00:02:30 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:04:15 -!- dboswell [~user@ip65-46-56-98.z56-46-65.customer.algx.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:05:11 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:05:48 stassats: how about read VS writes? 00:06:46 i'd say that i'd rather see faster reads 00:07:29 -!- gozoner [~ebg@ip68-6-68-92.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 00:08:27 -!- Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@1807ds2-noe.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:08:30 pkhuong: I'd say it's hard to say in the abtract. 00:10:11 -!- pyrony [~epic@office1.klout.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:10:46 gigamonkey: yet that's a pretty fundamental aspect when designing a data structure. 00:10:59 If you value writes a lot more than reads, you can go with alists. 00:11:38 turns out sbcl's hash tables are very good at writing consecutive fixnums, because the hash function is so bad. 00:11:53 pkhuong: the case I can see for wanting faster writes (but not terrible reads like an alist) is where you populate a big hashtable with lots of entries (say a dictionary) and then you want to look up a small subset of those entries in actual practice. 00:13:00 HET2 [~diman@nat79.mia.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 00:14:20 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:15:15 it would be nice of sbcl optimized (incf (gethash 'key x)) to just one hashing 00:16:39 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-147-184.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:17:26 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:19:37 burybu [~buribu@201-68-135-216.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 00:22:01 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.12.183] has joined #lisp 00:23:02 -!- burybu [~buribu@201-68-135-216.dsl.telesp.net.br] has left #lisp 00:26:14 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:26:18 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:26:44 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:27:34 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:30:35 rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 00:31:30 -!- pkhuong [~pkhuong@gravelga.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:32:44 sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has joined #lisp 00:33:08 pkhuong [~pkhuong@gravelga.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #lisp 00:35:44 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 00:37:20 -!- HET2 [~diman@nat79.mia.three.co.uk] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:39:59 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:41:07 -!- locci [~nes@93.37.192.51] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 00:41:56 -!- Onyxyte [~Onyxyte@r75-110-112-109.rmntcmtc02.rcmtnc.ab.dh.suddenlink.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:48:25 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@nat/redhat/x-fbgziomgsjostmsz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:51:22 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:53:54 MoALTz__ [~no@92.18.25.90] has joined #lisp 00:57:15 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@92.8.230.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:59:24 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.147.88] has joined #lisp 01:00:01 :( sbcl upgrade killed my coverage script from only instrumenting the interested package. 01:01:20 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:03:54 -!- xan_ [~xan@70-36-197-5.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:05:16 -!- macrocat [~marmalade@142.177.44.180] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:05:54 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-18-206.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:05:58 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2838F.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:06:09 pnq [~nick@ACA2838F.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 01:15:06 pkhuong pasted "Simpler (really!) hash tables" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/121973 01:15:22 Onyxyte [~Onyxyte@r75-110-112-109.rmntcmtc02.rcmtnc.ab.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:41 pkhuong annotated #121973 "And scary load factors" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/121973#1 01:17:39 mm.. wait, bitten by the birthday paradox more than I expected. 01:21:11 -!- ssacc [~sa@188-195-92-99-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:24:10 pkhuong annotated #121973 "Same results, with a better generator" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/121973#2 01:27:44 <_3b> why it it slower to create, different initialization? 01:29:07 completely different data structures. 01:30:26 the current tables uses linked lists (represented in vectors) to represent its buckets. 01:31:12 mine just use linear open addressing (with the robin hood trick I wrote about, which explains why it can handle these high load factors without exploding) 01:32:53 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 01:34:37 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:36:20 _3b: actually, most of the creation time is spent explicitly FILLing a vector with 0s: OS X really slows things down otherwise. 01:36:57 for our current hash table, I think it has to fill with some other special value. 01:39:24 gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 01:40:00 pkhuong: do you have a comparison with the speed of the current hash-table? Or am I looking over that? 01:40:48 <_3b> pkhuong: does FILL vs :initial-element matter there? 01:41:02 The form with make-hash-table and gethash uses the current hash tables. 01:42:15 _3b: depends. For our current hash tables, there's a pattern to the initialisation. For the new ones, I would use :initial-element 0, except that darwin isn't very good at providing zero-filled pages, and it seems to be faster to explicitly zero them out ahead of time. 01:43:26 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-130-167.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 01:44:59 <_3b> not sure what you mean, seems odd that current tables are fast with :initial-element some-random-value, but :initial-element 0 isn't... unless i'm missing that it isn't initializing as much or something 01:46:05 make-array knows that the values in a zero-filled page (as all fresh pages are) is 0, so doesn't initialise anythin. 01:46:58 On anything but darwin, it's a win. I'm not sure what makes it so much more expensive here; I think it might just be that the userland <-> kernel transition is complex and slow. 01:47:29 redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:47:42 <_3b> ah, so those :initial-element 0 arrays are costing (setf gethash) 'system' time on the current implementation? 01:48:05 <_3b> yeah, looks comparable 01:48:30 no, the current implementation has to initialise its arrays already. 01:49:11 <_3b> index-vector is :initial-element 0 01:49:29 <_3b> (or is that one small?) 01:49:36 IIRC, that's pretty small compared to the linked list vectors. 01:49:52 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:50:10 <_3b> out of curiosity, does tossing a FILL in there speed up the (setf gethash) timing at all? 01:50:54 symbole [~user@ool-ad02b0d9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:58 -!- symbole [~user@ool-ad02b0d9.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 01:51:14 symbole [~user@ool-ad02b0d9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:53:15 <_3b> does the existing implementation put collisions close together? 01:53:43 xan_ [~xan@205.158.58.41.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 01:53:44 A bit. Creation goes from .58 to .93 seconds, and initialisation from 2.6 to 2.3 seconds. 01:56:39 the current implementation allocates linked lists nodes linearly in its vectors. 01:56:51 pyrony [~epic@184.232.207.199] has joined #lisp 01:57:28 <_3b> guess that explains the increase in system time for (setf gethash) with fewer collisions 01:58:00 even with collisions, they would just overwrite the entry, since it's the same key. 01:58:01 <_3b> so sounds like without the workaround for OSX stuff, creating new hash tables would be faster? 01:58:33 yeah. 01:58:40 there's 0 initialisation to perform. 02:00:36 on my linux box, creation goes from .3 seconds to 0, and writing from 1.21 to 1.22 seconds. 02:00:47 <_3b> cool 02:01:40 pyrony_ [~epic@99-204-55-253.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 02:01:40 *_3b* wonders if there is some way to tell OSX to do whatever slow stuff it wants to do for new pages immediately but without waiting for it to finish 02:01:42 I could just write once every 512 elements or so, but that'd be even stranger ;) 02:02:09 Write to the pages: they'll get allocated, zero-filled, etc. 02:02:23 -!- pyrony [~epic@184.232.207.199] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:02:31 you still have to wait though, right. 02:02:41 wgl [~wgl@209.242.26.41] has joined #lisp 02:02:56 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2838F.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:03:10 pnq [~nick@ACA2838F.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 02:10:14 Liera [~Liera@113.172.38.123] has joined #lisp 02:12:33 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c72ce0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 02:12:39 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:16:23 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:32 Demosthenes [~demo@m4e5736d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 02:21:50 sublimepua [~sublimepu@cpe-72-224-203-207.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:22:04 -!- argiopeweb [~elliot@59.74.91.184.cfl.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 02:22:40 im a newbie, and looking at functional programming. why should i choose lisp over haskell? 02:22:41 _3b: I've put it up at . There's still a lot to polish before the code can hope to go in the mainline, but it seems promising. 02:22:52 sublimepua: take haskell. 02:23:21 really? 02:23:38 <_3b> if the goal is 'functional', probably 02:24:40 <_3b> (in this channel, 'lisp' means CL, which doesn't really focus on any particular programming style like 'functional') 02:24:44 well, the goal is a language that will make me able to write nice code 02:25:20 and i would be doing CL. scheme doesnt look like the better of the two offerings 02:25:33 I like the code that CL lets me write. But then again, I'd say the same of C. 02:25:42 sublimepua: then I suggest Mondrian 02:25:47 if you want to write nice code, the first step is to write code. 02:25:54 sublimepua: CL is multiparadigm: it has great support for functional programming, as well as great support for OO and procedural. It's really good at getting out of your way and letting you write whatever kind of code you want. 02:26:06 You can do nice things in just about any language, as long as you have taste. 02:26:45 sublimepua: sorry, I meant Piet 02:26:52 lol piet? 02:27:19 i dont wanna write something that only i can run 02:30:08 sublimepua: also watch out for code that only you can maintain :) 02:30:35 pfft thats how you keep a job for 45 years. 02:30:40 jk jk 02:31:09 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 02:31:53 Yuuhi` [benni@p5483A624.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:45 how much is lisp actually used in the wild nowadays? 02:33:09 You're asking people who use lisp. 02:33:33 <_3b> 'not as much as we would like'? 02:33:43 What _3b said. 02:33:47 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483A8A6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:34:33 <_3b> if you are looking for something that will get you jobs, CL might not be it, if you are looking for something with which to make your own job, it might be a good choice :) 02:34:44 I'm increasingly maintaining my documentation at work in a wiki I wrote in Lisp, and am testing a shopping-cart's integration with Alertpay, if that helps. 02:34:45 gotcha. hmm 02:34:53 <_3b> not to say there aren't CL jobs, you just have to work harder to find/get them 02:35:14 why isnt lisp used more? it seems so flexible, so universal 02:35:18 I don't have a lisp job (I don't really have a job, actually), but I use CL pretty much every day. 02:35:36 <_3b> not all decisions are rational :/ 02:35:39 ive heard you can write a lisp repl in lisp. intense. 02:35:51 <_3b> and not all rational decisions prioritize 'flexible' or 'universal' or even 'good' 02:36:36 you can write a Java REPL in Java as well... or C, C++ or C#. 02:37:06 <_3b> yeah, turing tarpit isn't particularly useful for choosing a language :) 02:37:10 sublimepua: if you think that's cool, consider that it was never supposed to be a programming language in the first place. McCarthy was working on a logic system, and was very surprised when one of his students pointed out that it could be compiled and turned into a REPL. 02:37:19 -!- pyrony_ [~epic@99-204-55-253.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:38:02 jfleming: it's not logic, it was a theoretical tool to explore recursion (in the theoretical computer science sense, self-referentiality). That's why we have quote and eval. 02:38:29 how difficult is it to actually do practical things in? say i wanted to write an rss reader. i know with C or Java i would be wading in code for weeks. lisp? 02:38:40 wait, can lisp be compiled? 02:38:42 depends on how well-formed the feed is. 02:38:50 sublimepua: everything can be compiled. 02:39:09 <_3b> some of the more popular CL implementations compile by default, even during interactive use 02:39:49 i mean interpreted vs compiled. python for example is almost always a script, can you eke a binary out of lisp? 02:40:11 <_3b> standalone binary is a separate issue 02:40:12 these are two different questions, but the answer is yes to both. 02:40:23 <_3b> (but most CLs do that, if possibly rather large binaries) 02:41:11 <_3b> size mainly being due to nobody caring enough to split off the runtime and standard libs into a separate install like most languages 02:41:48 gotcha. 02:42:36 cesarbp [~cesarbp@189.139.219.67] has joined #lisp 02:42:40 -!- cesarbp is now known as cbp 02:43:31 whats something big and shiny written in lisp 02:43:40 sausages [~valc@balmora.robotjunkyard.org] has joined #lisp 02:45:12 You can google for success stories. for instance. Is "Signal processing in missile defense" big and shiny? 02:45:13 <_3b> ITA airline reservation stuff, jak & daxter ps2 games, mirai 3d modelling tools, stumpwm 02:46:18 -!- ilynva [~energetik@mail.kgtei.ru] has left #lisp 02:47:42 sublimepua: sbcl. 02:48:13 -!- sausages [~valc@balmora.robotjunkyard.org] has quit [Client Quit] 02:49:57 sbcl? 02:50:11 <_3b> one of the more popular CL implementations 02:50:30 You could just google for that work. Or even bing it if you swing that way. 02:50:33 *for that word 02:51:14 google all the way. and hmm. gui? standard libraries? 02:51:37 <_3b> 'gui' is a weak spot unfortunately (at least in the free CLs) 02:52:18 <_3b> though there are qt and gtk bindings in varying states of usability 02:52:30 commonqt works quite well... for my needs... on sbcl... on linux 02:52:51 <_3b> cliki.net is a good place to find libraries 02:52:56 or quicklisp (: 02:53:02 <_3b> (and see also quicklisp for acquiring them) 02:53:04 -!- gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:54:04 gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 02:54:11 -!- sublimepua [~sublimepu@cpe-72-224-203-207.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:54:18 *_3b* just avoids the gui issue and compiles to flash or js 03:01:20 el-maxo_ [~max@p5DE8FB09.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:42 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.125.0] has joined #lisp 03:03:51 BountyX [~erhan@adsl-65-43-227-186.dsl.bcvloh.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:17 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-98-113-194-183.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:04:27 -!- el-maxo [~max@p5DE8E0F4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:06:03 -!- poindont` [~user@cloudbovina.bovinasancta.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:06:49 Is it possible to get a list of slot names (or accessors) for a class at runtime? 03:07:15 yes 03:07:16 mop:class-slots 03:07:32 I knew it was possible. I wonder if LispWorks has mop 03:07:39 it has 03:07:59 great, time to test this stuff 03:08:10 yasuto [~yasuto@pon099-070.kcn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:10:03 -!- yasuto [~yasuto@pon099-070.kcn.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 03:11:05 -!- ASau [~user@95-26-159-184.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: off] 03:13:57 -!- BountyX [~erhan@adsl-65-43-227-186.dsl.bcvloh.ameritech.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:14:23 psilord [~psilord@adsl-71-150-253-124.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:31 -!- psilord [~psilord@adsl-71-150-253-124.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 03:14:44 -!- sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:16:48 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.54.165] has joined #lisp 03:19:22 -!- ec|detached is now known as elliottcable 03:20:30 fusss [~chatzilla@blowes.lnk.telstra.net] has joined #lisp 03:22:05 this must be elementary, but I can't find an option in swank:create-server to listen on eth0, instead of loopback. I want to connect to Lisp from a slime on another box 03:22:53 Maybe listen on 0.0.0.0 instead of 127.0.0.1? 03:23:00 change swank::*loopback-interface* 03:24:08 fusss: I think most people find it safer to ssh -L 03:24:40 heh, right on all counts stassats` & pkhuong :-P 03:25:09 but the "remote" box is keeping my feet warm, so no harm in listening on all ifaces 03:26:46 same here. I still ssh in (because I'm lazy and sometimes log in from elsewhere) 03:26:57 antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:27:10 nalaginrut [~nalaginru@183.15.164.149] has joined #lisp 03:32:58 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:34:54 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 03:36:31 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:39 wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-24-193-121-20.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:42:59 schoene [~mark@cpe-24-93-238-67.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:47:03 pnq1 [~nick@ACA2083E.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 03:47:24 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2838F.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:48:23 -!- pnq1 is now known as pnq 03:52:23 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has joined #lisp 04:01:53 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.147.88] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:05:44 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p5483A624.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:05:49 Yuuhi` [benni@p5483A624.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:10:26 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl10-156-58.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:10:37 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-233-183-125.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:10:37 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-233-183-125.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 04:10:37 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 04:13:11 cfy [~cfy@122.228.135.213] has joined #lisp 04:13:11 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.135.213] has quit [Changing host] 04:13:11 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 04:15:59 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@blowes.lnk.telstra.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 4.0.1/20110413222027]] 04:18:10 -!- Triplefault [~Mouse@adsl-72-152-232-129.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:18:33 -!- tempire [~tempire@pool-72-91-241-135.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:21:15 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 04:27:51 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has joined #lisp 04:30:56 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2083E.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:35:44 tempire [~tempire@pool-72-91-241-135.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:43:04 -!- pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:49:26 gosh, some macro with the same name in another package messes up my indentation by putting its settings to common-lisp-indent-function property 04:50:01 that'd be not easy to solve 04:50:38 <_3b> we should just port slime to CL and use emacs as a dumb display terminal :p 04:51:10 <_3b> or s/we/someone/ rather :) 04:51:17 i was thinking getting rid of emacs entirely 04:51:24 <_3b> that might work 04:51:41 If beach and nyef fix clim we can all move to climacs (: 04:52:12 more like "move to working on climacs" 04:52:16 *_3b* supposes i at least have a markdown parser in CL, so that's one mode i'd want halfways done 04:52:56 stassats: sure - that's the fun stuff (: 04:53:22 *_3b* would still need a 'editor and the stuff i crash a lot not in same image' mode though :/ 04:53:48 splittist: but i want to write some code which is not an editor or a compiler sometimes too! 04:54:28 3b: Why not use these new-fangled things called 'processes'? :) 04:54:35 *jfleming* would dive into working on climacs if it started looking viable again 04:54:42 Zeiris_ [~Zeiris@S010600a0d1423e73.no.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:54:59 I could give it a full Vim mode! 04:55:00 it would be viable if someone started working on it 04:55:07 <_3b> Zhivago: because as far as i know, climacs doesn't know how to talk to other processes yet :/ 04:55:49 <_3b> Zhivago: adding that ability would be the logical solution though 04:56:19 _3b: can it use IP sockets? Or did I just volunteer to figure out how to graft that on? 04:56:32 it doesn't, and you did! 04:56:33 I am trying to learn a Lisp dialect that runs on a VM that's very, very immutable. I'm having trouble writing good-looking code, and part of the problem seems to be a lack of set. I've heard that Lisp is big on functional programming and side effect free code - where can I see good reference examples of such code for inspiration? 04:56:34 <_3b> jfleming: no idea, i've never actually tried it 04:56:50 there's also hemlock 04:57:01 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-39-232-239.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:57:05 zeiris: Most lisp dialects are procedural. 04:57:10 <_3b> Zeiris_: only some lisps care about that, here we mean common lisp when we say 'lisp', and CL doesn't care about it much 04:57:26 Fair enough. 04:57:35 zeiris: Avoiding side-effects where convenient is just sensible since managing side-effects is complicated. 04:57:54 You should also do that in C, for example. 04:58:07 It's somewhat harder in C due to the lack of garbage collection, but that's another issue. 04:58:13 <_3b> Zeiris_: you might look at scheme, particularly the subset taught in many schools, maybe look at sicp for example 04:58:25 Scheme is a procedural language as well. 04:59:10 I'm used to functional languages: my problem is not feeling good about how my code looks. 04:59:25 stassats`: OK. I've been wanting to merge my interests in CL and networking anyway. I guess that means I'm writing a functional spec for cl-swank, too :) 04:59:38 <_3b> ah, in that case, the lisp answer would be 'fix the language until it looks right' :) 04:59:43 i'd ditch swank too 05:00:03 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 05:00:12 Figures. I think I can hack together a local "set" with a macro :) 05:00:31 i thought it was "fix the language until it looks bad to everyone else" 05:00:31 stassats`: I've always been uncomfortable about relying on something that *still* doesn't have a spec beyond "whatever's implemented in the CVS head," so I'm not wedded to it. 05:00:40 <_3b> well, i meant more writing better abstractions than trying to force mutability onto it, but if you can do that, sure :) 05:00:55 -!- lanthan [~ze@p54B7E969.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 05:01:00 Frankly, I don't have a problem with mutation. 05:01:18 it's a tool of evolution 05:01:24 But I do want the propagation of side-effects to be clearly constrained. 05:01:29 So forget the part about cl-swank, then. I'll come up with a spec that does useful stuff, then watch in horror as the scope creeps like something out of a '50s horror movie. 05:02:16 My favorite approach to side effects thus far, is to make them more expensive than pure code by implementing 'em through message passing. 05:02:32 Turns preemptive optimization into a good thing. 05:03:08 I think that local side-effects are also ok. 05:03:25 But I agree about message passing for non-local ones. 05:03:40 Algorithmic message processors for the win. 05:04:16 <_3b> deciding on which side of a cl<->cl swank would be an interesting question 05:04:26 <_3b> *on which side to run things 05:04:53 evening 05:05:31 <_3b> introspect on demand on the 'remote' lisp, or copy metadata into some convenient form on the 'host' lisp, etc 05:06:14 the same is true for slime, some things are done in elisp, some in cl 05:06:52 <_3b> particularly things you might want to extend like readers, or overall grammar in cases like parenscript that allow ((foo bar) ...) 05:07:02 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:07:17 _3b: lots of stuff to figure out there. I'll start with getting a listener on the CL side and a client on the climacs side, and a protocol for passing stuff back and forth. We can layer the actual interaction on top of that. 05:07:54 you can take json or something 05:08:09 The nice thing about having both implemented in the same language is that functions can be moved wholesale from one to the other without a language impedance barrier. 05:08:18 and you can use it later to provide an easy way to interact with other languages 05:08:36 I'll make use of an existing protocol; I'm addicted to learning, but I also don't have enough hours in my week as it is. 05:08:56 well, that project smells for a couple of years 05:09:11 <_3b> something flexible enough to implement slime-proxy directly would be ncie too 05:09:30 stassats`: ? As in, it has the smell of a couple of years of rot, or it smells like a couple of years' work? 05:09:42 the latter 05:09:48 Yeah, that's what I figured. 05:10:40 If it helps, I spend a lot of my day-job on various levels of the OSI/TCP stack, so I'm very comfortable with the approach of dividing the work into layers that only interact with each other as much as absolutely necessary. 05:11:40 i think it'll be wise to reuse the TCP/IP protocol for this task 05:11:46 *_3b* would be tempted to try eclipsewm again if i had a cl editor too, still want to do some stuff like that code-bubbles editor, but at the wm/editor level 05:11:58 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-cxfyacmfqiyzdfec] has joined #lisp 05:12:35 That's a no-brainer: IPv{4,6} is the way to go, because it's well-established and well understood. OK, so v4 is well-established, but you get where I'm going. We already know how to build that kind of wheel. 05:12:41 fantazo_ [~fantazo@178-191-160-151.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 05:13:09 what is left, to implement it in CL? 05:13:15 i kid, i kid 05:14:04 stassats`: I've no background in actually writing a client or server, so that's where the fun part comes in. 05:14:20 Chances are I'll borrow heavily from Dr Weitz' existing body of work :) 05:15:03 well, if you want to use HTTP for communication 05:16:40 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@m4e5736d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:16:56 cfy` [~cfy@122.228.131.67] has joined #lisp 05:16:56 -!- fantazo__ [~fantazo@178-190-238-119.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:17:22 -!- cfy` is now known as Guest11163 05:18:39 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:19:34 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-24-193-121-20.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 05:23:08 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 05:24:37 I'll pull a copy of the climacs code, take a look, and go from there. 05:24:39 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:24:44 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sbahra] 05:25:36 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.149] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:26:43 stassats`: what is it in particular about swank that makes you think it's best to avoid? I was thinking it could be useful for building up a rough functional spec, because people will expect analogous functionality. 05:27:22 it has a lot of cruft accumulated over the years 05:28:44 json sounds like a sensible approach. 05:29:11 its size can be greatly reduced by employing usocket, bordeaux-threads, closer-mop 05:29:11 Guest111` [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has joined #lisp 05:29:39 It's slightly depressing, but javascript is almost the next generation lisp. 05:30:19 -!- Guest11163 [~cfy@122.228.131.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:30:58 The most annoying lack is probably packages. 05:31:06 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:31:25 you could fake it with objects 05:31:51 -!- elliottcable is now known as ec|detached 05:31:56 -!- ec|detached is now known as elliottcable 05:32:00 Except that you can't use them for identifiers. 05:32:37 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has joined #lisp 05:33:46 Zhivago: from what I've encountered of it so far, and from what Crockford has pointed out, its core appears to be a kind of scheme-with-C-syntax, so I'd concur with it being the next generation. 05:34:31 Well, it also takes the leap of using symbol-value maps as the basic data type. 05:34:53 It gets a hell of a lot right. 05:35:06 Almost gets rid of characters as well. 05:35:17 tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 05:35:20 -!- schoene [~mark@cpe-24-93-238-67.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:36:32 And it gets rid of threads. :) 05:36:39 Makes me optimistic for the future, really. 05:37:59 Whatever I do put in there, I'll learn a couple of lessons from the past as best I can: 1)documented spec, so that things other than climacs can act as clients, and 2)versioning built into the protocol, to make transitions easier. 05:38:12 And, and also gets rid of images -- another win. 05:38:33 The first version won't be anywhere near perfect, so it only makes sense to expect at least 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quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:05:33 Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 07:07:26 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 07:08:54 stis [~stis@host-78-79-225-85.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 07:12:37 ehu [~ehuels@109.34.52.166] has joined #lisp 07:15:02 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:16:41 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Quit: I'll see you on the dark side of the moon] 07:18:41 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 07:22:03 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-uvetcmsyrxopxhol] has joined #lisp 07:22:16 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:25:31 -!- xan_ [~xan@205.158.58.41.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:26:04 pyrony [~epic@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:26:08 aerique [310225@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:26:32 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75473e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:29:19 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@17.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:29:38 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-150-156.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:30:13 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:30:56 tcr [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:34:53 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 07:37:46 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 07:38:40 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-0-65.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:39:39 ThatHippie [~Talkky@client-208-124-77-166.consolidated.net] has joined #lisp 07:39:48 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-56-153.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:40:22 -!- udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-evmmdagtwezqvygz] has left #lisp 07:41:07 -!- nalaginrut [~nalaginru@183.15.164.149] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:42:08 Hi. I have expereice in Scheme but I have been looking to jump over to LISP. What would be a good book for me to get started? 07:42:20 Practical Common Lisp 07:42:37 minion: PCL 07:42:39 PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 07:42:51 whoa, minion is here 07:43:47 ThatHippie: There's people really enjoying Land of Lisp as well and I have heard no bad things about it. No personal experience with it though. 07:44:55 Thanks for the suggestions 07:50:19 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:53:22 Xach: here? :-) 07:54:53 -!- Guest111` [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:56:43 ThatHippie, aerique: Land Of Lisp is fine, too; I enjoyed it. 07:57:20 flip214: thanks, I was planning to put it on my reading list for the next holiday 07:59:30 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-144.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:00:45 well one more cyclic structures experience... 08:01:07 had to cycle the highway... 08:01:08 lol 08:04:20 Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@1807ds2-noe.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 08:04:25 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 08:05:07 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:08:47 -!- orivej [~orivej@host-46-146-66-217.spbmts.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:12:25 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:12:40 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.82.89.16] has joined #lisp 08:13:07 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 08:13:29 Joreji [~thomas@73-222.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 08:13:35 steevy [~steevy@95-89-223-125-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:15:45 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:17:14 -!- ThatHippie [~Talkky@client-208-124-77-166.consolidated.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:18:08 -!- gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:18:22 gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 08:22:04 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.34.52.166] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:23:30 ehu [~ehuels@109.34.212.110] has joined #lisp 08:24:19 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-144.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:24:40 Guthur [c743cb8c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.140] has joined #lisp 08:27:28 i'm getting WARNING: There is no such encoding: "utf-16" print with CXML 08:27:34 any idea how to suppress this 08:28:12 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 08:30:19 add its support to cxml 08:31:26 so, commit message in cxml are now in German? 08:31:27 basho__ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-237-155.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:32:11 s/message/messages/ 08:33:20 oh, I could make an acceptable commit then, I don't speak German 08:33:27 couldn't 08:33:52 sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 08:34:00 it's never too late to learn it 08:35:21 with french for that book 08:39:00 brandelune [~suzume@pl571.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:41:21 -!- kaek [~b@c-99cfe253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:41:42 kaek [~b@c-99cfe253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:41:43 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 08:41:48 and then learn UTF 08:42:12 ehu` [~ehuels@109.32.48.193] has joined #lisp 08:42:28 I might see if i can get cxml Recoders to work first 08:43:10 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.82.89.16] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 08:43:41 Don't they teach anything at your university? 08:43:47 :-) 08:44:39 cxml uses babel, i don't know for what, though 08:44:59 xml files are specified as byte sequences, not as text files. 08:45:05 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.34.212.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:45:09 That's why they have this encoding=.... stuff in the first tag. 08:45:20 c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-ygloxbvrnuadyfmn] has joined #lisp 08:45:45 Should I link the paper about (C) implementation specific stuff again? 08:49:49 -!- Joreji [~thomas@73-222.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:51:04 another option: go back in time and kill the creators of alternative encodings and leave just one 08:51:50 stassats`: java took a simple way out 08:51:55 *madnificent* can't believe it actually worked for them 08:52:21 they created so horrible languages it kills anyone trying to use it? 08:52:41 language 08:52:55 yes, but they got away with using a single character set 08:53:02 kaelol [~b@c-99cfe253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:53:27 and they don't interact with the outside world? 08:53:50 -!- lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:54:06 I wouldn't be surprised if lisp was more foreign world friendly than java. 08:54:15 everyone started using their encoding, or so it seems... 08:55:03 -!- fantazo_ [~fantazo@178-191-160-151.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:55:10 Sgeo [~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 08:55:18 whatever encoding you are talking about, everyone didn't start using it 08:55:37 lifeng [~lifeng@155.69.43.70] has joined #lisp 08:55:39 Slightly off-topic, but I just downloaded newLISP, and am already ticked off about the IDE it comes with 08:55:53 IIRC, they chose unicode, which then later got expanded itself 08:56:04 unicode is not an encoding 08:56:04 ceders [~ceders@adsl-69-231-121-141.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 08:56:08 -!- kaek [~b@c-99cfe253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:56:10 Sgeo: forget about it. 08:56:30 If you want a small lisp, you can always defpackage one in CL. 08:56:45 stassats`: well, to some extent, they did. When I get assignments now, no one is possibly asking about the encoding, everyone just assumes it will work with java... 08:56:50 I've played with Picolisp a bit and liked it 08:56:50 stassats`: it isn't? 08:56:51 kaek [~b@c-99cfe253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:57:27 it isn't 08:57:44 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@155.69.43.70] has quit [Client Quit] 08:57:59 pjb, huh? 08:58:06 then what is it? It's a grouping of standards telling you how to put characters on the wire... 08:58:12 (wrt defpackage0 08:58:13 ) 08:58:20 francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has joined #lisp 08:58:26 I thought they picked UTF-16 which was the most advanced at the time (and later proved to be too small) 08:59:06 madnificent: No, they chose UCS-2, in fact 08:59:16 hi guys can someone help me with this, it's very likely just a minor adjustement: http://paste.lisp.org/display/121975 related to padding 08:59:21 madnificent: Then they changed to UTF-16 when they realised how stupid they had been 08:59:44 -!- kaelol [~b@c-99cfe253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:59:57 what i want is print alwats two digits so if it's "11/6/2010" want it to be "11/06/2010" 09:00:15 (defpackage "MY-SMALL-LISP" (:use "CL") (:export "DEFUN" "-" "IF" "LET")) 09:00:15 s/alwats/always 09:00:43 loke: UTF-8 superseded UCS-2, which made it hte logical option, I thought 09:00:44 (defpackage "MY-PROGRAM" (:use "MY-SMALL-LISP")) (defun + (a b) (- a (- b))) ... 09:00:50 *Sgeo* wants call/cc in CL 09:00:51 cpape [root@linux01.gwdg.de] has joined #lisp 09:01:14 Sgeo: you can also define it. There's one eg. in Uncommon Web. (in Arnesi actually IIRC) 09:01:31 ~2,'0d 09:01:32 madnificent: well, not really. Java had already become committed to UCS-2, so UTF-16 was a logical choice as it's binary forwards compatible with UCS-2 09:01:40 UTF-8, on the other hand looks nothing like UTF-16 09:01:56 for the record: I'm not saying that I dislike the Lisp way. Java took a completely incorrect route. Yet still, it amazes me. 09:01:57 -!- basho__ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-237-155.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:02:10 mcguitan83 [~user@negroni.enst.fr] has joined #lisp 09:02:11 loke: interesting 09:02:17 basho__ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-237-155.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:02:50 stassats`: ok instead of the ~a then I replace ~2,'0d, it works thanks 09:03:05 These days, for a new system, only UTF-32 or UTF-8 make any sense 09:03:19 My biggest obstacle to learning a Lisp-family language is choosing between Common Lisp, Racket, and Chicken 09:03:33 Sgeo; Common Lisp 09:03:36 Sgeo: Do you intend to write real applications? 09:03:36 if you ignore u i o, why do you include them at all? 09:03:36 hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:03:37 there problem solved 09:03:39 Sgeo: Common Lisp 09:03:58 Sgeo: solved, just pick common lisp 09:04:01 and "a z e r x y" aren't very good names 09:04:07 Sgeo: if the answer is yes, then Common Lisp. If it's no, then "probably Common Lisp" 09:04:11 Sgeo: in CL, there's a scheme implementation, so you can write your programs part in CL part in scheme as you like. 09:04:19 Sgeo: also, this channel talks about common lisp, #scheme will give you a different answer :) 09:04:30 I have a feeling that #racket and #chicken would ... what madnificent said 09:04:36 he should go ask in #haskell 09:04:44 To get a neutral opinion. 09:04:46 don't listen to #scheme, they're biased 09:04:51 LoL 09:05:05 guther: not only biased. They're also wrong. 09:06:06 madnificent: wrt the previous discussion, Java was screwed the second they decided that char be a 16-bit entity 09:06:21 madnificent: The Windows are fucked up in the same way 09:06:26 (only worse) 09:06:27 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:07:01 loke: it obviously was a very very bad choice, though it seemed reasonable to me at the time 09:07:33 Well unicode wasn't so advanced, 16-bit sounded like a precautious choice. 09:08:25 pjb: True. I'm not saying the choice was necessarily bad based on the information they had at the time. I'm just saying that that was what sealed the deal, so to speak. 09:08:40 francogrex: http://paste.lisp.org/display/121975#1 09:09:05 Well, time for me to be a driver for the family :-) 09:09:49 and for me to go to the coffee bar 09:10:06 enlightening talk loke 09:10:07 stassats`: ok thanks. I'm having another diffuculty, some universal time is not in unsigned-byte type, like I have this 3.45465e9 entry to decode... 09:10:31 Joreji [~thomas@73-222.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 09:10:32 that's not universal time 09:10:38 sure enough, my lisp doesn't like it 09:11:48 and it's impossible to represent time in floats accurately 09:12:50 well to be honest with you, I don't know how I got this entry, it was from a database, using plain-odbc is supposed to convert the date in sqlite to universal time... all else is correct except this one! 09:13:21 do you cast it to a float somewhere? 09:13:29 bjoern1 [~bjoern@46.115.17.14] has joined #lisp 09:14:21 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:15:19 stassats`: not that I'm aware of... but I'll investigate the src code... usually it's a blunder at some point that I need to fix 09:15:55 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has joined #lisp 09:16:43 cfy [~cfy@218.75.27.169] has joined #lisp 09:16:43 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.27.169] has quit [Changing host] 09:16:43 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 09:17:08 superjudge [~superjudg@195.22.80.141] has joined #lisp 09:17:23 stassats`: yes! you got that at one point there is a multiplication by 280.0... 09:17:30 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75473e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:17:56 pjb: in CL, there's a scheme implementation --? Where is that implementation you speak of? 09:22:44 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 09:24:25 add^_ [~add^_^@h215n1c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 09:31:05 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:31:44 -!- Joreji [~thomas@73-222.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:32:43 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has joined #lisp 09:33:46 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 09:33:46 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 09:33:46 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 09:36:06 ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 09:36:44 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:36:47 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:37:58 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:39:28 -!- francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:39:48 cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.67] has joined #lisp 09:39:48 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.67] has quit [Changing host] 09:39:48 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 09:42:13 BlankVerse [~pankajm@122.166.119.36] has joined #lisp 09:43:18 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:45:40 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 09:50:08 iori [~iori@110-133-45-54.rev.home.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:50:10 -!- iori [~iori@110-133-45-54.rev.home.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:53:34 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 10:00:58 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.12.183] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:03:49 -!- ehu` [~ehuels@109.32.48.193] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:04:29 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:05:22 stis_ [~stis@host-95-196-159-23.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 10:06:10 -!- stis [~stis@host-78-79-225-85.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:06:42 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-uvetcmsyrxopxhol] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:09:58 stis__ [~stis@host-95-194-99-240.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 10:10:06 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-130-167.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:10:10 -!- stis_ [~stis@host-95-196-159-23.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:13:17 eli: it's called pseudo. 10:13:22 It's in the AILab Repository. 10:13:39 ehu [~ehuels@109.34.253.197] has joined #lisp 10:15:13 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/lang/scheme/impl/pseudo/0.html 10:16:26 minion: tell us about ailab 10:16:27 us: please look at ailab: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/project/ai-repository/ 10:17:46 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 10:19:44 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:20:07 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.34.253.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:21:01 pjb: that minion link 403s for me. 10:21:17 ehu [~ehuels@109.34.253.197] has joined #lisp 10:21:29 carlocci [~nes@93.37.213.194] has joined #lisp 10:22:50 -!- gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [] 10:26:39 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:28:17 lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 10:30:19 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:31:54 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-gjljkbwysmtjxlzb] has joined #lisp 10:34:08 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-ygloxbvrnuadyfmn] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:35:49 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 10:36:10 -!- stis__ [~stis@host-95-194-99-240.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:36:22 stis__ [~stis@host-95-200-240-221.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 10:36:45 moin 10:37:39 I'm currently compiling sbcl on an i5 and I'm waiting for more than two hours - did my compile-process go mad? 10:38:39 sbcl is compiled in 3 and a half minutes no my i5 10:38:57 mobydick [~textual@124-171-72-nwork.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:38:59 stassats okay, thanks. 10:39:14 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-130-167.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 10:40:16 c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-grpplznkztztqigi] has joined #lisp 10:43:00 pnq [~nick@ACA2B037.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 10:43:05 stassats`: welcome to 2011! 10:43:34 i'm not impressed, i want it to be under a minute 10:44:11 then you need a core i1, duh. 10:45:03 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-130-167.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:45:06 maybe building contribs concurrently would speed it up a bit 10:46:43 splittist: ok, the correct url is http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/ 10:47:40 minion tell me about ailab 10:47:54 minion: tell me about ailab 10:47:55 pjb: direct your attention towards ailab: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/ 10:50:35 ehu` [~ehuels@109.32.63.252] has joined #lisp 10:51:11 -!- stis__ [~stis@host-95-200-240-221.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:51:17 stis [~stis@host-90-235-139-85.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 10:51:43 oh I thought Minion had gone the way of the Dodo 10:51:44 sharps [~hazel@121-72-240-85.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #lisp 10:52:08 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-131-53.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 10:52:38 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.54.165] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:54:11 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.34.253.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:54:40 -!- ehu` [~ehuels@109.32.63.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:57:17 Guthur: yes, it's been cloned back again too 10:57:37 ehu [~ehuels@109.33.22.69] has joined #lisp 10:59:29 ah, now it works .. 11:00:39 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-131-53.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:00:55 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:01:56 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 11:03:24 -!- gor[e] [~svr@gw2.masterhost.ru] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 11:03:41 -!- stis [~stis@host-90-235-139-85.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:03:45 gor[e] [~svr@gw2.masterhost.ru] has joined #lisp 11:04:07 stis [~stis@host-78-79-73-191.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 11:05:22 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 11:08:54 -!- mobydick [~textual@124-171-72-nwork.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 11:10:52 stis_ [~stis@host-90-235-94-146.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 11:11:07 -!- stis [~stis@host-78-79-73-191.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:11:07 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:12:27 ' 11:12:33 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:12:42 ,` 11:14:07 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-32-12-181.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 11:17:15 -!- mcguitan83 [~user@negroni.enst.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:18:18 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-grpplznkztztqigi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:18:46 lame question, how does one create a directory from CL 11:19:24 -!- stis_ [~stis@host-90-235-94-146.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:19:44 stis_ [~stis@host-95-198-2-54.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 11:20:04 ensure-directory-exists 11:20:14 c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-cbgpzaqpxllmsomk] has joined #lisp 11:20:19 *directories-exist 11:20:24 ensure-directories-exist 11:21:21 sellout- [~Adium@rrcs-70-62-104-250.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:21:36 cheers 11:21:39 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-cbgpzaqpxllmsomk] has quit [Client Quit] 11:21:50 Quadresce [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 11:23:44 c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-kmtdwwmwydkapshq] has joined #lisp 11:24:58 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:25:58 Is there any way to save an input stream? Something like (with-input-from-string (stream "this is the input") (setf testvar stream)) 11:26:04 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.164.205] has joined #lisp 11:26:46 I want to save the contents of a binary stream, and i can't think of how :-( 11:26:52 read from it? 11:27:16 Yes, i want to read it at a later point 11:28:10 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-cxfyacmfqiyzdfec] has left #lisp 11:29:11 I was thinking about just storing the data in a string, but im not sure strings can handle the contents of a binary stream? 11:29:36 strings can't, of course, but other vectors can 11:30:31 Munksgaard: you want to read the contents of a stream into a buffer for later reading from the buffer, or you want to keep a reference to an open stream around for later reading from that stream? 11:30:41 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:30:50 splittist: The former 11:32:37 stassats`: But i don't know how much data i'm getting, so i can't just make-array, or what? 11:33:22 Munksgaard: make an extensible byte-vector or something like that 11:33:47 why do you need that, anyway? 11:34:22 use vector-push-extend to supply the data 11:34:22 Munksgaard: you can use(setf saved (pathname stream)) and use the result to (with-open-file (stream saved) ...) 11:34:38 stis__ [~stis@host-78-79-73-219.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 11:34:47 Of course, use (with-open-file (stream "/tmp/tempfile") ...) in the first place ;-) 11:35:02 -!- stis_ [~stis@host-95-198-2-54.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:35:05 well, if it's a file stream, you can move the position 11:35:32 It's not a file, i'm reading from a socket, and i want to cache the data :) 11:36:18 Depends on the size of the data: if it's small, you can just read it in a buffer. If it's big copy it to a temp file. 11:36:49 You may write an abstraction that hides those details, and switch automatically from buffer to file depending on the size of what's received. 11:38:27 pjb: Yeah. As a start, i'd just like to cache it in memory. My question is, what could i use as a buffer for binary data? 11:38:59 sharps: hm, that could work i guess... don't know much about extensible vectors/arrays though, how does it work? 11:39:13 Munksgaard: a vector of bytes. 11:39:17 you create it with the :fill-pointer option to make-array 11:39:17 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 11:39:30 use vector-push-extend to supply data 11:39:42 other than that, I think it's mostly like a normal byte vector 11:39:46 (make-array 8 :fill-pointer 0 :adjustable t) 11:39:50 albeit slow 11:39:59 which you can save in the image or on disc and index later 11:40:01 there's surely some library that keeps a list of arrays or something like that, right? 11:40:03 It's not slow. 11:40:06 yeah, it needs to be adjustable, too 11:40:10 stis [~stis@host-95-194-86-11.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 11:40:12 but it is 11:40:26 I read somebody this week who was surprised adjutable arrays gave him faster results than normal arrays. 11:40:32 Perhaps in your implementation. 11:40:36 pjb: do you have a link? 11:40:37 -!- stis__ [~stis@host-78-79-73-219.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:40:46 No, sorry. 11:41:04 in any implementation 11:41:23 -!- sellout- [~Adium@rrcs-70-62-104-250.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:41:25 It's slow like C is fast. 11:42:10 Munksgaard: how much data do you have? do you expect speed to be an issue? 11:42:36 sharps: it comes from a socket!!! 11:42:49 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 11:43:41 pjb: are we reading kilobytes or gigabytes from said socket? 11:43:42 Bronsa [~brace@host120-178-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:44:07 or rather, for how long will we be reading from that socket? 11:44:18 In either case, the additionnal micro instructions that might be needed to deal with the adjustable array is moot compared with the I/O! 11:44:24 ah 11:44:29 true 11:44:38 yeah, speed won't be an issue then 11:44:48 sharps: Well, actually between a few kilobytes and a couple of hundred megabytes :). I'm not really concerned about running out of memory 11:44:50 that depends on what you do with that array 11:44:57 jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.32.190] has joined #lisp 11:45:08 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-130-167.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 11:45:16 sellout- [~Adium@rrcs-70-62-104-250.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:45:21 pjb: there might be quite a few instructions, if reallocation and gc is necessary 11:45:22 i'm not too concerned about speed either. Not for now at least 11:45:38 pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 11:45:52 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-204-121.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:46:08 silenius [~silenus@p4FC22CDB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:46:31 I think an adjustable vector will do just fine for me. Thanks for the hep guys. 11:46:34 Munksgaard: short of creating an alist of (position . bit) pairs you should be OK with whatever you decide to do at this stage. 11:46:35 Something funny: http://james-iry.blogspot.com/2009/05/brief-incomplete-and-mostly-wrong.html 11:46:55 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-204-121.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:47:12 that's old 11:47:43 What's old for somebody who programs with a prehistoric programming language? 11:48:11 paleolisp 11:49:05 cbp [~cesarbp@189.139.219.67] has joined #lisp 11:50:58 aperturefever [20164@ninthfloor.org] has joined #lisp 11:53:07 stis_ [~stis@host-95-198-11-254.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 11:53:14 -!- stis [~stis@host-95-194-86-11.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:55:15 -!- jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.32.190] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:59:16 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:02:11 -!- elliottcable is now 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left #lisp 12:47:55 -!- La0fer [~Laofers1@64.120.233.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:50:18 kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has joined #lisp 12:50:47 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 12:53:41 hi tcr 12:57:26 hey 12:57:38 dunno if my suggestion is feasible 12:57:46 just something I stumbled over earlier today 12:59:47 It sounds reasonable but I too am not sure how feasible 13:01:25 -!- aperturefever [20164@ninthfloor.org] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:01:30 I'm only superficially familiar with how buildapp works 13:02:09 one problem might be that you can't easily install a global error handler 13:02:33 maybe the debugger-hook in the dump child process should write out a summary file 13:02:50 http://xach.com/lisp/buildapp/#implementation outlines the process 13:03:32 sorry the bit about invoke-debugger was a no-brainer 13:03:41 we are not interested in errors after all 13:04:33 I guess wrapping the content of the dumpfile into a handler-bind won't work as that wouldn't preserve toplevelness? 13:04:37 what do you guys use for documentation? 13:05:05 hm how do you load the dumpfile into the child process? 13:06:00 blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-45763541.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:06:02 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2B037.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:07:13 Areil [~user@113.172.38.123] has joined #lisp 13:07:17 jweiss [~user@cpe-069-134-063-238.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:08:16 tcr: hmm, --load, i think. i'll check. 13:08:32 tcr: yes, --load 13:08:42 btw. with the invoke-debugger-hook changes, from what I see, buildapp /could/ support a debugger-hook ? 13:09:43 tcr: to specify a function name to use for that purpose? yes, i think that could work 13:09:53 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:10:07 -!- steevy [~steevy@95-89-223-125-dynip.superkabel.de] has left #lisp 13:10:11 orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has joined #lisp 13:11:39 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host120-178-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:11:58 Bronsa [~brace@host120-178-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:12:28 so one way is to load the dumpfile with eval "(handler-bind (load "dumpfile"))" 13:13:28 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:13:52 It sounds interesting. I'm afraid I don't have time to think about it much. :( 13:15:12 nice trick to make we want to do it myself :-) but neither do I 13:15:34 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:07 The next change I make to quicklisp will be to overhaul the system-finding mechanism internals and adding --asdf-manifest support 13:16:12 err, buildapp, not quicklisp 13:16:58 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 13:18:22 what does it do? 13:19:21 tcr: has a list of system file pathanmes used to build a table mapping system-name -> .asd name. a file like that can be emitted by quicklisp to preserve its system blacklist and preference mechanism. 13:20:10 I need something finer than just --asdf-tree ~/quicklisp/ 13:21:25 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:21:35 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 13:22:54 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 13:23:26 -!- ceders 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[~fgump__@188.74.82.177] has joined #lisp 13:53:17 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-103-171.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:53:17 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-103-171.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:53:19 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 13:55:55 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-rpfqqniebtukiqkb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:56:20 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:57:06 am0c [~am0c@112.149.169.21] has joined #lisp 13:59:15 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 13:59:19 -!- LiamH [~healy@129-2-135-113.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:00:42 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@195.22.80.141] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 14:00:53 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:01:19 HET2 [~diman@217.171.129.80] has joined #lisp 14:01:52 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has joined #lisp 14:02:52 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:02:56 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:03:02 pjb` [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 14:03:37 -!- HET2 [~diman@217.171.129.80] has quit [Client Quit] 14:04:15 HET2 [~diman@217.171.129.80] has joined #lisp 14:05:30 sonnym1 [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 14:06:12 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-kmtdwwmwydkapshq] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:06:12 -!- HET2 [~diman@217.171.129.80] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:06:19 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.33.22.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:06:30 topeak [~topeak@180.77.211.95] has joined #lisp 14:07:41 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:08:52 pjb`: No, that's not Scheme, and even if you ignore it's explicit omissions you get a minimal implementation, which is very far from actual implementations (which is what Sgeo was talking about). 14:09:39 hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:08 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-103-171.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:14:13 unik [~unik@ppp-94-68-158-102.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 14:14:23 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-103-171.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:34 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:15:23 HET2 [~diman@217.171.129.80] has joined #lisp 14:16:51 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:51 -!- andreer [andreer@flode.pvv.ntnu.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:18:55 -!- absence [torgeihe@horisont.pvv.ntnu.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:18:58 muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:51 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:23:25 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-213-245.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 14:24:21 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:25:14 -!- silenius [~silenus@p4FC22CDB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:26:45 ChibaPet [~mason@206.53.243.26] has joined #lisp 14:26:48 -!- HET2 [~diman@217.171.129.80] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:26:48 o/ 14:27:08 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:29:56 Soulman1 [~knute@250.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 14:31:15 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host120-178-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:32:31 iori [~iori@110-133-45-54.rev.home.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:32:32 -!- iori [~iori@110-133-45-54.rev.home.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:32:54 iori [~iori@110-133-45-54.rev.home.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:32:58 muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:22 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 14:34:07 jorgeu [~jorgeu@190.74.50.207] has joined #lisp 14:34:41 -!- hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:34:48 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-204-121.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:34:54 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:36:38 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 14:36:38 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 14:36:38 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 14:37:27 hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 14:37:56 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 14:38:12 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-204-121.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:41:29 -!- hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:42:42 hi 14:42:43 http://code.google.com/p/circuit/ 14:42:52 cooperation is welcome 14:43:35 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-103-171.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:43:55 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-103-171.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:45:20 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.146.154] has joined #lisp 14:46:11 hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:46 it is a non profit work 14:47:53 is there a specific way to write function specifications ? so that an autodoc program can use it ? 14:49:53 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-204-121.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:50:15 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA357A4.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:50:41 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.146.154] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:50:50 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-204-121.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:52:25 rdd [~user@c83-250-52-16.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:52:29 psilord [~psilord@ppp-70-226-163-151.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:19 -!- sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:53:58 -!- hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:54:43 akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-093-204.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:55:08 what do that means :type 'string, :group 'auto-document ? 14:55:53 -!- pyrony [~epic@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:56:37 -!- aerique [310225@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 14:56:46 You can balance weasels on a rake? :) 14:56:55 naiv: this might not solve your problem, but qbook can take a system and run through it and pull out the documented bits. 14:57:16 it's what 5am uses for generating it's documentation. 14:57:23 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-103-171.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:57:40 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-103-171.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:16 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-213-245.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:58:20 -!- am0c [~am0c@112.149.169.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:59:41 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-150-156.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:59:42 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 15:00:09 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-5-187.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 15:00:31 hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:04 longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has joined #lisp 15:02:35 Is there a good library for parsing date-strings such as "Thursday, 01 Dec 1994"? 15:03:08 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl21-89-16.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 15:03:54 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.82.89.16] has joined #lisp 15:04:43 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-103-171.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:05:00 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-103-171.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:54 HG` [~HG@p5DC05007.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:49 Munksgaard: do you remember what RFC that is? (it looks like email date which I think cl-smtp / a related lib has a parser for) 15:10:00 8601? 15:10:11 see also net-telent-date 15:10:11 (ISO) 15:12:01 Munksgaard: sorry I was wrong, cl-smtp only prints email dates (doesnt seem to read them) 15:12:39 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-103-171.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:12:50 bobbysmith007: actually its the HTTP date format, which can be one of RFC 722, RFC 750, or ANSI C's asctime() format 15:13:02 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-103-171.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:06 Also, websites throw all sorts of crappy dates at you 15:13:24 (like just "Sat,") 15:15:21 rfc 822 and rfc 850* 15:15:29 limetree [~simon@c-23e8e155.1226-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:17:35 pyrony [~epic@173.151.41.156] has joined #lisp 15:18:15 someone told me a few days ago how to get emacs to indent using space only, but I lost the relevant variable. it doesn't seem to be indent-tabs-mode (set to nil). 15:18:44 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-103-171.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:18:49 Munksgaard: sorry, not locating anything right now. (ah date times, the most detestable data) 15:18:57 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-103-171.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:10 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.146.154] has joined #lisp 15:19:37 (setq-default indent-tabs-mode nil) 15:19:40 I believe 15:19:42 Munksgaard: as Fade mentioned above, net-telent seems to handle it 15:20:03 Munksgaard: (net.telent.date::parse-time "Thursday, 01 Dec 1994" )->2995246800 15:21:20 I also have (setq gutter-buffers-tab-enabled nil) but I'm not remember what that is off the top of my head - only other thing that looks similar in my .emacs 15:21:27 -!- topeak [~topeak@180.77.211.95] has left #lisp 15:22:30 ChibaPet: ok. i think it was another variable... does setq vs setq-default make a difference in this case? 15:23:14 I'm just recently forcing myself back into Emacs, and my impression is "no, it doesn't make a difference" but that's absolutely not an authoritative statement. 15:23:14 wait, there are logs for this channel, i can just check them. 15:23:39 Ah, logs. If you could refresh my memory / educate me I'd be grateful! 15:24:27 yes, setq-default indent-tabs-mode is the right way 15:24:30 Hm, actually, it probably does make a difference. I just don't have the definition handy. 15:24:56 (setq-default indent-tabsp-mode nil) 15:25:23 no p, though 15:25:37 Odd, I don't have that, and yet I don't believe I see hard tabs in my files. 15:25:45 I'll have to double check. Thank you. 15:25:59 ohh, it was just a typo 15:26:18 i thought it was tab-space mode or something. 15:26:30 also check M-x untabify 15:29:22 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 15:29:30 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 15:29:30 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:30:46 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-gjljkbwysmtjxlzb] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:30:58 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:31:00 bobbysmith007, Fade: yeah, that looks good. Thanks guys. 15:33:07 TDT [~user@74.115.254.25] has joined #lisp 15:33:54 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:34:45 Hey all. I'm trying to get clsql to work on OSX - got it working on Linux quite easily, but am getting an error like this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/121979 I thought it may have to do with mysql libraries, so I made sure those were installed...and make, from the repository within quicklisp works fine, but (ql:quickload "clsql") fails. Has anyone tried to get this working in OSX and knows the solution? 15:35:00 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:35:11 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:35:12 that's not the error 15:35:25 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:36:04 Unfortunately it gives very little useful information that I can tell 15:36:15 I'll put the whole output up, one sec. 15:36:32 see for the error somewhere else in the output 15:37:49 http://paste.lisp.org/display/121979#2 -- this happens right before the annotation above it. 15:39:38 ChibaPet: are you able to balance weasels on a rake? 15:41:03 pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:41:08 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:41:10 TDT: update your clsql 15:42:12 stassats`: Thought it may be that quicklisp is out of date, deleting the cache right now, removing clsql from the system, doing a ql update, then a reinstall...trying that at the moment 15:42:46 Posterdati, I can balance two on one arm, but I've never tried a rake. 15:44:38 stassats`: Well, that looks like it did it. Bit of a PITA, but at least I got it now. Thanks, glad we were ont he same wavelength on what to try :) 15:45:31 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-129-43.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:45:41 well, i wasn't suggesting to try it, i was sure! 15:45:51 ChibaPet: this could be a problem 15:46:35 I could do it on a broom rake perhaps. Iron rake, questionable. 15:46:56 homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-195-168.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:46:58 -!- fogus` is now known as fogus`lunch 15:47:09 parkq [~parkq@c-24-91-50-10.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:15 stassats`: :) 15:49:08 OK, I've just created my first functioning CL application that uses lots of parallelism (lost of mutexes and stuff). I've built it like I would have in Java, and come to the realisation that that is not a very pleasant way of doing it. 15:49:20 -!- pyrony [~epic@173.151.41.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:49:23 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.146.154] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:49:31 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A66ED.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:49:40 urandom__ [~user@p548A66ED.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:44 i liked sbcl's mailboxes 15:50:11 stassats`: mailboxes? Tell me more 15:50:23 Erlangish? 15:50:27 bubo [~bubo@88-117-11-223.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 15:50:40 sb-concurrency:mailbox 15:50:52 thanks, I'll look into it 15:51:08 loke: Sadly trying to build something like you would in another language in a different language usually turns out poorly to a degree. They say, when in rome do as the romans do. 15:51:23 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 15:51:30 stassats`, does that handle message passing between processes? 15:52:05 TDT: exactly. 15:52:13 TDT: I know full well why my solution is a horrible mess 15:52:35 ChibaPet: it provides message passing between threads 15:52:46 Xach: Does buildapp work on windows? 15:52:51 Heavyweight threads, or lightweight? 15:53:03 As in, does it present its own threading? 15:53:08 (Erlangish?) 15:53:09 sbcl has only native threads 15:53:16 ah, that's too bad 15:53:23 that depends 15:53:38 TDT: problem is, there seems to be no agreement of what is the "proper" way in CL to handle this (my application is a hunchentoot application where the clients accesses various shared resources, some of which are handlers for javascript EventSource's which block until certain objects updates) 15:53:45 The win with Erlangish lightweight threads is HUGE scalability and minimal loss to context-switching overhead. 15:53:51 At least as I understand it. 15:53:54 well, if you want er 15:54:00 lang, you know where to find it 15:54:16 I do, I do indeed. And there's also LFE. 15:54:38 LFE seems to be contrived 15:55:19 I'd rather have EFL 15:55:32 loke, that'd be the lightweight threads. :P 15:55:38 ChibaPet: exactly :-) 15:57:06 ChibaPet: broomstick are strange! 15:57:22 But useful. 15:57:50 dboswell [~user@64.55.42.6] has joined #lisp 15:59:02 -!- unik [~unik@ppp-94-68-158-102.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:00:04 ChibaPet: I mean for weasel handling 16:02:24 does SBCL save-lisp-and-die usually take a long time 16:02:41 loke: Sadly in those situations you may find there isn't a really good solution to it and need to make the best you can. 16:02:42 Hun` [~hun@95-90-10-28-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 16:02:51 (sorry for the late reply, in other windows working) 16:02:52 Guthur: do you usually not have a real computer? 16:03:04 stassats`: reasonable real 16:03:13 kruth [~chatzilla@c-68-84-174-65.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:13 reasonably* 16:03:20 TDT: which is what I did. Unfortunately, the best I could was not good enough. Which is why I mentioned it here in the hope that people give their views on the general subject. 16:03:30 so, it depends on how much memory you are using 16:03:35 can one save from the slime REPL 16:03:45 not really 16:03:53 (not always) 16:03:59 well that maybe the issue 16:04:06 -!- kruth [~chatzilla@c-68-84-174-65.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:04:17 it wouldn't take long, it just wouldn't work 16:04:24 jweiss_ [~user@cpe-069-134-063-238.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:04:40 stassats` as in fail? 16:04:40 Be back later... 16:04:40 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.82.89.16] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 16:04:46 -!- ChibaPet [~mason@206.53.243.26] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:04:47 Guthur: yes 16:04:47 or hang 16:05:05 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:05:25 -!- jweiss_ [~user@cpe-069-134-063-238.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:06:41 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:07:38 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 16:08:58 -!- chp [~chp@2001:da8:a000:155:5eff:35ff:fe0c:c3ef] has left #lisp 16:10:20 pyrony [~epic@office1.klout.com] has joined #lisp 16:11:24 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:12:03 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:12:39 HET2 [~diman@217.171.129.80] has joined #lisp 16:14:32 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.80.12] has quit [Quit: Boom.] 16:14:49 jdz [~jdz@87.14.110.166] has joined #lisp 16:16:31 -!- dboswell [~user@64.55.42.6] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:16:49 dboswell [~user@64.55.42.6] has joined #lisp 16:17:15 jweiss_ [~user@cpe-069-134-063-238.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:17:51 -!- jweiss [~user@cpe-069-134-063-238.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:19:01 eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 16:19:15 n7vvx [~user@64.55.42.6] has joined #lisp 16:19:26 -!- n7vvx [~user@64.55.42.6] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:19:47 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.80.12] has joined #lisp 16:21:13 ec|iPad [~elliottca@cpe-066-056-234-188.ec.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:21:14 eli: it is a perfectly good and entire r4rs scheme! 16:21:14 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-195-168.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:21:30 eli: it's not my fault if your language needs to change every couple of years. 16:21:32 pjb: except for some of call/cc? 16:21:55 Was call/cc mandatory in r4rs? 16:22:12 tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:22:18 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 16:22:44 did call-cc exist at all in r4rs? 16:23:05 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl21-89-16.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 16:23:55 "CALL/CC isn't as general as in a true Scheme ... and it has only partial support for tail recursion and the number system, but beyond these limitations is scrupulously implements all of [r4rs]" 16:24:20 Good enough for me. 16:24:22 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 16:24:32 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 16:24:33 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:25:24 how does one ensure a macro in the top-level gets expanded when the file is loaded 16:25:49 nikodemus: yes, r4rs has c-w-c-c as an 'essential procedure' 16:25:50 (load "file.lisp") 16:26:20 umm, maybe something else then 16:26:52 (a) yes it certainly was there, (b) as the page that splittist pointed to says, (c) much worse is tha lack of tail calls, which is an absolutely fundamental concept in Schemes, (d) RnRS for any n is still a ridiculously toyish language, (e) you (pjb) will undoubtedly still say "good enough for me", but (f) coming from a CL programmer who only toys with Scheme this statement has no value. 16:26:54 Of course, you need to use that macro, by mentionning the symbol naming it in the operator position of an application. 16:27:25 eli: granted, but we're in #lisp. 16:27:48 homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-195-168.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:28:49 splittist: ok. is r3rs the last one without call-cc? 16:29:19 ah problem solved. something else entirely 16:30:04 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.193.18] has joined #lisp 16:31:10 nikodemus: r3 has it 16:31:13 pjb: Some would argue that #lisp is not #CL, but in any case note that I was careful to not say anything about CL. Note that the only thing I was talking about was the bad advice given to Sgeo to use pseudo scheme -- toys like that should not play a role in such a decision. (In the same way I never advocate Swindle as a factor in recommending Racket over CL.) 16:31:48 nikodemus: It was there in R3, and the concept in general is tightly related to proper tail calls, which is very fundamental to Scheme. 16:31:56 eli: the advice was to use Common Lisp. 16:32:00 r2, too 16:32:01 This is #lisp ! 16:32:16 (It being started as something that was supposed to model actors.) 16:32:32 Blah, I forgot some of the context of that conversation 16:32:42 "pseudo scheme"? What are you referring to? 16:32:59 srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:03 pjb: Yes, I heard you the first time, and replied to that; and I had nothing to say about the advice to use CL -- only about "use CL, you get both because you have pseudo scheme". 16:33:14 Oh, that 16:33:15 Sgeo: use Common Lisp. If you have to run some scheme code, you can do it from COmmon Lisp thanks to pseudo scheme which is a r4rs implementation in CL. 16:33:38 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.125.0] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:33:44 Sgeo: pseudo scheme is a proof of concept toy implementation of a limited Scheme. It's a bad idea to use it. 16:34:03 s/bad/very bad/ 16:34:10 I'd be very happy with a full call/cc 16:34:11 eli: ok. for some reason i thought continuations came in relatively late. 16:34:17 Sgeo: plus, there's absolutely no FFI between any implementation of CL and any implementation of Scheme, so if you want to mix both in a program, that's your only option (there's no CL implementation in scheme either). 16:34:50 nikodemus: I'll let you look at the FLUID stuff that's earlier than R2 (: 16:35:22 how can I silence *standard-output* 16:35:23 I want the environment of Common Lisp, with all the libraries and the LispBox and everyone using setf, but with Scheme's sensibly-named functions 16:35:27 Sgeo: Use Racket. If you ever miss some of the CL features, use Swindle. If you ever get to some need to ffi-interface to Common Lisp, Racket has that too. 16:35:32 pjb: BBN? 16:35:48 (let ((*standard-output* (make-broadcast-stream))) ...) 16:35:55 (pjb: that's how what I avoided saying looks like, justified by the fact that Racket is a lisp.) 16:35:57 splittist: url? 16:36:05 -!- ubii [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:36:05 I thought we solved this earlier, the answer to all questions was use CL, hehe 16:37:05 -!- Vutral [zJrmBLMvlZ@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:38:16 nikodemus: Do you know what actors are? 16:38:30 pnq [~nick@AC816A49.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 16:38:55 I really need to learn how to install emacs and things for emacs 16:39:05 Relying on lispboxen is not a winning strategy 16:39:39 Sgeo: windows? 16:39:45 Yes 16:39:48 -!- brandelune [~suzume@pl571.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: brandelune] 16:40:04 pjb: wikipedia, but in fact the implementation is in the ailab repo 16:40:05 LispBox is cool, but there's no LispBox for FUEL, Racket's emacs thing, etc etc 16:40:18 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:40:26 SgeoN1 [~AndChat@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:45 Playing Portal 2, want to be able to chat too 16:40:47 pjb: won't run on anything but the BBN Butterfly, of course (: 16:41:06 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 16:41:08 -!- ec|iPad [~elliottca@cpe-066-056-234-188.ec.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ec|iPad] 16:41:08 Sgeo: http://www.pchristensen.com/blog/articles/installing-sbcl-emacs-and-slime-on-windows-xp/ 16:41:09 -!- HET2 [~diman@217.171.129.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:41:16 I think that was the one I used 16:41:39 -!- SgeoN1 [~AndChat@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:41:53 SgeoN1 [~AndChat@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:00 Sgeo: You can IRC from steam? 16:42:14 I'm IRCing from my phone 16:42:49 SgeoN1: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/ELPA 16:43:19 Hmm 16:44:47 oh.. windows. I see no reason why elpa wouldn't work on gnuemacs on windows, but I've never tried it. 16:45:01 anyway, it only handles elisp packages. 16:45:06 you'd still need to set up lisp. 16:46:52 -!- pnq [~nick@AC816A49.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:47:12 Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:26 Bronsa [~brace@host120-178-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:48:19 rme [~rme@pool-70-105-90-16.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:20 tayloj [~tayloj@2620:0:2820:1400:225:ff:feec:9f30] has joined #lisp 16:48:53 galdor [galdor@def92-10-88-162-192-107.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:53 eli: i do -- but it's been ages since i read the old ai memos 16:49:19 -!- splittist [~splittist@112-183.1-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:49:36 but i'm pretty sure that at least the 1975 paper didn't have call-cc yet :) 16:51:43 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-103-171.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 16:52:34 -!- jdz [~jdz@87.14.110.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:55:20 (continuations very much so, but no call-cc) 16:55:40 ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has joined #lisp 16:55:54 ec|iPad [~elliottca@cpe-066-056-234-188.ec.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:56:41 -!- gor[e] [~svr@gw2.masterhost.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:56:56 lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-75-83-150-91.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:57:33 -!- jorgeu [~jorgeu@190.74.50.207] has quit [Quit: jorgeu] 16:59:09 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:59:47 nikodemus: Yeah, probably not `call/cc' itself, but the concept was definitely very thick in the air. 17:00:30 (IIRC, there's a whole bunch of weirdly futuristic stuff about parallelism and processes, which sounded more like a first step to `call/cc'.) 17:00:55 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 17:00:58 re. scheme: is there a consensus yet about implicit vs explicit phasing? 17:01:02 In any case, the more important point is that all of that work relies on TCO as a fundamental feature. 17:01:54 (last time i checked i got the impression that there was a minor religious war on the issue of how exactly phasing should be done) 17:02:00 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:02:04 nikodemus: Heh -- I'll avoid answering that since it's more off-topic, and because I'm very deep into one camp so anything I say about it is likely to be biased. 17:02:18 so no consensus yet :) 17:03:18 Not really, but note that Ikarus was the main implicit proponent, and it hasn't been developed in a while. 17:03:32 isn't racket implicit as well? 17:03:46 No, Racket is very much explicit. 17:04:00 Landr [~user@dD5770D33.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 17:04:35 i'm more familiar with the arguments of the implicit camp. what's a good paper to read for "why implicit is evil" position? 17:05:05 I don't think that there's a paper about it. 17:05:36 Both of the approaches usually keep phases separate, which is the more important point. 17:05:48 -!- ec|iPad [~elliottca@cpe-066-056-234-188.ec.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ec|iPad] 17:05:55 Implicit phases can lead to subtle suprises and subtle bugs, of course. 17:06:10 Explicit phases don't, but some people find it hard to specify them. 17:06:13 context: i have a partial port of psyntax to common lisp, and i'm hoping to find time to finish it this summer, but i'd like to understand the reasoning of the explicit phasing proponents better. 17:06:35 Are you aware of Andre's work? 17:06:57 let me check my notes. i have a crap memory for names 17:07:16 Andre van Tonder. 17:07:56 IIRC, he has an implementation that could be easily customized to implicit or explicit phases, and to multiple or single instantiations. 17:08:10 (Or at least one of the two.) 17:08:33 add^_^ [~add^_^@h215n1c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 17:08:33 no i haven't seen that 17:08:39 *nikodemus* googles 17:08:49 Look through the r6rs exchanges, it should be there. 17:09:38 (sorry to jump in -- implicit vs explicit phasing here refers to things like loading modules strictly for macro definitions?) 17:09:50 splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 17:10:01 got it 17:10:12 nikodemus: Also, you might want to talk to Andy Wingo (he's `wingo', usually on #scheme) -- he is currently playing with Guile's psyntax implementation, so he will probably be able to give you useful pointers easily. 17:10:35 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@h215n1c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:10:35 -!- add^_^ is now known as add^_ 17:11:47 sykopomp: No, both load modules separately for macros and for runtime (which is usually referred to as phase separation); the difference is that with explicit phases you have to import modules while explicitly saying which level you import them into, whereas an implicit system with figure it out as needed. 17:12:28 gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 17:12:29 (Given CL's stance on any kind of separation, asking CLers about it would be ... amusing.) 17:13:19 eval-when ftw? ;) 17:13:20 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-103-171.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:32 eli: phasing is imo a much more important development in macro-technology than hygiene 17:13:52 as any cl hackers knows, hygiene in itself is not a problem 17:14:12 sykopomp: Exactly -- either ftw, or for Fare's horror stories. 17:14:13 but phasing! oh boy, phasing solves separate compilation, which cl sucks at 17:14:33 nikodemus: They are very related. 17:14:52 sure: can't really have phasing without hygiene 17:14:57 which horror stories are you talking about - I have many. 17:15:17 Fare: the "eval-when considered harmful" is my usual example. 17:15:44 but hygiene in itself isn't that attractive to me. separate compilation is prize enough to be worth giving up traditional macros 17:16:23 nikodemus: You could get some of it, if you implement a macro expander that works strictly textually, expanding files and dumping the result. Phase separation is guaranteed, but you also lose some obvious things. 17:16:23 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 17:16:24 hygiene is like, separate compilation at a finer grain. 17:16:33 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:35 if done right, at least. 17:17:05 eli: that's not "something". that's losing most everything that matters 17:17:09 *Fare* is still hesitating between bringing PLT-style macros to CL, or a CL layer to Racket. 17:18:13 forget PLT macros. Bring in Kernel fexps. 17:18:35 eli: you mentioned subtle bugs associated with implicit phasing. care to expand on that, or do you have a reference? 17:18:51 sykopomp, that's another approach, I suppose. 17:18:52 argiopeweb [~elliot@155.31.174.238] has joined #lisp 17:19:13 Fare: hygiene + sexp manipulation. What more could you want? 17:19:40 sykopomp: fexprs don't actually solve the issue of separate compilation 17:19:46 sykopomp: peace of mind 17:20:17 or maybe they do, but it's not obvious to me that they would, at least 17:20:20 nikodemus: they meld it together with the issue of inlining code, though, no? 17:20:28 *Fare* replaces some unclean mix of shell and Makefile by lisp functions called by a perl wrapper... 17:20:31 nikodemus: It's not most everything that matters -- most macros create serializable code, so they're be perfectly usable for such an expander. 17:20:43 it's more that fexps take the macro issue and bring it into the world of good ol' functions. 17:21:05 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:21:09 sykopomp: kernel is mostly a toy. At least for now. 17:21:20 eli: the fexps are fantastic. 17:21:29 the rest of the language is meh. 17:21:29 *eli* mehs 17:21:30 eli: such macros can be replaced with non-macro alternatives with relatively little extra work / syntax 17:22:06 nikodemus: One subtle bug is when you get some module to instantiate twice, giving you two separate states instead of one; that doesn't happen in a single-instance system. 17:22:35 ah 17:22:41 A second subtlety is the fact that if some module has some toplevel side-effects and you require it nothing happens -- 17:22:54 the thing is that the system cannot instantiate it until it knows the phase. 17:22:55 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 17:23:37 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.193.18] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:23:43 So to get the side effects you have to refer to some binding, even if it's just ignored... (And one time Aziz replied to that with a "just don't write modules with toplevel side effects", or something similar.) 17:24:08 Krystof [~csr21@static-93.158.79.70.got.public.icomera.com] has joined #lisp 17:24:12 hm 17:24:28 -!- basho__ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-237-155.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:24:42 varjag [~eugene@162.163.9.46.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:26:04 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:26:53 soloma [~fesst@kiro.cybernet.su] has joined #lisp 17:27:09 Triplefault [~Mouse@adsl-72-152-232-129.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:08 gzmask [~ray@corwin.cat.uregina.ca] has joined #lisp 17:31:19 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:31:21 -!- argiopeweb [~elliot@155.31.174.238] has left #lisp 17:31:48 why LISP failed? Emacs. Sorry folks, I tried. Maybe I'll try hard in my next life. 17:31:52 -!- gzmask [~ray@corwin.cat.uregina.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 17:32:39 funny. I used vim for a year before switching 17:32:41 thanks for the novel analysis. 17:33:14 ec|iPad [~elliottca@cpe-066-056-234-188.ec.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:33:16 that's kind of why I discourage people from switching to emacs at the same time, though 17:33:17 udzinari [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 17:33:32 too many frustrations at once 17:34:30 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.193.18] has joined #lisp 17:36:48 -!- tayloj [~tayloj@2620:0:2820:1400:225:ff:feec:9f30] has left #lisp 17:38:46 -!- kephas [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-7-84.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:38:47 nowhere_man [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-24-249.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:41:06 -!- bubo [~bubo@88-117-11-223.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has left #lisp 17:41:28 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-186-167.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 17:41:31 -!- Krystof [~csr21@static-93.158.79.70.got.public.icomera.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:41:38 -!- fgump [~fgump__@188.74.82.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:41:44 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-220-2.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:45:59 mippymoe89 [~mippymoe8@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:39 -!- nowhere_man [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-24-249.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:47:04 nowhereman [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-63-151.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:48:26 Night-Hacks [~amir@95.38.52.69] has joined #lisp 17:49:35 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:49:41 hi 17:49:56 i wonder what does non-destructive push means in lisp culture ? 17:50:19 -!- parkq [~parkq@c-24-91-50-10.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:50:27 Night-Hacks: what does it mean anywhere else? 17:50:33 (that's the first time I've heard the term) 17:51:01 That term sounds like it wouldn't be relevant to singly-linked lists. 17:51:28 pclisp says destructive operations mean when you modify objects contents 17:51:43 you destroy that object 17:51:53 peter norvige uses such a term in 17:52:02 http://norvig.com/Lisp-retro.html 17:52:11 -!- ec|iPad [~elliottca@cpe-066-056-234-188.ec.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 17:52:34 ah. vectors. 17:53:45 right. pushing something destructively into a vector just means arranging element is at position 0 and what was in there before would start at position 1 17:54:05 non-destructive push means copying the vector and arranging stuff in teh copy above. 17:54:37 using singly-linked lists, you get non-destructive push without any copying or rearranging. 17:56:09 in java you cant do this, but in lisp its possible ... 17:56:14 so I believe this says that in java, you get only a single-head Vector object, while in lisp you can have as many heads pointing into a list as you want (they're just references to cons pairs) 17:56:37 anyone know how to tell emacs to copy stuff i input in repl to a .lisp file automatically :p 17:56:52 cbp: slime keeps a history of your REPL input 17:57:11 but it's probably better to develop in either the slime-scratch buffer or in a scratch file from the start (: 17:57:12 cbp: type in a buffer (e.g. *slime-scratch*) and C-x C-e or C-c C-c. 17:57:25 jdz [~jdz@host166-110-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:57:33 okies 17:58:35 antifuchs:but i still didnt got what Norvig wants to say 17:58:43 carlocci [~nes@93.37.213.96] has joined #lisp 17:59:16 he's comparing built-in types in different languages there, I guess. it's hard for me to follow the argument by just skimming it (: 18:00:13 so whats the point in lisp lists and java vectors 18:02:30 jmbr [~jmbr@17.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:03:33 I can't imagine the confusion of ideas which gives rise to that question.. 18:08:56 -!- fogus`lunch is now known as fogus` 18:09:02 Night-Hacks: there's no point in lisp lists. They're boring singly-linked lists. 18:09:23 Night-Hacks: the only thing special about them is that executable forms in lisp are composed of them 18:09:38 although that's more of a property of lisp than the lists 18:10:06 k 18:10:37 Night-Hacks: and we have a nice default syntax in lisp for describing lists. 18:10:54 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:11:36 pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.121.191] has joined #lisp 18:11:50 dlowe: agree, but just this article http://norvig.com/Lisp-retro.html in #Built-in Support for Lists confused me 18:12:35 Night-Hacks: uh, I'm confused too. I have no idea what he's trying to relate there 18:13:05 he's saying cons-lists are better for functional-style programming, because of tail-sharing. 18:13:42 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 18:15:50 kai__ [~kai@e179023195.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:15:50 -!- kai__ is now known as wetnosed 18:15:50 pkhuong: tail-sharing => sharing refrence of some cells of the list ? 18:16:18 yeah thats not possible in java 18:16:44 sure it is. Just define a cons class with two object references 18:17:05 but no, it's certainly not built in 18:17:12 it is, just not the default way to do things 18:17:28 seems like a trivial lisp advantage to me 18:17:46 (in java )but you cant give a refrence from 0 till 10 to one refrence and 10 t0 20 in other one 18:18:08 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:18:13 you can have a refrence of all of that object 18:18:32 jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.56] has joined #lisp 18:18:35 You can't in lisp, either. 18:18:53 i think we can 18:19:03 do tell 18:19:09 cant we with cdr 18:19:25 cdr is a single reference to the next cons in the list 18:19:29 (in a proper list) 18:19:36 or nil, signifying the end of the list 18:19:59 HET2 [~diman@nat65.mia.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:20:14 so if i pass cddddddddr of the lisp im passing refrences of the some part of the list 18:20:24 list* 18:20:37 you're just getting the cdr of the cdr, etc 18:21:25 but you're still dealing with discrete objects in memory 18:21:43 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-220-2.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:22:33 which is why it would be perfectly easy to do the same in java 18:22:46 just not comfortable because it doesn't have the nice syntax 18:23:16 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 18:24:14 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-225.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:25:00 dlowe: suppos passing (cdddr '(1 2 3 4 5 6)) to the other function 18:25:28 you have a refrence to third last elements 18:26:05 so how can we do this in java ? 18:26:16 same as in lisp. 18:26:22 bjoern1 [~bjoern@a89-183-119-27.net-htp.de] has joined #lisp 18:26:22 -!- bjoern1 [~bjoern@a89-183-119-27.net-htp.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:26:43 mylist = Cons(1, Cons(2, Cons(3, Cons(4, Cons(5, Cons(6, null)))))); 18:26:50 kephas [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-46-202.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:26:57 Cdr(Cdr(Cdr(mylist))) 18:27:16 mylist is not a function 18:27:32 my java is antique and rusty 18:27:40 no, it's a reference to a Cons object 18:27:52 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:27:53 Oh, I should read scrollback before being snarky. Sorry. 18:28:00 mylist.cdr().cdr().cdr(), if you're using a cons object, like ABCL does. 18:28:12 -!- SgeoN1 [~AndChat@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:28:12 ehu: yeah, I was just about to correct myself :) 18:28:17 :-) 18:28:41 SgeoN1 [~AndChat@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:48 -!- nowhereman [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-63-151.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:35:08 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:35:43 -!- longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:36:42 -!- Night-Hacks [~amir@95.38.52.69] has left #lisp 18:38:52 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-225.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:39:52 ssacc [~sa@188-195-200-95-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:40:42 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-248-241-85.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:01 hey there! i'm doing some bits of lisp again, but why does this http://paste.lisp.org/display/121986 not work? undefined-function... do i need some progn or something somewhere? (sorry, i forgot almost everything about CL...) 18:42:25 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93-87-156-179.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:42:34 Missing arguments, no? 18:42:39 parameters* 18:42:41 require is implementation dependant. 18:42:49 Use (ql:quickload ...) instead. 18:43:32 Your defun lacks a lambda-list. 18:43:35 Check the syntax: 18:43:39 clhs defun 18:44:04 ssacc: if you load that code from a file, you'll need to wrap the requires (or quickloads) in an (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) ...) 18:46:11 still "Condition of type UNDEFINED-FUNCTION" 18:46:33 paste your new code please? 18:46:37 your defun is missing the lambda-list 18:46:47 (defun run-test () ...) 18:47:59 http://paste.lisp.org/display/121986#1 18:49:09 HG`` [~HG@p5DC05C17.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:37 ssacc: why are you passing an argument to the function run-test? 18:50:11 which argument? the () ? 18:50:14 Yes. 18:50:15 yes 18:50:22 the call should be just (run-test) 18:51:01 for me it breaks in the call to save-image, as it doesn't like the '(300 200 3) 18:51:21 -!- Evious [~n_a@s64-180-62-209.bc.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:51:27 More exactly: Why are you passing a list when a vector is expected? 18:51:28 -!- HG` [~HG@p5DC05007.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:51:41 Which is clearly what the error message is asking. 18:52:02 well, a vector is...what exactly? a #(...) thingy or a #'(...) thingy? 18:52:17 (vector 300 200 3) 18:52:18 Evious [~n_a@s64-180-62-209.bc.hsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:00 no success... 18:53:56 did you ever read the documentation of save-image? 18:53:56 -!- jweiss_ [~user@cpe-069-134-063-238.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: bye] 18:54:57 -!- iori [~iori@110-133-45-54.rev.home.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:55:12 silenius [~silenus@f053007152.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:56:51 well, "(UNSIGNED-BYTE 8) array of dimension (* * 3)" should be (300 200 3), shouldn't it? 18:57:14 RTFM 18:57:33 where? on the website? it's crap...well, not satisfying... 18:57:39 In the source. 18:57:44 and the docstring is not much more helpful 18:57:49 The source! 18:58:00 are there any known issues with SBCL's :weakness :value hashtables GCing entries too aggressively? my flyweight table is dropping values that are being held elsewhere 18:58:11 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-204-121.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:59:21 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-204-121.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:23 ssacc: actually, just reading the name of the function should be enough documentation to solve your problem. 19:00:01 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-223-245.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:00:11 jweiss [~user@cpe-069-134-063-238.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:00:19 bloop_ [43aa6450@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.170.100.80] has joined #lisp 19:00:47 Phoodus: not that I know of. 19:00:48 pjb: it appears that i'm even to stupid for that! 19:01:23 (defun save-image (filename image format) ==> save-image takes as argument a file name, an image, and a format. Is (300 200 3) or #(300 200 3) an image? 19:01:53 As it's name implies, save-image takes an image. Try: (save-image "file" image :pnm) 19:02:04 (then correct the structure of your code). 19:02:17 pkhuong: definitely getting values dropped from teh table though. Gotta figure out what's up 19:03:13 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:03:37 nope, i in the version of cl-vector that i've just downloaded the function name isn't even save-image, but save-image/pnm without the local "format" parameter... 19:03:55 slyrus [~chatzilla@99-27-207-90.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:59 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-75-83-150-91.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 19:04:18 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 19:04:19 -!- cbp [~cesarbp@189.139.219.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:04:28 -!- Liera [~Liera@113.172.38.123] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:04:49 iori [~iori@110-133-45-54.rev.home.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 19:04:55 pjb: "(tehen correct the structure of your code)" - everything inside the let? 19:05:20 alama [~alama@182.113.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 19:05:33 Phoodus: are you sure you have the :weakness set right 19:05:47 ssacc: everything should be used in the lexical scope where it's defined, yes. 19:06:37 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:06:41 nikodemus: the key is a cons, the value is a structure built from the value in the cons, :weakness :value, and I hold onto the stuctures elsewhere 19:06:56 all accesses to the hashtable are behind a bt:with-lock-held 19:07:14 oh, and it's an equalp hashtable 19:07:33 xan_ [~xan@adsl-99-38-149-217.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:47 the only time the structures are created is when the value is not found in the hashtable, and that structure is then added 19:07:54 s/value/key/ 19:08:02 -!- pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has left #lisp 19:08:38 seems that i'm even too stupid for the simples hello-world program... http://paste.lisp.org/display/121986#2 - btw, does does "save-image (... :pnm)..." equal "save-image/pnm (...)...)" ? 19:08:54 -!- Areil [~user@113.172.38.123] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:09:42 sorry, the save-image/pnm was a stupid question as i see right now 19:10:21 At least, it's obvious from the source. 19:10:29 Phoodus: so :weakness is :value? and you basically have (or (gethash key ht) (setf (gethash key ht) (make-stuff)))? 19:10:30 yeah 19:11:10 still i can't get it working -> http://paste.lisp.org/display/121986#3 19:11:54 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@92.18.25.90] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:11:54 works for me. 19:12:35 MoALTz [~no@92.18.25.90] has joined #lisp 19:12:55 How do you know the structures are still reachable? 19:13:02 ssacc: If you add .pnm to the file name, then you will be able to open the file in emacs to check what's generated. 19:13:03 What happens if you push the structure to a global, e.g.? 19:13:21 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:13:34 still i get "The function COMMON-LISP-USER::RUN-TEST is undefined" 19:14:08 Check the *package* in the REPL. 19:14:58 And see what M-: (slime-current-package) RET gives from where you try to call run-test. 19:16:20 COMMON-LISP-USER of corse, just "globla namespace" i would say 19:16:38 Phoodus: if your replace the (setf ...) with (let* ((k (copy-list key)) (s (princ-to-string k))) (sb-ext:finalize k (lambda () (break "gone: ~S" s))) (setf (gethash k ht) (make-stuff))) you can see when the entries are being dropped 19:16:45 and somehow the file even is placed in /tmp for a short time... 19:16:47 strange 19:16:55 There's no global namespace in Common Lisp. Only the packages. 19:17:06 which should make reducing a test-case easier (or help pinpoint the issue in your own code) 19:17:13 ssacc: (at least, for symbols). 19:17:54 ssacc: try first by copy-and-paste to the REPL. 19:18:09 still i can't see why the run-test is still considered to be undefined... 19:18:39 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.193.18] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:18:54 Copy and paste the defun form before. 19:18:58 in ther repl it's working... 19:19:45 Now copy everything in a file, and type (load "test.lisp") in the REPL. 19:20:26 why doesn't it work with just going to the end of the buffer and C-c C-c ? 19:20:59 It works too. 19:21:09 slime is a strange IDE if i have to type (load ...) everytime when i want to run/compile some piece of code 19:21:15 pjb: no, it doesn't 19:21:33 C-c C-c compiles&loads the current toplevel form 19:21:34 ssacc: To avoid any confusion, I always put an (in-package ...) form at the beginning of the file. 19:21:45 C-c C-k compiles&loads the buffer's file 19:22:11 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-48-230.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:22:20 pjb: so for me that would be (in-package first-test) ? filename: first-test.lisp... 19:22:25 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-48-230.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has left #lisp 19:22:54 -!- SgeoN1 [~AndChat@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:22:56 now it works... 19:22:56 Well, you'd have to define a package first. 19:23:05 btw, emacs can display .pnm files? how? 19:23:08 So: (defpackage "FIRST-TEST" (:use "CL")) (in-package "FIRST-TEST") 19:23:18 C-x C-f testfile.pnm RET 19:23:41 -!- HET2 [~diman@nat65.mia.three.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:25:23 oh, well, not in the terminal, oviously! ;) 19:25:54 Wrong terminal. Try Tek 4041. 19:26:12 (xterm has an option to switch to it ;-) ) 19:26:25 (But I don't suppose emacs can deal with it, it'd be too good.) 19:27:02 c_arenz [~arenz@p5B2CCCA6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:33 nikodemus: I think the hashtable isn't causing the issue. The print-unreadable-object addresses were changing, but they were the same object instances just moved because of the GC 19:27:46 TEK 4041 ? sorry, never heard of that one - is there a Debian package? 19:27:53 the real bug we're hitting appears to be elsewhere 19:28:00 + how to switch to it from xterm? 19:28:00 ssacc: it's standard in xterm. 19:28:39 Shift-middle-click on xterm and select "Show Tek Window" menu item. 19:28:48 ssacc: have you solved the problem with save-image? Actually save-image :pnm is simply a wrapper for save-image/pnm (it was supposed to be extended with other image type at the time) 19:29:07 cods: yeah, solved, thanks 19:29:23 cods: "it was supposed to be..." - as always with any project ;) 19:29:37 including my own projs, ofc 19:31:40 No, even with export TERM=tek4105, emacs doesn't deal properly with it. :-( 19:33:25 how would i use the Tek to show the .pnm from the command line? 19:33:41 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:33:47 You would have to encode it into Tek control codes. 19:33:56 It's rather simple, but I don't have the details in mind. 19:34:19 There are probably programs to display images on tek terminals available out there. 19:34:56 But the real question is why you're using a terminal? Why not using emacs in X? 19:35:25 i just keep on checking it using gthumb... though cl-vectors suggestst something called xv to be able to use show-image... 19:35:28 never heard fo it 19:35:54 Yes, xv is a nice program. (But not free software, just gratis). 19:36:08 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@vpnsh0033.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 19:36:26 But if you run emacs in X, it can display images, PDFs, etc. 19:36:26 I used to use xv. 19:36:41 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host120-178-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:37:03 i know, i just like using in terminal sometimes in combination with multiplexers... 19:37:07 makes life easier 19:37:31 ChibaPet: worth breaking with FOSS? 19:37:35 ssacc: use ratpoison, it feels just like screen. 19:37:46 Oh, it's ancient now. There are other tools I use now. 19:37:48 ssacc: well, at least it's open source. 19:37:57 Not FOSS, just OSS. 19:38:08 pjb: well, actually i came back to openbox (after awesome) for it's better multi-head support 19:38:41 Salamander: you define your own viewer (as long as it can take the image filename as its single argument) 19:38:49 (I plan to go on to stumpwm since it's written in Common Lisp) 19:38:55 you can* 19:39:19 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:39:21 Salamander: sorry, wrong nick 19:39:29 pjb: it was C once, right? 19:39:38 Not AFAIK. 19:39:44 ratpoison is written in C. 19:39:45 ssacc: see above. You can use your own viewer by overriding *external-viewer* 19:40:08 -!- rme [rme@clozure-601E2FD4.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 19:40:21 pjb: ah, that was the one, right...well sometimes stumpwm is buggy, and floating support is not particularly "easy" when you're not used to it 19:40:40 cods: yeah, i use gthumb for that ;9 19:40:42 ;) 19:40:45 -!- alama [~alama@182.113.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Quit: alama] 19:41:29 *sykopomp* went back to xmonad after having a lengthy affair with stump. 19:41:31 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-105-90-16.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:42:23 (openbox + pytile is recommendable) 19:42:29 *antoszka* decided to stay with dwm after a similar eposide. 19:42:52 (though not very lengthy) 19:44:49 hmmm.... KDE->GNOME->KDE->FVWM-Crystal->XMonad here ;-) 19:45:55 *ssacc* feels at home with all those wm freaks in here... ;) 19:49:39 rme [~rme@pool-70-104-116-251.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:01 nah, mine just showcases growing slowness of DEs 19:50:40 :) 19:50:51 (there was IceWM somewhere there too, I think) 19:54:11 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-223-245.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:54:40 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-195-168.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:02:24 Is there a good description of what DWIM actually did anywhere? 20:02:52 orivej [~orivej@host-16-152-66-217.spbmts.ru] has joined #lisp 20:03:53 -!- iori [~iori@110-133-45-54.rev.home.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:04:38 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:04:45 splittist: depends where 20:05:06 -!- sonnym1 [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:05:26 my experiences are related to non-lisp use, but from a system that often had lisp on it (TOPS-20, still similar in VMS' DCL) 20:06:16 -!- fogus` is now known as fogus`away 20:07:27 splittist: i think tha Etc. part here pretty much describes it ;) http://blogs.technet.com/cfs-filesystemfile.ashx/__key/communityserver-blogs-components-weblogfiles/00-00-00-85-24-metablogapi/8787.Content_2D00_Tracks_5F00_65D555A5.gif 20:07:37 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A66ED.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:09:29 EarlGray [~paranoid@ANice-252-1-32-150.w82-122.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:09:44 I was thinking of Interlisp. This is interesting: http://larry.masinter.net/interlisp-ieee.pdf (WARNING PDF) 20:09:49 -!- HG`` [~HG@p5DC05C17.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:11:19 >2011 >browser still can't render pdf natively 20:11:47 -!- Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@1807ds2-noe.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:12:07 HET2 [~diman@nat65.mia.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:12:18 It seems to include (sensible) default arguments and the ability to accept atoms or lists (or, I guess, what CL would call designators) in the concept. I do kind of like the idea of the editor automatically correcting my spelling (with some telltale wiggly underline) though (: 20:12:44 ldh [~ldh@static-217-37.vpn.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 20:12:46 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-103-171.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:13:04 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-103-171.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:35 -!- Joreji [~thomas@73-222.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:16:02 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c72ce0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:26 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 20:17:31 Answering my own question: http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/decuslib20-01/01/decus/20-0004/17lisp.tty 20:19:59 cods: so you're familiar with cl-vector? 20:21:03 -!- hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:21:50 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-103-171.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:22:08 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-103-171.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:25 splittist: http://www.amazon.com/Interactive-Programming-Environments-David-Barstow/dp/0070038856 20:22:49 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 20:23:35 not DWIM specifically, but a bunch of related ideas 20:24:56 hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:03 is pnm -> svg converstion possible? 20:25:10 GrayMagiker [~steve@c-174-56-26-27.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:21 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-103-171.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:26:54 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@p5B2CCCA6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:26:59 -!- hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:27:00 ssacc: the process is called tracing. but I don't know of any lisp programs that do it 20:27:12 I think SVG supports bitmaps, not sure 20:27:46 maybe via any other format, so pnm -> ... -> svg ? 20:28:12 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:28:14 nikodemus: should I buy that book for $3.51? 20:28:35 ssacc: svg is a vector format. pnm is a bitmap format. 20:28:52 or 1c (+ 3.99 shipping) 20:28:52 you're not going to be able to find an easy route to convert between them 20:29:18 sure 20:29:42 (it's easy to convert svg to pnm, but not the other way around) 20:29:45 hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:51 rme: it's a book! it costs little! of course you should buy it! :) 20:30:05 ah, I think I was thinking of OpenVG having bitmap support; I don't think SVG does 20:30:12 which is the "best" CL svg lib? 20:30:43 vecto, of course. 20:30:46 *rme* buys it 20:30:48 *sykopomp* has never actually used it. 20:30:52 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Quit: eugu] 20:31:16 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.149] has joined #lisp 20:31:56 vecto doesn't really read svg. it's more of a vector graphics primitives -> bitmap file thing 20:32:32 i mean a library that is able to actually produce reusable svgs 20:32:33 that is, you can make a pnm file from svg directives (provided you write a parser) 20:32:54 you can use cxml to produce the xml from a DOM 20:32:59 but I don't know if that helps any 20:33:01 -!- jweiss [~user@cpe-069-134-063-238.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:33:17 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 20:33:26 *splittist* wonders how many of the stores listing the book actually have it 20:35:07 Now, if they'd just have http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Language-Dialect-Lisp/dp/013881905X for $3.51. (I'm not $100 curious about a t book.) 20:35:09 it's has amusing pieces of lisp history 20:35:13 it, even 20:35:38 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.103.171] has joined #lisp 20:35:38 -!- EarlGray [~paranoid@ANice-252-1-32-150.w82-122.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20:35:43 <_3b> i think there is an svg parser on lisppaste somewhere 20:35:54 EarlGray [~paranoid@ANice-252-1-32-150.w82-122.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:36:14 i don't have my copy handy, so i can't quote, but there's a choice bit along the lines of "interlisp is now insanely popular: we estimate over 300 users on four separate sites in total" 20:36:58 <_3b> minion: paste 78719 20:36:58 Paste number 78719: "SVG -> vecto" by hefner in #lisp. http://paste.lisp.org/display/78719 20:38:35 people, please give me a short advice how to use asdf install to get vecto, for example 20:38:42 i have never used it, shame on me 20:38:54 <_3b> use quicklisp instead of asdf-install 20:39:21 use quicklisp instead of asdf-install 20:39:56 still beta? 20:40:38 asdf-install never even got to alpha 20:40:39 -!- billitch [~billitch@78.251.156.214] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:41:01 quicklisp has been preferable to asdf-install since day one 20:41:14 since day zero! 20:41:26 or even day minus 35. 20:41:30 hm, actually ... 20:41:47 how do i use it? like apt-get/rpm/... ? 20:42:11 quicklisp.org has a walkthrough 20:42:43 http://blog.quicklisp.org/ has a screencast 20:43:17 aperturefever [20164@ninthfloor.org] has joined #lisp 20:43:40 i should make sbcl's asdf-install (1) check for existence of quicklisp (2) offer to download it if it's not installed yet 20:44:13 then we only need to wait 2 years for everyone to update sbcl, and asdf-install will finally be history :) 20:44:19 ssacc: I'm the author of cl-vectors. But I don't have updated it (nor even used it) for a while. 20:45:14 cods: interesting! i assume it was a lot of work!? 20:45:21 nikodemus: I took asdf-install out of ccl. 20:45:52 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:46:28 nikodemus: debian is bound to release an update sooner or later (-: 20:47:08 *nikodemus* approves 20:47:25 ssacc: not that much. I made it in few weeks. But it was interesting to make (to learn more about vectorial and antialiasing stuff) 20:48:01 ceders [~ceders@adsl-69-231-121-141.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:24 cods: great work! 20:48:41 ssacc: thanks :) 20:49:27 Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:49:30 nikodemus: go for it ;) 20:49:53 I guess I'm crazy for running all the latest and greatest. 20:52:35 -!- ceders [~ceders@adsl-69-231-121-141.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:56:24 -!- ldh [~ldh@static-217-37.vpn.wisc.edu] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 21:01:31 -!- ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:06:25 -!- turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:06:50 -!- pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.121.191] has left #lisp 21:07:38 -!- EarlGray [~paranoid@ANice-252-1-32-150.w82-122.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 21:07:53 EarlGray [~paranoid@ANice-252-1-32-150.w82-122.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:10:23 stupid newbie question, but i feel free to ask it anyway: what does the # actually do in "...:use #:cl #:something..." ? 21:10:33 and the ":" is nothing more than a convention? 21:10:49 <_3b> # is a dispatching macro character in teh default readtable 21:10:53 #: makes an uninterned symbol 21:10:56 : makes a keyword 21:11:28 the #: is there so users of the package don't end up with tons of useless keywords; it's just a convention. 21:11:28 <_3b> in this case, it dispatches on :, and reads a symbol without interning it 21:11:57 _3b: sorry, i don't get you 21:11:59 for package-names, it is pretty pointless to use an uninterned symbol there, though 21:11:59 <_3b> (it is the same # as in #' and #( and #x ) 21:12:10 (you can specify packages using strings, too, but some people like inverted readtable behaviors, so #: gives you a symbol that is right most of the time) 21:12:24 nikodemus: sure (: 21:12:30 nikodemus: people still do it, though : 21:12:33 but for (:export ...bazillion-symbols...) #:foo is good 21:13:03 turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:13:49 i'm not sure what a "uninterned symbol" really is 21:14:34 minion: tell ssacc about pcl-book 21:14:35 ssacc: direct your attention towards pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 21:14:53 People are just looking for ways not to type "FOO". 21:15:16 and humoring acl mlisp users :) 21:18:10 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:19:27 antifuchs: have you given my slime-indentation branch a try? (sorry if i keep pimping it, but i'm looking for more input) 21:19:41 -!- jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.56] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:19:54 haven't had much time to do so yet, sorry 21:20:03 would like to try it though! (: 21:20:20 when you do, make notes and complain a lot! 21:20:30 ok (-: 21:20:41 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@vpnsh0033.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:20:44 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 21:20:46 initial complaint: can you incorporate gabor's if* stuff? (-; 21:20:55 so far i've been able to fix all misindentations i've come across since starting to work on it 21:21:38 antifuchs: sure 21:22:27 do you have a link handy? 21:24:40 gabor mailed the list under the subject "Indent IF*". I'll get the link. 21:25:07 http://common-lisp.net/pipermail/slime-devel/2011-January/017915.html is it 21:25:22 got it 21:25:29 sweet 21:26:56 if i'm using an external library in a dir "external-lib" and i want to use the package "external-package" from it, how do i tell this fact "(defmacro...:use...)" ? 21:27:22 and maybe even several subdirs...? 21:27:33 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:27:39 -!- jdz [~jdz@host166-110-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:27:57 (i should really read pcl first, i guess) 21:28:10 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 21:28:57 -!- Triplefault [~Mouse@adsl-72-152-232-129.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:30:23 <_3b> you load libraries with asdf, 'package's are created when the code is loaded 21:31:22 urandom__ [~user@p548A64EF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:38 <_3b> and yes, reading a book sounds like a good idea :) 21:32:39 so if i have my own project files in /path/to/project/ and there is also the dir external-project/ in /path/to/project/, then i can't just use (defpackage ... :use ...) to tell the interpreter that it should search in external-project/ for the code? 21:32:45 Phantom_Hoover [~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486] has joined #lisp 21:33:01 Why hasn't SBCL been ported to Windows? 21:33:05 (actually i _read_ too much of Graham's On Lisp instead of _coding_...) 21:33:15 Is there some fundamental architectural problem. 21:33:21 <_3b> in CL, a 'package' is just a mapping of strings to symbols, sort of like a 'namespace' in some languages 21:33:33 ssacc, I was under the impression that Peter Graham is... not a particularly sane man. 21:33:35 Posterdati: it's a shame your system doesn't have an asdf file. 21:33:38 <_3b> it has absolutely nothing to do with files, directories, or anything else aside from mapping names to symbols 21:33:45 then quicklisp could quickload it. 21:33:46 Phantom_Hoover: Paul... 21:34:15 onizu [kvirc@14.97.40.254] has joined #lisp 21:34:31 <_3b> Phantom_Hoover: a. it has, b. because you didn't pay anyone to do it yet, or do it yourself :) 21:35:32 ssacc, same difference. 21:35:42 Fade: what? 21:35:49 Phantom_Hoover: why not ... "sane" ? 21:36:14 _3b, so it's just because of the difficulty of going from Unix-like to Windows? 21:36:14 I was just looking at your circuit solver. 21:36:28 <_3b> Phantom_Hoover: more a lack of people who care 21:36:29 Fade: then? :) 21:36:37 then, what? :) 21:36:40 ssacc, bad word choice; I've heard that his opinions are either stupid or obvious. 21:36:51 Fade: no asd file? 21:37:00 then I immediately wished it had an asd file. :) 21:37:01 Phantom_Hoover: ? 21:37:14 Fade: ah ok, I'll provide one 21:37:15 he fiddles a lot with macros, i think, imho 21:37:16 <_3b> Phantom_Hoover: for a while someone cared, so there was an initial port with some limitations... that person stopped caring, and it stopped progressing... no someone else cares, so it progresses again 21:37:46 ssacc, I don't know, that's just what I heard. 21:38:15 His disagreement hierarchy backs it up, though, since it falls into the "obvious" category. 21:38:19 <_3b> PG's lisp style doesn't match #lisp's style, and arguably doesn't make good use of CL's features 21:38:39 -!- Hun` [~hun@95-90-10-28-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:39:06 his stuff is only mildly idiosyncratic as compared to, say, hungarian lisp. :) 21:39:10 Mr. Startup? 21:39:40 On Lisp is still the best pedagogical treatment of macros I've come across. 21:40:02 'course, we're probably about to fall into the Let Over Lambda hole 21:41:29 Phantom_Hoover: It's not very decent to say that someone is insane or that his opinions are stupid or obvious based on hearsay. 21:41:37 -!- onizu [kvirc@14.97.40.254] has quit [Quit: KVIrc - http://www.kvirc.net/] 21:41:50 rme, I didn't say that, I said I'd heard that. 21:42:54 "I was under the impression that..." to be precise :-P 21:43:10 <_3b> Phantom_Hoover: so you wouldn't mind if i said i'd 'heard' bad things about you? :p 21:43:20 so this http://paste.lisp.org/display/121990 is in a file which is in a dir first-project/ and vecto-1.4.3 is a dir which also lies in first-project/ and inside vecto-1.4.3/ there is vecto.lisp which i would like to use, how do i do this correctly with (defmacro... :use...) ? 21:43:33 <_3b> Phantom_Hoover: and i think http://www.siftsoft.com/inprogress/forknews.html has info on the current sbcl/windows work 21:44:19 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-186-167.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:44:43 <_3b> ssacc: well, first you need to read what you type, defmacro has nothing to do with package or systems 21:45:03 antifuchs: wish granted: https://github.com/nikodemus/Slime/commits/slime-indentation/ 21:45:08 *defpackage*, of course 21:45:08 <_3b> ssacc: second, easiest solution would be to install and load vecto with quicklisp 21:45:17 if*, that is 21:45:34 Fade: look at it now :) 21:45:34 <_3b> ssacc: right, just that you've made that mistake a few times already :) 21:45:43 isn't it possible w/o quicklisp/asdf/... - sounds strange that CL can't do it on its own 21:45:45 onizu [kvirc@14.97.40.254] has joined #lisp 21:45:51 <_3b> minion: tell ssacc about xach-asdf 21:45:51 ssacc: please look at xach-asdf: Xach's article "Making a small Common Lisp project" can be found at http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html 21:46:05 -!- HET2 [~diman@nat65.mia.three.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:46:13 <_3b> ssacc: anything is possible, you could do it without lisp too if you didn't mind compiling converting to binary by hand :p 21:46:14 _3b: (well, paste.lisp.org isn't what i use everyday...) 21:46:53 <_3b> do you compile C code by hand too, without make? 21:47:12 -!- silenius [~silenus@f053007152.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:47:17 for quick-and-dirty testing, just open it up in slime and load it in 21:47:28 <_3b> (asdf is sort of comparable to make, it handles dependencies between files/projects/libraries, etc) 21:47:32 but yes, you do want to get a project definition set up 21:48:20 <_3b> and asdf and i think quicklisp are implemented in CL, basically just automating what we would have to tell you to do by hand 21:48:28 so there is no similar way to Java's formidable (:P) Package.Name.Structure.java ? 21:48:39 Posterdati: :) 21:48:44 you know that only works if the classpaths are set up 21:48:52 like :use #:vecto-1.4.3:vecto ? 21:48:53 and only if you've already compiled to .class files 21:48:55 <_3b> not built it, no 21:48:56 nikodemus: yayyyyy 21:49:03 nikodemus: now I'll /have/ to switch to it (-: 21:49:05 (nicely done) (: 21:49:10 will give it a shot tomorrow 21:49:15 excellent 21:49:27 ssacc: package use works, just like java, if you've already compiled & loaded it 21:49:35 <_3b> feel free to read the source of quicklisp and asdf to see what specific steps you would do 21:49:50 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-130-167.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover [~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486] has left #lisp 21:49:52 *_3b* doesn't feel like going into detail when the details have already been automated 21:49:53 the java IDEs do this for you automatically. The lisp helpers like asdf & quicklisp also do this sort of thing for you 21:50:33 (and even so, it's always a pain to refer to external code inside Eclipse et al when setting up your project) 21:50:39 ---> zzzz 21:52:53 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 21:53:12 _3b: isn't that the definition of programming? abstraction ad absurdum? ;) 21:53:13 HET2 [~diman@217.171.129.80] has joined #lisp 21:53:40 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@31.141.49.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:55:23 Posterdati: is your intention to have two circuit_solver*.lisp files? 21:55:24 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:55:50 no 21:55:58 18 is more recent 21:57:11 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:58:31 muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:02 you've named your files with undersores and use hyphens in the asdf descriptions. 21:59:28 paul0 [~user@187.112.71.240] has joined #lisp 21:59:40 -!- GrayMagiker [~steve@c-174-56-26-27.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:00:35 anybody using AutoLisp? 22:00:36 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl21-89-16.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 22:01:39 onizu: not here 22:01:57 :/ 22:02:51 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-130-167.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 22:02:53 minion: ok, the article tells me about asdf, but ppl in here recommend using quicklisp instead, is there a good tutorial on that, too? 22:02:54 i don't agree - ok the article tells you about asdf but ppl in here recommend using quicklisp instead isn't there a good tutorial on that too 22:03:50 ssacc: have you looked at the documentation at http://beta.quicklisp.org/ ? 22:04:25 i should start using google before asking irc, sorry 22:05:16 does QL use asdf for defining & loading systems, or does it do its own thing? 22:06:56 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 22:06:56 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 22:06:56 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 22:07:09 -!- soloma [~fesst@kiro.cybernet.su] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:07:20 -!- Davidbrcz_ [~david@ANantes-151-1-199-214.w2-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:09:04 Phoodus: it uses ASDF 22:10:35 -!- beach [~user@116.118.8.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:13:54 sellout- [~Adium@nc-71-48-23-197.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:01 -!- HET2 [~diman@217.171.129.80] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:16:03 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 22:16:25 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@99-27-207-90.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:17:38 ok, now i have quicklisp installed and vecto installed via quicklisp, but when i try to evaluate this http://paste.lisp.org/display/121990 i still get "The name "VECTO" does not designate any package." 22:19:18 -!- onizu [kvirc@14.97.40.254] has quit [Quit: KVIrc - http://www.kvirc.net/] 22:19:33 <_3b> "VECTO" or "VECTO-1.4.3"? 22:19:34 ssacc: Are you sure that's the code you loaded? And that's the error message you got? 22:19:45 *VECTO*, sorry 22:20:18 <_3b> since the pasted code asks for "VECTO-1.4.3", which sounds more like the name of a directory, but wouldn't cause that error 22:20:58 http://paste.lisp.org/display/121990#1 22:21:38 <_3b> possibly you need to load vecto, if you restarted th elisp since you installed vecto 22:21:43 ssacc: If you get the message "The name "VECTO" does not designate..." that means you have not loaded vecto into CL when evaluating the code. 22:23:35 specifically, your defpackage :use means that vecto needs to be loaded before your file containing the defpackage; lisp has ordering dependencies on loading files 22:24:19 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-5-187.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:24:29 nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has joined #lisp 22:24:32 -!- nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has quit [Changing host] 22:24:32 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 22:24:45 so first (require ...) or what? 22:24:58 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 22:25:04 or use quicklisp to load it, since you have it now 22:25:15 <_3b> Xach: does zpb-ttf (or some other lib) have any facility to try to load a font even if i don't know a specific path? (some system font that should always exist on current OS or whatever) 22:25:19 (ql:load ...)? 22:25:24 *Phoodus* doesn't have QL, having a large codebase based on loader scripts built on plain asdf 22:25:26 _3b: not that i know of 22:25:33 Fade: look at it now! 22:25:43 ssacc: that would be nice, but no. (ql:quickload ...) 22:25:51 (ql:quickload ...) 22:25:55 <_3b> Xach: ok, didn't see one, but thought i would check to make sure :) 22:25:57 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:26:02 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c72ce0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:26:06 sorry, i should read teh web before asking irc 22:26:08 ssacc: Did you write an .asd for your project? If so, you could use (ql:quickload "myproject") 22:26:24 ssacc: or just use tab-completion to see what's there 22:26:25 what's teh .asd for? 22:26:32 -!- sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:26:33 can't i just leave it out with quickload? 22:26:52 <_3b> ssacc: the .asd is to specify dependencies like vecto to make sure they are loaded before they are needed 22:27:02 <_3b> quicklisp loads things using asdf 22:27:31 which is the standard norm for Common Lisp? ANSI? ISO? 22:27:37 Posterdati: in the asd file you have ":components ((:file "circuit-solver")) 22:27:46 well, without the leading double quote. 22:27:57 i'm still unsure how to handle the whole thing correctly, do i still need to include all the vecto files in my project's directory to load them or is this all handled by quicklisp now? 22:27:59 but there's no such file in the directory. 22:28:01 seems not to work so rar 22:28:03 *far* 22:28:11 ssacc: it helps with automating loading things that are required, and allowing your project to be a requirement of something else easily. 22:28:23 <_3b> ssacc: your project directory should only have files for that project, including a .asd file 22:28:27 mornfall [~mornfall@anna2.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 22:28:30 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@anna2.fi.muni.cz] has quit [Changing host] 22:28:30 mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has joined #lisp 22:28:34 <_3b> ssacc: that .asd file should specify a dependency on vecto 22:28:55 Posterdati: The hyperspec is a derivative of the ANSI spec 22:28:57 <_3b> ssacc: when you load the .asd for your project, asdf will handle loading vecto automatically, so you don't get that 'package not found' error 22:28:57 Fade: I copied and modified the cl-store.asd 22:29:19 Phoodus: and the Common Lisp? 22:29:23 <_3b> ssacc: if you load your .asd through quicklisp, it will also take care of downloading any dependencies it knows about that aren't installed yet 22:29:33 Posterdati: huh? 22:29:36 the structure of the asd file is fine... but you're trying to load a file "circuit-solver.lisp" that doesn't exist in the repository. 22:29:44 <_3b> (at least i think it does that) 22:29:52 perhaps rename circuit_solver_18.lisp to circuit-solver.lisp? 22:30:05 i'd send a patch, but I can't remember how to make svn work. :) 22:30:23 so just including all required files in one dir and loading them in every file in which they are needed (Emacs like) would make more sense with distribution in mind 22:30:26 ? 22:30:41 No. 22:30:58 <_3b> the .asd says what to load 22:31:03 Just write an asf file, ql will do the loading for you. 22:31:03 <_3b> and in what order 22:31:04 Phoodus: I mean I need the ANSI document :) 22:31:05 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:31:14 but this approach means that quicklisp is required on every target system (+ the actual third party libs) 22:31:21 <_3b> no, just asdf 22:31:30 HET2 [~diman@nat65.mia.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:31:57 to sum it up: i don't need quickload for my project, only asdf 22:31:59 sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has joined #lisp 22:32:02 <_3b> which is included in many lisp implementations, and installed by hand (or by quicklisp) by a large fraction of users of others 22:32:05 and quickload is more like apt-get/rpm/... 22:32:10 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@h215n1c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Quit: add^_] 22:32:12 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-150-156.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:15 Phoodus: which number? 22:32:15 ssacc: ql is handy, to download the dependencies. 22:32:16 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-150-156.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:32:20 <_3b> right, quicklisp is just a convenience for installing the libraries used by your project 22:32:23 pjb: that 22:32:29 pjb: 's what i mean 22:32:30 Posterdati: http://webstore.ansi.org/RecordDetail.aspx?sku=ANSI+INCITS+226-1994+%28R2004%29 22:33:00 --- so no "ql: ..." in my project at all --- 22:33:08 <_3b> right 22:33:51 ssacc: I'd like to add more tools to Quicklisp to make it easier to "export" a set of libraries in a way that makes them easy to load without Quicklisp. Sort of a "source delivery" kind of thing. 22:34:42 Phoodus: ok thanks 22:34:43 and asd files should look like this one? http://pastebin.com/02Ku6B5n 22:34:59 Yes. 22:35:08 *_3b* would use :serial t rather than explicit per-file dependencies, but yes 22:35:54 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-233-111.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 22:35:59 Well, if your dependencies are not serial... 22:36:14 what is :export for? 22:36:37 <_3b> more a case of having trouble keeping them correct even with :serial t, trying to manage explicit deps by hand would be an even worse idea 22:36:43 ssacc: it affects how you can refer to symbols. 22:36:48 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-150-156.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:53 Xach: wut? 22:36:56 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 22:37:06 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-233-111.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 22:37:10 it has to do with packages and such 22:37:11 <_3b> (and not generally needing the ability to compile in parallel, which is the only good reason i can see to have them explicit) 22:37:12 dark juju 22:37:37 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-233-111.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 22:37:40 programming is no dark juju 22:37:46 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-233-111.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 22:37:47 it's bright sunshine! 22:37:57 <_3b> ssacc: when you did :use #:vecto, it gave you access to all of the symbols :exported from the vecto package 22:38:36 <_3b> if they were not exported, you would have to specify the package when you used them from other packages 22:38:59 basically: i don't need that? - or do i have to 'export' every symbol in vecto manually? 22:39:07 <_3b> more generally, :export specifies which symbols are part of the public API defined by the package 22:39:31 <_3b> no, the vecto package definition needs to do that 22:39:38 oh, ah, it is like "from x import *"... instead of "path.to.bla"...! 22:39:39 <_3b> you export things you want visible from your package 22:39:54 <_3b> possibly 22:40:14 still #this:syntax is a good idea, i think, so i don't loose track... 22:40:24 <_3b> except without the # 22:40:42 "Compilation finished" - great! 22:40:59 and i've learned a lot about package management in lisp so far, thanks for that! 22:41:31 <_3b> foom:bar referes to a symbol named "BAR" exported from the package named "FOO" (assuming default reader case settings) 22:41:39 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@145.29.195-77.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:41:47 (well, but On Lisp doesn't really begin with such simple tasks and dives directly into macros and such, so maybe PCL is something that i should have a look at, too) 22:41:49 <_3b> or rather foo:bar, if my irc client stops expanding user names when it shouldn't :/ 22:42:14 <_3b> if bar were not exported, you would have to use foo::bar to access it, 22:42:15 just the phrase "export" was unevident to me 22:42:56 cant i just say ":export *everything*" or something like that? 22:43:06 <_3b> not really, and you wouldn't want to anyway 22:43:42 if i change veco later on (bad example), then i would have to update the .asd file everytime 22:43:43 <_3b> for example you don't want FILE or FONT exported from first-project, since they are just local variables 22:43:48 that's just silly 22:44:14 <_3b> :export goes in defpackage, which doesn't go in .asd 22:44:32 and i can't imagine that the error messages are so evident that i will be able to trace back the fact that the .asd is outdated 22:44:47 _3b: it's in .asd, atm 22:44:51 and it works well 22:45:02 <_3b> lots of bad idea seem to work well :) 22:45:14 ssacc: Why would you put your exports in the asdf file? 22:45:39 if you have your defpackage with a :use in your .asd file, it will fail if you load clean 22:45:50 since the dependent package will not exist in order to be :use'd 22:46:00 so :use goes into .asd and :export into the foobar.lisp? 22:46:07 <_3b> no 22:46:20 ssacc: most people have a package.lisp file with the defpackage 22:46:21 <_3b> :use and :export are just options to defpackage 22:46:40 <_3b> defpackage is what goes in the .lisp file, and doesn't go in .asd 22:46:51 so how does a typical .asd look like? paste 22:46:59 <_3b> like the one you pasted earlier 22:47:16 amb007 [~a_bakic@145.29.195.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:20 so defpackage is in .asd including :export and not in any other .lisp file? 22:47:27 <_3b> (defsystem foo :depends-on (...) :components ...) 22:47:52 <_3b> defpackage frequently goes in its own file package.lisp, that is loaded before the other .lisp files 22:48:03 <_3b> or if you only have 1 .lisp file, it can go there 22:48:03 -!- varjag [~eugene@162.163.9.46.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:48:23 could you please a typical .asd and a typical package.lisp? 22:48:49 could you please *paste* a typical .asd and a typical package.lisp? 22:48:54 typical .asd: (defsystem ...), typical package.lisp: (defpackage ...) 22:49:07 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:49:15 ssacc: http://xach.livejournal.com/278047.html has something I wrote on the topic a while ago. 22:53:19 -!- HET2 [~diman@nat65.mia.three.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:54:45 ssacc: why don't you use the source? 22:55:11 You already have aa-misc.lisp open, now open cl-aa.asd ! 22:55:57 oh, i'm not at cl-vector anymore, that's why... 22:56:00 locate .asd ; locate package.lisp # may help too. 22:56:20 Xach's article is quite evident 22:56:25 well, not everything ;) 22:57:49 i wonder why slime hasn't already automated the process of setting up a new project 22:58:09 (i would immediately define yasnippets or something...) 22:58:13 -!- paul0 [~user@187.112.71.240] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:59:11 but package.lisp files can become pretty long, right? 23:00:12 ssacc: How hard would it be to write (defun slime-new-project () (interactive) (yasnippets ...)) for your own projects? 23:01:20 ssacc: sometimes 23:01:33 pjb: it's just annoying that it hasn't been done yet 23:01:46 It would be even more annoying if it had been done already! 23:01:51 HET2 [~diman@nat66.mia.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:01:54 (I don't set up my projects like yours!!!) 23:02:15 Xach: in this regard Java's public/private/protected/... keywords don't seem to be so uncool to me anymore 23:02:25 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:02:55 and btw, having to specify the project's name in package.lisp, in .asd and sometimes in other .lisp files is redundant 23:03:04 Whoop de fucking do. 23:03:09 and redundancy and programming are mutual exclusive 23:03:38 -!- EarlGray [~paranoid@ANice-252-1-32-150.w82-122.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 23:03:52 McMAGIC--Copy [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 23:03:53 pjb: how do you set up yours? without package.lisp, .asd, asdf, quickload, ....? 23:03:56 EarlGray [~paranoid@ANice-252-1-32-150.w82-122.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:03:57 ssacc: they're only similar because you made them so. 23:04:20 pkhuong: no, defpackage and defsystem both require the project name, as far as i can see 23:04:33 you see wrong. It's a convention that many people adopt. 23:04:36 ssacc: I'm not you. 23:05:12 In practice, you can find systems with a package that's named differently and systems with more than one package. 23:05:25 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:05:27 the system name does not necessarily match the package name 23:05:37 and a system can contain many defpackages in it 23:05:38 -!- EarlGray [~paranoid@ANice-252-1-32-150.w82-122.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 23:05:54 EarlGray [~paranoid@ANice-252-1-32-150.w82-122.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:06:30 or even none at all. 23:06:43 yep 23:06:44 macrocat [~marmalade@99.192.109.216] has joined #lisp 23:06:50 so if i want to write a package.lisp for this http://paste.lisp.org/display/121990#1 i would need to specify with-canvas, get-font, set-font, translate,... explicitly in package.lisp? 23:07:12 are those symbols you want to export? 23:07:42 some people put them all up front with defpackage, some people make inline macros to export things as they define them 23:08:02 *Phoodus* prefers the latter, better for DRY 23:08:06 <_3b> note that slime does automate adding exports to the defpackage form 23:08:06 well, i would just like to use them without having to say vecto::get-font, vecto::set-font, vecto::... everytime 23:08:23 <_3b> you don't need :: since they are exported from vecto 23:08:31 <_3b> you don't need vecto: since you :use #:vecto 23:08:44 if you :use a package,t hen its public symbols become directly accessable in your package 23:08:46 <_3b> vecto's defpackage is what needs to :export those 23:09:38 ssacc: are you going through some sort of book or tutorial, or just trying to bang this out on your own? 23:10:17 a lot of this package foo is covered well in standard resources 23:10:23 *ssacc* is banging heavily 23:10:39 *ssacc* stops banging now 23:10:44 it would behoove you to read up on things now that you've got a bit of context and can understand better 23:14:01 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:14:03 i would just be glad to get the veco intro example running in the next few minutes 23:14:12 that would mean at least a little success for today 23:16:24 here i'm stuck: http://paste.lisp.org/display/121992 23:16:36 -!- udzinari [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: zzzzzzZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzz] 23:17:14 -!- sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:17:52 ssacc: is that the entirety of first-project.lisp? 23:18:04 yup 23:18:11 It needs an in-package form. 23:18:21 ? 23:18:41 <_3b> depackage should be in package.lisp, not package.asd if that wasn't just a typo 23:18:41 -!- HET2 [~diman@nat66.mia.three.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:18:45 <_3b> *defpackage 23:18:59 and defpackage should :use #:vecto, not #:veco 23:19:15 ssacc: Your pastes so far show a serious lack of attention to detail. 23:19:34 _3b: was a type, it's in package.lisp 23:19:51 cfy [~cfy@218.75.27.163] has joined #lisp 23:19:51 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.27.163] has quit [Changing host] 23:19:51 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 23:21:11 still no output file produced an :width isn't recognized 23:21:52 <_3b> hmm, "Error: Don't know how to use a DEBUG-SOURCE without a namestring or a form." wonder if i need newer sbcl or slime or if it is actually broken 23:22:21 -!- psilord [~psilord@ppp-70-226-163-151.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has left #lisp 23:22:32 ssacc: Perhaps that's because of the lack of an in-package form. 23:22:48 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:22:51 Xach: (progn ...) or something? 23:22:56 i don't know what you mean 23:23:07 ssacc: read a book. 23:23:10 <_3b> ssacc: something... specifically in-package 23:23:42 ssacc: Read some code. (in-package #:first-project) should be the first non-comment in the lisp file. 23:25:35 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:26:51 22 compiler notes 23:26:56 ;) 23:26:59 i'm tired 23:29:06 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has left #lisp 23:29:08 just help me get this running, so i can sleep well 23:29:37 <_3b> did it not run? 23:29:44 NO! 23:29:51 ssacc: This time paste the code verbatim and completely instead of half-assing it. 23:30:08 <_3b> also include what it did do, verbatim 23:30:34 cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.67] has joined #lisp 23:30:34 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.67] has quit [Changing host] 23:30:34 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 23:31:08 <_3b> also say how you tried to run it 23:32:02 tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:34:14 http://paste.lisp.org/display/121993 - Emacs: Slime: C-c C-k 23:35:17 <_3b> did you compile/load (C-c C-k does that) package.lisp first? 23:35:49 *_3b* suspects the package first-project was defined incorrectly at some point 23:36:43 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.213.96] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 23:37:35 no, i didn't compile/load pakcage.lisp manually - i'm so used to Java/Eclipse where id don't have to worry about wuch "low-level" manual stuff 23:37:49 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:38:00 <_3b> well, in eclipse/java, you would load the entire project, right? 23:38:07 ssacc: Go read a book and stop being stupid 23:38:08 do i need a in-package form in package.lisp and in first-project.lisp or just in package.lisp? 23:38:20 drdo: thanks for being nice to me! 23:38:22 -!- ssacc [~sa@188-195-200-95-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:38:28 <_3b> equivalent of that would be loading the whole thing with asdf or quicklisp 23:38:55 <_3b> you don't usually need one in package.lisp 23:38:59 He left 23:39:09 <_3b> ah, guess that works too 23:40:32 <_3b> hmm, new sbcl didn't help, wonder if it is worth restarting emacs to try new slime 23:40:41 Seriously, if he had just read PCL's chapter on packages he would be done and have a good understanding in 10min 23:41:02 -!- fogus`away [~fogus@pool-96-255-210-172.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: thunking] 23:45:38 -!- EarlGray [~paranoid@ANice-252-1-32-150.w82-122.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 23:45:57 EarlGray [~paranoid@ANice-252-1-32-150.w82-122.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:47:01 pnq [~nick@ACA2B215.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 23:52:39 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 23:53:03 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.103.171] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 23:53:48 Noctix [Someone@pool-96-252-230-58.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:03 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has left #lisp 23:57:38 -!- EarlGray [~paranoid@ANice-252-1-32-150.w82-122.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 23:57:57 EarlGray [~paranoid@ANice-252-1-32-150.w82-122.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:58:04 -!- mippymoe89 [~mippymoe8@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]