00:00:18 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:01:16 -!- pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has left #lisp 00:02:52 cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:240:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has joined #lisp 00:04:41 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:04:51 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:05:02 orcafat [43aa6450@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.170.100.80] has joined #lisp 00:05:21 so I'm reading Let Over Lambda... what'd yall think of this one? 00:05:27 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:06:02 lifeng [~lifeng@bb116-15-185-57.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 00:06:20 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 00:06:26 I didn't read it. I hear it's funny but not advised to newbies. 00:06:35 "funny", let's say. 00:07:21 I haven't read it, the positive reviews seem to be "over the top", and the descriptions I've seen just don't seem right. 00:07:28 I find it very accessible and I'm a newbie. Then again, I'm already totally used to lambda from previous languages 00:07:29 "Land of Lisp" might be better. 00:07:38 but it's very idealistic i guess 00:07:44 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@bb116-15-185-57.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Client Quit] 00:08:00 he makes big claims like "single namespace is just plain wrong" 00:08:01 Basically, it seems far too hyped to really be true. 00:08:08 orcafat: let's say it's "opinionated": some things in it might not be good style or good Common Lisp. 00:09:08 Davsebamse [~davse@gate.ipvision.dk] has joined #lisp 00:09:09 i've never seen anyone actually recommend it 00:09:15 right. the really strong opinions almost seem a bit Blub-y, to be honest. "I think in two namespaces therefore it's harder to program in one" 00:09:56 at any rate, the guy is at least a very good writer and explainer. 00:10:15 You know, I used to be heavily a two-namespace person, but I've since realized that, for the most part, I don't actually -use- the overlap that having a separate function namespace really gives me. 00:10:43 -!- viorel [~viorel@ool-44c70d72.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: viorel] 00:11:23 right. beyond little things like wanting a variable named "car" because you're writing software for mitsubishi it's not a big deal 00:11:44 until you write compilers or utility code. 00:11:52 ... "vehicle", "automobile"... 00:11:59 ... "first". 00:12:26 Okay, with SBCL we have how many different function namespaces? 00:14:00 zomgbie_ [~jesus@85-127-207-34.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 00:14:47 There's the function, its type signature, its source-transform, its ir1-translator, its ir1-transform, its derive-type method, its ltn-annotate method, its ir2-transform... and possibly another one or two things... 00:15:00 nyef: hash table stuff. 00:15:12 Oh! I'm forgetting macro-function and compiler-macro-function. 00:15:23 And, yes, each hash table is yet another namespace. 00:15:27 nyef: yikes. i guess i have a lot mroe rabbit hole to explore. is that mostly CLOS stuff? 00:15:43 not at all CLOS stuff (if only). 00:16:49 -!- Davsebamse [~davse@gate.ipvision.dk] has quit [Quit: Davsebamse] 00:16:53 Well, the source-transforms are mostly stuff like converting caddar to a series of car and cdr calls. 00:16:59 The ir1-translator is for special-forms. 00:17:29 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.150.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:17:38 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-135-3.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:17:44 The ir1-transform is like a compiler-macro, but it gets passed type information and "lvars" for parameters instead of source forms. 00:17:58 The derive-type method is for "bottom-up" type derivation. 00:18:45 The ltn-annotate method is for squinky hacks, the ir2-transform is for squinky hacks and for VOP template emission. 00:19:04 (VOPs are for telling the compiler how to open-code various operations.) 00:20:50 So when you drill all the way down, you find that there's some magic that arranges for the existence of an anonymous function as an ir2-transform for car that emits VOP SLOT with parameters suitable for grabbing the contents of the CAR slot of a CONS object. 00:24:17 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:25:21 -!- loke_ [~elias@bb121-6-175-5.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:25:45 longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has joined #lisp 00:27:15 -!- zomgbie_ [~jesus@85-127-207-34.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:27:23 -!- Geef [~Geef@249.Red-83-33-83.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:27:43 viorel [~viorel@ool-44c70d72.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:27 -!- viorel [~viorel@ool-44c70d72.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 00:29:35 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.150.57] has joined #lisp 00:31:03 -!- orcafat [43aa6450@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.170.100.80] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:31:49 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.84.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:33:14 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.80.155] has joined #lisp 00:33:16 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-152-135-21.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 00:34:00 pers [~user@220.sub-75-220-177.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 00:34:48 Hello lisp friends! 00:35:31 -!- pers [~user@220.sub-75-220-177.myvzw.com] has left #lisp 00:36:20 Hello! 00:37:30 Demosthenes [~demo@12.181.218.2] has joined #lisp 00:38:29 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-152-135-21.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:41:25 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 00:45:06 -!- mauryckk [~mauryck@bard-nynt4-193.bard.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:45:22 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 00:53:43 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@12.181.218.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:54:51 Demosthenes [~demo@m372436d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 00:55:13 KDr2 [~KDr2@59.108.41.20] has joined #lisp 00:56:55 -!- pnq [~nick@host-176.ssu.portsmouth.oh.us] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:58:18 -!- stipes [~chris@c-174-53-162-57.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:00:17 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h134n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.17/20110420140830]] 01:01:35 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:02:54 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-190-145.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 01:05:04 pers: Hey buddy! How's the hacking? 01:05:11 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.12.183] has joined #lisp 01:05:15 gah. next time.. 01:05:38 -!- codelurker [~codelurke@66.71.230.192] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:06:48 -!- Harag [~Harag@dsl-243-0-188.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:06:51 -!- Bahman [~bahman@2.146.17.231] has quit [Quit: Farewell] 01:07:13 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:11:02 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483DDB1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:12:28 -!- doc_what is now known as doc_who 01:14:20 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:16:23 mauryckk [~mauryck@stu234-251.bard.edu] has joined #lisp 01:16:46 pnq [~nick@host-176.ssu.portsmouth.oh.us] has joined #lisp 01:17:37 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:48 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:19:29 -!- KDr2 [~KDr2@59.108.41.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:20:42 KDr2 [~KDr2@59.108.41.20] has joined #lisp 01:22:39 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 01:22:42 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:26:10 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@m372436d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:31:51 sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:09 -!- mauryckk [~mauryck@stu234-251.bard.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:32:14 -!- pnq [~nick@host-176.ssu.portsmouth.oh.us] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:32:38 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-248-241-85.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:40 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 01:32:44 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.145.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:34:12 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.201.9] has joined #lisp 01:34:53 Demosthenes [~demo@12.181.218.2] has joined #lisp 01:35:57 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.201.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:35:57 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 01:36:43 sylecn [~sylecn@cpe-70-112-211-195.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:37:19 nowhereman [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-2-136.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:37:59 alph_cent [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:38:01 hey 01:38:10 I have a question regarding lisp 01:38:51 enthymeme [~kraken@rrcs-64-183-86-53.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:39:03 A valuable asset. 01:39:34 Go ahead and ask. 01:40:41 could theoretically a kernel written in lisp never need to be rebooted? 01:40:42 -!- nowhere_man [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-18-206.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 01:41:06 Theoretically, a kernel written in C could never need to be rebooted. 01:41:06 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@12.181.218.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 01:41:25 Bike: wait, I meant for the upgrades 01:41:32 I figured. 01:41:39 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:42:33 alph: Yes. 01:42:53 In practice it isn't such a good design principle. 01:42:55 linux kernel needs to be rebooted each time there's a nev version, unless you pay for some obscure propiertary solution that only supports a few distros. 01:43:12 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 01:43:13 alph: Why is this an important feature? 01:43:19 Zhivago: what, not being able to reboot? 01:44:04 Never rebooting. 01:44:37 because I am sitting here in the computer and each X11, program, kernel, term upgrade needs a restart which involves re-starting everything that's up and running. 01:45:47 I think your priorities are arse about face. 01:45:58 One day that computer is going to crash. 01:46:15 If your plans rely on this never happening, then they're likely to go wrong. 01:46:42 Instead of avoiding rebooting, I'd suggest making rebooting as transparent as possible. 01:47:00 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 01:47:20 Start thinking of machines as transitory resources -- it's going to be standard in days to come. 01:49:57 alright 01:50:54 Personally, I think that the single-image centricity of lisp is more of a drawback than a feature, these days. 01:51:59 Demosthenes [~demo@m492436d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 01:52:23 meaning+ 01:52:29 ? 01:52:42 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.255] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:52:53 Lisp systems tend to be set up like an oasis in the desert. 01:53:41 They stake out a process, set it up to be civilized, and then stick everything in it in order to avoid interacting with the outside world as much as possible. 01:54:12 Which has its merits, since if you can ignore the outside world, you can often avoid doing depressingly stupid or difficult things. 01:54:47 On the other hand, it means that most lisp software is used to the idea of everything living in the same place. 01:55:50 Very hard to take half of a lisp system and stick it on another machine, for example. 01:55:58 xan_ [~xan@205.158.58.41.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:37 It's not fundamentally a lisp issue -- it's a consequence of design strategies over a long period of time. 01:57:28 So, what would you prefer? 01:58:40 Well, I'd prefer something set up so that it can naturally distribute itself over systems in a dynamic fashion. 01:59:19 Which means shifting the balance between direct references and symbolic references. 02:00:32 It also means shifting the balance between direct call programs and data flow programs. 02:01:18 Maybe the simplest way to put it is 'using many processes rather than one'. 02:01:47 I see. 02:01:57 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has joined #lisp 02:02:35 If you replace the 'complex lisp object' with 'a process', it would probably be about right. 02:03:07 That's easier to picture. 02:03:07 -!- ncow [~ncow@unaffiliated/necrocow] has left #lisp 02:03:43 sounds hard to program for 02:04:34 Zhivago: are you implying Lisp lacks multiprocessing? 02:04:50 alph: No. I am saying that multiprocessing is a bad idea. 02:05:04 ooh.. 02:05:05 alph: Instead, you want multiple machines. 02:05:22 oO 02:05:31 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:05:33 italic: I think it's probably about as hard as writing a make-file. 02:05:44 would'nt that be a bit of expensive? 02:05:54 alph: No. Virtual machines are cheap. 02:06:03 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 02:06:04 alph: Posix processes, for example, are virtual machines. 02:06:11 -!- cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:240:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:06:15 or go with event-driven 02:06:45 wait, so every single part of an entire OS placed on different machines? 02:06:56 first time I heard such a concept 02:07:14 alph: It's standard practice. 02:07:50 alph: In unix, for example, the system is built out of a bunch of processes -- which are virtual machines. 02:08:03 alph: The kernel is just what implements those machines. 02:10:29 Of course, in posix, processes share a lot of resources, which makes them hard to move to different physical machines. 02:11:18 But if you got rid of shared memory, shared file descriptors, the shared local file system, inter-process signals, etc, then they would be easy to move. 02:13:36 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 02:14:00 cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:240:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has joined #lisp 02:14:19 rfg [~rfg@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 02:16:48 look at gnu hurd for an even more extreme example than linux/unix 02:17:11 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:26:16 -!- compmstr [~compmstr@adsl-074-185-008-197.sip.clt.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:27:06 or at dragonflybsd for an attempt at distributing processes/services 02:27:27 alph_cent: perhaps that what you really need is support for persistency in your OS 02:27:46 i.e. saving the actual state of things so that it can be restored 02:28:11 when that is possible, then moving instances among nodes of a network is also a possiblity 02:29:36 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-190-145.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:30:50 -!- KDr2 [~KDr2@59.108.41.20] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:33:09 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:36:22 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:41 ericbb [~user@blk-224-153-99.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 02:40:18 -!- noogenesis [~derekv@c-68-62-78-203.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:41:28 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@nat/google/x-iitejuiggtxfulns] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 02:41:38 derekv [~derekv@c-68-62-78-203.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:42:11 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-64-222-131-96.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 02:46:24 cesarbp_ [~chatzilla@189.247.135.172] has joined #lisp 02:47:02 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.135.172] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:47:04 -!- cesarbp_ is now known as cesarbp 02:53:11 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:55:00 superflit [~superflit@67-41-202-224.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:57:15 Zhivago: how do you eliminate those shared resources though? 02:58:06 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:59:17 if I decompose a multithreaded lisp program into N seperate processes, haven't I just replaced the lisp image itself with an IPC protocol? 02:59:56 jfleming [~jfleming@eth59-167-133-99.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:09 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c72ce0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 03:01:26 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-190-145.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 03:03:20 Harag [~Harag@dsl-243-0-188.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 03:04:10 felideon [~felideon@adsl-98-64-128-246.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:29 Deathaholic [~Mococa@189.115.150.57] has joined #lisp 03:09:26 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.150.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:11:34 -!- dlila [~dlila@CPE0014d1c9243c-CM001bd71cede2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:14:41 -!- Deathaholic [~Mococa@189.115.150.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:20:27 Deathaholic [~Mococa@189.115.150.57] has joined #lisp 03:21:11 -!- felideon [~felideon@adsl-98-64-128-246.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:23:40 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 03:23:49 -!- Deathaholic is now known as Mococa 03:25:08 Triplefault_ [~Mouse@adsl-72-145-220-219.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:15 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:27:28 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.80] has joined #lisp 03:27:53 -!- rfg [~rfg@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: rfg] 03:29:01 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-wswmkkcqcenxeuyd] has joined #lisp 03:29:08 -!- Triplefault [~Mouse@adsl-72-145-216-149.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:29:49 slyrus [~slyrus@adsl-76-254-45-145.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:28 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 03:33:29 pnq [~nick@ACA23807.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 03:35:55 lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-75-83-150-91.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:36:24 -!- ericbb [~user@blk-224-153-99.eastlink.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:37:23 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-75-83-150-91.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:37:31 lemonodor [~lemonodor@216.239.45.130] has joined #lisp 03:38:48 rfg [~rfg@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 03:40:11 -!- rfg [~rfg@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 03:43:20 -!- schoene [~mark@cpe-24-93-238-67.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:48:21 rfg [~rfg@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 03:50:47 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@rrcs-64-183-86-53.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:51:01 oconnore: No. 03:51:50 oconnore: You've partitioned it into smaller parts. Those partitions have different semantics. 03:52:15 oconnore: For example, you can't directly reference something on the other side of one of those partitions. 03:52:27 oconnore: But you can directly reference things within your own partition. 03:53:08 This affects fundamental concepts, like identity. 03:54:20 Zhivago: do you know EROS? 03:54:25 Also, different partitions can fail independently, which has fundamental consequences. 03:54:39 I am somewhat familiar with it. It is capabilities based. 03:55:42 Partitial failure of a program means you need to account for unreliability. 03:55:48 Yes. Also quite interesting is it's approach to persistancy. The relevance here being that lisp images are foremost a question of addressing space, and that a single addressing space is not a problem, with respect to time or space (multiple processors). 03:55:50 (Which is why RPC is such a bad idea) 03:56:08 A single address space is an incredibly huge problem for scaling. 03:56:20 It's the same reason that threads are a bad idea. 03:56:28 Zhivago: I agree that process states could be persistent, so that a kernel could "crash" and reboot (or even a different version) and continue running the processes without impacting them. 03:57:04 But this independent of lisp single address space images, or unix multiple address spaces processes. 03:57:12 No. 03:57:25 Zhivago: that depends on your addressing space. 03:57:42 No, it really doesn't. 03:57:47 When you have 64-bit, you can scale to the equivalent of up to 4 billion 32-bit processors :-) 03:58:06 Pretending that your have distributed memory means introducing unreliability down to the level of every single operations. 03:58:29 Not to mention reaching consensus. 03:58:38 This is another question. EROS solves it somewhat with its persistency mechanisms. 03:58:51 I'm not saying that you would do that over the Internet either. 03:58:59 The kernel rebooting should be completely irrelevant to a running program. 03:59:15 It should just rebuild its processes elsewhere. 04:02:10 Lisp systems are traditionally like amoebas -- single cells trying to be animals. 04:02:20 -!- rfg [~rfg@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: rfg] 04:02:26 It's time for multicelular life. 04:03:27 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:03:45 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@180-76-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:04:30 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 04:04:37 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.89.129] has joined #lisp 04:07:02 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.8.152.53] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:07:48 MoALTz [~no@92.8.152.53] has joined #lisp 04:11:24 cwyang [~user@58.150.182.75] has joined #lisp 04:15:18 -!- foom [~jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:16:28 -!- macrocat [~marmalade@142.177.210.197] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:17:02 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.188.134] has joined #lisp 04:17:51 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.188.134] has quit [Client Quit] 04:18:40 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:19:38 -!- bfein [~morik@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:20:06 you should also look at erlang 04:20:41 it already handles multi-processing/multi-node computing inherently 04:21:11 iirc it uses a functional style 04:21:35 erlang is a step in the right direction, yes. 04:22:25 superjudge [~mjl@195.22.80.141] has joined #lisp 04:23:21 It's also designed for resiliency, with a crash-fast-and-early model that assumes failure _will_ happen. 04:23:52 Its syntax is butt-ugly, but the little time I've spent with Erlang suggests that it's just as effective as its reputation has it. 04:24:36 Yes. It gets processes right. 04:25:06 i've only used it via rabbitmq 04:25:08 Processes should be considered temporary cells in a program's structure. 04:25:15 never programmed in it directly 04:25:34 instances of coroutines? 04:26:34 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-179-47-161.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:26:55 ezakimak: not sure, though I expect you could approximate them. It's all message-passing and pass-by-value, so a process transmitting to a named process doesn't know whether the destination is on the same CPU or on the far side of the planet. 04:27:25 cfy [~cfy@218.75.27.163] has joined #lisp 04:27:25 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.27.163] has quit [Changing host] 04:27:25 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 04:27:32 coroutines imply synchrony. 04:28:02 Also, coroutines generally imply the same failure semantics as functions. 04:28:06 either way, you to contend with the implications of CAP theory 04:28:27 noob [43aa6450@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.170.100.80] has joined #lisp 04:28:38 do reader macros have to start with # or is that just convention? 04:28:46 and ^ message passing/dependencies == V performance 04:28:51 #\( is a reader macro. 04:29:03 ( is a reader macro. :) 04:29:21 astudent [~astudent@nat-128-42-219-116.rice.edu] has joined #lisp 04:30:51 i believe that for every P problem there is a finite limit to the number of resources to solve it in optimal time 04:31:02 adding more idle units doesn't make anything faster 04:31:02 -!- paul0 [~user@200.146.60.99.dynamic.dialup.gvt.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:31:25 paul0 [~user@200.146.60.99.dynamic.dialup.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 04:31:29 ezakimak: you're referring to Amdahl's law? 04:31:47 not directly, but now that you bring it up it does seem to apply to what I'm thinking about 04:32:34 At some point the cost of maintaining consensus reaches the increase in processing power. 04:32:42 i mean, take a look at map reduce--the actual amount of work done is greater than the problem requires--a trade off of adding a lot of overhead to gain a giant reduction in latency 04:32:45 ezakimak: there are some problems for which we can basically expect linear speedups. 04:33:22 true, but the limit is when you have enough ram to hold the entire problem set, and cpu to do every comparison simultaneously 04:33:26 bfein [~morik@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 04:33:26 foom [~jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 04:33:52 so, there's always tradeoffs 04:34:34 i think it just boils down to answering what the particular system requirements are for time constraints and throughput constraints 04:34:37 I can tell you for sure that there are interesting problems in L or NL, and that these are pretty much arbitrarily parallelisable. 04:34:43 However, speed isn't the only issue. 04:35:29 i wonder, and have for a while, if anyone has ever looked at mathematically reducing a piece of code into bit ops, then implementing it via a bit-serial algorithm 04:35:36 You can also buy resilience. 04:35:48 you can parallelize bit-serial algorithms really easily 04:37:02 what do you mean by resilience? 04:37:20 "D"urability as in ACID? 04:37:29 or availability as in HA? 04:38:01 and then there are problems that can just scale instances up arbitrarily. 04:38:36 ezakimak: Both. 04:38:49 -!- Harag [~Harag@dsl-243-0-188.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:38:54 yes, but you still have the CAP tradeoff 04:39:00 Sure, but so what? 04:39:10 so, you have to choose 04:39:12 That's the same as saying you have the MDL tradeoff. 04:39:14 what does your system need 04:39:21 It's true, but not interesting. 04:39:30 ezakimak: who said the system is distributed? 04:39:50 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:40:06 we're talking about parallelizing, which is distribution 04:40:18 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 04:40:31 if you mean this is all on a single large numa machine that is cache coherent, that's a slightly different situation 04:40:43 not necesarily. 4, 8 or 16 sockets provide plenty of parallelism. 04:40:43 but then you have other ways of being limited 04:41:33 The cost you're calling 'distribution' is actually that of 'consensus'. 04:41:51 Different algorithms have different costs for maintaining consensus. 04:41:53 ok, let's just say it's a quad sparc--128 threads on one cpu 04:42:10 er, 4 cpus, cache coherent. 04:42:17 If your operations are independent, then consensus is cheap. 04:42:47 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.135.172] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.16/20110319135224]] 04:42:47 yes, I know. like I said earlier scalability performance is inverse to the messages/dependencies 04:43:24 if there was a silver bullet to all this, it wouldn't still be an exciting thing to talk about 30 years later :) 04:43:58 It's about as exciting as talking about how compressible data is. 04:44:30 well, that actually is interesting to me 04:45:26 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.150.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:45:29 i believe you could compress just about anything to 64 bytes. 04:45:59 but it would take a *long* time to compute it. 04:46:14 Then you're an idiot. 04:46:17 What about the pigeonhole principle. 04:46:29 I'm thinking about fractal compression 04:46:29 You need to include the decompression algorithm in the size. 04:46:35 yep. 04:46:38 ezakimak: I'm thinking about bijections. 04:47:10 some of the bits are an index into a table of fractal algorithms, the other bits are the inital parameters, and the remaining bits are the iterations count 04:47:10 Fractals aren't magical. 04:48:06 in fact, almost every (in the mathematical sense) datum is incompressible. 04:48:15 no, but you could argue that at some postiion, in some fractal, at some resolution, some region happens to be the data you want to store 04:49:02 lanthan_ [~ze@p54B7FD6C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:49:15 -!- lanthan [~ze@p54B7E295.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:49:24 i'm never going to argue that there's any semblence of a practical solution in the idea 04:49:46 argue all you want. I have a theorem that tells me that the measure of compressible datum is nil. 04:49:59 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.150.57] has joined #lisp 04:50:15 as for information theory, I think you're right. 04:50:27 so, you're right if, by "just about anything", you mean "just about anything but any fixed fraction of everything" 04:50:28 it is only the *representation* of an idea that is cempressible, not the idea itself 04:50:58 ah, so now you've replaced [any]things with ideas. 04:51:20 ezakimak: so your 64-byte compression artifact is in fact an address on a fractal, from where the actual information can be retrieved? 04:51:27 yes 04:51:47 how can you prove that there aren't more than 2^64 "ideas" in the universe? 04:51:58 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@216.239.45.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:52:04 the amount of nonsensical data streams you can create FAR outnumber the amount of useful data streams there are 04:52:05 well, that's already more electrons than in the known universe 04:52:17 pkhuong: he did say bytes, rather than bits, but I agree. 04:52:42 what's a factor of 8 in the exponent between friends? 04:52:48 :) 04:53:19 ezakimak: the problem with that objection is that it's not a simple matter of enumerating _things_. Now let's start on the _relationships_ between an arbitrary and very large number of things like, say, neurons in a brain. 04:53:55 so, trillions of neurons, add an exponent to that to count # of connections? 04:54:24 the number of connection set would put the trillion *in* the exponent. 04:54:33 and how much information to what precision would represent the presence of a single neuron or single connection? 04:54:59 yes, it's immediately difficult to know how to enumerate it 04:55:39 "difficult" in that statement being the epitome of undestatement 04:56:00 sure, it might be possible to match some arbitrary to a place in a chaotic number source, but I'd think on average the description of where to find it would on average be at least slightly larger than the original information 04:56:15 ..some arbitrary byte stream... 04:56:41 *Phoodus* is slightly coherent as he digests large quantities of food, disregard grammar flubs :-P 04:56:47 INcoherent, sheesh 04:56:47 why--it's an index, just think of a fractal as a by-magnitudes-more efficient btree 04:57:26 how can it be more efficient as a mapping from index to data? 04:57:36 for each exact match of 1GB worth of data, how many references to 1GB of data are unusable? 04:58:01 how is that different than free space on a hard drive? 04:58:03 the noise eats your index space much more than the real hits 04:58:04 Phoodus: no, it's OK. "slightly coherent" is a perfectly apt way to put it :) 04:58:15 heh 04:58:33 you don't store index entries of what you don't use, only what you do use 04:58:49 but, given coordinates in a fractal, you don't know what you use and don't use 04:58:59 you just happen to find matches in a chaotic data array 04:59:22 and that array, in theory, would happen to contain all numeric combinations possible 04:59:30 or else it wouldn't work in general 04:59:43 that means that you can address every possible finding in that chaotic array 05:00:13 skip a few steps, and it means your index ends up being as large as your input stream 05:00:40 (if not bigger) 05:00:59 OK, so I can work with the idea of using an address, an algorithm and an agreed set of starting conditions to retrieve data from an arbitrary point within a fractal or similarly complex type of topology. But given the source data that wants compressing, how the heck do you figure out the corresponding address? 05:01:02 -!- sylecn [~sylecn@cpe-70-112-211-195.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:01:19 Phoodus: ezakimak isn't in the realm of reality, but in that of some ill-defined "pragmatic" or "real-world" inputs. 05:01:24 therein lies the problem 05:01:36 no, therein lies the *second* problem ;) 05:02:33 On a slight tangent, I remember hearing about a purported encryption algorithm that worked in exactly this way. Uncrackable, I tells ya! 05:03:10 http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/Xplore/login.jsp?url=http%3A%2F%2Fieeexplore.ieee.org%2Fiel5%2F5508195%2F5513230%2F05513277.pdf%3Farnumber%3D5513277&authDecision=-203 05:03:20 a hint on writing encryption algorithms (that don't presume an infinite lookup dictionary): Create your decompressor first. Then hand-generate compressed code to decompress. Then write the compressor 05:03:38 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:03:42 bah. shoulda bitly'd that 05:03:42 I know too many people who wrote a great _compressor_ first, and gee they couldn't uncompress it! ;) 05:04:00 i gotta renew my membership 05:05:01 ezakimak: at first glance, that looks like self-similarity analysis, not using a preexisting fractal as an infinite lookup dictionary 05:05:07 An even better hint on writing encryption algorithms: don't. If you really must, first spend a couple of years reading critiques of existing algorithms, then writing your own. If _that_ doesn't discourage you... 05:05:32 I read "the code book"--that was enough to discourage me. 05:05:43 (good book btw) 05:06:33 I also have to wonder what's magical about 512 bits. What about 511, or 510? 05:06:48 in what context? 05:06:52 Applied Cryptography? That one did it for me. I'd need to spend 5 years or so grokking the underlying maths before I even started. 05:07:30 I didn't even like CRC math. base-1 algebra. I can't imagine getting worse than that. 05:07:30 ezakimak: your 64 bytes. 05:07:56 (I thought we were talking about compression, not encryption) 05:08:28 Phoodus: we were. The tangent is my fault. 05:08:45 ah, there it is 05:10:18 oh. I was just thinking a few 1 int to encode the algorithm, 2 floats for starting parameters, 1 int for the iteration count, and the rest for the location/offset/length--it wasn't anything precisely accurate. 05:10:40 not encode the algorthim, but index into table of algorithms 05:11:14 of course, you could always try creating a genetic algorithm whose output is the byte stream you want 05:11:28 that's what those 64k code hackers do 05:11:29 then you're not bound to preexisting algorithms or fractal equations or whatever 05:11:32 liuzhijin [~liuzhijin@203.86.56.34] has joined #lisp 05:11:59 really, I haven't seen them actually use genetics yet 05:12:06 (you mean demoscene?) 05:12:10 in 64k they'll have code to generate their binary, texture images, polygon vertex points, etc. 05:12:13 yes 05:12:28 pretty amazing stuff they do 05:12:39 right, but none of the source code I've seen was GA 05:12:57 nor the output of one 05:12:59 i couldn't tell you what algorithms they use 05:13:26 I've seen one that generated several GB of data 05:14:03 heh. first hit on google is the one I was thinking of 05:14:07 www.theproduct.de 05:14:12 right, and for artwork that's fine. You tune your input parameters directly to the output look 05:14:26 not so much for general byte stream creation to match an input stream 05:14:47 gor[e] [~svr@79.165.187.105] has joined #lisp 05:15:12 quote: 05:15:12 with your technology you could compress a dvd to a floppy disk! 05:15:12 you got it all wrong. .the .product is not about compression, it's about generation. we can only "compress" data generated with our tool. 05:16:15 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 05:18:05 anyone wanna help me with some lisp? 05:18:31 ezakimak: nah, the compression stuff's much more fun. 05:18:40 I'm working through this book: http://www.cse.buffalo.edu/~shapiro/Commonlisp/ 05:18:57 I don't understand what problem 17.29 is asking me to do 05:19:30 variablep is defined as (char= (char (symbol-name s) 0) #\?)) 05:19:48 (eg, first char of symbol-name is #\?) 05:20:16 I did 16.14 just fine, it makes sense 05:21:40 can you be more clear on which part you don't understand? 05:22:05 ok, so there's a few things that confuse me there 05:22:14 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:22:34 - "(as recognized by variablep)" -- does that mean he wants me to (assert (variablep v) ... ? 05:22:39 -!- hankhero [~Adium@c213-89-201-154.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:23:03 or is it doing a lookup in subs for an entry starting with v? 05:23:09 he's defining what a variable is 05:23:27 you know what shapes 'subs' is supposed to hold, right? 05:23:34 same as in 16.14, right? 05:24:07 yes 05:24:22 but with variables and values, not just symbols in general 05:24:43 but what do I need the variablep predicate for if v is already provided as an argument? 05:25:07 I don't think he's saying to use it 05:25:21 he's just defining what to expect 05:25:24 then why does he mention it at all? 05:25:41 because saying "the variable v" can be confusing 05:25:53 I guess I don't understand what the difference is between this and 16.14--they're both just a lookup function? 05:26:03 but what he really means is "a symbol v that happens to pass variablep, not literally a lisp variable" 05:26:21 no, boundp returns t or nil based on whether or not it's bound 05:26:31 and technically, you might want to return nil if the parameter is not a variable 05:26:47 so I do check the predicate? 05:27:01 I'd do it 05:27:13 it makes no sense in the context of a matcher to have values bound to non-variables 05:27:16 k. gimme a sec and i'll paste bin and you tell me if you think I've got it 05:27:37 it's an optimization to skip that check 05:28:14 topeak [~topeak@123.125.157.31] has joined #lisp 05:29:56 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.188.134] has joined #lisp 05:30:11 http://paste.lisp.org/display/121722 05:30:18 is it that simple? 05:30:41 it can be made much simpler 05:30:51 first off, you should build this on top of assoc 05:31:00 well, my lisp-foo is weak still :) 05:31:07 oh yeah. he mentioned that 05:31:24 hang on, lemme try 05:31:25 second, (if (not foo) nil bar) -> (when foo bar) 05:31:35 the cond is in the else 05:31:45 nostoi [~nostoi@114.Red-79-147-213.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 05:32:00 -!- gor[e] [~svr@79.165.187.105] has left #lisp 05:32:01 right, but if one of the 'if' branches returns nil, you can always reduce it to using when or unless, since those return nil for you if it doesn't 'match 05:32:18 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-efjpzssoxscgkiue] has joined #lisp 05:33:59 i updated it 05:34:42 that won't return t if it finds a match; it'll return the match 05:34:54 but isn't anything non-nil t? 05:35:04 well, it depends on exactly what's wanted 05:35:19 a "true"/non-nil value, or the actual symbol t 05:35:35 ok. updated--what about that? 05:35:38 now, get rid of the if 05:35:57 sure, looks find to me, as far as I understand it 05:36:10 strange that such a simple question would be asked seemingly that late in the book 05:36:11 oops. typo should be variablep 05:36:18 erm, yes 05:36:30 is that really all he's asking for? 05:36:37 sure was a really confusing way of asking it 05:36:53 kami```` [~user@p5B20E14B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:36:58 well, if you understand what he's asking, that's good 05:37:19 because no matter how simple the solution is, the thing is you're still solving a problem that needs that solution, not just coming up with the solution for its own sake 05:38:18 -!- kami``` [~user@p5B20EC8C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:38:23 well, that problem is marked as being used in one of the projects, so I have to have it 05:39:23 how is 17.30 any different than just cl:assoc ? 05:39:51 what does assoc return? 05:39:51 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C62BE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:40:03 oh. nm. it wants the cdr of the cons assoc returns 05:40:33 hey, how to make CCL compiler generate assembly code ? 05:41:05 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:41:14 anyone see Gmind ? 05:41:15 :P 05:41:43 zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:42:18 morphism: I thought it compiled to native by default, but I'm not a ccl expert 05:42:34 :-? 05:43:17 ok, thanks :D 05:43:42 kami````` [~user@p5B20DC50.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:45:19 -!- kami```` [~user@p5B20E14B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:45:29 -!- jfleming [~jfleming@eth59-167-133-99.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:48:51 Phoodus, thx for the help. I'm going cross-eyed on 17.31--so I know I'm tired--gonna call it a day. 05:49:20 np 05:50:40 jfleming [~jfleming@eth59-167-133-99.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:51:05 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.188.134] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:54:00 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-45-145.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:54:20 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-248-241-85.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 05:55:43 KDr2 [~KDr2@114.243.236.247] has joined #lisp 05:59:48 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 06:01:17 -!- Spion__ [~spion@79.125.200.150] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:02:50 Areil [~user@113.172.38.77] has joined #lisp 06:03:47 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 06:04:34 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@114.Red-79-147-213.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 06:06:13 Liera [~Liera@113.172.38.77] has joined #lisp 06:06:15 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C62BE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:09:58 Good afternoon! 06:11:25 -!- paul0 [~user@200.146.60.99.dynamic.dialup.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:12:58 agumonkey [agumonkey@150.59.83-79.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 06:13:01 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:13:21 good morning 06:13:23 -!- kami````` [~user@p5B20DC50.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:14:15 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:15:24 jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-248.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:16:33 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA23807.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:17:13 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:7a2b:cbff:fed0:c11c] has joined #lisp 06:17:13 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:7a2b:cbff:fed0:c11c] has quit [Changing host] 06:17:13 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 06:17:37 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-192-22.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 06:18:17 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.80] has joined #lisp 06:19:24 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:19:55 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.150.57] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:20:36 dmiles [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:21:42 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-186-80.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:22:00 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.201.9] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 06:23:52 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.201.9] has joined #lisp 06:24:08 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:25:16 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 06:25:16 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 06:25:16 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:26:34 -!- italic [~italic@cpe-67-242-144-94.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:30:44 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-152-135-21.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 06:31:14 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.201.9] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 06:34:12 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 06:34:34 Harag [~Harag@dsl-243-0-188.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:40:00 -!- liuzhijin [~liuzhijin@203.86.56.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:45:04 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 06:50:21 zomgbie_ [~jesus@85-127-213-157.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 06:51:17 stis [~stis@host-90-235-77-0.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 06:52:23 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-192-22.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:54:58 -!- topeak [~topeak@123.125.157.31] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:56:33 splittist2 [~splittist@208-234.1-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:56:55 morning 06:57:35 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 07:00:06 -!- Bike [~arm_of_th@71-38-158-155.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:01:28 workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 07:02:33 herbieB [~herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has joined #lisp 07:02:41 -!- Triplefault_ [~Mouse@adsl-72-145-220-219.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:02:53 Anyone us clsql with stored procs? 07:03:09 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 07:04:06 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:04:44 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has joined #lisp 07:07:26 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-248.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:11:47 herbieB: only postmodern, sorry. 07:11:57 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:15:00 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@157.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:15:57 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 07:17:34 I didn't quite understand that answer :P 07:22:35 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:25:17 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 07:25:43 -!- agumonkey [agumonkey@150.59.83-79.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:27:56 herbieB: sorry. The slightly more useful version is that I've used stored procs, but only with postmodern and not with clsql. 07:28:28 Ahh, I'm stuck in mysql 07:28:38 sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 07:28:41 And I found the answer, ahve to move to cl-mysql to support stored procs 07:28:42 Le sigh 07:28:42 You have my sympathies :) 07:28:52 Why oh why must my db person have chosen mysql 07:28:59 And why oh why must he be in love with stored procs 07:29:23 Blech, I'll move my code from clsql to cl-mysql tomorrow 07:29:35 I'll be diplomatically quiet about MySQL, but I'm very fond of stored procs myself where they make sense. 07:30:31 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:30:37 They can be much faster and more efficient, especially when they save you a bunch of round-trips, and they're arguably a security improvement when you can use them to reduce the attack surface area. 07:31:18 As in, it's much harder to break out of a stored proc by smuggling a single-quote through. 07:32:01 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.89.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:34:06 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.89.129] has joined #lisp 07:41:22 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 07:48:15 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-150-156.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:52:58 udzinari [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 07:54:28 Does it make sense to record the line number where to find a form? I'm in LW, and all I have found is dspec:location, which seems to record the filename only? 07:55:16 chr: Probably. 07:55:36 lifeng [~lifeng@155.69.43.70] has joined #lisp 07:55:50 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-50-142.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:56:47 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:57:04 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 07:57:23 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-91-25.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:57:46 Zhivago: In that case, would you have a clue as to how I'd ask for the current line number? 07:58:01 No. 08:01:42 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:04:39 Guthur [c0c1f510@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.193.245.16] has joined #lisp 08:06:45 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d0037fa.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:08:04 -!- lanthan_ [~ze@p54B7FD6C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 08:08:24 -!- Guthur [c0c1f510@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.193.245.16] has quit [Client Quit] 08:10:13 c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-sudjojevinmffkny] has joined #lisp 08:13:24 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:18:13 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has joined #lisp 08:19:02 -!- cwyang [~user@58.150.182.75] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:20:18 basho__ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-238-172.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:21:05 -!- noob [43aa6450@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.170.100.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:21:31 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:24:58 billitch [~billitch@78.250.216.113] has joined #lisp 08:25:52 Guthur [c743cb8c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.140] has joined #lisp 08:36:32 Joreji [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 08:38:18 -!- tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:40:53 tcr [~tcr@host187.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:43:12 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-141-59.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 08:45:34 -!- zomgbie_ [~jesus@85-127-213-157.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:45:34 tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #lisp 08:45:37 francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has joined #lisp 08:46:12 -!- tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [Changing host] 08:46:13 tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has joined #lisp 08:46:57 -!- francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has quit [Client Quit] 08:50:43 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:51:19 hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:52:17 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:52:28 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:52:55 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 08:59:24 -!- basho__ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-238-172.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:00:00 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:00:26 In case anyone's bored, I'd appreciate a look at my ASDF at https://github.com/phmarek/threading-queue (any other feedback is welcome, too, of course) 09:01:36 -!- Joreji [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:02:50 flip214: Looks ok to me. You looking for a style critique? 09:03:18 any remarks you have are welcome ... per email would be better, though 09:03:46 DEFPACKAGE forms in ASDF files seems a little weird. 09:04:18 Although it makes sense, I just don't remember ever seeing that before. 09:04:42 (other than trying to define an ASDF specifi pacakge, which you have avoided) 09:05:04 -!- npoektop [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:07:29 should I just put it in another file? 09:08:55 Often, defpackage forms are put in a packages.lisp file, on which the other files depend. 09:09:02 Yeah, and have all your dependencies of the package point to that as the first thing . 09:09:14 flip214: I would put it in a separate package[s].lisp file, and make the the first in the list of serial dependencies. 09:09:18 *splittist2* is slow 09:09:42 We're like the shuttle computers: at least we converge on an answer. 09:09:50 greaver [~J@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 09:10:44 flip214: do you use the TQ nickname? 09:10:45 francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has joined #lisp 09:11:10 splittist2: yes, hoping that no other uses it ... do you know somebody? 09:12:15 -!- xan_ [~xan@205.158.58.41.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:12:36 better now? 09:13:09 flip214: no. But I mean do you use it in the library. If not, you could leave it to the user (using conduits or similar) to choose theirs. 09:13:31 Yes. 09:13:33 (: 09:14:26 It's not used in the library. How would a different package define a (local?) nickname for that? 09:15:29 (rename-package #:threading-queue #:threading-queue '(mynk))? 09:16:07 fixed 09:16:22 There's one thing that bothers me a bit. 09:17:46 I cannot give (:use sb-concurrency) in (defpackage), because of "; The name "SB-CONCURRENCY" does not designate any package." 09:18:48 But if I don't give it, upon re-evaluation of the (defpackage) form I get "WARNING: THREADING-QUEUE used to use the following packages: (#)" 09:18:54 So, what should I do? 09:19:09 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 09:19:21 flip214: even before you've commented out sb-concurrency from the defsystem? 09:19:23 easyE: what's wrong with defpackage in .asd ? 09:20:25 a lot are written this way, including mines so i'd like to know =) 09:20:28 billitch: properly it would be part of the code, not the packaging. 09:20:41 the package is for the asdf system 09:20:53 I can't really come up with a good example of why this is bad. 09:21:08 splittist2: If I have sb-c in defsystem, I get "The name "SB-CONCURRENCY" does not designate any package" when evaluating the (defpackage) 09:21:09 I thought the usual way is just to have the ASDF forms in the .asd file. 09:21:14 it does not serve any other purpose than the system definition 09:21:35 billitch: it's not the system package, but the actual library packages being in the .asd that we are suggesting is suboptimal 09:21:40 But the defpackage is not the system defintion, right? 09:21:44 for a trivial system it's not useful but you might want to add custom compilation functions 09:21:48 .asd file is supposed to be declarative, not executable 09:22:07 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d0037fa.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:22:31 leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has joined #lisp 09:22:33 that's a reduced view of asdf, you can specialize methods to compile your own types of files 09:22:43 take a look at elephant ;) 09:22:52 yes, because those cases are not covered by ASDF yet 09:22:52 Sure, but those methods aren't executed like a DEFPACKAGE is. 09:23:30 well it makes sense to have a separate package for your compilation functions 09:24:13 billitch: again, it's not the defpackage relating to the DEFSYSTEM definition that flip214 has moved. 09:24:43 oh ok i was looking at a newer file 09:25:08 then i fully agree 09:25:49 anyone has a copy of emacs-cl from http://www.lisp.se/emacs-cl/? All links seem broken. 09:25:56 sorry for the race condition, .asd are just for building indeed 09:26:38 and all was calm and amity (: 09:27:15 How's the process for putting that on cliki.net? Just put it in? 09:28:34 -!- cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:240:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:28:42 If I just enter a new URL I get "Please create if you want to" but no "edit" link 09:29:06 Ah, sorry, the link is in the header 09:29:30 -!- greaver [~J@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:30:09 Bahman [~bahman@2.146.17.231] has joined #lisp 09:33:34 -!- Bahman [~bahman@2.146.17.231] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:34:18 -!- francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has left #lisp 09:39:05 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:42:27 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:44:19 Join two lists as a plist? Isn't there a builtin? 09:44:35 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 09:45:14 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:45:32 Hmm. Mebbe I was thinking of PAIRLIS 09:45:35 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:46:13 dmiles [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:46:48 Bahman [~bahman@2.146.17.231] has joined #lisp 09:46:54 (mapcan 'list keys values)? 09:47:06 That might work as well. 09:47:20 Hi all! 09:47:40 I think my constant use of LOOP has made the List part of my Lisp really rusty. 09:48:12 I see why there might be so much venom from certain quarters. 09:48:38 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has left #lisp 09:48:52 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:48:59 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:49:17 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:51:41 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 09:51:55 -!- dmiles 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http://www.textualapp.com/] 12:10:11 -!- jingtao` [~jingtaozf@li94-153.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:10:25 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 12:11:21 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-32-12-181.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:11:46 mobydick [~textual@124-171-72-nwork.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 12:11:50 -!- milanj [~milanj_@212-200-194-87.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:13:09 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 12:14:24 longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has joined #lisp 12:16:47 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 12:18:10 zomgbie [~jesus@chello213047090155.3.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 12:18:11 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:18:55 stis1 [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 12:19:17 nyef [~nyef@pool-64-222-131-96.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 12:19:23 G'morning all. 12:19:43 morning nyef! 12:21:17 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:25:11 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-186-80.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:28:04 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-186-80.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:30:42 -!- silenius [~silenus@p5DDBB330.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:31:12 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 12:31:29 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@m492436d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:31:49 cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has joined #lisp 12:31:49 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has quit [Changing host] 12:31:49 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 12:32:15 mcstar [~mcstar@adsl-89-132-34-244.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 12:32:37 hello 12:32:51 i have a question regarding garbage collection 12:32:53 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.40] has joined #lisp 12:33:07 mcstar: What's up? 12:33:10 I have an answer to do with garbage collection, let's see if they match! 12:33:19 ok 12:33:27 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-145-192.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 12:33:28 suppose i have a list 12:33:32 the lements a structs 12:33:39 sry 12:33:44 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-145-192.vologda.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 12:33:45 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-59-21.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 12:33:45 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-59-21.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Changing host] 12:33:45 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 12:33:46 the elements are structs 12:34:01 and i bind a list to a variable with setq 12:34:07 mcstar: you can write more than 5 words per line. no need to hit enter frequently. 12:34:11 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.160.2] has joined #lisp 12:34:11 -!- udzinari [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: zzzzzzZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzz] 12:34:23 What's the upper limit? 256 characters/line? 512? 12:34:34 640k should be enough for anybody. 12:34:37 ok so i will bind new lists to this variable frequently 12:34:50 Certainly long enough for a letter to grandma. 12:35:11 lets say the length of the list can be 1000 elemets 12:35:22 nyef: rfc says 512, including the PRIVMSG USERNAME 12:35:39 Hun: Sounds believable, thanks. 12:35:58 so when i do this, do i pollute memory, or will they get instantly garbage collected? 12:35:59 Hun: Also including line terminators? 12:36:29 i think so. the part with PRIVMSG means that users with shorter nicks get to write longer lines 12:36:46 mcstar: It depends. On a refcounting GC they are instantly collected, but refcounting GCs are a joke in all other respects. 12:36:58 its sbcl 12:37:05 mcstar: When and how things get garbage collected is not specified. "Pollution" will depend on the implementation. If you're worried, profile and tune. 12:37:14 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-145-192.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 12:37:28 mcstar: It's best not to worry unless there is a visible problem, like exhausting memory or running way too slow for the project to be successful. 12:37:35 Ah. In SBCL, they hang around until the GC runs, and then potentially indefinitely afterwards depending on what objects you have pinned and what's on your control stacks. 12:37:40 (running way too slow for your intuition is rarely fatal) 12:38:16 ok thx 12:38:16 Hun: No, the part with PRIVMSG means that -channels- with shorter nicks allow longer lines, and users with shorter nicks can receive longer lines. 12:38:42 oh, right. it's been a long while since i had contact with that :) 12:39:12 ("Way too slow" is something like "takes nine hours to do what it should be able to in seconds.") 12:39:29 well its supposed to run under a second 12:39:43 ... or it was for me, the first time I massively overloaded the GC. 12:40:00 and another thing 12:40:15 can u give me advice with: with-timeout? 12:40:29 Ah, WITH-TIMEOUT. The best advice here is: Don't use it. 12:40:48 yeah, but i need the second best advice 12:40:53 Blkt [~Blkt@dynamic-adsl-94-34-25-159.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 12:41:13 Okay, don't use it for anything that has even the slightest chance of going wrong if unwound from a "bad place". 12:41:42 -!- mobydick [~textual@124-171-72-nwork.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 12:41:59 yeah, im a noobie, so i dont fully understand you :) 12:42:19 Then go with the best advice. 12:42:28 The second-best advice is really an experts-only kind of thing. 12:42:43 Unless what you're doing is compute-bound, you might be better off with a deadline. 12:42:43 -!- nalaginrut [~nalaginru@183.15.186.212] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:42:59 lets say data arent shared, the calls arent interdependent 12:43:19 nalaginrut [~nalaginru@183.15.186.212] has joined #lisp 12:43:40 good day everyone 12:43:48 Are you doing anything at all in terms of I/O within the timeout? 12:43:54 (Because, if so, don't!) 12:44:36 no, it would probably do some arithmetic, and list-lookup such things 12:44:53 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:45:05 ... And what happens with the results? 12:45:35 lets say the core destructively modifies a devar variable 12:45:41 defvar 12:46:12 Hrm... Destructively modifies an existing special binding... 12:46:25 mobydick [~textual@124-171-72-nwork.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 12:46:46 The TLS slot is already allocated, and TLS-allocation is P-A anyway... 12:47:06 -!- astudent [~astudent@nat-128-42-219-116.rice.edu] has quit [Quit: http://irc2go.com/] 12:47:15 im using CL for a month approximately 12:47:23 i have no idea about TLS P-A 12:47:24 Why is this so time-sensitive that you would want to slap a with-timeout on it? 12:47:36 Right, TLS and P-A are (separate) SBCL internals concepts. 12:48:07 it supposed to run for 1 or 2 second at a time 12:48:14 Although TLS slots in general are found in most threading systems, and P-A is also found in CMUCL. 12:48:17 i must make a decision by that 12:48:28 and i want to fall back to a simpler deceison 12:48:37 if the main deceison tree times out 12:48:40 -!- dullard [~user@188-223-137-38.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:49:01 -!- nalaginrut [~nalaginru@183.15.186.212] has quit [Quit: ] 12:49:10 How strong is "must", and can you "just" guarantee that the main decision tree will return before then? 12:49:11 i cant use any threads, it must run only one 12:49:45 Yeah, I'm thinking about things like "what can go wrong if this scenario is interrupted in a bad place?" 12:50:06 "Where are the weak points in what SBCL does for this operation?" 12:50:09 Things like that. 12:50:39 well, if the compute core uses let for all its variables, except binding the result at the end, what can go wrong? 12:50:52 Yes, exactly! 12:51:08 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 12:51:10 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:51:28 for example if i say (defun fun (var) (let ((something var)) body 12:51:31 You're mutating an existing binding, so that should be fine, any access to lexical variables is typically fine... 12:51:58 its ok isnt it? 12:52:19 It might be. 12:52:35 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:52:52 At the same time, with-timeout is deprecated for very good reason, even if it /is/ useful for compute-bound tasks like this. 12:53:40 i searched the sbcl manual, and i havent come up with anything else 12:53:41 Also note that the GC blocks timeouts, so that could extend your runtime a bit. 12:54:07 Right, "anything else" is deadlines and manually checking to see if the deadline has expired. 12:54:43 you mean in the most inner function i check periodically? 12:54:56 inner-most 12:55:07 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:55:29 That's a bit of a judgment call, really. You would want to check fairly often, but not too often, you know? 12:55:57 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:55:57 -!- hankhero [~Adium@c-b21fbc28-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:56:06 If you check too often you end up spending more time checking the clock than doing work, which means that not enough work gets done. 12:56:18 If you don't check often enough you end up working past your deadline for a bit 12:56:21 yeah, ok i get it 12:56:26 ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has joined #lisp 12:56:56 Good morning. 12:57:02 A timeout is more interrupt-driven, so you can't miss it that way, but that has costs in and of itself. 12:57:08 Mostly safety costs. 12:57:13 cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has joined #lisp 12:57:31 ok ill try to do it in the second way , thx nyef 12:58:02 Your other option, as I said, is to try and make sure that your decision tree is simple enough that it always returns within your deadline anyway. 12:58:49 And I'm /mostly/ convinced that timeouts could be safe for you. Certainly haven't seen any of the warning signs that say "you just screwed up, and are going to run out of file descriptors" or anything like that. 12:59:35 oh, no, no outside access except minimal stdin/stdout 12:59:57 You just screwed up, and are going to run out of address space for stream buffers. 13:00:43 aha 13:00:47 joke 13:00:49 ok 13:01:08 (Ha, ha, only serious.) 13:01:29 I'm not at all sure how "safe" the fd-stream buffer handling is. 13:01:46 Or, for that matter, the rest of the fd-stream machinery. 13:02:32 i dont open many streams, maybe a couple of with-string-stream or somesuch 13:02:41 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.160.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:03:15 I'd worry if you touch existing streams, though. 13:03:57 well i completely dont undestand you :) why would i worry? 13:04:27 Because the internals of the stream implementation might contain a number of "bad places" for a timeout to arrive. 13:05:00 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-150-156.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:05:01 but that part wont touch IO, only function in higher in the code-tree 13:06:08 well, now its time to write some code, ty and bb all 13:06:13 Good luck. 13:06:18 -!- mcstar [~mcstar@adsl-89-132-34-244.monradsl.monornet.hu] has left #lisp 13:06:18 And have fun. 13:07:37 fd stream buffers should be mostly safe -- you can eg. lose data on unwind, but the system should not get into a broken state 13:07:38 -!- alfa_y_omega_ [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:08:02 serve-event, on the other hand, doesn't like unwinds _at_all_ 13:08:38 alfa_y_omega_ [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #lisp 13:09:11 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 13:10:32 alph_cent [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:11:41 Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 13:12:03 -!- leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:12:18 Anyone know of a good library for parsing HTTP requests, headers and such? 13:12:50 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 13:12:54 I only really see actualy HTTP servers on Cliki.net/Web, but thats not really what i want 13:12:57 actual* 13:13:17 Munksgaard: I'd imagine that any decent web server (such as hunchentoot) should have support for parsing the headers, and with a compatible license you can just swipe the bits you want. 13:13:24 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:13:59 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 13:15:04 -!- mobydick [~textual@124-171-72-nwork.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 13:15:07 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.162.63] has joined #lisp 13:16:41 -!- Amadiro_ is now known as Amadiro 13:17:55 Munksgaard: what application did you have in mind? 13:19:21 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-wswmkkcqcenxeuyd] has left #lisp 13:20:01 amirhoshangi [~amir@95.38.52.69] has joined #lisp 13:20:58 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 13:22:32 Demosthenes [~demo@m442436d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 13:22:33 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.162.63] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:24:39 hi guys im migrating from clisp to sbcl slime 13:25:02 how to reading Docs and help on functions in it ? 13:25:19 what about macro expansion in slime ? 13:25:34 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@chello213047090155.3.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:25:41 amirhoshangi: You can use C-c C-m to macroexpand the form at the point. 13:25:50 amirhoshangi: your usual keybindings don't work any more? 13:26:12 keybindings ? 13:26:26 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:26:31 Munksgaard: Quicklisp includes a labels-driven HTTP response (not request) parser. It would be easy to extend to POST requests, but would need more work for MIME. 13:26:33 Xach: I want to create a very simple http server which should be able to accept a few non-standard headers. I've created a simple http-server with iolib, but i was looking to handle requests, uris and headers more robustly 13:26:35 amirhoshangi: yes, like C-c C-m and C-c C-d d 13:26:52 non-standard requests* 13:27:22 let me checkem 13:27:25 *Xach* isn't sure how readable his implementation is, but a father always loves his code children 13:27:28 Hm. I suspect Emacs would be more palatable to the vi crowd if there were a way to enter "control key pressed" mode :) 13:27:31 -!- euphidime [u178@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mrjmuyochxyakfbz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:28:56 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:29:10 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:29:52 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:30:18 Xach: I'm not really concerned about MIME at the moment, so i guess i'll look into quicklisp and hunchentoot. 13:30:52 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d0037fa.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 13:31:29 -!- jingtao`` [~jingtaozf@123.120.2.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:31:49 Please tell me if this is far enough off-topic that no one wants to hear it, but how many of you use arrow keys? Maybe I can get over this hurdle by using arrow keys, which would cut back significantly on my control-key usage. 13:32:26 *Xach* very rarely uses arrow keys 13:32:43 *Xach* converts capslock to control 13:33:00 I do that too, but I still find most of my emacs sessions are one-handed with the other hand dedicated to control. 13:33:50 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 13:33:57 i use arrow keys, but mostly with a modifier, or when "idly thinking about stuff under the cursor" 13:34:26 The notion of "idle thinking" sounds like it describes my normal mode. :) 13:34:32 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-ampauztvaohushpr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:34:40 I really wish to like Emacs. Viper seems a dodgy half-measure. 13:35:59 -!- cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:36:12 ChibaPet: i only dedicate one finger for control key 13:36:45 -!- amirhoshangi [~amir@95.38.52.69] has left #lisp 13:36:53 ChibaPet: just take your time and learn it with a fresh mind. 13:37:05 Yeah, I've had difficulty getting more than two or three fingers on it at once. The point being, I need to find some way to not dislike the different way it handles modes. 13:37:19 I've been at about the same level of competence with Emacs for 20 years now. :P 13:37:27 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-fowsrxkrcswzcszl] has joined #lisp 13:38:42 Oh well. I'll stick with Viper for a bit and see how far I can go in insert mode before the bucky bits bore into my head again. 13:39:24 recently i realized that there is a use for vi-style editor: if the editor is in the browser. trying to use e.g. http://www.ymacs.org/ is an exercise in futility. 13:39:47 but then again, some people use vimperator, which turns the whole picture upside down 13:40:47 ChibaPet: the clue that you should stop using vi is when the first letter you type in browser (or any other text entry) is letter 'i' 13:41:15 especially if that is not the first letter of the text you're typing 13:41:18 euphidime [u178@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pgasyabyktnubkby] has joined #lisp 13:41:43 Honestly, I don't ever seem to do that. I'll pipe down about this, though. Too off-topic. I'm just convinced that Emacs is the right tool for CL development, and I want to find a way to get along with it. 13:42:06 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.166.155] has joined #lisp 13:42:12 chiba: practice, perseverance, and patience. 13:42:39 (I do find that I automatically assume I can use emacs-style navigation inside of fields.) 13:42:44 chiba: just focus on solving some real problem, and the issue of learning Emacs will slowly tart to melt into the background. 13:42:54 Will do. 13:44:51 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-fowsrxkrcswzcszl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:45:23 ChibaPet: the ctrl keys should be next to the spacebar, so you can right-thumb+left finger or vice versa. 13:45:51 splittist2: not a pianist, I take it? :p 13:45:55 I think Sun Type IV keyboards ruined me for that. I tend to expect the control key to be to the left of my 'a' 13:46:11 (And Happy Hacking keyboards.) 13:46:27 (I expect Alt/Meta/Command to be next to the space bar.) 13:46:42 -!- billitch [~billitch@78.250.216.113] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:46:46 pkhoung: been there, hated it. Perhaps I'm projecting my piano lesson hate onto modern keyboards! 13:47:06 rfg [~rfg@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:47:23 ChibaPet: I didn't need any hardware to ruin it for me, just ~/.xmodmap. 13:47:45 Anyways, isn't you HHK a blank one? 13:48:09 I don't use one now, but I did for years before the silly blank one existed. :P 13:48:40 I've got a Das Keyboard III (the 1 broke), and a Filco TenKeyLess, both blank. 13:49:15 Aren't we heavy keyboard users, if I used up a DasKeyboard 1? 13:49:17 I've simply dropped into the rut of realizing that there are still modes in Emacs, and that Emacs defaults to insert mode by default, with command mode requiring a keypress rather than a pre-existing state. 13:49:21 lbc_ [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 13:49:22 _pw_ [~user@123.112.69.29] has joined #lisp 13:49:50 Yes, of course, just like any other "modeless" GUI. 13:50:00 Isn't the mouse a mode, vs. the keyboard? 13:50:21 It is. I eschew heavy mousing. 13:50:31 The point is to be able to switch from mode to mode smoothly. 13:50:47 Sure, it's easier to press control or meta, than to move the hand over to the mouse. 13:50:48 jna [u473@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gfyffpgbmvortier] has joined #lisp 13:50:52 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:51:12 amirhoshangi [~amir@95.38.52.69] has joined #lisp 13:51:36 -!- _pw_ [~user@123.112.69.29] has left #lisp 13:51:41 billitch [~billitch@78.250.216.113] has joined #lisp 13:51:49 ChibaPet: next thing is Tan Le's device, so that you can switch mode just thinking about it. 13:52:14 http://www.ted.com/talks/tan_le_a_headset_that_reads_your_brainwaves.html 13:52:18 That seems like a good idea. 13:52:27 Pedals might be an option too. 13:53:11 emacs Slime really bothers me ? is slimv as powerful as that ? 13:53:14 Pedals? I want to use my d**k 13:53:24 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:53:29 Pedals on your desk? 13:53:54 Excactly 13:54:07 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:54:08 amirhoshangi: How come? 13:55:05 dlowe_nb [~dlowe@74.125.60.4] has joined #lisp 13:55:10 mydik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:17 ive a vim background no i idea about emacs 13:55:30 Are you using slimv.vim? 13:55:47 no, im using clisp 13:55:59 its interaction mode is really good. 13:56:12 but im going to use real IDE. 13:56:51 amiroshangi: TI or Symbolics? 13:57:15 *amirhoshangi, that is 13:57:35 splittist2: you mean slimv ? 13:57:58 I was wondering what you meant by 'real IDE' 13:58:11 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:58:26 splittist2: i mean not just clisp repl mode 13:58:50 amirhoshangi, yes, but what did you have in mind instead of clisp repl mode? 13:59:20 ppl adviced about emacs slime and ... 13:59:37 ... all hell broke loose? 14:00:51 im sure now using emacs for vimer is as hard as, killing /bin/laden :) 14:02:06 Lectus [~fred@189.104.240.201] has joined #lisp 14:03:24 getting rid of imaginary things should not be hard if you really want to do it 14:08:26 amirhoshangi: I was a die hard vimer and it took about a week for me to really get comfortable. 14:09:35 does anyone have mirrors of dan_b's cvs or darcs? specifically, sexql? 14:09:55 *lichtblau* looks at Mr. antifuchs, who is apparently still using it 14:10:03 sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 14:10:07 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:19 dlowe_nb: good to hear that, i think i need couple of weeks ! 14:10:45 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.194] has joined #lisp 14:11:58 -!- rfg [~rfg@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: rfg] 14:13:38 cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has joined #lisp 14:13:38 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has quit [Changing host] 14:13:38 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 14:15:22 -!- dlowe_nb [~dlowe@74.125.60.4] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:18:05 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:21:17 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.166.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:22:17 jamckon [~drew@c-98-236-72-17.hsd1.wv.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:22:48 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:22:57 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 14:24:25 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.201.9] has joined #lisp 14:25:43 -!- lbc_ [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:27:44 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:27:57 xan_ [~xan@205.158.58.41.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:18 Geef [~Geef@249.Red-83-33-83.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:20 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 14:32:15 rfg [~rfg@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:34:37 -!- jamckon [~drew@c-98-236-72-17.hsd1.wv.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:35:00 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Quit: eugu] 14:36:02 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 14:36:05 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:37:59 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c72ce0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 14:39:39 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:43:45 amirhoshangi: Did you see my linedit screencast? 14:44:00 amirhoshangi: http://xach.com/lisp/linedit-screencast.gif 14:44:28 i saw it on twitter 14:45:16 amirhoshangi: So the sbcl repl does not have to lack history or autocomplete 14:46:30 yeah tnx 14:47:11 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@m442436d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:47:19 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 14:50:41 Is there a reason that sb-pcl:class-slots returns effictive-slot-definitions which have the readers & writers slots set to nil, but sb-pcl:class-direct-slots returns a direct-slot-definition where readers & writers set to their correct / declared values? Is this just an oversite or is there something fundamental about effective-slot-defs that make setting these slots difficult? 14:53:24 Xach: it says , package "QL" not found 14:54:46 udzinari [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 14:54:54 amirhoshangi: You need to install Quicklisp first. 14:54:56 bobbysmith007: because that's the way the MOP works? See http://www.alu.org/mop/concepts.html 14:55:05 amir: quicklisp.org/beta 14:57:08 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:59:11 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.223.134.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:00:05 -!- superjudge [~mjl@195.22.80.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:00:21 splittist2: thanks, I guess I was thrown by the appearance of those slots (which I guess according to the standard should always be nil). It seems like either those slots should be setable, not exist, or there should be access to the direct slot def from the effective, but what do I know 15:01:19 ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has joined #lisp 15:02:49 -!- amirhoshangi [~amir@95.38.52.69] has left #lisp 15:03:02 bobbysmith007: I do something in Quid Pro Quo that collects direct slots across all superclasses. It probably does some bad things (like traversing some classes multiple times, but whatever): https://github.com/sellout/quid-pro-quo/blob/master/src/metaclass.lisp#L94 15:06:27 hi, i've posted a lisp webapp for reviews to hn, please give an upvote if you think:) http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2510171 15:07:28 The_Fellow [~The_Fello@glida.mooo.com] has joined #lisp 15:09:44 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 15:13:43 Xach: you are only person I have ever seen that does screencasts with GIFs 15:14:29 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-wqqybfxkggzrvbpz] has joined #lisp 15:16:49 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-sudjojevinmffkny] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:17:51 they're actually pretty well suited for an emacs session. All sorts of optimizations can be done. 15:20:25 sellout: thanks for the idea 15:20:27 katesmith [~katesmith@97-89-229-3.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 15:20:27 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@97-89-229-3.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 15:20:27 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 15:23:19 ikki [~ikki@189.139.219.93] has joined #lisp 15:25:27 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 15:25:45 -!- mydik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:25:57 fortitudeZDY [~fortitude@210.192.101.123] has joined #lisp 15:26:28 -!- tcr [~tcr@host187.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:28:35 mydik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:14 -!- udzinari [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: zzzzzzZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzz] 15:35:17 -!- alfa_y_omega_ [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:35:33 Spion__ [~spion@79.125.200.150] has joined #lisp 15:36:52 loke [~elias@bb116-14-102-199.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 15:37:41 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:38:09 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:38:10 pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:41 alfa_y_omega_ [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #lisp 15:39:59 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-133-4.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:42:16 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:44:00 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-213-105.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 15:44:19 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 15:45:06 Bike [~arm_of_th@69.166.35.237] has joined #lisp 15:45:18 udzinari [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 15:45:32 well, one thing, if lisps do translate asm, are those compiler generated or hand written ? 15:45:38 lol 15:46:41 -!- alph_cent [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:47:16 anyone have a good resource for format ? 15:47:19 with examples ? 15:48:03 what do you mean by "translate asm"? 15:48:15 translate to asm, sorry.... 15:48:29 hi 15:48:38 or down to instead of only to 15:48:52 I've finished a lisp program to solve circuit, I'm in the testing phase right now!!! ;) 15:48:53 the low-level compiler in sbcl is written in lisp and generates asm on its own, if that's what you meant 15:49:03 yep 15:49:17 lnostdal: is it true asm or bytecode? 15:49:21 ok, so the generation of asm is the part i don't fully understand 15:49:38 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:49:51 lnostdal: (load (compile-file "antani.list")) would it generate asm? 15:50:01 Posterdati, it's a true native compiler; no byte code 15:50:13 lnostdal: good 15:50:16 ah ok, that's sbcl, cmucl is bytecode not ? 15:50:25 lnostdal: are binary stand alone? 15:51:07 milanj [~milanj_@212.200.194.87] has joined #lisp 15:51:43 now people I'd like to develop a qt/kde interface for my program :) 15:51:44 no, they need a run-time; just like C binaries need a C run-time (glibc) .. it's often easier to just include the run-time "inside" the binary or executable 15:52:05 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:52:28 lnostdal: I'm interested, for this project, to compile an executable and distribute it to people for free 15:55:38 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:56:12 Posterdati, http://paste.lisp.org/display/90903 15:56:42 Is there a multithread messaging library like what Erlang provides for CL? 15:56:53 homie: CMUCL is some weird interpreter of half-compiled stuff, and native code. 15:57:04 loke: message queues? sure. 15:57:10 Posterdati, You can also try cl-launch or buildapp 15:57:12 The interesting part of erlang? no. 15:57:30 pkhuong: got a project name, that I can use to start reading? 15:57:42 sbcl 15:57:50 lnostdal: very well, is what I'm looking for 15:57:52 s sb-concurrency has lock-free message queues. 15:58:03 And the question of "real native code" vs. "bytecode" is somewhat disingenuous these days, given CPU simulators, and the guts of modern CPUs. 15:58:12 pkhuong: Thanks. Now I can google :-) 15:58:25 Otherwise, there's probably dozens of mutex/condition variable implementations. 15:58:39 I'll post my code for you next week, We are testing it a lot before releasing it 15:59:09 hope it would be of help 15:59:28 ah I used maxima to develop diode model :) 15:59:40 pnq [~nick@AC814DFA.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 16:00:00 pkhuong: thanks, but no thanks. :-) I've been implementing my stuff using mutexes and condvars today, and while I was doing it (in a very Java-esque mind you) I kept thinking there must be a better way. I started looking around, and I've been playing around with CL-STM for the last couple of hours. 16:00:23 CL-STM is... well... interesting. 16:00:27 -!- longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:01:49 loke: I'm sorry to be the one breaking this to you, but, at high-concurrency levels, you'll likely find mutexes and condition variables somewhere in the stack. 16:02:57 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 16:05:09 pkhuong: Sure. I just don't want implement my code using them directly. 16:05:22 pkhuong: Higher-level structures are always nicer for this kind of stuff. 16:06:05 pkhuong: I've spent far too many years doing the low-level stuff in Java and I'm very comfortable with it. In Lisp, however, it just doesn't fell natural to use them anymore. 16:06:09 Bronsa [~brace@host62-182-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:06:10 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 16:06:14 -!- fortitudeZDY [~fortitude@210.192.101.123] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:06:57 Sure, you're preaching to the choir; funny enough, I find the solution seem to go through using Lisp for significantly lower level functionality than Java provides. 16:07:27 pkhuong: what's lower level than mutexes and condvars? 16:07:30 Stuff like or 16:07:58 compare-and-swap, packing bits together to exploit atomicity guarantees, that sort of things. 16:08:00 You can always mix your lisp with your java for something truly frankensteinesque 16:08:35 pkhuong: but... to use that stuff you need access to memory barrier ops directly. How do you handle cache coherency? 16:08:52 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-186-80.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:09:03 nyef: did you have something for me to read the other day? I think I got distracted... 16:09:13 compare-and-swap is its own barrier for x86. Otherwise, we have plans to expose them in SBCL, just like CAS. 16:09:20 -!- splittist2 [~splittist@208-234.1-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:09:20 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:09:27 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.53] has joined #lisp 16:09:46 pkhuong: to my knowledge, it's not a barrier on SPARC. Does that mean your code won't work there? 16:09:57 SBCL doesn't have threads there. 16:10:05 Oh. Solved then :-) 16:10:19 Landr [~user@78-21-55-79.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 16:11:27 pkhuong: do you think it's even theoretically possible to implement light-weight threads (coroutines? Or is it what's called "fibres") in SBCL? 16:11:52 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.188.134] has joined #lisp 16:13:27 alph_cent [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:13:47 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl22-75-103.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 16:14:17 paul0 [~user@189.26.129.50.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 16:14:35 slyrus: Might have been http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/notes-on-clim-silica.org 16:14:51 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:15:08 slyrus: I have another set of notes on the geometry stuff that I've been working on, but haven't pushed to the web yet. 16:15:12 someone already used cl-mongo? Don't know how to get a value from a document 16:15:20 nyef: ok, thanks! 16:15:55 pkhuong: "Plans to expose them"? We already have the barrier framework in place, and implemented for all threaded targets, don't we? 16:16:05 -!- zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:17:22 salva [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 16:17:48 slyrus: The geometry layer is crazy stuff, but kindof fun, and the only real troublesome case appears to be the ELLIPSE object when any part of the arc appears on the boundary of a region. 16:19:12 pavelludiq [57f63ac1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 16:20:34 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-wqqybfxkggzrvbpz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:20:56 Umm... and didn't I declare that the CAS VOPs were always to be memory barriers? 16:21:08 lichtblau: /wow/. sexql. I haven't used that in a looong time 16:21:24 lichtblau: rewrote my one piece of code that used it to use postmodern in 2009 (: 16:21:41 but I'll look, maybe I still have a checkout somewhere 16:22:09 and what do you know, I do! 16:24:26 antifuchs: wait, I don't care about sexql itself. Are you saying autobench doesn't use it anymore? 16:24:29 For all PPC CAS VOPs I'm seeing a SYNC at the beginning and an ISYNC at the end, so CAS is /currently/ always a memory barrier. 16:24:46 lichtblau: nope, it's all postmodern's sexp stuff now 16:25:06 if you're looking at the github or git.boinkor repo, the current code is in the "modernize" branch 16:25:13 grr 16:25:21 eek 16:25:32 were you using the old master branch? ): 16:25:39 yay weird branch names :-) 16:25:45 yeah, heh 16:25:53 I really should just merge modernize into master 16:26:01 it's what I use all the time nowadays anyway 16:26:25 Aha! And the fine manual also mentions barriers, and that atomic-{incf,decf}, compare-and-swap, and the mutex, semaphore, and condition functions all act as barriers. 16:26:34 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:26:46 jmbr [~jmbr@157.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:27:21 -!- Geef [~Geef@249.Red-83-33-83.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:31:08 lichtblau: I've updated the master branch now. you can use that now (: 16:31:45 cool, I'll pass that on to the colleague who's asking 16:32:17 *lichtblau* is looking forward to win32 autobench graphs 16:32:23 ooooh 16:32:29 very neat! 16:32:37 well, s/win32/wine/ 16:33:38 huh, that looks like a pretty nice classification: http://blog.fogus.me/2011/05/03/the-german-school-of-lisp-2/ 16:34:47 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:37:40 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.208] has joined #lisp 16:37:54 antifuchs: It's an at least superficially plausible classification. I'm not entirely convinced, though. 16:38:53 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 16:39:15 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 16:39:43 Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:15 I rather enjoyed the newLISP example (: 16:40:53 dmiles [~dmiles@71.56.149.8] has joined #lisp 16:41:10 zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:23 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@71.56.149.8] has quit [Client Quit] 16:42:35 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:43:10 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:44:29 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:46:40 -!- pnq [~nick@AC814DFA.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:47:33 -!- Buganini [~buganini@2001:288:c237:0:dead:beef:cafe:babe] has quit [Quit: switch from screen to tmux] 16:47:59 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:21 cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 16:49:11 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 16:50:16 Buganini [~buganini@2001:288:c237:0:dead:beef:cafe:babe] has joined #lisp 16:50:19 -!- bege [~bege@S0106001cf0520ea3.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:51:32 -!- zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:54:09 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.139.219.93] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:55:18 -!- alfa_y_omega_ [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:56:05 -!- greaver [~J@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:56:23 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 16:56:58 alfa_y_omega_ [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #lisp 16:58:29 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-191-160.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:58:35 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d0037fa.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:58:35 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-213-105.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:01:39 basho__ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-238-172.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:12 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-213-105.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 17:04:55 zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:18 spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-72-5.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:05:26 -!- spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-72-5.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 17:07:09 Joreji [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:08:05 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:13:26 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-179-47-161.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:31 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:14:16 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 17:14:59 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-32-12-181.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:15:29 slyrus: Just pushed http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/notes-on-clim-geometry.org 17:17:28 HG` [~HG@p5DC04F50.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:54 -!- loke [~elias@bb116-14-102-199.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:18:48 pnq [~nick@AC81196A.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 17:19:53 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:20:07 loke [~elias@bb116-14-102-199.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 17:21:47 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has joined #lisp 17:22:19 -!- Borbus [borbus@borbus.kicks-ass.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:22:24 Borbus [borbus@borbus.kicks-ass.net] has joined #lisp 17:23:45 nyef: why are things so complex? In maths, there doesn't seem to be any difficulty in defining points, lines and surfaces. (Well, there are degenerate definitions, such as those involving chaotic or fractal equations, but ignoring those...) 17:27:15 carlocci [~nes@93.37.213.61] has joined #lisp 17:27:17 ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 17:27:42 splittist2 [~splittist@188.62.245.30] has joined #lisp 17:27:48 mapping them onto a discrete grid of pixels quickly is the hard part 17:28:21 -!- xan_ [~xan@205.158.58.41.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:28:52 defining points using real numbers is easy. using real numbers in computers is hard. 17:29:28 -!- Guthur [c743cb8c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.140] has quit [Disconnected by services] 17:29:42 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 17:30:27 LiamH [~none@132.250.138.103] has joined #lisp 17:31:05 francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has joined #lisp 17:31:15 pjb: Some chunk of the complexity is the dimensionality conservation. You can't get a line from declaring a rectangle with zero width, for example, you end up with +NOWHERE+ instead. 17:31:23 agumonkey [agumonkey@150.59.83-79.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:37 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:31:50 how do I output this into a variable? (loop for i from 0 to 100 do (format t "C:/Brown/fig~a.png " i)) ? 17:32:16 with-output-to-string? 17:32:16 <[df]> collect (format nil ... 17:32:19 nyef: if you define a rectangle as a set of pixel, that's understandable. As a set of points (infinitely small entities), then you should not get +NOWHERE+. 17:32:24 jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.56] has joined #lisp 17:32:39 <[df]> well, depends whether you want one string or many I guess 17:32:58 collect format nil will give several strings but I need one big one 17:32:59 So indeed, the question should be what is working in mathematical geometry spaces, and what is working in pixel maps. 17:33:20 with-output-to-string... maybe 17:33:22 (setq (values (loop..)) blah) ? 17:33:22 <[df]> what stassats said then 17:33:38 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:33:44 pjb: So, it's not geometry-as-set-theory, it's something a bit different. 17:33:45 does he want to store the values into a symbol ? 17:33:46 <[df]> or generate the list of numbers first then use ~{ or whatever the complex format thing I can never remember is 17:34:01 ikki [~ikki@189.139.219.93] has joined #lisp 17:34:24 nyef: well, my point is that perhaps we should define a layer of geometry as set theory, and a rendering mapping from this layer to the pixel maps. Then see if we really need anything more at the pixel level. 17:34:33 The real questions are, is it in some sense "complete", is it useful, and is it implementable on a computer. 17:35:06 Honestly, I'd have been happy with geometry defined as points and sets of axis-aligned rectangles. 17:35:38 nyef: some applications require more a sophisticated definition, including transformations. 17:35:55 francogrex: or (format nil "~{C:/Brown/fig~a.png~^~%~}"(loop for i to 100 collect i)) 17:36:07 On the other hand, some simple application want and only need to deal with the pixels. 17:36:09 Sure, and some applications require the intersection of two lines that actually cross to return a point. 17:37:05 I'm actually less concerned about what some applications need, and more concerned with what the specification says. 17:37:32 Anyways, that'd be my advice, clearly separate the two layers. That would also mean that a mathematical line cannot be draw (it's infinitely small), but it can be "stroked" (a countour is defined and filled with pixels). 17:37:59 the spec was written by a raving madman! 17:38:01 (-: 17:38:08 nyef: the specification is something else. It may be inconsistent or outdated. I don't know. 17:38:18 antifuchs: No, it was written by a committee of raving madmen. 17:38:30 I don't know what's worse 17:38:42 raveman 17:38:44 don't touch the original manuscript, or you'll get rabies 17:38:53 yes perfect, it was to use png2swf to make animations 17:39:01 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:39:17 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:25 pjb: Both, actually. And completely unintelligable in places unless you know what the underlying model they're trying to explain is supposed to be, and then it's still wrong. 17:40:49 I think the design model might actually be specified in terms of strokes over paths and whatnot. 17:40:58 -!- francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:41:26 At the same time, said design model also looks like a bolt-on feature and not actually fundamental to the system. 17:41:52 -!- stis1 [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has left #lisp 17:42:33 (Actually, the -color- model is similarly insane: Colors are unbounded regions equivalent to +everywhere+, but with "color" as well.) 17:42:38 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:42:41 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:43:04 It makes a certain amount of sense, but... ugh. 17:45:36 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:49:07 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-213-105.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:49:08 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.188.134] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:49:28 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:50:38 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:51:49 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:36 what is the english translation of the german word 'fluchtpunkt'? 17:54:03 vanishing point 17:54:10 thanks 17:58:38 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 17:58:57 xan_ [~xan@99.13.242.166] has joined #lisp 17:58:58 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-32-12-181.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:01:17 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 18:03:57 stis [~stis@host-78-79-198-148.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 18:04:06 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 18:06:20 jmbr_ [~jmbr@vpn134.vpn.ucm.es] has joined #lisp 18:08:10 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@157.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:08:13 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-32-12-181.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:56 bad_alloc [~bad_alloc@HSI-KBW-085-216-109-135.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 18:09:56 jmbr__ [~jmbr@157.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:10:05 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:10:53 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81196A.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:11:38 -!- jmbr_ [~jmbr@vpn134.vpn.ucm.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:11:58 -!- Spion__ [~spion@79.125.200.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:13:42 Spion__ [~spion@79.125.200.150] has joined #lisp 18:15:48 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:15:53 leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has joined #lisp 18:16:10 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 18:16:13 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:17:29 -!- loke [~elias@bb116-14-102-199.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:18:20 nyef: I haven't followed SBCL for a while, sorry (: 18:19:47 loke [~elias@bb116-14-111-203.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 18:21:05 pkhuong: I'm possibly a little bit out of the loop myself at this point, but barriers were part of the ppc threading work I did a few months ago. 18:22:23 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 18:22:55 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-4356673a.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:13 -!- sacho [~sacho@95-42-64-32.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:23:32 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C4418.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:31 -!- workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:24:43 maxigas [~user@mail.szervermegoldasok.hu] has joined #lisp 18:29:21 pnq [~nick@AC81DB7B.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 18:29:52 fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-172-133.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 18:31:23 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 18:38:53 nyef, are you working on an implementation of CLIM II 18:39:10 Guthur: Semi-sortof. 18:39:13 -!- mtd [~martin@chop.xades.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:39:26 Right now I'm more concentrating on understanding the spec. 18:39:30 mtd [~martin@chop.xades.com] has joined #lisp 18:39:49 is it at a very early stage in development then? 18:40:08 Yes, with an eye towards working out an implementation strategy, but it's still too early to commit to more than that. 18:40:28 What little code I have will quite possibly be completely rewritten later on. 18:40:35 someone here has experience with cl-mongo? I can't retrieve a value from a document 18:41:32 nyef: would it be possible with in a CLIM application to have a portion available for OpenGL rendering 18:42:03 Guthur: Yes, and hefner and I at one point made that happen in McCLIM. 18:42:17 oh, nice 18:42:34 Guthur: The basic trick is that you can get the mirror from a mirrored sheet, and it will be a "native" window system object of some sort. 18:42:44 So on a CLX port, it'll typically be a CLX:WINDOW object. 18:43:02 ok 18:43:04 From there, you can put up a GLX context, and draw. 18:43:12 nyef, cool 18:43:25 -!- HG` [~HG@p5DC04F50.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:43:40 The reason it didn't work when originally tried, of course, was that there was a bug in the GLX code that desynched the X request numbers whenever a GL render request went out. 18:44:21 Is that code available publicly 18:44:31 Once that happens, CLX will lock up looking for a reply to some request with the wrong sequence number. 18:44:41 Umm... Possibly. Let me see if I can find it. 18:45:42 http://paste.lisp.org/display/81572 18:45:47 Not sure how up-to-date that is. 18:46:00 You will probably need a glx-fixes branch of clx in order to run it. 18:46:09 (Pull from my git tree.) 18:46:39 dak [~dak@79.35.84.27] has joined #lisp 18:46:46 ok, I've bookmarked, and may give it a go sometime 18:47:09 I've a lot cl-opengl code to right at the moment 18:47:45 Have fun with that. 18:48:04 hehe, it can be 18:48:21 as long as you take it in small bitesized chunks 18:48:32 -!- dak [~dak@79.35.84.27] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:48:34 it's nice to have something new rendering every so often 18:48:37 drdo` [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 18:48:42 HG` [~HG@p5DC05441.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:46 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.208] has joined #lisp 18:48:51 Soulman [~knute@250.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:49:49 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:52:00 Guthur: Oh, and http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/nq-clim-2011-03-28.tgz if you're interested, but it's a bit of a grab-bag of figuring things out as I went, has three or more generations of code in there, and predates my current round of spec-reading. 18:52:54 Hun` [~hun@95-90-10-28-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:52:58 -!- Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:53:02 nyef, cheers, I get the feeling CLIM is a bit of a beast 18:53:12 It's... different, at least. 18:53:19 but then to be honest most GUI libs are 18:53:30 Took me a while to even get a handle on the input path, TBH. 18:54:28 The geometry stuff I've been wrestling with for the past few days is one of the last bits I needed to figure out before I can put together a new game plan. 18:54:55 I definitely 'watch this space' 18:55:25 I'm not sure how exciting it's going to be, really. 18:55:52 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:56:44 hehe, surely CLIM II must be better that CLIM I 18:56:52 it has an extra 'I' 18:57:10 -!- Buganini [~buganini@2001:288:c237:0:dead:beef:cafe:babe] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:57:12 Maybe we'll see CLIM IV one day... But not very likely. 18:57:39 well if it starts taking that many specs i think we may give up 18:58:18 -!- Liera [~Liera@113.172.38.77] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:59:33 What happened to CLIM III? 19:00:47 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-220-180.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 19:03:27 It will try to be backwards compatible with I and II, and become so convoluted and ambiguous that IV will be required as a compatibility layer for all the implementations 19:04:16 Heh. 19:04:38 -!- tvaalen [~r@67.217.170.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:04:49 -!- hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:05:17 hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:27 Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 19:12:26 -!- Bahman [~bahman@2.146.17.231] has quit [Quit: Farewell] 19:12:41 hi im online? 19:13:06 salva: not sure 19:13:19 maybe, try again to be sure 19:13:23 jeje thanks 19:13:25 -!- Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:13:29 :) 19:13:43 yep you're online 19:13:54 welcome to the Net 19:13:56 hehe 19:14:31 tcr [~tcr@host187.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 19:14:45 i was not sure because this nickname is not mine, 19:15:31 -!- jeekl [~crz@unaffiliated/jeekl] has quit [Quit: jeekl] 19:16:07 is used by default because is my computer username 19:16:31 Well, you can probably change it with /nick 19:18:29 -!- Joreji [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:18:41 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:20:34 "/nick the_real_slim_shady" 19:23:32 -!- agumonkey [agumonkey@150.59.83-79.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [] 19:24:44 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:25:45 -!- orivej [~orivej@93-80-98-142.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:25:52 jeekl [~crz@unaffiliated/jeekl] has joined #lisp 19:26:54 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 19:27:22 "Will the real Slim Shady please shut up?" 19:27:35 drdo`` [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 19:30:24 -!- drdo` [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:30:27 scumbag developers 19:30:32 >use open source software 19:30:47 >won't release their code as open sourcce or contribute to open source software 19:31:03 iori [~iori@110-133-45-54.rev.home.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 19:31:12 what's that about? 19:31:29 discussion about my university developing software and not releasing the source code 19:31:45 The term you are looking for is "parasite" or "leech". 19:31:47 however, they're completely tax-funded, so it could be argued the code ought to be in the public domain at least 19:31:51 lanthan [~ze@p54B7FD6C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:49 -!- lanthan [~ze@p54B7FD6C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:32:56 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.188.134] has joined #lisp 19:34:07 lanthan [~ze@p54B7FD6C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:57 -!- HG` [~HG@p5DC05441.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:35:22 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-99-215.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:38:38 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.139.219.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:41:32 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 19:42:20 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:43:30 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-4356673a.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:43:30 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.188.134] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:44:09 macrocat [~marmalade@142.177.213.148] has joined #lisp 19:44:53 Joreji [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:45:00 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-4356673a.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:03 -!- Bike [~arm_of_th@69.166.35.237] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:49:03 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-172-133.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:50:55 tcr1 [~tcr@host187.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 19:50:55 Landr: hence the goodness of GPL. 19:50:56 -!- tcr [~tcr@host187.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:51:33 The badness of GPL is that you have less choice about -how- you contribute. 19:52:15 -!- stis [~stis@host-78-79-198-148.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:52:16 ikki [~ikki@189.139.219.93] has joined #lisp 19:52:43 DD-WRT and its cousins wouldn't even exist if it weren't for the GPL, so I, for one, am grateful 19:52:57 Hence the goodness of the BSD license, except that that opens you up to leeches. 19:53:12 Triplefault_ [~Mouse@adsl-72-145-215-164.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:26 Sure, I'm grateful for a lot of GPL software and such, but... I really don't like the GPL itself. 19:53:40 The notion is good. All this stuff ought to be free. 19:54:15 Anyway, we really shouldn't have yet another license discussion. Get back to hacking! 19:54:54 hey, what about using guns to enforce software license? 19:55:14 s 19:55:15 ... what do you think the GPL is backed by? 19:55:33 swords? 19:55:41 Guns Patronized License? 19:55:50 -!- Triplefault [~Mouse@adsl-72-145-220-219.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:55:52 http://xkcd.com/225/ 19:56:09 dlowe: Heh. 19:56:57 Anyway, at its root, the GPL, like any legal construct, is backed by the threat of violence. 19:57:42 (The is also the whole "largest armed gang in New York is the NYPD" argument.) 19:58:29 violence is good, it keeps the violent people down 19:58:29 -!- billitch [~billitch@78.250.216.113] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:59:53 -!- bad_alloc [~bad_alloc@HSI-KBW-085-216-109-135.hsi.kabelbw.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 20:01:01 lrce [~user@88-117-76-246.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 20:01:12 -!- rmarianski is now known as rmar|mtng 20:01:17 I guess it'll at least keep the libertarians happy. 20:01:49 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-99-215.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: quit] 20:02:39 jdz [~jdz@host21-105-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:03:09 -!- jeekl [~crz@unaffiliated/jeekl] has quit [Quit: jeekl] 20:04:03 hi is there any good tutorial on sbcl/slime debugger? Thanks 20:04:35 no 20:05:17 1. install 2. whack with a hammer until it runs semi-ok 3. never touch it again 20:05:56 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81DB7B.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:06:22 stassats: good! 20:06:32 Posterdati: yes, you can write one! 20:06:46 stassats: I don't even know how to use it 20:06:57 find out and document the process 20:07:06 I read these numbers just for fun 20:09:01 -!- Areil [~user@113.172.38.77] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:11:12 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C4418.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:12:02 nyef: right, but even without the GPL, the states are behind the authors to exert violence on their behalf. So at least, with the GPL, the authors have a say on how this violence is applied (ie. only to those who'd use the Copyright laws to exert violence). 20:13:59 antifuchs: is the schema postmodern-generated or available as a file? Either way, we can't find it. 20:14:26 oh oops, might be that it's only in my database server (: 20:14:30 I'll export, hold on a second. 20:14:49 francogrex [~user@109.130.100.83] has joined #lisp 20:15:19 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:16:33 I hate it when the scheme is only in the database. 20:16:41 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-191-160.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:16:54 lichtblau: http://sbcl.boinkor.net/tmp/boinkmarks-pgdump.2011-05-03.psql has it, and enough data to get you started 20:16:58 (in fact, it has all the data) (: 20:17:15 -!- salva [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: salva] 20:17:23 pjb: don't worry, it's also in backups. 20:17:58 Buganini [~buganini@2001:288:c237:0:dead:beef:cafe:babe] has joined #lisp 20:21:34 -!- lrce [~user@88-117-76-246.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:22:25 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:32 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-4356673a.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:23:58 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:24:27 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.100.83] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:24:56 tvaalen [~r@unaffiliated/tvaal] has joined #lisp 20:25:22 Bahman [~bahman@2.146.17.231] has joined #lisp 20:25:59 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-191-160.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:29:05 -!- leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:29:33 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:30:15 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:32:17 -!- xan_ [~xan@99.13.242.166] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:39:06 antifuchs: nice, pretty graphs! 20:39:07 thanks 20:39:12 yay ((: 20:39:22 wow, so you got it to work? (: 20:39:41 actual replication of results! 20:39:48 nothing deters Super-Lichtblau ! 20:40:00 super-lichtblau's colleague 20:40:08 yay! 20:40:20 super-(lichtblau's colleague) 20:40:34 superlichtblau's supercolleague! 20:41:49 echo super-lichtblau{,\'s-colleague} 20:43:08 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 20:43:09 -!- ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:43:57 *lichtblau* 's not-so-super occupation is watching gdb spend 99% cpu time doing... I don't know what 20:45:20 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:45:30 lichtblau: attach a gdb to that process :) 20:45:36 recursively 20:45:57 gdb's all the way down 20:46:56 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-14.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:56 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-14.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:46:56 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 20:48:53 Bike [~arm_of_th@67-42-237-45.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:56 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-133-4.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:50:45 Bike1 [~arm_of_th@71-38-158-155.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:55 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host62-182-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:52:35 -!- Bike [~arm_of_th@67-42-237-45.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:52:40 -!- Bike1 is now known as Bike 20:54:39 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:54:51 nyef: I'm reading through your .org files in org mode and they are way more readable 20:54:54 (surprise!) 20:54:59 heh 20:55:10 nyef: also, very amused at your (integer 0 0) discovery 20:55:14 I can't wait to try that out (; 20:56:10 -!- ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has left #lisp 20:57:16 antifuchs: Yeah, I'm half-tempted to implement that myself. 20:57:48 I'm definitely happy that the only really tricky bits turned out to involve ELLIPSEs, though. 20:58:39 Especially given the language that allows an implementation to disallow any composition that returns a non-simple region that cannot be represented as a set of axis-aligned rectangles. 20:59:17 so, all that complexity is for naught anyway? 21:00:00 I think it might be required when you move up to designs, not sure about that though. 21:01:02 I'm a little disappointed still that I can't have a region which is everywhere that isn't this ellipse (or any other bounded region). 21:03:27 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-191-160.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:03:55 Anyway, my current thinking is that there are very few pieces that I need to figure out before I can put together a minimal implementation of the basics (other than the all-coordinates-zero version, which is rather trivial). 21:04:31 I could probably bang out some of the initial stuff in a few hours, anyway. 21:07:45 udzinari`_ [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 21:08:27 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 21:09:35 -!- jmbr__ is now known as jmbr 21:11:21 -!- udzinari [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:11:21 -!- udzinari`_ is now known as udzinari 21:11:42 -!- rmar|mtng is now known as rmarianski 21:13:04 -!- Hun` [~hun@95-90-10-28-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:13:15 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:15:14 rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 21:16:54 Geef [~Geef@249.Red-83-33-83.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:31 brodo_ [~brodo@p5B022C57.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:19 slyrus__ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:31 pnq [~nick@hassium.ssu.portsmouth.oh.us] has joined #lisp 21:19:41 -!- brodo [~brodo@p5B025762.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:19:41 -!- brodo_ is now known as brodo 21:20:36 francogrex [~user@109.130.100.83] has joined #lisp 21:24:00 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-191-160.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:24:29 -!- sonnym [~sonny@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:30:53 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:39:06 sedeki [~sedeki@c80-216-169-53.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:39:19 best book on common lisp? 21:40:38 Practical Common Lisp 21:40:41 CLtL1: First, and still the best! A little out of date these days, but what a book! 21:42:42 nyef: Haha. First edition over second? Any reason in particular? 21:44:03 thanks 21:44:05 -!- sedeki [~sedeki@c80-216-169-53.bredband.comhem.se] has left #lisp 21:44:09 Yeah, it's the original standard. 21:44:33 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:44:34 Good pint. 21:44:35 *point 21:44:47 A good pint is what I'm looking forward to with dinner. 21:45:19 Hrm. 12oz bottle. Okay, it's a short pint, not a good pint. 21:47:16 4 bottles should do the trick. 21:47:19 *redline6561* prefers good bourbon. :) 21:47:30 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@host187.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:47:58 -!- jdz [~jdz@host21-105-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:47:59 *Odin-* prefers another product of distillation. 21:50:04 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-191-160.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:50:17 -!- basho__ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-238-172.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:50:26 I'm curious which book sedeki went off to read. 21:50:56 -!- cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:53:42 Heh. I create a new file in emacs "foo.svg" and get a message: "Cannot display image: (Cannot determine image type)" 21:53:56 -!- milanj [~milanj_@212.200.194.87] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:57:47 gigamonkey: That sounds like a pretty fundamental thing to get right. 21:58:12 nyef: well, mime type is image/something-or-other (: 21:58:23 well, you have to have correct contents too 21:58:38 ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:01:08 *nyef* was more suggesting M-x fundamental-mode. 22:01:14 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.139.219.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:02:23 naiv [~naiv@ARennes-553-1-111-48.w81-53.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:03:20 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 22:04:25 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 22:05:10 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:06:28 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:10:25 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:10:44 Are symbols a affiliated class of vectors ? I'm trying to understand how I can write (substring 'symbolfoo 1) 22:11:07 I don't know this substring. 22:11:26 naiv: quick check: are you asking about Common Lisp? 22:11:26 naiv: symbols aren't strings. they have a symbol-name though. 22:11:29 naiv: this channel is about common lip 22:11:47 I'm in clisp yes 22:12:05 also, symbols are /string designators/, so (string 'some-symbol) returns the name of that symbol. 22:13:07 -!- ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:13:10 naiv: there is no SUBSTRING function in common lisp, consult clisp documentation for any details on it 22:14:11 there is a SUBSEQ function however, which acts on strings. 22:14:34 and not only on strings 22:16:08 ok, it makes sens 22:16:58 -!- Soulman [~knute@250.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 22:19:27 -!- Bahman [~bahman@2.146.17.231] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:20:13 tcr [~tcr@host187.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 22:20:50 Bahman [~bahman@2.146.17.231] has joined #lisp 22:21:09 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 22:21:43 ocharles [u411@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lnysfgganrmtdkij] has joined #lisp 22:21:47 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.100.83] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:22:05 hey, I'm new to lisp libraries, so hopefully someone can advise me with some libraries on this project... 22:22:18 I want to take an image file, and do some basic operations on each pixel 22:22:33 so I guess I need something with image loading + pixel access, and something that can do vector mathematics? 22:22:46 -!- tcr [~tcr@host187.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:22:50 I've been playing with ch-image and opticl for image loading stuff so far 22:23:29 Mmm. I'd look at those, or vecto and anything starting with zpb. 22:23:45 I'd try opticl 22:24:01 Go with what Xach says over what I say. 22:24:08 (At least in this instance.) 22:24:21 *Xach* has not yet tried opticl but it looks promising for that purpose 22:24:37 It's certainly doing the job of loading images and getting pixels, but I dunno what to do about the math side 22:24:40 *ocharles* shall poke it mor 22:25:22 i have to admit I am little saddened by the state of lisp documentation and library organisation that I've seen so far :( am I perhaps looking in the wrong place? 22:25:39 ocharles: at least for library organization, quicklisp is the state of the art 22:25:44 no central documentation pool yet 22:25:45 finding a library to use with quicklisp was pretty much a "well that sounds like it *might* be to do with images" 22:25:56 antifuchs: there doesn't seem to be any categorisation though, is that correct? 22:26:12 yeah, a list of recommended/known-good things for certain tasks would be great, too 22:26:24 or just descriptions that you can search through (: 22:26:27 I only found opticl by reading about ch-image, and then seeing the author working on something newer 22:26:29 yea 22:26:36 -!- Geef [~Geef@249.Red-83-33-83.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:27:35 ah, I see slime-apropos-package is quite handy at least for finding out what I can do with something :) 22:29:41 -!- Harag [~Harag@dsl-243-0-188.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:30:13 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-190-145.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:35 ocharles: now you have a project to tackle! 22:31:04 stassats: it's a project that probably requires me know a little more about the lisp ecosystem first :) 22:31:21 and to learn about the lisp ecosystem, you can use this project (-: 22:31:25 acieroid: that's what you will learn along the way 22:31:30 bah 22:31:43 this is exactly the kind of bootstrap loop that shapes excellence (-: 22:31:46 sure, just have to find out exactly what i want, and where to start 22:32:04 but for *now* I know I want to finish my Haar wavelet decomposition algorithm before I go to bed :> 22:32:17 ocharles: Have fun, then. 22:32:23 when i was starting with lisp, there was no quicklisp! you kids have it easy 22:32:30 hehe, there wasn't when I started! 22:32:37 so I stopped :) quicklisp does make it a shitload more fun 22:32:48 (I dabbled with asdf before) 22:32:59 If had known there was going to be quicklisp I would have waited 22:33:09 ahahaha 22:33:12 ocharles: ITYM asdf-install 22:33:18 quicklisp: the arc that /fulfills/ promises (-: 22:33:29 stassats: right 22:34:03 I'm a little fuzzy on the actual timeline, but I'm thinking that ASDF itself was new either shortly before or shortly after I started really getting in to lisp hacking. 22:34:28 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-220-180.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 22:34:32 compmstr [~compmstr@adsl-074-185-008-197.sip.clt.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 22:35:03 before ASDF did everyone roll their own 22:35:25 there was mk-defsystem 22:35:26 mk-defsystem, to some extent 22:35:45 some implementations had their own solutions 22:35:50 still do, in fact 22:37:01 Still, it's also quite simple to just have a file with a bunch of compile-file forms in it, and another with a set of load forms. 22:37:33 Especially if you don't want to use anyone else's code or have anyone else use yours. 22:37:36 ("Lisp Style & Design" actually recommends effectively this.) 22:37:55 nah, just put everything into one file 22:38:04 dlila [~dlila@CPE0014d1c9243c-CM001bd71cede2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:38:16 Should be fairly simple to have an ASDF system that interfaces with such a pair of files. 22:38:25 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:41:52 don't know if anyone saw this fun fact, but SWRL (Semantic Web Rule Language) actually links to cltl http://www.w3.org/Submission/SWRL/ 22:41:56 search for Common Lisp :) 22:43:21 so, what does that mean, Lisp is good now? 22:44:01 lisp has ruled the w3c's semantic track for a long time (: 22:44:03 Ok, so PIXEL* returns a list of (r g b), how would I scale each of these values? do I have to map over it? 22:44:03 stassats: just a fun fact. One of the more commercial efforts for the semantic web linked to common lisp :) 22:44:12 doesn't make semantic stuff any more useful (IMHO) 22:44:18 (although graph databases are very nice) 22:44:21 antifuchs: haven't seen much about it tbh 22:44:32 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:44:39 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 22:44:45 madnificent: check out clif, allegrograph, dsssl and others (: 22:44:55 the papers regarding OWL in CLOS don't run in common lisp (typecase), and allegrograph isn't open 22:44:59 -!- mydik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 263 seconds] 22:45:07 it's been in the background, but it has stuck around as glue (: 22:45:16 ah, you mean open-source lisp? (: 22:45:34 what did clif do with lisp? 22:45:37 I recommend to be glad that it's not that hype-y in the oss world (: 22:45:51 wait, which clif? 22:46:20 antifuchs: tbh, aside from Franz, I haven't seen that much semantic web being done in lisp 22:46:37 antifuchs: some projects that were never really finished or operational (a lot of them actually) 22:46:54 well, there. perfect description of the semantic web (: 22:47:05 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:47:10 *antifuchs* is feeling snarky today 22:47:13 antifuchs: not even finished by semantic web standards! And that says a lot :P 22:47:17 (-: 22:47:54 regardless, I'm stuck with some semantic web issues for my thesis, I was reading through the SWRL spec once again when I noticed it :) 22:47:57 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:57 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:48:05 (to clarify again, I'm not hating on graph databases, but on the semantic web hype attached to them. if I hear web 3.0 one more time, I'm going to install a workgroup) 22:48:23 antifuchs: a CL workgroup? 22:48:30 a windows 3.11 one. 22:48:37 hmmm, /me doubts 22:48:58 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-145-192.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:49:19 antifuchs: does it have web 3.11? 22:49:47 stassats: trying out the boundaries antifuchs's matching algorithms? 22:49:50 that /was/ a euphemism (-: 22:50:14 Hey, WfW3.11 was great! 22:50:39 nyef: I'm puzzled 22:50:46 it's as old as CL! 22:51:11 Actually, it might be amusing to port SBCL to that funky 32-on-16 windows thing they had pre-9x. 22:51:18 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:51:35 nyef: oh wait, that was literally there?! That's a /real/ abbreviation? 22:52:10 ocharles: use opticl! 22:52:43 madnificent: Windows for Workgroups? Yes. It's also the only windows that was version 3.11, AFAIK. 22:52:47 slyrus__: stop promoting your own software! (good one) 22:52:55 (Up from the 3.1 that was the pre-workgroup windows.) 22:53:05 fun trivia 22:53:54 ocharles: use opticl in preference to ch-image, if you have to use one of those two abysmal libraries 22:54:00 is that better madnificent? 22:54:11 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:54:19 slyrus__: LoL 22:54:52 ocharles: use pixel in preference to pixel* if you can 22:55:02 you can use opticl:map-array to map over the values in an image 22:55:55 rvirding [~chatzilla@h134n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 22:56:27 -!- pnq [~nick@hassium.ssu.portsmouth.oh.us] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:58:02 slyrus__: oh, hi 22:58:10 pixel* was the only one documented 22:59:35 hmm... I see. Ok, I'll put that on the list to fix. 22:59:42 pixel seems to return a single value, pixel* gives me a list 22:59:48 pixel returns multiple values instead of a list. much nicer. 22:59:54 oh 22:59:59 hm, not much nicer for what I'm doing here :) 23:00:09 more effi-shunt! 23:00:21 I need to sum 2 pixels, then divide that my sqrt(2) 23:00:25 by* 23:00:27 pnq [~nick@hassium.ssu.portsmouth.oh.us] has joined #lisp 23:00:56 (multiple-value-bind (r g b) (pixel img y x) ...) 23:00:58 I dunno how to express that in cl. at the moment I was using pixel* and made V+ and V/ functions (V+ sums 2 lists, V/ scales a list) 23:01:18 slyrus__: but I'm summing 2 pixels, so it's 2 multiple value binds, and it starts to feel extremely messy 23:01:34 especially more so that I'm operating on each channel in the same way 23:01:45 that's why I was hoping there was a graphics library that working with vector math nicely 23:01:53 (multiple-value-bind (r1 g1 b1) (pixel img y1 x1) (multiple-value-bind (r2 b2 g2) (pixel img y2 x2) ...)) 23:02:07 Geef [~Geef@249.Red-83-33-83.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:25 yes, that to me is horrible code 23:02:35 compared to (v+ (pixel img y1 x1) (pixel img y2 x2)) 23:03:08 are you summing just 2 pixels or two pixels across the entire image? 23:03:30 2 pixels across the entire image, sort of 23:03:40 (define-compiler-macro v+ (pixel1 pixel2) `(multiple-value-bind ..., modulo actually checking the args, of course. 23:03:50 (multiple-value-call #'pixel+ (pixel* img y1 x1) (pixel* img y2 x2)) ; with a (defun pixel+ (r1 g1 b1 r2 g2 b2) 23:03:53 http://www.cs.ucf.edu/~mali/haar/ see C code at the bottom 23:03:57 I'm trying to write that in lisp 23:04:13 antifuchs: cool, I didn't know about multiple-value-call 23:04:22 it's pretty neat 23:04:29 probably one of the most DWIM functions in CL ((: 23:04:36 I think you meant pixel, not, pixel* though 23:05:04 should pixel+ return a list, or multiple values? 23:05:22 ah, for the input to the function, it would be pixel* 23:05:54 return value would then be multiple values for composability 23:06:28 ocharles: a haar transform would be a nice addition to opticl 23:06:43 slyrus__: yea, if I can figure out how to write it :) 23:07:27 is this for homework? 23:07:29 no 23:07:31 pet project 23:07:45 ah, in that case I'd be happy to help 23:07:52 *madnificent* reads up on multiple-value-call 23:07:52 I can paste what I have now then 23:07:59 but not until tomorrow 23:08:03 oh, ok 23:08:06 what timezone are you in? 23:08:16 pdt 23:08:30 ok, i'm gmt 23:09:02 i refuse to sleep until I have a hack that works. i'll bounce that past you tomorrow 23:09:38 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 23:11:08 Mococa [~Mococa@177.16.239.194] has joined #lisp 23:12:55 -!- naiv [~naiv@ARennes-553-1-111-48.w81-53.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:19:09 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:19:32 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 23:19:35 -!- pavelludiq [57f63ac1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.246.58.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:20:37 -!- pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has left #lisp 23:20:50 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@177.16.239.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:21:01 -!- udzinari [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: zzzzzzZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzz] 23:22:12 -!- dlila [~dlila@CPE0014d1c9243c-CM001bd71cede2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:23:30 -!- talyz [~user@ip35.tunnan.riksnet.nu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:23:31 dlila [~dlila@CPE0014d1c9243c-CM001bd71cede2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:25:13 -!- benny [~benny@i577A8091.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:25:24 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.8.152.53] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:26:07 MoALTz [~no@92.8.152.53] has joined #lisp 23:32:05 -!- alfa_y_omega_ [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:33:04 alfa_y_omega_ [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #lisp 23:34:57 -!- pnq [~nick@hassium.ssu.portsmouth.oh.us] has quit [Ping timeout: 263 seconds] 23:35:03 -!- LiamH [~none@132.250.138.103] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:36:13 Mococa [~Mococa@177.16.239.194] has joined #lisp 23:41:48 benny [~benny@i577A8349.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 23:44:57 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@177.16.239.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:45:07 -!- peterhil1 [~peterhil@a91-152-142-2.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:45:09 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-152-135-21.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:46:05 crap, asdf loops again 23:46:21 That happened to me not long ago and I couldn't figure out why 23:46:39 it usually loops because .asd file is in the future 23:46:42 stassats: touch all your .asd files 23:46:56 Xach: what stassats said 23:47:37 sometimes ext3/4 screw up mtimes 23:47:49 I thought that was fixed. 23:48:12 it's ext4 23:48:25 I wouldn't be surprised if some very slippery race condition remained 23:48:28 Xach: i thought too 23:49:20 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:49:22 I've seen some very weird asdf behavior when loading things from remote-mounted file systems in windows that looked like it could be related to this behavior 23:49:54 (in mid-operation asdf would think the file had changed and try to recompile, tripping over redefinition errors) (: 23:50:10 wow 23:50:14 touching doesn't help 23:50:16 kinda cool 23:50:30 and it works on older asdf on sbcl, but not on newer asdf on ccl 23:50:31 fe[nl]ix: it's not if it appears to be tied to the time of day (-: 23:50:32 oh well 23:50:46 fe[nl]ix: this bug manifested only during certain time periods in my working day ((: 23:50:46 The behavior I saw looked like the defsystem form was invoking find-system recursively under some circumstance I couldn't isolate. 23:51:06 :-O 23:51:20 basically, at 4pm it would start to fail, telling me to go home (-; 23:51:31 and i think that happened after i moved over my system files to an SSD 23:51:32 lol 23:51:35 dnolen [~davidnole@pool-68-161-86-229.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:52:33 *stassats* updates asdf 23:52:45 stassats: I can reproduce that 23:52:57 just updated asdf 23:53:13 darn, then i'll downgrade it 23:53:42 ok, works fine with the one included with ccl 23:53:51 which is good enough for me 23:54:44 stassats: 2.014 works 23:55:04 good that Fare requested testing! ((: 23:55:08 2.014.13 doesn't 23:55:15 quick, report the bug, before he goes away forever! 23:55:19 KDr21 [~KDr2@123.122.105.93] has joined #lisp 23:55:39 well, just reporting isn't fun 23:56:05 sure, but saying "there's something horribly broken, stand by for diagnosis" helps coordinate stuff (: 23:56:46 I thought it was just me! 23:56:51 it's great if you fix the bug! just let the release guy know that there's something bad going on in the code he's releasing (: 23:56:52 ASDF victims, unite! 23:56:57 Xach: you're not alone 23:57:03 defclasss action lawsuit 23:57:03 .:D 23:57:06 ahahha 23:57:07 haha 23:57:39 *stassats* goes bisect 23:58:23 rpg [~rpg@66.161.23.209.lan.static.cptelecom.net] has joined #lisp 23:59:37 -!- rpg [~rpg@66.161.23.209.lan.static.cptelecom.net] has quit [Client Quit]