00:06:44 -!- fisted_ is now known as fisted 00:07:36 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 00:10:06 konr [~user@187.106.40.182] has joined #lisp 00:10:35 Justsomerandomgu [~none@c-24-6-46-96.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:11:14 *Saturnation* wonders what chapter Odaym is up to... 00:11:30 3 00:11:37 Ah 00:11:39 Practical: A Simple Database 00:11:52 I kind of disliked that chapter 00:11:58 why? 00:12:10 *Saturnation* is up to chapter 13 00:12:16 drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 00:12:25 And read Land of Lisp just prior to restarting PCL 00:12:30 and that's why you dislike chapter 3? 00:12:31 :P 00:12:40 why did you dislike chapter 3? 00:12:57 No, I've read it a couple of times. It just to much of a toy practical wise 00:13:08 hmmm, no 00:13:15 you are just too smart! 00:13:16 hehe 00:13:39 -!- Spion__ is now known as Spion 00:13:40 too old 00:13:44 -!- Spion [~spion@77.29.254.208] has quit [Changing host] 00:13:44 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 00:14:00 tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.66.112] has joined #lisp 00:14:34 *Saturnation* goes back to trying to figure out why his LispWorks CAPI delivery fails spectacularly while trying to paint to the screen for the first time... 00:14:36 <_3b> slyrus: opticl scaling doesn't seem to be gamma-correct :p (see http://www.4p8.com/eric.brasseur/gamma.html ) 00:15:11 I presume this is due to using nearest-neighbor for the interpolation? 00:15:47 <_3b> if it just does nearest than i guess it might not apply 00:16:10 well, it can do both 00:16:12 <_3b> if you blend multiple samples it should adjust for gamma 00:16:26 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:16:28 you say it's not gamma correct because you tried it and it's not, or you glanced at the source code? :) 00:16:42 *_3b* tried, but may have tried wrong 00:18:15 <_3b> does opticl do something odd with optimization settings that kills slime autodoc arglists? 00:20:11 -!- Odaym [~unix@212.36.209.4] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:20:14 -!- myu2 [~myu2@x108121.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:26:28 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 00:27:28 -!- pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:ddfc] has left #lisp 00:27:35 it shouldn't 00:28:26 myu2 [~myu2@x108121.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 00:29:55 *_3b* notes that blur-image has the same problem, which i assume doesn't depend on nearest or bilinear 00:30:18 <_3b> (of not taking gamma into account, though it doesn't have an arglist either) 00:31:15 *_3b* wonders if i should have not updated slime 00:31:26 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-98-78.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:31:29 Jubb [~ghost@c-98-204-160-127.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:31:31 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-98-78.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:31:57 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sbahra] 00:32:21 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-98-78.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:35 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@173-10-44-57-Michigan.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:35:34 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 00:39:44 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 00:41:26 mattrepl [~mattrepl@c-69-181-1-27.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:42:29 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:54 -!- ben_m [~Ben@chello084113058207.12.vie.surfer.at] has left #lisp 00:45:02 killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 00:46:50 -!- xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:58:00 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:46 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:03:05 -!- nixfreak [~nixfreak@mn-10k-dhcp1-3174.dsl.hickorytech.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:03:42 -!- Intensity [ABmPaJzNgn@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Quit: Intensity] 01:04:23 -!- davertron [~david@c-24-218-166-166.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:05:47 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:06:43 nixfreak [~nixfreak@mn-10k-dhcp1-3174.dsl.hickorytech.net] has joined #lisp 01:09:41 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:10:44 LiamH [~healy@pool-68-239-79-144.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:14 QinGW [~wangqingw@60.247.26.3] has joined #lisp 01:15:53 why is it that spectacular fails are always me fault :) 01:16:34 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-128-236.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 01:18:10 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-68-239-79-144.res.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:18:26 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.148.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:18:42 yay, new sbcl homebrew formula. updated to 1.0.46, builds with threads by default now, and comes with other nice options (: 01:19:08 antifuchs, what platform? 01:19:23 *Saturnation* is keen to see the MS port progress... 01:19:26 Homebrew is a port system for Mac OS X 01:19:30 ah 01:19:53 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-128-236.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:19:56 Intensity [qQqJinT8oV@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 01:20:04 *Saturnation* puts his head back down and starts ripping into event handling 01:23:46 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has quit [Quit: dobranoc, good night] 01:25:38 hmm, webkitgtk is surprisingly easy to use 01:27:59 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:29:50 <_3b> hmm, more "The value NIL is not of type SB-C::NODE.", wonder if it is related to one of the existing bugs 01:30:31 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:32:07 _3b: what are you trying to do? 01:32:07 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-98-78.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:32:25 <_3b> drdo: compile buggy code :p 01:32:26 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-98-78.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:30 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-98-78.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:33:23 <_3b> (which should either cleanly fail to compile, or compile to code that fails to run, rather than erroring in the compiler) 01:33:24 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-98-78.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:34:29 hehe 01:35:44 <_3b> yeah, guess it is a dupe of 720382, just a different error 01:36:24 -!- konr [~user@187.106.40.182] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:36:45 konr [~user@187.106.40.182] has joined #lisp 01:36:47 -!- redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:38:07 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:39:12 basho___ [~basho__@dslb-092-076-095-250.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 01:39:51 -!- ckelly [~ckelly@microgravity.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:40:04 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 01:40:10 ckelly [~ckelly@microgravity.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 01:40:41 Using CFFI is way easier than i had anticipated, i'm pleased 01:40:50 -!- basho__ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-153-208.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:41:25 PissedNu1lock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 01:41:34 -!- PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 01:45:51 -!- phrixos [~Phrixos@gnu/webmaster/phrixos] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 01:45:57 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-76-245-62-252.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 01:47:29 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.66.112] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 01:48:03 scifon [~nej@h104n1-loa-gr100.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 01:48:10 -!- Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:49:50 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:50:05 _scifon [~nej@h104n1-loa-gr100.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 01:52:01 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.148.246] has joined #lisp 01:52:13 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 01:52:18 -!- scifon [~nej@h104n1-loa-gr100.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:57:41 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:57:46 Fare [~Fare@64.119.159.126] has joined #lisp 02:03:13 jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 02:06:07 cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.78] has joined #lisp 02:06:12 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.78] has quit [Changing host] 02:06:13 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 02:06:18 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-128-236.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 02:06:34 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.148.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:06:54 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 02:10:27 tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:11:14 Can someone tell me what exactly this means: "Argument to apply/funcall is not a function: (FUNCTION MOTION)."? 02:11:54 *Saturnation* is missing _something_... 02:12:02 <_3b> probably that you passed something that looks like (function motion) to apply or funcall, instead of something that is actually a function, or a function designator 02:12:10 <_3b> maybe a '#'motion somewhere? 02:12:26 <_3b> or posisbly more likely, '(.... #'motion) 02:12:55 brad_ [~brad@pool-74-101-124-88.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:13:21 yeah, #'motion 02:13:35 *Saturnation* isn't sure what he SHOULD be passing 02:13:57 <_3b> #'motion READs as something reasonable to pass, as long as it gets evaluated 02:14:12 it's a callback, and most callback would take 'motion, but not this one 02:14:16 <_3b> specifically (function motion), which when evaluated returns the function named by MOTION 02:14:28 *Saturnation* is confused 02:14:32 <_3b> paste your code 02:14:38 <_3b> lisppaste: url 02:14:38 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 02:14:42 <_3b> ^ there 02:16:22 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 02:16:37 Saturnation pasted "CAPI input model callback erro" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120495 02:16:47 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Client Quit] 02:17:02 -!- brad_ [~brad@pool-74-101-124-88.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:17:05 <_3b> yeah, second problem i suggested: '((:motion #'motion)) 02:17:17 <_3b> ' prevents the #'motion from being evaluated 02:17:25 Ah 02:17:33 <_3b> so it is just the list (function motion) rather than an actual function, or the name of a function 02:17:34 so (list (:motion #'motion))?!? 02:17:50 <_3b> (list (list ...)) would work better 02:18:03 <_3b> or `((:motion ,#'motion)) 02:18:14 *Saturnation* likes the last best 02:18:15 thanks 02:18:42 <_3b> or given the order of the forms, maybe '((:motion motion)) 02:18:47 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@c-69-181-1-27.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 02:19:19 `((:motion ,#'motion)) worked 02:19:28 <_3b> since there is no function named MOTION defined at that point, not sure when that form would actualy get evaluated though 02:19:30 OK, gotta run, but thanks again 02:19:40 <_3b> try it from a freshly loaded lisp too 02:19:49 <_3b> in case the order of the forms matters 02:19:58 <_3b> (or define the function before the class) 02:20:29 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.148.246] has joined #lisp 02:23:09 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 02:25:56 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:25:59 -!- konr [~user@187.106.40.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:28:09 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 02:29:26 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:30:45 -!- Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:32:41 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:35:44 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-98-78.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:36:34 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-98-78.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:38 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-98-78.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:37:29 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-98-78.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:37:34 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-98-78.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:37:47 leo2007 [~leo@120.37.24.68] has joined #lisp 02:37:59 enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-76-171-245-75.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:38:22 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-98-78.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:38:23 -!- pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:38:27 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-98-78.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:38:34 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:38:54 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:39:14 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-98-78.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:39:18 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-98-78.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:40:01 Saturnation: you've been cheated by syntax. Next time, use (function foo) instead of #'foo. 02:40:08 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-98-78.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:40:54 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 02:41:03 *_3b* suspects it was more an incomplete understanding of ' than #' 02:41:25 bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:41:32 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:42:03 #'foo syntax strongly implies "the function foo", while unfortunately non-obviously, it is only the list (function foo). 02:42:13 (function foo) is obviously the list (function foo). 02:42:33 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 02:42:58 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:44:03 jsoftw [~jsoft@60-234-234-240.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 02:44:03 -!- jsoftw [~jsoft@60-234-234-240.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Changing host] 02:44:03 jsoftw [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 02:46:28 -!- zmv [~daniel@c934a9f5.virtua.com.br] has quit [Quit: sleep] 02:48:30 kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:53:57 -!- paradoja [~paradoja@acceso-cmp174-132.lpa.idec.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:54:32 bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:55:36 blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-45763541.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:55:41 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:59:23 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:59:55 -!- _scifon [~nej@h104n1-loa-gr100.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:00:00 cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.78] has joined #lisp 03:00:02 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.78] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:00:35 cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.78] has joined #lisp 03:00:39 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.78] has quit [Changing host] 03:00:39 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 03:01:30 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:45 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:02:21 kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:02:58 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 03:04:38 phrixos [~Phrixos@194.66.0.176] has joined #lisp 03:05:34 -!- phrixos [~Phrixos@194.66.0.176] has quit [Client Quit] 03:05:35 to what size are you trying to resize the lama? 03:05:38 -!- McMAGIC-- [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:05:46 when I shrink him by half I get a greenish-tinged lama 03:06:29 maybe it is jealous of the larger llama 03:07:04 <_3b> yeah, half 03:07:21 <_3b> or blur it at full size 03:08:00 big hitter, the lama 03:08:40 did you get a green tinged lama? 03:08:59 <_3b> resizing to half with bilinear forced on ended up green tinted 03:09:14 hrm... I thought this was with nearest neighbor 03:09:17 -!- _reid [~reid@pool-108-10-24-103.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:09:27 <_3b> without bilinear, it was sort of stripy, but i might have had dimensions wrong or something 03:09:36 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:09:45 <_3b> green might be right for nearest though 03:10:03 <_3b> sort of like the red one from the examples it has 03:10:12 <_3b> just picking the opposite scanlines 03:10:18 cfy [~cfy@218.75.27.174] has joined #lisp 03:10:22 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.27.174] has quit [Changing host] 03:10:22 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 03:10:47 <_3b> so not sure what i was doing wrong the first time i tried 03:11:08 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 03:11:14 ok, seems green for both 03:11:41 <_3b> possibly bilinear doesn't do anything when downsampling (which is reasonable) 03:11:42 :quadratic is, unfortunately, broken :( 03:15:03 I need to get the minimum and maximum of a list of '(x y) values. Just pondering the best way to do this? 03:15:32 ie so I end up with x-min x-max y-min y-max 03:16:15 <_3b> (loop for (x y) in list maximize x into x-max minimize x into x-min ... finally (return (values x-min x-max y-min y-max)))) 03:16:35 <_3b> bit harder if you want the actual points with extreme x/y values though 03:17:01 -!- akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-123-094.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:17:18 _3b: hmm.. 03:19:52 gko [~gko@60-251-71-121.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 03:19:59 <_3b> slyrus: not sure quadratic would help for scaling down, what you really want is some weighted average of all the source pixels that map to each dest pixel, or maybe nearest sample of a low-pass filtered version of the original 03:20:21 <_3b> (which i think should be equivalent if both are implemented correctly, but i don't remember which is 'correct' in either case :) 03:21:44 wtf 03:21:48 _3b: that actually worked 03:21:56 :| 03:22:22 <_3b> that would be why i suggested it :) 03:22:42 Nah I am suprised by the for (x y) part. 03:22:44 how do Allegro Lisp and LispWork Lisp compare? 03:22:56 that seems kind of sneaky to me 03:23:10 <_3b> jsoftw: yeah, LOOP does destructuring, sort-of but not quite like destructuring-bind 03:23:10 LiamH [~healy@pool-68-239-79-144.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:23:53 <_3b> (it differs in that it doesn't do stuff like &rest or &key, and allows NIL for values that should be ignored) 03:24:46 <_3b> and i think all of the bindings are optional 03:24:51 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:25:27 Hmm 03:25:36 <_3b> you can still use . for &rest though 03:25:48 loop scares me. 03:26:49 <_3b> yeah, it isn't the best possible thing that could possibly have ended up in that part of the spec given infinite time and resource, but it is still pretty useful :) 03:27:15 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 03:27:26 <_3b> like for example in iterate, you could easily find the points with extreme x or y values, unlike in LOOP 03:28:56 define extreme x or y values? Why would this not work in loop? 03:29:46 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-135-128.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:43 with loop you can only get the maximum value itself, as opposed to what led to that maximum value 03:31:51 -!- Dawgmatix [~dman@c-24-0-146-14.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 03:32:22 <_3b> jsoftw: if you wanted to know which point had the lowest X value, instead of just the lowest X value 03:32:41 <_3b> you would have to do that by hand in LOOP, but ITERATE could do it for you 03:32:42 Oh I see what you mean 03:33:05 <_3b> and even if it couldn't, iterate is portably extensible, while LOOP isn't 03:34:30 akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-123-094.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:40:44 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.148.246] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 03:46:00 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 03:50:35 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:16 lifeng 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#lisp 04:29:35 milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 04:31:44 -!- Jubb [~ghost@c-98-204-160-127.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:35:52 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.148.246] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 04:37:51 -!- tr3x [~tr3x@93-136-82-54.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:39:40 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 04:41:33 tr3x [~tr3x@93-141-6-183.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 04:43:37 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 04:44:00 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:44:16 ccorn [~ccorn@j109182.upc-j.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 04:44:21 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.148.246] has joined #lisp 04:45:59 Justsomerandomgu [~none@c-24-6-46-96.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:46:28 -!- Fare [~Fare@64.119.159.126] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:50:48 -!- schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:51:34 schmrkc [~marcus@c83-254-196-92.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 04:51:34 -!- schmrkc [~marcus@c83-254-196-92.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Changing host] 04:51:34 schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 04:52:17 -!- cYmen [~cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:53:03 cYmen [~cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has joined #lisp 04:53:06 How do I tell mapcar to pass more arguments to the function? 04:53:46 pass it more lists 04:54:31 <_3b> or wrap the function in a lambda for static arguments 04:56:25 konr [~user@187.106.40.182] has joined #lisp 04:57:47 hmm 04:57:55 -!- muhdick [~qle@99-14-26-190.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:58:38 (mapcar (lambda (arg scale) (list (+ (first arg) (first scale))) (+ (second arg) (second scale))) '((1 1) (2 2) (3 3) (4 4) (5 5) (6 6)) '(2 1)) gives '2 is not a list 04:59:07 Sorry, 2 is of not of type list 04:59:46 -!- konr [~user@187.106.40.182] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:59:49 <_3b> try printing args and scale instead of trying to actually do something with it, see if that makes it more clear what is happening 04:59:50 <_3b> *arg and scale 05:00:46 *_3b* suspects you wanted the 'static arguments' strategy rather than the 'more lists', or else you wanted a different 'more list' 05:01:08 static arguments, yes 05:01:27 -!- parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:01:52 parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 05:02:02 <_3b> 1then get rid of the scale arg and extra list, and just put a value in place of (first scale) in the lambda 05:02:21 How woul I do that dynamically though 05:02:31 Ie those scale values will change 05:02:52 <_3b> just use the variable the value is stored in inside the lambda? 05:02:56 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:02:57 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 05:03:24 so lambdas can see outside its self then? 05:03:26 I suppose they can 05:03:38 <_3b> yeah, just like any other function 05:03:40 What do you call that, lexical or something 05:03:52 <_3b> 'lexical closure' 05:04:31 <_3b> or 'lexical scope' depending on which 'that' you mean 05:05:36 <_3b> (unless the value it is looking at is a global/special var, in which it isn't called anything in particular) 05:05:43 <_3b> s/value/variable/ 05:06:31 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-159-177.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:06:40 -!- michael_lf [~michael@2001:da8:4000:1:20f:feff:feec:8f0] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:07:03 Ahh coolies 05:07:06 michael_lf [~michael@2001:da8:4000:1:20f:feff:feec:8f0] has joined #lisp 05:07:11 Great success anyhow. 05:07:30 <_3b> 'lexical scope' refers to the ability to see variable bindings from enclosing forms, while 'lexical closure' refers to the combination of the lambda and the values from a particular invocation of the (lambda...) form 05:07:56 <_3b> you can do things like return closures from functions and call them later, and they remember the variables they could see from inside the function 05:08:10 -!- Pepe_ [~ppjet@bouah.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:08:36 <_3b> and if you call the original function again, it would make a new set of bindings and return another closure that could see those bindings, while the first closure still sees the bindingd from when it was created 05:08:48 -!- michael_lf [~michael@2001:da8:4000:1:20f:feff:feec:8f0] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 05:09:04 Pepe_ [~ppjet@bouah.net] has joined #lisp 05:09:17 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-139-48.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:09:44 That is pretty funky 05:09:59 *_3b* isn't sure that makes any sense, but it is an important concept worth looking for a better explantion of at some point :) 05:10:20 -!- churib [~churib@95.156.194.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:10:31 closure's eh 05:11:09 churib [~churib@95.156.194.105] has joined #lisp 05:13:33 Isnt it weird how dense lisp code can be 05:13:56 michael_lf [~michael@2001:da8:4000:1:20f:feff:feec:8f0] has joined #lisp 05:13:57 -!- tenawa [~user@adsl-75-53-123-94.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:14:36 *_3b* thinks the weird part is how so many people can put up with the less dense languages :p 05:14:42 :) 05:23:23 flow3r [~flow3r@61.111.10.20] has joined #lisp 05:23:34 flow3r-opera [~flow3r@61.111.10.20] has joined #lisp 05:25:26 -!- flow3r-opera [~flow3r@61.111.10.20] has left #lisp 05:25:35 -!- flow3r [~flow3r@61.111.10.20] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 05:25:58 -!- michael_lf [~michael@2001:da8:4000:1:20f:feff:feec:8f0] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:26:30 michael_alexande [~michael@2001:da8:4000:1:20f:feff:feec:8f0] has joined #lisp 05:27:11 flow3r [~flow3r@61.111.10.20] has joined #lisp 05:27:40 -!- cYmen 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[Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:39:11 Ragnaroek [~Adium@p5B0C2757.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:40:56 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:45:08 -!- michael_alexande [~michael@2001:da8:4000:1:20f:feff:feec:8f0] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:46:38 michael_alexande [~michael@2001:da8:4000:1:20f:feff:feec:8f0] has joined #lisp 06:48:30 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:48:31 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:50:34 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:50:50 pebkc [~user@ip-89-102-12-202.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 06:50:53 drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 06:51:26 BrianRice` [~water@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:55:15 Ahh, need library foo 06:55:36 -!- 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well? 07:09:30 -!- ckelly [~ckelly@microgravity.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:10:56 drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 07:11:59 youguy [~youguy@245.Red-83-57-54.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:16:06 -!- drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:16:23 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has joined #lisp 07:16:23 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has quit [Changing host] 07:16:23 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 07:17:06 tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:17:32 pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 07:17:32 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 07:19:12 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp2364.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:23:23 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:25:14 -!- simplechat 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has joined #lisp 08:21:32 -!- Chunky_Munky is now known as KonArtist 08:21:42 hi 08:22:20 hi cunts 08:22:23 -!- michael_alexande [~michael@2001:da8:4000:1:20f:feff:feec:8f0] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 08:22:26 -!- KonArtist [hkcctj@69.41.179.205] has quit [Client Quit] 08:23:18 michael_alexande [~michael@2001:da8:4000:1:20f:feff:feec:8f0] has joined #lisp 08:23:26 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-53-100.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:24:21 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-53-100.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 08:25:02 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 08:27:01 -!- ckelly [~ckelly@biop230.leidenuniv.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 08:27:41 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 08:28:35 -!- drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:29:21 -!- michael_alexande [~michael@2001:da8:4000:1:20f:feff:feec:8f0] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:30:37 michael_alexande [~michael@2001:da8:4000:1:20f:feff:feec:8f0] has joined #lisp 08:32:08 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:33:15 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:35:52 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has joined #lisp 08:36:22 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 08:38:32 -!- jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:40:59 ckelly_ [~ckelly@biop230.leidenuniv.nl] has joined #lisp 08:41:49 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 08:41:59 kramer3d [~kramer@unaffiliated/kramer3d] has joined #lisp 08:42:09 hello, do can i install irc package in sbcl? 08:42:21 drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 08:42:35 wow 08:42:42 let me try again 08:42:52 hello, how can i install the irc package in sbcl? 08:43:13 kramer3d: which irc package? 08:43:27 is there one just named irc? 08:43:33 and do you have a tarball or something, or do you want install instructions 08:43:34 no 08:43:44 woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:43:59 kramer3d: using quicklisp? 08:44:10 there's cl-irc, beirc, irc-logger in quicklisp 08:44:22 ok thanks 08:44:30 yeah i have quicklisp 08:44:33 looking at cliki's irc page, you probably want cl-irc or trivial-irc 08:44:34 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-83-99.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:44:46 ill try cl-irc 08:45:27 in that case, it's probably just (ql:system-apropos "cl-irc") to see if ql has it 08:45:45 and it seems it does, checking it on my box 08:45:52 then (gl:quickload 'cl-irc) 08:45:56 sorry 08:45:59 *ql 08:46:00 :) 08:46:02 eah 08:46:04 *yeah 08:46:07 fuck 08:46:16 *sharps* fails at typing 08:46:33 ok i got it installed 08:46:37 cool :) 08:46:39 this is why i asked the original question 08:46:44 i was trying to get cliki.lisp 08:46:49 to work in sbcl 08:47:03 tcr [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 08:47:07 and it contains : (defpackage :cliki (:use :common-lisp :irc << sbcl can't find this package 08:47:22 hmm :/ 08:47:53 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-99-100.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:47:53 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 08:47:57 did it come with any other .lisp files? 08:48:10 yeah 08:48:29 those probably need to be loaded too 08:48:39 one of them might define that irc package 08:48:41 ok 08:48:53 im quite new to lisp, thanks for the help! :D 08:49:04 actually, is there a .asd file included? 08:49:18 or anything that mentions asdf or defsystem? 08:49:37 yes there is a cl-irc.asd file 08:49:49 ok 08:49:59 see, you need to load all the files in the right order 08:50:00 sharps: just install quicklisp :) 08:50:01 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-212-126.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:50:18 and use that to install packags 08:50:19 p_l|backup: cliki is part of quicklisp? 08:50:22 but that sucks so much that there's a tool to do it 08:50:25 asdf 08:50:40 which quicklisp installs & uses to load it's packages 08:50:57 try loading the package that came with the cliki.lisp file 08:51:53 ehu: no, but it would make it easier to install all requird stuff 08:52:29 ah. when you know what they are, ture. 08:52:33 true. 08:53:27 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.3.133] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:54:24 -!- aidalgol [aidan@2002:453d:f72::1337:3] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 08:57:12 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@46.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:57:25 kurtis [~kurtis@cpe-75-186-129-145.woh.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:57:56 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.3.133] has joined #lisp 08:58:09 Hey guys, I'm just starting out (literally, 5 minutes ago installed the interpreter). I have a little bit of experience with scheme from school a while back. I'm running into trouble printing a sorted list and I'm not sure why 08:58:26 pate the code? 08:58:28 lisppaste: url? 08:58:29 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 09:00:05 Thanks :) I was actually just about to paste it and then realized it was just a parenthesis mismatch. figures 09:00:26 Any suggestions on a good IDE for writing clisp on Linux? (Mainly to make sure I avoid errors like that) 09:00:29 minion: paredit? 09:00:29 paredit: a set of Emacs commands, with a minor mode for convenient access to them, for editing balanced S-expressions and a number of higher-level operations on S-expressions, at ; see also the #paredit channel 09:00:45 kurtis: slime with paredit 09:00:48 minion: slime? 09:00:48 slime: SLIME is the Superior Lisp Interaction Mode for Emacs. http://www.cliki.net/slime 09:01:16 minion: slime.mov 09:01:16 slime.mov: "using SLIME" video by Marco Baringer, http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov 09:01:25 cool. so going with Emacs and these addons seems to be the consensus. Thanks guys for all of the good info! 09:01:42 kurtis: see this what slime can do 09:01:55 I'm checking it out right now :) 09:02:05 kurtis: also, 'clisp' is an implementation of common lisp, whose contraction is 'cl' (or just 'lisp', here). 09:02:29 (bah, that 'whose' points to 'common lisp', not 'clisp') 09:03:25 good to know 09:04:04 aidalgol [aidan@2002:453d:f72::1337:3] has joined #lisp 09:07:37 -!- michael_alexande [~michael@2001:da8:4000:1:20f:feff:feec:8f0] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:08:15 michael_alexande [~michael@2001:da8:4000:1:20f:feff:feec:8f0] has joined #lisp 09:09:03 Any suggestions on a good book for lisp? Preferably something written from a Comp Sci background rather than "For Dummies" style (if they exist) 09:09:13 minion: PCL? 09:09:14 PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 09:09:38 minion: PAIP? 09:09:38 PAIP: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp by Peter Norvig. http://www.cliki.net/PAIP 09:10:13 awesome ill check those out too. thanks again! 09:10:16 minion: ansi common lisp 09:10:16 i'm written in common lisp 09:10:18 -!- michael_alexande [~michael@2001:da8:4000:1:20f:feff:feec:8f0] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 09:10:22 minion: acl 09:10:22 acl: ACL refers to Allegro Common Lisp from Franz, Inc., a non-free Common Lisp implementation. http://www.cliki.net/acl 09:10:41 no ... I meant "Ansi Common Lisp" 09:11:00 minion: tell kurtis about sicp 09:11:00 kurtis: look at sicp: The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, a CS textbook using Scheme. Available under the CC-BY-NC Licence at (HTML), (Texinfo), and (PDF). Video lectures are available under the CC-BY-SA licence at 09:11:03 michael_alexande [~michael@2001:da8:4000:1:20f:feff:feec:8f0] has joined #lisp 09:12:49 -!- michael_alexande [~michael@2001:da8:4000:1:20f:feff:feec:8f0] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:13:26 michael_alexande [~michael@2001:da8:4000:1:20f:feff:feec:8f0] has joined #lisp 09:13:50 Regarding SICP: can someone tell minion to include this, too? http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/ 09:14:11 Looks like it was included 09:14:20 oh wait, sorry! only saw the end of it :P 09:14:43 no, you're right ... it's just another mirror 09:14:50 sorry for the noise 09:15:04 the block is just TL;DR ;-( 09:15:26 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:15:27 I wonder what kind of magic webkit does to load plugins, crashes when used with sbcl trying to watch some flash 09:15:56 -!- jsoftw [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:16:17 I think I'm going to have to take a few weeks and learn emacs before I get back into lisp, haha 09:16:55 kurtis: that'd be a good idea. 09:16:58 kutis: what do you normally use as a programming editor? 09:17:28 Honestly, just nano or whatever is easy and convenient at the moment. i'm not really biased or anything 09:17:32 kurtis: that said, if you need a few weeks, perhaps you could forget learning a programming language altogether. emacs tutorial takes half an hour. Learning emacs takes tens of years. 09:17:59 yeah I've seen before the statement it takes 10 years to learn emacs 09:18:20 kurtis: then learning emacs as you learn lisp will be fun and enlightening. 09:18:22 youguy [~youguy@245.Red-83-57-54.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:19:13 I have nothing against it. I just never took the big leap 09:19:35 kurtis: start with the tutorial. You have half an hour to kill, don't you? 09:20:04 Cool I'll give it a start. I'm sure it'll be well worth the time spent 09:21:45 You've all got this stuff down. If you guys have a solution on how to get away from PHP (it's what the clients all seem to want), I'm all ears :) 09:23:10 I think this is the only business where a client has the power to tell you what tool they want you to use 09:23:23 start up your own company and write software without letting the customers decide what tools you should use. 09:23:25 kurtis: Why do your clients care what tools you use? 09:23:38 As long as you deliver... 09:23:40 kurtis: when you go to a dentist, do you tell him what tool to use? 09:24:17 kurtis: when you have a builder make your house, do you tell him what kind of hammer or what kind of nail to use? 09:25:08 Nope. That's my point. But for some reason these clients think they're informed ... so by the time they come my way, their sitting deep in a PHP host and usually have already picked out their pre-built app of choice. They just want someone to configure it and make it do what they want 09:25:24 pjb: be careful with that kind of example, I tell my dentist what kind of material I want for an implant, and I tell a builder what kind of material I want for a window 09:25:54 Yes, but not what tool to use. 09:26:17 analogies are often fragile 09:26:23 They may ask for a web site with pictures or with text, but not that you use vi or emacs, or lisp or php. 09:26:23 Harag [~Harag@41.9.224.50] has joined #lisp 09:26:31 good point 09:26:46 -!- Harag [~Harag@41.9.224.50] has left #lisp 09:27:29 pjb: Yeah, but for some reason I always get the PHP jobs. I honestly haven't figured out why yet ... maybe all of the developers before me influenced them 09:27:38 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:27:42 kurtis: perhaps you wrote PHP in your resume? 09:27:44 Noone ever comes to me and says "Just build me a web site". That would be awesome 09:27:58 pjb: haha, I wrote a lot of stuff in there :) but yeah I'm sure that's partially to blame 09:28:28 Sounds like a good way to get away from it too. Although I might be out of work all together then 09:28:33 If you go to a dentist you get a filling; if you go to a builder you get a house; if you go to a software developer you have no idea what you'll get. 09:28:41 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 09:29:33 splittist: software? 09:30:01 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.212.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:30:25 I've heard (haven't personally experienced, yet) that Lisp is easy to write very rapidly. I'm hoping that will work out in my benefit. Plus, I don't think a lot of the other developers I've talked to know much more than how to deploy a wordpress with a custom theme and some plugins 09:31:35 In the long run, I'd like to be able to take fresh projects and use Lisp and manage the hosting. It sounds nice anyways 09:31:39 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:31:50 -!- beach` is now known as beach 09:31:55 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has left #lisp 09:32:36 Or at least use whatever tool works best for the job, of course 09:33:08 kurtis: the real win comes in writing the software that writes the software (: 09:33:51 splittist: haha. If I could do that I'd have time to learn emacs in 5 years 09:34:49 alama [~alama@a79-169-81-87.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 09:36:26 Are there any big applications written in mostly lisp these days? (Desktop or Web) 09:36:51 s/big/commonly used 09:36:54 -!- drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:37:00 MoALTz [~no@92.8.159.148] has joined #lisp 09:37:44 kurtis: you might have heard of emacs 09:38:09 kurtis: the set of tools that lisp provides is often quite different to a lot of popular languages. thus there is an unusual learning curve if you're coming from one of those languages. you have to be prepared to shake off preconceptions and spend quite some time really understanding what is available to you. my personal experience is that I was very unproductive for a fair while at first, until I started to grok the new concepts, and thus fundamentally change how 09:38:22 whoops, that was longer than I expected. 09:38:51 and a bit rambling... 09:38:52 flip214: I knew it used ELisp for practically everything. I didn't know it was actually written in Lisp though. That's cool 09:39:11 elisp is a kind of lisp 09:39:50 zfx: yeah. It is different. I like it though. At least my experience with scheme. It definitely is a different train of thought from my very little bit of experience. I haven't used macros yet so we'll see 09:40:10 I wouldn't conflate scheme and common lisp. :) 09:40:14 flip214: But it's not written in C? 09:40:21 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 09:40:27 kurtis: ITA's QPX is so commonly used (just look at the logos on http://www.itasoftware.com/ ) that Google is having trouble buying it. 09:40:38 kurtis: the elisp interpreter is 09:40:47 the rest is elisp 09:41:11 ahh okay. That explains why it is so powerful 09:41:40 -!- alama [~alama@a79-169-81-87.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: alama] 09:42:51 -!- astoon [~astoon@178-16-146-17.obit.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:43:19 splittist: That's a good example! It's kind of scary that google would want to buy something like that. They have a nack for taking normally-unrelated things and coming out on top 09:43:47 gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.222.29] has joined #lisp 09:43:57 Next thing you know, you go to search on google maps and it gives you plane ticket prices 09:48:17 Emacs+Slime is a really nice combination. I'm glad I asked 09:49:15 kurtis: and don't forget paredit. You'll wonder how anyone writes without parens after a while. 09:50:51 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:51:05 drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 09:55:07 -!- benny [~benny@i577A3077.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:56:48 hi when i try to install cl-irc 09:57:56 i get this error: "debugger invoked on a ASDF:COMPILE-FAILED: " 09:58:01 its because of # 09:58:11 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 09:58:12 -!- youguy [~youguy@245.Red-83-57-54.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 09:58:14 i tried recompiling protocol 09:58:52 but it wont work 09:59:00 the error is erred while invoking # on # 09:59:39 kramer3d: use quicklisp 10:00:10 :/ ok 10:00:51 oh i can just do (require :cl-irc) and it works :D 10:01:21 -!- QinGW [~wangqingw@60.247.26.3] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:01:41 why is #'function prefered over 'function ? 10:02:06 tr3x: They don't mean the same thing. 10:02:37 they appear to be identical when passing a function as an argument 10:03:09 what is the difference? 10:04:07 kramer3d_ [~kramer@residents-NATted-129-174-190-17.residents.gmu.edu] has joined #lisp 10:04:07 -!- kramer3d_ [~kramer@residents-NATted-129-174-190-17.residents.gmu.edu] has quit [Changing host] 10:04:07 kramer3d_ [~kramer@unaffiliated/kramer3d] has joined #lisp 10:04:56 -!- McMAGIC-- [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:05:19 tr3x: Try: (progn (defun f (x y) (+ x y)) (flet ((f (x y) (- x y))) (list (funcall #'f 2 1) (funcall 'f 2 1)))) 10:05:22 -!- kramer3d [~kramer@unaffiliated/kramer3d] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:05:37 -!- kramer3d_ is now known as kramer3d 10:05:38 Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 10:06:16 Thanks for all of the help guys! 10:06:22 -!- kurtis [~kurtis@cpe-75-186-129-145.woh.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:07:29 youguy [~youguy@245.Red-83-57-54.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:07:31 -!- tr3x [~tr3x@93-141-6-183.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:07:56 McMAGIC-- [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--] has joined #lisp 10:09:01 tr3x [~tr3x@93-141-6-183.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 10:10:23 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-128-236.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:13:52 -!- luis` is now known as luis 10:14:43 youguy_ [~youguy@1.Red-79-158-63.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:14:56 -!- youguy [~youguy@245.Red-83-57-54.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:14:59 -!- strlen [~alex@behemoth.strlen.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:15:47 strlen [~alex@behemoth.strlen.net] has joined #lisp 10:15:51 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 10:16:17 -!- weirdo [~sthalik@sthalik.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:16:36 -!- michael_alexande [~michael@2001:da8:4000:1:20f:feff:feec:8f0] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:16:48 amb007 [~a_bakic@46.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 10:17:55 c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-afsgcvooaxhdcxum] has joined #lisp 10:18:50 -!- youguy_ [~youguy@1.Red-79-158-63.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:19:18 youguy [~youguy@1.Red-79-158-63.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:20:51 weirdo [~sthalik@sthalik.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 10:22:28 mgampkay [~mgampkay@183.3.166.207] has joined #lisp 10:23:21 beach interesting. so #' only looks in the function namespace 10:24:29 -!- mgampkay [~mgampkay@183.3.166.207] has left #lisp 10:24:59 mgampkay [~mgampkay@183.3.166.207] has joined #lisp 10:26:31 -!- gko [~gko@60-251-71-121.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:27:07 -!- lnostdal [~Lars@213.80-202-59.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:28:05 lnostdal [~Lars@213.80-202-59.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 10:29:46 -!- drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:31:58 alama [~alama@193.137.143.157] has joined #lisp 10:32:06 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 10:32:36 fisted_ [~fisted@unaffiliated/fisted] has joined #lisp 10:32:46 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-128-236.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 10:33:10 -!- fisted [~fisted@unaffiliated/fisted] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:33:26 michael_alexande [~michael@2001:da8:4000:1:20f:feff:feec:8f0] has joined #lisp 10:33:27 youguy_ [~youguy@245.Red-83-57-54.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:34:58 tr3x: The both look for functions, but #' takes into account locally defined functions (using flet or labels), whereas ' only looks for the global definition. 10:35:40 -!- youguy [~youguy@1.Red-79-158-63.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:36:20 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:36:23 sacho [~sacho@46.10.16.35] has joined #lisp 10:38:52 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 10:39:02 alama_ [~alama@194.117.18.99] has joined #lisp 10:41:46 -!- alama [~alama@193.137.143.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:41:46 -!- alama_ is now known as alama 10:41:47 -!- youguy_ [~youguy@245.Red-83-57-54.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:43:05 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.17.75] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:43:15 astoon [~astoon@178-16-146-17.obit.ru] has joined #lisp 10:43:52 drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 10:46:41 silenius [~silenus@p5DDB9B17.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:47:31 Please someone kill unix :( 10:47:36 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:48:01 drdo:  why? 10:48:15 really? 10:48:19 why? 10:49:42 -!- weirdo [~sthalik@sthalik.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:51:09 -!- mgampkay [~mgampkay@183.3.166.207] has left #lisp 10:51:13 beach, tr3x: It is not that #' takes into account local functions and ' doesn't. The fact is that 1- funcall is a function. 2- (funcall #'test-f) will call funcall with the function object found by looking up the function value of test-f at the call site. So in the this case it finds the locally defined functions because they are in scope. 3- (funcall 'test-f) will call funcall with the symbol test-f. The funcall function will look 10:51:13 up the function object, but at that moment your locally defined functions won't be in scope, so it finds the global one. 10:54:07 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@124-168-76-146.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:54:50 weirdo [~sthalik@sthalik.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 10:56:02 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.17.75] has joined #lisp 10:58:01 -!- guaqua_ is now known as guaqua 11:01:06 jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 11:03:31 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-128-236.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:04:30 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.71.239] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:08:07 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:09:12 hi, i was able to get cl-irc running from quicklisp 11:09:21 but now its giving me a very familiar error :( 11:09:44 file /home/argunda/.sbcl/site/cl-irc-0.8.1/protocol.lisp" << with this file 11:09:57 i dont understand why because it worked a couple hours ago 11:10:14 i just did (ql:quickload "cl-irc") 11:10:18 and it doesnt work 11:16:04 without the error, it's hard to tell what's wrong. 11:17:33 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 11:18:03 ehu, http://pastebin.com/RGg3xKqa 11:18:23 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:18:28 youguy [~youguy@245.Red-83-57-54.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:19:03 you have a mismatch between FLEXI-STREAMS and CL-IRC 11:19:11 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 11:19:27 I'm not sure what to do about that. 11:19:33 ive googled the error 11:19:42 and only got other pastebin links -_- 11:19:52 kramer3d: you seem to have a leftover cl-irc in ~/.sbcl/site, which isn't where QL puts sources 11:19:53 delete it 11:20:28 ah. 11:20:30 missed that. 11:21:10 "it" being the entire ~/.sbcl/site. that's an asdf-install directory 11:21:23 ok 11:24:36 ok now i get an error: Couldn't load #P"/home/argunda/.sbcl/systems/cl-irc.asd": file does not exist. 11:27:23 -_- 11:28:11 kramer3d: delete ~/.sbcl/systems as well 11:28:15 ok 11:29:04 it works! :D 11:29:05 thanks 11:30:05 -!- basho___ [~basho__@dslb-092-076-095-250.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:33:32 I have a class called 'line' inside a package called 'graph-line' and I want to (make-instance 'graph-line:line) from another file. Says the symbol LINE is not external in the GRAPH-LINE package. 11:33:39 Any ideas here? 11:33:40 *alama* pines for an xslt 2.0 processor in common lisp 11:34:06 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 11:35:38 alama: you've mentioned that a couple of times now, but XSLT 2.0 is a major task that won't write itself 11:35:59 yeah 11:36:04 alama: you could write FFI to an existing XSLT 2.0 implementation in C though 11:36:16 with the added benefit that it will be much faster than a naive pure lisp implementation 11:36:34 i'm using xsltproc these days 11:36:53 I'd rather work to make Xuriella (a conforming XSLT 1.0 implementation) faster than to work on a conforming, but unoptimized XSLT 2.0 implementation. 11:37:06 alama: xsltproc? I wasn't aware that libxslt had support for XSLT 2.0. 11:38:04 cl-libxml2 already has bindings for libxslt, so there's little point in calling out to a command line program if you're after libxslt. 11:38:36 lichtblau: hmm, perhaps i'm confusing myself and revealing my ignorance of xslt when i say that i need xslt 2.0 11:38:50 i'm working with some stylesheets that use xsl:document 11:39:10 i had trouble working with them in xuriella ("unknown instruction type", iirc) 11:39:21 Saturnation [~dsouth@71.169.187.156] has joined #lisp 11:39:27 i thought that i concluded that xsl:document is an xslt 2.0 thing, and hence that i was out of luck 11:39:36 xsltproc handles the very same stylesheets just fine 11:39:49 which is why i now say (possibly mistakenly) that xsltproc handles xslt 2.0 11:40:33 ah, didn't know about cl-libxml2 11:40:35 thanks 11:40:43 many XSLT 1.0 processors have a document extension. 11:40:53 in xuriella, this will enable the XURIELLA:DOCUMENT extension: 11:40:57 11:42:19 This is also how it works with other XSLT 1.0 processors and their extensions. (If an XSLT 1.0 processors offers xyz:document without requiring an extension to be declared, it's doing it wrong.) 11:43:37 Motsu [~dan@bb119-74-179-115.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 11:44:51 antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 11:44:53 hmm, then it would appear that xsltproc is doing something fishy 11:45:21 because it is handling xsl:document 11:45:31 in the stylesheet i'm working with, i see this: 11:45:33 11:46:23 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@155.69.43.70] has left #lisp 11:46:31 Yeah, I'm pretty sure I encountered an implementation that got this wrong in the past. It's pretty likely that it was libxslt/xsltproc. 11:47:33 interesting 11:48:14 When I tried running libxslt against the test suite, I didn't get the impression that it's particularly aiming to conform to the standard anyway. Mind you, it's a very good implementation for real-world use, but corner cases are implemented weirdly/incorrectly. 11:49:25 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:50:01 -!- michael_alexande [~michael@2001:da8:4000:1:20f:feff:feec:8f0] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:50:03 antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 11:50:11 ... compared to the classic implementations (saxon and microsoft). 11:50:42 -!- dmytrish [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:51:57 oh, ok 11:52:10 i had gotten the impression that libxslt was somehow canonical 11:55:08 in SLIME, is there a way to evaluate expressions in the REPL whilst at the debugger? 11:55:20 emacsenlee [~Administr@123.153.217.102] has joined #lisp 11:55:22 Type e in *sldb* 11:55:29 cheers. 11:55:32 IIRC 11:57:41 I'm not familiar with the standardization process myself, but both from the standard and from the test suite it's pretty obvious that Saxon and MSXML were the canonical implementations of XSLT 1.0: 11:57:55 They differ radically (mainly in terms of error recovery), and the language in the standard simply allows both implementation approaches... :-( To this day, XSLT you've tested only in Firefox&Webkit will usually error out in MSIE. 11:58:27 -!- Motsu [~dan@bb119-74-179-115.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:58:50 For Xuriella, I started out planning to error out as radically as MSIE, but somewhere inbetween gave up and started doing error recovery like Saxon. 11:59:05 -!- youguy [~youguy@245.Red-83-57-54.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 11:59:23 interesting; i had no idea there was this much diversity in the xslt world 12:00:14 *alama* takes back his whining about a missing xslt 2.0 12:00:52 milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 12:00:54 youguy [~youguy@245.Red-83-57-54.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:03:46 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 12:08:04 -!- kramer3d [~kramer@unaffiliated/kramer3d] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:08:23 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 12:08:58 longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has joined #lisp 12:09:28 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:11:58 -!- pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:12:24 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:15:51 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-128-236.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 12:17:34 francogrex [c14be4fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.75.228.252] has joined #lisp 12:17:47 -!- youguy [~youguy@245.Red-83-57-54.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:17:56 what should this result in: (ENCODE-UNIVERSAL-TIME 0 0 10 1 1 1789) ? 12:19:36 francogrex: it should err 12:20:11 francogrex: values lower than 1900 are not covered. 12:20:21 as far as i can see 12:20:53 francogrex: date is a complex subject. For historical modeling, you need to introduce your own data structure. 12:21:09 Because universal time must be a non-negative integer, times before the base time of midnight, January 1, 1900 GMT cannot be processed by Common Lisp. 12:21:18 Says Hyperspec. 12:21:28 ok because the behavior seems to differ from one implementation to another 12:22:12 it's possible that some implementations allow negative values, but it's breaking the standard 12:22:27 but if specs say it should err well then it should... pjb, I think in ecl that's what they did 12:22:57 francogrex: have a look at http://naggum.no/lugm-time.html 12:23:07 p_l|backup: ok. 12:23:55 pjb: oh yeah, I recall seeing that doc some time ago; good to read again 12:24:25 "must err" sounds too strong to me, is there language in the standard to back that up? 12:24:30 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:26:13 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.88.145] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:26:54 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.79.142] has joined #lisp 12:27:00 youguy [~youguy@245.Red-83-57-54.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:28:37 Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:28:40 -!- Saturnation [~dsouth@71.169.187.156] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 12:29:07 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 12:29:12 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 12:30:26 bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:31:30 hmm... it doesn't say that it must err, just that it's not supported. I guess one could return negative values 12:31:34 Because universal time must be a non-negative integer, times before the 12:31:35 base time of midnight, January 1, 1900 GMT cannot be processed by Common Lisp. 12:32:37 yeah, it's saying it indirectly 12:34:11 francogrex: in any case, Naggum's local-time library doesn't seem to deal with past times. Again, for historical dates, you need to implement your own stuff. 12:34:12 lichtblau: there's what I cited from the Hyperspec, I guess that could be double-checked against CLTL2. 12:35:05 basho__ [~basho__@dslb-092-076-095-250.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:35:40 Those equipped with GPS units may use ICBM or grid coordinates ... <--- heh 12:35:58 Pope Gregory XIII may well have given a similar paper to this one to another unsuspecting audience that probably also failed to appreciate the elegance of his solution., and 400 more years will pass before it is truly appreciated. <--- so true 12:36:45 The meaning of universal time is defined by the glossary, and the functions are specified to take an argument of that type, but implementations aren't required to signal an error on arguments of invalid type. 12:37:22 So 25.1.4.2 is probably just meant to be a helpful explanation; AFAIK "must" doesn't have a strong, RFC-like meaning in the hyperspec. 12:37:31 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 12:39:00 ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 12:39:09 pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 12:39:11 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 12:39:48 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:40:32 bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:04 lichtblau: Right. 12:43:39 -!- francogrex [c14be4fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.75.228.252] has left #lisp 12:45:15 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:50:43 yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 12:52:33 -!- youguy [~youguy@245.Red-83-57-54.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - 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http://colloquy.mobi] 13:46:41 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:48:21 Somewhere around, I have a proof-of-concept tree for moving /all/ assembler code for a couple of architectures from the runtime to the core. 13:49:34 Never did finish up, though, partly because I had absolutely no idea what to do about the TLS support for FreeBSD. 13:49:35 What would you suggest is the most popular cross-platform gui toolkit? 13:49:52 jsoft: HTML. 13:50:02 :| 13:50:17 After that, winapi 13:50:26 (Thank you, WINE project!) 13:50:33 :\ 13:50:47 in Lisp? 1. CAPI. 2. and 3. still CAPI. 4. GTK+. 5. Qt. 13:51:15 CLIM is probably around 7 or 8. 13:51:32 youguy [~youguy@245.Red-83-57-54.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:51:46 milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw80ffc152.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 13:52:27 gtafa [~gtafa@202.152.201.207] has joined #lisp 13:52:46 I wouldn't mind using LW CLIM for some stuff, though availability of CAPI trumps that 13:54:26 CAPI is closed source, amirite? 13:55:14 Do I remember that there's an open-source implementation of at least part of CAPI? 13:55:28 ... Do I remember /correctly/, that is? 13:56:14 Hmm 13:56:17 gozoner [~ebg@ebg-10004083621.jpl.nasa.gov] has joined #lisp 13:56:33 -!- gtafa [~gtafa@202.152.201.207] has left #lisp 13:56:54 nyef: not that I'm aware of. In my misguided youth, I once started writing some stuff, but it's at the level of "a window opens". 13:57:09 Do you think development of lisp libraries in general are getting more attention / picking ip in pace? 13:57:36 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:00:06 I think that there are enough people doing their own thing that we have ended up with a surprising number of libraries and programs, but I'm not sure about what the second derivative of that effect is. 14:00:40 muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:04:35 alama [~alama@194.117.18.99] has joined #lisp 14:04:56 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-83-182.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:07:06 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:07:26 -!- pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:08:14 Motsu [~dan@bb119-74-179-115.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 14:09:14 pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 14:09:16 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 14:09:24 -!- ohih0wru [~andrei@87.226.100.170] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:09:43 -!- beach [~user@116.118.73.64] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:09:48 both CAPI and CLIM could do with a tutorial on how to develop apps in them 14:09:49 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-63-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:10 beach [~user@116.118.73.64] has joined #lisp 14:10:11 -!- dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-101-147.xnet.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:11:01 mal__: what's missing from the CAPI User Guide in your view? 14:11:19 dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-101-147.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 14:11:38 it's been a few years since I've read it so it might be better now 14:11:51 a general idea of how stuff fits together 14:12:18 occasionally you need to guess where to sprinkle the incantation to run stuff in the interface thread and that sort of things 14:15:24 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 14:15:35 -!- drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:16:08 -!- youguy [~youguy@245.Red-83-57-54.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 14:17:18 -!- Motsu [~dan@bb119-74-179-115.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:17:41 lichtblau: I got as far as "a window opens" too, using a GTK "backend" IIRC. :) 14:19:31 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:19:34 -!- pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:20:04 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-31-28-194.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 14:22:21 pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 14:22:24 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 14:23:12 CLIM "backend" in my case 14:23:20 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has left #lisp 14:23:31 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 14:25:13 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:26:01 -!- emacsenlee [~Administr@123.153.217.102] has left #lisp 14:31:20 what is picking up in speed is the breadth of distribution 14:31:21 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:32:00 first through clbuild, now explosively so thanks to Quicklisp 14:32:38 Now, if we can just get breadth of documentation to match... 14:34:14 tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.66.60] has joined #lisp 14:34:59 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:35:24 rootzlevel [~hpd@188-195-186-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 14:35:44 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-63-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:35:44 pnkfelix1 [~Adium@c-71-225-63-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:37 drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 14:41:17 tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has joined #lisp 14:41:35 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:43:40 ... or just standardize onone format... 14:45:07 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:50:08 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:50:20 sellout [~Adium@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 14:51:29 p_l|backup: I don't see that as important, or even useful. The sort of documentation you need to understand Alexandria is very different from that needed to understand Weblocks. 14:51:32 mephisto_ [~mephisto@bas1-toronto07-1176322734.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:51:50 -!- mephisto_ [~mephisto@bas1-toronto07-1176322734.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:52:12 mephisto_ [~mephisto@bas1-toronto07-1176322734.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:52:21 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:52:25 longshot [~longshot@207.204.232.138] has joined #lisp 14:53:01 -!- sellout [~Adium@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:53:12 sellout [~Adium@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 14:53:39 splittist: I'm not saying standardize into very specific *form* of documntation, but a single system to generate the docs and a place to link all those docs together (for example, extracted from current QL dist) would be great 14:54:48 btw, who is currnt owner of cl-user.net ? 14:54:56 If you s/generate/identify/ I would agree with that. 14:55:47 splittist: as long as we get interlinked documentation that is easily accessible, then sure 14:55:58 p_l|backup: marc battyani 14:56:21 fe[nl]ix: thanks 14:58:05 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-170-165.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 15:02:47 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 15:03:01 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:04:05 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:04:13 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 15:05:57 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-63-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:06:36 -!- xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:06:47 -!- pnkfelix1 [~Adium@c-71-225-63-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:08:10 logia_th [~nmo@170.Red-81-38-212.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:21 superflit_ [~superflit@140.226.49.148] has joined #lisp 15:09:11 morning 15:10:09 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:52 Hello slyrus. 15:11:09 nipra [~nipra@122.169.79.232] has joined #lisp 15:13:39 milanj [~milanj_@109-92-126-186.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 15:14:13 -!- longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:18:27 -!- mgindulescu [~mircea@nat/nokia/x-huxqqtriapjhdhzp] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:18:31 -!- Davsebamse [~das@94.127.50.104] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:22:21 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-170-165.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:25:06 milkpost_ [~milkpost@dhcpw80ffc152.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 15:26:27 brad_ [~brad@pool-74-101-124-88.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:35 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw80ffc152.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:31:35 Rukowen [~Rukowen@222.253.77.233] has joined #lisp 15:32:57 sabalaba [~sabalaba@udhcp116.public.dc.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 15:33:55 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-igduwwtbkpnnkaaq] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:35:04 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-211-118.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 15:41:30 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:45:17 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:46:16 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 15:53:27 adu [~ajr@softbank220043139062.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:21 -!- drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:58:01 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-211-118.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:58:19 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@udhcp116.public.dc.umich.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:59:07 -!- euangelion [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:00:37 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 16:01:25 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:03:41 Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 16:05:30 -!- adu [~ajr@softbank220043139062.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 16:09:50 Is Xcode 4 officially released? 16:09:55 I thought not. 16:09:59 yes it is 16:10:12 oh sorry, wrong channel. 16:10:24 drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 16:11:03 ephcon [~ephcon@fredri.cc] has joined #lisp 16:11:17 :) 16:12:28 youguy [~youguy@89.pool85-56-107.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 16:14:09 rme: it is, but you have to buy it for $4.99 16:14:36 daniel__ [~daniel@p50829F41.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:51 slyrus: I'm in a developer program, so I get it free, but the requirement to purchase it if you're not a developer is going to be a problem for Mac users who want to stay up-to-date by building a lisp from source. 16:16:30 rme: do you really depend on *xcode* *4.0*? 16:16:43 euangelion [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:17:06 No, just tools like make, m4, cc, as, etc. 16:17:36 But the Xcode installation is where they come from. 16:17:40 -!- daniel_ [~daniel@p5B327156.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:17:45 3.x is fine for now, at least. Hopefully, binary distros will spring soon. 16:17:50 rme: my current suspicion is that it's the same accounting thing they have to do when they're selling upgrades for iOS on ipod touches; prediction: it'll be free again once lion comes out 16:17:58 (and then everyone will upgrade anyway (-:) 16:19:36 antifuchs: I hope so. That would be livable. 16:20:01 *rme* starts downloading 4GB of Xcode 4 in order to make ccl build with it. 16:20:07 I'm pretty sure this is what will happen. and if it doesn't, there is a homebrew bootstrap project in the works, might want to check it out 16:20:26 (but I believe that lost steam after some initial thought about how the situation will play out) 16:21:47 -!- youguy [~youguy@89.pool85-56-107.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:22:01 jdz [~jdz@host83-16-dynamic.4-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:23:38 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-159-177.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:23:44 -!- pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:23:49 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:24:11 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:30:05 GeneralMaximus [~general@122.163.238.87] has joined #lisp 16:36:00 -!- Ragnaroek [~Adium@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:36:49 rbancroft [~rumble@S0106000024ccf2b4.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:37:01 -!- longshot [~longshot@207.204.232.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:40:06 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:40:06 pnq [~nick@AC818A3F.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 16:40:21 -!- drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 16:45:08 -!- mega1 [~user@catv4E5C915D.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:45:15 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:45:47 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-212-126.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:47:29 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A5A68.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:47:34 jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-117.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:47:39 youguy [~youguy@89.pool85-56-107.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 16:48:23 -!- relcomp [~chatzilla@nat.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Iceape 2.0.11/20110302185706]] 16:49:13 -!- coffeemug [~coffeemug@adsl-76-254-60-115.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:50:39 ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 16:51:42 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-214-157.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:51:44 -!- nipra [~nipra@122.169.79.232] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:52:29 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-159-177.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:53:05 -!- rme [rme@clozure-CEC398A4.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 16:53:05 -!- rme [~rme@pool-68-238-4-125.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 16:54:15 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:57:03 -!- youguy [~youguy@89.pool85-56-107.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:57:10 urandom__ [~user@p548A5A68.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:30 -!- gozoner [~ebg@ebg-10004083621.jpl.nasa.gov] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:58:44 Bronsa [~brace@host50-182-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:59:09 coffeemug [~coffeemug@adsl-76-254-59-240.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:00:30 -!- mephisto_ [~mephisto@bas1-toronto07-1176322734.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:02:33 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d003e2d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:48 gozoner [~ebg@207.151.192.173] has joined #lisp 17:03:19 -!- Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:03:22 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.8.159.148] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:06:01 milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw80ffc152.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 17:06:37 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-135-128.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:39 -!- milkpost_ [~milkpost@dhcpw80ffc152.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:08:18 Fare [~Fare@64.119.159.126] has joined #lisp 17:08:36 OK, I'm looking again for someone with whom to do pair programming. 17:08:37 redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:56 I can pay at very uncompetitive rates, unless you happen to live in a poor country. 17:09:36 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw80ffc152.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 17:09:51 Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:10:04 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:10:14 Just out of curiosity ... what's the project? 17:10:37 Fare: hehe. maybe you have attractive work to compensate? 17:11:08 Fare: TUNES again? 17:11:08 persistent objects and distributed systems 17:11:36 not yet, but if this works out, we'll try 17:12:30 muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:31 (Persistent BASIC: 10 PRINT "Can I? Huh? Huh? Can I? Please can I?" 20 GOTO 10) 17:12:35 Fare: By the way, I noticed something last week regarding SBCL's ASDF. I had trouble loading SBCL contrib libraries when SBCL_HOME was not an absolute path. 17:12:37 anyway, if you see third world lisp hackers, send them my way 17:12:55 -!- gozoner [~ebg@207.151.192.173] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:12:57 Fare: we see a bunch of third-rate lisp hackers! 17:13:00 how about those? (: 17:13:05 reb: isn't it evil for SBCL_HOME to not be an absolute path? 17:13:33 Fare: Not sure. Until recently, it did not matter. 17:13:51 reb: OK, I have a fix which will be in for 2.013 -- thanks! 17:14:18 -!- pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:14:31 Great ... I'll check it out. 17:14:45 reb: not committed yet. 17:15:08 will be in 2.012.9 17:15:19 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 17:16:02 Persistent objects and distributed systems sounds interesting. What are you building? 17:16:38 -!- Rukowen [~Rukowen@222.253.77.233] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:18:53 -!- pnq [~nick@AC818A3F.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:19:58 mephisto_ [~mephisto@bas1-toronto07-1176322734.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 17:20:29 to start with, only xcvb and simple web sites. 17:20:41 later, we'll see 17:21:05 -!- Fare [~Fare@64.119.159.126] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:21:44 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@j109182.upc-j.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 17:23:22 HG` [~HG@dslb-188-109-172-050.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:23:36 youguy [~youguy@209.127.16.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:24:35 -!- astoon [~astoon@178-16-146-17.obit.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:25:45 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:26:16 antifuchs: like Lispers who are trying to use OLE? :-) 17:26:35 woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 17:28:21 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-159-177.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:28:34 -!- OliverUv [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:29:29 nanarpuss [~user@214.41.188.72.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:29:56 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-afsgcvooaxhdcxum] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:30:25 *slyrus* wants a more performant rucksack 17:30:48 I am new to CL and was wondering how to initialize a class that contains another class... Example a customer has an address 17:31:43 nanarpuss: you mean instances, right? 17:31:47 17:31:47 (defclass customer () 17:31:47 ((id :documentation "this is automatically assigned by cl-prevalence 17:31:50 when we persist the post object") 17:31:53 (name :accessor customer-name 17:31:56 :initarg :name 17:31:58 nanarpuss: use paste.lisp.org to paste 17:31:59 :initform "" 17:32:01 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 17:32:02 -!- nanarpuss [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has been kicked from #lisp by Xach (nanarpuss) 17:32:08 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 17:34:33 nanarpuss [~user@214.41.188.72.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:34:55 http://paste.lisp.org/+2KZK. 17:36:17 mattrepl [~mattrepl@204.14.152.118] has joined #lisp 17:36:18 nanarpuss: why don't you first create an instance of address, and then use it when creating the customer? 17:37:07 koning_robot [~user@s5597d50c.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #lisp 17:37:39 nanarpuss: and does it really make much sense to use empty strings as initforms for other fields? 17:38:44 I just wipped that up, those are the yas/snippet defaults for the class snippet 17:39:00 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@46.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:39:04 Bad defaults. 17:39:15 -!- lianj_ is now known as lianj 17:39:40 Here is the example code I was trying to use; https://bitbucket.org/S11001001/weblocks-dev/src/a6dec9ccdb5f/contrib/yarek/examples/employer-employee/src/model/person.lisp 17:40:22 amb007 [~a_bakic@46.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:55 the init form makes an instance, so you would think that it would set the values as well 17:42:58 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-167-223.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:44:10 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:44:18 muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:04 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-49-13-243.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:45:53 ehu: eek, no, not that "we" (-: 17:46:00 all our customers are amazing and awesome (: 17:46:10 billitch [~billitch@AMontsouris-153-1-29-4.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:48:42 -!- youguy [~youguy@209.127.16.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:49:13 -!- ckelly_ [~ckelly@biop230.leidenuniv.nl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:51:50 Ragnaroek [~Adium@p5B0C2846.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:09 slash_ [~unknown@pD955A93D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:05 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has left #lisp 17:54:38 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:58:01 youguy [~youguy@209.127.16.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:59:33 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-98-78.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:38 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-98-78.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:59:58 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.66.60] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:00:09 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-98-78.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:14 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-98-78.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:01:05 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-98-78.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:22 killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 18:07:05 gozoner [~ebg@ebg-10004083621.jpl.nasa.gov] has joined #lisp 18:07:07 -!- GeneralMaximus [~general@122.163.238.87] has quit [Quit: And we said: look at that fucker dance.] 18:07:28 -!- jweiss [~user@nat/redhat/x-kiibneexdlextpbw] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:07:41 -!- youguy [~youguy@209.127.16.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:08:10 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.80.94] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:08:41 -!- euangelion [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:09:00 macrobat_ [~fuzzyglee@h-152-12.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 18:09:54 pnq [~nick@AC81AD9A.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 18:10:02 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.80.61] has joined #lisp 18:10:36 -!- mephisto_ [~mephisto@bas1-toronto07-1176322734.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:10:57 nezZario [nezZario@adsl-222-69-74.jan.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:08 -!- nezZario [nezZario@adsl-222-69-74.jan.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 18:13:13 -!- jso [~user@wsip-70-164-99-62.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:14:44 jweiss [~user@nat/redhat/x-ilevjsyjtrqbbfpx] has joined #lisp 18:16:15 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has joined #lisp 18:16:17 rme [~rme@pool-68-238-4-125.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:00 awesome-o [~anonymous@208.74.177.139.static.etheric.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:46 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-215-201.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 18:23:22 -!- jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:25:51 -!- splittist [~splittist@26-83.62-81.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 18:28:58 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.3.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:29:29 -!- dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-101-147.xnet.hr] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 18:29:52 dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-101-147.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 18:29:53 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:30:06 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 18:30:21 *Xach* tries again to find someone to fix clsql+sbcl 18:32:18 hello lispers 18:33:16 I have a question about shallow copying of classes. 18:33:26 If all of the slot-values of an instance of class A are constants e.g. they satisfy CONSTANTP as 18:33:30 (constantp (slot-value instance-foo 'slot-value-is-constant)) 18:33:44 Is it safe to return a shallow copy of instance-foo of class A such that the returned copy instance-bar will not share mutable structure with instance-foo? 18:37:08 "safe" in what way? and do you intend the part after "such that" as something taken into consideration in the implementation of the "shallow copy", or merely as an assumption about its result? 18:37:09 <_3b> CONSTANTP tells whether a form /evaluates/ to a constant, not whether it /is/ a constant... (constantp (list 'quote 'foo)) => t 18:37:12 leifw [~user@ool-18bac6ad.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:16 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl21-72-72.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 18:38:41 adeht: safe in that the slots will only contain positive integer values 18:40:04 I don't understand what "positive integer values" have to do with anything 18:40:10 -!- fisted_ [~fisted@unaffiliated/fisted] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:40:18 -!- nanarpuss [~user@214.41.188.72.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:42:12 -!- slash_ [~unknown@pD955A93D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:42:19 IOW, if i do (setf instance-B (shallow-copy instance-A)) and then mutate the slot-values of instance-A those of instance-B will be "safe" from that mutation (assuming that each slot of instance-A was initially a constant) 18:42:27 loxs [~loxs@2002:4e5a:7cb3:0:224:d7ff:fe0a:73b4] has joined #lisp 18:42:58 <_3b> if you mutate the slots, it shouldn't affect a copy, if you mutate the values, it would 18:43:10 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:44:06 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-215-201.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:44:07 <_3b> 'constant' doesn't really have much meaning for values though 18:44:21 So, where the values are integers and can't be mutated they're safe? 18:44:50 <_3b> well, integers don't have identity, so shallow/deep doesn't really seem meaningful there 18:45:48 <_3b> and you can't mutate integers anyway 18:47:02 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:47:21 <_3b> same for characters 18:47:43 -!- weirdo [~sthalik@sthalik.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:47:46 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has joined #lisp 18:48:04 fisted [~fisted@unaffiliated/fisted] has joined #lisp 18:48:10 weirdo [~sthalik@sthalik.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:11 _3b: If the slot-values of class A were lists and i made a copy of instance-A to instance-B and then mutate the slot-values of instance-A could those of instance-B be affected? 18:48:53 -!- alama [~alama@194.117.18.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:48:56 mon_key: since there's no built-in copy, what kind of copy did you mean? 18:49:17 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:40 <_3b> if A and B have the same list in slot FOO, B would not see (setf (slot-value A 'foo) ...), but would see (setf (second (slot-value A 'foo)) ...) 18:50:18 <_3b> (assuming the (setf second) didn't fail) 18:50:42 It would be fun to make a language where you can mutate integers, just watching people fall with it! :-) 18:50:43 -!- benny [~benny@i577A3A87.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:50:43 -!- jikanter [~jordan@66.146.192.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:50:46 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:50:46 -!- vert2 [vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-lbtwgrxzmbgyrpqv] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:50:57 -!- CallToPower [~CallToPow@s15229144.onlinehome-server.info] has quit [Quit: > /dev/null 2>&1] 18:51:02 Xach: (with-slots (Q E D) instance-A (setf instance-B :Q Q :E E :D D)) 18:51:03 <_3b> didn't fortran have that? 18:51:18 -!- df_aldur [~df@aldur.bowerham.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:51:22 df_aldur [~df@aldur.bowerham.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:27 CallToPower [~CallToPow@s15229144.onlinehome-server.info] has joined #lisp 18:51:28 vert2 [vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-oqocesgblbmnolka] has joined #lisp 18:51:29 jikanter [~jordan@66.146.192.40] has joined #lisp 18:51:48 Xach: or rather (setf instance-b (with-slots (Q E D) instance-A (make-instance :Q Q :E E :D D))) 18:51:54 <_3b> mon_key: lists have identity, so if you put the same list in 2 places, both will see any changes made to the contents of that list 18:51:57 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-220-80.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 18:52:18 -!- aoh [~aki@80.75.102.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:52:21 benny [~benny@i577A3A87.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:52:27 <_3b> (but lists aren't an actual independent data type in CL, so some things that look like modifications of a list actually change bindings, like PUSH) 18:52:28 pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 18:52:56 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:52:56 -!- OODavo [~david@ppp121-45-187-135.lns20.syd7.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:53:09 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:53:11 aoh [~aki@80.75.102.51] has joined #lisp 18:54:00 _3b: Right, so my question is if I'm sure that the slot-values of the source are all integers (and won't change) then is it reasonable to assume that the "copy" of the source will not share structure with the original? 18:54:20 OODavo_ [~david@ppp121-45-187-135.lns20.syd7.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:56 *_3b* might say it would be more reasonable to 'verify in the copy' than 'assume' 18:55:28 ckelly_ [~ckelly@microgravity.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 18:55:45 if the slot values are integer then a shallow copy is enough 18:56:00 _3b: :) Well I've made some initial verifications and it seems to be so... I'm asking here in hopes for some reassurance 18:56:10 <_3b> i meant verify they are all integers 18:56:35 <_3b> since integers have no structure to share, if they are integers, they by definition can't share structure :) 18:56:48 ckelly [~ckelly@microgravity.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 18:56:56 OK Great! 18:57:11 -!- billitch [~billitch@AMontsouris-153-1-29-4.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:57:12 <_3b> (well, mutable structure, i suppose an insane implementation could share parts of bignums internally or something) 18:57:21 my concern... 18:57:59 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host50-182-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:58:17 Bronsa [~brace@host50-182-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:58:27 more specifically w/r/t _bignums_ 18:58:44 <_3b> right, from a user code point of view, there is no difference 18:59:00 adobriyan [~ad@vulture2-nat-42.telecom.by] has joined #lisp 18:59:24 So it would be an error for bignums to be mutatable in user code yes? 18:59:30 <_3b> bignums don't have identity, or mutable structure, so you can only change bindings 18:59:58 _3b: bindings? 19:00:10 OliverUv [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has joined #lisp 19:00:10 <_3b> variable bindings, etc 19:00:14 ah :) 19:00:22 -!- zmv [~daniel@c934a9f5.virtua.com.br] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:00:23 Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 19:01:13 adeht, _3b: Thank you for your input. 19:05:09 -!- pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:06:23 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:08:43 Soulman1 [~knute@250.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:08:50 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-220-80.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:13:06 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-157-151.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:49 -!- xinming_ is now known as 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[~sthalik@sthalik.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:23:38 jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 20:23:54 Ragnaroek1 [~Adium@p5B0C2846.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:32 Is there a way to have a list of '(x y) and be able to retrieve y by using x as a key? 20:24:55 <_3b> clhs assoc 20:24:56 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_assocc.htm 20:25:05 roger that 20:25:16 weirdo_ [~sthalik@sthalik.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:22 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-31-28-194.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 20:25:53 Ahh there we go, that was easy 20:25:55 there's also hash table 20:26:11 silenius [~silenus@p54946450.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:28 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:26:50 jsoft, might want to look at getf as well 20:26:53 clhs getf 20:26:54 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_getf.htm 20:27:49 -!- gozoner [~ebg@ebg-10004083621.jpl.nasa.gov] 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timeout: 260 seconds] 20:37:44 Hmm 20:37:53 -!- zomgbie_ [~jesus@84.119.85.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:38:49 zomgbie [~jesus@84.119.85.39] has joined #lisp 20:39:05 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-171-61.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:39:11 jsoft: with FIND, FIND-IF and FIND-IF-NOT you can also reach ever greater heights in that direction. 20:39:12 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 20:39:24 -!- hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:39:48 hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:23 tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has joined #lisp 20:41:53 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:42:38 HG` [~HG@dslb-188-109-172-050.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:31 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@84.119.85.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:44:17 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-53-100.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:44:22 zomgbie [~jesus@84.119.85.39] has joined #lisp 20:46:22 -!- fisted [~fisted@unaffiliated/fisted] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:46:25 -!- jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:46:25 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:46:55 Odaym [~unix@212.36.209.4] has joined #lisp 20:47:29 jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 20:49:28 -!- Odaym [~unix@212.36.209.4] has quit [Client Quit] 20:50:55 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-53-100.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:52:58 how would I use assoc with setf? 20:53:04 I cant seem to figure it out 20:53:17 fisted [~fisted@unaffiliated/fisted] has joined #lisp 20:53:23 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@84.119.85.39] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:53:41 faux [~user@c-219c70d5.035-128-67626713.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:53:57 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:54:52 -!- jweiss [~user@nat/redhat/x-ilevjsyjtrqbbfpx] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:55:31 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:55:44 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 20:55:44 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 20:55:44 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 20:56:27 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-157-151.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:56:45 marian_30 [~Florin@82.77.116.105] has joined #lisp 20:57:10 -!- marian_30 [~Florin@82.77.116.105] has left #lisp 20:58:27 clhs assoc 20:58:27 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_assocc.htm 20:59:03 jsoft: Looks like you wouldn't: It's a function, not an accessor. 20:59:29 There are some interesting examples in the spec, though. 20:59:46 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:00:33 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 21:02:07 -!- aoh [~aki@80.75.102.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:02:37 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-214-246.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 21:02:55 nyef: the `request-integer' you pasted the other afternoon: http://paste.lisp.org/+2KX6/1 21:03:20 mon_key: What about it? 21:03:34 The little-endian key says, "expect this array in little-endian"??? 21:03:41 Yes. 21:03:53 Well, sort of. 21:03:57 :) 21:04:11 Cheers 21:04:18 Time to go home :) 21:04:20 -!- jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:04:26 The array properly is an array of octets, endianness doesn't enter into things until you attempt to group the octets into a larger integer. 21:05:12 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 21:05:25 And I had to be able to support both, because this was originally written for the wire protocol handling of an X server. 21:05:31 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:06:07 nyef: yes. I can see the utility, just not clear on the semantics. 21:06:33 So :little-endian t says, "read array with msb last"? 21:06:52 Right, or lsb first. 21:07:22 Else default to msb first lsb last 21:07:40 Honestly, I never used it without passing the key. 21:08:01 :) I've been using it in the opposite manner... 21:08:24 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-214-246.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:08:53 ... And rarely used it directly anyway, since I had a pile of interpretation and verification that went on over and above merely obtaining the integers. 21:09:12 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:26 Hunh. 21:10:37 Okay, looks like I did tend to leave off the key for the big-endian case. 21:10:48 Yes, I need to make sure I don't misunderstand the intended usage. make sure i don't invert my bits. 21:11:20 Thing is, I always had to pair both big and little endian calls. 21:11:26 -!- fisted [~fisted@unaffiliated/fisted] has quit [Quit: brb] 21:11:39 pair? 21:12:16 like do the work for on the way to somewhere and then undo on the way back out? 21:12:27 (if (eq (client-state-byte-order client) :lsb-first) (request-integer ... :little-endian t) (request-integer ...)) 21:13:03 got it. 21:13:40 I suppose I might plausibly be able to implement it as a swizzle pass over completed packets, but... Bleh. 21:16:45 -!- weirdo_ is now known as weirdo 21:17:31 nyef annotated #120426 "A use example for REQUEST-INTEGER (SETF version)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120426#2 21:17:36 other than big-endian being the default for wire-protocols is there some utility in doing lsb first? 21:18:16 Some wire protocols don't default, you might want to use this on a binary file format which will have its own default, and so on. 21:19:36 (The X11 wire protocol, for example, doesn't default, the very first octet sent from client to server specifies the byte order that the client expects.) 21:20:05 hence the "interpretation and verification" you mention :) 21:20:27 thanks for the usage paste 21:21:20 Yeah, the entire field layout thing with the opcode and the length is part of a whole macrology built over request-integer. 21:22:19 Does X resource object lookup by ID, typechecks the result, can verify that an ID /doesn't/ refer to an X resource but is still in-range for one, handles enumerations, and so on. 21:22:40 (Enumeration values get converted to symbols as needed.) 21:23:13 aoh [~aki@80.75.102.51] has joined #lisp 21:24:00 -!- ckelly [~ckelly@microgravity.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:24:14 -!- HG` [~HG@dslb-188-109-172-050.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:24:38 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-214-246.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 21:25:08 A private project? 21:25:55 More abandoned than anything else. 21:26:13 http://www.lisphacker.com/projects/clxs/ 21:26:31 Just wondering ... yeah b/c it sounds like CLX 21:26:35 -!- ckelly_ [~ckelly@microgravity.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:26:46 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-214-246.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:26:49 It's supposed to sit on the other side of CLX. 21:28:38 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host50-182-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:29:03 Spion__ [~spion@77.29.254.208] has joined #lisp 21:29:43 ccorn [~ccorn@j109182.upc-j.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 21:31:49 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 21:31:52 :{ "The :typecheck slot option was a clear sign of the breakdown of this system" 21:32:26 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:32:40 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 21:32:51 And it was. 21:32:53 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:33:08 pnq [~nick@ACA28512.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 21:33:50 ckelly [~ckelly@microgravity.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 21:34:04 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:34:55 Actually, there's a sixth type that the breakdown missed: Timestamp fields typically have an option to interpret the value 0 as "CurrentTime". 21:35:27 Wow, six years already. 21:36:07 so you've got these types flying in by the *load and each one has to be frobbed including decoding what may or may not be a timestamp... 21:36:37 Right. 21:37:20 The latter sounds like the straw for that camel 21:37:22 ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 21:37:25 So there's the base type which says how much space in the request is involved for the field and its signedness. 21:38:05 And then there's binding forms, validators, and so on. 21:39:31 ckelly_ [~ckelly@microgravity.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 21:39:35 Hrm. Not sure at this point if the resource types generate the correct error if the ID for an unallocated resource is passed. 21:40:43 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-214-246.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 21:40:44 Ah. Returns a bogus value, then the validator catches it. Perfect. 21:41:49 e.g. +motion-buffer-size+, +min-keycode+, etc. 21:42:36 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:42:46 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has joined #lisp 21:43:11 Right, there's stuff like that too. 21:43:23 -!- pebkc [~user@ip-89-102-12-202.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:43:34 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:43:51 -!- faux [~user@c-219c70d5.035-128-67626713.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:44:56 Iguess clx/request-stubs.lisp illustrates the timestamp wall 21:45:05 (disassemble '=) is an interesting thing in SBCL, I am afraid of the very thought about an X server in Common Lisp 21:45:07 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@adsl-32-14-244.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 21:45:08 Atomsk [ace4016@adsl-32-14-244.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:26 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-214-246.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:45:43 request-stubs shows a pile of things that just aren't represented well / at all in the current system. 21:46:13 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-214-246.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 21:46:16 current system being X or CLXS? 21:46:29 mon_key: CLXS. 21:46:53 EarlGray: One interesting part is that it can end up calling GENERIC-=. 21:48:12 ... at some point I really should clean up and commit my better-disassembly patches for x86oids. 21:50:22 what is the GENERIC-= doing that is so bad? 21:50:32 It's passing the buck? 21:51:11 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:51:28 = itself appears to be doing some of the more basic tests, but there's clearly a support routine for the harder cases. 21:51:36 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:52:00 teurastaja [~Samuel@modemcable182.177-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:52:00 Hmm... And that's an assembly-routine, I think. 21:52:24 arith.lisp 21:53:00 Yeah, SYS:SRC;ASSEMBLY;TARGET;ARITH. 21:54:00 are there good tutorials for common lisp for schemers? 21:54:04 so bad on x86 b/c it eats to registers? 21:54:10 So, = itself is breaking things down to two values at a time and then passing the buck to GENERIC-=... 21:54:28 OK 21:54:36 It's not bad, it's interesting. 21:56:30 of course. But w/r/t GENERIC-= the SBCL compiler annotates like like I just donkey punched it. 21:57:38 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-63-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:57:52 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-63-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:47 Mmm. Right, because you've got a good chunk of funcall overhead there, plus the possibility of doing a full call over the top of that, and if the compiler knows that, for example, one side of the check is definitely a FIXNUM, it can inline the entire thing as a single compare instruction. 21:58:48 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 21:59:18 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d003e2d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:59:52 huh. So, thats what the (declare (type foo &optional)) is about 22:01:17 Further, if it's used as a predicate for flow control, it can elide the production of T/NIL results, and then under certain circumstances it can actually predicate the consequent of a test to a conditional move instruction. 22:01:21 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:02:50 "it" being `='? 22:03:02 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-214-246.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:03:09 Yes. 22:03:18 Or any other simple predicate of the same order. 22:03:32 Such as `<', `EQ', and so on. 22:04:37 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-214-246.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 22:06:20 but to take advantage of the elision the compiler needs the to be able to have a guaranteed inference of the consequent for the "certain circumstances" cases? 22:06:38 bhyde [~bhyde@50.10.201.28] has joined #lisp 22:07:09 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 22:07:22 Well, eliding producing a T/NIL for something used in an IF, no, it just needs to be able to completely inline the predicate. 22:07:29 -!- teurastaja [~Samuel@modemcable182.177-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 22:07:33 -!- superflit_ [~superflit@140.226.49.148] has quit [Quit: superflit_] 22:08:03 But in order to use predicated code (i.e., CMOV) for a consequent, the predicate itself may need to be inlined. 22:08:16 -!- Ragnaroek1 [~Adium@p5B0C2846.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:08:39 Though, thinking about it, if the predicate isn't inlined, it really boils down to testing (NOT (EQ NIL)) anyway, and that /is/ inlinable. 22:09:08 OK. I wasn't clear on "predicate". This is predicationg on booleans :) 22:09:19 Yeah, sorry. 22:09:23 *p_l|backup* ponders if there's a way to make NIL a pointer to 0 22:09:28 We have two meanings for the term "predicate" going on here. 22:10:05 p_l|backup: sure, just allocate some memory at address 0. But...Oh wait! You can't do that on linux, cause the kernel is stupid. :) 22:10:07 p_l|backup: In some sense, yes, but in SBCL it's actually a CONS with CAR and CDR of NIL. 22:10:32 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-128-236.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:36 foom: You can't? You /used/ to be able to... 22:10:51 actually, it shouldn't matter if you can write there or not 22:10:55 Food time, back in a few. 22:11:05 and you can setup minimal base for mmap in system config 22:11:19 (usually it's one page) 22:11:28 nyef: thanks for the insights! 22:11:33 enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-76-245-62-252.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:42 foom: also, why do you need to allocate memory there? 22:11:56 I thought about lisp for lowlevel programming and my humble impress is that there must be static typization like Scheme's one 22:11:57 p_l|backup: so that (car nil) continues to work. 22:12:00 *impression 22:12:20 nyef: Yes, you can't by default these days so that null pointer derefs in the kernel aren't as easy to exploit. sysctl vm.mmap_min_addr = 65536 22:12:23 foom: unless you make all locative-related low-level operations recognize 0 as nil 22:12:55 p_l|backup: it would be rather unfortunate if car and cdr grew a conditional branch 22:13:30 foom: inlined and predicated it shouldn't be so bad... 22:14:20 zmv [~daniel@c934a9f5.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 22:14:23 EarlGray: was reading an interesting passage in David Foster Wallace's "everything an more" the other night w/r/t 0 v nil -- I'd never realized how fundamentally rooted the distinction was in maths and my immediate reaction was that scheme/C got it wrong. Though obv. no one told the GUI designers :) 22:14:43 I don't see how that'd really help much with something like cdddr. 22:14:50 -!- Intensity [qQqJinT8oV@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Quit: Intensity] 22:15:32 foom: if you do a cddddr on NIL it should do only one comparison, IMHO 22:15:46 p_l|backup: uh, but it has to check between every access 22:15:56 any of the d's could return nil 22:16:04 right now it's a nice straightforward: MOV RAX, [RCX+1]; MOV RAX, [RAX+1]; MOV RAX, [RAX+1]; MOV RDX, [RAX-7] 22:16:13 yuk 22:16:20 entropax [~entropi@192.55.55.37] has joined #lisp 22:16:38 eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 22:16:57 foom: I'll admit that it wasn't exactly an idea for *fast* CL, though 22:16:58 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:17:12 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@50.10.201.28] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 22:17:19 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.148.246] has joined #lisp 22:17:51 I was more worried about a way to make the system safely relocatable without going through the whole image to do fixups while retaining direct addressing 22:18:45 do you really need a relocatable executable? How about just making the dynamic space relocatable? 22:19:11 Most of the time people don't even compile C programs as relocatable. 22:19:32 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 22:19:40 foom: on my sbcl (disassemble #'cdr) is just MOV RDX, [RCX+1]; CLC; POP RBP; RET; (plus error traps) 22:19:50 foom: SBCL as is fails horribly on higher security settings in Linux and afaik still has has the infamous relocation problems win32 22:19:54 ilmari: that was cadddr 22:20:23 p_l|backup: that's only because it doesn't use normal executable space which the OSes know how to deal with 22:20:35 p_l|backup: if you built the static space into the binary, that'd work fine 22:20:46 (that is: rather than mmaping it after the fact) 22:21:10 *_3b* thought the windows problems were inability to fragment heap rather than relocation 22:21:19 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.8.159.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:21:50 -!- brad_ [~brad@pool-74-101-124-88.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: brad_] 22:21:53 no, the windows problem is that other libraries get placed where sbcl wants to mmap its stuff 22:22:00 completely unpredictably 22:22:07 <_3b> if you want a few GB of contiguous address space on 32bit OS, it doesn't matter much where you put it 22:22:10 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:22:18 <_3b> well, on windows 22:22:28 (because in windows its common practice for random crap to insert itself into all other processes' address space) 22:22:55 Okay, I'm back. 22:23:04 <_3b> right, but how much of that mmap is stuff that is actually there as opposed to just reserved space for heap? 22:23:16 bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:23:18 Actually, it typically /is/ DLLs. 22:23:30 any fixed-location mmap is bad news 22:23:33 milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 22:23:38 if you want it to be fixed, you need to bake it into the executable image 22:23:48 We still haven't committed lichtblau's heap-relocation stuff, have we? 22:23:58 that's the only way that actually works reliably. 22:24:09 lichtblau hasn't forward-ported his heap-relocation stuff to HEAD yet 22:24:17 slacker 22:24:21 p_l|backup: re: issues with higher security settings: just wondering, since I'm installing linux+grsecurity+[pax, am i in for an endless string of headaches with sbcl? 22:24:29 clhs copy-structure 22:24:29 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_cp_stu.htm 22:24:41 -!- Ragnaroek [~Adium@p5B0C2846.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:24:42 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:24:44 -!- EarlGray [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has left #lisp 22:24:50 blackwolf: no, it's an easy issue: sbcl disables library relocation at startup. you need to allow it to do so. 22:24:55 EarlGray [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:02 -!- PissedNu1lock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:25:02 library location randomization, I should say. 22:25:18 Pretty much just that one headache. :) 22:25:37 anyways... 22:25:39 foom: 'k - thx. wanted to know if I should go back to a vanilla kernel. 22:25:41 *foom* is gone for the day 22:25:50 I had also slowly come around to jsnell's argument that 64 bit ISAs solve all of these problems, given that Windows on Intel is moving strongly to AMD64. 22:26:10 That was before Windows 8 went for 32-bit arm though. :-) 22:26:18 -!- adobriyan [~ad@vulture2-nat-42.telecom.by] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:26:26 -!- silenius [~silenus@p54946450.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:26:41 foom: ISTR that recent OSXes are compiled with -fPIC -fPIE 22:27:38 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-214-157.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:28:14 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-214-246.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:29:34 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A5A68.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:31:40 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-53-100.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo] 22:32:30 -!- keyvan [keyvan@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:32:48 francogrex [~user@109.130.117.84] has joined #lisp 22:32:58 brad_ [~brad@pool-74-101-124-88.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:59 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d012bd9.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:33:38 Raykon [~user@81.193.140.230] has joined #lisp 22:34:04 -!- brad_ [~brad@pool-74-101-124-88.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:34:47 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:37:20 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@204.14.152.118] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 22:39:46 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:42 tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:52 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:45:14 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-214-246.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 22:47:08 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:47:35 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:47:47 -!- pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:48:19 fisted [~fisted@unaffiliated/fisted] has joined #lisp 22:50:36 -!- myu2 [~myu2@x108121.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:52:58 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:53:09 keyvan [~keyvan@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:26 -!- dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-101-147.xnet.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:53:29 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.87.61.212] has joined #lisp 22:54:27 dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-101-147.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 22:55:00 zomgbie_ [~jesus@85-127-212-159.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 22:55:14 -!- fisted [~fisted@unaffiliated/fisted] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:56:17 PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 22:57:08 -!- Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:57:31 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-214-246.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:58:45 -!- ckelly_ [~ckelly@microgravity.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:58:49 -!- ckelly [~ckelly@microgravity.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:00:28 timepilot [~timepilot@99.55.95.55] has joined #lisp 23:00:59 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-92-126-186.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:01:14 -!- timepilot [~timepilot@99.55.95.55] has quit [Client Quit] 23:01:50 ckelly [~ckelly@microgravity.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 23:04:23 cesarbp [~chatzilla@201.151.79.16] has joined #lisp 23:04:53 Hi 23:05:01 Anyone knows something like CAPI but for CCL? 23:05:55 Yes. It's called cocoa :-) 23:06:08 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.87.61.212] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 23:06:35 -!- Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:07:25 -!- ckelly [~ckelly@microgravity.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:07:46 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:08:04 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.117.84] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:08:34 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 23:09:14 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:09:21 cocotron? xD 23:09:50 -!- zomgbie_ [~jesus@85-127-212-159.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:10:06 blackwolf: personally I'd rathr go with a MAC security system as the better way to secure linux rather than grsecurity+pax 23:11:13 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@j109182.upc-j.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 23:11:20 I'm using windows 23:11:56 -!- shaunren [~shaun@bas2-cooksville17-1279557136.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:12:06 I guess you could try cocotron... but afaik it has issues with building on non-OSX systems (cross compilation), dunno if they were fixed 23:12:30 ZabaQ1 [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 23:13:10 ZabaQ2 [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 23:13:32 <_3b> hmm, defservice and defservice.hunchentoot have diverged slightly 23:13:43 *_3b* wonders if the changes are worth merging 23:14:54 -!- ZabaQ2 [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:15:29 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:16:50 -!- ZabaQ1 [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:17:45 davertron [~david@c-24-218-166-166.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:19 can anyone explain why read-char needs recursive-p? the semantics don't appear to depend on it from what i can tell. 23:18:21 <_3b> or i suppose the correct fix would be to extract the hunchentoot specific bits into a separate repo, which could be used with the original defservice 23:19:08 -!- waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-4d0484e4.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: WTF? leaving!] 23:19:29 francogrex [~user@109.130.117.84] has joined #lisp 23:20:06 <_3b> clhs 23.1.3.2 23:20:06 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/23_acb.htm 23:20:13 I am trying to step through this; how can I examine every call, every argument at every level: http://paste.lisp.org/display/120520 23:20:15 <_3b> ^ says it might affect the error from eof 23:20:36 it seems to just skip over 23:21:33 *_3b* has only used the stepper through slime, and not much even that way 23:21:37 ahh, right. yes, so it gives a hint to the error we signal, that sort of makes sense 23:22:36 always struck me as a bit naughty, having read-char so aware of what the reader was doing. :) 23:22:40 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 23:22:49 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 23:23:13 thanks _3b 23:23:15 francogrex: Not sure about step, but what do you expect trace to do? 23:23:19 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 23:23:24 _3b: the stepper seems ok for few things but in this case it is quite uninformative 23:23:26 yay. cl-jpeg (and opticl's usage of it) fixed on ABCL. 23:23:38 horay! :) 23:23:52 rtoym: trace doesn't do anything much here because I trace only the "outer" function... 23:24:26 but I expect step to be more "interesting", however not in this case 23:25:02 tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.66.60] has joined #lisp 23:27:10 Is it just me or (quit) never actually works on sbcl? 23:27:15 francogrex: Right. Don't know about step. Maybe the debugger doesn't know anything about the local function? 23:27:35 <_3b> drdo: make sure you are using it from the right package 23:27:55 drdo: works all the time if you use --disable-debugger, even in the wrong package (-; 23:28:05 _3b: cl-user 23:28:14 more seriously, it's (sb-ext:quit) 23:28:19 should exit sbcl cleanly 23:28:24 tronador_ [~guille@190.66.173.210] has joined #lisp 23:28:27 ; Evaluation aborted on NIL. 23:28:29 <_3b> drdo: yeah, usually works for me from there, aside from the times when the debugger was broken 23:28:30 I just get this 23:28:36 even on a fresh repl 23:28:40 I believe there's a :recklessly-p t argument 23:28:51 <_3b> might change if you have extra threads 23:29:54 hmm 23:29:55 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:30:24 I've just noticed it just doesn't work in slime 23:30:37 I never actually use the built-in repl 23:30:43 ah 23:30:44 <_3b> yeah, slime probably starts extra threads 23:30:49 it sure does 23:30:53 <_3b> use slime to kill it, or maybe the :reckles option 23:31:02 ,quit on the slime repl 23:31:11 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:31:13 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:31:21 *_3b* usually just kills the *inferior-lisp* buffer 23:31:32 _3b: It's what i end up doing most of the time 23:31:42 it's just a minor annoyance 23:31:51 <_3b> or ,restart-inferior-lisp 23:32:03 <_3b> if the lisp is still running well enough to interact with :) 23:32:16 mazin [~user@dhcp-0-f-3d-bc-41-3b.cpe.quickclic.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:30 -!- mazin [~user@dhcp-0-f-3d-bc-41-3b.cpe.quickclic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:32:33 i was restarting it a lot lately playing around with foreign libs 23:32:42 they go crazy 23:32:46 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-153-40.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:33:06 <_3b> yeah, ,rest is good for that sort of thing 23:33:28 I'm still trying to figure out why webkit crashes on me 23:33:36 when i try to watch flash 23:33:42 -!- Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-17-38.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:33:52 only from lisp, works in c 23:34:07 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 23:34:26 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:35:08 <_3b> hmm, that could be useful thing if it worked, would be nice to automate loading/displaying a flash app after i recompile it, until i can get to the point of actually using slime 23:35:54 Anyone know any CL GUI toolkits that aren't in construction? :p 23:35:57 I wanted to write a browser i could actually use comfortably 23:35:59 rookiejet [~mazin@dhcp-0-f-3d-bc-41-3b.cpe.quickclic.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:08 under construction* 23:36:12 cesarbp: cl-gtk2 works pretty well 23:36:15 <_3b> cesarbp: i'm pretty sure nobody is working on garnet anymore :p 23:36:15 -!- rookiejet [~mazin@dhcp-0-f-3d-bc-41-3b.cpe.quickclic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:36:18 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 23:36:26 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.148.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:36:30 fisted [~fisted@unaffiliated/fisted] has joined #lisp 23:36:30 cesarbp: LTK looked pretty much finished 23:36:46 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.148.246] has joined #lisp 23:36:53 thanks i'll check them out 23:37:01 antifuchs: is that any good? 23:37:01 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:37:12 was useful for some people 23:37:21 I haven't used it, but have heard good things about it 3 years ago 23:37:24 <_3b> mcclim has been pretty static lately, not sure it is 'done' though, CAPI and commercial CLIMs might also qualify 23:37:34 gui toolkits are an enormous pita to write 23:37:42 anyway, the most useful and stable GUI toolkit is probably hunchentoot serving styled HTML (: 23:38:42 antifuchs: that's pretty awful to use :P 23:39:02 drdo: what? hunchentoot? I don't think so! 23:39:11 no not hunchentoot 23:39:14 (and certainly not styled html) 23:39:16 hunchentoot is really nice 23:39:22 web is awful to use as gui 23:39:26 Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-17-38.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:39:37 we've been there before. I have done web projects and I don't think it is awful 23:39:41 If you want any sort of nice environment 23:39:42 ah too many choices 23:39:56 what's the simplest easiest one :S? 23:40:12 cesarbp: what do you want to make? 23:41:30 -!- fisted [~fisted@unaffiliated/fisted] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:41:35 <_3b> ltk and capi are probably the main serious choices, or cl-gtk2 and commonqt if you can accept a bit more 'under construction' 23:42:34 uhm well... 23:42:37 <_3b> McCLIM has some interesting ideas, but you will have to work harder to run on all popular platforms or to make it look modern 23:42:44 fisted [~fisted@unaffiliated/fisted] has joined #lisp 23:43:07 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-63-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:43:16 some user interface to access a postgres database pretty much 23:43:51 gtk has some nice widgets that would probably be useful for that 23:44:13 web isn't bad either 23:44:28 i guess I'll just try hunchentoot 23:44:46 cesarbp: mind that hunchentoot is just an httpd server 23:45:12 You might want to check out something like weblocks 23:45:19 ah, so it's used instead of apache? 23:45:24 I'm pretty new at this :/ 23:45:47 cesarbp: check out weblocks and see if it fits your needs 23:46:30 kk 23:46:45 yay glut unhandled memory faults 23:46:53 out of nowhere 23:47:13 cesarbp: I'm proxying to hunchentoot through apache - the static file handling in apache makes me less nervous (: 23:47:43 (also, apache does gzip compression and stuff that I don't have to worry about in lisp, so that can concentrate purely on pushing out replies) 23:47:55 youguy [~youguy@89.pool85-56-107.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 23:48:03 ok 23:48:10 antifuchs: pretty sure hunchentoot can do static file handling? 23:48:22 I am sure it can 23:48:34 <_3b> drdo: yeah, but apache/nginx/etc have more people worried about optimizing that sort of thing :) 23:48:37 the thing is, I'm more comfortable with apache (or in the latest case, nginx) doing it 23:48:41 timepilot [~timepilot@99.55.95.55] has joined #lisp 23:48:58 AFAICT, they mmap files and sendfile them. less overhead on the lisp side. 23:49:28 ideally, there'd be a varnish cache in front of the whole thing, at which point you can forget about static file-serving web servers again (: 23:49:39 (varnish pretty much blows everything else out of the water, even at insanely high loads) 23:49:51 _3b: what is there to optimize? 23:50:00 you just keep it ram 23:50:06 *it in 23:50:14 <_3b> what, the entire filesystem? 23:50:15 -!- fisted [~fisted@unaffiliated/fisted] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:50:30 are you going to serve the entire filesystem? 23:50:41 *_3b* expects to have quite a few gigs of static files if i ever get my site live 23:50:51 most servers do that 23:51:08 *_3b* cannot afford a server with quite a few gigs of ram any time soon :p 23:51:09 until you get into several gigs, where you need some other form 23:51:49 It doesn't really matter anyway if your traffic is low 23:52:18 Why is glut going crazy on me when i redefine methods? 23:52:44 <_3b> is it calling them while you redefine them? 23:53:03 don't think so, i'm closing the window before i do it 23:53:21 *_3b* does not know then, mostly uses glop these days 23:53:40 <_3b> (not that it doesn't go crazy regularly either) 23:53:44 -!- davertron [~david@c-24-218-166-166.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:54:21 *_3b* should go through both and add a bunch of restarts 23:54:23 _3b: What's the difference, glop vs glut? 23:55:09 <_3b> glop pushes the lisp<->c boundary out further, so there is more control from lisp (but also less 'been fixed after years of attempted use on lots of configurations') 23:55:28 nyef: if the first page is zeroed, you'd essentially get a CONS cell (NIL NIL) at address 0, right? :) 23:55:52 I would love some cl-opengl docs :S 23:56:04 p_l|backup: Yeah, you do. 23:56:05 *_3b* would love time to work on them :/ 23:56:27 _3b: How do i use with-primitive(s) ? 23:56:33 -!- timepilot [~timepilot@99.55.95.55] has quit [Quit: timepilot] 23:56:37 antifuchs: actually, mmap isn't necessarily the best option. there are zero-copy interfaces though, as well as scatter-gather I/O available, fortunately 23:56:50 I'm assuming it's just a wrapper around begin and end? 23:56:52 (including some better alternatives to sendfile, iirc) 23:56:54 p_l|backup: That said, having NIL be represented as an all-bits-clear pointer screws a few things up unless it's also FIXNUM zero. 23:56:56 <_3b> it basically replaces a gl:begin gl:end pair 23:57:07 nyef: what if it is? 23:57:13 _3b: What's the mode? keyword? 23:57:24 <_3b> yeah, should be 23:57:24 nyef: and the top bit is used instead? 23:57:34 (for tags) 23:57:44 then it's probably me being a dumbass 23:57:44 BIBOP again? 23:57:52 BIBOP? 23:57:53 No, you still lose for arithmetic overflow. 23:58:05 BIg Bag Of Pages 23:58:43 btw, what gets screwed by NIL as all-zero pointer? 23:58:46 <_3b> (gl:with-primitives :triangles (gl:vertex ...) ...) 23:59:02 p_l|backup: I'm sure that whatever faster/better method is available, varnish uses that (: 23:59:12 (these people are very insane) 23:59:29 SBCL fixnum tags are all-low-bits-zero for a good reason involving addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, and boxing/unboxing cost. 23:59:41 btbngr: I guess that's to _avoid_ resetting the circularity table. 23:59:56 _3b: Yep, that's what i did initially, but they aren't showing, probably me putting it outside the clipping volume or some other dumb thing 23:59:57 btbngr: but I agree, it's not obvious. 23:59:58 nyef: ah, right