but the compiler is using eval to evaluate the macro form... and therefore there's no hope to bootstrap the compiler unless I can compile eval and that's something that I'd like to avoid 21:55:12 Vutral [deMc4ASzVf@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 21:55:53 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.245.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:56:18 <_3b> add a trivial interpreter? 21:57:04 <_6502_> hmmm... sort of a limited one, just to be used for macros? 21:57:06 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-165-128.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:57:55 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-165-128.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:58:09 *_3b* was thinking more 'inefficient' than 'limited' 21:59:00 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:59:13 <_3b> once it knows the special forms and how to expand macros and call functions, there isn't much left aside from optimization 21:59:14 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-165-128.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:59:56 <_6502_> Indeed that macro interpreting code is going to be used for general macros... even macro-generating macros so there's no way I can think to to "limit" its capabilities 22:00:00 -!- bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has left #lisp 22:00:26 <_6502_> so every lisp system is doomed to have a full eval ? 22:00:51 <_3b> well, it pretty much has to be able to evaluate things, that's sort of the point :p 22:00:53 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-165-128.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:01:44 <_3b> whether that compiles or interprets or some combination of the 2 is up to the implementation 22:02:07 <_6502_> my toy is a compile-only lisp... i don't understand why code like "(defun twice (x) (* 2 x)) (print (twice 21))" should contain eval... 22:02:09 <_3b> and bootstrapping is a separate issue, you can bootstrap the compiler from some other language, or hand compile the first version or whatever 22:02:22 <_6502_> the problem is that the compiler is however forced to contain eval because of macros 22:02:58 <_3b> macros are just functions, you can compile them like any other 22:03:01 <_6502_> so a bootstrapped compiler must be able to compile calls to eval ... 22:03:08 _6502_: you may say that it's doomed to have a full eval, but having eval is the only purpose of lisp. 22:03:22 If you remove eval, you don't have lisp anymore. 22:04:04 eval is the first lisp function written in lisp, and the fist lisp function ever compiled (by hand, ie. written in assembler). 22:04:24 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-165-128.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:04:25 <_6502_> eval is not that common in programs... I've even read somewhere that if you see a lisp program using "eval" then the programmer probably didn't do a good job 22:04:30 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:04:58 -!- Vutral [deMc4ASzVf@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:05:06 <_3b> possibly your problem is assuming the language must contain every step of the bootstrapping process? 22:05:18 _6502_: you should not confuse advices to newbies, with fundamental characteristics of lisp. 22:05:23 Or features of implementations. 22:05:39 (defun eval (x) (funcall (compile nil (list 'lambda () x)))) 22:05:40 <_3b> you can cross compile from some other language, or start with some other implementation of your language (for example a trivial evaluator) 22:06:09 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-93-128-62.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:06:26 eval is a trivial function. What's your problem with it? 22:06:29 <_3b> then you compile your 'compile-only' implementation with the 'interpret-only' version, and from that point you can compile the 'compile-only' version using a previoud version of it 22:07:22 (lisp is trivial. That's what people usually don't understand. Use parentheses to write lists, implement eval which is trivial (less than one page of code if you don't have anything, one line if you have a compiler). 22:07:29 ) 22:07:49 <_3b> you can also remove things like that from 'final' compiled apps with a tree shaker of some sort if needed 22:07:52 <_6502_> may be you guys are right... I'll try to see how complex is to compile eval 22:09:33 _6502_: did your read AIM-8 ? 22:09:38 <_6502_> a treeshaker is not needed I think... if eval is not used in programs then the code is not embedded, the problem is however that it must be used somehow in the compiler, because I must have an interpreter (because of macros that are evaluated compile-time) 22:09:49 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:10:03 <_3b> or you need to compile the macros before they are used 22:10:25 <_3b> if you have a purely cross-compiling lisp, that might get more complicated though :) 22:10:26 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 22:10:32 <_6502_> the compiler is generating C code... getting from C to machine executable code is done later 22:10:40 http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/small-cl-pgms/aim-8/index.html 22:10:45 irrelevant. 22:10:53 <_3b> right, in that case i'd just make a simple interpreter for code that needs to run on the host 22:12:00 <_3b> (or run the host on a CL so you can compile it as needed during compilation without writing an extra compiler for the host side) 22:12:34 _6502_: in modern lisps, EVAL is slightly more complex than what we have in AIM-8 because we want to deal with lexical scope, but that remains manageable. 22:13:03 <_3b> alternately, you can do like ECL does and compile things into shared libs and load them 22:13:26 <_6502_> i was thinking right now that lexical scope is annoying to implement... i'd start with dynamic scoping only for macros 22:14:11 A lot of macros use mapcar... 22:14:56 <_6502_> this is just a toy :-) 22:15:32 The world needs another half-arsed Lisp. :-) 22:16:01 -!- pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:16:02 <_6502_> i never bootstrapped a compiler... a few days ago it came to my mind that it wouldn't be that hard using C as output 22:16:20 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-141-156.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:16:37 <_6502_> fds: it's just for understand... i don't think i'll ever release or use it in production 22:16:38 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-141-156.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:51 <_6502_> for learning 22:17:12 _6502_: I was only joking. I've played around with half-arsed Lisps myself, it's good fun. 22:17:32 ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:17:43 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A6908.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:17:44 <_6502_> i bet all lispers did :-D 22:17:46 But, I do think it's a waste of time, I'm just chastising myself more than you, really. 22:18:38 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:19:20 <_6502_> and may be it's the main reason lisp is not popular in real applications... all lisp lovers are writing half-baked lisp compilers instead of applications :-D 22:19:29 Well, maybe I'm being a bit harsh there; it isn't a total waste of time, but I feel like I should spend more of my time contributing to real projects. 22:19:39 Good morning everyone! 22:19:41 <_6502_> exactly 22:21:49 -!- Deathaholic [~Mococa@177.42.199.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:24:21 -!- udzinari [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: zzzzzzZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzz] 22:24:36 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:25:52 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-34-159.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 22:26:59 Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.17.80] has joined #lisp 22:28:44 -!- Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.17.80] has quit [Client Quit] 22:30:06 -!- HET2 [~diman@nat79.mia.three.co.uk] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:32:53 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@17.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:33:48 <_6502_> hehehe... in the compiler I was using the function "2-" (btw why CL defined first, second up to tenth but only "1-" and "1+" ?) 22:34:13 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 22:34:39 Because LISP means "LISt Processing". 22:34:41 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:35:13 crod [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:36:19 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-165-128.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:36:23 burton` [~burton@S0106002401f331bd.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:26 1+ 1- correspond to machine instructions incf and decf. There is no point in having more. 22:37:48 Younder: So you are arguing that TENTH corresponds to a machine instruction? 22:38:08 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:41:27 is there a way to get quicklisp to rebuild a package that i've made modifications too? 22:42:50 jestocost [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:43:08 burton`: You should be able to rebuild it with ASDF. 22:43:34 i'm a bit new with this...how would i go about doing that? 22:43:57 (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :name-of-system) 22:44:25 we have asdf:load-system these days, no? 22:44:34 Oh, sorry. 22:44:49 basically i'm trying to use elephant 22:44:57 and i installed it with quicklisp 22:44:59 -!- crod [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:45:08 and it had a problem compiling so i had to manually apply a bit of patch 22:45:23 and then i did a asdf rebuild and it seemed to work ok 22:45:35 it should recompile as necessary if you reload. 22:45:37 but it didn't seem to build all the components 22:46:00 it does do something, but it doesn't actually build the ele-bdb component that i'm wanting to use 22:46:20 and if i (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :ele-bdb) it says that it can't find it 22:46:33 but there is an ele-bdb.asd file in the elephant source directory 22:46:36 Guest32775 [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-165-128.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:46:44 elephant bdb doesn't build with sbcl and linux on my system. 22:46:59 oh, well that's good to know :) 22:47:06 maybe that's why it's not being built... 22:47:10 that's why it isn't available in quicklisp 22:47:39 so the best route is to use postmodern? 22:47:48 for the backend i mean 22:48:02 or is there something easier that doesn't require setting up a db like that? 22:48:34 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:48:42 I use postmodern and I'm pretty happy with it. 22:48:45 I like saying nice things about postmodern, and use it in a professional setting. 22:48:52 It's at a different level of abstraction than elephant. 22:49:04 Elephant is, from what I can tell, incomplete and unmaintained. 22:49:14 i thought it was a backend for elephant 22:49:30 burton`: postmodern is a library for accessing postgresql databases from CL 22:49:33 i just saw an example page that was using it for persistance 22:49:37 elephant might use it, dunno. 22:49:46 it does have it as a backend 22:50:38 What do you want to use Elephant for? 22:50:49 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp 22:50:51 xan_ [~xan@190.Red-193-152-189.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:57 the page i'm looking at is using at as a persistent object store for a simple webapp 22:51:13 bknr-datastore seems pretty interesting too. 22:51:27 it provides a defpclass for creating persistent classes 22:51:42 bknr-datastore has that, too :) 22:52:19 I don't know what the state of rucksack is these days, but it has a persistent class metaclass, too. 22:52:20 looked like a simple interface when used with bdb but since it doesn't seem to work i have to install and setup postgres as well...oh well, might be a good idea if my webapp ever goes "web-scale" :) 22:52:43 there's cl-mongo for when you need 'webscale' ;D 22:52:50 heh 22:53:20 Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:08 -!- burton` is now known as kruhft 22:56:25 rucksack might be interesting 22:58:04 -!- Guest32775 [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-165-128.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:02:45 -!- Luke [~Luke@adsl-99-23-153-146.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:05:38 <_6502_> Is it possible to add customization to the reader so that every symbol is processed (short of rewriting a full reader, of course)? 23:06:10 <_6502_> something that for example would translate "x_i" into "(aref x i)" 23:06:24 a reader macro could i would think 23:06:51 <_6502_> if I declare "_" special however previous symbol has already been processed... 23:07:00 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-165-128.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:07:05 there's some examples in "ANSI Common lisp" and "Let Over Lambda" 23:07:30 yes, it would not process previous symbols read by the reader 23:09:38 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-165-128.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:11:23 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.221.19] has joined #lisp 23:11:51 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-222-55.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:14:17 _6502_: you can do that with (lot of) readmacros but rewriting the reader seems like better idea :) 23:14:55 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-141-156.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 23:14:55 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 23:16:11 <_6502_> redefining read so that after calling the old version I post-process the result is bad? 23:19:27 pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 23:21:27 <_6502_> hmmm 23:21:48 <_6502_> no way to handle "X_(1+ i)" 23:21:57 <_6502_> probably it's an horrible idea 23:22:43 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-98-234-186-226.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:23:09 <_6502_> i'll stick with the much easier and still reasnably compact "[x i]" 23:23:12 -!- rdd [~user@c83-250-52-16.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:24:34 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-165-128.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:25:45 _6502_: you could add something like @my-syntax (...stuff with your syntax...) 23:31:30 helloooooooooo 23:32:44 Hello homie. 23:33:23 hullooooo :)= 23:37:18 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:37:46 -!- wetnosed [~kai@e179016206.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:38:39 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:39:21 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@206.228.97.2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:39:23 <_6502_> Xach: a simple macro did the trick... (indexed (dotimes (i (length x)) (print x_i))) 23:39:41 Jasko [~tjasko@206.228.97.2] has joined #lisp 23:40:23 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 23:40:23 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:40:45 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 23:40:45 <_3b> _6502_: watch out for interactions with other code walkers (or for other namespaces if you didn't make a code walker) 23:41:01 _6502_: how? 23:42:56 <_6502_> I'm assuming that "_" is not used anywhere so I'm just traversing all lists 23:42:56 -!- xan_ [~xan@190.Red-193-152-189.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:43:43 xan_ [~xan@190.Red-193-152-189.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:45:04 <_6502_> http://pastebin.com/ue4Swuwe 23:45:31 dsmcfarl` [~user@246.41.143.24.cm.sunflower.com] has joined #lisp 23:46:33 <_6502_> I was just curious how hard it was... (after reading about arc syntax (X index) = (aref X index) ... but however arc is a lisp-1) 23:46:53 <_6502_> then I thought about latex syntax (even more compact) 23:46:59 -!- dsmcfarl [~user@246.41.143.24.cm.sunflower.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:47:25 *_3b* votes to just do it at the editor level instead :p 23:47:47 <_6502_> it's not the writing the problem... it's the reading 23:47:59 <_3b> editors don't have to display things as stored on the filesystem 23:48:06 <_6502_> sometimes CL syntax is horrible 23:48:33 <_6502_> (setf (gethash key m) value) 23:48:45 <_6502_> others do m[key] = value 23:49:43 <_6502_> 3b: hehehe... you mean an emacs plugin like org-mode that displays indexing in a nicer way by decoding (aref x i) ??? :-) 23:49:58 *_3b* points at stuff like glasses-mode or the thing for making LAMBDA look like the lambda character 23:50:27 <_6502_> lambda is ok :-) 23:50:41 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-23-218.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:51:07 <_6502_> string concatenation, hash table access, array access are the problems :-D 23:51:07 -!- xan_ [~xan@190.Red-193-152-189.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:51:11 _6502_: you can trivially write (<- [m key] value) if you prefer. 23:51:20 xan_ [~xan@190.Red-193-152-189.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:29 (cat "abc" "def" "ghi") ? 23:51:39 <_3b> right, i'm just pointing to those as examples of 'show something more readable instead of what's in the file' modes 23:51:39 What's your problem? You can't program anymore? 23:52:10 <_3b> so you could similarly transform GETHASH forms if you wanted (and knew how to program emacs well enough) 23:52:31 <_6502_> pjb: no I'm just thinking what would be the ideal syntax 23:52:55 Why do programming languages start their indexes at zero? 23:52:56 <_6502_> pjb: and btw I found myself using (format nil) for concatenating strings (blush) 23:52:59 _6502_: there is none. That's why we use parentheses for everything. So that we don't lose out time on unreachable quests. 23:53:12 _6502_: playing with "doing it right" is dangerous 23:53:13 (concatenate 'string ...) 23:53:29 .-1 s/out/our/ 23:53:36 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-34-159.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: quit] 23:54:57 -!- xan_ [~xan@190.Red-193-152-189.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:56:21 xan_ [~xan@190.Red-193-152-189.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:56:39 <_6502_> pjb: CL syntax is far from minimal or uniform... yet some very common operations have an awkward syntax 23:57:43 <_6502_> pjb: and I used (format nil ...) is nice because manages conversion for symbols, numbers ... 23:57:56 <_6502_> used=think 23:58:10 <_6502_> probably inefficient tho 23:58:35 <_6502_> 02:02am... sleeptime for me 23:58:44 <_6502_> cya and thanks 23:59:52 -!- _6502_ [5e24fd14@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.253.20] has quit [Quit: Page closed]