00:06:15 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.75.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:07:07 lemoinem [~swoog@176-74-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 00:07:40 heh. I could've gone the other way and tried to see what was stopping tpd2 from loading. Clobbered 4 lines (which were, ironically, macros that translated old parenscript operations to the same name that PS now uses). Just ran the test suite and found no javascript-related errors. Only one test failed. 00:11:12 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-182-139.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 00:12:59 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 00:13:13 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:14:58 -!- tenawa [~user@adsl-75-53-123-94.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 00:15:47 sykopomp: ooh, see if you can get a pull 00:16:42 Xach: I wasn't so succesful at doing a hello world in CCL, although it seemed to be trivial-backtrace's fault. Compiling for SBCL now to see how it goes. 00:17:30 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:30 Adamant [~Adamant@97-83-97-117.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:18:30 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@97-83-97-117.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 00:18:30 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 00:20:21 -!- sigjuice_ [~sigjuice@c-71-198-22-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:20:34 sigjuice [~sigjuice@c-71-198-22-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:21:01 Ah, Python. It's been too long since we talked. Guess I'll go have a sandwich and notify later. I'll see if vii accepts my patch once this works. :) 00:21:44 ... note to self: Buy a bluetooth keyboard soon. 00:22:10 nefo [~nefo@202.112.3.6] has joined #lisp 00:22:11 -!- nefo [~nefo@202.112.3.6] has quit [Changing host] 00:22:11 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 00:27:00 ephcon [~ephcon@fredri.cc] has joined #lisp 00:27:31 Hunden [~Hunden@e180099092.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 00:28:09 lifeng [~lifeng@155.69.43.70] has joined #lisp 00:35:32 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp2364.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 00:37:47 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:38:01 -!- euangelion [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:38:34 longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has joined #lisp 00:39:56 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 00:44:35 -!- myu2 [~myu2@v078198.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:47:05 http://www.reddit.com/r/programminglolz/comments/fv9ud/trolling_complanglisp_it_works_every_time/ 00:48:35 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:48:57 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 00:49:38 euangelion [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:52:27 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-182-139.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:53:15 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has left #lisp 00:54:33 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 00:54:48 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.59.215.244] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:56:59 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-ff2fc100-74.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:57:12 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-ff2fc100-74.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 00:58:00 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.224.237] has joined #lisp 01:02:37 -!- nixfreak [~nixfreak@mn-10k-dhcp1-3174.dsl.hickorytech.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 01:04:46 -!- timack [~tim@hlfx62-1-116.ns.sympatico.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:05:13 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483C508.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:06:10 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@adsl-32-14-244.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 01:06:11 Atomsk [ace4016@adsl-32-14-244.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:40 nixfreak_ [~nixfreak@mn-10k-dhcp1-3174.dsl.hickorytech.net] has joined #lisp 01:11:32 milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 01:12:56 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Client Quit] 01:25:21 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:27:21 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-74-247.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 01:27:48 nixfreak pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120612 01:27:59 trying to load slime 01:28:24 I used the debug-init and didn't tell me much 01:28:29 nixfreak_: (setq inferior-lisp-program "/usr/local/bin/") 01:28:29 using sbcl 01:28:31 your inferior-lisp-program is invalid 01:28:40 nixfreak_: shouldn't that have the exe on it? 01:28:50 <_3b> "/usr/local/bin/" doesn't look like a normal sbcl executable name 01:29:00 its in bin 01:29:17 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 01:29:20 <_3b> you should probably also load slime-fance or at least slime-repl in slime-setup 01:29:20 -!- Sereal [~sereal_J@fctnnbsc30w-198164211116.dhcp-dynamic.FibreOp.nb.bellaliant.net] has left #lisp 01:29:41 nixfreak_: try (setq inferior-lisp-program "/usr/local/bin/sbcl") 01:30:25 k 01:31:04 How do you guys handle concurrency nowadays? 01:31:17 does the slime dir look ok ? 01:31:40 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:47 cannot open load file name slime 01:33:49 hmm 01:35:59 <_3b> you might be better off with slime in a user directory 01:36:25 <_3b> oops, missed the ~ 01:37:47 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:38:10 its slime that won't load 01:38:23 is it maybe because I have slime/ 01:38:30 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 01:38:39 <_3b> where? 01:39:09 <_3b> if slime.el isn't in ~/usr/.../slime-2011-03-17/, i'd expect problems 01:39:23 it is 01:47:39 -!- jsoftw [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:47:58 can I see someones .emacs for slime please 01:47:58 Mococa [~Mococa@189.59.215.244] has joined #lisp 01:48:09 just to see if I am loading this correct 01:48:11 check slime's site 01:48:14 I did 01:48:18 there's an example there 01:48:28 <_3b> what does your .emacs look like now? 01:48:44 <_3b> and what specific error do you get? 01:49:06 when i debug I get cannot load file slim 01:49:13 slime 01:50:04 <_3b> paste exact messages to lisppaste, including context 01:50:45 <_3b> and exact .emacs that generated it 01:51:16 k 01:51:26 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-50-127-150.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:51:27 <_3b> making us guess whether you made the changes the way we intended, or whether you misread/mistranscribed an error, etc just wastes both our times :) 01:51:38 -!- seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:51:45 psilord [~psilord@76.201.144.30] has joined #lisp 01:51:47 I pasted the changes 01:51:57 didn't go through I guess 01:52:28 <_3b> it didm you just didn't specify a channel 01:54:10 _3b: thanks for the tip about representing the permutations with matrices. 01:55:37 If I combine each rotation matrix with each reflection matrix (including the identity matrix as a reflection matrix), multiplying AB and BA and then eliminate all the duplicates, I am left with eight unique permutations. 01:57:04 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-182-139.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 01:58:06 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:02:00 <_3b> nixfreak_: you forgot the error messages though (just annotate http://paste.lisp.org/+2L2D rather than making a new paste though) 02:03:27 everytime i try to paste from emacs I get the number 7 02:08:06 -!- hashrocket [~anonymous@208.74.177.139.static.etheric.net] has quit [Quit: hashrocket] 02:08:17 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:08:40 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h134n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 02:10:23 jsoftw [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 02:10:35 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 02:12:10 nixfreak pasted ".emacs error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120614 02:13:25 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:13:29 -!- naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:16:23 -!- Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:16:27 nixfreak_: You should have annotated the original paste. But anyway, that error says slime.el isn't where you think it is. 02:16:43 hmm 02:16:54 cheezus [~Adium@76-10-163-32.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 02:17:00 naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has joined #lisp 02:17:10 Is slime.el really in "~/usr/local/lib/sbcl/slime-2011-03-17/"? Note the leading ~. 02:18:40 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:20:13 yes 02:20:38 oh wait yea I see the screw up 02:20:49 I feel dumb 02:22:22 So, what's the stupid mistake? 02:22:41 ~ 02:22:51 sorry for wasting your time guys 02:23:01 -!- keyvan [~keyvan@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:23:04 Heh. We all make stupid mistakes. :-) 02:23:35 QinGW [~wangqingw@60.247.26.3] has joined #lisp 02:24:11 Adamant [~Adamant@97-83-97-117.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:24:11 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@97-83-97-117.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 02:24:11 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 02:24:14 Isnt it compulsary? 02:24:16 keyvan [~keyvan@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:31 If it were not for stupid mistakes, wed make progress far too quickly. 02:24:38 And things would be too easy. 02:24:43 and slopy 02:24:44 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:54 its loading now very cool 02:26:29 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@fredri.cc] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:26:31 Whats loading? 02:27:57 slime 02:28:10 loading the contribs now that I know it woks 02:28:13 works 02:28:32 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:28:59 -!- davertron [~david@c-24-218-166-166.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:35:06 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:35:38 -!- alama [~alama@a79-169-94-144.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: alama] 02:35:46 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:35:49 kushal [~kdas@114.143.165.50] has joined #lisp 02:35:49 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.165.50] has quit [Changing host] 02:35:49 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 02:37:17 -!- naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:38:07 naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has joined #lisp 02:38:56 jaminja [~jaminja@unaffiliated/jaminja] has joined #lisp 02:46:14 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:46:49 -!- lambda is now known as platypine 02:50:33 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:51:47 -!- xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:53:28 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-49-13-243.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:33 -!- mtd_ is now known as mtd 02:56:16 evening 02:56:28 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sbahra] 02:56:33 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:56:35 symbole [~user@ool-182ff693.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:59:39 milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 03:01:22 Hello slyrus. 03:04:00 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:08:06 Evening slyrus 03:08:48 dmiles_akf [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:27 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:10:51 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:11:59 ravic [~ravi@118-93-167-37.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:14:11 -!- dmiles_akf [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:15:05 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-136-42.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:17 pnq [~nick@ACA21BAF.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 03:17:35 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.224.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:17:39 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 03:19:43 hashrocket [~anonymous@76.14.65.208] has joined #lisp 03:19:49 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 03:21:33 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:49 cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.139.95.133] has joined #lisp 03:26:19 wobh [~user@97-120-5-5.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:28:28 -!- Hunden [~Hunden@e180099092.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:30:49 -!- paradoja [~paradoja@acceso-cmp174-132.lpa.idec.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:30:51 -!- hashrocket [~anonymous@76.14.65.208] has quit [Quit: hashrocket] 03:32:30 Hunden [~Hunden@e180098105.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 03:33:34 seems quiet. 03:33:51 -!- wobh [~user@97-120-5-5.ptld.qwest.net] has left #lisp 03:36:22 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 03:36:24 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-64-222-180-202.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 03:38:15 madrik [~madrik@122.168.188.254] has joined #lisp 03:38:17 tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:39:39 -!- Jubb [~ghost@c-98-204-160-127.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:40:26 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:43:41 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.80.77] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:44:17 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 03:45:21 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.80.63] has joined #lisp 03:47:45 gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.222.19] has joined #lisp 03:50:25 -!- wanderingelf [4817e03d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.23.224.61] has left #lisp 03:51:35 *slyrus* is still trying to think a clean way to dispatch on array type (element-type x rank) 03:52:06 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.222.19] has quit [Client Quit] 03:53:32 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:55:58 gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.222.19] has joined #lisp 04:05:54 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 04:07:30 any use any libraries for html/css printing of lisp code? e.g. lisppaste? 04:07:53 *_3b* has used the code from lisppaste 04:08:25 <_3b> i think there is a version of it called 'colorize' available, but i seem to remember lisppaste having newer code 04:10:26 -!- Euthydemus` [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:10:43 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 04:15:13 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.80.63] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:16:58 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.84.114] has joined #lisp 04:18:01 dmiles_akf [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:19:46 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:20:52 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:22:50 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:23:44 -!- dmiles_akf [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:24:22 ldunn [ldunn@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 04:24:50 cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.78] has joined #lisp 04:24:58 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.78] has quit [Changing host] 04:24:58 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 04:26:06 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:27:33 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:32:17 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:36:51 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:38:35 youguy [~youguy@59.pool85-56-15.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 04:39:17 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:40:29 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:46:55 -!- gz` [gz@clozure-93943513.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout] 04:47:05 -!- rme [rme@clozure-CEC398A4.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 14:37:29 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 14:37:29 14:37:29 -!- names: ccl-logbot superflit longfin bozhidar dmiles_afk muhdick rme McMAGIC-- schaueho mydik tritchey rmarianski leo2007 vilsonvieira dmytrish__ lanthan milkpost tauntaun Odin- Adamant sellout realitygrill LiamH orivej bhyde drdo dlowe Jasko tr3x_ rtoym gravicappa woudshoo stassats Joreji npoektop bobbysmith007 longshot SpitfireWP MoALTz Yuuhi ZabaQ HET2 gemelen skeptical_p Kenjin ch077179 Aiwass seejay arbscht tcr yvdriess ignas ramkrsna Liera` Jacke mvilleneuve 14:37:29 -!- names: jsoftw aimxhaisse aerique cfy Hun gozek Spion_ Ragnaroek e-user insomniaSalt nha kpreid mishoo_ Beetny relcomp pnkfelix mrSpec Buganini varjag Davsebamse jdz _dev0_ mcsontos Hunden ace4016 ldunn theBlackDragon Euthydemus BlankVerse slyrus jaminja naryl keyvan psilord gigamonkey echo-area nixfreak_ V-ille euangelion Amadiro sigjuice lemoinem fisted timjstewart amb007 pchrist katesmith oconnore jabirali s0ber Evious gz` qebab mon_key cnl tc ray24 hramrach_ 14:37:29 -!- names: masonium daniel_ easyE tsuru bzzbzz tty234 antgreen Posterdati jsoft _akimbo Pepe_ Zeiris Patzy aidalgol xristos_ peterhil` danlentz churib Quadrescence beach [df] schmrkc Ralith guther billstclair pavlvs zenlunatic johanbev c|mell cmatei redline6561 Deltafire Krystof mathrick Jabberwockey rasterbar akimbo hargettp_ Salamander cods JuanDaugherty djinni` Xach incandenza mal__ pp206 yan_ lonstein lianj Kovensky larva TDT |3b| cmm pjb rootzlevel metasyntax 14:37:29 -!- names: Xantoz hugod Nshag Fullma ezakimak nome jnoos vsync vert2 Tristam Khisanth mpereira xinming kleppari CallToPower specbot Dodek colazero oGMo ``Erik Boxo scode cpach thijso rsynnott strlen kanru _8david ianmcorvidae|alt levi Obfuscate PissedNumlock aoh Yamazaki-kun df_aldur coffeemug rbancroft ASau` ivan4th lnostdal Ginei_Morioka jayne AntiSpamMeta zakwilson albino trigen rotty cibs antifuchs Tordek dostoyevsky ve fihi09`` luis shachaf blackwolf cYmen 14:37:29 -!- names: froggey lundis Taggnostr2 p_l|backup jwdunne poindont` fe[nl]ix johs sykopomp The_Fellow snorble_ derrida araujo hohum gnooth sonnym nowhereman cbbrowne bfein minion lisppaste rien clog CrazyEddy quasisane Guest49654 joast faulevel cpt_nemo jsnell clop nuba _2x2l joshe srcerer zbigniew abeaumont euphidime BrianRice prip peddie sid3k eno marienz ineiros twem2 museun dRbiG freiksenet ec|detached tessier quotemstr Bucciarati galdor j_king pkhuong jrockway krl 14:37:29 -!- names: fmu felipe zfx yahooooo tychoish rabite adeht timchen1` dcrawford k9quaint tomaw koollman Borbus tic cataska reb ecraven qsun jamief cmbntr guaqua Adrinael jeekl ramus fds DrForr mornfall Aisling Fade huehnts akkartik ilmari andreer phadthai hyko algorist_ kae setheus simontwo_ ozzloy acieroid foom antoszka deepfire spacebat em rafusy mtd nullman` kencausey ejohnson kloeri krappie__ erk mgr pok_ tvaalen housel PuffTheMagic _3b micro Zhivago herbie_ 14:37:36 tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has joined #lisp 14:37:49 bozhidar: (loop with generator = (prime-number-generator) for prime = (funcall generator) until (> prime 100) do (format t "~a~%" prime)) 14:38:11 reb: (let ((value (let ((*read-eval* nil)) (read-from-string text)))) (check-type value float) value) 14:38:20 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.40] has joined #lisp 14:38:36 reb: notice that since text is of finite size, read-from-string should be safe, with *read-eval* set to nil. 14:38:36 bozhidar: does that answer your question? 14:38:51 <_3b> pjb: #1234567() ? 14:39:08 dlowe: I'm trying to understand the code. It reminds me a bit of Python generator functions 14:39:27 pjb: I worry that random characters might raise exceptions. 14:39:30 _3b: this safely signals an error because you didn't specify 1234567 elements inside the list. 14:39:42 bozhidar: sure. that's one way to code an infinite sequence 14:39:46 pbj: or the empty string, for instance. 14:39:50 <_3b> pjb: are you sure? (sbcl disagrees, and i'm pretty sure spec says it defaults to nil) 14:39:55 reb: (let ((value (ignore-errors (let ((*read-eval* nil)) (read-from-string text))))) (check-type value float) value) 14:40:06 tfb [~tfb@92.41.64.60.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:40:09 bozhidar: there's also a package called SERIES that provides what you probably expect 14:40:24 <_3b> clhs #( 14:40:24 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhc.htm 14:41:10 _3b: you need to specify at least one element: #1234567(nil) would be bad. 14:41:22 <_3b> right, was just typing that :) 14:41:28 reb: so, ok, you might have to neutralize the reader macros. 14:41:46 with-standard-io-syntax ? 14:41:53 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-157-151.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:42:02 <_3b> reb: no, this is problems specific to the standard syntax 14:42:05 dlowe: 10x, I'll have a look at it. I've been playing around with functional languages like Haskell & Clojure for a bit and I was impressed by the built-in support for lazy data structures/function calls 14:42:18 starting with it, but you would also have to loop on the characters (all or just those found in the text, whichever is smaller). 14:43:15 mephistophocles [~mephistop@ec2-50-17-225-30.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 14:43:42 with unicode, it's probably better to use the text set: (loop for ch in text do (set-macro-character ch nil t my-readtable)) 14:46:05 pjb: I suppose that approach is more simple than the 50 lines of code I wrote to verify a string satisfies the float grammar. 14:46:13 -!- superflit [~superflit@72.42.68.162] has quit [Quit: superflit] 14:46:45 reb: foremost, I bet you forgot (floatp #C(1.2 0)) --> T 14:47:26 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-064-186-077.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:47:33 Actually, for the application I have in mind, I don't want that. 14:47:37 But if you remove all the reader macros, it won't matter. 14:47:45 :-) 14:48:11 pjb: What? Why should (floatp #c(1.2 0)) be T? 14:48:30 Because it's not a imaginary number. 14:48:53 SBCL for one disagrees. 14:49:00 What? It is a complex number. 14:49:14 Maybe you meant (integerp #c(2 0)) 14:49:19 clhs complex: "The imaginary part can be a float zero, but can never be a rational zero, for such a number is always represented by Common Lisp as a rational rather than a complex." 14:49:39 I also mean that, but (floatp #c(1.2 0)) must be true too. 14:50:06 <_3b> except that the types are converted to match 14:50:18 I thought the complex rationalization only applied to rational components. 14:50:20 pjb: float contagion rules. 14:50:28 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:50:43 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 14:50:50 Ok, then it's a bug in clisp. 14:50:51 <_3b> and it describes contagion as applying to the parts during construction, and conversion back to rational as applying to the full object 14:51:15 *_3b* wonders if that is clisp's strange contagion stuff 14:51:18 Yes, it seems logical contagion has priority. 14:51:51 What is "logical contagion"? 14:52:41 eparse 14:52:45 <_3b> setting custom:*floating-point-contagion-ansi* doesn't seem to affect it 14:54:23 <_3b> ah, i guess it specifically documents it behaving that way 14:54:54 Yuck. That's one thing I hate about clisp. 14:55:11 <_3b> ( http://www.gnu.org/software/clisp/impnotes/num-concepts.html#complex-rational ) 14:56:09 Although this is kind of cool: (complex 1 pi) gives rational realpart and a long-float complex part. 14:56:27 *_3b* likes how they do all these non-conformant things, then refuse Inf and NaN support on 'portability' grounds :p 14:56:35 srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:59 Haha! 14:57:17 Well, apart for conformity, there'd be no joy if all the implementations worked the same... 14:57:33 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:57:34 Well, maybe they meant HW portability. Clisp runs (or used to) run on all kinds of HW. 14:58:21 <_3b> yeah, not saying there might not be justification for it, just amusing :) 14:59:37 *_3b* disagrees that 'NaN' means 'broken' as they claim though 15:00:26 *rtoym* wonders why the canonical representation for complex rationals was defined. 15:01:09 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-030-102.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:06 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:02:38 rtoym: Yes, it (seems logical) (contagion has priority). 15:04:56 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 15:07:45 -!- bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:08:44 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:06 -!- gozek [~quassel@85.52.166.111] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:10:05 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 15:10:17 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-030-102.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:12:08 cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.139.95.133] has joined #lisp 15:15:11 -!- leo2007 [~leo@114.249.193.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:17:15 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:17:33 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.149.223] has joined #lisp 15:18:32 milanj [~milanj_@109-92-126-186.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 15:18:54 frx [~5d887cf0@ns1.smartcall.bg] has joined #lisp 15:20:51 hello. is list refering to a non-function in all cases but when it's preceded by (\s* and #'\s* ? 15:23:06 *_3b* doesn't really understand the question, but suspects that is not correct, and would require a code-walker to determine accurately 15:23:54 is list refering to a standard function list only when it's preceded by (\s* and #\s* ? 15:24:05 -!- aerique [310225@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:24:27 can you think of any other case? 15:24:32 <_3b> well, it could be list fom some package other than CL 15:24:52 <_3b> a macro could put the symbol list somewhere it would refer to the function 15:25:13 <_3b> it could be used as a symbol, which is passed to something that would use it as the name of a function 15:25:16 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.149.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 253 seconds] 15:25:26 frx: what are you really tring to do? 15:25:32 *_3b* would have to check all the special forms to see if there were other cases 15:26:07 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-koqsxazelubxjznt] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:26:39 I'm trying to fix vim's syntax highlighting. it is highlightning standard functions like list in all cases, even when it's obviously not refering to a function, for example (setf list '(1 2 3)) 15:27:25 Ahh. In that case, just start adding rules until things look good. It's heuristic. 15:27:38 <_3b> ah, for something like that rough heuristic is probably good enough 15:27:46 -!- sellout [~Adium@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:28:23 <_3b> (or at least 'as good as you are going to get' if not 'good enough) 15:28:32 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:29:34 <_3b> places where it would be preceded by ( but not mean the function might be common though, lambda lists, let bindings, etc 15:29:41 i will try. but now that I think about it, (defun foo (list)) could give me problems. 15:30:08 yes 15:30:33 frx: right. emacs gets that wrong frequently too. 15:30:50 *Xach* most recently saw (define-condition foo (error) ...) highlight (error) in the error face. 15:31:16 <_3b> probably places where it is used to name a type that would match as well, but at least then it is still a 'standard' meaning 15:35:31 grumble grumble... why does mcclim/Extensions/tab-layout.lisp get compiled every time I load my asdf system? 15:37:52 timestamp in the far future? 15:39:28 <_8david> missing :type ? 15:39:33 Spion__ [~spion@77.29.253.26] has joined #lisp 15:40:28 timestamp is ok 15:40:33 -!- hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:40:33 <_8david> well, I don't know what :pathname means anyway, so perhaps the type doesn't matter. still suspicious that it isn't there. 15:40:45 *sykopomp* wonders if anyone has gotten iolib to work in allegro (+ modern-mode) 15:41:36 is the default (asdf) file type cl-source-file? 15:41:53 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:42:00 Mekanik [~vov@91.79.118.106] has joined #lisp 15:42:45 lifeng [~lifeng@bb116-14-191-157.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 15:44:10 hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:22 _8david: you were right, that fixes it. thanks! 15:45:59 greaver [~jo@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 15:46:20 sykopomp: why? It's not written in downcase? 15:48:21 dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 15:48:35 ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 15:48:36 sykopomp: maybe _8david 15:48:57 <_8david> what, mlisp? absolutely not. 15:51:14 is there old-school mode? 15:51:18 -!- Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:51:53 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-086.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:54:15 stassats: yes, alisp 15:54:55 a for "archaic"? 15:55:35 ask antifuchs 15:56:21 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 15:57:30 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.149.223] has joined #lisp 15:59:19 allegro lisp, I guess. The name might be older than modern mode :) 16:00:09 -!- Davsebamse [~das@94.127.50.104] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:01:49 Bronsa [~brace@host190-175-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:01:50 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 16:01:54 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has left #lisp 16:02:12 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-thxoopfeoteccram] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:03:17 z0d [~z0d@artifact.hu] has joined #lisp 16:03:17 -!- z0d [~z0d@artifact.hu] has quit [Changing host] 16:03:17 z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 16:03:21 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.149.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:06:09 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.41.64.60.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Quit: gone] 16:10:37 hum, swank is breaking 16:10:47 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:10:53 -!- euangelion [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:11:05 -!- greaver [~jo@212.88.117.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:11:18 Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:11:38 swank-backend::*sldb-stack-top* unbound after a condition or two .. pretty vanilla sbcl and emacs-23 16:16:01 daniel__ [~daniel@p5B3261DA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:47 steps to reproduce? 16:17:27 silenius [~silenus@dslb-088-075-071-116.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:01 start a new emacs, M-x slime, cause an unbound variable condition once or twice (i type "foo") 16:18:18 oddly, it's not always the first time 16:18:46 that's it? i can't reproduce 16:18:47 abort the error(s) and get a second with the above being unbound 16:19:06 -!- psilord [~psilord@76.201.144.30] has left #lisp 16:19:09 -!- daniel_ [~daniel@p5B327254.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:19:28 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.227.9] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:19:35 yeah, i'm not entirely certain what's flaking out 16:19:50 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.227.9] has joined #lisp 16:19:59 yesterday it was entirely killing emacs-24 .. abort a condition and emacs stops responding 16:20:17 i'm using emacs-24 16:20:24 how old is your slime? 16:20:54 cvs updated yesterday, shortly around when this was happening ;) 16:20:55 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.66.60] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:21:05 er, and again today 16:22:55 sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:23:33 oGMo: what is the value of swank:*communication-style*? 16:23:57 stassats: :spawn 16:24:09 stassats: a for ansi. 16:24:40 ansient lisp? 16:25:10 oGMo: that's good 16:25:17 stassats: nice! are you sure you're not a native English speaker? 16:25:17 hi 16:25:34 please is there a way to get the first n elements from a list? 16:25:41 subseq 16:25:56 stassats: ah ok 16:25:57 oGMo: i have really no ideas what might cause this 16:26:52 stassats: yeah same .. few too many variables at this point, screwing around with different things 16:27:03 well, the usual things too look at: *inferior-lisp* and *slime-events* for anything suspicious 16:28:42 and can you paste the backtrace when this happens? 16:29:01 *stassats* wonders why he didn't ask this first 16:29:02 yeah, not seeing anything that appears unusual except the :debug itself 16:29:40 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 16:30:28 no worries, will dig into swank a bit and understand what's going on and work back i guess 16:31:00 i'd like to see that backtrace anyway 16:31:01 should have known it was going to be one of those days when i hit C-M-x yesterday and X segfaulted 16:31:52 stassats: any preferred form? 16:32:00 lisppaste: url? 16:32:01 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 16:32:14 i.e. dump of the buffer, debug sexp, etc 16:32:50 press ">" to unfold everything, and then paste the whole buffer 16:32:53 oGMo pasted "Whaddup" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120626 16:32:56 k 16:33:00 i did? 16:33:18 that doesn't look like a backtrace 16:33:23 i didn't paste that 16:33:29 -!- Ragnaroek [~Adium@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:33:48 youguy [~youguy@59.pool85-56-15.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 16:33:48 ok, someone should stop playing! 16:33:49 killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 16:33:51 -!- youguy [~youguy@59.pool85-56-15.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:33:52 heh 16:34:50 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:35:18 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755ec7.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:23 stassats pasted "Hi oGMo" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120627 16:35:47 well, it's no kindergarten here 16:35:49 superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.148] has joined #lisp 16:36:00 youguy [~youguy@59.pool85-56-15.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 16:36:04 ;) 16:37:06 -!- relcomp [~chatzilla@nat.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Iceape 2.0.11/20110302185706]] 16:38:00 Sikander [~userid@wirenat-lion.strw.leidenuniv.nl] has joined #lisp 16:38:11 Hello 16:38:27 oGMo pasted "swank-backend::*sldb-stack-top* error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120629 16:38:30 nixfreak annotated #120614 "swank not loading correctly" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120614#1 16:38:36 I have a problem with using the cffi groveller on windows using clozure cl 16:39:11 path names that contain spaces are not properly handled 16:40:03 So when the groveller invokes gcc, it complains that there is no such file or directory for Application and for Data etc. 16:40:17 Has anyone else experienced this (and mostly, solved it)? 16:40:23 -!- Mekanik [~vov@91.79.118.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:41:20 Sikander: the solution to that sort of thing is normally to avoid paths with spaces in them :) 16:41:21 Interestingly, sbcl under windows seems to do this correctly. 16:42:00 rsynnott: In that case, do you know how to tell (I think asdf) to move its cache to a different directory? 16:42:36 Or at least, how to tell cffi to put its source files and executables in a different cache directory. 16:42:40 nixfreak_: what OS is that? 16:42:49 windows 16:42:59 ccl, windows, cffi-grovel 16:43:06 slitaz 16:43:22 oh, sorry :( 16:43:30 I just took the source though 16:43:37 there wasn't a binary for it 16:44:42 oGMo: annotate this with *slime-events*, please 16:44:50 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:45:03 Ok, another question then: is there a CL that has threading under windows and also has a working mcclim or at least clx (using e.g. the Xming xserver)? 16:45:35 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-80-119.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 16:45:36 I found clisp can do clx under windows, but has no threading; ccl has threading, but no clx (it seems) 16:45:47 nixfreak_: try doing (require 'sb-bsd-sockets) (sb-bsd-sockets:get-protocol-by-name "tcp") in bare sbcl 16:45:49 Sikander: what's up with clx and ccl? 16:46:12 Xach: I don't seem to be able to get clx and ccl working under windows. I get a socket error. 16:46:33 Sikander: ah, it builds, but can't open the display? 16:46:39 Xach: Correct 16:46:49 Sikander: that seems like it might be an easy fix. 16:46:50 Xach: I have Xming running 16:46:50 stassats: sec 16:47:07 Xach: Can you point me in the right direction, then? 16:47:34 Sikander: can you paste the socket error you're getting? 16:47:45 oGMo annotated #120629 "*slime-events*" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120629#1 16:48:17 stassats: that's techincally a new version, obviously i didn't expand all the backtrace etc 16:48:21 otherwise identical 16:48:22 Xach: Erm, wait, I'd have to go to go to a different office. Might take a few minutes, ok? 16:48:26 k trying 16:48:29 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-80-119.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:49:05 Sikander: I will try to be patient. 16:49:07 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-80-119.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 16:50:23 <_3b> nixfreak_: i assume something reasonable is returned by grep tcp /etc/protocols ? 16:50:43 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 16:50:55 oGMo: the sequence of events again: you enter FOO in the repl, the debugger pops up, you select a restart, and then it goes bad? 16:51:07 stassats: select abort (i hit 'a') 16:51:29 Mekanik [~vov@91.79.132.11] has joined #lisp 16:51:29 <_3b> does anyone know if 'archimag' on github visits here? 16:51:46 _3b: no 16:52:05 Xach: Ah, slime just says "Can't create file socket to "/tmp/.X11-unix/X0" on Windows" 16:52:24 he frequents one russian jabber conference on lisp 16:52:34 Sikander: what function call prompted that? 16:52:46 <_3b> ok, i'll just respond on github then 16:53:14 Xach: (xlib:open-display "") 16:53:39 Sikander: What does (xlib:open-default-display) do? 16:54:14 Xach: value NIL is not of the expected type NUMBER. 16:54:39 <_3b> Sikander: might also try (xlib:open-display ":0.0") 16:55:14 oGMo: can't think of anything 16:55:47 stassats: k no worries .. if i find anything i'll let you know 16:55:50 _3b: No such host is known. 16:56:29 Sikander: What does (asdf:getenv "DISPLAY") show? 16:56:54 Xach: "" 16:57:05 Xach: I did tell you that I'm on windows, using Xming, right? 16:57:29 -!- youguy [~youguy@59.pool85-56-15.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:57:47 Sikander: You mentioned. 16:58:01 Xach: Ok, just checking that I'm not wasting anyone's time 16:58:13 twopoint718 [~chris@216.26.107.197] has joined #lisp 16:58:13 -!- twopoint718 [~chris@216.26.107.197] has quit [Changing host] 16:58:13 twopoint718 [~chris@fsf/member/twopoint718] has joined #lisp 16:58:33 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:58:35 I just get nil 16:59:31 nil for what? 17:00:15 nixfreak_: for what i asked? press Return twice 17:00:27 -!- orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:00:37 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 17:01:15 and _3b has a good point, check that you have /etc/protocols file 17:02:57 sb-bsd 17:03:04 bsd sockets 17:03:46 -!- silenius [~silenus@dslb-088-075-071-116.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:03:47 nothing 17:04:04 silenius [~silenus@dslb-088-075-071-116.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:24 -!- twopoint718 [~chris@fsf/member/twopoint718] has left #lisp 17:05:26 -!- longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:09:31 . 17:10:02 jsoft: What's up? 17:10:04 <_3b> Sikander: maybe "localhost:0.0" or "127.0.0.1:0.0" ? 17:10:22 _3b: open-display uses the hostname as the first argument and the display is passed separately. 17:10:43 _3b: so it'd be (... "localhost" :display 0) or similar. 17:11:10 <_3b> Sikander: ^ what Xach said then 17:11:12 -!- redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:11:18 Sikander: http://paste.lisp.org/display/120630 has the new error 17:11:26 err 17:11:29 _3b: that's for you 17:11:51 Right... 17:12:21 HG` [~HG@dslb-188-109-169-172.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:40 Xming is running, so there should be a display 17:13:06 Just in case (it's windows, after all), I've restarted everything and tried it again, but same error. 17:13:52 Sikander: out of curiosity, what are you trying to make? 17:13:53 So there is no cl with threading and clx (or any way of showing a window) in windows? 17:13:56 <_3b> might check whatever you used to start xming and make sure it doesn't select a different display 17:14:04 Xach: ... A window? 17:14:15 Xach: I want to plot some stuff in a window 17:14:30 Xach: using some simple clx drawing. 17:15:12 _3b: Xming says the server runs on :0.0 17:15:15 <_3b> might also need to open firewall port 6000/tcp 17:15:24 Sikander: Is "drawing in a window" the important part or is "plot some stuff" the important part? 17:15:50 Xach: The "plot some stuff" is the most important part at this moment 17:16:04 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-123.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:16:16 myu2 [~myu2@s199057.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 17:16:17 Sikander: You might have better luck with Ltk. You could also plot to a PNG and use a program to display it... 17:16:23 I get data out of lisp functions, and the data should be plotted immediately. 17:16:50 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:16:58 Erm, not going to work. I need it to be refreshed every second (or faster) 17:17:36 Basically, I'm acquiring data, and I want it to be visualised (almost) live 17:18:04 Is there any way to do any type of graphical stuff under windows with CL? 17:18:27 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:18:32 <_3b> opengl, ltk, sdl, commonqt, web browsers, win api 17:19:08 <_3b> gtk, java, flash, rdnzl to .net stuff, capi, ... 17:19:09 Sikander: CAPI 17:19:37 benny` [~benny@i577A26D6.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:20:04 Ah, capi is not free, is it? 17:20:19 <_3b> you could reimplenet a free version :) 17:20:23 Sikander: nope. (neither is windows!) 17:20:26 <_3b> reimplement 17:20:53 Xach: Yeah, but windows runs on the lab pc's already :( 17:21:16 <_3b> well, convince someone they should run lw with capi too :) 17:21:24 _3b: don't ltk, sdl or commonqt require an x-server? If not, I'll try that then... 17:21:32 I don't think Ltk does. 17:21:38 Nor SDL, commonqt 17:21:39 _3b: They tell me to use labview :( 17:21:43 <_3b> only on platforms where X is the primary means of display 17:21:57 <_3b> (and even then sdl pribably runs on raw framebuffers of some sort) 17:22:10 youguy [~youguy@59.pool85-56-15.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 17:22:28 In that case, I'll try one of those then. Would you suggest sbcl, ccl or clisp on windows? 17:22:38 I guess clisp is out since it has no threads... 17:22:39 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 17:23:00 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 17:23:03 *_3b* would probably try sbcl, but might be more likely to suggeest ccl 17:23:11 tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has joined #lisp 17:23:45 spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-13-34.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:23:47 Ok, thanks very much for all your help. I'll try one of the other suggestions you made. 17:23:49 *_3b* mostly uses sbcl and doesn't mind poking at it when it breaks 17:26:26 -!- jwdunne [~jwdunne@cpc1-ward9-2-0-cust148.10-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:26:46 hashrocket [~anonymous@208.74.177.139.static.etheric.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:50 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:29:42 antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 17:31:30 Hi Sikander 17:31:59 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:32:05 Hi! 17:32:16 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:32:23 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has joined #lisp 17:32:26 (if condition (first statement if true) (second statement if true) (statement if false)) <- how to do this? 17:32:39 -!- youguy [~youguy@59.pool85-56-15.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 17:33:06 <_3b> Xach: out of curiosity, does removing :xinerama from xlib::*extensions* before connecting help? 17:33:10 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:33:11 LiamH: I believe I should still commit some things to gsll... 17:33:15 <_3b> clhs progn 17:33:15 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_progn.htm 17:33:16 redline6561 [~user@70.159.109.249] has joined #lisp 17:33:37 Sikander: OK, I look forward to it. 17:33:43 -!- frx [~5d887cf0@ns1.smartcall.bg] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF)] 17:33:44 <_3b> tr3x_: see that link ^ 17:33:47 _3b: i don't rightly know 17:33:49 thanks 17:33:58 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:37 LiamH: I think I saw that someone (mirko?) got stuff working under windows with some patch; is that checked in? 17:35:10 Sikander: Probably not. Have you tested it? 17:36:13 <_3b> Xach: oops, didn't see that you weren't the one who created the paste 17:36:14 LiamH: Nope, but was planning to. I had some things (partially) working. e.g. fsbv seems to work (or at least compile) fine with some additions 17:36:36 LiamH: So I can even use foreign-array without any problems 17:37:03 *_3b* will ignore the issue then, unless i get bored enough to actually try it myself :) 17:37:16 Sikander: OK. I have started a branch of FSBV and CFFI in which I am trying to fold the former into the latter. I have not had a chance to work on it though for a few months, and am unlikely to for the next few months. 17:38:05 If there are changes to commit with FSBV I'll need to add you as a committer; I think you're only on GSLL and GSD now. 17:38:17 LiamH: Ah, I'm very interested in that. I've been writing some ffi (e.g. libusb) and am using grid/foreign-array as the way to read/write buffers 17:39:11 Also, if you commit changes to GSD they'll likely get lost, because I've started a new repo which is not ready for release yet. 17:39:18 LiamH: while doing that, though, I was wondering: does grid::foreign-pointer work only for a grid of type foreign-array, or also for a lisp array? 17:39:31 LiamH: ah, ok... 17:39:55 Sikander: I hope not too much longer until I can release that. 17:40:06 LiamH: Ah, thanks for FSBV! I'm enjoying using it with Intel's OpenCV lib. Makes my life much easier. :) 17:40:24 Sikander: What would you like foreign-pointer to return for a CL array? 17:40:36 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:42 LiamH: Exactly 17:40:50 redline6561: NP 17:41:05 reline6561: What is OpenCV? 17:41:09 LiamH: I thought maybe behind the scenes, it makes a foreign array, copies the contents and returns the pointer 17:41:14 redline6561: Intel's library for Computer Vision/Machine Vision. 17:41:26 LiamH: http://opencv.willowgarage.com/ 17:41:57 *redline6561* sighs 17:42:08 redline6561: I think I've seen that before, but not used it. 17:43:17 redline6561: Have you by chance done anything with mixalot (with vorbis and flac) and shuffletron? 17:43:20 Sikander: no. What you want to do is a) use an implementation that supports static-vectors, b) make a foreign-array, c) call cl-array on that option to get the CL array. 17:43:35 LiamH: Ok. 17:43:49 Sikander: "object" not "option" D'Oh 17:43:49 jdz [~jdz@host152-106-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:44:01 LiamH: Does the #8m reader (etc) make a foreign array when foreign-array is loaded? 17:44:07 LiamH: I understood that :D 17:44:15 Sikander: It had better! 17:44:17 Sikander: No, I never got around to it. In the past week I screwerd around with EMMS for emacs but it...doesn't quite live up to shuffletron. Not sure what my next move is. :-/ 17:44:32 s/screwerd/screwed/ 17:44:54 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:44:59 redline6561: Dammit, I (sort of) have flac and vorbis working in mixalot, but never got round to adding it to shuffletron... 17:45:36 Sikander: I just checked, there is exactly one method defined for foreign-pointer, and for the foreign-array class. 17:45:43 Sikander: ahefner said he was going to handle it but has since been busy I guess. I wonder what he's up to these days...haven't seen any cool lisp hacks or word from him lately. 17:45:57 LiamH: So does this mean that if foreign-array is loaded, grid always makes foreign arrays? 17:46:10 Sikander: I thought libsndfile patches were already in mixalot on github they just needed some attention on the shuffletron side. Are those your patches? 17:46:35 -!- silenius [~silenus@dslb-088-075-071-116.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:46:54 redline6561: I contacted him quite a while ago about this (around the time that I was working on this) and he said he was not doing well. I did not quite understand, but expressed my sympathies. 17:46:56 Sikander: It makes whatever you ask it to. If there is a default, check what grid:*default-grid-type* is, that is your default. 17:47:08 LiamH: Ok, excellent 17:47:21 redline6561: No, I didn't use libsndfile, just libvorbis and libflac 17:47:35 Sikander: However, currently the #m reader macros make only foreign arrays. I've contemplated changing that. Do you think it should be changed to grid:*default-grid-type*? 17:47:41 redline6561: I forked it on github (where I am soemraws, to make things obvious) 17:48:08 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:48:23 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 17:48:31 LiamH: Hm, it would probably make more sense if it uses grid:*default-grid-type*, but I'm sort of already completely used to it making foreign arrays :) 17:49:43 Sikander: Then your solution is simple: set *default-grid-type*. I have a system of applications that uses GSLL etc. and I have it just reset that value to foreign-array when it loads. 17:50:41 Sikander: Thanks for explaining. 17:50:44 LiamH: Sounds good. Is there any (significant) consequence for efficiency in general, when using foreign arrays? 17:51:14 kephas [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-112-16.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:51:16 redline6561: I want to pick this up in the near future again. Were you interested helping out? 17:52:03 LiamH: I mean, when not using gsll... 17:52:18 Sikander: There's a blog showing a comparison of efficiency with other packages somewhere (sorry I don't have the URL). It's in Russian, but Google does a passable job of translating it. Otherwise I haven't looked at efficiency, except for those declarations I put in a few months ago, which I think I told you about. 17:53:01 Sikander: When not using GSLL, is there consequence to efficiency? I'm not sure what you're asking. 17:53:04 LiamH: Yes, I added those declarations to the fft tests. If I remember correctly, I was rather disappointed at the results 17:53:15 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-49-13-243.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:53:37 LiamH: when not using gsll, but doing things with foreign-arrays vs cl arrays (access, looping etc) 17:53:38 Sikander: Well they probably could use some work. The improvement should be dramatic, at least an order of magnitude faster. 17:53:42 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:53:54 Sikander: Oh, I see. I'm not sure. 17:54:03 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 17:54:13 Sikander: My philosophy: make it work first, then make it fast. 17:54:21 LiamH: Hm, ok, well I thought I did see some improvement, but not much. This is why I never pushed the results; I wanted to have another look at it. 17:54:24 LiamH: Makes sense 17:54:43 However I'm perpetually on part "a" of that pair :-) 17:54:56 -!- nowhereman [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-25-123.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:55:41 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 17:55:49 LiamH: all those macros, like defmfun etc, how did you decide on how to design them? 17:55:52 -!- dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:56:32 LiamH: I mean not implementation-wise, but design in a dsl type of way. How did you decide on that? 17:56:35 Sikander: They grew incrementally over a few years - scroll back over the git history. 17:56:48 tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has joined #lisp 17:57:28 Ok, I'll have a look. So it is more an organic thing, not something that you sat down for and decided "this is how it is"? 17:57:32 Sikander: I didn't have a design plan, it was trial and error. Believe it or not, it took me a while to hit on the idea of making an arglist that is exactly the CL arglist. 17:57:53 Sikander: Right. I didn't have that kind of vision at the start. 17:58:22 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has left #lisp 17:58:49 Sikander: It was really very much driven by the structure of GSL, and I started with some generalizations that worked in many cases, but then I had to deal with the exceptions. That latter part took about 80% of the time, for about 5% (at most) of GSL. 17:58:54 LiamH: Ah, ok... So there's hope for me yet. I was wondering why I didn't "see" how things should be done within a week :D I keep changing stuff while writing 17:59:17 Sikander: That's how I do ALL my coding! 17:59:21 :D 18:00:20 Still, coming from a C background, that scared me a little; I thought that I must be doing something wrong if I keep changing stuff here and there to improve it (due to new insights etc) 18:01:21 -!- HG` [~HG@dslb-188-109-169-172.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:01:35 Sikander: Well, if it's always done anecdotally, that's bad (and I'm not saying I don't drop back to that from time to time). But I want to be able to form a coherent approach and rewrite things to match, if possible. 18:02:01 So I rewrote those definitions several times. 18:02:15 Even now there's probably some cruft left over from the earlier attempts. 18:02:24 LiamH: Ok, that's what I mean. After a while, stuff seems to settle in a specific shape. 18:04:09 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has joined #lisp 18:04:13 -!- Liera` [~user@113.172.49.252] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:08:21 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:09:47 gozek [~quassel@56.165.216.87.static.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:17:08 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:17:40 Anyway, it's time for me to go out and forage 18:17:52 -!- _dev0_ [~dev@c-24-16-28-215.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:17:57 See you later, and thanks for all the help 18:18:13 -!- Sikander [~userid@wirenat-lion.strw.leidenuniv.nl] has quit [Quit: Time to eat...] 18:20:32 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.227.9] has joined #lisp 18:20:46 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:21:05 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:21:26 Sikander: Sorry. Was away for a minute. Feel free to hit me up at redline6561 on github or gmail. Definitely interested though my priority ones are playlists and scrobbling support. :) 18:21:33 gah! 18:23:08 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 18:23:23 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 18:24:20 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.227.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:24:20 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 18:25:20 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Client Quit] 18:26:38 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-23-137-233.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 18:29:02 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has joined #lisp 18:29:14 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:31:12 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 18:31:33 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 18:31:33 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 18:31:33 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 18:32:58 redline6561: employ the minion! 18:33:12 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:27 _dev0_ [~dev@c-24-16-28-215.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:57 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:34:50 stassats: I would but I already sent him a github message. :P 18:36:34 -!- lanthan [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:36:46 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 18:37:34 GrayMagiker [~steve@c-174-56-26-27.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:34 setmeaway2 [~setmeaway@118.45.149.204] has joined #lisp 18:39:16 VectorX [~knight@unaffiliated/vectorx] has joined #lisp 18:40:27 -!- Aiwass [~Aiwass4@188.26.203.226] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:40:32 -!- emma is now known as em 18:41:26 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-100-131.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:43 eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 18:41:43 alama [~alama@a79-169-91-6.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 18:41:53 -!- jnoos [~setmeaway@118.45.149.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:42:09 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-31-28-194.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 18:42:35 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 18:43:33 -!- jdz [~jdz@host152-106-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:44:06 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:45:50 bhyde [~bhyde@50.10.201.28] has joined #lisp 18:47:06 tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.66.60] has joined #lisp 18:51:28 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@50.10.201.28] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 18:51:42 -!- hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:52:08 hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:17 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.227.9] has joined #lisp 18:53:07 bhyde [~bhyde@50.10.201.28] has joined #lisp 18:53:31 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@50.10.201.28] has quit [Client Quit] 18:53:47 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.227.9] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:53:47 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 18:55:52 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-53-100.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:01:38 -!- VectorX [~knight@unaffiliated/vectorx] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:05:09 bhyde [~bhyde@50.10.201.28] has joined #lisp 19:06:40 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@50.10.201.28] has quit [Client Quit] 19:07:27 bhyde [~bhyde@50.10.201.28] has joined #lisp 19:07:39 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@50.10.201.28] has quit [Client Quit] 19:08:18 Hello Lispers! 19:10:39 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:11:33 Ragnaroek [~Adium@p5B0C58F3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:50 zarul [~zarul@ubuntu/member/zarul] has joined #lisp 19:12:12 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:12:51 This may come across as really stupid and I would imagine most of you here have it etched onto the backs of your eyelids already... I however do not, and for whatever reason I can't seem to find clarity on the issue (via google). So, any input (however unkind) you lispers would be much appreciated. 19:13:15 What a prelude! I can't wait for the question. 19:13:49 *gozek* is holding his breath 19:13:51 -!- zarul [~zarul@ubuntu/member/zarul] has left #lisp 19:14:03 -!- Mekanik [~vov@91.79.132.11] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 19:14:14 gozek: don't die waiting 19:14:33 *gozek* breaths deeply after waiting too much 19:14:51 What are differences between litte-endian and big-endian? As far as I can gather bits are ordered 9876454210 with 0 being lsb? and 19:14:56 ehu: thanks for the advice 19:15:06 first, it's about which end of the egg gets sliced off (-: 19:15:18 antifuchs: that doesn't help at all.... 19:15:22 mon_key: it's helpful to read gulliver's travels for the historical background on the terms (: 19:15:28 mon_key: I've found that network-related RFCs have a pretty good explanation for it 19:16:01 little-endian/big-endian is about byte order though right? As opposed to bit addressing? 19:16:05 *Xach* tries to find an example 19:16:06 but it is about which part of a machine word holds the most significant part 19:16:07 <_3b> usually refers to bytes 19:16:10 mon_key: On PowerPC, IBM numbers the most significant bit in a word as 0. 19:16:14 is there something like rvm (ruby version manager) for lisp? 19:16:20 yes, byte ordering in machine words 19:16:21 ozzloy: what does rvm do? 19:16:35 ozzloy: clbuild is /a bit/ like it 19:16:43 but doesn't come close 19:16:55 something that allows you to install multiple versions of lisp, allows you to have separate sets of add-ons 19:17:02 wait till you get to mixed-endian 19:17:06 So, rvm is like a package manager for stuff from vcses? 19:17:10 Xach: I'm looking at RFC-4122 which refers to network-byte-order 19:17:13 rvm lets you keep different versions of ruby installed in parallel, lets you select them and choose different "gemset" configurations 19:17:20 <_3b> bit order would only matter if you have addresses for individual bits 19:17:22 ozzloy: Oh yeah, we don't really have anything for that. 19:17:35 sellout: no, more of a manager for different implementations 19:17:49 ozzloy: We just have Xach to make sure all the current versions of everything work together ;) 19:17:59 "rvm 1.9" will select ruby 1.9, "rvm rubinius" will select the c++ jit one, etc. 19:18:15 ozzloy: it would certainly be excellent if lisp had something like this! 19:18:19 got called away for a sec 19:18:26 -!- gz` [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:18:29 lemme read up 19:18:41 ozzloy: quicklisp at least makes it easy (in theory) to keep separate installed packages around 19:18:44 stassats: isn't mixed-endian what alot of the mobile platforms use? 19:19:01 it would be really very nice if there was something that lets you install implementations conveniently. 19:19:10 ozzloy: wanna start working on that? (-: 19:19:18 *antifuchs* looks at ozzloy with hope in his eyes 19:19:19 quick-lisp would be more like gem 19:19:23 i think 19:19:28 yes, that's right 19:19:30 yeah, i was actually thinking about doing that 19:19:34 mon_key: imagine you have a two-byte file and you want someone to interpret those two bytes as a 16 bit value, what are the options for interpretation? 19:19:42 but i wanted to see what was already available 19:19:44 ozzloy: go ahead! it'll be awesome. 19:19:52 heh 19:20:08 bhyde [~bhyde@50.10.201.28] has joined #lisp 19:20:21 ozzloy: anyway, clbuild might be interesting. but it only really supported one implementation per clbuild dir at a time, last time I looked 19:20:34 -!- GrayMagiker [~steve@c-174-56-26-27.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:20:35 (which feels kind of inadequate when you compare it to rvm (-:) 19:20:41 anyway - lunchtime, back soon (: 19:20:47 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@50.10.201.28] has quit [Client Quit] 19:20:48 -!- seejay [~seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:20:50 they can get two bytes 0-255 in either order? 19:20:56 Xach: ^^^ 19:20:57 tmh [635b0bae@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 19:21:02 Greetings lispers. 19:21:15 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.139.95.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:22:07 mon_key: Do you see how one order could be called big endian and one could be called little endian? 19:22:16 Yep, got that 19:22:26 no. 19:22:28 ok, phew. 19:22:49 I see that one will be little and one will be big. I don't see which is which 19:23:09 antifuchs: Was the last time you looked at clbuild before clbuild2? 19:23:09 e.g. (254 001) or (001 254) One is little-endian one is big-endian. 19:23:21 it's like hebrew 19:23:29 <_3b> just make sure to put the name in the code that parses it, so you can compare with the docs that say which you need to parse :) 19:23:51 minion: swap-bytes? 19:23:52 swap-bytes: swap-bytes is a library for efficient endianness conversion in SBCL and CCL. http://www.cliki.net/swap-bytes 19:24:42 <_3b> mon_key: both are big-endian, and both are little-endian, unless you have a specific 16bit number for it to match 19:25:10 someone described my stuff on cliki, although not really correctly (it isn't optimized for CCL yet) and i'm too lazy to edit it 19:25:20 <_3b> (in other words, it depends on which bits of the original number are in which place, not on the values in those bits) 19:25:36 -!- jaminja [~jaminja@unaffiliated/jaminja] has quit [Quit: "Rest In Peace Maxtor HD :) Thank god for reincarnation...bb 0200ish IST"] 19:25:46 _3b: So there is no canonical rule for which comes first e.g. left->right is a little and right->left is a big? 19:26:56 mon_key: say you read two bytes, #xfe and #x01 from a file. If you interpret the #xfe as the least-significant byte, then your 16-biit number would be #x01fe. That's little-endian. If the #xfe is the most-significant byte, the 16-bit number is #xfe01. That's big-endian. 19:27:20 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:27:23 <_3b> mon_key: well, 'left' and 'right' probably aren't precise enough, since we are talking about octets, not printed characters most-significant and least-significant are better 19:27:38 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:28:22 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:23 So when "looking at" e.g. reading the octet(s) what is important is where lsb/msb occur relative to the expectations of the reader not any particular printed notation of the thing octet(s) read? 19:30:40 lunchtime for me too 19:32:09 <_3b> order the octets appear in the input stream, or addresses of the octets in ram 19:32:24 _3b: is that a question? 19:32:41 <_3b> that is my interpretation fo what is important 19:33:27 sellout, what is Xach? 19:33:39 ozzloy: I am Xach. 19:33:39 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:33:52 o lulz 19:34:11 so you make sure all the current versions of everything work together 19:34:24 <_3b> mon_key: (trying to avoid having to clarify the interpretation of 'reader' in your statement :) 19:34:42 Ok. So for example network-byte-order is about order of octets in the stream b/c it needs to be cannonical or bad stuff happens. Whereas addresses of octetes in ram is about how a given machine architecture orders memory for its internal frobbings? 19:34:47 nice. well with an rvm workalike, you wouldn't have to. people could section off things that don't work well together 19:34:55 ozzloy: Xach is the creator/maintainer of quicklisp. 19:34:56 <_3b> sounds right 19:35:02 what's the equivalent of a gem in lisp? 19:35:16 ozzloy: I assume it's an ASDF system. 19:35:20 what's the name of a packaged add-on thing 19:35:22 Or just "system". 19:35:34 ic 19:35:50 in case you couldn't tell, i'm coming from a ruby background and i'm new to lisp 19:35:58 now i really must go get lunch 19:35:59 mon_key: yes. helpfully CL specifies how you can expect integers to work without having to think about how the machine might be working with them. 19:36:12 thanks sellout, antifuchs and Xach 19:36:27 <_3b> mon_key: both orderings make sense depending on how you think about it, and unfortunately nobody ever resolved the conflict so we need to be able to handle both :( 19:36:34 mon_key: when you want to encode integers as a sequence of octets you have to do it in a way a decoding system understands. 19:36:49 Xach: e.g. ldb/dpb? 19:37:09 <_3b> ldb/dpb themselves don't care 19:37:33 <_3b> but they are a common way to implement a specific endianness in CL 19:37:48 There's a GIS file format (esri shapefiles) that uses both little- and big-endian for encoding integers in its header. very amusing. 19:37:51 youguy [~youguy@59.pool85-56-15.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 19:37:57 it's like going through different fossil layers 19:38:25 and tiff integers might be big- or little-endian depending on whether the "intel" or "motorola" flag is set. 19:38:31 Is there some sort of internal CL mechanism that auto-frobs according to some default per the machine? 19:38:40 bhyde [~bhyde@50.10.201.28] has joined #lisp 19:38:47 <_3b> ldb/dpb doesn't let you address individual octets separately from the integer, only offsets relative to the low bit 19:38:51 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:38:55 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@50.10.201.28] has quit [Client Quit] 19:39:32 <_3b> if you only load entire words, endiannes doesn't matter 19:39:38 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:39:45 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.227.9] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:40:46 _3b: between architectures? 19:40:58 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 19:41:24 <_3b> ehu: doesn't seem likely it would be running on more than 1 at a time 19:41:46 _3b: but it reads files, doesn't it? 19:41:52 <_3b> if it saves files and loads them in other architectures, it might need to convert 19:42:19 -!- redline6561 [~user@70.159.109.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:42:26 <_3b> does CL guarantee a byte order for unsigned-byte x files (where x>8)? 19:42:27 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:43:34 _3b: No. (Can't quote chapter & verse.) 19:43:51 bhyde [~bhyde@50.10.201.28] has joined #lisp 19:44:20 Xach: so are you saying w/r/t to CL's helpfullness around binary formats like tiff, GIS, etc. where these are decoding tasks so long as CL treats correctly decodes the data (e.g. _3b's "input stream") to an integer the endianess doesn't really matter once CL has ahold of it. Its only when that data is written back out e.g. encoded to an "output stream" that endianess is again a factor? 19:44:51 <_3b> CL doesn't load complex binary files for you 19:45:09 <_3b> it only 'should' be able to read back something it wrote :) 19:45:12 mon_key: The helpfulness is that the internal format is consistent and does not vary. 19:45:24 Xach: got it. 19:45:38 mon_key: When converting to or from an external format, you don't need NxM encoders and decoders. 19:45:40 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@50.10.201.28] has quit [Client Quit] 19:45:57 Wow! We are lucky :) 19:46:28 <_3b> CL lets you read octets, and stick them into specific parts of an integer 19:46:46 <_3b> (same as most languages, if possibly nicer in CL) 19:47:26 <_3b> you can also read bigger pieces, but then CL will probably assume the pieces were written the same way it would have written them 19:47:35 <_3b> again, like most languages 19:47:49 For a particular implementation. 19:48:07 pieces? 19:48:09 <_3b> so for portable code (and portable data), we try to avoid that assumption, and read octets and assemble them in a specific way 19:48:24 <_3b> 'pieces' as in (unsigned-byte 16) or (unsigned-byte 32) etc 19:48:47 bhyde [~bhyde@50.10.201.28] has joined #lisp 19:49:00 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.224.242] has joined #lisp 19:49:21 Like when arriveing at an integer value byte at a time? 19:49:54 <_3b> the 'read octets and assemble' part? yes 19:51:56 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.66.60] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 19:52:39 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host190-175-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Disconnected by services] 19:52:42 Bronsa_ [~brace@host142-185-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:52:51 -!- Bronsa_ [~brace@host142-185-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 19:53:11 Bronsa [~brace@host142-185-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:53:13 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host142-185-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 19:53:18 adobriyan [~ad@vulture2-nat-42.telecom.by] has joined #lisp 19:53:28 Hmm, is there a consensus favorite blas/lapack CL library? 19:54:07 So the order of octets in ram memory of various common architectures in use today are? 19:54:23 <_3b> lsb to msb, and msb to lsb 19:54:41 x86 is lsb to msb 19:54:59 p_l|backup: yes that is what I meant to ask 19:55:01 aka ass-backwards;-) 19:55:06 <_3b> (i hope there aren't still any common arch that do otherwise) 19:55:15 it depends on the memory slots. if you have to load in alternating pairs, the first two octets of a 32-bit value are big endian, and the second two are little endian. 19:55:20 ok, that is not true. 19:55:21 _3b: there are no longer pdp-endian systems 19:55:43 well, not big ones 19:56:02 there is at least one system that kicks endianess out by being bit-addressable 19:56:10 p_l|backup: Just little-pdp-endian ones? 19:56:15 Xach: memory slots as in this chunk of sdram I just bought or an abstract slot? 19:56:18 <_3b> then there are the ones where you can switch between either choice, arm etc 19:56:20 Bronsa [~brace@host142-185-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:56:24 x86 has bswap instruction 19:56:34 sellout: I haven't encountered one that used pdp endianess or any variant of it anymore 19:57:08 though I'm pretty sure there are some systems that have BCD arithmethics 19:57:30 ... right, x86 has it, didn't it? 19:57:32 <_3b> doens't x86 have bcd opcodes? 19:57:39 _3b: I just remembered 19:57:48 mon_key: on the motherboard. 19:58:10 for a while I thought about only modern architectures, not chips designed for use in pocket calculators 19:58:18 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@50.10.201.28] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 19:58:20 Xach: like as for a x86-64? 19:58:37 _3b: depends, for 64-bit, it might be mixed. IIRC sparc did it... 19:58:39 mon_key: It is a bad joke, sorry. The arrangement of memory in motherboard slots does not influence the intra-word endianness. 19:59:10 roadt [~roadt@60.168.91.255] has joined #lisp 19:59:45 Xach: NP, I would have thought everything is f*cked if how i dropped in physical memory affected things. 19:59:59 everything is fucked for entirely different reasons 20:00:08 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:00:28 More over, in lisp you have to consider bignums, and then even on a big-endian machine, bignums are often stored with lswords first. 20:00:42 lswords? 20:00:50 least significant words 20:01:07 short for lambda-swords, the tools of the jedi lisper 20:01:13 ok, also not true. i will give up for the day. 20:01:30 Tools from a more civilized time? 20:01:31 the point being that it does not matter. 20:01:56 I wanted to use LOG 10 to determine how many digits in an integer but float imprecision kills me earlier than expected: (let (logs) (dolist (i '(999 999999 999999999) (nreverse logs)) (push (log i 10) logs))) => (2.9995656 5.9999995 9.0) I'm kinda stumped about what to do now :( Any ideas? 20:02:01 pjb: part of what prompted my questin is w/r/t encoding bignums to byte-array 20:02:16 I'd rather not just print the number in a string and checking its length ;P 20:02:30 <_3b> integer length and the ration of log 10 and log 2? 20:02:36 <_3b> *ratio 20:02:41 <_3b> possibly inverted 20:02:49 *_3b* is too tired for math 20:02:55 -!- xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:03:19 Ah, awesome, integer-length seems like a start. 20:04:19 So, to be sure x86 is lsb to msb and that is called little-endian? 20:04:32 -!- roadt [~roadt@60.168.91.255] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:04:42 <_3b> hmm, seems that doesn't quite work, maybe a FLOOR or CEILING would help 20:05:39 <_3b> nope, seems i missed something, maybe someone awake can fix it :) 20:09:30 I guess a nicely slow solution would be to repeatedly divide by 10 :/ 20:09:47 *_3b* would go for the fun solution of a binary search :) 20:11:56 i'd first estimate with (ceiling (integer-length n) 3) 20:12:05 vsedach [4546541a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.69.70.84.26] has joined #lisp 20:12:10 _3b, Xach, antifuchs, rme, stassats, pjb: Thanks for your help. I have a better grip on then endian thing. 20:12:16 <_3b> integer-length and (log 2 10) should get within 2 or so though 20:12:30 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host142-185-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:12:47 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-123.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:12:54 tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:07 I really need the exact number of digits, it's to print bignums in french. 20:13:15 does anyone know if LispNYC made SoC? 20:13:24 I applied Parenscript but they turned that down 20:13:26 <_3b> right, get within 2 then linear search 20:13:29 SoC = Google Summer of Code 20:14:48 vsedach: Isn't there a list somewhere? I just heard that some LLVM project got in. 20:14:56 Ah, you mean using my original imprecise approach and then searching around. Why didn't I think of that :/ 20:15:10 *_3b* does not see lispnyc on the gsoc page 20:15:18 sellout: yeah, but no one has posted anything yet 20:15:29 bummer 20:16:25 vsedach: This is the list I meant: http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/program/accepted_orgs/google/gsoc2011 20:17:15 you're right, its not there 20:17:17 but GNU is 20:17:27 and they're like "clisp this, common lisp that" 20:17:50 Oh man, GNU has Autotools projects  please don't make kids touch that crap. 20:17:54 -!- nixfreak_ [~nixfreak@mn-10k-dhcp1-3174.dsl.hickorytech.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:18:24 Hexstream: did you get my note about bigname dependency? 20:19:17 mon_key: Yeah. Working on that right now. I found this annoying bug that was lurking... Otherwise this would have been a 5-minutes job. :( 20:19:56 Sorry to put you into a yak-shaving. 20:20:07 is anyone here a student? 20:20:11 I have a fun project 20:20:18 that is very GNU and common lisp related 20:21:43 bhyde [~bhyde@50.10.201.28] has joined #lisp 20:21:54 Hexstream: (defun decimal-length (n) (let ((estimate (floor (integer-length n) 3))) (if (zerop (truncate n (expt 10 estimate))) estimate (1+ estimate)))) ? 20:23:05 vsedach: speak up 20:23:08 stassats: Nope! ;) (decimal-length 999999999) => 10. That's my original problem... 20:23:22 http://clocc.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/clocc/clocc/src/cllib/elisp.lisp?view=markup 20:23:24 take that 20:23:29 and port GNU Emacs to Common Lisp 20:23:40 Hexstream: bug around BIG-DESIGNATION ? 20:23:47 like the elisp layer 20:23:50 fuck the bytecode 20:23:56 Hexstream: well, you're not supposed to use it verbatim, fix it! 20:24:21 mon_key: Yeah. I was getting infinite loops and other nonsense because of that. 20:24:26 then it's easy to plug in clpython and cl-javascript to let people script emacs in python 20:24:34 whoever does this will be a hero 20:25:00 vsedach: the real issue IMHO is w/r/t regular-expressions and buffers not the elisp primitives... 20:25:08 Hexstream: (defun decimal-length (n) (let* ((estimate (floor (integer-length n) 3)) (remains (truncate n (expt 10 estimate)))) (if (zerop remains) estimate (+ estimate (decimal-length remains))))) 20:25:17 yeah, all the C code crap 20:25:18 vsedach: It looks like the plan is still to move emacs to Guile. 20:25:38 buffers I don't see as a problem 20:25:44 regexes will be a pain 20:26:04 the proof is left to the reader 20:26:06 vsedach: flexi-chain should help with buffers 20:26:07 stassats: Still gives (decimal-length 999999999) => 10, doesn't it? 20:26:23 guile doesn't have clpython 20:26:47 Hexstream: well, i give to you for free, you do the testing and fixing and proving that it's right! 20:26:58 If I wanted that wrong answer, I'd use (floor (log 999999999 10)). 20:27:25 I'm a REPL! 20:27:28 <_3b> does replacing the 3 with (log 10 2) make it work well enough? 20:27:30 vsedach: and even if somebody does this, then what ? 20:28:20 then we get a bunch of people using common lisp who otherwise would not care one way or another 20:28:21 sellout: yeah, I wiped my clbuild install when ql came out, and haven't looked back yet (: 20:28:36 Python extensions for emacs is a huge huge thing 20:28:46 you could first make sure to work with doubles, not single floats. 20:28:47 Fuck all. I'll just print to a string and check the length for now, damnit. 20:29:11 -!- dmytrish__ is now known as dmytrish_ 20:29:14 -!- dmytrish_ is now known as dmytrish 20:29:16 pkhuong: Ah, maybe, how? And anyway, isn't the existence of double-floats implementation-dependent? 20:29:25 best case scenario this would mean a complete common lisp implementation everywhere there is emacs 20:29:26 I don't want my code to magically break on some implementations. 20:29:46 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:29:57 vsedach: the third major issue is how emacs represents character literals 20:30:08 antifuchs: I haven't used clbuild2 much, but my guess is that since it now uses asdf2/quicklisp, it can more happily work across impls. 20:30:29 codelurker [~codelurke@99.55.95.55] has joined #lisp 20:30:38 vsedach: so you need cl-interpol for that and/or named-readtables 20:30:40 mon_key: literals like something that can be fixed with readtables, or literals like this will be incompatible with common lisp strings? 20:30:49 vsedach: both 20:30:59 wanderingelf [4817e03a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.23.224.58] has joined #lisp 20:31:18 character/integer representation comes to mind as well. 20:32:14 I wonder how much code that would break 20:32:25 So now you have: flexi-chain, cl-ppcre, cl-interpol/named-readtables But what about maintenaning elisp API compatibility ? 20:33:09 well all those are irrelevant, the elisp API is what counts 20:33:16 I didn't say this was going to be easy 20:33:27 but I kind of forgot about the emacs characters 20:33:36 I bet there's a way to fake it 20:33:57 Hexstream: make sure some of the arguments to LOG is a double float. 20:34:03 sellout: across implementations is nice 20:34:05 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-152-166.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:34:16 sellout: but rvm lets you use implementations in parallel, and switches neatly between them. 20:34:19 sellout: I want that (: 20:34:30 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@83.240.225.146] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 20:34:33 vsedach: they are one and the same... besdise for all the protectionism around Emacs were someone to succeed with a portable Elisp<-->Common Lisp compatibility layer the emacs-devs would prob. do some funny stuff to prevent perceived "user lossage" 20:35:00 pkhuong: Well, do all implementations in use provide double floats? Or maybe I could try to detect if an implementation provides them and use the right way if it does, else use the stupid string length way... 20:35:01 let them worry about that 20:35:32 They already have... its called " called from CL at runtime" 20:35:41 Hexstream: I don't know any implementation that doesn't. 20:36:16 otherwise, you can use integer-length to get an upper bound on log_2, and convert that to log_10. 20:36:51 -!- hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp_] 20:37:11 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@205.233.9.181] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 20:37:33 glidesurfer [~rosario@77-64-171-36.dynamic.primacom.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:35 ok so I guess no one here is a student interested in this project? 20:37:37 pkhuong: Yeah, _3b mentioned that approach earlier, I don't really understand how to convert to log_10... 20:37:41 vsedach: what might be more interesting would be a FFI to the guile API assuming a guile/emacs integration which IMHO is just lip-service 20:37:45 -!- dmytrish [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20:38:00 dmytrish [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:01 yvdriess [~Beef@83.101.52.76] has joined #lisp 20:38:04 Does CLOS define what happens if you re-defclass an existing class? 20:38:13 quotemstr: it does. 20:38:14 Do you create a completely new type distinct from the old type of the same name? 20:38:26 quotemstr: see update-instance-for-redefined-class and related GFs. 20:38:30 I have to admit, I've just used defstruct until now. 20:38:31 Hexstream: 20:38:34 Xach: Danke. 20:38:45 quotemstr: CLOS's class evolution protocl is pretty neat. 20:38:50 protocol, rather. 20:38:57 Maybe a basic question but why is (cos (* 0.5 pi)) not 0 as it ought to be? 20:39:13 Xach: I'm impressed the creators went through that much trouble; most language authors would have either prohibited that behavior or made it undefined. 20:39:21 I hate to say it because wingo is such a nice guy, but less people care about guile than about common lisp 20:39:21 glidesurfer: how do you represent PI in a finite number of bits 20:39:52 vsedach: Can't Guide run CL these days? 20:40:04 Hasn't Guile been transformed into more of a generic-VM, ala Parrot? 20:40:27 pkhuong: but why is (sin (* 0.5 pi)) exactly 1.0? 20:40:33 pkhuong: "pi" has 24 bits on my system. ;-) 20:40:41 Hexstream: another try: (defun decimal-length (n) (let ((estimate (ceiling (integer-length n) 3))) (loop for new-estimate from estimate downto 0 for exp = (expt 10 (1- estimate)) then (truncate exp 10) when (plusp (truncate n exp)) return new-estimate))) 20:40:43 egn [~egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 20:41:18 quotemstr: if it does, their webpage doesn't say it 20:41:47 vsedach: Ah, I was thinking of its elisp support. 20:42:07 glidesurfer: luck. There's only 53 bits of significand in double floats. 20:42:14 There's some pressure for Emacs to switch to Guile. 20:42:33 you can represent PI as continued fractions, alas, CL doesn't have first class continued fractions 20:42:58 stassats: that's "represent exactly as much of pi as you want" ;) 20:45:03 so I could work around with something like (format t "~d~%" (truncate (cos (* 0.5 pi)))) for printing the result to stdout? 20:47:02 (format t "~,3f~%" (cos (* 0.5 pi))) 20:47:53 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-53-100.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:48:05 stassats: I get "-0.00000" then 20:49:05 that looks like too much zeros 20:49:08 quotemstr, vsedach: There was some talk on the Guile mailing list last summer about supporting Common Lisp... But AFAIK it mostly punted on things like #t #f and lisp1 v. lisp2 20:49:15 vsedach: sounds quite difficult... wouldn't it mean porting most if not all of emacs' C code (and quite the fair bit of emacs functionality is C, such as font handling and such) 20:50:15 Xantoz: only some of emacs' C code 20:50:24 a lot of it is support for crap for DOS and stuff 20:50:36 and it doesn't mean porting 20:50:44 just providing an emulation that works 20:50:48 -!- youguy [~youguy@59.pool85-56-15.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 20:51:38 vsedach: Seems like any such effort would be better directed towards lichtblaus HemlockQT with beach's Clim3 as backend :) 20:52:18 a cl-emacs with support for running elisp as well? 20:52:26 mon_key: and with commonqt as a backend for clim3 20:52:51 stassats: I thought it was implicit :) 20:53:19 Xantoz: why bother, just port your elisp over to common-lisp. 20:53:41 Kenjin [~josesanto@83.240.225.146] has joined #lisp 20:54:08 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-152-166.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:54:17 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@83.240.225.146] has quit [Client Quit] 20:54:31 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-53-100.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:54:36 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-211-8.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:54:38 mon_key: what is clim3 and where is the repository? 20:55:12 *sellout* only has about 1/2 million lines of elisp in his ~/.emacs.d 20:55:17 IMO hemlock and climacs are dead ends 20:55:17 vsedach: there is no such thing as a clim3 It was a joke 20:55:26 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-211-8.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:55:31 no one cares about common lisp only emacs 20:55:49 that's why nothing has happened there in the past 10 years 20:55:51 i do! 20:55:55 and all lisp hackers still use gnu emacs 20:56:08 you have to provide a transition path 20:56:10 *sellout* used clim-desktop for a while  20:56:45 *stassats* doesn't like to spend too much time on tools, unless it's paid for 20:56:47 vsedach: I would suggest its the other way around. I came to emacs kicking and screaming b/c it was needed for CL. (Unfortunately I got sucked into tweaking elisp and lost focus) 20:56:52 sellout: how quaint :D 20:57:20 if you provide emacs C functions in common lisp 20:57:40 and implement elisp in common lisp 20:57:54 then you have a path for writing new emacs extensions in common lisp 20:58:20 then people are like "there are all these new extensions for emacs, but they won't run on old emacs" 20:58:22 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-211-8.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:58:33 but the common lisp emacs will be compatible with their old code 20:58:39 so it's not hard for them to switch 20:58:50 and then you hook up clpython 20:58:57 and let people write python 20:59:13 if you aim for success, that's the way you'll have to go 20:59:39 vsedach: You are missing some very fundamental problems around licensing issues that would prevent people from wanting to write common lisp for emacs. Its instant GPL-ware... 21:00:12 ??? 21:00:21 how is this different from the current situation? 21:01:05 mon_key: and that's a problem that would stop you from doing it? 21:01:11 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:01:14 glidesurfer: yep 21:01:30 why? what's your point there? 21:01:45 mon_key: Those decisions have to be made for elisp support anyway. 21:02:00 mon_key: elisp is basically a dynamically-scoped subset of Common Lisp. 21:02:08 (A surprisingly large subset with (require 'cl) and (requre 'eieio)) 21:02:43 binghe [~binghe@115.195.176.73] has joined #lisp 21:04:28 and then there's lexical-let 21:04:36 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@50.10.201.28] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 21:05:05 coderX contracts to write cl-fabulous-mode-FOO that frobs some proprietary pure common-lisp API which he delivers to clientC and says BTW you'll need to run emacs to use this. clientC is compromised if he wants to expose the combination of cl-fabulous-mode-FOO/pure-CL-API 21:05:17 nyef [~nyef@pool-64-222-180-202.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:32 Hello all. 21:05:43 <_3b> vsedach: are you involved in the cliki2 on github using 3bmd? 21:07:33 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:07:37 _3b: yes 21:07:41 Phoodus [~foo@ip68-231-47-70.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:07:56 _3b: I was going to go over your proposal for extending 3bmd 21:08:03 stassats: Well, congratulations stassats, decimal-length seems to work and is much more efficient than other approaches, even (floor (1+ (log i 10))), which inexplicably conses. I don't really understand how your solution works exactly just yet, but for now I'll just treat it as a black box, lazy me! Thanks!! 21:08:28 _3b: although I think pre-processing the wiki files before handing them to 3bmd might work 21:08:29 <_3b> have you tried it on any real data yet? curious how it performs, since i haven't gotten to that point with it on my projects yet :) 21:08:47 -!- binghe [~binghe@115.195.176.73] has left #lisp 21:08:47 _3b: archimag likes to get inside parsers too much 21:08:58 Hexstream: "inexplicably conses"? 21:09:00 personally no, my version had bugs 21:09:12 _3b: archimag says he tried it on cliki data, it works well 21:09:41 nyef: Well, can you explain it, or I messed up and the consing comes from somewhere else? 21:09:49 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@fibhost-66-129-193.fibernet.hu] has joined #lisp 21:09:49 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@fibhost-66-129-193.fibernet.hu] has quit [Changing host] 21:09:49 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 21:09:49 Hexstream: On non-x86 SBCL, LOG involves a full alien function call. 21:10:04 I'm on x86 21:10:13 Not x86-64? 21:10:15 <_3b> cool, it seems a bit slower/larger than the C parser it was based on, couldn't tell how bad it would be in normal use though 21:10:17 No. 21:10:20 Hrm. 21:11:01 On the one hand, DISASSEMBLE. 21:11:31 On the other hand, something seems to be screaming "LDB of DOUBLE-FLOAT-HIGH-BITS!" 21:11:43 <_3b> not sure how much of that could be fixed by tuning esrap, and how much would need redesign 21:11:50 Well, it doesn't seem (floor (1+ (log 999999999 10))) itself conses, after all. I'll lisppaste my benchmark and results. 21:12:01 -!- tmh [635b0bae@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:12:51 ... (floor (1+ (log 100 10))) ? 21:13:34 nyef: http://paste.lisp.org/display/120636 21:14:15 -!- vilsonvieira [~vilson@h08100.ifsc.usp.br] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 21:14:50 gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 21:15:26 sacho [~sacho@46.10.16.35] has joined #lisp 21:15:28 ... I get the distinct feeling that there's insufficient information for the compiler somewhere in that mess... 21:19:08 Ugh. Full call to LOG, use of GENERIC-+, full call to %UNARY-TRUNCATE (for FLOOR)... 21:19:21 I am horribly unsurprised about the consing. 21:20:37 euangelion [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:21:41 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-157-151.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:09 bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-31-28-194.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:17 Hunh. Why's it doing a full call with known input type? 21:24:40 I'm happy to have introduced a bit of mystery in your day! 21:25:51 garfieldairIines [~myst@wikipedia/myst] has joined #lisp 21:26:24 timack [~tim@hlfx56-2b-23.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 21:27:41 ... On the one hand, the source is clearly wrong. On the other hand, WTF doesn't the compiler fix this up? 21:28:34 The source is wrong? 21:28:56 There's a log10 function. 21:29:33 Hrm. 21:29:53 Okay, double back on that, it's not /defined/, but the compiler knows about it? 21:30:26 *_3b* only sees %log10 using apropos 21:31:13 Right, WTF? 21:31:31 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:32:16 -!- garfieldairIines is now known as Myst 21:32:49 pnq [~nick@AC8140CB.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 21:33:37 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has quit [Quit: pa bye] 21:33:38 -!- Myst [~myst@wikipedia/myst] has quit [Quit: 2.21 gigawatts !] 21:33:48 <_3b> and then only if not on x86, wonder if there is another hidden elsewhere 21:34:02 There's a VOP for it on x86. 21:34:07 <_3b> ah 21:34:19 (Two, really, but one is part of the long-float support, which is typically disabled.) 21:34:22 -!- alama [~alama@a79-169-91-6.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: alama] 21:34:52 seangrove [~user@c-98-234-242-172.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:54 And it's just plain not used anywhere. 21:37:38 youguy [~youguy@59.pool85-56-15.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 21:37:49 -!- spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-13-34.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: .] 21:37:58 -!- youguy [~youguy@59.pool85-56-15.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:38:34 I'm going to mark this down as part of "the logarithm disaster". 21:39:55 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:40:31 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 21:41:09 grr [~5d887cf0@ns1.smartcall.bg] has joined #lisp 21:41:20 am0c_ [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has joined #lisp 21:42:01 hello. can somebody recommend me a portable CL socket library? 21:42:16 <_3b> minion: tell grr about iolib 21:42:18 grr: have a look at iolib: I/O(mainly networking) library containing: a BSD sockets library, a DNS resolver and an I/O multiplexer that supports select(2), epoll(4) and kqueue(2). http://www.cliki.net/iolib 21:42:21 <_3b> minion: tell grr about usocket 21:42:21 grr: have a look at usocket: USOCKET is a networking portability layer for BSD-style sockets. http://www.cliki.net/usocket 21:42:38 thanks 21:44:01 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 21:46:27 HG` [~HG@dslb-188-109-169-172.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:41 thanks everybody for offering input on the CL emacs port 21:47:13 let's see if my summer code monkey student can pull it off :) 21:49:41 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:51:37 -!- vsedach [4546541a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.69.70.84.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:51:58 vsedach: Doesn't help you but someone on the xemacs lisp has wanted to move xemacs to use common-lisp, probably via ecl. AFAIK, nothing has been done. 21:52:21 nyef: What is the "logarithm disaster"? 21:53:17 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 21:53:40 something more mild than an exponential disaster? 21:53:59 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:22 -!- Ragnaroek [~Adium@p5B0C58F3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:55:03 Hexstream: One possible issue is that 999999999 doesn't fit in a exactly in a single-float, so (log 999999999 10) may not be quite what you want. 21:56:05 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:56:27 -!- coffeemug [~coffeemug@adsl-76-254-59-240.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:56:30 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 21:56:54 coffeemug [~coffeemug@adsl-76-254-59-240.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:32 youguy [~youguy@59.pool85-56-15.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 21:58:00 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:58:37 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:01:13 -!- superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.148] has quit [Quit: superflit] 22:02:23 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:04:26 rtoym: Overhead on 1-arg LOG on non-x86 is obnoxiously high. 22:04:42 -!- gz [gz@clozure-93943513.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout] 22:05:06 Good morning everyone! 22:05:12 Hello beach. 22:05:38 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:16:05 -!- youguy [~youguy@59.pool85-56-15.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 22:16:10 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159931.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 22:17:10 -!- codelurker [~codelurke@99.55.95.55] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 22:19:29 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:21:10 nyef: Really? Not just a (fairly quick) FFI call? That's how most things like sinh are done. Or are you saying all of those are obnoxiously high? 22:21:28 Oh. call_into_c is fairly big. 22:23:01 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:17 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:31:19 -!- fihi09`` [~user@pool-71-190-69-241.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:34:33 -!- mydik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:35:57 mydik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:04 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has left #lisp 22:39:41 Yeah, it starts to look like most of the cost /is/ the call overhead. 22:40:06 -!- mydik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:47:06 -!- euangelion [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:48:03 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-92-126-186.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:50:30 -!- adobriyan [~ad@vulture2-nat-42.telecom.by] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:51:11 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-80-119.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:52:52 lambda [lambda@c-76-118-155-244.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:09 euangelion [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:56:53 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 22:59:37 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-31-28-194.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 23:01:34 -!- fisted [~fisted@unaffiliated/fisted] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:02:08 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:06:23 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755ec7.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:12:32 -!- keyvan [~keyvan@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:12:56 ltriant [~ltriant@124-168-76-146.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 23:15:59 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has left #lisp 23:21:03 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 23:21:03 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:21:47 -!- timack [~tim@hlfx56-2b-23.ns.sympatico.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:24:02 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.149.223] has joined #lisp 23:24:07 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 23:24:38 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:29 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:51 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.149.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:31:09 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.149.223] has joined #lisp 23:33:24 tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.66.60] has joined #lisp 23:33:47 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-100-131.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:34:02 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:10 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-74-247.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 23:37:21 OliverUv [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has joined #lisp 23:37:22 -!- gozek [~quassel@56.165.216.87.static.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:37:31 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.19] has joined #lisp 23:38:02 bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:12 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@83.101.52.76] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:38:51 timack [~tim@hlfx56-2b-23.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 23:39:29 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:42:14 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-74-247.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:50:05 longshot_ [~longshot@180.184.9.158] has joined #lisp 23:50:31 -!- longshot_ is now known as Guest45343 23:54:19 tolstoy [~Keith@74-95-41-77-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:54:23 -!- longshot [~longshot@216.131.74.24] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:54:35 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:55:44 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:55:46 minion: memo for vsedach: if you want to write emacs extensions in Common Lisp, you can already do it today, with emacs-cl. Perhaps it would be easier to perfect this CL implementation, and write emacs extensions in CL of general interest with it, to motivate the troops for an emacs entirely written in CL. 23:55:46 Remembered. I'll tell vsedach when he/she/it next speaks. 23:55:53 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:56:21 -!- masonium [~user@vpn.tgsmc.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:56:21 ... not that there aren't three or four emacsen entirely written in CL already... 23:57:01 <_3b> not gnu emacs compatible ones though, which i gathered was a goal 23:57:02 nyef: but people don't use them, because emacs packages of general interest don't run on them. Eg. org-mode, tex-mode, c++-mode, etc. 23:57:47 Even lispers need general interest emacs packages, such as gnus, vm, erc, etc... 23:57:53 C++-mode isn't exactly on my desired feature list, but I wouldn't want to give up org-mode... 23:58:06 nyef: say that at ITA. 23:58:33 Which part? 23:58:38 C++ 23:58:48 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-182-113.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:58:48 they use it to implement internal stuff of the lisp software. 23:58:59 they lisp software. 23:59:01 Meh. I'm sure they'd understand. 23:59:06 s/they/their/ 23:59:10 <_3b> version control modes would be a hassle to lose too 23:59:44 Sp. you really need a good backward compatible mode, because transition will takes tens of years.