00:00:24 -!- CallToPower [~CallToPow@s15229144.onlinehome-server.info] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:00:38 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@66-87-11-229.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:01:03 CallToPower [~CallToPow@s15229144.onlinehome-server.info] has joined #lisp 00:02:51 -!- drdo` is now known as drdo 00:03:04 -!- CallToPower [~CallToPow@s15229144.onlinehome-server.info] has quit [Client Quit] 00:03:06 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-133-129-80.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 00:03:45 CallToPower [~CallToPow@s15229144.onlinehome-server.info] has joined #lisp 00:05:29 -!- rotty [~rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:06:15 dnolen [~davidnole@pool-68-161-59-220.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:06:47 -!- ecraven [~user@140.78.42.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:07:03 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:07:04 rotty [~rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #lisp 00:08:02 cpc26 [~cpc26@66-87-11-229.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:59 *Xach* discovers, to his dismay, asdf-ecl.lisp 00:11:00 ? 00:11:18 -!- Jabberwockey [~quassel@83.151.30.10] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 00:11:21 Jabberwock [~quassel@83.151.30.10] has joined #lisp 00:11:35 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@67-194-87-113.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 00:11:47 -!- Jabberwock is now known as Guest32080 00:11:52 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 00:11:53 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-145-204.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:12:30 -!- xian [xian@we-are-the-b.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:12:49 -!- Deathaholic [~Mococa@187.114.164.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:13:08 xian [xian@we-are-the-b.org] has joined #lisp 00:14:48 Deathaholic [~Mococa@187.114.164.210] has joined #lisp 00:16:20 -!- Deathaholic is now known as Mococa 00:19:15 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 00:20:16 some kind of wackiness I don't understand 00:20:18 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@h-74-2-1-101.lsanca54.static.covad.net] has joined #lisp 00:20:33 Xach: what kind? 00:22:31 quicklisp is broken on the latest ecl, i don't know why, asdf-ecl.lisp involvement suspected in some vague way that i don't want to investigate right now. 00:22:50 ah 00:24:52 *Xach* opts for single malt brain lubrication instead 00:25:09 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:26:41 Xach: do I really need a separate sysdef-system-registry-search? 00:26:55 sbcl puts things in front, cmucl at the back 00:26:58 and then abcl... 00:27:02 ... I'm not a drinker, but I just had an urge to go "wai! Another single-malt drinker instead of blended!"... my father corrupted me 00:28:14 -!- pkhuong [~pkhuong@gravelga.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:28:41 cheezus [~Adium@76-10-136-155.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 00:30:29 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:34:00 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.12.183] has joined #lisp 00:34:48 BrokenCog [~bc@pool-108-18-164-28.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:36:15 The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:41:39 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 00:41:52 GutenLinux [~chatzilla@122.242.190.204] has joined #lisp 00:42:23 Xach: which asdf version? got a log? 00:42:59 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-133-129-80.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:43:50 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 00:43:50 Fare: http://paste.lisp.org/display/121483 00:44:33 -!- GutenLinux [~chatzilla@122.242.190.204] has quit [Client Quit] 00:45:53 deech [~user@71-81-145-18.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:46:43 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:46:47 Hi all, I was wondering if it there are libraries of immutable data structures in CL a la Clojure. 00:47:36 deech: I think Folio aims to provide something like those 00:47:43 deech: and there's another one too but the name escapes me 00:49:02 Xach: Thanks! I'll check out Folio. I like CL a lot better than Clojure, so I'm wondering if I can make up the gap in concurrency support. 00:49:05 Xach: I have no clue, but I will investigate 00:50:36 The link to Folio seems broken (http://bywicket.com/users/mikel/weblog/19e1b/) 00:50:42 There's also Scott Burson's FSet. 00:50:45 deech: Fset may also be applicable. 00:50:47 heh. 00:50:55 rme: thanks. fset was the one i could not remember. 00:51:06 deech: fset and folio are both in quicklisp. 00:51:08 deech: Folio is in quicklisp. 00:52:15 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:52:30 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 00:54:34 FSet looks awesome! Thanks. 00:54:35 psilord1 [~psilord@ppp-70-226-166-7.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 00:55:32 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:55:44 I prefer fare-util's pure library 00:55:46 but it's just me 00:56:12 i would prefer stassats-util too 00:56:39 but fare-utils ACTUALLY implements immutable data structures 00:57:04 using interface-passing style, for parametricity. 00:59:49 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:00:39 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@66-87-11-229.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 01:00:48 fset's interface seems a little clumsy to me, but I'm still a fan 01:01:54 davekong [~davekong@unaffiliated/davekong] has joined #lisp 01:02:51 -!- cheezus [~Adium@76-10-136-155.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:03:00 I am trying to get rainbow parenthesis in vim and put "let g:list_rainbow = 1" but the parenthesis are still all the same color, can anyone help me? 01:03:22 lisp not list 01:03:44 nm 01:03:50 why do I do that... 01:04:43 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 01:05:00 WTF? asdf.lisp is compiled properly by ecl, but not asdf-ecl (creating a non-dynamic object???) 01:05:24 -!- davekong [~davekong@unaffiliated/davekong] has quit [Client Quit] 01:05:37 oh, shite - has stuff been moved to the latter that has essential method overrides? 01:07:32 pkhuong [~pkhuong@gravelga.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #lisp 01:07:33 cheezus [~Adium@76.10.136.155] has joined #lisp 01:13:06 yup 01:13:10 *Fare* moves it back 01:16:37 -!- Evious [~n_a@s64-180-62-209.bc.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:24:13 -!- Tordek [~tordek@2001:470:dc50:b0::21] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:24:29 Tordek [~tordek@2001:470:dc50:b0::21] has joined #lisp 01:25:29 -!- gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-17-205-117.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:28:04 Fare: What does it mean? 01:30:21 Xach: I have no clue. 01:30:32 I am preparing a 2.014.7 for you to test... 01:31:13 currently running my test suite... you'll be pleased to learn that my test for "no noise under sbcl" was useful at catching a forward reference 01:31:44 Xach: wait. 01:31:48 OK, I have a clue. 01:32:10 So, on ECL, you load asdf.lisp, but not asdf-ecl ? or do you load both? 01:32:48 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:32:59 (tests passed under ccl; the other implementations should be a breeze... hopefully) 01:36:29 -!- emporas [~emporas@athedsl-170924.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:37:49 Fare: I do not load asdf-ecl. I did not know about it until tonight. 01:38:00 Fare: i thought asdf.lisp was everything to everyone. 01:39:44 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 01:50:25 -!- The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:52:04 -!- ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:52:27 ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has joined #lisp 01:53:24 -!- macrocat [~marmalade@142.177.208.103] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:57:02 Is there any relationship between telen-clx (at https://github.com/franzinc/telent-clx) and portable clx? 01:57:09 Er telent-clx 01:57:30 they all are CLX? 01:57:48 Well, besides the obvious. :-) 01:57:56 BrokenCo1 [~bc@pool-108-18-164-200.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:11 -!- BrokenCog [~bc@pool-108-18-164-28.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:04:43 I think one came before the other or something 02:04:58 was portable-clx the franz-created one? or did they just take telent-clx? I forget 02:05:10 Xach: in ecl, you need load asdf-ecl, too. At least, for full functionality. 02:05:22 -!- Tordek [~tordek@2001:470:dc50:b0::21] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:05:30 Xach: but I'm restoring basic functionality with just asdf.lisp, which was recently broken. 02:05:44 Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-ztvjmdbhqyxbizhp] has joined #lisp 02:05:47 Full meaning the ability to load add-ons that come with ecl? 02:05:54 at cliki it says «"telent CLX" (working title, also known as portable-clx) » 02:06:03 Xach: yes, it has additional operations 02:06:21 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:06:50 Is it OK if load-system (but not operate) does magic upgrade of asdf before anything else? 02:07:02 I'd say it is -- but what do you think? 02:07:12 It should warn if there was a downgrade, of course 02:08:08 i wouldn't be very happy 02:08:35 stassats`, what could go wrong? 02:08:57 just about anything 02:09:29 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:09:49 -!- BrokenCo1 [~bc@pool-108-18-164-200.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:10:30 anyway, what would warrant such behaviour? is ASDF so buggy it can't live without constant updates? 02:12:41 no, but WHEN it updates, it better do it *before* it tries to do anything else. 02:13:18 and that wouldn't be "constant". 02:13:29 In practice, once per session 02:14:46 i no longer understand you, define "upgrade" and "session"? 02:14:48 I think that would be totally bogus, Fare. Loading up a program to hack in a REPL should not entail phoning home to ask for upgrades (or to do anything else with the mothership). 02:14:53 gko [~gko@223-138-225-172.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:14:54 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:15:48 cipher [~cipher@c-76-24-16-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:16:38 if by upgrade you mean "downloading a new asdf.lisp and loading it", then i stand by my words 02:17:48 no. 02:18:04 I just mean "looking if you configured any more recent asdf in your source-registry" 02:18:09 and if so, use it. 02:18:21 s/more recent// 02:18:25 i don't understand how that can happen 02:18:43 well, say your implementation comes with asdf 2.010 02:18:53 and you have asdf 2.014 in your source-registry 02:19:10 and you try to compile something that depends on a recent asdf, say, poiu or xcvb. 02:19:18 or hu.dwim.asdf 02:19:38 if somebody made a conscious effort of putting it there, he can load it himself too 02:19:53 well, you damn well better make sure asdf loads 2.014 before it gets pulled in by any one else, and the extensions get messed up 02:19:59 stassats`: most recent example i've seen is debian's asdf adding itself to the source registry 02:20:00 or can he? 02:20:29 Xach: solution: put your on front. 02:21:42 Fare: yes, he can, i load asdf from an init file before anything else is set up 02:22:10 -!- jweiss [~user@cpe-069-134-063-238.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:22:30 and with this magic stuff, the behaviour of asdf becomes more and more non-deterministic 02:23:06 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 02:23:07 ...I have a better idea: When you ask ASDF to do anything, it deletes itself from the system and puts up a big banner saying `Please re-engineer me!'. 02:23:10 I bet it's still deterministic :-) 02:24:13 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:24:14 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 02:25:26 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has left #lisp 02:26:45 Yuuhi` [benni@p5483D5CF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:28:25 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483DA1F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:29:32 madsenz [~madsenz@n11z181l194.static.ctm.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:05 -!- cipher [~cipher@c-76-24-16-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 02:32:05 cipher [~cipher@unaffiliated/cipher] has joined #lisp 02:34:11 BrokenCog [~bc@108.18.165.241] has joined #lisp 02:38:14 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:39:22 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 02:39:34 <|3b|> is there any (exported) way to tell if a hunchentoot acceptor is active or not? 02:40:38 rvirding [~chatzilla@201.122.119.249] has joined #lisp 02:42:46 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 02:43:24 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 02:43:53 -!- _2x2l [~andrew@209.20.83.196] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:45:20 stassats`, I'd like to make it both more deterministic and make the user more responsible for what happens. 02:45:38 To me, if the user has a asdf in his registry, that clearly mean that's the version of asdf he wants to use. 02:46:05 of course, if debian installs its asdf, and you want yours... you must override debian's. 02:46:37 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@201.122.119.249] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.16/20110319135224]] 02:46:38 to me, it's not, i have asdf.lisp in my source registry, but i only use it on implementations on which there is no asdf built-in 02:46:39 myu2 [~myu2@v051158.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 02:46:52 and i want to use built-in asdf on those implementations which do have it 02:47:34 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 02:47:39 how does asdf distinguish your situation from the situation where someone installs the new asdf because he wants to use it? 02:48:16 it shouldn't try, the user should load it explicitly 02:48:59 what if hu.dwin.asdf poiu or xcvb or some other thing depends on asdf? 02:49:19 by the time they try to use it, it's too late to upgrade. 02:50:45 let them depend on users who have a head on their shoulders 02:50:48 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:52:09 <|3b|> wouldn't it try to load it anyway in that case, since it presumably wasn't originally loaded with asdf? 02:52:34 |3b| "it"? 02:52:45 |3b| see my latest message on the asdf-devel list 02:53:10 <|3b|> wouldn't the running asdf try to load asdf from whatever asdf.asd file it can find, since the running asdf presumably wasn't loaded with asdf 02:54:25 yes 02:54:50 and the new asdf.asd would unintern symbols from asdf to shadow them with its own. 02:55:11 then the old asdf would continue loading those things that depend on asdf 02:55:16 *|3b|* thinks that if it will try to load it anyway, adding magic for that specific case to make it actually work is reasonable 02:55:36 and fail when said things include asdf extensions, that extend the new asdf, but not the old one 02:55:46 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.214.177] has quit [Quit: Offline] 02:55:48 *Fare* is precisely adding this magic 02:56:42 I could try to make it more magic, but that would require either have a special magic "upgrade and redo it all" button when the traverse plan tells us we're going to reload asdf. 02:57:20 <|3b|> having the magic happen when new asdf wouldn't have been loaded seems less reasonable 02:57:37 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.114.164.210] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 02:57:51 *stassats`* remarks that the only difference after upgrading to ASDF2 he noticed was additional work needed to handle incompatible changes 02:58:08 or say looking at whether the system explicity depends on asdf, and requiring users to raise that flag if any of the systems they depend on depend on it... which sucks if one of your libraries suddenly starts raising that flag 02:58:19 stassats`, :-( 02:58:30 <|3b|> would an 'upgrade and retry' restart be that bad? 02:58:49 i'm actually not a fan of compatibility, but i'd like to get something cool in return 02:58:55 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:59:06 |3b| actually, yes, especially if some asdf extensions are already loaded. 02:59:16 perhaps i'm not using much extra features to notice the differences 02:59:33 i.e. you load cffi, you realize you need to reload asdf, now you need to also invalidate cffi-grovel. oops. 02:59:44 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-154-17.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:59:49 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@pool-68-161-59-220.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 02:59:53 <|3b|> hmm 03:00:00 I'm starting to wonder if implementations should even bundle ASDF. 03:00:17 rme: I think they should. 03:01:07 stassats`, but maybe you're right after all, since a contrario, I wouldn't want an update to asdf on disk to cause my next reload of fare-utils to invalidate my cffi-grovel. 03:01:46 i'm against DWIM where there might be false-positives 03:01:54 stassats`, ok 03:02:01 stassats`, thanks, you convinced me. 03:03:01 -!- gko [~gko@223-138-225-172.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:03:21 And so, I'm defining a function asdf::upgrade-asdf, but not running it implicitly. 03:05:15 rme: what that all means is that in any portable build script, you should explicitly upgrade asdf before you use asdf, and your systems that depend on a recent asdf version better do some checking. 03:06:15 *Fare* wonders whether, rather than auto-upgrading, detecting failure and failing early isn't the thing to do. 03:06:56 (error "your asdf version is too old for this system. bug your vendor or upgrade") 03:06:59 <|3b|> seems like a reasonable alternative, given that from the description it might not even be possible to upgrade safely at that point 03:07:18 But keep in mind that I'm kind of a luddite in these matters. 03:09:06 *|3b|* wonders if loading a fasl should cause all the symbols in the forms compiled into that fasl to exist, even if they aren't actually used by teh compiled code 03:09:27 let's just wait a couple of years until the development of ASDF will become stagnant again, and there won't be a problem of updating it 03:09:28 |3b|, no 03:10:11 _pw_ [~user@125.34.44.97] has joined #lisp 03:10:22 stassats`, the git log shows that there always have been commits to asdf, though not as much as since I started obsessing about it 03:10:59 -!- dlila [~dlila@99.230.47.229] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:11:10 *Fare* wonders whether to add magic asdf detection to operate. Probably not. 03:11:20 <|3b|> Fare: is it nonconformant to do so? 03:11:38 *|3b|* seems to remember clisp creating the symbols, and sbcl not last time i ran into the issue 03:11:41 no. It just makes the code more complex in an attempt to do magic. 03:12:40 I suppose that people who have (:depends-on :asdf) are the only ones who should care -- and we probably shouldn't be doing that, after all, only checking the version magically. 03:13:04 though maybe that's moving the complexity around. 03:18:17 -!- fgump [~gump@188.74.82.177] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:27:33 nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has joined #lisp 03:27:33 -!- nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has quit [Changing host] 03:27:33 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 03:29:34 -!- BrokenCog [~bc@108.18.165.241] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:30:18 azaq231 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 03:31:50 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:36:01 -!- peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:38:41 am0c [~am0c@112.149.169.31] has joined #lisp 03:39:07 blackdawn [~tau@189-127-63-48.i-next.psi.br] has joined #lisp 03:39:09 hi. 03:39:11 i have a question. 03:39:49 when i define a function like (defun my (a b) (+ 1 a b)) , and the lisp reads it. the symbol '1' will be evaluated to 1. 03:40:01 and it will go throu the + function. 03:40:09 suppose i just call that function again. 03:40:13 like (my) 03:40:21 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:40:22 will the '1' be evaluated to the integer 1 again. 03:40:23 ? 03:40:32 or it is evaluated only once when the program is being read. 03:41:08 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-gifebauywskjcndh] has joined #lisp 03:41:31 `1' is not a symbol, it is an integer 03:43:25 Adamant, 03:43:26 yes 03:43:33 enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-76-171-245-75.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:43:39 adeht, but initially when it is read by the parser it is a symbol. 03:43:46 which is evaluated to an integer. 03:43:54 isn't it? 03:44:29 what does it mean for an integer to be evaluated??? 03:44:36 Fare, 03:44:37 like 03:44:39 (eval 1) 03:44:51 1 is self-evaluating. Evaluates to itself 03:44:52 blackdawn: no, it is never a symbol 03:44:55 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:44:57 Fare, yes 03:45:00 that is what i meant. 03:45:26 Fare, when i call (my 2 1) 03:45:48 the (+ 1 a b) , is the 1 evaluated to itself 03:45:51 everytime i call my? 03:45:56 The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:57 or 03:46:04 it is evaluated to itself just once. 03:46:37 blackdawn: what do you think would be the difference? 03:47:08 if 1 is evaluated in the forest, does anyone notice? 03:47:24 adeht, if it evaluates to itself everytime my is called then it is consistent otherwise it has some workarounds in the parser. 03:47:33 and 03:47:36 if it is always evaluated 03:47:44 then there must exist some cost computational 03:47:51 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 03:47:57 cause it has always to verify whether '1' is a number or a string or a " data. 03:48:20 <|3b|> why do you assume the compiler was written incompetently? 03:48:29 |3b|, lol 03:48:31 i didn't 03:49:05 <|3b|> it is obviously a constant, so even a undergrad compiler class would probably inline it 03:49:30 blackdawn: first, the reader takes a stream of characters and returns the denoted Lisp objects, such as the integer representation of `1'.. then, the function object may be interpreted or compiled depending on the implementation 03:50:06 blackdawn: in neither case will the token `1' need to be re-parsed 03:50:41 blackdawn: (assuming a sane implementation) 03:50:52 <|3b|> some functions might be verifying types, but that is unrelated to evaluation 03:51:21 peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 03:51:26 adeht, hum 03:51:30 yeap 03:51:30 <|3b|> in your example, you didn't specify types for A and B, so it is probably using a generic + function, which will have to verify all arguments are numbers 03:53:10 alright. 03:54:07 <|3b|> if you had told the compiler for example A and B were also small integers, it could inline the addition using native opcodes, and the 1 might disappear completely (replaced by an increment opcode for example) 03:54:40 interesting. 03:54:43 |3b|, i see. 03:57:59 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-130-5.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:00:17 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-130-5.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:03:02 -!- Woshin [~Woshin@c-66-30-108-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:03:35 wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-24-193-121-20.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:04:01 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@39-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:04:26 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.77.100] has joined #lisp 04:08:17 -!- peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:09:21 peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 04:15:16 -!- myu2 [~myu2@v051158.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:16:13 -!- 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peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 06:21:17 sarah [~danieljam@94-193-7-241.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:22:17 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 06:22:24 hi can anyone point me to a lisp example that does something similar to c#'s 'yield return'? 06:25:26 *|3b|* can't tell what that does from the docs on msdn 06:27:41 -!- peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:28:21 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 06:28:27 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:7a2b:cbff:fed0:c11c] has joined #lisp 06:28:27 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:7a2b:cbff:fed0:c11c] has quit [Changing host] 06:28:27 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 06:29:23 peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 06:30:10 sarah: what does 'yield return' mean in C#? 06:30:22 it allows one to define an iterator which can be used with, e.g. foreach by writing a function which does a yield return for each item 06:30:24 <|3b|> is that returning the next element in a lazily evaluated sequence? if so CL doesn't have those built it, so you would have to find or implement a library for that 06:30:58 *|3b|* doesn't remember if sbcl's extensible sequences allow that sort of thing or not 06:31:30 -!- ramus [~ramus@99.44.154.124] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:31:46 sarah: you can implement iterators as mere closures. 06:32:26 pjb: so pass in a closure to the thing that generates my elements and call it each time I have one? 06:32:41 The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:32:44 sarah: You can do it this way, or the other. 06:32:53 what's the other way? 06:33:03 The closure may iterate into the data structure, and return the next element each time it's called. 06:33:07 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 06:33:14 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 06:33:25 ramus [~ramus@99.44.154.124] has joined #lisp 06:33:59 (defun make-list-iterator (list) (lambda () (let ((not-done (not (null list)))) (values (pop list) not-done)))) 06:34:31 (loop with i = (make-list-iterator (list 1 2 3 4)) for element = (funcall i) while element do (print element)) 06:34:50 pjb: That is exactly what I need. Thanks 06:35:01 Areil [~user@113.172.42.42] has joined #lisp 06:37:43 -!- sarah [~danieljam@94-193-7-241.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has left #lisp 06:39:12 sarah: if you want to be able to write the following (I don't know if it's like this in C#): (let ((iterator (lambda* () (loop for element in list do (yield-return element)))))), it's possible but more complicated, using a delimited continuation library. Probably not worth the complexity. 06:39:43 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 06:39:57 mcsontos_ [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-yjoxeukkpajlyacy] has joined #lisp 06:40:20 The delimited continuation library would turn the loop inside out to generate something similar to make-list-iterator anyways. 06:41:31 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-qpktmqfbrdddphin] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:44:55 kiuma [~kiuma@85.18.55.37] has joined #lisp 06:47:59 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 06:51:04 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:51:19 _pw_ [~user@125.34.44.97] has joined #lisp 06:51:24 good morning 06:52:10 -!- am0c [~am0c@222.235.92.118] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:52:17 am0c [~am0c@222.235.92.118] has joined #lisp 06:54:16 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 06:57:15 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 07:00:11 -!- orivej 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peer] 09:41:24 Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:42:02 Joreji_ [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 09:45:53 peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 09:48:41 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:49:45 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-130-5.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:52:31 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:54:03 hmmm there was a page somewhere collecting errata for the CLHS but I can't find it anymore 09:54:38 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.12.183] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:56:15 http://www.cliki.net/Proposed%20ANSI%20Revisions%20and%20Clarifications 09:58:57 dullard [~user@188-223-137-38.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:00:20 -!- rme [rme@clozure-ABAB5F25.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 10:01:01 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 10:02:22 -!- rme 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[~J@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 11:10:05 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.33.152.39] has joined #lisp 11:12:32 does anyone know how is skloem algorithm in lisp? 11:15:08 Skolem? ACL2 probably has one. 11:15:37 what does ACL2 mean? 11:16:05 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACL2 11:16:33 ('ive already searched in wiki me2 :D) 11:16:45 but my problem is that i've to do a project 11:16:51 and in that project 11:17:06 i've to implement this algoritm 11:18:02 so..i can't use a default version gived with the program.. 11:18:53 Well, in that case... Skolemization is implemented in Lisp pretty much the same way it is implemented in any other language. 11:19:43 -!- ineiros [~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:20:17 mpasternacki [~user@chello080108072034.10.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 11:21:07 not be sure how to implement it on lisp...and how does it work! =( wiki in this sense..doesn't help me =( 11:22:19 So you have to do a project which is implementing Skolemization in Lisp, but you don't know how Skolemization works and you don't know Lisp. Is this a correct description of the situation? 11:23:13 not really ... 11:23:32 the project is not only do that... 11:23:55 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Quit: Foo!] 11:23:56 the goal of project is to implement a function that convert a fbf to a cnf 11:24:03 Woshin [~Woshin@c-66-30-108-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:24:33 to do that i've to implement some function..and an algorithm 11:24:54 the project gives a prto of code of skolem 11:25:09 part* 11:26:33 Jake_ [~Jake@71-89-15-161.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 11:28:20 Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 11:28:26 -!- Joreji [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:28:31 this is the code that we must use 11:28:41 Areil` [~user@113.172.41.82] has joined #lisp 11:28:45 uh oh... 11:28:52 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-183-90.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 11:28:53 (defun skolem-variable () (gentemp "SV-")) (defun skolem-function* (&rest args) (cons (gentemp "SF-") args)) (defun skolem-function (args) (apply #'skolem-function* args)) 11:29:02 Liera` [~Liera@113.172.41.82] has joined #lisp 11:30:03 -!- Jake__ [~Jake@71-89-15-161.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:30:17 -!- Areil [~user@113.172.42.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:31:14 -!- Liera [~Liera@113.172.42.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:32:42 patagous: Those functions don't really do anything related to Skolemization. 11:34:12 this only to manage function and variable 11:34:28 i have to do by me the real skolem function 11:35:00 ehu` [~ehuels@109.35.158.70] has joined #lisp 11:36:31 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.32.29.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:37:17 patagous: I don't see any shortcuts here. You learn about Skolemization and what the algorithm is doing. Then you learn Lisp. Finally, you implement the algorithm in Lisp. 11:37:30 -!- Pirx [~Pirx@radius2.p.lodz.pl] has quit [] 11:40:57 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 11:41:32 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:43:46 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:45:58 -!- peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:46:21 -!- patagous [9584bd58@gateway/web/freenode/ip.149.132.189.88] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:46:36 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 11:47:21 -!- Woshin [~Woshin@c-66-30-108-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:52:14 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.181.183] has joined #lisp 11:52:26 unithrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 11:52:49 how can I check the size (in bytes) of an instance in SBCL? 11:54:26 that depends 11:54:34 on what? 11:54:34 how meaningful do you want the answer to be? 11:54:42 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:55:06 ballpark. My heap is exploding, and I need to check if "too many objects created" is a possible culprit or not 11:55:22 quick answer is to call (room) 11:55:31 since I'm creating 250K instances, that can be either "yes" or "no" 11:55:44 ballpark object size is 32 bytes per slot in each instance 11:55:48 Krystof: okay, after creating just one, or 1000 of them, or? 11:55:51 oh 11:55:51 sorry, 32 bits 11:55:55 peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 11:55:58 ahh, that's saner 11:56:14 unless you're on x86-64 in which case 64 bits 11:56:17 -!- [df] [~df@163.8.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:56:24 nope, x86 11:56:44 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:57:29 -!- ehu` [~ehuels@109.35.158.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:57:52 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.33.152.39] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:58:19 [df] [~df@163.8.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has joined #lisp 11:59:53 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 12:01:08 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.181.183] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:01:28 beach, how is your gui progressing? 12:03:44 -!- [df] [~df@163.8.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:05:30 -!- peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:05:52 -!- lanthan [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 12:08:53 peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 12:09:03 -!- Decamero78 [~Matthias@cs109108026076.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:10:03 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-178-6.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:10:47 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.158.70] has joined #lisp 12:12:27 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:12:29 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-130-5.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:13:34 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:14:50 Joreji [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:14:58 -!- Bootvis [bob@baltar.lan.endoria.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:15:00 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.158.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:15:57 [df] [~df@163.8.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has joined #lisp 12:19:01 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@203-217-78-248.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: .] 12:21:37 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 12:21:55 Bootvis [bob@baltar.lan.endoria.net] has joined #lisp 12:23:04 Decamero78 [~Matthias@cs109108026076.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:25:40 Krystof: okay, that's very ballpark. One run gave me 4MB / 1k objects, another is 2MB / 10k objects 12:26:43 were they the same kinds of objects? 12:26:52 yes 12:27:04 I just changed the iteration count by one zero 12:27:30 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:27:49 and how are you measuring? 12:28:11 rme [~rme@70.104.125.229] has joined #lisp 12:28:35 Krystof: running (gc :full t) before, (room), then collecting the objects, another GC and (room) again, then subtract the two numbers for dynamic space usage 12:28:41 -!- peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:29:10 so sadly, unless things have changed, room is consy 12:29:22 :\ 12:29:24 you might just be measuring room overhead in your 1k test 12:29:39 -!- Joreji [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:29:46 seriously, I promise you that 32 bytes per slot is about right 12:30:12 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 12:30:19 Krystof: okay, that's for class instances, not structures? 12:31:02 Krystof: also, do I need to add another 32 bits for the slot values themselves if they're doubles? 12:31:18 or does it store them directly in the instance? 12:31:50 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-85-57.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 12:32:00 oh wait, I was looking at the wrong definition. They're structures, and have 3 doubles each 12:32:42 structures are a bit easier 12:32:49 3 doubles is 3x64 bits 12:33:06 there's a bit of overhead, call it two words 12:33:34 32 bytes all in 12:33:36 Krystof: word as in 32 bits? 12:33:39 yes 12:33:53 ok, plus a cons cell for each, since I'm collecting them in a list 12:34:02 how much will that cost me? 12:34:17 is that just 64 bits per cell? 12:34:25 peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 12:34:30 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.228] has joined #lisp 12:34:39 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.158.70] has joined #lisp 12:34:40 yes 12:34:53 okay, so 40 bytes in total per object stored 12:35:45 so that should be just 10MB / 250K objects. It really shouldn't blow up the heap 12:36:05 *unithrick* suspects META-SEXP then and goes bug hunting 12:37:05 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@155.69.43.70] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:37:13 Krystof: thanks 12:37:16 good luck 12:37:21 heh, thanks 12:37:24 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d0037bf.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:37:41 I'm actually installing linux in another VM to avoid debugging it on windows 12:38:06 since trying to figure out where things die on a platform where I can't even C-c C-c without killing the inferior lisp is... not very fun 12:38:25 cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has joined #lisp 12:38:33 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has quit [Changing host] 12:38:33 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 12:38:44 someday someone will have the cycles to merge all the exciting windows patches 12:38:54 that'd be very nice 12:39:17 Dmitry's threaded binaries are already a huge help 12:39:26 I can run cl-gtk2 on both platforms now 12:41:52 silenius 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[~healy@129-2-134-86.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 13:12:56 dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:13:04 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:17:29 sellout [~Adium@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:17:50 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:17:53 jweiss [~user@cpe-069-134-063-238.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:18:02 root [~user@86.35.150.23] has joined #lisp 13:18:15 -!- root is now known as Guest94645 13:20:38 -!- Guest94645 [~user@86.35.150.23] has left #lisp 13:22:32 atomx` [~user@86.35.150.23] has joined #lisp 13:22:43 -!- LiamH [~healy@129-2-134-86.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:22:47 -!- atomx` [~user@86.35.150.23] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:25:17 pjb: I jsut read your response...I'm incredibly confused on what you mean by testing something that can't possibly happen 13:27:06 -!- vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:29:51 -!- fihi09 [~user@pool-71-190-76-39.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:30:07 fihi09 [~user@pool-71-190-76-39.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:54 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 13:32:44 vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 13:32:50 oh man, it's been compiling for 1.5h now or something like that 13:33:20 -!- greaver [~J@212.88.117.162] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:34:40 -!- mpasternacki [~user@chello080108072034.10.11.vie.surfer.at] has left #lisp 13:34:54 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 13:35:25 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 13:36:25 rmarianski [~rmariansk@209.20.72.181] has joined #lisp 13:36:40 atomx` [~user@86.35.150.23] has joined #lisp 13:37:46 -!- atomx` [~user@86.35.150.23] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:39:56 -!- 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[~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 13:58:14 -!- unithrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:03:29 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 14:03:29 alama [~alama@193.137.143.174] has joined #lisp 14:04:10 help! bordeaux-threads:make-thread no longer seems to be defined! 14:04:19 my hunchentoot server is useless :-( 14:04:49 what lisp are you using? 14:04:56 sbcl 14:05:10 i havent updated sbcl, but i did just update all my quicklisp stuff 14:05:57 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.158.70] has joined #lisp 14:06:00 i also did an (asdf:oos 'asdf:install "" :force t) 14:06:08 i normally don't do the :force t 14:06:27 when i did, it gave me some permission-denied errors (trying to write somewhere outside my home directory, for some reason) 14:06:28 did bordeaux-threads load properly? 14:06:39 is that even a recognized operation? 14:06:56 yeah, what pkhuong said 14:07:02 pkhuong: the :force? 14:07:10 asdf:install 14:07:12 sure, give it a try 14:07:28 no, that's not what you want to do 14:07:36 i'm hosing my ~/.cache/ 14:07:51 (asdf:load-system ...) 14:07:53 I don't even have asdf:install in my image. 14:08:33 I use asdf:load-op to load systems, fwiw. (Actually, I lie, I just REQUIRE) 14:10:21 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:10:49 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.158.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:11:01 muhdik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:11:18 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:12:01 ok, trashing my cache did it 14:12:04 phew 14:12:28 i don't know what went wrong; it seemed that the compilation of bordeaux-threads was in some weird incomplete state 14:12:37 but asdf was happy to load it as if it were 14:12:38 Xach: I'm currently trying hu.dwim.perec with sbcl 1.0.47.24, after removing my fasl cache 14:12:51 flip214: the suspense is killing me 14:12:59 haha 14:13:24 Xach: try holding your breath 14:13:46 So I'm not trying to be polite anymore, and just ask: why is it still not working? 14:13:48 ;-) 14:14:24 Can you help solving that? Did you, perhaps, already find some puzzle piece yesterday? 14:14:48 "The value NIL is not of type INTEGER." in ("hu.dwim.rdbms" "source" "logger") 14:14:51 flip214: All I found yesterday is that I can't locally reproduce the problem. 14:15:07 flip214: And neither could another user of 1.0.47.0 from debian 14:15:25 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-85-57.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:15:31 flip214: What happened when you tried with 1.0.47.24? 14:15:54 This _is_ with .24 ... Do you have time and the humor to look at the backtrace? 14:16:08 ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 14:16:10 flip214: Paste away 14:17:36 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 14:17:59 hmm, bot botched. http://paste.lisp.org/display/121499 14:18:49 nasty 14:19:51 there have been some mop-related bugs / fixes / churn recently 14:20:25 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81605B.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:21:03 flip214: Is it possible that there are some other non-quicklisp libraries being loaded? 14:21:27 flip214: One way to tell: blow away your cache again, (ql:quickload "hu.dwim.perec" :verbose t) and share the whole transcript (likely to be very large) 14:21:29 Can I ask SBCL? 14:22:17 flip214: well, your hu.dwim things look to be in the right place. i wonder about something like metabang-bind. (asdf:system-source-directory "metabang-bind") would tell you where it's from. 14:22:36 #P"/home/marek/.quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/metabang-bind-20110219-git/" 14:22:40 looks fine 14:22:41 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.46.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:23:23 flip214: Please try the full build with :verbose t, then. 14:23:32 I'm currently removing my last non-quicklisp package (cl-sql), and trying again. Yes, with verbose T. 14:23:53 jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.9.224] has joined #lisp 14:24:52 to make it easier ... is it enough if I check whether all files are from quicklisp? I just have to do a grep, that seems better than to paste some k lines 14:25:49 flip214: change the slot type of compile-time-level to (or null integer) 14:26:22 attila_lendvai1: in the dwim logger file? 14:26:25 wonder why it doesn't come up for me. I guess it's because of some safety level... did you declaim anything before loading? which sbcl version is that? 14:26:50 I also wonder why it doesn't come up for me. 14:27:36 are there any cl implementations of stemming algorithms out there? 14:27:40 -!- alama [~alama@193.137.143.174] has quit [Quit: alama] 14:27:44 Hmmm, I've got (declaim (optimize (debug 3) (safety 3))) in my sbclrc 14:27:54 flip214: see http://dwim.hu/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi?r=HEAD%20hu.dwim.logger;a=commitdiff;h=20110414142650-6b9e8-fae194e0c9d9e63cce1a53c98859a61cc7483f94.gz 14:27:55 flip214: there's yer "problem" right there. 14:28:16 I guess it's your safety 3 14:28:30 Is there a usual name for a case statement with fallthrough? 14:28:52 i also use safety 3 and debug 3 while developing... 14:29:09 chr`: what's wrong with CASE? 14:29:22 *attila_lendvai1* needs to leave 14:29:26 -!- attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has left #lisp 14:29:41 -!- deech [~user@71-81-145-18.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:30:17 (and i also don't like libraries which have tons of warnings while compiling) 14:30:18 varjag: the porter stemmer comes in approximately every language 14:30:29 I think there's a Franz (but mostly portable) implementation in CL 14:30:39 I've applied the change, tried "recompile component", and get "INFO: Control stack guard page unprotected"# 14:30:46 currently removing cache and recompiling 14:31:09 Krystof, thanks 14:31:36 jdz: (case dish ((:cheezeburger) 'add-cheeze) ((:hamburger :cheezeburger) 'add-burger)) 14:31:46 longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has joined #lisp 14:31:46 *Xach* wonders how long quicklisp builds would take at (safety 3) (debug 3) 14:31:57 s/z/s/g 14:32:14 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 14:32:38 jdz: I'd want both cheese and a burger when I ask for a cheeseburger. 14:32:45 Xach: is time really an issue? doesn't matter whether the release is a few hours earlier or not 14:33:04 Nope: [package hu.dwim.rdbms]........................... 14:33:04 ..........................INFO: Control stack guard page unprotected 14:33:04 Control stack guard page temporarily disabled: proceed with caution 14:33:11 dsop [~dsop@wthack.de] has joined #lisp 14:33:16 ("hu.dwim.rdbms" "source" "syntax" "select") 14:33:17 chr`: you don't use CASE then 14:33:22 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:33:25 flip214: It matters whether I have to wait 5 hours to find out how well everything works. 14:33:35 I searched for a reference of the swank protocl but haven't found anything. Does someone know a good ressource? 14:33:40 flip214: Try removing the declaim from your .sbclrc, restarting. 14:33:45 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 14:33:58 let it run overnight ... that's what I did in 1985 to get my 3D models printed from my C64, too ;-) 14:34:20 No thanks. 14:34:31 dsop: the source, unfortunately. 14:34:56 pkhuong: okay thank you. 14:35:09 chr`: how about a generic function DISH-COMPONENTS? 14:35:18 chr`: with an APPEND method combination? 14:35:37 Xach: you could make the tests run in parallel ... that should cut the times by a good factor. 14:35:48 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:36:42 jdz: Yes, I guess methods and eq specializers map better to what I'm looking for. 14:37:33 chr`: not really, wait a sec 14:38:48 Xach: thank you very much. Without the declaims the quickload was successfull (although it had _lots_ of warnings with :verbose T)! 14:39:09 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-85-57.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 14:39:29 -!- mcsontos_ [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-yjoxeukkpajlyacy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:39:54 brown [~user@nat/google/x-zfvfcrfcnurzxrvc] has joined #lisp 14:40:02 -!- brown [~user@nat/google/x-zfvfcrfcnurzxrvc] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:40:29 Xach: Is there already a way to load _all_ packages included in quicklisp, perhaps in a specified number of parallel threads? 14:41:43 chr`: http://paste.lisp.org/display/121502 14:41:52 that assumes an implementation that supports parallel loading. 14:42:19 flip214: Load into the same image? No. That can't work due to package conflicts. 14:42:40 pkhuong: well, the _loading_ could be done serialized - if only the compilation could be done in parallel ... 14:42:52 Xach: what's your preferred way to test all that, then? 14:43:17 xan_ [~xan@206.111.142.135.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 14:43:18 flip214: Update all projects, start one SBCL instance per project to attempt to load it. 14:44:59 jdz: Thanks! 14:45:04 xach: per project or per system? 14:45:10 flip214: per project 14:45:13 ok 14:45:18 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:45:25 Or per system. I can't remember. 14:45:43 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 14:46:31 loke [~elias@bb121-6-230-233.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 14:47:09 chr`: actually you should have a class cheese-mixin, and specialize on that. then cheeseburger would have as superclasses hamburger and cheese-mixin 14:47:11 astoon [~chatzilla@nat121-249-205-109.tvoe.tv] has joined #lisp 14:47:26 chr`: but you get the idea, have fun. 14:48:02 brown [~user@nat/google/x-udxawghlyvpjwvwe] has joined #lisp 14:48:52 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 14:50:15 well, a cheesy-dish-mixin, I suppose. 14:50:57 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@h-74-2-1-101.lsanca54.static.covad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:52:28 pkhuong: yeah, to avoid conflicts with cheesy-movie-mixin 14:52:56 -!- brown [~user@nat/google/x-udxawghlyvpjwvwe] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:52:57 i guess nobody would make cheese-mixin to mix in with movies, but who knows? 14:53:52 I found it funny to see that I misspelled cheese as per the "I can haz" meme. The internet made me do it. 14:54:19 jdz: also, because inheritance expresses is-a, not has-a. 14:54:45 -!- aerique [310225@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 14:55:07 pkhuong: yes, thats a good reason for the name 14:55:59 *Landr* kicks hunchentoot 14:56:02 stop being so confusing 14:56:58 -!- elliottcable is now known as ec|detached 14:59:10 brown [~user@nat/google/x-jnpbnqwnuxshphqm] has joined #lisp 14:59:31 -!- brown [~user@nat/google/x-jnpbnqwnuxshphqm] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:59:56 what is the time format of openGenera? i want tu run it on linux vlm but i fail setting the time 15:00:29 adarnimrod [~nimrod@109.67.203.201] has joined #lisp 15:03:12 -!- adarnimrod [~nimrod@109.67.203.201] has quit [Client Quit] 15:03:55 alama [~alama@193.137.143.174] has joined #lisp 15:06:25 -!- alama [~alama@193.137.143.174] has quit [Client Quit] 15:06:51 Bronsa [~brace@host68-183-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:08:33 carlocci 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[~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 17:21:23 pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 17:24:06 -!- H4ns [~H4ns@p579FAE40.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: H4ns] 17:27:23 any way to see the memory usage of a lisp object? 17:27:50 *Xach* has deja vu 17:28:29 o.O 17:28:37 asked earlier today? 17:28:45 Landr: there isn't a standard way aside from ROOM. 17:28:48 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-67-209.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:53 Landr: and ROOM is gross. 17:28:57 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.215.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:29:02 hmm, well, it's not really necessary 17:29:13 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:29:17 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:29:19 i just wanted to know if I could use a running lisp as my makeshift database 17:29:34 or whether i'd have to use stored files and such 17:29:34 you can 17:30:04 It's hard to say what `the memory usage of a Lisp object' is, Landr. Consider (let ((t (list x y z))) (let ((a (cons 5 t)) (b (cons 3 t))) ...)). Assume x, y, and z use one word of memory each, and a pair is represented by two words of memory. How much memory does a use? How much memory does b use? 17:30:34 *Landr* counts 17:30:47 Landr: when in doubt, just spend $0.27 on another GB of memory 17:30:56 9 words for the (list x y z) thing 17:31:04 binary_crayon [~binary_cr@67.69.26.138] has joined #lisp 17:31:04 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:09 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:31:28 -!- binary_crayon [~binary_cr@67.69.26.138] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:31:30 -!- emporas [~emporas@85.75.211.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:31:39 You could say that a and b each use two words of memory, because they're both pairs, but that wouldn't be very insightful, because then any complicated data structure would be considered to use only as much memory as some struct or instance that fronts for the whole data structure. 17:31:45 and since a and b are linked to t, they don't use extra memory aside from their cons + item = 3 words 17:32:09 Landr: What is the sound of one hand clapping? 17:32:33 "wak wak wak" 17:32:54 You could transitively follow each of a and b, but then you'd double-count a lot of words in your accounting of the heap. What if you count the reference to an instance's class, which has references to all its superclasses and subclasses? That's a lot of double-counting, and not very useful. 17:33:40 ccl:object-direct-size and ccl:heap-utilization can sometimes give you an idea (if you use ccl) 17:33:44 *rme* repeats himself 17:34:13 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-67-209.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:34:29 Suddenly, ROOM doesn't see so gross, after all. 17:34:34 seem 17:34:48 well, I just wanted to come up with a good argument to the inevitable question "so, what is this weird lisp thing, and why aren't you using a mysql database?" 17:35:07 Landr: the answer is not to be found in lisp, but in mysql. 17:35:15 heh 17:35:17 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NoSQL 17:35:24 I like postgresql + postmodern myself 17:35:33 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NoSQL_%28RDBMS%29 17:36:05 bege [~bege@S0106001cf0520ea3.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:10 cat + grep? :> 17:36:31 err, grep and awk and sed probably 17:36:48 akimbo [~oy@cpe-098-026-112-003.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:36:58 Landr: you can use MySQL with lisp if you like 17:37:26 nah, don't wanna :> 17:37:38 Landr: What's the size of your database? What's the size of your memory? 17:38:32 also, what's the nature of your database? 17:38:33 pjb: a kilobyte or something :D it's just as a general idea "even IF every entry used a kilobyte of memory, I could easily handle 2 million entries in RAM" 17:38:57 something like a key-value store would obviously be much easier if you're making it essentially from scratch 17:39:00 Landr: that's not the point. The point is that the WHOLE database holds in the memory. 17:39:14 So there's no point in using complexities such as a RDBMS. 17:39:22 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-249-24.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 17:40:18 I guess I could just have a database as plists, and at the end of the day write them to a file, then the next day/reboot (load "database.file") to have them all back? 17:40:30 good evening everyone 17:41:00 Landr: you can do that 17:41:06 of course, there are risks 17:41:16 if your process crashes, you've lost data 17:41:36 depending on the nature of the database, it might be easyish to write a transaction log when modifications are made 17:41:40 carlocci [~nes@93.37.210.139] has joined #lisp 17:42:23 -!- deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:42:40 maybe have it create a diff file then? 17:42:43 ikki [~ikki@189.139.232.75] has joined #lisp 17:42:57 gigamonkey [~user@99.39.5.211] has joined #lisp 17:43:53 heck no, I don't even need that! just write out the actual commands to a file, and on reset load the original database and load/execute the commands in the other file, then write the final output 17:43:55 cpc26 [~cpc26@66-87-2-151.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:04 *Landr* has another "woah" moment 17:44:19 delicious raw power of programming 17:45:05 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-65-203-181.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:46:21 cmm [~cmm@109.65.203.181] has joined #lisp 17:47:05 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-28-215.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:40 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-211-57.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:13 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-28-215.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:52:36 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:52:47 -!- koollman [~samson_t@sp1.kooll.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:53:05 -!- Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483D5CF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:54:26 Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483D5CF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:05 Landr: doing something like your above for persistence had a lot of momentum a decade ago, e.g. see http://www.prevayler.org/old_wiki/PrevalenceSkepticalFAQ.html 17:57:27 hahaha 17:58:07 sure hope your business data can withstand a power outage just before the daily snapshot! 17:58:51 you have to be rul careful 17:59:57 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-133-129-228.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 18:00:02 -!- Jake_ is now known as mekajfire 18:00:25 -!- Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:01:14 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:01:17 leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has joined #lisp 18:02:25 pdlogan: even tiptoeing around the server room can't prevent catastrophic data loss if the power goes out and the only backup you have is in volatile memory 18:03:13 also, that FAQ is outdated with regards to SSDs. 18:03:25 antifuchs: don't get me wrong - I've never used that and am not recommending it to anyone - just saying, it was really popular back in the day. 18:03:48 keping the database as part of image might be fun, but I'm unsure if I'd go with it, SSDs or not. 18:03:59 I know... not caring about the durability part in a database still is popular 18:04:03 write-logs are useful for recovery 18:04:06 because it makes the db so much faster in benchmarks (: 18:04:17 Evious [~n_a@s64-180-62-209.bc.hsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:55 antifuchs: or because your chief evangelist likes to use the database only as dumb storage (*COUGH*DHH*COUGH*) 18:05:04 the prevalence thing makes too many assumptions and puts too much on new code to "get right" 18:05:35 p_l|backup: yeah, well. I'm considering the case where the data you put in has actual dollar value (: 18:06:02 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-133-129-228.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has left #lisp 18:06:09 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-133-129-228.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 18:06:29 Yay, I finally learned how easy it is to calculate an exponentially weighted moving average. 18:07:24 well, I'm using PostgreSQL now for a project (through the wonderful hu.dwim.perec) mainly due to data reliability... which happens to encompass more than just the fact that PgSQL has all the nice RDBMS' features for that :) 18:08:02 astalla [~astalla@dynamic-adsl-94-36-30-157.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 18:08:35 gigamonkey: Something like y(n) = a*y(n-1)+(1-a)*x(n)? 18:08:56 rtoym: that'd be the one. 18:08:58 there's also the fact that in case of being hit by a bus (an important disaster recovery scenario!), $RANDOM_CONTRACTOR has bigger chances of getting the data out of a well known and supported database (pgsql), compared to rather specific and abnormal Rucksack 18:09:05 p_l|backup: Perec? Interesting. Any particular reason why that over postmodenr? 18:09:07 *postmodern 18:09:28 redline6561: good support of stuff like relationships etc. 18:09:39 (also, it ends up using postmodern underneath anyway) 18:09:53 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-85-57.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:10:20 p_l|backup: Ah, got it. Thanks. 18:12:27 redline6561: also, I fell in love with defptype 18:12:31 and defmapping 18:12:38 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-197-204.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:52 p_l|backup: Looking them up now. :) 18:13:01 acelent [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:ddfc] has joined #lisp 18:13:52 deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 18:14:01 redline6561: just google "pinterface perec tutorial" 18:14:27 it's not completely current, but it's probably one of the best tutorials other than reading source :P 18:14:50 p_l|backup: Yep. Reading it now. 18:15:08 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-211-57.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:15:16 p_l|backup: Wait a sec...are you pinterface? 18:15:24 (part two about defptype and defmapping is significant reason for my choice of perec) 18:15:27 no 18:15:48 p_l|backup: Gotcha. 18:15:55 my (currently mostly-dead) stuff lives at unya.wordpress.com :) 18:17:20 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:17:21 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-92-102-125.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:17:58 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:51 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host68-183-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:21:40 HG` [~HG@p5DC053E3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:22:35 meh still trying to get openGenera running, i feel stupid 18:23:09 schaueho [~schaueho@88.66.21.223] has joined #lisp 18:23:17 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C4F42.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:22 for wasting your time? 18:24:43 nah i am sure it is worth it but i wasted the whole day, really could have been done faster 18:25:03 urandom__: well, you can always buy it and get it delivered as turnkey system with support... 18:26:20 -!- joachifm [~joachim@212.7.195.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:26:35 i dont buy software. also it is expensive i gues 18:26:54 ~$2000 last time I checked, plus some hw costs I guess 18:27:12 -!- pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has left #lisp 18:28:03 also, the hw is no longer made 18:28:30 koollman [~samson_t@sp1.kooll.info] has joined #lisp 18:28:53 milanj [~milanj_@109-92-102-125.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 18:29:32 i wouldnt be able to afford it even if i wanted to 18:30:15 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-197-204.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:30:15 there used to be some step-by-step walkthrough available, but I don't remember where that was 18:30:24 but even with that, I didn't get it working either 18:30:41 -!- antgreen [~user@12.232.236.137] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:30:43 -!- dullard [~user@188-223-137-38.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:30:47 sorry, not going to go through uploading my VM image 18:30:54 ThatIsBarNone [818264a1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.129.130.100.161] has joined #lisp 18:31:26 _3b ``Erik a7p abeaumont absence ace4016 acelent acieroid Adamant adeht Adlai Adrinael Aisling akimbo akkartik albino algorist_ Amadiro amb007 andreer antifuchs AntiSpamMeta antoszka aoh araujo arbscht Areil astalla astoon Athas azaq23 beach bege benny bfein billstclair BlankVerse Blkt bohanlon Bootvis Borbus borism borkamaniac Bucciarati Buganini bzzbzz CallToPower carlocci cataska ccl-logbot chr` christop1_debian chupish chur 18:31:40 ThatIsBarNone: congratulations, erc user (-: 18:31:43 i have read every walkthrough that is avaible by searching with google 18:31:52 lol ok 18:31:54 what's erc 18:32:00 ah, well. 18:32:09 antifuchs: I thought the same ;-) 18:32:12 it's an irc client that makes it easy to do what you just did by accident (: 18:32:35 oh. It's freenode webchat really 18:33:04 ^ that I'm on. 18:33:19 antgreen [~user@12.232.236.2] has joined #lisp 18:34:35 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:34:36 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.139.232.75] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:35:08 -!- ThatIsBarNone [818264a1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.129.130.100.161] has quit [Client Quit] 18:35:54 -!- antgreen [~user@12.232.236.2] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:36:07 antgreen` [~user@12.232.236.106] has joined #lisp 18:36:10 pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:18 eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 18:40:38 -!- pnq [~nick@host-224.ssu.portsmouth.oh.us] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:40:57 pnq [~nick@host-224.ssu.portsmouth.oh.us] has joined #lisp 18:43:12 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-246-206.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:46 -!- Liera [~Liera@113.172.41.82] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:45:01 Joreji_ [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:45:04 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 18:45:24 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:07 aperturefever [~shevek@ppp079166187001.dsl.hol.gr] has joined #lisp 18:50:11 -!- antgreen` [~user@12.232.236.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:50:57 greetings 18:51:24 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has joined #lisp 18:56:37 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-249-24.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:59:44 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:58 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-246-206.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:00:48 -!- aperturefever [~shevek@ppp079166187001.dsl.hol.gr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:04:32 -!- pnq [~nick@host-224.ssu.portsmouth.oh.us] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:04:35 varjag [~eugene@62.249.169.4] has joined #lisp 19:05:28 -!- akimbo [~oy@cpe-098-026-112-003.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:06:09 pnq [~nick@host-224.ssu.portsmouth.oh.us] has joined #lisp 19:09:01 lanthan [~ze@p54B7CA44.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:00 -!- lanthan [~ze@p54B7CA44.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:11:19 lanthan [~ze@p54B7CA44.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:57 -!- pnq [~nick@host-224.ssu.portsmouth.oh.us] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:12:32 pnq [~nick@host-224.ssu.portsmouth.oh.us] has joined #lisp 19:12:59 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@88.66.21.223] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:13:38 -!- Areil [~user@113.172.41.82] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:13:59 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-63-224.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:31 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:17:03 -!- enupten [~neptune@117.254.113.12] has quit [Quit: quitting...] 19:18:03 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:12 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:20:53 ASau [~user@93-80-248-41.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 19:22:21 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-133-129-228.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: quit] 19:25:15 antgreen` [~user@12.232.236.106] has joined #lisp 19:26:38 superjudge [~mjl@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:27:07 Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:55 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:31:20 -!- HG` [~HG@p5DC053E3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:32:50 davekong [~davekong@unaffiliated/davekong] has joined #lisp 19:33:00 Should lisp executable be able to be stripped? 19:33:19 emporas [~emporas@athedsl-170924.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 19:35:55 udzinari [~user@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 19:36:31 -!- leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:36:40 udzinari` [~user@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 19:36:49 -!- udzinari` [~user@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:37:33 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:37:34 bgs101 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:38:11 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Disconnected by services] 19:38:15 -!- bgs101 is now known as bgs100 19:38:19 udzinari` [~user@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 19:39:57 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:40:29 -!- udzinari [~user@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:42:47 -!- davekong [~davekong@unaffiliated/davekong] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 19:43:12 -!- hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp_] 19:47:57 pdlogan: always nice to have fresh ideas and discovering it's been done decades earlier :> 19:48:04 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:49:41 -!- Joreji [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:50:55 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:51:25 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-7.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:52:28 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-63-224.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:53:04 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 19:53:10 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:57:36 -!- antgreen` [~user@12.232.236.106] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:58:38 tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:00:08 billitch [~billitch@88.183.197.206] has joined #lisp 20:00:50 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:01:27 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 20:02:21 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d0037bf.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:02:42 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:04:05 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:05:14 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 20:05:24 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-198-24.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:55 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:06:09 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Client Quit] 20:07:00 -!- thomashc [~thomas@108.129.108.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:08:09 thomashc [~thomas@108.129.123.147] has joined #lisp 20:08:15 ikki [~ikki@189.139.232.75] has joined #lisp 20:10:25 -!- seangrove [~user@c-98-234-242-172.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:13:36 francogrex [~user@109.130.60.65] has joined #lisp 20:13:56 pulling our hair out here... anytime I have a script file that launches an sbcl executable image, then does "tail -f logger.txt", when I ^C out of tail, it sends a SIGINT to lisp 20:14:19 Hi, a general question: has anyone here (or anyone you know) programmed epidemic modelling in cl ? 20:14:20 This is probably more of a shell programming question, but we've tried nohup, & + disown, etc 20:15:25 the lisp is intended to be a daemon; the script with the tail -f is just a convenience launcher 20:15:35 but the fact that SIGINT goes through is baffling 20:16:33 Phooodus: it's about the (terminal or whatever they call it) process group, I think 20:16:46 launch the tail in its own pgroup and it should be fine 20:16:48 (I hope) 20:17:06 *Phooodus* looks into it 20:17:47 Phooodus: & and nohup are your friends 20:17:53 tried it, as I said 20:17:55 oh wait, you tried those 20:18:04 hmm, there should be a disown somewhere 20:18:32 script a: ./b & \n tail -f logger.txt script b: nohup ./lisp-image & 20:18:39 still kills lisp when you ^C in the tail display 20:19:00 but googling the process group stuff 20:20:24 francogrex: once I programmed a trivial little simulation of human reproduction on a virgin planet, would that qualify as an epidemic modeling? http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/small-cl-pgms/douze.lisp 20:20:29 :-) 20:20:38 b looks right to me. the tail in that case is: tail -f nohup.out 20:20:40 ? 20:20:41 Could anyone recommend a good setup for Emacs if I wish to work with CLISP? 20:21:32 Phooodus: what exactly is tail tailing? 20:21:33 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.215.77] has joined #lisp 20:21:38 Zol: you may try slime and clisp-2.49, nowadays. 20:21:49 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.139.232.75] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:21:56 Landr: the lisp-image is appending to logger.txt 20:21:57 Zol: slime is an emacs program that makes working with Common Lisp pretty nice. CLISP support is not as good as SBCL and other CLs, though. 20:21:59 Zol: but honestly, as soon as you start debugging, you will want to revert to inferior-lisp. 20:22:10 Phooodus: so you can't start the lisp image in one command, and tail in another? 20:22:13 Zol: happily, inferior-lisp + clisp is as good as slime + sbcl. 20:22:29 Phooodus: actually, if you're using run-program, I don't think sbcl allows you to set a pgroup 20:22:39 antifuchs: (sb-posix:setsid) seemed to fix the ^C issue 20:22:41 also, sbcl doesn't go into the background. 20:22:43 cool 20:22:46 pjb: Really? That doesn't seem especially likely. 20:22:54 (slime was mostly motivated by the deficiencies in sbcl). 20:23:03 can't exit via a swank connection, though 20:23:04 pjb: Thanks! Will look into inferior-lisp 20:23:12 Xach: before sbcl existed, there was no need for slime. Everybody was happy with inferior-lisp . 20:23:28 pjb: you know that slime targeted cmucl first, right? 20:23:36 pjb: Sure, and before cars existed, there was no need for gas stations. 20:23:47 antifuchs: not surprising, sbcl is a fork of cmucl. 20:23:48 Everyone was happy with horseshit in the road. 20:23:53 well, ilisp 20:23:56 Xach: exactly. 20:24:12 pjb: I'm glad history is written by the victorious party. 20:24:15 back in my day we used to walk 50 miles uphill in horseshit and we liked it! 20:24:20 Zol: I'm partisan to simple tools: they don't get in the way. 20:24:55 I get "# is closed" when I'm doing shutdown stuff... 20:25:17 split it off into a new stream? 20:25:43 I did close them, then set *standard-output* and *error-output* to the same opened "/dev/null" for writing 20:25:48 at startup 20:26:07 but that probably didn't do the proper low level file descriptor whatever 20:26:18 Zol: to answer your question, install quicklisp from http://quicklisp.org/, (ql:quickload :quicklisp-slime-helper) and set your inferior-lisp-program to "clisp" and you'll be set. 20:26:33 stassats`: in Slime, is it be possible to add a hooking mechanism to swank::dispatch-event, as the one in slime-dispatch-event? the purpose would be to allow further commands 20:26:45 phooodus try: nohup ./b & \n tail -f nohup.out 20:26:56 ah, using the shell to 2> and 1> to dev/null and not closing anything from the lisp end seemed to fix that 20:27:22 acelent: it's certainly possible, you can do that yourself. will it be included into slime is another question 20:27:27 danlentz_: from inside another script? 20:27:29 If slime didn't exit when the clisp debugger enters, it would be already something... 20:27:42 (inferior-lisp doesn't exit on this occurence!) 20:27:53 pjb: if only there were source code available for both! 20:28:08 -!- pnq [~nick@host-224.ssu.portsmouth.oh.us] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:28:13 antifuchs: yep :-) 20:28:19 -!- superjudge [~mjl@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:28:51 we need, I dunno, some legal documents that would let us allow to change them... and a culture that encourages changing and sharing those changes! 20:28:59 it could be wonderful! 20:29:01 pjb: lol; I was thinking more of the SIR model of epidemics... but I'll take a look at your example :) 20:29:21 antifuchs: we'd also need somebody with an itch to scratch. I'm happy with inferior-lisp and clisp. 20:29:24 stassats`: why not? 20:29:44 Which leads to the conclusion I mentionned above: slime was developed only because of the deficiencies in cmucl/sbcl. 20:29:47 acelent: i don't have an opinion about this feature, you'd need to ask on slime-devel@ 20:30:09 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:32:56 pjb: I don't really care if you want to troll for somebody to waste time on things you don't want anyway, but please do it in a way that doesn't interfere with people who want to learn about lisp. 20:32:58 phooodus that is from a script i am using -- just thought I'd toss it out there for consideration 20:34:02 acelent: I thought that was possible already and that's what the slime-image thing uses 20:35:11 -!- benny [~benny@i577A1DA7.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:35:40 danlentz_: nohup doesn't seem to detach the tty 20:35:52 -!- tsuru [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:36:00 tcr: do you have a pointer/url to slime-image? 20:36:00 Joreji [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:36:12 If I may, what sounds better on a [formal] business card: "Symbolic Engineer" or "Lisp Hacker" (open to other suggestions) 20:36:18 ? 20:36:25 (for a lisp developer) 20:36:41 I own a software company and have hired people. I'd prefer "Lisp Hacker" 20:36:49 phooodus meaning you nohup and it still prints to stdout? 20:37:07 Phooodus: What sorts of things do you develop? 20:37:07 no, ps still reports the same tty as the shell that launched it 20:37:23 ai for software automation 20:37:35 Phooodus: What counts as "software automation"? 20:37:58 the system looks at the whole knowledge state & infers what it should do 20:38:21 Phooodus: could you give an example if you have time? 20:39:00 put the knowledge of your software application (or customer database, or game world, etc) into a fact base. Infer the actions to perform next from that state 20:39:11 it's basically declarative server programming 20:39:19 but without a "program counter" :) 20:40:18 ikki [~ikki@189.247.82.87] has joined #lisp 20:40:29 Phooodus: I'd probably nag you for a job if I didn't have one 20:40:29 sylecn [~sylecn@cpe-70-112-211-195.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:41:37 tcr: is this it? http://common-lisp.net/pipermail/slime-devel/2008-April/007264.html 20:42:08 ace4016: I'm talking about a more recent stub from christophe rhodes 20:42:26 *acelent 20:43:49 slime-media 20:44:01 Nikodemus said a while back that it wasn't easy to use from lisp 20:44:23 I think because I used png rather than :png or something:png 20:44:35 phooodus and nothing in nohup.out? ok, try explicitly giving fully qualified pathname eg: /usr/bin/nohup since you are calling these in scripts you are at the mercy of the shell you are using. some shells default to an internal builtin version of nohup 20:45:12 we're not writing to stdout anyway, so nohup.out is irrelevant 20:45:19 antifuchs: thanks! But I'm a bit confused.. Quicklisp, will that integrate into emacs? 20:45:39 but anyway, shell redirection, double-fork, and setsid seemed to be our cure 20:45:41 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.82.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:45:41 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.103] has joined #lisp 20:45:50 hah, just saw the "To use, add this to your ~/.emacs" 20:46:13 Zol: yeah, the quicklisp-slime-helper is just a helper, but it also helps keep slime up to date and stuff (-: 20:46:18 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.103] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:46:21 Krystof: ok, i think i found it (http://common-lisp.net/pipermail/slime-devel/2010-September/017724.html), but it seems there's only an emacs side for it 20:46:35 well, I have an R side 20:46:40 that might not be what you're looking for 20:47:13 Krystof: right :) i'm looking for the common-lisp side of (add-hook 'slime-event-hooks ...) 20:47:37 antifuchs: awesome, thanks again! 20:47:38 i'll just write to the dev mailing list 20:47:51 the common-lisp (swank) side is just to send events 20:47:58 Zol: you're welcome! have fun (: 20:48:04 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:48:19 I think you can look at the presentation side to get a feeling 20:48:24 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 20:48:46 Krystof: yes, but it has a totalitarian destructuring-case that doesn't let you send whatever you want... 20:48:50 acelent: send-to-emacs 20:48:56 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:49:00 -!- sylecn [~sylecn@cpe-70-112-211-195.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:49:19 Krystof: send-to-emacs gets to dispatch-event somehow, either immediately or queueing the event 20:49:34 antgreen [~user@12.232.236.106] has joined #lisp 20:49:53 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:50:03 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:35 sylecn [~sylecn@cpe-70-112-211-195.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:50:49 -!- The_Fellow [~storm2@glida.mooo.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:51:38 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-249-24.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 20:51:41 is there a way to get comma-variables in function names in macros? i mean something along the lines of (defmacro create-new-category (a) `(defun add-,a-to-item (item) ... 20:52:15 Landr: you can create symbols programmatically using INTERN 20:52:25 ? 20:52:29 acelent: ah, right, I think slime-media assumes that it's returning a repl result 20:52:30 Landr: quasiquote works on s-expressions, and splice values in trees. You want to create a new symbol and splice it in. 20:52:43 ahh, I see 20:52:51 insert string, receive symbol 20:54:01 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.60.65] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:54:18 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-4-198.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 20:54:18 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-4-198.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Changing host] 20:54:18 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 20:55:36 Landr: in such cases, it might help your understanding if you imagine that backquote did not exist 20:55:48 how would you write your macro then? 20:56:13 (defmacro foo (a) (list 'defun (compute-symbol-name-from a) '(item) ...)) 20:56:16 (intern (format nil "create-~A-this" a) ,,, ? 20:56:56 The_Fellow [~storm2@glida.mooo.com] has joined #lisp 20:57:23 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 20:57:32 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C4F42.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:58:09 Landr: exactly 20:58:11 Landr: be aware that standard common-lisp uses upper-case for symbols unless escaped. that is, 'x is actually X 20:58:21 yes, it's giving my upcase and | trouble 20:58:28 but i think i can work around that somehow :> 20:58:39 antifuchs: the problem is that I cannot really advice slime to somebody who ask what to use with emacs and clisp, since at the first opportunity, slime will break. 20:58:52 pjb: then silence is a wonderful option! 20:59:06 -!- xan_ [~xan@99.13.242.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:59:12 Landr: one common idiom is (format nil "~A-~A-~A" '#:create a '#:this) 20:59:16 Landr: either do an fugly (format nil 'create-~a-this a) or (format nil "~a-~a-~a" '#:create a '#:this) 20:59:37 i.e. let the reader take care of case 20:59:49 -!- sylecn [~sylecn@cpe-70-112-211-195.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:59:58 acelent: nice, I forgot symbols are string designators :) 21:00:02 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 21:00:12 sylecn [~sylecn@cpe-70-112-211-195.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:00:22 astalla: and acelent forgot that format doesn't take a designator. 21:00:30 ouch :D 21:00:31 (format nil (string 'create-~a-this) a) 21:00:48 astalla: works fine, especially if I add string-downcase to the beginning! 21:00:50 Landr: be advised that creating names this way in macros is often a bad idea. 21:01:25 but I want the user to be able to add their own categories, and then easily do (add-to-$category this) 21:01:32 with string-downcase you'll get the symbol |create-a-this| 21:01:59 pjb: which could still fail on :invert, so, really, what's the point? 21:02:18 which is not what you get when you type create-a-this into the repl, at least with default readtable-case 21:02:24 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 21:02:25 astalla: now, I would advise against either solution: use the same case as A, or just use whatever you want. The problem is what happens when you write (setf (readtable-case *readtable*) :downcase *package* (find-package "ANOTHER-PACKAGE")) (list (foo:foo 'aha) (foo:foo '|aHa|)) 21:02:56 hmm 21:03:13 Landr: Depending on what you're trying to do, a generic function with methods using an EQL specializer generated by the macro may be a better solution. 21:03:26 I'd use the case that the reader would have used if I had manually typed the symbol 21:03:34 in such a case 21:03:57 astalla: only, you don't know in what case the symbol has been typed. 21:03:59 i suppose, hm 21:04:15 Sometimes it's the right thing to do. But do not be mislead by the bad example of DEFSTRUCT. 21:04:19 astalla: and don't confuse the readtable when the macro is defined, with the one when it's used. 21:04:25 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212.198.126.167] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:04:38 what happened to cltl3? was it a serious effort with commercial interest? 21:04:57 acelent: it progresses at the speed we can invest in. 21:05:13 gah, stupid straight bars, go away 21:05:33 (oddly, Clisp creates both my-symbol and |my-symbol|) 21:07:15 pjb: what's the thought on case sensitivity (if any)? 21:07:57 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.65.203.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:07:58 everything should be lower-case, disallow any other cases 21:08:16 that way you still old terminals which support only one case 21:08:21 still can use 21:08:33 varjag_ [~eugene@62.249.169.4] has joined #lisp 21:08:47 -!- varjag_ [~eugene@62.249.169.4] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:09:03 cmm [~cmm@109.65.203.181] has joined #lisp 21:09:08 Landr: those bars are because you've created a symbol with lower-case characters in its name. 21:09:27 ahh, right 21:09:34 it all gets upcased, not downcased 21:09:39 the opposite of "straight bar" that you don't like would be ... 21:09:42 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:09:44 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-3-116.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:23 -!- sylecn [~sylecn@cpe-70-112-211-195.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:11:07 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-198-24.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:11:53 sylecn [~sylecn@cpe-70-112-211-195.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:12:59 -!- orivej [~orivej@host-59-146-66-217.spbmts.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:14:01 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-92-102-125.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:14:21 i *really* hope no one's using these (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASR-33_Teletype) anymore... 21:14:22 Phooodus: <>? 21:14:29 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:16:06 acelent: if people still use Lisp, there might be someone who still use ASR-33 too 21:16:11 Okay.. So I got SLIME working.. Now I just have to figure out how to use it. :) 21:17:37 benny [~benny@87.122.112.195] has joined #lisp 21:17:59 C-c C-k is about all you need 21:18:01 -!- the-J-thing [~john@224.13.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:18:08 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-178-6.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:18:29 also, M-x slime-cheat-sheet 21:19:12 tab completion is M-tab (or Esc Tab) inside lisp files, since Tab is reindent 21:19:33 stassats`: come on! lisp isn't the lisp it used to be, using only common-lisp is as silly as using only ansi pascal (vs some variant of object pascal) i dare say that, for instance, acl's modern-case (i.e. default lower-case) is just one of the screams that (common?) lisp must go through more growth pain, which is being supported by its users for the last decades 21:19:44 Landr: http://paste.lisp.org/display/121519 21:19:47 Phooodus: Thanks! 21:19:56 however, the teletype won't go anywhere, and i dare say its value is merely historic 21:20:07 alright, i'm silly, what of it? 21:20:26 Are you aware that ALL lisp's can be made case sensitive? 21:20:36 requiring single-case symbols in modern lisp is like requiring 8.3 filename limits inside linux 21:20:47 Younder: actually, i wasn't :) 21:20:59 That is in fact a part of that ANSI standard.. 21:21:08 acelent: i also don't like change, because i spent so much time learning lisp, and don't want to repeat this process again 21:21:21 Younder: oh... but then you must write (DEFUN myfunction () (MAPCAR ... 21:21:24 acelent: I don't mind using other lisps than Common Lisp, as long as the intersection between them and Common Lisp not be ridiculous. In particular, if most of the usualy Common Lisp libraries can run on your specific lisp, then I'd accept it. If not, then I'd avoid losing time with it. 21:21:27 -!- sylecn [~sylecn@cpe-70-112-211-195.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:21:35 Phooodus: that's to keep camel-casers away 21:21:38 stassats`: it's less "learning" and more "getting used to" with things like that 21:21:49 acelent: The Common Lisp standard explicitely allows subsets and supersets of the language it defines. 21:21:55 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-178-6.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:22:27 Phooodus: I'd agree. I don't have anything against (setf (readtable-case *readtable*) :preserve) 21:22:33 pjb: but it doesn't allow more or less symbols in the CL package, or does it? 21:22:35 (I'm an ex- Modula-2 programmer). 21:22:38 paul0 [~user@177.16.108.84] has joined #lisp 21:22:55 pjb: i don't understand all of it ;/ 21:23:02 acelent: Instead of writing (defpackage "MY-PROGRAM" (:use "CL")), write (defpackage "MY-PROGRAM" (:use "MY-SUPER-LISP")) 21:23:23 Landr: read the clhs and the books and tutorials. One day you will understand it. 21:23:33 pjb: I did that, actually. That's the snarc project. 21:23:47 and don't forget to write some code too 21:23:51 pjb: true. i'd even use uninterned symbols to name packages 21:23:57 acelent: or: (defpackage "MY-PROGRAM" (:use "SUBSET-OF-CL-THAT-COMPILES-EFFICIENTLY-ON-MY-MICRO-CONTROLLER")) 21:24:14 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-195-217.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:14 -!- sellout [~Adium@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:24:42 acelent: http://paste.lisp.org/display/84252 21:25:09 ikki [~ikki@189.247.157.66] has joined #lisp 21:25:18 acelent: of course, you have to be careful with more than just the symbols you use. How you use them is important too, when you consider different lisps such as CL vs scheme or CL vs. emacs. 21:25:54 stassats`: If I had an ASR-33 I'd love to use it still. However, finding the paper and paper tape would be hard... 21:26:23 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@209.20.72.181] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:26:33 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-3-116.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:29:40 NamelessTee [~Ben@AAmiens-753-1-4-25.w90-58.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:31:23 (setq (intern "foobar") 239) doesn't work, and yet (intern "foobar") should return a symbol :\ 21:31:53 where can I find a small tutorial about threads in CL? 21:31:55 Landr: setq is a special form that expects a literal symbol 21:32:02 ah, d'oh 21:32:06 not an expression that evaluates to a symbol 21:32:50 Blkt: threads in CL aren't any different from other threads 21:32:56 well, similar problem with defvar: DEFVAR: non-symbol (INTERN "foobar") cannot be a variable 21:33:13 but (type-of (intern "foobar")) => SYMBOL 21:33:14 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16] has joined #lisp 21:33:43 Landr: as a shortcut to understand common-lisp, try macroexpanding some CL macros: defun, defvar, etc 21:34:03 Landr: defvar is a macro that expects a literal symbol 21:34:13 argh 21:34:20 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-215-60.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:34:22 Landr: If I ask you for an integer, you would not input "sqrt(16)", even though sqrt(16) => 4 21:34:23 stassats`: I suppose it, but I never used them in other languages 21:34:31 Landr: try (macroexpand '(defvar (intern '#:foo) value)) 21:34:39 Quadrescence: but i'd expect it to evaluate sqrt(16) 21:34:54 Landr: If *I* ask you, you would not tell me "sqrt(16)" 21:35:44 Landr: thing is, you must read the documentation for special operators and macros to know which arguments are evaluated and which are not 21:36:15 ah, it puts a ' in front of it 21:36:16 Landr: on function calls, everything gets evaluates before the call 21:36:21 If you had menu options, you would not use an obscure expression. The point of "special forms" are that they don't do the expected evaluations. They're special cases. 21:36:23 Quadrescence: but of course, sqrt(16) is a syntax error 21:36:31 blargh :\ 21:36:41 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:36:44 stassats`: more like syntax condition, eh 21:37:06 it's a subtypep! 21:37:11 Landr: however, be careful with the knowledge macroexpand gives you, because often it's very specific for the common-lisp implementation, using internal struff 21:37:11 subtype 21:37:51 upward [4650d110@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.80.209.16] has joined #lisp 21:39:05 I'll be doing a 5 minutes presentation about Common Lisp at my local linux meetup, I was thinking of presenting the syntax (sexps) and give one example of an interesting macro 21:39:49 Anyone has a good idea about a simple macro that I could use that illustrates the power of macros while being accessible to programmers who know little about lisp? 21:40:05 -!- varjag [~eugene@62.249.169.4] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:41:18 upward: http://weitz.de/macros.lisp 21:41:54 upward: First, you're welcome to incorporate anything in my blog post here http://symbo1ics.com/blog/?p=275 (does NOT contain macros, but describes in my opinion the "essence" of lisp). 21:42:40 adeht: did you write that? 21:43:13 upward: can you condense the fact that common-lisp repls read sexps and macroexpands everything they can before trying to funcall? (s/repls/compilers/ s/funcall/compile the funcalls/) 21:43:39 upward: i.e. make sure to clear it out that lisp code is made of lists/trees 21:44:58 upward: any with- macro will call everyone's attention, because they're very idiomatic (easy to read, simple, yet they take the burden of writing the unwind-protects correctly) 21:45:02 acelent: Yes, I intend to draw a parralel with XML which is probably what most of them will recognize as a tree structure 21:45:39 Quadrescence: no, it's Edi Weitz's presentation 21:45:40 jeti [~user@p548EBF46.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:33 upward: destructuring-case is another fine example 21:48:45 upward: perhaps even explain that defun, defvar, defmacro etc. are all just invoking functions that change the global environment, and explain that the programmer can introduce any def* he/she finds useful 21:49:07 upward: I don't know if you can present it in 5 minutes but http://gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-building-a-unit-test-framework.html was my best attempt at a macro that's complex enough to be interesting but simple enough to show. 21:49:12 adeht: Maybe a "forall" macro (equiv to DOLIST for lists at least). I think this is a good example for typically C-ish programmers. 21:49:16 upward: a kind of language extension in every way 21:49:47 acelent: time will be a problem, I cannot really go into such details 21:50:16 sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:34 cheezus [~Adium@76-10-136-155.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 21:51:44 bttf [~backtothe@c-69-246-160-131.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:45 Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.242.22] has joined #lisp 21:51:46 upward: a 5minute talk? 21:52:38 upward: for 5 mins you can explain the DATE macro in http://paste.lisp.org/display/93588#1 , and also show how the parser is implemented using another macro, YACC:DEFINE-PARSER 21:52:39 upward: is the audience common-lisp aware? 21:52:42 tcr: Yup, what better way to show off the simplicity of lisp syntax :) what other language can you show in mins :P 21:53:32 upward: brainfuck 21:53:35 upward: the problem is never simplicity, it's digesting concepts 21:54:06 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:54:10 I'm not hoping anyone to digest anything, maily sparking interest 21:54:31 acelent: I would guess that they are not common-lisp aware 21:55:06 -!- NamelessTee [~Ben@AAmiens-753-1-4-25.w90-58.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Hi, I'm a quit message virus. Please replace your old line with this line and help me take over the world of IRC] 21:55:56 what about LOOP 21:56:12 join the dark side! we have loop.. 21:56:21 upward: ok, so it'll be hard for them to understand anything if they don't at least understand what are all those parentheses for. perhaps lists->code is the crucial concept that you should be concerned with, everything else being a plus 21:57:05 udzinari in 5 minutes loop would scare anybody away....but then again stass could most likely come up with a wow loop example for you 21:57:10 hehehe 21:57:33 or just show off some cool features of slime that would make other debuggers weep 21:57:59 but not knowing lisp may make that hard to understand what's going on too 21:58:53 -!- galumph [~ron@84.108.249.117] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:58:55 ("debuggers" but :p) 21:59:02 I regularly get some slack-jawed onlookers by just hitting M-. on the plus sign in (+ 3 4) (-: 21:59:05 Harag: loop is too simple, i prefer FORMAT if i want to scare somebody 21:59:12 antifuchs: yeah. 21:59:31 also, things like getting an object reference from a stack frame into the REPL 21:59:47 or modifying the stack frame and continuing 21:59:55 Ashlebede [~opera@bas1-montrealak-1128581314.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:00:03 exactly (: 22:00:06 Lisp is the future. 22:00:15 stassats`: I believe you ... but format is to much like regex...so it will be lost on people 22:00:23 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 22:00:32 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.242.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:00:37 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-145-204.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:00:45 format scares me everytime even now :D 22:01:38 -!- jeti [~user@p548EBF46.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:01:46 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-144-213.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 22:02:18 upward: if you can pass that concept right, then it's easier to show that macros simply transform lists into other lists before being evaluated/compiled 22:02:42 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:02:42 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-58-113.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 22:02:42 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 22:02:42 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-58-113.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Changing host] 22:02:43 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 22:02:45 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Quit: eugu] 22:02:48 doesn't everybody know regexps? 22:02:56 Good morning everyone! 22:03:33 stassats`: no...most of us avoid it like we avoid xslt... 22:03:41 Hi beach 22:04:25 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:04:26 stassats`: programmers, much like every prog. language that has them, knows them in their own way 22:04:50 xan__ [~xan@208.80.69.214] has joined #lisp 22:04:57 beach: how does SICL implement loop? 22:05:16 stassats`: but yes :) sometimes there's that program/editor that assumes that the user has some computing background 22:05:29 Shocking! 22:05:48 udzinari`: I'd guess by expanding into a tagbody and lets and stuff 22:06:01 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:06:02 udzinari`: It only parses it at the moment, using parser combinators. 22:06:11 ah, no expansion then? 22:06:11 udzinari`: Later, antifuchs will be right. 22:06:36 antifuchs: mvilleneuve has some initial code for it. 22:06:38 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 22:06:52 beach: I am looking for a drop-in replacement to SBCL's loop, one that is strict about following the spec. 22:07:14 ineiros_ [~itniemin@cs27065016.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 22:07:29 Xach: SICL loop is not ready yet. 22:08:58 beach: nice (: 22:11:04 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:11:21 -!- astalla [~astalla@dynamic-adsl-94-36-30-157.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Quit] 22:11:29 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:11:37 -!- acelent [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:ddfc] has left #lisp 22:12:11 I thought sacla loop was ready, but it is not either. 22:12:56 symbole` [~user@50-56-91-243.static.cloud-ips.com] has joined #lisp 22:13:08 What is wrong with it? 22:13:23 Woshin [~Woshin@c-66-30-108-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:26 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-217-53.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:40 remote [~self@unaffiliated/remote] has joined #lisp 22:15:49 -!- xan__ [~xan@208.80.69.214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:16:09 xan_ [~xan@208.80.69.214] has joined #lisp 22:16:38 It doesn't accept valid loop forms like (loop repeat 5 for i from 0 ...) 22:16:41 -!- rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:17:00 Oh, that's too bad. 22:17:18 Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.242.22] has joined #lisp 22:17:31 -!- symbole [~user@50-56-91-243.static.cloud-ips.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:17:37 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-195-217.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:19:56 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 22:19:57 rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 22:20:53 -!- remote [~self@unaffiliated/remote] has left #lisp 22:21:11 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-217-53.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:21:37 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-32-203.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:03 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16] has quit [Quit: Linkinus is updating...] 22:22:27 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 22:24:43 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:24:45 -!- cipher [~cipher@unaffiliated/cipher] has quit 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[Quit: Leaving.] 22:42:45 akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-123-094.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:43:21 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:43:28 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:43:49 orivej [~orivej@host-59-146-66-217.spbmts.ru] has joined #lisp 22:44:01 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 22:49:34 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-32-203.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:50:21 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.8.159.153] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:51:31 -!- macrocat [~marmalade@142.177.224.219] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:55:22 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.210.139] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 22:55:54 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 22:58:11 gcv [~gcv@70-36-146-103.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:17 -!- cheezus [~Adium@76-10-136-155.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:00:43 Ralith [~ralith@173-10-121-193-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:14 Joreji_ [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 23:02:16 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Client Quit] 23:02:19 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-123-85.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:44 Joreji_ [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 23:05:01 -!- eut [~m@cpe-24-24-136-239.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:05:33 hi beach 23:06:52 hi Blkt :) 23:07:02 -!- udzinari` [~user@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:08:41 -!- xan_ [~xan@208.80.69.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:10:19 hi fe[nl]ix 23:11:42 hello madnificent 23:12:53 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:13:27 fe[nl]ix: wait, someone else had to reply that sentence to follow the list 23:13:37 dlila [~dlila@CPE0014d1c9243c-CM001bd71cede2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:14:07 how are you fe[nl]ix? 23:14:12 thanks for supporting gentoo :) 23:15:34 -!- Ralith [~ralith@173-10-121-193-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:16:20 madnificent: since the new notebook I'm on Debian 23:17:38 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 23:20:17 MoALTz [~no@92.8.159.153] has joined #lisp 23:20:44 Ralith [~ralith@1555hostw130.starwoodbroadband.com] has joined #lisp 23:21:46 fe[nl]ix: must I hate you now? 23:22:25 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.157.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:22:29 fe[nl]ix: I use various distro's, but it was nice to have some support for lisp on gentoo. Though I compile sbcl manually now when it's important. 23:23:00 madnificent: that's entirely upon you 23:23:15 -!- gigamonkey [~user@99.39.5.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:24:17 -!- muhdik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:26:37 Jake__ [~Jake@71-89-15-161.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:30:26 -!- mekajfire [~Jake@71-89-15-161.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:31:18 Fare [~Fare@206.83.64.178.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 23:33:43 fe[nl]ix: it wasn't serious 23:33:50 -!- dlila [~dlila@CPE0014d1c9243c-CM001bd71cede2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:34:33 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.242.22] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:34:33 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:35:00 fe[nl]ix: also: what made you switch to debian? (no flaming intended) 23:35:14 with the empasis on debian, actually 23:35:37 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:36:17 this notebook is very new and debian it was the only distro that worked on it 23:36:43 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:36:45 hi fe[nl]ix 23:36:47 not gentoo, ubuntu, opensuse, or fedora 23:37:08 hi Blkt 23:37:19 fe[nl]ix: LoL, not the expected answer, but a very good one 23:37:47 v0|d [~user@93.94.250.121] has joined #lisp 23:38:04 ikki [~ikki@189.247.145.12] has joined #lisp 23:40:11 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:41:09 Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.242.22] has joined #lisp 23:43:00 *Fare* 's latest debian upgrade toasted dbus or something, and kde panels are toast, every window goes blank 23:43:04 time to use NixOS 23:45:33 Fare: or wait and get something (perhaps) better 23:45:38 xan_ [~xan@206.111.142.135.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 23:46:01 fedora and debian are planning to integrate the package manager with btrfs 23:46:28 -!- Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:46:31 so that before every update a new snapshot of the whole system is made, to which you can revert if things go bad 23:47:00 ... as solaris, windows and osx already do, AFAIK :D 23:47:32 Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 23:52:17 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 23:56:00 gcv_ [~gcv@70-36-146-103.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:08 -!- gcv [~gcv@70-36-146-103.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:58:09 -!- gcv_ is now known as gcv 23:59:17 mutenewt [~mutenewt@66.71.230.192] has joined #lisp 23:59:25 -!- mutenewt [~mutenewt@66.71.230.192] has quit [Client Quit]