00:00:02 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has quit [Quit: bye] 00:03:19 nyef: I've done something like that before 00:03:26 (eval (funcall (macro-function 'and) '(and 1 2) nil)) 00:03:27 the differentiation thing 00:03:41 It's on SICP too 00:03:43 johanbev [~johanbev@159.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 00:04:23 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-31-28-194.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 00:04:55 couldn't one write a macro so that (and '(1 2 3 4)) gets evaluated to (and 1 2 3 4) ? that way it would not matter if and was a function or a macro 00:05:35 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:05:56 tr3x: Sure, if the values are constants, which is not a very interesting case. 00:06:09 tr3x: well, that would be bad because and of one thing should return that one thing 00:06:11 leif [~user@ool-18bac6ad.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:06:26 -!- leif [~user@ool-18bac6ad.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:07:01 tr3x: you could define a special case for and of one argument, but that would make writing macros that use and more complicated (have to check for the 1 case) 00:08:03 fexprs would be nice 00:08:07 tr3x: in the general case, 'flatten macro arguments' isn't interesting because they can have arbitrary syntax. in the case of AND, it nearly always is easy to pick either and or every #'identity 00:08:24 the problem is writing a SSC to eval at the compile time the subset of them that can be 00:08:31 s/the// 00:09:29 oconnore [~eric@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:10:47 Is anyone familiar with the multitracker extension to bittorrent? 00:11:10 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 00:11:47 -!- Soulman1 [~knute@250.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 00:13:28 -!- dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-102-50.xnet.hr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:16:01 sbahra 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[~Adium@c-71-225-63-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:35:49 pnkfelix1 [~Adium@c-71-225-63-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:36:12 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-63-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:37:22 -!- loke [~elias@bb119-74-214-148.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:37:58 lifeng [~lifeng@155.69.43.70] has joined #lisp 00:39:23 Edisto [~IceChat7@c-67-169-114-235.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:39:33 when a genetic algorithm is off by a few numbers and doesn't repeat the same answer when you rerun it what do you need to adjust? 00:40:41 Your PRNG seed. 00:40:53 seangrove [~user@c-98-234-242-172.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:41:52 borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:15 prng? 00:43:26 sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:28 pseudo random number generator 00:44:14 so the probability like the crossover and mutation or the number that they react off of? 00:44:37 They get their randomness from somewhere, right? 00:44:53 And radnom number generators are seeded at some point. 00:46:27 i gotcha thanks 00:47:02 rootlocus [~rootlocus@atp-jolyon.dynhost.nicta.com.au] has joined #lisp 00:48:16 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h134n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:49:09 carlo_au [~carlo@ppp59-167-15-211.lns1.syd6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:52 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:50:10 katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:50:10 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 00:50:10 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 00:52:40 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.114.162.173] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:52:51 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Client Quit] 00:53:03 Mococa 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quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:22:00 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 02:24:16 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:26:27 wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-24-193-121-20.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:28:56 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:33:00 nixfreak [~nixfreak@mn-10k-dhcp1-3174.dsl.hickorytech.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:09 does anyone here run cmucl ? 02:33:29 -!- waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-5d87f83e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:33:29 Rarely. 02:33:38 hmm 02:33:46 I speak only for myself. 02:33:48 I like it alot and trying to run hemlock 02:34:06 Hemlock is used in ccl IDE too. 02:34:10 but motif keeps dying on my 02:34:26 I tried it on MacOSX. 02:37:01 is it any good 02:37:31 Looked nice on MacOSX, yes. 02:37:45 also does common lisp have a package manager 02:37:50 -!- xristos [~x@2001:470:8859:cafe:20c:29ff:fe47:788] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:37:52 like python or ruby 02:37:55 Hemlock is ok. The problem is that it doesn't run all the emacs lisp packages you might be used to. 02:38:03 nixfreak: quicklisp 02:38:28 ok 02:38:35 Adamant [~Adamant@97-83-97-117.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:38:35 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@97-83-97-117.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 02:38:35 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 02:44:06 enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-76-171-245-75.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:44:34 is SlIME really the best IDE ? 02:44:51 I like vim but looking at slime looks pretty nice 02:45:26 waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@vpn-136-001.rz.uni-augsburg.de] has joined #lisp 02:46:16 Yeah I cam from vim to emacs due to slime 02:46:20 Now I just use emacs :) 02:48:16 lol 02:48:58 hehe 02:49:12 SLIME is awesome, indeed. 02:50:11 -!- tsuru [~charlie@adsl-87-47-213.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:50:44 is there anything wrong with cmucl 02:52:36 nixfreak: the only thing wrong with cmucl is that the procedure to generate a new version of cmucl is complex. 02:52:55 nixfreak: sbcl is a fork of cmucl which solved this problem, so there's a new version of sbcl each month. 02:53:04 nixfreak: therefore sbcl improves faster than cmucl. 02:53:13 bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:26 and bootstrapping CMUCL nowadays might be a ... challenge :-) 02:53:40 does sbcl have the same performance as cmucl 02:54:11 better, generally, i think 02:54:12 nixfreak: basically. They use the same compiler, python. But then, sbcl has been improved, so it might be faster than cmucl nowadays. I don't know. 02:57:47 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h134n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 03:00:56 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-182-139.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:41 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@nat/cisco/x-kmdpjtuirqvkbojy] has joined #lisp 03:01:45 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@nat/cisco/x-kmdpjtuirqvkbojy] has quit [Changing host] 03:01:45 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has joined #lisp 03:01:52 yeah there isnt a lot of difference between sbcl and cmucl 03:02:31 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:12:46 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:14:30 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 03:14:33 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:15:17 cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.139.95.133] has joined #lisp 03:16:27 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:19:22 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:19:47 -!- pnkfelix1 [~Adium@c-71-225-63-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:19:58 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 03:20:17 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.114.162.173] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:20:56 -!- waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@vpn-136-001.rz.uni-augsburg.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:25:36 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-120-35.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:15 -!- guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-ierrjfkqvbzjoxnv] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:27:17 bigjust [~bigjust@justin.caratzas.org] has joined #lisp 03:28:03 guther [~guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-infpekaneyslemcl] has joined #lisp 03:28:36 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.227.24] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:28:37 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 03:31:10 is (setf undefined variable 10) legal lisp? I'm getting a warning in sbcl, no warning in clisp 03:31:16 undefined-variable 03:32:00 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 03:32:20 tr3x: sbcl is more pedantic about defining things beforehand. it should still work though despite the warning. 03:33:58 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:34:50 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 03:36:59 ok, so it's conforming to standard lisp and sbcl is just being overly pedantic 03:38:18 waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-5d87f83e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:38:36 tr3x: yes. 03:39:36 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-32-14-244.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:39:37 Atomsk [~ace4016@adsl-32-14-244.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:40:05 -!- bigjust [~bigjust@justin.caratzas.org] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 03:40:54 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:41:21 -!- SpitfireWP_ is now known as SpitfireWP 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#lisp 04:19:43 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:20:49 -!- vmmenon [~vmmenon@72-255-46-6.client.stsn.net] has quit [Quit: vmmenon] 04:24:54 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-24-4-147-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 04:25:54 tr3x: it's confoming that sbcl signals a warning, but your code is not conforming, that's why sbcl conformingly may warn you. 04:25:57 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-gkiitvcwiuczszau] has joined #lisp 04:25:57 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-gkiitvcwiuczszau] has quit [Changing host] 04:25:57 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 04:26:21 The conforming code is: (let ((undefined-variable 10)) ...) or (defparameter *undefined-variable* 10) ... 04:27:08 tr3x: I can't wait for nanobots and implementations that would conformingly make dragons out of your nose. 04:27:52 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-jwxjojglslnzmjnc] has joined #lisp 04:30:51 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping 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[~Adamant@97-83-97-117.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:43:38 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@97-83-97-117.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 04:43:39 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 04:54:23 . 05:01:03 hello 05:01:19 is anyone familiar with paul graham's ray tracer program from ACL? 05:03:02 Ooooh ray tracer 05:05:33 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-32-14-244.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 05:07:07 -!- Atomsk [~ace4016@adsl-32-14-244.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:07:41 cesarbp: on cll there's some threads about ray tracers in lisp. 05:08:00 -!- flow3r [~flow3r@61.111.10.20] has left #lisp 05:08:02 sorry, what's cll? 05:08:09 news://comp.lang.lisp 05:09:02 my quirk was more about the "better" solution in graham crackers 05:09:06 because it doesn't work :p 05:09:24 but i'll check those thanks 05:09:26 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:10:01 -!- silentbicycle 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katesmith_ [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 05:36:40 DEFVAR: non-symbol (CAR (LIST 'A)) cannot be a variable 05:36:46 (type-of (car (list 'a))) => SYMBOL 05:36:50 ? 05:37:34 right, but (CAR (LIST 'A)) is a list 05:37:46 what do you want to do? 05:38:09 (setf (symbol-value (car (list 'a))) 23)? 05:38:16 i was trying to make a defvar macro that allowed for multiple assignment 05:38:16 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:38:26 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:38:37 multiple assignment? what's that? 05:38:55 (defvar* a 1 b 2 c 3) 05:39:15 like setf 05:39:43 how is (car (list 'a)) a list, and not a symbol? [a] 05:39:53 it has parenthesis! 05:40:10 but... it evaluates? even type-of says it's a symbol! 05:40:32 if you evaluate it, yes, the result will be a symbol 05:40:38 but you don't 05:40:41 o_O 05:41:00 paste your macro 05:41:03 lisppaste: url? 05:41:04 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 05:41:12 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:41:13 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 05:42:44 landr pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120589 05:42:47 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.8.159.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:42:51 Deathaholic [~Mococa@186.214.255.144] has joined #lisp 05:43:42 Landr: it should be ,(car list), not (car ,list) 05:43:56 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 05:44:03 -!- Justsomerandomgu [~none@67.169.7.215] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:44:19 why? i thought list would be literal, and only ,list contained the actual list 05:44:33 it will 05:44:46 but you want to take a CAR of it 05:45:21 *Landr* is confused 05:45:38 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.255.144] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:46:05 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:46:36 welp, it works 05:46:55 (also had to adjust the last bit to ,@list, and it still goes on forever doing nil nil nil, but it works 05:46:56 compare: (let ((list '(4 3 2 1))) `(list (car ,list) ,(car list))) => (LIST (CAR (4 3 2 1)) 4) 05:47:37 right, you'd need a termination test for recurstion 05:47:46 hmm 05:48:22 or use `(progn ,@(loop for (variable value) on list by #'cddr collect `(defvar ,variable ,value)))) 05:48:26 so: ,list evaluates to the whole list, whereas ,(car list) evaluates to the car of the list? 05:48:36 naturally 05:48:51 ahh, i see 05:49:18 it doesn't know to interpret (4 3 2 1) as a list 05:49:36 i mean, as (list 4 3 2 1) 05:50:05 but (car (list ,@list)) == ,(car list) ? 05:50:45 not really 05:51:55 (defmacro test (&rest list) `(print ,(car list))) == (defmacro test (&rest list) `(print (car (list ,@list)))) ... at least, to me they seem to 05:52:08 *Landr* ponders this 05:52:34 did you macroexpand them? 05:53:08 do you use slime? 05:53:20 clisp 05:53:57 in slime you can write (test 1 2 3), place a point at the opening parenthesis, hit C-c C-m and get a macroexpansion 05:54:41 you can, of course, macroexpand manually with macroexpand-1 05:54:53 koning_robot [~user@s5597d50c.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #lisp 05:55:08 so, do you see the difference in macroexpansions? 05:55:20 hang on 05:56:13 (PRINT (CAR (LIST 1 2 3))) for the ,@list one, and (PRINT 1) ; for the ,(car list) one 05:56:42 right 05:56:53 beach` [~user@116.118.73.75] has joined #lisp 05:57:22 well, that's what i expected it'd do... i mean, the end-result is the same thing 05:57:53 *Landr* checks up on the comma 05:57:54 when evaluated, it'll be the same, but, it's not always will be evaluated, like in the first place of DEFVAR 05:58:10 -!- beach [~user@116.118.73.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:58:40 >Where a comma occurs in the template, the expression following the comma is to be evaluated to produce an object to be inserted at that point. 05:58:45 ahh, of course! 05:58:52 it's not just an escape character 05:59:11 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-sowynyinbytornav] has joined #lisp 05:59:46 -!- borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:59:46 ok, so that makes sense 05:59:52 thanks :> 06:05:10 sylecn [~sylecn@cpe-70-112-211-195.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:07:40 comma is like an unquote. 06:08:58 katesmith__ [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 06:09:02 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:10:25 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-32-14-244.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 06:10:26 Atomsk [ace4016@adsl-32-14-244.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 06:10:53 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 06:11:23 -!- katesmith_ [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:12:09 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 06:13:32 skeptical_p [~rononovsk@bzq-79-181-184-222.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 06:14:35 katesmith_ [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 06:15:23 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:16:46 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:17:21 -!- sylecn [~sylecn@cpe-70-112-211-195.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [] 06:17:23 -!- katesmith__ [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:21:47 borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:21:57 keyvan- [~keyvan@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:29:11 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 06:29:25 nostoi [~nostoi@28.Red-79-156-244.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 06:30:11 -!- Deathaholic [~Mococa@186.214.255.144] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:30:50 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:30:53 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:31:26 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:31:47 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.139.95.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:32:12 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 06:34:27 http://kajs.co.nz/images/graph.png <-- made a silly graph gizmo and am measuring random number distrobution 06:34:28 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-123.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:34:45 frist semi usefull graphical gizmo made in common lisp :) 06:36:23 Next task is to make a gizmo to join the points to make a straight line, and also put in the axis 06:36:36 jsoft: in finally (return (progn ...)), you can write that as "finally (when (eql a b) (setf x y)) (return ...)" 06:36:37 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-gdghwukobeaujauw] has joined #lisp 06:36:37 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-gdghwukobeaujauw] has quit [Changing host] 06:36:37 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 06:38:08 Ragnaroek [~Adium@p5B0C3AD9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:38:12 Ahh I see 06:39:39 Actually that would be longer 06:40:01 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@28.Red-79-156-244.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 06:40:27 -!- easyE [vhsgDVuKsI@panix2.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:41:21 what would be? 06:41:49 finally (when (eql ... (return 06:42:21 I suppose as it is now I dont need (return ) anyway. 06:42:41 -!- McMAGIC-- [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:43:04 -!- vilsonvieira [~vilson@h08100.ifsc.usp.br] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:43:21 vilsonvieira [~vilson@h08100.ifsc.usp.br] has joined #lisp 06:43:53 jsoft: longer than what? 06:44:12 McMAGIC-- [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--] has joined #lisp 06:44:13 than what's currently? i don't see how it's longer, you get rid of PROGN 06:44:57 I need to do both whens 06:45:03 yes 06:45:37 : 06:45:47 Adamant_ [~Adamant@97-83-97-117.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 06:45:47 -!- Adamant_ [~Adamant@97-83-97-117.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 06:45:47 Adamant_ [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 06:46:26 I dont get you. 06:46:38 what you don't get? 06:46:48 Exactly what you are proposing 06:47:06 exactly what i pasted earlier 06:47:29 does finally accept more than one form? 06:47:39 Otherwise I dont see how a single when will work. 06:47:42 naturally 06:48:08 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:48:08 -!- Adamant_ is now known as Adamant 06:48:47 Hm 06:48:52 as all other loop form executing directives 06:49:57 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:49:59 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-123.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:50:02 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has joined #lisp 06:50:19 But I still dont see how it would be shorter. 06:50:23 Ohhh hang on. 06:50:24 06:50:27 no PROGN 06:51:25 Ahh yep 06:51:45 For some reason I was reading your code wrong, thinking you put the (return ) inside the when 06:51:52 Changed :) 06:52:08 progn gone :) 06:52:14 -!- churib [~churib@95.156.194.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:52:18 doesn't your IRC client have paren highlighting? 06:52:58 It does, just did not think to move over them. 06:53:20 and why do you use sdl? is it intercative or moving, or something? 06:53:28 i'd use vecto for still images 06:54:53 Yes it is moving 06:54:54 pholasek [~pholasek_@2001:67c:1220:c1b0:21e:37ff:fecb:baa0] has joined #lisp 06:57:21 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 06:58:40 churib [~churib@95.156.194.105] has joined #lisp 07:01:23 danlentz [~textual@c-68-46-98-23.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:01:32 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:02:00 mgindulescu [~mircea@nat/nokia/x-dzkunhhyevwzacqx] has joined #lisp 07:02:06 xristos [~x@2001:470:8859:cafe:20c:29ff:fe47:788] has joined #lisp 07:02:09 -!- xristos is now known as Guest75031 07:02:31 -!- mgindulescu [~mircea@nat/nokia/x-dzkunhhyevwzacqx] has left #lisp 07:02:45 -!- fisted [~fisted@unaffiliated/fisted] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:03:59 -!- Ragnaroek [~Adium@p5B0C3AD9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:03:59 stassats`: vecto doesn't give you a window in which to display the image 07:04:19 you can display it in emacs 07:06:11 yes, but you can't control the display from CL like you can with lispbuilder-sdl 07:06:30 you can write an image viewer for lispbuilder-sdl! 07:06:52 (I've been taking the path you're advocating, btw) 07:06:52 or mcclim 07:07:21 (i'd use commonqt) 07:07:31 and we're back to the integration issue that fe[nl]ix mentioned a couple days ago... 07:08:44 well, yes, that would be nice too... (smoke build problems on macos :( ) 07:08:49 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:10:46 Davsebamse [~das@94.127.50.104] has joined #lisp 07:10:53 astoon [~astoon@178-16-146-17.obit.ru] has joined #lisp 07:13:16 *slyrus* discovers that home is 9 latitude minutes north of fukushima 07:15:16 tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:15:56 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:16:01 :D 07:16:08 so much fun was had mincing around with this gizmo 07:17:31 Liera [~user@113.172.35.57] has joined #lisp 07:20:04 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has joined #lisp 07:20:04 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has quit [Changing host] 07:20:04 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 07:21:23 waaaaaargh_ [~waaaaargh@agsb-5d87ff9f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:22:24 leo2007 [~leo@114.249.193.4] has joined #lisp 07:24:16 fisted [~fisted@unaffiliated/fisted] has joined #lisp 07:25:05 -!- waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-5d87f83e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:25:17 Landr: macros are to transform code into code. So the question is to what code you want your (defvar* ...) expand to? 07:25:35 Landr: I'd propose: (defvar* a 1 b 2 ...) --> (progn (defvar a 1) (defvar b 2) ...) 07:25:48 Landr: then it's trivial to write a function implementing such a transformation. 07:27:34 didn't i do that already? 07:28:10 Lacked the explication. 07:28:47 fantazo_ [~fantazo@178-191-161-153.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 07:28:51 -!- Guest75031 [~x@2001:470:8859:cafe:20c:29ff:fe47:788] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:29:16 -!- tenawa [~user@adsl-75-53-123-94.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:29:55 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-157-151.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:30:30 Aiwass [~Aiwass4@188.26.203.226] has joined #lisp 07:30:45 peterhil` [~peterhil@a91-153-112-241.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 07:31:20 -!- koning_robot [~user@s5597d50c.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:31:25 -!- pholasek [~pholasek_@2001:67c:1220:c1b0:21e:37ff:fecb:baa0] has quit [Quit: pholasek] 07:32:11 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-190-232-4.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:36:51 64MAAGHI5 [~michael@117.32.153.145] has joined #lisp 07:38:33 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-211-13.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:40:08 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-184-234.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:47:06 xristos_ [~x@2001:470:8859:cafe:20c:29ff:fe47:788] has joined #lisp 07:48:31 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:49:06 wobh [~user@97-120-5-5.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 07:55:31 -!- wobh [~user@97-120-5-5.ptld.qwest.net] has left #lisp 07:55:39 -!- aidalgol [aidan@2002:453d:f72::1337:3] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:57:56 aidalgol [aidan@2002:453d:f72::1337:3] has joined #lisp 07:58:23 youguy [~youguy@11.Red-193-152-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:59:15 -!- vilsonvieira [~vilson@h08100.ifsc.usp.br] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 08:00:50 Ragnaroek [~Adium@gw249-1.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 08:08:12 adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 08:08:33 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-24-192.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:10:20 ltriant [~ltriant@124-168-76-146.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 08:10:21 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-53-100.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo] 08:11:00 -!- beach` is now known as beach 08:11:26 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-77-220.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:11:27 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 08:12:00 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-74-247.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 08:13:04 -!- Salamander_ is now known as Salamander 08:14:23 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:16:33 -!- youguy [~youguy@11.Red-193-152-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - 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http://colloquy.mobi] 08:43:23 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-5-180.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:44:05 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-5-180.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 08:47:45 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 08:49:07 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 08:51:08 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:55:35 wim` [~user@ipleiden.intellimagic.net] has joined #lisp 08:59:52 Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.116.155] has joined #lisp 09:00:09 -!- longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:00:22 tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 09:01:20 -!- jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:01:53 longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has joined #lisp 09:03:15 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-npxpiklxvnlsgpsu] has joined #lisp 09:03:15 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-npxpiklxvnlsgpsu] has quit [Changing host] 09:03:16 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 09:04:33 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 09:04:49 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.116.155] has quit [Quit: ] 09:05:15 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:07:15 -!- rme [~rme@pool-68-238-4-125.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 09:07:36 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:11:48 -!- keyvan- [~keyvan@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:14:35 Rukowen [~Rukowen@113.162.163.76] has joined #lisp 09:14:50 Hello Rukowen 09:15:45 beach, good afternoon prof 09:16:08 beach, how are you? 09:16:15 Fine, thanks, and you? 09:16:23 With respect to your IDE problems, I prefer that you use Emacs+SLIME on Linux. 09:16:27 c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-nkawwhnmwvvyqaup] has joined #lisp 09:16:41 beach, when you will show your presentation on lisp? 09:16:47 beach, i'm fine 09:17:22 Rukowen: I go to Bordeaux for two weeks on Saturday. Lisp presentations will be when I get back. 09:17:36 yes, someone on #lisp have told me so 09:19:30 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-064-190-154.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:20:08 ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 09:20:34 Mekanik [~vov@91.79.155.28] has joined #lisp 09:20:44 minion: slime.mov? 09:20:44 slime.mov: "using SLIME" video by Marco Baringer, http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov 09:20:49 Rukowen: have you seen this? 09:25:04 stassats`, not yet stassats` 09:25:47 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 09:26:51 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:27:21 adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 09:28:37 greaver [~jo@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 09:30:23 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:31:02 orivej [~orivej@wi99.fi.pu.ru] has joined #lisp 09:31:17 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:31:57 -!- fantazo_ [~fantazo@178-191-161-153.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:32:17 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 09:34:52 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-74-247.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 09:35:05 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-5-180.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:35:11 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-5-180.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 09:36:43 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 09:37:06 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has left #lisp 09:38:01 snearch [~snearch@f053001191.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:39:23 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:39:42 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-74-247.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 09:41:02 -!- Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:41:14 Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:41:33 I'm sorry about the network. It's unstable because the fiber cable was broken at the ocean base 09:41:38 cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.78] has joined #lisp 09:41:46 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.78] has quit [Changing host] 09:41:46 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 09:42:59 beach, have you considered our solution? 09:43:08 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-5-180.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:43:37 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:43:53 we're keeping continue on image processing 09:44:34 Rukowen: Can you give a quick summary of what you have done so far? 09:45:52 beach, sure, we'll email you soon 09:49:26 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip68-231-47-70.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:53:51 urandom__ [~user@p548A76F6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:53:52 Odaym [~unix@212.36.209.4] has joined #lisp 09:54:25 argiopeweb [~elliot@adsl-65-166-30.dab.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 09:55:29 -!- benny [~benny@i577A3D2B.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:57:24 Zeiris [~Zeiris@S010600a0d1423e73.no.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 09:58:19 stipet [~user@ua.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 10:02:26 Rukowen_ [~Rukowen@113.162.163.76] has joined #lisp 10:02:27 -!- Rukowen [~Rukowen@113.162.163.76] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:04:31 -!- QinGW [~wangqingw@60.247.26.3] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:10:12 -!- Edisto [~IceChat7@c-67-169-114-235.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Life without danger is a waste of oxygen] 10:10:46 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-152-167.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 10:13:31 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 10:14:57 paradoja [~paradoja@acceso-cmp174-132.lpa.idec.net] has joined #lisp 10:15:18 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 10:16:32 -!- orivej [~orivej@wi99.fi.pu.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:17:28 i need some help 10:17:41 with what? 10:17:50 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@155.69.43.70] has left #lisp 10:17:56 (defun reflex-rational --vacuum-agent (percept) 10:17:57 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:17:59 what does this line do? 10:18:16 defines a function called reflex-rational which takes a parameter 'percept'? 10:18:56 what's --vacuum-agent? 10:19:07 that's what i'm trying to know as well 10:19:26 it doesn't make any sense 10:19:53 tcr [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 10:20:16 ok so if we forget that line, it would be a function that takes a parameter 'percept' 10:20:18 should it be reflex-rational-vacuum-agent? did you copy it from pdf or something? 10:20:28 -!- leo2007 [~leo@114.249.193.4] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:20:36 yes sir 10:20:43 i guess it's just a big name yea? 10:21:09 well, yes, that looks like a copying error 10:21:31 so, indeed, it defines a function reflex-rational-vacuum-agent which takes one argument 10:22:20 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-162-226.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 10:23:42 bjobae [4db05548@gateway/web/freenode/ip.77.176.85.72] has joined #lisp 10:23:59 stassats`, http://imgur.com/rakAQrakAQ 10:24:40 that's not found, i presume it's http://imgur.com/rakAQ 10:24:59 yes 10:25:16 Odaym: right, that's just wrong formatting, and it's not destructuring --bind, but destructuring-bind 10:25:28 and what's that do? 10:25:41 clhs destructuring-bind 10:25:41 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_destru.htm 10:28:06 and it still looks quite garbled, it should be (destructuring-bind (location status) percept ...) 10:28:25 i don't suppose you could use this as a source of code if are not well-versed in CL already 10:28:34 -!- longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:28:41 true 10:28:56 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:28:57 still very new to CL 10:29:00 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:29:45 what i'm asked to do is design a vacuum cleaner agent that can move Left, Right and Suck. When there is dirt in room A, suck, and when there isn't, go to Room B, and so on between A and B 10:30:18 am0c [~am0c@58.76.165.206] has joined #lisp 10:30:22 i made the functions left and right that increment and decrement from the variable location, 1 10:30:28 that's from AIMA, i guess 10:30:53 it is 10:31:34 yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 10:32:32 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:34:04 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:34:32 -!- Landr [~vser@78-22-153-17.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:34:33 I dislike that book with a passion 10:34:47 good morning 10:37:59 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 10:38:01 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 10:38:30 -!- adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 10:39:45 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:40:02 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-lnnuysqgsmsqlsfn] has joined #lisp 10:40:02 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-lnnuysqgsmsqlsfn] has quit [Changing host] 10:40:03 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 10:41:15 mvilleneuve, everytime I prepare to stop my working day, i hear "good morning" from you 10:41:51 mvilleneuve, it makes me fell a day becomes longer. ha ha 10:42:07 Rukowen_: sorry that I made you work longer today :) 10:42:59 jsoftw [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 10:43:00 mvilleneuve, just for fun ^^ 10:43:44 can 'cond' be used separately? 10:44:21 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:44:33 what do you mean with separately? 10:44:48 i see it here in a "destructing-bind" 10:45:08 cond has nothing to do with destructuring-bind 10:45:12 i want to be able to compare the value i get from prompt, with a value i have, and if equal, act upon that 10:47:45 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-211-13.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:48:01 Odaym: perhaps you should find a more entry-level book. 10:48:30 definitely 10:49:36 would you like some recommendations? 10:49:53 yes 10:50:01 because i've been through theree so far 10:51:32 which ones? 10:51:36 and what's your background? 10:52:21 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-211-13.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:52:32 Bronsa [~brace@host201-184-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 10:52:45 i tried PCL, and the guide that comes with Allegro 10:52:55 and another one that i dont remember 10:53:55 youguy [~youguy@11.Red-193-152-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:01:25 Odaym: what do yuou mean "I tried"? 11:01:37 Odaym: did you read and study them or not? 11:03:41 -!- youguy [~youguy@11.Red-193-152-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 11:04:06 just to extract the stuff i need from it 11:04:11 for the time being 11:04:39 Odaym: that's the problem. You cannot program in lisp by copy-and-pasting. 11:04:47 You really need to study it. 11:05:05 You may want to read and study again, the smallest introduction, Allegro's. 11:05:41 -!- Pepe_ [~ppjet@bouah.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:06:09 look at what i have so far 11:06:10 http://pastebin.com/DYhAg5mW 11:06:14 and this was not copying and pasting 11:08:41 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-5-180.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 11:09:13 drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 11:10:27 Odaym: have you been told to name special variables with stars arround their name? 11:10:42 Pepe_ [~ppjet@bouah.net] has joined #lisp 11:10:43 PCL says that this is what a global variable is 11:10:51 yes. (defvar *location* 0) (defvar *state* 0) (defvar *utility*) 11:11:02 i want that? ok 11:11:18 If you don't do that, be prepared to spend a couple of days to debug silly bugs in your programs. 11:11:37 you see what i'm trying to do in Begin ()? 11:11:56 get the prompt, compare it to "clean" or "dirty" and do something according to the result 11:12:08 prompt-for-state takes ONE parameter. Why do you give it three arguments? 11:12:39 i should close the parens after stating "(prompt)" as its only parameter? 11:12:45 There's no function name prompt. Why do you call it (prompt)? 11:13:17 it's the variable that i want to put the result of the prompt-for-state function in 11:13:34 Odaym: all parameters are passed by value only in lisp. 11:14:07 You cannot pass a variable to a list function, only a value. Therefore a function cannot modify a variable that would be passed as parameter, because it's not possible. 11:14:22 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-162-226.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:14:51 bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:15:16 There's no variable prompt defined either. 11:16:55 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-7-226.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 11:16:55 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-7-226.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Changing host] 11:16:55 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 11:18:51 -!- argiopeweb [~elliot@adsl-65-166-30.dab.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:18:52 -!- Mekanik [~vov@91.79.155.28] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 11:21:47 -!- am0c [~am0c@58.76.165.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:22:59 i have no idea 11:23:36 Odaym: You should probably sit down and read an introductory book carefully 11:23:53 probably 11:23:54 There are so many things wrong, we cannot "patch" it. You really need to study the language. 11:24:00 but there is no such time on my hands rightn ow 11:24:03 now* 11:24:04 Odaym: do you know how to program in another language already? 11:24:09 yea 11:24:32 but it has nothing to do with usual programming logic 11:24:43 the syntax is lord here it seems 11:24:59 Odaym: on the contrary. The syntax is so simple, that it disappears entirely. 11:25:05 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:25:10 What other programming language do you know? 11:25:33 java, c++, i've used a lot of sh too 11:25:42 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 11:26:06 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-191-71.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 11:26:13 did you learn those in the same manner you are trying to learn lisp now? 11:26:18 no 11:26:40 spent 8 months on java and c++ 11:26:51 but sh i learned very quickly 11:27:17 scripts are called that for a reason, yes 11:27:36 Your begin in C or C++ would be translated as: void begin(){ for(;;){ printf("I am now in Room A."); prompt_for_state(prompt()," Is it dirty or clean? ",prompt?equal("Dirty"):(!y_or_n_p("Run again? [y/n]")?({return;}):void):void);} 11:27:40 See if makes sense. 11:28:10 (copy and paste that code, insert new lines where they should, and indent it). 11:28:33 *cmm* backs away slowly 11:29:11 that is what i'm trying to write, and i would write a much more complex process if the syntax was evident to me 11:29:32 but even the functionality of a function is not evident to me yet 11:29:42 whether it takes another function or a variable 11:29:52 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.197.91] has joined #lisp 11:30:36 Odaym: er, I thought you said you knew C++? 11:30:56 but in C++ i have not heard yet of a function that takes another function as a parameter 11:31:30 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:31:33 there is such a thing in C++? 11:31:56 you can pass function pointers around in think 11:32:00 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 11:32:02 There are callbacks and function pointers, aren't there? 11:32:48 Ragnaroek [~Adium@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 11:32:50 Yes, you can do it in C and C++ 11:32:53 Odaym: the syntax is so simple... expression := atom | '(' {expression} ')'. 11:33:53 Then atoms are either symbols, in which case their value is returned, or other atoms, which are self evaluating: their value is themselves, or 11:34:06 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.197.91] has quit [Client Quit] 11:34:14 when it's a list, the first element is the name of an operator, and the other elements are the arguments for this operator. 11:34:15 pjb: not the best point ever, i could name dozens of simple things that are really hard 11:34:52 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053001191.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 11:35:06 Odaym: You have two classes of operators: macros and special operators which have special rules about their arguments and how and if they are evaluated; and functions, for which the arguments are evaluated from left to right, and the function is called with them. 11:35:44 -!- Aiwass [~Aiwass4@188.26.203.226] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:36:19 Odaym: there is NOTHING else to know about lisp. Well, you need to know a few macros and special operators and their rules, but that's it. 11:36:22 Odaym: notice that this is explained much better in all the introduction texts we gave you. 11:36:36 Aiwass2 [~Aiwass4@188.26.203.226] has joined #lisp 11:36:53 i tried PCL, and it dove right into the Simple Database; that taught me a lot but it was a big jump from the beginning 11:37:22 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-182-139.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 11:38:22 pjb: The standard actually specifies left to right evaluation of arguments? 11:38:28 lambda [lambda@c-76-118-155-244.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:38:33 Odaym: no, you should dove right into the FIRST chapter. 11:38:47 drdo: yes. That's what's so great about CL! 11:38:55 pjb: I disagree 11:38:59 i did, and it was about REPL and "Why lisp" 11:39:04 Scheme is a real PITA for lack of this. 11:39:13 Odaym: and you should read and learn it! 11:39:18 -!- drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 11:39:25 i did 11:39:33 the 4th is "Syntax and Semantics" 11:39:34 Odaym: for example, you would never have written such a nonsensical program if you had used the REPL. 11:40:48 quack [~quack@bl15-152-239.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 11:47:46 pjb pasted "Odyam program." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120592 11:48:03 s/Odyam/Odaym/ 11:48:08 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-182-139.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:48:40 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 11:48:47 Kenjin [~josesanto@89.214.222.5] has joined #lisp 11:49:28 -!- stipet [~user@ua.blixtvik.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:49:41 cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.139.95.133] has joined #lisp 11:51:46 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:55:55 -!- lambda [lambda@c-76-118-155-244.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:56:42 adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 11:57:09 lifeng [~lifeng@bb116-14-191-157.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 11:57:26 thank you pjb i'll keep that as a reference, i've gone back to Ch. 4 in PCL 11:59:44 -!- tr3x [~tr3x@93-138-106-167.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:07:25 tr3x [~tr3x@93-141-72-87.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 12:08:17 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.139.95.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:10:12 rme [~rme@pool-68-238-4-125.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:11:07 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:11:12 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-182-139.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 12:12:40 -!- macrobat_ [~fuzzyglee@h-152-12.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 12:13:58 ehu [~ehuels@109.33.174.204] has joined #lisp 12:15:16 Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:16:31 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 12:20:26 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@89.214.222.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:22:00 -!- adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 12:24:18 longfin [~longfin@175.217.11.78] has joined #lisp 12:25:42 minion: sicp 12:25:42 sicp: The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, a CS textbook using Scheme. Available under the CC-BY-NC Licence at (HTML), (Texinfo), and (PDF). Video lectures are available under the CC-BY-SA licence at 12:27:02 minion: gentle 12:27:02 gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 12:27:29 -!- Rukowen_ [~Rukowen@113.162.163.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:28:50 -!- longfin [~longfin@175.217.11.78] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:29:10 longfin [~longfin@175.217.11.78] has joined #lisp 12:30:12 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:30:41 Rukowen [~Rukowen@113.162.163.76] has joined #lisp 12:31:03 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.33.174.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:31:16 koning_robot [~user@s5597d50c.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #lisp 12:33:14 kushal [~kdas@114.143.161.216] has joined #lisp 12:33:14 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.161.216] has quit [Changing host] 12:33:14 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 12:33:39 -!- kushal is now known as drunkencoder 12:34:17 sellout1 [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:34:56 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-157-151.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:36:01 milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 12:36:29 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:38:24 _akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-123-094.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:41:09 youguy [~youguy@11.Red-193-152-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:57 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-211-13.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:42:02 cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.78] has joined #lisp 12:42:10 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.78] has quit [Changing host] 12:42:10 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 12:43:29 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host201-184-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:43:53 silenius [~silenus@p4FC22F65.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:45:31 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:47:09 -!- longfin [~longfin@175.217.11.78] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:48:49 -!- Odaym [~unix@212.36.209.4] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:49:58 Yuuhi [benni@p5483C508.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:51:28 realitygrill [~realitygr@67-194-66-153.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 12:52:03 -!- youguy [~youguy@11.Red-193-152-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 12:56:01 longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has joined #lisp 13:00:00 -!- sellout1 [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:00:28 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 13:01:52 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has left #lisp 13:03:29 -!- drunkencoder [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:03:37 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-jwxjojglslnzmjnc] has left #lisp 13:03:50 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:04:17 jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 13:06:24 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:10:42 cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.139.95.133] has joined #lisp 13:13:42 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 13:17:19 -!- Rukowen [~Rukowen@113.162.163.76] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:18:02 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.222.19] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:19:12 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp2364.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:19:47 sellout [~Adium@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:20:46 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:20:53 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 13:23:20 Bronsa [~brace@host223-182-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:23:24 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host223-182-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 13:23:44 Bronsa [~brace@host223-182-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:23:53 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 13:23:53 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Excess Flood] 13:24:25 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 13:30:00 Is there a way for a function to receive a struct and return its type without using typecase or some such thing? 13:30:41 you mean like TYPE-OF 13:30:43 ? 13:31:15 oh nice 13:31:16 -!- quack [~quack@bl15-152-239.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:31:17 thanks 13:31:18 xD 13:31:23 *dlowe* is amused that (type-of 1) returns BIT on sbcl 13:31:37 leth [~user@fsf/member/leth] has joined #lisp 13:31:46 returns bit too on ccl 13:32:00 dlowe: what value would be least amusing? 13:32:05 does anyone know if there is a specific channel for antiweb? 13:32:07 Xach: STRING. 13:32:09 Xach: number 13:32:22 bhyde [~bhyde@50.10.201.28] has joined #lisp 13:32:24 nyef: bugs are more amusing than genericity 13:32:41 Okay, how about (EQL 1)? 13:32:42 dlowe: i dunno, i think STRING would be more infuriating than amusing 13:32:51 leth: I haven't heard of such a thing. 13:32:53 but even clisp returns BIT, so I guess it's not that big a deal 13:33:05 clhs type-of 13:33:06 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_tp_of.htm 13:33:06 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@50.10.201.28] has quit [Client Quit] 13:33:15 Oops. 13:33:28 Xach: channel or antiweb? 13:33:39 Just got /rid/ of that window and it's 84.whatever %MEM load. :-/ 13:33:41 leth: I've heard of antiweb, and I haven't heard of a channel for discussing it. 13:34:11 Xach: it's an httpd 13:34:17 Xach: http://hoytech.com/antiweb/ 13:35:17 As far as I know, it has a single user, the author. 13:35:43 hehe, plausible. 13:35:57 well i have it installed actually, so perhaps 2 then. 13:36:33 it is listed on cliki though so it might have some random scattered lusers. 13:36:38 hmm. I wonder if antiweb could be used to pull off Comet. 13:36:50 -!- Posterdati [~tapioca@host127-230-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:36:53 woudshoo [~user@ipleiden.intellimagic.net] has joined #lisp 13:37:08 Xach: well, you did ask what was *least* amusing. 13:37:41 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:38:23 Okay, BIT is mandated because of constraint 1 in the TYPE-OF description. 13:38:58 nyef: how so? 13:39:08 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sbahra] 13:39:12 jweiss [~user@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:39:25 nyef: I'd say allowed rather than mandated 13:39:28 -!- wim` [~user@ipleiden.intellimagic.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:39:51 -!- seejay [~seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:39:54 Specifically, constraint 1b disallows (EQL 1), and constraint 1a says that it must be a recognizable subtype of every built-in type that contains it. 13:39:57 sykopomp: i'm not sure, but i don't think antiweb "likes" to keep connections open for very long. 13:39:58 Gmind [~Nevermind@113.190.186.27] has joined #lisp 13:40:12 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 13:40:20 Thus, it cannot be INTEGER, because it's a FIXNUM, which is a recognizable subtype of INTEGER. 13:40:24 leth: that's too bad. 13:40:28 Posterdati [~tapioca@host127-230-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:40:54 sykopomp: well one could argue that http/html is flawed :) 13:40:55 SymbolicWeb seems to have been abandoned, and I don't know of any other CL-based web servers that are able to pull off many persistent connections. :( 13:41:07 -!- jweiss [~user@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:41:15 what about that one 13:41:17 with the weird name 13:41:21 and amazing performance fingures 13:41:21 leth: you could, but that wouldn't really get you much closer to having a nice responsive interface. 13:41:23 figures* 13:41:27 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 13:41:27 Ralith: tpd2? 13:41:30 yes 13:41:50 sykopomp: a downloadable client would! 13:41:51 Anyway, the logic heads all the way down to (unsigned-byte 1), which is a subtype of FIXNUM and also known as BIT. 13:41:52 -!- keyvan [~keyvan@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:41:57 anyone here lend me a tour of google-ai-contest ? 13:42:04 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:42:14 sykopomp: textmode RPGs are already a high enough barrier to entry that a downloadable client probably wouldn't worsen things perceptibly 13:42:36 Ralith: There are other issues with that approach. Not to mention, I've already tried that one. 13:42:37 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.166.91.169] has joined #lisp 13:42:41 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.166.91.169] has quit [Changing host] 13:42:42 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has joined #lisp 13:42:47 sykopomp: oh? 13:43:06 sykopomp: i've been looking into some web servers i'm not really satisfied with any, i've been thinking about hacking together one of my own, but it seems like such a waste to make yet another httpd.. 13:43:44 the best solution would be a new protocol. if we're talking about "remote" interfaces. 13:45:31 keyvan [~keyvan@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:03 seejay [~seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has joined #lisp 13:46:18 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host223-182-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:46:36 Bronsa [~brace@host223-182-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:47:23 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-064-190-154.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:48:02 antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 13:48:50 -!- jsoftw [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:49:08 leth: what didn't you like with hunchentoot? 13:49:25 ehu [~ehuels@109.33.8.99] has joined #lisp 13:49:38 *sykopomp* is sad that HT can't really handle Comet. 13:49:56 *pjb* doesn't know what Comet is. 13:50:34 pjb: You basically keep a connection alive, and the server is able to 'push' things to the web client when it needs to. 13:50:48 as opposed to polling every second or so to see if the server has anything to send. 13:51:35 pjb: well i want what i call "compiled dynamic pages" 13:52:30 though this is not something that i've ever seen in any httpd, i've been looking into hacking one one that already exists. 13:52:51 I think you could implement that in Hunchentoot quite easily. 13:53:03 yes i've been thinking about it. 13:54:02 leth: i did something like last year...I have a poorly documented package on BitBucket called hh-web-tags that has something like that 13:54:22 hargettp_: interesting, got it online somewhere? 13:54:40 pjb: There are issues with doing it in hunchentoot (issues that were discussed in its mailing list) 13:54:48 http://haphazardhouse.net/projects/hh-web-tags 13:55:32 leth: key parts are 1) custom tags, so that you can write a single tag that generates a bunch of HTML in the final output, and 2) templates that you can write using custom tags, and each template is a template for a single page 13:56:04 pjb: Since hunchentoot occupies a thread for each request, it can't really handle Comet scalably. My impression is that what you really want for something like that is an asynchronous multiplexed web server. 13:56:09 tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:56:15 leth: templates take parameters (so do tags, but I digress), so the concept is essentially that a template just becomes a function you can call to generate HTML (or whatever) 13:56:17 bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-31-28-194.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:12 other big bonus of hh-web-tags is that it generates CSS & Javascript & a few other htings--tags are modular, and the library assembles the page correctly from all the right bits from each tag 13:57:38 :) 13:58:29 BeniaminQ [~quassel@host-195-88-115-34.hypernet.biz.pl] has joined #lisp 13:58:56 doesn't seem to suit me, seem just like any other html generation library to me. 13:59:06 jweiss [~user@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:59:06 lol! 13:59:11 it probably is :) 13:59:14 sykopomp: what about using chunked mode? 13:59:22 sykopomp: or is it not supported? 13:59:41 leth: what are you looking for? 13:59:49 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-025-030.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:00:02 I did some "dynamic" web-page once, by putting a \n line out every few seconds on the open connection 14:00:07 sykopomp: also, aren't server-side events supportable on Hunchentoot with keep-alive connection? 14:00:08 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-195-252.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:00:16 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has quit [Quit: be back later] 14:00:22 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-63-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:00:27 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-63-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:00:29 flip214: with the current APIs there are much better ways to do that 14:00:30 pnkfelix1 [~Adium@c-71-225-63-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:00:31 tty234 [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-awznzhnhfsxwbuwy] has joined #lisp 14:00:43 well, that was 2002 or something like that 14:00:47 ah 14:00:58 so the only async interface was from MS 14:01:06 *hargettp_* is curious about what a compiled dynamic page might be 14:01:09 (or using flash/activex/java) 14:01:24 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has joined #lisp 14:01:47 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:02:30 something that compiles "dynamic pages described in sexpr" into the actuall http. it should be able to seperate between static content which and dynamic content so it could optimize the sending of the pages so to speak. 14:02:48 sykopomp: Are you sure hunchentoot cannot run threadless? IIRC it works on clisp. 14:02:52 leth: actual http? 14:03:00 httpd 14:03:08 leth: personally, I'm currently looking at doing the whole webpage in JS, and having the server as remote API 14:03:38 p_l|backup: thats an interesting aproach, however i hate JS. 14:03:49 leth: that's kind of Lisp in a nutshell, though. I happened to use hh-web-tags for my html generation, but I compiled that + hunchentoot + my pages into a single executable--that's my site. 14:04:23 hargettp_: does it do dynamic content? 14:04:24 leth: I hated it for a long time too, but now that I understand it a little better it's a workable language for me 14:04:58 p_l|backup: yes i just don't want to learn it :) 14:05:08 -!- pnkfelix1 [~Adium@c-71-225-63-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:05:13 orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has joined #lisp 14:05:15 leth: no reason it can't...anything that isn't a "tag" (which is still a s-expr) is just ano ordinary s-expr, so you can mix in othe rLisp code all you want 14:05:19 leth: well, you can use parenscript as well 14:05:39 leth: but, like I said, each template becomes a compiled function 14:05:55 pjb: Based on the mailing list thread that talked about the issue, I don't think it can, yet. 14:06:00 I'm considering using parenscript with lots of macros to reduce the amount of writing, while using some of the modern libraries to abstract away the crazy 14:06:00 hargettp_: how fast will it generate a page? 14:06:05 unless something changed in that timespan -- in which case, that would be very exciting. 14:06:50 leth: it does okay for my needs...not done heavy performance tuning (yet)...although on my site I have a caching layer wrapped around it, so that I don't always regenerate pages unless there are changes 14:06:52 (jquery, underscore.js and sammy.js and some of the new "HTML5" APIs make it a much nicer environment, though not for everything...) 14:07:24 p_l|backup: We use qooxlisp here, and that basically translated to mostly isolating the JS in CL components that correspond to qooxdoo components, which lets us do everything through CL. 14:08:00 sykopomp: ah, at kenny's 14:08:02 the amount of javascript we write is so minimal, just shoving it into a string is good enough. 14:08:04 indeed. 14:08:17 any chance it will get released, or willit be "secret sauce"? :) 14:08:35 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 14:08:46 p_l|backup: qooxlisp is already on github, in a certain form. 14:08:50 oh 14:08:59 hargettp_: is all the static content just a big chunk of memory that could just be streamed or does it have to be generated each time? how do you store persistant data? 14:09:08 but I think it only runs on Allegro. Probably an interesting reference, though. 14:09:34 sykopomp: as for Comet, I was considering using a separate Erlang farm for serving that kind of stuff 14:09:38 https://github.com/kennytilton/qooxlisp 14:10:01 leth: re persistent data...hh-web-tags doesn't, that's not part of it's mission....in my projects I've used CouchDB, MySQL, Amazon S3 and RDs....but again that' snot what hh-web-tags does 14:10:22 p_l|backup: I might just build my application in a completely unscalable way, just using HT, and then find an alternative (or write one), if the scale actually becomes a problem. 14:10:52 leth: re static content....well, if i've done the job right, once a template is compiled, most of the static stuff just sits in memory 14:11:11 all this library does is generate content...where the content comes from and when you decide to generate the content is up to you 14:11:20 hargettp_: but it can handle fetching data from a Database and can still differentiate between static and dynamic content? 14:11:24 muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:11:35 -!- koning_robot [~user@s5597d50c.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:11:39 leth: hh-web-tags does NOT handle that...code outside of it can though 14:11:55 so, it's not what i want then.. 14:12:08 leth: oh, so you want persistence too? kind of a different problem 14:12:48 no i want the httpd to be able to diffrentiate between static and dynamic data, and the dynamic data to be able to be just about anything. 14:12:58 leth: I've written some templates that pull their content right out of CouchDB/MySQL, etc., other templates that get their content from an argument passed in...other code elsewhere pulled it from a database...but again, the library itself knows nothing of persistence 14:13:42 leth: what do you mean "differentiate?" and how would the httpd do that? 14:13:57 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:25 thats why you need to "compile" the "pages" into the httpd so it will know what is dynamic and what is static. 14:14:35 -!- katesmith_ is now known as katesmith 14:14:48 nah, not such a problem on lisp 14:14:56 i agree. 14:15:00 macros does this very well. 14:15:10 that is why you'd want a httpd written in lisp. 14:15:32 mephisto_ [~mephisto@bas1-toronto07-1176315786.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:15:40 however none of the solutions i've looked on will actually do this. 14:15:46 leth: do WHAT? 14:15:51 leth: :) 14:16:34 flush the static parts directly from memory and only generate the dynamic parts of the pages. 14:16:59 leth: any Lisp application written on an HTTPD also written in Lisp can do that 14:17:16 leth: by "flush" I presume you mean write out the static content to the outgoing socket from it's holding location in memory? 14:17:25 yes 14:17:37 leth: any Lisp application written on an HTTPD also written in Lisp can do that 14:18:07 you mean could do that. 14:18:38 leth: um, probably does...it's rather trivial 14:19:11 well, IIRC the main advantage of TPD2 is that constant strings are compiled into a byte-array, so that no translation from lisp-characters is necessary anymore 14:19:12 as far as i have understood no solution will actually generate pages this way. 14:19:22 leth: then you are mistaken :) 14:20:17 flip214: yes, that is very handy i've looked on TPD2, it's very near to what i want. 14:21:20 tsuru [~charlie@adsl-87-47-213.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:48 *sykopomp* wonders how stable and scalable tpd2 is. 14:22:25 vsedach has been working on it/a fork/something similar. 14:23:05 sykopomp: i've been thinking about doing some tests and comparing the performance of antiweb and tpd2. 14:23:12 -!- greaver [~jo@212.88.117.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:23:40 I care less about performance, and more about Comet-capability and convenience of development. 14:23:43 well, you could do that with a set of macros and compiler macros that would form a special DSL which would create static strings with thunks for dynamic parts 14:23:46 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 14:23:47 HT is pretty damn convenient for what I'm doing. 14:23:57 i've also been thinking about stealing parts of the socket code from hydra and write a library that i inturn could use from lisp. 14:24:05 lanthan [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:24:12 p_l|backup: that is the idea. 14:24:53 sykopomp: tpd2 is very fast. see http://john.freml.in/teepeedee2-c10k for more scaling you'll need multiple servers, I think. 14:25:49 flip214: I'm aware of its -speed-. The next concern is features and stability. 14:26:45 slash_ [~unknown@pD955C9D9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:49 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:28:05 because antiweb is also basicly a multithreaded asynchronous socket server i've been looking into it aswell. 14:30:13 leth: asynchronous is nice...one of things hunchentoot lacks atm 14:30:27 although always HT gets the job done quite nicely 14:30:35 *otherwise HT gets the job done nice 14:30:39 -ly 14:30:47 also the generic idea behind how antiweb treats pages is very hand, albeit it doesn't currently support dynamic content it could probably be rather easily fixed. 14:31:27 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-31-28-194.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 14:31:35 hargettp_: i'm not sure ht scales that well in comparison with most asyncronous socket servers. 14:32:16 leth: oh yeah, wouldn't expect it to 14:32:29 well, i do want that. why wouldn't i? 14:32:34 :) 14:33:06 easyE [MmipgufWlf@panix2.panix.com] has joined #lisp 14:33:07 myu2 [~myu2@v078198.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 14:33:39 The Lisp world is missing a performant, asynchronous HTTPD upon which to build dynamic applications 14:33:49 and if it's out there, it's not well known 14:34:23 ? 14:34:28 You could elide "Lisp" from your pronouncement and it would still be true 14:34:34 lol 14:35:19 I think I just used up my pronouncement quota for the day :) 14:35:35 *sykopomp* keeps reading something about a Mongrel2 thing. 14:36:07 Heck. I'd be happy with a web server that can handle 1k comet clients without imploding. :) 14:37:01 sykopomp: does 'comet client' mean 'open connection'? 14:37:25 sykopomp: i'm not quites sure what the advatage of comet is, if you have keep alive sockets, but perhaps i've misunderstood what comet is.. care to explain what i'm missing? 14:38:37 Ralith: long-lived open connections, yes. 14:38:49 leth: responsiveness. You can push things to clients as soon as they happen. 14:39:31 The alternative seems to be to have AJAX polling every second, which means you'll have all those clients barraging your web server with useless http requests, and they -still- won't get a response as fast as Comet can send them over. 14:39:49 sykopomp: oh, i see. 14:39:52 I think they also call it "AJAX Push" and "Reverse AJAX" 14:39:53 -!- silenius [~silenus@p4FC22F65.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:40:25 sykopomp: be aware that there's a kernel-level hard limit on the number of open file descriptors, and it's not all that high. 14:40:31 less than a thousand normally, iirc 14:40:39 i guess ajax requests, which just takes whatever time it takes to respond to respond doesn't count as comet or would it? 14:40:53 Ralith: iirc, that's configurable. Isn't that a ulimit thing? 14:40:55 Ralith: Configurable at compile time or via sysctl? 14:41:00 Ralith: that can pe configured. 14:41:01 sykopomp: no. 14:41:13 nyef: kernel compiletime, but there's a cost to increasing it. 14:41:17 sykopomp: you can indeed try mongrel2 14:41:26 works pretty nicely for me 14:41:29 you can't simply set it to a million and be done with it. 14:41:31 galdor: with Lisp? 14:41:36 yep 14:41:37 if it was that easy they'd default to that. 14:41:38 ... Always is. Can't you just add a FILES= or HANDLES= line to config.sys and reboot? 14:41:44 I wrote a common lisp handler (m2cl on github) 14:41:48 galdor: do you have example code for a simple application somewhere? 14:41:55 http://github.com/galdor/m2cl 14:42:00 there's a small chat example 14:42:07 and I use it to write a browser game 14:42:38 nyef: config.whatnow 14:43:23 ... that'd actually be an amusing name for a system configuration file... 14:44:07 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:44:44 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:45:16 haha 14:45:20 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:45:29 I reminded of an old slashdot poll 14:45:41 Mococa [~Mococa@189.59.215.244] has joined #lisp 14:45:51 asking something along the lines of "what's your current project" 14:45:58 the option I selected was 14:46:16 "Xorg.conf.new.secondtry.pleaseworkthistime" 14:46:37 :( 14:46:40 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:47:00 -!- sellout [~Adium@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:47:01 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 14:48:17 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Client Quit] 14:49:18 sykopomp: The only comet stuff I know of besides TPD2 is SymbolicWeb/SW-HTTP. 14:50:03 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.59.215.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:50:35 -!- Hundenn [~Hunden@e180099092.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:56:07 morning 14:58:00 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:58:49 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 14:59:12 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Client Quit] 14:59:16 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 14:59:32 silenius [~silenus@p4FC22F65.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:32 gadek [~konrad@wifi-wpa.agh.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 15:02:30 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host223-182-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:03:00 -!- Davsebamse [~das@94.127.50.104] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:05:48 tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has joined #lisp 15:06:02 Mococa [~Mococa@189.59.215.244] has joined #lisp 15:11:21 -!- aerique [310225@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:12:02 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-nkawwhnmwvvyqaup] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:12:20 -!- mephisto_ [~mephisto@bas1-toronto07-1176315786.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:15:22 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-247-194.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 15:17:08 -!- xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:21:58 milanj [~milanj_@109-92-126-186.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 15:22:46 benny` [~benny@i577A2DA7.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:23:29 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:51 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@67-194-66-153.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 15:26:21 tmh [635b0bae@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 15:26:46 pmurias [~pawel@89-72-232-106.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 15:28:33 if i want to write something that would allow convienient browsing of an ast in sexpression form what should i use? or does something like that exist? 15:28:36 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.59.215.244] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:28:41 realitygrill [~realitygr@67-194-66-153.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 15:28:54 the ast has file position information so it would be nice to be able to use that 15:29:21 tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.66.60] has joined #lisp 15:29:26 Greetings lispers. 15:29:31 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.63.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:29:39 -!- slash_ [~unknown@pD955C9D9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:29:52 mephisto_ [~mephisto@bas1-toronto07-1176315786.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:30:50 -!- orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:31:17 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.80.77] has joined #lisp 15:31:26 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@67-194-66-153.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 15:33:12 -!- gadek [~konrad@wifi-wpa.agh.edu.pl] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 15:35:31 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-sowynyinbytornav] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:36:29 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:38:03 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has joined #lisp 15:40:25 mgindulescu [~mircea@nat/nokia/x-xctvxvvpeuefsrgz] has joined #lisp 15:41:15 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-025-030.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:41:44 -!- cnl [~cnl@78.31.74.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:43:42 pmurias: I'm not sure I understand what you mean. What about pprint the sexp and "browsing" it in an emacs buffer? 15:44:42 superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.148] has joined #lisp 15:47:57 -!- mgindulescu [~mircea@nat/nokia/x-xctvxvvpeuefsrgz] has left #lisp 15:48:26 pjb: pretty printing the sexpression and browsing it in an editor window is what i do currently 15:49:41 how about saving as xml, and browsing via eg. firefox or whatever? allows to open/close branches, AFAIK 15:49:58 sexpression ? 15:49:59 :O 15:50:19 pmurias: Have a look at: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/small-cl-pgms/sedit/ ; this might give some ideas about a "s-exp browser". 15:50:37 pmurias: you could implement such a structure editor, or just a structure inspector in emacs too, if that helps. 15:52:12 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:16 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:53:22 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 15:54:08 cheezus [~Adium@76-10-163-32.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 15:54:08 -!- benny` is now known as benny 15:54:25 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-064-182-072.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:23 pjb: something like that seems usefull 15:56:39 Mococa [~Mococa@189.59.215.244] has joined #lisp 15:56:44 -!- BeniaminQ [~quassel@host-195-88-115-34.hypernet.biz.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:58:59 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:59:50 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 16:02:36 Bronsa [~brace@host223-182-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:04:24 Hunden [~Hunden@141.62.34.10] has joined #lisp 16:04:28 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 16:05:06 francogrex [c14be4fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.75.228.252] has joined #lisp 16:05:07 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.59.215.244] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:06:19 Hi, I am having triouble with this, it's in CL but the question is more about algorithmic thinking: http://paste.lisp.org/display/120595 16:06:44 i would like to incorporate a cumulative sum there 16:07:57 then add a sum clause. 16:08:19 Since you both collect and sum, you might have to introduce accumulator variables with an into keyword. 16:08:37 (and add a finally clause indicating how you return the values of these variables). 16:09:39 Now, reading your before/after specification, I don't see what's your problem. 16:10:40 pjb: something like sum (cadr (car j)) into... 16:12:17 -!- astoon [~astoon@178-16-146-17.obit.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:12:37 incompatible kinds of LOOP value accumulation specified for collecting as the value of the LOOP: LIST and SB-LOOP::SUM ... 16:13:02 but I get the jist... needs some tweaking 16:13:07 (cadr (car j)) is (caadr j) 16:13:18 eh, the other way around 16:13:23 (cadar j) 16:13:33 http://paste.lisp.org/display/120595#1 16:14:31 francogrex: yes, I meant (loop ... collect ... into list-result sum ... into number-result), but that wasn't what was asked. 16:14:33 pjb: wow! that was fast! impressed but expected 16:15:08 You may want to add a reverse in the format. 16:15:11 daniel_ [~daniel@p5B327254.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:02 ah, well that's not really neccesary, the order I mean 16:16:02 -!- daniel__1 [~daniel@p5082B615.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:17:06 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:18:35 -!- Aiwass2 [~Aiwass4@188.26.203.226] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:19:07 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-5-180.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:27:55 -!- cheezus [~Adium@76-10-163-32.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:28:06 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host223-182-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:28:39 Bronsa [~brace@host223-182-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] 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Spion__ [~spion@77.29.254.208] has joined #lisp 17:24:02 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:25:59 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:26:19 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:26:52 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-247-194.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 17:29:11 -!- tc [~travis@rrcs-67-78-243-170.se.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:30:29 ray24 [~ray24@adsl-70-231-247-87.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:31 tc_ [~travis@rrcs-67-78-243-170.se.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:30:33 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 17:30:58 -!- tc_ is now known as tc 17:36:00 cnl [~cnl@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 17:37:39 mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has joined #lisp 17:38:04 so I have a bunch of different kinds of arrays, and types defined which describe them. I've got some functions I want to call on them, but I can't specialize on type, only class, and I can't make an array "be" a user-defined class. so... I've been using typecase inside a function. how about using gf's with :or method combination that returns nil if that particular type of array isn't handled... 17:38:05 ...by the method? 17:38:13 *slyrus* thinks out loud 17:38:43 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:40:10 -!- Gmind [~Nevermind@113.190.186.27] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:40:48 sellout [~Adium@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:02 Ragnaroek [~Adium@p5B0C774C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:42:51 still wondering at what point asdf:find-system will find a system 17:42:56 -!- gz [~gz@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 17:42:57 Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 17:43:23 When you call it. 17:43:39 whether the system is loaded or not? 17:44:06 asdf:find-system loads systems if needed. 17:44:14 ouch.. 17:44:30 well, then that solves that :) 17:44:32 find-system loads system /definitions/ 17:44:40 Yes. 17:44:58 just to make sure nobody gets the wrong message here (: 17:45:01 An important distinction to make. 17:45:26 So this system is loaded or just the .asd? 17:46:00 mon_key: the .asd file is located and loaded, and that may define one or more systems, and the one matching the argument passed to find-system is returned. 17:46:23 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:46:25 Xach: that helped clarify it for me. thanks! 17:46:54 Basically i have a top-level loadtime form that _was_ doing this: 17:46:58 (asdf:system-source-directory (asdf:find-system :FOO-test)) 17:47:33 that's unnecessary 17:47:39 system-source-directory will do a find-system if needed. 17:47:48 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has joined #lisp 17:48:18 I just want its path, but that :FOO-TEST is shared with :FOO 17:48:40 And shouldn't be loaded at that time. 17:49:16 slyrus: what would the signature of those methods be ? 17:49:17 the system foo-test is defined in foo.asd? 17:50:12 fe[nl]ix: I would need multiple methods with an array arg to fire 17:50:15 No, the form is inside a file loadtime-bind.lisp which is loaded inside and asdf:perform :after asdf:load-op of :FOO 17:50:37 -!- qebab [~robb@jaguar.stud.ntnu.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:50:49 realitygrill [~realitygr@67-194-66-153.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 17:50:50 Sounds complicated. 17:51:00 qebab [~robb@jaguar.stud.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 17:51:01 Probably overly so. 17:52:27 awesome-o [~anonymous@208.74.177.139.static.etheric.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:29 fe[nl]ix: hrm... that won't work, will it? 17:52:47 -!- Hunden [~Hunden@141.62.34.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:52:50 slyrus: nope 17:53:32 -!- awesome-o is now known as hashrocket 17:55:10 jajcloz [~jaj@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:51 mon_key pasted "Finding/verifying a system path conditionally at loadtime" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120600 17:58:02 -!- meandi [~meandi@dyndsl-178-142-060-197.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:59:55 mon_key: What are you trying to do? 18:00:06 fe[nl]ix pasted "array dispatch" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120601 18:00:09 -!- naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 18:00:29 naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has joined #lisp 18:00:36 The intention is that foo-test be movalbe to outside foo's dir and the loadtime binding of the special variables not be affected. 18:00:42 slyrus: ^^ 18:01:02 -!- astoon [~astoon@178-16-146-17.obit.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:01:18 mon_key: Why? 18:01:49 What are the special variables for? 18:02:55 They are objects which store pathnames and associated metadata that objects may share and/or need access to 18:03:13 that "foo objects may..." 18:03:24 mon_key: Are you familiar with asdf:system-relative-pathname? 18:03:34 I will be soon :) 18:05:53 I bumped up against similar yesterday and punted... What is a component and how do i access them? 18:06:13 -!- bjobae [4db05548@gateway/web/freenode/ip.77.176.85.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:06:26 No idea. 18:06:41 When I want to access things relative to the system file, I use asdf:system-relative-pathname. 18:07:01 e.g. (defvar *base* (asdf:system-relative-pathname 'my-project "data/") 18:07:03 ) 18:07:27 I used to use *load-truename*/*compile-file-truename*, but asdf2 broke that. 18:08:32 -!- silenius [~silenus@p4FC22F65.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:09:38 Thats the variable i was looking for :) *LOAD-TRUENAME*... I've been using LOAD-TIME-VALUE with *DEFAULT-PATHNAME-DEFAULTS* which is kludgy 18:10:43 It's handy except when it's not. 18:11:09 With asdf2's default fasl segregation, *load-truename* is often ~/.cache/common-lisp/foo/bar/baz/quux.fasl or similar. 18:11:23 Xach: thanks for the usage example for asd:system-relative-pathname It wasn't clear what the NAME argument was withou looking ath the "Misc. additional functionality" section of the asdf texinfo manual 18:12:12 Xach: OK. That is good w/r/t asdf2 18:12:26 er good to know rather 18:12:54 fe[nl]ix: the problem is that it's more than just the array-element-type, it's the dimensions 18:13:09 and the deftypes capture all that 18:14:35 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-50-127-150.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:58 tfb [~tfb@92.41.241.78.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:15:56 Xach: FWIW and FTR the S-R-P's &key TYPE is as per the defsystem grammar for component-type e.g. one of 18:15:58 :system | :module | :file | :static-file | other-component-type 18:18:24 *Xach* has never used or investigated that argument 18:20:12 (asdf:system-relative-pathname 'foo-test "tests" :type "lisp") 18:21:10 slyrus: with regular generic functions, if you have N methods, they all have to have a different signatures 18:21:19 slyrus: try pcos's filtered-functions 18:22:32 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-49-13-243.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:22:47 But that usage isn't exactly helpful b/c it returns "tests.lisp" outside of its truename 18:23:03 This does work but it isn't clear that its portable: 18:23:12 (asdf:system-relative-pathname 'foo-test "foo-tests/tests" :type "lisp") 18:24:58 mon_key: Why use :type at all? I'd just do "foo-tests/tests.lisp". 18:27:27 Xach: I prob. will as well :) This said, at this point I'm trying to explort the utility (if any) of the :type key. Maybe its useful for highly nested path trees? 18:27:56 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:27:59 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.42] has joined #lisp 18:28:19 Anyone know anything about the HP PA-RISC architecture and why the stack grows upwards? 18:28:31 adobriyan [~ad@vulture-nat-36.telecom.by] has joined #lisp 18:28:49 So for example i actually have "foo-tests/tests" as directory and "foo-tests/test.lisp" as file... 18:29:40 gigamonkey: ask duane? (-; 18:29:43 tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has joined #lisp 18:30:32 mon_key: is there a deep reason to use (elt list 0) instead of (first list)? 18:31:39 other than (first #(a b c)) signalling no. 18:31:44 -!- relcomp [~chatzilla@nat.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Iceape 2.0.11/20110302185706]] 18:32:10 antifuchs: yeah. 18:32:56 -!- mephisto_ [~mephisto@bas1-toronto07-1176315786.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:33:13 -!- McMAGIC-- [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:34:18 I'm pretty sure there was a pa-risc port, so he would know everything about it (and I mean /everything/) (: 18:34:36 Xach: actually that is not a valid reason so long as mon:last-elt is in play because it only eats lists 18:35:06 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:35:41 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:35:50 McMAGIC-- [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--] has joined #lisp 18:37:31 -!- Mekanik [~vov@91.79.136.39] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 18:37:58 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:38:04 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has joined #lisp 18:39:33 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:42:05 ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 18:48:17 longshot [~longshot@180.184.9.158] has joined #lisp 18:48:47 -!- HG` [~HG@dslb-188-109-163-047.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:49:25 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:50:39 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@67-194-66-153.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 18:52:24 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.8.159.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:52:47 gozek [~quassel@56.165.216.87.static.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:53:12 gz` [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 18:58:45 -!- pmurias [~pawel@89-72-232-106.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:01:36 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:02:08 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:02:39 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:03:27 Xach rgrep'ing my local ql's software tree doesn't turn up any uses of the system-relative-pathname with the :type key. Albeit there are many missing dists. It would be interesting to learn if any ql projet is using this keyword. My impression is that in so much as system-relative-pathname is a fairly recent addition to asdf it should be deprecated/removed 19:05:23 mon_key: Why should it be deprecated or removed? 19:05:33 The argument, or the function? 19:05:46 The argument. 19:05:50 mon_key: uh, i use it 19:06:14 mon_key: I think it would be better to find out what it's used for. I don't know what it's for, and never use it, but I assume there is some purpose for it that hopefully I don't have to care about until I need it. 19:06:31 isn't it for a particular type of file (e.g., directory vs. file)? 19:06:35 hargettp: well there you have it. I'd like to know how to better use this arg please if you can I would love to see some usage examples 19:06:57 hargettp_: I can't get it to work sanely for a directory 19:07:13 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:08:23 the asdf-devel list is also quite helpful. 19:09:14 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-195-252.wbs.co.za] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:10:06 Yes, I should ask there. 19:11:35 realitygrill [~realitygr@67-194-66-153.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 19:12:44 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@67-194-66-153.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 19:14:25 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.139.95.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:15:25 -!- longshot [~longshot@180.184.9.158] has quit [Quit: longshot] 19:16:00 gigamonkey: Perhaps the stack grows upwards because it has to grow in some direction, and it's only CISC machines that grow it downwards? 19:17:46 MoALTz [~no@92.8.232.86] has joined #lisp 19:20:07 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:20 Evious [~n_a@s64-180-62-209.bc.hsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:29 brodo [~brodo@p5B025B7B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:23:12 mephisto_ [~mephisto@bas1-toronto07-1176315786.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:23:13 MoALTz_ [~no@92.8.232.86] has joined #lisp 19:23:51 -!- mephisto_ [~mephisto@bas1-toronto07-1176315786.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:24:38 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:25:34 nyef: is that pure speculation or a slightly snarky answer ;-) 19:25:50 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-53-100.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:26:10 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.8.232.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:26:41 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@124-168-76-146.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 19:27:28 leth: I know exactly what you were talking about with "compiled dynamic html" earlier, I've been using that approach for years. Here's my library for it, but unfortunately it's in unusable form right now and is awaiting a huge refactoring and proper release with documentation: https://github.com/Hexstream/hextml 19:27:49 FWIW, PPC seeem to use a downward stack so it's not just CISC machines. 19:27:57 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:28:03 gigamonkey: PPC is arguly not that RISC. 19:28:11 *arguably 19:28:45 pkhuong: yeah, I figured someone might argue that. 19:29:04 It goes far beyond the macro approach (which there's a version of in output.lisp), by making a representation of HTML as lisp objects, that I use a macro to conveniently build a representation of, that I then optimize and compile to closures... So yeah, that compiled dynamic html approach has already been done ;) 19:29:13 mheld_ [~mheld@c-75-69-89-109.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:06 mon_key: I lied :) 19:30:18 A quick check of the package I was thinking of does NOT use the :type arm 19:30:45 The :type arg is used in a make-pathname call nearby...not on system-relative 19:31:35 wanderingelf [4817e03d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.23.224.61] has joined #lisp 19:32:27 I've never encountered a RISC processor with less instructions than a 680X0 CISC processor. 19:34:00 gabnet [~gabnet@86.67.23.234] has joined #lisp 19:34:00 longshot [~longshot@180.184.9.158] has joined #lisp 19:34:28 pjb: of course, if you consider all addressing modes to be the same instruction, you don't really count the RISC way. 19:34:29 So I must infer that Reduced doesn't refers to the cardinal of the Instruction Set. 19:35:09 pkhuong: well, even including the addressing modes, it's not so clear cut. Perhaps I counted them on PPC, I don't recall. 19:36:57 realitygrill [~realitygr@67-194-66-153.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 19:37:29 spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-13-34.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:39:20 killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 19:39:42 mephisto_ [~mephisto@bas1-toronto07-1176315786.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:40:25 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@67-194-66-153.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 19:40:53 -!- mephisto_ [~mephisto@bas1-toronto07-1176315786.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:41:58 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 19:42:22 mephisto_ [~mephisto@bas1-toronto07-1176315786.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:43:20 -!- Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:44:14 ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 19:44:33 astoon [~astoon@178-16-146-17.obit.ru] has joined #lisp 19:45:21 hargettp_: thanks for checking :) 19:45:34 mon_key:ofc! yw :) 19:45:35 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:57 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.66.60] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 19:45:58 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:46:15 jweiss_ [~user@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:48:13 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:48:52 muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:49 -!- seejay [~seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:50:50 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-140-178.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:52:09 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-53-100.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:52:46 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-211-13.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:53:11 jsoftw [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 19:54:42 -!- dmytrish [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 19:54:59 dmytrish [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:17 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 19:57:29 -!- seangrove [~user@c-98-234-242-172.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:57:59 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-140-178.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:58:10 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host223-182-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:59:57 -!- mephisto_ [~mephisto@bas1-toronto07-1176315786.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:00:14 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-140-178.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:00:26 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-53-100.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:01:18 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 20:01:43 -!- cheezus [~Adium@76-10-163-32.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:01:59 -!- jsoftw [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:02:23 Bronsa [~brace@host223-182-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:04:41 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-123.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:06:37 dalkvist [~cairdazar@h-2-115.A322.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 20:06:49 -!- astoon [~astoon@178-16-146-17.obit.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:08:05 -!- dalkvist [~cairdazar@h-2-115.A322.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Client Quit] 20:08:44 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:09:14 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 20:10:25 woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 20:11:12 tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:11 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.41.241.78.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:13:47 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:16:54 Landr [~vser@78-22-153-17.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 20:19:25 -!- oconnore [~eric@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:20:19 realitygrill [~realitygr@67-194-66-153.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 20:24:58 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A76F6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:25:30 *Xach* finds http://common-lisp.info/ is not quite what he hoped 20:26:12 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:26:33 katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:26:34 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 20:26:34 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 20:26:44 -!- Spion__ [~spion@77.29.254.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:27:01 Spion__ [~spion@77.29.253.26] has joined #lisp 20:28:14 s0ber_ [~s0ber@111-240-164-94.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:32 Xach: font-family: Comic Sans MS, Tekton, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-Serif; 20:30:10 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-171-211.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:30:19 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 20:32:17 good to cover the bases. 20:32:48 ... "all your base"? 20:33:26 someone st them the bomb, and they launched all the Zig? ^_- 20:34:13 youguy [~youguy@59.pool85-56-15.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 20:35:16 Are belong to us... 20:38:48 dmiles_akf [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:20 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:39:42 francogrex [~user@109.130.122.236] has joined #lisp 20:40:58 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host223-182-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:41:17 yeah, that sure was funny eleven years ago 20:41:46 -!- lonstein_ is now known as lonstein 20:42:53 it'll be hip again in a decade or so 20:43:17 -!- gonzojive1 [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 20:44:11 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:45:16 -!- sellout [~Adium@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:45:32 dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 20:47:53 -!- youguy [~youguy@59.pool85-56-15.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 20:50:32 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 20:50:35
I'm trying to do something *really* stupid and I can't figure out how to do it!: I'd like to evaluate a formula stored in a string (like "(abs (aref actor-position i) (aref actor-position j))" where i and j and the actor-position array are defined in the current lexical environment. Any ideas? 20:52:26
You see, I'm rewriting a code written in Basic in CL and the CL version is at least 3 orders of magnitude faster than the Basic version and the Basic version does the equivalent of the above (eeew!): we're wondering how much it would slow down my Lisp code. :) 20:53:24 dl: there's a lisp implemented in your Basic code? 20:53:50 dl: it is not possible to access the current lexical environment 20:53:57
no ;) The basic code looks like: dist=val(eval$(dist$)) 20:54:20
and dist$="position(j)-position(i)" is defined earlier 20:54:32
crud! 20:54:40 dl: you can build some table data structure that maps SPECIFIC symbols to their variable values but you can't just grab the whole environment, in standard CL. 20:55:02
I'm using SBCL if that helps me cheat :) 20:55:45 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 20:55:55 nope 20:56:03
I guess my problem really is how to get the arrays to be "seen" when I eval a given string (I can replace I and J in the string using FORMAT) 20:56:27 like this: 20:56:31 maybe you shouldn't eval a string? 20:56:36 I mean, crazy talk, I know 20:56:42
what?!!! 20:56:42 dl: (funcall (eval '(lambda (ar1 ar2) ... )) ar1 ar2) 20:57:19 think of this as like a let that crosses the eval barrier: (funcall (lambda (var1 var2) ...) val1 val2) is the eval-less form 20:57:43
I'm trying to see how *damn slow* I can make my CL code dlowe (I mean, 5000X speed-up from the Basic code is just *too much*: the guy who wrote it can no longer take a lunch break while doing his runs! ;) 20:58:05 the key is that you have your form-with-free-variables and wrap (lambda ,list-of-vars ,form) around it, and eval that, then call it with the corresponding list-of-values 20:58:22
kpreid, is ar1 and ar2 and array? 20:59:08 -!- Ragnaroek [~Adium@p5B0C774C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:59:09 alama [~alama@a79-169-94-144.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 20:59:36
oh, I see :) 20:59:37 dl: it's whatever lexical vars you want to have bound for the eval 20:59:50
I *think* that will do the trick for me! Thanks! :) 20:59:56 Ragnaroek [~Adium@p5B0C774C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:15
I'll just add a read-from-string in there and viola! :) 21:00:24
(I know, this is really perverse :) 21:00:52 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 21:01:19
Seriously, we want to get an idea of if the massive speed difference could possibly be due to the (silly) evals of string in his Basic code 21:01:53 What difference does that make? 21:02:19 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:04:20 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:04:25 <_3b> do the strings change, or are they there when teh code is compiled? 21:04:27 sveral ordrs in magnitude *and* array processing? I suspect it would show on anything bigger than small handwritten test arrays 21:04:56
rtoym: we're just so cureous here at my work! The Boss Man said that we needed to re-write this code in Fortran and I said I bet I can get a CL version working in a couple of days that will be sufficient... 21:05:09 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@67-194-66-153.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 21:05:31
I'd be a tad surprised if the Fortran (if ever written) will beat my CL code by more than an order of magnitude... :) 21:05:34 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:05:38 Xach: is that thing from KMP something new? 21:05:53 dl: Ok. Did you use a Basic compiler too? 21:05:56
_3b: the strings are constant 21:05:59 Ah, never mind Copyright 2005 21:06:40
rtoym: yes, he's using LibertyBasic and I've only got an .exe of his code and the source (no access to a compiler myself) 21:07:04 *_3b* wonders if parsing them at READ time like normal source would be cheating :p 21:07:16 <_3b> (or compile time) 21:07:23
yes! 21:07:32 *rtoym* thinks the conclusion is that the basic compiler sucks. 21:07:42 -!- lanthan [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:08:15
rtoym: no, not necessarily: the code is *really really really* bad! The guy who wrote it is a political scientist and I think this could be his very first program 21:08:50 <_3b> though i guess if you can't do that, you could still memoize them and get most of the benefit if they get called often 21:08:53
I will give him props that his decision made it extremely simple to print out the formula's used in the calculation as a part of the output file ;P 21:09:23 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has left #lisp 21:09:41 <_3b> or maybe a 1 element cache at each eval-a-string site 21:09:42
_3b: basically the strings are all a bunch of simple math done on various arrays 21:10:34 <_3b> i think my point is more or less that lisp has lots of ways to work around 'stupid code' so if you really want a fair comparison, it would be better to fix the basic 21:10:36 milkpost [~milkpost@173-23-137-233.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 21:10:52
(loop for i from 0 to 100 do (loop for j from 0 to 100 do (* (aref array i j) someConstant))) 21:11:08 "Bad" can mean badly written or badly designed. And if you went and removed the badly implemented part, it's hardly fair. 21:11:15 <_3b> if you just want a delay loop, use sleep :p 21:11:16
lol! too true 3b! 21:11:39 <_3b> (and if you want to modify an array, save the results somewhere :) 21:11:46 bgs101 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:11:53
yeah, I guess I'm trying to badly re-implement the CL code that seems to work quite well 21:12:01 "Oh, hey, this loop has no side-effects, let's eliminate it!" 21:12:07
... it is an excercise in perversity 21:12:24 jabirali [~jabirali@monty.pvv.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 21:12:31 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:12:39 <_3b> dl: no, perversity would be actually implementing the optimizations i've been suggesting for the actively de-optimized code :) 21:12:48 -!- bgs101 is now known as bgs100 21:13:08 dl: I'm confused. So you've got working versions in both Basic and CL but the CL is too fast so you're trying to see what kind of stupidity would be required to make it as slow as the Basic version? 21:13:24
yes! 21:13:34 O_o 21:13:36
err... not quite 21:14:02 So do a reverse Greenspun. Implement a Basic interpreter in CL. Hopefully that'll slow things down enough. ;-) 21:14:05
I'm trying to do a "translation" of the basic code instead of a reimplementation 21:14:56 Trying to do or have already done? 21:15:14 sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:23 And is the hope that even the naively translated code, in CL, is much faster than the original? 21:15:39 Thus demonstrating that it's not just your better design that makes the Lisp version so fast? 21:16:03
rtoym: I've done a reimplementation. I'm trying to do a translation of one small section so I can get some timing results and see. 21:16:14 Tabmow [tabmow@freenode/staff/tabmow] has joined #lisp 21:16:27
gigamonkey: yes, thats about right :) 21:16:36 gigamonkey: I was asked at interview once to "fix" a code in 2 threads, so it'd deadlock 21:16:46
lol :) 21:17:00 I have to say that if I were paying for this work, I'd say stop it. There are better things to do. :-) 21:17:40
lol! This is one of the pleasures of academia (at times we can screw around for the sake of learning something). 21:17:55 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:18:05 -!- Landr [~vser@78-22-153-17.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:18:07 academia? i thought this was a government gig 21:18:35 "make it faster, but slower" 21:18:36
besides, if you're the scientist i'm hoping to hand the CL code off to, you just got your work done 1000 X faster... so shut up! ;) 21:18:41 -!- Tabmow [tabmow@freenode/staff/tabmow] has quit [Client Quit] 21:18:43
lol! 21:19:01 What will you learn from this? 21:19:13 rtoym: that he was right in the first place. ;-) 21:19:17
I guess, its the cost of EVAL :) 21:19:48
and, that I/we were right that Lisp is Good (TM) 21:20:19 tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 21:20:28
... my co-worker gave up on his Python reimplementation after he saw my CL numbers :) 21:23:37 peter norvig would be pissed 21:25:26 ace4016 [~ace4016@adsl-32-14-244.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:51 -!- Atomsk [ace4016@adsl-32-14-244.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:27:13 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 21:27:13 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 21:27:13 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 21:27:26
hmm... my *guess* is that the *brain-damaged* CL version will be ~10X faster than the original Basic (from some very simple tests): so, CL beats Basic! ;) 21:28:08 oconnore [~eric@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:50 dl: if you want a basic lisp try scheme 21:29:33 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:03 tenawa [~user@adsl-75-53-123-94.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:03 -!- dmiles_akf [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:31:26 Hexstream: around? 21:31:48 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:52 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:32:27 -!- oconnore [~eric@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:33:29 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:33 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:33:35 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.122.236] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:34:28 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:31 oconnore [~eric@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:35:46 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 21:35:46 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 21:35:46 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 21:40:09 enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-76-245-62-252.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:17 jsoftw [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 21:42:07 -!- spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-13-34.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: .] 21:42:24 Sereal [~sereal_J@fctnnbsc30w-198164211116.dhcp-dynamic.FibreOp.nb.bellaliant.net] has joined #lisp 21:42:38 seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:33 what is lisp good at? (never done any lisp programming, just curious at what it's strengths are) 21:44:05 mephistophocles [~mephistop@ec2-50-17-225-30.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 21:44:21 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:44:39 Ragnaroek1 [~Adium@p5B0C774C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:43 -!- Ragnaroek [~Adium@p5B0C774C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:45:20 Sereal: Hard problems. 21:46:10 thats a little ambiguous 21:47:12 <_3b> Sereal: lisp is good at being a programming language :p 21:47:21 and it's faster than Basic 21:47:29 as we learned today 21:48:09 like C is good for things that need to run fast. Why would I use lisp over C? 21:48:14 Sereal: it lets you iterate a solution to a problem really quickly. 21:48:16 <_3b> particularly suited to complicated/poorly defined tasks 21:48:21 that is, it accelerates your productivity as a programmer 21:48:31 Sereal: your question may be ambiguous too. 21:48:44 Sereal: what aspects do you want to be considered. 21:48:46 ? 21:48:57 -!- mephistophocles [~mephistop@ec2-50-17-225-30.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:49:00 <_3b> lisp can be good for thingsthat need to run fast also 21:49:09 -!- gabnet [~gabnet@86.67.23.234] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 21:49:11 well I mean you don't fit the problem to the language you fit the language to the problem 21:49:22 that's one part of it, yes. 21:49:43 the only thing I have ever heard said about lisp is that it's pretty 21:49:46 <_3b> lisp is a particularly flexible language, which allows it to be molded closer to more problems than a lot of languages 21:49:51 but lisp also lets you fix errors while you're running your program. 21:50:02 thats neat. 21:50:13 it's highly interactive, and redefining stuff is well-defined (most stuff, at least (-:) 21:51:16 that's fair. is lisp as fast as C? 21:51:24 <_3b> not really a meaningful question 21:51:28 so if you get an error that's caused by a function on the call chain, you can inspect it (to find the bug), redefine the function (to fix it), and restart evaluation from the faulty frame, and your computation will finish (: 21:51:39 davertron [~david@c-24-218-166-166.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:46 <_3b> sbcl ( a particular common lisp implementation) can frequently compete with C though 21:52:10 it's "within a constant factor of C performance" <-; 21:52:12 <_3b> and competes better when you factor in limited time avilable to spend on optimization 21:52:28 that's more what i'm wondering. If your only concern is speed does lisp compete with c 21:52:32 or figuring out how to model the problem in code in the first place :( 21:52:34 Sereal: fast as in execution speed, development speed, .. other speeds? 21:52:35 <_3b> but then, given arbitrary amounts of time, asm beats C too :) 21:52:36 "(:" I mean 21:52:41 execution speed 21:53:12 <_3b> and it is easy to call C from lisp, so you can fall back to C if you really need to 21:53:37 <_3b> (or prototype in CL and do a final implementation in C, etc) 21:53:53 so in other words execution speed is still faster in C. 21:53:55
If you're *that* worried about speed, you should use assembler (or Fortran if you *must* have a higher-level language). 21:54:14 <_3b> Sereal: depends on the task 21:54:21 i'm speaking more from if you want something to run as fast as possible with out using assembly 21:54:35 <_3b> still depends on the task 21:54:42 <_3b> and how much time you can spend working on it 21:54:48 and your implementation 21:54:54
then, Fortran (and, pay for a *good* compiler) 21:54:56 it's not in Lisp itself. 21:55:19 SBCL may be able to outperform C on the ASM it generates. Has proven to in the past. 21:55:23 <_3b> and not sure why you reject asm if you want 'as fast as possible with no regards for implementation time' 21:55:31 Sereal: Linus Torvalds relatively recently rewrote SHA-1 algo in pure C, and it turned out his version was faster than hand-made asm from OpenSSL(?) 21:55:52 Sereal: you're falling into the same trap 21:56:09
From what I've seen, CL is usually in the top of the bunch in all the (unfair) language speed competitons: almoast never the fastest or the slowest 21:56:14 That just means it was poorly made asm :p 21:56:15 Execution speed doesn't depend primarily on the programming language. 21:56:24 <_3b> lisp will let you try more high level implementations of your task faster than C will, so you might end up with a better algorithm 21:56:25 It depends primarily on the effort spent to optimise. :p 21:56:27 katesmith_ [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 21:56:45 it means, using lower-level language doesn't guarantee anything 21:56:47 per se 21:56:59 In an ideal world, nothing's faster than hand-optimized asm though. 21:57:10 Evious: Is that so? 21:57:10
One thing I like about CL is that I can get something working quickly, then do some profiling, etc. and then work on optimizing the important parts... 21:57:16 Evious: no 21:57:18 -!- jweiss_ [~user@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:57:29 <_3b> Evious: nah, in an 'ideal' world, a SSC wins and we get fast code for no effort :p 21:57:34 Odin-, yes - there are some interesting blogs/writeups on assembler optimization. It gets way lower level than C realistically can. 21:57:38 Evious: ...written for your particular machine configuration. 21:57:48 I guess let me rephrase the question, what are the downfalls of lisp 21:57:57 Evious: see printf(3) which is not allowed to look at format string to create optimized code vs FORMAT which can 21:58:10 Sereal: Do you have any non-trollish question? :p 21:58:12 <_3b> Sereal: it makes you hate writing in more mainstream languages once you realize their limitations :) 21:58:16 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:58:31 No infix operators maybe? Is that a downfall? 21:58:47 I don't mean to ask troll questions, they are dead serious - as foolish as they sound. 21:58:54
Evious: but, you can add them if you *really* must have them :) 21:59:01 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:59:02 Well dang. :p 21:59:10 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 21:59:21 <_3b> also, lisp isn't well suited for 'golf' style programming, in that it is a bit verbose on small scales, but it improves on larger projects due to more abstraction options 21:59:22
Sereal: thats another nice thing about Lisp: you can modify the *language* to suit your needs 21:59:44 dl: than language modifies you :-) 21:59:53 neat. 21:59:57
thats for sure!!!! 22:00:04 Sereal: Well, the issue is that these questions aren't really well-defined. 22:00:34 Odin-: True but I like "are there potential downfalls/what should I watch out for?" better than "Is it fast enough?" :) 22:00:34 Sereal: Lisp is exceptionally good at hard problems because you can basically construct a new programming language around the specific problem you're dealing with. 22:00:40
I was discussing with a co-worker Lisp macros this morning and was struggling with how to explain them to a C-programmer because they're just *not in C* 22:00:42 redline6561: Fair enough. :) 22:01:06 I realize that, I just have heard zero mention of lisp in school 22:01:13 <_3b> dl: assuming some exposure to c++, maybe 'like c++ metaprogramming, but not insane'? 22:01:13 -!- jweiss [~user@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:01:14 so I was curious 22:01:31 dl: well, C has non Turing-complete preprocessor, CL has Turing-complete one 22:01:32 Sereal: Because of this flexibility, however, you're not really likely to find too many ready solutions to problems, because everyone prefers their own... :p 22:01:41 dl: http://brandonbyars.com/2008/02/12/understanding-syntactic-macros/  that's a good writeup concerning various macro/preprocessor abstractions 22:01:43 Sereal: there are few people working on making awesome lisp libraries. but the ones who are, are putting out some really great stuff. 22:01:56 Sereal: You might want to have a look at the above link, too. 22:02:06 If reflecting a square matrix around its main (top-left to bottom right) diagonal is transposition, what's reflecting it around the other diagonal called? 22:02:25 is lisp being used in anything popular? like can you get a job programming in lisp? 22:02:48 Sereal: I hear that it's used for airline fare search. 22:03:00
adobriyan: thats exactly why its hard to explain them to a C programmer. What *would* it be like to have turing-complete macros in C?(!!!) 22:03:07 <_3b> Sereal: the main strategy is 'make your own job', but there are a few big lisp companies 22:03:17 Sereal: A friend of mine has a startup of 6-7 folks using Lisp, ITA Software just bought by Google for 1+ bn dollars is a heavy user of Lisp, etc etc 22:03:18 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:03:25 Difficult. Lisp is not used much in user-facing stuff; but there's quite a bit of backend code, I understand. 22:03:47 ah okay cool. 22:03:47 And Lisp jobs exist, but can be hard to find... 22:04:03 there isn't jobs in the same way there are jobs for c/c++ programmers. 22:04:04 <_3b> but then there aren't a huge number of lisp programmers either, so it isn't quite as bad as it sounds :) 22:04:05
Sereal: Lisp is used for everything from "web" type companies to stock market companies 22:04:08 (Says the man working in an Erlang shop.) 22:04:34 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755ec7.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:04:47
... and I've found it to be quite useful in my real-work as a system administrator :) 22:05:10 I find Lisp to be useful in... maintaining a lisp compiler? 22:05:24 Sereal: If you're really interested in Lisp, I'd suggest reading a few chapters of http://gigamonkeys.com/book/ 22:05:39 Sereal: Well, not in the sense that you can be an interchangeable code monkey, I suppose, no... 22:05:44 I find Lisp to be useful when I need to do exploratory programming to understand things, especially when it needs to go fast. 22:05:59
.. plus, learning lisp #1=(makes it so you can hack Emacs which in turn helps you to hack lisp which in turn #1) 22:06:00 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:06:02 Sereal: If you're just a hunting for a more productive language than C that still compiles to code that can be competitive in performance with C, there are several. We would advocate Common Lisp. 22:06:23 dl: heh 22:06:23 lisp first, c for the slow bits ... 22:06:32 dl: it means shit like that would be written in sane and obvious ways 22:06:42 *Odin-* has found Lisp useful in learning how to make use of C libraries through FFI and REPL toying... 22:06:43 dl: #define BUILD_BUG_ON(condition) ((void)sizeof(char[1 - 2*!!(condition)])) 22:06:56 Sereal: I have a job writing (mostly) lisp. in logistics. 22:06:58 *redline6561* thanks the Lisp Gods for CFFI 22:07:02 ah, should've use spoilers :-) 22:07:18 redline6561: agreed 22:07:25 thanks guys. sorry for the silly questions. 22:08:00 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-92-126-186.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:08:01 with cffi, lisp becomes a glue language >>> perl 22:08:09 Sereal: They're not necessarily silly. 22:08:34 -!- gozek [~quassel@56.165.216.87.static.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:08:36 dl: I mean a couple of _useful_ examples, which aren't possible without turing-complete cpp 22:08:49 Sereal: If most of what you're exposed to is C/C++/Java, you should definitely check out a Lisp or ML family language. There are very different ways to program which are more productive but still result in fast code. 22:09:22 yeah that's more what I was wondering - should I even bother looking at lisp and the answer seems to be yes 22:09:28 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:09:51 Sereal: Just don't ask us what Lisp is good for or bad for. It's good for programming. It's bad for when you need something that isn't lisp. Now check out sbcl and pcl. :) 22:09:54 minion: pcl 22:09:55 pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 22:10:15 i'll check if it's at my library 22:10:16 minion: sbcl 22:10:16 sbcl: Steel Bank Common Lisp is an open source / free software Common Lisp implementation. http://www.cliki.net/sbcl 22:10:32 Sereal: Sure. Or just print it out/read it online. 22:10:39 Sereal: it's also on the web 22:10:49 Hmm...maybe someone should host a PDF of it somewhere... 22:10:56 gigamonkey: Think that violates IP Laws? 22:10:57 redline6561: somehow at first glance I parsed that as "read it out loud" 22:11:09 redline6561: Apress used to make a PDF available. 22:11:14 gigamonkey: Haha. I'm starting a web radio stream for that right now... ;) 22:11:15 I've heard they don't any more. Dunno. 22:11:37 gigamonkey: If I dig one up would you be opposed to my hosting or have interest in putting it up at gigamonkeys.com/book 22:11:39 *? 22:11:44 gigamonkey: no, i think i saw it when it was new but forgot about it 22:11:59 -!- adobriyan [~ad@vulture-nat-36.telecom.by] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:12:04 redline6561: Actually I'd rather not have such a thing around. 22:12:41 I figure folks who are cheap can read it on the web site with my blessing (and/or figure out their own way to make that more convenient). But if the web is a drag, there's a good way to get a nicely printed dead-tree version. 22:13:05 gigamonkey: It's usually cheaper, too. 22:13:07 (Where I am also often "cheap" by that definition; not to disparage anyone. 22:13:10 mephisto_ [~mephisto@dyn-166.pool2.cable.TORON12.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 22:13:11 gigamonkey: Fair enough. I have a PDF in addition to dead tree...yet I always just use the web site. haha 22:13:13 gigamonkey: you could try to sell it on the AppStore. 22:13:24 -!- Ragnaroek1 [~Adium@p5B0C774C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:14:14 pjb: well, Apress could. 22:14:44 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:15:32 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 22:15:35 -!- superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.148] has quit [Quit: superflit] 22:16:52 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 22:16:53 pjb: That's an interesting thought, actually. I've been feeling the DocBook pain again, and have been thinking (again) about converting ccl's manual to LaTeX. I wonder if that would make it harder or easier to produce an ebook version that worked on, say, the iPad. 22:16:57 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:17:54 -!- dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has quit [Quit: "thanks!"] 22:18:21 rme: texinfo is pretty good at producing html and pdf outputs 22:18:27 rme: and it worked for sbcl in the past. 22:18:32 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-23-137-233.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:18:41 (and texi is pretty nice to work with, for technical documentation) 22:19:09 smarkup produces equally ugly pdf (via cl-pdf) and xhtml! 22:19:14 -!- davertron [~david@c-24-218-166-166.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:19:42 Is it possible to define point-free syntax in Lisp? (Program via a pipeline of data transformations, turning stuff like f(g(h(...))) into f . g . h 22:20:02 Evious: sure. You can even skip the dotts. 22:20:49 We dumped texinfo once already, so going back to that is probably a non-starter. :-) 22:21:15 rme: Why'd it get dumped? 22:21:48 It was before I was involved. I understand that it was even more painful than DocBook, if that is possible. 22:21:50 <_3b> lisp semantics is defined in terms of objects rather than syntax, and lisp syntax is implemented almost entirely by user-level code, so you can change the syntax quite a bit (completely if you don't mind implementing a full reader) 22:22:15 astoon [~astoon@109.188.194.138] has joined #lisp 22:22:22 rme: I don't believe a word of it (: 22:22:35 -!- mephisto_ [~mephisto@dyn-166.pool2.cable.TORON12.iasl.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:22:53 rme: sbcl switched to texi from docbook, and it is way better. (: 22:22:59 doesn't mean more people write texi docs now (; 22:23:40 Good morning everyone! 22:24:05 but anyway, it's the one thing I know that works for tech docs, can produce mostly nice html and mostly nice pdf 22:24:11 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:24:13 (and definitely works for ebooks like .mobi) 22:24:31 I've converted the dpans2texi hyperspec to .mobi for my kindle once, and it worked very well 22:24:44 didn't use it as much as I wanted, but it's definitely nice (: 22:27:15 hey beach 22:27:37 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@46.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:30:07 Odin-: actually, in a way, lisp is used a lot in graphical user interfaces. 22:30:21 amb007 [~a_bakic@46.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:32 just curious: you've fired up a new lisp image and you want to throw some expressions at it to see if it's working (but not in a regression-test kind of way) ... what do you enter at the repl? 22:30:43 Odin-: Interface Builder, which is at the base of Apple survival in the 21th century, and the creation of the iPhone and iPad, was originally invented and written in LeLisp. 22:30:43 pjb: Oh? 22:30:48 Ah. 22:30:59 <_3b> blackwolf: (+ 1 2) ? 22:31:00 Odin-: only when it was sold to NeXT Computer Inc, was it rewritten in Objective-C. 22:31:34 Why does that not surprise me? 22:31:39 And of course, all the web servers written in Lisp, that made their authors billionaires (thanks Yahoo!), were facing the users. 22:31:42 _3b: yeah, I tend to do (+ 1 2 3), but same idea ... 22:32:23 *Odin-* has a random thought. 22:32:47 Isn't there anyone building a CL compiler through LLVM? 22:32:52 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:33:06 -!- mheld_ [~mheld@c-75-69-89-109.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: mheld_] 22:33:36 -!- astoon [~astoon@109.188.194.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:33:37 Odin-: it's been discussed. I don't think anyone is doing it. 22:34:33 rme: I don't know, but my guess is that the AppStore takes PDF. 22:36:24 Bah. Can someone point me to a simple minded explanation of symmetry that doesn't jump immediately into group theory. 22:36:34 Odin-: AFAIK, the latests CL implementations are XCL implemented in C++ and sicl implemented in CL. 22:36:35 I'm just trying to understand the ways one can manipulate a tic-tac-toe board. 22:37:00 pjb: don't forget the brazilian one. 22:37:00 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:37:03 I.e. game-preserving symmetries and how to express them as permutations of a position. 22:37:13 <_3b> rotate, mirror along x,y,xy,-xy 22:37:14 pjb: longino, i think. 22:37:17 symetry is any transformation f(x) such as f^n(x)=x for some n. 22:37:23 pjb: plus the ecl fork, MKCL 22:37:29 Sereal: The discussion might have drifted off in the meantime, but here's an interesing round-up of some recent lisp usage: http://www.pchristensen.com/blog/lisp-companies/ 22:37:45 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-53-100.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo] 22:37:46 does f^n(x) mean f applied n times? 22:38:10 tolstoy [~Keith@74-95-41-77-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 22:38:15 _3b: but some combination of those turn into the same permutation. 22:38:34 <_3b> true, another way to think about it would be to normalize the first few moves 22:38:49 <_3b> for example first move is either upper left, upper center, or center 22:40:05 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:40:33 *_3b* isn't sure that strategy generalizes very well though 22:40:36 It seems (based on my purely emperical flailing around), that any combination of rotations, horizontal and vertical mirrorings, and transpositions can also be composed out of zero or one horizontal mirror, zero or one vertical mirror, and zero or one transposition. 22:40:51 I'm trying to understand a) if that's right and b) if so, why? 22:42:55 bjobae [4db05548@gateway/web/freenode/ip.77.176.85.72] has joined #lisp 22:43:32 Jubb [~ghost@c-98-204-160-127.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:35 bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:00 <_3b> possibly thinking in terms of transforming the coordinates by a 2x2 matrix would help? 22:44:24 2x2? 22:44:51 *_3b* thinks so 22:45:00 Okay, you lost me. 22:45:02 <_3b> since you don't need translations 22:45:16 <_3b> and are starting with 2d coordinates 22:45:35 gigamonkey: that's a theorem proven, IIRC, by Laplace 22:45:37 gigamonkey: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Transformation_matrix 22:46:42 rootlocus [~rootlocus@240218000001280102264afffe09eee2.ptr-ipv6.nicta.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:30 I like how the secure.wikimedia.org site gets the https crossed out in Chrome. 22:48:40 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has left #lisp 22:49:10 <_3b> well, never know when someone might be secretly messing with your equations-rendered-as-images to trick you into misdesigning your missles :) 22:49:29 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:49:31 So is the idea that you use a 2x2 matrix and multiply it by each x,y that indexes into the 3x3 board to get the new x',y' where the value in the old x,y goes into the new x',y' ? 22:49:36 I think all the loud warning and https crossed out are very misleading. A self-signed cert is *far* safer than plaintext-over-the wire in any case. 22:49:40 This is just plain dumb. 22:50:16 antoszka: I think in this case it's because not everything on the page is served via HTTPS. 22:50:49 Maybe in that case, yes  but that's Chrome's reaction to any self-signed fully-encrypted webpage, too. 22:51:28 Either self-signed, or without a complete certification chain, that is. 22:51:54 *Xach* is pleased that https://www.quicklisp.org/ is green 22:52:05 lanthan [~ze@80.64.176.30] has joined #lisp 22:52:06 <_3b> gigamonkey: right (i think), with 0,0 as the center of the board 22:52:21 Xach: Go, daddy! 22:52:32 the price was right 22:52:41 How much do those guys charge? 22:52:55 I think it's around $20/year 22:52:58 Might be less. 22:53:02 (And do fathers get a discount?) 22:53:06 Hey, that's cheap. 22:54:05 -!- tolstoy [~Keith@74-95-41-77-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 22:54:53 Actually it's fifty bucks a year. 22:55:58 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 22:57:32 -!- lanthan [~ze@80.64.176.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:57:38 Mococa [~Mococa@189.59.215.244] has joined #lisp 22:57:47 -!- jsoftw [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:58:07 jsoftw [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 22:58:10 <_3b> gigamonkey: i think all of the applicable transforms would have 0s in 1 diagonal, and +-1 in the other, so 8 possibilities? 22:58:36 tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:45 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:05 _3b: that's what I'm getting empirically. 23:01:58 <_3b> i guess the signs of the two 1s would correspond to your moriz and vertical mirros, then which diagonal the 1s are on would be the transposition 23:02:13 <_3b> s/moriz/horizontal/ 23:02:20 *sykopomp* is sad that teepeedee2 doesn't seem to be in quicklisp. 23:03:08 dmytrish_ [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has joined #lisp 23:03:47 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:04:15 <_3b> does it still object to current parenscript? 23:04:26 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-152-167.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:04:26 -!- McMAGIC-- [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:04:37 Ah, is that why? 23:04:57 I don't really know. I need to manually install it, I guess. :( 23:05:03 <_3b> i remember that being a problem at one point, don't know if it still is, or if that is related to it being in ql or not 23:05:11 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.59.215.244] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:05:14 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:16 -!- dmytrish [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:06:34 rvirding [~chatzilla@h134n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 23:06:39 *_3b* doesn't see it in the github issues for quicklisp-projects, so not sure if it has been considered or not 23:08:06 McMAGIC-- [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--] has joined #lisp 23:09:13 -!- jajcloz [~jaj@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jajcloz] 23:09:49 <_3b> does (301) redirecting /foo/ to /foo make sense for some reason i don't see? 23:10:15 *_3b* thinks of /foo/ as being a shortcut for /foo/index.html, and would expect /foo to redirect to /foo/ 23:10:29 -!- brodo [~brodo@p5B025B7B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: brodo] 23:12:33 lanthan [~ze@80.64.176.30] has joined #lisp 23:12:49 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:13:21 lambda [lambda@c-76-118-155-244.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:24 Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 23:14:26 rtoym_ [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 23:14:51 -!- rtoym_ [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:15:06 rtoym_ [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 23:15:11 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:15:32 _3b: it was in quicklisp 23:15:44 _3b: then it had a conflict with parenscript, and the response was "parenscript is stupid now and i won't change!" 23:16:14 maybe he can be persuaded to track parenscript-classic now that it exists 23:16:24 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:16:41 praise clinton 23:16:57 george? 23:17:17 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:17:18 -!- rtoym_ is now known as rtoym 23:17:24 mheld_ [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:10 aka unknown_lamer 23:18:18 dmiles_akf [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:23 ah 23:18:23 -!- dmiles_akf [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:18:25 you blew his cover! 23:18:44 What does ||l|| mean when l is a vector? (math notation, not Lisp) 23:18:48 happily, he's not that secretrive. :) 23:19:14 dmiles_akf [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:35 gigamonkey: The norm. 23:19:45 *slyrus* praises george clinton anyway 23:20:14 sykopomp: i'm going to make a client update that would let you go back to a quicklisp world where tpd2 existed 23:20:17 -!- mheld_ [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:20:22 sykopomp: with the benefits and drawbacks that has... 23:20:43 sykopomp: tpd2 updated with ps-classic might be a better future 23:21:10 indeed 23:21:11 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:21:29 I'm going to try the patch manually for now and see if that helps. 23:21:37 timack [~tim@hlfx62-1-116.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 23:21:40 Mococa [~Mococa@189.59.215.244] has joined #lisp 23:21:41 *gigamonkey* wonders how long he'd have to go back to school for to learn enough math that he isn't constantly banging up against his mathematical illiteracy. 23:21:41 What patch? 23:21:50 gigamonkey: just in time to die 23:21:56 s/:parenscript/:parenscript-classic/ 23:21:57 gigamonkey: it's a lot easier for me to figure out what ||x|| means than it is ||l|| in this stupid font 23:22:33 slyrus: sorry, yeah. I took that example from the thing I was trying to grok. 23:22:34 Euthydemus` [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:50 sykopomp: let me know how it goes 23:22:59 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:23:13 Xach: Aye aye, cap'n. 23:23:22 sykopomp: i hate to see petty differences come between projects and their quicklisp availability! 23:23:31 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:23:45 It's a little on the 'ugh' side that a perfectly good web server has to pull in a javascript library :( 23:23:58 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-182-139.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:24:01 *sykopomp* imagines he'll find out how appropriate 'perfectly good' was in short notice. 23:24:48 -!- dmiles_akf [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:24:53 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:26:45 -!- katesmith_ is now known as katesmith 23:29:23 sykopomp: good luck (: 23:30:10 aww 23:30:16 parenscript-classic doesn't have for-in? 23:30:59 gigamonkey: yes, f^n(x) = fofof...of(x) 23:31:34 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-182-139.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 23:32:27 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h134n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:33:21 rvirding [~chatzilla@h134n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 23:33:50 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:34:02 gigamonkey: basically, for symetries, f(f(x))=x, or fof=id (id=identity). 23:34:34 *_3b* thought parenscript-classic was even older version of parenscript 23:36:09 -!- fisted [~fisted@unaffiliated/fisted] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:36:30 gigamonkey: you may watch the linear algebra opencourseware http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/mathematics/18-06-linear-algebra-spring-2010/index.htm 23:36:35 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:36:38 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:17 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 23:43:23 fisted [~fisted@unaffiliated/fisted] has joined #lisp 23:45:59 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-182-139.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:47:24 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-191-71.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:47:53 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has quit [Quit: bye papa] 23:50:06 davertron [~david@c-24-218-166-166.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:50:20 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 23:52:08 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@bb116-14-191-157.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:52:50 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-50-127-150.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:59:44 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-76-245-62-252.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]