00:00:13 p_l|backup: and actively drawing from his work at Princeton :) 00:01:05 though technically if one was very specific, Babbage's machine is first computer design... and at the same first computer design derailed by funding issues 00:01:53 p_l|backup: I thought it was the Jacquard loom 00:02:04 Also, it would have been pretty difficult to execute with the technology available then, afair. 00:02:07 mon_key: it wasn't Turing-complete 00:02:08 p_l|backup:  00:02:25 antoszka: technically it was doable, but at too high cost 00:02:32 Uhm. 00:03:04 p_l|backup: Why not? I don't buy it. 00:03:20 mon_key: if it was a computer, then every music box would also be a computer 00:03:38 music boxes don't sequence 00:04:08 In what sense of the word "sequence"? 00:04:12 music boxes are multicore 00:04:27 >.< 00:04:58 mon_key: the control stream of a music box and Jacquard loom is the same 00:05:05 p_l: don't forget Rejewski 00:05:16 hmm 00:05:26 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@75-175-110-228.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:05:42 p_l|backup: Maybe but a music box is strictly linear, the loom wasn't 00:05:52 mon_key: the loom was strictly linear 00:06:03 every hole in punched card referred to a single row 00:06:11 Why would the loom need to be anything but linear? 00:06:28 ... row? Not column, and each card be a row? 00:06:39 (or so, don't remember exactly - it was incapable of storing or computing) 00:07:01 adeht: it was his work that I meant - Rejewski, Róyski and Zygalski 00:07:45 p_l|backup: If babbage gets it so does jacquard :) 00:08:08 mon_key: Babbage's full design included microcoded CPU, memory, and I/O 00:08:51 and to make it funnier, the design principles involved might be resurrected with nanotechnology 00:09:02 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.148.136] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:09:22 p_l|backup: you're incapable of storing or computing 00:09:56 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:10:19 p_l|backup: did the memory/storage get built or was it just speced? 00:10:46 -!- waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-5d87f593.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: WTF? leaving!] 00:11:10 EOF-sensei: my visual and sensorimotor cortexes and hindbrain might be too automated for that, but memory subsystems and frontal lobe are turing complete 00:11:45 waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-5d87f593.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 00:12:00 mon_key: it was never finished, however some parts capable of executing programs were done, leading to loss of the first computer program when the tape reader jammed and shredded the tape 00:12:32 So, the first hello world program was destroyed? 00:13:19 it wasn't hello world, it was something numeric, they didn't think of doing string processing yet... 00:13:38 p_l|backup: it is the "capable of executing programs" part i find problematic w/r/t jacquard 00:13:56 Yeah, I figured it would be, but the joke was too good to pass up. 00:14:05 hmm 00:14:26 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-128-236.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:14:27 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.148.136] has joined #lisp 00:16:19 mon_key: the loom had less capability than microcode used in bit-slice processors, cause it couldn't loop. Without looping nor recursion, there's no turing equivalence 00:17:03 basically, it's not turing machine (or at least definitely not universal turing machine) 00:17:04 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:29 p_l|backup: maybe so, but where is this anymore so in Babbage's? 00:18:20 mon_key: the full machine included jump instructions, afaik 00:18:22 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:25 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-110-228.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:37 full as in not just speced? :P 00:19:21 The data and program memory were separated, operation was instruction based, the control unit could make conditional jumps and the machine had a separate I/O unit. 00:21:21 what are you quoting? 00:21:34 also, in 1991 people built a complete difference engine, keeping tolerances assumed in original schematics and what was available to babbage 00:22:31 Mmm... I remember hearing about this. 00:22:38 nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has joined #lisp 00:22:38 -!- nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has quit [Changing host] 00:22:39 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 00:22:51 Some of the schematics were apparently deliberately wrong, but once corrected the machine actually worked? 00:23:33 the analytical engine, which Babbage was working on till his death, and for which the first computer program was written, was turing complete design that never got finished 00:23:53 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:24:03 The Analytical Engine, an important step in the history of computers, is a design for a mechanical general-purpose computer first described by English mathematician Charles Babbage in 1837.[2] It was the successor to Babbage's difference engine, a design for a mechanical calculator. The Analytical Engine incorporated an arithmetical unit, control flow in the form of conditional branching and loops, and integrated memory, making it the first T 00:24:03 -!- alama [~alama@a79-169-93-235.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: alama] 00:25:32 Just to be sure, were either the "difference engine" or the "analytical engine" ever completed contemporary with their design? 00:27:37 e.g. maybe Babbage's machiens were like the Scheme '79 :P 00:28:03 no, but it was tested that it was possible using contemporary technology, just Babbage lost funding (and was in conflict with his chief engineer at some point) 00:29:22 My Dogs 00:29:33 Ma Chiens 00:29:50 tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.66.60] has joined #lisp 00:30:23 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:31:10 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 00:34:10 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-50-127-150.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:34:18 -!- 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[~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633488.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:12:05 -!- ebzzry [~aoeu@203.213.202.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:12:10 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 03:12:47 -!- Saturnation [~dsouth@71.169.182.79] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 03:12:49 cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.139.95.133] has joined #lisp 03:13:57 when you are mutating a gene in ga do you do it on the children, or in a on the population when you're creating the next generation? 03:14:12 i mean or on the population 03:14:38 ebzzry [~aoeu@203.213.202.186] has joined #lisp 03:15:25 the children 03:16:38 thanks adeht 03:16:58 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440758.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 03:17:36 -!- beach [~user@116.118.73.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:18:28 beach` [~user@116.118.73.64] has joined #lisp 03:20:40 so each child is under the same mutation rate right? meaning i don't run a seperate probability to determine if they each alone need to be mutated 03:22:58 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.232.125] has joined #lisp 03:23:35 -!- austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:28:05 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:36:35 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:36:49 o.O 03:39:04 evening 03:39:22 hihi 03:41:55 Adamant [~Adamant@97-83-97-117.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 03:41:55 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@97-83-97-117.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 03:41:55 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 03:52:33 -!- pnkfelix1 [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:56:09 *_3b* wonders if i should continue trying to figure out how defservice works, or just fork it and make it work how i think it should 03:58:50 _3b: what kind of problems are you having? 03:59:16 -!- tmh [635b0bae@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:59:57 <_3b> at this point, just figuring out how to make /foo /foo/ and /foo/bar work 04:01:03 <_3b> (where /foo and /foo/ display the same thing) 04:02:32 -!- ebzzry [~aoeu@203.213.202.186] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:02:34 *_3b* already has to patch the hunchentoot part to even allow me to dispatch from the top of the path 04:02:49 ebzzry [~aoeu@203.213.202.186] has joined #lisp 04:03:02 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:04:11 gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.222.29] has joined #lisp 04:10:21 Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 04:11:15 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-74-247.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 04:14:08 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-yrgktcuvarcpjahy] has joined #lisp 04:14:08 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-yrgktcuvarcpjahy] has quit [Changing host] 04:14:08 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 04:14:53 cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.78] has joined #lisp 04:15:00 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.78] has quit [Changing host] 04:15:00 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 04:21:46 a :before method that strips final / ? 04:21:47 <_3b> hmm, seems to be some sort of meaning to symbols ending in * in the dispatch, wonder what that applies to 04:22:26 *_3b* isn't sure where would be a sane place to put that method 04:24:07 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:24:44 somewhere in the chain that starts th dispatch? 04:28:34 Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 04:31:08 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:36:39 <_3b> still wouldn't help with /foo/?bar i think 04:37:24 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 04:37:56 <_3b> unlike just commenting out the bit that makes /foo/ redirect to itself except in some circumstances i can't figure out how to cause 04:39:20 <_3b> dunno what that redirect should be doing if it worked, or how to make the bit that keeps it from triggering work 04:41:17 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 04:42:21 is the file?params in any way standardized in other way than CGI? 04:42:46 <_3b> i think so 04:44:10 I think it's just a part of CGI spec 04:46:42 <_3b> nah, URI and HTTP RFCs talk about it too 04:47:45 <_3b> though now that i think about it, i think hunchentoot already split those off by the time i see it 04:47:58 jsoftw [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 04:48:59 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:49:50 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 04:50:34 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 04:50:43 youguy [~youguy@89.pool85-56-107.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 04:50:49 Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 04:51:06 -!- qbomb [~qbomb@roata1213s1.lecnet.com] has left #lisp 04:51:26 -!- oconnore [~eric@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:51:40 <_3b> hmm, replacing an eq with equal makes /foo/ redirect to /foo 04:52:22 -!- metasyntax [~taylor@72.86.89.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:53:36 oconnore [~eric@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:53:52 Anyone managed to get lispworks-sdl running via quicklisp on OSX ? I bump into a cocoahelper library problem. 04:55:06 ... I think it's somewhat perverse to serve various CADR-related files from ITS public webserver... 04:59:17 -!- youguy [~youguy@89.pool85-56-107.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:59:59 <_3b> jsoftw: http://groups.google.com/group/quicklisp/browse_thread/thread/d25c048674658efa/6c223bdae7263b8c ? 05:00:45 astoon [~astoon@109.188.196.105] has joined #lisp 05:03:11 jsoft: lispworks-sdl? 05:03:21 *_3b* assumed lispbuilder-sdl 05:03:42 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 05:03:49 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.232.125] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 05:04:38 jsoftw: is cocoahelper built for the same arch as your sbcl? 05:04:51 cocoahelper should probably be built as a fat library 05:04:57 but its not currently 05:06:17 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.148.136] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:06:35 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.148.136] has joined #lisp 05:07:45 I dont think it is built at all. 05:08:25 oh yeah, lispbuilder 05:08:29 not lispworks :) 05:10:34 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-adfxalvyzdjbrecg] has joined #lisp 05:10:56 is there an universal order predicate in lisp ? 05:11:47 i mean i'm writing one but i feel like i'm reinventing something 05:12:07 jsoftw: ok, first thing is you have to build it 05:12:16 second, the arch has to match 05:12:44 third, if you're using slime make sure you have (setf swank:*communication-style* :sigio) in your .swankrc 05:12:51 then it should work 05:13:00 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@204.14.152.118] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 05:18:29 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 05:18:30 -!- astoon [~astoon@109.188.196.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:19:19 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 05:20:21 hmmm ok 05:25:32 Hundenn [~Hunden@e180099104.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 05:26:42 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:26:58 Where did you guys get your cocoahelper from? 05:28:56 -!- Hunden [~Hunden@e180103059.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:29:49 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 05:33:10 -!- beach` is now known as beach 05:37:27 Adamant_ [~Adamant@97-83-97-117.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 05:37:27 -!- Adamant_ [~Adamant@97-83-97-117.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 05:37:27 Adamant_ [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 05:37:52 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:37:53 -!- Adamant_ is now known as Adamant 05:39:25 it's in the lispbuilder-sdl source, isn't it? 05:52:16 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:52:20 basho__ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-144-102.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 05:59:32 *jsoftw* fights to get it built 05:59:49 having the same problems I had the other day. 05:59:51 Just wont build. 06:02:07 metasyntax [~taylor@184.18.7.169] has joined #lisp 06:03:01 -!- Edisto [~IceChat7@c-67-169-114-235.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 06:03:24 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-suwriiyemqozhfil] has joined #lisp 06:07:50 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-92-126-186.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:09:20 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.139.95.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:12:22 -!- carlo_au [~carlo@ppp59-167-2-5.lns1.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 06:16:32 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA21B61.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:18:00 -!- rootlocus [~rootlocus@2402:1800:1:2801:226:4aff:fe09:eee2] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:18:45 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.148.136] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:19:52 you're doing it wrong 06:20:15 :P 06:20:28 Nah it just needs to be beaten into submission. 06:24:52 nostoi [~nostoi@86.Red-79-154-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 06:25:53 tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 06:26:33 Great success. 06:26:36 I win :D 06:27:25 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.89.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:27:52 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 06:29:02 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 06:30:15 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.67.7] has joined #lisp 06:36:56 -!- metasyntax [~taylor@184.18.7.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:37:28 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 06:37:28 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 06:37:28 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:39:36 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:40:20 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:40:31 mattrepl [~mattrepl@c-69-181-1-27.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:40:31 Adamant [~Adamant@97-83-97-117.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 06:40:31 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@97-83-97-117.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 06:40:32 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 06:40:58 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:41:08 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@86.Red-79-154-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 06:41:56 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-123.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:42:13 metasyntax [~taylor@184.18.7.169] has joined #lisp 06:44:39 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.67.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:45:31 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.88.93] has joined #lisp 06:47:57 Yay I got it working. 06:48:02 *jsoftw* applauds himself 06:49:33 Ragnaroek [~Adium@p5B0C2811.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:49:44 ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 06:50:49 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:53:01 *ZabaQ* claps politely, too 06:54:07 mgindulescu [~mircea@nat/nokia/x-wgtxhfnepnthdbgm] has joined #lisp 06:54:08 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:54:26 -!- mgindulescu [~mircea@nat/nokia/x-wgtxhfnepnthdbgm] has left #lisp 06:54:41 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-152-248.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:57:11 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-123.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:57:11 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-152-180.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:57:28 kilo_ [7aa7eb15@gateway/web/freenode/ip.122.167.235.21] has joined #lisp 06:59:38 -!- tenawa [~user@adsl-75-53-123-94.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 07:00:25 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.88.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:01:33 lemoinem [~swoog@245-76-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 07:02:41 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43IiSvbyIZY game dev in common lisp, if anyone is mildly bored 07:03:46 koning_robot [~user@s5597d50c.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #lisp 07:04:02 greaver [~jo@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 07:04:07 -!- kilo_ [7aa7eb15@gateway/web/freenode/ip.122.167.235.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:08:23 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@c-69-181-1-27.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 07:08:52 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:18:27 youguy [~youguy@11.Red-193-152-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:19:58 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has joined #lisp 07:19:58 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has quit [Changing host] 07:19:58 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 07:22:05 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:22:41 waaaaaargh_ [~waaaaargh@agsb-5d87f83e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:24:17 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-32-14-244.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 07:24:18 Atomsk [ace4016@adsl-32-14-244.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 07:25:03 astoon [~astoon@178-16-146-17.obit.ru] has joined #lisp 07:25:12 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 07:25:32 Davsebamse [~das@94.127.50.104] has joined #lisp 07:26:23 -!- Ragnaroek [~Adium@p5B0C2811.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:26:26 -!- waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-5d87f593.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:27:50 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-157-151.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:33:06 -!- ckelly [~ckelly@microgravity.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:34:53 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@245-76-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:36:21 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has joined #lisp 07:38:30 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:38:48 good morning 07:40:30 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.89.167] has joined #lisp 07:53:16 astoon_ [~astoon@178-16-146-17.obit.ru] has joined #lisp 07:53:58 -!- youguy [~youguy@11.Red-193-152-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 07:55:11 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-vtwudedggyvyewzb] has joined #lisp 08:01:15 youguy [~youguy@11.Red-193-152-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:02:38 tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 08:02:53 billitch: a universal order predicate? Aren't you comparing apples to oranges? 08:04:48 slash_ [~unknown@pD955B3F3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:04:52 -!- lambda [~joshua@c-76-118-155-244.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:08:26 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:10:57 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-113-201.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:13:00 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 08:15:00 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-77-220.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:15:48 ltriant [~ltriant@124-168-76-146.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 08:16:18 lanthan_ [~ze@p54B7E26B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:16:57 -!- lanthan_ [~ze@p54B7E26B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:17:06 aerique [310225@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:18:06 Can't locate module: SWANK-IO-PACKAGE::SWANK-ASDF 08:18:06 [Condition of type SIMPLE-ERROR] 08:18:20 ^^ that's been pissing me off for a while now :-( anyone knows what that is? 08:18:28 but I should describe the problem first 08:18:44 trying to connect via slime to a lisp running on a system I can't access otherwise (I have no shell there) 08:19:06 I'm compiling my app with buildapp, and carefully loading swank there and creating the swank server it on startup 08:19:20 if I connect with my usual emacs setup, I get the above 08:19:21 -!- lanthan [~ze@p54B7CB21.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:19:44 the way I managed to do it is to start with a clean emacs (emacs -q), load slime, (slime-setup '(slime-repl)) and then it works fine 08:20:06 but it's pissing me off to use a clean emacs :-( 08:20:31 homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-152-248.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:21:07 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-152-248.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:21:28 mishoo_: a wild guess: you're missing some modules in the remote image that you are trying to initialize in your emacs 08:22:28 mishoo_: and it cannot be located because you do not have them loaded at "buildapp time" 08:22:49 mishoo_: and they are probably not there on the machine your image is running 08:22:57 just a guess 08:23:15 rootzlevel [~hpd@188-195-186-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:24:01 jdz: yeah, so I thought, but even when I tried loading them all I still got the error :-\ 08:24:38 I even tried to put all slime files in a directory listed in asdf:*central-registry*, but no luck 08:24:39 don't put slime-asdf into your slime-setup 08:25:05 tcr: I have (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)), so I suspect that loads slime-asdf too 08:25:36 but I'd like to keep using slime-fancy... :) 08:26:13 hm, in fact I'm loading slime using the slime-helper.el in quicklisp 08:26:24 and that does (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) 08:27:24 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-53-100.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:28:12 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-53-100.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 08:29:17 then start with an explicit enumeration of the contribs you want 08:29:39 Ragnaroek [~Adium@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 08:30:37 but is there a way I could make sure that all the needed stuff gets compiled in when I buildapp? 08:30:48 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 08:30:49 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-74-247.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 08:34:36 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-suwriiyemqozhfil] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:35:23 -!- mishoo_ is now known as mishoo 08:35:58 I guess, I don't know how the process works though so you'd have to take a look at the things involved 08:36:49 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:37:34 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-149-75.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:37:48 What is a way to set a value to what assoc returns? 08:38:10 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-149-75.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:38:43 so if I have '((1 "blah")) I want to change "blah" to "new blah" 08:39:37 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has left #lisp 08:41:14 jsoft: (defvar tmp '((1 "blah"))) (setf (cdr (assoc 1 tmp)) "new blah") tmp ==> ((1 . "new blah")) 08:41:28 Hmmmm 08:41:58 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-74-247.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 08:47:13 mishoo, jsoftw: (defvar *tmp* (list (cons 1 "blah"))) 08:48:10 s/cons/list depending on what you need 08:48:14 jdz: true, brother :) 08:48:27 my point was about modifying constants 08:48:43 yeah 08:49:40 ckelly [~ckelly@biop230.leidenuniv.nl] has joined #lisp 08:50:03 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:50:24 c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-rxymhfdcdhvjwuwk] has joined #lisp 08:50:35 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:51:15 wow, I've done it! 08:51:27 passing --eval '(swank-loader:init :load-contribs t)' to buildapp did the trick 08:51:59 chr [~user@148.122.202.244] has joined #lisp 08:55:04 Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 08:55:11 -!- greaver [~jo@212.88.117.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:56:39 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.89.167] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:56:43 -!- chrnybo` [~user@148.122.202.244] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:57:19 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 08:57:58 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.92.74] has joined #lisp 09:00:20 -!- ebzzry [~aoeu@203.213.202.186] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:02:44 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 09:03:40 greaver [~jo@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 09:05:04 ebzzry [~aoeu@203.213.202.186] has joined #lisp 09:05:17 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-179.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 09:10:10 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:10:19 -!- Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:14:14 -!- homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-152-248.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:17:01 lanthan [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:18:31 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-152-248.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:20:23 -!- emporas [~emporas@athedsl-167153.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:23:19 -!- ebzzry [~aoeu@203.213.202.186] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:23:37 ebzzry [~aoeu@203.213.202.186] has joined #lisp 09:26:32 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.222.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:26:50 soerenbnoergaard [~soren@193.3.39.1] has joined #lisp 09:28:52 Hi, I am modifying my .emacs file, to make a LaTeX shortcut for inserting \frac{}{}, and position between the first two brackets. What I need now is to go to the next pair of brackets by pressing TAB. How can I do this? 09:31:28 soerenbnoergaard: #emacs is ------> that way 09:33:34 -!- soerenbnoergaard [~soren@193.3.39.1] has left #lisp 09:33:47 -!- basho__ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-144-102.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:36:02 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-nndhozjqcpzzpbyj] has joined #lisp 09:36:03 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-nndhozjqcpzzpbyj] has quit [Changing host] 09:36:03 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 09:37:25 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:39:10 gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.222.19] has joined #lisp 09:39:43 bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:42:29 killerboy [~mateusz@pc-212-51-221-162.p.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 09:43:29 orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has joined #lisp 09:44:14 tcr [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 09:45:11 youguy_ [~youguy@1.Red-79-158-63.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:45:24 -!- koning_robot [~user@s5597d50c.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:46:51 -!- youguy [~youguy@11.Red-193-152-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:49:05 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.92.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:49:53 lemoinem [~swoog@193-73-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 09:55:07 -!- benny [~benny@i577A2593.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:56:29 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-loqkrmfxfybytike] has joined #lisp 09:57:09 emporas [~emporas@athedsl-167153.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 09:57:16 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.59] has joined #lisp 09:57:56 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 10:00:00 -!- youguy_ [~youguy@1.Red-79-158-63.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 10:02:53 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:03:12 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-136-187.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:04:11 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-loqkrmfxfybytike] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:04:38 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-vrfvkuyxmiadvche] has joined #lisp 10:05:06 -!- QinGW [~wangqingw@60.247.26.3] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:06:20 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.59] has joined #lisp 10:06:40 -!- aerique [310225@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:08:58 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has joined #lisp 10:09:13 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:09:28 maxigas [~user@dsl51B65226.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 10:11:09 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:11:35 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 10:13:15 -!- astoon [~astoon@178-16-146-17.obit.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:13:31 jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-36-112.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:13:36 -!- astoon_ [~astoon@178-16-146-17.obit.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:13:40 -!- greaver [~jo@212.88.117.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:15:23 -!- kerx [~kerx@209.208.63.169] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:15:46 -!- maxigas [~user@dsl51B65226.pool.t-online.hu] has left #lisp 10:16:55 greaver [~jo@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 10:18:34 Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:23:59 I need a can of bug repellent 10:24:23 wah 10:24:40 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@155.69.43.70] has left #lisp 10:25:55 can anyone direct me to a good resource on how to integrate c functions with lisp? 10:26:22 landr: would cffi be sufficient? useful for calling c from Lisp 10:26:39 *Landr* checks 10:27:28 yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 10:27:38 and cffi has a sensible manual 10:31:17 aerique [310225@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 10:31:33 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-136-187.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 10:35:10 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-064-182-012.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:35:43 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-136-187.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:37:52 -!- orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:38:08 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@pc-212-51-221-162.p.lodz.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:43:21 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 10:46:34 -!- emporas [~emporas@athedsl-167153.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:49:26 -!- Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:50:03 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:51:06 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 10:52:56 Kenjin [~josesanto@188.140.2.175] has joined #lisp 10:53:35 killerboy [~mateusz@pc-212-51-207-166.p.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 10:54:59 tr3x [~tr3x@46.188.173.29] has joined #lisp 10:55:52 BeniaminQ [~quassel@host-195-88-115-34.hypernet.biz.pl] has joined #lisp 10:57:30 mega1 [~user@catv4E5C915D.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 10:58:36 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:59:22 Bronsa [~brace@host181-175-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:03:52 meh, why aren't the bindings by destructuring-bind setfable? 11:04:41 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:04:59 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:09:12 drdo: You can kind of get that when you're using defstruct's :type list and with-slots 11:10:12 Would be cool if ASDF had a way to dump its dependency graph into a depends.mk 11:13:22 -!- BeniaminQ [~quassel@host-195-88-115-34.hypernet.biz.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:20:46 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host181-175-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:22:11 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:26:59 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@193-73-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:28:02 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.81.19] has joined #lisp 11:28:51 Bronsa [~brace@host181-175-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:33:46 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-178-209-13.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:38:26 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:41:44 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:42:34 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-182-200-111.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:45:27 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-136-187.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 11:47:32 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.59] has joined #lisp 11:49:45 drdo: the bindings established by destructuring-bind are setfable. 11:50:00 minion: memo for drdo: the bindings established by destructuring-bind are setfable. 11:50:01 Remembered. I'll tell drdo when he/she/it next speaks. 11:51:34 Adamant [~Adamant@97-83-97-117.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 11:51:34 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@97-83-97-117.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 11:51:34 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 11:51:49 minion: memo for drdo: you may have a look at symbol-macrolet ? 11:51:49 Remembered. I'll tell drdo when he/she/it next speaks. 11:55:12 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-66-152.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 11:55:32 emporas [~emporas@athedsl-167153.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 11:58:24 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.59] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:59:14 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:01:27 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.81.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:01:41 lisp is without a doubt the strangest language i've ever learned 12:01:57 *Landr* was only ever used to c-syntax like languages 12:02:12 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 12:02:52 there are at least equally weird non-esoteric languages 12:03:07 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.81.19] has joined #lisp 12:03:28 maybe, but i've never encountered them 12:03:35 i find everything i don't know to be strange 12:04:21 Landr: The longer you do anything with lisp, the more you'll be annoyed at the noisy and excessive decoration of other mainstream languages. 12:05:18 At least I'm experiencing that. 12:05:39 sure, for example the documentation-string thing. ingenious! 12:05:41 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@188.140.2.175] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:06:00 but it'll take time to `click' 12:06:16 antoszka: indeed 12:07:08 c-like languages take time to click as well 12:07:42 Yeah but for most people thats the first kind they learn 12:08:05 and then they forget the experience of learning it 12:08:28 True. 12:09:32 Aiwass [~Aiwass4@188.27.186.124] has joined #lisp 12:11:38 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 12:12:38 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:14:06 -!- Aiwass [~Aiwass4@188.27.186.124] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:14:17 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.81.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:15:26 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.89.162] has joined #lisp 12:16:56 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-136-187.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 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[Remote host closed the connection] 14:19:13 tr3x [~tr3x@178.160.62.75] has joined #lisp 14:19:16 longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has joined #lisp 14:20:09 longshot [~longshot@180.184.9.158] has joined #lisp 14:21:02 tmh [635b0bae@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 14:21:16 Greetings lispers. 14:21:17 Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:21:53 -!- longshot [~longshot@180.184.9.158] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:22:08 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:22:45 longshot [~longshot@180.184.9.158] has joined #lisp 14:22:54 -!- longshot [~longshot@180.184.9.158] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:22:55 -!- dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-102-50.xnet.hr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:23:19 -!- longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:23:32 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-046-254.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 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[Disconnected by services] 14:43:35 morning 14:44:25 -!- cods_ is now known as cods 14:44:47 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:48:44 cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.139.95.133] has joined #lisp 14:49:20 Are there any good CL libs for interfacing with a svn repository? 14:49:39 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 14:50:46 drakma? (-: 14:50:49 *antifuchs* ducks, runs 14:50:51 ... That was plausible, right up until you said "svn repository". 14:50:52 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 14:51:17 I'm not sure what you mean there. but you could conceivably reverse-engineer their http protocol 14:51:36 why you'd do this, you have to explain to a therapist, I suppose (; 14:51:52 ... Why do I have a vague impression that SVN uses WebDAV? 14:52:06 it uses something built on webdav 14:52:13 nyef: it uses DeltaV, which is built on WebDAV 14:52:18 there was quite a bit of grief related to their extending the webdav protocol 14:52:27 ...in ways that make sense only for svn (: 14:53:22 tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has joined #lisp 14:53:30 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:54:21 Saturnation: the subversion website has docs on their C API - you could use CFFI to hook into those. 14:55:21 blackwolf, probably just end out calling out the cli system instead of using the C API. :) 14:55:28 s/out/up 14:56:00 minion: memo for drdo: You mean something like (let ((fresh-list (list 'a 'b (list 'c 'd)))) (destructuring-bind* (a b ((&setf c) d)) fresh-list (setf c 'new-c) fresh-list)) => (A B (NEW-C D))? Will be available in a few weeks :) 14:56:01 Remembered. I'll tell drdo when he/she/it next speaks. 14:56:07 and just wrap that in some more meaningful function calls 14:57:13 Hexstream: star? are you kidding? 14:57:22 stassats`: Why not? 14:57:32 It does a lot more than just &setf, btw. 14:57:46 *stassats`* has a strong aversion towards starred names 14:57:56 stassats`: Feel free to suggest another name. 14:57:59 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-vrfvkuyxmiadvche] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:58:10 I thought of maybe "restructuring-bind", since I have some options to do rewriting and stuff. 14:58:25 But you can use it just for destructuring in many scenarios... 14:58:34 with-destructuring? 14:58:39 bind-structure? 14:58:43 The system name is destructuring-bind-star.. 14:58:45 Saturnation: Why not use a real source control system instead? 14:59:27 Can you explain your aversion towards starred names besides bad googlability? 14:59:38 Hexstream: star names are very unoriginal and everyone can name it so, and then it becomes a nightmare to distinguish between them (see defclass*) 14:59:49 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 15:00:50 stassats`: haha, my overtired brain thought you were talking about astronomy at first (: 15:01:08 Well, I would probably not make something that would be "rightly" called defclass*, and if I did, I wouldn't use that name because I know making a new defclass is a "popular" idea (?) and starring names is also a "popular" idea. 15:01:16 -!- orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:01:29 Hexstream: the star means it does something different / special. how exactly it does that is completely open, and you have to memorize it for every operator 15:01:35 I don't think there are many variations of destructuring-bind around, or am I wrong? 15:01:42 quick: what's the difference between do and do*? 15:01:52 parallel binding! 15:01:59 antifuchs: Easy. It's a bit like LET VS LET*... 15:02:11 ok, full points 15:02:20 well memorized, I would say 15:02:26 no, the difference between LIST and LIST* 15:02:36 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host181-175-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:02:37 exactly. 15:02:44 That's actually in the category of most idiomatic and obvious starred names. 15:02:57 I mean, DO and DO*. 15:03:01 do*, let*, and prog* are in the same vein 15:03:06 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:03:16 if such a thing exists. afaict, the only operators where that idiomaticity holds are let, prog and do (: 15:03:30 and do you difference between ** and ***? 15:03:40 Does that mean IF* isn't idiomatic? 15:03:40 "know" 15:03:43 I agree that destructuring-bind* is NOT an idiomatic use of starring. 15:03:54 pkhuong: I can not comment on that! 15:03:56 ... So far as I'm concerned, there is no difference between DO and DO*: I don't use either of them, and have to look them up in the hyperspec every time I try to read code using them. 15:04:11 nyef: same here ((: 15:04:17 antifuchs: and what would your non-comment be? ;) 15:04:37 Ah, cool. I saw a lot of DO in the SBCL sources and thought it was kind of a favorite of old-timers. 15:04:39 nyef: how can you have IR2 without DO? 15:04:51 Hexstream: it's grown on me. 15:05:00 pkhuong: Like mold? 15:05:03 pkhuong: I can't comment on that either ((: 15:05:04 nyef: what's your definition of a real? 15:05:11 git? 15:05:32 hg? 15:05:39 Saturnation: git is my current preferred source control, yes. 15:05:44 DO is useful for code-golf sometimes 15:05:58 alama [~alama@193.137.143.157] has joined #lisp 15:06:05 I've become a LOOP lover, but there are definitely situations where DO, DO*, DOTIMES, DOLIST, etc. are preferable. 15:06:09 Alright, so I guess it will be restructuring-bind. It's also a bit like: "Destructuring-bind, REmastered!" 15:06:29 that's not much different from postfixing destructuring-bind with a star 15:06:31 *stassats`* doesn't like destructuring-bind name either 15:06:34 pkhuong: IR2 is a representation, and not one without drawbacks, and the primary reason for using DO and COLLECT in the compiler is to avoid potentially-unportable uses of LOOP. 15:06:45 it doesn't say anything about what your operator does apart from that it's vaguely related to destructuring-bind 15:06:50 antifuchs: As far as googlability is concerned, it is. 15:06:55 loke [~elias@bb119-74-214-148.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 15:06:57 the name should describe what the operator does! 15:07:15 not what the programmer was thinking when the op was defined 15:07:20 Well, destructuring-bind* is almost completely backwards compatible with destructuring-bind. 15:07:27 nyef: I meant "how can you *hack*". 15:07:50 There aren't /that/ many uses of DO in there. 15:07:51 And is typically used in situations where destructuring-bind would be used but with some pain. 15:08:04 decomposing-let? 15:08:05 Far more often it's something like DO-BLOCKS-BACKWARDS. 15:08:13 stassats`: YUK. 15:08:18 nyef can't see changing when it's a one man show and I'm familiar with svn at the moment. At some point in the future, will move to git most likely, but until then... 15:08:20 clever-let? 15:08:30 It's about a lot more than binding... 15:08:33 Saturnation: Fair enough. Good luck. 15:08:54 apart-taking-let? 15:09:37 (&whole &optional &doc &decl &rest &body &key &aux &transform &entire &head &tail) 15:10:14 Oops, that's not the full list. And ©, &share, &setf 15:10:15 i don't see &pony 15:10:29 Where's "e and &more? 15:10:32 &derpyhooves (: 15:10:39 &moon-on-a-stick 15:10:46 stassats`: it's there: &entire&head&tail 15:10:49 nyef: Where's your description of their semantics? 15:11:09 Bronsa [~brace@host201-184-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:11:52 there is &more SBCL, it's some bizarre non-cosing variant of &rest 15:11:56 Hexstream: I don't have one for "e, it's from the old-school LispMs. &more is a pythonism, in SBCL it's basically used solely for dealing with &rest lists internally, but in CMUCL it's used in a few other places. 15:12:25 -!- aerique [310225@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:12:26 I need an object-persisting mechanism. Some kind of storage thing where I can dump data by key, and retrieve it again. I don't want nor need a full relational database. What are my options? 15:12:44 stassats`: Well, in destructuring-bind &rest is already non-consing, isn't it... 15:12:44 minion: persistence? 15:12:46 persistence: The end of the page was reached before a definition was found in http://www.cliki.net/persistence 15:12:47 write a hash-table to a file? 15:12:49 Hrm. 15:12:55 minion: cl-store? 15:12:55 cl-store: cl-store serializes and deserializes Common Lisp objects to and from streams. http://www.cliki.net/cl-store 15:13:03 -!- Koven is now known as Kovensky 15:13:23 minion: rucksack? 15:13:23 rucksack: Rucksack is a persistence library for Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/rucksack 15:13:26 dmiles [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:36 stassats`: yep. I've been thinking of that, although I'd prefer it if I didn't ave to rewrite the entire file for each write. Something like DBM for Lisp, is what I need I suppose 15:13:39 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:14:01 minon: elephant? 15:14:07 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host201-184-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 15:14:12 (Do I mean elephant?) 15:14:13 <_8david> loke: I haven't had those requirements in Lisp yet, but I like both SQLite and hu.dwim.perec, so I'd probably use those two in combination 15:14:16 minion: elephant? 15:14:17 elephant: Elephant is a LLGPLed portable object database based on Sleepycat (Berkeley DB) or relational databases. http://www.cliki.net/elephant 15:14:29 rucksack looks promising 15:14:39 ah, and elephant too. 15:14:40 Thanks guys 15:14:40 There's also the roll-your-own method. 15:14:42 gbbopen? 15:14:45 i'd write my own persistence solution (well, i did actually) 15:14:47 minion: gbbopen 15:14:47 gbbopen: GBBopen is a high-performance open source distributed systems framework based on the concepts that were explored and refined in the UMass Generic Blackboard system and the commercial GBB product. http://www.cliki.net/gbbopen 15:14:51 dmiles [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:06 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-110-228.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:15:11 <_8david> (even without perec, I'd always prefer SQLite over Berkeley DB) 15:15:17 stassats`: well, I considered it too. However, for this job I have a very limited number of available man-hours to finish a very specific task. 15:15:21 minion: stassats-storage? 15:15:21 stassats-storage: stassats-storage is a CLOS ObjectStore with disk and PostgreSQL backends. http://www.cliki.net/stassats-storage 15:15:32 someone even created a page for it 15:15:35 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:15:42 although the description is incorrect 15:15:57 How badly incorrect? 15:15:58 (and no, it's not ready for prime-time) 15:16:24 it has no working PostgreSQL backend 15:16:25 _8david: ping 15:16:35 This thing will run in production at a bank, so I'd prefer soemthing that is slightly production-worthy :-) 15:16:42 ne1 doing anything for St. Patties? 15:16:58 er.. wrong # :/ 15:16:59 j_king: writing clear english on a channel where it's on topic. 15:17:01 fe[nl]ix: Hey, need more solaris tests? 15:17:13 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:28 rtoym: maybe in a few minutes 15:17:32 nyef: Does "e actually exist?... 15:17:39 ne1? someone is playing chess? 15:17:43 Hexstream: on some older lisps. 15:17:44 Hexstream: As I said, it's some early LispM thing. 15:17:46 pkhuong: sorry, hasty flick of the keys. 15:18:06 That doesn't give me a clue what the semantics of it are... 15:18:32 prevents evaluation of arguments? 15:18:41 Yeah, basically. 15:18:56 You get passed the argument as a form, not as the value of the form. 15:18:56 Can you give a usage example? I'm not following. 15:19:28 google for "\""e\" lisp". 15:19:45 Ah, so THAT's how to google that ungooglable thing... 15:19:46 (defun foo ("e argument) (print argument)) (foo (+ 3 4)) would print "(+ 3 4)", not "9". 15:19:53 <_8david> fe[nl]ix: I'm here 15:20:29 entropax [~entropi@nat/intel/x-paanhvivzngsnnvl] has joined #lisp 15:20:30 When (+ 3 4) ever print 9 15:20:31 ? 15:20:34 That's insanity. 15:20:47 tmh: Smalltalk joke, from the ST-80 green book. 15:21:09 Hexstream: Yes. Yes, it is. 15:21:11 fexprs! :-o 15:21:15 Ah, okay. 15:21:23 waaait. what does the \" do? 15:21:46 foom: I think that's just one more layer of quoting 15:21:53 I think it doesn't do anything at all 15:21:56 besides, aren't you a googler by now? (; 15:21:58 "e lisp works just fine 15:22:02 antifuchs: nope 15:22:07 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:22:10 Gril---18 [~X@85.110.93.215] has joined #lisp 15:22:25 still "pending regulatory approval" 15:22:27 -!- Gril---18 [~X@85.110.93.215] has quit [Killed (idoru (Spam is off topic on freenode.))] 15:22:28 pkhuong suggested to google for "x y z", instructing us to ~A that string into the google search field (: 15:22:30 without the quotes around ""e", you also match "... & quote" 15:22:51 foom: ah, I'm sure they'll teach you all the secrets once the deal goes through! (: 15:24:27 and googlers will learn Lisp? 15:24:53 _8david: I have a few issues with 3 commits 15:25:08 Ok, so insanity aside, "e doesn't really make sense at all in a context like destructuring-bind, since the argument is necessarily completely evaluated. Anyway, 15 lambda keywords ought to be enough for anyone. 15:25:39 Yuuhi [benni@p5483C5B9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:25:47 -!- Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:25:52 _8david: 3459cc8: lfp contains no timespec_t, so I'm puzzled that you replace struct timespec with that 15:26:27 Hexstream: it could figure out where the list came from and destructure the components, keeping some unevaluated. :) 15:26:47 -!- astoon_ [~astoon@178-16-146-17.obit.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:27:09 -!- astoon [~astoon@178-16-146-17.obit.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:27:21 Yeah, I could make a full fucking code walker instead of a really simple and sane solution. ;P 15:28:24 Implement %app for SBCL instead. 15:28:44 -!- tr3x [~tr3x@178.160.62.75] has quit [Quit: bye] 15:28:59 okay, so, how do you google %app? 15:29:22 Awesome, a DSL for destructuring. I foresee "Fame & Glory". 15:30:03 foom: ok, good one. A racket/PLT scheme thing. 15:30:09 I foresee flame and gory. 15:30:23 (I think I stole that one from stassats) 15:30:45 and i thought it looked familiar 15:31:21 flame and gory? 15:31:24 ... aren't destructuring lambda lists -already- a DSL for destructuring? 15:31:28 -!- Kruppe [~user@134.117.254.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:31:36 -!- seangrove [~user@c-98-234-242-172.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:31:55 That's kinda what I thought... 15:32:22 Hadn't thought of it like that, so you're just extending it at bit? 15:32:45 -!- Ragnaroek [~Adium@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:33:08 Ragnaroek [~Adium@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 15:33:11 tmh: Yeah, "a bit". 15:33:47 -!- redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:33:51 can it destructure a number in a string into a NUMBER? 15:33:59 Typing fail. I'm even on my second cup of coffee. I think it may be time to go intravenous. 15:34:07 Well, there aren't that many new features, but there are some interactions between them that are logical but perhaps not self-obvious at first sight. So if you do something really complicated it might take some getting used to, perhaps. 15:35:00 My destructuring-bind* (or whatever it ends up being called) is a bit scary and perhaps bloated... but it's SELF-CONSCIOUSLY so, so it's okay. After seeing continued wide adoption of LOOP, I kinda get the idea that people don't mind scary things if it gives them a ton of additional power. 15:35:17 Hexstream: Where can I see this offensive code? 15:35:31 tmh: Should be available in a few weeks. 15:35:47 Hexstream: when people try and bloat destructuring-bind up, they usually end up with a pattern matcher. 15:35:49 "... scary things if it gives them a ton of additional power." Get behind me, Satan! 15:36:21 superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.148] has joined #lisp 15:36:40 <_8david> fe[nl]ix: you're, right. I must have been fixing an issue that I created myself. Leaving out that commit still builds. 15:36:59 <_8david> what are the other two issues? 15:37:03 pkhuong: I don't understand... destructuring-bind IS a pattern matcher... 15:37:09 Isn't it?... 15:37:10 When I think I have a need for crazy, complicated, destructuring, it's usually time to review my data structures and to review the flow of my code. 15:37:25 -!- BeniaminQ [~quassel@host-195-88-115-34.hypernet.biz.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:37:31 Hexstream: what about "&email-user user &email-host host"? 15:37:46 _8david: 240cfab: on SunOS _POSIX_NAME_MAX is 14 - which is AFAIK the minimum POSIX requirement 15:37:46 Got some some stuff to take care of, I'll be back. 15:38:00 I like "&save-this-for-later-in-case-we-need-it-or-not". 15:38:03 and also destructuring dates 15:38:10 _8david: but the OS can certainly create files with longer names, so using _POSIX_NAME_MAX is incorrect 15:38:27 Hexstream: but please take at the advantages iterate provides over loop ... perhaps there's a lesson there to be learned 15:38:33 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-050-161.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:38:38 (destructuring HTTP protocol would probably be too much) 15:38:45 *look* at the advantages 15:39:26 _8david: rtoym said that getconf NAME_MAX actually works, so it must surely be defined in some header 15:44:06 -!- gz` [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:45:01 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:45:14 <_8david> fe[nl]ix: ok. I don't think NAME_MAX is defined as a header constant. But it's most likely available as a return value from pathconf. Let me try that. 15:45:16 spacemanaki [~spacemana@rrcs-184-74-221-162.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:45:59 _8david: we could use that 15:46:15 -!- Davsebamse [~das@94.127.50.104] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:47:18 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:23 hello, can someone point me in the right direction towards understanding what James Gosling meant last month when he wrote: "This is one of those times where I miss Lisp macros: the ability to rip open a function and do wild things like symbolic differentiation was wonderful." ? 15:48:28 it was here: http://nighthacks.com/roller/jag/entry/equations_and_methods 15:48:43 I'm familiar with Common Lisp style macros, but I've never seen something like the introspection he's talking about 15:49:10 <_8david> fe[nl]ix: okay; I've rebased my branch accordingly. Now down to 3 commits relative to master. 15:49:28 yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 15:49:37 <_8david> fe[nl]ix: BTW, we can leave out the __attribute__ change if we don't care about cc issuing a warning about it. It's not an error after all. 15:50:06 not an error ? good 15:50:18 <_8david> 4144d825 15:50:59 spacemanaki: What he wants to do is provide 1 function to his implementation of Newton's method, then perform symbolic differentiation to get the derivative. 15:51:34 tmh: yes I got that, but what I wasn't understanding was how that's accomplished with macros 15:51:57 spacemanaki: without explicit support (but, then again, see ), you have to wrap function definitions with your macro. 15:52:06 spacemanaki: The argument isn't a reference to the function, it's the actual form expressing the function. 15:52:27 So it's not post hoc introspection, but regular macro-processing of a function's body. 15:52:33 ok, that's kind of what I thought it would be 15:53:02 there's no general way to "rip open a function" though? 15:53:25 rip open a function 15:53:27 _8david: please try that change in a mini-program. I want to be sure that it returns the actual maximum and not 14: pathconf("/", _PC_NAME_MAX) 15:53:28 spacemanaki: I don't know about that, I've only been using Lisp for 5 years. 15:53:35 no standard way. 15:53:36 fe[nl]ix: There's a NAME_MAX (= 14) in limits.h. But are you really looking for MAXNAMELEN? 15:54:09 tmh: well that's a good bit longer than I have... 15:54:20 rtoym: they're both defined ? 15:54:30 pkhuong: ok, thanks for the link! 15:54:52 pkhuong: That link is borken for me. 15:55:52 pkhuong: NM, I googled it. 15:56:11 fe[nl]ix: NAME_MAX is in limits.h. MAXNAMELEN is in sys/param.h (= 256) 15:56:45 tmh: must be the IPv6 transition ;) 15:56:46 I'm confused 15:57:46 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.66.60] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:57:48 pkhuong: Hah! What transition. There must be at least 3 IPv4 addresses left, no hurry. 15:58:36 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-112-207.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 16:00:16 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:00:40 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:00:57 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:01:49 fe[nl]ix: Oh, sorry. The NAME_MAX in limits.h is in a comment. 16:02:05 BeniaminQ [~quassel@host-195-88-115-34.hypernet.biz.pl] has joined #lisp 16:02:24 GeneralMaximus [~general@122.162.136.24] has joined #lisp 16:03:35 rtoym: man pathconf(Debian's) says that the macros represent the minimum values, and that (f)pathconf are required to get the actual limits 16:05:07 yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 16:06:10 flip214: I know enough about Iterate to know that: 1. It's a big improvement over LOOP and 2. it shares most of its limitations. 16:07:04 well, the first improvement to note is that works better with automatic indentation, by using a few more parens 16:07:15 that it's extendable is a nice bonus point, IMO 16:07:37 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-42-2.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:37 No shit ;P 16:07:48 lichtblau pasted "pathconf by mountpoint" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120558 16:07:49 -!- hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:08:08 I've heard that the extensibility is not as well documented as it could be, however. 16:08:14 hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:33 -!- Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:08:39 _8david: very nice :) 16:09:43 ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 16:09:51 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-149-75.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:09:53 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 16:10:25 And from what I understand, it's using some special code-walking tricks to implement some of its built-in clauses (this caused some problems in the past), which makes me think the core clauses are "special" and you couldn't write them yourself with the public extensibility interface, which seems like a pretty "fundamental" problem to me. 16:10:28 Hexstream: the gist of my rambling is that please keep the input in some structured form - but that should be easy for destructuring-bind-derivates 16:10:38 -!- longshot [~longshot@180.184.9.158] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:10:40 -!- Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:10:59 longshot [~longshot@216.131.74.24] has joined #lisp 16:11:50 destructuring-bind* is, at least conceptually, a pretty straightforward extension to destructuring-bind. It's not using special obnoxious syntactic tricks and stuff. 16:11:51 Well, I already implemented an own keyword for a driver ... and that wasn't really a problem 16:12:06 is there something to read already? 16:12:15 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.67.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:12:34 Apart from what I said, no. 16:13:09 Never mind ... I'm busy enough, and can wait a few weeks 16:13:12 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.79.54] has joined #lisp 16:13:37 _8david: for curiosity, try the same with _PC_PATH_MAX 16:13:53 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 16:13:53 gz [~gz@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:27 Really I should just keep this kind of stuff to myself until it's released, but I see other people looking for something where my solution (or "solution") provides exactly what they need, and I get kinda excited. It gives me a sense of purpose. And now I learned that destructuring-bind* may not be an appropriate name, so it was well worth talking about it ;) 16:14:51 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-5-180.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:14:58 daniel__1 [~daniel@p5082B615.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:10 -!- BeniaminQ [~quassel@host-195-88-115-34.hypernet.biz.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:16:16 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.63.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:17:31 <_8david> fe[nl]ix: all 1024 16:17:49 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 16:17:51 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.63.246] has joined #lisp 16:18:04 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082A2E1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:18:07 interesting 16:18:18 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 16:18:30 maybe that's why sun introduced openat() & co. 16:18:58 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.232.125] has joined #lisp 16:19:41 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:20:01 _8david: lfp also uses PATH_MAX in several places. what's its value ? should probably be in sys/limits.h or thereabouts 16:21:14 -!- cods [~cods@tuxee.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:21:14 cods [~cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has joined #lisp 16:22:04 -!- akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-123-094.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:22:16 akimbo [~user@cpe-024-163-123-094.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:22:38 muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:23:15 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.79.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:24:29 lemoinem [~swoog@196-73-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 16:24:53 <_8david> 1024, too 16:26:37 tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:25 cool 16:29:07 -!- gz [~gz@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 16:29:12 _8david: pushed 16:30:59 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw80ffc152.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:32:55 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.207.45] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 16:33:01 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:07 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:33:39 fe[nl]ix: one argument for forking the image-reading libraries into opticl is that then one could whack on them to make them a bit more performant 16:33:48 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:19 slyrus: isn't that what I said - integration ? 16:34:36 well, yes, that's one aspect of integration 16:34:39 maybe I was a little too dense :D 16:36:07 -!- sellout1 [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:36:32 the lack of performance hadn't really bothered me before, but reading png's, for instance, seems to be a lot slower than it needs to be 16:37:53 sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:11 <_8david> fe[nl]ix: cool, builds out of the box. (Ignore the bogus termios commit, please.) 16:38:19 -!- sellout is now known as Guest95313 16:38:21 slyrus: I wonder if chipz is the bottleneck. 16:38:29 slyrus: improving chipz would make a lot of things nicer. 16:38:39 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@196-73-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:39:35 ah, I see. 16:39:50 It might not be - I haven't profiled. 16:42:11 -!- Guest95313 [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:42:24 -!- Ragnaroek [~Adium@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:43:56 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:44:12 milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw80ffc152.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 16:45:48 lemoinem [~swoog@249-73-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:56 Bronsa [~brace@host201-184-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:47:45 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host201-184-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 16:48:03 Bronsa [~brace@host201-184-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:49:31 -!- wim` [~user@ipleiden.intellimagic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:51:09 -!- superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.148] has quit [Quit: superflit] 16:52:43 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:53:09 astoon_ [~astoon@178-16-146-17.obit.ru] has joined #lisp 16:53:52 astoon [~astoon@178-16-146-17.obit.ru] has joined #lisp 16:55:24 -!- jweiss is now known as jweiss-lunch 16:55:27 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:55:31 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@249-73-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:56:47 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.86.71] has joined #lisp 16:57:21 pnq [~nick@AC820376.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 16:58:29 Gmind [~Gmind@113.190.186.27] has joined #lisp 17:00:03 hi lisper ! 17:00:23 let me know if anyone here is human or alive :D 17:01:03 It's been about 20 minutes since the last time anyone said anything in channel. 17:01:04 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:01:14 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:01:17 And this morning seemed to be unusually quiet, too. 17:01:38 benny [~benny@i577A3D2B.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:02:50 =.=! 17:02:52 mattrepl [~mattrepl@204.14.152.118] has joined #lisp 17:03:23 is that because of tsunami or earth quake in JP ? 17:04:00 Might be the nuclear plant troubles they've been having. 17:04:15 superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.148] has joined #lisp 17:04:26 But, really, I'm not prepared to speculate on causes. It could be as simple as everyone actually trying to get some work done. 17:04:27 -!- rononovski_ [~rononovsk@bzq-79-182-184-227.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:04:37 Gmind: different timezones.. 17:04:53 :)) 17:04:59 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:05:06 Just joking around 17:05:08 in europe, people might be now commuting home or trying to recover with their SOs 17:05:53 in western russia, it might be time to either drink or get frisky, so... ^_- 17:06:15 Davsebamse [~davse@gate.ipvision.dk] has joined #lisp 17:06:19 in #IRC , I know time zone is an important role that decide who I can talk with 17:06:36 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.86.71] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:06:48 8-> nice to hear how the world is living :P 17:07:05 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.81.82] has joined #lisp 17:07:15 and of course japan has a lot of other problems at the moment 17:07:41 prayfor japan 17:08:06 I think there will be more disasters till the end of 2012 17:08:20 I'd rather send them UAVs capable of dropping water onto the plant 17:08:36 so bad to think about what I can do with a laptop and an impl of CL :)) 17:08:37 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:12 They are trying to cool down that plant by sea water 17:09:31 and cooling chemistry too 17:10:22 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-74-247.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 17:10:24 well, units 1-4 will probably end up scrapped after this 17:10:29 time for iron man to get into action 17:10:35 -!- spacemanaki [~spacemana@rrcs-184-74-221-162.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:10:51 spacemanaki [~spacemana@rrcs-184-74-221-162.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:11:30 *Gmind* is afraid that iron man will be infected by nuclear radioactive too =) 17:12:14 (:| sorry for my fantasy... 17:12:45 bed time now ... Good Night, Lispers |-) 17:12:51 -!- Gmind [~Gmind@113.190.186.27] has left #lisp 17:12:58 'night 17:13:41 argiopeweb [~elliot@155.31.170.208] has joined #lisp 17:17:37 -!- greaver_ [~jo@212.88.117.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:17:44 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 17:18:55 -!- silenius [~silenus@p4FC22043.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:19:51 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:20:25 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-123.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:21:31 -!- ckelly [~ckelly@biop230.leidenuniv.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:21:34 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:21:35 -!- billitch [~billitch@78.251.40.225] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:21:59 billitch [~billitch@78.251.40.225] has joined #lisp 17:22:01 -!- spacemanaki [~spacemana@rrcs-184-74-221-162.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: spacemanaki] 17:23:33 eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 17:24:30 -!- pnq [~nick@AC820376.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:25:59 on the chance of speaking heretical words, is it possible/ever done to create macros that create macros? 17:26:11 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.33.219.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:26:19 sure. 17:26:51 -!- billitch [~billitch@78.251.40.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:27:59 sweet 17:28:11 (defmacro test (x) `(defmacro ,x (y) `(cons 5 ,y))) 17:28:47 Actually, ONCE-ONLY is the sort of macro used to help create other macros, though not as directly as that. 17:29:14 yes, I expected it'd give me complaints about which part of the macro is the second-level macro 17:29:59 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.81.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:30:14 Meh, that's just the double-backquote speaking. 17:30:54 double... quote? 17:30:58 *Landr* tries that 17:31:12 ... woah 17:31:16 -!- ldh [~ldh@static-217-37.vpn.wisc.edu] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 17:31:21 lemoinem [~swoog@95-76-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:27 see, this should've been obvious to me, but it isn't 17:32:21 -!- argiopeweb [~elliot@155.31.170.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:33:45 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755ec7.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:39 kushal [~kdas@114.143.166.128] has joined #lisp 17:35:40 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.166.128] has quit [Changing host] 17:35:40 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 17:37:57 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:39:38 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:40:14 gz` [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 17:40:32 spacebat: Sorry, but I cannot sympathize with Gosling. He brought his own doom upon himself all alone. 17:41:02 s/spacebat/spacemanaki/ 17:41:23 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:28 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:41:47 paul0 [~paul0@187.58.227.240] has joined #lisp 17:42:15 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:42:19 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:42:54 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 17:43:07 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:12 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:43:48 pjb: ? 17:44:02 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:08 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:44:16 Hello Lispers! 17:44:25 hi 17:45:01 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:24 youguy [~youguy@170.Red-88-12-82.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:57 slyrus: I was responding to <16:48:04> hello, can someone point me in the right direction towards understanding what James Gosling meant last month when he wrote: "This is one of those times where I miss Lisp macros: the ability to rip open a function and do wild things like symbolic differentiation was wonderful." ? 17:46:10 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@pc-212-51-212-230.p.lodz.pl] has quit [Quit: bye papa] 17:46:13 In his place, I wouldn't dare write such a thing. 17:46:52 I've a question about asdf. Does ASDF:FIND-SYSTEM find any system in *CENTRAL-REGISTRY* or only loaded systems. Likewise for ASDF:SYSTEM-SOURCE-DIRECTORY? 17:46:54 well, actually, the JVM doesn't seem too bad for that sort of work. 17:47:14 e.g. (asdf:system-source-directory (asdf:find-system :)) 17:47:20 Introspect on bytecode instead of source code. 17:47:50 pkhuong: yes. you can implement solutions to all the problems for which lisp has a trivial solution in other environment. Only it will never be simple. Far from it. 17:48:45 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-vtwudedggyvyewzb] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:49:22 pjb: how is the lisp solution simple? 17:49:41 Perhaps I'm wrong considering what held lisp back was slow computers and small memories. It might well be the contrary. Once computers acquired more speed and more memory, people could fill them with complex solutions to problems that only lisp could solve in slower and smaller computers. 17:49:58 pkhuong: because it works on the source of the expressions, instead of having to deal with object code. 17:50:36 urandom__ [~user@p548A5D11.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:53 pkhuong: because you can deal with a symbolic expression, (a high level mathematical expression), instead of dealing with implementation details, memory management, registers, calling conventions, etc. 17:51:44 You have to either go through an EDSL, a codewalker or have the users explicitly go through your operators. 17:52:09 In any case, it sounds silly, for the guy who spend the last twenty years of making Java and promoting it, to post a blog saying basically "Duh, Lisp, which I knew, was better, I miss it, boo hoo!". 17:52:20 I would only dare call the last, and *maybe* the first approach simple. 17:52:42 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:53:58 -!- Jabberwockey [~quassel@83.151.30.10] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 17:54:02 Jabberwockey [~quassel@83.151.30.10] has joined #lisp 17:56:20 -!- youguy [~youguy@170.Red-88-12-82.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 17:57:23 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:57:44 well, Gosling was talking about symbolic differentiation, which you won't be able to do on just any function anyway. It's relatively easy to do in Lisp as long as you stick to a restricted form 17:58:40 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 17:59:48 ZabaQ1 [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:51 pjb: That seems to be a rather torturous extrapolation from what he said. 18:00:52 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Client Quit] 18:01:02 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw80ffc152.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:01:13 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:02:34 -!- GeneralMaximus [~general@122.162.136.24] has left #lisp 18:03:33 milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw80ffc152.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 18:11:55 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-5-180.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 18:13:00 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-pnpwjmzidazyqbjs] has joined #lisp 18:14:44 -!- Saturnation [~dsouth@pool-70-109-179-124.burl.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:15:20 milanj [~milanj_@109-92-126-186.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 18:15:49 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-pnpwjmzidazyqbjs] has quit [Client Quit] 18:16:25 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:27 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:21:56 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:22:29 ckelly [~ckelly@microgravity.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 18:24:28 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:25:49 lambda [lambda@c-76-118-155-244.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:04 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-53-100.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:26:09 This should work, right? (let ((test 'value)) (prog1 test (locally (declare (ignore test)) 'some-really-big-body-not-using-test))) SBCL says: " caught STYLE-WARNING: declaring unknown variable TEST to be ignored". From my understanding, IGNORE is a free declaration, not a bound declaration, and affects only references. 18:26:57 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:41 -!- paul0 [~paul0@187.58.227.240] has quit [Quit: paul0] 18:28:02 meandi [~meandi@dyndsl-178-142-060-197.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #lisp 18:31:51 adobriyan [~ad@vulture2-nat-42.telecom.by] has joined #lisp 18:33:01 Guess I should just submit a bug report and see what happens. 18:33:14 Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:36:08 -!- waaaaaargh_ [~waaaaargh@agsb-5d87f83e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:36:20 tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has joined #lisp 18:40:01 -!- lanthan [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:40:41 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 18:41:22 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-53-100.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:43:02 -!- emporas [~emporas@athedsl-167153.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:44:54 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host201-184-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:45:33 Bronsa [~brace@host201-184-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:46:41 pjb, you there? 18:47:23 -!- Atomsk [ace4016@adsl-32-14-244.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:48:00 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 18:50:40 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-53-100.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:50:48 mathrick [~mathrick@90-156-22-132.internetia.net.pl] has joined #lisp 18:50:55 vilsonvieira [~vilson@h08100.ifsc.usp.br] has joined #lisp 18:52:08 HG` [~HG@dslb-188-109-205-107.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:29 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@95-76-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:54:33 Adamant [~Adamant@97-83-97-117.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:54:33 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@97-83-97-117.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 18:54:33 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 18:55:17 Edisto [~IceChat7@c-67-169-114-235.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:54 what might be some of the problems if my genetic algorithm is off by a few numbers? 18:56:10 do i need a lower mutation or higher crossover or what 18:56:13 or better fitness 18:56:31 -!- lambda [lambda@c-76-118-155-244.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:57:13 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-32-14-244.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:06 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.92.250] has joined #lisp 18:58:18 ldh [~ldh@static-217-37.vpn.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 19:01:27 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:02:23 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-rxymhfdcdhvjwuwk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:07:18 Ragnaroek [~Adium@p5B0C79AE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:48 mon_key pasted "preempting setf methods on class allocated slots with :around" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120566 19:08:04 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.139.95.133] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.15/20110303024726]] 19:08:45 Anyone care to comment on whether I'm doing this somewhat sanely? 19:09:00 -!- Davsebamse [~davse@gate.ipvision.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:10:21 lambda [lambda@c-76-118-155-244.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:55 code does not make sense 19:11:03 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host201-184-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:11:31 Bronsa [~brace@host201-184-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:12:57 Howso? FWIW sans the system-path generics/methods I've been using it for a weeks now... 19:14:07 for example, the system-path gf takes one parameter, but the defmethod takes two 19:15:02 the methods for system-base-path and (setf system-base-path) are redundant, as they are generated by the :accessor option 19:15:16 there is a setf/gf on system-path 19:16:00 adeht: wholly redundant? 19:16:29 the around method for (setf system-path) is likely to be a no-op, except it returns the value of system-path slot (which is violating setf tradition) 19:17:32 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@124-168-76-146.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:18:18 So if wrapped in a (progn (setf ...) t) would it still be so? 19:18:35 your intention to "preempt" is not clear to me, and may be a symptom of bad design 19:19:29 mon_key: setf functions are expected to return their first argument 19:19:49 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host201-184-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:20:09 Bronsa [~brace@host201-184-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:20:12 Mmm... setf functions return their first argument, defsetfs return their last argument, and setf-expanders only get more complex. 19:20:15 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:20:37 tr3x [~tr3x@93-138-106-167.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 19:21:43 So, (avoiding FTM whether this is bad design) would returning PATH at least not entirely violate the setf protocol? 19:22:30 why does it need to be an around method 19:23:07 ah, subclasses of system-path 19:23:10 Any specializer on system-path will get :arounded 19:24:27 how come (setq stack '(a b c)) (pop stack) works, but (pop '(a b c)) gives me "Eval: undefined function A" ? 19:24:29 yes, do nothing but return path 19:24:45 tr3x: the argument to POP needs to be a place 19:25:15 tr3x: in your case, POP doesn't change any list, it just changes the binding of STACK 19:25:29 I see, thanks 19:25:48 I'm rather surprised that POP doesn't complain that there's no SETF method defined QUOTE. 19:25:58 adeht: Thanx for your consideration. So, is the better design to simply defvar a *system-path*? :) 19:26:12 mon_key: I don't have enough context :) 19:26:56 Maybe I'll post more in a few weeks once the whole thing is hopelessly wedged :) 19:27:32 then you can have first dibs at the inevitable "I told you so" :P 19:29:25 mon_key: what are you working on anyway? 19:30:57 (setq stack '(1 2 3 4)). is there a better/shorter way to get '((1 2) (3 4)) then (loop while stack collecting (list (pop stack) (pop stack))) 19:31:08 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:32:57 -!- meandi [~meandi@dyndsl-178-142-060-197.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:33:26 meandi [~meandi@dyndsl-178-142-060-197.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #lisp 19:34:27 tr3x: looks good to me, and easily generalized for arbitrarily-sized groups 19:36:08 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:36:20 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-184-234.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:36:37 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:37:34 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:13 -!- alama [~alama@193.137.143.157] has quit [Quit: alama] 19:38:39 tr3x: (loop for (x y) on list by #'cddr collect (list x y))? 19:38:53 darn! too slow. 19:38:53 killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 19:39:02 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-152-248.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:39:21 :) thanks. I tried to use (x y) but couldn't get it to work 19:39:26 wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:29 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-123.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:40:27 adeht: converting an old RDBMS (oriented for website) into something lispy. Right now i'm parsing/extracting/normalizing some really poorly abstracted MySql data via XML dumps. The dumps are converted to per table per record files each tagged with UUIDs. Its a multipass process cleaning up and lispizing all the junk from the sql tables into something I intend to eventually be in lisp-persistable form. Ideally I never let SQL have its 19:40:27 dirty hands on my data again! 19:41:14 nah, SQL is fine... MySQL 3.23 coupled with "PHP in 24 hours"... now that's bad 19:43:54 p_l|backup: yes well. MySQL 4.x coupled with PHP circa Fedora 4 coupled with really bad character encoding issues, coupled with multiple Unix<-->Windows transmutations coupled with some non insignificant bit-rot... is really bad :) 19:44:11 Soulman1 [~knute@250.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:44:13 nyahahahaha 19:44:26 I remember the horrors of moving data between MySQL instances 19:45:46 The current data was recovered from a Mysql hotcopy on a Slackware 12 box... IOW using Perl to get at Mysql binary on a non UTF-8 capable system. 19:46:00 after that one project, I never touched MySQL for any db I had to create... 19:48:23 p_l|backup: Not to mention that since the 4.x days MySQL has changed hands with Sun/Oracle and neither really ha[sd] any intention of maintaining what is by most many accounts a dog of an RDBMS... 19:50:25 anyone know how to make a genetic algorithm more effecient if its off by 1 or 2 numbers at times? 19:51:53 mon_key: well, it got less crappy later on, apparently Oracle made them reconsider the *R* in RDBMS, something that they completely disregarded back in 3.x 19:53:02 s7nf [~blaz@lk.84.20.245.125.dc.cable.static.lj-kabel.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:48 -!- koning_robot [~user@s5597d50c.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:59:11 awesome-o [~anonymous@208.74.177.139.static.etheric.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:20 -!- s7nf [~blaz@lk.84.20.245.125.dc.cable.static.lj-kabel.net] has left #lisp 19:59:53 p_l|backup: howso? 20:01:59 -!- astoon [~astoon@178-16-146-17.obit.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:02:03 -!- astoon_ [~astoon@178-16-146-17.obit.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:02:57 -!- Edisto [~IceChat7@c-67-169-114-235.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Easy as 3.14159265358979323846...] 20:03:32 mon_key: you know the importance of foreign keys, triggers etc in ensuring proper behaviour of database? 20:04:03 gabnet [~gabnet@86.67.23.234] has joined #lisp 20:04:12 -!- Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:04:32 koning_robot [~user@s5597d50c.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #lisp 20:05:54 p_l|backup: foreign keys and triggers and so on predate the Oracle takeover 20:05:55 waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-5d87f83e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:04 (in MySQL, that is) 20:06:15 p_l|backup: I guess...? 20:06:27 MySQL 5.x mostly did all normal SQL stuff 20:06:37 though some of it only as a tick on the feature sheet and not for real use 20:06:58 (for a while most types of subqueries broke the optimiser, for instance) 20:07:06 rsynnott: maybe... when did they take over? Cause 3.23 manual stated that foreign keys are ignored by MySQL (there were no triggers as well, iirc), and that they are completely uninterested in maintaining something relevant only to fancy graphs and ODBC applications 20:07:42 the acquisition process started in 2009 20:07:42 the main drawback of MySQL is that it wasn't written in Lisp initially 20:07:56 stassats`: as opposed to postgers? 20:08:01 mon_key: yes 20:08:09 -!- tr3x [~tr3x@93-138-106-167.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:08:28 MySQL 5.0 came out in 2005 20:08:34 and 5.1 in 2008 20:08:50 euangelion [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:08:51 people kept _using_ 3.x and 4.x for a very long time, tho 20:08:51 I was working on a native MySQL client in elisp for a while, using the MySQL C code as a guide because the documentation was outdated. The more I dug into the MySQL client, the less I ever wanted to use that code again. And I haven't. 20:08:56 *rsynnott* blames debian 20:09:34 tmh: careful! MySQL AB used to try to claim that copying the wire protocol from their client would cause spreading of GPL 20:09:43 *rsynnott* has no idea how they thought that waas meant to work 20:10:09 rsynnott: It's worse than that: They used to claim that using their wire protocol /documentation/ would cause spreading of GPL. 20:10:10 rsynnott: No a problem! 20:10:20 s/No/Not 20:10:38 -!- waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-5d87f83e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:10:56 That explains why the C client was so poorly written, to motivate people not to read it. 20:10:56 of course the client used to be LGPL, but apparently that wasn't sufficiently inconvenient 20:11:13 *rsynnott* wonders has anyone ever made that GPL/proprietary bait and switch thing work 20:11:33 silenius [~silenus@p4FC22F65.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:02 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-184-234.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:13:33 stassats`: do you say that postgres is written in Lisp? 20:13:42 ehu: no 20:13:46 oh. 20:13:47 ok. 20:14:28 it was converted from Lisp to C by some tool at some point in the past because lisp was too slow and memory hungry 20:14:46 3Mb of RAM! 20:14:59 "of core" actually 20:15:17 that fits into L3 cache 20:15:24 ah. 20:15:37 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-184-234.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:15:43 but that doesn't necessarily result in a good wire protocol. 20:15:56 IIRC, back then it was 3Mb of core on a sparcstation that had 4Mb of RAM 20:15:58 -!- oconnore [~eric@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:16:28 postmodern is a pretty good reason to use postgres too 20:18:13 fe[nl]ix: that would have been more of a problem ;) 20:18:34 similarly, objective C only exists due to memory constraints; it was designed as a cheap fake smalltalk 20:18:53 a lot of modern stuff has its routes in old no-longer-relevant resource limitations 20:18:53 rsynnott: and easy integration with C 20:19:04 that too 20:19:18 while C was itself a "portable alternative to macro assemblers with familiar syntax" 20:21:00 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 20:23:56 Ragnaroek1 [~Adium@p5B0C79AE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:43 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host201-184-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:28:18 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 20:28:51 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@fredri.cc] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:30:24 Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:30:26 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 20:31:23 enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-76-245-62-252.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:14 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:34:20 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:36:06 -!- Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:36:51 -!- HG` [~HG@dslb-188-109-205-107.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:38:56 -!- tty234 [telex@anapnea.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:40:51 oconnore [~eric@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:14 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 20:48:25 youguy [~youguy@64.Red-88-1-98.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:08 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:51:59 youguy_ [~youguy@64.Red-88-1-98.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:22 -!- youguy [~youguy@64.Red-88-1-98.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:53:45 Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:54:55 wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:23 -!- gabnet [~gabnet@86.67.23.234] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 20:57:31 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.17.75] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:58:43 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:00:01 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:00:10 francogrex [~user@109.130.86.132] has joined #lisp 21:02:00 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 21:02:14 -!- youguy_ [~youguy@64.Red-88-1-98.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:04:59 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-49-13-243.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:05:05 Deltafire [~chris@82-71-44-155.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:05:20 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.86.132] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:05:30 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:06:03 -!- longshot [~longshot@216.131.74.24] has quit [Quit: longshot] 21:06:36 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-53-100.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:06:41 -!- entropax [~entropi@nat/intel/x-paanhvivzngsnnvl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:06:44 longshot [~longshot@216.131.74.24] has joined #lisp 21:07:44 -!- longshot [~longshot@216.131.74.24] has quit [Client Quit] 21:08:46 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 21:09:25 kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:13:15 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-53-100.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:18:41 random thought: it would be neat if there were a (share) macro for social coding through the REPL 21:19:26 -!- gonzojive1 [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 21:19:32 gonzojive1 [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:49 social coding? 21:19:59 (make-facebook foobar) ? :> 21:21:13 -!- |3b|` is now known as |3b| 21:25:17 -!- ldh [~ldh@static-217-37.vpn.wisc.edu] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 21:27:39 -!- lianj_ is now known as lianj 21:29:53 mon_key annotated #120566 "don't violate expectations of setf protocol" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120566#1 21:32:33 -!- adobriyan [~ad@vulture2-nat-42.telecom.by] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:35:51 tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 21:35:53 alama [~alama@a79-169-26-254.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 21:36:54 redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:05 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:40:54 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 21:41:08 Bronsa [~brace@host201-184-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 21:43:14 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 21:47:06 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw80ffc152.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:47:18 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.17.75] has joined #lisp 21:47:41 hello. how is it possible, with sbcl and especially ecl, to access a file binary? I only want to access the raw bytes. but :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) seems not to be sufficient, sbcl complains that it is not a binary stream. 21:47:41 schoppenhauer, memo from pjb: have a look at http://git.informatimago.com/viewgit/index.php?a=viewblob&p=public/lisp&h=93bf3bb3b09b8d987d915905d6e85d00c0640735&hb=a78d355f14d88a86e420a63e6d2116587b006975&f=clisp/raw-memory.lisp and http://git.informatimago.com/viewgit/index.php?a=viewblob&p=public/lisp&h=f1c929226c94cba3bb3921abd05356888443d6a0&hb=a78d355f14d88a86e420a63e6d2116587b006975&f=clisp/raw-memory-lib.c 21:47:48 -!- Ragnaroek1 [~Adium@p5B0C79AE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:47:51 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:49:32 entropax [~entropi@192.55.55.37] has joined #lisp 21:51:33 -!- Ragnaroek [~Adium@p5B0C79AE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:51:43 schoppenhauer: You want to read uninterpreted octets from a file-on-disk? 21:51:50 schoppenhauer: It does work 21:51:50 drdo, memo from pjb: the bindings established by destructuring-bind are setfable. 21:51:50 drdo, memo from pjb: you may have a look at symbol-macrolet ? 21:51:50 drdo, memo from Hexstream: You mean something like (let ((fresh-list (list 'a 'b (list 'c 'd)))) (destructuring-bind* (a b ((&setf c) d)) fresh-list (setf c 'new-c) fresh-list)) => (A B (NEW-C D))? Will be available in a few weeks :) 21:53:16 nyef pasted "Reading binary data from a file" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120578 21:53:31 schoppenhauer: Try that? 21:53:35 read-sequence works, read-byte works 21:54:12 nyef: Can i have that file? 21:54:20 I was about to set out writing a library for such things 21:54:40 nyef, drdo thank you, sorry, I have made an other mistake. 21:54:41 like reading integers from octet strings 21:54:48 *vectors 21:55:15 I was actually wondering how i could do it byte by byte instead of bit by bit with ldb 21:55:29 drdo: Sure! http://common-lisp.net/gitweb?p=users/abridgewater/perry.git;a=blob;f=fileutils.lisp;h=768f6faa119574711046d4a470bbc21ec6fc33a8;hb=HEAD 21:56:24 -!- spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-111-135.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: .] 21:56:32 drdo: You might also find http://paste.lisp.org/display/120426#1 to be of interest. 21:57:18 -!- koning_robot [~user@s5597d50c.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:57:29 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:58:28 milkpost [~milkpost@173-23-137-233.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 21:59:44 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:59:58 nyef: thanks 22:00:30 drdo: No problem. 22:01:11 Note that the two different implementations of the same basic idea here came from two different projects for two different purposes. 22:01:39 Fileutils was for dealing with stuff in files, while the request-integer thing was for handling network data. 22:02:02 I had some utils lying around too for dealing with network data 22:02:08 -!- tmh [635b0bae@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:02:12 And i thought i might as well put them in a lib 22:02:45 -!- mega1 [~user@catv4E5C915D.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:02:55 I blame hardware vendors 22:03:07 -!- oconnore [~eric@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:03:25 -!- xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:03:28 -!- awesome-o [~anonymous@208.74.177.139.static.etheric.net] has quit [Quit: awesome-o] 22:03:54 *nyef* has the urge to attempt to unify the two implementations... Including using a macrolet to produce the various accessor functions from fileutils, complete with docstrings. 22:04:53 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:06:57 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:08:12 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755ec7.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:08:37 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 22:11:37 Odaym [~unix@212.36.209.4] has joined #lisp 22:11:54 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 22:12:02 -!- McMAGIC-- [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:12:14 i have to get something clear 22:12:50 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:12:52 is there such a thing as writing a program with a begging and end that you will watch unfold infront of you? 22:12:59 as in Java or C++ or etc... 22:13:11 executing one line after the other 22:13:16 A begging? 22:13:20 YES! 22:13:21 begin 22:13:22 begining 22:13:28 *beginning 22:13:39 oconnore [~eric@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:45 Odaym: yes. 22:13:58 is there something like "the beginning of the program is here, then it goes here and here and then finally "return 0"" 22:13:58 Odaym: What do you mean? 22:14:13 if that makes you happy 22:14:21 you can do (defun main () ...... 0) 22:14:21 Odaym: one method would be to simply tell your implementation to execute a specific function as "main" function 22:14:41 -!- jweiss-lunch [~user@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:14:45 because i wrote the first program in PCL (A Simple Database), and in the end i found that the deeper i get into the functions (the more i make them all-inclusive) the more near i am to "the end" 22:14:46 drdo: (defun main () (prog1 0 ...)) 22:15:09 nyef: Where is your line by line now? 22:15:19 :) 22:15:29 when i get the function that makes use of all the previously defined functions, in the "final" function, then that is where i am done 22:15:33 and that would be all i'd need 22:15:39 youguy [~youguy@109.pool85-56-107.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 22:15:43 yea i kind of understand now, the "beginning" is just logical 22:15:48 drdo: One of the lines says "do everything that follows this line, and then return 0". 22:15:51 McMAGIC-- [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--] has joined #lisp 22:15:54 nyef: Is there a reason for having so many functions for different lengths and endianness instead of a single one that accepts a size and endianness argument? 22:16:17 drdo: It was more concise for what I was doing at the time. 22:16:35 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:16:37 drdo: You'll note that the paste has the single function that takes a size and endianness. 22:17:00 (progn (function1) (function2) (function3)) ? 22:17:44 hi _3b 22:18:20 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-134-26.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:18:47 -!- entropax [~entropi@192.55.55.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:19:01 <|3b|> nyef: that reminds me, clxs seems to have some competition now: https://github.com/pyb/zen 22:19:06 <|3b|> Odaym: 'lo 22:19:56 "the Hackable X server", i would hack X off with an axe 22:20:10 -!- superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.148] has quit [Quit: superflit] 22:21:21 <|3b|> though displaying on OpenGL through X probably limits the places it would be useful :) 22:21:57 I'm hoping wayland will turn out nice 22:22:12 X is a nightmare to do anything with 22:22:23 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:23:05 |3b|: Hunh. That's mostly neat, except for the license. 22:23:39 <|3b|> ah, true... missed that part 22:23:41 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-23-137-233.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:23:43 nyef: What's wrong with gpl? 22:24:07 <|3b|> drdo: it is annoying if you prefer less restrictive licences 22:24:26 Sure, the question is, why do you prefer such licenses? 22:25:09 -!- oconnore [~eric@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:25:24 <|3b|> usually since i want to release my code as proprietary as well, and i think it is rude to expect people to contribute code that they can't use the same ways i can 22:25:44 I don't want to give people reasons to not use my code! 22:25:46 Well then you are Evil(TM) 22:26:14 <|3b|> no, evil is dual licensing GPL and expecting people to contribute to your proprietary fork :p 22:26:26 no, that's canonical. 22:26:35 GPL is there exactly to prevent proprietary software 22:26:48 <|3b|> any contributions i get to my mit/bsd stuff stays mit/bsd, and contributors can use it the same ways i can 22:27:24 *|3b|* is not going to contribute further to off-topic licence discussions though, maybe #lispcafe if you really want more... 22:27:33 I guess do understand your point 22:27:36 drdo: unless you do like mysql and require copyright assignments and then dual-license it 22:27:37 *i do 22:28:13 libraries only available under GPL are sometimes irritating 22:28:29 This whole idea of proprietary software is crazy 22:28:30 A standalone server only under the GPL doesn't seem like an issue at all 22:29:53 superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.148] has joined #lisp 22:30:29 -!- silenius [~silenus@p4FC22F65.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:30:34 oconnore [~eric@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:33:46 entropax [~entropi@nat/intel/x-tvvteoxubeiqiaxu] has joined #lisp 22:33:47 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host201-184-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:34:07 Bronsa [~brace@host201-184-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 22:34:56 is there a clear screen function in REPL/ 22:36:26 You can just scroll the slime buffer up if you don't want to see the contents for some reason :P 22:36:45 Odaym: C-c M-o 22:36:55 i'm on Allegro 22:37:16 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 22:39:49 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:40:05 -!- superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.148] has quit [Quit: superflit] 22:40:30 nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has joined #lisp 22:40:30 -!- nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has quit [Changing host] 22:40:31 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 22:40:33 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-5-180.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:41:54 tr3x [~tr3x@93-138-106-167.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 22:44:06 -!- oconnore [~eric@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:44:39 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 22:45:44 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@204.14.152.118] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 22:46:27 oconnore [~eric@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:38 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@a91-153-112-241.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:46:47 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-92-126-186.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:47:04 there is no (let (percept 0))? 22:47:11 has to be "nil" or "zero"? 22:47:27 Odaym: you're missing a set of parens around the binding form 22:47:30 Why are you attempting to bind an integer to zero? 22:47:33 it's (let ((percept 0)) ...) 22:47:38 Err... an integer to NIL? 22:47:54 (let ((percept nil) (0 nil)) ...)? 22:48:09 unhelpfully enough, LET lets you omit that and defaults to binding variables to nil, in the way nyef just showed 22:48:15 why double parenthesis around (percept 0), antifuchs? 22:48:24 Odaym: because that's how it works (: 22:48:33 i will check 22:48:43 (let (x y z) ...) gives you variables x, y, z in the body that are bound to nil 22:48:55 what're those three dots? 22:49:02 that's where your code goes 22:49:11 what code? 22:49:15 (let ((x 1) (y 2) (z 3)) ...) gives you variables x, y, z in the body with x through z bound to 1-3 22:49:20 it's just variable initialization.. 22:49:26 huh? 22:49:31 i just want "i = 0" 22:49:31 pls imagine that there is code there 22:49:42 isn't that through LET? 22:49:48 The three dots are known as an "elipsis", which typically indicates either a pause or that something has been elided. 22:49:50 I"m just throwing examples your way, hoping you'll see the pattern 22:50:08 Odaym: You might want to check your book's section on LET again 22:50:50 Odaym: The bindings by LET are only inside the scope of the LET 22:51:07 -!- oconnore [~eric@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:52:05 otherwise i can do (defvar *percept*)? 22:52:27 that's global 22:53:11 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 22:53:21 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:53:40 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:54:01 Good morning everyone! 22:55:47 Hello beach. 22:55:50 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host201-184-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:56:39 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:58:28 waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-5d87f83e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:00 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 22:59:01 -!- youguy [~youguy@109.pool85-56-107.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 22:59:50 jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 23:04:01 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:04:48 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-179.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:05:02 -!- Odaym [~unix@212.36.209.4] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:05:40 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:05:40 fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-162-118.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 23:05:45 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:06:36 Mococa [~Mococa@187.114.162.173] has joined #lisp 23:07:12 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-179.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 23:07:20 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.114.162.173] has quit [Client Quit] 23:07:55 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:09:04 Yay 23:09:13 Got 10 hours of lisp hacking ahead of me today :D 23:11:11 ... I hope it's still morning in your timezone. 23:11:30 nyef: lisp makes you 10x more productive, he'll be done in an hour 23:11:45 Heh! 23:12:01 that way, you can fit infinite amounts of hacking into 10 hours 23:12:14 you just compress your work down to one hour by using the power of lisp! 23:12:23 "we have to go deeper" 23:12:29 =.= 23:12:53 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:13:02 ah, but to code one line of lisp you need to code part of a line of lisp 23:13:06 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-53-100.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:13:10 so, logically, you can never code anything 23:13:59 Landr: Funny, we were just discussing using macros to differentiate mathematical functions earlier today, surely a macro to do compute definite integrals shouldn't be that hard... 23:14:47 hmm 23:14:57 *Landr* kind of sucks at maths above elementary levels 23:15:39 what would be the format of the function? TeX? 23:15:40 I still have trouble with calculus myself. 23:15:58 No, it'd be a sexpr format based on a subset of CL. 23:16:09 e.g.? 23:16:22 ... The problem with TeX is getting emacs to do something useful with it. 23:17:47 Well, for differentiation, consider (macroexpand-1 '(differentiate (expt x 2))) => (* 2 x) or thereabouts. 23:18:02 oconnore [~eric@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:02 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@89.132.7.226] has joined #lisp 23:18:02 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@89.132.7.226] has quit [Changing host] 23:18:02 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 23:19:54 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-53-100.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:20:48 Mococa [~Mococa@187.114.162.173] has joined #lisp 23:24:59 Ahh that was interesting me the other day, how doing like re-arranging of equations and other algerbra stuff might work in lisp 23:25:38 tenawa [~user@75.53.123.94] has joined #lisp 23:26:44 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-112-207.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:28:05 Also check out Maxima, which does a lot of stuff in that vein; and ACL2, which does things like mathematical induction-based proofs based on recursive function definitions. 23:29:46 -!- yan__ is now known as yan_ 23:31:22 One of the really neat things about ACL2 is that it not only can do inductive proofs on functions, but the functions also get compiled by the host lisp so they are also executable. 23:31:46 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-162-118.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:34:06 -!- ckelly [~ckelly@microgravity.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:34:44 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:34:51 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.114.162.173] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:34:51 -!- fisted [~fisted@unaffiliated/fisted] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:38:53 -!- ZabaQ1 is now known as ZabaQ 23:39:11 seejay [~seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has joined #lisp 23:39:57 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A5D11.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:42:11 -!- oconnore [~eric@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:43:22 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:43:48 fantazo [~fantazo@178-190-232-4.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 23:45:06 how can I pass list to and function? 23:45:41 tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.66.60] has joined #lisp 23:45:42 tr3x: AND is not a function. 23:46:01 tr3x: (every #'identity list) is one way to do something like that. 23:46:36 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:47:21 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-179.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:47:30 ok, but is there no generic way to flattening a list to send it to a function/macro like and? 23:48:16 (and (something '(1 2 3)) 23:48:27 -!- seejay [~seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:49:04 tr3x: it doesn't make sense to write "function/macro" there. 23:49:27 tr3x: macros do not follow the normal evaluation rules for their arguments. it's under the control of each particular macro. 23:50:49 okay 23:51:24 -!- elliottcable is now known as ec|detached 23:52:13 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:54:19 rvirding [~chatzilla@h134n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 23:55:27 fisted [~fisted@unaffiliated/fisted] has joined #lisp 23:55:43 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:57:19 tr3x: (apply #'and (alexandria:flatten my-list)) 23:57:52 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 23:57:58 tr3x: I could be mistaken about alexandria having a flatten function though. And EVERY might make more sense depending on what you're trying to do. 23:58:17 redline6561: AND is not a function. 23:59:58 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@bb116-14-191-157.singnet.com.sg] has left #lisp