00:01:17 -!- basho__ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-152-151.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:01:51 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:02:29 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:34 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:11:12 -!- xan_ [~xan@199.83.221.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:14:26 -!- alama [~alama@86.93.35.187] has quit [Quit: alama] 00:16:23 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h134n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 00:17:44 Given the speed of machines these days, is there any reason for an implementation to NOT always compile? I notice clozure and sbcl always compile, but lispworks doesn't. 00:17:55 longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has joined #lisp 00:18:26 asher9: That argument could go the other way around :P 00:18:41 Given the speed of machines these days, why bother compiling? 00:19:15 Well in the absence of a source-level debugger, I see no advantage of not compiling. 00:19:33 asher9: bytecoded/threaded implementation might 1) easier 2) might provide ISA-independence 3) can provide instrumentation et al. that might be hard with native code 00:20:05 and some interpretation techniques and downsides are very well supported by fast modern machines. 00:23:41 asher9: probably one of the most useful targets is a bytecode intermediary that can be interpreted, JITed (JVM, Dis, Dalvik, .NET CLR etc.), or compiled into native before or on execution (AS/400 aka System i, .NET CLR) 00:24:39 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-187-255.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:26:22 Well compiling to bytecode normally called compiling. 00:26:29 anyway, for me, the best reason for doing it bytecoded is that it's much, much easier to deal with various things 00:29:19 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@host86-136-49-89.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:30:18 I brought this up because testing something in lispworks was hundreds of times slower, and then I noticed it wasn't compiled. If lispworks is compiling to bytecode then their VM is terrible. But I guess it's rather in some format for source-level debugging. 00:31:20 That is, if uncompiled means compiled-to-bytecode. 00:31:48 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.80.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:33:04 Mococa [~Mococa@187.59.207.229] has joined #lisp 00:33:26 uncompiled is probably an sexp-level interpreter. 00:33:37 From what I've seen so far in lisps: uncompiled means some debuggable format; compiled means bytecode or native format. 00:33:43 might or might not include macroexpansion. 00:33:57 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.80.26] has joined #lisp 00:34:03 SBCL's interpreter is probably less debuggable than compiled code. 00:34:42 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl21-92-71.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 00:34:48 I've not seen anything along the lines of "uncompiled = bytecode", so I don't understand p_l|backup's comments. 00:35:24 cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.139.98.69] has joined #lisp 00:35:50 it's a more in the large comment, concerning what could be rather than only what is. 00:35:57 asher9: heh, I'm biased. I find bytecoded implementation to be too obvious to remember the case of "walk the AST", despite programming in Ruby. 00:36:19 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.82.92.71] has joined #lisp 00:38:41 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.133.196] has joined #lisp 00:39:00 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.12.183] has joined #lisp 00:45:18 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-4-251.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 00:55:17 zmv [~daniel@c9533906.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 01:00:08 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:02:47 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:03:24 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:59 mauryck [~mauryck@bard-nynt4-172.bard.edu] has joined #lisp 01:08:00 necroforest [~jarred@pool-72-66-96-115.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:09:55 When you've run out of horizontal space, is the indentation "(foo bar\n baz)" preferred over "(foo\n bar baz)", or does that depend on other factors? I normally go with the former unless it is awkward or inconvenient compared to the latter. 01:10:11 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-4-251.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has left #lisp 01:12:10 Like if "(foo\n bar ...)" can fit on two lines but "(foo bar\n baz \n ...)" needs several lines, I'll use the former. 01:16:05 I used both, depends on the situation 01:16:06 *use 01:16:41 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:20:07 I can sympathize with Paul Graham in using short names since running out of horizontal space is generally bad, but he probably takes the shortness to far :) 01:20:10 *too far 01:22:49 jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has joined #lisp 01:24:25 asher9: when I run out of horizontal space, I tend to take the "(foo\n bar\n baz\n quux)" approach - basically, I either fit all the arguments on the one line, or put them all on separate lines. I've found that if I take the middle ground and split a multi-argument function call mid-line, I tend to miss things when re-reading it later. 01:24:45 -!- orivej [~orivej@host-47-146-66-217.spbmts.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:26:24 -!- argiopeweb is now known as argiopeweb-acqui 01:26:26 orivej [~orivej@host-90-146-66-217.spbmts.ru] has joined #lisp 01:30:22 jfleming: If (a b c d e f) doesn't fit, but "(a\n b c d e f)" does, you would nonetheless use six lines? 01:31:22 asher9: actually, I'd probably break that into two lines, yes. 01:32:58 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:33:06 In that case, all the arguments are on the same line, so I still know they're all there. It's not a matter of fanatically sticking with arbitrary rules, as dealing with the fact that I'm an idiot and prone to missing non-obvious stuff. So I make it all as obvious as I can :) 01:33:43 I guess my question is whether the "normal" way to break up a too-long (a b c) is "(a\n b c)" or "(a b\n c)". 01:34:18 I've seen both 01:37:16 asher9: You do whatever is the most readable, it depends 01:38:05 asher9: you may have noticed a flagrant disregard for "normal" hereabouts. The best overall suggestion I can make is to aim for readability, bearing in mind the degree to which the indentation helps. 01:40:35 -!- _pw_ [~user@123.112.69.29] has left #lisp 01:40:44 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 01:41:19 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@bb116-15-185-57.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 01:42:36 -!- argiopeweb-acqui is now known as argiopeweb 01:42:47 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 01:43:58 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:44:53 ok thanks. some languages have conventions which resemble religion; I guess there isn't a paren-indent religion, which is good. 01:45:23 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.82.92.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:46:43 asher9: I think the closest you'll find to that is in the different ways Vim and Emacs tend to indent things, and the generalised principle of sticking with the existing style when contributing to somebody else's code. Lisp's protean nature, and CL's practicality, tend to pervade a person's mindset. 01:46:55 -!- splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:47:28 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:47:32 Certainly, I haven't seen anything like the C/Java curly-brace religious wars. 01:49:21 *zmv* whispers "OTBS" 01:49:23 :P 01:54:13 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:54:51 gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 01:57:23 -!- zmv [~daniel@c9533906.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:00:58 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-135-5.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 02:08:27 -!- asher9 [~asher@c-24-91-59-62.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:09:28 cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has joined #lisp 02:09:37 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has quit [Changing host] 02:09:37 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 02:12:44 -!- spiaggia` is now known as spiaggia 02:14:03 -!- necroforest [~jarred@pool-72-66-96-115.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 02:16:27 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.78.63] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:17:59 -!- Landr [~user@dD5770D30.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:18:14 Landr [~user@dD5770D30.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 02:18:37 -!- mauryck [~mauryck@bard-nynt4-172.bard.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:27:14 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:30:27 Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483AA08.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:11 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p54839DE2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:57:25 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c72ce0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 02:58:44 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:03:36 -!- el-maxo_ [~max@p5DE8D876.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:07:03 el-maxo [~max@p5DE8D4FB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:27 Torkn [~chatzilla@114-198-46-191.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 03:23:44 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 03:26:50 -!- ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:29:18 enthymeme [~kraken@rrcs-64-183-86-53.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:37:41 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-21-133-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:40:44 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.78.63] has joined #lisp 03:44:40 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:46:24 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:47:09 -!- rfg [~rfg@host86-147-110-188.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: rfg] 03:56:05 -!- Torkn [~chatzilla@114-198-46-191.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.17/20110420140830]] 03:56:44 Torkn [~chatzilla@114-198-46-191.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 04:00:42 udzinari [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 04:01:41 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@rrcs-64-183-86-53.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:02:08 -!- Torkn [~chatzilla@114-198-46-191.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.17/20110420140830]] 04:03:17 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.78.63] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:03:44 lemoinem [~swoog@83-76-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 04:05:32 -!- Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483AA08.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:05:36 Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483AA08.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:08:25 Torkn [~chatzilla@114-198-46-191.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 04:09:50 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl4-7-82.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:12:49 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.50.27] has joined #lisp 04:17:46 -!- udzinari [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: zzzzzzZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzz] 04:17:47 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:22:27 asher9 [~asher@c-24-91-59-62.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:27:36 -!- Torkn is now known as Torkn2U 04:28:50 Is there some usual way to wrap a list? Use adjustable array instead? I want to push/pop something without changing the binding. 04:32:50 -!- Torkn2U [~chatzilla@114-198-46-191.dyn.iinet.net.au] has left #lisp 04:33:48 dmiles [~dmiles@c-24-21-133-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:34:02 given I don't care about order, I can splice cells into the second position, though this seems strange. 04:34:25 That's a reasonable approach. You could use a structure or a class if you want generic functions. 04:34:26 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:34:49 gman23 [~Angel-@ip68-13-163-238.om.om.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:34:59 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 04:35:04 Hi 04:35:05 Torkn2U [~chatzilla@114-198-46-191.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 04:35:07 dmiles_akf [dmiles@c-24-21-133-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:35:14 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 04:35:43 -!- Torkn2U [~chatzilla@114-198-46-191.dyn.iinet.net.au] has left #lisp 04:36:05 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-21-133-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:37:58 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Client Quit] 04:38:44 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@c-24-21-133-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:39:56 sacho [~sacho@79-100-48-20.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 04:43:35 italic [~italic@cpe-67-242-144-94.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:46:47 does anyone have experience with cl-opengl, creating a new matrix to load as a uniform? 04:46:59 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 04:47:09 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.149] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:50:58 splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 04:52:06 -!- hankhero [~Adium@c213-89-201-154.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:53:10 hankhero [~Adium@c213-89-201-154.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 04:53:29 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 04:55:20 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-132-182.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:55:52 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 04:56:14 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@117.197.243.222] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:56:48 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 04:57:05 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Client Quit] 04:57:24 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 04:58:19 BlankVerse [~pankajm@117.201.167.24] has joined #lisp 05:04:17 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:07:12 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-137-233.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:07:38 -!- cheezus [~Adium@69.196.171.160] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:11:20 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 05:15:20 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:19:10 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:20:06 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 05:20:30 deftype seems to be like C's typedef -- it doesn't really create a new type, it just makes a shortcut for an existing type. Perl has "bless", which endows some object with a unique type. Apart from using a class wrapper, is there a bless-like thing in lisp? Suppose I want to dispatch on my array type -- I can't "subclass" array, so is the usual method to make a class wrapper? 05:21:26 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 05:23:55 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 05:23:55 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 05:23:55 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:24:28 asher9: do you have a particular reason to avoid defclass? 05:26:40 jfleming: I'm not trying to avoid it, just wondering if a one-slot class is the usual mechanism here. 05:26:42 asher9: array may have subclasses, but they are implementation dependent 05:26:43 pavelludiq [c28d2f82@gateway/web/freenode/ip.194.141.47.130] has joined #lisp 05:27:23 also, you can use a discriminator parameter 05:27:46 (defgeneric myfun (array-element-type array ...)...) 05:27:47 hm, dispatch on a dummy object -- I didn't think of that. 05:28:22 wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-24-193-121-20.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:28:28 (defun myfun1 (array ...) (myfun (array-element-type array) array ...)) is also something you can do 05:28:35 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@117.201.167.24] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:28:54 and you can use eql specialization on the methods 05:28:57 tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 05:29:06 depending on what exactly you're dispatching on 05:29:54 oh, what you're doing might be best served with a class wrapper 05:30:25 Demosthenes [~demo@m425736d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 05:30:39 anyway, off to bed 05:30:53 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.216.49] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 05:31:43 k thanks 05:33:21 asher9: rahul beat me to it - defgeneric really lives up to its name :) 05:34:38 asher: Types and classes are different in CL. 05:35:22 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-svpjczhbnejsjwci] has joined #lisp 05:35:22 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-svpjczhbnejsjwci] has quit [Changing host] 05:35:22 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:35:37 asher: A type in CL describes a set of potential objects -- deftype does produce new types. 05:35:43 -!- pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:36:01 asher: A class in CL describes how something is implemented. 05:36:13 asher: CL supports dispatch upon class, but not upon type. 05:37:09 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 05:37:41 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-yricqrddxoyjncrt] has joined #lisp 05:37:51 -!- splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: splittist] 05:38:10 Zhivago: that's an uncharitable interpretation of what I said. One can get by without deftype -- just type in the whole typespec every type. That's why I meant by deftype not really creating new types. 05:38:20 *every time 05:38:28 ugh -- *That's what 05:40:33 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.59.207.229] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 05:41:20 cfy` [~cfy@122.228.131.85] has joined #lisp 05:41:43 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:41:47 -!- cfy` is now known as Guest39437 05:46:23 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-24-193-121-20.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 05:47:31 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C69C0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:48:48 asher9: That's right, but even if it did create a new type, you couldn't dispatch with it. 05:49:09 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81BAEE.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:49:27 which is exactly why I asked about a bless equivalent 05:49:39 Why not fix your thinking instead? 05:49:52 bless doesn't make any sense in CLOS terms. 05:50:04 he isn't using clos though 05:50:14 he's talking about arrays 05:50:15 you are damn right -- did I claim it did? 05:50:52 asher: Then why ask for an equivalent? 05:52:00 asher9: why not just write one? 05:53:12 Zhivago: you mean why do I not assume that I know every possible strategy in lisp and keep my mouth shut? 05:53:43 rahul's explanation was what I needed 05:53:46 asher: Do you speak English? 05:55:53 Zhivago: you can always win this game. spin the most uncharitable interpretation possible of what someone says. you are right and they are wrong. you can always win at that. the question is whether this is of any help. rahul helped, however you seem to be only helping yourself here. 05:56:11 -!- asher9 [~asher@c-24-91-59-62.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:57:47 asher: As opposed to where I suggested what rahul suggested, earlier? 05:57:56 asher: I'm not interested in your ego problems. Good luck. 05:58:33 -!- milanj [~milanj_@212-200-194-87.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:58:36 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 06:01:59 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:02:44 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C69C0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:03:35 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:04:22 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 06:08:51 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-czvluenmmqxtgbyl] has joined #lisp 06:08:51 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-czvluenmmqxtgbyl] has quit [Changing host] 06:08:51 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 06:11:45 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@m425736d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:13:55 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:16:20 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 06:17:29 pearle 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joined #lisp 07:13:57 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:15:08 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-151.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:17:39 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-248.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:17:56 am0c [~am0c@112.149.169.21] has joined #lisp 07:17:57 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has joined #lisp 07:18:19 stis [~stis@host-90-235-38-221.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 07:18:51 Areil [~user@113.172.38.77] has joined #lisp 07:19:43 Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has joined #lisp 07:21:38 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-32-12-181.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: When there's nothing left to burn you have to set yourself on fire.] 07:22:49 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:26:14 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.199.148] has joined #lisp 07:27:27 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:27:36 Sara__ [52d4445a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.82.212.68.90] has joined #lisp 07:27:43 nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:215:5200:0:5efe:3b42:8f51] has joined #lisp 07:27:43 -!- nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:215:5200:0:5efe:3b42:8f51] has quit [Changing host] 07:27:43 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 07:28:07 helo.. so i was wondering.. where can lisp be used nowadays? 07:28:13 everywhere! 07:28:26 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:28:55 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:7a2b:cbff:fed0:c11c] has joined #lisp 07:28:55 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:7a2b:cbff:fed0:c11c] has quit [Changing host] 07:28:55 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 07:29:02 What tic said. 07:29:08 tic: well I am a python/php/perl and java programmer.. but kinda use a language for every purpose.. is there an area where lips is greater? 07:29:22 lisp! 07:29:28 sorry for typo :P 07:30:02 lisp is particularly strong for solving hard problems, where you're not even sure what the problem is. But it's great for everything else, too. 07:30:15 Sara__: it's not such a great scripting language; python's better for that. CL scales really well, though; it's engineered nicely in that respect. 07:31:10 -!- Guest39437 [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:31:11 It helps that you can prototype solutions in it quickly, profile your code's performance, then optimise it selectively where necessary. 07:31:27 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 07:31:29 Guest39437 [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has joined #lisp 07:31:32 Sara__: don't listen to jfleming, I write all my scripts with clisp. 07:32:35 Good point, and I stand corrected. *I* haven't found it such a practical scripting language so far, but then I don't do a lot of scripting outside my dayjob at the moment. 07:33:17 If your question is "can I write web applications in it?", the short answer is yes :) 07:33:39 If your question is "can I write xyz applications in it?", the short answer is yes :) 07:35:16 Sara__: "...Please don't assume Lisp is only useful for Animation and Graphics, AI, Bioinformatics, B2B and E-Commerce, Data Mining, EDA/Semiconductor applications, Expert Systems, Finance, Intelligent Agents, Knowledge Management, Mechanical CAD, Modeling and Simulation, Natural Language, Optimization, Research, Risk Analysis, Scheduling, Telecom, and Web Authoring just because these are the only things they happened to list." 07:35:16 http://www.franz.com/success/ http://bc.tech.coop/blog/041027.html 07:35:37 There's a bit of a learning curve but, once you've climbed it, the language is best described as protean. If it's not quite optimal for the task at hand, you can almost certainly turn it into a language that _is_ optimal for it. 07:35:59 I say "almost" because nobody's successfully turned CL into an Erlang competitor, to my knowledge. 07:36:17 Er... did we answer the question? :) 07:36:34 jfleming: well since I am a web programmer.. I am interested now :) 07:36:45 jfleming: any web frameworks using lisp around? 07:36:51 Sara__: the bigger the projects get the better CL is suited. small text processing I still do via perl 07:36:55 jfleming: http://www.foldr.org/~michaelw/log/programming/lisp/erlang-common-lisp 07:37:07 Sara__: only two or three ... Hunchentoot, weblocks, ... 07:37:28 I'd suggest taking a look at hunchentoot, then learn CLOS, then look at weblocks 07:38:01 Uncommon Web too. 07:38:02 flip214: mmm... this community is so active! I am enjoying my time! :D 07:38:28 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-174-155.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 07:38:34 Yes, there are some more frameworks. I only listed a few to avoid confusion. 07:38:38 Well, small text processing, I may do it with sed... 07:38:46 what is a best starting book? I never touched lisp :( 07:38:59 http://cliki.net gives all the references. 07:39:05 Sara__: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 07:39:06 Sara__: PCL is often advised. 07:39:33 *Sgeo* wonders what some advantages of CL relative to Smalltalk are. What about relative to Picolisp? 07:40:14 Sgeo: relative to PicoLisp: CL is more efficient and provides more comprehensive and higher level tools and libraries. 07:40:22 Sgeo: compared to Smalltalk, CLOS. 07:40:26 Sgeo: I've only briefly played with Smalltalk, but offhand I'd say that one advantage is CL being a truly multiparadigm language. 07:40:31 about performance.. any benchmarking done related to web programming? 07:41:13 Sara__: benchmarks are a source of much vigorous disagreement, but SBCL is one of the implementations that compiles to native-code. It's pretty damn quick, even with all the run-time safety stuff switched on. 07:41:21 Sgeo: But now that Lisp Machines are museum items, Smalltalk may have the advantage of its integrated environment. For CL today, in practice it is not an integrated environment, but a spread between the lisp implementation, emacs and linux. 07:41:59 jfleming: all CL implementations compile to native code, apart clisp and abcl. 07:42:01 And by "multiparadigm," I mean that I commonly combine OO, functional and procedural in one relatively flowing manoeuvre, though I'm starting to ditch some of the procedural stuff. 07:42:07 Sara__: surely it's the network speeds that are going to dominate for web programming. But a compiled lisp is likely to be at least as performant as Java, let alone perl and python. 07:42:16 So having a CL compiler generating code as fast, or faster than C is the rule, not the exception. 07:43:00 faster than C?!! 07:43:05 Even there you get trade-offs according to what you want. Clozure CL produces compiled code more quickly, but SBCL tends to produce faster code. Sometimes you need to iterate more quickly. 07:43:39 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-53-160.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:43:52 Sara__: http://john.freml.in/teepeedee2-c10k 07:43:53 Sara__: I said: cliki.net... http://www.cliki.net/Performance 07:44:07 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:45:27 Reading PCL I've done a quick test, adding integers up to some limit ... gcc -O3 was slower than SBCL 07:46:08 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has joined #lisp 07:46:26 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-151.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:46:59 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-80-84.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:47:08 and if you want to ease away from the java world rather than dropping it cold turkey, there's abcl. (Although the cold turkey approach is probably better.) 07:47:22 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 07:47:50 I'd definitely recommend the cold-turkey approach, to reduce confusion. CL and Java look at the world inside-out, relative to each other. 07:47:57 The biggest mistake to make with lisp is to try to naively translate its concepts into those of the other languages you already know. And until you know a bit of lisp, it's hard not to be naive. 07:48:47 The biggest mistake to make with #lisp is to ignore its advice (: 07:49:25 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:49:29 It's very common for beginners to get frustrated when trying to implement something in the manner they'd do it in, say, Java, without realising you simply go about it in a different way in Lisp. 07:50:01 splittist: the second-biggest mistake is not to keep the salt-lick handy when reading advice in #lisp :P 07:51:10 jfleming: well, yes. Some advisers are better than others. Just as for any message, the messenger is important. 07:52:47 #lisp also hosts the harshest critics of CL, so if you end up hating it, stick around for some confirmation (: 07:54:02 Though I suspect those are mostly the old-timers who remember the standardisation process. Then there are people like me who've yet to hit its limitations, and see it as sheer awesomeness incarnate. 07:54:58 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:55:53 jfleming: it's because lisp actually allows you to glimpse the Platonic ideal of programming languages that it becomes possible to critique it as possibly falling short. Other languages are just typing. 07:55:54 -!- easyE [uLhkwhquPb@panix2.panix.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:56:00 (: 07:58:25 All the more frustrating for having gotten so much closer to perfection, yet still not quite reaching it? 07:58:27 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-dfnwrtgjajsticxg] has joined #lisp 07:59:08 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:59:12 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-150-156.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:59:58 More than that - until lisp caused the scales to fall from your eyes, you didn't even know perfection existed. So it's resentment as well as frustration - ignorance was so much more comfortable. 08:00:04 how come lisp is faster than C.. ? I mean.. I am not that great programmer.. but doesn't lisp compile to C on a lower level? 08:00:24 kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:00:28 Sara__: nope. The "native code" part means native to the CPU, not native to C. 08:00:50 Guthur [c0c1f510@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.193.245.16] has joined #lisp 08:01:14 That said, Gambit Scheme is one environment that compiles to C and thence to native code, so it's not like that _doesn't_ happen anywhere in the Lisp world. 08:02:06 ECL also compiles through C 08:02:36 as one of the options (it also can compile to bytecode) 08:02:39 as far as i know 08:02:46 Sara__: it's important to remember that C is a thin abstraction layer for the PDP-11 architecture. CPU architecture has changed so radically since then, that C is no longer the bare-metal language that it was three decades ago - some of its assumptions just aren't valid any more. 08:04:38 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has joined #lisp 08:04:45 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:04:52 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-220-88.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:05:01 String operations are particularly inefficient. 08:05:15 splittist: actually, I'm still pretty much in the honeymoon phase, and it's been a few years. It wasn't so much scales falling from my eyes, as "now *this* is what I've been looking for!" 08:05:43 argiopeweb: if you use 'format, yes. But there are more efficient options available. 08:06:10 argiopeweb: string operations inefficient where? 08:06:18 concatenate and princ, to name two. 08:06:19 argiopeweb: and which operations exactly? 08:06:32 In C, in C... *ducks and runs* 08:07:07 'sfunny; for a second I was going to ask whether you were thinking about Erlang. Now *there*'s a language that wasn't designed for string-munging. 08:07:15 rofl... 08:07:48 Funny you mention that, since I'm currently on a 10 hour "Learn Erlang and as much of OTP as I can stomach" binge. 08:08:16 Seriously, it's the only high-level language I know whose string-mangling is done in binary. 08:08:34 easyE [PFQyCD1KMy@panix2.panix.com] has joined #lisp 08:09:23 Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-191-189.w2-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:09:50 jfleming: It is mildly ridiculous. This being said, for what it was designed for strings really don't exist. 08:10:54 So the "why" makes sense, even if the actual fact that they did it doesn't. 08:12:02 argiopeweb: Correct. Given the hair-thin niche for which it was designed, I think it should be praised for the flexibility it's shown. If you want a scarily robust, distributed system for handling thousands of small requests all at once, Erlang's the way to go. 08:12:15 tcr [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 08:14:00 jfleming: Which is, luckily, what I intend to use it for (hence the reason I'm learning it, instead of standing 5 miles away and smiling at its quaintness). 08:14:24 -!- Sara__ [52d4445a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.82.212.68.90] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:14:35 Is there an easy way to tell ASDF to load a file only if it exists? 08:14:56 Though I also have a smaller system that's slightly more processor intensive that I'll hopefully be able to use Erlang + one of the FFI interfaces on. 08:15:57 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:16:33 tcr: (ignore-errors), (handler-case), etc? 08:17:56 ? 08:18:50 tcr: if you find it, I'd love to know. I'd also love the idea of loading whatever packages happen to have been whacked into a given directory root; that'd make for a rather neat basis for a plugin system. 08:19:18 isn't system-connections related to that? 08:19:51 also, i guess a custom optional-file component should be created (if there is no such thing already) 08:20:11 -!- Levenson [~Levenson@88.204.198.250.metro.online.kz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:21:23 killerboy [~mateusz@pc26.zsk.p.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 08:21:28 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:21:34 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 08:22:04 jfleming: "whatever packages"  what's packages for you? 08:22:38 Levenson [~Levenson@95.59.101.206] has joined #lisp 08:26:25 jdz: possibly. I haven't actually needed a plugin system badly enough to dig in and find out, yet. It's mostly a forward-looking thing. Not least because it won't become entirely relevant until some time after I leave my current employer. They can't stop me creating an application that shares common ground with one of their own, but they can stop me releasing the code. 08:27:02 tcr: by 'packages' I mean 'ASDF systems' 08:27:20 jfleming: lots of stuff in ASDF2 for that. 08:28:16 Sweet. I'll poke around once I get to that point. I've a few critical features to implement before I start worrying about a mechanism for adding random components. 08:29:20 And now I need to bugger off home. 'night, all. 08:30:35 c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-ixmcvyyqlsyebomt] has joined #lisp 08:35:02 -!- Adrinael [~adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:35:08 Adrinael [~adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 08:36:44 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 08:41:56 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-191-189.w2-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:42:41 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 08:43:24 liz_lemon [liz_lemon@86.126.186.166] has joined #lisp 08:43:28 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 08:43:32 -!- liz_lemon [liz_lemon@86.126.186.166] has left #lisp 08:48:24 with CCL on windows I keep getting an exception with "Exception occurred while executing foreign code" 08:48:46 The same code with SBCL doesn't throw 08:49:13 anyone had similar issues 08:49:30 Guthur: hmm... a case of table vs. stack exception handling? 08:49:33 there is no useful information, just a register stack dump 08:50:25 p_l|backup: not sure, what would that be, and is it solvable 08:50:26 Guthur: I'm not sure, but it's possible that CCL preempts foreign code exception handler with its own 08:51:06 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:51:06 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 08:51:06 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:51:10 francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has joined #lisp 08:51:16 cause it uses global exception handlers, while SBCL uses scoped (stack) ones 08:52:11 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-21-133-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:52:55 ok, rather bothersome 08:53:25 for guys who know/use more than one language: which is closer to lisp: perl or java? (question asked by a collegue)? He wants to know is it easier to learn cl if you come from perl or from java (and the reverse) 08:54:03 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:54:25 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 08:54:30 o.O neither 08:54:40 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 08:54:43 it could be unrelated and therefore we can give both java and perl equal chance to apmly for the job 08:54:57 -!- dmiles_akf [dmiles@c-24-21-133-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:55:06 Landr: ok then equal chance, are you sure? 08:55:26 perl and java are algol-like 08:55:43 francogrex: a good programmer equipped with PCL and some extra guides won't have issue with learning enough CL to start 08:55:52 though i do believe java has functions as first class objects 08:56:04 should mention that this is in relation to hiring and then teaching cl to new programmerss in our small group 08:56:07 no, it has anonymous inner classes as a weak substitute. 08:56:27 I recommend against discriminating on languages known in requirement unless you explicitly state knowledge of specific language as requirement for the work that will be done 08:56:31 ok well thnks then, let's just keep it at that 08:56:53 p_l|backup: no I didn't state any such requirements, 08:57:25 francogrex: I think it's easiest to learn Common Lisp if you throw away any preconceptions you've learnt from other languages. :) 08:57:31 (that is, only specify the requirement forlanguages being used,and try not tochoose based on languagesknown - better do that on techniques known/used) 08:58:42 francogrex: perl5 is good, perl6 is very similar to lisp - at least the internals. the syntax is a small bit different ;-) 08:59:48 and maybe off topic; if you are to hire a programmer do you do some tests to see how good they are? 09:00:10 franco: The only test you can really do is to see if they're completely useless or not. 09:00:26 Usually something like coding up a binary search algorithm is sufficient. 09:00:29 p_l|backup: because you mention above: try not tochoose based on languagesknown - better do 09:00:32 that on techniques known/used) 09:00:48 francogrex: don't ask trick questions, but give them a problem and ask them their idea on solution/implementation 09:00:52 franco: I've had good results asking them to solve a problem I'm facing on that day. 09:00:55 Zhivago: ok; 09:01:27 ok good idea 09:01:32 I find that helps me avoid looking for the "right" answer, and more on appreciating their thought process. 09:01:42 a modern and actually good question from my friend's google interview was "you're implementing a text editor, how will you store the text in the buffer?" 09:01:47 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:02:25 I will store it as a rope with cursors. :) 09:02:41 -!- Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@1807ds2-noe.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 09:02:47 lol 09:03:01 Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@1807ds2-noe.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 09:03:04 It's a reasonable question to ask about data structures. 09:03:20 The main thing to remember is that interviews make people really stupid. 09:03:43 Guthur_ [c0c1f50f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.193.245.15] has joined #lisp 09:03:46 francogrex: be wary of people who have lots of history with various algorithmic contests 09:04:50 also, remember to check people on knowledge related to using VCS/testing/etc, things like simple etiquette of not checking completelyuntested code into main repo etc. 09:05:00 franco: just figure out if they can solve your problem. if not, they wouldn't be able to solve it on the job. simple. the only thing you need to find out then is whether they are an arsehole. 09:05:12 yes they become anxious/stressed during interview, I know from myself, they may do worse than they usually do under other more relaxed conditions... 09:05:52 So I look for two basic things -- not being completely useless and being nice. 09:05:55 p_l|backup: why should one be wary about those with algorithm contest? 09:06:12 Not completely useless nice people can generally be taught the rest if necessary. 09:06:31 francogrex: I know some people from those that could ace contests but couldn't code their way out of a paper bag 09:06:47 ok 09:07:18 francogrex: basically - a lot of those favour theoretical mathematicians who then proceed to Greenspun a lot 09:07:51 because they couldn't use libraries for contests - after all, it's not a contests if libppcre allows you to brute force it 09:08:18 true 09:08:51 -!- brodo [~brodo@p5B023A7F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: brodo] 09:09:07 Well, I don't see why that's a problem. 09:09:11 hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:09:31 That's something that can be learned relatively easily. 09:09:39 The converse, on the other hand ... 09:09:58 Zhivago: it can be learned... but I didn't say "ignore those people" :) 09:10:16 basically, one needs to remember that it might be necessary to mentor the hire on such things 09:10:31 Sure. 09:11:39 an example of such a situation from Amazon was their stock interview question of "replace a string (telephone number) in all pages (several tens if not hundreds of thousands pages worth)" 09:11:39 Hmm. A cursor tree might be a nice approach. 09:11:59 The thing with cursors is that you want insert and delete operations to keep all of the cursors in the right positions. 09:12:09 ltriant [~ltriant@124-148-173-219.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:13:42 silenius [~silenus@p549473C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:15:29 -!- longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:17:19 franco: As for lisp, I'd say that javascript is probably the closest of the popular languages. 09:18:30 All it really needs are macros. 09:18:35 TheRealLongshot [~longshot@207.204.232.138] has joined #lisp 09:19:19 And maybe multiple value returns. 09:19:40 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@pc26.zsk.p.lodz.pl] has quit [Quit: bye] 09:19:46 Zhivago: ok, I asked about the other two because I received few CVs already that mentioned perl and java, but i'll keep an eye for pothers 09:20:05 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:22:08 fantasy [~fantasy@202.102.144.6] has joined #lisp 09:23:26 Perl is probably closer than java. 09:23:44 Particularly if they've used moose, I guess. 09:23:45 -!- Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:24:02 Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 09:24:27 Although, frankly, my exposure to perl has been limited to fixing academic code. 09:24:42 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:25:07 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 09:25:38 It's a pity that javascript has such a bad reputation. 09:26:14 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-16.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:30:00 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.59] has joined #lisp 09:30:21 i blame the lack of debuggers 09:30:45 also: case mattering 09:31:00 case should never matter 09:33:09 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-yricqrddxoyjncrt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:34:50 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:36:42 I think that case mattering is the simpler choice. 09:36:51 Particularly once you start to think about internationalization. 09:37:08 For example, should hiragana and katakana be normalized in Japanese? 09:37:20 There are also debuggers. 09:37:53 and maybe lack of good compiler? (although the spidermonkey of firefox is ok) 09:40:32 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:40:52 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 09:41:20 -!- ozzloy [~ozzloy@unaffiliated/ozzloy] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:42:47 ozzloy [~ozzloy@ozzloy.lifeafterking.org] has joined #lisp 09:42:47 -!- ozzloy [~ozzloy@ozzloy.lifeafterking.org] has quit [Changing host] 09:42:47 ozzloy [~ozzloy@unaffiliated/ozzloy] has joined #lisp 09:43:45 javascript has its quirks which drive me crazy and build its reputation 09:47:34 rdd [~user@c83-250-52-16.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 09:47:44 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-220-88.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:47:53 I think JS got the bad reputation from th fact that for a long time, the most common use was 1) obnoxious ads 2) cheap tricks. And it lackd features to support advanced, modern use, without opening portability hell 09:48:14 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.12.183] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:48:58 also most people writing js code didn't know js 09:49:05 or, in many cases, how to code at all 09:49:09 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-217-195.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 09:50:29 and most often it is browser quirks, and not JavaScript 09:51:15 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-gnkggvsxqicyuaxw] has joined #lisp 09:53:25 Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 09:54:18 -!- Guest39437 is now known as cfy 09:54:28 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has quit [Changing host] 09:54:28 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 09:54:59 -!- Guthur [c0c1f510@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.193.245.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:54:59 -!- nooboon [43aa6450@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.170.100.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:56:20 -!- borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:58:24 -!- silenius [~silenus@p549473C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:59:51 -!- francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:00:59 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:02:47 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:03:09 -!- stis [~stis@host-90-235-38-221.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:04:54 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-135-5.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:13:21 Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:16:52 rfg [~rfg@host86-147-110-188.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 10:20:05 Guthur [c743cb8c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.140] has joined #lisp 10:20:30 would (format *debug-io* ...) be threadsafe? 10:21:18 threadsafe how? 10:21:43 well more than one thread doing a format to the same stream 10:22:12 Guthur: not with sbcl - there I already tried some time ago 10:22:14 yes, they will all do output 10:22:30 I had to use a mutex to avoid getting the output mixed up 10:23:23 ok, just trying to determine the source of some unruly behaviour 10:28:32 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Quit: sauron@mordor:~$ echo "cat * >> /etc/shadow" > ring] 10:31:25 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 10:36:31 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 10:36:39 hi 10:36:58 please is there anyone that compiled sbcl on debian for sparc? Thanks 10:38:46 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:39:33 Posterdati: does the build from sbcl.org not work? 10:39:55 p_l|backup: not for sparc 10:40:13 http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/sbcl/sbcl-1.0.28-sparc-linux-binary.tar.bz2 <--- this? 10:41:04 I don't think it bitrotted completely, though I'm not sure about thread support 10:41:21 ok 10:41:22 Posterdati: also, if it's non-commercial, you can grab SCL for free 10:41:46 may I recompile sbcl-source with it? 10:41:48 unless you use SBCL-specific code, it should run just fine 10:42:27 Posterdati: yes, follow standard procedure, just compile SBCL 1.0.48 with 1.0.28 from site 10:42:28 basho__ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-152-151.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:43:04 hmmm... SCL for SPARC is Solaris-only 10:46:15 billitch [~billitch@78.251.132.60] has joined #lisp 10:48:28 p_l|backup: won't compile :( 10:50:42 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:50:44 what kind of error do you get? 10:51:24 when it tries to assemble, it remains with x86 not sparc assemply, I found that a bunch of files are link to x86. files in the source tree 10:52:55 did you edit config to make sure it builds for sparc? 10:53:10 Config either is a link to x86 10:53:11 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.133.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:53:19 I relink it to sparc version 10:53:25 jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.3.201] has joined #lisp 10:53:32 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.133.196] has joined #lisp 10:56:12 /tmp/ccqNjdeg.s: Assembler messages: 10:56:12 /tmp/ccqNjdeg.s:60: Error: Illegal operands 10:56:12 /tmp/ccqNjdeg.s:103: Error: Unknown opcode: `orl' 10:57:00 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:57:10 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-gnkggvsxqicyuaxw] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:58:27 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-135-5.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 10:59:47 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:00:16 hmmm... make-config.sh should properly setup and link configuration for sparc 11:01:11 -!- Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@1807ds2-noe.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:02:17 -!- reb` [~user@nat/google/x-xofdqwntuxvhrnxo] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:02:35 reb` [~user@nat/google/x-lspgbiqaupfuvsgw] has joined #lisp 11:02:56 p_l|backup: I'm using the debian package 11:03:26 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-135-5.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:04:38 -_- 11:04:44 p_l|backup: now I'm compiling 1.0.40 from sbcl.org site 11:04:48 just use binary from sbcl.org and build it from source 11:04:54 p_l|backup: it seems to work now 11:05:25 p_l|backup: a lot of functions are lisp written :) good 11:08:15 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-qbayxmtubhrmwzlp] has joined #lisp 11:15:25 sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:15:31 -!- Guthur_ [c0c1f50f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.193.245.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:15:57 Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@fw.math.ku.dk] has joined #lisp 11:17:36 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-65-62.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 11:18:58 jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.32.59] has joined #lisp 11:19:48 Triplefault [~Mouse@adsl-72-145-215-164.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 11:19:54 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:21:52 -!- gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:22:29 Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:27:31 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:31:48 -!- 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[~nick@ACA219C9.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 12:33:12 -!- billitch [~billitch@78.251.132.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:35:23 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-150-156.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:36:05 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:36:20 cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.139.98.69] has joined #lisp 12:39:00 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:39:31 pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 12:39:56 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-185-48.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:41:05 billitch [~billitch@78.251.59.6] has joined #lisp 12:41:13 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 12:42:25 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:45:47 -!- Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@fw.math.ku.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:46:00 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:46:34 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 12:48:36 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:49:43 sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:50:04 leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has joined #lisp 12:50:10 -!- sellout is now known as Guest48698 12:51:32 Rearden [~John@rrcs-184-74-156-189.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:53:49 -!- jrockway [~jrockway@jrockway-2-pt.tunnel.tserv9.chi1.ipv6.he.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:53:52 -!- Guest48698 [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:57:31 Shaftoe [~Moe111@modemcable109.28-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 12:58:06 hi all. Does anyone have experience working with chained certificate files on Hunchentoot/CL+SSL 12:58:35 CL+SSL:USE-CERTIFICATE-CHAIN-FILE seems not to have the desired effect 12:59:11 Shaftoe: drop CL+SSL, use reverse proxy to handle SSL ... 12:59:37 -!- Rearden [~John@rrcs-184-74-156-189.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:59:37 p_l: is CL+SSL no longer supported? 12:59:49 Shaftoe: no, I'm just realistic 13:00:07 Shaftoe: p_l|backup is offering a helpful suggestion along the lines of "Install a different linux distro (preferably the one I personally like)!" 13:00:14 heh 13:00:23 cpape [root@linux01.gwdg.de] has joined #lisp 13:00:26 I hear you. I'm going to end up doing that if it just doesn't work. I wanna see if it's a simple one liner to fix. 13:00:27 jrockway [~jrockway@jrockway-2-pt.tunnel.tserv9.chi1.ipv6.he.net] has joined #lisp 13:00:34 yes indeed. 13:00:47 Xach: not necessarily "install a distro", more among the lines of "this will be probably easier to get running with minimal modification of the code you have" 13:00:56 Shaftoe: Please report issues to the mailing list, because I'm not familiar with the certificate code. 13:01:37 the code already worked fine. until I got a new cert. nowadays, Geotrust issues certs with intermediate CAs 13:01:39 *nikodemus* fixes ,@(...) indentation. no more ,@(when foo ...) ugliness 13:02:01 Also understand that p_l|backup is right insofar as CL+SSL is still a bit of a proof-of-concept code base, and not yet as stable as one would hope it to be. Having bug reports and users can only help improve that situation. 13:02:23 It helps a lot if you include a programmatic test case. 13:03:15 hmm. not sure how I'd do that. I Guess I'd have to include instructions on how to create a CA, an intermediate CA, and finally a signed cert 13:03:31 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 13:04:22 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:04:41 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:06:03 ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has joined #lisp 13:06:50 -!- pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:06:59 cesarbp_ [~chatzilla@189.139.98.69] has joined #lisp 13:07:28 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.139.98.69] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:07:39 -!- cesarbp_ is now known as cesarbp 13:08:35 Shaftoe: does the test need (private) keys or just the (public) certificates? If it's the latter, I don't see why they couldn't be copy&pasted into the test case. 13:08:57 -!- jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.32.59] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:09:28 it needs a key that was signed by geotrust's new intermediate cert. That means buying a cert from them. the free alternative is to setup a private CA chain 13:09:54 Direktor [~John@rrcs-184-74-156-189.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:09:56 the thing is that geotrust no longer signs their certs off of their root CA. they have instead created an intermediate CA off of which all certs are signed. 13:11:18 okay, so you need a running server to test a real SSL connection to it from a test client 13:11:43 not necessarily a running server, but yes, you need valid working certs. 13:12:19 ... if the test doesn't require a a live SSL connection, you'd be able to pre-encrypt test data without exposing the key 13:12:26 -!- nixfreak [~nixfreak@mn-10k-dhcp1-3174.dsl.hickorytech.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:12:26 I'm currently installing pcap to see what's going on. 13:12:50 from what I understand, the intermediate cert is not being transmitted to the client 13:12:52 ineiros [~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 13:13:06 I don't know how I'd do that ? 13:13:52 What server are you using? You should be able to wedge it in as the "root" cert. 13:14:14 Worst case, stuff all the cert text together if you only have the option to present one cert. 13:14:33 ChibaPet: good idea. let me try that. 13:14:48 sellout- [~Adium@64.134.66.246] has joined #lisp 13:14:50 (I know that pem files can just be appended to one another, I'll see if it works) 13:15:14 It should. It's ugly, but sometimes CA intermediate certs come as multiples anyway, leaving one with no choice. 13:15:52 I suggest the root cert as a valid place to stuff it also because the client should already have access to the root cert. 13:16:04 So stuffing in the intermediate hurts nothing. 13:19:57 Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-191-189.w2-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:20:43 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 13:21:53 -!- Direktor [~John@rrcs-184-74-156-189.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:23:03 -!- rfg [~rfg@host86-147-110-188.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: rfg] 13:23:28 brodo [~brodo@p5B023A7F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:26 Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:27:34 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 13:28:24 pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 13:30:07 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:32:54 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:33:02 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sbahra] 13:34:39 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-191-189.w2-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:35:18 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.59] has joined #lisp 13:39:16 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 13:40:59 i have strange encoding problems in debian with sbcl 13:41:16 sb-fastcgi won't let me output utf8 bytes 13:41:41 utf8 bytes? 13:41:44 Normally encodings don't come into play when writing to a binary stream. 13:42:13 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:42:15 i mean to write a simple-string with unicode characters 13:42:28 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.133.196] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:42:30 everything defaults to base-strings 13:42:41 is there a global option to default to utf-8 xternal format in sbcl ? 13:42:58 *features* has sb-unicode 13:43:01 billitch: You can usually set that up with locale-related environment variables prior to startup. 13:43:14 on my system, I use LANG=en_US.utf8 13:43:23 i have LANG=fr_FR.UTF-8 13:43:45 billitch: What is the external format of the stream to which you're trying to write? 13:43:52 What error message do you get? 13:43:56 Can you paste it? 13:44:03 i don't know it's sb-fastcgi calling an alien function 13:44:16 but sb-unicode would be a required feature, anyway, right? 13:44:35 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:44:40 yes 13:45:16 still, proper error output would help 13:48:51 proper output in progress 13:49:37 but for instance i had to change every call to with-open-file to have :external-format :utf-8 13:50:04 like some default is wrong 13:50:31 jweiss [~user@cpe-069-134-063-238.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:51:27 what is the value of SB-IMPL::*DEFAULT-EXTERNAL-FORMAT*? 13:51:44 billitch: if it works with explicit external-format then yes, you should set up proper default 13:52:17 billitch: probably by putting proper environment variables in your fastcgi congif 13:52:20 config even 13:52:51 that's the case even outside fastcgi 13:53:23 here is the error: c-string encoding error (:external-format NIL): the character with code 233 cannot be encoded. 13:53:27 billitch: but you don't want to depend on random system setup, now do you? 13:53:39 ok 13:54:44 -!- cpape [root@linux01.gwdg.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:55:21 billitch: you still have not answered Xach's question... 13:56:30 I had a problem once where the environment set by my startup, webserver-launching script was not the same as my interactive shells, so there was a development/production divergence. 13:56:45 though i'd like to fix my system to use unicode by default too, and don't know where this is set 13:56:47 I added the right environment changes to the startup script and things worked better. 13:56:51 sorry missed it, i'll set it 13:57:04 billitch: /etc/default/locle 13:57:08 err, /etc/default/locale 13:57:14 billitch: nobody suggested setting it, right? 13:57:33 I certainly don't think that is something to try. 13:58:03 :utf-8 in slime 13:58:16 ok 13:59:34 tsuru [~charlie@adsl-74-179-198-44.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 13:59:36 billitch: is that the same image in which your fastcgi is running? 14:00:05 no 'im waiting for debug output 14:00:45 anyone used drakma in a threaded environment? 14:01:13 i'll have to buy a faster server soon.. 14:01:13 sb-impl::*default-external-format* :ANSI_X3.4-1968 14:01:16 wtf 14:01:32 I'm trying to make parallel requests to a server, but it doesn't actually appear to making the requests concurrently 14:02:08 billitch: so it looks like the startup environment of that sbcl needs locale updates 14:03:50 Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-191-189.w2-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:04:08 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-79-246.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 14:05:37 rvirding [~chatzilla@c-3c90e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 14:06:05 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-fzyiyuewdfehyjxc] has joined #lisp 14:13:06 hey, how to make an IRC bot that live on a host ? 14:13:32 ( Can I embedded some CL in my website to do that ?) 14:15:56 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:16:01 morphism: do you know how internets work? 14:18:29 jdz, perhaps, no 14:18:37 but I am willing to learn 14:18:38 :P 14:19:12 morphism: log in to server, start screen, start sbcl, load irc bot, detach 14:19:52 billitch1 [~billitch@78.251.42.4] has joined #lisp 14:20:23 jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.56] has joined #lisp 14:20:34 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-33-254.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 14:20:34 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-33-254.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 14:20:34 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 14:20:36 milanj [~milanj_@212-200-194-87.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 14:21:18 sbcl can run on my host =.= 14:21:20 ? 14:22:08 morphism: If it doesn't, get another host. 14:22:56 I use one from serverbeach.com. Works nicely. 14:23:17 -!- billitch [~billitch@78.251.59.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:23:32 Xach: i'm sure i start sbcl with LANG=fr_FR.UTF-8 and sb-impl::*default-external-format* is still :ANSI_X3.4-1968 14:24:00 isn't that weird 14:24:05 billitch1: How are you sure? 14:24:34 my host only support php and html :| 14:24:40 billitch1: what does (sb-posix:getenv "LANG") show? 14:24:51 is there anyway to know or make it be able to run some CL impl ? (it's a linux host ) 14:24:53 morphism: Get a better host. 14:25:04 morphism: ask your provider 14:26:31 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-79-246.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:30:04 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:31:36 mauryck [~mauryck@bard-nynt2-155.bard.edu] has joined #lisp 14:31:47 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:35:51 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@chello062178064156.22.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 14:37:45 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:38:00 -!- am0c [~am0c@112.149.169.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:39:16 -!- billitch1 [~billitch@78.251.42.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:40:08 ubii_ [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:21 billitch [~billitch@78.251.61.31] has joined #lisp 14:40:38 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 14:41:07 -!- ubii [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:41:29 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:42:01 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.139.98.69] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 4.0.1/20110413222027]] 14:43:20 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.162.13] has joined #lisp 14:44:02 argiopeweb [~elliot@155.31.174.238] has joined #lisp 14:45:26 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:45:49 -!- gman23 [~Angel-@ip68-13-163-238.om.om.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:47:17 i have in the same lisp image : 14:47:18 * (sb-posix:getenv "LANG") 14:47:19 "LANG=fr_FR.UTF-8" 14:47:19 * sb-impl::*default-external-format* 14:47:19 :ANSI_X3.4-1968 14:47:27 (sorry for pasting) 14:48:35 billitch: in your slime lisp image, what does (sb-posix:getenv "LANG") return? 14:48:42 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-fzyiyuewdfehyjxc] has left #lisp 14:49:20 what's LC_CTYPE? 14:50:14 -!- sacho [~sacho@79-100-48-20.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:50:53 sacho [~sacho@79-100-48-20.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 14:51:12 -!- billitch [~billitch@78.251.61.31] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:51:22 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:51:44 -!- sellout- [~Adium@64.134.66.246] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:51:47 jna [u473@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bwuuutfsvaadudvy] has joined #lisp 14:54:05 billitch [~billitch@78.251.61.31] has joined #lisp 14:55:26 -!- Sgeo [~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:57:58 -!- jna [u473@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bwuuutfsvaadudvy] has quit [] 14:58:02 gman23 [~Angel-@ip68-224-160-32.om.om.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:59:02 jna [u473@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-aihzatkvdcwxseiz] has joined #lisp 14:59:24 -!- gman23 [~Angel-@ip68-224-160-32.om.om.cox.net] has left #lisp 14:59:52 Xach, p_l|backup , is there anyway to make a php script that can install and execute a CL ? 14:59:55 -!- billitch [~billitch@78.251.61.31] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:00:15 morphism: if you can't run normal binaries on the server, then not 15:00:23 silenius [~silenus@p549473C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:58 morphism: Talking to your service provider is a good idea. 15:01:01 markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 15:02:20 billitch [~billitch@78.251.61.31] has joined #lisp 15:02:43 -!- ubii_ [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:03:07 well, I know I can't ask for more from a free host 15:03:41 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA219C9.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:04:07 sellout- [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:41 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 15:05:41 sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 15:06:08 loke [~elias@bb220-255-86-21.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 15:09:57 udzinari [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 15:10:44 dlowe_nb [~dlowe@nat/google/x-zmbegqfgxwdkrsng] has joined #lisp 15:12:07 ubii [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:50 -!- sacho [~sacho@79-100-48-20.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:13:58 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-123-190.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:59 -!- billitch [~billitch@78.251.61.31] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:14:15 -!- mauryck [~mauryck@bard-nynt2-155.bard.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:14:32 -!- ubii [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:14:56 ubii [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:34 -!- ubii [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:16:55 ubii [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:29 -!- brodo [~brodo@p5B023A7F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: brodo] 15:21:32 brodo [~brodo@p5B023A7F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:55 -!- brodo [~brodo@p5B023A7F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:22:13 sacho [~sacho@79-100-48-20.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 15:22:42 brodo [~brodo@p5B023A7F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:06 some provide cgi some don't. I tend to use PHP. Like Perl it ain't pretty but it get's the job done. 15:25:16 -!- udzinari [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: zzzzzzZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzz] 15:26:20 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:26:31 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:28:23 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 15:29:28 rpr [maln@93-141-84-110.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 15:30:02 -!- zmv [~daniel@c9533906.virtua.com.br] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:30:32 Younder: gets 15:31:24 -!- dlowe_nb [~dlowe@nat/google/x-zmbegqfgxwdkrsng] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:32:09 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:32:50 -!- hsrt [maln@93-139-79-208.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:35:31 -!- ubii [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:36:29 I kinds gave up on hunchentoot when it started redefining it's interface between versions. Rewriting the app each time they come up with a new version is a tall call. 15:36:41 JigBoot [451dd617@gateway/web/freenode/ip.69.29.214.23] has joined #lisp 15:36:54 What a wonderful morning for lithping! 15:37:10 They thay that lithping ith for faggotth only 15:37:18 but I sho lubth to lithp 15:37:57 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 15:38:00 tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 15:38:19 -!- sacho [~sacho@79-100-48-20.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:38:30 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 15:38:32 -!- Xach has set mode +b *!*451dd617@*.69.29.214.23 15:38:38 Yes 'a' and 's' are next to each other and I missed. Deal with it. 15:38:41 sacho_ [~sacho@95-42-83-83.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 15:38:53 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 15:39:15 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-bkotzcouqrjogwlb] has joined #lisp 15:41:13 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:41:28 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Client Quit] 15:42:04 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 15:42:08 *Odin-* pronounces Younder to have a severe case of greengrocer's apostrophe. 15:42:29 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 15:42:42 -!- JigBoot [451dd617@gateway/web/freenode/ip.69.29.214.23] has left #lisp 15:45:33 -!- silenius [~silenus@p549473C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:45:39 pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:40 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Client Quit] 15:45:43 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7567af.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:59 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 15:46:26 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-4356673a.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:46:54 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-182-244.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:48:23 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has joined #lisp 15:48:37 Yuuhi [benni@p5483AA08.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:02 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:49:35 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Client Quit] 15:49:50 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 15:50:04 How do I declare the type of a DEFVAR variable? Is that what I use PROCLAIM for? 15:50:25 (honestly, I have a hard time figuring out the difference between PROCLAIM and DECLAIM) 15:51:26 nixfreak [~nixfreak@mn-10k-dhcp1-3174.dsl.hickorytech.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:44 (declaim (type ...type... *your-var*)) 15:52:54 (defvar *your-var*) 15:53:06 ah... so it's before the actual DEFVAR? 15:53:22 use DECLAIM instead of PROCLAIM till you know the difference :) 15:53:26 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Client Quit] 15:53:45 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 15:53:51 loke: you can do it after as well, but generally speaking the compiler will be able to do a better job if you do it before 15:54:22 eg. catching things like (declaim (fixnum *x*)) (defvar *x* "123") 15:54:39 -!- leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:54:45 nikodemus: fair enough... That said, is there an easy explanation for the difference? 15:55:11 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.199.148] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:55:35 proclaim is a function, and takes effect when it is called. so if you have (proclaim ...) at toplevel, it will take effect when the file is loaded 15:56:11 declaim will arrange for it to take effect when the file is compiled as well, and elides the need to quote the argument 15:56:54 Oh 15:57:13 I can see why PROCLAIM is less used 15:57:13 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:57:31 For use in compiler macros pehaps? 15:58:50 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:59:51 Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@1807ds2-noe.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 16:01:25 -!- sharps [~hazel@121-72-240-85.cable.telstraclear.net] has left #lisp 16:02:01 for use whenever you have a list of proclamations you need to proclaim 16:02:56 ubii [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:29 pretty rare. i can't offhand remember if i've ever really needed it 16:05:11 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-133-92.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:08:44 what's that :source-namestring do? 16:09:32 wasn't there something like that before? 16:11:56 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 16:14:10 nikodemus: it could be useful in system construction... say, asdf systems proclaiming stuff before compilation starts 16:14:58 tcr: there was :source-plist, which slime uses to identity the buffer, even if there is no file 16:15:16 otoh, an asdf system might prefer to put declaractions inside its compilation units only or something 16:15:31 but sbcl doesn't understand :source-plist at all -- it's arbitrary user-provided information 16:15:37 -!- brodo [~brodo@p5B023A7F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: brodo] 16:17:13 so :source-namestring allows C-c C-c to give a virtual namestring for the temporary files, so the redefinition muffling can compare that instead of the temporary name -- which might be same accidentally, or diffent even if the real source file is the same 16:17:28 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-dfnwrtgjajsticxg] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:19:31 timjstewart1 [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 16:19:51 antifuchs: that utility suffers from not being able to provide a dynamic scope for the proclamations portably 16:20:35 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:21:18 nikodemus: yeah 16:21:21 tcr: did that make sense? 16:22:00 nikodemus: I suppose wrapping the w-c-u inside a LOCALLY in a dynamically compiled lambda wouldn't be enougH? (: 16:22:50 steevy [~steevy@95-89-223-125-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 16:22:54 clhs: locally 16:22:59 feh 16:23:06 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-95-57.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 16:23:39 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 16:23:39 Bronsa [~brace@host149-119-dynamic.52-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:23:50 -!- timjstewart1 [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:23:58 (locally does only lexical scoping of the declarations) 16:24:10 ah, lexical only. bah. 16:24:49 longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has joined #lisp 16:24:54 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 16:25:16 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 16:26:47 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-4356673a.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:27:34 leo2007 [~leo@th041100.ip.tsinghua.edu.cn] has joined #lisp 16:27:43 -!- churib [~churib@95.156.194.105] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:27:45 kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 16:28:10 -!- kami` is now known as kami 16:28:17 antifuchs: sbcl has with-compilation-unit :policy, though, and i think most implementations have something like that 16:28:43 hello 16:29:29 trivial-proclamations! 16:30:14 yes plz 16:30:20 churib [~churib@95.156.194.105] has joined #lisp 16:34:30 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:35:51 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:25 ikki [~ikki@189.247.145.97] has joined #lisp 16:37:19 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-95-57.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:37:58 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.162.13] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:39:43 ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.178.176] has joined #lisp 16:40:02 -!- ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.178.176] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:42:14 ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.178.176] has joined #lisp 16:42:55 ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has joined #lisp 16:42:58 Jasko3 [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 16:43:57 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-4356673a.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:19 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:44:23 schoppenhauer [~christoph@2a01:4f8:101:281:7ad5:1003:0:1] has joined #lisp 16:44:27 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@2a01:4f8:101:281:7ad5:1003:0:1] has quit [Changing host] 16:44:28 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 16:46:05 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:46:32 does sbcl leak memory? 16:47:03 Anecdotally, the people who did Vendetta Online switched off of SBCL because of memory leakage. But that was a while ago. 16:47:48 cause i've had a process running for a few days, just doing excercise from the book i'm working through--nothing major, and it got pretty huge. over 1GB 16:47:56 drl [~lat@110.139.230.255] has joined #lisp 16:48:45 Might be worth trying the same code, same conditions under another implementation. Whenever I'm learning something, I've come to assume that the sort of thing you're seeing is something I've done wrong. 16:49:52 well, i'm sure i hit inf. recursion a few times, maybe that blew up the size? 16:50:27 -!- dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:51:05 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-182-244.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:52:15 ezakimak: don't forget that GC doesn't always encompass system resources. Memory leaks are by no means a "closed" system, unless you run a very simple system 16:52:41 HG` [~HG@p579F78B7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:53:04 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:55:01 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 16:55:55 francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has joined #lisp 16:56:24 spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-32-25.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:56:55 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 16:57:29 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 16:59:02 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:00:04 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:00:05 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Client Quit] 17:00:16 markskilbeck [~markskilb@host81-132-122-161.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:00:16 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@host81-132-122-161.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 17:00:16 markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 17:01:34 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 17:02:59 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-bkotzcouqrjogwlb] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:03:08 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@91.12.45.130] has joined #lisp 17:03:31 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-216-248.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:04:39 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c-3c90e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:05:27 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:05:34 jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-248.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:05:40 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Client Quit] 17:05:56 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 17:06:22 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 17:06:47 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Client Quit] 17:07:11 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 17:07:26 -!- ASau` [~user@95-26-159-184.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:08:48 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Client Quit] 17:10:08 pavelludiq [57f63ac1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 17:10:30 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@chello062178064156.22.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 17:12:55 -!- splittist [~splittist@206-69.1-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: Overheated] 17:13:23 splittist [~splittist@206-69.1-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 17:15:26 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:16:56 ASau [~user@95-26-159-184.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 17:17:54 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-ixmcvyyqlsyebomt] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:19:11 -!- splittist [~splittist@206-69.1-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: splittist] 17:20:39 -!- argiopeweb [~elliot@155.31.174.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:21:19 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:22:24 -!- spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-32-25.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 17:23:50 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip68-231-47-70.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:24:26 antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 17:24:46 -!- francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:29:25 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-32-12-181.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:02 pnq [~nick@ACA21C69.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 17:33:05 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-191-189.w2-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:33:21 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 17:33:21 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 17:33:21 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 17:35:14 -!- ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.178.176] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:35:35 Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:39 mhmh 17:35:50 i just wondered 17:38:32 having some trouble getting something that worked before to work again: http://paste.lisp.org/display/121896 17:38:44 I cannot get (check-type 22 element) to work 17:39:06 (I restarted my sbcl and am trying to reload all my files to resume) 17:39:16 -!- lanthan [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:41:10 elementp works, but check-type always causes an error condition 17:41:52 ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.178.176] has joined #lisp 17:42:12 ezakimak: that's not how CHECK-TYPE works. 17:42:19 carlocci [~nes@93.37.216.177] has joined #lisp 17:42:23 slyrus__ [~chatzilla@12.68.40.34] has joined #lisp 17:42:28 ezakimak: the first argument must be a setf-able place. 17:42:33 (check-type *a* element) also fails 17:42:48 ezakimak: How is the ELEMENT type defined? 17:42:56 I pasted it 17:43:33 i've been using it in other code just fine, but since I've tried to reload it something isn't working 17:45:07 ezakimak: Can't reproduce here. 17:46:19 -!- lusory [~bart@bb121-6-160-243.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:46:33 ezakimak: Maybe it has to do with your runtime manipulation of packages? Does it work ok if you put :export in the defpackage form instead of using the EXPORT function? 17:46:54 wait a sec. check type doesn't return t ever, it returns nil, and asserts if there's a problem, right? 17:47:06 ezakimak: Yes. 17:47:11 ahh. ding ding ding. 17:47:23 -!- loke [~elias@bb220-255-86-21.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:47:27 *ezakimak* thinks it's been working all along 17:47:53 loke [~elias@bb220-255-86-21.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 17:48:01 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:48:15 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:48:24 lusory [~bart@bb121-6-160-243.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 17:52:46 Like an after-school special. 17:53:48 -!- TheRealLongshot [~longshot@207.204.232.138] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:53:56 *Xach* tries to build babel docs, fails 17:58:17 *Xach* runs into a pre-quicklisp level of dependency hell as a result 17:58:38 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-4356673a.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:00:20 TheRealLongshot [~longshot@207.204.232.138] has joined #lisp 18:00:29 -!- slyrus__ [~chatzilla@12.68.40.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:01:08 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host149-119-dynamic.52-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:01:37 Bronsa [~brace@host120-178-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:04:39 -!- lusory [~bart@bb121-6-160-243.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:04:40 how do I append an element at the end of a list (not merge, which is what cl:append does) ? 18:04:56 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:05:07 ezakimak: What is the difference between appending and merging? 18:05:11 -!- loke [~elias@bb220-255-86-21.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:05:26 (append '(a b c) '(d e)) -> (a b c d e) 18:05:30 lusory [~bart@bb121-6-160-243.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 18:05:33 I want (a b c (d e)) 18:05:50 do I just do '((d e)) instead? 18:05:54 ezakimak: (append a (list b)) 18:06:07 loke [~elias@bb220-255-86-21.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 18:06:17 ezakimak: Yes. 18:06:43 ok 18:07:03 xan_ [~xan@99.13.242.166] has joined #lisp 18:07:22 guess ultimately that's more flexible 18:09:36 luis: Do you still have a toolchain capable of building the babel docs? 18:10:53 kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 18:11:16 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host120-178-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:11:32 Bronsa [~brace@host120-178-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:12:02 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:12:29 markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 18:12:37 -!- kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 263 seconds] 18:14:20 mauryck [~mauryck@stu234-251.bard.edu] has joined #lisp 18:15:08 -!- longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:15:47 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:05 -!- Jasko3 [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:19:02 -!- leo2007 [~leo@th041100.ip.tsinghua.edu.cn] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 18:20:45 glidesurfer [~rosario@77-64-171-36.dynamic.primacom.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:27 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:22:22 -!- ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.178.176] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:22:39 -!- kami` is now known as kami 18:25:51 -!- Guthur [c743cb8c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.140] has quit [Disconnected by services] 18:26:13 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:26:29 Night-Hacks [~amir@95.38.52.69] has joined #lisp 18:27:00 hi 18:27:17 howdy 18:27:25 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:27:29 -!- Hunden [~Hunden@p5B104637.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:27:30 are quick lisp projects both CLisp and sbcl compatible ? 18:27:42 mark__ [~markskilb@host86-136-237-36.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:27:55 Night-Hacks: QL is implementation agnostic (mostly) 18:28:08 Soulman1 [~knute@250.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:28:10 Night-Hacks: now, individual projects might have implementation-dependant issues 18:28:47 so how to know it ? 18:28:53 p_l|backup: i think this is a case of significant whitespace 18:29:01 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:29:04 Night-Hacks: do you mean "quicklisp" or "quick lisp"? 18:29:07 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 18:29:18 quicklisp 18:29:34 Night-Hacks: one way to tell is to try to load the project. if it fails, it wasn't compatible. 18:30:17 brilliant :p 18:30:22 I would like to gather that info for you, but it's not at the top of my list 18:30:29 hehehe 18:30:50 comedy everywhere today 18:30:52 common lisp: to create a common lisp standard to end all differences between different lisps 18:30:57 10 years later: differences everywhere 18:31:04 err, 17 years, more like 18:31:07 Hunden [~Hunden@p5B106778.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:10 20? not sure really 18:31:12 the only thing "common" is the word "lisp" ? :) 18:31:37 Landr: I don't think that was actually the goal of CL ever. 18:31:52 brodo [~brodo@p5B023A7F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:35 well, at the very least the goal must've been something along the lines of "creating a standard lisp" 18:33:05 Landr: what differences are you talking about? i write code which works on all implementations without any fuss 18:33:28 Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:33:36 for example... running different programs? using the stack to interface with other languages? 18:33:45 Landr: A common base on top of which innovation can be built. Every once in a while you gotta pull together the things that seem pretty figured out at the time. 18:33:57 sockets? 18:34:16 so when are they gonna pull another standard? 18:34:32 CLTL:3e any time soon? :> 18:34:34 Landr: i don't have problems with any of the mentioned 18:34:51 Landr: As soon as you provide the USD 10e6 needed to put it together. 18:35:07 well sure, you can work around the problems, but that's not the point (being standard) 18:35:13 pjb: Who did that for CL? 18:35:27 pjb: that's an optimistic estimate 18:36:07 Landr: Hopefully never. Those things moved slow enough then. Compared to how fast things change now? It'd never work. Just saying that was the idea. 18:36:41 naryl: various darpa-funded (indirectly or directly) organizations, I think 18:37:24 Landr: indeed, even if you had the money today, it'd take between 5 and 10 years to roll the new standard. 18:37:56 macrocat [~marmalade@142.177.215.153] has joined #lisp 18:38:00 (And you wouldn't eliminate the risk of failing it, watch r6rs...) 18:38:02 pfft, that's only if you allow other people a voice :> 18:38:15 just write a standard, and label it "official very formal and final standard" 18:38:18 Then you can always write a CDR. 18:38:18 people'll accept it 18:38:24 Notice, there's no size limit to the CDR. 18:38:25 -!- mauryck [~mauryck@stu234-251.bard.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:38:50 Landr: CL was more about common *base* 18:38:58 compared to ANSI C, it covers much more 18:39:23 Landr: as the w3c has shown in recent times, you can write as many standards as you like; as long as nobody implements them correctly and nobody bothers using them, it's useless busywork 18:39:38 Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-191-189.w2-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:39:44 it's not useless if you're paid to do it! 18:40:08 Sgeo [~Sgeo@137.125.191.83] has joined #lisp 18:40:14 oh yes, right. it's good for the economy! 18:40:16 stassats: Isn't that the broken window fallacy? 18:40:17 Landr: in my experience, the "differences everywhere" are "everything works between four major lisps as long as I keep to well-accepted libs like bordeaux-threads and CFFI :) 18:40:31 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:40:53 (for portable interfaces to impl. specific stuff) 18:42:27 -!- Night-Hacks [~amir@95.38.52.69] has left #lisp 18:43:10 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host120-178-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:45:09 p_l|backup: I wouldn't put "everything works" and "bordeaux-threads" in the same sentence 18:45:37 :D 18:45:55 HG`` [~HG@p579F7CBE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:05 what about just having a simpler process allowing annexation to the current standard? 18:46:05 who needs threads, anyway 18:46:07 fe[nl]ix: But at least we know who to blame (you, not me) ;) 18:46:38 elevate psuedo-standards to full-flegged status? 18:47:18 fe[nl]ix: well, I had reasonable expectations regarding "everything works", as in "doesn't bomb on me in horrible or hilarious ways" 18:47:24 ezakimak: Did you listen to gigamonkey's talk on the CL standardization process? it was pretty interesting. 18:47:29 sellout: well put 18:47:47 no, didn't know about it 18:48:03 is it posted somewhere? 18:48:29 -!- HG` [~HG@p579F78B7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:48:32 pdlogan1 [~patrick@148.sub-72-102-128.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 18:49:07 It is. /me tries to find a link 18:49:12 http://s3.amazonaws.com/weekly-repl/weekly-repl_ep-1.mp3 18:49:16 I think. 18:49:19 I mustn't be doing enough Lisp, because I don't really run into too many issues with regard standardization etc. 18:49:19 Yes, that. 18:49:20 Thanks ChibaPet 18:49:40 *Guthur* must lisp more 18:49:49 There's an hour-long weekly Lisp podcast? Wow. 18:49:55 sweet 18:50:03 *Landr* doesn't have an ipod or similar though 18:50:28 Guthur: more lisping is never wrong, but I doubt that wishing for more blessing of arbitrary specs by some random entity is a side-effect of it (: 18:50:31 that's a long intro song. 18:50:35 ezakimak: Anyway, what was interesting to me was that an important part of the process was keeping the major players from simply walking away. They had to be placated somehow, and it didn't always mean "rational discussion of the ideal way of doing a particular task." Major vendors didn't want to be forced to do major rewrites. And if they didn't stay on board the standard wouldn't mean much. 18:50:40 -!- pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:50:58 sellout: it's turning into the quarterly repl 18:51:00 sellout: there used to be. the author stopped production a few months ago 18:51:06 sigh. commitees always mean compromise, never for the overall good 18:51:10 see, i keep thinking the lisp world is kind of small 18:51:14 Ok, that makes sense :) 18:51:17 *Landr* should make a map 18:51:18 bloop [43aa6450@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.170.100.80] has joined #lisp 18:51:36 something like erdos 18:52:07 *sellout* needs to submit some stuff to Code Quarterly, and hope that gigamonkey isn't biased against lisp. 18:52:15 -!- steevy [~steevy@95-89-223-125-dynip.superkabel.de] has left #lisp 18:52:22 so, what is everyone McCarthy's number in here? :> 18:52:26 gigamonkey biased against lisp?? 18:52:39 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:52:41 Landr: 0  I _am_ John McCarthy. 18:53:03 -!- pdlogan1 is now known as pdlogan 18:53:05 o rly? o.O 18:53:15 Landr: no, not rly 18:53:44 i thought so :P 18:53:47 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 18:53:55 very very old computer people most likely still wander the dark halls of usenet 18:54:47 Landr: namaste  he McCarthy in me bows to the McCarthy in you. 18:54:54 s/he/the/ 18:57:13 I got my best reaction yet to CL in work today, I showed my boss the testing DSL I'm developing and before I could get utter symbolic expression, he said 'it's ok you've sold me on it' 18:57:30 get/even 18:57:42 nice 18:57:58 Guthur: If he says "Wow, Guther, what programming language is that?" the only correct answer is "It's a variant of Clojure" 18:58:23 He is a Java man actually 18:58:33 so that he will blame Clojure when it fails? 18:58:36 If I told him it ran on JVM, he'd probably have a cow 18:59:00 for the record i'm not using Clojure, hehe 18:59:29 DSL? 18:59:44 Domain Specific Language 19:00:18 ahh 19:00:23 like prolog? 19:00:24 CL makes it so easy it's nearly criminal not to do it 19:00:34 like LOOP 19:00:37 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:00:54 stassats, I thought that was the one case it was criminal 'to do it' 19:01:00 haha 19:01:32 or if* 19:01:50 ezakimak: Watch your language! 19:01:54 -!- pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:01:56 -!- TheRealLongshot [~longshot@207.204.232.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:02:12 Guthur: LOOP isn't easy 19:02:16 (to make) 19:02:17 *sykopomp* was linked some if* code today, with a massive chain of then/elseif then 19:02:19 my language is lisp. 19:02:28 mine is dutch :> 19:02:42 though when i program i think in english mostly 19:02:50 ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.178.176] has joined #lisp 19:02:52 *sellout* writes code in Lojban  it makes his computer sad. 19:02:53 and i try to make the computer understand what i want it to do 19:02:59 -!- glidesurfer [~rosario@77-64-171-36.dynamic.primacom.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:03:06 sadly i have to use a simpler language because computers are dumb :( 19:05:30 pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 19:06:23 lanthan [~ze@p54B7D559.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:26 -!- lanthan [~ze@p54B7D559.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:08:52 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl10-156-58.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 19:09:00 glidesurfer [~rosario@77-64-171-36.dynamic.primacom.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:35 lanthan [~ze@p54B7D559.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:32 you actually consider English superior to Lisp? you can't even pronounce parentheses in English! 19:13:32 -!- ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.178.176] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:13:40 markskilbeck [~markskilb@host86-136-237-36.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:13:40 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@host86-136-237-36.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 19:13:40 markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 19:13:42 and english uses scheme's ugly predicate convention 19:13:56 *Xach* wonders if that's why canadians favor scheme? 19:14:22 although Common Lisp's convention might be unfortunately associated with urine. :\ 19:15:09 -!- Liera [~Liera@113.172.38.77] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:15:17 -!- mark__ [~markskilb@host86-136-237-36.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:15:22 some language groups don't have the pop of the p sound 19:15:24 i actually think Scheme's convention is prettier 19:15:34 but odd to pronounce 19:15:43 but sure every speaks english anyway....hehe 19:15:44 only if your audience are children 19:15:48 what's the current verdict on arc? 19:16:01 arc doesn't sufficiently exist yet 19:16:15 well, I know it's young, but syntax, changes, is it a good direction? 19:16:21 no 19:16:53 I'd rather spend time with Racket if I were moving in that direction. 19:17:19 racket seems to be moving too fast 19:17:23 I like that it has the combination of full macros and built-in continuations. 19:17:44 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 19:17:46 was there builtin support in asdf for "load as source, do not compile" files? 19:17:49 ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.178.176] has joined #lisp 19:17:59 Don't say r*cket or you'll wake the r*cket kibo! 19:18:25 too late now 19:18:33 isn't racket just drscheme? 19:18:39 *Xach* flees 19:18:40 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has left #lisp 19:18:59 what's all this racket about? 19:19:55 -!- ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.178.176] has left #lisp 19:20:03 also I think syntax is not a bad idea so long as it's standardized and everyone knows what the reader macros expand to... 19:20:29 -!- Areil [~user@113.172.38.77] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:20:34 -!- Sgeo [~Sgeo@137.125.191.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:20:39 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 19:20:40 ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.178.176] has joined #lisp 19:21:43 -!- glidesurfer [~rosario@77-64-171-36.dynamic.primacom.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:24:13 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-191-189.w2-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:25:13 ezakimak: (equal (second (spoken-language self)) (find-language-named-in-itself "English")) --> T 19:25:21 Oops, a bug: 19:25:24 ezakimak: (equal (second (spoken-languages self)) (find-language-named-in-itself "English")) --> T 19:26:22 aren't most languages named in themself? 19:26:40 Sure, but do I speak Français or do I speak French? 19:27:03 Parle vue Francais, wi? 19:27:19 and you speak English. :) 19:27:21 (find-language-named-in "French" (find-language-named-in-itself "English")) 19:27:24 -!- HG`` [~HG@p579F7CBE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:27:53 Parlez vous Français? Oui. Do you speak English? I do. 19:28:40 (obviously I don't speak French :) ) 19:28:53 glidesurfer [~rosario@77-64-171-36.dynamic.primacom.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:15 stis [~stis@host-90-235-38-221.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 19:29:17 pjb: find-language-named (name &optional language-of-name) 19:29:35 sellout: ok, but a &key would be better here. 19:29:42 pjb: Sure. 19:31:33 (make-instance 'language :name français :nicknames french frans fransözisch) 19:32:29 (make-instance 'language :name francais :translations (:english French) (:german frans) ... ) ? 19:33:06 Something like this yes. 19:33:24 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:33:30 well no, the nicknames are then linked to other languages which already have those words :> 19:33:59 hmm, but that'd cause a confusion if there were multiple languages with homophones 19:34:31 what are you all talking about? 19:35:54 Well, there's English, and English, and English, and Engrish and AAE. 19:36:54 stassats: " my language is lisp." 19:37:38 I only speak like a toddler atm. 19:38:07 Now that's something interesting. Only speak in programming language around babies, and see if they become good programmers? 19:38:26 or computers. 19:38:26 they'd learn to think in ASTs 19:38:37 do all babies become good writers? 19:38:40 (assuming language influences thought process) 19:38:54 stassats: compared to computers or apes, yes. 19:38:55 I think writing quality is a function of thought quality 19:39:08 pjb: compared to writers 19:39:35 There are always variations in the output quality. 19:40:04 it sort of seems like multiple dispatch and duck typing don't play too well together. is that a fair assessment? 19:40:45 Just dispatching doesn't work well with duck typing. 19:41:33 nah, typically in duck-typed object systems you dispatch by hashing the symbol ('quack) into the duck object 19:41:34 Try to dispatch on (speaks pascal english) or (blue white red). 19:41:51 or at least that's how it is in Python/Javascript/Lua 19:42:04 Then you can do the same in CLOS. Use the MOP! 19:42:52 Or perhaps not, you'd have to ask Pascal C., but what you could do is to write a multiple dispatching system based on pattern matching of several parameters. 19:42:57 bloop: why don't they play well together? Think of functionss, not single messages! 19:43:39 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:43:44 but isn't the very idea of a duck-typing kind of against he idea of an object 'carrying' its type around? and don't you need it to carry its type around in order for it to tell the generic method which method to call? 19:45:12 (not a rhetorical question. i am checking my understanding) 19:45:15 bloop: what difference is there between (# a b c) and (k a b c) ? 19:46:31 pjb: so you just mean to make all ducks standard-objects and leave it at that? 19:46:32 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:46:32 perhaps I should write (# a b c) and (class1 a b c) 19:46:40 And what difference is there between # and (# a b c) ? 19:46:49 bloop: if you answer the question you'll understand it. 19:47:19 bloop: the class doesn't tell anything to the generic function. 19:47:31 The difference in the first question is that the first element of the list is either a class # or a symbol K. 19:47:44 besides its class, I guess. :) 19:47:51 err, its name. 19:47:55 The difference in the second question, is that you have an instance of the class1, and a list containing the same information: a class, and three symbols. 19:48:42 For lisp, the difference is in the result of TYPE-OF, which returns # for the instance, and LIST for the list. But this is only a difference provided by TYPE-OF. 19:49:14 pjb: isn't it also significant for dispatching though? 19:49:19 You can write (defun my-type-of (duck) (if (listp duck) (first duck) (type-of duck))) and get the same result from my-type-of for both. 19:49:44 bloop: similarly, dispatching is done by defgeneric (or implicitely when you evaluate the first defmethod). 19:50:05 bloop: you can do your own dispatching by writing your own define-duck-dispatching-function macro. 19:50:22 So there's no difference, as long as you have the same information available. 19:50:40 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:51:13 rvirding [~chatzilla@h134n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 19:51:24 is AMOP the best book on MOP? 19:51:31 Probably. 19:51:40 bloop: s/best//  yes. 19:51:53 heh 19:52:03 (it is also very good) 19:52:05 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 19:53:48 -!- dcrawford [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:54:15 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA21C69.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:55:25 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-248.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:56:32 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 19:56:35 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 20:00:26 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:03:10 francogrex [~user@109.130.59.120] has joined #lisp 20:03:39 anyone familiar with this: http://www.merl.com/reports/docs/TR93-17.pdf 20:04:20 I read it once or twice. 20:04:36 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:04:40 Nowadays, that would be a blog entries. In the old time, they wrote papers. 20:04:58 pjb, ues; did you try to apply it? 20:05:01 Not to disparage it, it's a very good article. 20:05:01 yes 20:05:18 yes i think, despite some syntax errors I think in there 20:05:34 -!- ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.178.176] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:05:39 Well, I cited the nreverse performance section, but hardware has changed a lot since. 20:05:44 -!- milanj [~milanj_@212-200-194-87.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:06:01 slime has a macroexpand-all something, I guess it was influenced by it. 20:06:02 milanj [~milanj_@212-200-194-87.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 20:06:04 for example something like this: #"~<~*~1@f~W :=~_ ~W~g~:>" ... doesn't seem right 20:06:16 And I've stayed aside pretty printting, so... 20:06:36 ok so you use a different approach for your translator 20:06:39 err, no, that doesn't seem right. This is the reason I stayed aside. 20:06:45 how is it going by the way? 20:06:50 There's a lispy format alternative outthere. 20:07:02 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-136-61.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:02 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-136-61.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:07:02 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 20:07:18 Something that is to format what iterate is to loop. 20:07:51 the lisp -> C are you still busy with it or are there other hot projects going on? 20:08:19 oh no, I'm quite busy with a lot of other projects :-) 20:08:31 good good 20:12:42 -!- workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:13:04 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:13:37 This kind of project is interesting foremost for lisp programmers who have to write alien code. 20:13:50 Right now, I don't have to write C code. :-) 20:14:14 The second use, is to write a bootstrapping lisp implementation in lisp. 20:15:33 bootstrap how? 20:15:46 computer boot? 20:16:02 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 20:17:10 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:17:25 wow, I gotta say, Racket's little intro guide is a very cool introduction to programming: http://docs.racket-lang.org/quick/index.html 20:17:32 pnq [~nick@AC82FCFA.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 20:17:36 -!- algorist [~quassel@host148-236-dynamic.6-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:18:00 dcrawford_ [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 20:18:00 dcrawford [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 20:18:13 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:18:37 -!- dcrawford_ [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:18:56 algorist_ [~quassel@host148-236-dynamic.6-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:19:14 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:00 Landr: language bootstrap. 20:20:15 Landr: how do you write a lisp in lisp when you don't already have a lisp interpreter? 20:20:36 Landr: you can write your lisp in a subset of lisp that is easily translated to an existing plateform language. 20:20:44 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 20:21:24 write it in C? :> 20:21:37 then, using that simpler lisp, write a full lisp 20:21:39 So if you write your lisp in the subset of CL that deals only with fixnums, vectors and structures, and other restrictions, you can easily translate this subset to C. 20:21:55 or work top down, that works too, i guess 20:22:16 No, don't write the lisp in C! Just write the translator of this simple lisp to c, in any language that is practical for you to write in. For example, in lisp on another computer. 20:22:38 but... I... that's too hard! 20:23:54 On the contrary! It is much easier than to write C code yourself! 20:23:59 And it's much more fun. 20:24:36 workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 20:24:58 just curious which lisp implementation(s) most folks use or would recommend for linux and/or Mac OS X 20:24:59 Landr: Squeak bootstraps like this. 20:25:03 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-49-52.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 20:25:08 ubii: ccl (clozure cl) 20:25:16 -!- milanj [~milanj_@212-200-194-87.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 20:25:34 milanj [~milanj_@212-200-194-87.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 20:25:36 ubii: ccl is good; I use sbcl most of the time though. 20:25:39 (no particular reason) 20:26:04 I'll vote for ccl there. 20:26:21 antifuchs: Are you allowed to say that? 20:26:29 ccl includes an IDE using PortableHemlock. 20:26:51 And it has an Objective-C bridge. 20:26:54 sellout: haha, yes, I am pretty sure I am (: 20:27:09 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@124-148-173-219.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 20:27:20 sellout: are you allowed to now defend ccl? (-; 20:27:29 "not defend" 20:28:06 antifuchs: I hope so! 20:28:29 for ccl, do you recommend building it from source or using svn? 20:28:31 The fact is that all the CL implementations are good. 20:28:42 using svn and building from source! 20:28:46 Even gcl has its positive points. 20:28:49 some are more good than others. 20:28:53 Exactly. 20:29:13 ubii: I think both sbcl and ccl come with pretty nice homebrew formulas. if you're using os x, I'd recommend using that (: 20:29:17 But it depends for what. 20:29:43 (On the other hand, homebrew doesn't work on ppc). 20:29:59 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:30:20 looking and doing some web development, possibly using weblocks 20:30:48 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:30:49 For this, perhaps I'd choose sbcl. 20:30:54 *antifuchs* shrugs. if you're on pcc, it's time to upgrade (: 20:30:59 yeah, sbcl is nice for web dev on os x 20:31:11 antifuchs: old macs still run nice. I see no reason to change. 20:31:17 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-49-52.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has left #lisp 20:31:42 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 20:31:48 Actually, I even have new uses for old laptop computers, requiring compilation of new software there. 20:32:24 old laptops make for great little firewall/routers 20:32:32 built-in UPS... 20:32:37 and wireless 20:32:40 In this case it's the screen I'm interested in. 20:32:59 Yep. 20:33:20 Small size screen. 20:33:25 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:33:42 alright, I guess I will use sbcl for now, since I already have it installed, but will probably check out ccl when I have more time 20:34:36 (in general, I find ccl more agreable to work with than sbcl, but the easiest is still clisp). 20:39:45 Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:41:56 why would anyone want to put (shadowing-import '(#:copy-file) '#:cl-fad) into utility library? %) 20:42:56 *freiksenet* is banging his head of metatilities 20:43:23 of the wall of* 20:43:31 -!- nullman [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:44:03 -!- pavelludiq [57f63ac1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.246.58.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 249 seconds] 20:44:31 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@91.12.45.130] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:45:12 -!- milanj [~milanj_@212-200-194-87.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 20:45:24 mauryck [~mauryck@stu234-251.bard.edu] has joined #lisp 20:45:28 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C2D82.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:34 milanj [~milanj_@212-200-194-87.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 20:46:12 nullman [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:14 -!- bloop [43aa6450@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.170.100.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:46:39 I mean we depend on about 30 different libraries, and only meta* things are giving so much trouble. I really should just get rid of somethin that depends on that 20:47:18 I get :3: Error: Unable to find 'cffi.swg' from swig 2.0.3 -cffi on macosx. Anybody has an idea of what's wrong? (On linux with swig 1.3.40 everything works well). 20:47:38 sykopomp [~sykopomp@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:59 hey guys, how to tell the compiler that res *is* a bignum in the end? (sbcl complains that 1 is not a bignum) http://paste.lisp.org/display/121902 20:48:03 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:48:03 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 20:48:20 glidesurfer: (the bignum (* (the fixnum a) 32)) 20:48:58 But you better be sure it'll be a bignum... 20:49:11 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-32-12-181.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:49:35 glidesurfer: an integer is either a fixnum XOR a bignum. 1 is a fixnum. 20:49:55 If res is 1, then res is a fixnum, not a bignum. 20:50:13 If res is bound to 1, then res is bound to a fixnum, it is not bound to a bignum. 20:50:30 but it'll be bound to a bignum in the end 20:50:50 mark__ [~markskilb@host81-152-165-172.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:50:55 The end doesn't matter, type declarations are intemporal. 20:51:32 If it starts being bound to a fixnum, and then it's rebound to a bignum, then all you can declare is that it's an integer. 20:51:32 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C2D82.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:51:46 that it is used to bind an integer. 20:52:14 okay 20:52:54 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:53:03 dlowe_nb [~dlowe@udp019327uds.ucsf.edu] has joined #lisp 20:54:19 so (declare (integer res)) [...] (loop for [...] finally (the bignum (return res))) is not allowed, is it? 20:55:12 -!- dlowe_nb [~dlowe@udp019327uds.ucsf.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 20:55:16 should be (return (the bignum res)) 20:55:28 dlowe_nb [~dlowe@udp019327uds.ucsf.edu] has joined #lisp 20:55:30 anyway, i doubt you will gain anything with it 20:57:11 okay, thanks 20:57:41 Good morning everyone! 20:58:09 markskilbeck [~markskilb@host86-137-38-78.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:58:09 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@host86-137-38-78.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 20:58:09 markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 20:58:26 and fixnum/bignum partition differs from implementation to implementation 20:58:47 -!- milanj [~milanj_@212-200-194-87.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:59:01 so, unless you don't want your code to be portable among differrent implementations and different platforms, you shouldn't use fixnum and bignum declarations 20:59:26 -!- mauryck [~mauryck@stu234-251.bard.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:59:54 fixnum has a lower bound, so it's more useful than bignum 21:00:03 stassats: any thoughts re. slime-indentation? 21:00:13 -!- mark__ [~markskilb@host81-152-165-172.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:00:18 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 21:00:40 nikodemus: nope, i haven't read your messages 21:01:20 ok 21:01:58 the only thought is that it indeed could use some love 21:02:01 Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.25.8] has joined #lisp 21:02:14 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:02:18 s0ber_ [~s0ber@111-240-165-191.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:30 -!- clsmith [~cls@ambrose.lubutu.com] has left #lisp 21:02:31 Hi all! 21:02:41 Hello Bahman. 21:02:54 Hey beach. 21:04:02 milanj [~milanj_@212-200-194-87.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 21:04:16 Bahman: Is any free time coming up so that you can act upon learning Lisp, Emacs, SLIME, etc? 21:04:21 mauryck [~mauryck@stu234-251.bard.edu] has joined #lisp 21:04:25 stassats: my current branch fixes all of my common irritants 21:04:59 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-164-89.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:05:11 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 21:06:51 glidesurfer: res cannot be bound to a bignum at the end of the loop if it is not bound to a bignum sometimes in the middle of the loop. 21:07:16 And since it starts being bound to a fixnum, it is necessarily bound to an integer during the loop. 21:08:19 So you can indeed promise that your function will return a bignum with (return (the bignum res)), but as stassats pointed out, since the partition is implementation dependant, the only way to do so portably would be to add most-positive-fixnum to the result... 21:08:34 Oh, I have to use (eql k 1) instead of (eq k 1), haven't I? (Excuse me, still learning CL) 21:09:06 you don't have to, but you may want to 21:09:09 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.3.201] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:09:15 Yes, avoid EQ in CL, it's an implementation specific thingy. 21:09:55 glidesurfer: avoid using EQ for anything other than object identity 21:09:56 it's implementation specific only for literal objects 21:10:45 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-216-248.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:10:55 -!- xan_ [~xan@99.13.242.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:12:05 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:14:01 stassats: for all characters and numbers, not just literal ones 21:14:11 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl21-90-216.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 21:14:40 beach: Yes. In fact I'm learning but with a small change in plans. Learning Scheme for now. 21:15:29 ; note: doing signed word to integer coercion (cost 20), for: the first argument of static-fun Two-arg-/ <----- what does that mean? 21:15:35 nikodemus: well, they are all literal 21:16:03 (/ (+ N 1 (* -1 (THE FIXNUM I))) I) <--- that's the line 21:16:57 (defun ? (x) (declare (type (or character number) x)) (eq x x)) ; no literals, and unspecified 21:17:01 that means that it has to box your integer 21:17:30 glidesurfer: you might want to use = instead of eql, for a bit more clarity 21:17:45 Bahman: Why the change of plans? 21:17:58 glidesurfer: is I always a FIXNUM? 21:18:16 Phoodus: (= 0 0.0) => t, (eql 0 0.0) => nil 21:18:17 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 21:18:32 nikodemus: i meant that numbers and characters are always literal, even when they're not 21:18:35 for i from 1 to k <-- where k is a fixnum 21:18:56 i don't know what the better term would be. immutable? 21:19:06 nikodemus: right, hence I would expect = to be the expected use in numeric computation like this 21:19:18 glidesurfer: then it should be ok. 21:19:31 Not that it will be useful. 21:19:49 brodo_ [~brodo@p5B02355B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:53 -!- stis [~stis@host-90-235-38-221.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:20:09 glidesurfer: performance-wise the better question is why it has to use two-arg-/ instead of being able to inline the division 21:20:52 and (* -1 x) => (- x) 21:20:52 Well obviously (+ N 1 fixnum) can be a bignum. 21:20:54 boxing the integer is noise in comparison to calling two-arg-/ (...*someone* should audit some of our compilation notes...) 21:20:54 -!- ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:22:09 -!- brodo [~brodo@p5B023A7F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:22:10 -!- brodo_ is now known as brodo 21:22:48 glidesurfer: I think the important question is, is your binoko running too slowly? Is it runnign just a bit too slowly or drastically slowly? 21:23:49 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:23:53 or are you just trying your hand at getting lisp to know the most precise datatypes at any given time? 21:25:12 I got to know the type system while doing it and I'd like to compare performance, that's everything. 21:27:41 -!- Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:27:56 steevy [~steevy@95-89-223-125-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 21:28:04 -!- steevy [~steevy@95-89-223-125-dynip.superkabel.de] has left #lisp 21:29:20 Vutral [7w9CmBZFyU@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:50 what is this: http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Category:PicoLisp , I saw this while browsing the rosetta code? any experiences? 21:29:59 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 21:29:59 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 21:29:59 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 21:30:03 glidesurfer: there's also (debug 0) and (compilation-speed 0) optimize declarations that might add a few more tweaks, if you're going for completeness 21:30:20 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl21-90-216.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 21:31:15 glidesurfer: try "for i of-type fixnum from 1 to k" and compare to macroexpansion of the loop before and after 21:31:17 nikodemus: any idea why it's using Two-arg-/ 21:31:20 ? 21:31:38 glidesurfer: it gives you a honking big compiler note about it 21:32:23 oh, hm. it doesn't actually 21:32:23 http://paste.lisp.org/display/121902#1 21:32:26 sorry 21:32:31 that's what the compiler says 21:33:37 the result type is a rational. 21:34:35 note: you don't need of-type for fixnums 21:34:37 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:34:54 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.59.120] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:37:17 Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-191-189.w2-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:37:54 markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 21:42:00 beach: After a short 1 day research I found it easier -for myself- to learn scheme. Also I'v read that learning Lisp or Scheme is not that hard after one learns one of them. 21:42:48 if you want to learn Common Lisp, it's easier to learn Common Lisp 21:44:10 cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 21:45:22 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7567af.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:46:59 -!- pdlogan [~patrick@148.sub-72-102-128.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:47:00 stassats: My main goal is to learn howto think in Lisp-family way, be it Scheme or Common Lisp. But I found Scheme easier *for me* to understand after looking at same codes written in both languages. No intention to start a flame war. Just a personal taste. 21:48:03 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:48:54 ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:49:43 Bahman: have you been reading ESR by any chance? 21:51:04 -!- sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:51:23 nikodemus: No. 21:52:14 francogrex [~user@109.130.59.120] has joined #lisp 21:52:15 nikodemus: why do you ask? :) 21:52:39 ESR's advice can sound a lot like "Learn lisp then don't use it!" 21:52:56 (day of old rediscoveries today) so guys, picoLisp? 21:53:33 Xach: The unfortunate thing is that it's impossible to do what that implies to me should be done. 21:53:44 Xach: (Not learn Lisp and use it.) 21:54:23 Sgeo [~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:24 ESR has some advice somewhere to the effect that "you should learn lisp so that you can think in lisp (and the you can stop using lisp)" -- Bahman's focus on learning to think in lisp-way just made me wonder if he'd come across that 21:54:36 Odin-: learn it and use it 21:54:43 there's no contradiction here )(: 21:54:53 or learn it and decide against using it when it's not a good fit 21:55:02 antifuchs: Yeah, but ESR recommends learning it, which means not learning it is probably a good idea. 8) 21:55:29 Odin-: i'm pretty sure he recommends learning LISP, which is something different 21:55:37 ooh. automatically negating every one of ESR's statements is probably not a good idea either. 21:55:49 nikodemus: Good point. 21:56:01 we're all downcased or capitalized here when it comes to language names, after all... 21:56:15 antifuchs: Can't be worse than taking anything he says at face value. 21:56:16 finally decide to order AMOP, looking forward to getting completely lost, hehe 21:56:17 You never know when he'll go meta and say "It is a good idea NOT to give my dessert to ESR." 21:56:54 Guthur: order AMAP then too 21:57:24 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-191-189.w2-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 263 seconds] 21:57:47 stassats, hehe, very good 21:58:01 nikodemus: Strange point. Thanks. 21:59:11 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:00:09 If I mention Racket, or ask if there are reasons to learn CL over Racket, will I get yelled at? 22:00:31 Sgeo: you'll be pointed at #scheme (: 22:00:38 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:00:44 While in general I buy the argument that it is easier to learn Spanish once you know Latin, I do not buy the argument that it is easiser to learn Spanish+Latin than just Spanish. The same goes for programming languages. So I agree with stassats. If your goal is to learn Common Lisp, it is easier to learn Common Lisp than to learn Scheme first. 22:00:46 Sgeo: they'll have an actual clue about (and interest in) it over there (: 22:00:52 Bahman: ESR's point is best ignored, really. rather the sentiment is that people coming to lisp hoping to "learn the lisp way" in the abstract more often miss the trees while looking for the forest 22:01:00 bloop [43aa6450@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.170.100.80] has joined #lisp 22:01:28 Xach: I understood it more as "learn it, even if you don't have a chance to use it later, it's worth it" 22:01:48 pdlogan [~patrick@76.sub-72-102-205.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 22:02:33 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:02:35 -!- Vutral [7w9CmBZFyU@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:03:40 francogrex: for most software today, things like picolisp newlisp whatever-variant-lisp are idiotic. 22:04:20 francogrex: machines are fast enough and have enough memory to run a 4 MB (that's mega byte) Common Lisp implementation, if not a 50 MB one. 22:05:09 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has joined #lisp 22:05:41 francogrex: so instead of messing with things like picolisp, if you want to put lisp in your application, just use CL (link to libecl.so or use abcl if you start from a legacy application). 22:05:54 indeed 22:05:58 [root@db20a ~]# free -m total used free shared buffers cached 22:05:59 -!- mauryck [~mauryck@stu234-251.bard.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:06:00 Mem: 96550 1063 95486 0 84 450 22:06:28 Even if you only use lists, and never hash tables, vectors, or clos objects, it's better to use a Common Lisp implementation than picolisp: more maintainers! 22:06:43 kleppari: should be enough for everyone 22:06:47 Mem: 24686088 24561012 125076 0 6845860 12253892 22:07:11 pjb: 256G? 22:07:16 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:07:22 24 GB 22:07:35 brb, buying more memory 22:07:39 hehe 22:07:54 8G is so small nowadays 22:08:04 *ilmari* is feeling inadequate with his 8GB 22:08:22 paul0 [~user@189.114.196.61.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 22:08:23 that's a <1.5kg 12" laptop, though :) 22:08:25 (If autocad and emacs were smart, they'd port to Common Lisp). 22:08:31 even my phone has more than enough for CL and bucket load of applications 22:08:34 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:46 ilmari: a 12" laptop with 8GB of RAM is quite adequate. 22:08:55 Guthur: exactly. 22:08:59 -!- workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:08:59 pjb: yup, thinkpad x201s FTW :) 22:09:02 core i7 22:09:08 -!- pdlogan [~patrick@76.sub-72-102-205.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:09:13 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:09:19 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has joined #lisp 22:09:30 most of 8G is filled with file cache, and after getting an SSD, it's not so important anymore 22:09:34 I think the biggest benefit of shitloads of RAM is that reads stop going to disk 22:09:37 it is not the size of your RAM, but how you use it :) 22:09:46 Mem: 264256884 181671068 82585816 0 601904 163037480 22:09:51 workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 22:10:04 you all need to learn how to use the -h switch (: 22:10:07 hehe 22:10:27 stassats: yep, I have an intel X25-M in there :) 22:10:41 antifuchs: ITYM -m 22:10:45 -!- clog [~nef@bespin.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:10:46 _death [void@common.lisp.su] has joined #lisp 22:10:56 -h is for df 22:10:58 sid3k` [~user@li298-167.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 22:11:10 albino_ [~albino@69.12.222.214] has joined #lisp 22:11:27 fmu` [UNKNOWN@an9iex1i.u10r.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:33 stassats: oh, yeah, right. free does it differently. gnah. 22:11:39 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:11:41 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@web30.webfaction.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:11:41 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:11:41 -!- adeht [void@common.lisp.su] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:11:41 -!- Intensity [kxdroiDJP5@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:11:41 -!- albino [~albino@69.12.222.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:11:41 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:11:41 -!- fmu [UNKNOWN@unaffiliated/fmu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:11:44 8GB of RAM is also useful when you have as many firefox tabs open as I do :-P 22:11:46 milkposu [~milkpost@web30.webfaction.com] has joined #lisp 22:11:49 -!- milkposu is now known as milkpost 22:12:04 I want to know whether I've got 24686088 or 24686089 KB... 22:12:04 -!- sid3k [~user@li298-167.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:12:06 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 22:12:20 pjb: rewrite free in CL 22:12:28 In a laptop it's useful to load the hard disk in the cache :-) 22:13:22 ..is there a situation where it's not useful? :P 22:13:54 kleppari: SSD 22:14:11 -!- ubii [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:14:25 reads from ram are still a heck of a lot faster 22:14:34 maybe with sata 3 ssds or pci-ex, but ram is still faster 22:14:54 kleppari: yes, but sometimes it's more important that you keep that RAM free for actual application-handled internal cache instead of stupid block cache 22:15:19 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:38 p_l|backup: block cache will quickly be dropped under memory pressure 22:15:59 ubii [~user@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:22 ilmari: ...you'd hope (: 22:16:38 in reality, linux often enough thinks it's a good idea to start swapping 22:16:43 very facepalm-worthy 22:16:48 McMAGIC--Copy [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 22:16:49 disable swap! 22:17:00 ilmari: yes, eventually (not quickly), but why not configure it to small amount from beginning, if nearly all of your app is in memory, and it does I/O in immediate mode anyway? 22:17:03 with 8GB+, that's probably a good idea anyway. 22:17:03 Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:17 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:19:10 /proc/sys/vm/swappiness 22:19:40 kleppari: VM handling is broken in Linux anyway 22:20:42 it's just that for typical use it doesn't show 22:21:07 in what way? 22:21:33 p_l|backup: then it's arguably not broken for typical use :-P 22:22:09 kleppari: system repeatedly lies about memory use and availability, doesn't handle flags marked as supported in docs, etc. 22:22:49 ilmari: till your "user" screams "FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUU-" and curses various things he suspects, because suddenly machine ground to halt and random applications dies 22:22:50 pdlogan [~patrick@89.sub-72-102-214.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 22:22:52 *died 22:23:01 lies about memory use? memory overcommit? 22:23:25 kleppari: that too. I'm not completely against overcommit, I'm against the way it's handled in Linux 22:23:59 ok - I'm not disagreeing, I don't know the vm implementation that well - I'm just curious. :) 22:24:05 which is kinda "let's just lie that there's memory and pray it doesn't fail horribly in nondeterministic way that will leave a non-techie completely dumbfounded" 22:24:14 "random application died" meaning something died that was not the one with the runaway memory usage? 22:24:28 Phoodus: yep, just the one that most recently asked for more ram 22:24:29 Phoodus: usually the application killed is not the memory hog that caused lack of memory 22:24:36 huh 22:24:42 there's "heuristics" involved 22:25:01 kleppari: the OOM killer is a bit more clever than that 22:25:07 I've had runaways, but never got to that point. Probably because our (for whatever reason) default of 24GB swap partition would take unearthly long to fill :-P 22:25:24 -!- pnq [~nick@AC82FCFA.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:25:26 Soulman2 [~knute@250.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 22:25:28 that somehow manage to leave 1.6GB Firefox process and kill the 512MB virtual machine. All on 1.5G ram + 1G swap 22:25:31 been able to get in & kill the right app every time 22:25:32 xan_ [~xan@208.80.69.187] has joined #lisp 22:25:45 Phoodus: desktop, right? 22:25:49 yep 22:26:11 -!- Soulman1 [~knute@250.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:26:13 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:26:14 Phoodus: well, on laptops there's tendency that slow I/O makes the system grind to halt before you manage to kill anything 22:26:15 of course, X hangs mightily, so rescue is done by ssh'ing in from the laptop 22:26:58 (and if you don't have wired connection, the wifi card might die from lack of memory too) 22:27:04 ... wired connection probably as well 22:28:39 fe[nl]ix: weren't you working on a cl bittorrent library? 22:28:57 (I might have a use case for one) 22:29:10 -!- ubii [~user@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:29:20 antifuchs: not any more 22:29:23 ah, there's https://github.com/nja/cl-bencode#readme 22:29:29 good enough for my purposes! 22:29:46 *p_l|backup* will probably have a binding to few crypto libs finished by tommorrow night :/ 22:29:47 (I don't need any file hashing stuff, just need to do some tracker querying) 22:29:50 i remember it being slow 22:30:08 slow is no problem for me. broken would be (: 22:30:15 (well, to the point of it being usable for me, which menas BCrypt, ECDH, ECDSA, etc.) 22:31:53 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:33:10 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 22:33:50 Intensity [y3vaVL8iOs@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 22:35:23 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A33E9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:35:59 -!- pdlogan [~patrick@89.sub-72-102-214.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:37:24 pnq [~nick@ACA2368C.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 22:37:24 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-133-92.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:37:41 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has joined #lisp 22:38:16 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.59.120] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:39:06 -!- dlowe_nb [~dlowe@udp019327uds.ucsf.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:44:17 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:44:39 enthymeme [~kraken@rrcs-64-183-86-53.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:47:09 marmalade_ [~marmalade@142.177.226.101] has joined #lisp 22:47:14 jmbr [~jmbr@157.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 22:47:19 -!- macrocat [~marmalade@142.177.215.153] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:47:24 clog [~nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 22:48:27 sykopomp [~sykopomp@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has joined #lisp 22:48:50 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:48:50 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 22:51:19 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:51:31 -!- workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:51:53 pdlogan [~patrick@98.sub-69-96-159.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:21 hm, what can I use to make it easier to read lisp code? I'm getting pretty confused when I have to wirte nested mapcars 22:58:08 paul0: proper indentation 22:58:14 i use a pair of eyes connected to some brain 22:58:33 also, you might refactor some of the nesting to cl:flet 22:59:21 dlowe_nb [~dlowe@udp089152uds.ucsf.edu] has joined #lisp 22:59:58 -!- Triplefault [~Mouse@adsl-72-145-215-164.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:00:32 pyrony [~epic@office1.klout.com] has joined #lisp 23:00:37 ok. 23:00:53 -!- cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:00:57 cool 23:00:58 also, don't write nested mapcars 23:01:01 paul0: Sometimes a strategic LET helps. 23:01:32 pyrony: New here? 23:01:49 beach: si 23:01:55 paul0: Can you show us some code that makes you confused? 23:02:27 on the doll, if it makes you more comfortable 23:02:59 dlowe_nb: ? 23:02:59 -!- Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:03:07 paste us some lisp 23:03:09 ... holy shit. I didn't expect for EU's FP7 (Seventh Framework Programme) to save my bacon tonight o_O (and yes, it's relevant to lisp - It gave me an interesting, checked crypto lib to link to CL) 23:03:18 pdlogan1 [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:03:26 beach: it's a joke. Probably States-specific 23:04:00 beach: I'm reading the Land of Lisp, it was some code from the dice of doom v2 that confused me, http://landoflisp.com/dice_of_doom_v2.lisp, the attacking function has nested mapcans 23:04:18 Vutral [EZMoBF7zMo@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:27 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.145.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:04:40 -!- glidesurfer [~rosario@77-64-171-36.dynamic.primacom.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:04:46 but I think that i just need some more practice with lisp, learning it by myself is pretty hard since it is very different from C-like languages 23:05:41 true - but you also get an environment that lets you experiment easily to figure out a solution that works! (: 23:05:55 -!- pdlogan [~patrick@98.sub-69-96-159.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:06:16 also, the indentation from the book isn't like the code from the site, because of width limitations in the printed book 23:07:41 antifuchs: I'm using slime with emacs, but this clisp errors are too verbose for me 23:08:26 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-45-145.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:08:37 -!- sid3k` is now known as sid3k 23:09:07 paul0: all I can say is that you'll get used to them... I was overwhelmed at first, too 23:09:22 but after a while you learn to read the patterns/ignore the useless stuff 23:11:20 -!- fmu` is now known as fmu 23:11:23 yeah, I hope it doesn't take too long, debugging lisp applications is pretty hard for me 23:12:16 I'm learning lisp in my spare time over the last months, few weeks ago I've finally did some useful stuff (parse some data from government site) 23:12:28 I think the most important hint that I wish I'd gotten back then is to ignore the stack frames with "error" and "signal" in them at the top. 23:12:57 using cl-mongo and sbcl, it is faster than my previous ruby version also 23:13:01 often, the interesting stuff will start a few frames down 23:13:06 paul0: that's just great (-: 23:13:51 it's hard to go slower than ruby 23:14:31 especially Ruby 1.8.x or older 23:15:00 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:15:41 stassats: haha, but sbcl isn't the fastest thing, php is usually faster 23:15:54 are you serious? 23:16:00 interesting (: 23:16:57 -!- Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.25.8] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:17:12 TIL :) 23:18:33 well, in my experience with php, it is really fast 23:19:07 compared to what? 23:19:18 compared to most interpreted languages 23:19:42 that's not much of a bar 23:19:44 paul0: SBCL doesn't have interpreter enabled by default 23:19:50 it's all compiled 23:19:52 would you be surprised to learn that SBCL is a compiler? 23:20:13 p_l|backup: when loading my parser and quicklisp, it takes a few seconds to start 23:20:25 paul0: because linking and/or compiling is slow 23:20:45 have you tried saving an image? 23:20:47 paul0: startup time is ridiculously slow on sbcl; better compare run times (-: 23:21:18 stassats: kinda yes and kinda no. I personally use SBCL though SLIME, so it kinda happens behind the scenes, so it doesn't feel like you're engaging a compiler. 23:21:34 paul0: SBCL comes from a line of software that was quite invested in "getting maximum speed" 23:21:45 hm, I want to learn about compiling binaries using sbcl, still don't know how 23:21:54 enthymeme: the best way to remind yourself SBCL compiles everything is to use cl:disassemble on functions you defined interactively (: 23:21:59 haha 23:22:17 antifuchs: and then play with declarations and compilation options to see how it changes :D 23:22:22 it's really a pretty nice demo (: 23:22:23 paul0: sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die 23:22:31 p_l|backup: yeah, that too (: 23:22:33 paul0: Compiling and generating binaries are two orthogonal concepts. 23:22:39 still, just seeing the assembly is quite nice (: 23:22:42 note that there's M-x slime-disassemble-definition 23:22:51 my favourite was noticing that my code was modifying itself due to a bug in it 23:23:12 p_l|backup: ooh, awesome. 23:23:20 cool 23:23:30 *stassats* has it bound to C-c M-d 23:24:17 enthymeme: I finally understood more than "modifying literals is undefined" when I noticed that my code constantly referred and modified a fixed location relative to stack pointer... 23:25:01 sbcl is running fast (except when loading), but mongodb is struggling with my database that has almost four million entries, need to fix that 23:25:38 paul0: How big is an entry? 23:26:00 -!- Soulman2 [~knute@250.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 23:26:10 beach: it is the person's ID, name and the total sum received from the federal government 23:26:28 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:26:35 general purpose dbs are rarely the fastest thing 23:26:39 paul0: That should be no problem, neither with respect to space nor with respect to time. 23:26:41 I already have 3.6 million documents in my mongodb 23:27:10 I just downloaded and am running LispBox 23:27:24 For the most part, is the menu sufficient for using SLIME? 23:27:29 As I get started? 23:27:34 -!- benny [~benny@87.122.131.0] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:27:36 perhaps 23:27:49 (I've used emacs before to know by heart the commands for saving, loading files, etc.) 23:27:59 Not anything language-specific though 23:28:03 but it's rather inconvenient, i would say 23:28:05 Sgeo: the most important commands are M-. and C-c C-c anyway (: 23:28:26 Sgeo: using the rest via the menu should be fine to start with, I guess 23:28:35 (oh, and M-, to go back from M-.) 23:28:53 Just tried M-. 23:29:02 I just previously did a defun add 23:29:09 once you start reading large amounts of code, the slime-xref things are helpful 23:29:13 Now M-. says No known definition 23:29:31 how did you do that defun? 23:29:33 works only on definitions inside files, not from the repl 23:29:52 Ah 23:29:54 (or buffers, depending on the slime version; the one in the lispbox distribution might be outdated by now) 23:30:16 i wonder whether with the recent changes by nikodemus it would be easy to make M-. to work in the repl 23:30:17 argiopeweb [~elliot@59.74.91.184.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:30:19 have to go now, thanks for the help 23:30:24 paul0: good luck (: 23:30:45 if you have an emacs installation already, I'd recommend throwing out the lispbox thing and using quicklisp & the quicklisp-slime-helper to get a really recent & nice slime 23:31:05 stassats: that would be /really/ sweet (: 23:31:14 which would be a cool thing, albeit leading into thinking that it's safe to use repl to write code 23:31:59 __class__ [~class@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:03 that feeling will get shattered soon enough, I'm sure (-; 23:32:23 __main__ [~main@adsl-99-173-15-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:26 stassats: but jumping to the truest available definition = good. 23:32:31 I installed Clojurebox a while ago :/ 23:32:34 -!- basho__ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-152-151.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:32:46 No real idea how to modify anything though 23:33:14 I'm familiar enough with emacs to be able to save stuff, split the screen into several windows, etc. 23:33:20 Not enough to download stuff and use it 23:33:42 Sgeo: check out http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/ - I'd say it's as easy to get started with as lispbox, but is more modern and doesn't leave you stranded once you decide to get real work done 23:34:09 Mimomo635 [~Mimomo635@2.146.25.8] has joined #lisp 23:34:26 That doesn't come with a lisp, boo 23:34:51 true; download the latest sbcl binary from http://www.sbcl.org/platform-table.html and you should be set (: 23:34:54 Hmm 23:35:05 LispBox comes with quicklisp... 23:35:12 whoa. it does? 23:35:19 eek, I'll have to revise my advice (: 23:35:47 http://common-lisp.net/project/lispbox/ 23:36:06 The gigamonkeys link seems to imply LispBox is out of date 23:36:20 LispBox is like training wheels for your lamborghini 23:37:00 Is there any reason it comes with Clozure instead of SBCL? 23:37:49 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:38:03 it's more windows friendly 23:38:23 Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.25.8] has joined #lisp 23:38:34 Works for me >.> 23:38:40 -!- pdlogan1 [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has left #lisp 23:38:57 -!- Mimomo635 [~Mimomo635@2.146.25.8] has quit [Client Quit] 23:39:30 Do most lispers, when using emacs, have a lower window open to the REPL? 23:39:48 Or is that just a DrRacket idea that I got stuck in my head? 23:39:57 I use the slime-selector to switch to the repl from any buffer 23:39:58 don't know about most, but i do 23:41:10 *_3b* frequently doesn't have the repl visible at all, and tests in comments with output to minibuffer or slime inspector 23:41:56 *Sgeo* wants to play with CLOS rather than do much of a tutorial :/ 23:42:19 -!- tsuru [~charlie@adsl-74-179-198-44.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:42:33 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.9.66.253] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:42:42 you need to know CL part, before venturing into OS part 23:42:55 -!- dlowe_nb [~dlowe@udp089152uds.ucsf.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:43:33 MoALTz [~no@92.9.66.253] has joined #lisp 23:43:46 When I do (require 'cl-opengl) SBCL (or Slime) crashes leaving a message "Process inferior-lisp trace/BPT trap" on the inferior-lisp buffer. How to fix this? I just upgraded slime. 23:43:49 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@157.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:44:15 it wants to run in the main thread 23:44:30 -!- Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.25.8] has quit [Quit: Ave Atque Vale] 23:44:59 how to fix this? one way would be not to use threads for slime 23:45:02 Also now It get a message when I do m-x slime: "Versions differ: 2011-01-20 (slime) vs. 2011-04-16 (swank) 23:45:15 peterhil`: you need to restart emacs 23:45:48 Ok, thanks. That solved the latter problem. 23:46:02 But how I run SLIME without threads? 23:46:15 With SBCL without threads? 23:46:16 try doing (setf swank:*communication-style* :fd-handler) in ~/.swank.lisp 23:46:25 -!- argiopeweb [~elliot@59.74.91.184.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:46:33 i don't know how well it works on OSX, though 23:46:41 Can I set the coding-style to utf-8 there also? 23:46:52 style? 23:47:33 you set slime-net-coding-system to 'utf-8-unix in your .emacs 23:47:49 Yes I have (setq slime-net-coding-system 'utf-8-unix) in .emacs 23:48:05 -!- rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:48:08 and makes sure that your SBCL default external format is utf-8, although i don't know how to ensure that on Mac OS 23:48:09 I was just wondering if I could also specify it for swank. 23:48:30 What swank actually is? A listener for slime communication? 23:48:40 a common-lisp part of slime 23:48:50 Ok 23:49:48 Ok, now (require 'cl-opengl) starts compiling 23:49:56 if using non-supported ways, (setf sb-impl::*default-external-format* :utf-8) could be enough 23:50:13 I was actually trying to use lispbuilder-sdl, but that required cl-opengl 23:50:28 (non-supported as in it's not guaranteed to work in future versions) 23:51:53 Ok 23:52:26 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 23:53:10 What other communication styles there are? Now there is an sbcl icon on the dock 23:53:54 fd-handler works not well enough? 23:54:18 -!- orivej [~orivej@host-90-146-66-217.spbmts.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:55:19 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-174-155.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:56:06 Ah well, it seems it just opened another process for copmiling cl-opengl or something. Now there is no sbcl in the dock. 23:56:14 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 23:56:40 maybe it created a window? 23:56:50 Could be 23:57:01 Although I didn't see any window 23:57:10 an invisible window 23:57:31 Well, thanks anyway. Now everything works again. 23:58:42 orivej [~orivej@host-85-146-66-217.spbmts.ru] has joined #lisp 23:59:07 communication styles are listed in the slime manual.