00:00:04 not too experienced with this 00:00:16 <_3b> drdo: could also be facing wrong way 00:00:26 If you use high-tags, you no longer get easy fixnum addition/subtraction overflow. 00:00:45 nyef: well, unless you're on SPARC or ARM, I guess 00:00:47 If you use non-zero lowtags, you have to box and unbox. 00:00:48 _3b: i specified vertexes counter-clockwise 00:01:24 Or on the Raven or Hummingbird microarchitectures, or a similarly-designed piece of hardware. 00:01:57 So, generally, not worth the trouble. 00:02:02 pjb: yeah, although i'd have thought that would happen in read, when recursive-p is nil? 00:02:04 *_3b* is usually not sure enough of which way the camera is facing, etc, so just tries opposite order when stuff doesn't show up 00:02:26 _3b: is the z axis increasing towards me or away from me? 00:02:28 davertron [~david@c-24-218-166-166.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:02:37 <_3b> drdo: no idea :p 00:02:43 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.117.84] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:02:55 ... which reminds me, has anyone looked into the possibility of using x86oid alignment checks to do type tag checking in SBCL or another lisp system? 00:03:15 I can easily imagine it only being useful for CONS slot accessors, but that's at least /something/. 00:03:40 *p_l|backup* was pondering about untagged data as well 00:05:10 _3b: shit, really can't figure out why it's not showing :P 00:05:29 btbngr: in fact, the problem is that I don't see how read-char could call another reader function, so recursive or not, it should always have the same effect, AFAICS. 00:05:41 <_3b> drdo: maybe disable texturing, lighting, set clear color to something garish, etc? 00:05:43 jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 00:06:02 *p_l|backup* thinks he has to read through Dis source code to see how they deal with untagged data in a mark&sweep collector 00:06:30 pjb: yeah, that's the conclusion i drew after mucking around with a toy reader to try and work it out 00:09:48 it may be something to do with calling read-char from macro characters, so that the error is aware that it's happening from within one, but, i'm still uncertain. 00:10:42 _3b: i saw something! 00:11:08 especially, for e.g. with dispatch macro characters, say if i hit #, then maybe read-char would complain that the error occured in the middle of a lexical unit, rather than somewhere else. 00:12:27 fisted [~fisted@unaffiliated/fisted] has joined #lisp 00:13:28 btbngr: it would be up to the reader macro to catch the errors, and send up a better error message... 00:13:52 After all, read-char cannot know whether it's been called to read an integer or to read a dispatching macro character. 00:15:00 fire 00:15:03 that's a point. and a dispatch-macro-character has an opaque part which does the dispatch, which could easily wrap with-handler 00:15:36 nyef: ... you know, I sometimes feel really stupid. All I needed was to place NIL slightly farther up than 0, but still on first page... 00:17:01 milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 00:18:01 longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has joined #lisp 00:19:52 p_l|backup: Might I recommend an offset of, say, NIL-POINTER-LOWTAG or nearabouts? 00:20:03 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:21:02 yeah 00:21:19 ... why do you want this, anyway? 00:21:22 mattrepl [~mattrepl@204.14.152.118] has joined #lisp 00:22:09 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@204.14.152.118] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:22:28 nyef: idle backburner ideas regarding CL implementations 00:22:29 mattrepl [~mattrepl@204.14.152.118] has joined #lisp 00:22:55 also, wouldn't mind a completely relocatable SBCL on all platforms with dynamically growing/reclaimed memory 00:23:47 timepilot [~timepilot@99.55.95.55] has joined #lisp 00:24:13 The relocatable SBCL should be doable, actually. 00:25:22 -!- timepilot [~timepilot@99.55.95.55] has quit [Client Quit] 00:25:24 -!- logia_th [~nmo@170.Red-81-38-212.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: return 0;] 00:25:44 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 00:25:49 The main problem is unrelocatable references to static and read-only space, primarily assembly-routines, callback stubs, and static symbols on certain platforms. 00:25:56 it was done once alrady for 1.0.18 00:26:00 *already 00:26:15 lichtblau's branch? Didn't cover static-space or read-only space. 00:26:46 this, coupled with apropriately low dynamic space size, allowed me to run on a server that had draconian grsec policies 00:26:52 timepilot [~timepilot@99.55.95.55] has joined #lisp 00:26:58 And making it work on cold-cores was interesting, to say the least. 00:28:00 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:28:22 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Quit: eugu] 00:29:09 heh 00:29:31 I simply remembered some discussion long ago about the need for known position of NIL 00:30:18 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 00:30:23 -!- youguy [~youguy@89.pool85-56-107.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 00:30:49 Yeah, the /runtime/ needs to know, but throw it in a variable and stick it in the core header. 00:31:07 -!- koning_robot [~user@s5597d50c.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:31:12 ... I think I might have a proof-of-concept tree for that, actually... Though I might be mixing it up with something else. 00:31:27 wouldn't that cost an extra dereference for comparing for null? 00:31:46 Depends on the platform. 00:32:08 Many backends (such as PPC, Alpha, MIPS and SPARC) actually keep it in a register. 00:32:26 The x86oids might be the only two backends not to do so. 00:32:27 ah, right. yes i'm thinking in my intel straightjacket again :) 00:33:12 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@201.151.79.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:33:27 Hrm. If I /do/ have a tree like that, it's not my primary tree on this box. 00:34:45 lifeng [~lifeng@155.69.43.70] has joined #lisp 00:35:23 heh. Personally, I think that my first work on SBCL should rather be related to certain hacks I'd like to see as part of mainline :) 00:35:50 read-char-no-hang under win32 is a blocker for slime afaict :) 00:35:58 and if I got it into SBCL, it would be easier to get it into CMUCL/CCL/CLISP/ECL ^_- 00:36:46 btbngr: Thought they kludged that in slime ages back? 00:36:59 And it's not like there haven't been two or three examples of how to fix it in SBCL, either. 00:38:36 nyef: hm, really? i should go hunt for those. Aside from the scary 'experimental' tag, if it worked ok under win32 with caveats, it'd be nice to have handy, CLISP is not pretty :) 00:38:58 plus sbcl supports sldb nicely 00:39:44 In fact, last time I set updated a win32 sbcl (more than a year ago) I had to disable the slime kludge for working around r-c-n-h problems because I had long since set up a local fix for it. 00:40:08 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-135-128.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 00:40:25 One or both of the threaded win32 branches might also include a fix. 00:41:02 okay, i'll have to check that out, thanks nyef 00:41:46 http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/new-serve-event.lisp and http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/article-drafts/sbcl-win32-slime-and-cygwin-emacs.txt might be of (dated) interest. 00:42:09 thanks! 00:42:21 -!- zmv [~daniel@c934a9f5.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:42:54 -!- timepilot [~timepilot@99.55.95.55] has quit [Quit: timepilot] 00:43:20 ooh, hooking the message system, new-serve-event seems sensible. 00:43:23 The article is from before they kludged slime to do its odd thing for the debugger, and after they created the slime-tramp interface but before I found out about where the functionality I had been using had gotten to, if memory serves. 00:43:54 Again, one or both of the threaded win32 forks may have some of this stuff already. 00:44:34 nice. are there any serious caveats i should know about slime under win32? 00:44:50 or is it experimental mostly due to being untested? 00:45:05 slime? sbcl. 00:45:06 That I couldn't tell you, as I haven't had a win32 box for serious hacking in more than a year. 00:45:42 hehe. well, i'll kick it around a bit and see what happens. cheers for that 00:45:52 I think the experimental tag is largely from being unloved by the various comitters and the fixed-address-space problem. 00:46:41 right. 00:47:20 I'm not sure what's the what with winapi bindings these days, either. 00:47:37 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has quit [Quit: gute nacht] 00:49:18 i tried to get slime going on one of the new windows forks, but it got stuck in some kind of loop on the emacs side. 00:50:50 That might well have been the kludge they use for the r-c-n-h problem. 00:50:57 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.66.60] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:51:55 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 00:52:56 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 00:52:57 Wow, I'd forgotten about how just plain neat some of this stuff for winapi bindings actually was. 00:55:18 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:57:30 nyef: the only issue with NIL tag would be that it'd give an unaligned access :D 00:58:51 QinGW [~wangqingw@60.247.26.3] has joined #lisp 01:02:58 Why would it? You use a displacement on the access to offset the tag anyway. 01:03:28 hmmm 01:03:42 well, I'll check it later. Definitely gave me some food for thought 01:05:06 Just because the pointers aren't aligned doesn't mean that the underlying storage isn't aligned. Almost any memory access in SBCL involves a displacement on the order of (- (* word-width slot-index) lowtag). 01:05:17 -!- xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:05:34 -!- weirdo [~sthalik@sthalik.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:06:17 Hi, I'm trying to use trivial-bit-streams library, but I seem to be lost on how should I use it and streams generally. Is there some good introduction to using streams somewhere? 01:07:13 I also looked into using trivial-gray-streams' fundamental-binary-streams or flexi-streams, but I don't seem to quite get how should I use them properly. 01:08:46 peterhil`: what do you want to do? 01:09:16 I want to make a filter type command line compression program, and trivial bit streams seems good fit for handling data bit-by-bit or byte-by-byte in buffered format. 01:09:41 I just don't get how should I specify the callbacks with tbs 01:09:51 Jubb [~ghost@c-98-204-160-127.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:09:56 ... Or you could "just" use salza or something? 01:09:58 Or attach a stream to a file. 01:10:09 *Xach* has not seen trivial-bit-streams, isn't sure how it might work 01:10:40 -!- La0fer [~Laofers1@64.120.233.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:11:08 peterhil`: OPEN is a way to get a stream associated with a file 01:11:29 peterhil`: WITH-OPEN-FILE is a nice way to use OPEN 01:11:47 Yeah, I'm having trouble coming up with a plausible way to hook up a variable-width bitstream via gray streams. 01:11:59 nyef: Ok, maybe I try if I get Salza's bitstreams... :-) 01:12:19 salza2 is the thing to peek at 01:12:31 Yeah, I have the sources 01:12:32 -!- Soulman1 [~knute@250.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 01:12:45 Variable-width encoding based on integers input is one thing, but if the /input/ is supposed to be of specified widths then... 01:14:08 chipz does that 01:14:53 How do you know what the width of #b0001001 is, other than INTEGER-LENGTH, which will tell you it's four bits long? 01:15:07 prefix-free codes! 01:15:24 *Xach* makes it up, does not know how chipz works, only knows how salza2 does 01:16:36 <_3b> looks like you just do (with-bit-input-stream (foo :callback (make-stream-input-callback some-open-binary-stream)) (read-bits n foo) ...), and similarly for output 01:17:20 Deathaholic [~Mococa@189.115.148.246] has joined #lisp 01:17:51 I'm actually trying to write a simple arithmetic coder. Yeah, prefix free codes works for that problem... 01:17:51 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.148.246] has quit [Disconnected by services] 01:18:36 -!- Deathaholic is now known as Mococa 01:18:54 wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-24-193-121-20.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:19:51 _3b: Thanks. I was confused about the make-stream-input-callback's stream argument type. Should've tried with an open binary stream. 01:20:33 <_3b> looks like it expects :element-type 'ub8 01:20:53 <_3b> wher 'ub8 is '(unsigned-byte 8) 01:21:42 _3b: Okay, so it's not actually a /gray/ stream. 01:22:31 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 01:22:57 <_3b> nyef: yeah, though possibly a nonconformant one :) 01:23:16 <_3b> for example it has a variable to tell whether read-sequence reads BITs or octets 01:24:43 -!- davertron [~david@c-24-218-166-166.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:24:43 <_3b> apparently affects read-byte as well 01:25:59 <_3b> so, gray streams with extra operations and strange behavior for the standard operations :) 01:26:58 So... should I try with Salza2's bitstreams instead? 01:27:59 <_3b> those might not be bad things, just possibly not obvious... 01:28:00 -!- entropax [~entropi@192.55.55.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:28:27 I was more thinking that salza2 already does compression, which should leave you with the filtery bits at worst. 01:30:02 Yeah, maybe I try Salza2 01:30:20 <_3b> yeah, if you can use the compression from salza2 that would probably be easiest :) 01:30:20 -!- nixfreak [~nixfreak@mn-10k-dhcp1-3174.dsl.hickorytech.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:33:54 jcowan [~John@cpe-74-68-112-189.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:34:10 So what does the infrastructure behind quicklisp look like, does anybody know and care to tell? 01:34:14 _3b: Yeah, sure. :-) But I want to make my own and experiment. 01:34:28 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:37:22 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-128-236.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 01:37:53 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-qeqgqjcrvwsopict] has joined #lisp 01:40:25 -!- basho__ [~basho__@dslb-092-076-095-250.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:46:19 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:46:39 cheezus [~Adium@76-10-163-32.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 01:47:06 -!- cheezus [~Adium@76-10-163-32.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 01:47:18 basho__ [~basho__@dslb-092-076-083-063.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 01:48:52 chemuduguntar [~ravic@smtp.touchcut.com] has joined #lisp 01:52:35 panike [~nwp@adsl-76-204-93-212.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:12 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-49-13-243.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:17 -!- parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 01:56:27 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.148.246] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 01:56:43 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:57:21 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.148.246] has joined #lisp 01:59:33 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-qeqgqjcrvwsopict] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:00:35 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-tjgrquipwrhrsdpf] has joined #lisp 02:02:08 jcowan: I hear it's hosted on Amazon c3. 02:02:45 Yes, I know that. I was wondering how one feeds a new package or new release into the hopper. 02:03:03 AFAIK, so far, email Xach. 02:03:06 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.66.173.210] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 02:03:10 <_3b> file an issue on the project on github i think 02:03:39 Okay, so not really scalable. 02:04:18 AFAIK, it already contains 80% of the available lisp libraries. 02:04:28 <_3b> more like 'as scalable as it needs to be right now' :p 02:04:47 Fair enough. 02:05:25 <_3b> i'm sure there are much more useful features to work on, and it isn't like libraries are being created that quickly :) 02:06:04 More over, you want some QA filter... 02:07:09 But the general idea is: I generate a tarball, tell Xach, it gets gobbled up? 02:07:31 Yes. Perhaps better with a git repo. 02:12:27 i_r_litestar [182e1463@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.46.20.99] has joined #lisp 02:13:29 jcowan: If you want a system added, submit it as an issue on https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/issues 02:13:40 No, I'm asking for general knowledge. 02:16:20 -!- panike [~nwp@adsl-76-204-93-212.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:16:30 -!- i_r_litestar [182e1463@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.46.20.99] has left #lisp 02:17:18 -!- xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:18:32 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-128-236.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:52 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 02:21:26 -!- schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:22:28 schmrkc [~marcus@c83-254-196-92.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 02:22:28 -!- schmrkc [~marcus@c83-254-196-92.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Changing host] 02:22:28 schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 02:23:20 leo2007 [~leo@59.60.11.74] has joined #lisp 02:24:00 Interesting, typing #\à in REPL gives back #\Latin_Capital_Letter_A_With_Tilde 02:25:04 bad encoding 02:25:15 how so? 02:25:15 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 02:25:27 it is in CCL by the way. 02:25:43 #\à is not capital. 02:25:51 and has a grave accent, not a tilde. 02:26:03 If it's from a terminal, you probably need start the lisp with "ccl -K utf-8". 02:27:22 -!- schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:27:39 http://trac.clozure.com/ccl/wiki/InstallingSlime explains how to set up emacs and slime to use utf-8. 02:27:57 rme: I am still getting #\Latin_Small_Letter_A_With_Grave, doing so without slime. 02:28:10 well, that's right, isn't it? 02:28:36 it is. Just wondering why not just #\à? 02:29:03 The Atilde shows that UTF-8 is being interpreted as Latin-1 02:30:47 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-128-236.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 02:32:18 rme: OK, I thought they were the same. 02:32:23 jcowan: thanks. 02:32:26 leo2007: I don't know. Apparently, we decided to give non-ascii characters the canonical unicode name. 02:33:19 does sbcl for windows have thread support yet? 02:33:34 or is clozure my best bet? 02:34:35 i got sick of driver problems and went to the dark side at least temporarily... 02:36:28 oconnore: there's a win32-thread fork available 02:36:56 (let me look up the link) 02:36:57 oconnore: sbcl only have threads on linux. 02:37:08 thanks antifuchs 02:37:11 oconnore: http://www.siftsoft.com/inprogress/forknews.html 02:37:34 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 02:37:36 thanks 02:37:59 oconnore: people have reported mixed success with it (I've seen a report of the msi failing) 02:38:29 CCL works on Windows. 02:38:34 *rme* rah rah 02:38:35 yeah, i will check it out, but will probably end up with clozure 02:39:19 leo: It's because you usually want readable things printed. 02:39:37 leo: Latin_Capital_Letter_A_With_Tilde is always readable, but not so for #\à 02:40:01 oconnore: definitely report any success or failure to sbcl-devel; we won't get much further on this without people trying it (: 02:41:34 will do. while i'm asking questions, does anyone know if the llvm port is totally dead? 02:42:06 http://repo.or.cz/w/sbcl/llvm.git 02:42:32 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:43:18 Zhivago: thanks. 02:43:45 oconnore: foom should be able to answer this! (: 02:43:55 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-76-245-62-252.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 02:45:55 -!- levi [~user@c-174-52-219-147.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:46:41 levi [~user@c-174-52-219-147.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:50:19 evening 02:53:01 myu2 [~myu2@x108121.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 02:55:54 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:03:14 LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-119-109.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:27 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 03:06:08 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 03:10:12 rme: Thanks for fixing the abs bug in ccl. 03:10:30 rtoym: thanks for the bug report 03:11:08 No problem. Kind of interesting to see that that one bug rippled through to cause issues with several other functions. :-) 03:11:16 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:11:44 I was very pleased to get those other two bugs fixed for free. 03:12:21 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 03:20:58 tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:23:26 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:23:42 -!- btbngr [~Matt@188.28.143.225.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:24:29 btbngr [~Matt@188.28.143.225.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 03:24:33 -!- awesome-o [~anonymous@208.74.177.139.static.etheric.net] has quit [Quit: awesome-o] 03:24:39 mattrepl_ [~mattrepl@204.14.152.118] has joined #lisp 03:26:20 gko [~gko@111.70.2.117] has joined #lisp 03:26:42 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@204.14.152.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:26:42 -!- 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[~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-raypaebuwojofybv] has joined #lisp 06:12:15 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:13:46 nostoi [~nostoi@212.Red-79-148-57.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 06:13:46 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-76-171-245-75.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 06:16:49 Guest44233 [~michael@2001:da8:4000:1:20f:feff:feec:8f0] has joined #lisp 06:18:07 -!- Guest44233 [~michael@2001:da8:4000:1:20f:feff:feec:8f0] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 06:18:31 Guest44233 [~michael@2001:da8:4000:1:20f:feff:feec:8f0] has joined #lisp 06:19:11 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-123.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:21:46 b3g0tt3n [b808a062@gateway/web/freenode/ip.184.8.160.98] has joined #lisp 06:24:43 hi can someone point me to some docs on common lisp and continuations? 06:24:47 -!- tenawa [~user@adsl-75-53-123-94.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:25:08 rookiejet [~mazin@dhcp-0-f-3d-bc-41-3b.cpe.quickclic.net] has joined #lisp 06:25:09 ccorn [~ccorn@j109182.upc-j.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 06:25:14 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-123.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:25:27 layl0w: Common Lisp doesn't have first-class continuations the way Scheme does. You can simulate them using closures sometimes. 06:26:43 are first class continuations more desirable? 06:27:23 layl0w: It is not as simple as that. Nothing is. It is always a compromise between performance, semantics, power of expression, etc. 06:27:43 layl0w: Do you know any other programming languages? 06:28:26 lay: first class continuations are more powerful. 06:28:51 lay: In the same sense that non-local goto is more powerful than while loops. 06:29:50 lay: These days there is research into 'delimited continuations', which may represent a good compromise between power and cost. 06:30:11 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA28512.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:31:33 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@212.Red-79-148-57.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 06:32:40 -!- rookiejet [~mazin@dhcp-0-f-3d-bc-41-3b.cpe.quickclic.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 06:34:05 how can I minmize the elarning fo endless syntax? 06:34:09 or is this unavoidable? 06:34:27 I know some lisp scheme forth bash tcl 06:35:29 I have a question about parsing a file. 06:35:32 using clisp 06:40:05 -!- btbngr [~Matt@188.28.143.225.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:40:11 Ragnaroek [~Adium@p5B0C6E92.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:41:45 i visualize simply makign the fiel a list separated by " ", and then equalp to wha tI want 06:41:56 perhaps with a * in the value of equalp 06:42:11 menatlly this si simpler than bash or tcl but not sure where to dig up the clisp syntax 06:42:55 lay: You are not making sense. 06:43:13 snearch [~snearch@f053012185.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 06:43:45 ok I was given a 3000 line file, and told to extract the ip addresses of all server on the 140 network 06:43:59 140.x.x.x is an example 06:44:07 the file is disorganized 06:44:08 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:44:25 some times the ip is 4th word sometimes 8th and lines are of different length 06:44:53 so, what's your question? 06:45:41 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 06:46:51 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 06:46:59 -!- kwertii [~kwertii@ResNet-32-197.resnet.ucsb.edu] has quit [Quit: bye] 06:48:57 using tcl I was able to open the file, read it into a variable, then split the variable by " " 1 space, then use a string match function to match each in a foreach loop against 140*[1-9] , then open a channel to a new file and output the results that mathed one by one, then close th echanel to the new file 06:49:10 I want to duplicate the result with clisp 06:49:17 to prove I can do it. 06:49:31 -!- jdz [~jdz@host83-16-dynamic.4-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:49:31 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:50:16 in my mind it should be so simple in clisp but I am unsure of the syntax 06:52:18 Davsebamse [~das@94.127.50.104] has joined #lisp 06:52:46 i suggest learning lisp first, then it will be simple 06:53:57 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:54:31 mgindulescu [~mircea@nat/nokia/x-ohklfilkvyjmoyce] has joined #lisp 06:55:38 really? 06:55:43 seriously? 06:55:51 so lisp make sminemeat fo strings as well? 06:55:59 mincemeat 06:56:02 http://technoninja.blogspot.com/2011/03/pick-ip-out-of-big-ugly-text-fiel-using.html 06:56:05 he was my tcl code 06:57:01 minion: please tell layl0w about PCL 06:57:02 layl0w: please see PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 06:58:12 gavino, is that you? 06:58:44 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:59:42 yes 07:00:59 *stassats* has no further questions 07:01:56 i have a silly question that i'm going to share with my friend.... 07:01:58 what clisp? 07:02:02 what=why 07:02:26 he doesn't understand the practicality or industrial need for clisp or lisp in any format. 07:03:18 -!- Ragnaroek [~Adium@p5B0C6E92.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:04:08 his loss 07:04:19 http://clisp.org/summary.html 07:04:50 stassats: why do you have no further questions? 07:06:46 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 07:07:26 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:09:21 youguy [~youguy@11.Red-193-152-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:12:15 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@204.14.152.118] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 07:12:23 stassats: have you used lisp for parsin large text files? 07:13:28 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 07:15:07 Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 07:15:21 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:15:29 -!- xristos [~x@2001:470:8859:cafe:20c:29ff:fe47:788] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:15:32 katesmith_ [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 07:15:39 -!- kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:16:28 _8david [~user@port-92-195-17-116.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:16:42 -!- specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:18:03 xristos [~x@2001:470:8859:cafe:20c:29ff:fe47:788] has joined #lisp 07:18:17 -!- xristos is now known as Guest51336 07:18:27 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:18:27 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-83-99.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:18:27 -!- djinni` [~djinni`@li125-242.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:18:59 kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has joined #lisp 07:19:09 -!- strlen [~alex@behemoth.strlen.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:19:09 -!- rsynnott [rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:19:09 -!- thijso [~thijs@83.98.233.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:19:22 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-83-99.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:20:00 strlen [~alex@behemoth.strlen.net] has joined #lisp 07:20:08 rsynnott [rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has joined #lisp 07:20:22 stassats: could you help me write this little script? 07:20:24 thijso [~thijs@83.98.233.115] has joined #lisp 07:20:32 no 07:20:33 -!- lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-17-116.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:20:50 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 07:21:08 stassats: why not? 07:22:37 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has joined #lisp 07:22:37 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has quit [Changing host] 07:22:37 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 07:23:54 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:24:33 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 07:25:06 He has to wash his hair. 07:27:19 djinni` [~djinni`@li125-242.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 07:30:21 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:30:31 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:35:24 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has joined #lisp 07:35:44 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@j109182.upc-j.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 07:35:53 -!- cpach [~carl@h167n3-sde-a31.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:36:12 cpach [~carl@h167n3-sde-a31.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 07:36:16 ... and iron his bowling shirt. 07:36:20 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:36:20 -!- scode_ [~scode@hyperion.scode.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:36:52 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 07:37:14 -!- talyz [~user@ip35.tunnan.riksnet.nu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:37:28 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 07:37:40 I was told at work today to be more diplomatic. 07:38:01 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-157-151.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:38:13 -!- Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:39:04 sigh 07:39:13 so much for having fun seeing lisp do what tcl did 07:39:19 I was trying to get inspired 07:39:22 have soem fun 07:39:35 now I just have headache from looking at hyperspec 07:40:37 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:42:27 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:42:34 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 07:42:42 good morning 07:43:08 beach: morphological operations (dilate, erode, etc...) are now supported 07:43:11 hey mvilleneuve 07:43:45 slyrus: Nice! 07:43:59 and there's a new coerce-image function that unifies some of the conversion functions 07:44:21 the fact that I'm using types not classes makes the interface not as nice as one would like, but it's OK 07:45:14 (the interface for the coercions anyway) 07:45:23 scode [~scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 07:47:43 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:48:13 -!- layl0w [4a6fc587@gateway/web/freenode/ip.74.111.197.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:48:49 -!- youguy [~youguy@11.Red-193-152-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 07:52:33 can anyone direct me to help installing slime? i'm setting up a new ubuntu box and the cvs isn't checking out. any direction would be appreciated. 07:52:59 minion: Tell b3g0tt3n about quicklisp. 07:53:00 b3g0tt3n: direct your attention towards quicklisp: Quicklisp aims to make it easy to get started with a rich set of community-developed Common Lisp libraries. http://www.cliki.net/quicklisp 07:53:55 how does it compare to slime? 07:54:35 splittist [~splittist@59-168.203-62.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:58:06 -!- splittist [~splittist@59-168.203-62.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 08:01:20 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 08:02:29 why not install slime that packaged by ubuntu? 08:02:30 splittist [~splittist@59-168.203-62.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 08:02:46 -!- Guest44233 [~michael@2001:da8:4000:1:20f:feff:feec:8f0] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:04:31 Ragnaroek [~Adium@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 08:05:17 morning 08:06:25 Guest44233 [~michael@2001:da8:4000:1:20f:feff:feec:8f0] has joined #lisp 08:06:26 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:10:08 b3g0tt3n: it isn't a SLIME replacement, but a mechanism by which you can get SLIME more easily. 08:10:11 koning_robot [~user@s5597d50c.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #lisp 08:10:50 ckelly [~ckelly@biop230.leidenuniv.nl] has joined #lisp 08:11:35 i just found heaven 08:14:24 so belinda carlisle was right: heaven is a place on earth. 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[~hargettp@pool-71-174-128-236.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 12:00:31 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:10:30 silenius [~silenus@p54946450.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:10:50 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 12:11:11 -!- sellout [~Adium@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:12:11 -!- Guest44233 [~michael@2001:da8:4000:1:20f:feff:feec:8f0] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:14:23 Guest44233 [~michael@2001:da8:4000:1:20f:feff:feec:8f0] has joined #lisp 12:15:57 -!- dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-101-147.xnet.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:16:57 dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-101-147.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 12:19:15 <_8david> fe[nl]ix: is the short linux-style output from make in lfp something you enabled explicitly or just automake's default? How can I get rid of it to see the actual (failing) cc invocation? 12:19:21 Gmind [~Nevermind@113.190.162.116] has joined #lisp 12:19:45 make V=1 12:19:56 I enabled it explicitly 12:21:44 <_8david> thanks. 12:22:15 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.79.142] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:22:39 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.89.126] has joined #lisp 12:22:58 LiamH [~healy@129-2-135-197.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 12:23:34 -!- LiamH [~healy@129-2-135-197.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 12:23:38 LiamH1 [~healy@129-2-135-197.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 12:24:38 -!- LiamH1 is now known as LiamH 12:25:18 <_8david> ah, silent-rules 12:25:28 yes 12:26:12 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 12:26:12 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:26:20 lfp? 12:26:36 lib fix posix 12:27:17 -!- LiamH [~healy@129-2-135-197.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 12:27:18 LiamH1 [~healy@129-2-135-197.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 12:27:30 ah 12:28:25 kanru: don't install SLIME from packages in distros 12:30:23 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 12:31:32 -!- Raykon [~user@81.193.140.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:33:44 -!- LiamH1 is now known as LiamH 12:34:59 -!- luis` is now known as luis 12:36:48 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 12:37:58 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 12:38:44 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-151-186.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 12:38:45 -!- Rukowen [~Rukowen@113.162.163.76] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:39:30 nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has joined #lisp 12:39:30 -!- nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has quit [Changing host] 12:39:30 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 12:39:49 Rukowen [~Rukowen@113.162.163.76] has joined #lisp 12:40:33 Very interesting slides titled "Organizing Functional Code for Parallel Execution" from Guy Steele: http://labs.oracle.com/projects/plrg/Publications/ICFPAugust2009Steele.pdf 12:40:47 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 12:42:43 Also: A Lisp job: http://careers.stackoverflow.com/jobs/10623/software-engineer-955-dreams?campaign=List 12:43:54 Sometimes it pays to search for #lisp on Twitter... ;-) 12:44:08 -!- Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:45:46 p_l|backup: I see using quicklisp is pretty easy, but why SLIME from distros is bad, besides slightly outdated? 12:46:15 -!- Rukowen [~Rukowen@113.162.163.76] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:46:44 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:46:51 kanru: SLIME evolves quite fast, that's why there was no numbered release in a long time, and fixes and improvements to comply with newer versions of implementation you use might not be in your distro's repo 12:49:55 Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:50:46 -!- dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-101-147.xnet.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:51:11 -!- Ragnaroek [~Adium@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:51:11 yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 12:52:14 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-157-151.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:54:48 -!- pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:54:55 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:57:19 -!- Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:57:30 -!- alama [~alama@a79-169-26-218.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: alama] 12:59:41 -!- Guest44233 [~michael@2001:da8:4000:1:20f:feff:feec:8f0] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:01:56 Guest44233 [~michael@2001:da8:4000:1:20f:feff:feec:8f0] has joined #lisp 13:03:26 -!- slash_ [~unknown@pD955A93D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:03:51 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-tjgrquipwrhrsdpf] has left #lisp 13:06:55 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 13:07:54 dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-102-50.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 13:10:45 -!- hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:10:55 sellout_ [~Adium@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 13:11:05 -!- stipet [~user@ua.blixtvik.net] has left #lisp 13:11:19 hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 13:11:52 paradoja [~paradoja@18.Red-81-44-226.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:14:02 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:14:28 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-zyojogzjlhhvmegj] has joined #lisp 13:14:28 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-zyojogzjlhhvmegj] has quit [Changing host] 13:14:28 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 13:15:09 bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-31-28-194.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:05 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:17:07 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-66-152.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 13:17:16 jweiss [~user@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:17:21 *Xach* is paranoid about bundling a bad slime in quicklisp 13:18:05 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:18:42 You can always call the ghostbusters. 13:19:43 Xach: Just curious  what are your criteria for making a non-beta release? Are you planning to have dist support more complete, just bug fixing, or haven't really thought about it? 13:20:08 -!- silenius [~silenus@p54946450.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:20:49 sellout_: I'd like to have more tools for dist management on the user side, dist creation on the upstream side 13:21:02 plus PGP verification 13:22:15 The next client update (this week) will make things a lot more flexible in terms of fetching specific third-party dists or specific versions of a dist, plus managing whether a particular dist is updated automatically or not 13:28:05 tr3x [~tr3x@178.160.17.79] has joined #lisp 13:28:35 orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has joined #lisp 13:29:38 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:30:02 frx [~b2a0114f@ns1.smartcall.bg] has joined #lisp 13:30:06 . 13:30:18 hello lispers 13:30:31 hi 13:31:28 -!- LiamH [~healy@129-2-135-197.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:33:05 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 13:33:58 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:34:47 sellout_: also, i'd love to get the metadata up to snuff. i don't know what half of those damn libraries are for. 13:35:17 Xach: Ah yeah  metadata would be nice :) 13:35:42 *sellout_* created some new libraries recently, but probably not anything that is very useful to anyone else  gravatar and fitbit APIs. 13:35:53 is there a reason to put #' in front of (lambda ...)? 13:36:20 it works either way, so I guess it's a style issue? 13:36:43 frx: I don't do it, but it's somewhat common. (lambda ) is a macro that expands to (function (lambda ) 13:36:45 ) 13:37:11 *sellout_* wishes his IRC client supported paredit. 13:39:16 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 13:39:25 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:39:32 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 13:39:47 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Client Quit] 13:41:17 frx: for more than you want to know and no conclusion, you could read http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/179b81c1ff61aa9c 13:41:18 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 13:44:40 Yuuhi [benni@p5483C02E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:07 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.222.29] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:46:08 thanks 13:52:02 lifeng [~lifeng@bb116-14-191-157.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 13:53:39 Odaym [~unix@212.36.209.4] has joined #lisp 13:55:40 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:57:11 youguy [~youguy@11.Red-193-152-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:58:50 -!- Odaym [~unix@212.36.209.4] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:02:26 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-66-152.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:10:05 -!- redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:11:28 hi 14:12:36 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:13:35 colazero [~colazero@www5054u.sakura.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:17:16 -!- Guest44233 [~michael@2001:da8:4000:1:20f:feff:feec:8f0] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:17:44 -!- youguy [~youguy@11.Red-193-152-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:18:35 setmeaway2 [setmeaway3@118.45.149.204] has joined #lisp 14:19:19 -!- macrobat_ [~fuzzyglee@h-152-12.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:19:19 -!- setmeaway [setmeaway3@118.45.149.204] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:19:42 Jacke_ [jacke@valhalla.bofh.org] has joined #lisp 14:19:48 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-113-201.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:19:54 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-113-201.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 14:20:41 -!- Jacke [jacke@valhalla.bofh.org] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:21:56 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-raypaebuwojofybv] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:23:11 macrobat_ [~fuzzyglee@h-152-12.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 14:27:50 MoALTz [~no@92.8.159.148] has joined #lisp 14:29:46 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-031-063.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:49 tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has joined #lisp 14:31:03 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 14:33:10 Hmm...has anyone tried to use cl-launch *and* quicklisp at the same time? Tried generating a simple script to run at the command line, and it doesn't read the sbclrc. I could add the sbclrc quicklisp definition to my lisp file and probably could get it to work - but is there a better way? 14:33:40 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:34:06 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 14:36:11 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@adsl-32-14-244.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:36:12 Atomsk [ace4016@adsl-32-14-244.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:12 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.8.159.148] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:36:15 morning 14:36:29 muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:48 -!- basho__ [~basho__@dslb-092-076-083-063.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:38:20 -!- Liera [~user@113.172.53.111] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:40:32 -!- Areil [~Areil@113.172.53.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:40:34 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:41:24 Joreji [~thomas@78-067.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:42:03 Areil [~Areil@113.172.53.111] has joined #lisp 14:42:57 Saturnation [~dsouth@71.169.182.79] has joined #lisp 14:42:58 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:43:58 TDT: make it load quicklisp? It shouldn't really matter as long as you configure it apropriately... 14:44:10 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 14:44:26 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:44:38 wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-24-193-121-20.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:45:19 -!- Jacke_ [jacke@valhalla.bofh.org] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:45:26 Jacke [jacke@valhalla.bofh.org] has joined #lisp 14:45:46 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:46:42 milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw80ff6653.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 14:46:46 -!- orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:47:30 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:48:12 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@fredri.cc] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:48:26 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:49:12 ephcon [~ephcon@fredri.cc] has joined #lisp 14:49:17 TDT: what are you using cl-launch for? 14:49:36 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:50:06 -!- madrik [~madrik@122.168.188.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:50:42 tcr [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 14:53:47 greaver [~jo@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 14:54:08 -!- splittist2 is now known as splittits 14:54:14 -!- splittits is now known as splittist 14:54:56 yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 14:59:20 -!- hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:00:25 hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has joined #lisp 15:01:17 frx pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120531 15:01:53 I am reading Practical Common lisp. can somebody explain why is he explicitly setting *db* to return value of mapcar? 15:03:21 tmh [635b0bae@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 15:03:28 Greetings lispers. 15:03:58 -!- colazero [~colazero@www5054u.sakura.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Tiarra 0.1+svn-36726: SIGINT received; exit] 15:04:34 since mapcar modifies *db* anyway 15:05:11 -!- Davsebamse [~das@94.127.50.104] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:05:14 frx: what's the line of code? 15:05:29 (mapcar #'foo *db*) will not modify *db* 15:05:37 http://paste.lisp.org/display/120531 15:05:50 tmh pasted "LOOP on HASH-TABLES" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120532 15:06:25 frx: this might set some rows to NIL if selector-fn returns false 15:06:31 colazero [~colazero@www5054u.sakura.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:07:11 «returns a new list» is written in PCL about MAPCAR above the code with mapcar and *db*. 15:07:18 I can never convince myself that looping over a hash-table is guaranteed to return the corresponding key-value pair. It seems to work, but when I read the hyperspec, I don't see it explicitly stated. 15:08:01 tmh: alexandria:hash-table-alist ? 15:08:32 tcr: Let me look at that. 15:08:43 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:08:45 *db* is actually list not a hash-table in this chapter, supposedly for simplicity 15:09:01 -!- fisted [~fisted@unaffiliated/fisted] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:09:39 lanthan [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:09:47 tcr selector-fn returns the list of cds in the database 15:09:56 maybe I should paste entire code 15:10:19 Bronsa [~brace@host181-175-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:10:28 and you're right, mapcar does not modify *db*. I could swear it did earlier though even though I removed setf *db 15:10:35 tcr: That's not really the point. My example makes an alist only for illustration. What I'm concerned with is that there is a guarantee to always to get the corresponding key-value pair when looping, whether loop does this with the USING keyword or 2 BEING statements. 15:12:15 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-24-193-121-20.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 15:13:25 ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 15:14:19 <_8david> fe[nl]ix: the -W flags in AM_CFLAGS aren't appropriate for the compiler I'm using. What's the right way to tweak them? 15:15:04 tmh: isn't it (loop for range being each hash-key using (hash-value cycles) in hash-table ...)? I don't see that any guarantees are given for two BEINGs. 15:15:23 _8david: what compiler is that ? 15:15:50 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 15:16:19 splittist: Yeah, that's what I think, but before I read the LOOP chapter in depth, I used 2 BEINGs and it always seemed to work, or else I was really lucky. :-) 15:16:29 yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 15:16:40 <_8david> fe[nl]ix: solaris cc 15:17:13 _8david: does suncc fully support C99 ? 15:17:53 <_8david> erm, I've tried telling it to use c99, but ran into issues. Should I try that again? 15:18:04 splittist: I'm just wondering if I was lucky or that the way LOOP internal traverses a hash-table guarantees corresponding key-value pairs. 15:18:40 Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 15:19:09 _8david: lfp needs a C99 compiler 15:19:43 tmh: I think you are lucky that the obvious way of implementing that part of loop means the keys and values match. I can imagine other implementation strategies in the presence of many cores that would leave you out of luck (: 15:19:57 tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.66.60] has joined #lisp 15:21:01 splittist: Yes, that is why I'm worried about being lucky. 15:21:03 Xach: Using cl-launch to develop a shell script - The problem I've found is using sbcl --script doesn't use sbclrc, either, and I'm trying to time how long this takes to execute (time command). 15:21:19 <_8david> fe[nl]ix: hrm. I was so happy to see it compile. :-(. 15:21:34 fe[nl]ix: afaik Sun CC supports C99, at least the sensible parts of it, but it might have different options :) 15:22:02 <_8david> #pragma once was the only modern thing I had to replace 15:22:50 _8david: can't you use gcc ? 15:24:13 or, at least, the gnu cpp ? 15:24:46 I've verified that it compiles with pretty recent gcc and clang so I'd rather not support another compiler 15:25:14 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:25:35 aren't -W flags simply to control warnings? 15:27:03 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-031-063.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:27:09 muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:15 p_l|backup: indeed 15:27:37 -!- sellout_ [~Adium@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:27:38 p_l|backup: unless you're using -Werror 15:28:28 ilmari: which changes warnings into errors, iirc 15:28:48 p_l|backup: yes 15:29:14 <_8david> p_l|backup: that isn't the point here. -W errors out. 15:29:36 <_8david> also, the gcc3 included with solaris doesn't support all the -W flags that lfp wants either. 15:29:43 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 15:30:10 how old is that solaris ? 15:30:16 <_8david> brand new solaris 11 express 15:30:29 I've been using gcc4 for years now 15:31:08 Is slime's eval-in-frame supposed to honor dynamic scope? 15:31:17 the question is, is -W absolutely necessary and can't there be an option to call c99 instead of gcc/clang if neither can be found? 15:31:21 _8david: ok, which flags are unrecognized ? 15:31:33 (which would then get called without -W) 15:31:53 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:32:12 <_8david> -Wmissing-field-initializers 15:33:10 only that ? 15:33:39 superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.148] has joined #lisp 15:34:10 deepfire: Dynamic scope in what way? 15:34:43 <_8david> IIRC that was the only missing -W flag for gcc3 -- but not the only compilation problem with gcc3 obviously. But I'll retry with gcc now that it works with cc. 15:35:02 tcr, I'm evaluating a special variable in different frames, which is known to be non-NIL in the global scope, but I'm getting NIL through eval-in-frame 15:36:33 wait eval-in-frame? 15:36:46 tcr, pressing 'e' in the debugger 15:36:55 ah sorry I was thinking you are talking of eval-in-emacs 15:36:56 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:37:27 you'd have to dig into swank-sbcl.lisp and what it does on the implementation level 15:37:34 deepfire: I'd expect it to depend partly on the host implementation. 15:37:43 Ouch. 15:37:52 I sort of expected it to just work.. 15:38:17 I realise, though, that it's a non-trivial feature.. 15:39:10 Does SLIME "just" call SB-DI:EVAL-IN-FRAME ? 15:39:30 lesshaste [~lesshaste@87-194-206-189.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:40:02 Spion__ [~spion@77.29.254.208] has joined #lisp 15:41:26 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:41:58 If so, then it's apparently only specified in terms of a lexical context, not the dynamic one. 15:43:11 (And I'm not seeing anything for special variables in its implementation guts.) 15:43:41 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:44:56 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.148.246] has joined #lisp 15:46:37 fisted [~fisted@unaffiliated/fisted] has joined #lisp 15:50:50 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 15:50:55 It should be possible to determine the current dynamic binding for a special variable in a frame, with a certain degree of uncertainty if the frame function binds the variable itself... 15:51:29 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has joined #lisp 15:51:30 (Said uncertainty is resolvable with sufficient debug information, which may or may not be dumped by the compiler at this point.) 15:53:28 Interesting, was there ever a Lisp implementation geared at maximum debuggability? 15:54:06 I find the idea intriguing. 15:54:29 deepfire: lisp machines were fairly debuggable 15:54:42 though unlike P-System they lacked offline debugging 15:55:03 -!- paradoja [~paradoja@18.Red-81-44-226.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:55:06 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.148.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:55:32 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 15:56:36 ok so mapcar is actually modifying the passed list in this example. how come? 15:56:55 frx pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120534 15:57:48 frx, it doesn't modify the list itself -- it does modify the values contained within the list. 15:58:16 felideon [~felideon@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:26 basho__ [~basho__@dslb-092-076-083-063.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:36 frx, the cons cells constituting the list still contain the original values, up to EQ-ness. 15:59:37 frx, yet /whatever is pointed at/ by the cons cells of the list is indeed modified. 16:01:04 I see, it's actually (setf (getf row :a) 99)) that is modifying the values? not mapcar 16:01:13 frx, right 16:01:46 ok makes sense 16:02:02 frx, by the way, since the freshly-consed copy of the list returned by mapcar is unused -- you'd be better off using mapc instead. 16:02:27 mapc is used to iterate over a list purely for effect. 16:02:43 this brings me to original question, why are they assigning *db* to the value returned by mapcar in Practical Common Lisp book? http://paste.lisp.org/display/120531 16:03:08 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:03:27 since (setf (getf .. )) changes the values in the original list anyway, why reassign it to the new list returned by mapcar 16:03:29 wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:55 frx, there's a catch 16:04:48 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75d7b9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:55 hi 16:05:03 frx, (let (a) (setf (getf a :a) 1) a) 16:05:28 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host181-175-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:05:50 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-fsphsnplxlafqtgd] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:06:04 frx, when you extend the list, the implementation is likely to cons the new elements on the head of the list 16:06:45 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:07:01 extend, as in add new elements? they are not doing that, they are just updating the values in the list 16:07:04 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:32 frx, if it's merely updating, then I fail to see why they do that. 16:07:33 _8david: ok, -W flags removed from the makefile. anything else ? 16:07:36 yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 16:11:36 -!- aerique [310225@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 16:11:47 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.148.246] has joined #lisp 16:13:31 sellout [~Adium@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 16:13:48 yes it is just updating existing fields, just like I was doing in the previous paste 16:14:03 odd 16:14:47 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.148.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:16:01 benny` [~benny@i577A2593.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:16:03 daniel [~daniel@p5082A2E1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:07 Rukowen [~Rukowen@222.253.106.124] has joined #lisp 16:16:56 milanj [~milanj_@109-92-126-186.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 16:17:29 -!- daniel__ [~daniel@p50829F41.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:19:16 Bronsa [~brace@host181-175-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:19:43 frx pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120535 16:19:59 compilable code above, maybe I am missing something 16:21:04 why is *db* set to list returned by mapcar in update function? 16:24:23 ... that -is- odd. 16:24:35 -!- mpereira [~mpereira@ec2-50-16-8-218.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Quit: Changing server] 16:25:52 Since the result is going to be a list of elements that are all either NIL or the value of RIPPED... 16:26:04 One for each row in *db*. 16:26:12 Oh. 16:26:14 why does Alexandria have copy-stream and copy-file? 16:26:15 No, my mistake. 16:26:36 That's somewhat misleading source arrangement... 16:27:11 the update function? 16:27:24 frx: The problem is that (SETF GETF) may not side-effect the structure of the original value of ROW. 16:27:43 why wouldn't it? 16:30:40 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 16:30:40 16:30:40 -!- names: ccl-logbot Bronsa milanj Rukowen daniel benny` sellout yvdriess ZabaQ prxq basho__ felideon dfox am0c LiamH fisted Spion__ lesshaste superflit juniorroy muhdick tauntaun Dodek ikki lanthan colazero tmh hramrach_ greaver tcr ephcon rmarianski milkpost stassats` Jacke billstclair Saturnation Areil Joreji Atomsk tronador_ macrobat_ insomniaSalt setmeaway2 lifeng Yuuhi frx kiuma tr3x Jasko jweiss bhyde hargettp_ dkasak gemelen ignas schoppenhauer lemoinem 16:30:40 -!- names: Gmind BlankVerse Xantoz splittist homie pchrist bobbysmith007 katesmith xan_ mrSpec Amadiro OODavo mishoo Kenjin Buganini oGMo aidalgol bzzbzz gravicappa ``Erik ehu oconnore misza222 nyef e-user Boxo ckelly scode mvilleneuve jdz Krystof cpach tritchey djinni` rasterbar thijso rsynnott strlen kanru Guest51336 _8david azaq23 nha varjag pjb schmrkc cmm timjstewart keyvan ebzzry Hunden ianmcorvidae|alt Khisanth theBlackDragon madnificent levi slyrus jsoft 16:30:40 -!- names: Obfuscate Euthydemus PissedNumlock EarlGray aoh s0ber antgreen billitch euangelion Yamazaki-kun Odin- OliverUv Fare jikanter vert2 df_aldur rme amb007 coffeemug rbancroft rootzlevel beach kpreid Xach ASau` ivan4th lnostdal McMAGIC-- emporas Ginei_Morioka Patzy xinming jayne AntiSpamMeta zakwilson albino trigen rotty cibs antifuchs vsync Tordek dostoyevsky ve Tristam fihi09`` wubo hugod luis shachaf rtoym blackwolf cYmen flow3r churib Pepe_ akimbo Ralith 16:30:40 -!- names: froggey lundis naryl Taggnostr2 Nshag silentbicycle Landr mathrick p_l|backup jwdunne rononovski_ poindont` gz` fe[nl]ix johs sykopomp borkamaniac cnl kerx The_Fellow snorble_ seangrove derrida peterhil` araujo hohum gnooth sonnym nowhereman cbbrowne bfein minion lisppaste rien tsuru clog CrazyEddy easyE quasisane metasyntax Guest49654 joast faulevel cpt_nemo derrotebaron jsnell V-ille clop nuba _2x2l tc kleppari joshe srcerer zbigniew mon_key abeaumont 16:30:40 -!- names: SpitfireWP euphidime Hun BrianRice prip peddie sid3k eno marienz arbscht npoektop qebab ineiros chrnybo` twem2 Salamander gonzojive1 museun stepnem dRbiG freiksenet elliottcable tessier quotemstr Quadrescence larva_ herbie_ Zhivago micro _3b PuffTheMagic housel tvaalen pok_ mgr erk krappie__ kloeri ejohnson [df] kencausey nullman` mtd_ rafusy pavlvs327 em spacebat z0d deepfire antoszka foom Posterdati acieroid ozzloy simontwo_ setheus kae algorist_ hyko 16:30:40 -!- names: phadthai andreer ilmari akkartik huehnts Bucciarati Draggor galdor j_king pkhuong jrockway Jabberwockey Kovensky |3b| lonstein pp206 krl fmu felipe frodef mal__ zfx yahooooo tychoish rabite incandenza adeht timchen1` TDT dcrawford yan_ k9quaint tomaw koollman guther Borbus tic cataska reb ecraven qsun jamief tty234 cmbntr guaqua Adrinael lianj jeekl ramus fds DrForr sigjuice_ mornfall Aisling Fade cods 16:30:49 tcr: exactly. Other than that they're both an easy :use... 16:31:22 splittist: I tend to :import-from cl-fad 16:31:36 specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:42 clhs getf 16:31:42 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_getf.htm 16:31:56 frx: The last paragraph of the description is relevant. 16:32:24 tcr: which is what I'll do. I can just see that I'll eventually :import-from most of it. (which is only 8 unconflicting symbols, so I won't die typing it (: ) 16:35:18 nyef I've been learning common lisp for a couple of hours so I don't really get the distinction. but basically, that setf is needed in update? 16:36:17 Yes. 16:36:56 -!- Gmind [~Nevermind@113.190.162.116] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:37:25 setf is a macro that can be expanded for any place: variable, slot and other 16:37:38 setf is a generalized assign 16:37:41 Basically, the MAPCAR constructs a new value for *db*, and thus *db* needs to be reset to that new value. 16:37:50 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 16:39:02 but how come I don't need to reassign foo here? (setf foo (list :a 10)) (setf (getf foo :a) 20) 16:39:03 For now, you can think of SETF as performing assignment. There will probably come a point where you need to learn more about how it works, but that can be deferred for now. 16:39:45 frx: Because (setf getf) affects FOO directly. 16:39:46 because it's not part of a list? 16:39:55 Right. 16:39:59 (Well, sortof.) 16:41:02 -!- hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:41:08 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 16:41:08 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 16:41:08 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 16:41:51 The fact that ROW is a parameter to the anonymous function within UPDATE and (SETF GETF) is performed on ROW means that the current value of *DB* may not be updated when ROW is updated. 16:42:21 I see 16:44:17 ok it kind of makes sense now 16:44:26 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host181-175-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:44:41 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 16:44:55 Bronsa [~brace@host181-175-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:45:08 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:45:10 I would probably have built the entire database differently, but it's a workable example for beginning lispers. 16:45:47 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-214-157.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:46:05 So, the executive summary is -- there are cases where the row is filled, and not merely updated? 16:46:15 hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has joined #lisp 16:46:27 -!- benny` is now known as benny 16:47:01 It's more that there is no guarantee that there aren't such cases. 16:47:11 And explicit permission for there to be such cases. 16:47:14 Ah, right. 16:48:17 -!- greaver [~jo@212.88.117.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:49:07 One could skip the SETF of *DB*, use MAPL instead of MAPCAR, and replace all use of ROW in the LAMBDA with (CAR ROW) to produce a guaranteed update-in-place version, however. 16:49:41 Proof left as an exercise for the reader. 16:54:03 <_8david> fe[nl]ix: iolib-tests says: Did 158 checks. Pass: 154 (97%) Skip: 0 ( 0%) Fail: 4 ( 2%) 16:54:25 mpereira [~mpereira@ec2-50-16-8-218.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 16:55:30 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-49-13-243.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:56:24 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:56:40 -!- Rukowen [~Rukowen@222.253.106.124] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:56:49 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host181-175-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:56:57 _8david: which ones fail ? 16:57:38 lichtblau pasted "iolib-tests sunos" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120536 16:58:18 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:58:47 _8david: does sunos have the user "root" ? 16:59:45 <_8david> yes 17:00:01 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:00:32 _8david: and what's its home directory ? 17:01:54 *nyef* wouldn't be surprised if root's home directory were /. 17:01:59 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-217-144.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:02:14 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:03:02 actually it is 17:03:08 iirc 17:03:14 <_8david> fe[nl]ix: it's /root, but %getpwnam-r returns NIL; I'll need to investigate further 17:03:28 you /root was late addition, afaik 17:03:47 nyef btw you said it's a misleading source arrangement, how would you rewrite it to be more readable? 17:03:56 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 17:04:12 HG` [~HG@dslb-084-061-247-023.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:44 Bronsa [~brace@host181-175-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:05:41 <_8david> fe[nl]ix: http://gitorious.org/~lichteblau/libfixposix/lichteblau-libfixposix/commits/sunos http://gitorious.org/~lichteblau/iolib/lichteblau-iolib/commits/sunos 17:06:03 it took me a while to figure what that function is actually doing. lambda is returning the updated row 17:07:20 does OSX have c++ in $PATH ? 17:07:56 frx: I'd have put a newline after "row)". 17:08:00 interesting, SunOS doesn't have struct dirent ? 17:08:34 -!- mpereira [~mpereira@ec2-50-16-8-218.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:08:50 fe[nl]ix: OSX has c++. 17:09:05 (It's in /usr/bin/c++) 17:09:41 <_8david> it doesn't have the member d_type in struct dirent 17:09:49 mpereira [~mpereira@ec2-50-16-8-218.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 17:11:02 -!- mpereira [~mpereira@ec2-50-16-8-218.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Client Quit] 17:11:13 _8david: ok, I'll keep that in mind 17:11:21 <_8david> e.g., I think an extra call to stat is always needed. 17:11:43 <_8david> s/e.g./i.e/ 17:12:15 mpereira [~mpereira@ec2-50-16-8-218.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 17:14:12 <_8david> Regarding the pragma: My understanding is that solaris cc supports c99, but #pragma once isn't c99. 17:14:34 -!- jikanter [~jordan@66.146.192.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:14:38 _8david: that's correct, it's a nice GNU extension 17:16:20 Are there any call graphing tools for CLs? 17:16:40 deepfire: To what extent? 17:17:01 deepfire: Depending on what you're after, even if there aren't such tools it might not be hard to throw something together. 17:17:15 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.33.151.255] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:18:13 nyef, hmm, true.. slime-who-calls does base itself on something, after all.. 17:18:27 _8david: ok, I'll check those commits when I get home 17:18:30 thanks :) 17:19:06 -!- ckelly [~ckelly@biop230.leidenuniv.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:19:18 What's the easiest way to get interactive arbitrary interactive graph manipulation on the screen? 17:19:44 <_8david> fe[nl]ix: cool. (I haven't backported to Linux yet though.) 17:19:44 Either CLIM or interfacing to dotty, probably. 17:20:18 -!- borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:21:36 I keep writing programs that grow too large for my head, and planning refactoring effectively becomes impossible. 17:21:49 I clearly need something to aid myself. 17:23:42 urandom__ [~user@p548A482D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:23:43 Incremental refactoring, to start with. 17:24:50 -!- EarlGray [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 17:24:54 Keeping better control of abstraction layers, possibly. 17:25:04 EarlGray [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:13 netfrog [~user@2.54.80.2] has joined #lisp 17:25:17 That only get me so far. 17:25:29 *gets 17:25:49 I find that while I occasionally wish I had some better tools for working with larger source systems, it is rare in the extreme that I find myself badly out-of-depth with my own projects. 17:25:55 -!- lesshaste [~lesshaste@87-194-206-189.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:26:02 In fact, my style is constant refactoring, which is painful enough by itself. 17:26:47 Which suggests that either I have a good set of tools and practices already, or that my projects don't get so large as to decohere in that fashion. 17:26:58 deepfire: are you factoring too much? or are you trying to accommodate more requirements than perhaps you should? 17:27:34 hargettp_, I have an afwul short-term memory and I pursue minutia relentlessly. 17:27:49 I get massive refactoring projects out of something you'd consider whims. 17:28:16 So, focus model issues? 17:28:18 deepfire: it would appear you understand you're own weaknesses :) 17:28:24 *your own 17:28:57 deepfire: an alternative is to just not refactor and move ahead. Learn to live with the karma. In lisp I find that this tends to be less of a problem than in other langs. 17:30:42 Heck, develop a good mental cost model for refactoring. 17:30:52 With desire, I've made a resolution to pursue features only. 17:32:15 nyef, that's what I think is happening in my head as of late.. 17:32:30 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d003bbf.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:24 Still the fact is, despite all refactoring, desire is barely comprehensible for me, by now. 17:34:34 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-50-127-150.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:20 deepfire: i presume it is of the same kind as premature optimization. Some things are wanted rather irationally, and speed is quite often the most obvious. Neatness and elegance of design is ofter another frequent one. 17:39:20 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:40:25 -!- Hunden [~Hunden@e180103059.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:40:50 prxq, as far as I perceive it, it's defensive programming against complexity 17:41:33 If I'm understanding myself correctly, I preventively try to reduce future complexity costs. 17:44:56 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:46:54 mattrepl [~mattrepl@204.14.152.118] has joined #lisp 17:47:19 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-067.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:48:04 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw80ff6653.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:48:20 That's not possible in the general case. 17:48:40 deepfire: then you might be underestimating CL's duct tapish nature :-) In C/C++ this is usually a much, much bigger issue. 17:48:44 It's only really possible when you already know how the system is going to evolve over time. 17:49:45 nyef, I'm painfully aware of that.. 17:49:45 wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:00 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:50:16 *prxq* still uses the gnuplot bindings he wrote as a newbie 17:50:53 prxq, I keep having over-my-head problems and I concentrate on refactoring for complexity reduction -- I don't see where underestimation of anything comes into the picture.. 17:51:10 ... I'm not sure that any of my newbieistic code is still in use. 17:51:24 deepfire: what is your application domain? 17:52:04 prxq, desire is a package management substrate, in the way CLIM is an UI substrate. 17:52:19 deepfire: ah.... I see. 17:52:31 Actually, even wider than that, it's managing sources as well. 17:53:02 deepfire: ah, see? perhaps you have allowed your domain to encompass more than it should? 17:53:12 hargettp_, there's a problem 17:53:33 hargettp_, the holistic approach was the design goal since day one 17:53:38 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:53:54 I've kinda cursed myself in this way. 17:54:16 deepfire: but perhaps a phased approach might work better for you? that is, solve problems for a subset of the domain very well, then move onto another subset 17:54:48 *stassats`* still uses his first serious code 17:55:05 just had to update it due to protocol changes 17:55:30 OliverUv_ [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has joined #lisp 17:55:30 -!- OliverUv_ [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has quit [Client Quit] 17:56:02 hargettp_, it's hard to say if it's viable.. plus the core functionalities were all working to a meaningful extent at some points in the past 17:57:47 deepfire: but if are unable to maintain your own code...does it matter that it all worked in the past? :) 17:58:19 hargettp_, it's not that it's entirely dysfunctional, but it's keeping me from being satisfactorily productive 17:58:40 deepfire: that sounds like you have an issue with priorities 17:58:42 deepfire: I wonder if a bit of modularization, with clear interfaces between modules might help you tackle your problem 17:59:03 hargettp_, definitely 17:59:11 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 17:59:16 -!- splittist [~splittist@59-168.203-62.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 17:59:18 deepfire: oh, and unit tests 17:59:29 hargettp_, however the distraction and the additional resources are a heavy toll per se 17:59:42 azaq231 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 17:59:45 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:59:48 deepfire: keeps you honest, so that you KNOW when you just broke an unrelated FOOO when you changed BAR 18:00:09 deepfire: distraction? 18:00:25 The problem with unit tests and modularisation, is that I keep changing things too fast. 18:01:19 -!- lanthan [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:01:20 I've got sort of intermodular APIs, to the extent where it's stable, but the rest only evolves. 18:01:29 spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-111-135.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:01:31 *only just evolves 18:01:48 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has joined #lisp 18:02:44 deepfire: focus? :) 18:02:56 The evolution is due to the necessary model adjustments. 18:03:09 slyrus: herep 18:03:33 minion: memo for slyrus: Finally took the three minutes to merge in your pull request. 18:03:33 Remembered. I'll tell slyrus when he/she/it next speaks. 18:03:57 Wherever I stare, I see deficiencies which must be addressed, sooner or later. 18:04:08 -!- netfrog [~user@2.54.80.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:04:22 ..at the model level 18:04:34 Which keeps the refactoring churn going. 18:04:57 Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:05:02 deepfire: focus, and prioritize. You can't change everything all the time. :) 18:05:04 It's a self-perpetuating problem, which has no real solution, AFAICT. The problem is just too big. 18:05:06 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:05:16 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-xdweagkzysmnowzd] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:05:32 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:05:40 deepfire: or solution too big? 18:05:41 deepfire: the package management one? Might well be. 18:05:58 prxq, not just package, but source management and development support 18:06:07 Plus automated testing and distribution. 18:06:22 sounds like a system of everything 18:06:45 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-169-177.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:06:47 I've had buildbot with 200+ packages running, at some point. 18:07:39 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-152-180.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:07:46 It sounds impossible, but it worked, converting all those upstreams to git, buildtesting them and emitting a pretty status on the web. 18:10:11 netfrog [~user@p11811120.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 18:14:02 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:15:16 But I did make a "features only" resolution fairly recently. 18:16:09 koning_robot [~user@s5597d50c.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #lisp 18:17:53 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 18:19:46 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-1-27.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:19:47 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@122.169.80.65] has joined #lisp 18:19:47 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@122.169.80.65] has quit [Changing host] 18:19:47 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 18:22:26 -!- netfrog [~user@p11811120.orange.net.il] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:22:46 Ragnaroek [~Adium@p5B0C50FC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:50 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:26:26 CallToPower [~CallToPow@s15229144.onlinehome-server.info] has joined #lisp 18:27:39 -!- cnl [~cnl@78.31.74.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:29:29 jokoon [~zonax@feu30-1-82-242-58-229.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:05 jdz [~jdz@host163-105-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:36:04 youguy [~youguy@84.125.134.238.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 18:40:17 deepfire: and then you went all second system on it? 18:41:41 prxq, I'm fumbling in the metaspace of decision choices right now. Hopefully I can regain my orientaishun. 18:42:15 I hope that this phrase made even less sense than it did for me! 18:42:25 waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-5d87f593.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:48 Hunden [~Hunden@e180103059.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:43:32 prxq, typically I deliver, when faced production requirements. 18:44:27 But these entail somewhat restricted problem domains. 18:45:00 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-63-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:21 Breadth vs. depth vs. common paths is what beats me in open-ended ones. 18:46:29 -!- youguy [~youguy@84.125.134.238.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 18:47:40 the only remedy I know for this is JFDI. CL is helpful because it tends not to punish bad design decisions all that harshly 18:49:10 Another problem is that being somewhat lonely doesn't help the motivation. 18:49:35 Motivation management is a separate issue.. 18:49:52 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-63-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:50:18 I keep running myself against problems I can barely tackle alone, and more likely actually unable than otherwise. 18:50:28 -!- rootzlevel [~hpd@188-195-186-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:50:33 -!- jokoon [~zonax@feu30-1-82-242-58-229.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:50:35 I'm cursed or something. 18:51:03 prxq: You probably don't need this, but I updated the docs for oct a bit. See trac.common-lisp.net/oct/wiki. 18:51:35 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:52:39 rtoym: By the way, what caused you to encounter the issue with ABS on ccl? 18:53:22 rme: I think I was running the tests for oct with ccl. 18:53:39 All tests pass except two. 18:55:54 deepfire: perhaps try more bottom-up development. When doing bottom-up, you should ensure the bases work, so there's a greater chance of success. 18:56:17 deepfire: just take care of the interfaces, and avoid changing them. 18:56:45 rtoym: I added dead simple tests to ccl's test suite for the bugs you reported; I was considering looking for better ones. I'm looking at the oct tests now, but perhaps the simple tests will be adequate. 18:57:21 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:39 rme: I think the simple examples in the bug report will catch most of the errors you might make. 18:58:03 pjb, I'm doing a lot of bottom up. The problem is that the bottoms are pretty volatile, because I'm not good enough at choosing them. 18:58:05 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.221.7.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:58:47 kushal [~kdas@114.143.167.5] has joined #lisp 18:58:47 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.167.5] has quit [Changing host] 18:58:47 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 18:58:54 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 18:59:18 xinming [~hyy@122.238.74.57] has joined #lisp 18:59:40 pjb, I'm seeing enough volatility of bottoms, that planning is perceived as futile. 19:00:09 frx pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120540 19:00:29 what am I doing wrong? 19:01:03 frx: returning a macroexpansion that references the variable OP. 19:01:34 frx: see your third argument to FORMAT. did you mean ',op? 19:02:01 ahh 19:02:20 removing ', did it, thanks 19:02:41 When in doubt, use macroexpand. 19:02:42 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:03:22 when in doubt, write functions: (defun apply-operators (operators arguments) (mapcar #'funcall operators arguments)) 19:03:50 Yeah, that's even better! 19:03:52 the call wouldn't be as sexy though :) 19:04:14 it wouldn't be as limited 19:04:34 -!- Areil [~Areil@113.172.53.111] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:04:40 (apply-operators '(#'+ #'* #'min #'max) "(1 2 3 4)) vs (apply-operators (+ * min max) (1 2 3 4)) 19:04:54 in what way it would be less limiting? 19:05:02 no, (apply-operators '(+ * min max) '(1 2 3 4)) 19:05:12 oh? 19:05:14 not too bad 19:05:42 (would my syntax even work? ) 19:05:45 frx: no. 19:05:46 no 19:06:02 ok going back to reading my book :) 19:06:02 (list #'+ #'* ...) would 19:07:04 frx: and it's limited to operators and values known at macroexpansion time 19:13:53 okay 19:15:04 I am wondering why your function doesn't seem to work as it should? 19:15:09 it looks like it should 19:15:30 let me paste 19:16:12 killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 19:16:19 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-53-100.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:16:24 frx: it calls each successive op with each successive arg, which is not what your macro does 19:16:26 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:16:45 awesome-o [~anonymous@208.74.177.139.static.etheric.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:48 ah right 19:17:09 (defun foo (ops args) (mapcar (lambda (op) (funcall op args)) ops)))))) or similar 19:17:18 apply op args, rather 19:18:41 yes that worked, nice 19:20:58 And now for something completely different : (defun foo (ops args) (loop for op in ops collect (apply op args))) 19:21:02 cnl [~cnl@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 19:22:34 that is so sexy, you're making me fall in love with lisp 19:24:44 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75d7b9.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:24:45 that's not completely different! now, something more: (mapcar #'apply operators (make-list (length operators) :initial-element arguments)) 19:25:21 Seems a little redundant. 19:25:44 def foo(ops, args): return [ op(*list(args)) for op in ops ] -- it's not much different in Python 19:25:59 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:26:07 maybe s/list/tuple/, though 19:26:26 enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-76-245-62-252.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:04 The point being -- this is basic functional programming, available in most modern 'scripting' languages. 19:27:12 -!- akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-123-094.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:27:13 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-63-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:05 youguy [~youguy@89.pool85-56-107.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 19:29:05 yeah probably. I come from C++ and Java though. 19:29:43 eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 19:30:07 and I dabbled in perl a bit 19:30:44 I'm sure one could produce a very similar snippet in Perl. 19:31:13 splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 19:31:14 Yes, the important thing is that if you think you like Lisp, you're ignorant. 19:32:20 This channel is secretly about telling you that Lisp is no better than anything else. 19:32:26 alama [~alama@a79-169-93-235.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 19:32:38 hey, i'm smug, not ignorant! 19:32:52 -!- Atomsk is now known as ace4016 19:33:17 This is quite true, you don't really understand something until you learn to hate it. 19:33:20 mattrepl_ [~mattrepl@204.14.152.118] has joined #lisp 19:34:04 -!- mpereira [~mpereira@ec2-50-16-8-218.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:34:14 Right, but the difference is that the parts of CL you have to avoid for hate, are much much smaller than the parts of C++ you have to avoid... 19:34:24 or at least get mildly annoyed by its limitations (: 19:34:30 then learn to work around them (; 19:34:46 Basically, CL is a city with a cementary you try to avoid, while C++ is that city with zombies flooding all the streets. 19:34:46 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@204.14.152.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:34:47 -!- mattrepl_ is now known as mattrepl 19:35:03 mpereira [~mpereira@ec2-50-16-8-218.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 19:35:17 portland cementary? 19:35:22 pjb for the analogy win! 19:35:50 hahaha 19:35:54 Brainzzzz! 19:36:14 xach lol,sounds like ##c. nearly every regular there hates the language they spend hours discussing every day 19:36:20 tmh: i guess they need them to compile templates 19:36:59 frx, it's not always that people have the liberty to choose the language they work with, unfortunately. 19:37:13 *p_l|backup* liked his CL=SSBN analogy, but the "city with cemetery" fits 19:37:16 *stassats`* loves Lisp passionately 19:37:54 "all you haters close my parenthesis!" 19:37:59 stassats`, I'd love it even more if there were provisions for static typing. 19:38:23 A statically typable subset of CL would be nice. 19:38:28 well, there kinda are, just not enforced... 19:38:39 Qi manages it on top of CL 19:39:23 *stassats`* smells some analogy between "static" and "cemetery", but dodges it 19:39:40 Haskell kinda did it on top of CL as well :P 19:40:05 Turing allows that 19:40:34 deepfire: so, all you need is SMOP 19:40:52 -!- youguy [~youguy@89.pool85-56-107.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:40:54 stassats`, that's what everybody needs.. 19:41:05 I'm not that unique. 19:41:07 Turing! I didn't know anyone outside of Canada knew about that. 19:41:23 <[df]> I keep meaning to look into http://www.liskell.org/ 19:41:33 [df], there's also Lisk 19:41:52 hello lispers 19:42:29 [df], http://chrisdone.com/posts/2010-11-25-lisk-lisp-haskell.html 19:42:48 [df]: it's designed so that neither a true lisper, nor a true haskeller would touch your code 19:43:10 What a jarring kind of conservatism.. 19:43:12 reminds me of parenscript (; 19:43:13 I'd like to see the Venn diagram for that. 19:43:15 (which isn't necessarily a bad thing) 19:43:31 <[df]> deepfire: is that haskell with a lisp preprocessor? 19:43:46 [df], no, not quite 19:44:14 [df], it's closer to a true marriage between them 19:44:27 akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-123-094.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:44:47 <[df]> I like many things about haskell, but I can't be having with all this syntax and having to remember precedence rules 19:45:02 There's that, yes.. 19:46:41 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:46:54 There's a passing charm in the additional terseness of syntaxful languages, but it just that -- passing. 19:46:58 [df]: don't, just write (+) 1 2 19:47:02 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:47:40 (a good way of fending off haskellers too) 19:48:10 sellout1 [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:16 <[df]> stassats`: there's still precedence to worry about 19:48:26 <[df]> well, I guess I could just put parens around everything to make it explicit 19:48:39 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A482D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:48:48 deepfire: not necessarily passing... it depends on the language and the task 19:48:57 Soulman1 [~knute@250.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:49:00 thre are cases where APL in hands of experienced person shines 19:49:05 urandom__ [~user@p548A482D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:17 -!- sellout [~Adium@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:50:57 ckelly [~ckelly@microgravity.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 19:51:14 -!- ckelly [~ckelly@microgravity.xs4all.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 19:51:23 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:51:46 I'm writing a function that generates a timestamp to append to file names on write to preserve uniqueness. Currently the resolution of the timestamp is only down to the second. Id like to take the 2nd value of sb-ext:get-time-of-day to add additional resolution But it'd be nice to knock that value down to to some smaller representation e.g. an (unsigned-byte 16|8). The question is (vaguely) approx. how fast can a lisp like SBCL write 19:51:46 smallish file to disk? 19:52:43 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:52:57 jokoon [~zonax@feu30-1-82-242-58-229.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:58 -!- splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:54:03 super fast 19:54:12 killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 19:54:33 like #xffff files per sec fast? 19:55:09 How small? 19:55:11 let me test 19:55:58 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:56:06 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:56:40 10-100k ??? 19:57:50 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:57:56 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-72-226-124-205.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:58:01 mon_key: I'd suspect that streams at such sizes might be a bottleneck, but you can use sb-posix or iolib (assuming iolib included I/O primitives...) 19:58:07 ckelly [~ckelly@microgravity.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 19:58:42 mon_key: there are more reliable ways to preserve uniqueness. 19:59:01 p_l|backup: :) Not really worried about _gaining_ speed just want the flname to be unique 19:59:04 :if-exists nil/:error springs to mind. 19:59:17 -!- vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:59:53 if-exists :error basically translates to O_EXCL|O_CREAT, right? 19:59:56 Xach: no doubt but giving a unique(ish) timestamp has some merit 20:00:08 i can write about 23k files per second to a tmpfs 20:00:20 p_l|backup: in sbcl, exactly that. 20:00:37 so #xFFFF is certainly possible 20:00:46 stassats`: Thanx a bunch. Out of curiousity what size files? 20:01:00 smallish, "foo\n" 20:01:46 mon_key: btw, split the filenames into multiple components, so that you have two/three levels of directories 20:02:10 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:02:16 tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has joined #lisp 20:02:19 data/<1st part>/<2nd part> or more, depending on behaviour 20:02:41 loxs [~loxs@2002:4e5a:7cb3:0:224:d7ff:fe0a:73b4] has joined #lisp 20:03:11 -!- loxs [~loxs@2002:4e5a:7cb3:0:224:d7ff:fe0a:73b4] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:03:45 p_l|backup: :) else an ext2/3 will probably get nasty looking inode distribution? 20:03:51 -!- setmeaway2 [setmeaway3@118.45.149.204] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:04:07 setmeaway2 [setmeaway3@118.45.149.204] has joined #lisp 20:04:18 well, ext2/ext3 might 20:04:30 but they weren't ever the most performant filesystems... :P 20:04:40 stassats`: Thanks again. If you don't mind me asking what kind of disk/bus? 20:04:48 (and by god, ext2/3 is horrible to read without debugfs) 20:04:55 mon_key: it's a tmpfs, so it's in memory 20:05:14 ! sorry. stupid question 20:05:34 loxs [~loxs@2002:4e5a:7cb3:0:224:d7ff:fe0a:73b4] has joined #lisp 20:06:34 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:08:27 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:49 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:11:34 milkpost [~milkpost@66.102.210.93] has joined #lisp 20:11:50 Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-250-26-146.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:05 Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-72-226-124-205.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:12:27 mon_key: an about 40k when creating from several threads 20:13:07 So, looks like using the usec of sb-ext:get-time-of-day isn't at all viable. It returns ~550 duplicates per 1000 samples. 20:13:13 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 20:13:48 unless I'm doing it wrong... 20:14:28 mon_key: you're calling it in a loop, and it's giving you the same answer a lot of times in a row and then jumping ahead? 20:14:48 foom: i'll paste 20:15:47 lanthan [~ze@p54B7CB21.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:29 -!- lanthan [~ze@p54B7CB21.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:18:36 lanthan [~ze@p54B7CB21.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:59 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:19:07 -!- vert2 [vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-oqocesgblbmnolka] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:19:14 vert2 [vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-tdwzssglsrofxpta] has joined #lisp 20:20:09 vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 20:22:42 mon_key pasted "counting sb-ext:get-time-of-day usecs per second" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120544 20:24:45 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:29 -!- HG` [~HG@dslb-084-061-247-023.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:26:58 jnoos [~setmeaway@118.45.149.204] has joined #lisp 20:27:02 is #b in #b1010 a macro of some sort? could it be written in lisp if it didn't exist? 20:27:06 mon_key: investigate nth-value 20:27:39 tr3x: #b is a standard read-macro 20:27:58 -!- setmeaway2 [setmeaway3@118.45.149.204] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:28:01 tr3x: if CL didn't have it, you could add it with set-dispatch-macro-character 20:28:24 thanks, looking that up 20:28:30 CL has a programmable reader. Not all Lisps do. 20:29:16 Xach: thanks! 20:30:35 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 20:31:54 tr3x: there are 3 types of macros specified by standard - "standard" macros that operate on Lisp forms, compiler macros that are provided for compiler to replace code (useful for optimizations) and reader macros, that operate on text read by reader 20:33:22 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 20:35:43 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:35:43 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-63-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:36:53 dmytrish [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:10 -!- EarlGray [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:38:07 -!- misza222 [~misza@84.23.125.91.gr6.adsl.brightview.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:39:27 beach: so now the question is how much stuff do I cram into the core opticl API and how much do I keep in separate packages/systems? 20:39:27 slyrus, memo from gigamonkey: Finally took the three minutes to merge in your pull request. 20:39:36 e.g. k-means clustering of pixels 20:39:40 thanks again gigamonkey 20:41:22 slyrus: I'd put everything into opticl, including forking all image-reading libraries :) 20:41:37 heh 20:41:54 quicklisp means I don't have to do that 20:42:28 of course it is a bit silly to depend on two different libraries for PNGs (one for reading, one for writing) 20:42:48 it would be nice if we could get some of the libraries to standardize on some protocols... 20:43:32 and then simply have them conditionally export a copy of the basic protocol if none was loaded earlier 20:43:33 slyrus: IMO a fork wouldn't be about availability, but integration into opticl 20:43:55 fe[nl]ix: ok, but there pretty well integrated as it is 20:44:40 Abezethibou [~user@92.45.237.177] has joined #lisp 20:44:41 *slyrus* reduced the opticl library count by one today by getting gigamonkey to accept his monkeylib-binary-data changes 20:44:47 hooray for small achievements 20:45:02 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@75-150-231-161-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has left #lisp 20:45:29 and hooray for lunch, I'll catch y'all later 20:45:32 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [SeaMonkey 2.1b3pre/20110310003232]] 20:46:39 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 20:46:49 MORE DEPENDENCIES! 20:46:50 -!- Abezethibou [~user@92.45.237.177] has quit [Client Quit] 20:48:20 -!- Spion__ [~spion@77.29.254.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:48:23 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 20:49:10 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:49:31 nome [~user@c-98-249-30-223.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:29 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:35 Xach: they feed the QL machine? :D 20:51:03 -!- loxs [~loxs@2002:4e5a:7cb3:0:224:d7ff:fe0a:73b4] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:53:17 the insidious Dependency Zero 20:53:51 -!- Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:55:23 -!- nome is now known as register` 20:55:59 -!- register` is now known as nome 20:56:31 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:58:15 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:59:56 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:00:54 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:03:04 cheezus [~Adium@76-10-163-32.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 21:03:47 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:03:51 yvdriess [~Beef@83.101.33.79] has joined #lisp 21:04:04 mon_key annotated #120544 "using nth-value and map for brevity" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120544#1 21:05:35 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:07:30 -!- jdz [~jdz@host163-105-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:08:37 -!- jokoon [~zonax@feu30-1-82-242-58-229.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:08:43 mon_key: what do you feel that code demonstrates? 21:13:27 Xach: Assuming I do it right, it _may_ demonstrate that using the vanilla usec value of sb-ext:get-time-of-day is not a viable addtion to timestamp based filenames b/c there will be at least ~500 duplicate usec values per 1000 samples and one can (as stassats suggests) write far more than 1000 files to disk per second. One would need to frob the usec stamp value further to generate a more uniquely unique timestamp. 21:14:43 mon_key: your code doesn't sample the usec value, though. 21:14:57 or rather, it samples the low bits, not the high bits, which seems weird to me. 21:14:59 <_3b> mon_key: how long does that 1000 sample take though? 21:15:04 wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:53 Xach: the point of taking the low bits was to append them to the existing timestamp-for-file-name 21:16:17 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-63-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:25 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.17.75] has joined #lisp 21:16:39 _3b: If loop can't call out to the SAP faster than 1000 times per second its irrelevant :P 21:16:57 <_3b> mon_key: other way around... 21:17:02 <_3b> runs in ~0.002 sec here 21:17:16 <_3b> including the list stuff at the end 21:18:49 mon_key: are you looking for a random value or a time-based value? 21:20:54 <_3b> without the list stuff, looks like i can run that loop at around 400000 iterations/sec, probably not representavie of file creation on most systems 21:21:22 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:21:35 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:21:35 Xach: I was looking for a way to keep the thing entirely time-based (mostly for aesthetic reasons). Putting a random on the end doesn't convey anthing _more_ meaningful than the usec... 21:22:16 <_3b> it might convey 'unique' better than 2 usec values that happen to be the same :) 21:22:24 mon_key: the rollover rate of the low 8 or 16 bits of the usec seems like it's not much better than random. 21:22:58 _3b: If i run it 10k times with the stuff on the end i get the same ratios. 21:23:24 is your program going to be the only one that creates files in that directory? 21:23:33 if so, you should use a disambiguating counter. 21:23:44 _3b: avoiding collisions was the intent. 21:23:51 <_3b> mon_key: i mean you could be sampling fast enough to sample twice in 1 usec 21:24:26 antifuchs: Indeed like a "~N" version number :P 21:24:29 <_3b> question is whether you are trying to test if the timer is high enough resolution, or if you have enough bits of it 21:24:52 well yeah, the Nth file you created in that usec 21:25:00 or possibly in that second 21:25:41 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 21:25:54 <_3b> if you sample 10k times in <64k usec, you have enough bits, but still might get duplicates due to sampling twice per timer tick 21:26:17 -!- oconnore [~eric@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:26:38 <_3b> while if you spread the 10k samples over a whole second, you might get duplicates due to truncating the high bits instead 21:28:24 _3b: I had initially assumed that the usec had enough resolution. Then I though well if its big enough what if we just knock off the high bits to get a "version number" per sec that was reasonably concise. Then i realize that (logand usec #xff) isn't enough because it is quite easy to write that many files per second in many situations. So i think what about (logand usec #xffff). Then I come to #lisp and ask what others might think a 21:28:24 reasonable lower bounds on writes is... 21:29:01 Hoornet [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has joined #lisp 21:29:07 *_3b* thinks actually counting files would be best, or using the whole usec value if you really want something time based 21:29:13 -!- Hoornet [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has quit [Client Quit] 21:29:42 <_3b> but if you write that fast, i'd expect filesystem to be a problem anyway :) 21:29:57 The whole usec value being values 0 or values 1 of sb-ext:get-time-of-day? 21:30:38 <_3b> looks like 1 21:31:12 *_3b* would expect portability problems with time based anyway though, so for best results you want a counter anyway 21:32:17 _3b: the 1 is not nearly enough on this 32bit system, at least for my "never have to worry about it" comfort zone :) 21:32:32 <_3b> ? 21:32:59 oconnore [~eric@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:49 *_3b* is assuming usec value returned is always less than 1 sec 21:35:52 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host181-175-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:37:00 pnkfelix1 [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:28 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:37:38 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:37:50 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-63-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:38:50 davertron [~david@c-24-218-166-166.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:42:53 -!- cheezus [~Adium@76-10-163-32.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:44:02 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:48:43 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:49:32 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:49:32 ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has joined #lisp 21:49:43 Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 21:49:46 what's the diff between make-package and defpackage, and which should I use? 21:50:07 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-31-28-194.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 21:50:36 <_3b> defpackage is higher level, and is what you should generally use 21:50:45 ok. thx 21:50:57 <_3b> it is a macro that probably expands to calls to make-package and various other package manipulation routines 21:51:16 and has compile-time effects 21:51:18 is there a way to list packages? also, delete a package? 21:51:25 list-all-package, delete-package 21:51:29 *packages 21:51:31 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-32-14-244.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:51:55 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.66.60] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:52:08 can packages be nested? 21:52:41 -!- davertron [~david@c-24-218-166-166.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:52:48 unfortunately not 21:53:18 ok. guess it's more simple that way (at the cost of some power) 21:53:52 I don't think it'd particularly hard to change 21:54:09 it's more that the packge system came from the lisp machines, and each vendor had its own universe 21:54:14 is each package essentially a named symbol table then? 21:54:19 so a level-1 namespace was plenty 'nuff 21:54:52 <_3b> clhs 11.1.1 21:54:52 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_aa.htm 21:55:14 <_3b> ^ that says exactly what a package is (pretty much 'yes' though) 21:56:31 thx 21:56:54 Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:57:56 _3b: On my system it looks like the usec (the values 1 of sb-ext:get-time-of-day) is a 20bit number. So, the upper bounds of uniquely filenames with a timestamp is ~1,048,575 per second. 21:58:35 *_3b* would expect a bit less than that from usec, since there aren't quite that many in 1 sec anyway 21:59:08 mon_key: that's assuming that every call returns distinct values (: 21:59:23 <_3b> right, that's the other problem 21:59:47 cooper6581 [~cooper@APuteaux-651-1-205-2.w92-154.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:59:58 antifuchs: they don't (at all) _many_ dups @ 10000k 22:00:25 yeah, figures (: 22:00:41 In any event, time is slow as hell (: 22:00:42 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 22:00:56 <_3b> not too surprising on a fast machine in a tight loop 22:01:23 am I correct that in-package does not create a package if it doesn't yet exist? 22:01:46 ezakimak: correct! 22:01:50 ezakimak: use defpackage for that 22:01:55 <_3b> "If no such package already exists, an error of type package-error is signaled." 22:02:00 (I'm reading shapiro--which is slightly out-dated) 22:03:00 -!- Ragnaroek [~Adium@p5B0C50FC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:03:03 <_3b> in a loop just calling get-time-of-day, looks like i can get ~20 calls/usec on my desktop 22:03:39 am I understanding correctly that there are essentially two symbol tables--one for functions and one for everything else, and thus a symbol can be bound to none, one, or one of each at the same time? 22:03:51 <_3b> not exactly 22:03:53 Good morning everyone! 22:04:08 <_3b> symbols exist on their own, and can be used to name all sorts of things 22:04:22 <_3b> functions and variables have separate namespaces though 22:04:23 so how many bindings are possible on a single symbol? 22:04:51 <_3b> as do a few other things like type, go tags, etc 22:05:04 francogrex [~user@109.130.86.132] has joined #lisp 22:05:05 *_3b* doesn't remember the whole list, something like 7 or 8 in the spec 22:05:28 <_3b> and you can use a symbol to look things up in your own data structures as well 22:05:29 and each is independent, right? 22:05:41 <_3b> (including at compile time using macros or compiler macros) 22:05:45 you mean you can add bindings to a symbol? 22:06:04 ezakimak: you can set the symbol-function of a symbol, or the symbol-value of it 22:06:19 or do things with code that cause the symbol to have that meaning attached to it 22:06:28 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:06:29 (like go tags, lexically) 22:06:29 ok. I think maybe I'm getting ahead of myself--i should go back to reading :) 22:06:52 sounds good (: 22:06:52 I just can't get the info dumped into my head fast enough... 22:14:42 -!- azaq231 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:15:18 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:16:24 -!- basho__ [~basho__@dslb-092-076-083-063.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:22:44 -!- superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.148] has quit [Quit: superflit] 22:23:29 tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:23:37 sacho [~sacho@46.10.16.35] has joined #lisp 22:24:46 -!- koning_robot [~user@s5597d50c.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:26:07 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A482D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:27:18 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-128-236.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:57 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 22:32:07 pnq [~nick@ACA21B61.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 22:32:26 -!- felideon [~felideon@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:33:53 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@83.101.33.79] has left #lisp 22:34:16 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:34:57 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 22:37:13 davertron [~david@c-24-218-166-166.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:38:36 EOF-sensei [~aaron@dsl-173-206-247-23.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 22:38:42 (print (progn (setf herp "That bitch") (setf derp "...") (setf max "!") (concatenate 'string (concatenate 'string herp derp) (concatenate 'string (string-upcase herp) max)))) 22:39:32 ... undefined variable HERP. 22:39:35 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.86.132] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:40:01 nyef: going literal with undefined? :) 22:40:10 ezakimak: Here is another way of seeing it: Once you have first-class symbols, whenever you use symbols as keys in a hash table, you have a new namespace. The designers of CL took advantage of that to create a few standardized namespaces, but there is nothing magic about that. 22:41:45 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:41:46 p_l|backup: Why not? SBCL already is that literal about it. 22:42:18 nyef: what interpreter gave you that error? 22:42:32 herp not "herp" 22:43:22 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-32-14-244.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:52 EOF-sensei: What happened to your promise to stick to C and Python? 22:44:23 The attraction of lisp is irresistible. 22:44:29 Resistance is futile. 22:45:01 beach: promise? 22:45:04 _8david: ping 22:45:20 10.12.14:07:16:00 i'll stick with C and Python 22:45:27 // not a promise 22:45:35 and nice query 22:45:47 I came back to lisp 22:45:47 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:46:00 because I had been forced to learn some 22:46:02 and 22:46:06 now I love it 22:46:12 hmm 22:46:24 I also like spinach 22:46:34 on pizza 22:47:09 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Krystof 22:47:18 sorry for insulting the beauty entailed Lisp 22:47:19 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-53-100.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo] 22:49:24 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@66.102.210.93] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:49:36 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 22:50:55 Does there exist a C-to-lisp translator? 22:51:06 I was thinking the same thing 22:51:14 but the more you look at it 22:51:32 well 22:51:35 w'ev 22:51:41 leave that to imagination 22:52:06 I'd much rather have Lisp to x86/-64 assembly 22:52:32 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/80874f78751814a6 22:52:38 or at least a self-sufficient common lisp runtime 22:52:48 -!- spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-111-135.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: .] 22:52:50 EOF-sensei: What are you blabbing about? 22:52:58 there's KCL family (GCL and ECL) that translate lisp into C 22:53:09 but nothing working the othre way around 22:53:22 I doubt Zeta-C counts 22:53:31 <_3b> probably easier to just call compiled C code from lisp 22:53:32 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-53-100.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:53:35 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.148.136] has joined #lisp 22:53:56 Quadrescence: I disagree entirely with the comments in that doc 22:53:59 *_3b* expects calling c-translated-to-lisp code wouldn't be any easier, just slower 22:54:17 the majority of time goes into code a lot of the time 22:54:20 A C-to-lisp translator would make some pretty ugly lisp code. What would be the point? 22:54:37 bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:41 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:55:45 <_3b> EOF-sensei: sbcl, ccl, cmucl, etc compile lisp code to x86 and x8664 (among others) binaries, you could disassemble that to get x64/-64 assembly 22:56:28 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-53-100.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 22:56:34 hmm 22:57:02 truetrue 22:57:06 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 22:57:27 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:53 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d003bbf.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:00:07 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:00:11 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:00:23 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:00:36 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:01:47 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.148.136] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:04:07 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:04:17 -!- frx [~b2a0114f@ns1.smartcall.bg] has quit [Quit: bye] 23:04:31 -!- tr3x [~tr3x@178.160.17.79] has quit [Quit: bye] 23:07:50 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-110-228.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:55 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-110-228.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:08:43 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-110-228.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:09:04 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 23:09:05 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:11:05 rtoym: ping 23:11:30 fe[nl]ix: What's up? 23:11:38 milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 23:11:50 do you have access to a solaris 11 machine ? 23:11:56 or 10 23:12:16 Yeah, I have a solaris 10 sparc machine. What do you need? 23:12:39 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 23:12:51 rtoym: «getconf _POSIX_NAME_MAX /» and «getconf _POSIX_PATH_MAX /» 23:13:36 14 and 255, respectively. 23:14:24 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Client Quit] 23:14:28 can you create a file whose name is longer than 14 ? 23:14:35 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 23:14:59 Yes. 23:15:24 and getconf NAME_MAX / ? 23:15:26 touch 12345678901234567890 creates a file with the given name. 23:16:08 Uh, getconf NAME_MAX just gives a usage summary. 23:16:24 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:16:46 rtoym: you must have forgotten the second parameter 23:17:20 Oh. I thought that was a typo. :-) That returns 255 23:17:36 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 23:17:47 I left off the / for POSIX_NAME_MAX too. 23:17:51 14 afaik is the possible minimum 23:18:21 getconf doesn't like _POSIX_NAME_MAX / 23:18:22 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.148.136] has joined #lisp 23:18:23 p_l|backup: 14 is the historical value 23:18:35 dfox: yeah, for the s5 filesystem afaik 23:18:41 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 23:19:22 fe[nl]ix: I need to head out. If you need something else, ping me later, send me a memo, or send an email. 23:19:49 rtoym: no problem, I'll sort this out with lichtblau when he comes back 23:20:20 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Quit: eugu] 23:21:20 -!- Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:23:42 I may be mistaken, but ECL seems like a good basis for starting and new CL implementation... 23:23:57 Saturnation: I wouldn't go this way, personally 23:24:08 because? 23:24:09 *_3b* would start with sicl + sacla 23:24:59 *p_l|backup* considered making a public-domain (or MIT) bytecoded implementation, based on sacla/sicl/sbcl 23:25:15 and sicl looks even better :) 23:25:30 p_l|backup: Odd, I was just thinking about a bytecoded version of SBCL earlier today. 23:25:41 not trying to fight for dominance with SBCL, CCL or similar, but more geared towards small size, easily portable, strippable CL 23:25:58 <_3b> sicl and sacla are more or less intended for that purpose, so less work to extract existing implementation from them 23:26:07 hmm 23:26:11 <_3b> (neither is a complete CL though, so there is still lots of work to add on) 23:26:26 sbcl is nice 23:26:38 it's noticably faster than GCLISP 23:26:47 *Saturnation* is only just trying to get his head around how... 23:26:55 hahahahaha 23:27:11 they all state they're "geared toward high performance" 23:27:15 so 23:27:26 each in their respective domains 23:27:28 which one's better is anyone's guess 23:27:43 <_3b> well, you could actually try instead of guessing too :p 23:27:44 or benchmark 23:27:46 for a byte-compiling thing, clisp isn't doing badly, I guess 23:28:04 yeh 23:28:18 idunno 23:28:22 -!- cooper6581 [~cooper@APuteaux-651-1-205-2.w92-154.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:28:32 default environment might also vary slightly... 23:29:02 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:28 *Saturnation* should really concentrate on just doing the OneThing 23:29:31 -!- churib [~churib@95.156.194.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:29:37 yeh 23:29:42 well 23:29:50 rootlocus [~rootlocus@2402:1800:1:2801:226:4aff:fe09:eee2] has joined #lisp 23:29:50 the language is brutally simple 23:29:59 the environment is more complicated 23:31:08 I think it would be interesting to have dedicated LISt Processing hardware 23:31:11 again I mean 23:32:02 tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:32:14 Interesting, maybe, but it'd tend to suck, performancewise, compared to a good implementation on a stock CPU. 23:32:44 *_3b* thinks 'list processing' is to generic a task to justify dedicated hardware... either rely on economies of scale to make generic hardware fast, or make specifalized hardware for specialized tasks 23:32:57 <_3b> *specialized hardware 23:33:19 nyef: that's totally ass backward 23:33:20 Mmm. Was it Battyani who was doing the FPGA thing? 23:33:26 it would be inherently fastert 23:33:30 H4ns, I think 23:33:39 No, commercially. 23:33:45 then that's battyani (: 23:33:45 heh 23:33:58 H4ns was doing the FPGA replica of the CONS-style LispMs, yes. 23:34:00 how about lisp-to-cuda ? 23:34:25 Why is it that whenever I see "cuda", I think old-school Mac ADB? 23:34:38 ... might have been one of the ADB controller chips or something. 23:34:39 beach, thx--that was a pretty clear explanation 23:34:39 <_3b> ezakimak: i'd do cl to opencl, just for the confusing names :p 23:34:55 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:04 <_3b> (actually, i'd do *lisp or CMlisp if anything, but those are CL based, so close enough) 23:35:21 i'd actually be surprised that someone hasn't already done some lisp in cuda 23:35:31 I mean hardware management of Lisp using general-purpose computing circuits 23:35:32 several games have been written w/custom lisp engines 23:35:42 store everything as packed floats 23:35:42 what is the magic work for binding loop vars to VALUES? 23:35:50 <_3b> cl-gpu i think has a lisp->cuda of some sort 23:35:56 er. majic word 23:36:03 Battyani isn't making chips running lisp, though. AFAIK they use Lisp to make FPGA bitstreams that work as dedicated ICs to process the data 23:36:10 -!- fisted [~fisted@unaffiliated/fisted] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:36:14 <_3b> not sure if it is more than paren syntax for cuda or not though 23:36:14 mon_key: there is none. 23:36:18 darn 23:36:21 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483C02E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:36:22 mon_key: Not sure, but the worst-case scenario is to destructure the result of using multiple-value-list. 23:36:32 mon_key: you can destructure using for (x y z) = (multiple-value-list (values 1 2 3)) 23:36:35 ah, so it's been done (or at least started) 23:36:39 as for modern lisp machine... read about Azul systems 23:36:42 or use iterate (; 23:36:45 sbcl used to have an extension 23:36:47 And that's not such a bad scenario in SBCL, as I believe it will elide the list consing. 23:36:54 churib [~churib@95.156.194.105] has joined #lisp 23:37:00 p_l|backup: Thought they were JVMs? 23:37:07 <_3b> sacla LOOP special cases destructuring m-v-list 23:37:11 not quite sure if that ever made it into mainline but I thought that to be true 23:37:14 wonder if anyone has done verilog/vhdl via lisp 23:37:17 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:37:19 hmm 23:37:21 antifuchs, nyef: thanks 23:37:28 nyef: yes, but they show example of modern successful hardware dedicated to high-level language 23:37:49 nyef: their blog has many interesting bits of information about real-world issues they met 23:37:51 ezakimak: I wouldn't be so sure about it 23:38:01 _3b: does it get it right? :-) 23:38:06 I know and personally seen some code for that 23:38:15 ezakimak: Battyani, again. His company does custom designs for high-throughput network data processing based on FPGAs (thus verilog or vhdl) compiled via lisp from some domain-specific language. 23:38:15 (Lisp-generated VHDL 23:38:16 ) 23:38:37 Battyani's company does that, yes. 23:38:47 p_l|backup: Okay, sure, I'll give Azul that... And it's amazingly cool, as well. 23:38:55 very cool. 23:38:57 he means a Verilog/VHDL simulator methinks 23:39:02 <_3b> tcr: no idea, don't remember if i've actually tried it on that LOOP or not, since i don't have multiple-values in the lisp i use sacla LOOP with :) 23:39:02 schoppenhauer [~christoph@ppp-188-174-49-225.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 23:39:03 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@ppp-188-174-49-225.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Changing host] 23:39:03 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 23:39:19 p_l|backup: my old boss was an investor in Azul and back when they were getting started he invited a bunch of his former employees for a tour and a demo. 23:39:31 bummer I really love CL's way of handling multiple values 23:39:45 At the end if their explanation of their fancy hardware tricks, I said, "Oh, so you guys have reinvented the Lisp machine." 23:39:57 dmiles [~dmiles@75-175-110-228.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:40:12 gigamonkey: did they invite you to a job interview then? (; 23:40:25 Heh. I'm suddenly reminded of the Explorer III project fiasco. 23:40:29 antifuchs: ;-) 23:40:31 carlo_h [~carlo@ppp59-167-2-5.lns1.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:40:39 _3b: what is "sacla loop" 23:40:49 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-110-228.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:41:03 <_3b> mon_key: the LOOP implementation from the SACLA project (a CL in CL) 23:41:09 "We don't have it emulating a single instruction, but let's try to turn it into a standalone PC OS that runs an Explorer disk image." 23:41:21 _3b: OK 23:41:26 <_3b> mon_key: http://homepage1.nifty.com/bmonkey/lisp/sacla/index-en.html 23:42:04 as for modern LispM... what do you guys (especially the compiler guys) think of such a design: Register-rich, in-pipeline barrel shifter and/or tagged arithmetic, and the standard calling sequence supporting in-register multiple-values both as parameters and as return values, with sliding variable-sized register window? 23:42:10 <_3b> as opposed to the MIT LOOP used in many lisp implementations, (or sicl's loop, clisp's, etc) 23:42:58 *tcr* used RESTART-BIND lately for fun and profit. Getting there to have a perfect use case for all symbols in CL. 23:43:17 austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:43:17 p_l|backup: That's at least partly MMIX, isn't it? 23:43:26 nyef: partly 23:43:28 Also I tried to use CLOS and I'm not sure I liked the result :-) 23:43:40 -!- carlo_h [~carlo@ppp59-167-2-5.lns1.mel4.internode.on.net] has left #lisp 23:43:45 nyef: calling sequence and amount of registers from MMIX, yes :) 23:44:06 tagged arithmetic is a feature of SPARC ISA, while barrel shifter is in ARM 23:44:09 Being able to pre-shift and/or post-shift arithmetic results could be cool, but... 23:44:23 it's kind of nice to be able to split control flow across methods and auxiliary methods but it seems to have a bit of an obfuscating touch to me 23:44:54 nyef: ? 23:45:20 I'm just trying to think this through. 23:46:03 so is sacla an implementation of cl in cl? 23:46:20 I've been wondering lately what the market would be for a book about the history of computer instruction sets. 23:46:21 <_3b> ezakimak: parts of CL, not quite complete 23:46:40 Show how folks actually programed machines from back in the 40s up to today. 23:46:44 are the parts written so far correct? 23:46:58 cause I've actually thought about trying that myself to help me understand the underneath 23:46:58 *Saturnation* has been under the impression that gigamonkey's next book would be an assembly language book 23:47:11 may be informative to look through it 23:47:16 The problem isn't so much the CPUs these days as that the state of the art in lisp compilation is, apparently, SBCL, which is a late-80s/early-90s compiler without a number of optimizations that were in the '86 version of the dragon book. 23:47:23 gigamonkey: forget instruction sets, show the OS environments, impact of macro assembly, various languages, *real* multilanguage environments, etc. 23:47:23 <_3b> ezakimak: i don't remember running into many bugs in the parts i use 23:47:27 would love to see the source code for the early patch cord systems :) 23:47:36 Heck, possibly not even some applicable stuff from the '79 version of the dragon book. 23:48:25 -!- Soulman1 [~knute@250.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 23:48:45 <_3b> ezakimak: see also sicl, which is a more recent attempt at a CL in CL (and still under development, so if you add some more pieces you can contribute to the project :) 23:49:25 carlo_h [~carlo@ppp59-167-2-5.lns1.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:43 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has quit [Quit: pa bye] 23:50:07 -!- carlo_h [~carlo@ppp59-167-2-5.lns1.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:50:13 nyef: hmmm? Any suggestions on where to look? :) 23:50:15 fisted [~fisted@unaffiliated/fisted] has joined #lisp 23:50:19 carlo_au [~carlo@ppp59-167-2-5.lns1.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:50:30 For what would you be looking? 23:51:01 (Did I say '79? '77.) 23:51:02 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-217-144.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:51:50 possible places to start learning the ropes and introducing the newer compiler stuff :) 23:52:23 Hunh. Okay, just found a handful of things in the '77 dragon book that definitely aren't in SBCL. 23:52:27 <_3b> dragon book is the obvious starting place 23:52:28 never read the dragon book. my compiler professor wrote his own manuscript... 23:52:54 <_3b> was muchnick the other good one? 23:52:58 The dragon book is actually largely crap about parsing. 23:53:11 <_3b> yeah, that part was a bit annoying :( 23:53:23 *nyef* has yet to obtain a copy of muchnick. 23:54:37 gigamonkey: been reading "Seizing the Enigma" lately. would be neat to see a book about the immediate uptake of design from the Bletchley Park crew. e.g. what architectures that work immediately influenced 23:55:08 As for places to start in SBCL itself, I sortof came at it backwards, so for the longest time I had to treat the whole of IR1 as operating on the FM principle. 23:55:23 But found IR2 to be quite hackable. 23:55:26 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:56:32 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@bb116-14-191-157.singnet.com.sg] has left #lisp 23:56:42 mon_key: did they mention that Bletchley received cracked enigma before the war started? :) 23:57:01 p_l|backup: yes from the poles? 23:57:02 (that is, *solved* enigma crypto algorithm) 23:57:31 nice, someone actually gave the attribution 23:57:47 p_l|backup: you talking about the "bombes"? 23:58:07 Yes, in fact the author says, "It was not one of Englands `shining moments'" 23:58:35 gigamonkey: before the war started, Poland sent a modified Enigma unit, with complete specification including how to decrypt it 23:58:52 e.g. when the Poles finally make it to the UK after a few year hiatus in France and then upon arrival are shuffled into a corner... 23:59:13 the work at Bletchley was largely about automation of decoding and adapting to newer variants 23:59:27 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:59:28 though I don't remember the details 23:59:44 of course, it was also the place where Turing started musing about infinite tape