00:00:56 -!- Joreji [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 263 seconds] 00:03:12 ok, it's 2.014.9: Hopefully fix incompatibilities introduced in 2.014.8 as reported by Xach, notably affecting CFFI and all who depend on it. Try to make find-system more robust along the way. 00:03:21 Xach: it's all because of you! 00:03:29 sure, blame the asdf victim 00:04:35 Mococa [~Mococa@177.16.239.194] has joined #lisp 00:04:42 -!- jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.56] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:06:15 xinming [~hyy@122.238.76.34] has joined #lisp 00:08:15 zerogeedawg [~brian@c-71-202-139-217.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:28 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@177.16.239.194] has quit [Client Quit] 00:08:40 Mococa [~Mococa@177.16.239.194] has joined #lisp 00:09:16 -!- Bahman [~bahman@2.146.17.231] has quit [Quit: Farewell] 00:12:32 -!- alph_cent [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:12:42 stassats: you maintain asdf? 00:12:58 do i look like i do? 00:12:59 madnificent: he wouldn't dare 00:13:03 :D 00:13:09 LoL that was fast 00:13:45 Deathaholic [~Mococa@177.16.239.194] has joined #lisp 00:13:51 sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:14:00 Fare deserves amazing respect for taking on ASDF maintenance when he already had XCVB to deal with. 00:14:15 -!- Landr [~user@78-21-55-79.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:14:20 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@177.16.239.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:14:28 I should thank fare some time when he's online 00:14:48 Should I try Lisp? 00:14:59 zerogeedawg: definitely! 00:15:06 okay 00:15:13 zerogeedawg: in case you're wondering, that question must be answered "yes" (: 00:15:28 just like any other question about whether you should try anything that isn't bad for you (: 00:15:29 Im a python person but I am learning C (which is harder) 00:15:53 evrything is in parenthesis right? 00:15:54 :) 00:16:10 zerogeedawg: are you interested in assembler or in programming? assembler <- take C , programming <- take lisp 00:16:12 they're punctuation in code 00:16:38 well I should get started 00:16:49 definitely 00:16:54 Im on a mac 00:16:56 check out Practical Common Lisp 00:17:07 how would it work (interpreted or compiled?) 00:17:12 both! 00:17:16 I konw 00:17:19 http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 00:17:21 neither! (that question is meaningless) (: 00:17:41 nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has joined #lisp 00:17:41 -!- nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has quit [Changing host] 00:17:41 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 00:17:44 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:17:45 lisp implementations give you a compiler, but it works inside the interactive environment 00:18:06 so it's not like you're calling gcc and running your executable; but it's still going to be plenty fast (: 00:18:48 zerogeedawg: I'm on a boat! 00:18:54 really? 00:19:52 okay 00:19:57 i see where the bug lies 00:20:05 yay stassats! 00:20:09 zerogeedawg: no, but you reminded me of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8F3UE9qFsg :D 00:20:41 -!- alfa_y_omega_ [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:22:35 fe[nl]ix: some strange parody on friday? 00:22:47 yeah 00:22:50 -!- zerogeedawg [~brian@c-71-202-139-217.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:23:29 zerogeedawg [~brian@c-71-202-139-217.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:23:53 Sorry, it quit 00:24:08 longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has joined #lisp 00:24:20 drdo``` [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 00:25:55 -!- drdo`` [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:25:59 -!- xinming [~hyy@122.238.76.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:26:02 and i see at least one way to fix it, though i'm not sure it's the right one 00:26:05 alfa_y_omega_ [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #lisp 00:26:14 ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has joined #lisp 00:27:00 Harag [~Harag@dsl-243-0-188.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 00:27:06 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:30:56 how do you make a basic printing program? 00:30:57 1 y 2 00:31:09 (format t "Hello world") 00:31:23 zerogeedawg: (print "reading a book will answer these questions") 00:31:41 or just "Hello world", which will return the string 00:31:55 Ashlebede [~opera@bas1-montrealak-1128581314.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:32:22 :) 00:32:24 cool 00:33:02 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-152-142-2.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 00:33:35 peterhil` [~peterhil@a91-152-135-21.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 00:33:36 Can anyone help me review my code ? 00:33:41 sure 00:33:47 This is my first Lisp program, except for Project Euler stuff. u_u 00:33:49 Ashlebede: cute, but that's memoisation, not lazy evaluation. 00:33:50 http://paste.lisp.org/display/121745 00:33:56 D: 00:34:06 oh crap, my browser ate my bug report 00:34:13 *stassats* is extremely unhappy 00:34:31 phua [~phua@adsl-99-63-93-4.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:54 and launchpad uses some ajaxy magic so that back button doesn't bring it back 00:34:58 aight, so except for the failish name, it's okay ? D: 00:35:13 that sucks. When I spend a long time on a web form, I tend to copy/paste into a notepad and edit there just in case 00:35:46 well, when i write it the second time, it usually turns out better 00:35:52 heh 00:35:55 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:36:07 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:36:12 -!- Geef [~Geef@249.Red-83-33-83.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Error: Out of Cheese] 00:36:37 Ashlebede: what happens if I'm only interested in a few values, say around 1 billion? That's even worse when there are multiple arguments. (never mind non-integer arguments) 00:37:53 if you're interested in only a couple values around 1billion, um... don't use it ? :D 00:37:55 What about multiple return values or RETURN-FROM? 00:37:56 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 00:38:18 didn't think of non-integer args, though... D: 00:38:54 snap. T_T 00:39:32 Norvig's memoization used a hash table of the whole arglist. 00:39:32 "Your browser sent a request that this server could not understand." oh snap, i guess i'll use another browser (this time i wrote it in emacs) 00:40:10 building a list to iterate over it seems lossy; you could also generate the unrolled code directly. 00:41:19 adjust-array takes a list as an argument, though... D: 00:41:30 a'ight, here's the report https://bugs.launchpad.net/asdf/+bug/776808 , for anyone interested 00:41:34 Also, even for nice usage patterns (e.g. calling and storing (f 0), (f 1), ... (f 100)), you end up growing the backing array at each call. You probably want to grow geometrically, at least. 00:41:58 what happens when the function evaluates to nil? 00:42:03 stassats: nice linebreaks ;) 00:42:38 *stassats* blames asdf for not being asleep 00:43:00 Phoodus: oh well, that's what M-x fill-paragraph did 00:43:03 -!- Triplefault_ [~Mouse@adsl-72-145-215-164.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:43:46 when the function evaluates to nil... you mean the defun, or the &rest argument ? 00:43:59 -!- zerogeedawg [~brian@c-71-202-139-217.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: zerogeedawg] 00:44:12 the defun. 00:44:36 actually, it's what fill-paragraph and launchpad itself did, it looks better in my buffer 00:44:59 What cause defun's to evaluate to nil ? :o 00:45:15 Ashlebede: any predicate that wants to return false, for instance. 00:45:42 m'kay 00:45:51 if your function is named NIL, but you're not allowed to name your function CL:NIL 00:46:05 (deflazy primep (n) ...), for instance. 00:46:14 so, DEFUN should never evaluate to CL:NIL 00:46:35 Also, style-wise you might have noticed that macros have &body arguments, which is equivalent to &rest; that's meant to be used in macros where the rest of the arguments are a list of forms, like an implicit progn. 00:47:06 but (deflazy foo () nil) (foo) does return nil... 00:47:21 afaik, the only difference between &rest and &body is how emacs indents its usage? 00:47:35 yes 00:47:39 Something like deflazy could be (defmacro deflazy (name (&rest arguments) &body contents) ...). That'll help IDEs autoindent nicer. 00:48:18 *Phoodus* changed his (sym-if var true-clause false-clause) to (sym-if var &body true-and-false-clauses) just for better indentation :-P 00:48:21 speaking of which, not everyone likes the indentation used on IFs. 00:48:31 erm (sym-if var expr ...) 00:48:42 argiopeweb [~elliot@59.74.91.184.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:49:56 Ashlebede: Again, a test for primality would take a single (non-negative) integer as argument, and return a boolean value, so either NIL or something else. How can you tell the difference between an uninitialised array element and one that's been set to NIL? 00:50:28 ... I can't. D: 00:50:36 Should I use a hash-table, then ? 00:51:19 would allow other types of arguments, too. u_u 00:51:49 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.138.141] has joined #lisp 00:51:53 D: 00:52:31 Norvig's PAIP has pretty classic implementations of memoisation and lazy (delayed) evaluation, and it's available at . 00:54:14 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h134n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.17/20110420140830]] 00:54:54 (fill (copy-seq args) 1) is shorter than (make-list (length args) :initial-element 1) 00:55:30 (map 'list (constantly 1) args) ;) 00:55:45 or mapcar even 00:56:16 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 00:56:23 zerogeedawg [~brian@c-71-202-139-217.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:56:26 woooo! 00:56:29 lisp rocks! 00:56:45 (* 5 11 (+ 5 4)) 00:57:31 markskil1eck [~mark@host86-136-233-87.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 00:57:53 or (substitute 1 1 args :test-not #'eql) 00:58:50 enupten [~neptune@117.192.64.201] has joined #lisp 00:59:40 zerogeedawg: (* 5 11 (+ 5 (if (> 1 2) 3 4))) 00:59:57 Phoodus: yeah, things like that make me smile :) 00:59:59 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 01:00:03 sure 01:00:11 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:00:19 Phoodus: check this out, lisp is so concise, you can write this as 495 01:00:39 but then you won't get the code elimination notes 01:01:13 zerogeedawg: you can put entire bodies with loops, local variables, functions, etc all inside an expression like that. It's nifty keen 01:01:26 it's how it should be 01:01:33 pkhuong 01:01:35 how do I tke input? 01:01:37 lisp is what you get when you realize that forth is backwards ;) 01:01:44 (read) is the easiest way 01:01:52 For my hashtable, could I use an unlikely default value to detect NIL's ? 01:02:04 ummmmmm, example please? 01:02:04 Y-OR-N-P for binary input 01:02:06 you could use the multiple return values of gethash instead. 01:02:07 nevermind. >_> 01:02:14 just noticed 01:02:20 zerogeedawg: (+ 3 (read)), hit enter, type in a number, hit enter 01:02:34 Otherwise, you can use lexical scoping and object identity to have unforgeable nonces. 01:02:37 k 01:02:40 why +3? 01:02:45 why not? 01:02:50 just to show it inside an expression 01:02:56 oh okay 01:03:14 necroforest [~jarred@pool-96-249-147-66.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:15 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:32 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:03:37 The function (COMMON-LISP:SETF COMMON-LISP:LIST) is undefined. 01:03:55 that's right, it isn't 01:04:11 My code looks like: (let ((x '(1 2)) (if some-condition (setf x '(3 4)))) 01:04:16 zarus [~zarus@129.89.198.245] has joined #lisp 01:04:25 are you sure? 01:04:27 Does anyone know where I could get help on general AI homework? 01:04:29 Phoodus: that could make your construction be like (* 5 11 (+ 5 (if (y-or-n-p) 3 4))) 01:04:33 I don't know the numbers of anyone from class. 01:04:41 It's theoretical, not programming. 01:05:00 #ai? 01:05:15 Whoa thanks. 01:05:25 I feel distinctly au. 01:05:26 Or nu. 01:05:28 (+ (/ (* 5 (+ 3 3)) 2) 1 1) 01:05:51 stassats: yes, i'm sure. all of my setf's are of the form (setf variable value) 01:05:53 zerogeedawg: (let ((a (read)) (* a (+ a 3))) 01:06:04 necroforest: double check it 01:06:27 (setf best-move m) 01:06:38 maybe you missed a variable, or misplaced paranthesis 01:06:46 necroforest: you wouldn't happen to be using symbol-macros would you? 01:06:55 or your variable is not a variable, but a symbol-macros expanding to LIST call 01:06:57 no 01:07:10 i didnt even know there were symbol macros :-P 01:07:58 or paste your code, if you can't find it 01:08:15 sbahra_ [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:08:17 oh, you know, it might not be that setf 01:08:26 it's 99% a syntactical error that you're just not seeing due to familiarity 01:08:30 i have a push somewhere, which i think is a macro that expands to a setf 01:08:36 yes 01:08:47 push's arguments are backwards from how setf takes them 01:08:54 That PAIP code is pre-ASDF? 01:08:54 nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has joined #lisp 01:08:54 -!- nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has quit [Changing host] 01:08:54 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 01:09:00 yes 01:09:00 Bike: yes. 01:09:17 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:09:17 -!- sbahra_ is now known as sbahra 01:09:18 -!- Bike [~arm_of_th@71-38-158-155.ptld.qwest.net] has left #lisp 01:09:31 ohhh, let me check that out 01:09:37 Bike [~arm_of_th@71-38-158-155.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:09:57 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:09:58 Guess I should have been clued in by him mentioning he ran his examples on an Explorer. 01:10:14 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483D9D5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:10:19 katesmith [~katesmith@97-89-229-3.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:10:19 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@97-89-229-3.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 01:10:19 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 01:10:34 gtg 01:10:38 -!- zerogeedawg [~brian@c-71-202-139-217.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: zerogeedawg] 01:11:25 asdf should work at least on genera 01:11:33 (why?) 01:12:00 is it ethical to use a list as an index in a hashtable ? 01:12:21 I don't do ethics when coding. 01:12:30 :D 01:13:13 *sykopomp* has seen (remote-host . remote-port) used as hash table keys for more than one server. 01:14:27 does Fare really test asdf on genera? 01:15:12 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.213.61] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 01:15:33 Ashlebede: Make sure you do :test #'equal though. 01:15:59 if you need equal, of course 01:16:11 Don't you, for lists? 01:16:16 no 01:16:27 -!- ejohnson [~elliott@elliottjohnson.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:17:03 (eql '(1 2 3) '(1 2 3)) => NIL 01:17:13 So yes, I assume it's better to use #'equal. D: 01:17:23 (let ((list '(1 2 3))) (eql list list)) => T 01:17:34 if it's the same instance 01:17:46 but but but... I need to test every element 01:18:04 Therefore, I need it, which... 01:18:06 Well, yeah, if they're the same list, but the arglist will be freshly allocated, won't it? Or it could be at least. 01:18:08 <== shoot me 01:18:19 elliottjohnson [~elliott@elliottjohnson.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:46 "freshly allocated" ? D: 01:18:57 Bike: i wasn't talking about a particular problem 01:19:05 Oh. Then yeah, you're right. 01:19:24 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sbahra] 01:19:26 Ashlebede: Different calls to cons get you different conses, but the same call gets you the same, as in stassats' example 01:19:36 you don't actually want equal, but a slightly weaker version of it, most likely. Whether it makes a difference depends on your usage. 01:20:16 "slightly weaker", as in equalp ? 01:20:41 no, as in EQL on the list's elements, without recursing deeper. 01:21:09 also, if you compile (eql '(1 2 3) '(1 2 3)) on sbcl, it will return T 01:21:35 -!- compmstr [~compmstr@adsl-074-185-008-197.sip.clt.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:22:08 "without recursing deeper", how would you do that ? 01:22:21 D: 01:22:21 you can't with standard hash-tables 01:23:44 if not talking about hash-tables, then you can do (every #'eql '(1 2 3) '(1 2 3)) 01:23:53 Landr [~user@78-21-55-79.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 01:24:05 though, it won't check for length 01:24:48 Mococa [~Mococa@177.16.239.194] has joined #lisp 01:25:10 -!- enupten [~neptune@117.192.64.201] has quit [Quit: quitting...] 01:27:03 -!- Evious [~n_a@s64-180-62-209.bc.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:27:54 -!- Deathaholic [~Mococa@177.16.239.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 249 seconds] 01:29:36 Does this look better ? http://paste.lisp.org/display/121746 01:31:13 You want to use gensym or some symbol that's unlikely to conflict when introducing new things in scope (in this case, a hash table). 01:31:24 contents is a bad name, use body instead 01:32:21 One way around that is to instead expand into something like (flet ((name (arguments...) body...)) (let ((memo-table (load-time-value (make-hash-table ...)))) ...)) 01:32:33 and you have too much comments 01:32:50 lol 01:32:56 you cons up the argument list twice. 01:33:13 like "; if it exists, return the value from the hashtable", it's obvious what it does without this comment 01:33:24 (using FLET, or at least BLOCK instead of PROGN gets the implicit block in defun bodies right) 01:33:46 m'kay 01:35:17 i like using LOAD-TIME-VALUE instead of closures, because it preserves top-levelness 01:36:06 stassats: load-time-value is rather advanced, no? 01:36:20 no 01:36:21 otherwise, you can go with defparameter, which is also easier to introspect and debug with than closures or l-t-v. 01:37:17 how could I use gensym to generate a symbol for this ? 01:37:26 I mean, I'll need to store that symbol in a variable, anyways... 01:37:27 madnificent: at least not more advanced than closures 01:37:41 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@pool-68-161-86-229.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:38:01 stassats: closures are more common. They are simpler to understand when coming from another language, in comparison to l-t-v 01:38:05 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: \o/] 01:38:23 madnificent: more languages have static or common variables than closures. 01:38:29 stassats: though in principle, it's indeed not more complicated 01:38:53 pkhuong: but they don't have an accessible load-time making that explicit 01:39:24 all you need to know that it's evaluated once at the time of loading 01:39:53 -!- saterus [~saterus@opensource.cse.ohio-state.edu] has left #lisp 01:40:43 Ah, man. L-T-V. Plenty of fun games there... Especially if you tell the compiler that the value is read-only when it isn't. >:-) 01:41:08 I think lisp is the only language I know that allows me to explicitly evaluate statements at load-time... In other languages one is assumed to know the result, but the time at which something happens is mostly irrelevant 01:41:12 (Can save a value-cell indirection in some cases in SBCL, if you can get away with it.) 01:42:21 madnificent: is it bad or good? 01:43:02 is C preprocessor specified to run before compiling? 01:43:24 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 01:43:30 stassats: I find it to be very good! 01:43:33 Ashlebede: (defmacro foo (param) (let ((p (gensym))) `(let ((,p ,param)) ... ,p))) 01:43:48 that lets you use ,p inside your macro expansion, and param is only evaluated once 01:43:59 madnificent: but it certainly confuses young souls 01:44:01 I think there are macros in Alexandria or somewhere that make that even easier 01:44:04 stassats: but that makes me think that l-t-v is more advanced than a closure 01:44:15 dnolen [~davidnole@pool-68-161-92-98.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:44:34 well, if you know that load-time happens before run-time, you're good 01:44:36 stassats: multiple inheritance is complicating as well. Metaclasses even more so. But that doesn't make them bad 01:44:51 s/complicating/complicated/ 01:45:20 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@177.16.239.194] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:45:27 Mococa [~Mococa@177.16.239.194] has joined #lisp 01:45:35 stassats: are you implying that you'd like to have a subset of lisp so it's easier to learn? 01:45:37 it's hard to know when enough is enough 01:46:08 cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:240:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has joined #lisp 01:46:20 madnificent: i don't know, i'm already comfortable with all parts, so i'm not eligible to answer this question 01:46:37 you help people, would that make _your_ life easier? 01:46:44 -!- macrocat [~marmalade@142.177.213.148] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:47:19 i help people _because_ it makes my life easier 01:47:26 mxd [18179117@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.23.145.23] has joined #lisp 01:47:48 nice one. The same question still holds though 01:47:53 answering all the questions keeps you sharp 01:48:36 so I guess a limited lisp would be suboptimal for you 01:49:27 i think, yes, but it's a general question not limited to lisp 01:49:48 I personally think that it could be a good thing to have a more limited set of features. I think it would be good if it were possible to split the language into levels. Each level makes you more expressible. But it'd be nothing more than a learning tool 01:49:55 ROI and so on 01:50:06 pnq [~nick@ACA2CF95.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 01:50:20 xinming [~hyy@115.221.14.226] has joined #lisp 01:51:22 madnificent: i don't that's useful, even if you use only some subset of CL you still need to know pretty much all other parts if you want to interact with other code 01:51:28 don't think 01:52:12 that's true. However, it would allow users to write some code, knowing that what they know so far is a consistent set. They'd also have a vague idea of what is coming in the future. 01:52:15 so, if you want to be isolated, you can go as crazy as you want 01:52:17 -!- Blkt [~Blkt@dynamic-adsl-94-34-25-159.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:53:35 I wouldn't have grasped load-time-value when I first started learning lisp. It took me some coding to get acquainted with the language. However, some hideous libraries later, I can easily grasp it. If there'd have been levels, I wouldn't have learned about m-v-c just now :) 01:54:00 that's true in practice, people are able to write suboptimal code which works, save for someone on #lisp rewriting in two built-in function-calls 01:54:07 xan_ [~xan@x2.core.archive.org] has joined #lisp 01:54:49 and still that suboptimal code needed to be there. If only as an educational tool... 01:54:53 well, see you 'round, folks. 01:55:02 see you Ashlebede 01:55:03 -!- Ashlebede [~opera@bas1-montrealak-1128581314.dsl.bell.ca] has left #lisp 01:55:06 stassats: you bringing up my redefining equalp? :) 01:55:11 zerogeedawg [~brian@c-71-202-139-217.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:55:22 basic lisp program: 01:55:33 (print "Hello World!\n") 01:56:28 i don't think \n does what you think it does 01:56:40 or the print 01:57:08 zerogeedawg: (format T "Hello World!~%") is what you want, I guess" 01:57:29 It doesnt? 01:57:32 (write-line "Hello, World") 01:57:42 or print 01:57:49 http://www.parkscomputing.com/lisptest.html 01:58:08 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:58:32 "levels" of language make more sense in PaaS setting where you don't expect clients to become proficient with CL 01:59:07 zerogeedawg: that's not common lisp 01:59:17 it works 01:59:20 it doesnt 01:59:29 oops, It is not? 02:00:18 "Lisp" is a family of languages, vaguely defined depending on who you ask 02:00:22 p_l|backup: it could be used like that as well. I'd personally have used it to check up on what I didn't know yet. 02:00:38 p_l|backup: would it be bad if it were used in the a PaaS setting? 02:01:08 if something has first-class functions, can evaluate lists as code, has cons cells, etc, it's basically a Lisp even if it's not Common Lisp compatible 02:01:45 true true 02:01:54 (defun Add(a b)) 02:01:54 (setq c (+ a b)) 02:01:54 (print c) 02:01:54 (Add (5 8)) 02:02:04 'print' isnt lisp but is common lisp right? 02:02:11 the default lisp reader is case-insensitive btw 02:02:17 when it comes to symbols 02:02:20 I guess, but it gives NaN 02:02:56 zerogeedawg: you need to go through PCL thoroughly 02:03:07 PCL? 02:03:07 you've got a lot of basic syntactic issues that it will walk you through 02:03:23 zerogeedawg: http://gigamonkeys.com/book 02:03:25 -!- argiopeweb [~elliot@59.74.91.184.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:03:33 doc_who: what is lisp? 02:03:34 oh 02:03:43 -!- naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:03:47 oh, I thought you were linked to that book a while ago 02:03:51 must have been somebody else 02:03:55 Feel free to ask questions once you've actually read a about how Common Lisp works. 02:04:05 doc: Lisp is a family of languages, so your question doesn't make much sense. 02:04:12 what is lisp? baby don't cons me, don't cons me, no more 02:04:27 lol 02:04:33 Phoodus: that's tweet-worthy, I think. 02:04:39 youre right 02:04:58 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@a91-152-135-21.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:05:12 i guess im thinking just the very pure , seven (eight?) axiom JMC original version 02:05:28 even that wasn't standardized 02:05:28 why? 02:05:41 doc_who: does it matter? 02:05:55 doc: Read the code. 02:06:18 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@pool-68-161-92-98.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:06:27 Zhivago: for the paper? 02:07:00 stassats: not to me personally but Phoodus is being very semantic about what "Lisp" is 02:07:17 I just threw out some common examples 02:07:35 doc: The code is available for the original. 02:08:18 you really can't say "This function is not Lisp, but is CL", because Lisp doesn't really define a stdlib at all 02:08:19 Zhivago: ill get to it 02:08:27 im just a beginner in lisp 02:08:49 working through touretsky's and paip 02:08:51 there's nothing about print that violates being part of a Lisp 02:09:20 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:09:20 -!- Borbus [borbus@borbus.kicks-ass.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:09:40 -!- zerogeedawg [~brian@c-71-202-139-217.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: zerogeedawg] 02:10:05 -!- herbieB [~herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:10:07 actually, if lisp is defined has having a REPL, then "Print" is part of that process, so you may be onto something ;) 02:10:37 hmm, finding a lost screen process with 60 days idle time. 02:10:43 is lisp defined that way? 02:11:02 I make no claims as to what specifically defines "Lisp" 02:11:18 -!- rabite [~rabite@4chan.fm] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:11:20 I only stick to the vague & nebulous for that :) 02:11:23 rabite [~rabite@4chan.fm] has joined #lisp 02:11:30 you can start with exclusion, is C a lisp? 02:11:34 the so-called hypothetical imperatives 02:11:38 herbieB [~herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has joined #lisp 02:11:58 I think that a lisp requires GC, so no 02:12:03 m4dnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 02:12:08 CL doesn't require a GC 02:12:08 Borbus [borbus@borbus.kicks-ass.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:11 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:12:11 but again, all answers will be prefaced by an IMO disclaimer 02:12:51 and you can use C with a GC 02:12:53 C cannot evaluate lists of elements as executable code, so I'd say that's another strike against it 02:12:53 dnolen [~davidnole@pool-68-161-93-24.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:59 -!- m4dnificent is now known as madnificent 02:13:16 Phoodus: almost all the C I know can do that with arrays, though. 02:13:25 though obviously you can add library features to any turing-complete language to do such things 02:13:28 (actually, linked lists might be doable as well) 02:13:31 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 02:13:33 *stassats* smells the turing tarpit 02:14:12 -!- simontwo_ [~simon@78.129.201.122] has quit [Quit: If there's one thing you can say about mankind, there's nothing kind about man.] 02:14:47 C is not homoiconic 02:14:55 to be a bit more specific about the eval claim 02:15:21 c source code is a string 02:15:37 though one can argue, especially with M-expressions, if Lisp requires homoiconicity 02:16:05 c source files are not wrapped in doublequotes 02:16:06 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-190-145.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 02:19:12 Phoodus: That also raises the question "is Dylan a Lisp?" 02:19:26 *Phoodus* isn't familiar with dylan 02:19:31 Phoodus: homoiconicity != lisp 02:19:34 Of course, the only Dylan manual I have is from before they changed their syntax. 02:19:45 So it's s-expressions everywhere. 02:19:50 its part of lisps design that makes it homoiconic 02:19:51 has anyone with sufficient authority ever defined what a lisp really is? 02:20:05 even if it used m-expressions itd be homoiconic i think 02:20:29 for all I can say, without a definition, it's probably a descendent of one of the original LISP versions 02:20:33 There's probably an issue that everyone would would have the authority don't care. 02:20:40 using []'s vs ()'s doesnt change that its all lists 02:21:06 i see no need in defining what Lisp is 02:21:06 pkhuong: I think you're right. I also think that they're right 02:21:14 doc_who: in prolog, there's a clear distinction between predicates and terms, which is similar to mexpr vs sexpr technically 02:21:18 i know what's CL, and what's Scheme 02:21:34 prolog's homoiconic too iirc 02:21:39 arquebus [~arquebus@201.160.3.219.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has joined #lisp 02:22:01 stassats: sure, easy! CL: good. Scheme: bad. There, that's the difference between those two. 02:22:12 doc_who: most likely; its use of inline operators being replacable with prefix forms helps 02:22:14 jk 02:22:38 -!- xan_ [~xan@x2.core.archive.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:23:01 madnificent: it's CL good, Scheme good, ELisp bad 02:24:23 is haskell a lisp? :) 02:25:06 stassats: that means I must go to bed, it's way past my bedtime 02:25:09 why isn't there a common scheme/cl compiler? 02:25:09 good night #lisp 02:25:21 oconnore: they're different. 02:25:23 is ham sandwich a lisp? 02:25:25 it seems like it would be easy to specify a compiler for one in the other 02:25:50 sure, but I don't know how much of the underlying bits they'd actually be able to share 02:25:57 with the lisp1 vs lisp2, as well as continuation support 02:26:03 oconnore: not more so than for any other language. 02:26:10 lisp1 vs lisp2 is a minor difference 02:26:28 clozure can even become a lisp1 with a small change to the parser... 02:26:47 i haven't seen it done elsewhere 02:27:06 i guess continuations would be a hangup 02:27:16 so it sounds like we need a lisp-family compiler collection a la gcc? :) 02:27:45 i don't 02:27:53 who's we? 02:28:04 oconnore: Scheme was invented by Guy Steele and Gerald Sussman, Steele was part of the commitee that designed CL and he incorperated some of Scheme's features like Lexical Scoping as well as features from many other Lisps of that time 02:28:22 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@pool-68-161-93-24.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 02:28:25 yes, i know that 02:29:07 is nil handled the same in scheme as in cl? 02:29:11 and Steele was also involved with Java 02:29:15 as in (symbolp '()) -> t, etc 02:29:25 there's no nil in scheme 02:29:32 oconnore: well I dont see why you want a common compiler, CL is already Common Lisp, its like wanting a common compiler for Haskell and OCAML 02:29:34 there's empty list and false value, #f 02:29:35 Phoodus: no. There's only the empty list. 02:29:38 ok 02:30:18 "nil as a symbol & a cons cell (but not consp!)" always seems to require weird hacks in the implementations I've seen 02:30:39 it's not a cons cell; it has a CAR and a CDR. 02:30:39 the CL implementations 02:30:43 right 02:30:53 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:31:03 arquebus: honestly, i don't care whether there is or not. but if i was a motivated schemer it would seem to be the path of least resistance. 02:31:13 The simplest way is to test for NILness in the accessors. 02:31:52 oconnore: there's a plenty of quality scheme implementations, i don't see any motivation to make one with CL 02:31:52 arquebus: it seems to me like the path of least resistance is to let someone else build an implementation. 02:32:00 as far as i know sbcl outperforms most scheme compilers 02:32:18 even stalin? 02:32:27 BountyX [~erhan@adsl-65-43-225-146.dsl.bcvloh.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:38 compiler performance is a multicriteria objective. 02:33:04 I don't see that SBCL dominates all the other scheme or CL compilers. 02:33:52 oconnore: sbcl is just an improved cmucl, I dont believe in standardizing implementations, someone is always going to come up with a better one 02:33:53 i haven't heard of stalin, but that doesn't look to be general purpose. 02:33:53 I think I've inspected all the hashtable instances in my leaky program, still can't find the source of runaway simple-array-unsigned-byte-64 objects 02:33:54 Every time I hear someone say how good SBCL is as a compiler, I'm shocked. The more I learn about how it works, the less I can believe that it's still outperforming other lisp compilers. 02:34:29 afaict, type inference is the major differentiator 02:34:41 though it's surprising that others don't do it 02:34:42 nyef: i didn't say good, i said outperforms 02:34:46 This may be a case of "familiarity breeds contempt", and I may be well served by studying some other compilers so that I know what the actual competitive landscape is like. 02:35:08 Phoodus: stalin's 0-CFA is a much better framework for that. 02:35:25 The main difference might just be the amount of grad student hours thrown at the problem. 02:35:26 pkhuong: I just meant among CL compilers that I've checked disassemblies in 02:35:47 does it really beat gambit-c 02:35:58 albino: they don't compile the same language. Define "beat". 02:36:21 FWIW, gambit is a pretty naive compiler. 02:36:23 naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has joined #lisp 02:36:25 pkhuong: well he was making a comment about the relative speed of scheme implementations and sbcl ... 02:37:26 what benchmark do you want to use? The performance envelopes are just not comparable. 02:37:45 agree 02:38:11 why do you ask that question, knowing that it's meaningless, then? 02:38:28 in SBCL, is there a way to get more verbose memory usage descriptions than just (room)? 02:38:37 (room t) 02:38:43 same thing 02:38:57 pkhuong: it's a mystery why you're pointing this out to me and not oconnore 02:39:15 pkhuong: if we're going to have a pointless discussion am I also not allowed to make pointless conversation? 02:39:26 you asked whether SBCL beats gambit-c. 02:39:27 Phoodus: (sb-vm:memory-usage :count-spaces '(:static :dynamic)) 02:39:49 nevermind 02:39:50 thanks 02:40:04 is it possible to instruct slime to add font lock keywords in the same way it adds indentation hints for macros? 02:40:58 yes 02:41:46 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 02:43:04 Phoodus: There may also be some custom tools out there based on some of the ROOM guts. Apropos for "map-heap" to find the guts (or look in SYS:SRC;CODE;ROOM.LISP), tools based on them may be harder to find, though. 02:43:38 ... Which, of course, reminds me, the ROOM guts are /still/ extra special crufty. 02:44:03 felideon [~felideon@adsl-98-64-128-246.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:44:16 yeah, I've tried some map-allocated-object, or whatever it was, and ended up hanging often :) 02:44:52 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:45:04 basically, I've got a fairly steady number of simple-array-unsinged-byte-64 objects, but they increase in memory footprint 02:45:25 I inspected, afaict, all the hashtables I use and can't see anything out of the ordinary 02:45:27 what's your program? 02:45:33 big server 02:45:43 what would you consider out of the ordinary? 02:45:53 hashtables with very large numbers of elements 02:46:01 which would make the array buckets large 02:46:26 (presuming that they use 64bit/fixnum arrays in their implementation) 02:46:56 They rescale the arrays to widen the buckets if there are too many elements, don't they? 02:47:04 Err... narrow the buckets. 02:47:15 that's how they typically work 02:47:32 I don't allocate any dynamic 64-bit element arrays myself 02:47:33 do you delete elements from the hash tables? 02:47:53 I have weak hashtables as well as manually remhash/clrhash in places 02:48:45 but upon full inspection, no table seems to have more than 60 elements, and since the number of arrays isn't increasing very much, I suspect I'm not leaking tables themselves 02:49:13 albino: I suggest that you add those implementations to the alioth shootout, so that there is something to compare again. 02:49:31 er, against. 02:49:37 20-30 thousand arrays, 200MB usage 02:49:38 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:49:43 -!- rfg [~rfg@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: rfg] 02:49:45 Zhivago: I think that's a fair suggestion 02:50:24 Phoodus: is that post (full) GC? 02:50:57 how many hash tables do you expect there to be? 02:51:10 yeah, after GC 02:51:32 and I don't know how many tables to expect. I'm looking at the rate of increase of the various reported numbers over time 02:51:52 What makes you think there's anything wrong then? 02:52:02 because it's leaking memory doing effectively nothing 02:52:05 zerogeedawg [~brian@c-71-202-139-217.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:52:10 can someone help me? 02:52:14 (let a(* 5 5)) 02:52:14 (print a) 02:52:21 zerogeedawg: read a book. 02:52:23 no 02:52:27 Fine 02:52:33 that's not how let works 02:52:33 your let syntax is wrong. Look it up 02:52:39 xan_ [~xan@205.158.58.41.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 02:52:42 It works for me 02:52:54 no need for help then. 02:52:57 http://www.parkscomputing.com/lisptest.html 02:53:18 Funny, I tried that lisptest thing, and couldn't get it to do anything. 02:53:32 Even a simple (+ 3 4) didn't return 9. 02:53:41 7? 02:53:48 smalltalk joke. 02:54:00 I know because you have to do 02:54:17 (+ 3 4) equals 9, for very large values of 3 and 4 02:54:18 (setq a(+ 3 4)) 02:54:29 haha :) 02:54:46 -!- BountyX [~erhan@adsl-65-43-225-146.dsl.bcvloh.ameritech.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:54:56 Ah. Stupid option down at the bottom. :-( 02:55:26 Hrm. "Error: undefined function find-package". 02:55:45 ... undefined function float. 02:56:07 Thus far, this lisptest thing appears to be good at adding three and four. 02:56:16 And not much else. :-P 02:56:31 nyef: look at the source :) 02:57:29 -!- Harag [~Harag@dsl-243-0-188.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:59:02 Can't be bothered. 02:59:06 BountyX [~erhan@adsl-65-43-225-146.dsl.bcvloh.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 02:59:44 The shortlist of lisp implementations for which I might consider digging into the source of is currently '(clozure-common-lisp). 03:00:07 -!- BountyX [~erhan@adsl-65-43-225-146.dsl.bcvloh.ameritech.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:00:30 ... I might push T onto that list again at some point, now that I have more of a clue as to what I'd be looking at. 03:00:37 ah, I ran map-allocated-objects, finding the object with the biggest size. It's an array with a bunch of sb-impl::%empty-ht-slot%s, pointing again to hashtables 03:01:11 I still don't understand what makes you think there is a problem. 03:01:35 BountyX [~erhan@adsl-65-43-225-146.dsl.bcvloh.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 03:02:08 I have a memory leak. This is a long-running server. That is a problem. 03:02:21 -!- dlila [~dlila@CPE0014d1c9243c-CM001bd71cede2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:02:30 In my understanding of the server I wrote, it should not be storing new data as it idles 03:02:32 but you have no idea how many hash tables there should be around. 03:02:53 regardless of that, their usage shoudl not grow unboundedly over time, as it is 03:03:21 I'd look at your code first, then. 03:03:56 I have. But now I've finally got the dump of at least one hashtable that has data it should not be holding on to 03:04:22 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2CF95.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:04:24 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 03:04:39 -!- zerogeedawg [~brian@c-71-202-139-217.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: zerogeedawg] 03:05:08 what is the most used thread library for CL? Found that bordeaux threads project 03:05:08 -!- necroforest [~jarred@pool-96-249-147-66.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: necroforest] 03:05:37 paul0: threads aren't a library feature. bordeaux-threads only tries and smooth over the differences between implementations 03:05:56 portable-threads is also good 03:06:17 necroforest [~jarred@pool-96-249-147-66.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:53 -!- arquebus [~arquebus@201.160.3.219.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has left #lisp 03:07:15 I see 03:08:40 ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:11:19 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 03:12:10 found an article about concurrency on cliki.net, http://www.cliki.net/concurrency 03:12:26 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441465.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:14:10 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 03:14:31 learn Erlang to get some great ideas about concurrency. Then stop using Erlang because it's got some terrible pragmatics :) 03:15:10 bordeaux-threads IMHO has the honor of being de-facto standard library ^_- 03:15:29 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:16:04 p_l|backup: it looks like de-facto standard, it is mentioned in a lot of sites, besides, it is the first result in the google search 03:16:48 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442626.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 03:18:08 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 03:18:43 pnq [~nick@ACA2010B.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 03:21:19 need to go now, thanks 03:21:53 BlankVer1e [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 03:22:10 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:22:48 -!- paul0 [~user@189.26.129.50.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:23:14 -!- splittist2 [~splittist@188.62.245.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:24:23 -!- markskil1eck [~mark@host86-136-233-87.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 03:24:36 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.40] has joined #lisp 03:24:37 -!- KDr21 [~KDr2@123.122.105.93] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:24:38 KDr2 [~KDr2@123.122.110.38] has joined #lisp 03:24:46 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:25:31 Damn. The wait-function is the function run by the scheduler to determine if a process should be scheduled. And I'm not seeing any term for a function which is a wrapper around PROCESS-WAIT. :-/ 03:26:09 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:26:59 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 03:27:30 -!- cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:240:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:31:40 jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has joined #lisp 03:34:38 alph_cent [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:34:45 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@177.16.239.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:39:04 splittist2 [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 03:47:56 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-gwrmszhtcddhcxwf] has joined #lisp 03:48:43 Liera [~Liera@113.172.38.77] has joined #lisp 03:53:14 Mococa [~Mococa@177.16.239.194] has joined #lisp 03:56:23 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-64-222-131-96.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 04:03:54 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.89.129] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:04:19 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.93.3] has joined #lisp 04:04:21 -!- felideon [~felideon@adsl-98-64-128-246.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:07:17 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:08:48 -!- necroforest [~jarred@pool-96-249-147-66.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: necroforest] 04:08:56 zerogeedawg [~brian@c-71-202-139-217.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:09:05 I got it by guessing! 04:09:17 (setq a(read)) 04:09:27 I now have a lisp interpreter 04:09:36 Lisp Works 04:11:46 Try rather: (loop (princ "> ") (finish-output) (print (eval (read)))) 04:12:28 necroforest [~jarred@pool-96-249-147-66.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:13:20 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:14:11 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:17:38 cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has joined #lisp 04:17:38 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has quit [Changing host] 04:17:38 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 04:25:48 convulsive [~convulsiv@129.133.193.182] has joined #lisp 04:26:29 -!- mxd [18179117@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.23.145.23] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:30:16 -!- zerogeedawg [~brian@c-71-202-139-217.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: zerogeedawg] 04:31:05 zerogeedawg [~brian@c-71-202-139-217.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:31:25 -!- zerogeedawg [~brian@c-71-202-139-217.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:32:22 I want to be able to classify closure/lambda objects somehow 04:32:39 are there any standard accessors on such an object, or will I have to wrap them? 04:33:06 you mean, so you can treat them more like instances of classes/prototypes? 04:33:14 basically "Is this lambda that I'm going to funcall from , so I can do special handling?" 04:33:24 or annotate them somehow 04:33:38 without having a separate list/table to eq its identity against a set 04:34:16 sykopomp: that's one way to skin the cat 04:34:54 -!- necroforest [~jarred@pool-96-249-147-66.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: necroforest] 04:35:48 My first preference is duck typing them. My second preference is to use the lookup table. 04:35:57 ...from there, one wonders why you wouldn't just wrap it. 04:36:01 I've got an unwinding problem to solve; when I throw away lambdas, I don't know if they need special things done first 04:36:34 there's a ton of code that just directly calls these; wrapping it would be a pretty hefty code change 04:37:19 -!- BountyX [~erhan@adsl-65-43-225-146.dsl.bcvloh.ameritech.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:38:27 what's your duck typing thought? if I'm unrolling a few thousand lambdas, I dont' want to actually funcall call each to get their result, for just the few special cases 04:38:32 -!- KDr2 [~KDr2@123.122.110.38] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:39:15 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 04:39:44 Phoodus: Do you know about funcallables? 04:40:03 And what classification job do you want to do? 04:40:18 this seems like a larger architectural issue you need to take care of than just "how do I add some sort of type to my lambdas?" 04:40:38 Zhivago: a quick google points to MOP stuff, which I've not done 04:41:17 sykopomp: yes, one bug I found requires an architectural change. I'm looking at least-painful approaches to fixing it 04:41:25 So, what actual problem are you trying to solve? 04:41:25 (if they exist) 04:41:43 I basically have a stack of lambdas that represent a program running 04:42:01 you can make instances of CLOS objects funcallable, but that sounds like the sort of change you're trying to avoid. 04:42:04 in certain shortcut cases, I discard a swath of them and continue on with what was below 04:42:22 Phoodus: perhaps something a little less vague? 04:42:48 MasterBismuth [~MasterBis@184.99.12.152] has joined #lisp 04:42:48 Phoodus: Do you know about CPS? 04:43:02 which CPS? :-P 04:43:33 in any case, it doesn't sound like there's a quick fix here. I'm going to have to add some sort of hook somewhere to catch this informatino manually 04:44:45 continuation passing style? that's basically what I'm using 04:45:16 In which case, why do you do need to do anything special? 04:45:27 You just continue to the point that you skip to. 04:45:49 because I'm aborting continuations in an async system, eliminating the continuation paths which would have cleaned up properly after itself, leading to a memory leak 04:46:23 The error is aborting. 04:46:30 Instead just continue to the cleanup code. 04:46:48 yes, easier said than done ;) 04:47:13 anyway, the lambda question was just asking about a technical facility that might have made one way of tackling this easy 04:47:18 I've been working with distributed planners a bit recently. 04:47:29 It might be that that's what you should be using instead. 04:47:34 am0c [~am0c@180.224.41.34] has joined #lisp 04:47:59 Here I have a set of rules, which require flags to be set to run, and which set flags upon completion. 04:49:04 lanthan_ [~ze@p54B7BA26.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:49:18 Your case would be simple -- I'd just set the flags for the cleanup rules and for whatever you decided to skip. 04:49:36 -!- lanthan [~ze@p54B7FD6C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:49:42 in mine, one of my steps starts a request for async responses. But when I hit a case like negation, I unwind out of that but the async responses still flow in without the cancelation going out 04:49:59 it's arbitrarily nested. There aren't just a fixed number of flags to set 04:50:16 so I need to stack up cleanup handlers or something 04:50:54 Sounds like some fundamental design problems. 04:50:54 anyway, going to do it the "real" way if easy classification tests on lambdas aren't something easily offered (which was my suspicion, but hey might as well ask) 04:51:30 the message passing was added to the system later, so the design didn't account for it up front 04:52:15 it used to be that the entire context was held functionally in the lambda stack, in closures which would discard cleanly. But once it went multi-agent, it's no longer functional 04:53:23 Harag [~Harag@dsl-243-0-188.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 04:54:06 Yeah, fundamental design problems. 04:54:10 heh 04:54:49 when design can encompass all future possibilities, I'd love to take part in that :) 04:56:02 That's why fundamental redesign is sometimes needed to avoid making horrible botches of things. 04:56:13 what really hurts is going from pure functional to not 04:56:17 Particularly true of distribution. 04:59:15 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 05:00:49 markskil1eck [~mark@host86-136-233-87.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 05:03:22 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:05:42 necroforest [~jarred@pool-96-249-147-66.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:12:33 Deathaholic [~Mococa@177.16.239.194] has joined #lisp 05:12:57 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@177.16.239.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:13:08 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timeout: 252 seconds] 07:30:29 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-150-156.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:05 -!- udzinari [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: zzzzzzZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzz] 07:34:14 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 07:35:01 Areil [~user@113.172.38.77] has joined #lisp 07:47:19 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:48:19 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.201.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:49:45 lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@77.17.114.70.tmi.telenormobil.no] has joined #lisp 07:50:28 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:50:32 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-50-87.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:50:33 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has joined #lisp 07:51:26 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:52:21 -!- am0c [~am0c@180.224.41.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:53:31 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-91-25.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:55:43 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-114-213.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:57:06 amirhoshangi [~amir@95.38.52.69] has joined #lisp 07:57:38 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:58:21 Xach: hi, should i write (ql:quickload "linedit") each time that i load sbcl ? 07:59:32 for history and autoComplete i mean 08:00:38 -!- Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@1807ds2-noe.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:00:49 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.55.246] has joined #lisp 08:01:19 put that in your .sbclrc 08:02:17 in my home ? 08:07:00 yes 08:07:01 c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-mbdfkjaklrqlxqbl] has joined #lisp 08:07:07 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:07:20 ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 08:08:04 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 08:09:49 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.55.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:11:52 flip214: so if it doesnt exist, should it make one ? 08:12:22 you should create it - perhaps along with the other suggested lines from linedit 08:12:57 that's the expedient option. the right option is to use slime 08:14:06 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 08:16:04 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has joined #lisp 08:16:30 well, I find sbcl to be a nice calculator .... If I quickly need the exact value of (expt 2 128) I know where to get it 08:17:00 So for these quick things I tend to use the REPL ... having completion etc. is nice 08:17:58 Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@fw.math.ku.dk] has joined #lisp 08:18:34 pinterface1 [~pinterfac@173-20-55-85.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 08:19:09 -!- lanthan_ [~ze@p54B7BA26.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 08:19:38 gor[e] [~svr@gw1.masterhost.ru] has joined #lisp 08:19:53 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:20:06 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.247.143] has joined #lisp 08:20:15 ah. I use clisp as a calculator :) 08:20:26 just what I was going to say! 08:20:54 hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:23:57 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-gwrmszhtcddhcxwf] has left #lisp 08:25:42 asaveljevs [~asaveljev@85.15.227.49] has joined #lisp 08:26:00 -!- asaveljevs [~asaveljev@85.15.227.49] has quit [Client Quit] 08:26:25 -!- Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@fw.math.ku.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:26:44 -!- Areil [~user@113.172.38.77] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:27:36 orivej [~orivej@host-13-152-66-217.spbmts.ru] has joined #lisp 08:27:47 ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has joined #lisp 08:27:47 basho__ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-229-225.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:29:59 -!- ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has quit [Client Quit] 08:30:45 -!- amirhoshangi [~amir@95.38.52.69] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:32:59 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 08:34:04 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 08:35:48 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:37:30 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-zbivifikhbqchyin] has joined #lisp 08:38:49 -!- BlankVer1e [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:40:14 hi all,i find sbcl need about 5s to require cl-ppcre,here is my source code: http://paste2.org/p/1398123 08:40:30 can it use less time to load cl-ppcre? 08:40:35 thanks 08:40:36 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 08:40:38 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-33-254.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 08:40:38 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-33-254.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 08:40:38 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 08:40:57 create a new image that has cl-ppcre already included 08:41:11 there's common-lisp-controller, it might do that for you 08:41:29 Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@fw.math.ku.dk] has joined #lisp 08:41:30 flip214: you are evil 08:41:31 oh.thanks.i'm new learner. 08:41:52 splittist2: why? Is there a better way to load it faster? 08:42:04 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 08:42:17 creating an image is good. Pointing someone at common-lisp-controller seems wrong. 08:42:37 well, AFAIK clc should just do that 08:42:38 cfy: Yeah take a look at buildapp 08:42:41 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:42:57 tcr: okay 08:43:00 Also includes clc-clbuild, a wrapper for clbuild. Please see http://common-lisp.net/project/clbuild/ for more information. 08:43:34 that's from "apt-cache show common-lisp-controller" 08:44:33 amirhoshangi [~amir@95.38.52.69] has joined #lisp 08:46:32 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:47:11 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 08:50:21 cfy: essentially, you would start sbcl, load cl-ppcre (and anything else you wanted) then sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die my-funky-core. The next time you wanted to start sbcl with all those things loaded sbcl --core my-funky-core. See e.g. http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Saving-a-Core-Image.html etc 08:51:16 -!- cwyang [~user@58.150.182.75] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:51:30 splittist2: thanks,i have tried sbcl --load a.lisp --eval '(sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die "a.out" :executable t :toplevel `main)'.it looks great :) 08:52:29 *cfy* afk 08:53:03 Guthur [c743cb8d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.141] has joined #lisp 08:55:22 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 08:56:36 a question about let and let*, can we say that let* interprets line by line so using old local var is ok in new line but let makes eval tree for all vars at once ? 08:56:52 let and let* seems confusing 08:57:09 you can think of let* as being lots of let within each other 08:57:38 (let* ((a) (b)) ...) => (let ((a)) (let ((b)) ...)) 08:58:09 ami: let* is the simple case. 08:58:53 ami: (let ((n1 e1) (n2 e2)) ... ) evaluates e1, then evaluates e2, then binds the result of e1 to n1, and the result of e2 to n2. 08:59:11 any example for clearance ? 08:59:29 in fact there is a good chance that this is exactly what it would macroexpand to 08:59:29 ami: (let* ((n1 e1) (n2 e2)) ...) evaluates e1 and binds to n1, then evaluates e2 and binds to n2. 09:00:14 ami: So you can say that let* does sequential binding and let does parallel binding, if you like. 09:00:30 -!- spaceinvader [~ec2-user@unaffiliated/spaceinvader] has left #lisp 09:00:50 Zhivago: yeah, thats what excatly wanted to know 09:01:10 You are welcome. Please spell "that's" properly. 09:02:21 Zhivago: you've a sensitive compiler . 09:03:00 ami: I've found that when people pretend to be intelligent they seem to think better. 09:04:05 -!- markskil1eck [~mark@host86-136-233-87.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:04:58 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:05:07 "that's" nice anyway. 09:05:38 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 09:05:58 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 09:06:02 cameronleake [~textual@124-171-72-nwork.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:06:04 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 09:06:47 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 09:07:25 -!- amirhoshangi [~amir@95.38.52.69] has left #lisp 09:07:34 amirhoshangi [~amir@95.38.52.69] has joined #lisp 09:10:39 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has left #lisp 09:12:56 -!- amirhoshangi 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peer] 11:00:05 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:00:45 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A4E5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:00:49 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@webuds163-56.rz.uni-saarland.de] has joined #lisp 11:00:53 -!- yan_ [~yan@srtd.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:01:00 yan_ [~yan@srtd.org] has joined #lisp 11:02:31 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:04:06 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 11:05:09 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:05:42 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:05:47 cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.67] has joined #lisp 11:05:50 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.67] has quit [Changing host] 11:05:50 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 11:08:42 yay, memory leak appears to be vanquished. Time to let it run for a few hours 11:08:49 Bahman [~bahman@2.144.250.248] has joined #lisp 11:09:21 Hi all! 11:09:40 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 11:15:16 Phoodus: you found the joys of GC'ers? 11:15:58 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@e198-003.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 11:16:05 the joys of compiler design, in the midst of changing requirements 11:16:39 Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:17:56 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:18:01 Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:19:47 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:20:58 -!- lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@77.17.114.70.tmi.telenormobil.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:21:32 danlentz [~danlentz@c-69-141-20-254.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:21:35 -!- danlentz [~danlentz@c-69-141-20-254.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:21:59 danlentz [~danlentz@c-69-141-20-254.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:22:01 -!- danlentz [~danlentz@c-69-141-20-254.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 11:22:25 danlentz [~danlentz@c-69-141-20-254.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:23:38 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@a91-152-135-21.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 11:23:56 orivej [~orivej@host-37-146-66-217.spbmts.ru] has joined #lisp 11:26:18 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:29:40 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@e198-003.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 11:29:58 -!- clog [~nef@bespin.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:30:56 -!- Guthur [c743cb8d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:31:09 Guthur [c0c1f50f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.193.245.15] has joined #lisp 11:32:21 peterhil` [~peterhil@a91-152-135-21.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 11:33:51 udzinari [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 11:34:59 -!- prip [~foo@host91-196-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:35:57 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.163.229] has joined #lisp 11:37:10 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-150-156.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:37:17 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:38:26 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:40:10 leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has joined #lisp 11:41:19 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: "Object-oriented design" is an oxymoron] 11:45:47 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:46:56 -!- orivej [~orivej@host-37-146-66-217.spbmts.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:47:01 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:47:20 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:48:16 prip [~foo@host200-120-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:48:55 I never hear much about GCL, yet it's one of the few that supports ARM. Any opinions on it? 11:49:07 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-190-145.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 11:49:58 Phoodus: dead 11:50:12 Phoodus: AFAIK it felt behind wrt conformity, and indeed has less development resources invested in it. However, it ran maxima well. ECL is similar (it uses gcc too) and might have better features. 11:50:24 I don't think it's dead already. 11:50:43 Phoodus: it supports ARM the same way ECL does, but didn't see any significant developement in last ... 6 years? 11:50:45 oh wow, GCL's last update was in 2005. Didn't notice the dates at first glance 11:51:13 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 11:51:22 It ran Maxima well, but that's possibly because running Maxima was one of the goals at some point 11:51:38 I had bad experiences with ECL when I tried it (win xp pro 64), but I'm sure outside of that environment it's much better 11:51:40 Now, maxima upgraded to conforming CL, so it runs on all implementations. 11:52:06 Phoodus: I'd not try ECL outside of cygwin (I'd not do any windows development outside of cygwin). 11:52:22 we're a linux shop now anyways 11:52:54 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:52:55 Then cygwin is a good way to port linux applications to windows. 11:53:12 let me rephrase that: we don't target Windows anymore :) 11:53:37 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 11:54:28 *p_l|backup* had no problems running CL native under NT6/amd64 11:54:46 clisp, ccl, etc yes. 11:55:07 right, we settled on ccl for windows back when we were using it 11:55:38 theaded, 64bit, etc all fine under ccl 11:55:42 threaded 11:56:31 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:57:26 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:58:38 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:00:39 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@e199-240.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 12:01:41 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:03:57 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.59] has joined #lisp 12:05:09 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:06:32 -!- prip [~foo@host200-120-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:08:40 Jasko3 [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 12:11:45 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:12:58 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:13:19 clog [~nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 12:13:33 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 12:14:13 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 12:15:53 lundis [~lundis@dyn56-304.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 12:18:18 how can I turn off upcasing in the reader 12:18:34 (setf (readtable-case *readtable*) :preserve) 12:19:02 then remember that all the symbols in CL have names in uppercase, so write (PRINT 'hello) 12:19:04 prip [~foo@host33-131-dynamic.47-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:19:29 or use Zmacs to do it for you automatically... 12:19:43 Not really an option 12:19:51 Or my M-x upcase-lisp emacs command. 12:20:31 You can also use caps-mode in emacs. 12:20:46 I'm creating a small testing DSL, that will map to HTTP requests, and I'm worried about the casing in the query string variables 12:21:06 Why do you want to intern the query strings? 12:21:19 Just do not use READ or READ-FROM-STRING on them! 12:21:32 not really, I was creating defuns for each action 12:21:52 Then you can write (defun |command1| (...) ...) 12:22:05 workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 12:22:12 But it's better to go thru a hash-table in thoses situations, to avoid code injection. 12:22:31 (setf (gethash "command1" *command-table*) (function command-1)) ... 12:23:02 You can even use a :test 'equalp hash-table to ignore case in the query strings. 12:23:30 eg. (defaction (setid id)) would produce a (DEFUN SETID (ID) (MAKE-REQUEST "command=/id=" :PARAMETERS ("ID" NAME)) 12:24:18 You may also explicitely downcase the symbol to compute the query string keyword. 12:25:06 But most users can't make the difference between ID and id, so it's better if you just match them case insensitively, so it doesn't matter if it's "ID" or "id". 12:25:17 (unless you're building a url). 12:25:33 I am building the url 12:25:49 If you use the definition to generate urls, then you could write: (defaction (setid (id "id"))) specifying both the variable name, and the foreign query string keyword. 12:26:58 I'd like the defaction(s) to be use to specify all the actions, which will then be used by testing scripts of the from (with-session (with-pricing-page :price 123 :user "abc")) 12:26:59 Or (defaction (setid |id|)), but then you'll have to use |id| in your body... 12:27:09 from/form 12:27:48 Yes, better write it like this: (defaction (setid (id "id"))) 12:28:08 yeah you're probably right, cheers 12:28:14 You could make the string optional and use string-downcase by default. 12:30:53 Harag [~Harag@dsl-243-2-225.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:32:05 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 12:32:16 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@e199-240.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 12:38:37 -!- jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.14.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:43:05 -!- am0c [~am0c@180.224.41.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:43:43 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:43:55 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@e199-240.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 12:43:57 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:43:59 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 12:44:44 -!- djinni` [~djinni`@li125-242.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:45:11 djinni` [~djinni`@li125-242.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 12:48:38 hello 12:49:07 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 12:49:41 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-0-99.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 12:49:41 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-0-99.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Changing host] 12:49:41 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 12:50:47 is there an rfc2046 library around ? 12:51:10 longfin [~longfin@163.255.239.177] has joined #lisp 12:51:38 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 12:52:56 kiuma: google for common lisp mime gives several results. 12:53:52 I try, I was googlein for "rfc2046 lisp" 12:54:25 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.228] has joined #lisp 12:54:50 There are not a lot of fools like me who names his packages by the standard... 12:55:19 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:56:05 :) 12:56:42 let's see inside cl-mime then... 12:57:12 -!- hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:57:35 hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:02 -!- greaver [~J@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:59:28 nyef [~nyef@pool-64-222-131-96.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 12:59:34 G'morning all. 12:59:46 sigh, useless for my needs :( 12:59:52 hello nyef 13:00:06 Dare I ask? 13:00:26 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 13:02:27 ? 13:02:51 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@e199-240.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 13:02:55 On irc, dont' ask whether you should dare to ask. 13:03:09 jweiss [~user@cpe-069-134-063-238.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:03:30 can I ask about asking about something? my question is about asking about something else 13:04:03 Even in #lisp, any meta question is frowned upon. Quite paradoxal, but that's the way it is. 13:04:36 On the other hand, any question comes with its own meta question that gets answered sometimes instead of the question. 13:04:58 The meta question is: "Is the question valid?" 13:05:49 longfin_ [~longfin@49.63.90.57] has joined #lisp 13:06:05 #lisp, the #1=(meta . #1#) channel 13:06:35 -!- longfin [~longfin@163.255.239.177] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:07:10 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:07:16 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.188.134] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:07:29 vert2 [vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-zxaosnuvymphkmzi] has joined #lisp 13:07:41 billitch [~billitch@78.250.216.113] has joined #lisp 13:07:47 greaver [~J@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 13:09:14 so universal time must not be affected by timezones, right? this can be relied on, right? 13:09:39 as long as the underlying system is configured, I suppose 13:10:00 am0c [~am0c@180.224.41.34] has joined #lisp 13:12:11 -!- vert2 [vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-zxaosnuvymphkmzi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:13:07 Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:13:10 -!- greaver [~J@212.88.117.162] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:13:31 Xach: isn't that the whole point of universal time? (excuse my ignorance.) 13:13:38 vert2 [vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-ztndvdcecwybpngv] has joined #lisp 13:13:48 oops, I mean xale. 13:13:57 dlowe_nb [~dlowe@63.115.78.49] has joined #lisp 13:14:25 xale: just be careful with using it (always supply time-zone to decode-universal-time) 13:14:58 pnq [~nick@ACA243F4.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 13:15:02 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.188.134] has joined #lisp 13:16:02 xale: as I understand it, supplying 0 as time-zone should always give you UTC time 13:16:16 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:16:43 cfy [~cfy@122.228.135.213] has joined #lisp 13:16:44 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.135.213] has quit [Changing host] 13:16:44 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 13:17:24 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.188.134] has quit [Client Quit] 13:17:54 -!- dlowe_nb [~dlowe@63.115.78.49] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:18:07 necroforest [~jarred@pool-96-249-147-66.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:18:09 -!- cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:18:29 cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has joined #lisp 13:19:56 ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has joined #lisp 13:20:04 Good morning. 13:20:17 morning ChibaPet 13:25:46 dlowe_g [~dlowe@74.125.59.113] has joined #lisp 13:26:58 -!- longfin_ [~longfin@49.63.90.57] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:30:44 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-4356673a.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:31:06 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:31:24 -!- cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:31:28 cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has joined #lisp 13:34:34 longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has joined #lisp 13:36:45 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:37:17 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@97.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:37:18 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:15 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-187-50.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:39:08 unix time is best time! 13:40:00 -!- necroforest [~jarred@pool-96-249-147-66.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: necroforest] 13:41:06 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@e196-036.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 13:41:14 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 13:41:25 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 13:43:54 necroforest [~jarred@pool-96-249-147-66.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:44:07 Landr: best how? 13:45:49 jdz: Best in the sense of "Canadian English is Better English", presumably. 13:45:55 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 13:46:05 The only time i use is 'plank times since big bang' 13:46:19 This whole relative epoch thing is for pansys 13:46:25 Whatever happened to microfortnights? 13:46:31 amb007 [~a_bakic@97.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:52 -!- necroforest [~jarred@pool-96-249-147-66.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:47:10 And the plural form of "pansy" is "pansies". 13:47:31 PanSYS(R) 13:47:49 nyef: went the way of the attoparsec... 13:47:54 hmm, well what do you know 13:48:04 ChibaPet: Good save. 13:48:07 1 fortnight = 1209600 seconds, so 1 microfortnight ~= 1.20 seconds 13:48:34 Just do it in Kessels. 13:48:34 -!- alfa_y_omega_ [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:48:59 necroforest [~jarred@pool-96-249-147-66.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:38 >Unknown unit 'kessel' 13:49:38 alfa_y_omega_ [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #lisp 13:49:40 :( 13:50:17 Zhivago: you will have to enlighten us as to what a Kessel is. 13:50:25 A measurement unit that equates to some variable number of parsecs? 13:50:33 It is a measure of parsecs by skill. 13:50:34 12, I believe 13:51:01 yes, 1 kessel run is less than 12 parsecs, depending on how cool you are 13:51:18 How 1977! 13:51:39 ah, I see. well, I suppose it is Star Wars day. 13:51:40 Of course, parsec is a silly measurement. 13:51:50 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.188.134] has joined #lisp 13:52:34 orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has joined #lisp 13:52:48 hmm... program... play games... program... play games... eenie meenie minie moe 13:52:53 So, I just discovered SB-VM:DESCRIPTOR-VS-NON-DESCRIPTOR-STORAGE. 13:53:02 what does that do? 13:53:28 Invokes the debugger on a SIMPLE-ERROR with control string "bogus widetag: ~S". 13:53:41 o.O 13:54:06 Yeah, I'm less than impressed with the stuff in SYS:SRC;CODE;ROOM.LISP. 13:54:53 This one has a couple of lists of tags, the union of which is expected to be fairly complete. 13:55:29 It's missing a few specialized array tags (by inspection) and FDEFN-WIDETAG (by testing). 13:55:34 And possibly other stuff. 13:56:50 I also get the distinct impression that MAP-ALLOCATED-OBJECTS might break if ever a heap space extends into the upper half of the CPU address space. 13:57:20 -!- loke [~elias@bb116-14-111-203.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:57:22 zerogeedawg [~brian@c-71-202-139-217.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:54 -!- chr`` [~user@148.122.202.244] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:58:21 -!- Landr [~user@78-21-55-79.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:58:24 How do you print something before you take input? 13:58:38 on the same line 13:58:55 (print "Something: ") is one way 13:59:06 You might need to use finish-output or force-output for it to display. 13:59:09 No but 13:59:34 (setq user_input(read)) I want to print something that appears on the same line first 13:59:59 chr`` [~user@148.122.202.244] has joined #lisp 14:00:02 Go right ahead, just mind the output buffering. 14:00:15 zerogeedawg: (progn (print "Something: ") (setf *user-input* (read))) 14:00:31 ... FINISH-OUTPUT! 14:00:43 (How come we never see a SWEDISH-OUTPUT function?) 14:01:07 thank u (It worked!) 14:01:18 zerogeedawg: The best way you could thank me is to write real words! 14:01:29 what does that mean? 14:01:35 oh fine 14:01:43 (It would have to be SWEDDISH-OUTPUT to properly match that.) 14:01:43 I thought you just said real. 14:01:51 bubo [~bubo@178-190-147-63.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 14:02:03 nyef: There seems to be a pervasive bias, see also LAP. 14:02:03 ChibaPet: Are you sure? 14:02:11 -!- am0c [~am0c@180.224.41.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:02:25 Xach: So there does. Hunh. 14:02:26 nyef: SWEDDISH-OUTPUT? 14:02:32 (I would think so. The first is missing a consonant, so the second clearly would have to pick up an extra.) 14:02:35 oh, damn, ChibaPet beat me to it 14:03:03 And to think, EuLisp also exists... 14:04:36 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 14:05:01 SWEDDISH-OUTPUT? transform everything into "Bork"? 14:05:10 -!- billitch [~billitch@78.250.216.113] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:06:16 gtg 14:06:18 -!- zerogeedawg [~brian@c-71-202-139-217.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: zerogeedawg] 14:06:18 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:07:18 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-4356673a.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 14:07:46 nyef: That just shifts the problem one country west. 14:08:37 Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:08:51 nyef: (defun swedish-output (datum stream) (princ datum stream) (princ " Börk, börk, börk!" stream)) 14:09:03 loke [~elias@bb116-14-111-203.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 14:09:04 nyef: also, microforthnights are still in use, iirc 14:09:47 <_3b> p_l|backup: popular on embedded systems i assume? 14:09:47 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA243F4.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:11:52 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.138.141] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:12:15 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:12:17 _3b: no. I recall something about VMS using it at some point, as a way to discourage people who don't know what they are doing from messing with system time (there were cases where not only qualified people might access system console at reboot, after all) 14:12:50 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:12:53 <_3b> using forth? yeah, i could see that being an effective deterrent 14:13:00 it was customary on big systems to ask for correct time and date upon startup for quite long time 14:13:02 -!- necroforest [~jarred@pool-96-249-147-66.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: necroforest] 14:13:04 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 14:13:13 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:29 -!- drdo``` [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:13:43 -!- chr`` [~user@148.122.202.244] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:13:48 billitch [~billitch@78.250.216.113] has joined #lisp 14:14:15 chr`` [~user@148.122.202.244] has joined #lisp 14:14:46 *p_l|backup* recalls how TOPS-20 used to ask both time and reason for last shutdown upon startup 14:15:04 necroforest [~jarred@pool-96-249-147-66.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:15:33 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-gcrbpunktshccham] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:15:37 Nice. 14:16:22 Windows Server tends to ask for reason on shutdown, or after reboot on first login by administrator (in case of emergency reboots) 14:16:34 "Reason for last shutdown: Axe through CPU." 14:17:22 "Reason for last shutdown: Percussive maintenance." 14:17:42 I prefer "Not enough Magic" 14:17:57 (real reason on certain machine... though I doubt it was in the log) 14:19:59 ... was this the machine with the switch on the side with "Magic" and "More Magic" settings? 14:20:03 yes 14:20:20 nyef: it's mentioned in the jargon file, isn't it? 14:20:20 I remember reading about that one. 14:20:26 Yes. Yes, it is. 14:20:48 milanj [~milanj_@212-200-194-87.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 14:20:59 sabalaba [~sabalaba@adsl-69-212-35-211.dsl.sfldmi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:25 Something about the grounding being marginal where the switch was connected, and flipping the switch screwed it up worse enough to crash the machine. 14:21:53 nyef: that was the theory at the end of th story. I believe the story never actually claims to have figured out the cause. 14:22:04 Could have been a resonant antenna. 14:22:22 nyef: I thought it was related to capacitance at the point where the cable connected, and the switch changed it through grounding... 14:22:43 Something like that. 14:23:05 Far, far too late to come to any sort of definitive conclusion. 14:25:22 salva [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 14:26:01 -!- alfa_y_omega_ [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:26:27 Fact is, I'm sure there's some silicium allocated to such "magic" tricks nowadays. 14:27:25 pjb: newest semiconductor tech goes on the border of relying only on quantum effects. Grounding might actually not exist there :) 14:28:01 But I'm sure they must add some tunnel boxes to make it all work, without knowing why it works with, and not without. 14:28:56 seangrove [~user@c-98-234-242-172.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:29:20 alfa_y_omega_ [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #lisp 14:29:39 -!- orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:30:57 rvirding [~chatzilla@c-3c90e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 14:33:58 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:34:21 how can I ensure macros in the &body of a macro get expanded 14:34:41 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:34:50 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:34:51 There's nothing to do to ensure such a thing, whatever mearning you may have for it. 14:35:22 It's done automatically. 14:36:01 umm, I must be doing something wrong then 14:36:15 Probably, yes. 14:39:54 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c-3c90e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:39:54 -!- madsenz [~madsenz@n11z181l194.static.ctm.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:40:37 madsenz [~madsenz@n11z181l194.static.ctm.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:39 compmstr [~compmstr@adsl-074-185-008-197.sip.clt.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:49 rvirding [~chatzilla@c-3c90e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 14:41:09 Guthur: in the macroexpansion, put those macros in positions that are evaluated. 14:41:29 if you expand into (defclass () ((my-slot-macro))) it ain't gonna work. 14:41:55 Guthur: a pasted example of what prompted the question would probably go a long way. 14:42:02 And remember that macros are to produce CODE, not data. for a ` (defclass () (,@(my-slot-FUNCTIOn))) ; use a function, not a macro. 14:43:09 Xach: I think the problem was a matter of stale fasl 14:43:09 mydik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:43:21 somethings got redefined as funcs 14:43:27 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:43:32 and all went a bit screwy 14:44:29 after cleaning out and recompiling things are proceeding a little further 14:44:43 that was going to be my second answer 14:45:41 tfb [~tfb@92.41.171.195.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:45:52 My second answer would have been that I use clisp, so I don't care for stale fasl (and I don't even compile and care for stale fas). 14:45:56 -!- cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:46:38 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.188.134] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:47:02 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@e196-036.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 14:48:36 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 14:49:40 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:50:02 -!- tvaalen [~r@unaffiliated/tvaal] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:51:10 -!- Harag [~Harag@dsl-243-2-225.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:51:58 tvaalen [~r@67.217.170.35] has joined #lisp 14:53:40 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 14:55:59 oops. well one oversight on my part was forgetting to send the darn HTTP request, doh 14:56:18 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:56:28 I still think there was a stale fasl issue though...well that's my excuse anyway, eheh 14:56:40 bad_alloc [~bad_alloc@HSI-KBW-085-216-109-135.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 14:57:22 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:32 jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.93] has joined #lisp 15:00:15 Hi I've just been trying to fing the book Peter Seibel recommended in his Book PCL: "TheANSI Common LIsp Reference Book", released in 2005. For some reason the apress page is empty amazon lists it as "not avaliable" and local bookdealers say that the isbn can't be associated to any books (in germany). Where can I get it or is it out of print? 15:01:05 bad_alloc: It was a book intended to be completed around the same time, and it was pushed back many times, and then it died. 15:01:42 Shame. Is there any other reference book you can recommend and that is preferably avaliable in europe? 15:01:43 bad_alloc: http://xach.livejournal.com/156584.html 15:02:10 -!- aerique [310225@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:02:15 bad_alloc: in general for out of print books you can try zvab.de / choosebooks.com or any other book retailer 15:02:41 -!- mydik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:02:43 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.163.229] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:02:49 bad_alloc: The best reference for Common Lisp is the specification, but I know of no good print edition of it. People use the online version, the CLHS, generally. 15:02:50 mydik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:10 Davsebamse [~davse@94.127.49.1] has joined #lisp 15:03:43 Although the 40pp summary in _ANSI Common Lisp_ makes a nice cheatsheet. 15:04:02 Like chewing gum can substitute for a meal, for a while. 15:04:11 Heh. 15:04:44 http://clqr.berlios.de/ is a freely availble printable short reference 15:04:54 -!- chr`` [~user@148.122.202.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:05:14 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-187-50.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 15:05:17 Graham's style there is really concise. Close re-reading has revealed much over the years. 15:05:23 wow... I'm slightly surprised it's so recently updated / edited 15:05:36 *pleasantly 15:06:16 easyE: I looked at it once and i think if you need a cheatsheet the one by Bert Bürgermeister is better and conciser (though without explinations) 15:06:36 this one : http://cheatsheetheap.com/common-lisp-quick-reference/ 15:07:03 bad_alloc: that is a bad way to get the document. better to use clqr.berlios.de. 15:07:04 bad_alloc: That's what Xach linked to. 15:07:11 Honestly, I've had it printed on my desk for a year, and I never used it. 15:07:24 C-h y is so much more practical... 15:07:36 (bound to common-lisp-hyperspec). 15:08:17 pjb: Yeah, I did the same. 15:10:25 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@e196-036.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 15:10:46 sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 15:11:51 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 15:13:08 tcr [~tcr@host187.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 15:13:20 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.188.134] has joined #lisp 15:14:43 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 15:17:49 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@webuds163-56.rz.uni-saarland.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:18:38 sellout: material goods are overrated. 15:22:58 chr`` [~user@148.122.202.244] has joined #lisp 15:23:50 Is there a CL library that is able to generate PNG/TIFF images from pages in a pdf? 15:24:01 (I don't think cl-pdf can do it) 15:24:21 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:24:33 -!- gor[e] [~svr@gw1.masterhost.ru] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:24:38 sykopomp: I don't know of anything that can do it. It's a pretty involved task. 15:24:40 well, cl-pdf is supposed to generate PDF, not consume. 15:24:54 gor[e] [~svr@gw1.masterhost.ru] has joined #lisp 15:24:57 jdz: cl-pdf can parse PDFs, but that's only a small part of the job of rasterizing one. 15:25:46 i'd say the way to go would be to use a library (which was it, libpoppler?) 15:26:27 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has joined #lisp 15:26:52 Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:27:18 sykopomp: what would you do with the PNG/TIFF after you got it? 15:27:45 -!- Guthur [c0c1f50f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.193.245.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:29:17 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:30:53 -!- dlowe_g [~dlowe@74.125.59.113] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:30:58 -!- necroforest [~jarred@pool-96-249-147-66.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: necroforest] 15:31:39 Xach: I want to generate first-page thumbnails. 15:32:49 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.83.75.103] has joined #lisp 15:33:09 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:35:09 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 15:35:19 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Client Quit] 15:35:27 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 15:36:59 Spion__ [~spion@79.125.200.150] has joined #lisp 15:37:17 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 15:37:20 necroforest [~jarred@pool-96-249-147-66.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:22 sykopomp: use imagemagick (convert) 15:38:58 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:39:58 -!- workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:40:03 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:40:38 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:40:44 sykopomp: is that supposed to be useful, or just look interesting? 15:41:00 workthrick [~mathrick@130.226.87.177] has joined #lisp 15:41:00 -!- sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:41:38 tayloj [~tayloj@2620:0:2820:1400:225:ff:feec:9f30] has joined #lisp 15:42:08 sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 15:42:40 drdo``` [~user@93.108.205.91] has joined #lisp 15:42:47 splittist2: what do you mean? The thumbnails should be large enough (and high quality enough) to be able to get a sense of what the document is... 15:43:08 as far as whether it's a good idea or not: employer wants it, and I don't see anything wrong with it :) 15:43:24 pavelludiq [57f63ac1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 15:43:45 -!- TDT [~user@74.115.254.25] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:44:28 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c-3c90e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 15:44:38 sykopomp: Fair enough, but my experience is that such things either show the book cover (better scraped from Amazon (: ), a typewritten title page, something that shows it's a 2 column article, or irrelevant copyright material. 15:44:57 -!- workthrick [~mathrick@130.226.87.177] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:45:45 workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 15:46:37 splittist2: ah, so pregenerate one of those, and use it at random! 15:46:41 -!- splittist2 [~splittist@66-80.3-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: splittist2] 15:48:35 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:48:49 *nyef* occasionally runs into badly-generated pdfs with blank first pages. 15:49:19 -!- derekv [~derekv@c-68-62-78-203.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:49:58 derekv [~derekv@c-68-62-78-203.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:51:34 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.12] has joined #lisp 15:52:21 *Xach* remembers when Quicktime Player turned all shiny and showed a pane of movie file thumbnails that were almost always completely black, pre-fade-in frames. 15:52:39 Xach: haha, true 15:52:39 -!- necroforest [~jarred@pool-96-249-147-66.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: necroforest] 15:53:16 I still wonder how some programs choose the frame to use for thumbnail (some seem to use "random") 15:54:19 pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:08 *sykopomp* finds that lisp-magick has example code to do -exactly- this. 15:55:41 http://www.nil.at/software/lisp-magick.html jmc bless quicklisp. 15:55:44 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:56:29 rfg [~rfg@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:58:21 necroforest [~jarred@pool-96-249-147-66.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:09 pnq [~nick@host-176.ssu.portsmouth.oh.us] has joined #lisp 16:02:47 MoALTz_ [~no@92.9.76.35] has joined #lisp 16:04:05 Bronsa [~brace@host62-182-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:04:37 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:04:41 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.8.152.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:07:16 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 16:07:24 algorist_ [~quassel@host253-35-dynamic.59-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:07:42 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7567aa.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:59 -!- algorist [~quassel@host2-226-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:08:25 -!- Posterdati [~tapioca@87.10.226.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:08:32 -!- chr`` [~user@148.122.202.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:08:53 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.12] has joined #lisp 16:10:40 -!- tayloj [~tayloj@2620:0:2820:1400:225:ff:feec:9f30] has left #lisp 16:10:51 Wha...? Bounding rectangles are volatile, but have no defined setters? 16:11:55 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:11:58 -!- redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:11:58 I can somewhat see the logic here for bounding rectangles that are not STANDARD-BOUNDING-RECTANGLEs, and the motivation for mutating them, but... eesh. 16:12:07 nyef: your commentary these past few days makes me wonder if CLIM is really the way to go. 16:12:41 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:12:42 above and beyond it being your time, so your choice. :) 16:13:16 Fade: you need to start somewhere 16:13:27 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:14:16 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 16:15:10 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:15:34 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-179-3.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:17:30 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:19:37 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:20:15 Posterdati [~tapioca@host253-35-dynamic.59-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:22:59 -!- longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:23:29 longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has joined #lisp 16:23:40 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:25:26 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:25:36 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.41.171.195.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Quit: gone] 16:25:38 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:26:10 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:29:43 sykopomp: cool 16:32:42 -!- bad_alloc [~bad_alloc@HSI-KBW-085-216-109-135.hsi.kabelbw.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 16:33:04 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:33:16 chr`` [~user@148.122.202.244] has joined #lisp 16:34:19 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:34:50 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:12 -!- gor[e] [~svr@gw1.masterhost.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:38:52 ok, the asdf looping bug is fixed now 16:38:58 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:38:59 sykopomp: which dependencies did you have to install to get the cffi bindings to work? 16:39:28 -!- necroforest [~jarred@pool-96-249-147-66.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: necroforest] 16:39:33 yay stassats 16:39:39 -!- Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@1807ds2-noe.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:39:42 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.12] has joined #lisp 16:40:25 mippymoe [~mippiemoe@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:40 necroforest [~jarred@pool-96-249-147-66.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:08 -!- mippymoe [~mippiemoe@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:42:25 -!- necroforest [~jarred@pool-96-249-147-66.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:42:29 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-hishptumvqvsaoab] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:43:26 Okay, here's a question: Are X pointer event and window geometry coordinates defined in terms of pixels, or some other geometry that maps to pixels? 16:43:41 device coordinates, no? 16:43:45 mippymoe [~mippymoe@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:13 nyef: For X, it's pixels. 16:44:20 -!- mippymoe [~mippymoe@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:44:23 Hrm... Right, device coordinates. 16:44:38 I may have an interesting special case here, then. 16:44:45 necroforest [~jarred@pool-96-249-147-66.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:49 I'm wondering, are you asking about the clim side of things, or about the X side of things? 16:44:54 nyef: a device coordinate is always the same as a pixel. Unless everything has significantly changed since I was doing a lot of X development. 16:45:18 because there may be different vocabularies in use here (: 16:45:20 I'm right on the border. 16:45:23 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:45:45 mippymoe [~mippymoe8@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:53 Consider the case of a CLIM RECTANGLE when COORDINATE is (SIGNED-BYTE 16). 16:46:11 This rectangle -includes- its boundary. 16:46:18 -!- mippymoe [~mippymoe8@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:47:06 But when you render it to pixels, the bottom and right edges are excluded from the shape. 16:47:11 mippymoe89 [~mippymoe8@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:25 Harag [~Harag@dsl-242-249-57.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:47:25 (Because the decision point for actually drawing a pixel is the mid-point of the pixel) 16:47:31 Hrm. 16:47:39 That can't be right, either. 16:47:58 That's the little-geometric-square model for pixels, which is wrong. 16:49:37 Anyway, what I'm looking at is that if the coordinates for pointer-tracking and window geometry are by pixel centers, then the pointer position has to be x + 1/2, for some integer x. 16:51:20 spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-72-5.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:52:21 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:53:56 dysinger [~dysinger@209.220.223.36.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 16:53:59 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:54:38 -!- dysinger [~dysinger@209.220.223.36.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:54:45 dysinger [~dysinger@209.220.223.36.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:49 -!- dysinger [~dysinger@209.220.223.36.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:55:13 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@92.9.76.35] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:55:43 MoALTz [~no@92.9.76.35] has joined #lisp 16:57:57 Anyone know of any channels where mathematicians hang out? 16:58:20 in #math 16:58:36 Or, if you are a mathematician, do you know why the exact cover problem is defined in terms of finding a subcollection of a collection of subsets of X rather than a subset of a set of subsets of X. 16:58:42 #octave, #math-software, #maxima, #r 16:58:54 homie: Thanks. 16:59:13 gigamonkey: to avoid confusion with sets and subsets. 16:59:28 collection, family, set, ... 16:59:29 -!- bubo [~bubo@178-190-147-63.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:59:48 In my world it's defined as an integer linear program. 17:00:26 pkhuong: what's your world? 17:00:57 operations research, mathematical optimisation. 17:01:08 bubo [~bubo@91-114-176-119.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 17:02:56 So the #math guys tell me "collection" is a synonym for "set" in math land. 17:03:16 yup. 17:03:54 -!- mippymoe89 [~mippymoe8@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:03:54 -!- necroforest [~jarred@pool-96-249-147-66.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: necroforest] 17:03:58 Wow. Using lisp-magick with the create-thumbnail example made that task incredibly easy. Thumbs-up for it, if y'all need to generate thumbnails for anything. 17:04:11 gigamonkey: usually you talk about sets of elements and collections of sets. 17:04:31 Dodek: so I'm coming to understand. 17:05:10 gigamonkey: did someone submit a piece on Algorithm X to CQ? 17:05:24 -!- alfa_y_omega_ [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:06:41 alfa_y_omega_ [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #lisp 17:06:42 -!- chr`` [~user@148.122.202.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:07:14 sykopomp: which deps did you install to get the cffi bindings to work? 17:07:39 pkhuong: I'm writing one. 17:07:45 yroeht [yroeht@server5.tonbnc.fr] has joined #lisp 17:07:53 I have imagemagick installed, but cffi is looking for libMagickWand.so which isn't on my system. 17:08:48 Fade: "apt-file search libMagickWand.so". apt-file has saved my quicklispy bacon so much. 17:09:03 ah, duh. thanks Xach 17:09:31 Xach: what do you do on OS X? Do you use Fink or Ports or something? Or download the bits the old fashioned way? 17:09:51 chr`` [~user@148.122.202.244] has joined #lisp 17:10:06 orivej [~orivej@host-52-152-66-217.spbmts.ru] has joined #lisp 17:10:19 pkhuong: actually I'm writing about Dancing Links, which of course, includes Algorithm X. 17:10:46 joachifm [~joachim@212.7.195.193] has joined #lisp 17:10:50 fun! 17:10:55 gigamonkey: I don't use OS X for Quicklisp build testing, and in general I don't use libraries that require foreign libraries. 17:11:23 -!- spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-72-5.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 17:13:32 morning 17:13:34 well, that fixed the problem forthwith. 17:14:00 Hun` [~hun@95-90-10-28-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 17:14:14 sykopomp: can't you just use opticl for that? 17:14:27 Hello slyrus__. 17:14:31 here's a video of an A380 clipping the tail of a CRJ-700 at JFK yesterday. If you think you're having a bad day at work, watch this and it will put your troubles in perspective. <--- hahaha 17:14:48 p_l|backup: where ? 17:15:18 howdy nyef 17:16:07 fe[nl]ix: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2StZVDUck9M (taken from a Blog slightly related to Lisp) 17:17:02 p_l|backup: Happened a while back, didn't it? 17:17:07 video removed 17:17:17 yeah, that's a youtube failure. 17:18:13 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayCWSm1f9qk 17:18:25 pretty cool :D 17:18:32 -!- Harag [~Harag@dsl-242-249-57.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:18:36 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:18:42 slyrus__: So, you have two non-overlapping adjacent child windows. Neither child window has a direct mirror. They actually touch, so they both contain the points along their common border, but they don't overlap so the intersection of the two regions is +nowhere+. A mouse click occurs on a pixel on the leftmost edge of the right window. How does CLIM know which sheet to deliver the event to? 17:18:58 -!- chr`` [~user@148.122.202.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:19:42 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:20:36 (More fun: CLIM specifies a "pixels are roughly square" drawing model.) 17:21:01 chr`` [~user@148.122.202.244] has joined #lisp 17:22:41 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 17:23:38 slyrus__: I don't know. Can OptiCL do it? 17:23:58 (defun make-thumbnail-image (file image &key (y 128) (x 128) (pad t)) (write-image-file file (opticl::fit-image-into image y x :pad pad))) 17:24:22 except the opticl:: is no longer need around fit-image-into 17:24:33 does that work for multipage pdfs? 17:24:43 nyef: hrm... 17:24:48 flip a coin? 17:24:56 sykopomp: huh? 17:25:06 no, that's just for a single image 17:25:11 slyrus__: I'm trying to generate thumbnails for pdf files. 17:25:33 oh, never mind then... 17:25:36 well, not trying, the deed is done :) 17:25:44 slyrus__: While a pixel is "addressed" by its upper-left corner, the "decision point" for rendering it is its center. Thus, the obvious solution is to bias the pointer position. 17:25:49 opticl doesn't read pdfs 17:26:04 imagemagick is quite cool 17:26:40 I'm attempting to figure out a way to disallow this solution or to prevent it from working under some not-entirely-unreasonable set of circumstances. 17:26:46 once you figure out the correct inputs, maybe the cl binding makes that part less painful 17:27:10 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 17:28:23 nyef, is there a z-ordering? 17:29:01 ezakimak: Not a relevant one, the windows don't actually overlap. 17:29:54 sykopomp: blog it! blog it! 17:30:15 I guess I don't understand the question then. if they don't overlap, doesn't that mean any event over a pixel applies to exactly one them already? 17:31:05 -!- chr`` [~user@148.122.202.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:31:05 The horizontal "device coordinate" for the left side of the right window is the same as for the right side of the left window. 17:31:24 When actually rendered, the right-side window gets the pixels. 17:31:34 is there a lispy pdf renderer? 17:31:38 But when queried based on the "address" of the pixels, both windows claim ownership. 17:31:51 cl-pdf? 17:32:00 slyrus__: no. 17:32:11 oh, you mean displaying 17:32:29 stassats`: that generates pdf 17:32:35 chr`` [~user@148.122.202.244] has joined #lisp 17:32:43 Ah! Heh. 17:32:45 that sounds like they overlap--they are sharing a line of pixels by definition 17:32:49 Okay, figured out how to break it. 17:32:50 yeah, parsing, drawing to some offscreen buffer, something like that... 17:33:02 slyrus__: i went "rendering text into pdf" 17:33:21 ezakimak: No, because the "decision point" for rendering a pixel is the middle of the pixel, while the "address" is the top-left corner of the pixel. 17:33:34 sounds like a disconnect then 17:33:46 Xach: you here? 17:33:58 if the address is the top-left, I'd say the left window should win 17:34:10 but if the right window is what is displaying, the user should get what they click on 17:34:29 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:34:37 Yeah, clearly the right window should get the event. 17:34:43 loke: Hi. 17:35:27 hello Xach 17:35:36 epitome of a corner case =) 17:35:43 And I've found a scenario in which things still break down: If COORDINATE is an integer type, you can't position the cursor on the center of a pixel. 17:35:55 Xach: I was going to ask you if you were putting cl-mpi into ql, but then I realised the project seems abandonded 17:36:08 loke: Are you sure you don't mean "perfected"? 17:36:28 Xach: well, possibly 17:36:36 vsedach was blogging about that system late last year. 17:36:50 loke, I can recommend 0MQ if you want a message passing lib 17:36:55 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-mbdfkjaklrqlxqbl] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:36:55 Xach: ok, so the question still stands then :-) You putting it in there? 17:36:57 there is a CL binding 17:37:25 Guthur: well, MPI and MQ have rather different uses :) 17:37:42 p_l|backup, it's not an MQ 17:37:49 most confusing name every to be honest 17:37:52 -!- xan_ [~xan@205.158.58.41.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:37:54 ever* 17:38:03 being the curious person I am, I tried to quickload zeromq 17:38:05 it's more like 0MQ as in no MQ 17:38:22 got an interesing error: "Error detected during zlib decompression: Header missing magic values 1F,8B (got 21,E0 instead)! 17:38:22 [Condition of type QL-GUNZIPPER::GZIP-DECOMPRESSION-ERROR]" 17:38:24 Guthur: 0MQ is one, at least was last time I checked. Well, MQ in the sense AMQP and similar 17:38:31 corrupt archive? 17:38:46 If the boundary is actually smack-dab on the mid-line, then the right window wins, by fiat (per CLIM II, 12.4, the second list item after paragraph three) 17:39:02 p_l|backup, no I can guarantee it is not an MQ 17:39:07 az [~az@p4FE4ED77.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:12 you could build an MQ if you want 17:39:18 -!- az [~az@p4FE4ED77.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 17:39:33 lbc__ [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 17:39:34 mfish__ [4b55018c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.85.1.140] has joined #lisp 17:39:37 I going by the definition as of an MQ as something with a broker, with queues and topics 17:39:38 That said, I'm looking for a message-passing lib, and not an MQ 17:39:44 this is not ZeroMQ 17:39:48 splittist2 [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 17:40:03 ZeroMQ is better thought of as Sockets with Sugar 17:40:22 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:40:30 interesting 17:40:49 loke: I had no plans to do it, because nobody told me about it until now. 17:41:07 Xach: any idea of the error I got ql'in zeromq? 17:41:43 -!- compmstr [~compmstr@adsl-074-185-008-197.sip.clt.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:41:51 loke: That's a new one to me. I can't reproduce - can you? Does it happen over and over? 17:42:03 yep 17:42:14 Could you please paste the backtrace? 17:42:39 Xach: where have all the non-xach lisp bloggers gone? 17:42:40 tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #lisp 17:42:44 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:42:47 -!- tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [Changing host] 17:42:47 tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has joined #lisp 17:42:59 loke, if you are interested there is a guide with lots of nice recipes and examples in most languages, here -> http://zguide.zeromq.org/page:all 17:43:15 Long time passing 17:44:16 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:44:20 http://paste.lisp.org/display/121764 17:44:49 -!- leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:44:57 Vernor Vinge uses Emacs. Who knew? 17:45:03 http://www.norwescon.org/archives/norwescon33/vingeinterview.htm 17:45:09 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:10 loke: the error is missing. 17:45:41 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:46:07 loke: Looks to me like trivial-garbage-20101006-darcs.tgz is corrupt. Removing it might do the trick. 17:46:15 loke: that is, your local copy is. 17:46:55 I added an annotation 17:46:59 I'll try removing the file 17:47:48 awesome. now it worked 17:48:18 Xach: wouldn't it be a nice feature if QL automatically deleted files if it noticed they were corrupt 17:48:19 ? 17:48:24 or at least provided it as a restart? 17:48:59 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 17:49:04 anyone on hacker news? http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2514415 17:49:14 I'm trying to promote a startup 17:49:50 cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 17:49:58 where would I start to figure out how to access the linux system calls/std c library calls from lisp? (such as select() poll() etc) 17:50:13 mfish__: is it any good? does it use lisp? 17:50:36 ezakimak - I've been pointed to iolib for the sorts of things I suspect you want. 17:50:36 ezakimak: what CL are you using? 17:50:37 ezakimak: have you tried iolib? 17:50:39 HG` [~HG@93.192.84.65] has joined #lisp 17:51:03 carlocci [~nes@93.37.208.147] has joined #lisp 17:51:05 i'm still learning the language--but gathering resources for what I think I'm gonna need for what I want to do 17:51:12 i think I'm gonna use sbcl 17:51:17 that's what I'm using right now 17:51:31 Do you want more syscall access than just asynch networking? 17:51:34 SBCL has the SB-POSIX for low-level access 17:51:35 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@e196-036.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 17:51:41 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Client Quit] 17:51:48 http://www.cliki.net/IOlib 17:52:39 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:52:41 i'm not sure exactly what i'll need yet, but i'm toying w/the idea of creating an async event loop for hutchentoot (or write my own simple web server) 17:52:52 yeah, iolib sounds right. 17:52:58 so async socket io, and also maybe aio for file access 17:53:17 ezakimak: now, if only AIO was working correctly... 17:53:27 aio in linux works great 17:53:37 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:37 it's very poorly documented, however 17:54:01 ezakimak: when you run it through kernel. So you have to avoid glibc, which sometimes routes you through its own, thread-based AIO simulation. 17:54:05 Heh. "Very poorly documented" seems to be the normal state of affairs for a lot of fun stuff. 17:54:06 very confusingly documented I might add, because glibc has it's own aio library (which it implements via emulation w/threads) 17:54:14 Harag [~Harag@dsl-242-249-57.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:54:15 also, you get the wondrs of working with signals 17:54:20 billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 17:54:20 ezakimak: you'd use special hunchentoot handlers for aio transfers? 17:54:20 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 17:54:22 i figured out all the native linux aio stuff a while ago and used it in a c++ project a while back 17:54:28 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Changing host] 17:54:28 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 17:54:33 not sure, I haven't even begun looking at hutchentoot yet 17:54:39 ezakimak: ...since the normal ones kinda assumes a thread to handle a connection 17:55:02 funnily enough, Windows NT might have one of the sanest AIO apis in popular systems... but it descended from one of the "kings" of Async APIs, after all 17:55:27 -!- lanthan [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:55:28 yeah, there's two completely unrelated set of aio calls, that unfortunately have overlap in their names 17:55:37 so digging through the man pages is a pita to unravel it all 17:55:46 i had to actually dig into the kernel sources to figure it out 17:56:09 long live open sources :) 17:56:37 -!- mfish__ [4b55018c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.85.1.140] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:56:50 having a hunchentoot that used less threads would certainly be useful. I kinda doubt it can handle massive load as it's implemented today 17:57:04 (I could be wrong though, anyone used it in a high-load environment?) 17:57:12 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Client Quit] 17:57:14 um, I believe it is the basis for the ITA reservation thing 17:57:23 which is high-availability, low-latency and stuff 17:57:28 antifuchs: really? 17:57:30 wow 17:57:36 not sure though - you'll have to ask H4ns whether that is really true (: 17:57:45 That's make it easier for me to sell the idea of using CL for a project at work I'm doing right now. 17:57:46 wasn't somebody gonna plug in some sort of epoll/kqueue thing into hunchentoot? 17:57:57 I do know ITA sponsored a bunch of work on it, especially performance-related stuff 17:58:11 Hrm, damn. I missed a bit. Having the pointer position on the pixel centers doesn't solve the problem, as the discrimination is done in the geometry layer, which doesn't know about the whole pixel rendering thing. :-/ 17:58:20 H4ns' stated opinion IIUC is that each HT instance should be single-threaded, with a massive load balancer in front them. :-) 17:58:20 or foom or dlowe? (: 17:58:42 I've been using it quite heavily for the last week, implementing a generic utilit to handle HTML5 EventSource 17:58:43 loke: you can also always ask fusss, who did some work on making Hunchentoot a high-throughput system :) 17:58:55 (for handling very heavy load - Ad server) 17:58:56 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 17:59:20 fusss has been MIA for awhile. 17:59:20 lichtblau: sounds like Rails setup :) 17:59:32 damn these hackers, spending too much time actually hacking. 17:59:42 Fade: he showed up recently... with a web server related question :D 17:59:47 p_l|backup: I think what you've told me is enough. After all, the application I'm doing is an internal system for a client, with no more than a few hundred (a thousand or two at the absolute extreme) users 17:59:49 (how to handle SSLthe best) 18:00:23 loke: just put an efficient reverse proxy/load balancer in front, and if you start running out of power add second server... :D 18:00:32 I like how essential sb-concurrency tests are simply commented out on Darwin, according to the comment because they hang. 18:00:34 I'm sure I can just add Linux to that conditional, right? 18:00:42 (might be tricky for CPS-based frameworks) 18:01:07 that's a waste of resources if HT could be made to handle more load by being async 18:01:11 p_l|backup: well, that's where a message passing library may come in handy :-) 18:01:14 rme [~rme@pool-70-105-113-99.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:16 most of the lisp frameworks that tie back to HT are continuation based. 18:01:40 so that means they need persistence to the same HT instance 18:02:41 ezakimak: well, I prefer to place SSL stuff in front of the actual servers, and they can be faster than HT in serving static assets 18:03:22 -!- Jasko3 [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:03:28 jmbr [~jmbr@157.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:05:50 Thanks guys for all your help 18:05:55 Time to go to sleep now 18:06:24 *Fade* wonders what timezone loke is in 18:06:27 sure, lighttpd or ngnx in front for static + ssl 18:06:29 SGT 18:06:36 =) 18:06:36 02:00 right now 18:06:50 -!- chr`` [~user@148.122.202.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:07:12 *nod* 18:07:15 do you use an ssl accelerator? or just scale your ssl horizontally? 18:08:07 fade: 1° 22 N, 103° 48 Ö 18:08:27 1°17N 103°50E 18:08:30 I worked at one place that had SSL accelerator. Might be worth it if you get enough traffic or use SSL for tunnelling 18:08:35 (actually... damn swedish wikipedia) 18:08:50 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:09:12 loke: you forgot altitude from mean sea level. 18:09:21 p_l|backup: damn 18:09:30 I believe I'm about 30 metres ASL right now 18:09:53 -!- Davsebamse [~davse@94.127.49.1] has quit [Quit: Davsebamse] 18:09:59 so, now we have missile address of loke :D 18:10:14 p_l|backup: that's fine :-) 18:10:33 a single low-yield warhead can wipe out the entire country, it's quite small 18:10:38 180 Island Club Rd, Singapore 18:10:44 oh ok 18:10:58 my address is not exactly there. that's the coordinates given my wikipedia 18:11:07 p_l|backup, ditto for me. honestly, I don't think dedicated ssl accelerators are worth it--just get a system w/a via cpu w/padlock or the newest core i7 w/the aes functions and openssl will use them for you 18:11:15 So, who's going to order stuff on loke's credit cards once he's gone to bed?... 18:11:21 *nod* 18:11:31 loke: would 300kT suffice? Then it's a question of single french fighter jet ;-) 18:11:31 splittist2: I do have a PSN account :-) 18:11:46 OK lah 18:11:48 p_l|backup: what's the destruction radius of 300 kT? 18:12:37 don't remember right now, it's French "army killer" (designed to destroy invading armies, not cities) 18:13:30 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@82.143.220.223] has joined #lisp 18:13:32 http://www.wagingpeace.org/articles/2005/11/00_starr_effects-of-300-kiloton-detonation.htm 18:14:00 according to this, you could survive about 5 km away from ground zero 18:14:46 -!- enupten [~neptune@117.192.64.201] has quit [Quit: quitting...] 18:15:02 lichtblau: I was pleasantly surprised to see that some of the commented out tests actually passed thanks to some recent-ish changes (nanosleep bug workaround maybe?) 18:16:07 loke: the funny thing is that cities are "last choice" targets for any significant nuclear power 18:16:29 p_l|backup: that's not so strange 18:16:30 what are the first choices? military bases? 18:16:31 mippymoe89 [~mippymoe8@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:16:40 ezakimak: ICBM silos 18:17:04 p_l|backup: makes sense 18:17:10 p_l|backup: that leaves the subs 18:17:16 those are the scary ones 18:17:21 at least that's a common target inside USA, because few super-heavy warheads can wipe oout the entire Minuteman force 18:17:22 SBDs 18:17:47 loke: yes, but SSBNs have significantly smaller capabilities per warhead 18:17:49 nuclear war is OT. this isn't viet nam. there are rules. 18:18:01 :) 18:18:28 gentlemen, you can't fight here! This is the lisp room. 18:19:05 *p_l|backup* recently wanted to interface some windows-working lisp with Orbiter, to write simulation of an Abh destroyer or cruiser... then see if he could add simulation of the weaponry and its effects on surface :) 18:19:06 trivial-wargame? cl-armageddon? 18:19:10 hankhero [~Adium@217.174.82.86] has joined #lisp 18:19:29 p_l|backup: that sounds interesting. 18:19:29 splittist2: cl-power 18:19:33 do it :) 18:20:15 Now I'm sleeping 18:20:17 :-) 18:20:19 Fade: autopilot stuff might be actually useful in job hunting :) 18:20:33 why tie it specifically to windows? 18:20:43 Fade: Orbiter works on Windows 18:20:56 ah. i'm not familiar with Orbiter. 18:21:31 Fade: it's a pretty fun, realistic spacecraft simulator 18:22:12 unfortunately, unlike certain other ones, it's neither portable nor has non-DLL-based extension mechanism 18:22:41 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C36A8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:22:52 what about something like xpilot? 18:22:53 Ragnaroek_ [~chatzilla@p5B0C36A8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:05 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:23:25 last time I've seen it, it was a simple multiplayer 2D game? 18:23:48 i thought xpilot was a flight sim. 18:23:57 multiplayer 2d. 18:24:06 Nowhere close to capable of simulating Frybarec Gloer Gor Bari spaceships :) 18:24:23 ah 18:24:36 I see flight gear: www.flightgear.org 18:25:34 i never did play xpilot--heard it was fun though 18:25:47 yeah, but flightgear is mainly about atmospheric flight (X-Plane is more capable than it in terms of space flight or at least variable planets, as it supports flying on mars) 18:26:10 ezakimak: it's fun, but the best place to play is in university that has mainly unix workstations :/ 18:27:01 macrocat [~marmalade@99.192.106.126] has joined #lisp 18:27:14 -!- lundis [~lundis@dyn56-304.yok.fi] has quit [Quit: Fear not, I will return] 18:27:14 i saw other kids playing 18:27:20 we did play netris a lot 18:27:33 ezakimak: though nowadays it also has iOS client, so... 18:27:48 -!- joachifm [~joachim@212.7.195.193] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:29:22 still, in order to properly simulate a world from Crest/Banner of the Stars, I'd have to write my own simulator. If not for the graphics, it wouldn't be so hard with Lisp :) 18:32:39 (though planespace might be interesting... you are in a sphere rolling over 2D plane, but inside sphere you have 3D world that is centered around the ship generating the sphere, and the coordinates of the 2D circle your sphere forms in the planespace map linearly to spherical ones) 18:32:41 x-plane looks cool. 18:32:54 Fade: it's also definitely cheaper than MSFS :) 18:33:10 i was pretty sure there was a decent open source flight simulator, but I can't seem to find anything but flight gear now. 18:34:19 -!- HG` [~HG@93.192.84.65] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:34:21 i thought flight gear was it 18:34:50 palomino 18:36:50 flight gear cvs seems permaently offline. 18:37:45 slyrus__: cool. Do I need a Mac to test that port, BTW, or is there actually a free Darwin that can run it? 18:38:09 -!- mydik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:38:19 good question, not sure what the answer is... 18:38:31 mydik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:53 lichtblau: if it doesn't need any GUI etc. then it should run on Darwin... 18:38:57 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:42:12 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Quit: eugu] 18:44:41 -!- zarus [~zarus@129.89.198.245] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:44:58 Is there an actual, usable, maintained darwin system these days still? 18:46:57 -!- Ragnaroek_ [~chatzilla@p5B0C36A8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:47:31 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 18:49:44 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:50:05 hmm. interrupt-thread broken. I wonder whether it's worth finding out why, or whether I should just rip out pseudo-atomic entirely and see if works again afterwards. 18:50:25 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 18:51:37 markskilbeck [~mark@host217-43-219-63.range217-43.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:51:37 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@host217-43-219-63.range217-43.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 18:51:37 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 18:51:55 building a mental model of how safepoints should work might be easier than building a model of how p-a _and_ safepoints work and interact 18:51:56 lichtblau: seems to me pthread is broken wrt signals on darwin. 18:52:26 pkhuong: good to know. I need to get things going on Linux before even trying Darwin though. 18:52:27 -!- alfa_y_omega_ [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:52:36 lichtblau: that was one reason to go with thread-local pages, I think. 18:52:55 I guess you could just increment IP and resume from the handler. 18:53:58 yeah, we don't really want to trigger a safepoint for all threads just because one of them had a signal, right? 18:54:38 right. 18:54:59 alfa_y_omega_ [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #lisp 18:56:47 although -- how important is non-semi-synchronous signal efficiency? 18:56:50 Except for SIGPROF, we shouldn't be getting too many signals, right? 18:57:12 well, we do have interrupt-thread 18:57:31 but otherwise, re signals per se, I'm not convinced we have to expose the posix model directly. 18:57:50 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:58:30 *if* we have threads, polling or waiting on a message queue seems doable. And we could just hack sprof support in the runtime. 18:59:12 why would you poll? 18:59:12 OliverUv_ [~gandhi@195.159.235.178] has joined #lisp 18:59:20 if you have threads just block, no? 18:59:21 "it not having signals is good enough for windows, it should be good enough for everyone else!" 18:59:56 -!- alfa_y_omega_ [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:00:39 well, the recommended way to mix signals and threads nowadays seems to be a dedicated signal handling thread, or even just signalfd. 19:00:51 alfa_y_omega_ [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #lisp 19:01:17 lichtblau: You know, if you had said "VMS" instead of "windows", I'd have considered it a much stronger argument. 19:01:28 nyef: VMS had signals 19:01:41 heh. 19:02:01 p_l|backup: Really? Hunh. Don't remember seeing them in "VMS Internals and Data Structures" for 4.4. 19:02:03 VMS isn't littering the codebase with more and more #ifdef LISP_FEATURE_WIN32 though. 19:02:06 nyef: ASTs 19:02:22 nyef: andCHF 19:02:27 Ah, okay. 19:02:47 Thought ASTs were primarily synchronous with respect to syscalls. 19:03:06 it just happens that VMS had a definitely more capable and friendly signal system, being designed for concurrect use instead of "oh shit" situations 19:04:20 nyef: no, ASTs were fully asynchronous, though a common use of them would seem like synchronous, namely the "set AST handler, post it, then put process into hibernation state" 19:04:51 Ah, because they could fire on any return transition from the kernel? 19:05:10 I used to know the actual names of some of this stuff, too. :-/ 19:06:21 nyef: I think they could fire at any point - most VMS calls were asynchronous as well 19:06:57 you had to explicitly call sync. operations, like "wait on condition flag" or something like that 19:08:02 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-213-115.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:09:19 Certainly, most of the I/O stuff was asynchronous. 19:09:29 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 19:09:38 ... and I'm suddenly reminded of dragonfly bsd for some reason. 19:10:20 nyef: and given that most of anything important was I/O related, it made near everything async. 19:10:40 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has left #lisp 19:11:11 p_l|backup, interesting 19:11:21 Right, in most cases for any OS kernel the system calls that don't "complete" immediately are I/O calls. 19:11:36 were there any durability issues created by that model? 19:11:39 nyef: it also had quite unified I/O system, iirc 19:11:41 Most of the non-I/O calls complete immediately. 19:11:48 ezakimak: yes. It made one helluva cluster 19:12:02 Oh, yes. I do remember some of that. And the filesystem stuff, and... 19:12:15 cause for a transaction you gotta know when it's op has completed 19:12:19 (there were interrelated things that got quite a boost from async-style handling of everything) 19:12:20 Text files had a fun format, too. :-) 19:12:48 ezakimak: you did get that information, either through AST or through Wait on condition (which is available in NT, btw) 19:13:25 Bike [~arm_of_th@71-38-158-155.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:26 so there was no issue 19:13:44 (I recently beat up on mongodb over that--they have zero durability with their model) 19:13:55 and they just don't seem to get it 19:15:13 -!- alfa_y_omega_ [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:15:21 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 19:15:26 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:16:37 ... anyone interested in hiring uni dropout lisper? 19:16:51 >_> 19:17:12 alfa_y_omega_ [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #lisp 19:17:14 -!- hankhero [~Adium@217.174.82.86] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:17:47 (technically I can retake 3rd year... but I don't want to be a moneysink for family) 19:20:06 p_l|backup: pvt 19:23:01 -!- alfa_y_omega_ [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:24:01 alfa_y_omega_ [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #lisp 19:25:17 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:26:47 might be wise to pursue finishing, perhaps via night/online classes while you work (even if it takes longer) 19:27:03 ezakimak: true, and I considered that as well 19:27:03 Man, must remember that Python's (the language) optional arguments do *not* work like Common Lisp's. 19:27:04 it's just a line for the resume, but often it helps 19:27:24 hankhero [~Adium@c213-89-201-154.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:27:29 but still, anything that can coast me financially during retake year would be more than fine 19:29:46 p_l|backup: where are you at school? 19:30:01 oconnore: Scotland 19:31:02 but I can relocate, I think. 19:32:11 cool, i am graduating in ~1 week. 19:32:30 xan_ [~xan@199.83.221.5] has joined #lisp 19:34:01 Evious [~n_a@s64-180-62-209.bc.hsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:21 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 19:35:37 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-213-115.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:36:08 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:36:54 -!- hankhero [~Adium@c213-89-201-154.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:36:55 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-187-50.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:36:59 -!- Liera [~Liera@113.172.38.77] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:37:50 -!- billitch [~billitch@78.250.216.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:38:11 -!- longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:38:39 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 19:39:44 daniel_ [~daniel@p5B32641A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:50 cheezus1 [~Adium@69.196.171.160] has joined #lisp 19:40:00 daniel___ [~daniel@p5B32641A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:40:23 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:40:35 hankhero [~Adium@c213-89-201-154.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:41:08 -!- daniel___ [~daniel@p5B32641A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:41:20 -!- cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:42:25 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:42:56 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 19:44:13 -!- workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:44:33 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:45:46 *splittist2* wonders if he should finally try using iterate 19:46:40 "too hard to install" excuse is right out the window now 19:46:58 All Hail Quicklisp! 19:47:00 ;-) 19:48:46 was pretty painless on gentoo 19:48:51 -!- udzinari [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: zzzzzzZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzz] 19:50:34 http://funroll-loops.info/ 19:50:35 gentoo 19:50:44 *oconnore* likes iterate but doesn't see the problem with loop. 19:51:41 loop adds arbitrary syntax to a generally syntax-free language 19:53:11 loop adds no syntax. it still uses the cl reader. loop adds semantics to a language that has a wide range of semantics. 19:54:26 even iterate breaks from the classic (fn arg1 arg2 ...), it's all macroexpansion either way 19:54:50 jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-248.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:54:57 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-213-115.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:55:05 ChibaPet, so are you for or against gentoo? or just some of the mentality that linux x gentoo has bred? 19:56:04 Oh, I'm solidly against any sores-based distribution. I used to be a NetBSD person. Trying to maintain a system that requires compilation as part of its normal operation becomes a headache for production environments where you just want things to work. 19:56:20 the real optimization is USE="-kde -gnome " :) 19:56:47 gentoo is better than that. i *only* use gentoo in production for many reasons 19:56:53 Heh. I used to have a NetBSD box. Fun while it lasted, except for having to do kernel builds on an overnight basis. 19:56:59 it is trivial to set up your own binary repo 19:57:12 gor[e] [~svr@79.165.187.105] has joined #lisp 19:57:16 necroforest [~jarred@pool-96-249-147-66.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:22 it is much easier to administer than some other distros IMO 19:57:29 and much easier to keep lean 19:57:36 I find it much more flexible 19:57:50 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 19:57:50 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 19:57:50 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 19:58:05 hi 19:58:10 I'm glad it works well for you! 19:58:13 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C36A8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:59:04 heh, with some of the modern hardware compilation stops being tedious 19:59:18 nyef: having to? you were a developer or a -current machocist? :D 19:59:35 compilation is a non issue. package management and admin is always the issue imo 19:59:36 It's not a question of time, it's a question of internal consistency and breakage hosing you. 19:59:42 and portage is very nice 19:59:51 as good as apt imo 20:00:05 both of which are way better than rpm systems 20:00:21 i have a lot of netbsd in production, but kernel recompilation is no issue compared to dynamic linking and a number of other rather annoyances... 20:00:51 I use CentOS for work. RPM based. Nothing can beat that for boring reliability. Boring reliability is king. But anyway... 20:00:53 well, if everything is compiled on the same system, dynamic linking works--it's bin packages that have the risk there 20:01:14 what happens when something you want isn't in your repo? 20:01:33 It hasn't happened yet. 20:01:53 But in that case, I whip out Stow. 20:02:03 ecraven: dynamic linking buys me nothing but a constant source of pain in the arse. 3d-party stuff will break willy nilly in pkgsrc when you do system upgrades. the 1.4.x days were the days... 20:02:34 i haven't had a dynamic linking issue in years 20:03:09 this is OT, please stop 20:03:19 stis_ [~stis@host-90-235-197-135.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 20:06:53 -!- ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:07:15 -!- xan_ [~xan@199.83.221.5] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:07:18 ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has joined #lisp 20:07:35 sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:18 s0ber_ [~s0ber@111-240-168-232.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:11 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-171-155.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:10:22 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 20:10:39 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:12:00 xan_ [~xan@199.83.221.5] has joined #lisp 20:13:12 what was the original motivation to have if* macro? I jsut encountered that monstrosity in some old piece of code (our codebase used to run on allegro before CL became standard :D) and I don't get why it is there if there is cond etc 20:13:47 jkf likes it 20:14:03 jkf? 20:14:20 hypno: I actually have a patch or two in the NetBSD kernel source, for mac68k stuff. 20:14:46 nyef: cool. :) 20:14:58 Yeah, it was. Then the hardware started dying on me. 20:15:19 Plus, the big thing I wanted to get working ran aground of a minor bug in some assembly code. 20:15:31 freiksenet: see http://www.franz.com/~jkf/coding_standards.html 20:16:44 freiksenet: I believe it predates the CL standardization process so there was possibly at some point the chance of it being part of standard CL. 20:16:54 rme: so he supports that if* and opposes loop? 20:17:00 that's what I call double standards 20:17:14 is he a boss at allegro? 20:17:42 freiksenet: one of the founders and top hacker. 20:17:46 omg 20:17:56 metroid prime 20:18:02 and people trust those guys to be their implementation developers? 20:18:31 nah, just their triple store implementors 20:20:28 so is if* recommended or shunned? 20:20:36 gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-179-45-176.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:49 i think the majority dislike it. 20:21:14 if* looks dodgy to me 20:21:19 the logic in their reasoning makes sense to me 20:21:21 I would say any non-extendalbe and non-composable mini-language is kinda smelly 20:21:37 and if there is no real standard alternative to loop 20:21:56 (even though 99% of it's use cases should be replaces with map*) 20:22:02 I think I might actually not be too sad if, say, COND was the primitive conditional construct and IF was actually a mini language like IF*. 20:22:21 -!- Harag [~Harag@dsl-242-249-57.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:22:24 that if* is totally covered by cond and there is just no sense in having a non-composable minilangauge for it 20:22:27 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-179-47-161.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:22:58 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey 20:23:17 -!- salva [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: salva] 20:23:32 gigamonkey: While not exactly conforming, it would still fit without breaking code, I think 20:23:54 -!- Bahman [~bahman@2.144.250.248] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:24:01 so is if* in the language or something these guys added? 20:24:07 -!- derekv [~derekv@c-68-62-78-203.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:24:16 ezakimak: it's just a macro jkf wrote. 20:24:24 Soulman [~knute@250.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:24:49 The line between "in the language" and "a macro some dude wrote" wasn't always as clear as it is today. 20:25:28 derekv [~derekv@c-68-62-78-203.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:30 even now it's pretty artificial. 20:25:40 -!- necroforest [~jarred@pool-96-249-147-66.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: necroforest] 20:25:43 is it clear today Xach? 20:25:59 francogrex [~user@109.130.152.149] has joined #lisp 20:26:20 By "in the language" I mean "in a published standard" 20:26:20 Xach: hahaha 20:26:27 -!- Triplefault [~Mouse@adsl-72-145-215-164.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:26:30 for if*, it's very clear ((; 20:27:13 Actually, that's not what I mean, and I don't have time to clarify. 20:27:37 I *think* I've understood 20:27:42 thanks 20:27:48 so it's not found in cltlv2 20:28:05 nope 20:28:15 that's really what I was asking. 20:28:42 antifuchs: does anyone ever there at Franz besides jkf use it? 20:28:59 yes 20:29:08 Are *you* forced to use it? 20:29:10 I am not sure if I should be writing "we do" there 20:29:17 I am, sometimes 20:29:33 not very happy about it, but in some code people expect it 20:30:08 it's like DOs in SBCL ;) 20:30:15 *antifuchs* shudders 20:32:26 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-248.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:33:01 someday I will enforce my DO* coding standard on everyone 20:34:23 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:34:38 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-233-183-125.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:38 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-233-183-125.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:34:38 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 20:34:52 *Odin-* suspects GLaDOS is implemented with all the horrible coding conventions that nobody likes. 20:35:00 @hey 20:35:34 how do I search in a string a word and then delete that word in the string ? 20:35:49 necroforest [~jarred@pool-96-249-147-66.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:09 probably simplest to use cl-ppcre to perform the search and replace. 20:36:58 it's an addon ? 20:37:00 =.= 20:37:04 can I do it by myself ? 20:38:58 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.152.149] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:39:17 -!- ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has left #lisp 20:39:18 Harag [~Harag@dsl-242-247-11.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:39:19 morphism: (ql:quickload "cl-ppcre") 20:39:24 francogrex [~user@109.130.152.149] has joined #lisp 20:39:59 or you can write it yourself 20:40:39 =.= 20:40:53 yes, I am really want to know how to do it by myself 20:41:15 Why? 20:42:04 Meh. FIND, SUBSEQ, CONCATENATE, done. 20:42:23 *_3b* would have said SEARCh rather than FIND 20:42:34 how to modify a string in lisp ? 20:42:35 right, SEARCH, with-output-to-string, fun. 20:42:49 <_3b> and maybe MAKE-ARRAY/MAKE-STRING + REPLACE rather than CONCATENATE 20:42:53 -!- bubo [~bubo@91-114-176-119.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:43:42 hey ,can you make an example of with-output-to-string ? 20:43:54 -!- splittist2 [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:43:55 god, all those options instead of just satisfying the primal need to reduce every problem to string manipulation by using Perl? 20:44:04 (search "abc" "11111abc11111" :test #'string=) => 5 20:44:17 <_3b> cmm: well, they suggested cl-ppcre first :p 20:44:35 (subseq "11111abc11111" 5 8) => abc 20:44:51 _3b: fair enough :) 20:44:53 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 20:46:48 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:46:50 Bahman [~bahman@2.144.215.97] has joined #lisp 20:49:02 ... RUN-PROGRAM ? 20:49:46 nice, thanks oconnore , how about concatenate ? 20:49:49 <_3b> that one might get complicated if you need more than ASCII, good solution otherwise 20:49:59 splittist2 [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 20:49:59 what's output-type-spec ? 20:50:22 _3b: I just need a simple solution to replace a certain path in a string 20:50:58 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host62-182-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:52:24 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-179-3.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:52:32 -!- Spion__ [~spion@79.125.200.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:53:07 morphism: output-type-spec is a sequence type, for this you would use 'string 20:53:29 :P 20:53:31 (concatenate 'string "abc" "def") => "abcdef" 20:53:51 do you have a book? 20:54:04 and http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/Contents.htm 20:54:06 -!- necroforest [~jarred@pool-96-249-147-66.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: necroforest] 20:55:20 salva [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 20:56:40 _3b: why would that be a problem with non-ascii? 20:57:12 <_3b> oconnore: that was responding to nyef's suggestion of RUN-PROGRAM 20:57:16 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:57:18 oh, ok 20:57:47 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@82.143.220.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:57:51 Why? The streams should end up with a suitable external-format, surely? 20:58:21 necroforest [~jarred@pool-96-249-147-66.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:27 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 21:00:24 -!- necroforest [~jarred@pool-96-249-147-66.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:01:27 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-187-50.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 21:01:46 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:02:01 Spion__ [~spion@79.125.200.150] has joined #lisp 21:10:55 -!- Spion__ [~spion@79.125.200.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:11:56 -!- lnostdal [~Lars@213.80-202-59.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:12:09 -!- doc_who [~doc_who@138-78-106-96.resnet.smcm.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:12:16 lundis [~lundis@dyn56-304.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 21:12:23 lnostdal [~Lars@213.80-202-59.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 21:12:44 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@adsl-69-212-35-211.dsl.sfldmi.ameritech.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:13:16 -!- stis_ [~stis@host-90-235-197-135.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:17:32 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:17:39 brodo_ [~brodo@p5B025103.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:42 -!- brodo [~brodo@p5B022C57.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:19:42 -!- brodo_ is now known as brodo 21:19:53 -!- xan_ [~xan@199.83.221.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:23:36 necroforest [~jarred@pool-96-249-147-66.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:48 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-179-45-176.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:24:12 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 21:24:15 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-179-45-176.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:38 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c1d40.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:02 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:27:28 -!- necroforest [~jarred@pool-96-249-147-66.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:28:18 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:35 Okay, current conclusion on sheet regions and mouse events is to do the mid-pixel bias, to canonicalize the sheet regions to integral device coordinates while the sheet is grafted, and that this entire problem should have been caught during specification instead of years later. 21:29:58 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:31:11 anthracite [~anthracit@brln-4dbc5d69.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:38 markskilbeck [~mark@host86-136-238-16.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:32:38 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@host86-136-238-16.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 21:32:38 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 21:33:05 -!- Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:34:16 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 21:34:28 -!- L1SP [~wolfbytes@97.72.154.166] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 21:35:41 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:36:42 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c72ce0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:32 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:29 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-213-115.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:46:07 -!- gor[e] [~svr@79.165.187.105] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 21:46:17 gor[e] [~svr@79.165.187.105] has joined #lisp 21:48:46 -!- gor[e] [~svr@79.165.187.105] has quit [Client Quit] 21:49:07 gor[e] [~svr@79.165.187.105] has joined #lisp 21:50:17 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7567aa.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:51:31 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-170-98.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:54:02 Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:55:03 -!- milanj [~milanj_@212-200-194-87.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:56:00 convulsive [~convulsiv@129.133.193.182] has joined #lisp 22:00:20 -!- Soulman [~knute@250.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 22:01:13 ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:02:36 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:02:43 -!- Bahman [~bahman@2.144.215.97] has left #lisp 22:03:12 ocharles: did you get the haar transform working? 22:03:55 -!- jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.93] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:05:31 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:05:49 dmiles [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:37 atomx [~user@86.35.150.23] has joined #lisp 22:07:11 -!- hankhero [~Adium@c213-89-201-154.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:09:14 lanthan [~ze@p54B7DF87.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:23 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:10:11 -!- lanthan [~ze@p54B7DF87.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 22:11:06 -!- lnostdal [~Lars@213.80-202-59.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:11:50 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.152.149] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:11:51 <_3b> nyef: i think Xinput2 does subpixel mouse position, and there is also absolute coordinate devices 22:12:00 lnostdal [~Lars@213.80-202-59.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 22:12:20 francogrex [~user@109.130.152.149] has joined #lisp 22:12:22 _3b: Fortunately, CLX doesn't appear to support such extensions. :-P 22:12:22 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c1d40.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:12:23 rpg [~rpg@173-119-54-240.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:11 Hi, in sbcl how to format/print pi to X decimals? 22:13:20 <_3b> also multiple mice, multiple keyboards... dunno how that fits into clim model\ 22:13:34 <_3b> (and that isn't even getting into the multitouch stuff that isn't done yet) 22:13:35 francogrex: With a suitable FORMAT control, of course. 22:13:37 lanthan [~ze@p54B7DF87.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:49 yes nyef but which one :) 22:13:51 _3b: Actually, multiple pointers is fairly well catered to. 22:14:13 <_3b> francogrex: depending on how large X is, FORMAT, shell out to CLISP and set long-float bits, or implement some 'lots of digits of pi' algorithm 22:14:13 necroforest [~jarred@pool-96-249-147-66.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:19 francogrex: Same one as on any other implementation... 22:14:41 _3b: say to 30 decimals 22:15:13 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:15:16 ... does SBCL even -know- pi that far out? 22:15:19 <_3b> so about 2x digits of double, that counts sbcl out 22:15:39 well sbcl or any implementation 22:15:47 why not just store it as a string? 22:15:48 <_3b> clisp strategy should still work, or you could try one of the things for getting double-doubles on sbcl 22:15:59 it's a constant, and you want it as a string output... 22:16:23 note that it's only for "mathematical" curiosity and not any other useful purpose 22:16:51 ezakimak: you are talking to me? 22:16:51 you want to compute it? 22:17:00 yes 22:17:17 Yeah, just having a string constant with the digits would solve the problem as thus far described. 22:17:42 ezakimak: output pi to 30 digits, either from within or implenet it myself then 22:17:44 i can tell you right now to 50 decimals :) 22:17:46 <_3b> on clisp, something like (setf (ext:long-float-digits) 100), then PI 22:18:00 ezakimak: go ahead 22:18:22 3.141592653589723846.. ahh, I forget from there 22:18:24 *nyef* still likes the idea of scaling up long-float bits by adding more #\o characters to looong-float. 22:18:26 i used to have it to 50 22:18:45 missed a 93 in there 22:19:02 <_3b> clisp says 3.1415926535897932384626433832795028842L0 to 100 bits 22:19:23 *_3b* isn't sure why long-float-digits sets bits though 22:19:26 And, of course, you're assuming the special case of euclidean geometry. As soon as you move off the plane, PI starts changing. 22:20:21 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:22:35 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-170-98.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:22:59 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-170-98.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:25:52 found this: http://en.literateprograms.org/Pi_with_Machin%27s_formula_%28Lisp%29 22:26:37 just do (setf *print-base* pi), then pi will be just 10 22:27:09 no good want 30 at least 22:27:13 or 100 22:27:22 -!- ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has left #lisp 22:27:46 stassats`: *print-base* is constrained to a rather tight range. Integers from two through thirty-six, I believe. 22:27:59 (i know) 22:28:51 the 'lisp' in that link i showed is very weird 22:29:40 ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has joined #lisp 22:30:11 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:30:14 there's a closed formula for the nth digit of pi (in base 16) 22:30:55 http://www.math.hmc.edu/funfacts/ffiles/20010.5.shtml 22:31:57 francogrex: What's weird about it, other than the choice of toplevel? 22:32:29 (Okay, the syntax highlighting and web presentation is atrocious, but beyond that...) 22:32:40 like it was copied from python and the invocation wasn't changed 22:33:04 nyef: that's clearly a defect in CL. We should propose Real bases for CL3. 22:33:25 what about complex bases? 22:33:28 yes that part the python invocation 22:33:35 Ooh, quater-imaginary is fun. 22:33:40 stassats`: that's an issue to be discussed. 22:36:01 here: http://oldweb.cecm.sfu.ca/personal/jborwein/kanada_trillion.html 22:37:23 computing digits of pi is a very practical problem, in fact, the only reason i would want to own a supercomputer is to compute the digits of pi faster 22:38:16 there is at least that man who's obsessed by it: Yasumasa Kanada 22:38:18 well, where it's been paid for and done by someone else, why not just download their results? 22:38:39 wth does the trillionth digit of pi matter for? 22:38:41 what if you want more? 22:38:56 Six digits is typically enough for practical purposes, isn't it? 22:39:16 afaic it's insignificant minutia--it doesn't help solve any problems (maybe only yet, but I don't anticipate it) 22:39:40 *but* it does an exercise for algorithm research 22:39:49 nyef: not if you're trying to find the meaning of the universe 22:40:02 I thought that was 42 :) 22:40:19 in base pi? 22:40:24 ezakimak: yes more to try to implement algorithms 22:40:59 *francogrex* would kill to get my hand on that code he used 22:41:10 what is a non-integer base? 22:41:36 i read years ago that the most efficient base would be base e 22:41:48 so either round up to 3 or down to 2 22:41:54 not sure the context though 22:42:05 -!- sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:43:05 -!- OliverUv_ [~gandhi@195.159.235.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:43:58 cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has joined #lisp 22:45:57 -!- tcr [~tcr@host187.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:47:50 -!- rpg [~rpg@173-119-54-240.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:48:44 -!- cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:49:09 -!- salva [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: salva] 22:49:21 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-170-98.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:51:41 salva [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 22:53:12 Heh. Might be amusing to have every number in the syslog represented in base e. 22:53:27 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-190-145.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:54 How do I load multi-files ? 22:53:54 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:53:55 system logarithm? 22:54:14 why don't they accept something like "/*.lisp" ? 22:54:30 lol. 22:54:47 ??? 22:54:56 why should they? 22:54:59 morphism: (mapcar 'load (directory "/*.lisp")) 22:55:02 how do I ? 22:55:12 Oh thank pjb :D, exactly what I want 22:55:21 But really, you should write an asd file, and use asdf. 22:55:24 somebody tell morphism about asdf 22:55:28 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.152.149] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:55:49 also, somebody please tell minion to come back 22:55:53 Sorry, I'm shifted to the future. Let me resynchronize. 22:57:45 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:58:09 beach [~user@116.118.4.39] has joined #lisp 22:58:16 Good morning everyone! 22:58:43 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 22:58:45 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:43 nyef: I have read your notes and I wrote some comments. I'll get them to you as soon as possible, but I have a few days of catching up since I have been away for a couple of days. 23:01:34 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.83.75.103] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 23:02:30 -!- basho__ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-229-225.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:06:51 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:09:07 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 23:09:51 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 23:11:20 -!- mydik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:12:31 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:13:32 Mococa [~Mococa@187.114.188.175] has joined #lisp 23:14:13 symbole [~user@ool-182ff693.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:51 cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has joined #lisp 23:16:31 xan_ [~xan@99.13.242.166] has joined #lisp 23:19:39 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:21:15 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.114.188.175] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:21:42 Mococa [~Mococa@187.114.188.175] has joined #lisp 23:23:56 TheRealLongshot [~longshot@207.204.232.138] has joined #lisp 23:26:56 hey pjb, is there anyway to make a list of files in a chosen directory ? 23:27:26 DIRECTORY 23:27:39 -!- benny [~benny@i577A8349.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:28:24 -!- Bike [~arm_of_th@71-38-158-155.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:29:27 davekong [~davekong@unaffiliated/davekong] has joined #lisp 23:29:42 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:31:28 -!- pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has left #lisp 23:31:30 If I have a list of objects and I want to say create a symbol for each and then return that list of symbols, would it make sense to do someting like "(mapcar (lambda (x) (declare (ignore x)) (gensym)) forms)" rather than using let to create an accumulater and dotimes to loop the right number of times pushing symbols onto the accumulator? 23:33:03 zerogeedawg [~brian@c-71-202-139-217.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:33:39 -!- zerogeedawg [~brian@c-71-202-139-217.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:33:58 zerogeedawg [~brian@c-71-202-139-217.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:34:05 (map-into (make-list (length forms)) #'gensym)? 23:36:49 or just (loop for i in forms collect (gensym)) 23:37:15 -!- rfg [~rfg@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: rfg] 23:37:22 stassats`: is one of those the more idiomatic way to do things or better performance wise say if the list is very large 23:38:10 personally, i'd use the latter, it's short, clear, and should perform well 23:38:31 but why do you need that at all? 23:38:49 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:39:09 -!- zerogeedawg [~brian@c-71-202-139-217.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: zerogeedawg] 23:40:05 I was planning to write a macro that would take a list of forms and then run each in a thread waiting till they all finish before leaving the body of the call to the macro 23:40:38 I needed some way to name the threads to collect them later and would not know before hand how many threads there would be 23:41:08 Why do you need to name the threads? 23:42:00 davekong: maybe you can put the thread object into some other structure? 23:42:02 so I can call thread-join I mean name the objects as opposed to just throwing away the return value of creating the threads 23:42:13 davekong: put them into a list? 23:42:53 -!- slyrus__ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:42:55 stassats`: yeah I guess that would be better 23:44:53 I don't suppose anyone has gone through the exercise of reimlementing Pygments to Common Lisp? 23:45:59 to? 23:46:38 -!- pavelludiq [57f63ac1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.246.58.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:47:01 gigamonkey: marijnh maintains CodeMirror, which is a syntax highlighter/editor in javascript... probably doesn't help 23:48:02 why my defmacro can't defvar *variable* to a value but nil ? 23:48:15 that's... what? 23:48:50 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:49:09 (defmacro create-new-variable ( db var) `(defvar ,db ,var)) 23:49:13 morphism: defvar doesn't set values 23:49:24 except the first time 23:49:38 use defparameter 23:49:44 oconnore, yes, that's what I mean 23:49:48 but I see that 23:49:59 it work for normal "db" variable 23:50:04 but not "*db*" 23:51:04 oconnore, ok, defparameter worked :D So that's the different between defvar and defparameter ? 23:51:10 yes 23:52:13 defvar only defines the initial value, so if you reload again it won't re-set the value if it already exists. defparameter is intended that when you reload, it does set the value. 23:52:41 if after defvar the variable does not have the value you gave it, that means it already existed 23:53:55 so for instance, (defvar *my-thread-pool* (create-thread-pool)), no matter how many times I reload that file as I make changes, it won't blow my threadpool away 23:55:06 nope 23:55:12 rfg [~rfg@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:55:23 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 23:55:24 as in yes, it won't 23:55:27 but if I change the definition of create-thread-pool, then I have to cycle the lisp image, or manually reset it 23:55:36 in order to get the change into the *my-thread-pool* variable 23:55:48 no, you can simply setf it 23:56:00 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 23:56:08 "reset" = set it again 23:56:27 overloaded term :-P 23:56:28 yes 23:58:30 beach: Hello again. 23:58:56 I got it ,thanks :P 23:59:25 beach: When would be a good time to talk?