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Does anyone know (in SBCL) how to get a file descriptor from a string without actually writing a file. Such a pipe or something? 00:50:41 I'm trying to pass a password to openssl without hitting the disk. 00:53:08 -!- wubo [~user@c-68-55-91-8.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:53:15 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 00:53:36 pers: just to ask a silly question, why a file descriptor? Do you mean you want to read from a stream, into which you can feed the password from an external process? 00:53:38 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 00:54:54 jfleming: openssh can read a passphrase in several ways, with only a few being secure. One is to pass it a file descriptor number, another is stdin. I'm already passing the data to encrypt via stdin. 00:55:04 pers: see the docstring of sb-ext:run-program 00:55:57 pers: You could use the same general idea, I think, to make your own pipe & fd-stream to write to. 00:56:18 I don't think there's a short way to do it with the existing options to sb-ext:run-program. 00:56:20 Xach: yea. I'll dig into the source of run-program and see how it does it for the stdin 00:56:47 pers: what Xach said. It depends, though, on the nature of the Lisp app - is it a persistent process that you're sending information to, or more like a script that is invoked for the purpose? If the latter, then runtime arguments are what you want. 00:57:47 pers: i'm not sure copying run-program's actual code would be a good idea, since it predates sb-posix. 00:58:05 pers: but the idea should be adaptable. 00:58:07 huangho [~vitor@201-66-209-19.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 00:58:16 jfleming: It is not persistent. runtime arguments? 01:00:36 pers: sorry, I'm thinking of the --eval argument to sbcl, that can be used to invoke a function and pass it arguments. I do this with startup shell scripts, mostly. 01:01:24 jfleming: np, the comments for RUN-PROGRAM are very educational. I think creating a pipe and a few fd streams will do the trick. 01:03:11 -!- umbriaco [~user_name@ip-83.57.99.216.dsl-cust.ca.inter.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:03:31 Or, if you're calling it from a shell-script, you could set and export environment variables, then have SBCL read those :) 01:04:36 jfleming: not secure for passing passwords. 01:06:23 pers: true. Well, you could have it listen on the localhost interface, and use (say) HTTP POST to pass the request and arguments, just to get nice and baroque; if an attacker can sniff lo, the game's already over. 01:07:07 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@a91-152-135-21.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:07:11 that sounds just like a more complicated way of using a file descriptor ;) 01:11:48 jfelming: my word! you must be pulling my leg. 01:11:59 -!- cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:17:02 -!- xan_ [~xan@199.83.221.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:17:42 SpitfireWP_ [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 01:18:19 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.206.158] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 01:18:43 -!- guaqua [gua@kapsi.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:19:31 vert2_ [vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-reqcciwifthhflfm] has joined #lisp 01:19:43 guaqua [gua@kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 01:19:55 rabite_ [~rabite@4chan.fm] has joined #lisp 01:20:11 nyef: While you are thinking of a silica replacement, please give some thought to eliminated the medium concept (at least at the lowest level), and to eliminating the enable/disable flag (I don't know what it is for). 01:20:29 -!- splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:20:30 -!- rabite [~rabite@4chan.fm] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:20:30 -!- pers [~user@174-24-11-178.clsp.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:20:30 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:20:30 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:20:30 -!- vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:20:30 -!- prip [~foo@host33-131-dynamic.47-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:20:30 -!- trigen [~MSX@ec2-46-51-179-218.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:20:31 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:20:31 -!- vert2 [vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-ztndvdcecwybpngv] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:20:31 -!- sirmacik [sirmacik@unaffiliated/sirmacik] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:20:31 -!- rootzlevel [~hpd@static.6.236.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:20:38 nyef: And now I leave for work, so I can't see your reaction to that :) 01:20:46 sirmacik [sirmacik@unaffiliated/sirmacik] has joined #lisp 01:21:07 rootzlevel [~hpd@static.6.236.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lisp 01:21:44 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:21:54 trigen [~MSX@ec2-46-51-179-218.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 01:22:15 vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 01:22:25 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 01:22:29 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.157.50] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:24:11 splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 01:24:13 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.157.50] has joined #lisp 01:24:40 cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has joined #lisp 01:24:51 I *did* say it was baroque :) 01:25:47 -!- rabite_ [~rabite@4chan.fm] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:26:15 rabite [~rabite@4chan.fm] has joined #lisp 01:27:17 what about GNU Assuan, or would there be a license error? ;) 01:30:12 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.157.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:30:14 pers: if it helps, I'm a sysadmin who looks after web apps, and has jumped through the hoops of securing corporate webservers once or twice. It was always fun finding a compromise between securing the SSL keys, and having the servers start up automatically without waiting for a datacentre operator to go find the passphrase and type it in. 01:31:21 prip [~foo@host33-131-dynamic.47-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 01:32:04 To look at it another way, what attacks are you defending against? And where is that passphrase coming from? 01:32:38 ... damn. Missed the chance to talk things over with beach. 01:33:59 Mediums are graphics contexts, they're staying. And the enable/disable flag is MapWindow() by any other name. 01:38:05 sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:38:31 jfleming: what about using SSL accelerators and tamper-proof keystore-with-fill-device mechanism, where one could monitor queries for keys and have single point of entering passphrase? :) 01:38:41 -!- sacho [~sacho@95-42-64-32.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:39:28 p_l|backup: y'know, whenever we talked about things like that (or our salaries, for that matter) they'd cry poor. Never any money to go around. In theory, yes: those things would be wonderful :) 01:39:33 sacho [~sacho@79-100-48-20.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 01:39:39 haha 01:41:00 The one time I worked for a big company, I found SSL accelerator (or two) in the server room... but well, telecom :D 01:41:18 On the other hand, we _did_ have a datacentre with reasonable physical security, passwords locked in a cabinet to which no one person had both the key _and_ the combination, and operators who were pretty good about enforcing entry policies. So we concluded that, if you have access to the host itself, we're screwed anyway. 01:41:55 jfleming: well, physical access always means "screwed" unless you do it like that guy in San Francisco that ended in jail :) 01:41:57 I did satisfy the requirement for not having plaintext passwords on the hard drive, though, to the auditors' satisfaction. By "encrypting" them with ROT13. 01:42:13 ... lol 01:42:32 *p_l|backup* is currently working out a scheme where BCrypt is used for file identifiers 01:42:38 p_l|backup: there's also remote access - if you can find a way in over the wire and get root privileges, the effect is similar. 01:42:54 I nearly used NSA Suite B stuff for crypto ^^; 01:43:21 *jfleming* has never spent vaguely enough time working with crypto. 01:43:23 jfleming: well, that can be mitigated, but it would require lots of initial work 01:43:34 -!- kkopiec [~kkopiec@host109-153-197-129.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:43:40 In a system where we did need to store plaintext passwords in the core of things, we did base64-encode them, just so they would be immediately visible when doing low-level work 01:43:42 But I'm moving into networks now, so I'm moving from one set of complex problems to another. 01:43:49 would NOT be immediately visible 01:44:09 for a long time I was happy with GPG and SSL, but I've been looking into CYA encryption for a startup recently 01:44:17 Phoodus: defence against fat fingers? Sounds like a good principle to me. 01:44:19 so there's some value in that, but definitely not for securing from intrusion :) 01:44:34 pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 01:44:58 jfleming: you do a DB dump to debug something weird, you see jibberish instead of passwords, even though they're still accessable as plaintext 01:45:35 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:46:03 Triplefault [~Mouse@adsl-72-145-215-164.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:46:16 I promise this _is_ related to the channel topic, because one of my next tricks is to play with networking in Lisp. Dijkstra's algorithm should be fun; after that, I'll try OSPF and BGP, and see how far I can take those. 01:46:33 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.157.50] has joined #lisp 01:46:45 -!- markskil1eck [~mark@host86-137-35-123.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:47:11 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-78-13-249-96.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:47:19 longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has joined #lisp 01:47:33 Demosthenes [~demo@m312436d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 01:47:45 jfleming: there's a company in Zurich that does IP munging in CL 01:47:53 Tclo 01:47:55 *Teclo 01:48:12 I know. Don't think I haven't thought about trying to talk my way into a job with them :) 01:48:24 haha 01:48:29 just try :) 01:49:14 My partner and I are planning to move to Europe anyway, so I figure the routing code should be a reasonable interview opener. 01:49:48 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 01:49:54 We're currently in Sydney, and I'm not sure how they'd feel about me telecommuting. Could always ask, I guess. 01:50:10 -!- cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:50:30 -!- compmstr [~compmstr@adsl-074-185-008-197.sip.clt.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:51:23 guther_ [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-evwmxyzuqvxfpeyh] has joined #lisp 01:52:10 -!- guther_ [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-evwmxyzuqvxfpeyh] has quit [Client Quit] 01:52:52 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:59:57 huangho_ [~vitor@201-66-171-200.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 02:00:10 -!- pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:00:25 -!- huangho [~vitor@201-66-209-19.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:01:12 -!- huangho_ [~vitor@201-66-171-200.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Client Quit] 02:01:33 huangho [~vitor@201-66-171-200.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 02:06:58 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:11:56 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:12:17 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 02:12:24 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:16:20 jweiss_ [~user@cpe-069-134-063-238.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:16:55 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:17:04 huangho_ [~vitor@201-66-140-43.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 02:17:14 pnq [~nick@ACA2D618.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 02:19:44 -!- huangho [~vitor@201-66-171-200.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:22:10 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:22:41 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 02:24:23 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:25:51 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-190-145.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 02:26:08 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-64-222-131-96.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 02:27:13 symbole [~user@ool-182ff693.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:28:10 -!- jweiss_ [~user@cpe-069-134-063-238.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:28:22 _pw_ [~user@123.112.69.29] has joined #lisp 02:29:37 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-76-248-233-251.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 02:31:17 spiaggia [~user@113.161.72.9] has joined #lisp 02:31:24 Good morning everyone! 02:31:42 good morning, sort of 02:31:44 good $LOCAL_TIME 02:32:44 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483AAE3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:33:29 Yuuhi [benni@p5483B458.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:34:36 -!- zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Changing server] 02:35:10 justin__ [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:24 -!- sykopomp [~user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:35:37 -!- justin__ is now known as zenlunatic 02:40:38 teppey [~teppey@z172213.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 02:41:26 -!- huangho_ [~vitor@201-66-140-43.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 02:46:54 cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.139.98.69] has joined #lisp 02:52:19 benny [~benny@i577A855F.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 02:53:03 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@m312436d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:53:13 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 02:53:24 -!- splittist2 [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:54:53 -!- _pw_ [~user@123.112.69.29] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:55:13 _pw_ [~user@123.112.69.29] has joined #lisp 02:57:36 splittist2 [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 03:01:07 el-maxo_ [~max@p5DE8F53F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:43 carrot_ [43aa6450@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.170.100.80] has joined #lisp 03:02:06 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:02:07 cee-loss versus kloss : go! 03:03:45 -!- ASau [~user@93-80-248-41.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:04:04 ASau` [~user@93-80-248-41.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 03:04:26 -!- el-maxo [~max@p5DE8E464.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:07:14 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 03:08:07 carrot_: tom-ah-to vs tom-ay-to... carry on about your business :P 03:12:49 carrot_: New here? 03:13:28 xan_ [~xan@205.158.58.41.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:44 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 03:15:05 yeah i had assumed there would be a clear preference.,, or some indication of who says what in what parts of the culture? 03:15:45 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 03:15:59 carrot_: I say "cee-loss" and "klim". Scott McKay says "kloss" and "cee-lim". 03:16:01 A preference for non-stupid questions. 03:16:35 is one more 'old-timey' like using the word 'hacking' where younger people would say 'coding' etc 03:16:35 carrot_: As Zhivago points out, not very interesting. 03:16:58 I suggest that you pronounce it as "marzipan". 03:17:30 how often do you guys work in person with others in CL? 03:17:50 Demosthenes [~demo@m4c2436d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:12 this is not new ground carrot 03:18:51 there are also or were people who say "claws" 03:19:02 so i should just google pronounciation history? 03:19:22 carrot_: I think the general consensus is that it really doesn't matter. 03:19:29 you should consider it irrelevant and use whatever you like 03:20:14 it's an anti-shibboleth 03:21:18 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:21:35 markskilbeck [~mark@host86-136-236-147.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 03:21:35 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@host86-136-236-147.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 03:21:35 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 03:22:15 huh. C is full of em. at one school they say "care" and on the other they say "char" etc 03:23:01 I guess the fact that I don't know of any shibboleths is a good indication of their non-existence 03:23:30 -!- carrot_ [43aa6450@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.170.100.80] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:23:36 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-hjkeqtkwvhfswpuu] has joined #lisp 03:23:42 they usually only come in where the main register of the language doesn't predictate a pronounciation 03:23:59 in which case you need to be in on it 03:24:10 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:24:38 or a set of them as in your C example 03:25:06 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 03:26:04 -!- cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:26:15 and no, by definition, your ignorance is no sign of the non-existence of a shibboleth 03:26:29 *drdo* is wondering what the hell you people are talking about 03:26:52 drdo: You can safely continue what you were doing. 03:27:06 the pronunciation of the object system 03:28:06 oh 03:28:31 I pronounce it klós 03:28:31 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.132.55] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:28:44 the one negative shibboleth is that is never called C L O S, by the letters of the acronym 03:28:50 *it is 03:28:55 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.132.55] has joined #lisp 03:29:24 CodingDistrict [~clarence@d142-179-33-76.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 03:29:45 ah sorry, didn't see e left 5 min ago 03:30:42 Oh, didn't notice, i pronounce it exactly like "claws" as you said above 03:31:31 Shit, english spelling is irregular as fuck 03:32:05 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@m4c2436d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:32:38 Demosthenes [~demo@m462436d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 03:33:55 drdo: Pretty much, though that depends somewhat on the particulars of your sex life. To misquote slightly... 03:34:49 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:35:04 "Carrying on about the 'purity' of the English language makes as much sense as asserting the 'purity' of the English race. We haven't borrowed words from other languages, so much as pursued them down blind alleys, knocked them unconscious and rifled their pockets for anything that looks useful." 03:35:47 when in doubt, assume it's a west/east coast thing. 03:35:51 jfleming: It's not about the purify, it's just about the writing 03:35:54 It started as a nasty collision between Germanic and Latin, then evolved and accreted features from there. 03:35:55 *purity 03:36:19 In english i can't look at a word and know how to pronounce it 03:36:23 In portuguese, i can 03:36:49 drdo: that's the *reason* for the irregularity of the writing. It's the result of more-or-less randomly combining bits of many languages over a long time. 03:37:01 jfleming: All languages are like that 03:37:12 pkhuong: east/west coast of which island? :P 03:37:58 jfleming: of the world (according to baseball). 03:38:23 drdo: most of them have done that in some way, but I believe English is in a league of its own. I'm a native speaker and very fond of the language, but it's a mongrel with legs sticking out from the weirdest of places. 03:38:43 ubii [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has joined #lisp 03:38:46 pkhuong: well fielded. 03:40:09 jfleming: Why didn't english ever adopt diacritics? 03:40:21 They make life much easier 03:41:18 that assumes a prescriptive view of syntax and grammar. 03:41:49 -!- TheRealLongshot [~longshot@180.184.38.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:41:50 What do you mean? 03:42:31 drdo: English has diactritics (depending on your definition of diacritics of course). 03:43:04 America has lots of diacritics. Tom Cruise, John Trovolta, etc... 03:43:12 oh, wait, never mind 03:43:21 drdo: I really don't know why not, but in what way do you find they make life easier? Bear in mind that I don't know what I'm missing, there, so don't feel any lack. 03:43:23 evening everyone 03:43:31 Hey slyrus_. 03:43:48 hey beach, how's HCM? hot? 03:43:49 jfleming: You get to know exactly how to pronounce words 03:43:51 slyrus: cute. Very cute. I'd have gone with Stadtler and Waldorf, myself - they were always pretty dire critics :P 03:44:08 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:44:09 slyrus_: Not too bad. I was in Hoi An the other day though, and it was much hotter there. 03:44:11 yes, I suppose those guys are actually the opposite of dia-critics 03:44:34 drdo: that can be done simply by sticking with a regular pronunciation of letters. 03:44:45 summer has come early to the west coast of norther california -- for the moment at least 03:44:48 drdo: English uses implicit unmarked ligatures instead. 03:44:57 jfleming: It can, but then you're missing some sounds 03:45:08 That english already has 03:45:11 Well, optionally marked. 03:45:23 So you have things like fl and oe and so on. 03:45:34 Zhivago: what? 03:46:13 foedit, for example -- the oe is one letter. 03:47:01 Actually, you German does that as well, optionally -- o + umlaut can be written with an oe digraph. 03:47:06 TheRealLongshot [~longshot@207.204.232.138] has joined #lisp 03:47:31 I never understood the german SS ligature 03:48:17 The german SS was a bunch of happy folks who spent their time chasing inferior life forms 03:48:26 umm.. not what I meant 03:48:28 slyrus_: the use of the Greek beta symbol? Me either, but I always thought it looked pretty. Isn't its usage fading away? 03:48:44 yeah, who knows. I haven't been there in a long time :) 03:48:49 drdo: he's talking about a typographical convention, not Hitler's ShutzStaffel :P 03:49:04 jfleming: I know :P 03:49:04 slyrus_: me either. Need to fix that. 03:49:11 He's talking about ß 03:49:34 With the recent spelling reform, ß can safely be replaced by "ss". 03:50:02 What's the difference between a single s and "ss" ? 03:50:09 Or, to be contrary, one is no longer compelled to replace "ss" with ß :) 03:50:09 In pronounciation 03:51:33 drdo: Same as far as I can tell. 03:51:55 symbole: That begs the obvious question, why the fuck does it exist then? 03:52:09 Because pronunciation isn't that important. 03:52:13 And why is it being replaced by "ss" instead of "s" ? 03:52:32 drdo: because it's another way of writing "ss", not of writing "s". 03:52:35 Which is why we have through rather than fru. 03:52:55 Morphology is more important. 03:52:58 drdo: Habits die hard. 03:53:08 Zhivago: That's not how you read through 03:53:13 Not like "fru" 03:53:51 drdo: Please rewrite that so that it makes some kind of sense. 03:54:14 You don't pronounce "through" like you do "fru" 03:54:23 How do you know? 03:54:36 People pronounce things all stupid kinds of ways. 03:54:56 Which is my point. 03:55:09 Zhivago: "You" doesn't mean Zhivago 03:55:15 Writing based on pronunciation is a losing strategy. 03:55:31 drdo: Do you speak English? 03:55:37 I do 03:55:48 drdo: Do you know how people everywhere pronounce those words? 03:56:00 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.157.50] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:56:05 Sorry to say i don't 03:56:21 drdo: Then don't use the open form of you like that. 03:56:45 -!- jweiss [~user@cpe-069-134-063-238.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:57:31 Why? 03:57:39 Because you don't know who you're talking about. 03:57:52 I understand that you're saying that people in different places pronounce stuff differently 03:58:25 I get that, but really, take that to the extreme and i can be grunting and claim to be speaking english 03:58:32 No. 03:58:38 drdo: that's remarkably common, sadly. 03:58:47 Heh! 03:59:22 drdo: Which brings us back to why phonetic representations are a bad thing. 03:59:53 But there are wildly divergent ways of pronouncing things, in English - even within England. Get a Geordie, a Glaswegian and a Cockney talking to each other, feed them a couple of drinks, and each of them will have no idea what the other is saying. 04:00:03 Zhivago: What's the alternative? 04:00:12 They'll probably also start beating the shit out of each other just for the fun of it, but that's another matter. 04:00:14 drdo: Morphology. 04:00:45 What's morphology? 04:00:52 drdo: English represents a compromise between morphology and phoneticism in writing -- which is why we have some odd spellings. 04:00:57 drdo: the study of the shape of things. 04:01:05 drdo: Chinese as well, although it's over at the morphological end. 04:01:12 jfleming: I love hearing scottish people speak, even though i don't understand a word 04:01:46 drdo: I do if they're from Edinburgh; their speech is almost as pretty as the town itself. Glasgow goes the other way, at least from the couple of days I spent in each :) 04:02:10 Zhivago: That's exactly the problem with english 04:02:23 drdo: What is? 04:02:37 It has just enough consistency to be annoying 04:03:04 drdo: you mean it teases? Just enough to make you think it works consistently, and then it hits you with something that makes no sense? 04:03:14 indeed 04:03:18 Sorry about that. 04:03:21 English is reasonably regular if you can trace the root language. 04:03:27 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.89.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:04:00 My favourite fucked up word is "recipe" 04:04:04 It just have several morphological systems working side by side -- most of the problems come from phonemic shaping. 04:04:23 ree-kipe 04:04:26 lemoinem [~swoog@165-84-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 04:04:37 What's wrong with "recipe"? 04:05:39 Zhivago: imagine you're a native speaker of a reasonably consistent language, learning English. Now imagine you're trying to figure out how the hell "recipe" should be pronounced. He does have a point. 04:05:48 drdo: if you think that's bad... http://www.ghotiindustries.com/faq#q1 04:06:08 Does "reciprocate" cause you similar problems? 04:06:23 Zhivago: basically, "The mashing of varying source contexts is not a problem, since each context has history"? 04:06:37 Then there's "bass" the fish, and "bass" the musical reference. Or "banal" - who the heck ever gets that one right without hearing somebody else say it? 04:06:55 Zhivago: nop, reciprocate seems fine 04:06:58 jfleming: any latin language speaker, on banal. 04:07:07 If you understand the morphology of recipe, it's pretty clear -- it's re- -cip plus an 'e'. 04:07:37 Yes, but is that a soft "c", or a hard one? 04:07:48 re-kee-pey? 04:07:59 jfleming: It has to be the same as for receive. 04:08:03 and the "re-" prefix is pronounced much differenty in most usages 04:08:10 +l 04:08:14 Zhivago: no it doesn't. This is English we're talking about. 04:08:30 Yes, it does -- if you understand the morphology. 04:08:39 that's really a cop-out 04:08:50 that does not acknowledge the ambiguity 04:08:54 The problem is that you don't, so you're suffering from guessing the phonology. 04:08:55 "genre" is stranger, because it's hard to guess how anglos ad[ao]pted it. 04:09:01 "If you already understand it, then understanding it isn't a problem" 04:09:11 Zhivago: maybe. But is it a reasonable expectation that people study the morphology? I know I didn't, and I'm not educationally impaired by any means. 04:09:23 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 04:09:42 jfleming: Actually, a lot of English teaching books these days do focus on morphology, for this reason. 04:09:58 Ah. Would have been handy if I'd had one as a toddler, then. 04:10:07 jfleming: It's also hard to acquire a decent vocabulary without basic morphology skills. 04:10:44 most elementary English teaching I've seen is focusing more on memorizing words than breaking them into components, yielding kids who cannot piece together the meaning of a word they've not seen before 04:10:50 pkhuong: Yes. Loan words can be a problem, since native speakers often don't know how to prounounce them. 04:11:11 phoodus: That works for the basic vocabulary required to work as a janitor. 04:11:15 nor can pronounce words based on the most common spellings 04:11:57 phoodus: Victims of evil people trying to teach phonetic reading. 04:12:28 phonetic reading works if your language is half-sane 04:12:39 You can tell how long a population has been literate by how phonetic their writing system is. 04:12:40 phonetic + exceptions covers a giant swath of English pronunciation 04:13:25 phoodus: Yes, and it gets you to janitor level. 04:13:34 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:14:18 and what you're bringing up is just categorizing phonetics per source context that the word came from 04:14:30 No. 04:15:00 Consider "illegal" -- what is the morphological structure here? 04:15:31 il-legal? 04:15:42 common prefix + common word 04:15:43 No. in- -legal. 04:16:08 Consider "inflammable" -- what is the morphological structure here? 04:16:36 let me guess, il+flammable? :) 04:16:39 that word doesn't exist anymore: too confusing ;) 04:16:48 No. in- flam -able. 04:16:51 Considering that we also have "flammable" and "nonflammable," pkhuong's point is reinforced. 04:16:59 But in- and in- are different morphemes. 04:17:16 The first is the latin in-, the second is the English in-. 04:17:29 And then there's the in- of "incite." 04:17:30 The first means not, the second means in. 04:17:36 and is that minutae prohibitive to pronouncing those words phonetically? 04:18:25 Yes, it is. 04:18:30 how so? 04:18:32 Because you have allophones. 04:19:10 Zhivago: who arguably often do better at differenciating latinand greek roots than native speakers. 04:19:15 Conclusion: English is a composite (read: "mongrel") language, with lots of differences of opinion about its internal inconsistencies. 04:19:40 Opinions on Clojure's concurrency models? 04:19:47 yet with the desire that written word -> pronunciation, and pronunciation -> written word can be taught plainly 04:20:08 Phoodus: That desire is misguided. 04:20:22 symbole: no opinion here. I haven't yet tried to play with it, so lack enough information. 04:20:43 Phoodus: It produces text that comes with a built-in expiry date -- which is why no long-used literate society does it. 04:20:55 Zhivago: this is also very contextual. For any precise field, a firm grasp of the implications of its vocabulary is necessary 04:21:04 Zhivago: What? (The expiration date) 04:21:14 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@m462436d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:21:31 David [~David@adsl-99-96-181-215.dsl.aus2tx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:21:32 drdo: How do you think people pronounced things a hundred years ago? Two hundred years ago? Three hundred? 04:21:53 drdo: Just have a look at early English texts that were written phonetically and you can see what kind of gibberish you get. 04:21:53 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:21:57 -!- David is now known as Guest90646 04:22:02 Well, in portuguese, the exact same way 04:22:08 huangho [~vitor@201-35-145-126.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 04:22:21 So i have no idea what you're talking about 04:22:31 *jfleming* looks back up 04:22:37 carrot_ is long gone :) 04:22:55 drdo: Why would portugese being the exact same be relevant? 04:23:08 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:25 Zhivago: You are claiming that having a phonetic writing system somehow makes text have an expiration date 04:23:55 drdo: Sure -- phonetic drift ensures that. 04:24:15 liufeng [~user@wnpgmb0909w-ad01-114-68.dynamic.mtsallstream.net] has joined #lisp 04:24:15 drdo: you're in a system that artificially enforces the one way of speaking. I'm not convinced brazilians agree. 04:24:36 symbole: are you getting into Clojure and looking for hints and warnings about the quirks of its concurrency system? 04:25:11 symbole: did you ask that question in #clojure or are you looking for non-biased opinions? 04:25:21 pkhuong: I think of it as a different language 04:25:42 drdo: Are they mutually incomprehensible? 04:25:47 nop 04:25:51 I'm interested in hearing people's experiences with the concurrency models. 04:25:54 ubii: I suspect symbole is trying to discreetly change the subject 04:25:56 Then they're not separate languages. 04:26:05 I have no problem understanding brazillian or even speaking exactly like they do 04:26:13 symbole: I am a fan of Javascript's approach to the issue. 04:26:24 drdo: Then they aren't separate languages. 04:26:28 jfleming: if so, I applaud him, as English was always my worse subject in school 04:26:35 Zhivago: One thread? 04:26:53 symbole: Processes and message passing. 04:26:55 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.132.55] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:27:09 cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.85] has joined #lisp 04:27:09 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.85] has quit [Changing host] 04:27:09 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 04:27:12 Zhivago: Ahmm, what is that supposed to mean? I can understand english and speak english, does that mean english and portuguese aren't separate languages? 04:27:27 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.132.55] has joined #lisp 04:27:28 ubii: my teachers used to use _me_ to proof-read stuff. But I think the flamewar's outlived its use-by date in this channel, so I also applaud. 04:27:29 symbole, I tend to just select a pkg in whatever lang 04:27:48 drdo: Can a portugese speaker that has not studied brazillian portugese understand brazillian portugese? 04:27:57 yes 04:28:04 Then they aren't separate languages. 04:28:14 But then again, so can he understand spanish 04:28:43 brazilian and iberian portuguese are mutually intelligible 04:29:00 Can a brazillian portugese speaker without study understand portugese? 04:29:04 and yes portuguese and spanish but much less so 04:29:28 Zhivago: I'm guessing that they can 04:29:40 they definitely can 04:29:53 drdo: So, in what regard are they separate languages? 04:29:55 ubii: I know what #clojure would say. :-) 04:29:57 it's not like mandarin and cantonese 04:30:22 Zhivago: In the regard that they are not the same 04:30:58 drdo: The portugese that you speak and that your next door neighbour speak are not the same. 04:31:04 drdo: Are they separate languages? 04:31:07 You can even immediately recognise when something is brazillian portuguese vs european portuguese 04:31:11 In writing 04:31:21 symbole: Not only that, but the idea of processes having _addresses_. 04:31:35 symbole, in CL there's also a choice of implementation 04:31:59 symbole: I think that's been a critically undervalued concept in concurrency so far. 04:32:32 Are there implementations that offer STM or message passing? I seem to only see threads being available. 04:32:55 symbole: build message passing or STM on top of them. 04:32:55 does anyone have any experience with weblocks? 04:32:58 symbole: cl-stm is a library supporting stm 04:33:09 No idea how good it is, just know it exists 04:33:15 ubii: Some, a long time ago. 04:33:40 I'm not a fan of stm for the same reason that I'm not a fan of shared memory -- it doesn't scale. 04:33:48 Zhivago: but it's convenient. 04:33:53 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:34:15 Yes, but then so is being nailed to a plank of wood -- it means you don't need to decide where to go. 04:34:19 wait until scaling is an issue, then you can at least be happy. 04:34:52 Scaling in what sense, to mupltiple cores? 04:35:08 symbole: To multiple machines. 04:35:16 symbole: The only kind of scaling that matters any more. 04:36:11 we backed off of Erlang for inference because it does _not_ support shared memory, where multiple processes can analyze the same block of data 04:36:21 -!- huangho [~vitor@201-35-145-126.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 04:36:25 Zhivago: I looked at weblocks a couple of years ago, but didn't have an opportunity to really dig into it and was just curious what folks thought of it compared to other cl web frameworks 04:36:32 in cases like that, shared memory + tons of cores on a single box is a very good thing 04:36:45 and it's even relatively cache-friendly 04:36:46 I suspect the vast majority of applications run on a single server, still. 04:36:58 Phoodus: pretty sure you can mmap on erlang. 04:37:34 pkhuong: I'm talking about Erlang terms 04:38:02 -!- Guest90646 [~David@adsl-99-96-181-215.dsl.aus2tx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:38:07 in theory, Erlang does share large binaries between processes 04:38:23 maybe EtoS or termite would work better for you. 04:38:26 but other than that, they keep their own heap space separated 04:38:36 phoodus: So, how large were these blocks? 04:38:44 that's erlang-the-implementation, not the language 04:38:55 pkhuong: correct 04:39:11 but there's only 1 implementation, and they do not appear to be backing away from that decision 04:39:23 well, EtoS, sort of. 04:39:25 Zhivago: hard to tell; memory footprint of a few hundred megs 04:39:33 just curious what most folks think of using cl for web development and what web framework(s) if any would be worth looking at 04:39:35 Why are these blocks so large? 04:39:46 ubii: What do you want to develop? 04:39:48 what do you mean? Those were the datasets we were inferring over 04:40:18 Zhivago: traditional dynamics database-driven web sites for my clients 04:40:35 Phoodus: You couldn't break them up into smaller pieces? 04:40:41 Zhivago: not feeling the love from Ruby any more 04:40:49 ubii: depends on what you want to do, but I'm rather enjoying it. Principally using hunchentoot, with postmodern for database connectivity. 04:41:13 ubii: Well, weblocks is based on the principle of widgets that fallback to html, iirc. 04:41:15 no 04:41:22 ubii: It will probably suit. 04:41:42 torn between cl and clojure, but leaning toward cl 04:41:48 (well, at least not breaking it up without doing a bunch of messaging to chain knowledge together across boundaries) 04:42:21 ubii: are you familiar wth clojure's speed? last I heard it was quite slow, but that was a while ago. Any clue if it's getting more competitive? 04:42:39 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sbahra] 04:42:59 ubii: I'd say whichever one fits your mind better. Me, I hate Java, and one of clojure's main selling-points is that you get to use all the existing Java libraries. 04:44:11 Phoodus: honestly, I don't know performance wise, how clojure currently stacks up against other languages, but I image that it is faster than Ruby 04:44:18 which I am currently using 04:45:02 jfleming: how many sites do you typically run per server and what type of memory footprint are you typically using? 04:45:55 jfleming: From a practical stand point, companies have a lot of written Java code. As a result, you're not going to convince anybody to switch to CL in your company. 04:46:19 but, but, we have cloak! 04:46:42 ubii: they have bugger-all traffic, but the whole thing's on a Xen VM with 512Mb of RAM. That's complete with Postgres, and I suspect I'll be able to cut it down to a 256Mb instance once I replace apache with nginx. 04:46:46 -!- _pw_ [~user@123.112.69.29] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:47:02 _pw_ [~user@123.112.69.29] has joined #lisp 04:47:32 -!- Harag [~Harag@dsl-243-1-56.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:47:33 4 sites running within the hunchentoot instance, but I'm building them so that it should scale up to quite a few. 04:48:36 symbole: there is that practical consideration. However, I'm not setting out to convert anybody in the company that employs me (it's a Java house); the CL stuff I'm doing is my own. 04:48:47 right now, I have about 75 sites running on one of my production servers, ranging from 40MB to 200MB of RAM per site 04:48:57 If it's a java house, you'd have to be insane not to use clojure. 04:49:01 ubii: nice. 04:49:55 Zhivago: honestly, I'd have to be insane to try moving them out of the Algol family. They're not budging. Besides, I'm a mere sysadmin - the developers really don't care what I think about the choice of implementation language. 04:49:57 one my other production servers is running about 50 sites, ranging from 40MB to 80MB of RAM per site 04:50:05 there's Jython, or that haskell-like (CAL) or JRuby, or ... 04:50:34 jfleming: So, what is this conversation about? 04:51:44 Zhivago: I thought it was about implementing web applications in Lisp, in the context of deciding between Clojure and CL. 04:52:41 my concern about going the clojure route, is that memory utilization might be an issue, considering what Java application server I use 04:53:16 ubii: Do you like java interoperability or java libraries? 04:53:47 CL isn't that slim of a footprint... 04:53:54 jfleming: how mature and robust is hunchentoot and how does it compare to say apache or nginx? 04:54:22 ubii: it doesn't compare; they don't have the same use. 04:54:38 How big are you apps that you're concerned about memory. I'm assuming you're running ona 4 GB machine? 04:54:52 ubii: I haven't managed to make it fall over yet, and I've hit it with some pretty dumb things. But it's more comparable to tomcat than to apache or nginx. 04:55:12 Zhivago: well, having access to all those java libraries is one of the benefits of clojure 04:56:14 symbole: right now, I using well in excess of 4GB of RAM for the 75 ruby sites on one of my servers 04:56:53 ruby is a special case though: it has a moving GC and its concurrency is fork-based. 04:57:20 probably closer to 6GB 04:57:26 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:58:28 ubii: That would be my justification for using clojure, yes. 04:58:38 ubii: If I didn't care about java, then I wouldn't use it. 04:58:44 just trying to get an idea of what type of memory footprint I might expect with say cl/weblocks or clojure/compojure, in comparison to what I am currently using 04:59:06 It will depend on the implementation you use. 04:59:13 isn't 16GB of memory just a couple hundred USD nowadays? 04:59:15 ubii: both are able to exploit threads and shared memory instead of processes. 04:59:20 clisp will probably have a smaller footprint, for example. 04:59:36 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 04:59:44 Personally I'd avoid dealing with shared memory and threads, but ymmv. 05:00:23 Zhivago: honestly though, regardless of if I use cl or clojure, I would prefer to do as much in the language that I pick and not be overly dependent upon external libraries written in other languages 05:00:39 ubii: Do you care about threads a lot? 05:01:24 CL doesn't have a unified threading system, so that may be an issue if you do. 05:01:55 otoh, nobody uses CL. 05:02:40 Phoodus: the cost of hardware is not the concern, just trying to plan things out 05:03:03 Besides which, who is going to be buying hardware in 5 years time? 05:03:21 Zhivago: I am. 05:03:22 ease of libraries is a valid issue. Just pointing out that "java vs cl, which uses less memory?" is not really an answerable question that can be the basis of plans 05:04:11 pkhuong: Why? 05:04:29 enupten [~neptune@117.192.79.92] has joined #lisp 05:04:49 I need consistent comparable numerical results. 05:04:53 why wouldn't you? It's cheaper and far lower latency and interruption possibility than cloud-based solutions (which have their own merits) 05:05:09 phoodus: Not in 5 years time. 05:05:15 and bandwidth is expensive in Canada. 05:05:35 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2D618.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:05:35 Zhivago: sharing of hardware resources can only go so far 05:06:10 phoodus: Additional virtual machines go as far as you can pay for. 05:06:13 so the $ for one slice of a VM on a big box, vs a reasonable workstation at home, the slightly-beyond-short-term costs will tend to favor the latter 05:06:43 and you need the latter in some form to access the former anyway 05:06:51 (be it a handheld or whatever) 05:06:51 Only for small problems -- so you want to be designing to be able to run at home in the small, and scale up in the wild. 05:07:03 not in 5 years time ;) 05:07:10 Zhivago: not overly concerned about threads 05:07:24 don't you think a basic home system will be as impressive then, as today's systems have shot past systems of yesteryear? 05:08:51 I used to be very anti-laptop, but this one's pretty basic and solid, and with 8GB of RAM is a pretty reasonable dev box 05:08:53 most of the servers that I use are either leased dedicated systems or VPS 05:09:37 I'm sure that tablets/handhelds will become powerful dev systems soon enough 05:09:47 phoodus: And you'll say the same about telephones in a couple of years. 05:10:29 right, consumer hardware is doing impressive stuff 05:10:38 you don't just do "small" with your own hardware, even at reasonable costs 05:11:15 we use EC2 for good security isolation and uptime not tied to our office internet connection; not for giant powerful computation 05:11:21 Sure, but the key point is that there's no reason handicap your designs in the small not to run in the large. 05:11:30 obviously 05:12:18 sure there is: I'd rather have something working in the small than something else failing in the large. 05:12:31 I'll go exactly as far as I need to, and not any farther. 05:13:16 and with just a few thousand $ worth of hardware, you can go pretty big yourself, which can be far better economically than the cloud 05:13:41 unfortunately, with most of my clients being the financial arena, most of them are not too keen on cloud computing 05:13:48 that reminds me of naive attempts to parallelize label setting algorithms for things like shortest path computation: sure, you scale better, but you also went from a worst-case polynomial to exponential time. 05:13:50 that, too 05:13:52 Phoodus: I'm used to using hundreds and thousands of machines. 05:13:56 *Phoodus* serves the nuclear industry 05:14:06 phoodus: We might have different ideas of what constitutes big. 05:14:21 right, it does depend on the workload 05:14:47 but in terms of having a distributable core, and writing for scalability, there is a lot of good sense in still purchasing hardware, and I don't see that changing 5 years from now 05:15:04 It will change, because the PC is dead. 05:15:11 heh 05:15:25 how, pray tell, will we access these 5-years-from-now clouds? 05:15:27 You just haven't noticed yet because of all of the capital over-investment in production facilities. 05:15:48 From overgrown telephones. 05:15:52 are you saying that PC production will morph into true thin clients? 05:16:10 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 05:16:12 No. It the PC is done. 05:16:19 that's a pendulum that keeps swinging just as hard one way as to the other over time 05:16:26 Telephones, expanding into tablets will replace it. 05:16:42 The critical difference is that they won't be modular devices any more. 05:16:48 They'll be appliances. 05:16:50 and in 5 years, the telephone will be more powerful than your current workstation 05:17:00 No. That's unlikely. 05:17:22 At a certain point increases in processing power don't benefit a given form-factor. 05:17:30 My television, perhaps. 05:17:42 But that will bottom out with photorealism. 05:18:06 there's 3 different bars there 05:18:29 1 is the PC bar, which is quite high. 2nd is the phone bar, which has a ways to go. 3rd is the TV bar, which is still caught in low-res and gimmicks 05:18:50 there's no reason the phone won't catch up to and surpass current PC levels. At the very least it will catch up 05:19:01 No. By next year new telephones will be running android applications, imho. 05:19:20 and at what sort of clock speed, core count, and memory capacity? 05:19:22 There's no need for a phone to catch up to and surpass current PC levels -- can you think of one? 05:19:32 s/new telephones/new televisions/ 05:19:39 I think it's worth considering that what we currently call a "phone" is rapidly becoming mislabelled. My android device also happens to act as a phone, but I look forward to its successor having USB jacks for keyboard and mouse, and a video out socket for an external monitor. 05:19:45 because people like "TEH MOAR MEGAPIXELS" and "TEH MOAR MEGAHURTZ" 05:19:55 this is consumer hardware we're talking about 05:19:56 jfleming: Which will be killed by android televisions. 05:20:14 Zhivago: maybe. Does that mean I'll have to start watching TV? 05:20:18 jfleming: Currently those developmens are happening because the other appliances haven't caught up yet, but they will have in a couple of years. 05:20:42 jfleming: No. It just means that the consumer PC market will have died. 05:20:52 how long have people been saying "The PC is dead!" now? 10 years? 15? 05:20:55 jfleming: Ordinary people aren't going to buy PCs when their televisions do the job. 05:20:55 Photographers like teh moar megapixels, though, because it's really nice being able to crop a photo down and still have it print/display well. 05:21:17 Zhivago: or their phones, which are also beginning to replace TVs. 05:21:18 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:21:19 Photography is another example -- the low end digital camera is dead due to mobile telephone cameras. 05:21:36 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 05:21:39 jfleming: Won't happen, because that requires buying a separate monitor. 05:21:50 personally, I need my resolution, currently running 2560x1440 and 1920x1200 off a single system, running multiple operating systems, each with multiple virtual windows/workspaces 05:22:01 I like to multitask :) 05:22:01 jfleming: When your monitor runs android natively, there's no point in driving it from your telephone. 05:22:06 *Phoodus* brags about his 22 megapixel desktop 05:22:11 -!- gor[e] [~svr@gw1.masterhost.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:22:23 Zhivago: but you can't take your 32" plasma screen with you, in your pocket. 05:22:32 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 05:22:44 jfleming: Sure, and why would you want to take your telephone out and plug it into your tv? 05:22:45 Why not forsee it going the other way, with phones replacing set-top boxes? 05:22:53 being mobile for me is not an issue, as I work from home 05:22:55 jfleming: So you have a television and you have a phone. 05:22:56 I think I just answered that one :) 05:23:10 -!- symbole [~user@ool-182ff693.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:23:14 For as long as they're still called phones, yes. 05:23:24 jfleming: No. The television will be called a television. 05:23:54 jfleming: And that's why the processing requirements for a telephone will top out reasonably soon. 05:23:58 No argument there. I was referring to the increasingly powerful multifunction devices with SIMs. 05:24:10 Those will increasingly diverge. 05:24:11 I also don't see it being an either/or thing. 05:24:34 Zhivago: you don't think people will want to do video editing on their handhelds, given that's where they record the video? 05:24:35 You'll end up with televisions, tablets and telephones with shared back-end storage. 05:24:49 And DLNA connecting them. 05:24:50 phoodus: Sure they will, but given the form factor ... 05:25:02 phoodus: It doesn't require much processor power to do so. 05:25:09 buh? 05:25:16 phoodus: I can already do video editing on my telephone. 05:25:19 -!- TheRealLongshot [~longshot@207.204.232.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:25:35 if I wasn't a hermit and didn't work from home, then I would probably break down and actually buy a real smart phone, as my old Samsung Instinct sucks major ass 05:25:53 phoodus: All you need for that is to be able to play video at the resolution of the display. 05:26:08 phoodus: If that's 800x400 or whatever, it isn't particularly demanding. 05:26:12 Zhivago: what sort of editing, just snipping timelines, or adding effects, adjusting levels, etc etc? 05:26:31 phoodus: Um, you'd have to be stupid to add effects or adjust levels that you can't see properly. 05:26:38 Colour-correction, scene transitions... 05:26:45 what do you think phone displays will be like in 5 years? 05:26:46 phoodus: So again the requirements are constrained by the form factor. 05:27:04 and handhelds already record in 1080p 05:27:05 phoodus: Pretty much like mine is now. 05:27:32 phoodus: Because there's no point in making them bigger when you can just get a bloody tablet that runs the same software on a larger screen for a low price.. 05:27:36 Zhivago: what makes you think people won't want to record on their handhelds, edit on the spot or on the way home, then watch it on the big-screen TV in the living room? 05:27:58 jfleming: Nothing, but again, they'd be stupid to edit on the basis of what they can't see ... 05:28:02 so you'd prefer a workflow where you first wait to transfer giant files from your phone computer to your TV computer before editing, rather than having your phone computer using the TV as a display 05:28:15 I think you two have severe reading comprehension disorders. 05:29:08 Itty bitty screens have different limitations for actually doing stuff than big screens, and this is independent of processing power. 05:29:20 I think you're making wild overestimations in very narrow areas, while underestimating the rest 05:29:27 Zhivago: you may not have noticed, but consumers tend to be pretty bloody stupid, en masse. Besides, if they just want to play back the footage of Timmy's football game, or maybe the coach wants to review the play-by-play, editing finesse means bugger-all - but the larger display makes it easier to see exactly who fumbled what pass. 05:29:35 Which means that once you hit the limitation of an itty bitty screen, there's not much point in getting a better processor. 05:29:52 jfleming: So, what's the problem? 05:30:08 jfleming: How much processing power do you think it takes to play a video on an itty bitty screen? 05:31:04 -!- Triplefault [~Mouse@adsl-72-145-215-164.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:31:07 the power is more dependent on the recorded resolution than the display resolutino 05:31:11 Zhivago: bugger-all. But you're talking about constraining the resolution of the footage taken on said itty-bitty device, on the apparent assumption that it will only ever be viewed on that itty-bitty screen, and not on a larger one. 05:31:24 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 05:31:28 I'm pointing out that this isn't a reasonable assumption. 05:31:41 You're talking about editing ... which means playing, watching, and making annotations ... 05:32:01 no, it means cutting & pasting video sections, subtitling, annotating and _re-rendering_ 05:32:15 The basic point is that form factor determines use which determines processing load. 05:32:34 as well as all the automated corrective post-processing stuff which can get very heavyweight, and which consumers like because it's automatic 05:32:35 There's nothing to push processing load up once you max out the other two. 05:32:36 Zhivago: form factor of which device? Capture or playback? 05:32:47 jfleming: Whatever you're using at the time. 05:33:01 so if handhelds record 4k video, it still won't take much processing power. Gotcha 05:33:11 just because they have a small display 05:33:34 phoodus: And if they record at 100 times that, it still won't take much processing power. 05:34:00 and, pray tell, what non-processing entity will encode those many bytes of CCD data into a video file? 05:34:47 Zhivago: editing, and particularly re-rendering, looks pretty intensive to me. Sure, my laptop can handle it, but I'd rather not ask it to do anything else at the same time. 05:34:51 The encoding cost isn't linear, and it's constrained by your television resolution or whatever. 05:34:57 and then how many hours of "not much processing power" to do a simple cut-and-paste trimming? 05:35:09 Which means that you get to photorealistic fairly quickly. 05:35:38 Just look at how digital camera resolutions are having trouble pushing into high megapixels. 05:35:57 Beyond a certain point, people don't care, because it doesn't make any difference to them. 05:36:16 and look how long it takes those cameras to capture & write to the card, just for single images 05:36:23 I think this is the point that you're having trouble grasping. 05:36:24 Zhivago: the main constraint there is cost. Larger sensors cost more to make, which pushes up the sale price - hence 1.6x crop-factor DSLRs. 05:36:38 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 05:37:00 jfleming: No. The main constraint there is that only very strange people care. 05:37:03 You can pack more pixels in, at the cost of increasing noise. 05:37:09 Zhivago: the point you're missing is that editing video is something people want to do once they have recording capability, and that does take significant CPU and bandwidth 05:37:18 Zhivago: I'll take the "very strange" label, and so will thousands of other photographers. 05:37:34 phoodus: Not significantly more than that required to play the video. 05:37:46 justify yourself 05:37:57 Zhivago: just to check, have you done much video editing? Or photo editing, come to that? 05:38:11 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:38:15 Think about what video editing involves on a telephone handset. 05:38:15 to decode terabytes of pixel data, perform large numerical processing on it, and reencoding it 05:38:30 it's the same as on a PC 05:38:34 No, it isn't. 05:38:35 it's the same video data 05:38:41 Hun` [~hun@95-90-10-28-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 05:38:45 1920x1080, 30/60 whatever FPS, 24-bit 05:38:49 You just can't grasp the implications of a form factor. 05:39:00 Zhivago: are you still assuming that the capture and processing are constrained by the screen of the device? 05:39:17 I'm assuming that what people can use a device for is constrained by its form factor, yes. 05:39:17 it doesn't matter that the phone can't display, it, you still need to trim it, adjust levels, and do all sorts of things that are perfectly viewable with a downsampled _view_ of the data 05:39:45 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C6C24.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:39:49 you're assuming that people are fine with recording 240p video on their phone and will never want to show it on their bigscreen 05:39:57 Phoodus: If you can play it, then you can rewrite it into a low resolution form for editing. 05:40:05 240p? 05:40:09 phoodus: So, what's the problem? 05:40:12 why would you want to lose all your resolution for editing? 05:40:14 Zhivago: then why the hell does my (slightly obsolete) 40D capture far more data than its built-in LCD can hope to display, and why do I currently offload the serious processing to my workstation at home? 05:40:22 nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has joined #lisp 05:40:22 -!- nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has quit [Changing host] 05:40:22 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 05:40:34 "I recorded it in 1080p, but since I had to do some basic editing, I had to downsample it. Watch my low-res clip" 05:41:09 jfleming: Because your camera is not used to display images - it is used to capture them for display elsewhere ... 05:41:15 heck, even most PC video editing software views the video downsampled as you work with it 05:41:18 If I can connect my phone to my monitor and tablet to do the editing, that'd be bloody awesome. Of course, that'll require that it has at least as much power as my current workstation, which has nothing to do with the form factor of my phone, and everything to do with the task at hand. 05:41:27 phoodus: Are you mentally retarded? 05:41:29 that doesn't mean it throws the high-res data away 05:41:43 Zhivago: you are a very weak, offensive debater 05:41:44 phoodus: You can apply the editing instructions from the low resolution form upon the high resolution form. 05:41:57 hahah 05:42:03 Zhivago: that's my point. Phoodus and I are talking about editing video on the phone _for display elsewhere_. 05:42:05 and who's going to process those? 05:42:09 not the phone, by your definition 05:42:19 and these are things that take PCs hours depending on the circumstances 05:42:44 Sure, you'd process those on a machine suitable for that task. 05:42:52 people _will want_ to do those things quickly and immediately, and have the results available 05:42:53 am I going to have to separate you 3? :) 05:42:59 Zhivago: why not make the phone suitable for that task? 05:43:01 and cell phones _will easily_ have the power to do so in years 05:43:06 ubii: possibly :) 05:43:17 going right back to my intiial claim that a handheld phone-like will be more powerful than your current workstation in a few years 05:43:23 there is a market for it 05:43:29 and it will continue to drive more power into the handheld 05:43:32 phoodus: Except that the power of cell phones is limited by battery endurance. 05:43:35 video being one of those major drivers 05:43:51 and there is disruptive technology focused directly on that issue 05:44:07 phoodus: Which means that it's a stupid approach to try to shove everything into one box. 05:44:14 that does not follow 05:44:18 phoodus: You need to break out of the PC mind-set. 05:44:44 Zhivago: you may need to take a closer look at what's happening with digital video, both still and moving. 05:44:52 phones, handhelds, and tablets continue getting more powerful. At what point do the Zhivago police step in and say "Stop innovating! These are powerful enough!" 05:45:06 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:45:15 I don't have to say anything -- people will simply stop paying more money for them. 05:45:23 they're also getting cheaper 05:45:41 and as they get cheaper, there's a lot of impulse & luxury purchase to step up a few notches to get the premium models 05:45:49 And at a certain point people will stop paying more for more powerful models. 05:46:01 and by that, you prove you're not in marketing :) 05:46:29 Marketing people need to believe their own lies. 05:46:32 If humanity was like you envisioned it, you'd be right. Unfortunately, I do not believe that's the case 05:46:52 Zhivago: so development is partly driven by targetting the current market sweet-spot in pricing. The PC market's been like that for ages. Used to be, anyway. 05:47:16 and the laptop market is now, even if the PC market isn't as mainstream anymore 05:47:17 DSLRs are like that now, and the price-points are moving down. 05:47:18 jfleming: Except that that sweet-spot has collapsed. 05:47:32 did anyone see this on /. - http://mobile.slashdot.org/story/11/05/04/2036208/Startup-Wants-To-Put-64-Cores-In-Your-Smartphone 05:47:39 ubii: yup. 05:47:48 s/PC/laptop/ for any 20 year old argument for today, and you still have the same situation 05:47:50 Think about the wristwatch. 05:48:35 It's a simpler example -- look at where its processing power peaked. 05:48:50 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:49:07 yesterday's wristwatch == today's pocketwatch (ie phone) 05:49:22 No. They still sell wrist watches. 05:49:33 is it a Casio calculator watch, cuz those are cool? :) 05:49:44 People don't use them so much because telephones also do that job adequately. 05:49:48 Not as cool as a Patek Philippe, though :) 05:49:48 nah, the detachable transforming robot ones were coolest :) 05:49:54 But their processing power peaked far earlier than that. 05:50:07 Phoodus: ah, I forgot about those, they were sweet 05:50:43 Zhivago: if there was still a market for powerful wristwatches, they'd still be cranking out the features 05:51:01 Phoodus: They weren't. 05:51:18 look at the PC. Multi -> many-core, GPGPU, etc. When we hit barriers, the market pushes in different areas 05:51:19 phoodus: Once you got to stopwatch and a couple of alarms, people stopped caring. 05:51:44 You need to understand what drives it forward -- which is how people use things. 05:51:53 yet altimeters, thermometers, calendars, etc etc kept getting shoved into watches 05:52:09 And no-one cared. 05:52:19 So only a few marginal watches used them. 05:52:23 they specialized for markets in that 05:52:29 Yes. Crazy people. 05:52:41 -!- Hun` [~hun@95-90-10-28-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:52:48 But those people are irrelevant. 05:52:50 and everybody in this channel counts as "crazy people" with regards to the general market, too 05:52:55 as well as irrelevant 05:52:58 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.132.55] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:53:02 Certainly. 05:53:16 Which is why your arguments are largely irrelevant. 05:53:25 but, we can ride on the success of consumer equipment cranking onward, as power users 05:53:29 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.132.55] has joined #lisp 05:53:40 Except that that wave isn't headed in that direction. 05:53:56 It's going to break up across a bunch of form factors, and the processing power will follow that. 05:54:01 and there are many untapped potentials which require putting more and more computing power (which will be transparent to the end-user, it'll just "do stuff" for them) 05:54:20 each form factor will bloat up 05:54:21 Except that most of that will be off-loaded into other machines. 05:54:21 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:54:30 and become all-encompassing and unweildy 05:54:38 then specialized systems will break out 05:54:40 So the form factor won't bloat up, because that form factor is what's most important to people. 05:54:43 and then gain mor and more features 05:54:47 and the pendulum continues 05:55:04 No. The wrist-watch tells a different story. 05:55:04 each form factor's _capabilities_ will blow up, I meant 05:55:05 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-hjkeqtkwvhfswpuu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:55:18 then why dont' phones just make phone calls? 05:55:29 obviously this is different from the timepiece analogy 05:55:29 Because of the form factor. 05:55:31 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 05:55:47 which is unrelatable to your wristwatch examples then 05:55:50 With a device of that size, there are certain ways that you can usefully interact with the device. 05:55:55 No. It's exactly the same. 05:56:14 The form factor of a device of that size attached to one arm determines how you can usefully use it. 05:56:14 we know what people do with PCs 05:56:28 webpages, games, take up more and more CPU and graphical power as we progress 05:56:36 Only until photorealism. 05:56:47 in the mobile space, webpages, games, etc will take up more and more CPU and graphical power as we progress 05:57:20 Flash is a pig. Many laptops will not play absolutely non-photorealistic Flash games at full frame rate 05:57:25 it has nothing to do with photorealism 05:57:43 but dealing with resolution independence and flashy effects 05:58:46 we're definitely not hitting walls where basic consumer hardware (cheap/medium laptops & smartphones) are plenty fast to do the common tasks that joe average casual gamer asks of the machines 05:59:04 -!- tippenein [~chatzilla@c-24-245-21-197.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.17/20110422045944]] 06:02:04 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c72ce0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 06:04:24 ubii: what was the question, again? :) 06:05:45 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C6C24.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:06:05 phoodus: Resolution is constrained by form factor as well -- things aren't resolution independent. 06:06:14 phoodus: In any case, history will prove you wrong. :) 06:06:23 history has already proven me right ;) 06:06:26 (just by repeating itself) 06:06:39 and resolution independence comes from different devices having different resolutions 06:06:47 and running fullscreen games on them 06:07:14 And you'd have to be stupid to want to run the same game on your wristwatch as on your television. 06:07:32 Why? 06:07:37 you'd be surprised ad how similar the field of view is 06:07:42 Form factor, for one ... 06:07:58 And methods of interaction for another. 06:08:11 input is a legitimate concern about portables 06:08:14 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.206.51] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 06:08:49 but people seem to enjoy playing Angry Birds on any device they can get their hands on 06:09:31 almost all of the intense image processing my smart phone does is offloaded onto amazon ec2. 06:09:37 -!- Vejeta [~user@unaffiliated/vejeta] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:09:58 you mean that onlive gaming, or something else? 06:11:06 i have several camera based apps, like a qr code reader, and an image effects app 06:11:18 none of it is done using the phone processor 06:11:21 oconnore: that's primarily because the phone itself doesn't (yet) have enough processing power, yes? 06:11:45 if your phone could do it locally, and have the same battery lifespan as it does now, would you like that? 06:12:39 honestly i don't care as long as my qr codes get read and i can convert an image into sepia. 06:12:52 And we have a winner. :) 06:12:55 sre 06:13:09 Phoodus: can anyone answer this question with a "no"? 06:13:12 now, the issue comes in with cost 06:13:13 hey everybody, do you guys use lisp? 06:13:16 People don't care as long as it works, and as the cloud matures you'll find that happening more and more. 06:13:27 slyrus: I use lisp to generate my chat arguments 06:13:33 heh 06:13:39 jfleming: actually the phone probably has enough power to do some of that processing. i suspect it is also an issue of "easier to code this in a python instance on my server." 06:13:41 slyrus_ :) 06:13:54 it comes down to paying for a service, vs having a device that can do it on its own 06:13:59 oconnore: good call. 06:14:00 i don't have to pay 06:14:28 oconnore: right, but if usage of such a thing skyrockets, don't you think there will become costs associated with it? 06:14:45 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 06:15:06 I forsee a tipping-point there, where there's (just) enough power to process video locally, and it's a better trade-off to do it there than move Gbs of data off to the cloud and back to the phone. 06:15:12 i can't figure out how to compile my code to an executable. oh, and I don't want to learn emacs. am I in the right channel? 06:15:15 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.136.254] has joined #lisp 06:15:40 i don't think so, it's easy to spawn server instances, and wireless networks will only get better/cheaper 06:15:43 slyrus_: no, you're in exactly the right place. I don't like emacs, either. 06:15:58 *slyrus_* trollfails 06:16:04 I'm in the same emacs boat 06:16:11 Phoodus: RSI? 06:16:19 "Great OS, but the editor sucks, etc etc" 06:16:43 jfleming: repetitive strain injury? 06:16:56 minion: RSI 06:17:06 oh, back in my day we had bots, dammit! 06:17:22 Phoodus: yup. My forearms screamed every time I tried to use it, so I'm still happily using Vim + VIlisp. 06:17:50 *slyrus_* reminisces about the good ol' cheneygc/ppc days 06:18:03 ah, no I don't have an issue with that 06:18:08 slyrus_: is CL a good choice for writing IRC bots? 06:18:26 Or should I use Dylan? 06:18:28 is there something it's not good for writing? 06:18:32 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.139.98.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:18:45 have your IRC bot run a repl on the channel. What's the worst that could happen? :) 06:19:17 lots of irrelevant blather 06:19:21 jfleming: i think it will only be useful to do local processing when you need incredibly low latency. otherwise, why spin up my battery powered cpu? 06:19:24 oh, wait, no that wouldn't be any different 06:19:43 What is this emacs bashing? You vile vi infidels meet up at such ungodly hours to do this? 06:19:48 like, angry birds cannot be offloaded... 06:20:00 debate future of handheld computing power vs debate CLHS definitions, what's the difference? 06:20:23 slyrus_: "It used to be said that, if a million monkeys tapped at a million typewriters, eventually one would churn out the works of Shakespeare. Thanks to the internet, we now know this to be false." 06:20:33 drdo: I use emacs, but just because SLIME is the best Lisp interaction environment I've come across so far 06:20:42 not because I'm a fan of emacs 06:20:51 lol 06:20:53 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:21:06 oconnore: good point. The tipping-point will vary by app, CPU and available bandwidth. 06:21:09 jfleming: I like the quote "systems biology: if you give a million monkeys matlab..." 06:21:23 drdo: what ungodly hours? It's 16:20, here :P 06:21:23 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 06:21:30 it's 7:20 here 06:21:32 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 06:21:35 And i still haven't slept :S 06:21:51 drdo: so you'll be making about as much sense as the rest of us, then. 06:21:52 drdo: no reason to succumb to it now! 06:22:22 Phoodus: Not feeling sleepy actually 06:22:30 I've been sleeping too much i think 06:22:47 So much that i feel unmotivated the whole day 06:23:16 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 06:23:28 what you need is a good internet argument to make you feel reinvigorated ;) 06:23:48 What i need is them to stop being assholes and make ritalin available over the counter 06:24:00 drdo: you know it's basically speed, right? 06:24:06 o_O 06:24:13 jfleming: I've taken it several times 06:24:32 I have some leftover but i don't want to use it right now since i don't have a regular supply atm 06:25:03 well, i guess so is coffee/redbull 06:25:26 -!- splittist2 [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:25:29 but those both probably taste better than ritalin 06:25:31 physical activity is the best way to gain energy 06:25:32 coffee is nowhere near as nice 06:25:55 Phoodus: It's not about the energy, it's about the intese focus 06:26:02 oconnore: Kinda, but caffeine doesn't enhance your focus as well. From what I've read, anyway; haven't tried either speed or ritalin myself. 06:26:10 drdo: ah, that's tougher to nail down 06:26:22 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 06:26:36 You will absolutely obssess over whatever it is you are doing for 2-3 hours 06:27:01 Also, it's dirt cheap 06:27:08 you know what helps focus a lot? 06:27:13 don't have an IRC window open :) 06:27:31 What helps focus for me is having interesting shit to do 06:27:38 Unfortunately, that's not always possible 06:27:51 *Phoodus* has lots of interesting things to do he's taking a break from 06:28:17 but I do need to get back into it. I hate leaving problems half-solved 06:28:17 *jfleming* has lots of work he should really be attending to 06:28:23 even if the remainder is the toughest part 06:28:39 -!- enupten [~neptune@117.192.79.92] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:29:16 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 06:29:16 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 06:29:16 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:30:20 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:31:21 enupten [~neptune@117.192.79.92] has joined #lisp 06:31:25 good morning 06:31:42 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:32:02 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 06:32:05 morning mvilleneuve 06:32:07 good almost-midnight 06:33:28 good morning 06:38:14 Good afternoon 06:38:28 splittist2 [~splittist@57-191.62-81.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 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[~arenz@nat/ibm/x-qugebfnhgtvadgdi] has joined #lisp 07:45:17 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has joined #lisp 07:47:21 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:7a2b:cbff:fed0:c11c] has joined #lisp 07:47:21 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:7a2b:cbff:fed0:c11c] has quit [Changing host] 07:47:21 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 07:47:22 aerique [310225@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:47:29 -!- liufeng [~user@wnpgmb0909w-ad01-114-68.dynamic.mtsallstream.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:48:10 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-77-176.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:48:29 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:51:11 cromartie-x182 [~cromartie@24.229.243.68.res-cmts.sm.ptd.net] has joined #lisp 07:51:29 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-104-177.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:51:35 -!- cromartie-x182 [~cromartie@24.229.243.68.res-cmts.sm.ptd.net] has left #lisp 07:52:22 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:53:10 cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has joined #lisp 07:53:10 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has quit [Changing host] 07:53:10 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 08:04:39 -!- Harag [~Harag@dsl-243-1-56.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Quit: Eish] 08:04:53 Guthur [c743cb8c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.140] has joined #lisp 08:05:17 where is the SBCL experimental windows repo 08:07:50 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 08:08:57 Guthur: here? https://github.com/akovalenko/sbcl-win32-threads/wiki 08:09:21 splittist2: cheers 08:09:22 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:09:53 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 08:10:21 Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@fw.math.ku.dk] has joined #lisp 08:15:01 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 08:15:08 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:15:46 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:18:03 cfy` [~cfy@218.75.27.163] has joined #lisp 08:18:11 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:18:29 -!- cfy` is now known as Guest8877 08:27:25 with the experimental SBCL and quicklisp I get and error trying to load this weird looking file for iolib "iolib>.syscalls" 08:27:39 and/an 08:28:19 Guthur: that's a typo 08:28:27 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has joined #lisp 08:28:45 fe[nl]ix: where does one resolve it 08:29:26 Spion [~spion@79.125.200.150] has joined #lisp 08:29:28 -!- Spion [~spion@79.125.200.150] has quit [Changing host] 08:29:28 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 08:30:50 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:33:02 Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 08:33:35 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:33:42 oh, found it 08:33:50 they all seem to have this type 08:33:53 typo 08:34:01 the iolib files 08:34:30 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 08:35:54 ok resolved, cheers fe[nl]ix 08:36:07 was'n't easy to find without grep though 08:37:09 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7570a3.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:38:57 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:41:58 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 08:45:05 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:45:46 I always forget about this one; instead of struct foo f; fn(&f), you do (with-foreign-object (f (:pointer foo)) (fn f)) in cffi? But if so what's going on underneath - how is the necessary space being allocated? 08:46:35 -!- Areil [~user@113.172.38.77] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:46:52 -!- Liera [~Liera@113.172.38.77] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:48:11 silenius [~silenus@p54947250.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:48:45 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:49:31 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:50:21 Liera [~Liera@113.172.38.77] has joined #lisp 08:52:42 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7570a3.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:53:02 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:7a2b:cbff:fed0:c11c] has joined #lisp 08:53:02 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:7a2b:cbff:fed0:c11c] has quit [Changing host] 08:53:02 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 08:53:12 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.136.254] has joined #lisp 08:53:18 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 08:53:38 kkopiec [~kkopiec@host109-153-197-129.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 08:55:23 Areil [~user@113.172.38.77] has joined #lisp 08:56:36 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 08:58:59 arbscht [~arbscht@60-234-133-173.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 09:00:34 -!- longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:02:46 Joreji_ [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 09:04:26 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 09:04:44 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:05:11 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:08:24 Patzy [~something@bro29-1-82-245-180-56.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:09:41 tcr: Presumably somewhere mysterious that goes away when you leave with-foreign-object. 09:13:57 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:15:13 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:15:13 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 09:15:13 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:15:34 ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 09:19:06 -!- Guest8877 is now known as cfy 09:19:08 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.27.163] has quit [Changing host] 09:19:08 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 09:23:10 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.186.56] has joined #lisp 09:23:18 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-190-145.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:26:02 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:27:06 stis [~stis@host-90-235-224-114.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 09:29:04 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:35:00 does anyone know if IBM or intel used a lisp for defining quality assurance tests 09:35:01 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.132.55] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:35:19 I have a vague memory of reading something somewhere 09:35:26 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:35:37 I only know of someone using regexes for circuit tests 09:35:43 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.132.55] has joined #lisp 09:36:00 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-142-146.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 09:36:20 i could have dreamt it, hehe 09:39:01 Guthur: i take it it isn't the AMD/FPU ACL2 story you are thinking about? 09:39:17 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 09:39:43 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:39:50 hypno: it may be 09:40:19 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.186.56] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:40:49 hypno: do happen to have a link 09:41:31 *do you 09:42:09 Guthur: http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/moore/acl2/v4-2/INTERESTING-APPLICATIONS.html ? 09:42:27 for some reason load isn't working... i try and load the file in sbcl and all it does it do the quicklisp instructions at the beginning 09:43:35 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-190-145.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 09:44:05 hypno: cheers 09:44:27 Landr: why do you think LOAD is not working? 09:45:02 Xach: did you see my issue earlier with iolib 09:45:03 i have no idea... i do two ql's, and then a make-package... and then it just stops :\ 09:45:13 Guthur: no. 09:45:17 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-190-145.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:45:19 with quicklisp 09:45:54 Guthur: can you reproduce it? 09:45:56 there is a typo in the systems file 09:46:19 basho__ [~basho__@dslb-092-076-093-127.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:46:41 for all iolib text files with for example: dists/quicklisp/software/iolib-0.7.3/src/iolib>.asd 09:46:47 the > being the issue 09:47:14 Guthur: I can't reproduce it. 09:47:49 I wonder how my files got corrupt 09:47:58 fe[nl]ix: had you seen this before 09:48:25 *Landr* sighs 09:48:36 this really isn't working out the way i had planned it :/ 09:49:00 the code works fine when I call it in the terminal... but when I try it via ht-simple-ajax, it crashes 09:49:07 stalls, rather 09:49:14 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:50:13 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 09:54:09 -!- lundis [~lundis@dyn56-304.yok.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:54:21 lundis [~lundis@dyn56-304.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 09:54:24 am0c [~am0c@210.94.187.49] has joined #lisp 09:54:47 How to "mv" a file? Use CL-FAD to copy then erase? 09:55:35 easyE: rename-file 09:55:46 Xach: thanks. 09:55:57 it's standard. on unix CLs, might have an issue with cross-devices moves. 09:56:15 it also doesn't support directories on all CLs. 09:56:25 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.136.254] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 09:56:42 daniel___ [~daniel@p5082B50E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:56:43 Well, I will fix if broken (on ABCL). THanks for the heads-up. 09:59:18 -!- daniel__ [~daniel@p508292E3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:01:19 algorist [~quassel@host148-236-dynamic.6-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 10:02:05 -!- Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@fw.math.ku.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:02:05 a-ha 10:02:07 -!- Posterdati [~tapioca@host253-35-dynamic.59-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:02:08 replied with: (SIMPLE-BASE-STRING 3) 10:02:08 and it should be: (SIMPLE-ARRAY CHARACTER (6)) 10:02:11 -!- algorist_ [~quassel@host253-35-dynamic.59-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:02:17 EM03 [~dfsdfdsf@unaffiliated/em03] has joined #lisp 10:02:18 well, that's getting somewhere 10:02:37 lanthan [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:02:40 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.186.56] has joined #lisp 10:03:29 why does (define (x) 10 (printf "dsfsdf") return printf but if i take out that function 10 is returned ....why aren't both returned when they are both there? 10:03:54 -!- pkhuong [~pkhuong@gravelga.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:03:57 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.186.56] has quit [Client Quit] 10:04:05 because only the last form is evaluated and returned 10:04:10 -!- lanthan [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 10:04:10 if you want both you need to use VALUES 10:05:25 lanthan [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:05:35 but if i put the 10 last as well with the printf it will return both Landr 10:05:57 but with the 10 before it just skips it 10:06:33 are you sure it returns it, or is it simply standard output of your function? 10:06:57 > (define (y) (printf "dsfsdfdsfsdf") 10) 10:06:58 > y 10:06:58 # 10:06:58 > (y) 10:06:59 dsfsdfdsfsdf10 10:07:25 if I do 10 then (printf) though it will not put the 10 in the output 10:07:27 you are confusing what is printed to the standard output with a return value. 10:07:28 only after 10:07:31 yes, now try (define (y) (format t "this is to standard output: blahblah~%") 10) 10:07:41 stis_ [~stis@host-90-235-30-20.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 10:07:45 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 10:07:56 -!- stis [~stis@host-90-235-224-114.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:08:38 I see what your saying now 10:08:56 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.12.183] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:09:04 (define (x) 10 (printf "sdfsdfdsf")) 10:09:04 > x 10:09:04 # 10:09:05 > (x) 10:09:05 sdfsdfdsf 10:09:08 so that is normal behavior? 10:09:33 the 10 is not returned ...and printf does not return anything it just prints something out? 10:09:36 EM03: sounds like you want #scheme. 10:09:53 yea i know heheh I'm learning both sorta at the same time 10:09:54 this channel is about Common Lisp. 10:10:05 and they overlap in so many areas 10:10:15 they overlap a lot less than you might imagine. 10:10:44 you would be best considering them to be two completely different languages. 10:10:49 That caught me out a few months back when I started learning common lisp. 10:11:18 well I'm usually pretty good about picking up langauges but this is the most different thing I have used 10:11:24 more so than smalltalk 10:11:58 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-142-146.vologda.ru] has quit [Quit:    .    ...] 10:12:17 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-142-146.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 10:12:20 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.132.55] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:12:33 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 10:12:43 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.132.55] has joined #lisp 10:13:06 EM03: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Lisp#The_function_namespace 10:13:07 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.132.55] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:13:19 isn't the issue I have having from a methodology standpoint the same here? 10:13:29 em03: They do overlap a lot, but it's best to learn one at a time. 10:13:47 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.132.55] has joined #lisp 10:14:17 Posterdati [~tapioca@host148-236-dynamic.6-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 10:14:29 EM03: not particularly 10:14:53 When x is expected to be a function, it'll look it up in the function namespace, else ... 10:14:57 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-142-146.vologda.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 10:15:59 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-142-146.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 10:16:24 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 10:16:54 I'm guessing the reason the 10 is returned last because it is an actual return value ....where with it first and the printf next it prints things out to the terminal but it effectively does not have a return "value" 10:17:51 EM03: in Common Lisp, print also returns a value 10:17:59 defun's return the value of the last form. 10:18:03 EM03: try (print 10) 10:18:04 That is, in your case, the print. 10:18:40 so the value was also the text I was printing? hmm 10:18:51 em: The 10 isn't returned. 10:18:53 That's what print returns. 10:19:03 The last evaluation in a block is returned. 10:19:03 in some languages print never returns a value or just returns 0 and just prints to the terminal 10:19:16 But this is functional programming :D 10:20:08 Fortunately we have documentation that you can read that will tell you what print does ... 10:20:13 -!- stis_ [~stis@host-90-235-30-20.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:20:24 *Landr* considers using a hammer instead 10:20:30 stis_ [~stis@host-90-235-196-15.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 10:20:37 for some reason, when I call the function, everything is smooth 10:20:48 when ht-simple-ajax calls it, it doesn't work. even though the input is the EXACT same thing. 10:21:21 when I call it: I got (SIMPLE-ARRAY CHARACTER (3)) while I expected (SIMPLE-ARRAY CHARACTER (3)) replied with (SIMPLE-ARRAY CHARACTER (6)) while it needs to be (SIMPLE-ARRAY CHARACTER (6)) 10:21:51 when htsa calls it: I got (SIMPLE-ARRAY CHARACTER (3)) while I expected (SIMPLE-ARRAY CHARACTER (3)) replied with (SIMPLE-BASE-STRING 3) while it needs to be (SIMPLE-ARRAY CHARACTER (6)) 10:21:59 same input, different output 10:22:01 why.jpg :( 10:22:06 in this case I was trying it in a scheme interpreter and the doc says (printf form v ...)  void? ....so I'm guessing it returns void or what not 10:22:38 EM03: are you talking about your Common Lisp experiences in #scheme? 10:22:41 hehe 10:22:45 sorry 10:22:48 It's backwards day, duh. 10:22:55 I was doing it in lisp as well and getting the same result though 10:22:56 hehe 10:23:34 btw I think you had that backwards :) 10:23:55 -!- salva [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: salva] 10:23:58 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 10:24:26 So it's backwards backwards day? 10:24:30 Forwards day? 10:25:44 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-142-146.vologda.ru] has quit [Quit:    .    ...] 10:25:56 ohhh, wait 10:25:59 literals, i'll bet 10:26:24 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-142-146.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 10:26:36 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 10:26:38 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.132.55] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:27:11 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.132.55] has joined #lisp 10:27:12 no, wait, I do intern, so that can't be it 10:28:19 Landr: this monologue has a chance of being interesting if we could see the code. Otherwise, not so much. 10:28:54 :/ the problem is that it's so much code i don't know where to start 10:29:22 #lisp is not a teddy bear (t-shirt available soon (: ) 10:29:37 Demosthenes [~demo@m452436d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 10:30:26 rasterba_ [~rasterbar@99-113-184-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:31:24 hmm, ok, here 10:31:25 http://paste.lisp.org/display/121800 10:33:49 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:35:34 Landr: and you're wondering why the type of a literal string (read by the reader) is different from a string read by ht? 10:36:23 as far as I can tell, ht works with "(apply fn args)" 10:36:39 isn't that the same then? I mean, it's a string either way, and I intern it :< 10:36:59 -!- stis_ [~stis@host-90-235-196-15.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:37:11 stis_ [~stis@host-90-232-247-132.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 10:37:23 ohhhh 10:37:26 it's a list! 10:38:55 if you build it, they will cons 10:39:27 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:39:54 -!- stis_ [~stis@host-90-232-247-132.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:41:19 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.132.55] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:42:25 Landr: so the simple-base-string 3 is "NIL" ? 10:42:35 i'm guessing so 10:43:25 -!- kkopiec [~kkopiec@host109-153-197-129.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:43:40 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 10:45:16 -!- tsuru [~charlie@adsl-74-179-198-44.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:45:34 tsuru [~charlie@adsl-74-179-198-44.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 10:46:15 what is the LOCK for in (bt:condition-wait ...) 10:48:12 iirc, when you do a wait, you need to unlock the lock which is guarding your condition variable 10:48:20 which is what that does for you 10:48:29 nope, that ain't it... the input is the exact same thing 10:48:36 for some reason, "T01" != "T01" 10:48:48 and it's not because it's a literal methinks 10:48:58 Landr: do you know the differences between eq, eql, equal, and equalp? 10:49:12 yes, but that shouldn't matter since I intern the string, should it? 10:49:22 Phoodus: so I need to lock the condition variable before notifying on it? 10:49:36 and then the wait releases that 10:49:41 (eq (intern "T01") (intern "T01")) => T 10:49:55 (eq "T01" "T01") => NIL 10:50:06 BT could really do with a code example for this 10:50:20 Landr: why intern them in the first place? 10:50:29 because ht gives me a string, i think 10:50:34 and the hash table works with symbols 10:50:39 so i have to convert the string to a symbol 10:50:46 and it works fine if i do it in the terminal 10:50:46 no 10:50:50 Guthur: yes, when you notify, you do so with the lock held. When the notifier releases the lock, then the notified resumes 10:50:54 no? 10:51:08 Phoodus: ok cheers 10:51:13 Landr: just create the hash table with :test #'equal and use the strings as keys 10:51:17 I just found the blurp in the docs regarding it 10:51:18 (again, iirc. And it's standard behavior, not BT-specific, which is why they didn't bother saying how it works) 10:51:22 ... AAARGH!!! 10:51:23 I missed it the first time 10:51:26 *Landr* facepalms so hard 10:51:30 ah 10:51:31 I knew it I knew it I knew it 10:51:49 what's worse is that I had the exact same problem a week ago and I fixed it then... and forgot it again 10:51:57 thanks, el-maxo_ 10:52:06 no problem 10:52:09 Guthur: the reason it's all iirc for me is because I wrap all that crap behind an API and never worry about it again :) 10:52:31 Landr: Also, interning without being explicit about the package might leave you with two different (non-EQ) symbols. 10:52:53 Phoodus: yeah i can see the benefit of that 10:52:55 It depends on the value of CL:*PACKAGE* at runtime. 10:53:07 I'm not experience with all this low level concurrency stuff 10:54:36 btw, is there a library that does something similar to erlang's/go's message passing in CL? 10:54:58 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:55:33 hi 10:55:41 hi Posterdati 10:56:39 el-maxo_: I think there's a CL package that runs a full erlang node, with all the links & message boxes and all that 10:56:51 ... nope :( still not working 10:57:20 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:57:40 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 10:57:49 Phoodus: I have a hard time imagining that concept :D 10:59:02 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 10:59:11 it's no different than jinterface or the C one 10:59:43 it just doesn't actually run the processes 11:00:00 but it does deal with node liveness, exit messages, etc etc iirc 11:00:29 a threadsafe message queue is easy to bang up 11:00:46 but once you start dealing with actual agent lifecycles, things get more complicated anyway 11:01:33 *Landr* gives up 11:01:41 this is hopeless without knowing wtf is going on behind the scenes 11:01:51 Landr: have you tried tracing the functions involved? 11:02:10 that's the simplest way to see the real parameters & return values being thrown around 11:03:07 0: (TOEFL::GETTITLE "T01") 11:03:15 0: TOEFL::GETTITLE returned "NIL" 11:03:30 that's when ajax calls it 11:03:51 and the exact same thing when I call it from the terminal 11:04:12 but the first is not accepted into the table, even with :key 'equal 11:04:27 sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:04:33 err, :test that is 11:04:40 maybe equalp? 11:04:57 equalp loses case sensitivity on string comparisons 11:05:12 nope, no difference 11:05:21 *Phoodus* had to unlock & redefine #'equalp to get around that one 11:05:28 exact same input, different output 11:05:32 magic, i tell you 11:05:40 *Landr* needs a debugger 11:07:14 contextual question, why does gettitle return a string, and if it's for display, why does it matter if its backing nature is different? 11:07:34 this whole interning then getting the symbol-name is weird 11:07:54 if you want to flyweight a string to the same instance, then use the table for that directly 11:08:08 well, ajax gives me a string... so that's what i have to work with 11:08:20 but the table works with symbols mapped to values 11:08:30 so i need to convert the string to a symbol first through intern :\ 11:08:41 Landr: I told you you shouldnt do that 11:08:49 if you're working with strings, why are you using symbol keys? 11:08:58 err... i'm confused now 11:09:32 i need the symbols because they're used elsewhere as well... 11:09:33 (make-hash-table :test #'equal) 11:09:43 print out *package* as you run gettitle 11:09:43 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 11:10:03 (setf (gethash "foo" *hash-table*) bar) 11:10:09 because that might not match 'T01's package from the setf gethash above 11:10:41 or just format ~s the symbol you intern 11:10:58 hi ,does someone work for lispworks?i think i find a typo in http://www.lispworks.com/products/myths_and_legends.html,it's "New function and class definitions can be loaded after Lisp starts, even multiple times to accomodate".i thikn the accomodate is a typo. 11:11:01 o.O but it's all in the same package 11:11:07 how do you know? 11:11:12 because... ermm... 11:11:16 *Landr* doesn't :( 11:11:17 what package is current when ajax calls it? 11:11:29 I have no idea :( how can I tell? 11:11:31 or explicitly intern into the :toefl package 11:11:35 print *package* 11:12:53 oh that little bastard 11:12:57 he's in common-lisp and I'm in toefl 11:13:39 but i defined the function after doing (in-package :toefl) 11:13:43 so how did it escape? 11:13:55 so the backing string of toefl::t01 was determined most likely from the reader 11:14:20 while the backing string of common-lisp::t01 was created at runtime through your intern 11:14:24 and the two strings are not eq 11:14:41 (in-package ...) is a declaration to the reader 11:14:56 so while your defuns are being read, it's using that package 11:15:01 so... how do i fix this? 11:15:07 export tbl? 11:15:28 intern explicitly into the toefl package, or keyword package or wherever, or just use strings instead of symbols 11:15:47 you're dealing with string processing. I would advise against mucking with interning 11:16:44 (and I can't help but keep reading it as the Teufel package ;) ) 11:16:58 *Landr* whargarbls 11:18:44 :D it works! 11:18:56 thanks and praises to thee! 11:19:01 damnation and hellfire to packages! 11:19:04 off to class with me 11:19:05 *Landr* gone 11:19:34 packages are the shite 11:19:41 *el-maxo_* <3 packages 11:19:42 anyone want to bet he's still interning? 11:19:52 of course he is 11:20:25 I wanted to do that too once 11:20:41 but intern just isnt made for mortals 11:20:43 I tend to use weak hashtables instead of interning 11:21:05 strings are pretty nice 11:21:21 or the package option of intern should not be optional :-P 11:24:51 salva_oz [~kvirc@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 11:25:17 hi 11:27:20 hi 11:27:28 im tryin define a new method for a class in m2cl package, and I'm geting a r The symbol "handler" is not external in the m2cl package. wath is the correct aproach to solve that, thanks 11:27:48 export? 11:28:10 in m2cl? but im not the developer of this package 11:28:49 you could define your method inside the m2cl package 11:29:05 ...CL on win32 is not pleasant 11:30:03 Guthur: unless you have LW 11:30:10 yes but when update it will lost the changes, well a can try send it to the developer and may be put it there 11:30:29 you don't have to edit its source code 11:30:30 p_l|backup: yeah, don't think I'll be able to get that one one company expenses though 11:30:35 one/on 11:30:37 declare that stuff from your own code 11:31:16 i try it in a file doing a (in-package :m2cl) 11:31:33 at beggin, is this correct? 11:31:50 sure. You can also have multiple in-package declarations in a single file 11:32:18 I'm presuming you're intentionally extending some of its internals, not trying to do something that it explicitly expects you to do 11:33:58 i need a method that define but with another parameter in one of the funtion calls inside the method 11:36:44 well thanks a lot Phoodus 11:37:33 Lisp has no strict OO "encapsulation", so everything's open for you to twiddle 11:37:45 np 11:38:34 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.186.56] has joined #lisp 11:38:35 i thin my error was that first i try define it in my package then i put m2cl:handler in param defmethod 11:38:56 ah 11:39:04 if you did m2cl::handler, it probably would have worked 11:39:08 when i change to in-package m2cl i don delete that 11:39:20 Ragnaroek_ [~chatzilla@143.93.53.41] has joined #lisp 11:39:44 single colon only works for exported symbols; double colon grabs any symbol 11:39:58 Guthur: i've admittedly not used it all that much on windows, but CCL seems to do rather fine on it (and on anything else for that matter). 11:40:07 thanks 11:40:36 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:41:00 pkhuong [~pkhuong@gravelga.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #lisp 11:41:02 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:41:14 -!- Ragnaroek_ is now known as Ragnaroek 11:42:13 Guthur: 2nd thumbs up from me about CCL on windows, though I've only used the 64-bit version 11:43:28 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-190-145.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 11:44:01 Guthur: might be surprising :P 11:44:37 one thing I learnt about running a business is that the price of LW or Adobe Creative Suite isn't as high as it sems 11:44:46 *seems 11:46:51 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.186.56] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:47:28 -!- lujun [~lujun@58.33.89.9] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:49:54 -!- SpitfireWP_ is now known as SpitfireWP 12:00:17 if i call a existent defpackage and define a new export, the previous defpakage exports exists? 12:01:42 salva_oz: the consequences are undefined. 12:02:08 salva_oz: the defined way to add exports after the initial defpackage is via the EXPORT function. 12:02:29 thanks a lot Xach 12:02:45 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:03:13 markskilbeck [~mark@host86-136-236-147.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:03:13 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@host86-136-236-147.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 12:03:13 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 12:03:48 SBCL does what I expect when I add an export, so I use that. But it's not required to do that. 12:04:03 It also complains loudly when I remove an export and re-evaluate defpackage. 12:04:12 rvirding [~chatzilla@c-3c90e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 12:05:37 Joreji [~thomas@91-243.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:09:41 -!- teppey [~teppey@z172213.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Quit: ] 12:10:41 -!- aoh [~aki@85.23.168.123] has quit [Quit: switching servers] 12:11:39 enupten [~neptune@117.192.81.123] has joined #lisp 12:11:58 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:13:30 Xach: Are you going to make me fork commando to use external-program? ;) 12:13:48 aoh [~aki@85.23.168.115] has joined #lisp 12:13:57 I won't make ya. 12:14:09 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:14:14 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:14:51 forking commando sounds painful. And probably illegal in some states. 12:14:56 cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has joined #lisp 12:14:56 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has quit [Changing host] 12:14:56 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 12:16:08 sellout: My readme is too short. The other piece I find immensely handy is with-posix-cwd and in-temporary-directory. 12:16:12 pieces, rather. 12:16:12 ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 12:16:38 It really helps establish a scratch area to dump program output, and to synchronize Lisp and the run-program environment's idea of the current directory. 12:16:50 Those are sb-ext-y. 12:17:47 sykopomp [~sykopomp@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has joined #lisp 12:18:30 (Surely every implementation can do them in one way or another...) 12:19:24 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:20:38 Yeah  heh, you're right. There's plenty more that you use than is covered in external-program. More portability layers needed. And I'm not feeling up to that kind of work at the moment. 12:20:48 That'll be the small-soliders compatibility system. 12:21:54 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 12:23:38 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:24:14 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 12:28:19 Hey, using SBCL and threads... one of my threads calls (format t "Test"), but I never see this when I call (join-thread (make-thread #'thread-fn)) from slime 12:28:22 Xach: I love that you've left the ';;; "commando" goes here. Hacks and glory await!' 12:28:30 if I change that to (error) though, an error is raised so the code is called 12:28:33 what am I missing? 12:29:26 force-output? 12:29:37 ~%? 12:29:45 terpri? 12:30:08 I have ~% at the end sorry, it's (format *standard-output* "~a ~a~%" url response) to be precise 12:30:41 force-output doesn't show it up either 12:30:44 what's the etymology of "terpri" anyway? 12:31:40 ocharles: Look in *inferior-lisp* buffer? 12:31:46 terminate print 12:31:53 Xach: ah, i see the output there 12:32:00 ocharles: the slime thread has a local binding of *standard-output*. 12:32:18 Your new thread uses the global value. 12:32:57 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:33:15 cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has joined #lisp 12:33:15 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has quit [Changing host] 12:33:15 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 12:34:02 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@m452436d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:35:15 longfin [~longfin@1.105.154.67] has joined #lisp 12:36:11 lujun [~lujun@58.33.89.9] has joined #lisp 12:36:32 Is there a macro to time a block? 12:36:41 (time) 12:36:52 oh, I thought that returned the time 12:36:53 cool :) 12:37:34 -!- lujun [~lujun@58.33.89.9] has quit [Client Quit] 12:37:48 hrm, doesn't look like I can actually use the data from time - more that it goes to a special output? 12:37:55 if I understand the hyperspec correctly 12:38:30 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:39:30 ocharles: sbcl has a macro or function that provides the raw values used to produce TIME's output. 12:39:50 -!- spurvewt [~fess@gate113.iba.by] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:39:52 sb-ext:call-with-timing 12:40:11 Isn't there any way I can detect that a stream has been closed on me without actually trying to write anything to it? 12:40:20 -!- Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:40:31 (It's a network connection created by hunchentoot in this case) 12:40:47 Xach: nice, thanks! 12:41:00 lujun [~lujun@58.33.89.9] has joined #lisp 12:41:08 loke: there's a tcp_info getsockopt() call in linux, if that's enough for you 12:41:15 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:41:16 loke: open-stream-p? 12:41:28 damn, not in my sbcl, need to rebuild it 12:41:51 splittist2: I tried that one, but it returns non-NIL even after I closed the client browser connection. If, however, I try writing to it it will signal an error. 12:42:09 ocharles: Your SBCL has a very long beard! 12:42:13 loke: Handle the error? 12:42:17 loke: open-stream-p? 12:42:27 Xach: I am, but that could be a long time later 12:42:32 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.158.226] has joined #lisp 12:42:34 Xach: infinitely long, in fact 12:42:36 Xach: ha, I'm on 1.0.19 it seems 12:42:39 hi tcr. did you get a chance to try the update to buildapp? 12:43:14 not yet but perhaps soon 12:43:22 loke: so you actually need to know if the stream is writable (which is not necessarily the same thing)? 12:43:23 like within next week 12:43:32 Xach: This particular http handler is a feeder for a HTML5 EventSource. That means that I have to keep the connection open and olny write stuff when I want to push an update to the client. However, if the client is closed I won't notice it until I actually try to write stuff. 12:43:43 splittist2: see my explanation above 12:44:28 Is there a way to do an "incomplete" destructuring bind? trivial-http:http-get returns (response-code headers stream), but I only want the response-code (sure, I could use car/first, but destructuring-bind felt a bit nicer) 12:44:44 What I'm doing now is to write a null message every N number of seconds. That prevents infitely lingering threads that I got before, but the solution is not ideal. 12:45:09 (destructuring-bind (foo &rest ignored) ...) 12:45:24 (declare (ignore ignored)) 12:45:30 ocharles: make one. All you need it to generate a DESTRUCTURING-BIND form under the covers where the ignored fields are DECLAREd IGNORE 12:45:55 ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has joined #lisp 12:45:56 spurvewt [~fess@194.158.198.113] has joined #lisp 12:45:59 FIRST sounds much clearer 12:46:04 cool, I didn't know about declaring ignored 12:46:12 Good morning, all. 12:46:35 splittist2: And yes, I suppose what I want to know is if the stream is writable. 12:49:03 ocharles: IIRC using NIL as a destructuring variable causes that value to be ignored 12:49:31 flip214: that also seems correct, thanks 12:51:44 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:52:14 Xach: is there a chance that QuickLisp would gain "description" display in system-apropos? 12:52:18 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 12:52:24 jweiss [~user@cpe-069-134-063-238.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:53:02 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-150-156.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:56:14 p_l|backup: yes. 12:56:46 Xach: how big is that chance? 12:57:06 loke: I consider it an important feature. 12:57:59 He's working on the smiley and frowny face icons for the ratings 12:58:53 BlankVerse [~pankajm@117.197.254.113] has joined #lisp 12:59:50 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.186.56] has joined #lisp 13:00:10 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:00:36 So, common-lisp.net describes a CVS repository for SLIME, but it seems like a number of folks use git repositories. Is there an official home repository other than the one common-lisp.net describes, or is there a particularly active git repository that eventually feeds into that CVS repository? 13:01:18 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:01:33 ChibaPet: the CVS is authoritative and antifuchs has a git mirror that some people use. 13:01:34 cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has joined #lisp 13:01:34 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has quit [Changing host] 13:01:34 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 13:01:41 kk, ty 13:02:41 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:03:01 -!- enupten [~neptune@117.192.81.123] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:04:10 -!- longfin [~longfin@1.105.154.67] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:08:29 Xach: btw, what's the license for using Quicklisp data (outside of QL itself)? 13:08:52 the same as for the code? 13:09:58 p_l|backup: Hadn't thought about it. I want anyone to be able to use it for anything. 13:11:27 rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 13:12:06 sykopomp [~sykopomp@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:27 ok. 13:12:52 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:13:16 I was thinking of putting a web browser of Quicklisp database, with tagging and some other extras added later 13:14:32 Perhaps there needs to be a distinction drawn between the 'database' part of the QL data and the 'editorial' part. 13:15:08 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 13:15:23 uhh, (do ((line (read-line stream nil))) ((null line)) (format t "~a~%" line)) shouldn't be an infinite loop should it? 13:15:41 ocharles: yes, it should. you don't ever update LINE. 13:16:01 isn't that what's at the start of the loop? 13:16:02 ocharles: the syntax for a DO variable is (var init-form [update-form]) 13:16:18 ah, of course! 13:16:27 sigh, baby steps 13:16:32 That's why you see things like (i 42 (1+ i)) or (line (readline stream nil) (read-line stream nil)) 13:16:36 *ocharles* nods 13:16:39 (do ((line #1=(read-line stream nil) #1#)... 13:17:24 (loop for line = (read-line stream nil) do ...) 13:17:40 jdz: ... while line do ... 13:17:40 wihle line 13:17:46 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:17:51 for small things like this i tend to prefer using do instead of loop 13:18:02 but maybe I should rethink that if I shoot myself in the foot like this 13:18:05 well, my point was about the non-repeating of init/stepping clause 13:18:15 right 13:18:36 *Xach* has a (for-each-line (line-var pathname) ...) tucked away somewhere 13:18:38 you young whippersnappers and your non-tail-recursive hacks ;) 13:18:44 -!- tty234_ [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-gkllzlpwsqpurujt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:18:50 (loop (let ((line (read-line stream nil))) (unless line (return)) ...) 13:18:58 (iter (for line in-stream stream using #'readline) ...)? 13:19:17 and I thought perl was bad for tmtowtdi 13:19:18 :) 13:19:23 BlankVer1e [~pankajm@117.201.160.51] has joined #lisp 13:20:21 Let's talk about object models! 13:20:50 built purely from alists! 13:20:59 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@117.197.254.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:22:38 Raykon [~user@2001:690:2100:1b:3615:9eff:fe97:888b] has joined #lisp 13:22:40 -!- Joreji [~thomas@91-243.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:22:47 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:22:58 Xach: might be worth a look at some point - http://www.opendatacommons.org/licenses/pddl/1-0/ 13:23:04 longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has joined #lisp 13:23:22 sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:23:41 cmm [~cmm@79.183.205.247] has joined #lisp 13:25:03 -!- BlankVer1e [~pankajm@117.201.160.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:26:02 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-77.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:26:53 BlankVerse [~pankajm@117.197.235.82] has joined #lisp 13:27:44 Kenjin [~josesanto@83.240.225.146] has joined #lisp 13:30:14 amirhoshangi [~amir@95.38.52.69] has joined #lisp 13:30:45 hi guys 13:31:15 Ok, hopefully last question (yea right): (register-groups-bind (duration) ("^(\\d+\\.\\d+)" log-line) (parse-integer duration)) -- why does this give a compile warning of "This is not a string: NIL" 13:31:29 (I'm using cl-ppcre here) 13:31:56 whats ":" convention in => (stream "/usr/dst/timber.newdat" :direction :output) 13:32:00 ocharles: SBCL leaking out warnings in macroexpanded code that it usually suppresses 13:32:18 Xach: should I be worried about it? 13:32:21 :whats ":" convention in => (stream "/usr/dst/timber.newdat" : direction :output) 13:32:21 "Ceci n'est pas une string" 13:32:38 ocharles: No. If it annoys you, you can add something like (when duration ...) 13:32:49 amirhoshangi: keywords, symbols in the keyword package 13:32:51 amirhoshangi: :foo is the syntax of a keyword symbol. 13:33:38 any clear e.g ? 13:34:07 (stream "/usr/dst/timber.newdat" :direction :output) ;-P 13:34:23 amirhoshangi: They are used in places where symbol eq-ness performance is handy but the package of the symbol is not important. 13:34:25 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:34:26 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 13:34:46 And other places. 13:34:50 and some functions can take (... :keyname val ...) arguments 13:35:40 oanyway what you mean by package, i imagine java packages ! 13:36:15 a package is an object of type package 13:36:31 all lisp symbols exist in some package (or nil). It's basically the namespacing facility of lisp 13:36:41 A package is a namespace that maps symbol names to symbols 13:37:13 cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.139.98.69] has joined #lisp 13:37:15 amiroshangi: see Chapter 11 of the Spec 13:37:19 tty234 [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-pnjkimxfflqcqqhb] has joined #lisp 13:37:19 the package 'keyword' is reserved as a utility package for said cases 13:37:48 splittist2: ill check it 13:37:58 Aiwass [~Aiwass4@79.115.164.7] has joined #lisp 13:38:59 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 13:38:59 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 13:38:59 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 13:39:29 alama [~alama@n138232.science.ru.nl] has joined #lisp 13:39:40 Well, all interned symbols, anyhow. 13:39:40 amirhoshangi: This might be more accessible: http://www-prod-gif.supelec.fr/docs/cltl/clm/node111.html But note that you need to understand what a symbol is... 13:39:49 -!- aerique [310225@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 13:40:23 k 13:41:02 (symbols are covered in Chapter 10) Like a lot of things, packages and symbols are usually easier to use than to write or read about. 13:43:08 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:43:46 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 13:43:52 Triplefault [~Mouse@adsl-72-145-215-164.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 13:44:50 How do I work with large numbers? For example I need to read (from a string): 1301986608.528 and have accuracy down to about 0.001 13:44:50 splittist2: foo:bar, refers to the symbol whose name is bar in the package whose name is foo 13:45:01 what about my case ? 13:45:05 If I just read-from-string on that, I get 1.3019866e9 and lose accuracy 13:46:18 ocharles: why do you think you lose accuracy? 13:46:19 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:46:24 ocharles: *read-default-float-format* might help with that. 13:46:30 jdz: because (- 1301986608.528 1301986618.528) gives me "0.0" 13:46:42 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:46:44 rather than something close to 10 13:47:24 jdz: welcome to floating point hell 13:47:29 ocharles: well, your first problem is that you're using floating point numbers 13:47:32 ocharles: use parse-number 13:47:34 lujun_ [~lujun@180.172.36.68] has joined #lisp 13:47:35 -!- lujun [~lujun@58.33.89.9] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:47:49 ocharles: what Xach proposed might postpone the inevitable 13:48:02 with read-default-float-format to 'double-float this works as expected 13:48:11 fe[nl]ix: I'll look in to parse-number 13:48:37 I believe 0.0d0 is the literal reader form for double-float, if you want to feed it from that end 13:49:13 Joreji [~thomas@91-243.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:50:00 Is sleep (at least in sbcl) high resolution? 13:50:17 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-16.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 13:50:23 -!- Raykon [~user@2001:690:2100:1b:3615:9eff:fe97:888b] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:50:36 -!- amirhoshangi [~amir@95.38.52.69] has left #lisp 13:51:23 ocharles: and if double-float is not enought, there's long-float (- 1301986608.528d0 1301986618.528d0) or (- 9012389081908590181301986608.528L0 901890580425783471301986618.528L0) 13:52:04 ocharles: yes. 13:52:06 amirhoshangi: it's shorthand for the 'keyword' package. "This package contains all of the keywords used by built-in or user-defined Lisp functions. Printed symbol representations that start with a colon are interpreted as referring to symbols in this package, which are always external symbols. All symbols in this package are treated as constants that evaluate to themselves, so that the user can type :foo instead of ':foo." 13:52:11 cool, double-float should do it (the number is seconds since epoch, so unless something very very odd happens, it shouldn't change magnitude any time soon :)) 13:52:15 ocharles: in clisp you can even increase the number of significant digits to long floats. (setf (EXT:LONG-FLOAT-DIGITS) 2000) 13:52:30 ocharles: which epoch? 13:52:40 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 13:52:41 I'm not sure, whatever nginx logs use 13:52:53 unix sounds likely. 13:53:06 yea 13:53:28 so! if anyone is curious - I'm actually working on a little 'log replayer' for load testing some server changes. https://gist.github.com/958977 is what you've helped me write :) 13:53:46 hrm, need to actually produce some useful output still 13:54:37 i'm considering boycotting github until they remove "Courier New" from code style 13:54:49 not that anybody would care 13:55:11 user style? 13:56:23 they are showing code to programmers; every programmer has their own favourite fixed font; making every programmer in the world to customize all their browser user styles instead of doing the right thing (i.e., using the monospace family) is bad 13:56:24 ok, next question :) I actually want to run this script with piped input and stuff - do I use "sbcl --script foo.lisp" for that? 13:56:54 jdz: i guess that's true 13:57:22 -!- am0c [~am0c@210.94.187.49] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:58:31 BlankVer1e [~pankajm@117.197.238.166] has joined #lisp 13:58:47 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@117.197.235.82] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:59:04 hrm, can't get quicklisp to work on the other machine: http://paste.lisp.org/display/121804 This is after downloading with curl, loading in sbcl, and doing (quicklisp-quickstart:install) and then (ql:add-to-init-file) 13:59:22 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 13:59:22 (and then just running sbcl) 13:59:30 ocharles: http://quicklisp.org/beta/release-notes.html has a few suggestions 13:59:50 ah, great 14:00:28 removing cl-asdf wants to remove sbcl, so I'll just try moving that file 14:00:44 symbole [~user@50-56-28-56.static.cloud-ips.com] has joined #lisp 14:00:51 removing cl-asdf and sbcl is not a bad thing. 14:01:11 and then building from source? 14:01:52 ocharles: just getting the binary should do the trick 14:02:04 Also, is there any best practice for packaging stuff that I developed using quicklisp? Do I stick (ql:quickload "cl-ppcre") in my script? 14:02:12 billitch [~billitch@78.251.131.133] has joined #lisp 14:02:31 ocharles: I don't think SBCL is especially well suited to script type stuff. 14:02:47 hm 14:02:49 ocharles: When I want to make command-line utilities with sbcl, I use buildapp to make a binary. It does all the loading upfront. 14:03:02 yea, i saw the gif of that, which looks interesting 14:03:03 if you use --script, it ignores your sbclrc 14:03:10 Phoodus: I don't have one :) 14:03:14 Compilation and FASL loading is pretty slow and verbose, so using libraries becomes a hassle in scripting style. 14:03:18 oh, i do now I see 14:03:22 isn't that what add-to-init-file does? 14:03:27 yea, sorry :) 14:03:29 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.139.98.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:03:32 Xach: ok, i'll check out buildapp 14:03:37 but you can use --eval and (quit) 14:03:59 _3b: cl-mongo's markdown file seems to either throw 3bmd into a loop or just make it really slow. 14:05:07 Also, it seems to be printing stuff as it works. I see NIL NIL NIL and some alists. 14:05:49 -!- orivej_ is now known as orivej 14:05:50 Xach: http://paste.lisp.org/display/121805 buildapp doesn't seem to make here, unless I'm doing it wrong (entirely possible) 14:06:15 ocharles: Your sbcl is too old. 14:06:32 ok, i'll update that then 14:11:01 Phoodus, hypno sorry was AFK for ages there 14:11:19 I have been using CCL on windows, it's ok, 14:11:50 But I just feel things are not as robust as when using Linux 14:12:35 Is there a way to always force macro-style indentation in emacs/slime? 14:12:47 What is macro-style indentation? 14:12:59 two spaces instead of aligning arguments. 14:13:06 Guthur: huh, we were threading all over the place & talking to external apps through stdio pipes, running the same code on win/ccl and linux/sbcl. Ran rock-solid in both, except win/ccl was slower 14:13:08 sykopomp: &body? 14:13:23 sellout: For functions, as well. 14:13:36 (make-instance 'frobnitz 14:13:36 :slot1 val) 14:14:07 sykopomp: CCL's IDE actually does that for make-instance specifically, which I kind of like. 14:14:39 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:14:52 sellout: Allegro's IDE does it in general, and I'd like to be able to be a good citizen at work. 14:14:59 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 14:16:15 Guthur: There was (is?) a robust & cheap win32 lisp, but it didn't support Unicode and had some quirks (related to ASDF, iirc) 14:17:02 pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 14:17:04 sykopomp: Ah, I see. 14:17:27 Phoodus: it could be my app to be honest 14:17:32 also, there's a bunch of macros that use &rest instead of &body, and it's driving me loopy. 14:17:38 and I suspect the foreign code is the main source of pain 14:18:27 ocharles: how's the haar transform? 14:18:42 slyrus_: I got some sort of output, but it doesn't look right 14:18:49 haven't had chance to revisit it yet though 14:18:53 ok 14:18:54 Guthur: could be; I don't do ffi 14:18:54 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:19:52 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:20:21 ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 14:21:27 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 14:21:32 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:22:02 cfy [~cfy@122.228.135.213] has joined #lisp 14:22:02 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.135.213] has quit [Changing host] 14:22:02 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 14:23:15 mydik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:23:52 I'm giving the experimental SBCL a go at the moment 14:24:05 "experimental sbcl"? 14:24:19 nikodemus: the win32 threading one 14:24:19 do you mean the current frozen one? 14:24:26 oh, ok 14:24:39 -!- BlankVer1e [~pankajm@117.197.238.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:25:02 maybe if I can 'infect' enough of our workflow with CL I could get a LW license, hehe 14:25:11 ...well one can dream at least 14:25:19 do you need CAPI? 14:25:23 nah 14:25:29 That's precisely the phrasing you should use with your boss, too. "I've infected us, ha ha!" 14:25:49 if not ... what do you need lw for? 14:25:50 cool, buildapp works nicely :) 14:26:02 hehe, yep and like any good virus it will stay undetected until it is too late 14:26:29 -!- mydik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:26:36 muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:07 but in this situation and imho, there is no better tool for the job than CL 14:28:51 not dissing list, just wondering about "use one implementation, then when it's in place get an LW license and switch to it" -- which seemed to be implied 14:29:02 s/list/lisp/ 14:29:51 nikodemus: If I were to make a desktop application, LW would be my definite choice 14:30:06 -!- vert2_ is now known as vert2 14:30:08 nikodemus: which is why i asked if CAPI was needed 14:30:17 um, p_l|backup i mean :) 14:30:25 nikodemus: talking to yourself there 14:30:32 indeed 14:30:42 Guthur: the experimental SBCL/win32 branches have some good stuff; I wouldn't advertise them as alternatives to CCL/win32 for end users yet though 14:30:58 Guthur: I can understand that the purchasing department might be happier with an invoice from Lispworks Ltd (or whatever), but I'm sure Steel Bank Studios Inc. would be happy to send one, too (: 14:31:06 I only said that because I just get the impression many free implementations do not give much love to win32 suppotr 14:31:07 What does the error "USOCKET:NS-HOST-NOT-FOUND-ERROR" mean? 14:31:10 support* 14:31:14 nikodemus: also, LW has quite xtensive threading/concurrency support since 6.0 14:31:51 ocharles: it means a hostname lookup in the name service failed, I think. 14:32:11 hm weird. I can't see why, the previous 15 requests go through fine (and it'll all to the same host) 14:32:18 ocharles: weird. 14:32:54 Guthur: CCL gives lots of love to win32 support; SBCL will eventually catch up, too. 14:33:17 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-qugebfnhgtvadgdi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:34:13 -!- silenius [~silenus@p54947250.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:34:54 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7570a3.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 14:35:23 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:35:25 Guthur: well, *proper* win32 support is quite different from supporting POSIX API & semantics 14:36:37 Whn I get a proper winows developement machine, I'd like to see if I can get some of the Win32-spcific stuff into IOlib 14:36:41 BlankVerse [~pankajm@117.201.161.186] has joined #lisp 14:38:36 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:38:48 (including proper asynchronous I/O, not just that select() simulation from WinSock) 14:40:00 I'm trying to use libc with cffi but I'm having this message back: Error opening shared object "libc.so" /usr/lib64/libc.so: invalid ELF header 14:40:06 do you know why ? 14:40:31 p_l|backup: make sure to talk to hlavaty if you do work on that 14:41:02 kiuma: did you per chance run 32bit lisp? 14:41:18 *sykopomp* wonders if there's really a solid advantage in having sexp-HTML libraries that work through streams instead of string composition. 14:41:19 Otherwise, check if it's really a library and not linker script 14:41:28 Xach: I have a feeling it's caused by having too many sockets open or something 14:41:33 p_l|backup, no, build from gentoo package 14:41:45 is the difference really noticeable in light of network overhead? Is there a different advantage I'm not aware of? 14:41:56 also, libc.so shouldn't be in /usr/lib64 14:42:00 sykopomp: they'll have to keep a stack of stuff to close anyway, not sure if there's really a huge advantage 14:42:05 at least not under FHS 14:42:08 p_l|backup: I look forward to you doing that 14:42:26 p_l|backup: did you not get a copy of windows when at uni 14:42:32 string appending is potentially more expensive, but if the library is smart, it doesn't append them anyway (: 14:42:35 the academic license 14:42:50 Guthur: an interesting project would be a CFFI binding to as many WindowsAPIs as possible, then add lispy layer 14:43:10 Guthur: I have non-commercial Windows 2008r2 + VS2010, but nowhere to run it :P 14:43:12 antifuchs: and I guess in 90% of cases, you're consing the original strings anyway... 14:43:43 sykopomp: funny enough, I did that once for autobench when it was running in araneida... didn't speed up page processing at all (: 14:44:08 mostly because the time spent in FORMAT was mostly spent in making SQL queries. I was young and innocently silly back then (; 14:44:08 antifuchs: Which did you do? 14:44:59 a sexp-to-streaming-HTML macro instead of araneida's string-appending one 14:45:00 Guthur: also, just rewriting RDNZL to support modern .NET would be a great thing - you can access most of the useful Windows APIs nicely through it (and .NET is recommended anyway :P) 14:45:04 nikodemus: Have you been following #lisp recently when win32 plans came up briefly? 14:45:18 My plan is to separate safepoint-changes out from win32-specific changes on dmitry's branch. 14:45:19 ah 14:45:31 lichtblau: sounds good to me. 14:45:32 Initially safepoint changes would replace SIG_STOP_FOR_GC and SIPPIPE (aka INTERRUPT-THREAD) only, leaving pseudo-atomic itself still in for all the other signal support in SBCL. 14:45:58 antifuchs: is there a real stylistic advantage to using either, then? I've been pretty happy passing functions around to get html generated in the right places. 14:46:08 sykopomp: anyway - it might cut down on string processing, but it didn't make anything any less complex 14:46:08 that seemed as good as composing return values. 14:46:14 Then Win32 threading in one or more pieces. 14:46:31 I now use html templates and steer well clear of the sexp-based ones 14:46:47 I've grown fond of Erlang's iolist idea for avoiding string concatenation 14:46:52 antifuchs: what do you use for html templating? 14:46:54 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@117.201.161.186] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:47:28 html-template (: 14:47:33 nikodemus: Just letting you know; I don't know how much you had been into those branches. I've been reading any comments from you guys I could find on github. 14:47:44 antifuchs: does html-template return big strings, or does it let you pipe stuff straight to a stream? 14:47:50 (does it even matter?) 14:48:06 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-meibjpfhyliysbtp] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:48:29 milanj [~milanj_@212-200-194-87.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 14:50:29 BlankVerse [~pankajm@117.197.241.13] has joined #lisp 14:50:33 sykopomp: I haven't measured any difference, but my biggest problem with the sexp-based stuff was that it made me mix the code too much with the presentation 14:50:40 it felt like coding php in reverse sometimes 14:50:53 Isn't anything you do with the strings going to be dwarfed by the gifs for rounded corners... 14:51:20 anybody using images for round corners nowadays? 14:52:17 jdz: some people, but mainly through polyfills 14:52:43 (well, regarding *good* developers designing *now*) 14:52:59 p_l|backup: what polyfills? 14:53:20 p_l|backup: as far as i know it's just about setting corner radius in CSS 14:54:57 jdz: sometimes you want to do the rounded corners even with border-radius being unsupported 14:55:58 pnq [~nick@ACA24138.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 14:55:58 p_l|backup: if you want your customers to stay on IE6 forever, then yes, take another reason to switch away from them. 14:56:27 p_l|backup: well, not you exactly, but "them" 14:58:27 jdz: that's why I'm requesting Chrome Frame in everything I write, because the people who form the majority of IE6 users nowadays are those stranded by badly written but mission critical applications, or by stupid IT support 14:58:45 ITYM IE8 14:59:12 lichtblau: I wish 15:01:30 I'm getting a sneaky suspicion that some of my foreign code issue might be related to cl ssl 15:01:42 hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:10 p_l|backup: yeah, IT"jdz"M IE8 when he implies that browser less ancient than that support border-radius 15:02:19 p_l|backup: but never mind, this isn't #webdev :-) 15:02:23 yeah 15:03:40 Guthur: CL+SSL works pretty well if you don't use threads and are not on Windows 15:04:05 well, other for a question that bothered me lately, namely how to merge certain current portability tricks with CL html generation :) 15:04:10 lichtblau: umm... 15:04:29 *Guthur* cries "give me linux" 15:05:45 I can give you a virtual machine. 15:05:47 Do it like the CL+SSL author does: Put an nginx in front of the lisp; SSL problem solved. 15:07:21 bobbysmith0071 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 15:09:10 a VM would be nice, not sure I can justify it though, my team mates are all .NET devs and rather partial to windows, poor misguided 15:09:19 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:09:22 dustylane [u782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cgxksmfoxjwqtctt] has joined #lisp 15:09:39 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.206.51] has joined #lisp 15:10:11 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:13:18 -!- bobbysmith0071 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 263 seconds] 15:13:22 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 15:14:00 lichtblau: $author being emarsden ? 15:15:09 lichtblau: i've skipped the win32 thread on sbcl-devel so far, because i haven't had the cycles for it. i'm hoping to look at it this weekend 15:17:56 antifuchs: i just now came across your blog post (http://boinkor.net/archives/2009/11/hunchentoot-gets-a-debugging-a.html) on hunchentoot debugging 15:18:15 how can i use your debuggable-acceptor? 15:18:18 fe[nl]ix: emarsden is indeed the original author of the codebase, but from the time before Neonsquare worked on it, and before I renamed it CL+SSL (and probably introduced many bugs...), so I meant myself in this case. 15:18:21 (it's not clear to me how to proceed) 15:19:31 lichtblau: :D 15:20:11 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 15:20:53 nikodemus: OK. I haven't pushed my changes to any visible place yet. 15:21:00 But I'm at the point where I've refactored Dmitry's safepoints to separate them from windows-specific changes. I'll let you know when I have a patchset that's worth reviewing again. 15:21:12 \o/ 15:22:00 alama: oh, I didn't update that 15:22:24 alama: hunchentoot now has a *catch-errors-p* (I think it's called) and comes with this functionality built in 15:22:45 antifuchs: oh, ok 15:23:20 debugging in hunchentoot stil seems like it could use some improvement 15:24:08 I guess... but once you get a debugger pop-up, it's already much better than when you don't (: 15:24:30 how do get the debugger to come up? 15:24:48 i'm using a multi-threaded sbcl; i can't seem to get the debugger to come up 15:25:05 (that would indeed be a valuable second-best thing) 15:25:12 ummm.. weird! are you connected using slime? 15:25:15 seangrove [~user@c-98-234-242-172.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:25:29 if you set *catch-errors-p* to NIL, that should give you slime debuggers whenever something goes wrong. 15:25:35 -!- naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:25:40 then the problem would be to improve the quality of the stack traces (the stacktraces that are being emitted for me with sbcl are often not as useful as i'd like) 15:26:19 alama: have you compiled your stuff with high enough DEBUG optimization? 15:26:44 jdz: i think so -- i set a pretty high debug in my asdf system definition file 15:26:50 (but perhaps that's not the way to do it) 15:27:59 alama: well, i have (proclaim '(optimize (safety 3) (debug 3))) in my ~/.sbclrc 15:28:14 jdz: ah, cool 15:28:37 how can i get the current value of the optimze, debug, etc. compiler declarations from the repl? 15:28:41 Davsebamse [~davse@gate.ipvision.dk] has joined #lisp 15:28:48 alama: implementation dependent 15:29:13 right, i figured -- i didn't come across anything on the hyperref 15:29:51 alama: in CCL it is (ccl:declaration-information 'optimize), there was also something similar for SBCL 15:30:04 sb-ext:describe-compiler-policy 15:30:45 lbc_ [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 15:31:35 sb-cltl2:declaration-information 15:34:11 _iori_ [~iori@110-133-45-54.rev.home.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:34:23 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c-3c90e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 15:35:44 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@143.93.53.41] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:35:59 nikodemus: thanks 15:36:54 nikodemus: thanks 15:37:11 oh, whoops, it somehow seems that sbcl thinks that my debug declaration is set to 1 15:37:13 d'oh 15:37:16 srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:25 that might explain my less-than-ideal stack traces 15:38:44 naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has joined #lisp 15:39:00 glidesurfer [~rosario@77-64-171-36.dynamic.primacom.net] has joined #lisp 15:39:19 alama: .asd is the wrong place indeed 15:39:51 can you recommend an alternative? one place is my .sbclrc, i suppose; any other suggestions? 15:40:24 either put the (declaim (optimize ...)) in every source file, or in your .sbclrc. however, if eg. hunchentoot has it's own optimize declaims, those will the one from your .sbclrc 15:41:36 but! if you evaluate (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 'debug 3) then _nothing_ will be compiled at a debug policy of less than 3 -- even if there is a (locally (declare (optimize (debug 0)) ...)) 15:41:40 I prefer to have declaims in each file; minimises the probability of surprises down the road. 15:42:45 nikodemus: ah, ok 15:42:53 for safety, then, i might put that in my .sbclrc 15:43:18 pkhuong: same here, I've got (optimize-file) and (optimize-body &body ...) macros, which I can toggle on & off centrally 15:43:54 there's also (with-compilation-unit (:policy ...) ...) ; non-standard sbcl extension 15:44:48 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 15:44:58 Note that the effect of (declaim (optimize ...)) is not necessarily file-local. (It has load-time effects in ccl, for instance.) 15:45:03 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:45:07 I think I might be repeating myself... 15:45:53 (ok, I lied.. I *really* prefer having a declare in each definition ;) 15:46:07 it has load-time effects in sbcl as well, but those are limited to he dynamic scope of LOAD 15:47:08 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:47:09 -!- lanthan [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:47:30 So, in ccl, you can say (load "optimiation-settings.fasl") and then compile all your code. 15:50:32 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has joined #lisp 15:52:50 So which contrib has slime-toggle-declarations and slime-toggle-docstrings? 15:53:36 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:55:15 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:55:44 Where is portable-hemlock now? 15:56:16 lichtblau's gitorious? 15:56:46 Answering my own question: http://gitorious.org/hemlock/pages/Home (thanks pkhoung) 15:57:42 Xach: interesting option for Quicklisp - "mirror repository" :) 16:00:15 (mapcar #'ql-dist:ensure-installed (ql-dist:provided-systems (first (ql-dist:all-dists)))) <--- what I have now, will have to correct it for multiple dists 16:00:22 Hmm. If I do trivial-http:http-get, the socket is left around in CLOSE_WAIT state after 16:00:36 any idea how I could avoid that? 16:00:49 p_l|backup: (map nil 'ensure-installed (provided-systems t)) 16:01:01 ahh 16:03:13 https://github.com/gwkkwg/trivial-http/blob/master/dev/trivial-http.lisp#L90 hrm, never calls socket-close 16:03:13 well, mine runs well enough at the moment, but for finished version I'll definitely use yours 16:03:28 Any other nice and simple http client libraries that don't leak? 16:03:30 pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:31 *p_l|backup* is preparing for a night without internet access 16:03:40 ocharles: I recommend you look into Drakma 16:03:47 cool, I'll have a look at that 16:04:18 yay, this looks like it will actually close sockets 16:04:47 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:05:03 -!- glidesurfer [~rosario@77-64-171-36.dynamic.primacom.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:05:55 slyrus__ [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-45-145.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:13 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has joined #lisp 16:07:21 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:10:26 BountyX [~erhan@csu-137-148-235-242.csuohio.edu] has joined #lisp 16:16:25 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@97.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:18:05 HG` [~HG@p5DC04E09.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:23 makao007 [3d8ed192@gateway/web/freenode/ip.61.142.209.146] has joined #lisp 16:24:22 (incf drakma) 16:24:40 -!- Joreji [~thomas@91-243.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:27:45 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:28:20 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 16:28:41 -!- slyrus__ [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-45-145.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:29:22 slyrus__ [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-45-145.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:24 Joreji [~thomas@91-243.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:30:48 hankhero [~Adium@c213-89-201-154.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:31:47 gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 16:33:40 Is it possible to make drakma work with invalid urls? Ie: (drakma:http-request "http://google.com/?query=\"invalid\\\"") 16:33:50 I don't see why it's really drakma's responsibility to validate that 16:34:59 for some of my uses i have (setf puri:*strict-parse* nil) 16:35:12 which may or may not be enough for you 16:35:20 ocharles: ^ 16:35:34 aha, i didn't know about that. i will investigate 16:35:47 hi 16:35:57 is there anyone interested in ... ouch 16:36:01 Guthur: it lets that request go through - thank you! 16:36:03 already asked 16:36:20 Guthur: are there actually docs that mention that? I'm really struggling to actually find documentation on half the stuff I want to use 16:36:24 ocharles: if you use cookie jars, drakma may need to merge the URL with other stuff; failure to parse the URI may result in errors 16:36:32 ocharles: np, someone helped me here with a similar issue 16:36:44 ocharles: not sure if it is actually documented 16:38:33 is there a simple syntax to give a defvar a docstring but leave its value unbound? 16:40:30 Phoodus: (setf documentation...)? 16:40:38 -!- longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:40:55 yeah, but not in the defvar itself I presume 16:41:07 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:41:34 -!- BountyX [~erhan@csu-137-148-235-242.csuohio.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:42:33 amirhoshangi [~amir@95.38.52.69] has joined #lisp 16:42:48 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 16:43:01 -!- amirhoshangi [~amir@95.38.52.69] has left #lisp 16:44:47 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@117.197.241.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:45:04 Phoodus: no. 16:45:33 Phoodus: weitzware defines defvar-unbound or something like that. 16:46:30 -!- hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has left #lisp 16:47:29 colbseton [~colbseton@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-123-154.w90-36.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:49:32 -!- splittist2 [~splittist@57-191.62-81.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:50:41 -!- billitch [~billitch@78.251.131.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:51:22 billitch [~billitch@78.251.58.152] has joined #lisp 16:51:59 BlankVerse [~pankajm@117.197.241.46] has joined #lisp 16:52:56 -!- colbseton [~colbseton@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-123-154.w90-36.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 16:53:15 -!- slyrus__ [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-45-145.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:53:51 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:57:28 -!- hankhero [~Adium@c213-89-201-154.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:00:12 jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.56] has joined #lisp 17:01:39 splittist2 [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 17:02:10 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C744D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:37 Bronsa [~brace@host98-190-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:10:16 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@117.197.241.46] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:10:23 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:10:51 BlankVerse [~pankajm@117.197.241.46] has joined #lisp 17:11:02 nha [~prefect@92.105.194.250] has joined #lisp 17:12:34 -!- makao007 [3d8ed192@gateway/web/freenode/ip.61.142.209.146] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:13:56 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.206.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:15:48 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:17:51 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:18:53 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:18:58 timjstewart1 [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 17:21:30 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:44 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-108-21.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:42 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:23:43 glidesurfer [~rosario@77-64-171-36.dynamic.primacom.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:11 lanthan [~ze@dslb-088-074-138-145.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:38 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:31:16 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:31:31 mkfmn [~mkfmncom@static-71-249-131-121.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:40 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 17:32:54 gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 17:35:45 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:38:45 -!- convulsive [~convulsiv@129.133.193.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:43:02 asher9 [~asher@c-24-91-59-62.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:30 -!- salva_oz [~kvirc@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.1.1 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 17:43:52 lichtblau: to whom should i direct bug reports in the xuriella doc-building process? 17:44:34 ASau [~user@95-26-159-184.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 17:44:35 -!- ASau` [~user@93-80-248-41.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:44:39 Is there an unspoken rule on whether to parenthesize macro arguments? If macro FOO takes arguments A and B, should it look like (foo (a b) ... body ... ) or (foo a b ... body ...) 17:44:55 I've seen both styles 17:45:17 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 17:45:27 Assuming there CAN be a choice, of course 17:45:44 asher9: It can help if there are &optional, &rest, or &key options you want to give, along with a body. 17:45:46 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:45:55 I only do that if there's a variable number of arguments, otherwise there's no reason to 17:45:58 asher9: otherwise the parens are not generally needed. 17:46:05 yes, assuming none of &rest etc exist 17:46:05 asher9: (foo (a b) ...) can help with more complex arguments, or to future-proof against such. 17:46:06 <_3b> if the 'a b' part is a set of bindings, i'd lean towards parens 17:46:23 Also, depending on the semantics, the parents may be clearer. 17:46:26 asher9: there can be a choice... if you're writing a destructuring macro, I think it's usually (destructuring-thing value-form &body body); if you're writing a with-style thing, you may want &key in the arguments, so grouping them together helps 17:46:50 It is not Adobe's fault, it is your fault for using Flash for the most pathetic things mankind has known. <--- hahahahahahahaha, probably best saying about Flash on the web, ever. 17:46:54 (bt:with-lock-held ((obj-lock obj)) ...) I hate that 17:47:01 p_l|backup: please talk about it somewhere else. 17:47:30 -!- tvaalen [~r@67.217.170.35] has quit [Changing host] 17:47:31 tvaalen [~r@unaffiliated/tvaal] has joined #lisp 17:48:04 Phoodus: when with-lock-held gets additional arguments, that's when you'll stop hating it (-: 17:48:08 (if) (: 17:48:17 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-165-72.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:48:20 Phoodus: and yet so useful: do you want to introduce timeouts, backoff, ... 17:48:27 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-108-21.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:48:50 I've done that with &rest or &body, scanning the first elements to see if they're keywords 17:48:52 I understand the future-proofing reasons -- my question is given the number of arguments won't ever change. For example there are two forms of when-let floating around, one with parens, one without. 17:49:00 All things being equal, do you still use parens? 17:49:04 Xach: sorry, blurted it out. Anyway, brb, gonna go to hospital 17:49:08 Phoodus: that sounds awful 17:49:16 but it's transparent 17:49:30 Phoodus: not helpful to smart editors. 17:49:32 Phoodus: how about (with-something :some-keyword-argument-that-with-something-would-handle)? 17:49:39 Phoodus: keyword argument markers need not be keywords. 17:49:42 does that return the keyword arg or does it error? 17:50:06 asher9: it depends. For instance, if there are many such arguments, parentheses help editors get the grouping better. 17:50:25 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:50:50 I didn't structure it like &key arguments 17:51:31 but the beginning of the body can have special statements that trigger various opt-in stuff without going all nested 17:51:53 Xach: ....me? 17:52:10 obviously, that was driven more by not breaking existing code that uses it 17:52:24 antifuchs: about as awful as DECLARE ;) 17:52:28 but in the end, I prefer that over aggressive pre-nesting "just incase" :-P 17:52:35 lichtblau: Ok! The makefile assumes that you already have the html files built, so it fails on a fresh checkout & attempted build. 17:53:01 pkhuong: exactly! 17:53:05 lichtblau: I had to touch empty html files and then touch the xml files to get the timestamps right. another option would be "rm -f" in the makefile. 17:53:09 pkhuong: I'm not a huge fan of declare / docstrings 17:53:31 or rather, declare/docstring interactions 17:54:02 (defun foo () (declare (docstring "Hah!")) nil) 17:54:11 like (defun foo (a) (declare (ignore a)) "some-string") is a function that returns a string, but (defun foo (a) "some-string" (declare (ignore a))) is a function that returns nil 17:54:22 took me too long to get right in my code walker (: 17:54:44 (defun (foo :documentation "something") (a) (declare (ignore a))) ; would be much nicer. 17:55:12 (defun (foo :export t :inline t ...) (a) ...) 17:55:25 might as well go for broke 17:55:36 Phoodus: functions aren't exported. 17:55:56 right, but I made defun-export, and I've seen similar in lots of other systems 17:56:10 stuff that attaches to the function object could go there, yeah. inline; type declarations. 17:56:33 awwwww, hell yeah! ht-simple-ajax part deux, this time it's personal 17:56:42 sure, if you're lazy and know what you're doing. I don't think it's a good idea to perpetuate the myth that functions or types or classes are exported. 17:57:01 Xach: thanks. Fix pushed to some repo (the right one, I hope). 17:57:42 (rather, ftype declarations) 17:57:55 Are there some packages that (setf (documentation ...)) instead of docstrings? 17:58:16 Yes there are 17:58:36 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.202.190] has joined #lisp 17:58:56 good or bad? 17:59:08 ? 17:59:31 boring 17:59:48 -!- mkfmn [~mkfmncom@static-71-249-131-121.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 17:59:51 asher9: makes sourcecode nicer to read - I hate scrolling past tons of documentation strings when debugging (: 18:00:08 but it also means you have to edit two places 18:00:09 aren't docstrings the most useful when debugging though? 18:00:16 cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has joined #lisp 18:00:16 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has quit [Changing host] 18:00:16 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 18:00:22 ("what did this function do again?") 18:00:31 I'm not interested in what somebody asserts should happen, but what actually happens (: 18:00:35 describing call caveats, etc 18:00:45 source code is where truth lies 18:01:26 I agree that reading code with pages of docstrings in the middle isn't very nice 18:01:28 yeah, but docs like "This should be called after X is set up" or "within the scope of Y" belie things that aren't necessarily apparent from within the source 18:01:37 That's what C-c C-d f is for 18:02:14 antifuchs: object code is where the truth lies. 18:02:14 well, my docstrings are only a few lines long max. The rest is out in html files or something 18:02:24 If the function is long, you'd probably split the screen with C-c C-d f anyway 18:02:36 *rme* debugs ccl's ARM backend 18:02:48 yay ARM 18:03:08 the dumb old docstring-within-the-function coding style requires editor support to make it bearable (font-lock at the very least). So if you have editor support anyway, that editor might as well pull the docstring from somewhere else and draw it next to the code. 18:03:09 (where's my high-density ARM servers?) 18:03:34 total agreement, lichtblau (: 18:03:46 also, I would like emacs to make docstrings foldable (: 18:04:02 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:04:03 yep, I've always said that source code should not be a stream of characters, but more akin to AST editing 18:04:07 (but it struggles with opening parens on column 1, so not holding my breath (-:) 18:04:08 even if the keystrokes are the same 18:04:10 <- taking patches for any projects that use said dumb old style... 18:04:44 why is it that "Objects of type FUNCTION can't be dumped into fasl files"? Is there a standard way to store anon functions that are created at compile time? 18:04:47 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:05:06 yes, their source code is emitted into lambda or defun calls 18:05:22 *Phoodus* has gotten bitten by that way too often 18:05:42 don't use ,#' (-: 18:05:53 hrmm... ok, I just switched to a differnt compiler that was much faster, but emitted closures instead of compilable forms... thats kind of sad 18:05:54 bobbysmith007: no standard way. But you rarely have to do that. 18:05:56 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:04 I've even done horrible things like storing hashtables of functions at compile time to be accessed at runtime, meaning you can never load from .fasl but must compile & load 18:06:53 bobbysmith007: you can often get away with emitting load-time-value forms instead of creating objects at macroexpansion-time. 18:07:15 pkhuong: thanks for the advice, I think that will work for me 18:08:26 what is the proper channel for very lisp-specific emacs questions? 18:08:32 pkhuong: totally did it, thanks again for the pointer 18:08:37 asher9: emacslisp? 18:08:47 #emacs 18:08:49 gor[e] [~svr@gw1.masterhost.ru] has joined #lisp 18:08:49 asher9: or lisp written in emacs (slime?) 18:09:10 interaction between CL and emacs 18:09:26 asher9: more likely here (: 18:09:34 asher9: why don't you just ask? 18:09:42 if it's about slime specifically, this is where developers hang out 18:09:58 I might as well ask -- I notice emacs is smart enough to see the &body thing in a macro, so it knows to indent differently. Is there anyway to hook that into font-lock too? 18:10:25 *any way 18:10:28 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:10:35 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-165-72.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:10:40 the thing that looks into &body is a slime-specific indentation addition, IIRC. might look into adding a hook into that 18:10:57 so that user-defined macros have the same color as loop, when, etc 18:11:35 -!- pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:11:56 Alternatively, I could name every single macro as with-* :) 18:11:58 ooh. hm. might have to go through all symbols in all packages after meaningful interactions and give them font-lock meanings 18:12:18 carlocci [~nes@93.37.206.42] has joined #lisp 18:12:18 since with-* is colored as a macro 18:12:20 that reminds me; is it possible to have slime forget the lisp parameter indentation rules within a scope? I have a sexpr dsl that uses things like 'case', but I don't want case's indentation style 18:12:31 not sure if it requires a re-fontification, which could be expensive as well 18:13:09 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-165-72.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:13:16 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:13:45 cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has joined #lisp 18:13:45 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has quit [Changing host] 18:13:45 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 18:15:08 Modern boxes can draw a gazillion polygons, lay textures on them and manage swarms of particles in real time, but colouring text stresses them out... 18:15:33 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:15:44 only on OS X (: 18:15:46 splittist2: rather, displaying text-coloring progress in a messaging area (-: 18:16:39 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:16:45 you know what we need? an editor with a SIRDS display 18:19:05 I'd be happy with an editor that lets me see and edit all the methods of a GF in once place, unless I want to see all methods that specialise on a type... etc. 18:19:05 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-1-168.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:19:21 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:19:22 *splittist2* may have to switch to Dylan (: 18:19:46 splittist2: slime? 18:19:59 I thought there was a slime thing that lets you do this 18:20:04 but I'm not sure how it's activated 18:20:36 M-. on a GF. 18:20:44 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-1-168.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:07 opesn a buffer with the text of all the dms? or gives me a picklist? 18:21:10 enupten [~neptune@117.192.81.123] has joined #lisp 18:21:34 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 18:21:48 I get the picklist; I think there was something that gave you an editable delegate (or whatever it's called) buffer. hm. 18:21:49 Anyway, if I really want something I can't explain, all I have to do is implement it (: 18:21:50 picklist, and jumps the source buffer when you move point between choices 18:21:58 -!- enupten [~neptune@117.192.81.123] has left #lisp 18:21:58 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:22:27 splittist2: you'd want a buffer with each definition in a row, and edits would actually affect the right file/buffer? 18:23:05 I'd liket hat (: 18:23:26 pkhoung: yes. Scott McKay did something like that (and more general) for whatever the Dylan IDE/Editor was. It was a very popular feature, but he was never confident it actually worked (: 18:24:06 that sure would be nice to have. 18:24:10 I think it worked, it 18:24:27 that was one of the Next Things on my climacs to-do list, way back when 18:24:36 it's just that it could apparently be unsettling to use at times. 18:26:32 rme: "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents." 18:26:54 clay tablets containing million-year-old emacs buffers 18:27:14 inferior lisps, sleeping in submarine cities 18:27:50 Is there a way to macroexpand a second time? I can macroexpand once, copy to a buffer then do it again; repeat. Surely this has been automated by someone? 18:28:28 asher9: slime-macroexpand will let you slime-macroexpand inside the expansion 18:28:30 There's a slime thing to explore macroexpansion, I think. stassat might know (if he were online). 18:28:33 C-c RET 18:28:44 Yes that does it once 18:28:47 (macroexpand-1 (macroexpand-1 the-expression)) ? 18:28:59 then, in the buffer, navigate to the form you want to expand and hit C-c RET again 18:29:39 That's the problem -- nothing happens in that buffer 18:30:06 you have to be at the opening paren of the macro form. if it doesn't expand, maybe there's no macro there that is expandable? 18:31:21 I think macroexpand doesn't work for macrolet macros 18:31:36 ah excellent, I never knew that. I've always been expanding with point at the end of the sexp. Good to know, thanks. 18:31:50 I wonder why that macroexpand buffer is different, though 18:31:55 -!- tsuru [~charlie@adsl-74-179-198-44.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:32:12 yeah, I always expect the end to work, too... it's probably ambiguity-related (: 18:35:18 Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 18:36:06 pearle_ [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 18:36:10 -!- pearle_ is now known as pearle 18:36:47 xan_ [~xan@208.80.69.187] has joined #lisp 18:36:52 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:36:54 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:37:33 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:10 -!- billitch [~billitch@78.251.58.152] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:40:14 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:41:15 -!- Joreji [~thomas@91-243.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:41:58 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.202.190] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:42:54 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-154-120.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:43:04 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 18:43:15 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:43:59 -!- HG` [~HG@p5DC04E09.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:46:10 -!- asher9 [~asher@c-24-91-59-62.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:46:43 billitch [~billitch@78.251.46.251] has joined #lisp 18:47:57 Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.26.16] has joined #lisp 18:47:59 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:48:15 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:48:22 Hi all! 18:48:34 cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has joined #lisp 18:48:34 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has quit [Changing host] 18:48:34 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 18:48:54 -!- Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.26.16] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:49:11 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:28 hmm, it seems that cl-who is generating html with single-quoted attributes, even though i've set *ATTRIBUTE-QUOTE-CHAR* to #\" 18:51:38 if i generate some dummy html at the repl, i do indeed get double-quote-delimited attributes; but it would appear that when the html is generated dynamically (i'm running a hunchentoot server), the attributes are single-quoted 18:51:55 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:53:09 alama: how do you set that variable? 18:54:08 i've got a file server.lisp that sets up my server; inside my INITIALIZE-SERVER function, i call '(setf *attribute-quote-char* #\")' 18:54:16 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 18:54:23 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:54:29 this is in a package that uses cl-who 18:55:05 alama: I think it's too late by then. 18:55:36 Xach: hmm, where should it be set, then? in my asdf system definition, perhaps? 18:56:33 snearch [~snearch@f053005025.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:56:40 alama: maybe in a file early in your project's build, like package.lisp. 18:56:58 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:57:45 Xach: ok, thans 18:57:47 thanks 18:58:44 jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-74-73.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:59:31 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:01:19 amirhoshangi [~amir@95.38.52.69] has joined #lisp 19:01:47 leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has joined #lisp 19:01:56 -!- lujun_ [~lujun@180.172.36.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:02:59 -!- amirhoshangi [~amir@95.38.52.69] has left #lisp 19:06:43 Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:09:19 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:09:47 cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has joined #lisp 19:09:47 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has quit [Changing host] 19:09:47 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 19:10:38 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:51 -!- seangrove [~user@c-98-234-242-172.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:14:01 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 19:17:29 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:19:09 lichtblau: it would be nice if the cxml-stp documentation was in a subdirectory. 19:20:34 Also, how can the api documentation be built? there's a link to "pages/cxml-stp.html", but that doesn't seem to be part of the cxml-stp archive. 19:20:39 or buildable from it? 19:22:11 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:23:05 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:24:55 aha 19:26:22 -!- billitch [~billitch@78.251.46.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:26:22 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:26:23 *Xach* finds dist.lis 19:26:25 p 19:26:44 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 19:27:00 cxml-stp - the Nascar cxml 19:27:41 billitch [~billitch@78.250.213.81] has joined #lisp 19:27:42 is it not in a subdir? 19:27:55 lichtblau: index.xml is mixed in with the rest of the source at the top level. 19:28:04 tutorial/ is in its own directory. 19:28:52 dang, was looking at the wrong project's dist.sh 19:30:01 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@83.240.225.146] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 19:30:51 is quickdoc coming? 19:30:52 -!- timjstewart1 [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:31:16 urandom__ [~user@p548A45E1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:35 slowly and painfully 19:31:48 Well, I got a bunch of stuff really easily, which was encouraging. 19:32:01 Now I am running into stuff that requires manual intervention to build, which is a drag. 19:32:15 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:32:46 cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has joined #lisp 19:32:46 -!- billitch [~billitch@78.250.213.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:32:46 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has quit [Changing host] 19:32:46 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 19:33:05 What would be useful stuff to look at for understanding how to idiomatically work with the DOM? I'm beginning to suspect format and write-string are not the best way to generate xml... 19:33:10 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 19:33:38 I'd say that DOM is very idiomatic for HTML in a browser; not so much for XML. 19:33:50 Good to know. 19:35:10 s/work with the DOM/generate XML/ ? 19:35:24 how you'd write XML in the easiest way depends a lot on where you're getting the data from. So, what's the context? 19:35:42 wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-24-193-121-20.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:35:57 http://xach.com/tmp/qldocs/ has the result of scraping - please pardon the appearance, it's just a proof-of-concept, basically the result of "how much can I scrape in a few hours of hacking?" 19:35:58 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-154-120.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:36:58 My own set of objects representing a physical document into Word(processing)-ml. 19:37:16 (this is take 3) 19:37:33 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 19:37:47 blargh 19:38:20 how do i overcome the naming problems when using multiple packages? spell every function and symbol completely? 19:38:30 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-24-193-121-20.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 19:38:32 In cxml, at the lowest level, you take a SINK (a CLOS object, kind of like an XML output stream), and send SAX events (clos method calls) to it. Those are the same events that the parser also emits. 19:38:34 I.e.: (cxml:parse ... (cxml:make-*-sink)) is a trivial roundtrip. Emitting those events nested correctly manually is quite pesky though. 19:39:00 -!- pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:39:27 So on top of it there is other stuff. There is with-xml-output, with-element etc, which take care of the nesting and are relatively lispy. Also a bit verbose compared to other popular html serialization libs, but I kind of like it that way. 19:40:47 Things like STP (or the older DOM) have a serialization function that maps the STP object tree and sends events to a sink for you. 19:41:16 Landr: what naming problems did you have in mind? 19:41:49 actually, i'm not sure if it is a naming problem, hang on 19:43:09 -!- naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:43:17 lichtblau: thanks! 19:43:43 steevy [~steevy@95-89-223-125-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 19:43:54 -!- steevy [~steevy@95-89-223-125-dynip.superkabel.de] has left #lisp 19:43:54 problem solved, it was a mis-placed parameter prematurely ending a let :< 19:44:11 naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has joined #lisp 19:44:23 Then there are mad things, like merging two documents with overlapping namespace declarations (that actually mean different namespaces) into the same output, which are pretty tricky in any lib. 19:44:34 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:44:36 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 19:44:57 Xuriella (like any XSLT implementation) has special serialization stuff for that, but the magic is hidden well from the user. 19:46:03 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has joined #lisp 19:46:43 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:47:17 a slightly crazy example that starts with macro-ish WITH-ELEMENT and then suddenly switches APIs and also serializes an STP object tree into the middle would be: 19:47:18 (cxml:with-xml-output (cxml:make-string-sink) (cxml:with-element "outer" (cxml:with-output-sink (sink) (stp:serialize (stp:make-element "inner") sink)))) 19:47:36 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:51:09 lichtblau: OK (: 19:52:09 I should clean that up and blog it to escape the relentless pruning that's recently going on. 19:53:43 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:57 -!- Davsebamse [~davse@gate.ipvision.dk] has quit [Quit: Davsebamse] 19:55:21 spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-32-25.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:56:51 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-112-248.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:06 -!- spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-32-25.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 19:57:18 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host98-190-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:59:17 turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:02 -!- Areil [~user@113.172.38.77] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:01:25 kanen [~kanen@c-98-234-85-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:39 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:03:48 Xach: assigning #\" to CL-WHO:*ATTRIBUTE-QUOTE-CHAR* in my packages.lisp file (which gets loaded first in my system definition) did the trick -- thanks 20:04:18 super! 20:04:47 <|3b|> Xach: which file in cl-mongo were you failing to parse? 20:04:50 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-112-248.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:01 -!- Liera [~Liera@113.172.38.77] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:05:53 -!- spurvewt [~fess@194.158.198.113] has quit [Quit: ..] 20:06:54 -!- turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 20:06:56 clx-stp looks really nice, now that I actually have a real task to play with. Thanks lichtblau! 20:07:58 turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:05 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-112-248.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:08:06 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 20:10:17 *Landr* jubilates 20:10:21 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-74-73.iburst.co.za] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:10:21 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C744D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:10:33 it took me 5488 iterations, but i finally puzzled together something that work 20:10:33 s 20:11:24 i wonder at which point i leave the "just keep hitting it until it works" path and start going on the "i know what i'm doing" path 20:11:52 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 20:11:56 |3b|: README.md 20:12:11 <|3b|> Xach: the one in toplevel or the one under doc/ ? 20:12:19 *splittist2* quickloads cxml-stp, watches the dots fly by, gets a tingle up his leg... 20:12:50 should we call an ambulance? 20:13:29 antifuchs: or two doctors - I am getting excited about XML, after all... 20:13:37 oh wow 20:13:57 (two doctors because that's what you need, in some places, to certify someone insane) 20:15:38 <|3b|> nikodemus: any chance recent esrap changes broke :constant rules? (or changed the syntax?) 20:16:01 I was suspecting something like this (: 20:16:13 hankhero [~Adium@c213-89-201-154.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:17:09 hey, why my recursive function keep adding nil to its list ? http://pastebin.com/yYRJE9RF 20:18:23 |3b|: toplevel 20:18:40 morphism: it's hard to guess what you intend this function to do. 20:19:26 it will keep checking the file type for each atom in path-list 20:19:56 then cons the atom of path list into the list if it's valid 20:20:00 <|3b|> nikodemus: ah, looks like a typo (second option) changed to (second options) 20:20:48 pkhuong: I want to ask how to avoid adding nil into the list created by a recursive function ? 20:20:50 morphism: are you sure that you dont have nil in your path-list?, that could cause nil to be in the list 20:21:11 yep, bobbysmith007, It won't be any nil here 20:21:17 that question doesn't make sense. 20:21:20 -!- hankhero [~Adium@c213-89-201-154.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:21:28 <|3b|> Xach: ok, investigating 20:21:50 udzinari [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 20:22:24 <|3b|> Xach: i assume you are using master branch of 3bmd? 20:23:05 http://pastebin.com/qY0t7GTM 20:23:13 |3b|: yes 20:25:06 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 20:25:16 if I remove "1" in the filter-files function, it will give me a nil atom in the new list 20:25:21 how to avoid that ? 20:25:35 morphism: don't cons it in the new list. 20:26:04 if I move the condition clause above the cons 20:26:12 then it will always be nil 20:26:13 :| 20:26:25 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has left #lisp 20:27:17 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-112-248.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:23 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl21-92-71.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 20:29:01 Guest90646 [~David@rrcs-24-227-244-59.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:29:10 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-112-248.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:29:10 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 20:29:30 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:29:36 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053005025.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 20:29:42 morphism: take a step back and think. Programming usually isn't achieved by randomly modifying source until it works. 20:29:48 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Client Quit] 20:31:28 pkhuong :| 20:31:52 pkhuong, I don't randomly modify it 20:32:26 So who's doing the quickdoc iPhone and Android apps? 20:33:04 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:33:40 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 20:34:00 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@117.197.241.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:35:06 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl21-92-71.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:35:31 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:36:39 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:05 -!- lbc_ [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:38:56 HET2 [~diman@nat67.mia.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:39:43 I really want to put a condition check into my recursive function, but don't want it to add nil value when condition false, how can I do ? (please gimme a simple example ) 20:40:30 morphism: That sounds like homework. 20:40:38 Soulman1 [~knute@250.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:40:39 no 20:40:44 it doesn't 20:40:56 (if (predicate) (do-something) non-nil-value) ? 20:40:59 -!- pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has left #lisp 20:41:17 yep 20:41:25 oh, this is the paste from above still 20:41:29 anyway to return non-nil but nothing ? 20:41:33 yep yep 20:41:33 morphism: This is the wrong question, but have you looked at append? 20:41:35 :P 20:41:46 already 20:41:49 -!- kanen [~kanen@c-98-234-85-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ... out of here ...] 20:42:04 put your 'if' check where you currrently have your T 20:45:11 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:45:32 Phoodus: it will return nil instantly without any list 20:45:53 pkhuong: Of course it is, it's a perfectly valid methodology, Hammer-Oriented Programming(TM) 20:46:43 I think it's lacking some additional iterator ? 20:47:05 so if both check in cond are false, it won't jump in the recursive loop 20:47:06 :( 20:47:45 if in a single iteration you want to skip the current element, you should not create a cons cell for it 20:48:01 but still continue iterating 20:48:41 :-? 20:49:08 is #lispcafe still alive? 20:49:25 <|3b|> as alive as ever (= not very) 20:51:38 :D 20:51:47 morphism: in the paste, if the 'if' check fails, you're still creating a cons cell, with a nil car 20:51:48 Phoodus , thanks I solved 20:51:52 the 'if' should skip the cons 20:52:12 yes 20:52:32 I move the filter-files (Cdr path-list) ... into the false case 20:52:46 so it will continue without cons 20:52:48 :D 20:54:35 gio5660 [~gio5660@78.167.154.203] has joined #lisp 20:54:39 -!- gio5660 [~gio5660@78.167.154.203] has left #lisp 20:55:31 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:56:07 cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has joined #lisp 20:56:07 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has quit [Changing host] 20:56:07 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 20:56:34 -!- gor[e] [~svr@gw1.masterhost.ru] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:57:03 gor[e] [~svr@gw1.masterhost.ru] has joined #lisp 20:58:39 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 21:02:39 -!- ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:04:19 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:05:05 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:07:53 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:08:09 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:09:00 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:52 sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 21:10:51 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl21-92-71.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 21:14:00 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:16:40 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 21:17:42 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:19:13 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:20:53 -!- glidesurfer [~rosario@77-64-171-36.dynamic.primacom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:21:00 -!- brodo [~brodo@p5B0222BE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:21:33 ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 21:23:22 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 21:23:58 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:27:22 brodo [~brodo@p5B0230C0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:27 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:28:29 glidesurfer [~rosario@77-64-171-36.dynamic.primacom.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:08 -!- gor[e] [~svr@gw1.masterhost.ru] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:30:15 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:30:52 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:20 gor[e] [~svr@gw1.masterhost.ru] has joined #lisp 21:32:18 Geef [~Geef@249.Red-83-33-83.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:51 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:33:46 Quick question, is there any spreadsheet software that will let me manipulate the cells using Common Lisp? (or any other Lisp dialect) 21:33:52 -!- gor[e] [~svr@gw1.masterhost.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 21:34:08 gor[e] [~svr@gw1.masterhost.ru] has joined #lisp 21:34:17 joachifm [~joachim@85.17.232.145] has joined #lisp 21:34:20 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:34:38 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 21:37:22 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:37:56 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-24-18.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:39:04 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-150-156.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:42 -!- insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-77-176.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:40:47 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-165-72.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:41:19 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:42:36 Geef: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/SpreadSheet ? 21:43:42 splittist, thanks 21:44:16 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:45:27 <|3b|> is 'fons' on github anyone here? 21:46:13 *|3b|* isn't quite sure how cl-mongo README.md should look :/ 21:46:39 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:46:48 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7570a3.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:47:03 cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.139.98.69] has joined #lisp 21:47:08 :p 21:47:09 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:47:42 how can i output a list to a file without printing the parenthesis? 21:47:57 SpitfireWP_ [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 21:48:02 <|3b|> print the elements of the list instead of the list itself? 21:48:20 mapc 21:48:43 okies 21:48:55 <|3b|> format can iterate over lists too 21:49:14 how 21:49:43 <|3b|> ~{ 21:50:10 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:50:11 ahh 21:50:19 <|3b|> (format t "~{~a ~}" '(1 2 3)) for example, possibly combined with the conditional stuff to avoid the last space 21:51:18 thanks 21:52:14 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:52:51 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:53:22 -!- glidesurfer [~rosario@77-64-171-36.dynamic.primacom.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:54:36 Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:54:58 -!- unhygienix [~unhygieni@host86-135-59-30.range86-135.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: unhygienix] 21:55:33 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-112-248.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 21:55:51 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-112-248.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:16 Spitfire__ [~Spitfire@cpc17-aztw23-2-0-cust59.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:56:27 s|k|a [~s|k|a@89.108.134.183] has joined #lisp 21:56:35 anyone know of a good program that translates your lisp code to a form that inserts step debuger/(and maintains stack frames) arround code? 21:57:35 i have one but i am getting tired of writing/fixing it 21:58:09 -!- SpitfireWP_ [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:58:11 Why not just use the lisp system's debugger and stepper facilities? 21:58:24 -!- Spitfire__ [~Spitfire@cpc17-aztw23-2-0-cust59.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Changing host] 21:58:24 Spitfire__ [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 21:58:28 -!- Spitfire__ is now known as SpitfireWP 21:58:42 my typical reason.. the lisp interpretor i am using does not support that 21:59:02 -!- s|k|a [~s|k|a@89.108.134.183] has quit [Client Quit] 22:00:02 Which lisp interpreter are you using? 22:00:30 Cyc/LarKC 22:00:39 i hoping someone like ECL .. had a tranlitteration process they do for when they want code debuggable 22:00:51 translitteration^ 22:04:40 Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.26.16] has joined #lisp 22:05:59 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A45E1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:09:20 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:32 -!- leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:11:55 how do I apply a macro to a list ? 22:12:09 #'mymacro won't work 22:12:10 :( 22:13:12 you can't 22:13:46 rvirding [~chatzilla@h134n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 22:14:48 -!- derekv [~derekv@c-68-62-78-203.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 22:14:49 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:15:17 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:15:18 derekv [~derekv@c-68-62-78-203.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:54 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:14 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:21:29 morphism: WHEN do you want to do that? 22:21:59 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.18.87.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:24:23 -!- Guest90646 [~David@rrcs-24-227-244-59.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:24:44 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:25:13 <|3b|>

tags should be closed by

right? 22:25:38 <|3b|> or are they one of the ones HTML allows by itself 22:26:09 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:26:46 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:26:48 It's optional. 22:27:01 urandom__ [~user@p548A7D53.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:03 -!- Geef [~Geef@249.Red-83-33-83.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:27:17 <|3b|> hmm, where does the paragraph end if it isn't present? 22:27:37 macrocat [~marmalade@142.177.208.217] has joined #lisp 22:28:08 implicitly at the start of the next

tag? 22:29:08 -!- Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.26.16] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:29:10 Or at the next other tag that closes a

implicitly. 22:29:46 *|3b|* wonders if it is worth trying to handle that correctly while parsing markdown 22:30:35 <|3b|> any idea where i could find a list of those tags? 22:30:50 pjb, when I want to make defparameter to all global variables I want 22:31:41 MoALTz [~no@92.18.70.84] has joined #lisp 22:31:46 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:32:54 -!- kleppari_ [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:32:55 geez, html is ugly. 22:33:11 XHTML is not much better, but at least is has to be well formed. 22:33:35 So there're no question about implictly closed tags. 22:34:04 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:34:38

side effect happens immediatly so

would not have a side effect 22:35:28 <|3b|>

has the side effect of marking the end of a block of html started by

in markdown 22:35:40 _mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 22:35:41 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:35:46 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 22:35:47 <|3b|> (also semantic side effect of delimiting a paragraph in html) 22:36:55 -!- gor[e] [~svr@gw1.masterhost.ru] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:36:56 what about a
? 22:36:57 (semantically) 22:37:29 An error, iirc. 22:38:04 Which means ignored, practically speaking, I guess. 22:38:16 <|3b|> yeah, not sure you can put anything inside a BR tag, so not much extra meaning there 22:38:17 well

paragraph one

paragraph two

paragraph three

does make sense 22:39:08 Sure. It makes as much sense as

a

b

c

, since paragraphs can't nest -- so it's just a question of verbosity. 22:39:49 <|3b|> yeah, just harder to extract the meaning when they are implicit 22:40:20 nyef [~nyef@pool-64-222-131-96.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 22:40:25 Hello all. 22:40:27 <|3b|> well, implicit to more than just another

tag, i guess the not nesting makes it pretty obvious for that one 22:40:42 beach: Ping? 22:41:12 The problem is that you have to handle the latter case if you're dealing with html anyhow. 22:41:33 So there's not much point in restricting yourself to the first case. 22:41:42 <|3b|> 'latter case' as in no

? 22:41:43 beach: You seriously want me to consider getting rid of graphics contexts and map-window/unmap-window? 22:41:50 Yes. 22:41:55 <|3b|> yeah, that's pretty much what started the conversation :/ 22:42:10 If you're not dealing with html, on the other hand ... 22:42:15 *|3b|* has some markdown with unclosed

tags, and is trying to decide how i should parse them 22:42:27 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-190-145.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:45 Close them as late as possible. 22:42:49 <|3b|> strict reading of the markdown docs implies i should require them to be closed 22:43:18 <|3b|> 'as late as possible' doesn't work when i'm trying to delimit a chunk of html from enclosing markdown 22:43:36 i think you implitley close them the first time you are trying to close anything lese 22:43:41 nyef: I am here 22:43:46 else* 22:43:54 [and Good morning everyone!] 22:43:58 dmiles: Well, not things like italicism, etc. 22:44:21 <|3b|> leaning towards just accepting a bare

as beginning or end of a html block, in addition to a matched pair 22:44:23 nyef: graphics contexts create problems for us because of threads. 22:45:05 <|3b|> or maybe

followed by no

and another html block element 22:45:14 How so? 22:46:02 *nyef* notes that CLIM has mediums, WinAPI has Device Contexts, X11 has Graphics Contexts, and MacOS has GrafPorts, all serving the same basic function. 22:46:16 a b c

d e f .. not sure here if closing the

woulkd be bad 22:46:16 Geef [~Geef@249.Red-83-33-83.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:32 (before ) 22:46:38 nyef: You need a thread-safe LETF as I recall. 22:46:38 *nyef* puts his copy of Inside Macintosh Volume I back on the shelf. 22:46:38 Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:46:55 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:47:10 dmiles: That would be bad. 22:47:39 That seems... odd. 22:48:03 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:48:15 nyef: And sheets and mediums allways seem to come in pairs. Seems like another abstraction that complicates things. 22:48:20 I could more easily accept the idea that no two threads should attempt to draw on the same window. 22:48:32 -!- alama [~alama@n138232.science.ru.nl] has quit [Quit: alama] 22:48:38 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:48:53 You only need the medium for the duration of your drawing operations, permanently-assigned mediums are basically caches. 22:49:36 Paragraphs can't contain block level elements, so any block level element open or close must end a paragraph. 22:49:45 You can also have mediums that aren't associated with sheets, such as pixmap mediums. 22:49:59 http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#block-inline 22:50:15 No comment on the map-window / unmap-window thing? 22:50:19 rme_ [~rme@pool-70-104-123-166.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:51 nyef: Is it needed when you can just break the parent/child relationship? 22:50:55 -!- rme [rme@clozure-CE69A87B.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 22:50:57 -!- rme_ is now known as rme 22:51:16 nyef: I mean, what does it mean for a sheet to "actively participate" in this relationship? 22:51:25 [citing the spec from memory] 22:52:15 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:52:15 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-105-113-99.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:52:15 -!- rme_ is now known as rme 22:52:18 The problem is, when you break the parent/child relationship, you degraft the sheet, which destroys the mirror. 22:52:50 And there are things that need to be able to be done on a mirrored (grafted) sheet before it is made visible. 22:52:57 Like set window-manager properties, for example. 22:52:58 why can it not be re-created when the sheet becomes grafted again? 22:54:16 There's also the issue of me being able to point to the equivalent APIs for three different host windowing systems. 22:56:09 I am worried that features specific to certain display-servers and features that exist because they were needed for optimization reasons 30 years ago pass through to higher layers. I may be wrong of course. Just a worry. A medium could be replaced by a set of special variables for instance. 22:59:13 How much of a medium is necessary if all that is drawn is a picture? 22:59:40 *|3b|* might count optimizing for low-resolution displays, or limiting things to integral non-rotated coordinate systems in that category 22:59:41 compmstr [~compmstr@adsl-074-185-008-197.sip.clt.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:27 <|3b|> not that OS vendors haven't propagated those 30 year old problems into the current decade :( 23:00:32 |3b|: Unfortunately, it looks like low-resolution displays are going to be with us for some time still. 23:01:06 *|3b|* was happy to at least see apple may have finally gotten over 100dpi 23:01:19 Okay, additional data point: According to the Mac OS X Developer Library, Cocoa still uses graphics contexts. 23:02:03 That's a far more recent data point than the three host window systems that I've been treating as archetypal. 23:02:28 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:39 Hell, the canvas tag still uses graphics contexts, effectively. 23:03:03 I don't see that idea going away. 23:03:16 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:03:36 So, mediums stay: Even modern systems still use them. 23:03:58 And sheet-enabled stays: I need it, even if you don't think you do. 23:05:04 <|3b|> hmm, nice... github only seems to parse things that way in some places, not others :/ 23:06:35 -!- HET2 [~diman@nat67.mia.three.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:07:28 *|3b|* will just not worry about the problem for now, and let cl-mongo docs render wrong 23:07:43 HET2 [~diman@nat67.mia.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:08:07 -!- compmstr [~compmstr@adsl-074-185-008-197.sip.clt.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:09:04 -!- rme [rme@clozure-2AEA5C71.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 23:09:10 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h134n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 23:09:11 -!- joachifm [~joachim@85.17.232.145] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:10:40 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-104-123-166.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:12:30 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 23:12:40 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:13:05 -!- cmm [~cmm@79.183.205.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:13:36 -!- Aiwass [~Aiwass4@79.115.164.7] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:13:44 -!- sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:13:49 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:23 Aiwass [~Aiwass4@79.115.164.7] has joined #lisp 23:14:42 amb007 [~a_bakic@97.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 23:16:09 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:16:38 -!- Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:16:58 rme [~rme@pool-70-105-87-115.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:17:51 -!- rotty [~rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:18:59 rotty [~rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #lisp 23:23:40 -!- tcr [~tcr@host187.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:24:16 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:24:35 cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has joined #lisp 23:24:35 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has quit [Changing host] 23:24:35 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 23:25:38 cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:26:16 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.157.50] has joined #lisp 23:27:51 -!- benny [~benny@i577A855F.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:28:05 sykopomp [~sykopomp@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:27 -!- symbole [~user@50-56-28-56.static.cloud-ips.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:30:07 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-49-189.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 23:31:40 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-49-189.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Client Quit] 23:31:44 *|3b|* wonders how many http status codes github has little 3d messages for, just got a 500 with the octocat thing falling off a cliff roadrunner cartoon style 23:33:34 <|3b|> (apparently from hitting 'y' on a new pull request page) 23:35:10 huangho [~vitor@201-35-78-178.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 23:35:18 -!- Soulman1 [~knute@250.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 23:35:21 I seem to have a difficulty with cffi. The function xcb_setup_roots_iterator returns a xcb_screen_iterator_t structure. It is declared as (cffi:defcfun ("xcb_setup_roots_iterator" xcb_setup_roots_iterator) xcb_screen_iterator_t(R :pointer)) by swig. So when I call it, instead of getting a "structure", I get the content of the structure as a pointer of to the structure (which is not), and mayhem ensure. 23:36:04 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.157.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:36:05 <|3b|> don't think cffi handles actual structs by itself 23:36:24 Is there a way to declare this function? 23:36:44 <|3b|> you can either pretend it is some other data type like an int if it fits and extract the pieces, or i think there is another lib, something like fsbv that adds it 23:36:55 It's bigger than an int. 23:37:02 a pointer and two integers. 23:37:03 <|3b|> http://repo.or.cz/w/fsbv.git seems to be it 23:37:23 Let's have a look at it... 23:38:18 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-142-146.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:38:43 -!- setmeaway [setmeaway3@119.201.52.252] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:38:59 setmeaway [setmeaway3@119.201.52.252] has joined #lisp 23:39:03 -!- setmeaway [setmeaway3@119.201.52.252] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:39:07 Why isn't it integrated into cffi? 23:39:20 <|3b|> probably the part about needing an external lib 23:39:31 Yes, that could explain it. 23:39:34 *|3b|* doesn't know if there is an official reason though 23:39:37 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:40:29 setmeaway [setmeaway3@119.201.52.252] has joined #lisp 23:40:36 <|3b|> https://bugs.launchpad.net/cffi/+bug/622247 seems to be official response 23:47:33 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 23:48:03 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483B458.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:49:08 benny [~benny@i577A85B9.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 23:49:29 That works much better with fsbv. Thanks. 23:50:03 -!- basho__ [~basho__@dslb-092-076-093-127.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:50:51 gor[e] [~svr@gw1.masterhost.ru] has joined #lisp 23:50:51 -!- gor[e] [~svr@gw1.masterhost.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 23:52:33 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:53:40 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:54:01 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-77.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:57:55 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 23:58:59 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp