00:00:16 -!- chrisvj [ad11762b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.17.118.43] has left #lisp 00:00:53 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@bb116-14-191-157.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:02:55 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:03:25 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 00:04:02 Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 00:04:47 -!- waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-5d87f758.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:07:16 -!- koning_robot [~user@s5597d50c.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:09:20 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:09:47 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 00:09:55 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@177.16.252.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:12:16 paul0 [~user@187.112.66.168] has joined #lisp 00:15:52 -!- schell [~schellsci@70-36-199-232.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:16:14 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:17:51 -!- paul0 [~user@187.112.66.168] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:18:04 paul0 [~user@187.112.66.168] has joined #lisp 00:20:36 longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has joined #lisp 00:21:36 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-175-170.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:21:53 enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-76-171-245-75.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:22:52 Ansego_ [~Ansego@180.181.83.93] has joined #lisp 00:25:31 -!- Ansego [~Ansego@180.181.83.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:27:35 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:28:47 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-232-52-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:31:45 -!- jweiss [~user@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:31:46 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 00:36:55 Sprayzor [~The@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 00:37:05 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 00:37:27 -!- Sprayzor [~The@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has left #lisp 00:43:00 lifeng [~lifeng@155.69.43.70] has joined #lisp 00:44:07 waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-5d87f758.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:51 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-159-135.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:47:02 tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.102.125] has joined #lisp 00:47:04 superflit [~superflit@adsl-99-95-59-97.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:07 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:54:22 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.121.111] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 00:56:09 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-232-52-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:56:19 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Quit: eugu] 00:56:54 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 00:57:23 schell [~schellsci@c-76-103-111-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:58:08 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:59:48 Mococa [~Mococa@177.16.252.140] has joined #lisp 01:00:30 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has quit [Quit: bye] 01:01:46 keyvan [~keyvan@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:08:53 -!- Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:17:55 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 01:22:11 cheezus [~Adium@76-10-163-32.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 01:26:58 cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.139.95.133] has joined #lisp 01:27:20 does anyone know if i have to delete clsql before getting clsql-fluid? 01:27:33 i got clsql with quicklisp 01:28:38 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:33:03 What are the consequences of guessing wrong? 01:34:27 hrm... looks like two problems with single-threaded builds, sb-introspect fails (and sometime after .40) the build fails... 01:35:51 So, a nikodemus special? 01:37:31 (Heck, if it works as of 1.0.46.34, it's definitely nikodemus.) 01:38:21 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 01:39:23 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:40:16 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-120-99.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:41:02 hm, clisp give me an error, but slime didn't say where is the line of this error 01:41:42 Move the cursor down to the debugger frame for the erring function and press 'v'? 01:43:32 how do I clear quicklisp cache? :p 01:44:16 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:44:33 cesarbp: If you're on a unixoid system, have a look in ~/.cache, and remember the existence of rm -rf. 01:44:49 i have a windows 01:45:31 -!- danieljones [~danieljon@qld13-adsl-181.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:45:39 -!- longshot [~longshot@180.184.8.3] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:45:54 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:46:01 longshot [~longshot@216.131.74.24] has joined #lisp 01:46:03 Umm... good luck? 01:46:13 :( 01:46:52 Try compiling an ASDF system, and watch for where it puts the FASLs? 01:51:34 chxane [~chxane@c-76-124-17-190.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:53:39 redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:47 -!- cheezus [~Adium@76-10-163-32.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:00:19 joshe [~joshe@opal.elsasser.org] has joined #lisp 02:00:24 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.102.125] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 02:03:12 -!- Hunden [~Hunden@p5B1072EC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:10:09 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.215.83] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 02:17:06 -!- dlila [~dlila@CPE0014d1c9243c-CM001bd71cede2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:19:48 bleh 02:19:51 i give up 02:20:00 clsql-mysql will never work 02:20:38 tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:23:55 Yuuhi` [benni@p5483C0EE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:25:43 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483C7F0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:29:04 jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has joined #lisp 02:35:40 tt [~tt@c-76-116-68-192.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:44 -!- tt [~tt@c-76-116-68-192.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:45:00 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:48:34 -!- fihi09 [~user@pool-96-224-47-137.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:48:49 fihi09 [~user@pool-96-224-47-137.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:51:14 -!- waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-5d87f758.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:51:53 cheezus [~Adium@76-10-163-32.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 02:54:41 -!- splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:04:32 -!- superflit [~superflit@adsl-99-95-59-97.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: superflit] 03:05:19 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:10:09 fantazo_ [~fantazo@178-191-175-24.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 03:10:20 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:10:34 m4dnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 03:10:48 hm, I still couldn't figure out what's wrong with my code 03:11:51 https://gist.github.com/884485 03:12:58 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-112-241.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:13:32 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-170-178.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:14:01 paul0: What's the problem? 03:14:16 "MAKE-ARRAY: NIL is of incorrect length" 03:14:40 but I don't know when it is called with the wrong parameters 03:15:04 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-232-52-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:15 paul0: How did you call make-array? 03:15:36 it is called in the board-array function 03:15:47 this code is from Land of Lisp, Dice of Doom game 03:15:58 sure, but what arguments was it called with? 03:16:08 Check it out in the backtrace 03:16:17 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-232-52-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:16:18 on the slime debugger window 03:16:57 not sure, "[476] APPLY frame for call (BOARD-ARRAY 'NIL)" 03:17:07 I'm not familiar with slime/clisp errors 03:17:44 well there you go then 03:17:58 initial-contents nil is not valid for an array of that size 03:18:56 now check where board-array was called from and why it was called with nil, etc.. 03:19:11 df213 [df213@116.253.158.149] has joined #lisp 03:19:53 it is called in board-attack and add-new-dice functions 03:20:09 but they don't pass nil directly to it 03:20:30 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 03:20:41 -!- Raykon [~user@bl8-14-170.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:21:25 hm... cool 03:21:44 found that slime debbuger shows the variables values at some points of the execution 03:22:23 ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 03:24:15 I suspect there is something wrong with add-new-dice function, since it seems to be the last function to be called before board-array 03:27:07 gadek [~konrad@62.121.148.46] has joined #lisp 03:28:12 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-shpkvtfalzhabjdl] has joined #lisp 03:28:12 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-shpkvtfalzhabjdl] has quit [Changing host] 03:28:13 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 03:29:58 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:51 Jubb [~ghost@c-98-204-160-127.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:32:52 -!- chxane [~chxane@c-76-124-17-190.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:33:12 rootlocus [~rootlocus@research-remote.nicta.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:41:46 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:43:33 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:43:53 SidH__ [~SidH_@203.101.61.10] has joined #lisp 03:47:13 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-170-126.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:47:38 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-224.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:48:34 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:48:44 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:52:26 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@177.16.252.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:52:32 leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has joined #lisp 03:55:50 Good morning everyone! 03:56:36 hey beach! 03:56:41 how's being back in bx? 03:56:59 cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.78] has joined #lisp 03:57:07 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.78] has quit [Changing host] 03:57:07 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 03:57:34 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 04:02:04 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-120-99.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:02:39 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-120-99.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:05:15 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:05:17 -!- gadek [~konrad@62.121.148.46] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 04:08:41 -!- Jubb [~ghost@c-98-204-160-127.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:09:32 Mococa [~Mococa@177.16.252.140] has joined #lisp 04:11:15 slyrus: Fine. How are you doing? 04:11:24 [very busy though] 04:20:50 whoa, I've finally fixed my code 04:21:37 beach: well, thank you. are you back in bx for a visit of semi-permanently? 04:22:09 slyrus: Visit. I go back to VN for another 3-month period on April 2. 04:22:31 ah, cool (or hot as I assume it will get soon). 04:23:09 In HCM? Yeah, but the rains should start as well soon. 04:23:09 you, nyef and I should chat about clim-replacement stuff when you're not as busy 04:23:24 slyrus: Now is a good time for me. 04:24:15 we all have different gripes with clim, but I think it's clear that the current state of things is pretty inadequate 04:24:35 I ran into troubles trying to use anything other than a clim-stream-pane for drawing for spectacle 04:24:43 which brings in a bunch of baggage one shouldn't need 04:25:18 I agree that the current state is not so good. 04:25:18 check out spectacle when you get a chance, if you haven't yet. I'm pretty pleased with the basic concept/performance, but I think there's a lot of room for improvement. 04:26:25 I will check it out. 04:28:01 Do you already have ideas wrt the discussion you referred to? 04:29:33 nyef had some ideas about event handling and what not, i'd like to see something cleaner/simpler with a more layered approach than the current clim spec/implementations. 04:30:09 I can agree with that. Are nyef's ideas in the logs? 04:30:24 some reference to them is, yes 04:30:40 I'm sure he's got more thoughts than what he mentioned, but he's probably asleep now 04:30:43 That is a subject that I have been trying to sort out in my mind lately. 04:31:05 That's a bit early for him to go to sleep. 04:31:08 -!- Zeiris [~Zeiris@S010600a0d1423e73.no.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:31:40 Zeiris [~Zeiris@S010600a0d1423e73.no.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:31:43 Did you digest his ideas well enough to summarize them to us? 04:31:48 what/where is spectacle? cliki.net and common-lisp.net don't seem to have anything on it 04:32:46 phadthai: https://github.com/slyrus/spectacle 04:32:51 thanks slyrus 04:32:59 np, hope you like it 04:36:35 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:38:38 hmm btw I just remembered reading about DECLARATIONS, but wondered if there was a standard way to access custom declaration values in the current scope... so far I didn't see anything about this in the HyperSpec though 04:38:46 anyone know a way that a particular implementation allows this? 04:39:28 cltl2 provides this via variable-information 04:39:52 many implementations provide this via vendor-specific extensions, e.g. the sb-cltl2 package 04:40:09 thanks, I'll look into those 04:40:29 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:40:31 that's actually one of the neat things I found that made it possible for a nice clean API for opticl -- the image processing library behind spectacle 04:40:38 slyrus: Can you give me a reference to the Tunes log where nyef discusses his ideas? 04:41:11 minion: logs 04:41:11 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 04:41:41 slyrus: I have the logs, but grep nyef 11* | grep -i clim doesn't give much. 04:42:41 beach: heh, tunes seems to have come back online right after that discussion :) 04:42:55 Oh! 04:43:10 beach: start here: http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/2011-03/lisp-2011.03.23.txt 04:43:21 I guess that with a custom macro using a custom environment it'd be possible to provide similar functionality, but if the declare/proclaim/declaim standard names can be used already with custom variables defined via Definitions, then it seems cleaner to me 04:44:07 beach: around 19:11:43 he gets into some detail 04:44:17 phadthai: yes, exactly 04:48:46 slyrus: That's pretty heavy stuff. I shall have to read it several times, or have nyef explain it to me. 04:49:02 as is often the case from nyef :) 04:49:11 I'd go with the latter 04:49:38 Sure! It wouldn't hurt though to think it through a bit as well. 04:51:00 slyrus: Now CLIM II is a layered specification, so it seems possible to redesign some of the layers independently from others. It would be great if someone like nyef could be charged with the input part. 04:51:19 wait, CLIM II or CLIM3? 04:51:53 slyrus: CLIM II. I am saying, one way to obtain CLIM3 is by incrementally improving CLIM II. 04:51:57 is mcclim a CLIM II? 04:52:02 Yes. 04:52:36 Ok. That may be. There are problems with both the spec and the implementation, and it's important to know when we're dealing with one or the other. 04:52:56 I definitely agree with that. 04:53:33 And the lines are not sharp because the CLIM II spec is not as detailed as (say) the CLHS. 04:54:52 tymn [~kvirc@cpe-066-057-068-141.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:56:17 In this day and age (when where the line between vendors/programmers/users is more blurred) I think a solid (open source) implementation takes on an increased importance relative to fully fleshed-out abstract spec 04:56:25 s/when// 04:57:31 slyrus: But such an implementation must be somewhat stable, so a spec can be derived from it, and probably should. 04:57:51 ... so as to allow users to distinguish essentials from accidentals. 04:58:08 splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 04:58:23 fair enough 04:58:51 slyrus: And I suspect that's the way the CLIM II spec was written. 04:58:59 but if I had to choose between an (open source) implementation and a spec, I'd go for the implementation 04:59:42 One would hope such a tough choice would not have to be made. 05:01:29 again, agreed 05:01:48 -!- Ansego_ is now known as Ansego 05:02:06 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-wfmysvraxxhftxbm] has joined #lisp 05:03:34 Deathaholic [~Mococa@177.16.255.196] has joined #lisp 05:03:35 OK [reading nyef's remarks] why would interthread marshalling make interactive response suffer? 05:03:35 -!- paul0 [~user@187.112.66.168] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:03:59 paul0 [~user@187.112.66.168] has joined #lisp 05:04:02 ... and how can this problem be solved? 05:07:04 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@177.16.252.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:07:27 slyrus: Thanks for pointing out these remarks to me. While it is clear that nyef knows much more than I do about this, those remarks reflect very precisesly the questions I have been asking myself for the past few weeks. 05:07:28 -!- df213 [df213@116.253.158.149] has quit [] 05:08:11 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:08:47 -!- cheezus [~Adium@76-10-163-32.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:09:21 your welcome; thanks for thinking about these issues! It's encouraging that the two of you are at least thinking about the same problems. 05:10:01 -!- silentbicycle [~scott@99-55-246-143.lightspeed.gdrpmi.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 05:10:46 Indeed. I was trying to sort out what happens when an application has several threads and how to receive events in one application that would normally be meant for a different one. 05:11:06 -!- tymn [~kvirc@cpe-066-057-068-141.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:11:23 And that involves precisely defining what an application is, which leads exactly to the questions nyef is asking. 05:11:32 Don't they put events into the command queue? 05:11:55 Zhivago: Command queue? 05:12:25 I forget what they call it in CLIM. 05:12:56 Whatever the command loop reads from. 05:13:17 Zhivago: Some events are handled directly by the event dispatch thread and some are queued for later processing by the application thread. 05:14:18 That sounds like it might be the problem. :) 05:14:33 Zhivago: The decision is made on a per-sheet basis, but the spec is not precise as to which kinds of sheets do what. 05:15:02 Queueing them all would establish an order and responsibility. 05:15:20 Latency is probably less of an issue than it was in the dark ages. 05:15:35 JuniorRoy [~Work@ns.nkmk.ru] has joined #lisp 05:15:49 That would have been my thought as well, but nyef seems worried about performance. 05:16:42 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-120-99.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:13 -!- rootlocus [~rootlocus@research-remote.nicta.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:17:31 danieljones [~danieljon@qld13-adsl-181.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 05:17:52 -!- paul0 [~user@187.112.66.168] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:19:59 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-120-99.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:20:04 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 05:21:11 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.139.95.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:25:56 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-76-171-245-75.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 05:28:51 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:38:42 Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.228.26.34] has joined #lisp 05:43:44 -!- longshot is now known as TheRealLongshot 05:44:58 ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 05:51:36 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 05:51:39 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 05:52:12 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 05:52:40 -!- Deathaholic [~Mococa@177.16.255.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:53:51 Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 05:55:02 basho__ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-059-085.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 05:55:45 -!- basho__ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-059-085.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:55:51 basho__ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-059-085.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 05:56:52 -!- systemaddict [~anonymous@adsl-75-18-165-3.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: systemaddict] 05:57:51 -!- leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 06:01:02 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 06:03:54 morning lispers 06:04:47 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-xbwhxwsxrwsbhubw] has joined #lisp 06:07:28 morning kiuma 06:07:46 -!- basho__ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-059-085.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:09:20 BrianRice` [~water@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:10:54 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:16:52 morning slyrus kiuma 06:17:15 but it's noon 4 me ) 06:19:01 -!- BrianRice` [~water@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 06:19:13 what're your steps in cl learning? 06:20:16 read a book, write some code, re-read, write more code, read another book, write lots more code 06:21:00 oh, and "read code other people have written" 06:23:00 i see, steps are similar to other lang ) 06:25:02 yep 06:25:03 pldtoptx [~pldtoptx@112.210.229.187] has joined #lisp 06:25:57 but maybe exist some unique 4 lisp, lispers & lisp culture 06:26:05 the only thing to take care with (same as other languages...) is to make sure you don't make false assumptions based on those other languages 06:26:21 -!- pldtoptx [~pldtoptx@112.210.229.187] has left #lisp 06:27:26 like not reading what DEFVAR actually does because you instinctively go "i get it, it defines a variable. next!" --- because then you'll later be confused why things don't work the way you expect 06:27:43 also: respect the coding conventions, and use a good editor 06:28:34 good: knows how to autoindent lisp code, has an embedded repl, inspector, and debugger 06:29:44 emacs+slime+sbcl(cmucl, openMCL ...)? 06:29:55 if you're using one of the free implementations, that means emacs+slime, yes 06:35:43 what differents between mswin+emacs+slime+sbcl and *nix+emacs+slime+sbcl if they exist? 06:36:17 i use both at work and at home 06:37:02 *differences 06:38:26 ephcon [~user@student166-168.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 06:39:24 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has joined #lisp 06:39:49 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:39:59 sbcl on windows is much more immature 06:40:26 on linux (and most unixes) it's quite mature 06:40:56 but! there's a whole bunch of stuff not yet merged to mainline for windows 06:42:07 here: https://github.com/akovalenko/sbcl-win32-threads/wiki 06:42:16 critical stuff? 06:42:42 oh, thanx 06:43:30 no threads in sbcl/win32 mainline, lots of unix-based assumptions still baked in. anton's work above makes things a lot better 06:44:54 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-105-118-12.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 06:45:01 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-25.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:46:26 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:47:56 nikodemus: you tell about write your own code. i have an idea to synchronize directories through smb(cifs), but what to do with it implementation for mswin? how can i pass authorization and copy files from remote pc in AD? 06:48:57 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 06:49:42 i know next to nothing about that stuff 06:50:41 ephcon` [~user@student166-168.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 06:51:23 -!- ephcon [~user@student166-168.hampshire.edu] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:51:27 -!- ephcon` [~user@student166-168.hampshire.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 06:52:31 ephcon [~user@student166-168.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 06:52:48 -!- ephcon [~user@student166-168.hampshire.edu] has left #lisp 06:53:42 can you rephrase that without reference to specific technologies? i suspect the answer will be either "interface with a foreign library that does that" or "oh, just talk to it over a socket, then" 06:55:08 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 06:55:22 ok, i'll try 06:56:13 oh, and to make your road a lot less bumpy: http://www.quicklisp.org/ 06:57:06 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-ufatbhiodkyimkmc] has joined #lisp 06:57:06 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-ufatbhiodkyimkmc] has quit [Changing host] 06:57:06 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 06:57:57 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 06:58:17 2 PCs in Active Directory, one of it has share folder with files i need to synchronize 06:59:15 \\pc-name\share-folder - mswin native smb request 07:01:09 how would you do this in $some_other_lang? 07:06:07 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:08:49 in *nix it possible to use sambas lib written in C, and i find jcifs - The Java CIFS Client Library that's it. 07:10:29 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 07:11:53 doesn't windows have some baked-in API calls for this? 07:12:15 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-120-99.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 07:13:48 ...if not, and there really is no pre-existing library you can use (wrapping foreign libraries is typically very easy with lisp), then it seems you indeed get to talk to it over a socket and implement the protocol yourself 07:14:03 binarin [~binarin@85.93.153.62] has joined #lisp 07:18:28 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 07:19:41 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-25.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:20:08 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:219:d1ff:fe07:e073] has joined #lisp 07:20:08 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:219:d1ff:fe07:e073] has quit [Changing host] 07:20:09 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 07:20:36 libsmbclient its name 07:22:06 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:23:05 adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 07:24:43 -!- binarin [~binarin@85.93.153.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:26:49 -!- borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:27:06 most suitable i think jcifs, it fully support smb/cifs protocol, but written in java 07:28:08 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:29:15 tcr [~tcr@100.Red-88-6-12.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:30:36 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-112-241.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 07:32:00 df213 [df213@116.253.158.149] has joined #lisp 07:34:29 binarin [~binarin@85.93.153.62] has joined #lisp 07:34:54 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:36:43 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-157-151.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:37:14 good morning 07:41:06 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-51-60.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:42:06 leo2007 [~leo@123.112.79.2] has joined #lisp 07:46:00 -!- splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:46:41 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-kftrkfanszdemvlm] has joined #lisp 07:46:41 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-kftrkfanszdemvlm] has quit [Changing host] 07:46:41 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 07:48:24 -!- danieljones [~danieljon@qld13-adsl-181.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:49:49 youguy [~youguy@11.Red-193-152-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:50:47 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-33-41-84.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 07:50:48 Atomsk [~ace4016@adsl-33-41-84.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 07:54:57 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 07:55:07 -!- vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:56:22 Ragnaroek_ [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 07:56:23 -!- Ragnaroek_ [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:56:48 ltriant_ [~ltriant@124-149-80-142.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 07:57:07 Ragnaroek_ [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 07:57:15 -!- Ragnaroek_ [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:57:39 Ragnaroek_ [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 07:59:21 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:59:32 JuniorRoy: interfacing with java is a bit harder... not impossible, but there aren't really any pre-baked solutions for sbcl that i know of 07:59:35 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 07:59:45 -!- tcr [~tcr@100.Red-88-6-12.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:59:59 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:00:03 vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 08:00:03 -!- Ragnaroek_ is now known as Ragnaroek 08:00:29 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.215.83] has joined #lisp 08:01:07 tcr [~tcr@100.Red-88-6-12.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:01:18 google for jfli -- i'm not sure if it works on sbcl or not 08:01:55 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-loymkkxenwfcibku] has joined #lisp 08:02:25 Hunden [~Hunden@p5B107DE6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:03:01 splittist [~splittist@150-91.62-81.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 08:04:27 jjong [~user@203.246.179.177] has joined #lisp 08:07:02 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:10:39 -!- rafusy [rav@torvalds.rootnode.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:13:19 -!- splittist [~splittist@150-91.62-81.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: splittist] 08:15:08 Kaizyn [~dragon@66-214-200-44.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 08:16:49 -!- Kaizyn [~dragon@66-214-200-44.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com] has left #lisp 08:21:52 rafusy [rav@torvalds.rootnode.net] has joined #lisp 08:22:19 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-183-211.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:25:26 -!- Ansego [~Ansego@180.181.83.93] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:26:26 jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.60.34] has joined #lisp 08:26:38 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.112.79.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:27:27 argiopeweb [~elliot@adsl-65-166-30.dab.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 08:28:08 Raykon [~user@bl8-14-170.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 08:28:08 splittist [~splittist@150-91.62-81.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 08:33:07 -!- tcr [~tcr@100.Red-88-6-12.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:33:08 aerique [310225@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:33:13 basho__ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-059-085.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:33:20 quotemstr [~quotemstr@173.224.210.52] has joined #lisp 08:33:29 Why &key and not :key ? 08:34:15 because &aux etc are older than the concept of keywords 08:34:47 -!- binarin [~binarin@85.93.153.62] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.1] 08:35:28 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:37:55 -!- youguy [~youguy@11.Red-193-152-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 08:39:28 Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 08:39:32 -!- Hunden [~Hunden@p5B107DE6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:40:10 Hrm, you learn something every day. :allow-other-keys is part of CL, not an Emacsism. 08:41:17 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@46.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:43:09 it's needed especially in clos where you might want to funcall a more general method 08:44:13 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 08:53:25 -!- fantazo_ [~fantazo@178-191-175-24.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:54:08 amb007 [~a_bakic@46.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 08:55:31 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@e196-181.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 08:57:21 trigen_ [~MSX@87.209.144.213] has joined #lisp 08:57:59 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:58:55 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-91-72.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:59:07 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:01:07 pjb [~t@intergruas.easynet.es] has joined #lisp 09:01:46 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-66-72.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:01:47 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 09:04:27 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.228.26.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:05:20 -!- trigen_ [~MSX@87.209.144.213] has left #lisp 09:05:26 trigen_ [~MSX@87.209.144.213] has joined #lisp 09:07:16 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-wfmysvraxxhftxbm] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:08:36 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@83.1.168.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:13:32 frito [~keithmant@cpc2-sotn4-0-0-cust13.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:16:04 -!- frito [~keithmant@cpc2-sotn4-0-0-cust13.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 09:18:10 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 09:18:35 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.60.34] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:24:43 I'd like to play around with continuations, building green threads myself (in SBCL). Now I've read that cl-cont doesn't support defgeneric and defmethod. 09:24:48 cymew [~davour@n148-p205.kthopen.kth.se] has joined #lisp 09:25:02 That means that I have to pass these parameters myself, right? Or are they completely incompatible? 09:28:36 -!- keyvan [~keyvan@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:30:12 -!- longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:31:06 -!- pjb [~t@intergruas.easynet.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:33:15 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:35:12 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 09:35:38 these parameters 09:39:09 leo2007 [~leo@111.194.93.193] has joined #lisp 09:41:18 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:41:18 -!- Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:41:44 Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:43:18 woudshoo [~user@ipleiden.intellimagic.net] has joined #lisp 09:45:04 beg your pardon? 09:46:06 tfb [~tfb@92.41.97.115.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:47:44 -!- m4dnificent is now known as madnificent 09:48:34 jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.60.34] has joined #lisp 09:49:39 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 09:50:35 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@e196-181.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 09:52:13 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:53:09 I just compiled SBCL 1.0.46 (on OS X) and everything runs fine, except for asdf-install. I might have an out-dated copy of asdf-install installed or something... as the error seems to be that an :around method can't be compiled due to it having more arguments than its generic function. 09:54:08 Is there anything specific to SBCL that I should know before I go get myself a fresh copy of asdf-install? 09:54:51 (anything about the default version that differs from the standard version) 09:55:03 (default SBCL version) 09:55:23 jtza8: the sbcl version is the original 09:55:36 jtza8: the "standard" version is a highly modified, un-renamed fork 09:56:12 it might help to make sure you are consistently using only one of the two 09:56:23 *Xach* found the solution was to not use asdf-install 09:56:40 Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 09:57:40 ironmagma [~Adium@c-24-218-222-20.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:57:57 Xach: hmm... asdf-install is useful, I've heard about alternatives though. Do you use one of those then? Or do you just go get the code manually. :P 09:58:38 jtza8: i use quicklisp. 09:59:09 there are some things available via asdf-install that are not available via quicklisp, but the list gets shorter every month 09:59:55 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:00:20 -!- benny [~benny@i577A8FEF.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:00:56 -!- ironmagma [~Adium@c-24-218-222-20.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 10:01:09 I'll give that a go then... it would be nice to contribute to it too, if there's a reason to. Thanks. 10:01:35 is there a project in particular you're trying to install? 10:02:05 Nope, just a general package manager. 10:02:47 I've been pretty happy with quicklisp so far. I hope the author finishes it soon! 10:03:11 hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.121.111] has joined #lisp 10:03:56 jtza8: quicklisp is pretty fabulous. (I hope the author doesn't get distracted by making it do too much too soon...) 10:03:58 benny [~benny@i577A7E7B.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:05:46 splittist: Yeah, I hate when that happens, I'd rather have less things that work perfectly than a hundred hacks. 10:07:08 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 10:08:19 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@e196-181.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 10:09:09 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 10:09:34 Is there a... generic plugin architecture abstracted away in some CL library? 10:10:09 I can't make mine work in ECL. Looks like it binds early where it should bind late which leads to weird package-not-found etc errors. 10:10:28 splittist: ... but from what I've heard, I have faith in the author. 10:11:30 jtza8: Quicklisp's beta is more stable than some released Common Lisp libraries... or implementations. 10:11:42 jtza8: yeah - he's pretty much the poster boy for modesty. 10:12:34 Maybe we should clone him a few times, and try to get the clones attracted to other projects 10:13:21 flip214: Body is useless, just write an AI modeling his mind. 10:13:44 naryl: But who would be able to write that? 10:13:46 well, yesterday the discussion that complete AI is not possible today ... 10:14:08 jtza8: And who would be able to clone him? :) 10:14:18 so perhaps a simple copy would be sufficient 10:14:52 naryl: I'd think that he himself has about half of the necessary equipment build-in 10:16:33 but, TBH, this way of cloning would take a fair bit of time - and the outcome is unsure. The clone might be attracted to scheme instead 10:21:22 youguy [~youguy@1.Red-79-158-63.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:21:26 Noooooo! 10:22:12 Of course, by then R12RS will be 6 times the size of the CL standard... 10:22:48 It does seem to get larger and larger. 10:24:06 maybe a shallow copy would be enough 10:24:36 well, all of the internal state has to be separate, so they can think and do different things, right? 10:25:31 -!- Raykon [~user@bl8-14-170.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:25:32 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:25:45 flip214: What if it's purely functional and stateless? 10:27:17 then at least the stack can't be the same, right? else one's thought might corrupt the other's thought ... hmmm 10:27:41 -!- lusory [~bart@bb119-74-153-40.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:27:58 jtza8: I'm sure that at least some memoization is done internally ... and I'm not sure whether it's correctly locked against races 10:29:07 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:29:07 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 10:29:07 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:30:04 -!- JuniorRoy [~Work@ns.nkmk.ru] has quit [Quit: Out] 10:30:25 xan_ [~xan@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 10:30:33 I suppose, concurrency might be a bit of an issue and if you mess too much with the source, it might change the personality of the copy. 10:31:09 Nope, I suppose it's beyond our reach for now. 10:31:18 -!- youguy [~youguy@1.Red-79-158-63.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 10:31:22 Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:32:31 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.121.111] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 10:32:40 perhaps its possible to just copy the state to a different, already existing instance? that should be much easier 10:33:34 only if we knew what the relevant state was. And that way lies Heisen-madness. 10:34:57 yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 10:35:08 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:35:09 I think that simply transferring the top-level information should make the new instance able to re-parse the rest correctly from other, serialized information 10:35:14 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.41.97.115.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:36:47 hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.121.111] has joined #lisp 10:38:43 splittist: I heard they removed REPL from R6RS. If it's true I bet he won't be attracted to some Scheme. 10:41:31 ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 10:42:26 xinming_ [~hyy@122.238.77.112] has joined #lisp 10:45:27 -!- xinming [~hyy@218.73.133.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:46:55 hi ppl 10:48:25 naryl: looks like it: http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs-rationale/r6rs-rationale-Z-H-10.html 10:48:39 «R6RS makes no attempt at trying to specify the semantics of programs as in R5RS; the design of an interactive environment is now completely in the hands of the implementors.» 10:49:25 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:49:49 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 10:50:44 Google plays smart and gives me "crosscompiling sbcl" instead of "crosscompiling with sbcl". I'll have to ask here instead. :) 10:51:01 Can SBCL running on x86 compile monolithic binaries for x64? 10:51:08 For the same OS. 10:52:23  10:53:22 ok, is there a decent way to distribute Lisp applications without buying a commercial implementation? 10:53:37   :/ 10:54:57 So the client won't have to install the system (some don't have root access on their servers) or download 60MB or a hello-world-size program. 10:55:03 *for 10:55:41 And so I won't have to cope with "problematic" ECL or buy LispWorks. 10:55:49 naryl: One option is to make something so awesome that 60MB is no concern. 10:56:04 naryl: That has been my successful strategy so far. 10:56:21 X-02 [~kohei@pon036-189.kcn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:58:30 you could also install a 64-bit OS in a VM and compile your releases there 10:58:31 -!- X-02 [~kohei@pon036-189.kcn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:01:55 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:02:10 G'morning all. 11:02:50 hi nyef 11:03:27 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.215.83] has quit [Quit: Offline] 11:04:19 longfin [~longfin@1.106.89.158] has joined #lisp 11:05:37 ilynva [~energetik@mail.kgtei.ru] has joined #lisp 11:06:52 -!- ilynva [~energetik@mail.kgtei.ru] has left #lisp 11:07:02 ramkrsna_ [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-cawaavhcakrvnxda] has joined #lisp 11:07:24 naryl: you could tell them it was a printer-driver update. 60MB would look small. 11:10:20 naryl: bzip2 compresses a 43MB core file to 7.3MB ... just use some self-extractor 11:10:26 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:10:43 Ok, I'll use Xach's solution :) 11:14:50 maybe ECL can help, too 11:15:44 jdz: Sorry. 11:17:54 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 11:18:51 naryl: huh? 11:21:09 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 11:21:46 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 11:25:42 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@e196-181.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:28:24 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 11:30:04 -!- longfin [~longfin@1.106.89.158] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:31:39 -!- SidH__ [~SidH_@203.101.61.10] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.16/20110319135224]] 11:36:54 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 11:37:04 longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has joined #lisp 11:39:42 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.121.111] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 11:41:47 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.252] has joined #lisp 11:46:59 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:49:17 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-183-211.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:49:27 -!- TheRealLongshot [~longshot@216.131.74.24] has quit [Quit: TheRealLongshot] 11:50:16 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has joined #lisp 11:50:50 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@155.69.43.70] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:50:53 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 11:52:34 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.252] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:56:02 -!- df213 [df213@116.253.158.149] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:57:16 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 11:59:22 df213 [df213@116.253.158.149] has joined #lisp 12:07:58 *nyef* just used SHIFTF for probably the first and second time. 12:10:33 *Xach* has been looking for excuses to use it, has found none yet 12:12:00 *_8david* likes (shiftf var new-value) 12:13:24 *nyef* likes (when (shiftf var new-value) ...) 12:14:03 where's the difference to a simple (when (setf var new-value)), apart from being longer? 12:14:16 flip214: It tests the old-value. 12:14:23 ah, yes! thank you. 12:14:38 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:14:49 So, if you want to change a binary state, and then do something if the state changed... 12:18:06 IAmMEGAPissed [46b3a973@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.179.169.115] has joined #lisp 12:20:32 well, rather if the old state was true - regardless of the new state 12:20:46 Right. 12:21:15 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 12:22:02 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 12:23:26 -!- IAmMEGAPissed [46b3a973@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.179.169.115] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:23:35 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@e196-246.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 12:25:41 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:27:18 quicklist = Xach, no? 12:27:44 *Quicklisp 12:28:21 JuanDaugherty: well, not exactly equality, but Xach made QL 12:28:33 (for = read arbitrary connective) 12:28:56 L'quicklisp, c'est moi 12:29:02 rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-171-48-71.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 12:29:22 *JuanDaugherty* lols uberall 12:29:31 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 12:29:42 memechaser [~memechase@pya013000043.lancs.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:31:47 tr3x [~tr3x@78-0-210-128.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 12:32:20 -!- dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:32:27 concerning SHIFTF, I remember being proud of being mentioned at lemonodor.com in 2005: http://lemonodor.com/archives/001035.html 12:32:56 dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has joined #lisp 12:33:43 ah, that elusive lemonodor fame 12:33:47 on that day you should have changed your nick to ivan1st 12:33:55 jweiss [~user@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:35:37 Xach: Ivan IV is good enough, IMHO, considering some other numbered ivans 12:37:03 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-xbwhxwsxrwsbhubw] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:37:43 ivan the terrible? 12:37:47 youguy [~youguy@11.Red-193-152-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:38:36 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:38:44 Grozny, Crazy are tne primary non-measure attributives 12:38:55 stassats: actually, this is what is meant (due to middle name, Vasilyevich) 12:40:03 I'll add that "Grozny" evokes immediate connotation to "dangerous" in Polish :) 12:40:28 "Ivan the Terrible, also called Vassilyevich in reference to his murderous temper" 12:40:29 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:40:33 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 12:40:50 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:42:52 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@e196-246.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 12:52:09 : -) 12:52:26 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-151-30.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 12:53:24 -!- leo2007 [~leo@111.194.93.193] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 12:54:17 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:54:24 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-120-99.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:57:07 lifeng [~lifeng@bb116-14-191-157.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 12:57:36 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@e196-246.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 12:57:40 -!- tc_ [~travis@rrcs-67-78-243-170.se.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:58:25 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 12:58:25 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-aubczvnzmehhwaiv] has joined #lisp 12:59:41 -!- youguy [~youguy@11.Red-193-152-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 13:03:50 Bronsa [~brace@host94-184-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:09:32 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:10:52 ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 13:14:09 sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:14:40 -!- sellout is now known as Guest67252 13:17:43 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:18:47 -!- Guest67252 [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:21:06 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:21:25 tymn [~kvirc@cpe-066-057-068-141.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:21:26 jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.123] has joined #lisp 13:21:54 -!- dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-59-86.xnet.hr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:25:00 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 13:25:31 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 13:25:43 dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-59-86.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 13:25:46 tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:29:48 X-02 [~kohei@pon036-189.kcn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:29:59 -!- adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 13:30:20 longshot [~longshot@180.184.8.3] has joined #lisp 13:30:36 -!- longshot is now known as TheRealLongshot 13:33:26 -!- tymn [~kvirc@cpe-066-057-068-141.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:33:39 rme [~rme@pool-70-105-118-12.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:00 -!- TheRealLongshot [~longshot@180.184.8.3] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:35:20 longshot [~longshot@216.131.74.24] has joined #lisp 13:35:44 xxxyyy [~xyxu@180.172.53.36] has joined #lisp 13:37:47 -!- hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:40:46 whee, builds just got 1000 seconds faster by setting *print-pretty* to nil. 13:41:37 hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has joined #lisp 13:41:55 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@e196-246.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 13:42:38 Xach: awesome 13:42:59 That's... just over 15 minutes? 13:43:10 particularly if they took 1001 seconds before... 13:43:28 4500 to 3500, actually. 13:43:56 So, down to less than an hour? Nice! 13:45:53 gemelen_ [~shelta@shpd-92-101-151-30.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 13:46:07 *flip214* read that as "1000 times faster" at first 13:46:42 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 13:47:57 hm 13:48:07 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-151-30.vologda.ru] has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:48:08 is that on sbcl, or all platforms? 13:48:14 -!- gemelen_ is now known as gemelen 13:48:28 SBCL 13:49:35 *nikodemus* makes a note to track that down 13:50:51 What, print-pretty slowing things down? Is it news? 13:50:55 It just didn't occur to me to try it. 13:51:27 youguy [~youguy@11.Red-193-152-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:51:35 until yesterday, that is. 13:51:51 Actually, it was inspired by asdf's new hideously ugly linewrapping. 13:51:54 -!- youguy [~youguy@11.Red-193-152-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:52:04 I'd much rather have no wrapping than what it does currently. 13:52:09 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:52:20 youguy [~youguy@11.Red-193-152-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:53:39 pretty-printing being hideously slow is not exactly news, but i didn't expect it to show up in compile-file or load that strongly 13:54:06 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.60.34] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:56:48 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-69-35.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 13:57:02 A full build of everything in quicklisp can output hundreds of thousands of lines. 13:57:15 binarin [~binarin@85.93.153.62] has joined #lisp 13:57:34 ...and a crapload of compiler notes and whatnot 13:57:37 hm, yeah 13:57:51 -!- rononovski_ [~rononovsk@109.64.185.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:58:17 -!- splittist [~splittist@150-91.62-81.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:58:24 still, >20% of time spent printing things is pretty sucky 13:58:50 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-120-99.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:58:55 nikodemus: If that's your metric, we can easily fix that... by making the compiler slower! 13:58:59 haha 13:59:07 heh 13:59:29 I'll do two squeaky-clean builds today and report the difference between *print-pretty* t and nil. 13:59:38 There can be a lot of variance in build times, so I'll try to isolate that. 13:59:41 I'm thinking we start with reaching definition analysis, then some of the basic loop transforms such as strength reduction... 13:59:59 gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 14:01:19 Xach: even partial sb-sprof results would be nifty -- but of course we can generate those on our own as well 14:02:05 antgreen [~user@nat/redhat/x-fsyeiufdxjepycwi] has joined #lisp 14:02:28 tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.102.125] has joined #lisp 14:02:37 Xach: and do you have all -verbose* and -print* variables set to NIL? 14:02:38 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-183-211.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:02:50 Xach: why not just bind {compile,load}-{verbose,load} to NIL ? 14:03:26 *print-pretty* is the first thing that came to mind. 14:03:26 that won't get rid of compiler notes and style warnings, though 14:03:32 Those other things are good ideas too. 14:04:06 Xach: and #+cmu ext:*gc-verbose* as well 14:04:12 but you could shuffle them too 14:04:33 I don't use cmucl for build testing, so that's not an issue. 14:04:48 stassats: the muffle shuffle? 14:04:51 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-93943513.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout] 14:05:13 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-69-35.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:05:14 yes, the words get shuffled in my head 14:05:26 splittist [~splittist@150-91.62-81.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 14:05:39 i guess it's shut up + muffle 14:05:43 nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has joined #lisp 14:05:44 -!- nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has quit [Changing host] 14:05:44 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 14:06:00 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:07:01 ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 14:07:01 I should report the output bug in asdf, though. 14:07:06 It's really much worse than before. 14:07:14 sellout [~Adium@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:43 Xach: is it worth a comparative paste? 14:08:11 orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has joined #lisp 14:08:22 In a bit. 14:09:16 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 14:09:33 -!- youguy [~youguy@11.Red-193-152-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 14:12:20 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:12:33 gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 14:14:48 -!- Deltafire [~chris@82-71-44-155.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:16:53 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:18:54 Deltafire [~chris@82-71-44-155.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:19:45 vilsonvieira [~vilson@h08100.ifsc.usp.br] has joined #lisp 14:21:44 -!- aidalgol [aidan@2002:453d:f72::1337:3] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 14:22:27 is there any built-in function to check if char is a digit? 14:22:39 freiksenet: digit-char-p 14:22:43 freiksenet: obscurely named, for sure! 14:22:56 yeah, I was looking for char-*something*-p 14:22:59 thanks! 14:23:13 freiksenet: the permuted index is handy for that kind of lookup 14:23:17 aidalgol [aidan@2002:453d:f72::1337:3] has joined #lisp 14:23:29 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 14:24:23 cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.139.95.133] has joined #lisp 14:25:33 -!- longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:25:52 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 14:26:45 leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has joined #lisp 14:26:46 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has left #lisp 14:26:56 -!- Deltafire [~chris@82-71-44-155.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:33:13 serichsen [~user@switch1.elmi.uni-bonn.de] has joined #lisp 14:33:54 slyrus: I have a question regarding the example in the opticl readme file. 14:35:53 slyrus: I do not get the reason for the typecase ... declare type construct. I would assume that a typecase branch implies that declaration already for almost any compiler. 14:37:06 Rukowen [~Rukowen@222.253.100.209] has joined #lisp 14:37:21 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:38:39 serichsen: See if removing the declaration has any effect? 14:38:46 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 14:39:37 jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:42:44 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:43:52 -!- emporas [~emporas@athedsl-169325.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:44:05 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:44:24 Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:45:11 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:46:11 mydik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:48:22 Deltafire [~chris@82-71-44-155.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:48:53 borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:12 -!- rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-171-48-71.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:51:13 rononovski_ [~rononovsk@109.64.185.226] has joined #lisp 14:52:09 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:52:40 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 14:53:30 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:53:59 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:54:19 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-84-108-13-183.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:20 hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.121.111] has joined #lisp 15:01:23 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.148.219] has joined #lisp 15:01:49 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.121.111] has quit [Client Quit] 15:02:19 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:02 urandom__ [~user@p548A40E2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:54 tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has joined #lisp 15:05:31 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:05:53 -!- orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:06:50 -!- cymew [~davour@n148-p205.kthopen.kth.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:07:28 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host94-184-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:07:46 Bronsa [~brace@host94-184-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:08:53 ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 15:09:45 Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 15:10:05 milkpost [~milkpost@173-23-137-233.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 15:10:50 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.148.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:19:53 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 15:20:51 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:26:35 -!- trigen_ [~MSX@87.209.144.213] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:29:18 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.148.219] has joined #lisp 15:29:34 ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 15:30:53 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:31:20 milanj [~milanj_@178-223-172-123.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 15:32:35 hi 15:34:49 wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:18 Hello Posterdati. 15:37:45 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 15:38:28 hi 15:39:15 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81B1F2.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:39:15 i have an awkward question, what is the easiest way to print lisp package in two columns with font 9px? 15:39:36 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@180.172.53.36] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:40:15 ... that /is/ an awkward question. Mainly because of what isn't supplied. 15:40:16 v0|d: that is an awkward question. what does it mean to "print lisp package"? 15:40:44 Xach: printing all lisp files to paper. 15:40:44 Easiest for whom? 15:41:00 v0|d: i like to use the "mpage" utility for that 15:41:06 mpage, let me see. 15:41:20 -!- jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:41:45 "mpage -m60 -f2 asdf.lisp | lpr" for example 15:42:15 it results in 30 pages, 2 pages of source per sheet 15:42:28 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 15:42:28 spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-109-10.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:42:35 hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.121.111] has joined #lisp 15:42:53 very nice. 15:42:54 *Xach* likes to read code 15:43:15 *redline6561* needs to read more code 15:43:24 *nyef* needs to write more code. 15:43:28 i think i will do find ./ -name *.lisp -exec `cat {} >> foo.txt \;` 15:43:36 Xach: It would be a nice thing to have a tool that would generate code for reading in an ebook 15:43:36 than feed foo to mpage. 15:43:43 nyef: ARM port for some ambiguous win! ;) 15:43:50 s/ebook/e-reader/ 15:43:51 redline6561: Umm... no. 15:44:01 I prefer unambiguous win right now. 15:44:06 schoppenhauer [~christoph@2a01:4f8:101:281:7ad5:1003:0:1] has joined #lisp 15:44:08 nyef: btw, did you publish your ARM port sources anywhere? 15:44:09 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@2a01:4f8:101:281:7ad5:1003:0:1] has quit [Changing host] 15:44:09 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 15:44:19 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:44:19 nyef: Good idea. What are you working on then? 15:44:34 p_l|backup: http://repo.or.cz/w/sbcl/nyef.git/shortlog/refs/heads/arm-port 15:44:51 Xach: thnx btw. 15:44:58 redline6561: Trying to figure out CLIM. 15:45:08 v0|d: no problem. if your eyes are very good, try -f4 instead. that will print four per page. 15:45:24 v0|d: i spent many lunch hours reading cl-ppcre on 4-up pages like that... 15:45:30 (If your eyes aren't that good, try it anyway and use a magnifying glass...) 15:45:32 Xach: generally i use that setting, people hate me because of that. 15:45:49 for ebooks especially. but never tried for lisp code. 15:46:18 p_l|backup: FWIW, my approach in that branch was completely wrong: I should have gutted IR2TRAN instead of trying to stub out all the various VOPs. 15:47:03 -!- memechaser [~memechase@pya013000043.lancs.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:47:40 nyef: ahhh. So you tried to port the VOPs to ARM from another arch? 15:47:44 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:47:47 p_l|backup: Given that, and the xc-test framework in the stupid-lowtag-tricks branch, it should be far easier to make things go. 15:47:54 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has joined #lisp 15:48:03 Saturnation [~dsouth@pool-70-109-183-199.burl.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:24 Not quite, but yeah. The approach I was on would have ended up with a big-bang integration partway through. 15:48:37 -!- aerique [310225@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:48:45 longshot_ [~longshot@180.184.8.3] has joined #lisp 15:49:12 -!- longshot_ is now known as Guest67819 15:49:40 mathrick [~mathrick@90-156-22-132.internetia.net.pl] has joined #lisp 15:51:23 -!- longshot [~longshot@216.131.74.24] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:52:44 well, I was thinking of slightly different approach towards ARM-based implementation - ARM would be an interesting target for a bytecoded implementation 15:54:59 dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 15:57:44 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-aubczvnzmehhwaiv] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:00:33 -!- schell [~schellsci@c-76-103-111-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: schell] 16:05:17 has anyone managed to get uffi fluid and clsql all working correctly? :p 16:05:56 mdavadriansmith1 [~mdavadria@75-150-13-105-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:24 Aiwass [~Aiwass4@188.26.202.177] has joined #lisp 16:08:12 cesarbp: clsql is tough with sqlite, i know. 16:08:13 homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-160-71.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:08:57 i'm wanting to use mysql but it's down the same road :/ 16:09:26 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.148.219] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:09:36 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 16:09:49 well more like wanting to watch the weblocks-clsql demo 16:10:56 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-224.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:13:59 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@c-71-193-241-28.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:15:46 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:16:25 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 16:17:04 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-193-241-28.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:19:02 daniel__ [~daniel@p5B32646E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:20 -!- daniel_ [~daniel@p5B327D2C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:21:57 -!- woudshoo [~user@ipleiden.intellimagic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:22:03 -!- jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.123] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:23:04 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 16:23:56 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:27:37 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-23-137-233.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:28:47 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.121.111] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 16:30:25 Jasko2 [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 16:32:50 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:33:25 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@90-156-22-132.internetia.net.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:33:30 GrayMagiker [~steve@c-174-56-26-27.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:29 Hmm. What is the current released version of asdf2? What tag should be used? 2.0.13? 2.0.13.4? 16:34:58 2.0.13 looks like a stable release 16:35:49 hey 16:35:55 how do I remove (NIL) from a list? 16:36:36 (remove '(NIL) a-list :test #'equal) 16:37:03 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 16:37:09 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:37:21 stassats: Yeah, I guess 2.0.13 is it. 16:37:22 I committed 2.0.13 to ccl, but it looks like there were/are some isses with it, so I reverted it and am sticking to 2.0.12 until the asdf dust settles. 16:39:13 how can I split a string by CRLF delimiters ? 16:39:22 without cl-ppcre 16:39:42 also, how do I debug in clisp? i'm new to clisp and when it get a problem it doesn't give the line number 16:39:49 I don't know how to debug 16:39:58 even trace are not that much useful in first glance 16:40:01 is 16:41:02 kiuma: you write a function which does that for you 16:41:29 nothing ready to use ? 16:41:35 cl-ppcre? 16:41:58 or split-sequence, if you insist on not using cl-ppcre 16:42:31 pen: clisp doesn't give line numbers. (I don't know of any Lisp implementation that gives line numbers.) 16:43:05 -!- Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:43:40 not insisting, just asking 16:43:54 pen: you use an IDE for debugging which will fly you to the place where the error occurred automatically 16:44:50 for example, Slime, although the support of Clisp in it isn't great, you'd rather use SBCL with it 16:45:11 with quicklisp, If I've loaded htmlgen, shouldn't there be an htmlgen directory in ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/ ? 16:45:12 gz [~gz@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:22 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 16:47:38 morning 16:47:44 Saturnation: Maybe you have htmgen in some other location that asdf knows about. 16:47:52 -!- gz [~gz@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 16:48:10 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.102.125] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:48:49 serichsen: yes, that's what I would have thought too, but it's not how typecase seems to work 16:49:08 stassats: the weird thing is, even though I tried to remove (NIL) from the list it is still there 16:50:12 pen: a) you're doing it wrong b) your expectations are wrong c) you are observing the results wrongly 16:50:17 choose one 16:50:19 *Saturnation* check synaptic 16:51:28 I haven't installed in via ubuntu packages and I wouldn't have a clue how else to do it 16:51:47 stassats: It might be one because I have no clue how to remove an item (NIL) from a list 16:51:50 The reason I ask is because sbcl doesn't know about htmlgen even after quickloading it :( 16:51:57 pen: didn't i show you already? 16:51:58 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:52:09 (remove '(NIL) a-list :test #'equal) 16:52:56 pen: the result is the list with the element removed - the list you pass in isn't necessarily touched 16:53:42 well, with remove it's necessarily not touched 16:53:56 Hunden [~Hunden@141.62.34.10] has joined #lisp 16:55:14 stassats: well, I did that but like I said. it seems to stick in there. dlowe: i used setq again on the same list 16:55:59 i can't say what you're doing wrong without seeing what you're doing 16:56:01 lisppaste: url? 16:56:01 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 16:56:11 oh, nvm. I missed the :test 16:56:20 :\ haha 16:56:54 yeah, it's a crucial part 16:57:03 Aiwass2 [~Aiwass4@188.26.202.177] has joined #lisp 16:57:09 no wonder it doesnt work 16:57:38 the default test is EQL, and (eql (list nil) (list nil)) => NIL 16:59:44 -!- Aiwass [~Aiwass4@188.26.202.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:00:18 oh 17:00:19 ok 17:00:54 btw, I wonder if it is possible to have a set container in lisp? I want to compare two list after adding stuff into it to make sure they are the same afterwards 17:01:07 and should I use eql? 17:01:17 antifuchs: yay. one of your (allegro's) users submitted a patch for cltl2:variable-information for opticl. still seems slow however. 17:01:50 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:01:50 huh 17:03:06 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-25.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:03:57 Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:04:19 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d002c6e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:25 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 17:07:12 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-51-60.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:07:23 clhs set-difference 17:07:24 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_set_di.htm 17:10:36 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:14:44 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:48 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:15:29 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:16:17 looks like htmlgen is in portableserve :) 17:16:31 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-39-6-229.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:26 ldh [~ldh@static-217-37.vpn.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 17:18:21 not in the package I expected, but happily found what I was looking for... 17:18:52 schell [~schellsci@70-36-199-232.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:57 looks like it is time for me to finally look at using packages... 17:19:00 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-183-211.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:19:16 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:19:28 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:19:49 *sykopomp* has recently started having decent success by having one package per file. 17:19:51 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:20:01 Saturnation: I wonder how long it will take before you go screaming for conduits ^_- 17:21:14 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 17:22:33 -!- GrayMagiker [~steve@c-174-56-26-27.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:22:41 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-166-255.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:22:56 pnq [~nick@host-185.ssu.portsmouth.oh.us] has joined #lisp 17:24:07 waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-5d870e4e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:00 -!- schell [~schellsci@70-36-199-232.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:25:15 astoon [~astoon@178-16-146-17.obit.ru] has joined #lisp 17:25:21 emporas [~emporas@athedsl-169325.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 17:26:29 jokoon [~eio@feu30-1-82-242-58-229.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:50 Kenjin [~josesanto@83.240.225.146] has joined #lisp 17:29:58 -!- relcomp [~chatzilla@nat.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has left #lisp 17:31:18 tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has joined #lisp 17:31:18 -!- X-02 [~kohei@pon036-189.kcn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:31:19 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C29DE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:49 pycoder01 [~pycoder@c-98-227-187-219.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:53 tfb [~tfb@92.41.186.228.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:37:54 -!- splittist [~splittist@150-91.62-81.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: splittist] 17:38:43 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 17:38:46 Hmm. asdf:subdirectories should return a list of the subdirectories of a directory. I assume that means no files are included. 17:38:46 -!- emporas [~emporas@athedsl-169325.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:39:27 i would assume that too 17:40:11 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:41:03 -!- pycoder01 [~pycoder@c-98-227-187-219.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:41:20 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:41:36 It's returning files as well on cmucl. I think that causes asdf2 test test-configuration to fail. 17:41:41 pycoder01 [~pycoder@c-98-227-187-219.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:42:00 timepilot [~timepilot@c-98-227-187-219.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:42:39 adobriyan [~ad@vulture2-nat-45.telecom.by] has joined #lisp 17:42:56 -!- Rukowen [~Rukowen@222.253.100.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:43:32 -!- Aiwass2 [~Aiwass4@188.26.202.177] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:44:54 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 17:45:11 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:45:25 tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has joined #lisp 17:48:24 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:48:58 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 17:49:25 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has quit [Client Quit] 17:51:01 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:52:48 -!- waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-5d870e4e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: WTF? leaving!] 17:53:03 -!- ramkrsna_ [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-cawaavhcakrvnxda] has quit [Quit: Quit] 17:55:17 http://paste.lisp.org/display/120843/raw shows the asdf output i complained about earlier 17:56:18 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:56:53 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:57:47 sykopomp: One package per file, huh? Small or large files? 17:59:37 Even more issues with asdf:subdirectories. It makes a wild pathname like "/foo/*/". That's only going to find subdirectories of the /foo directory. The test appears to want all the subdirectories. 18:00:08 nyef: ~200 lines or so each. 18:00:31 How's that working out for you? 18:00:44 I mean, you made a positive comment, but... 18:00:58 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has joined #lisp 18:01:22 Are you doing anything special for system building, or just using ASDF? 18:01:34 I'm not 100% sure I would completely switch to it yet. 18:01:42 I see. 18:01:53 I kind of started the project by globbing everything into a single package (before the entire project was more than 200loc) 18:02:16 then I started building new features by creating new files+packages, and only exporting a small API from each package. 18:02:56 I've run into a slight speed bump now, though, because I could tell some parts of the originally-globbed file could, conceptually, be separated into new packages. 18:03:13 And thus, new files? 18:03:18 but I wrote that code to be so interdependent, it's taking me a while to cut the cord. 18:03:31 right. New features are relatively easy to fork off into new packages. 18:03:47 but taking an existing system that isn't terribly well-factored and splitting it up is a bit of a challenge. 18:03:53 but that requires forward-thinking! 18:03:58 it does! 18:04:05 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:04:18 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.42] has joined #lisp 18:04:24 It's a pain even when it -is- reasonably well-factored. :-/ 18:04:28 although relatively little. I've gotten into the habit of subdividing tasks enough that what should be a new package is relatively obvious. 18:05:05 nyef: I think it's a sign of code smell, too -- I was relying too much on deep, direct access to certain things. 18:05:20 Yes, probably is. 18:05:22 so I feel my code's already improved, even though I haven't finished the refactor yet. 18:05:49 *Saturnation* 's head is confused 18:06:12 I've got a function that returns (:P "Some text") 18:06:15 i used a package for each file for subtitles parser, because each subtitle format parsing code would share similar names 18:06:27 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 18:06:36 minion: stassats-subtitles? 18:06:37 stassats-subtitles: stassats-subtitles is a movie subtitle editing library. http://www.cliki.net/stassats-subtitles 18:06:53 -!- Hunden [~Hunden@141.62.34.10] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:07:06 To be more concrete... I'm working on a webapp. I started by putting all the handlers, 'component' renderers, startup/shutdown, configuration, and even the code to handle websockets, and linking up those websockets with hunchentoot's sessions... in a single file. 18:07:09 Saturnation: you aren't the guy who just emailed me abaut Markup by any chance? 18:07:09 seems close 18:07:13 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-84-108-13-183.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:07:30 (html '(:P "Some text")) ->

Some text

, however (html (process-node)) -> (:P "Some text") where (process node)-> (:P "Some text") ??? 18:07:35 gigamonkey, not I sir 18:07:38 tronador_ [~guille@186.97.197.71] has joined #lisp 18:07:47 once I started making things persistent, I started creating new packages for different things, like myproj.account, and I exported just 'create-account and 'validate-account from there. 18:08:01 Saturnation: okay. Then you didn't just get a response from me. ;-) 18:08:03 *stassats`* is still discovering what descriptions somebody put for his pet projects on cliki 18:08:11 Saturnation: is HTML a macro or a function? 18:08:19 gigamonkey, would be very weird if I had 18:08:46 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.42] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:08:53 Xach, macro (from what I'm reading in the dox) and I've tried macroexpand-1 on it and just get the same result 18:09:29 If it's a macro I'd be surprised if (html '(:p "some text")) (with the quote) actually works. 18:09:32 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.42] has joined #lisp 18:09:44 Saturnation: if it's a macro, there's no special reason to expect that normal function argument evaluation rules apply. there's no reason to expect that (process-node) will be treated as a function call and its return value used. 18:09:51 Saturnation: what library? 18:10:03 Saturnation: it depends on the semantics implemented by the macro, for which you have to read the documentation (hopefully) or the code 18:10:33 Yes, it is generally a good idea to read documentation with a hopeful spirit. 18:10:36 gigamonkey: i could kinda see that as a silent DWIMmy step 18:10:57 Xach: yuck. 18:11:08 I wonder what the "loading # as a-name" is supposed to indicate 18:11:12 gigamonkey, I assume they lie until proven otherwise 18:11:29 xach: am reading the code now 18:11:56 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.139.95.133] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.15/20110303024726]] 18:11:59 stassats`: as far as thinking ahead goes... when I first made the myproj.account package, I also had all the db-related stuff right in that package. 18:12:01 Saturnation: I think it's better to expect them to be right and alert the author in the event of conflicts. 18:12:15 (especially the "as that-very-same-name" part could just be dropped, no?) 18:12:18 antifuchs: I hadn't even considered that, but now I also wonder. Maybe the message is meaningless. 18:12:24 -!- dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:12:27 rillo2 [~patrick@p57B82890.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:34 once I started writing other packages that did persistence, it was relatively easy to just cut-paste the general db util code into a new myproj.db package. 18:12:39 it's useful to know when a system definition gets read, but repeating the name is just weird (: 18:12:44 so it's not always painfully hard to subdivide. 18:13:02 Xach, was more thinking in terms of specs actually, my bad on that one 18:13:05 I blame code smell for my current problem, and this turns out to be fixing it. 18:13:50 *Saturnation* 's not smart enough yet to read this code :( 18:13:52 Have you run into a point of having too many small packages and files to keep track of easily? 18:14:08 Saturnation: have you said yet what code it is? 18:15:14 htmlgen 18:15:25 or on :) 18:15:29 s/on/no 18:15:55 -!- tronador_ [~guille@186.97.197.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:16:08 *Saturnation* is just trying to transform xml to html while walking over the tree 18:16:36 And are all these files in one directory, or do you now have multiple directories with related files in them for a single project? 18:16:58 Saturnation: If that work is to be done at runtime, there might not be much use of a macro-based HTML generation scheme. 18:17:11 nyef: I haven't started putting them into subdirectories yet, nor have I had a problem with too many small packages (yet). 18:17:28 Xach good point 18:17:34 And approximately how many files do you have right now? 18:17:35 Looks like you want the functions HTML-PRINT or HTML-PRINT-LIST 18:17:39 *Saturnation* just picked the first one he saw 18:18:01 Hello lispers! 18:18:24 So, today I'm wondering if the empty list is a plist? 18:18:33 nyef: 4 before the refactoring started. I expect 7-8 when I'm done, and another one will follow almost immediately. 18:18:56 -!- pycoder01 [~pycoder@c-98-227-187-219.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:19:06 mon_key: what prompts you to ask this question? 18:19:09 youguy [~youguy@84.122.196.66.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 18:19:32 gigamonkey, Ah, thanks! :) 18:19:36 Hrm. My game-stuff seems to be 10 files... 18:19:42 i'd say that () is any kind of list with just zero elements 18:19:46 pays to KEEP reading the dox I suspose... :) 18:20:26 "property list" is defined in the glossary as a list with an even number of elements that are alternating keys and values. 18:20:30 (evenp 0) => t 18:20:34 schell [~schellsci@c-76-103-111-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:36 Saturnation: though it is easier to remember to keep reading when you have the experience to know that a macro can't really (or isn't likely to) do what you want. 18:20:39 gigamonkey, Thank you so much 18:20:39 ... and I have another project that's 21 files and growing, but that one isn't actually compilable yet. 18:20:58 stassats`: Sometimes one wants to map the key/vals of plist and would like to know that the plist isn't empty e.g. for example make-instance/initialize-instance :after 18:21:17 *Saturnation* is like a little kid learning a new skill; making a mess everyone, having fun and eventually learning some little thing 18:21:26 s/everyone/everywhere 18:21:36 mon_key: why do you need to know that it's empty or not for make-instance/initialize-instance? 18:21:43 Also, we had a discussion here a while back about Comet. I ended up keeping Hunchentoot (I quite like it), and I use websockets (using clws and web-socket-js) to get push functionality without holding up hundreds of threads. I really like it, and even got help to 'link' and validate the web user's session with the websocket session. 18:22:18 nyef: heh. I imagine I'll have a better idea of how much trouble this'll be once I pass the 10-file mark. It's only two weekends old so far. :) 18:22:31 Fair enough. 18:22:50 Meanwhile, have fun with it! 18:23:26 -!- youguy [~youguy@84.122.196.66.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:23:43 I shall! I'll report in again once the file hierarchy is less trivial. ;) 18:24:32 I like the benefits, though -- it's encouraged me to think of interfaces between chunks of the program, instead of freely using everything available, so there's a lot of 'free' flexibility. 18:25:04 stassats`: I'm storing class slot docs in a hash-table and intializing its key to the slot of a `documented-class'. I want to run an :after method on initialize-instance of `documented-class' and don't want to setf gethash to an empty-list 18:25:36 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:25:48 -!- mydik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:25:56 muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:03 ElizabethDysart [~Elizabeth@c-67-184-184-26.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:07 -!- Onyxyte_ [~Onyxyte@r75-110-112-109.rmntcmtc02.rcmtnc.ab.dh.suddenlink.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:26:39 -!- ElizabethDysart [~Elizabeth@c-67-184-184-26.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:27:33 ElizabethDysart [~Elizabeth@c-67-184-184-26.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:51 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:28:45 stassats`: So to preempt this from occuring i have an initform in `documented-class' that checks that the relevant subseq of the value of an initarg is in fact a plist in which case I frob the plist in subseq to an alist... 18:29:15 mon_key: you seem fond of really complicated thing! 18:29:16 things 18:29:49 Xach: Is there a portable way to set the :documentation value of a class' 18:29:51 slot 18:31:07 mon_key: I don't know. 18:32:28 -!- ElizabethDysart [~Elizabeth@c-67-184-184-26.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:33:27 http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/florida/meet-panama-city-bk-brawler-653092 18:34:34 muhdick: Wrong channel. 18:34:44 Xach: AFAICT there isn't. In any event, a quick look at alexandria's plist functions shows them performing various assertions which _sometimes_ ask a similar question as mine... 18:36:30 what do u mean 18:36:40 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:37:13 i wanted to share here 18:37:21 ludacris- [~giatrio@ppp-94-68-249-72.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 18:37:33 Hello everybody, can someone recommend a tool to request an URL with sbcl and clisp? 18:37:35 muhdick: This isn't the channel to join and share random URLs. 18:37:43 rillo2: I like to use Drakma for that. 18:37:57 rillo2: I don't know if drakma works on clisp, but it might have some built-in HTTP functionality. 18:38:27 Good evening, i want to implement an expert system, could someone please give me some information on how to implement? Thank you in advance 18:38:29 thanks, xach - will google for it now 18:38:29 systemaddict [~anonymous@208.74.177.139.static.etheric.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:36 rillo2: http://www.clisp.org/impnotes.html#open-http 18:38:46 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-loymkkxenwfcibku] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:39:25 ludacris-: Maybe you could study an existing expert system to see how it works. 18:39:38 ludacris-: http://clipsrules.sourceforge.net/ is the only one I can think of at the moment. 18:40:33 ludacris-: take a look at the expert-system from the guys at UT Austin its KIF derived 18:40:37 doesn't PAIP have some stuff about basic expert systems? 18:41:21 Xach: i have implemented a decision program on clips. It was the first thing that came in my mind. But i would like to have a graphic interface. 18:41:38 ludacris-: http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/mfkb/ 18:42:42 *Xach* wonders if Gensym G2 is an expert system 18:42:55 may i tell you what i want to do, because i am not so sure, that i need to implement an expert system 18:43:01 ludacris-: and apparently KM 2.5.29 is QuickLisp friendly 18:43:20 ah, yes, that's right. 18:43:28 they made some changes just for quicklisp (very nice of 'em) 18:43:56 Xach: So it says... I haven't build KM in a long time :) 18:44:14 ... standard-sheet-input-mixin does inter-thread marshaling of events. In order for these events to be handled, another thread must read them off the queue, figure out which sheet they originally were for, and call the appropriate handle-event method. 18:44:38 mon_key: the original distribution was a multimegabyte .lisp file with instructions about how to split it up and load it 18:44:43 old school 18:45:02 Xach: yes. that is the one i built a few years back. 18:45:15 There is no defined way to specify that any given sheet has a given event queue, save for OPEN-WINDOW-STREAM. 18:45:51 And even that specification is deeply bogus. 18:46:18 well, i want to implement an application, to which i will give some medical information, and depending on that information, it will decide something. The decision should be based on different probability of every argument. 18:46:34 ludacris-: You might look at de.setf.resource as well. Kind of CLOS/RDF persistence thing: https://github.com/lisp/de.setf.resource 18:47:21 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:33 If one assumes that each sheet has its own event queue, then each sheet suddenly needs its own thread to monitor said queue. Attack of the BeOS-style pervasive multithreading! 18:47:36 ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 18:48:08 ludacris-: norvig wrote about something like that in PAIP 18:48:50 stuhacking [~stuhackin@host86-130-225-151.range86-130.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:49:13 Xach: yes, but my concern is how can i represent my decision in a graphical interface? 18:49:24 If one assumes that each sheet in a given frame shares a single event queue, one needs to find evidence of some mechanism for setting up such a shared queue. 18:50:04 The only other assumption available is that standard-sheet-input-mixin is rarely used. 18:50:15 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:51:37 Is there a lag on the asdf git repo? Or should I poke Fare to push his commit? 18:52:17 *Xach* pokes 18:53:04 -!- schell [~schellsci@c-76-103-111-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: schell] 18:53:58 schell [~schellsci@c-76-103-111-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:20 EXECUTE-FRAME-COMMAND is the only obvious mention of frames having their own event queues. 18:55:42 thank you for your help:), have a good evening 18:55:48 goodbye 18:56:44 wow. sbcl 0.9.1.8. wonder if that will compile the HEAD 18:59:13 Xach: G2 afaik includes an expert system 19:00:48 eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 19:04:01 cheezus [~Adium@76-10-163-32.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 19:06:05 -!- schell [~schellsci@c-76-103-111-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: schell] 19:06:36 ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 19:06:54 schell [~schellsci@c-76-103-111-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:16 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-157-151.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:09:23 ElizabethDysart [~Elizabeth@c-67-184-184-26.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:06 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:14:09 HG` [~HG@dslb-084-061-240-251.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:32 enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-76-242-89-167.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:47 kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.231.88] has joined #lisp 19:21:57 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-151-30.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:22:24 -!- ltriant_ [~ltriant@124-149-80-142.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 19:23:10 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:23:25 Phoodus [~foo@ip68-231-47-70.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:24:11 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:24:56 I've been very deep down and longly in the "one package per file, with many files" rabbit hole, btw. FWIW, I decided that it's just too much overhead, too much accidental complexity, and am resolved to move away from this, fast. 19:26:00 *slyrus* boggles at the crazy directory structures and proliferation of files in the java/clojure worlds 19:26:38 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 19:27:26 It makes refactoring a pain because you have to awkwardly move symbols between packages (it didn't help that I insisted on properly uninterning old symbols instead of using the shadowing restart). Your experience might be different if you're comfortable hacking emacs/slime to streamline things, unlike me (especially at the time I decided to do this). 19:29:06 Hexstream: Might also be different if you're willing to blow away your image and do a full recompile every so often. 19:29:21 there's -definitely- a line. Having to go through 3-4 directories just to get to the first source file is pretty awful :) 19:29:26 And you a achieve a sort of "near-purity" but there's always a damn symbol that seems like it belongs in either package/file X or Y, it feels like it belongs "between" these two packages so you might be tempted to create yet another package Z just for that symbol, or at least I was... insanity. 19:29:47 mateo [~mateo@user-0ccslg2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 19:30:16 Hexstream: So, what do you do now, instead of one-package-per-file? 19:30:20 nyef: Yeah, I wasn't really aware of M-x slime-restart-inferior-lisp at the time, I just killed emacs and restarted everything. That may have been a source of a lot of the pain, indeed. 19:30:36 Kill emacs?!? WTF? 19:30:48 nyef: I didn't know jackshit ;) 19:31:31 geez. 19:31:43 My current default strategy is one-package-per-system, and extract topical pieces of functionality into new libraries when it makes sense. 19:31:47 I do ,s-r-i-l every now and then, just as a habit. 19:32:01 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:32:04 although I've been tied to SBCL for this project, and it's pretty painful to do a lot :( 19:32:37 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host94-184-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:33:33 mcsontos_ [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:33 -!- mcsontos_ [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:34:08 Soulman1 [~knute@250.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:34:34 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 19:34:57 Hexstream: I've found one package per system a lot easier since the advent of Quicklisp since I can also make smaller systems. 19:37:23 I try to go for two packages per system (one for the interface and one for the implementation that uses the interface package) 19:37:33 I've thought of using multiple packages to define APIs, but again that seems like some accidental complexity and you sometimes have some things that really belong in 2 APIs at the same time... I think what I'll do is have 1 main package for the project and just have the different APIs in "sub-packages" that reexport the relevant symbols of the main package. 19:37:36 but one package per system does just fine most of the time (: 19:38:54 gigamonkey: I don't really understand how Quicklisp changes things for self-produced systems that you want to use yourself. 19:39:44 Of course it makes the "many small systems" much easier *for others*. 19:40:00 "many small systems" approach. 19:41:58 -!- serichsen [~user@switch1.elmi.uni-bonn.de] has quit [Quit: Feierabend] 19:45:03 Hexstream: well, I would build systems with some eye toward someday distributing them to the world, even if I hadn't yet. 19:45:39 Pre quicklisp I would tend to put things together that sort of made sense like my Markup parsing library along with the code that new know to generate HTML from Markup. 19:45:48 -!- kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.231.88] has left #lisp 19:45:51 Since mostly nobody wants just the former. 19:45:55 kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.231.88] has joined #lisp 19:46:06 gigamonkey: Yeah, that's what I thought. Good point. 19:46:30 But now, I've split them because I know if someone is going to use the HTML generation, Quicklisp will take care of grabbing the base Markup stuff. 19:47:07 -!- kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.231.88] has left #lisp 19:47:13 gigamonkey: FWIW the Markup parsing is what I found most interesting/useful 19:48:21 *Saturnation* hasn't quite gotten my head around the lisp as tree idiom 19:48:32 I think the problem is that the repl keeps pretty it out as a list. :) 19:48:42 Yggdraslisp 19:48:44 milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw80ffc61c.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 19:49:38 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:50:22 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 19:50:56 -!- pnq [~nick@host-185.ssu.portsmouth.oh.us] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:50:59 tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.102.125] has joined #lisp 19:51:39 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-25.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:52:11 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-25.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:52:23 gigamonkey: Seems like systematically "exploding" libraries in many smaller libraries can have some pitfalls, though. One I can think is from a documentation/user friendliness perspective. Let's say you have a "big" HTML library with a representation-as-objects, an interpreter, a compiler, a parser (for raw HTML), and a formatter. 19:53:20 gigamonkey: BTW I'm not sure, but I think there may be a bug in the PCL chapter 32 around `compile-timing-data' wherein (w/ SBCL) if the timing count/total data are effectively 0 the division in the loops final clause may fail. 19:54:37 Do you really want to extract each of these pieces of functionality in different libraries? The user may want many of these cohesive pieces of functionality, and you may not like to end up referring to each other project, NxN-style ("here's the parser, it builds the representation specified in other library X and if you need to pretty-print it you can use library Y")... 19:55:21 You might have a sort of "umbrella project" that pulls all these libraries into a cohesive whole, with "inter-parts" documentation. Anyway, seems like a lot of overhead, perhaps. 19:57:05 Hexstream: But surely with better tools that can trace dependencies between smaller modules this is less of a problem? We can have the best of both worlds building the comprehensive help and also provide access to the little bits and pieces? 19:57:40 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:57:52 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-45-145.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:58:06 stuhacking: Certainly. 19:58:20 Hexstream: w/r/t documentation overhead just this afternoon I began looking into storing class slot documentation separate from the class definition. I personally find slot-documentation very useful but am finding the visual overhead in the source to be really distracting... 19:58:50 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-25.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:59:25 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 20:00:29 antifuchs: The world is improving all the time! Thanks! 20:00:32 mon_key: I agree with the "you seem really fond of complicating things" assessment, FWIW. 20:01:06 wow, it really is improving! nice (-: 20:01:47 mon_key: Do you really get lost so much that docstrings are a lifesaver for you? 20:02:14 I mean, I don't think you can rely on them in general, and all. 20:02:15 I like adding documentation to slots. I don't tend to access them outside of looking at the source, though. 20:02:51 Can you reasonably add documentation to initargs? 20:02:55 Hexstream: its not a matter of "getting lost" so much as knowing that when i come +back+ to something I can ascertain what the use-case was. 20:03:07 -!- leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:04:04 mon_key: I'm happy with the "remember what I meant" + "reconstruct intentions from first principles and from what I can still recall" strategy. 20:04:59 nyef: Yes, in outside documentation! 20:05:16 Okay, that's what I was figuring. 20:05:26 The_Fellow1 [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has joined #lisp 20:05:39 Hexstream: That may be fine for one person. There is far too much underdocumented CL code and yet so much of the code is so good. How does one determine what it does and its use value independent of documentation? 20:05:54 If your interface even exposes that something is represented as a class and has certain initargs in the first place. 20:06:03 Hexstream: nice thing would be for libraries to start converging on common protocols 20:06:09 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.41.186.228.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:06:11 Hexstream: in this case it made pretty good sense because you can use markup-html by itself without really worrying about the code in markup (which does the parsing) 20:06:26 but you can also use just the markup library as the basis for generating some other kind of output. 20:06:58 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip68-231-47-70.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:07:24 -!- The_Fellow [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:07:39 It also means that the markup base library doesn't have to depend on other things that different output generators do (e.g. cl-typesetting for PDF output.) 20:08:23 Hexstream: fundamentally anything that moves toward high-cohesion and low-coupling seems good to me. 20:08:25 p_l|backup: I don't disagree, but on common protocols for what things in particular? 20:08:37 Anyone knows if there had been any real interest in CDR documents, from implementation makers at least 20:08:40 ? 20:09:06 mon_key: could well be a bug in that code. I've never really used it for anything other than writing that chapter. 20:09:12 gigamonkey: Agreed. I'll consider exploding libraries into smaller pieces than what would have been intuitive to me. 20:09:46 Hexstream: For example for libraries implementing graphic file formats. That's just one of the first things that springs to mind. Also, there is already the extensible-sequences protocol in CDR 20:09:56 gigamonkey: NP just passing it along :) 20:10:32 The many-smaller-libraries approach also make it easier for someone to obsolete one of your libraries, which is a good thing for quality. If you make a bigger library that tries to do everything, you have more of a "all-or-nothing" for adoption, I think. 20:11:06 p_l|backup: what is "CDR documents" -- the CDR's or a CDR w/r/t documentation? 20:11:07 Hexstream: yes. Or you yourself. Now I can make a better HTML generation library without touching the version of my base Markup library. 20:11:42 And it can even coexist with my old HTML generation library, if I don't want to change my old apps. 20:12:18 mon_key: http://cdr.eurolisp.org/ 20:13:49 p_l|backup: are you are asking if anyone actually uses/refers-to/implements these? 20:15:42 gigamonkey: WRT obsoleting your stuff yourself, I already try to factor things well so I don't think it makes much of a difference to me for this. WRT coexisting with your old library, that's a good point I didn't consider, however for now my world is pretty much divided into "current, using it" and "legacy, not using it". 20:16:04 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 20:18:04 Maybe "see-also" metadata would be good for Quicklisp. Or a way to specify that a group of libraries can be used separately but are nicely used as part of a cohesive whole. A sort of "guarantee" that "yes, these libraries work very well together, they were designed together". 20:18:52 Similar to "recommends" in debian packages? 20:18:55 Hexstream: That would be outstanding! 20:19:01 nyef: Yeah. 20:19:37 Hexstream: I imagine its also a nightmare to create a reasonable authority for such metadata 20:20:03 It would make the "dilution" effect of exploding libraries into smaller parts less important, thus encouraging this approach more. 20:21:18 how do I add an item to a list? append only append lists 20:21:39 and i'm not sure if '(item) will make it append as a symbol but not the item it represents? 20:21:49 pen: PUSH 20:21:53 (push item list) will prepend... or (append list (list item)) 20:22:02 mon_key: I guess I don't really understand the concern. The library itself would do the recommandation. Of course if a library recommends random stuff that doesn't have anything to do with it really, a slap on the wrists would be in order, but I'm not worried about that. 20:22:53 "it stayed nice and stable for a long time" transcribed as "it stayed vice and stale for a long time" 20:23:04 dlowe: hm 20:23:09 stuhacking: ok 20:23:18 "I like X b/c its BSD. She likes Y because its GPL'd" 20:23:23 -!- xan_ [~xan@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:23:29 Or just CONS if you want to have an "augmented" list without touching the original place... 20:24:36 the license stuff is a very valid concern and suggests an immediate need to partition recomendations. 20:26:12 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@83.240.225.146] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 20:26:53 Hexstream: Whenever I give the "see also" thing consideration I always come back to NT BT RT UF 20:27:39 mon_key: eh? 20:27:54 pen: If you use (cons item list) then you need to remember to point the variable to the new value: (setq *list* (cons item *list*)) 20:28:03 I'd be curious about the stats for the licenses of libraries... Perhaps publication of such a list would prompt projects to correctly indicate licensing terms when not already done, or change to a more popular license if they have a pretty non-standard one? 20:28:22 Quicklisp: The Great Equalizer! 20:28:28 gigamonkey: "Broader Topic", "Narrower Topic", "Related Topic", "Used For", "See From" 20:28:31 pen: If you use PUSH, the (push item *list*) will automatically do this... so it may be shorter to type - but be careful that it destroys the original valueof list 20:28:38 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:29:27 To be more precise, it destroys the pointer to the list, not the list structure itself. 20:29:28 stuhacking: well, is changes the binding of *list* but leaves the old value alone. 20:29:43 Hexstream: Right, my bad 20:29:44 gigamonkey: If you cannonicalize an authority no one will play b/c its invariably too restrictive. So instead you set up categories and let people assign to them arbitrarily 20:30:30 In particular, I'd be interested in knowing if MIT is as prevalent as I think/hope, and GPL as rare as I think/hope. 20:30:31 Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-177-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:30:31 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-177-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:30:31 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 20:30:56 gigamonkey: But, built such that associations among the nodes retain fixed edges. 20:31:49 gigamonkey: http://www.library.illinois.edu/ugl/howdoi/subjectheadings.html 20:32:55 mon_key: Seems like a complicated system, again. What I was suggesting was just for a way to libraries themselves (well, their authors) to recommend other libraries. 20:33:06 for a way for libraries* 20:33:41 Hexstream: the point is that this is the realm of "librarianship" :) 20:34:21 mon_key: I don't understand what that means, or if that's good or bad. 20:37:03 mon_key: I'm beginning to agree with the "mon_key likes to make things complicated" meme. ;-) 20:37:57 Though to be fair, in my youth, my boss wanted to get me business cards that instead of "Engineer" (the standard title for software devs at our company) had "Over Engineer". 20:38:04 Hexstream: for example when authoring a research paper one doesn't arbitrarily research everything. One looks at pre-existing research and xrefs against the problem area at hand. when xrefing existing research that Y published regarding Z does not of itself imply that Y's publication P is relevant to my problem... only that it might be. For example, a few days back I found myself researching R-trees w/r/t a discussion about editor 20:38:04 buffers. I had no idea what these were nor how they could be of use... One needs a way to disambiguate references to R-trees for window placement as opposed to geospatial reasonging. 20:38:40 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 20:39:29 gigamonkey: Do you use the library when authoring your publications? 20:39:42 gigamonkey: Doesn't take much for something to become a meme here! mon_key: You're on the road to stardom already! 20:40:51 mon_key: You're an academic? That might explain some things... 20:41:21 Hexstream: Not at all. 20:41:50 mon_key: occasionally. And I also often use a car or a bike to get to the library. But that doesn't mean adding wheels to everything would be a great idea. 20:42:14 gigamonkey: do you often find what your looking for at the library? 20:42:44 Well, I've usually figured out what I'm looking for via Google. I use the library to get the actual dead trees. 20:42:45 gigamonkey: Or do you browse the shelves... FWIW I find both approaches valid. 20:43:03 The answer to that question is undefined if one doesn't go at libraries. 20:43:29 I'm not saying the scheme you pointed to is too complicated for managing a research library. 20:43:45 I do think it's probably overkill for managing the world-wide collection of Lisp libraries. 20:44:30 -!- seangrove [~user@c-98-234-242-172.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:45:49 With the pace at which things are going in our industry, I'd expect much of what I'd find at a library would be outdated, unless you're looking on books for fundamentals that don't change or unless your library is really good. And physically going to places is something I'd like to avoid, unless it's to keep in shape or something. 20:46:17 Hexstream: what pace? 20:46:22 pnq [~nick@ACA288EE.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 20:46:24 mon_key: Very fast? 20:46:32 At the pace* 20:46:33 Hexstream: I completely disagree 20:46:55 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:47:13 Hexstream: e.g. cons cells/linked-lists haven't changed very much 20:47:22 mon_key: Fundamentals. I mentioned that. 20:48:24 jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.56] has joined #lisp 20:48:26 Hexstream: Fundamentals are hard. 20:48:28 for books on fundamentals* (can't type today?!) 20:48:29 My local library has a book on XLib, but nothing on Html 5. :-) 20:48:58 (of course, it's not an academic/university library) 20:48:58 mon_key: Ok, so what? Google does great for them. Or you buy books of interest. But I wouldn't go at a library... 20:50:07 My local library has no computer books worth mentioning. They also do a interlibrary loan. Lose some, win some. 20:50:28 Hexstream: Google is a library! 20:50:46 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.65.210.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:50:58 mon_key: I think this branch of discussion has reached the point of diminishing returns. 20:51:17 This is lisp. Google is the mighty meta-library: the library that makes libraries! Seriously though, what are you guys really arguing about? 20:51:41 clhs some 20:51:41 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_everyc.htm 20:51:52 Implement NT BT RT UF as keyed index of controlled terms then graph the connections... How is that complicated. 20:52:00 cmm [~cmm@109.65.210.62] has joined #lisp 20:53:25 FWIW cliki has done most of the controlled vocabulary work already... 20:54:57 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:13 e.g. http://www.cliki.net/Current%20recommended%20libraries 20:55:27 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:55:33 programming in lisps makes me feel like a cluts wielding a samurai sword. On the rare occasion I wield it correctly, it's all matrixy "Whoa." 20:55:58 the power of remove-if just hit home :) 20:56:05 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 20:56:11 -!- adobriyan [~ad@vulture2-nat-45.telecom.by] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:58:54 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:59:21 -!- df213 [df213@116.253.158.149] has quit [] 21:00:43 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 21:04:23 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 21:05:41 how to highlight current enclosing parens in emacs? 21:06:17 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 21:06:36 schell: (show-paren-mode t) 21:07:13 sorry - i mean set the selection region around the current enclosing parens 21:07:50 press C-M-u 21:07:52 mon_key pasted "CLiki's recommendend libraries as Broader Topic metadata " at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120855 21:07:59 (but on another note, show-paren-mode highlights the parens when the caret is one column right of a closing paren) 21:09:46 ah, then C-M-@ 21:10:57 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:04 schell: C-M-Space is easier, at least with my layout 21:12:31 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:13:44 a season of not using emacs was long enough for me to lose my bearing 21:14:16 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:17:32 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:18:22 oudeis [~oudeis@93-172-122-199.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 21:20:10 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@93-172-122-199.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Client Quit] 21:20:57 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:21:18 nyef pasted "The CLIM event-handling disaster" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120857 21:21:31 Hrm. 21:21:51 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:22:32 -!- antgreen [~user@nat/redhat/x-fsyeiufdxjepycwi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:22:47 minion: memo for slyrus: http://paste.lisp.org/display/120857 has some notes on CLIM event handling. Feedback would be appreciated. 21:22:47 Remembered. I'll tell slyrus when he/she/it next speaks. 21:22:50 beach: Ping? 21:25:54 minion: memo for beach: http://paste.lisp.org/display/120857 has some notes on CLIM event handling. Feedback would be appreciated. 21:25:54 Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks. 21:27:53 -!- Deltafire [~chris@82-71-44-155.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:29:22 -!- ec is now known as mffingdetective 21:30:02 -!- mffingdetective is now known as elliottcable 21:30:50 -!- sellout [~Adium@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:31:14 sellout [~Adium@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:06 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:33:33 mydik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:41 -!- spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-109-10.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: .] 21:34:06 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:34:51 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:35:08 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:36:37 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C29DE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:36:58 -!- cheezus [~Adium@76-10-163-32.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:38:09 ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 21:38:13 Deltafire [~chris@82-71-44-155.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:39:22 -!- sellout [~Adium@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:39:33 -!- jokoon [~eio@feu30-1-82-242-58-229.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:40:57 Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-177-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:58 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-177-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:40:58 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 21:41:47 oudeis [~oudeis@93-172-122-199.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 21:44:11 -!- vilsonvieira [~vilson@h08100.ifsc.usp.br] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 21:45:06 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@93-172-122-199.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Client Quit] 21:45:25 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.214.177] has joined #lisp 21:47:14 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 21:47:14 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 21:47:14 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 21:47:40 Xach: I'm still not sure I understand what the cause of the "how do I add a colon to a symbol" mindset comes from. Or even what your theory is. 21:47:47 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:48:06 -!- HG` [~HG@dslb-084-061-240-251.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: HG`] 21:49:24 gigamonkey: the same that leads to `(defun foo-,bar ...) 21:50:05 gigamonkey: to one not used to thinking of program source as a data structure, it's all text, and it's not obvious that `, isn't just escaping-aware text 21:50:17 it's not obvious that : isn't just a naming convention 21:50:17 cheezus [~Adium@76-10-163-32.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 21:50:21 -!- cheezus [~Adium@76-10-163-32.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:50:45 and some think that &foo is special 21:51:04 kpreid: I can sort of see it if I squint. But I think there's something weirder/deeper going on. 21:51:09 sadeness [~vik@pdpc/supporter/active/sadeness] has joined #lisp 21:51:25 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@46.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:51:31 stassats`: 'zactly. the beginner does not know, or at least has not internalized, that : is syntax and & is not 21:51:57 pds [~shelta@shpd-92-101-151-30.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 21:52:27 and some beginners are trying to draw parallels to the languages they already know 21:52:37 gigamonkey: mostly that the idea is to produce new source text that looks like the desired external text 21:53:03 gigamonkey: rather than thinking about what object is read/constructed and constructing that. 21:53:05 Xach: for data literals, I guess. 21:53:24 pkhuong's is a good example of the thinking 21:53:35 -!- mydik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:53:41 Though I think something very like pkhuong's example works in Clojure. 21:54:20 There's nothing that says the symbol reader couldn't have been intertwingled with reader macros such as backquote. 21:55:04 Xach: I guess the thing I still find interesting is why that's their instinct. 21:55:15 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 21:55:17 Presumably because hand editing text is the only reference point they have for producing code. 21:55:31 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:55:35 gigamonkey: i wonder if it's thinking like constructing a string to pass to some other language's eval 21:55:42 But it's not because that's how you do it in other languages, except, I suppose, in particulary goofy CPP macros. 21:55:46 like eval("sub make_$foo { ... }") 21:55:51 mydik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:55:54 Xach: that could be. 21:57:10 gigamonkey: cpp doesn't work that way, unless you explicitly ask for token concatenation. 21:57:12 sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:13 #define DEFINE_INSTRUCTION(opcode) void instruction_##opcode(struct cpu_state *state) 21:57:41 *nyef* used to do that sort of thing /all the time/. 21:58:07 amb007 [~a_bakic@176.29.195-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:13 hah. at least once a month here (: 21:58:14 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw80ffc61c.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:58:15 pkhuong: thus the "goofy" 21:58:18 Such things confused MSVC intellisense no end, and the semantic bovinator used by ECB, and so on. 21:58:38 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:59:28 In ye olden days, you could paste things together in cpp without ##. :) 21:59:59 it didn't preserve "tokenness" on output, it just generated a text stream. 22:00:02 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:00:20 -!- mydik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:01:33 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:02:41 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:02:43 Well, yes, but that was, what, a quarter century ago? 22:02:54 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:32 Bet you had to walk ten miles to and from school barefoot, in the snow, uphill both ways. 22:03:54 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:03:55 Phoodus [~foo@ip68-231-47-70.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:05:08 nyef: and punch cards and tape by hand! 22:06:00 Fair point. s/school/data center/. 22:06:12 *meingbg* wonders how much of today's _industry_ programming practice was not invented a quarted century ago 22:06:27 meingbg: Probably depends on the industry. 22:06:52 All our tools are at least a quarter century old. 22:06:57 Kenjin [~josesanto@a89-155-149-57.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 22:07:14 stuhacking: GPGPU as well? 22:07:16 stuhacking: some tools in financial markets aren't 22:07:39 nyef: GPGPU is more like GPU getting modified towards DSP 22:07:49 Yeah, yeah. 22:08:07 in fact, GPGPU is actually a turn back to some of the oldest accelrated graphic systems 22:08:15 nyef: I'm sure someone will argue they're "just like" connection machines. 22:09:39 IMHO GPGPU definitely isn't like CM, even if some of the techniques apply 22:10:11 p_l|backup: Do I know you IRL? 22:10:34 xan_ [~xan@156.Red-83-35-102.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:06 GPGPU is more like "huge mass of DSP" 22:11:39 p_l|home [~pl@213.5.11.129] has joined #lisp 22:11:40 stuhacking: doubtful 22:12:37 though you are connected through BT, so I suspect we have higher chances of meeting before than most people here other than those that are also in #lisp-pl :) 22:12:58 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d002c6e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:13:06 p_l|backup: yeah...long shot. 'financial markets' sounded like a department name at my work 22:13:51 hah 22:14:10 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:14:45 Recently, Haskell has been gaining popularity in various financial-oriented work,, joining Scheme and Ocaml. Mainly in the forecasting and other maths-heavy and fast-changing areas 22:16:08 and haskell is well... a little under two decades old? Definitely less than 25yo. And the basis of current language is from '98, and isn't current anymore (glory be to GHC!) 22:16:11 -!- jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:16:24 MMx529 [~MMx@c-174-61-27-111.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:58 Well, I can't say that the insurance industry has made any major action to shift away from C++ or Java (1.4). I've heard the occasional wistful mention of Scala 22:17:42 I love me some LOOP but I do not like the hash table iteration constructs. 22:18:35 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:20:16 Depends in what area exactly - a huge chunk of banking runs on COBOL, some of it (SWIFT) runs on machines that have OS programmed in ALGOL, with the cpu being a relative (through basic design idea) of iAPX432 and various Lisp Machines, then there's the ubiquitous Java, then mass of various languages used to implement the algorithms designed by the mathematicians... there's at least one insurance company that uses Smalltalk, and probably more 22:21:56 -!- milanj [~milanj_@178-223-172-123.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:22:54 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-45-145.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:23:26 I love the idea of having some part of our product running on a Lisp Machine. I think we still have some COBOL. The aim seems to be moving to a complete Java stack. C++ services are gradually being replaced with Websphere Process Server. 22:23:32 gigamonkey: it's time for LOOP 2.0 Reloaded 22:23:34 I suppose that's more money in IBM's pocket anyway :) 22:24:22 tcr [~tcr@100.Red-88-6-12.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:35 stuhacking: heh. A lot of that COBOL replacement might replace the routines written in obscure dialects that no one remembers, but still run on the same OS :D 22:24:43 danieljones [~danieljon@qld13-adsl-181.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:24:46 -!- MMx529 [~MMx@c-174-61-27-111.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: http://irc2go.com/] 22:24:47 -!- tcr [~tcr@100.Red-88-6-12.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 22:25:03 tcr [~tcr@100.Red-88-6-12.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:24 'aix and pains' 22:25:30 ;0 22:25:49 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@95-84-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:26:37 stuhacking: actually, I was thinking "Multiple Virtual Storage" and what it evolved into. aka z/OS. and z/VM. And TPF. Especially TPF 22:29:47 timack [~tim@hlfx50-2-142177100208.ppp-dynamic.dial.ns.bellaliant.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:21 -!- stuhacking [~stuhackin@host86-130-225-151.range86-130.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: stuhacking] 22:30:44 lemoinem [~swoog@100-73-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 22:31:38 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.148.219] has joined #lisp 22:34:53 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip68-231-47-70.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:35:34 MMx814 [~MMx@c-174-61-27-111.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:38:13 damn, my backup shell is too lousy today 22:40:01 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.148.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:42:31 -!- MMx814 [~MMx@c-174-61-27-111.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: http://irc2go.com/] 22:42:50 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-166-255.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:43:32 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:43:39 iwillig [~ivan@ool-18b944f4.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:00 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A40E2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:46:01 *p_l|home* ponders if his z/OS dev. account is still current, or did IBM cut contestants out already 22:47:50 are you porting SBCL to z/OS? 22:49:02 mathrick [~mathrick@dynamic-87-105-160-199.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has joined #lisp 22:52:27 -!- ludacris- [~giatrio@ppp-94-68-249-72.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:52:35 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:55:03 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:55:06 youguy [~youguy@157.pool85-56-97.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 23:00:39 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.148.219] has joined #lisp 23:01:11 stassats`: no, but I've been in a contest (called IBM Mainframe Challenge) 23:01:36 it's a rather... interesting environment 23:02:19 and some of the CL features that are sometimes reviled by newcomers (like :external-format, or the very flexible pathname system) would be very, very useful there 23:02:59 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:03:17 *stassats`* shudders at "flexible pathname system" 23:04:37 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:05:13 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 23:05:38 -!- youguy [~youguy@157.pool85-56-97.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 23:06:16 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.148.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:06:39 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.148.219] has joined #lisp 23:06:57 -!- jweiss [~user@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:06:58 hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.121.111] has joined #lisp 23:07:39 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-193-241-28.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:09:58 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 23:11:50 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-193-241-28.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:27 p_l|home: do you do CL stuff for IBM (AIX/power) too? 23:13:05 hypno: unfortunately no 23:13:13 looks like the port of SBCL to Blue Gene still isn't integrated 23:13:40 I had some contact with AIX hardware (POWER5 or POWER6, don't know which config we had) 23:13:52 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@bb116-14-191-157.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:14:15 I actually scored some points in recrutation when they found out I had some Alpha experience :) 23:15:05 p_l|home: ah, ok. i may do some work for it soon. i mostly do solaris/sparc) but aix/power is an alternative. but then: what CL runs on good on aix? 23:15:17 *stassats`* hopes for some on-topic points 23:15:59 rootlocus [~rootlocus@240218000001280102264afffe09eee2.ptr-ipv6.nicta.net] has joined #lisp 23:16:04 Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-177-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:16:04 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-177-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 23:16:04 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 23:18:03 -!- Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has quit [Quit: changing servers] 23:18:25 Dodek [~dodek@2001:6a0:5001:1::3] has joined #lisp 23:18:37 -!- p_l|home [~pl@213.5.11.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:19:06 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:19:06 I've wondered about porting ccl to AIX systems. The address space layout of AIX is pretty strange, though. (At least it was when I last looked.) 23:19:11 p_l|home [~pl@213.5.11.129] has joined #lisp 23:19:24 *Xach* wonders about A/UX 23:20:00 -!- ldh [~ldh@static-217-37.vpn.wisc.edu] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 23:20:36 francogrex [~user@109.130.192.99] has joined #lisp 23:21:16 rme: heh. sounds like a hard project but very cool. 23:21:37 -!- systemaddict [~anonymous@208.74.177.139.static.etheric.net] has left #lisp 23:21:42 Xach: unfortunately, A/UX is dead. So very dead 23:21:50 Xach: but it would run old MCL, though 23:21:58 A probably more relevant project would be getting ccl to run on Linux/ppc with 64K pages. 23:22:32 yeah 23:23:11 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:24:08 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.148.219] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:24:52 rme: yeah. as far as commercial unixes goes, solaris/sparc is probably a better target as well. if you aim to attract users that is. 23:24:56 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@a89-155-149-57.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:25:16 The trick is to attract the paying users. :-) 23:25:35 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:26:18 It would be fun to do a port to modern sparc, but the chance that I'll get to work on that seems pretty remote. 23:26:20 I thought linux had a huge market share in that area 23:26:27 something like 90%+ 23:26:27 sure. but it follows ipso facto that oracle sun customers have money. they wouldnt be running it otherwise. :) 23:26:54 do they need CL? 23:27:10 well, i do, but my situation is special i guess. 23:27:35 ccl does run on solaris/x86, of course. 23:27:43 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Quit: eugu] 23:27:47 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@100-73-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:28:03 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:28:03 -!- p_l|home [~pl@213.5.11.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:28:26 porting to something like Plan9 would be more kinky 23:28:41 p_l|home [~pl@213.5.11.129] has joined #lisp 23:29:08 rme: was work on the arm port paid? 23:29:41 stassats`: no, it was self-funded. 23:29:41 -!- Dodek [~dodek@2001:6a0:5001:1::3] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:29:50 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.87.99] has joined #lisp 23:30:14 jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has joined #lisp 23:30:18 what i miss is ccl on netbsd/amd64 or i386. that would rule. i tryied to port it myself, but netbsd is lacking a few things to make a port easy. :/ 23:30:43 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 23:30:46 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:31:14 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:32:03 -!- Soulman1 [~knute@250.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 23:32:09 sbcl should work on netbsd 23:32:11 (ie, fenv* was missing last time i tryied; there are some kernel stuff that is not available, ie, getting a GDT entry; register descriptions are different...) 23:33:10 yeah, sbcl kind of work but it's a bit shaky on it. lack of threads are the biggest issue of course. 23:33:24 Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 23:33:38 do you really use netbsd? 23:33:51 yes, of course i do. :) 23:34:00 hypno: unfortunately, the only lisps that I *know* that will work (or work with little modification) are clisp, [D andecl 23:34:10 (on AIX, that is) 23:34:17 hypno: because it's more cool and hip? 23:34:22 also, AIX is a very fine platform for attracting *paying* customers 23:34:56 stassats`: because i've been a netbsd user for close to a decade and it generally does what i need with less fuss than just about anything else? (not that i'm a fan of unix systems in general, but...) 23:35:04 the same for SPARC. IA64 is basically dead 23:35:13 hypno: well, it doesn't have a good CL implementation, for starters 23:35:51 stassats`: well, true. besides that i think it is a fine platform. and i also think ccl/sbcl-linux could be made to run on it... 23:36:05 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 23:36:14 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.192.99] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:36:15 p_l|backup: yeah. sparc has scl tho, so it's covered. 23:36:28 *stassats`* would rather see the energy spent on something more interesting 23:36:39 ... I so hate my internet today 23:36:53 *stassats`* isn't interested when someone is working on something which i wouldn't find useful 23:38:53 hypno: technically, a certain idea of mine would effectively provide an implementation that would work fine on AIX, but it would be a bytecoded implementation. And unless someone would write assembly for POWER, it wouldn't exactly be fvery fast. 23:39:09 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.148.219] has joined #lisp 23:40:02 ideas are cheap, show me the code! 23:40:12 -!- Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:40:18 Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 23:40:33 stassats`: will do once I get free of my current entanglements 23:40:36 *stassats`* is hungry for cool CL projects 23:41:05 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-76-242-89-167.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 23:41:12 and yeah, I'm hungry too 23:42:38 why can't I pass #'and to reduce, but I can wrap it in a lambda? 23:42:58 Saturnation: Because it's a macro, not a function. 23:43:01 Try #'every ? 23:43:06 clhs every 23:43:06 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_everyc.htm 23:43:06 ah, thanks 23:43:32 that about that, but mushy brain thought I was going in the wrong direction 23:43:40 (notany #'null list)? 23:44:07 ... Do I remember correctly that gtk requires that drawing operations occur in the message-handling thread? 23:45:36 nyef: i believe so 23:45:59 nyef: it's a good practice as a general rule and most UI systems require it; I know Swing does too 23:46:14 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:47:00 vsync: more like "they were written without consideration for multiple threads" 23:47:06 It's a very annoying practice. 23:48:00 I'm sure there are reasons for it, but it has gotten in my way more than once. 23:48:05 I think Windows.Forms and Windows Presentation Foundation are two UI systems that actually handle multiple threads doing UI work 23:48:14 Hrm. Actually, the FAQ seems to say that GTK+ is plausibly thread-safe, but needs some locking and such. 23:48:17 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 23:48:27 -!- tr3x [~tr3x@78-0-210-128.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:49:09 Having to marshal graphics operations across a thread boundary would suck horribly. 23:49:19 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:50:07 still, the best way for multithreaded GTK without locking seems to be use of gtk-server ;-) 23:50:27 Okay, generally not going there now anyway. 23:50:44 -!- jleija is now known as jleija_away 23:52:18 tr3x [~tr3x@93-138-77-198.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 23:55:32 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:56:11 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-193-241-28.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:56:57 -!- Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:58:03 Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-177-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:03 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-177-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 23:58:03 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp