00:00:00 -!- pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:01:16 sbcl is refusing to compile a function because it recurs http://paste.lisp.org/display/121907 00:01:34 ezakimak: what does it say? 00:02:05 output in paste 00:02:54 dunno why it added twice to the annotation 00:03:11 <_3b> it is complaining because you try to redefine cl:tree-equal 00:03:15 you're redefining the cl function 00:03:24 oh. i gotta shadow it 00:03:54 <_3b> or use a different name that makes it obvious how it differs from cl:tree-equal 00:03:55 where does it say that it already exists? 00:04:00 and it's wrong, anyway 00:04:40 <_3b> it doesn't say it directly that i can see, which sbcl could probably handle better 00:04:59 i have a longer version that works, I'm trying to shorten it 00:05:41 Mococa [~Mococa@187.59.207.229] has joined #lisp 00:06:43 pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 00:08:46 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:13:37 -!- marmalade_ [~marmalade@142.177.226.101] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:14:18 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:14:23 nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:215:5200:0:5efe:3b42:8f51] has joined #lisp 00:14:29 -!- nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:215:5200:0:5efe:3b42:8f51] has quit [Changing host] 00:14:29 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 00:16:17 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 00:16:44 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:17:55 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:18:36 How easy/difficult is it to pick apart the innards of a function? 00:18:40 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 00:18:51 argiopeweb [~elliot@155.31.172.49] has joined #lisp 00:18:51 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:04 what do you mean? 00:21:10 stassats, in Picolisp, every function that's not built-in is just a list 00:21:34 So to fiddle with the function, I can just do stuff to the list that makes it up 00:21:40 Anything similar with Common Lisp? 00:22:17 Sgeo: You'd have to make it yourself. 00:22:23 functions in cl are defined by lists too, you open it in the editor and fiddle with it 00:22:24 code == data in common lisp 00:22:38 until you compile it 00:22:44 you can change it 00:22:50 stassats, but can you edit it programmatically? 00:23:01 ezakimak, that "until" is what's bothering me, I think 00:23:02 sure 00:23:02 or, you can keep the original lists around and eval them. Slower, but it keeps the source list around 00:23:23 why do you want to? 00:23:33 stassats, it's fun? 00:23:39 not really 00:23:42 orivej_ [~orivej@host-95-146-66-217.spbmts.ru] has joined #lisp 00:24:22 fun is subjective 00:24:33 it's more fun that perl. 00:24:43 -!- orivej [~orivej@host-85-146-66-217.spbmts.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:25:05 of course, that doesn't say much. 00:25:13 the gap is large. 00:27:11 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-98-113-194-183.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:30:49 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.12.183] has joined #lisp 00:33:11 mauryck [~mauryck@stu232-80.bard.edu] has joined #lisp 00:34:46 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 00:35:20 -!- argiopeweb [~elliot@155.31.172.49] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:41:50 -!- mauryck [~mauryck@stu232-80.bard.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:42:02 *attila_lendvai* shakes his head reading slime-devel and stays away from joining the kicking of a dead horse... 00:42:16 ? 00:42:29 mauryck [~mauryck@stu232-80.bard.edu] has joined #lisp 00:42:34 M-x dead-horse-mode 00:43:43 Phoodus: careful, it may accidentally kill a horse! 00:44:44 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-135-5.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:45:13 M-x zombie-horse-mode ? 00:45:36 there are very few contributions to slime compared to the number of programmers using it. most people keep random extensions/fixes locally, etc... but it's not even worth writing about... 00:45:48 I rather go to bed, good night! 00:46:40 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:47:05 well, fixing for the sake of fixing isn't worthwhile 00:47:53 *_3b* should send my slime changes to the ML or something one of these days 00:49:02 especially when it prevents the user from shooting himself in the foot accidentally, while there remains 99% of cases which can't be prevented 00:49:25 mark__ [~markskilb@host86-137-38-78.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 00:50:09 oh well, i already spent too much time arguing about the issue 00:50:35 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:50:37 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:50:50 having said that, patches which do something useful are welcome 00:52:21 *beach* resists the temptation to talk about dangling participles. 00:53:04 -!- mauryck [~mauryck@stu232-80.bard.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:54:51 codewad [~codewad@50-47-240-200.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 00:56:42 <_3b> anyone know if lisppaste/lisppaste2 CVS is current lisppaste code? 00:56:58 dmiles [~dmiles@c-24-21-133-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:57:17 <_3b> last update is ~9month ago, which sounds plausible 00:59:20 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-21-133-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:03:49 argiopeweb [~elliot@59.74.91.184.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:04:15 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.216.177] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 01:05:31 mauryck [~mauryck@stu232-80.bard.edu] has joined #lisp 01:08:51 -!- pyrony [~epic@office1.klout.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:13:12 -!- mauryck [~mauryck@stu232-80.bard.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:14:57 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 01:17:34 <_3b> heh, i guess i don't feel so bad about 3bmd performance compared to peg-markdown, wondered why my system load was higher than usual, and realized it was still trying to process that cl-mongo README from a few days ago :/ 01:18:11 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-123-190.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:18:11 <_3b> ('it' being peg-markdown, 3bmd only took a few seconds in current form) 01:18:37 ha 01:18:45 *stassats* wonders what kind of README it is 01:19:15 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:19:17 markskilbeck [~markskilb@host86-137-38-78.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 01:19:17 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@host86-137-38-78.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 01:19:17 markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 01:19:20 <_3b> one that is a near worst-case parse for non-packrat peg parsers 01:19:28 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 01:19:43 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Client Quit] 01:20:00 *_3b* didn't expect it to be that bad though 01:20:13 36KB only, i wouldn't expect it either 01:20:40 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-153-196.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:20:55 <_3b> can't remember if 'worst case' is quadratic or exponential, i suppose exponential could be that bad 01:21:10 madManchegan [~Home@66.253.130.122] has joined #lisp 01:21:12 -!- mark__ [~markskilb@host86-137-38-78.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:21:23 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c72ce0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:21:48 *stassats* doesn't know a thing about parsers 01:22:03 good thing i can get away with it in lisp 01:23:22 stassats: you probably want to keep it that way. I learned an awful lot in the course of writing mark-and-render - including why almost all wikis just use regexes. 01:23:23 <_3b> stlil has some useful stuff, even when using sexp syntax, since you can 'parse' at the token level too 01:24:22 jfleming: because they want to have more problems? 01:24:38 :) 01:24:47 <_3b> seem to remember a paper (from piumarta maybe?) with a simple compiler implemented as a set of peg parsers 01:25:48 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 01:26:43 stassats: writing a parser for wikimarkup is a bitch, especially if you want to make it extensible. I've made something reasonably usable as a first pass, but I need to redesign part of it, to switch from processing a line at a time, to going through the whole thing as a stream of characters. I know it's going to be tricky, which means it's going to be another drawn-out struggle with edge-cases. 01:27:16 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:27:35 *stassats* only deals with parsing structured binary data 01:27:38 now, that's easy and fast 01:27:39 <_3b> yeah, making grammars for 'easy to use' markups is annoying :/ 01:29:13 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 01:29:38 <_3b> (not that 'structured binary' says anything about whether that structure is sane or not :p ) 01:30:16 i made it, so i think it's sane! 01:33:05 -!- argiopeweb [~elliot@59.74.91.184.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:34:17 _3b: I wonder if it would make sense to only memoise probablistically, in a packrat parser: saves space, and states that are visited often will (probably) end up being memoised after a small amount of recomputations on average. 01:34:29 and regarding redefinition of tree-equal, looks like it's fixed in the new sbcl, it produces a package lock error 01:34:48 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-135-5.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 01:35:01 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.255] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:35:16 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:35:55 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 01:36:15 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-98-113-194-183.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 01:37:00 knightblader [~scifi@c-68-62-243-79.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:37:22 sykopomp: I fixed the foreign library loading on cl-openal to use framework or platforn default (.dylib) on Mac OS X (darwin). See: https://github.com/sykopomp/cl-openal/pull/1 01:38:04 nowhereman [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-10-176.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:38:25 pkhuong: a generationnal memoizer? 01:39:04 pjb: I was thinking of something even simpler than that. 01:39:16 cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:39:40 jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has joined #lisp 01:41:04 just skip the insertion with a fixed probability. The expected number of time a state will be visited (and recomputed) is bounded, and you save a lot of space on useless memoisation. 01:41:17 -!- nowhere_man [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-2-136.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:41:29 ikki [~ikki@189.247.145.97] has joined #lisp 01:42:03 ericklc [~ikki@189.247.41.45] has joined #lisp 01:42:54 mauryck [~mauryck@stu232-80.bard.edu] has joined #lisp 01:43:13 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 01:43:13 peterhil`: merged. Thanks. 01:43:14 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c72ce0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 01:43:39 -!- madManchegan [~Home@66.253.130.122] has left #lisp 01:44:53 -!- jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.56] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:46:10 It could of course just be: ... (:unix (:default "libopenal")) (:darwin (:framework "openal") ... if there is no specific reason to use version 1 01:46:14 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.145.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:46:15 -!- Levenson [~Levenson@95.59.101.206] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:46:54 <_3b> pkhuong: hmm, interesting idea 01:47:35 gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 01:47:54 salva_oz [~kvirc@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 01:48:21 <_3b> pkhuong: maybe weight the probability by how long it took to parse too 01:48:50 <_3b> (assuming some high-res, fast to read timer is available) 01:49:18 or just count number of parsing routines called. 01:50:01 -!- ericklc is now known as ikki 01:50:41 -!- xan_ [~xan@208.80.69.187] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:51:19 hello 01:52:40 -!- mauryck [~mauryck@stu232-80.bard.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:53:49 ... can I specialize a method on global variable's value? 01:54:21 somebody is using zeromq? I dont find a way to run the "hello world" without blocking the repl, i launch a procces but when call (zmq:recv ...) the repl is blocked 01:54:22 <_3b> you might be able to specialize it on a value, but not tied to a variable 01:54:42 ok 01:54:48 classic wrapper it is 02:01:31 pkhuong: not a bad idea either. Depends on the time needed to compute vs. the space lost in memoizing and time to throw out the first generation. 02:02:10 argiopeweb [~elliot@adsl-98-65-180-158.dab.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:32 p_l|backup: yes, usually it's called a IF, or a COND. 02:02:54 (defmethod m (...) (if (eql *GLOBAL* 'something) (do-something) (do-something-else))) 02:03:31 p_l|backup: now, if that occurs more than once, perhaps you want ContextL. 02:03:53 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:04:09 pjb: nah, in this case, it will be (defun handle-it (params...) (gf-from-handling-protocol *current-handler* params...)) 02:04:48 (which is basically what ContextL does, I guess). 02:05:01 IF/COND will swiftly turn into more coding than its worth (I'm starting with code that uses filesystem, then going to look into Amazon S3, Rackspace's CloudFiles etc.) 02:05:37 pjb: with contextl, it would be a :before method setting the context (iirc) 02:06:09 p_l|backup: my understanding is that you _can_ specialise on a value, but that the value's fixed at compile-time, so this isn't much help if you want to specialise on "whatever *gvar* is set to right now" 02:06:24 ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.178.176] has joined #lisp 02:06:41 jfleming: p_l|backup wants to do the reverse. 02:07:34 -!- ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.178.176] has quit [Client Quit] 02:09:45 basically, I want to select at boot time which implmentation of certain stuff is going to be used (things like localhost testing which use HT/CL+SSL compared to production which gets SSL information from Nginx revproxy, disk storage vs. S3 vs. CloudFiles etc.) 02:10:35 p_l|backup: so this will be detected at startup, and won't be changed thereafter? 02:12:46 m4dnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 02:12:54 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:13:08 jfleming: not in production on environment, but for developement it will change at runtime 02:13:58 p_l|backup: sounds on the face of it like a problem I've just solved in one of my own projects. Is it viable to define a class for each environment, then specialise methods on those classes? The method calls are the same from the outside, which gives a consistent API to the rest of the app. 02:14:53 Unless I've missed something, you just need to run the detection as part of the startup, before bringing up the application proper. 02:15:49 jfleming: that's what I'm doing right now - I have normal function as entry point, which calls the protocol GF with current handler class 02:15:52 xan_ [~xan@205.158.58.41.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 02:16:31 -!- xan_ [~xan@205.158.58.41.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:20:16 Then I am missing something. If you need to despatch on value rather than type, and the range of values is finite and known but too large for cond/if, what about a lookup hash-table? 02:21:18 generic functions exist already, and can allow for reuse. 02:22:04 jfleming: I think the contents got lost in the noise. (y-or-n-p 'resync) 02:22:04 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-153-196.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:23:30 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-153-196.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:23:31 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 02:23:35 ... nvm, don't have time, I ended up organizing a meeting with prospective seed financing tomorrow and we don't even have a presentation 02:23:59 Then I'll stay quiet and go find more caffeine. 02:24:39 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has joined #lisp 02:25:17 I've hit that issue with the limitations of what the multimethod dispatch can match on (if I'm understanding your issue correctly) 02:25:24 stw [~Steve@pool-98-109-5-156.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:25:27 had to split it into multiple multimethods 02:25:55 where in this case, (defmethod foo (bar baz) (other-method *global* bar baz)) 02:26:26 but of course, that means multiple generic functions to deal with when adding functionality 02:29:33 -!- fantasy [~fantasy@202.102.144.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:31:05 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h134n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 4.0.1/20110413222027]] 02:31:19 Yuuhi` [benni@p5483A922.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:19 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483AA08.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:34:49 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 02:41:02 -!- jweiss [~user@cpe-069-134-063-238.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:43:07 fantasy [~fantasy@202.102.144.6] has joined #lisp 02:48:07 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-233-183-125.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:07 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-233-183-125.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 02:48:07 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 02:51:11 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:59:42 sharps [~hazel@121-72-240-85.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:20 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:02:40 -!- el-maxo [~max@p5DE8D4FB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:02:53 el-maxo [~max@p5DE8F6FA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:03:39 -!- pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:19:43 mark__ [~markskilb@host86-137-67-152.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 03:20:52 hello 03:21:12 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:28:18 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-216-248.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 03:29:21 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:30:57 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:34:16 -!- nixfreak [~nixfreak@mn-10k-dhcp1-3174.dsl.hickorytech.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 03:35:58 hello sharps 03:36:12 Demosthenes [~demo@173.225.49.196] has joined #lisp 03:36:14 hi spiaggia 03:36:31 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:39:53 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:40:34 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@173.225.49.196] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:44:42 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-xzjbtkuxeyjhpfcx] has joined #lisp 03:50:07 Hi sharps, spiaggia 03:50:22 hey jfleming 03:52:05 Lisp: The Movie? 03:52:34 I'd watch that 03:54:05 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has joined #lisp 03:55:04 -!- stw [~Steve@pool-98-109-5-156.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:03:09 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.93.48] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:03:33 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.75.173] has joined #lisp 04:05:44 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p5483A922.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:06:03 Yuuhi` [benni@p5483A922.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:25 Hmm. What's the plot? 04:06:51 Or does it get all meta, and redefine itself at run-time? 04:07:38 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:08:43 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 04:13:41 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.75.173] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:14:48 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.77.67] has joined #lisp 04:17:19 -!- naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:19:44 Hmm. 04:19:48 Why does formatter exist? 04:20:20 so you can use the format language without format, I guess 04:21:07 <_3b> so you can build format strings at runtime, and reuse them without having to parse it every time 04:21:45 <_3b> (or when you use a compiler without compiler macros to do that for you at compile time) 04:23:55 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.59.207.229] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:23:59 <_3b> also useful when you want to make a function that prints some stuff, and the lambda list it uses is OK 04:25:08 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:25:44 -!- danlentz [~danlentz@c-69-141-20-254.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 04:26:06 *Sgeo* skims through some HyperSpec 04:26:09 *Sgeo* o.Os at (setf (car x) datum) 04:27:28 Time to read a book, eh? ;) 04:27:56 I still haven't exactly convinced myself on CL vs Racket 04:28:08 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.9.66.253] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:28:37 Although if hot-swapping is easier/more possible in CL than Racket, that's a good argument 04:28:39 >.> 04:28:53 It isn't usually good to start learning language from specification. 04:29:45 Like I said, just vaguely skimming 04:29:57 Erm, I shouldn't have said like I said 04:29:58 sorry 04:30:20 psilord [~psilord@adsl-71-150-253-124.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:20 -!- psilord [~psilord@adsl-71-150-253-124.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 04:30:53 it's a really strange comparison. 04:31:09 racket is not even a language, to start with. 04:31:29 xale: neither is SBCL. 04:31:39 what? 04:32:04 *_3b* thought 'racket' was intended as a separate language now 04:32:06 racket's an implementation, isn't it? 04:32:25 it's an implementation of more than one language, I belive 04:32:38 an implementation of what? 04:32:55 it can be a standards-compliment scheme but they also have their own scheme-like language 04:32:59 <_3b> first thing on racket page: "Racket is a programming language." 04:33:17 <_3b> (but it isn't CL, so is more or less off topic here) 04:33:18 sharps, and a prolog-like language that looks nothing like a lisp 04:33:48 Sgeo: I am in no way a Racket expert 04:34:48 Neither am I, but "Racket is a programming language" is about as helpful as "Lispworks is a programming language." Looks more like a programming environment that grew out of a Scheme implementation, to me. 04:35:12 _3b: that's aimed at the author of the Racket page, not at you. 04:35:29 you'd be mostly wrong, then. 04:36:32 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 04:39:08 the definition of language seems to be a bit murky when you are dealing with lisps. 04:39:19 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:39:23 unless racket can compile something that cannot be done with the right set of macro definitions in standard scheme. 04:39:41 longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has joined #lisp 04:39:47 OK, I take that back. It *is* a language. 04:39:55 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has quit [Quit: good night everyone] 04:40:36 McMAGIC--Copy [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 04:45:16 setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:47:13 pyrony [~epic@99-204-18-97.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 04:48:50 xale: jfleming is right, it is a language. (It's separate from Scheme, but that's not saying much, since it would be true for pretty much any practical Scheme implementation.) 04:48:57 oconnore: That's exactly right. 04:50:43 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.41.45] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:53:32 BountyX [~erhan@adsl-65-43-229-111.dsl.bcvloh.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 04:53:42 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.130.19] has joined #lisp 04:56:10 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@rrcs-64-183-86-53.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:00:43 nostoi [~nostoi@0.Red-79-154-133.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 05:01:54 Demosthenes [~demo@m485736d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 05:02:22 eli: what is the implementation of racket called then? 05:03:01 xale: It's called Racket. 05:09:41 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-yeckwqtcimmamtrm] has joined #lisp 05:10:36 mauryck [~mauryck@stu234-251.bard.edu] has joined #lisp 05:10:43 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@0.Red-79-154-133.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 05:12:08 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[~realitygr@adsl-76-232-153-196.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:54:02 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 05:54:07 -!- lanthan [~ze@p54B7D559.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 05:54:51 -!- mark__ [~markskilb@host86-137-67-152.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:55:17 mark__ [~markskilb@host86-137-67-152.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 05:56:02 tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 05:57:07 benny [~benny@i577A84C3.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 05:57:07 -!- paul0 [~user@189.114.196.61.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:59:37 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.130.19] has joined #lisp 05:59:38 jmbr [~jmbr@157.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 06:03:17 -!- fantasy [~fantasy@202.102.144.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:04:52 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-xzjbtkuxeyjhpfcx] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by 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[email@2001:470:1f08:b3d::2] has joined #lisp 06:32:59 fantasy [~fantasy@202.102.144.6] has joined #lisp 06:33:35 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 06:33:39 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:34:01 good morning 06:34:17 pyrony [~epic@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:38:39 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:40:40 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:41:04 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 06:41:35 -!- ec|iPad [~elliottca@cpe-066-056-234-188.ec.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ec|iPad] 06:42:04 ec|iPad [~elliottca@cpe-066-056-234-188.ec.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:44:21 markskilbeck [~markskilb@host86-158-170-107.range86-158.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 06:44:29 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@host86-158-170-107.range86-158.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 06:44:29 markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 06:46:18 splittist [~splittist@142-216.1-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:46:59 morning 06:48:59 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 06:50:12 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 06:50:14 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 06:51:17 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:51:33 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:52:00 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 06:56:54 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 07:00:47 ilynva [~energetik@mail.kgtei.ru] has joined #lisp 07:03:16 -!- ec|iPad [~elliottca@cpe-066-056-234-188.ec.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:04:24 -!- bege [~bege@S0106001cf0520ea3.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:04:37 -!- el-maxo [~max@p5DE8F6FA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:05:35 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@157.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:05:49 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:11:14 -!- gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:11:24 gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 07:12:55 tcr [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:14:12 lanthan [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:17:05 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:18:30 good day to you all 07:18:55 ec|iPad [~elliottca@cpe-066-056-234-188.ec.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:18:56 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has joined #lisp 07:19:46 *Younder* thinks lung cancer is a nasty disease. 80 % mortality... 07:19:54 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has joined #lisp 07:21:21 el-maxo [~max@p5DE8F6FA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:21:29 *jdz* thinks life is a nasty disease, 100% mortality 07:21:52 My days are done now you must carry on 07:23:54 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:24:10 spurvewt [~fess@gate113.iba.by] has joined #lisp 07:25:23 Younder: that bad? 07:26:34 -!- gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:27:37 gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 07:28:59 -!- fantasy [~fantasy@202.102.144.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:30:05 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-153-196.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:30:58 Younder: question for cl-php-date for you ok? 07:31:12 sure 07:31:37 jnoos [stemearay@118.45.149.63] has joined #lisp 07:31:39 -!- iori [~iori@110-133-45-54.rev.home.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:31:42 http://cl-php-date.sourceforge.net/ - Are you sure that the colons should be there? 07:31:43 (date "l", (encode-universal-time 0, 0, 0, 7, 1, 2000))) 07:32:22 Is there some way to align if statements with lots of "else if" to prevent further indentations? 07:32:27 what colons? 07:32:37 gko: what "else if's"? 07:32:47 gko: use COND 07:32:59 gko: no us one of the case alternatives 07:33:14 or cond 07:34:03 -!- setmeaway2 [setmeaway3@118.45.149.63] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:35:45 flip214, It models date in PHP fearly closely so you can probably use that help. 07:38:38 aerique [310225@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:38:44 Younder: I think that the example should read (date "l" (e-u-t 0 0 0 7 1 2000)), ie. the "," shouldn't be there, right? 07:39:48 Oh sorry, that's a comma - I mixed that up with semicolon 07:40:30 iori [~iori@110-133-45-54.rev.home.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:40:43 Younder: cond, right... 07:40:55 forgot this one 07:41:19 Guthur [c743cb8d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.141] has joined #lisp 07:42:08 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-103-253.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:42:30 flip214, I'll look into it 07:43:05 flip214, There are many bugs in that code 07:43:27 Never mind, just stumbled upon the page and wondered 07:43:36 Just leave it as-is 07:44:07 I have 07:45:10 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:45:11 -!- insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-53-160.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:45:12 You might want to read 'The long and painful history' by Eric Naggum 07:45:15 -!- gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:45:35 fantasy [~fantasy@202.102.144.6] has joined #lisp 07:45:48 gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 07:46:16 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:46:18 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 07:46:19 'The long and painful history of time' 07:48:29 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-150-156.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:49:40 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d003dae.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:50:44 -!- gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:50:53 -!- fantasy [~fantasy@202.102.144.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:53:13 -!- z777 [~user@183.62.131.178] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:53:42 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 07:53:54 gaidal_ [~gaidal@113.109.127.142] has joined #lisp 07:54:03 gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 07:56:39 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.130.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:57:11 Thanks 07:58:40 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:58:49 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:59:53 have anyone been hacking CLOS to support dispatch on CL types instead of classes? 08:01:24 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:01:26 cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has joined #lisp 08:01:26 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has quit [Changing host] 08:01:26 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 08:01:53 markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 08:04:26 jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.3.201] has joined #lisp 08:05:40 freiksenet: no, because that's ill-defined as stated 08:06:24 there was some thesis that developed a full predicate-dispatch system for CLOS 08:06:48 -!- ec|iPad [~elliottca@cpe-066-056-234-188.ec.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:06:54 ec|iPad [~elliottca@cpe-066-056-234-188.ec.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:07:09 cmm: Predicate DIspatching in CLOS? 08:07:13 I'll take a look 08:07:28 c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-stvazgmskdtjfxgz] has joined #lisp 08:07:29 also, Pascal Costanza has done some interesting work that is similar to predicate dispatch but simpler and more performant, but the name escapes me right now 08:07:56 ok 08:07:58 thanks 08:08:41 -!- gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:09:04 predicate dispatch? 08:09:41 I think I know what you mean. 08:09:50 gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 08:11:59 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:12:33 aspect-oriented programming 08:15:33 cmm: http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/7071/AITR-2001-006.pdf?sequence=2 (waring, PDF)? 08:15:45 s/waring/warning/ 08:16:59 splittist: yep 08:18:12 my recollection is that p-cos's thing is probably more interesting, certainly more practical. but I cannot find it! 08:18:29 not contexl? 08:18:33 contextl 08:18:34 no 08:19:21 there was a keyword similar to "layer" but not "layer" 08:19:25 Filtered dispatch? 08:19:28 damn senility 08:19:32 yes! 08:19:35 http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1408685 08:20:08 thank you :) 08:20:19 ywlcm (: 08:23:10 For those following in the logs, this is an interesting (PDF) paper in the same series (as it were) http://www.info.ucl.ac.be/~sgm/papers/2010-sc.pdf 08:24:02 Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.25.8] has joined #lisp 08:24:43 Hi all! 08:26:50 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:26:52 splittist: "buy this article" for 1408685 ... 08:27:02 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 08:28:25 Bahman1 [~Bahman@2.146.25.8] has joined #lisp 08:28:25 -!- Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.25.8] has quit [Disconnected by services] 08:32:05 flip214: the paper linked above seems to describe work that supersedes filtered dispatch anyway (or at least renames things) 08:32:20 -!- Bahman1 [~Bahman@2.146.25.8] has quit [Client Quit] 08:32:42 ok, thanks 08:34:53 Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.25.8] has joined #lisp 08:35:55 naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has joined #lisp 08:36:48 hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:38:11 flip214: and the filtered-dispatch.pdf can be downloaded from Pascal's homepage 08:38:22 fine, thank you! 08:38:48 yeah, got it 08:38:52 how does SBCL bench compared tro AllegroCL ? 08:39:30 dmiles: how does what what? 08:40:25 compare in benchmarks 08:40:33 jdz: this is how people verb nouns in english 08:41:49 if a person is writting a large application in CL, and it runs on SBCL.. would they be advised to make it run on AllegroCL for performance reasons? 08:42:05 probably not 08:42:57 if it runs on AllegroCL would it be worth the effort to make it run on SBCL for performance reasons? 08:43:02 unless they hit specific performance aspects that are known to be bad in sbcl and good in allegro, anyway 08:43:05 (and future cost savings) 08:43:13 no, no examples spring to mind 08:44:11 that's basically what ITA did with their search thing, so I guess the "cost savings" reason can make sense 08:47:53 i am displeased for example of an application in Allegro when i compare it's performance on ECL with some C code thrown in 08:48:33 but it might be becasue i am not giving allegro that extra code that ECL gets 08:48:53 or even tuning allegro correctly 08:49:59 its really the ammount of heap that allegro is ussing that bothers me 08:50:26 it uses 12gb where ECL-like version only uses 5gb 08:51:17 i think that is why the CPU performance is rotten 08:51:31 is the allegro is GCing/Swapping whatnotting 08:52:29 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:52:29 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 08:52:29 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:52:44 the SBCLizing i kind of hoping is like 7-9 gb when thedata is loaded to ram 08:52:51 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-stvazgmskdtjfxgz] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:53:14 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:53:53 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 08:55:10 basho__ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-226-004.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:55:26 pdo [~pdo@217.33.254.141] has joined #lisp 08:57:48 sbcl vs allegro.. i guess would be the size of 30 million hashtables loaded into ram 09:00:24 (i guess after my allegro trial i felt it was a memory hog) 09:00:42 steevy [~steevy@95-89-223-125-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:00:42 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-hxosaamtdvvmvedp] has joined #lisp 09:00:49 -!- steevy [~steevy@95-89-223-125-dynip.superkabel.de] has left #lisp 09:01:14 -!- ec|iPad [~elliottca@cpe-066-056-234-188.ec.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:01:56 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:04:15 ec|iPad [~elliottca@cpe-066-056-234-188.ec.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:05:15 -!- X-Scale [email@2001:470:1f08:b3d::2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:05:41 X-Scale [email@2001:470:1f08:b3d::2] has joined #lisp 09:06:29 mark__ [~markskilb@host86-137-32-46.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:07:56 Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-191-189.w2-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:08:58 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:15:39 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:16:55 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:19:02 c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-wpdfmbzkybbnucie] has joined #lisp 09:19:41 -!- gaidal_ [~gaidal@113.109.127.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:19:44 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:20:05 dmiles: IIRC Allegro licence forbids publishing benchmarks. not 100% sure, though. 09:22:29 dmiles: as for which is faster ... it really depends on what your thing does 09:23:47 i would not worry over heap usage in the abstract, though. worry about it if you see bad swap or gc performance 09:24:18 makes insane amounts of hashtables with links between each other .. and then a*s paths between various places 09:25:19 thast what i saw.. lots of swapping and GCing 09:26:27 dmiles: do you keep writing to those hash-tables? 09:26:33 yes 09:26:37 topeak [~topeak@123.114.122.41] has joined #lisp 09:26:56 kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 09:26:57 (i am building a trail.. as it ges to remember the usefull paths) 09:27:10 (is why i am writing to them) 09:27:23 that's classic generational gc poison -- so if acl has a generational and ecl a non-generational gc, that would pretty much explain it 09:27:47 -!- kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:28:08 does clsql work well from quicklisp 09:28:08 except if you manage to make the application cons only a little bit when it runs -- then the dirty old tables should not matter so much 09:28:21 I'm trying to load the oracle setup 09:28:30 Oracle does not work. 09:28:45 noooo 09:29:01 That is really annoying 09:29:16 ...sorry 09:29:25 cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has joined #lisp 09:29:30 Xach: Is it a clsql issue 09:29:34 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has quit [Changing host] 09:29:34 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 09:29:37 -!- X-Scale [email@2001:470:1f08:b3d::2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:29:44 On the contrary, it's your opportunity to become famous debugging the oracle backend of clsql! 09:29:51 X-Scale [email@2001:470:1f08:b3d::2] has joined #lisp 09:30:34 this actually is just one addition to a long list of issues I am having with Oracle Db at the moment 09:31:19 dmiles: i can't really speak for acl, but in sbcl (which has a generational gc) the way to improve performance in such a situation is: (1) try to restructure your datastructures so that most of your writes are to specialized arrays. eg. have a single massive simple-vector that stores all objects of interest, and thereafter refer to those objects using indexes into that table and build the rest of the structures so that those indexes are stored i 09:31:19 n (simple-array fixnum (*)) 09:31:30 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d003dae.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:32:02 (2) increase GC threshold so that it runs less often 09:32:19 (3) try to cons less for the same reason as #2 09:33:00 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-33-254.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 09:33:00 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-33-254.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 09:33:00 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 09:33:13 basically what you need to remember is that: garbage as such is free, but each GC costs proportional to dirty objects in old generations 09:34:12 pjb: do you know is it completely unusable at the moment 09:35:04 The greater the challenge, the greater the honors to overcome it! 09:36:49 if only time allowed for such challenges to faced 09:38:50 p_l|backup: hi 09:39:01 p_l|backup: it still compiling 1.0.40 on sparc :) 09:39:27 Guthur: i can't get an oracle client environment going for testing 09:39:52 Xach:hehe was just about to post QuickLisp post in that regrad 09:39:56 regard* 09:40:39 ok, I'll try direct from cl-sql repo 09:41:02 I really need to query this db 09:43:56 -!- lusory [~bart@bb121-6-160-243.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:45:14 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:45:28 lusory [~bart@bb121-6-160-243.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 09:46:13 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 09:47:21 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.12.183] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:47:32 -!- rdd [~user@c83-250-52-16.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:47:57 nikodemus: thank you.. that dropping things into the simple-vector is smart.. less conses for isntance 09:48:07 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:51:18 also making the impl that uses hashtables when they want to point at each otehr .. they can point to each others index 09:51:41 dmiles: you're missing the point, actually 09:51:51 the thing you need to do is to get rid of the hash-tables 09:52:35 unless your implementation supports specialized hash-tables, which i don't think it does -- otherwise the objects will almost certainly be stored in simple-vectors inside the hash-tables 09:53:01 and then each (setf gethash) will cause a page to be marked dirty, and makes the next GC slower 09:53:53 dmiles: how big are the hashtables, btw? 09:54:27 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:54:53 so instead you write a hash-table replacement that uses specialized vectors internally, so that (setf getstuff) doesn't write to a simple-vector 09:55:06 but as said, increasing GC threshold is the instant-ease 09:55:25 -!- albino_ [~albino@69.12.222.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:55:30 albino [~albino@69.12.222.214] has joined #lisp 09:55:57 cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has joined #lisp 09:55:57 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has quit [Changing host] 09:55:57 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 09:57:13 ah.. yes i see how i can get rid of hashtables 09:58:58 specialized hash-tables would be nice 09:59:44 ideally you could specify types for both keys and values 10:00:01 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:00:15 usuaily each have about 6 items... several have 8000 or more entries.. its a cross refernce of interrleated RDF 10:00:36 and gethash would expand to (hash-table-test (the K) (the candidate)) 10:00:56 francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has joined #lisp 10:01:02 like owl:instance-of -> owlclass 10:01:49 so owl:instance-of is a hashtable 10:02:33 not sure if the example there was helpfull 10:04:01 (gethash Fido instance-of) -> Dog 10:04:25 It's obvious I'm still excited about picoLisp because just discoverd it, but would really like if someone can share his thoughts/experience on this? 10:04:33 it is sort of an abuse use of hashtables sort of that deserves specialzation 10:04:38 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:05:17 well using hashtables was an experment into simplifying the complex indexing happening 10:06:13 (gethash all-occurances Fido) 10:06:47 all-occurances of where we find the hashtable Fido is cached in a key 10:07:43 (yes Fido is a hashtable and he was used as a key in instance-of) 10:08:04 dmiles: have you checked AllegroGraph? 10:08:06 (yes Fido is a hashtable and he was used as a key in the hashtable instance-of) 10:08:30 s0ber_ [~s0ber@111-240-165-191.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 10:08:34 jdz: yes.. but not converted the code to use AllegroGraph yet 10:09:17 it is probably at some point the right thing to do.. actualy i wonder... 10:09:33 workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 10:09:35 is AllegroGraph impl in Lisp? 10:09:39 yes 10:09:48 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-165-191.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:10:03 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 10:10:07 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-135-5.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:10:38 dmiles: and in AllegroGraph the have what you're describing already there (indices on different combinations of subject, predicate and object) 10:11:09 dmiles: well, at least i think that's what you're doing 10:13:01 i am storing 6 argumented things.. where RDF is 3 .. but conceptualyl maybe RDF doesnt stop at subj,pred,object.. i have sub,pred,obj,obj2,when,where 10:14:01 i mean AllegroGraph doesnt have to just index only 3 importasnt things 10:14:37 well, it's actually 4 (the 4th is graph) 10:15:58 RDF does stop at those 4 10:16:12 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:17:05 where = Graph in my example 10:17:34 looks like you're working with little subgraphs 10:17:36 right.. they optimized/tunned for index the 4 args pretty well 10:17:41 not triples, really 10:17:54 i think that is correct yeah 10:18:24 -!- mark__ is now known as markskilbeck 10:18:33 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@host86-137-32-46.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 10:18:33 markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 10:19:52 there is a way that you can make multi-arity things into triples 10:20:27 you cannot store more than 3 things in a thing that can hold 3 things 10:20:54 but it is creating bogus subject called fact1234 10:21:37 where you tie that fact1234 to several pred,objs s 10:21:47 yes, that's a graph 10:22:09 what was originaly the subj you make a fast123 subjectWas original 10:22:34 fact123 subjectWas originalSubj 10:23:09 in AllegroGraph you can reference a triple directly without a fake triple (as far as i remember) 10:23:40 they have it in the documentation 10:23:42 that is pretty nice.. that cleaner than a fact123 10:24:01 -!- ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:24:31 cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has joined #lisp 10:24:31 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has quit [Changing host] 10:24:31 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 10:25:29 hi,i'm using sbcl,and make a thread,it's running backgound.can i redefine the function in the thread? 10:25:37 -!- workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:26:15 mark__ [~markskilb@host86-137-32-235.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 10:27:00 Guthur: if you are after oracle, you might check out hu.dwim.rdbms, now has oracle backend ;-) 10:27:05 cfy: which function? the one passed to make-thread? 10:27:38 yes, but there are no particular atomicity guarantees 10:27:49 jdz: no,the one the will be call in the thread 10:27:53 -!- gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:27:54 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:28:06 jdz: not the one passed to the make-thread. 10:28:22 all threads see changes to functions the same way 10:28:23 workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 10:28:52 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-qjazsihisozsmtpu] has left #lisp 10:28:54 cfy: except if you have stored and use a function instead of function name (the symbol) 10:29:18 cfy: s/a function/a function object/ 10:30:09 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:30:37 cfy: that is, be careful of when to use FUNCTION (the #' reader macro) 10:30:58 jdz: i don't understand, (sb-thread:make-thread #'fcgi-main), the fcgi-main will call flash-cgi-put,how can i change the flash-cgi-put in the thread ? 10:31:21 cfy: usual function redefinition semantics should apply 10:31:56 jdz: oh. 10:32:09 cfy: is your question about how to connect to a running lisp image? 10:32:43 jdz: no.but can i do this? 10:33:15 cfy: yes you can, just start swank server in your process (you are using Slime, right?) 10:33:31 jdz: yeah,i'm using it. 10:34:49 cfy: so in your program, before processing fcgi stuff, do something like (swank:create-server :port 4006) 10:35:26 cfy: and then in emacs connect to it using M-x slime-connect (and specify the correct port, 4006 in this case) 10:35:42 jdz: got it:) 10:36:27 jdz: thanks.then i can run only one sbcl:) 10:36:54 cfy: yeah, and break your server whenever you want. 10:37:37 hlavaty: will do, cheers 10:37:55 jdz: it's great! :) 10:38:45 Guthur: http://src.knowledgetools.de/tomas/porting/ for info 10:39:11 cfy: i agree :) 10:41:18 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl21-90-216.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 10:44:29 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 10:49:09 jdz: oh,i have made a mistake,i redefine the function passed to the make-thread,so the changes is not noticed. :) 10:50:40 jdz: it's cool to redefine the behavior of the running program:).thank you and nikodemus.:) 10:50:48 sprayzor [529f73ad@gateway/web/freenode/ip.82.159.115.173] has joined #lisp 10:54:51 -!- Salamander_ is now known as Salamander 10:56:12 hlavaty: cheers 10:58:17 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:58:36 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 11:01:02 -!- ec|iPad [~elliottca@cpe-066-056-234-188.ec.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ec|iPad] 11:02:39 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-yeckwqtcimmamtrm] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:05:13 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-ovkbjnzpzkaxemps] has joined #lisp 11:07:57 -!- francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:09:16 glidesurfer [~rosario@77-64-171-36.dynamic.primacom.net] has joined #lisp 11:11:55 -!- sharps [~hazel@121-72-240-85.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:12:28 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-135-5.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 11:13:31 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#lisp 12:01:09 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@chello062178064156.22.11.vie.surfer.at] has left #lisp 12:01:20 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 12:03:27 ltriant [~ltriant@124-168-220-216.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 12:04:47 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-ejfijccatrgvganb] has joined #lisp 12:05:00 -!- Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:07:00 Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 12:08:04 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-165-4.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:11:34 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:12:31 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 12:14:25 -!- knightblader [~scifi@c-68-62-243-79.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: User disconnected] 12:17:28 *Xach* never knew - or forgot - about tree-equal 12:24:33 That's a bit of a problem with CL ... it's so rich, it's hard to remember everything that's already here 12:24:34 Demosthenex [~demo@m485736d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:02 flip214: That doesn't sound right to me. Take a language L that doesn't have a problem. Now add one feature to it that some people might not remember. Suddenly the language has a problem. I can't see that. 12:29:28 beach: *every* language has problems. 12:29:44 see gödel ... 12:29:52 if it's too small, it's limited. 12:30:21 as it gets bigger, it introduces inconsistencies, and it gets harder to remember everything, too 12:31:12 flip214: CL doesn't have that problem, at least not in excessive amounts. Now, C++.... 12:31:15 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:31:54 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:32:10 p_l|backup: yes, it does. as soon as you get some libraries involved (eg. alexandria, hunchentoot, weblocks, cl-sql, quicklisp, etc.) the amount of available functionality gets too big. 12:32:27 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 12:32:36 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178.48.169.59] has joined #lisp 12:32:36 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178.48.169.59] has quit [Changing host] 12:32:36 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 12:32:41 the good thing about CL is that allows very good abstractions ... 12:32:42 bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has joined #lisp 12:33:03 flip214: but you still have a common language (outside of various complete projects that employ DSLs heavily 12:33:03 -!- glidesurfer [~rosario@77-64-171-36.dynamic.primacom.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:33:06 ) 12:33:27 but those tend to show up mainly in "products", not libraries 12:33:31 flip214: what's the point of saying that there is a problem with something particular when everything else also has that problem (and is it a problem really? maybe a fact of life?) 12:34:14 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 12:34:14 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 12:34:14 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 12:34:19 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:34:20 jdz: well, what's the point of denying problems, even if everyone has them? yes, it's just a fact of life, and cannot be changed ... but it's there all the same 12:34:23 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:35:04 flip214: it's not a problem for me => if you say it's a problem, it's a problem in you 12:35:20 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 12:35:30 Or you might be ignorant or mad. 12:35:44 well, every person has to die ... yes, that's a problem for me. isn't it for you? 12:35:49 no 12:36:02 what's the problem in dying? 12:36:24 Makes it hard to pick up the dry cleaning. 12:36:43 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:36:46 Zhivago: This is why I don't buy things that need to be dry cleaned. 12:36:48 picking up dry cleaning is a *real* problem 12:36:48 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d003dae.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:37:20 setmeaway [stemearay@118.45.149.63] has joined #lisp 12:37:47 sellout: One less reason for living, I guess ... 12:45:31 -!- sacho_ is now known as sacho 12:46:24 LiamH [~healy@129-2-134-238.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 12:48:59 Jasko3 [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 12:50:19 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:50:47 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.3.201] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 12:51:52 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 12:52:04 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:53:26 -!- jackhill [jackhill@pilot.trilug.org] has left #lisp 12:56:58 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-175-23.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 12:57:11 rdd [~user@c83-250-52-16.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 12:58:00 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:58:45 -!- Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:59:18 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 13:05:19 ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has joined #lisp 13:05:21 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-165-4.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:06:24 argiopeweb [~elliot@184.91.74.59] has joined #lisp 13:07:03 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 13:10:19 -!- rmarianski is now known as rmar|away 13:10:30 Sara__ [52d4445a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.82.212.68.90] has joined #lisp 13:10:49 helo.. I was here yesterday asking about lisp uses for web development.. 13:10:56 I have a couple more questions 13:12:26 Sara__: What's up? 13:12:38 helo 13:12:52 I installed clisp.. that is the most used implementation of lisp right? 13:13:40 Is it? 13:13:48 Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has joined #lisp 13:13:49 I don't actually know, but I would think SBCL was more popular. 13:14:29 "is more" 13:14:41 Also, faster. 13:15:13 Sara__: No, SBCL is used the most. 13:15:35 johs: well i noticed the use of symbol of the Menorah... which made few of my team wonder about why.. for me that is ok since it is my religion.. but few of my team did not like it.. I know it is no big deal.. but I prefer to switch to another implementation of lisp.. 13:15:53 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:16:06 SBCL.. 13:16:12 will check it then :) 13:16:13 SBCL is great. 13:16:21 Sara__: just use clisp -q, and you will be Menorahless 13:16:23 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:17:10 They should have an option to replace that with a pentacle or a guy nailed to a tree. 13:17:13 There are other alternatives, but SBCL is a pretty safe bet. 13:17:19 splittist: eh.. I really find it not a big deal.. but I will check SBCL so nobody starts talking about it later in my team.. 13:17:28 so SBCL is faster? 13:17:34 Sara__: you may also be interested in http://www.clisp.org/impnotes/faq.html#faq-menorah-why 13:17:41 SBCL is nice. 13:17:56 haha, clisp guys have done a disservice to themselves although probably their intention was the opposite 13:18:28 Sara__: I'm not claiming that there isn't some corner case that CLISP could be doing better, but generally SBCL will be faster. 13:18:36 SBCL compiles to native code. CLISP doesn't. 13:18:49 johs: so.. faster or not? 13:18:51 Also, thread support in CLISP is experimental. 13:18:56 Sara__: Yes. Faster. 13:19:04 But better make sure no-one on your team has anything against the public domain or 19th Century entrepreneurs and benefactors. 13:19:13 splittist: :) 13:20:36 -!- Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.25.8] has quit [Quit: Ave Atque Vale] 13:21:21 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:21:56 What a strange problem to have, by the way. 13:22:12 I'm not used to picking software based on the ethnicity or religion of the author... 13:22:18 Well, with the way the zionists are behaving these days ... 13:22:40 I certainly wouldn't want to be affiliated with them. 13:22:55 speaking of unit testing frameworks 13:23:16 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 13:24:00 Sara__: Oh, you're from Jordan. 13:24:10 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Client Quit] 13:24:35 pnq [~nick@ACA3A624.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 13:25:16 -!- sacho [~sacho@95-42-83-83.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:26:28 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-150-156.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:27:19 johs: correct 13:27:58 johs: so why did you say: faster, BUT... ? 13:28:01 -!- LiamH [~healy@129-2-134-238.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:28:24 I thought you wanted the short version. :) 13:28:39 johs: mmm.. so what are the buts? :P 13:28:40 The short version is "faster.". 13:29:09 None that I know of. 13:29:24 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:29:28 johs: haha then why did you say but? wait.. maybe that was not you? 13:29:41 Looking in chat history.. 13:29:44 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA3A624.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:29:57 Because I don't know for sure that SBCL is faster at everything. 13:30:31 It's not faster to install. ;) 13:30:37 There you go. 13:30:48 Zhivago: To install? isn't that just a one time thing? 13:30:53 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:30:54 Sara__: the great thing about CL is that it is a multi-implementation language, and it is usually quite easy to change implementations even without any prior effort. So by choosing to develop with SBCL won't preclude you from deploying with CCL, for example. I would imagine most people at some point in their development try their code on another implementation. 13:31:20 (ignoring the superfluous 'by') 13:31:20 -!- brodo [~brodo@p5B02355B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: brodo] 13:31:27 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 13:31:31 splittist: i see.. 13:32:35 Of course, there is equally good advice that you should just pick an implementation and develop with that and don't worry about portability while you're beginning. 13:32:35 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 13:32:49 I like the idea that clisp can be bootstrapped with a C compiler, but in practice, I can rarely get all the libraries it wants without some headache. 13:33:18 I haven't had the same level of difficulty installing SBCL binaries and using those to bootstrap sbcl from source. 13:33:31 Xach: Yeah, me too. So that I have something to build SBCL with in case I don't already have SBCL. :) 13:33:49 -!- Demosthenex [~demo@m485736d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:33:50 Xach: (Does that work now, by the way? Bootstrapping from CLISP?) 13:34:02 johs: Don't know, I've never tried it. 13:35:17 well I am using fedora on most of my servers.. surely both implementation are prepackaged for us :) 13:35:53 brodo [~brodo@p5B02355B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:32 Sara__: eschew distribution packaging for lisps (by and large). 13:36:51 Took this at the climbing gym last night: https://skitch.com/sellout/r6tai/lisp-and-climbing  who'd've thought I'd run into a CLIM user there? 13:37:06 greaver [~jo@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 13:37:11 splittist: you mean? 13:37:29 Sara__: I haven't seen that fedora does a very good job of providing Lisp-related software. 13:37:38 Xach: oh really? 13:37:48 sellout: scott mckay? 13:37:55 Xach: did you try it? 13:38:06 Sara__: Not recently. 13:38:10 Xach: Bahaha  good point. I have actually climbed with him. 13:38:19 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:38:20 but did you clim with him? 13:38:28 Xach: Not yet. 13:39:25 It's best not to be too climy early in a relationship. 13:39:39 -!- Sara__ [52d4445a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.82.212.68.90] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:40:07 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:40:45 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:41:03 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:23 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 13:42:12 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:45:50 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:46:38 -!- rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-206-8.uio.no] has quit [Quit: Client exciting.] 13:46:44 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 13:51:34 -!- rmar|away is now known as rmarianski 13:51:39 gz` [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 13:51:53 -!- gz` [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 13:52:36 tsuru [~charlie@adsl-74-179-198-44.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:07 rme [~rme@pool-70-104-127-159.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:30 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:56:05 Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:01:49 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:02:02 jweiss [~user@cpe-069-134-063-238.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:02:29 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 14:04:03 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 14:05:04 replore_ [~replore@ntkngw256114.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:07:17 I've used clisp only on systems that ccl and sbcl don't have binary targets for bootstrapping. 14:07:43 iirc, MIPS64 on irix a few years ago; i got clisp working and couldn't get anything else to go. 14:10:02 oh, when the x86_64 ports of linux were all very young, I got clisp working, and was able to bootstrap sbcl with clisp. 14:10:55 -!- CrazyEddy [~nonexempt@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:13:42 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.188.140] has joined #lisp 14:13:55 -!- Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@1807ds2-noe.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:17:47 Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.25.8] has joined #lisp 14:20:23 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.188.140] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:21:41 milanj [~milanj_@212-200-194-87.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 14:22:02 -!- pyrony [~epic@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:23:59 -!- alph_cent [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:27:04 so it has worked in the past... haven't tried in years. 14:27:07 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:27:47 gaidal_ [~gaidal@113.109.127.142] has joined #lisp 14:28:07 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:28:54 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:37 Fade should still work 14:31:08 Slow as molasses though 14:31:25 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.127.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:32:01 clisp is byte interpreted so have patience 14:32:12 There's an optional JIT. 14:33:01 I have a fast computer. just kicked off a build to check. 14:33:15 Bronsa [~brace@host120-178-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:33:25 times like this I'm somewhat envious of raco's support for parallel builds. 14:33:56 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@58.230.108.42] has joined #lisp 14:34:01 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:34:32 -!- beach [~user@116.118.0.244] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:34:53 beach [~user@116.118.0.244] has joined #lisp 14:35:22 I need to do some linear regressions. Any easy packages? 14:35:29 CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 14:35:42 I've tried RCL but I couldn't figure it out to work linear regression. 14:36:47 Why not just use R 14:37:36 lakatosi [557a1e03@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.122.30.3] has joined #lisp 14:37:39 -!- Shaftoe [~Moe111@modemcable109.28-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: Shaftoe] 14:37:40 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:37:43 Hey Guys 14:38:01 I need to do some complicated work which I cant do with R since I'm not fluent in R 14:38:18 I understand that lists are not the most efficient structures to work with in real life applications 14:38:30 lakotosi: It depends on what you're doing. 14:39:05 there is a make-array yes 14:39:14 And that moving on to arrays and hash tables is a good bet to increase performance when you have lots of data 14:39:26 kenjin2201: google shows a couple of different options. cl-glpk is bindings package for the gnu linear programming toolkit. 14:39:30 lakatosi: It depends on what you're doing. 14:40:02 kenjin2201: You could set up your problem and then call out to LAPACK via your implementation's FFI. I think DGELS is the least-squares solver. 14:40:13 Yes, well, I'm working on a webapplication that creates timetables for conference workshops based on user preferences 14:40:18 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:41:04 -!- gaidal_ [~gaidal@113.109.127.142] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:41:05 lakatosi: has your use of lists been identified as some sort of debilitating bottleneck by profiling? 14:41:09 In which case, lists aren't such a bad idea because they can share substructure. 14:41:14 I wrote a ptototype using lists, erforming simulated anealing to achieve a solution, and per conference the calculations take about 7 seconds 14:41:15 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 14:41:25 So they're a reasonable choice for where you have a lot of backtracking. 14:41:34 Use a profiler. 14:41:35 Thank you all, it doesn't seem so easy. 14:42:25 Well I am doing a lot of mapings, but in some cases I have to use nth, sometimes on really large lists 14:42:30 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl21-90-216.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 14:42:38 lapack is in the bottom of just about any numerical software, R, matlab, matematica so it is a safe bet 14:42:41 -!- replore_ [~replore@ntkngw256114.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:42:45 laktosi: Profiler. 14:42:52 Profiler? 14:42:57 Yes. 14:43:01 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:43:22 as in: use the profiler and find out where the critical sections are in your code. 14:43:32 -!- m4dnificent is now known as madnificent 14:43:32 How do I use a profiler? 14:43:41 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-141-240.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:43:48 Depends on your lisp system. 14:43:50 and lapack can use CUDA... 14:44:00 http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Statistical-Profiler.html 14:44:01 I am using sbcl 14:44:29 ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has joined #lisp 14:44:42 Younder: Hmm Thank you 14:44:46 glidesurfer [~rosario@77-64-171-36.dynamic.primacom.net] has joined #lisp 14:44:49 o/ 14:45:20 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:46:18 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.188.140] has joined #lisp 14:46:21 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:20 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:47:49 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:48:27 well, clisp 2.48 at least still works as a cross compiler for sbcl. 14:49:17 Thanks for introducing me to profiling :) 14:49:22 (I guess I'll leave it the way it is for now 14:49:44 See where the profiler tells you that you're spending the most time and find out why it is doing that. 14:50:12 -!- Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.25.8] has quit [Quit: Ave Atque Vale] 14:50:15 It's probably true that a different data structure will help you -- but at least you can go in with your eyes open. :) 14:50:34 pyrony [~epic@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:36 -!- glidesurfer [~rosario@77-64-171-36.dynamic.primacom.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:50:36 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-ejfijccatrgvganb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:50:42 -!- pyrony [~epic@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 14:51:09 the profiler really reinforces a humble perspective in the programmer. 14:51:46 Yeah 14:52:20 I see it spends a lot of time working with bignums 14:52:44 Right, how do I specify the element type for my functions? 14:52:47 ahh 14:53:23 so a few (declare (fixnum ..)) would a along way 14:53:47 yep :) 14:56:42 -!- __class__ [~class@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:57:24 hmmm 14:57:46 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:49 Is there a way to (declare (fixnum when defining new new parameters? 14:59:14 it has to be after defun and before the function 14:59:46 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/d_type.htm 15:00:05 -!- Jasko3 [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:00:26 Younder: I'm sorry to bother you, but it's hard for me to try lapack and stuff, isn't it possible to do linear regression with RCL? It works for other functions. 15:00:27 before the function definition that is 15:00:32 How do I declare a list of fixnums? 15:01:04 lakatosi: you don't. 15:01:14 The concept doesn't really exist in CL. 15:01:32 I see 15:02:17 often, you don't use lists. 15:02:38 Kenjin2201, the package mathlisp http://matlisp.sourceforge.net/ seems to do what you want 15:03:04 Thank you. I'll try. 15:03:11 It seems that all my functions take lists or trees as parameters 15:03:17 damn :P 15:04:26 __class__ [~class@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:35 lakatosi: (let ((x (car list))) (declare (fixnum x)) ...) 15:04:57 sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 15:05:41 That would kinda work but my lists are almost a thousand elements long 15:06:07 Well, that's an issue if you're doing random access. 15:06:15 So, see how much your nth's are costing. 15:06:24 lakatosi, split it ino smaller functions and let the numeric bi that handles the individual elements be a separate function. 15:06:29 how do I do that exactly? 15:07:25 I mean how do I check how much the nth's are costing me? 15:08:00 Doesn't the profiler output tell you how much time you're spending in each function/ 15:09:20 -!- sprayzor [529f73ad@gateway/web/freenode/ip.82.159.115.173] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:10:05 Not for every function 15:10:36 And the table that it outputs doesn't even show me nth 15:10:50 it may have nthcdr instead. 15:11:28 The Random acces thing houldn't take that long, because the lists that I am accesing randomly are short. 15:11:37 They are located within the longer lists 15:11:50 and I am maping through them mostly 15:13:12 My most called function is supposedly SB-VM::ALLOC-SIGNED-BIGNUM-IN-EAX 15:14:33 if you find youself using nthcdr a lot yo want make-array 15:14:49 I know 15:14:54 that's strange; why do you need large integers for simulated annealing? 15:14:59 I tried make-array 15:15:17 But the program got even slower :P 15:15:24 I don't need large integers 15:16:04 pyrony [~epic@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:07 The biggest number that I store in a list is 7 15:16:25 perhaps paste the code. 15:16:35 fmeyer [~fmeyer@50-56-113-212.static.cloud-ips.com] has joined #lisp 15:16:42 And the largest number in my program is the one returned by my score function 15:16:45 http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp 15:16:54 The last simulate annealing algorithm i wrote was i C. metropolis 15:16:59 you may not need them, but you certainly use them. 15:18:06 It is a bit crude 15:18:16 hacked it together in about 2 hours 15:18:25 most of the code is for generating sample data 15:18:44 Don't be ashamed! Everybody hacks! 15:19:30 ubii [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:34 and some of the functio nnames don't even make sense :P 15:20:05 There is a great potential for parallelism here I would probably write it differently today. 15:20:26 How exactly? 15:20:33 -!- aerique [310225@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:20:54 -!- longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:21:06 Well map-reduce 15:21:11 In general, Younder spouts irrelevant, inaccurage, misspelled garbage. 15:21:26 Inaccurage? 15:21:48 inaccurate garbage = inaccurage 15:21:59 Good luck digging around in there to find the pony. 15:22:08 :) 15:22:35 In the end my lisp program would receive a conference id from a beanstalkd query, gather all the data it needs from the database, come up with a suitable time-table, store the solution in the database, release the job back to beanstalkd so it can work in it later, and move on to the next conference 15:22:39 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl21-90-216.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 15:22:43 each permutation is assigned a cost. the costs are added up. 15:23:10 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@chello062178064156.22.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 15:23:23 lakatosi: are you able to show some of the code? 15:23:33 -!- jamief [~user@158.223.51.80] has quit [Quit: Terminated with extreme prejudice - dircproxy 1.0.5] 15:23:41 http://paste.lisp.org/display/121920 yes 15:23:50 During the reduce stage. The less parts of the execution tree with the less value are discarded 15:23:57 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@50-56-113-212.static.cloud-ips.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:24:20 Xach, thanks, that was totally uncalled for 15:24:24 lakatosi: what do you think happens when you divide two integers in CL? 15:24:39 I get a ratio 15:24:57 is that really what you want? 15:24:57 I know, I should ask for a float 15:25:27 No, but that doesn;t matter 15:25:38 the division part occurs at loading 15:25:38 why not? 15:25:44 Younder: Anything I can do to help someone realize early that a discussion with you is probably a complete waste of time. 15:25:54 I need speed when it's running 15:26:18 alph_cent [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:26:20 lakatosi: you do realize that you then perform arithmetic on these ratios, right? 15:26:31 jamief [~user@158.223.51.80] has joined #lisp 15:26:44 Xach, I don't know what you have against me. I really don't. But you are the one coming away seeming silly and petty 15:27:16 Younder: Here is what I have against you: You write irrelevant, inaccurate, misspelled garbage, usually. If you stopped doing that for a long time, I would have nothing against you. 15:27:19 I do, but before calculating I turn them to floats 15:27:31 Wait 15:27:45 -!- greaver [~jo@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:27:54 Ah, yes, I forgot to write it into the pasted code 15:28:13 Xach, No I dont. Everything I wrote today is relevant to the point and correct. You just did not notice. 15:28:41 sb-sprof's output will help you see what functions end up calling alloc-bignum-in-eax. 15:29:49 I couldn't figure out which function keeps calling it 15:30:01 hsrt [maln@93-138-47-209.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 15:30:30 paste the report. 15:33:15 damn, now I get an entirely different report now :\ 15:33:27 How am I suposed to call the profiler? 15:33:53 -!- rpr [maln@93-141-84-110.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:34:15 naiv [~naiv@ARennes-553-1-161-220.w86-214.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:34:57 -!- lanthan [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:35:49 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-141-240.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:39:17 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-124-135.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:39:46 When I try to use :mode :time 15:39:53 WARNING: No sampling progress; possibly a profiler bug. 15:39:57 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:40:41 lakatosi: I usually use: (sb-sprof:reset) (sb-sprof:start-profiling) (sb-sprof:stop-profiling) (sb-sprof:report) 15:40:53 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-124-135.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:40:57 lakatosi: There's a with-profiling macro but it doesn't work in a way I understand, so I don't use it much. 15:41:04 Good to know 15:41:15 you can use a loop to artificially multiply the amount of time taken. 15:41:32 but a couple seconds should give a few samples already. 15:42:04 -!- Vutral [EZMoBF7zMo@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:42:39 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:43:07 Good lord! There is no way I can give you the full report 15:43:11 just the flat one 15:43:30 atomx` [~user@86.35.150.23] has joined #lisp 15:44:24 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-103-46.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:38 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-32-12-181.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:53 I'm working on a remote computer, and I am using putty 15:45:06 Do you use slime? 15:45:08 so copy-pasting is very hard :( 15:45:10 Yes 15:45:18 Mark the region, save it to a file, scp it to your web host? 15:45:32 joachifm [~joachim@85.17.232.145] has joined #lisp 15:45:37 http://paste.lisp.org/display/121921 15:46:10 I guess I can try that 15:48:11 -!- pyrony [~epic@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:48:15 the flat report is only useful when you already understand your code. 15:49:03 markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 15:49:11 http://paste.lisp.org/display/121922 15:49:13 There 15:49:31 I think the report that I received until now was a memory allocation report 15:49:53 This is ntirely different 15:50:02 pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:50:42 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-103-46.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:52:17 I guess I should work a little on my score function then 15:52:27 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:53:55 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-142-14.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:10 lakatosi: Is offset one of your functions? Perhaps changing the data structures might help 15:55:28 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:42 Yes, it is 15:56:46 I actually think I have to rewrite it entirely. It's really inefficient in it's current form 15:56:51 THanks for the help guys 15:56:59 I gotta go 15:57:10 -!- lakatosi [557a1e03@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.122.30.3] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:57:49 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:58:15 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:58:49 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 15:58:49 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 15:58:49 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 15:59:17 -!- __main__ [~main@adsl-99-173-15-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:59:44 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-wpdfmbzkybbnucie] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:01:30 A discrepancy of efficiency that can factor of 40 times of more is common in CL. Rewrites are common 16:01:53 Or will you refute that Xach 16:03:14 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:03:51 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:05 -!- rotty [~rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:05:19 I refudiate it with all my being. 16:05:39 slyrus: There's a feature in ch-image which can as well be an API design bug. :) The function read-image-file returns either ch-image:image or png-reader:png-something depending on the filetype. And these classes have different accessors for the same slots. 16:07:56 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.155.141] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:08:04 cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:09:20 __main__ [~main@adsl-99-173-15-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:09:35 And said slots are in different packages. And they are not exported. 16:10:30 -!- splittist [~splittist@142-216.1-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:11:49 rotty [~rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #lisp 16:14:01 hi 16:14:22 udzinari` [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 16:14:36 please where I could set $SBCL_HOME to make sbcl work for users? 16:15:11 hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 16:16:03 the shell profile in /etc? 16:17:22 Posterdati: where is sbcl installed? 16:18:26 Xach: executing sbcl gave me an error, because it is installed in /usr/local/lib/sbcl, and sbcl look for .core files in /usr/lib//sbcl 16:18:59 Xach: missing a config step :) 16:20:17 tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:20:42 Posterdati: how did you install SBCL? 16:21:00 pyrony [~epic@68-26-31-103.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:05 Xach: 1.0.40, as root: sh make.sh 16:21:22 Xach: after compiled: sh install.sh 16:21:57 Xach: I'm reading http://www.cliki.net/SBCL 16:22:28 Posterdati: Odd. When I do that, I can run /usr/local/bin/sbcl without any special setting of SBCL_HOME. SBCL finds the core fine. 16:22:35 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-hxosaamtdvvmvedp] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:22:48 Xach: compiling on sparc 16:22:58 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-mbfaypboxgtuzadu] has joined #lisp 16:23:00 Xach: I'm compiling on debian squeeze for sparc 16:23:19 do you have a debian package of sbcl installed? 16:23:22 enupten [~neptune@117.192.83.216] has joined #lisp 16:23:40 splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 16:23:40 Fade: a binary image taken from sbcl.org 1.0.28 16:26:53 well, i'm not on sparc, but I have a very similar setup and my /usr/local/bin/sbcl looks for the core file in /usr/local/lib/sbcl/sbcl.core 16:27:08 :( 16:27:15 you could try symlinking /usr/lib/sbcl to /usr/local/lib/sbcl 16:27:29 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:27:46 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:28:01 Fade: recompiling now 16:28:26 perhaps try a more recent sbcl 16:29:08 Fade: 1.0.40 16:29:34 pnq [~nick@AC8129F9.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 16:29:55 1.0.48.5 is what i'm running on my dev box. 16:30:49 ok 16:31:35 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 16:32:29 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d003dae.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:33:30 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-mbfaypboxgtuzadu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:33:52 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has joined #lisp 16:36:28 Fade: I'm recompiling it now 16:39:59 -!- pnq [~nick@AC8129F9.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:41:22 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:47:22 -!- enupten [~neptune@117.192.83.216] has left #lisp 16:48:02 pnq [~nick@ACA4E789.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 16:54:49 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:55:39 glidesurfer [~rosario@77-64-171-36.dynamic.primacom.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:12 -!- workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:59:12 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:59:30 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-204-121.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:39 sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 17:00:15 Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.25.8] has joined #lisp 17:01:49 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:03:26 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:04:04 -!- glidesurfer [~rosario@77-64-171-36.dynamic.primacom.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:05:06 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 17:05:35 gor[e] [~svr@79.165.187.105] has joined #lisp 17:05:39 billitch [~billitch@78.250.223.123] has joined #lisp 17:06:49 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:07:19 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:07:24 -!- gor[e] [~svr@79.165.187.105] has quit [Client Quit] 17:08:58 -!- pyrony [~epic@68-26-31-103.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:08:58 gor[e] [~svr@79.165.187.105] has joined #lisp 17:09:50 -!- __main__ [~main@adsl-99-173-15-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:10:11 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:06 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:14:20 somebody has been looking at Xach's movie charts: http://images.fastcompany.com/upload/InceptionArch_Slusher.jpg 17:15:30 -!- sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:15:46 sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 17:17:08 heh. I like how the 0th level is labeled "reality" (: 17:17:30 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:19:05 workthrick [~mathrick@130.226.87.177] has joined #lisp 17:19:26 __main__ [~main@adsl-99-173-15-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:23:05 -!- xpf [~xpf@78.31.74.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:26:38 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-248-147.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 17:26:46 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 17:26:47 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@178.48.169.59] has joined #lisp 17:26:47 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 17:26:47 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178.48.169.59] has quit [Changing host] 17:26:47 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 17:27:21 pyrony [~epic@office1.klout.com] has joined #lisp 17:28:00 francogrex [~user@109.130.31.29] has joined #lisp 17:29:25 -!- alph_cent [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:29:51 alph_cent [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:30:02 -!- gor[e] [~svr@79.165.187.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:30:38 gor[e] [~svr@79.165.187.105] has joined #lisp 17:33:29 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA4E789.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:34:13 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:36:37 :) 17:37:11 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 17:38:11 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.188.140] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:40:45 cymew [~davour@c83-255-37-246.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:40:58 MoALTz [~no@92.18.16.192] has joined #lisp 17:41:51 kenjin2202 [~kenjin@58.230.108.42] has joined #lisp 17:41:52 Hi. Anyone here have any experience setting the date in OpenGenera? It asks for date and time but barfs on all my input, so I suspect it's expecting a specific format. 17:42:39 Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:43:02 How do I print tilde using format? Should I do something like (format t "~a" "~") ? 17:43:43 kenjin2202: ~~ 17:43:51 Oh...Thank you 17:44:11 rmarynch [~roman@88.135.194.233] has joined #lisp 17:44:27 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:44:46 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:49 cymew: if you're trying to give it the real date, you can't, it won't work with dates >y2k 17:45:02 hahaha, ow. 17:45:45 pnq [~nick@AC81ED20.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 17:45:58 workthrick: I've tried a dozen permutations, all without any y2k values. :( 17:48:58 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:49:14 something like may 10 1990 1:49pm works on a cadr 17:50:19 antifuchs: we're too much in the future :) 17:50:31 rme: Thanks. I am not sure I have tried that one. Worth pursuing considering the heritage of Genera. 17:51:06 cymew: but in general, if it asks about the date, it means it's failed with y2k already 17:51:27 during a normal boot it gets the time from the host 17:51:54 workthrick: it's kind of hilarious that it happens. there was a text defending the lispms as y2k-proof because their internal time counters just roll over to bignums 17:52:10 *workthrick* notes that opengenera is why he has a good deal of IRC logs randomly dated to 1995 17:52:37 antifuchs: that's for year 2038 17:52:51 oh, I think I remember having to enable the time protocol on my host a while ago 17:52:57 Well, it should get the date from the host, but setting it up so it wont offer up the date as 2011... 17:53:03 workthrick: I thought it mentioned y2k explicitly 17:53:26 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:55:04 then it's wrong, since y2k had nothing to do with word widths 17:55:08 "may 10 1990 1:49pm" didn't make it happier. :( 17:55:26 cymew: again, if it asks about the date, it's lost already 17:55:47 Maybe I should look deeper into a spoofed time protocol instead. 17:56:34 antifuchs: besides, it's very probable that the problem is not at all in integers, and might well happen only in opengenera and not the real lispms. Notice how it's written for 64-bit machines, which don't have the problem of 32-bit number of seconds being too limiting 17:57:23 how do I append two lists? (xyz '(a b c) '(d e f)) -> (a b c d e f) ? 17:57:43 ezakimak: APPEND\ 17:57:46 s/\\// 17:57:51 it's not defined 17:57:53 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-157-247.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:58:13 oh. it got shadowed somehow 17:58:19 Looks like I'll have to put the kids to bed before delving deeper into genera... 17:58:19 I was about to ask 17:58:34 cymew: one of the many reasons not to have kids :) 17:59:08 :) 17:59:27 ezakimak: (concatenate 'list ) works too 17:59:37 how do I unshadow? 18:00:20 ezakimak: (progn (unintern 'mypkg:symbol) (import 'cl:append)) might work 18:00:23 not sure tho 18:00:31 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:00:53 i'm not sure how it got shadowed. i did :use cl already 18:01:28 kephas [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-7-84.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:02:21 -!- rmarynch [~roman@88.135.194.233] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:02:48 http://paste.lisp.org/display/121930 18:03:22 one is supposed to result in '(a () b) -> (a b), and the other '(a () b) -> (a nil b) 18:03:27 (doesn't matter which) 18:03:30 what am I missing? 18:03:39 (they both result in the former) 18:03:47 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.31.29] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:03:57 oh. wait. 18:04:14 nope. not quite 18:04:22 i fixed the recursion in flatten2 18:04:28 now I get (a nil b nil) 18:04:29 -!- nowhereman [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-10-176.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:04:37 almost 18:06:20 -!- tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 18:08:23 tomaw_ [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has joined #lisp 18:09:04 -!- gor[e] [~svr@79.165.187.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:09:47 glidesurfer [~rosario@77-64-171-36.dynamic.primacom.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:34 urandom__ [~user@p548A5C50.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:15:31 -!- tomaw_ is now known as tomaw 18:18:15 -!- joachifm [~joachim@85.17.232.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:18:17 Fade: installed and working ! Ok 18:18:22 -!- workthrick [~mathrick@130.226.87.177] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:18:30 Fade, Xach: thanks for suggestions 18:18:50 workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 18:20:58 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:21:43 -!- workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:22:53 -!- billitch [~billitch@78.250.223.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:24:18 n'p 18:24:34 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 18:27:19 what are the best methods to talk to mysql? 18:27:53 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-18-206.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:51 g'day 18:29:05 ezakimak: hello. 18:29:31 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 18:29:41 -!- Hunden [~Hunden@p5B106778.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:29:41 what are the best methods to talk to mysql? 18:30:01 ezakimak: hmmm.... I think CLSQL is the most supported backend 18:30:08 s/is/has/ 18:30:23 most developers seem to have moved to Postgres :) 18:30:31 ok. will look into clsql 18:30:35 well, most _lisp_ devs 18:30:41 Fade: it was implied 18:30:46 i'm quite familiar with mysql 18:30:51 the rest of the world still seems to use a lot of mysql, much to my chagrin. 18:30:55 and most that don't use CommonSQL, it should be 18:30:59 haven't taken the plunge to postgres yet 18:31:20 *ezakimak* was on mysql payroll for a while... 18:31:36 but, usually, there's a little line item bout php as a precursor to the mysql line. 18:31:53 hah. you can't equate the two 18:32:11 i've used php, python, C, C++ and soon lisp to talk to mysql 18:32:16 billitch [~billitch@78.250.213.166] has joined #lisp 18:32:16 I see smoke and expect fire, ezakimak :) 18:32:20 oh, and even some straight bash 18:32:42 You guys know Postrges was originally implemented in Lisp? 18:32:49 did not know that 18:32:51 cl-sql is the low level lib most of the higher level db interfaces use 18:32:57 so why the step backwards? 18:33:00 I did know that, actually 18:33:05 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@12.68.40.34] has joined #lisp 18:33:16 Apparently they converted to C via a mechanical Lisp to C compiler and just lived with the horrible resulting codebase. 18:33:28 the horror 18:33:39 Hunden [~Hunden@p5B1059C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:44 I wonder if the old lisp source is still in a public location somewhere. 18:33:47 i'd ask "why?" but probably wouldn't want to know or like the answer 18:34:11 I think they just decided that either they (the current grad students working on the project) or potential future contributors would be more happy working on C than Lisp. 18:34:36 i'd rather limit the worker pool to those willing to learn the better tool 18:34:50 which sort of translates to "the lispniks graduated and the new kids didn't like lisp" 18:35:13 Fade: that'd be my guess. Though I really don't know. 18:35:14 gigamonkey: Wasn't Postgres originally Ingres-derivative? 18:35:20 what are some of the other popular storage backends used w/lisp? 18:35:21 Odin-: I believe so. 18:35:28 gigamonkey: yeah 18:35:29 It was all Stonebreaker, right. 18:35:50 gigamonkey: the question is, when was the move? back in Ingres, postgres, or postgresql time? 18:36:02 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 18:36:07 Heh. Quote from #clojure "heh, those were the days. ... when men were men, and sbcl seemed like the best possible option" 18:36:09 gigamonkey: So the move was probably in Ingres time, since the current Ingres is C, IIRC... 18:36:53 varjag_ [~eugene@162.163.9.46.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 18:37:09 varjag__ [~eugene@162.163.9.46.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 18:38:34 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-165-4.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:38:34 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-204-121.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:38:36 any native lisp storage backends? (record-based for example)? 18:39:11 rucksack 18:39:34 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-204-121.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:46 i've heard of elephant 18:40:13 elephant is currently not working with quicklisp 18:40:20 which is becoming a serious indictment. 18:40:39 -!- varjag__ [~eugene@162.163.9.46.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Client Quit] 18:41:01 i haven't touched quicklisp yet (that I know of) 18:41:15 is rucksack mature/stable ? 18:41:19 yes 18:41:40 i'm trying to decide (as i'm still learning the language) what tools i'm gonna use for my projects 18:42:13 use quicklisp and you will be able to install/play with everything very easily. 18:42:16 i'm comfortable w/mysql, (and the benefit there is i can use other languages as well), but i also want to see what native lisp backend options are available and offer 18:42:21 well, except elephant. 18:42:29 Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:40 mysql is a well supported system in cl-sql. 18:42:41 is quicklisp an asdf successor? 18:43:11 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@12.68.40.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:43:40 No. 18:43:41 no 18:43:56 It replaces asdf-install, though, which is a good thing. :p 18:44:02 quicklisp is about getting software. asdf is about building it. 18:44:28 ok. so asdf is like make, quicklisp like package management? 18:44:33 yes 18:44:40 i don't see quicklisp in portage yet 18:44:52 Probably isn't. 18:44:55 quicklisp.org 18:44:55 guess I should bug the gentoo lisp devs 18:45:28 cd $HOME/src/lisp && wget http://beta.quicklisp.org/quicklisp.lisp && sbcl --no-userinit --load quicklisp.lisp 18:45:37 follow the prompts 18:46:54 will look into that 18:47:16 if you use clozure cl, you can just do: ccl -n --load http://beta.quicklisp.org/quicklisp.lisp 18:48:31 is clozure cl the cl->jvm thingy? 18:48:39 No. 18:48:42 no, that's clujure 18:48:44 clojure* 18:48:52 ah. lovely. hominyms 18:48:53 No, Clojure is not CL. 18:49:04 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-103-180.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:04 clozure cl is a common lisp implementation. 18:49:26 Someday they'll all merge and we can reach closure. 18:49:27 abcl (armed bear common lisp) is CL on JVM 18:49:27 how does it compare to sbcl? 18:49:27 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 18:49:40 different language 18:49:52 clozure cl is a very good environment with threading support everywhere it runs. 18:49:53 ChibaPet: I think he's talking about Clozure CL. 18:50:05 He was asking about both indirectly. 18:50:10 it compiles things faster than sbcl, but sbcl emits faster code. 18:50:10 i know clisp is only interpreted, correct? 18:50:18 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-142-14.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:50:20 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 18:50:43 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@chello062178064156.22.11.vie.surfer.at] has left #lisp 18:50:52 I'd say SBCL and Clozure are the two impls worth using these days unless you have some very specific reason for using another. 18:50:56 which one has greater compatiblity (re existing libraries i might encounter)- sbcl or clozure cl? 18:51:17 well, they're both basically compliant with the specification. 18:51:33 and they both ship extensions that exist only in their runtimes. 18:51:43 I'd have thought it'd be at a similar level. 18:52:17 All the portability thingies support both, and most of the actual libraries are built on top of those, right? 18:52:37 most popular libs tend to be portable between at least sbcl and ccl 18:52:41 -!- billitch [~billitch@78.250.213.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:52:47 clisp, too, I guess. 18:53:25 CLISP tends to be a bit idiosyncratic, in my experience. 18:53:25 kai_ [~kai@e179005235.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:53:34 -!- kai_ is now known as wetnosed 18:54:01 i'd agree with that. 18:54:17 ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.47.65] has joined #lisp 18:55:16 so, my take-away is prefer either clozure cl or sbcl 18:55:31 well, I'm on sbcl now, so I'm good for the moment 18:55:32 There is something about a software project that takes a religious symbol for a logo that makes me go "Uh ... right." 18:55:44 such as? 18:55:55 Such as clisp. 18:56:00 oh. 18:56:31 the candles 18:56:36 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:56:36 why's that matter? 18:57:01 it probably doesn't unless you're developing software in the middle east. 18:57:03 well, it's eccentric 18:57:10 probably not a huge deal for most, though 18:57:15 you could say that about most of gnu, no? 18:57:39 ezakimak: Doesn't, really. As I said, it makes me go ... "Uh ... right." Not much more than that. 18:57:58 i never would have noticed had it not been brought up :) 18:58:01 ezakimak: Well, the difference is that GNU's eccentricity revolves around the software itself. 18:58:23 though, of course, sbcl's death-kitten is even more surprising :) 18:58:23 i love linus's take on the gnu coding style guide. lol. 18:58:31 boy, this is the second menorah discussion today. 18:58:40 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 18:58:41 *Fade* declares menorahs to be OT 18:59:27 Fade: Really? I'm sorry for bringing it up. I just found it rather in tune with the 'idiosyncratic' comment... 18:59:58 there's no doubt it's peculiar, but the line doesn't really lead anywhere interesting. :) 19:00:16 am I correct in saying that w/lisps' simpler syntax, the possible variations in coding style are greatly reduced? 19:00:21 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:00:29 Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:00:46 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:00:56 Well, there's a largely canonical indentation style, if that's what you mean. 19:01:17 ezakimak: "Don't bother, emacs will handle it for you." 19:01:20 :p 19:01:24 i just let emacs lisp-mode do it for me, and I assume it's in line with at least one commonly accepted style guide 19:01:25 -!- cymew [~davour@c83-255-37-246.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:01:56 I think there's actually advice along those lines in at least one popular CL book. :/ 19:02:06 billitch [~billitch@78.250.208.136] has joined #lisp 19:02:51 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81ED20.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:04:33 back to stretching my brain... 19:04:48 xan_ [~xan@adsl-76-254-70-213.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:12 workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 19:06:00 sellout- [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:33 Hm. I suspect that slimv.vim doesn't get a lot of testing in a no-X Vim environment. 19:11:19 muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:54 Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@1807ds2-noe.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 19:16:19 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:16:30 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-46-185.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:16:57 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-46-185.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has left #lisp 19:17:09 carlocci [~nes@93.37.178.145] has joined #lisp 19:17:28 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:44 xpf [~xpf@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 19:19:05 *nikodemus* points to https://github.com/nikodemus/slime/tree/slime-indentation which fixes several indentation issues 19:19:33 it's an important step towards a more canonical indentation style! 19:20:40 ie. canonical style is whatever autoindentation does as long as it is good. for things which autoindentation isn't good there is no canonical style 19:21:28 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:24:35 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-204-121.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:25:21 pnq [~nick@AC813B0A.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 19:25:48 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-204-121.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:03 francogrex [~user@109.130.31.29] has joined #lisp 19:27:25 -!- billitch [~billitch@78.250.208.136] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:28:41 stis [~stis@host-90-232-241-255.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 19:28:48 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:30:14 can't get my head around merge still: Merge the sequences SEQUENCE1 and SEQUENCE2 destructively into a sequence of type RESULT-TYPE using PREDICATE to order the elements. 19:30:33 (merge 'list (list 0 2.1 2 1.7 3) '(1 7 0 4 13) #'<) -> (0 1 2.1 2 1.7 3 7 0 4 13) ? 19:31:20 expected a properly sorted list 19:31:20 francogrex: Merge isn't sort. 19:31:40 but what is it? what oh what? 19:31:51 francogrex: merge. 19:32:02 the result would be sorted if the argument were sorted 19:32:03 francogrex: It just uses the predicate to figure out where to insert the elements of the second sequence into the first. 19:32:03 I've been through the whole specs and it's the only one that is odd 19:32:59 sellout-: ok, but why didn't it insert the zero earlier in the merged list then? 19:33:14 francogrex: Efficiency  it only walks each list once. 19:33:20 the second 0 I mean 19:33:40 If the 0 is after the 7 in the input list, it should be after the 7 in the output. 19:33:51 hmm 19:34:16 it only walks each list once... that's what I was missing 19:34:29 billitch [~billitch@78.250.220.86] has joined #lisp 19:34:34 francogrex: You either want to sort first or just (sort (append )) 19:34:40 the idea of merge is that it has constant memory complexity and linear time complexity, the rest sort of follows 19:34:41 francogrex: basically it probably doesn't do anything useful if the sequences aren't sorted. 19:34:52 they ask this stuff at interviews! 19:35:19 right right, ok... cmm no that's too specific 19:35:20 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:35:21 steevy [~steevy@95-89-223-125-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 19:35:24 -!- steevy [~steevy@95-89-223-125-dynip.superkabel.de] has left #lisp 19:36:56 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host120-178-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:38:07 brodo_ [~brodo@p5B023C29.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:09 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 19:38:19 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-157-247.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:40:41 -!- brodo [~brodo@p5B02355B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:40:41 -!- brodo_ is now known as brodo 19:42:27 nikodemus: I saw a recent commit message for Slime about indentation fixes. 19:42:52 macrocat [~marmalade@99.192.111.126] has joined #lisp 19:42:54 ... have all your changes been merged into slime? 19:43:06 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-165-4.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:43:41 merged and sorted as well 19:43:45 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-157-247.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:44:37 rudi [~rudi@cm-84.208.89.228.getinternet.no] has joined #lisp 19:44:58 -!- brodo [~brodo@p5B023C29.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:45:53 reb`: not yet 19:47:20 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.31.29] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:47:38 what's the diff between returning with (values x y) vs just returning a (list x y) ? 19:48:49 reb`: only thing that i've committed to CVS so far was the fix to make custom indentation hints work right via *application-hint-tables*. there's 9 patches waiting 19:48:53 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-180-235.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:49:54 gigamonkey: hi 19:50:07 Hello. 19:50:15 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [] 19:50:59 lo 19:51:29 ezakimak: (list x y) returns one list. (values x y) returns two values. 19:51:54 you should check out Practical Common Lisp. 19:52:22 yes, I realize it's a diff. mechanism, but don't both yield the same ability? 19:52:29 no 19:52:38 the (list ...) form returns one value 19:52:45 that value is a list containing x and y 19:52:48 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-180-235.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:52:57 (values ...) returns two values, x and y 19:53:10 the caller could do (multiple-value-bind x1 y1) or (setf x1 (first lst) y1 (rest lst)), no? 19:53:10 play with it at the repl to see the difference. 19:54:09 sure, but the (values ...) form will work in a single assignment context. 19:54:39 gigamonkey: How long do you expect CQ proposals to be? 19:54:47 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 19:54:50 (let ((y (my-form-returning-multiple-values))) (pprint y)) 19:54:54 i see there are tradeoffs between the syntax required to use one vs the other, but I guess what I'm asking is they both achieve the ability to return multiple items from a function call 19:55:17 see above 19:55:40 ezakimak: if, e.g., cl:floor returned its values as a list, you couldn't say (* 2 (floor 3.4)) 19:55:52 ^^ 19:56:25 now that's a better example. 19:56:30 right, so there's syntax advantages. but you could do (* 2 (first (floor 3.4))) if it were a list 19:56:52 well, you 'could' do whatever you want 19:56:56 Yes, but that would suck. 19:57:02 hell, if you wre really mad, you could do it in java. ;) 19:57:15 ok, so i guees I've answered my own question, w/o helping you guys understand it =) 19:57:36 but functions returning multiple values is one of the unique features of lisp. 19:57:49 it's not unique 19:57:50 -!- workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:57:58 (Also, returning a list necessarily conses; multiple values might not.) 19:58:00 but yes, it is a nice feature 19:58:19 workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 19:58:25 what other languages can return more than one value without wrapping it up in some struct? i guess maybe smalltalk 19:58:25 rme, that's another good point 19:58:27 limetree [~simon@c-23e8e155.1226-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:58:36 dylan 19:58:38 ah. caveat. 19:58:41 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:58:53 well, you can do tuples in C++ via templates 19:59:17 -!- rudi [~rudi@cm-84.208.89.228.getinternet.no] has quit [Quit: Client exciting.] 19:59:27 can I in CL work with 32-bit integers that silently overflow, like in C? 19:59:31 how the compiler does that internally who knows. maybe it translates to wrapping it in a struct. i dunno. 20:00:05 kushal [~kdas@114.143.164.88] has joined #lisp 20:00:05 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.164.88] has quit [Changing host] 20:00:05 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 20:00:13 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Client Quit] 20:00:23 limetree: (logand #xFFFFFFFF (+ a b)) can compile to very fast code in sbcl. 20:00:28 limetree: you need explicit mod or logand (masking) to have wrap-around; integers are specified to work like integers in CL. 20:00:32 sellout: these days, not long. 20:00:47 ok, thanks 20:00:56 Basically I'm pretty liberal in what I accept and then I beat people up during the editing process. 20:01:05 -!- workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:01:14 -!- euphidime [u178@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pgasyabyktnubkby] has quit [Quit: Connection reset by zombie] 20:01:14 workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 20:01:14 That said, if you really put some work into the proposal it's usually effort well spent. 20:03:02 sellout: that said, I have yet to get an article all the way through the editing process. 20:03:06 I may suck as an editor. 20:03:06 rolf [~rolf@98.54.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:03:07 And signed versions of overflowing? 20:03:45 What's CQ? 20:03:55 ChibaPet: http://www.codequarterly.com 20:04:26 gigamonkey: Good points  I'll work on making something with a bit of meat to it. Give you more to tear apart ;) 20:05:06 -!- rolf is now known as rrb_no 20:05:10 sellout: what's your topic? 20:05:31 I'm glad you're doing it as a quarterly. I can't see anything more frequent being viable. That said, it looks fun. 20:05:32 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:05:39 gigamonkey: I doubt it. When my wife was commissioning editor she found it very difficult to get highly-motivated, well-compensated writing professionals with vast resources at their disposal to finish their tasks... 20:07:11 Ironically, of all the folks I have writing for me know, perhaps the most energetic of them is the guy with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. :-| 20:07:16 s/know/now/ 20:07:17 -!- billitch [~billitch@78.250.220.86] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:07:32 quite the irony 20:07:45 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 20:08:13 laziness is a programmer virtue :> 20:08:46 or bain. 20:09:37 lets not forget epic distraction syndrome. 20:10:02 yep. 20:10:08 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:10:09 nikodemus_ [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:10:38 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:10:50 sometimes i just avert from a tough problem and have to let it marinate for a few days at the back of my mind. some employers don't like that. 20:11:00 -!- glidesurfer [~rosario@77-64-171-36.dynamic.primacom.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:11:02 Do you work in an emergency room? 20:11:11 fortunately no 20:11:13 lol 20:11:19 gigamonkey: not really, I have been fighting Idiopathic CNS Hypersomnia for years now and the only time that I am not falling asleep, is when I am knee deep into something that I find very interesting 20:12:10 wow. that's quite the life challenge. 20:12:45 anything that I find boring or overly repetitive will put me to sleep in less than 10-15 minutes, if I do not fight it 20:13:26 yeah, it sucks sometimes, as reading can be quite challenging 20:13:36 prolonged reading, that is 20:14:02 cymew [~davour@c83-255-37-246.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:14:10 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:14:35 i imagine driving too far could be a problem as well? 20:15:44 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:15:48 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 20:16:17 yep, I used to drive 120 miles (round trip) per day for eight years at my last job and it almost killed me, as I blacked out driving home one day and ran off the road going 75mph 20:18:21 as a result, I quit my job as a CTO for a small ASP about 3 years ago, so that I could work from home as a freelance web developer 20:18:52 the commute is much nicer now :) 20:19:04 saves a lot of gas too. 20:19:31 gigamonkey, hi peter 20:19:37 yep, that too 20:20:35 -!- cymew [~davour@c83-255-37-246.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:20:59 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:20:59 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:21:38 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@124-168-220-216.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 20:22:56 -!- naiv [~naiv@ARennes-553-1-161-220.w86-214.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:23:42 gigamonkey: needless to say, I can empathise with that author, as I don't think that I could write non-code productively under those conditions 20:25:38 now that I am starting to get back into lisp, lets hope that it does not put me to sleep like ruby does :) 20:26:49 just do more cool things in lisp, publish them, and achieve lemondor-fame 20:27:17 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A5C50.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:27:24 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:28:45 markskilbeck [~mark@host86-158-169-108.range86-158.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:28:45 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@host86-158-169-108.range86-158.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 20:28:45 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 20:30:13 ubii: hah, when working on ruby projects I was surprised that ruby seems to be slower when loading large code bases than even sbcl (-: 20:30:27 I'm guessing it probably won't put you to sleep (; 20:31:18 not really feeling the love from ruby these days, which is why I am starting to dig back into lisp 20:31:20 -!- rrb_no [~rolf@98.54.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:31:40 all the cool ruby kids are on clojure and node.js nowadays! 20:32:10 -!- leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:32:47 (and common lisp, obviously) 20:32:52 I am guilty of looking at both of late, but plan to focus my attention on lisp 20:33:10 nothing to feel guilty about 20:33:16 they're all very interesting 20:33:37 many guilty things are interesting 20:34:05 wetnosed_ [~kai@f052099121.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:34:09 felideon [~felideon@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:12 they're interesting and they allow you to make better decisions 20:34:29 *felideon* just received an email from antifuchs 20:34:32 :P 20:34:38 just meant that I wasn't a mindless lemming following the rest of the ruby crowd, off the proverbial cliff 20:34:39 oho! 20:34:47 *antifuchs* grins 20:35:03 is there any documentation on the slime/swank protocol? 20:35:07 no 20:35:14 use the code 20:35:45 -!- wetnosed [~kai@e179005235.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:35:51 gigamonkey: Probably some process calculi stuff. I kind of have a big space that I'm trying to distill something specific from. 20:36:01 what are you doing that you need swank-protocol documentation? 20:36:38 stassats: trying to debug a swank server for mit-scheme. it seems the protocol has changed a bit since that file was written... 20:36:55 do you really want to use mit-scheme? 20:37:01 i do ;) 20:37:39 why? slime supports other schemes 20:38:25 all the code i write is for mit-scheme 20:38:32 sellout: okay. knowing only that, I'd say, try to find ways to draw out practicality and utility 20:39:25 -!- ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.47.65] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:39:27 Basic rule for CQ: abstract/theoretical topics must be treated from a practical point of view; practical/utilitarian topics must be treated with reference to theory. 20:40:03 when will the first issue be available? 20:40:11 stassats: I wish I knew. ;-) 20:40:22 Currently I'm working on getting 2-4 articles up on the web. 20:40:35 I'm hoping that'll be in a matter of weeks. 20:40:55 I'll do an actual issue once I've got enough stuff ready. 20:41:33 there is no mit-scheme for amd64 debian 20:41:55 here goes my attempt at trying to run swank-mit-scheme and looking what's up 20:42:54 -!- Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:43:04 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:43:20 dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has joined #lisp 20:43:41 ecraven: that's why i was wondering why you chose mit-scheme, because it doesn't seem to be well-maintained 20:44:10 -!- dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has left #lisp 20:44:12 stassats: there is a working amd64 mit-scheme. probably noone bothered to package it for debian. arch linux has a pkgbuild, for example 20:45:08 i'm not interested enough in fixing swank-mit-scheme to bother 20:46:01 billitch [~billitch@78.251.151.159] has joined #lisp 20:46:52 ecraven: what version of slime are you using? 20:46:56 glidesurfer [~rosario@77-64-171-36.dynamic.primacom.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:23 stassats: how do i find out? 20:48:37 markskilbeck [~mark@host86-158-169-108.range86-158.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:48:37 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@host86-158-169-108.range86-158.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 20:48:37 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 20:48:38 ecraven: M-x slime-changelog-date 20:48:42 -!- pnq [~nick@AC813B0A.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:49:00 i don't even have that function :) seems it's old.. let me check which package it is from 20:49:31 yes, that means it's too old 20:49:32 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:49:40 is there a slime that is packaged with emacs-git? 20:49:42 update it and mit-scheme should work better 20:49:57 package seems to be 2.0-9 20:50:12 urandom__ [~user@p548A3822.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:12 you gotta be kidding! 20:50:15 updating to slime-cvs now. that might be the root of my problems :) 20:51:46 -!- ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has left #lisp 20:55:22 Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:00:13 ooh, this is very nice! thanks for the tip, stassats! 21:01:40 Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:13 nikodemus: thanks 21:02:24 *stassats* thinks that he really needs to polish his swank-gauche and commit it 21:03:15 If anyone wants to actually document the swank protocol, that would be nice, too. 21:03:29 *splittist* is always happy to hand out homework... 21:03:45 it's actually quite simple 21:04:39 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 21:05:36 hi. anybody else with commit problems on c-l.net? I've got a mail directly to me from a single user. Any others? 21:05:59 how do i get a *slime-repl* buffer? 21:06:19 ecraven: use slime-fancy contrib, which also enables slime-repl contrib 21:06:33 and you'll get (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) 21:08:22 ah, mit-scheme's swank doesn't support swank:swank-require. well, another day. auto-completion works nicely :) 21:12:10 naiv [~naiv@ARennes-553-1-203-105.w2-10.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:15:17 rme_ [~rme@pool-70-104-127-9.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:00 -!- rme [rme@clozure-2F7D417A.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 21:16:01 -!- rme_ is now known as rme 21:17:17 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-104-127-159.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:17:17 -!- rme_ is now known as rme 21:19:03 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:19:51 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 21:20:19 pnq [~nick@ACA22D9D.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 21:21:14 -!- stis [~stis@host-90-232-241-255.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:21:59 -!- sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:23:09 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:23:09 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@h34n1c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Quit: add^_] 21:31:16 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:31:40 ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.47.65] has joined #lisp 21:32:09 -!- ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.47.65] has quit [Client Quit] 21:32:49 ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.47.65] has joined #lisp 21:34:32 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA22D9D.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:35:51 hi 21:36:03 please how can I use xor for t nil values? 21:36:30 (not (eql x y)). 21:37:30 pkhuong: ok, but there's anything like logxor? 21:37:48 pnq [~nick@AC8181C3.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 21:38:05 neq. (defun neq (x y) (not (eq x y))). 21:38:46 tempire [~tempire@pool-72-91-241-135.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:49 (defun xor (a b) (and (or a b) (not (and a b)) (not (and (not a) (not b)))))? :> 21:39:20 wait, i don't even need that or then, do i? 21:40:33 (or (and a (not b)) (and (not a) b)) 21:41:39 (not (eq (not a) (not b))) (: 21:41:45 ramus_ [~ramus@99.44.154.243] has joined #lisp 21:42:12 -!- nikodemus_ [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:42:17 -!- pnq [~nick@AC8181C3.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:42:35 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-191-189.w2-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:43:16 (not (eq a b)) :> 21:44:53 -!- ramus [~ramus@adsl-108-68-163-173.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:44:55 Landr: fails on generalized booleans. 21:45:25 well, there's only T or nil 21:45:33 otherwise we're not dealing with boolean logic to begin with =P 21:45:37 there is only nil and everything else 21:45:49 fuzzy 21:46:04 paul0 [~user@189.114.196.61.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 21:46:26 nikodemus_ [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 21:46:42 Landr: not at all. 21:46:50 -!- sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:47:09 (defun xor (a b) (flet ((binary (x) (if x 1 0))) (plusp (logxor (binary a) (binary b))))) 21:47:40 -!- udzinari` [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit:     ] 21:47:41 -!- varjag_ [~eugene@162.163.9.46.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:48:52 -!- workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:50:06 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 21:50:31 (defun xor (a b) (not (eql (not a) (not b)))) 21:50:53 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:51:03 ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:51:19 stassats: same number of function calls, but not and eql are simplier functions than binary, plusp and logxor. They'll probably be better optimized. 21:51:55 jmbr [~jmbr@39.205.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:51:59 you'd have to inline binary, but otherwise it's pretty much the same code on SBCL. 21:52:09 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:52:32 *stassats* forgot NOT-SERIOUS declaration 21:53:50 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A3822.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:53:54 francogrex [~user@109.130.31.29] has joined #lisp 21:57:03 -!- ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.47.65] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:57:38 -!- ramus_ [~ramus@99.44.154.243] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 21:57:55 ramus [~ramus@99.44.154.243] has joined #lisp 21:58:45 is there a weblocks-specific channel somewhere? 22:03:28 tempire: No. 22:03:48 tempire: The google group tends to be friendly and well-serviced though. 22:04:13 well then 22:04:39 I'm a n00b, beginning what is looking to be a love affair with lisp and functional programming 22:05:25 bzzbzz_ [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:05:27 but I'm having a hell of time with my env working properly 22:05:35 I get this, A LOT: 22:05:36 "The loaded code expects an incompatible layout for class SB-PRETTY:PRETTY-STREAM. 22:05:37 [Condition of type SIMPLE-ERROR]" 22:06:16 usually when trying to load weblocks 22:06:18 -!- Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.25.8] has quit [Quit: Ave Atque Vale] 22:06:30 something redefines sb-pretty:pretty-stream 22:07:21 hmm, so loading something twice could cause that? 22:07:32 tempire: Seems like a new issue. Post about it: http://groups.google.com/group/weblocks 22:07:35 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:07:36 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 22:08:02 does loading weblocks include loading slime? very old slime? 22:08:03 tempire: It never happens when you initially load weblocks? 22:08:52 it's a recent version of swank. I'm using slimv. 22:09:15 redline6561: sometimes it happens when I initially load it. 22:09:35 for example, I just started sbcl from the command line, and issued a "(ql:quickload "weblocks") 22:09:46 Cool. A noob slimv user. The lisp world is a changin! :) 22:09:55 I tried emacs 22:09:58 I really really tried 22:10:04 not really 22:10:36 but vim is in my dna 22:10:37 stassats: fair. first time I've heard it in person. 22:11:02 you've come to it with a predisposition, and the outcome is expected 22:11:08 indeed 22:12:06 I am but a humble function :) 22:12:47 anyway, one of the slime contribs used to produce such error 22:12:47 could the sb-pretty:pretty-stream have something to do with cached fasl files? 22:13:41 it has something to do with some brain-damaged code which thinks it's ok to redefine the implementation 22:13:54 ah, I just say it in the debugger retry option - "Retry Loading component: ("cl-ppcre" "api")" 22:13:57 *saw 22:14:37 cddr [~user@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:38 hrm, through swank, it seems to be ("trivial-backtrace" "dev" "backtrace") 22:14:46 tempire: how did you get weblocks? 22:14:52 quicklisp 22:15:10 -!- xan_ [~xan@adsl-76-254-70-213.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:15:32 tempire: Just for giggles what version of SBCL are you running? Also, what happens if you don't use swank/slimv and just do (ql:quickload "weblocks") in a terminal? 22:15:40 *sbcl that is 22:15:42 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:16:22 SBCL 1.0.45 22:16:27 tempire: Sounds a lot more like swank/slimv is your problem than anything else. 22:16:50 the Retry Loading component: ("cl-ppcre" "api") problem happens with sbcl from the terminal 22:17:32 Is it possible you have non-quicklisp systems interfering? 22:17:41 e.g. old stuff from the distro? 22:18:27 Or something from asdf-install or copied and symlinked into asdf:*central-registry* somewhere? 22:19:50 -!- Landr [~user@dD5770D30.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:21:21 -!- billitch [~billitch@78.251.151.159] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:21:29 ah, that's probably it, the quicklisp dir that weblocks installed to onto asdf:*central-registry* 22:21:30 HET2 [~diman@nat66.mia.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:22:15 since it seems that should prevent me from having to (ql:quickload "weblocks") 22:22:18 Good morning everyone! 22:22:33 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:22:33 hello beach 22:22:47 muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:58 but weblocks commands aren't available, so I'm not sure what the purpose of that is at all. 22:24:00 do you load slime-presentation-streams contrib, perchance? 22:24:17 no 22:24:29 turns out, it's still broken 22:24:31 the only thing I'm loading specifically is quicklisp from .sbclrc 22:24:55 ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.47.65] has joined #lisp 22:25:17 tempire: what does (asdf:system-source-directory 'cl-ppcre) return? 22:25:45 antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:25:45 #P"/Users/glen/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/cl-ppcre-2.0.3/" 22:26:10 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-130-167.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:08 -!- felideon [~felideon@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has left #lisp 22:27:28 cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 22:27:28 rvirding [~chatzilla@h134n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 22:28:01 xan_ [~xan@adsl-99-154-113-157.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:09 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:28:43 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.31.29] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:29:30 -!- kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:30:00 am I correct in saying that swank and terminal sbcl have no interaction at all? 22:30:33 markskilbeck [~mark@host81-132-124-40.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:30:33 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@host81-132-124-40.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 22:30:33 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 22:30:35 they shouldn't 22:30:38 normally 22:31:48 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.77.67] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:32:14 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.87.113] has joined #lisp 22:32:25 what about the fasl files that are generated? are there sometimes related issues switching back and forth between term sblc and swank? 22:33:04 not only swank can cause this error 22:35:03 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:36:17 billitch [~billitch@78.251.151.159] has joined #lisp 22:41:45 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 22:41:56 Sgeo [~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:41 -!- HET2 [~diman@nat66.mia.three.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:45:05 -!- Sgeo is now known as Gseo 22:45:39 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 22:46:34 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:48:15 -!- cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:48:39 cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 22:49:29 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 22:49:43 HET2 [~diman@nat66.mia.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:51:54 -!- rdd [~user@c83-250-52-16.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:53:56 felideon [~felideon@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:30 -!- billitch [~billitch@78.251.151.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:57:45 -!- cddr [~user@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:59:14 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.220.202] has joined #lisp 23:01:21 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-103-180.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:01:22 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 23:02:18 Is there any way to treat macros like first-class values? 23:02:28 *Gseo* guesses no 23:02:55 <_3b> depends on what you mean 23:03:11 Gseo: they are just functions 23:03:23 CL-USER> (defmacro backwards (expr) (reverse expr)) 23:03:23 BACKWARDS 23:03:23 CL-USER> #'backwards 23:03:27 That didn't work 23:03:36 Gseo: they are called differently 23:03:36 <_3b> probably better to ask if it is possible to do whatever it is you are trying to do, rather than asking about the specific way you tried to do it 23:04:04 _3b, I'm not trying to do anything other than explore what the language can and can't do easily 23:04:05 <_3b> you need to use macro-function, not function 23:04:36 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 23:04:38 <_3b> and you need to call it correctly 23:04:56 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-248-147.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 23:05:13 <_3b> and unless you are doing something very odd, there isn't much reason to want to do that... better to just write a function in teh first place 23:05:15 Gseo: (funcall (symbol-function 'backwards) '(backwards (1 2 +))) 23:05:31 -!- felideon [~felideon@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:05:50 <_3b> pjb: not portably 23:06:06 <_3b> s/symbol-function/macro-function/ would be portable 23:06:14 macro-function, and you need to pass it an environment 23:06:24 Gseo: sorry, it's (funcall (macro-function 'backwards) '(backwards (1 2 +)) nil) 23:06:39 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 23:08:38 <_3b> you could also just call macroexpand on the form, and let that deal with it 23:08:40 Gseo: but really, there's an API to do that: (macroexpand '(backwards (1 2 +))) 23:12:57 -!- HET2 [~diman@nat66.mia.three.co.uk] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:12:59 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-175-23.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:14:09 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.214.34] has joined #lisp 23:14:30 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@c-24-21-133-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 23:15:11 -!- xan_ [~xan@adsl-99-154-113-157.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:15:17 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-21-133-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:48 "Number too large to print in English" 23:15:49 BOOOOO 23:15:54 >.> 23:16:31 Gseo: ANSI Common Lisp specifies American English Numbers. If it was European English Numbers, it would go about square the exponents. 23:16:55 (Unless you're in the City of London). 23:17:30 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.220.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:17:31 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 23:17:56 Gseo: now, printing numbers is a beginner's exercise in any Lisp NLP introduction, you can write your own up to any exponents you want. 23:19:31 -!- tty234 [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-pnjkimxfflqcqqhb] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:19:44 tty234 [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-sdeiypgfuqdbqhrp] has joined #lisp 23:21:38 roman numerals are even more limited 23:22:16 -!- bzzbzz_ [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:24:49 Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@209-195-86-24.cpe.distributel.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:30 Gseo: what number was too large? 23:25:43 (expt 2 128) 23:26:05 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:26:17 -!- Gseo is now known as Sgeo 23:26:42 Hmmm. Get a better Lisp. SBCL handles it fin. 23:26:44 fine. 23:27:27 Blargh 23:28:10 How well does SBCL work on Windows, and how much effort will it be to get working, considering that right now I'm using LispBox and my emacs familiarity ends with "I know how to save stuff" 23:28:20 Erm, and some window manipulation 23:28:28 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:28:44 Sgeo: for Windows I'd probably use Clozure CL (i.e. the Lisp implementation named Clozure, not the language Clojure) 23:29:01 gigamonkey, that's what I'm using now 23:29:21 (It's what LispBox comes with) 23:30:33 -!- benny [~benny@i577A84C3.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:31:41 Is there an easier way to include a newline in a string other than typing the newline out, or using (format nil "First line~%Second line")? 23:31:45 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:32:05 Which LispBox? (They're all more or less out of date these days, sadly.) 23:32:46 Anyway, I suspect these days if you do a binary install of plain old Emacs and install a Lisp, then use Quicklisp (as you should for all your library obtaining needs) to get SLIME, it should be pretty painless. 23:33:11 Sgeo: you can go with CL-INTERPOL 23:33:16 http://common-lisp.net/project/lispbox/ 23:33:33 Sgeo: what would be easier than typing the newline in the string? 23:34:28 Good point >.>. I guess I'm use to using \n. I think Erlang has both a newline thing in its format equiv., and a string syntax that accepts \n. No idea why. 23:34:41 I'd imagine something like http://www.emotiv.com/ but right now, they seem to require a lot of concentration. Compared to letting the right pinky down... 23:35:23 Sgeo: you can easily write or fetch from cll, a reader macro that will read strings with C-like escapes. 23:36:02 But it'd be useful only if you had a ton of C strings to reuse in a CL program, with a lot of C escapes. 23:43:20 -!- limetree [~simon@c-23e8e155.1226-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:44:03 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:46:17 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:46:50 sakekasi [~sakekasi@99-28-149-24.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:47:06 is there a built in lisp function to deep copy an array? 23:47:45 -!- churib [~churib@95.156.194.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:48:36 -!- ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.47.65] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:48:46 churib [~churib@95.156.194.105] has joined #lisp 23:49:23 pjb wouldnt \n become n before the string even reaches reader macro? 23:49:28 -!- pdo [~pdo@217.33.254.141] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:51:53 Sgeo: also, check out http://weitz.de/cl-interpol/ 23:52:16 Sgeo: that gives you way more than just c-like escapes (: 23:52:45 hsrt: if you make your own string-reading reader macro, you can have it define how each character interacts with each other. 23:53:41 i see interesting 23:54:41 sakekasi: No, because it is not well defined what it means to copy things. It depends on the application. 23:55:06 you can read from the stream char by char, so all string reading rules are out (: 23:55:22 beach, so I have to write my own right? 23:55:41 sakekasi: Yes, but it is important that you understand why. 23:55:49 cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.139.219.67] has joined #lisp 23:55:56 is there a similar library that makes \ a literal instead of an escaping character? to make regex strings shorter 23:56:10 beach, can you explain? 23:56:45 sakekasi: Suppose your array contains people. You want to copy each person, right. The person has an employer, so you copy the employer as well. The employer is in a city, so you copy the city as well. The city contains other companies, so you copy them as well, etc, etc. 23:57:20 hsrt: cl-interpol is designed to do just that 23:57:26 it's a perfect companion to cl-ppcre 23:57:32 (also ediware (-:) 23:57:53 ah nice 23:58:33 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@39.205.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:59:11 sakekasi: Semantically, copying doesn't make much sense. If you think you need to copy things, most of the time, you have got the wrong abstractions in your application. 23:59:19 -!- pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has left #lisp