18:51:15 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 18:51:15 18:51:15 -!- names: ccl-logbot codelurker Evious BlankVerse peddie billitch Onyxyte adobriyan kamikaza lanthan malbertife killerboy Fare mcsontos schme ramus gemelen Athas dstatyvka EarlGray jtza8 mattrepl systemaddict elb0w jewel waaaaargh emporas gravicappa christop` pnkfelix McMAGIC-- lifeng nyef mishoo__ lemoinem spilman ikki ehu gigamonkey realitygrill pmd HG` daniel__ albino kleppari koning_robot gffa Bronsa rdd bohanlon bgs100 JuanDaugherty sacho mippymoe myu2 rme 18:51:15 -!- names: milanj urandom__ bobbysmith007 dkasak tsuru TDT iwillig carlocci silenius juniorroy xinming_ stepnem muhdick rmarianski sellout azaq23 schaueho woudshoo serichsen jimmy1980 LiamH jweiss dlowe pen homie slash_ The_Fellow MoALTz_ Jasko sykopomp nikodemus morphling Krystof benny aoh cnl mathrick Spion_ davidmiller basho__ delYsid Salamander trigen dmiles_afk jamief rasterbar insomniaSalt Hun mrSpec c|mell slyrus z0d Taggnostr3 chr`` prip theBlackDragon tenawa 18:51:15 -!- names: naryl katesmith Modius nixfreak milkpost Yuuhi``` antgreen Buganini cmm Adamant borkamaniac CrazyEddy kennyd redline6561 setmeaway Landr La0fer araujo bzzbzz jcazevedo Fullma [df] madnificent seangrove sonnym lolsuper_ fihi09` abeaumont guther snorble_ peterhil HET2 cataska Phoodus kanru lonstein omgz0r sigjuice pjb skeptical_p marienz a7p lisppaste Yamazaki-kun euphidime Quadrescence s0ber thom_logn mornfall Nshag dRbiG twem2 herbie_ pok blackwolf 18:51:15 -!- names: SpitfireWP hugod DrForr hohum loke Jacke pchrist museun ntd` _3b easyE lichtblau lnostdal AntiSpamMeta kloeri erk zakwilson lianj_ beach pearle Guest52100 djinni` frodef pavlvs327 p_l|home ivan4th nowhere_man Euthydemus` _akimbo Patzy cmatei tritchey bozhidar Tristam ezakimak levi` mdavadriansmith cipher quasisane nome` rbancroft emma qsun guaqua Adrinael Fade deepfire jsnell faulevel fe[nl]ix froggey cods jabirali npoektop dcrawford churib Legooolas 18:51:15 -!- names: BrianRice ianmcorvidae meingbg |3b| Bucciarati larva eno Dodek ineiros yan_ kencausey amb007 Deltafire aidalgol hramrach_ Xantoz quotemstr vsync Zeiris joshe gnooth pp206 clog cYmen huehnts rsynnott ilmari arbscht ``Erik krappie__ tvaalen vert2 billstclair timjstewart tychoish seejay eli sid3k foom bfein rabite tomaw CallToPower oconnore derrotebaron Posterdati algorist tty234 rvncerr OliverUv egn mephistophocles qebab mon_key Pepe_ danlentz johanbev 18:51:15 -!- names: Jabberwockey Xach incandenza mal__ Kovensky Khisanth mpereira specbot colazero oGMo scode thijso strlen Obfuscate PissedNumlock df_aldur ASau` Ginei_Morioka jayne rotty cibs antifuchs Tordek dostoyevsky ve luis shachaf p_l|backup johs derrida minion joast cpt_nemo clop nuba _2x2l srcerer zbigniew freiksenet elliottcable tessier fmu krl jrockway pkhuong j_king galdor felipe zfx yahooooo adeht timchen1` k9quaint koollman Borbus tic ecraven cmbntr jeekl fds 18:51:15 -!- names: Aisling akkartik andreer phadthai hyko setheus simontwo_ ozzloy acieroid antoszka mtd nullman` ejohnson mgr housel PuffTheMagic Zhivago 18:52:22 thanks, I'll try also declare types 18:53:22 MoALTz__ [~no@92.18.28.33] has joined #lisp 18:56:12 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@92.18.28.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:56:22 tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has joined #lisp 18:58:35 rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 18:59:35 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:00:06 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-010-015.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:02:35 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.220] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:03:39 -!- codelurker [~codelurke@66.71.230.192] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 19:05:27 -!- naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:05:40 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:02 can anyone recommend a good book for learning the basics of opengl (for use with cl-opengl, of course)? 19:07:02 paradoja [~paradoja@acceso-cmp174-55.lpa.idec.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:40 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:09:21 <|3b|> i think there is an old version of the opengl red book online 19:10:01 <|3b|> not sure if learning old style opengl is a good way to start out these days or not though 19:10:11 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 19:11:25 any good recommendations if I were to buy one, rather than just looking online? 19:11:45 *|3b|* can't really help there 19:12:04 ok 19:12:15 <|3b|> pretty much the only ones i even know of existing are the red/orange/etc books, and opengl superbible 19:14:33 slyrus: i picked it up recently just going through a number of online tutorials/examples .. and i have a redbook on the bookshelf 19:15:03 it's a lot simpler than the redbook implies as i recall 19:16:25 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c234c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:55 hi 19:18:42 ok, thanks oGMo 19:19:24 -!- silenius [~silenus@p4FC22282.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:21:21 tag sbcl.1.0.47 does not seem to exist on git://sbcl.boinkor.net/sbcl.git 19:21:33 was there a change of policy? 19:21:55 *prxq* .oO(hm... #sbcl is over there ==>) 19:22:58 <|3b|> looks tagged to me 19:23:29 i grabbed that tag yesterday. worked fine. 19:23:55 I can see both 1.0.47 tags in the gitweb interface. 19:23:58 Fade: from git? 19:24:02 ??? 19:24:05 yeah 19:24:31 on branch master? from boinkor? 19:24:33 1.0.47: Will be tagged as 1_0.47 19:24:43 commit abd7e18d16d967df350d206d81bb2835c0b96cc1 19:24:59 The commit message is a little fractured, but the tags are right. 19:26:11 yes, automated another bit of the release process, badly 19:27:06 the message will be correct the next time around, and fixing commit messages in CVS is a pain 19:27:11 Oh well, maybe next time, right? 19:27:14 slash_1 [~unknown@pD955A803.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:59 -!- slash_ [~unknown@pD955FC06.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:28:11 sellout [~Adium@18.111.39.166] has joined #lisp 19:28:38 he'll have it just perfect by the time work suddenly takes up 150% of his time 19:29:07 Or just about when we switch system-of-record and invalidate about half of it. 19:29:30 error: pathspec 'sbcl.1.0.47' did not match any file(s) known to git. 19:31:07 git checkout sbcl.1.0.46 works as expected, though 19:31:35 i can see the commit tagging 1.0.47 but can't find the tag. 19:31:44 I suppose I can just checkout the commit, eh? 19:32:01 sbcl_1_0_47 19:32:24 <|3b|> works here 19:32:41 error: pathspec 'sbcl_1_0_47' did not match any file(s) known to git. 19:32:53 the commit id itself worked 19:33:15 (using "git checkout sbcl_1_0_47") 19:33:56 Both tags WFM on my local git tree. 19:35:35 nyef: ok so you are not using boinkor, right? 19:35:43 olivier [~olivier@dra38-2-82-233-106-39.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:23 *|3b|* is, and both tags work 19:36:25 "Your branch is ahead of 'origin/master' by 12 commits." WTF? 19:36:40 well, whatever. rm -rf and clone again 19:37:12 I'm using boinkor. 19:37:34 And I try to be careful about not screwing up branch master. 19:37:46 <|3b|> possibly you made some changes and merged by accident? 19:37:59 no way 19:38:37 prxq: not need to do that: reset --hard origin/master 19:38:37 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-51-60.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:38:47 fe[nl]ix: that did not work! 19:38:53 i tried it 19:39:08 <|3b|> tried looking at gitk --all and see if it looks normal? 19:40:01 too late. :-] 19:41:03 tag is here now alright. Strange. But whatever. Sorry for the noise, and thanks for the help. 19:42:46 dmytrish [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:56 -!- EarlGray [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:47:51 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-172-43.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:50:34 Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:52:47 gabnet [~gabnet@136.63.193-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:05 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:57:47 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 19:58:18 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.197.21] has joined #lisp 19:59:08 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-119-202.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:59:08 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 20:01:05 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip68-231-47-70.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:02:03 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-183-65.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:02:30 -!- algorist [~quassel@host127-230-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:02:38 tcr [~tcr@92.58.136.182] has joined #lisp 20:03:11 mon_key annotated #120964 "string-push-extend" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120964#1 20:03:46 algorist_ [~quassel@host127-230-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:04:07 mrSpec: thats my stab at setting a string in place. 20:05:01 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:07 <|3b|> not sure about the declaration on index, i can make longer strings than that here :) 20:05:34 -!- tcr [~tcr@92.58.136.182] has quit [Client Quit] 20:05:37 mon_key: what about using an adjustable vector for those strings, and using REPLACE? 20:05:46 <|3b|> if just FIXNUM is measurably slower, you could calculate from #.+most-positive-fixnum+ or somethin 20:06:06 mon_key: also, I'd call it string-insert-character, not vector-push-extend. 20:07:06 *|3b|* would use ASSERT rather than (or ... (error)) 20:07:24 |3b|: :) not a fan of assert myself. 20:07:32 <|3b|> well, WHEN then :) 20:08:09 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.220] has joined #lisp 20:08:30 pjb: I tried a variant :adjustable t :fill-pointer t but didn't know about replace :{ 20:08:55 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host217-174-dynamic.10-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:11:35 mcspiff [~user@DE30D.WPA.Dal.Ca] has joined #lisp 20:12:12 -!- Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:13:25 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-25.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:13:59 mrSpec annotated #120964 "2" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120964#2 20:14:05 mon_key: thanks, I've jus written something like this 20:14:11 s/jus/just/ 20:14:27 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 20:15:01 but I see your version is faster :) 20:15:13 -!- gabnet [~gabnet@136.63.193-77.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 20:16:09 gary-s [~gary@186.42.102.50] has joined #lisp 20:16:41 <|3b|> clhs make-string 20:16:41 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_stg.htm 20:17:40 <|3b|> also, 1+, and i'm not sure you should incf a loop iteration variable 20:18:28 mon_key annotated #120964 "string-insert-char with when :)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120964#3 20:18:44 <|3b|> and that COND in the loop is probably a bad idea, split it into 3 steps (and use REPLACE instead of a loop anyway) 20:20:22 *|3b|* would replace some (= ... 0) with ZEROP in #3 20:20:37 |3b|: ok, thanks :) 20:20:38 |3b|: yeah just saw that :) 20:20:47 <|3b|> and replace the loops with REPLACE 20:21:03 <|3b|> (at least i assume that is what they do) 20:21:29 -!- gary-s [~gary@186.42.102.50] has quit [Quit: gary-s] 20:21:39 -!- olivier [~olivier@dra38-2-82-233-106-39.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 20:21:43 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.214.177] has joined #lisp 20:23:16 symbole [~user@50-56-91-243.static.cloud-ips.com] has joined #lisp 20:23:55 |3b|: Is not replace slightly less safe than the loops? 20:24:10 mon_key: I've afraid there is something wrong with your function, after simply "copy-paste" it into my program I got wrong results 20:24:43 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@92.18.28.33] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:25:08 <|3b|> mon_key: don't see why it would be, if used properly 20:26:44 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:27:57 _3b annotated #120964 "another" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120964#4 20:29:21 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.197.21] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 20:29:22 mrSpec: I shouldn't have changed the or and error form to when. 20:31:17 |3b|: looks nicer than loop version :) 20:34:23 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:35:54 fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-171-32.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 20:39:26 _3b annotated #120964 "faster (on sbcl at least)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120964#5 20:40:06 |3b|: gettin rid of those compiler notes huh? :) 20:40:27 <|3b|> something like that 20:41:12 <|3b|> they are still there since i was too lazy to figure out if there are other types of strings, but at least it has fast code for common cases 20:41:22 I'm building a comparison suite now :) 20:41:46 _8david [~user@46.115.19.150] has joined #lisp 20:43:31 -!- lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-17-116.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:43:34 <|3b|> interestingly, just declarations on the original was enough to make it faster than my first version, 2nd is still fastest though 20:43:42 silenius [~silenus@p4FC22D1B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:01 <|3b|> string-insert-char is almost as fast 20:45:19 with or without optimize? 20:45:50 <|3b|> annotation 3 is almost as fast as annotation 5 20:46:08 |3b|: The other type of string is (ARRAY NIL (*)). 20:46:24 3 is borken 20:46:37 <|3b|> yeah, 3 with WHEN replaced by UNLESS 20:46:50 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.197.21] has joined #lisp 20:48:51 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:48:54 *|3b|* has #5 at ~1.2 sec, #3 at ~1.6, original with declarations at ~3, #4 at ~4, original without declarations at 8sec, adding a char to the same 7char string 10000000 times 20:49:18 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-171-32.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:50:30 hrmmph :) 20:50:37 <|3b|> and ~7 for annotation #2 20:50:42 artifact [~pyrrhic@c-24-60-190-97.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:43 -!- slash_1 [~unknown@pD955A803.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:52:20 -!- basho__ [~basho__@dslb-178-003-003-074.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:54:08 naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has joined #lisp 20:55:15 <|3b|> don't seem to all scale the same way with length of string though 20:55:30 tcr [~tcr@92.58.136.182] has joined #lisp 20:55:43 |3b|: Yeah. what I'm thinking. 20:56:12 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 20:56:41 What is the difference between #'(lambda ...) and (lambda ...)? They evaluate to the same thing, so why do I see so many #'s? 20:56:59 I understand they're necessary for symbols, etc. 20:57:04 but why for the lambda expression 20:57:10 <|3b|> they do the same thing in different ways 20:57:10 panike [~nwp@fw.lmcg.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 20:57:40 <|3b|> the macro LAMBDA wasn't added until late in the creation of the ansi CL spec, so older code tends to use #' 20:57:42 artifact: http://trittweiler.blogspot.com/2008/12/on-relationship-of-lambda-and-lambda.html 20:57:59 <|3b|> some people still use it due to habit or just preferring the style 20:58:12 thanks. I'll read the linky. 21:00:01 ouch, did I really type "linky" 21:00:34 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:01:43 mephisto [~mephisto@dyn-166.pool2.cable.TORON12.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 21:01:44 Actually, AIUI, the macro LAMBDA was -removed- early in the specification process, and re-added much later. 21:01:54 -!- mephisto [~mephisto@dyn-166.pool2.cable.TORON12.iasl.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:02:00 mephisto [~mephisto@dyn-166.pool2.cable.TORON12.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 21:02:37 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:04:20 <|3b|> with longer string (~550 char) looks like orig+declarations improves a bit, #5 stays in lead, and rest fall behind 21:04:45 *|3b|* didn't test very coherently though 21:05:20 |3b|: makes sense because replace doesn't have to iter 21:05:59 <|3b|> it does, it just might have fast ways to iterate if it know the types 21:07:03 <|3b|> same way original with declarations can do things quickly, but has to make an extra copy, which fits with it taking about 2x as long with long strings 21:07:29 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:07:58 <|3b|> in the others, the extra conditionals in the loop probably start to matter more on long strings 21:08:18 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:28 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:08:45 gary-s [~gary@186.42.102.50] has joined #lisp 21:08:51 -!- panike [~nwp@fw.lmcg.wisc.edu] has left #lisp 21:09:35 <|3b|> or the less-than-optimal copying in #4 21:10:26 -!- HG` [~HG@dslb-188-109-170-222.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: HG`] 21:10:52 |3b|: sans the inlined flet? 21:11:34 (quit Good night!) 21:11:35 <|3b|> right 21:11:37 arf 21:11:41 -!- serichsen [~user@switch1.elmi.uni-bonn.de] has quit [Quit: Good night!] 21:11:47 Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 21:11:47 -!- sellout [~Adium@18.111.39.166] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:12:31 -!- gary-s [~gary@186.42.102.50] has quit [Client Quit] 21:13:48 hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 21:13:53 -!- _8david [~user@46.115.19.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:14:41 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:16:24 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:18:26 process [nick@subtlepath.org] has joined #lisp 21:19:25 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c234c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:19:38 -!- adobriyan [~ad@vulture2-nat-42.telecom.by] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:22:56 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7565b1.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:23:24 -!- milanj [~milanj_@178-223-172-123.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:27:42 -!- Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:31:30 dmiles [~dmiles@75-175-97-201.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:16 dmiles_akf [~dmiles@75-175-97-201.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:36 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-97-201.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:35:37 So, it just occurred to me that CLIM input-editing is actually a special case of a modal dialog box. 21:35:43 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@75-175-97-201.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:35:49 adobriyan [~ad@vulture2-nat-42.telecom.by] has joined #lisp 21:36:09 -!- dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-103-204.xnet.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:36:29 Pretty much the same control-flow implications, but it's still in the same window so interaction with various things in the window still works. 21:36:44 dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-103-204.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 21:37:43 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A4B9C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:38:06 nyef: "modal dialog box" like when spectacl prompts for an image file? 21:38:09 *|3b|* wonders if all this CLIM stuff is ready for the new world of multiple input devices, touch input, etc 21:38:24 mon_key: Something like that. 21:39:35 |3b|: Judging by the specification, it's not ready for the new world of actual implementation, let alone specific host environment features. 21:39:48 <|3b|> heh 21:39:55 (Then again, the specification clearly wasn't intended for implementation: They already had one.) 21:40:11 they being? 21:40:14 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 21:40:20 The specification authors. 21:40:23 :) 21:43:53 mon_key: Anyway, "modal dialog box", like when Internet Explorer asks where you want to store your downloaded pr0n. 21:44:53 nyef: indeed. but IE lets me "yank" :) a clipboard selection... can't figure out how to do that with Clim... 21:45:54 Clipboards aren't portable... Or something. 21:49:05 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:49:11 schoppenhauer [~christoph@ppp-88-217-87-125.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 21:49:15 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@ppp-88-217-87-125.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Changing host] 21:49:15 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:49:30 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Client Quit] 21:52:15 I don't really see the advantage of using CLIM over, say, GTK. 21:52:24 -!- kamikaza [~kamikaza@79.126.175.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:52:53 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:53:45 quotemstr: ... then don't? 21:53:53 Check. 21:53:54 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:54:03 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:54:09 I just don't understand why CLIM still gets attention while toolkits of similar vintage, like Motif, don't. 21:55:16 The main thing that CLIM "brings to the party", as it were, is the stream-based/command-prompt UI metaphor, along with the various clever things that operate on that basis such as presentations. 21:56:50 nyef: you forgot presentations ;] 21:57:00 er, :). dang keyboard layout switching. 21:57:02 what are the implementations of clim? cliki says McCLIM. Is that it? 21:57:06 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 21:57:13 kpreid: What was the last word in my last sentence? 21:57:17 oops. 21:57:32 Motif is a fairly ugly toolkit that follows the traditional UI toolkit model, and is thus eminently forgettable. 21:58:01 <|3b|> there is also the whole 'implemented in lisp' thing, which makes it more interesting to lisp programmers than old C ui toolkits 21:58:14 artifact: Well, there's CLIM, the original version. There's probably a few vendor-specific derivatives thereof. And there's McCLIM. And there's not much else. 21:58:16 IMO, presentations are the most valuable *idea* in clim, and the rest is, m, more questionable 21:58:51 kpreid: Except that they're "just" model-view-controller until such time as you have stream input. 21:58:55 |3b|: That alone is enough really, just the thought of writing bindings for gtk and friends.. 21:59:04 nyef: no, not just mvc 21:59:45 ... not seeing it? 21:59:52 nyef: the difference is that there is a systemwide notion of that this UI entity/graphic denotes this model/application object 22:00:02 as opposed to it being done on an ad-hoc basis 22:00:17 that allows you to have things like the picking objects by clicking on presentations 22:00:21 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:00:24 "McCLIM" is not far from the worst name possible. At least in the U.S. prefixing, "Mc" on something connotes cheap, tasteless, tawdry. 22:00:33 Spion__ [~spion@77.29.250.6] has joined #lisp 22:00:33 ... that boils down to "active objects", though? 22:00:45 nyef: the fact that it's done as a generalization of input/output streams is separable 22:00:55 I don't know what you mean by '"active objects"' 22:01:50 I'm not sure myself, anymore. 22:01:59 artifact: What do you have to say about "gimp" then? :) 22:02:18 drdo: "neat masks"? 22:02:39 (Let's not go any farther in that direction.) 22:03:03 Is McCLIM in a useable state? 22:03:26 nyef: in mvc as it's done in most of the ui frameworks I know of, you have a model object and a controller which establishes the interaction with a view, but there is no aspect of the user interface which is affected by what the actual model object is except by the controller's glue 22:03:58 kpreid: Okay, that's fair. 22:04:06 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:04:40 so every time you have a ui element which denotes, say, a file, it's done ad-hoc to fit the current requirements for looks and behavior 22:06:49 -!- p_l|home [~pl@213.5.11.129] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:08:07 I think that (ignoring development costs) you could shove the presentation idea into modern UI frameworks and UI designs (i.e. user expectations) and it would fit in nicely and save a lot of programmer dev time and user learning time. not so much the rest of clim. 22:08:39 anyway, I'll shut up now :) 22:09:18 Quite possibly. And the stream thing wouldn't take much more in terms of shoving, but might bend a few user's minds. 22:09:45 well, I think the stream thing is Wrong, myself. 22:09:49 (I'm actually considering this as an approach for my own UI stuff.) 22:09:56 It's not entirely wrong. 22:10:21 Maybe we should have this discussion with beach and slyrus as well? 22:11:13 uis should approach being (perceived as) direct manipulation of the domain objects (or of abstracted operations on groups of domain objects, i.e. functions/subroutines presented in an appropriate way); the stream concept is too imperative-and-single-thread-of-control-flow to be good for that 22:11:41 (on the other hand, if you're going to interview the user (c.f. wizards), then maybe the stream concept has a place there 22:11:44 ) 22:11:47 -!- symbole [~user@50-56-91-243.static.cloud-ips.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:12:25 -!- silenius [~silenus@p4FC22D1B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:14:37 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 22:15:02 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-71-46.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 22:16:18 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:16:22 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.255.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:16:37 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:17:52 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:17:58 -!- christop` [~user@oteiza.siccegge.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:18:23 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:20:43 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-71-46.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:21:29 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:24:31 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:24:44 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-71-46.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 22:25:22 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:25:44 rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 22:26:37 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:27:59 Can I find out where a symbol is defined, short of looking through source? 22:28:21 M-. ? 22:30:16 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:32:17 Why can &environment appear anywhere in a lambda list? 22:32:56 quotemstr: That's a "have you stopped beating your wife yet?" question. 22:33:09 it seems that slime defines the "test" symbol somewhere, which conflicts with fiveam. 22:33:20 quotemstr: Do you mean an ordinary lambda list? 22:33:22 There's no exported "test" function. 22:33:58 Macro lambda-list. 22:33:59 artifact: its interned in the current package? thought slime was pretty good about staying out of that 22:34:21 According to section 3.4.4 of the CLHS, environment can appear practically anywhere. 22:34:45 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 22:34:57 quotemstr: It does not match any actual argument in the argument list, so it has no natural location... 22:34:59 &whole, OTOH, can appear only once, at the beginning of a list of sublist. 22:35:06 s/list of sublist/list or sublist/. 22:35:08 quotemstr: Interesting, maybe to do otherwise would break an important application. 22:35:27 I'd have expected either an arbitrary position for both or a fixed position for both. 22:35:39 I can understand the implementation win for &whole being at the start though. 22:35:55 &whole is related to a specific (sub)list, though 22:36:01 whereas &environment is not 22:36:15 Fair enough. 22:36:44 I'm not saying this is The Right Thing, just that it's not completely bizarre 22:37:44 (if I were specifying lambda lists, I would have cut down a lot on the &magic and added more uniform structure to make partial-knowledge parsing easier...) 22:37:49 *mcspiff* 's plan to shoe-string his code into cl-who is not going nearly as smoothly as he had hoped... 22:38:19 *kpreid* hands mcspiff a shoehorn, suggesting that it will be more practical than the string 22:38:35 there is nothing practical about this ;-) 22:39:07 kpreid: There are simply too many keywords, that's all. Just cut a few and it will be perfect? Which few did you have in mind? 22:40:03 Love reading Weitz's code though. always very clean, clear it seems like. 22:40:12 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.12.65] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:41:17 -!- mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:41:22 drdo` [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 22:42:15 brown [~user@nat/google/x-xlsqvgpsvfgwnzxs] has joined #lisp 22:42:22 -!- brown is now known as reb 22:43:40 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:45:13 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:49:39 simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:49:39 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 22:49:39 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 22:51:51 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-175-056.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 22:53:00 -!- systemaddict [~anonymous@208.74.177.139.static.etheric.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:53:56 mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has joined #lisp 22:53:57 systemaddict [~anonymous@208.74.177.139.static.etheric.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:22 -!- Fare [~Fare@63.115.78.49] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:56:45 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-168-65.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:56:49 dlila [~dlila@CPE0014d1c9243c-CM001bd71cede2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:09 -!- mcspiff [~user@DE30D.WPA.Dal.Ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:57:14 mcspiff [~user@DE30D.WPA.Dal.Ca] has joined #lisp 22:57:30 hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.121.111] has joined #lisp 23:00:00 -!- bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has left #lisp 23:01:55 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-172-124.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 23:04:01 youguy [~youguy@157.pool85-56-97.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 23:04:39 |3b|: I'm getting comparable times for shorter strings 16 chars or less.. 23:06:05 iwillig [~ivan@rrcs-24-103-24-162.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:06:10 -!- Yuuhi``` [benni@p54839C83.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:06:18 Mococa [~Mococa@187.59.135.74] has joined #lisp 23:06:20 Yuuhi``` [benni@p54839C83.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:05 -!- youguy [~youguy@157.pool85-56-97.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:13:00 -!- tsuru [~charlie@adsl-87-47-213.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:14:18 -!- adobriyan [~ad@vulture2-nat-42.telecom.by] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:17:33 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.59.135.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:18:42 zawart [~zawart@bal165.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 23:22:35 -!- artifact [~pyrrhic@c-24-60-190-97.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:33:41 Mococa [~Mococa@187.59.135.74] has joined #lisp 23:40:46 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-241.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:46:40 there should be an image splitter within wxmaxima 23:46:49 hrmmmmm 23:48:06 -!- mcspiff [~user@DE30D.WPA.Dal.Ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:50:11 kamikaza [~kamikaza@92.53.53.228] has joined #lisp 23:55:49 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-181-199.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:56:01 jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has joined #lisp 23:56:11 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 23:57:12 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.197.96] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 23:57:21 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:57:23 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-71-46.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:58:34 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:59:43 -!- iwillig [~ivan@rrcs-24-103-24-162.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving]