00:00:24 that's funny. the truck lives in arroyo seco. 00:01:02 that's like 10 miles away -- nothing by NM standards 00:01:07 strange confluences 00:02:10 Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 00:04:59 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:05:41 its plausible 00:06:23 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has left #lisp 00:06:23 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-98-78.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:07:16 -!- Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:13:53 -!- McMAGIC-- [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:14:26 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:14:36 splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 00:16:15 tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 00:18:30 -!- jokoon [~zonax@feu30-1-82-242-58-229.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:18:59 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.66.173.210] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 00:19:26 McMAGIC-- [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--] has joined #lisp 00:23:50 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:18 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:28:33 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 00:29:57 Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 00:32:19 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 00:32:28 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:33:15 tronador_ [~guille@190.66.173.210] has joined #lisp 00:33:57 Jubb [~ghost@c-98-204-160-127.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:35:58 -!- Odaym [~unix@212.36.209.4] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:36:14 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sbahra] 00:39:31 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:41:31 *Saturnation* celebrates using mapcar for the first time in his own code 00:41:34 Yippee! 00:41:37 ltriant [~ltriant@124-168-76-146.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 00:43:29 o.O 00:43:37 longfin [~longfin@49.62.83.253] has joined #lisp 00:46:02 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:47:01 -!- longfin [~longfin@49.62.83.253] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:47:22 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:47:33 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.119.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:47:57 tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.66.112] has joined #lisp 00:48:43 jokoon [~zonax@feu30-1-82-242-58-229.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:48 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:40 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:41 huangho [~vitor@201-35-188-38.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 00:51:16 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 00:51:46 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:52:20 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 00:54:06 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:56:34 stassats: any chance your around? 00:56:40 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:56:45 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@173-10-44-57-Michigan.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:58:38 Saturnation: only now? :) 00:59:48 p_l|home: Given how long it was before I used DEFGENERIC and DEFMETHOD, I'm not entirely surprised. 00:59:56 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:00:31 bhyde [~bhyde@50.10.201.28] has joined #lisp 01:00:34 Saturnation: congrats. FWIW i still have trouble rememberin the all powerfull `map' 01:00:55 *p_l|home* things he only ever called map once or twice in his life, other than by mistake 01:00:59 I still rarely use the MAP functions. 01:01:00 *thinks 01:01:13 :) thats encouraging. 01:01:17 It's usually far, far easier to use LOOP. 01:01:26 nyef: DEFGENERIC and DEFMETHOD were my two big showstoppers for looong time 01:01:51 cause I got out of OOP-induced funk quite a lot later thanmy first jab at CL 01:02:45 Heh. I came from a C background, and did some of my OO in C, so I had no problem just sticking a function object in a struct slot. 01:03:09 pnq [~nick@ACA2470A.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 01:03:10 ... or a symbol-value slot. 01:03:29 -!- Jubb [~ghost@c-98-204-160-127.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:04:13 Jubb [~ghost@c-98-204-160-127.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:05 I use (MAP NIL) all the time, fwiw. 01:06:59 <_3b> MAP is nice when you don't know what kind of sequence you will have 01:07:12 -!- jokoon [~zonax@feu30-1-82-242-58-229.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:07:31 <_3b> (and don't feel like writing sbcl-only LOOP code) 01:07:48 Just a matter of learning to see when to use it 01:08:06 *Saturnation* keeps trying to use loop and fails miserably (since he didn't need it in the end...) 01:08:07 Saturnation: you'd think so... 01:08:21 I do think so 01:08:23 i use the various maps all the time 01:08:36 *Saturnation* has a pure maths background... 01:08:50 though it's been a very long time since I've had to use any of it :( 01:10:30 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.66.173.210] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 01:10:51 tronador_ [~guille@190.66.173.210] has joined #lisp 01:11:08 Saturnation: So you'll have no proble with this: (map #'list #'list "a" "a" "c") 01:11:56 -!- Davsebamse [~davse@0x573457e0.hinxx3.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:12:14 -!- ElizabethDysart [~Elizabeth@c-67-184-184-26.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:12:14 mon_key: yes we have. It's wrong. 01:12:15 wtf is (map (function list) ...) supposed to mean? 01:12:18 er (map 'list #'list "a" "a" "c") 01:12:31 ElizabethDysart [~Elizabeth@c-67-184-184-26.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:32 mon_key: do not write #'x, write (function x), and you won't make such silly errors! 01:12:55 mon_key: you could also avoid 'x and write (quote x), for a newbie, that makes you avoid also quite a number of errors. 01:13:06 -!- spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-111-135.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: .] 01:13:15 sorry was in fundamental mode and it works with my elisp cribbed version of map from SBCL seqs.lisp :P 01:13:26 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@50.10.201.28] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 01:14:49 pjb: (map (quote list) (function list) "a" "b" c") -- isn't that kinda verbose? 01:15:00 *_3b* ponders a (map 'function ...) that returns a closure that returns successive elements of the mapping every time it is called 01:15:18 mon_key: it's kinda nice, with all those chubby parentheses. 01:15:27 _3b: functions aren't sequences. 01:15:38 <_3b> pkhuong: true 01:19:39 pjb: I will try to take your advice. I'm still unlearning some bad elisp habits. like what i should give to vars in a let form when var is initially null 01:20:08 -!- Jubb [~ghost@c-98-204-160-127.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:20:26 depends on what you want to express 01:21:17 empty list, go for '() or nil, nil as in (or null ) either nil or no explicit value 01:22:21 tcr: I'm getting the '() thing down for empty list its the latter that is difficult. 01:22:56 -!- parcs_ is now known as parcs 01:23:52 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 01:24:39 nil = boolean false ; 'nil = symbol nil ; '() = empty list data 01:24:44 i think i remember reading somewhere recently that the ideal way for empty list is: (let ((a (list))) {...} 01:25:01 bhyde [~bhyde@50.10.201.28] has joined #lisp 01:25:51 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 01:25:57 -!- ElizabethDysart [~Elizabeth@c-67-184-184-26.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:26:17 mon_key: No, I discourrage that. In general, the function list returns a mutable object. (list) returns an immutable one. So it's better to use '(), I think. 01:27:31 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Client Quit] 01:27:41 pjb: I wish I could remember where i read that. Maybe i misunderstood the context 01:28:50 Besides, (list) denotes a function call while '() denotes a mere literal, so both for the compiler and the human reader, '() should use less neurons. 01:28:50 pjb: So wrt #'foo is there some detriment aside from the potential for noob mistake? 01:29:12 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-83-182.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 01:29:21 cfy [~cfy@122.228.135.217] has joined #lisp 01:29:21 You could get pinched by the sharp edges of # ; otherwise it is strictly equivalent to (function foo). 01:29:25 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.135.217] has quit [Changing host] 01:29:25 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 01:31:58 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@50.10.201.28] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 01:31:58 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 01:32:46 Jubb [~ghost@c-98-204-160-127.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:35:39 Still having trouble with why this returns a list of a list of chars 01:35:40 (map 'list #'list "a" "b" "c" "d") ;=> ((#\a #\b #\c #\d)) 01:36:25 "a" is a vector of char. (function list) is the function that is called with the first characters of each string, then with the second characters of each string, then with the third... until one end of string is reached. 01:37:23 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:38:35 e.g. (map 'list #'list #(#\a) #(#\b) #(#\c) #(#\d)) 01:38:38 gz` [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 01:39:19 -!- jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:39:25 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:39:35 billstclair_ [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 01:39:43 mon_key: yes. But #(#\a) is not read as a (vector character), but as a (vector t) so it's not a string. 01:39:49 -!- billstclair_ is now known as billstclair 01:39:57 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Changing host] 01:39:57 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 01:40:03 Both "a" and #(#\a) are vectors containing characters thought. 01:40:11 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:41:05 bhyde [~bhyde@50.10.201.28] has joined #lisp 01:42:54 Yes. so doing this on SBCL w/ SB-UNICODE will get you differently 01:42:54 (map 'list #'list "" "É" "Ã" "Õ") 01:42:56 paradoja [~paradoja@acceso-cmp174-132.lpa.idec.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:14 Why? 01:43:25 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:41 because its implementation defined and SBCL treats the char types as different 01:44:16 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 01:44:23 from the spec: "... element type of the resulting array is the result of upgrading that..." 01:44:47 *_3b* isn't sure what you mean by 'different' there, does the same thing as the "a" "b" "c" just with longer character names 01:44:49 -!- xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:46:19 is there a nicer way of doing this? (setf (gethash word words) (1+ (gethash word words 0))) 01:46:27 (incf (gethash word words 0)) 01:46:35 nice, thanks 01:46:36 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:47:00 Notice that you can even write something like: (incf (gethash word words (incf x))) and x is incremented only once. 01:48:21 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:48:25 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:48:40 On the other hand, if you wrote: (setf (gethash word words (incf x)) (1+ (gethash word words (incf x)))) x would be incremented twice. 01:49:07 <_3b> kind of silly to provide the default on the setf call though :) 01:49:17 <_3b> (but the point stands for the other arguments) 01:49:18 Yes. 01:50:01 <_3b> (incf (gethash (pop list-of-words) hash 0)) for example 01:50:57 setf expanders are great. One of the finest invention of Lisp, IMO. 01:51:38 spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-111-135.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:51:54 hi 01:52:02 Bonne nuit! 01:52:25 ;) 01:53:27 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has left #lisp 01:53:28 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:53:33 _3b: what you suggest is more like this: 01:53:36 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:53:36 (map 'list #'(lambda (x) (char-name x)) #(#\a #\b #\c #\)) 01:53:42 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 01:53:46 Oops. 01:54:07 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@50.10.201.28] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 01:54:08 (lambda (x) (char-name x)) = #'char-name 01:54:42 <_3b> mon_key: ("LATIN_SMALL_LETTER_A" "LATIN_SMALL_LETTER_B" "LATIN_SMALL_LETTER_C" "BLACK_RIGHT-POINTING_POINTER") ? 01:54:47 yes. 01:55:13 simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:55:14 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 01:55:14 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 01:55:20 *_3b* fails to follow the conversation 01:55:29 What are you guys trying to do? 01:55:52 that is not quite this: ((#\a #\b #\c #\BLACK_RIGHT-POINTING_POINTER)) 01:56:10 <_3b> sure it is, a list containing a list with 4 characters 01:56:19 <_3b> one just happens to have a longer name when printed 01:56:27 (char-name #\a) 01:56:43 <_3b> (char= #\latin_small_letter_a #\a) => t 01:56:59 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.66.173.210] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 01:57:18 :) All I'm saying is MAP isn't exactly transparent 01:57:36 mon_key: What are you trying to do? 01:57:40 <_3b> how characters print has nothing to do with map :) 01:58:17 how do you make a literal dotted pair? 01:58:31 Or I guess just (cons 2 3) 01:58:37 <_3b> '(2 . 3)? 01:59:00 <_3b> (cons 2 3) would make a non-literal dotted pair 01:59:02 Why ask a human when there's an open repl laying about? :) 01:59:09 thanks 01:59:16 _3b your right. but what map does with implementation chars is maybe relevant no? 01:59:20 -!- spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-111-135.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: .] 01:59:37 <_3b> (though through some complicated spec lawyering, you could then make that non-literal dotted pair a literal, but we won't go there) 01:59:41 mon_key: map doesn't know what characters are 01:59:56 drdo: sure it does. 01:59:57 <_3b> mon_key: not really, map doesn't care about characters, just sequences 02:00:20 um, because the type for map is a list, it's listing each character individually? 02:00:33 <_3b> and it doesn't care about whether vectors are specialized, or on what types (aside from possibly optimizations), it just iterates over them and passes the values to a function 02:00:40 _3b "can determine the element type specified for the RESULT-TYPE, the element type of the resulting array is the result of upgrading that element type" 02:00:43 mon_key: I haven't understood what problem you have yet 02:01:03 -!- paradoja [~paradoja@acceso-cmp174-132.lpa.idec.net] has left #lisp 02:01:17 <_3b> Saturnation: MAPCAR etc work on lists, MAP is sequences (which includes lists and vectors) 02:01:25 <_3b> mon_key: what are you quoting? 02:01:36 drdo: no problem other than MAP is all powerfull and I can never remember to learn is mysterys 02:01:43 -!- sykopomp [~user@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has quit [Changing host] 02:01:43 sykopomp [~user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 02:01:46 _3b the spec. for map 02:01:47 mon_key: what mysteries? 02:01:55 map is pretty simple and straightforward 02:02:11 _3b, the type is defined as a list in mon_key's example 02:02:18 Saturnation: the type given to MAP is the type you want for the result. 02:02:21 <_3b> mon_key: that is if you do something like (map '(vector single-float) 'foo sequences...) 02:02:25 -!- Soulman1 [~knute@250.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 02:02:35 OK 02:02:49 <_3b> it will create a specialized single-float array if possible, but the types of the input arrays don't matter 02:02:58 *Saturnation* wonders what would happen if the type was 'string instead of 'list... 02:03:08 serichse` [~user@f048007014.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 02:03:14 zmv [~daniel@c934a9f5.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 02:03:23 If the function returns a character they'll be cumulated into a resulting string. 02:03:24 Saturnation: It would work just fine 02:03:25 <_3b> they could still be strings, untyped arrays, lists, etc... as long as they produce values acceptable to function, and function produces something that will fit in the type of the output vector 02:03:38 <_3b> Saturnation: works fine, as long as the function returns characters 02:04:27 drdo: it wouldn't (map 'string #'list "a" "b" "c" "") 02:04:34 of course not 02:04:40 strings can only have characters 02:04:42 <_3b> for example (map 'string 'code-char '( 97 98 99)) => "abc" 02:04:42 not lists 02:04:57 yes, but you said it would :) 02:05:05 If the function returns a character they'll be cumulated into a resulting string. 02:05:22 As long as the function returns a character. 02:05:25 mon_key: Are you this dense or just trolling? 02:05:39 drdo: not at all. 02:05:43 Repeatition is the base of pedagogy... 02:06:01 <_3b> drdo: seemed like a legitimate place to call you on imprecision :) 02:06:19 -!- serichsen [~user@f049128078.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:06:56 _3b: Human speech is full of it, because it is assumed that other humans can infer the meaning through common knowledge and not being stupid 02:07:25 pjb,drdo,_3b: thanks for helping me to learn more about map 02:07:26 <_3b> right, but we are discussing computer languages, and in particular edge cases 02:07:34 <_3b> so it helps to be precise 02:08:05 _3b: I thought it was safe to assume that someone here knows that a string can only hold characters 02:08:10 <_3b> and in particular, to a new user, who presumably lacks a lot of that 'common knowledge' 02:09:00 l4ndfo [~l4ndfo@S0106001cf0520ea3.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:09:05 <_3b> drdo: probably safe a lot of the time, but the is a partocularly pedantic channel :) 02:09:15 <_3b> *this is a particularly 02:09:20 milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 02:12:33 longfin [~longfin@118.37.61.139] has joined #lisp 02:12:44 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 02:13:41 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Client Quit] 02:15:46 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:19:14 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:19:40 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 02:21:15 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:21:42 Yuuhi` [benni@p5483AC26.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:23:56 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483DC57.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:25:00 bad bad emacs, stop resizing yourself 02:25:22 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 02:26:41 cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.119.57] has joined #lisp 02:28:16 -!- pmurias [~pawel@static-78-8-208-43.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 02:30:57 tenawa [~user@adsl-75-53-123-94.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:31:40 bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:31:56 -!- alama [~alama@a79-169-81-87.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: alama] 02:32:06 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:32:15 rookiejet [~mazin@dhcp-0-f-3d-bc-41-3b.cpe.quickclic.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:55 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 02:37:17 I used to take the pedantry here as rudeness but I've learned to take it. 02:37:42 o.O 02:39:11 what's the best function for applying to a list of functions a list of parameters? 02:39:32 the same list of params to every function? 02:39:38 nope 02:39:48 sorry, didn't explain well 02:39:53 (mapcar #'apply functions params) ? 02:40:05 each item in the list of parameters is a param for the one of the functions 02:40:16 -!- rookiejet [~mazin@dhcp-0-f-3d-bc-41-3b.cpe.quickclic.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:40:23 ok, thanks 02:40:33 s/mapcar/mapc/ 02:40:38 force of habit :-P 02:40:42 (mapcar #'funcall functions params) 02:40:43 mapcar can take more than 3 args? 02:40:45 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-83-182.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:40:47 depending on what you want to do with the return values 02:40:56 yes, give it however many lists you want 02:40:56 side effects, so mapc :) 02:40:57 Saturnation: It takes any number of lists 02:41:04 it takes one item from each list on each pass 02:41:09 ah, nice 02:41:10 thanks 02:41:30 so (mapcar #'fun l1 l2 l3), fun must take 3 params 02:41:44 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-83-182.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 02:43:12 damn, forgot there is one constant arg to every invocation :( 02:43:29 should just wrap it up in a lambda then...? 02:43:47 (mapc (lambda (fun param) (funcall fun constant param)) funs params) 02:44:02 yeah, that's about what I was thinking 02:44:22 or use a dynamic binding 02:46:20 ouch, brain hurts 02:46:43 cesarbp: I didn't mean it in a bad way 02:48:27 OK, better now 02:48:50 -!- redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:49:05 Thanks, I'm loving working with Lisp when higher order functions just fold up and collapse code... 02:49:15 Phoodus: if you switch constant and param: (mapc (rcurry #'funcall constant) funs params) 02:50:23 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.119.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:52:20 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 02:52:21 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-83-182.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:53:33 sykopomp: yeah, but taht's not standard 02:53:50 it's in alexandria. It may as well be, as far as I'm concerned! 02:54:23 we actually grew our own big utils library before ever hearing of alexandria, so I don't use it :-P 02:54:38 pity! 02:55:15 I don't think it has much that we don't have already 02:55:26 does it have curry/rcurry/compose? ;D 02:56:14 well, it doesn't have much that we don't already _use_ ;) 02:58:12 night 02:58:56 cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.119.57] has joined #lisp 02:59:42 -!- Saturnation [~dsouth@pool-64-222-86-14.burl.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 03:00:46 -!- longfin [~longfin@118.37.61.139] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:03:09 _reid [~reid@pool-108-10-24-103.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:13 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:06:52 -!- xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:11:29 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:12:27 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 03:12:43 m4dnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 03:14:56 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:14:56 -!- m4dnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:15:28 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 03:19:49 jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 03:20:09 -!- jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:20:27 jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 03:25:20 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 03:25:35 longfin [~longfin@118.37.61.139] has joined #lisp 03:26:25 lifeng [~lifeng@bb116-14-191-157.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 03:27:14 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp2364.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:30:35 -!- serichse` [~user@f048007014.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:32:24 -!- jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:34:18 gary-s [~gary@186.42.102.50] has joined #lisp 03:35:54 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:37:50 -!- jwdunne [~jwdunne@cpc1-ward9-2-0-cust148.10-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:38:41 -!- longfin [~longfin@118.37.61.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:39:54 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.66.112] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 03:40:34 jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 03:42:56 :D 03:45:22 longfin [~longfin@118.37.61.139] has joined #lisp 03:45:31 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@204.14.152.118] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 03:46:23 -!- longfin [~longfin@118.37.61.139] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:55:28 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:55:52 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:04:31 poindont` [~user@cloudbovina.bovinasancta.com] has joined #lisp 04:05:17 -!- poindontcare [~user@cloudbovina.bovinasancta.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:05:53 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A5CB0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:07:20 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-168-244.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:09:03 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 04:09:31 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-177-201.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:09:31 -!- pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:ddfc] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:10:09 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 04:13:01 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:21:57 hey #lisp, me and sykopomp need some third party opinions 04:22:14 Ralith: speak for yourself. 04:22:18 please. 04:22:29 is (progn (when foo (define bar foo)) (frob bar)) a reasonable thing? 04:22:34 sykopomp: I said need, not want. :P 04:23:28 What's define? 04:23:57 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 04:24:31 creates a new lexical binding 04:25:45 pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:ddfc] has joined #lisp 04:25:48 ahmm, is that common lisp? 04:25:54 that makes no sense 04:25:54 no. 04:26:11 ...that was to drdo. 04:26:15 lol 04:26:16 Ralith: not in CL, not with CL:PROGN. 04:26:27 not in CL, no 04:26:39 presume that CL did supply such a define form though 04:26:40 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-128-236.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:26:43 So we're supposed to guess the semantics? 04:27:02 I'm asking whether semantics that permit such a use seem reasonable. 04:27:19 er, sorry 04:27:21 (when foo (let ((bar foo)) (frob bar))) 04:27:28 introduces a new lexical binding into the current lexical environment 04:27:29 Ralith: please learn how to write correct lisp! 04:27:50 not only it's reasonable, but it's trivial, with the right syntax. 04:27:53 if define creates a lexical binding of BAR, then as far as we know, it's unrelated to the BAR in the FROB form 04:28:05 pjb: the different syntax is the point. 04:28:20 Then it's not CL:PROGN. 04:28:30 Scheme has something like that, but I find it horrid. 04:28:32 adeht: If it creates a binding in the current environment, it is the same bar 04:28:59 drdo: do you know what lexical scope means? 04:29:03 when foo of course 04:30:04 You could define a macro named BEGIN, like in Scheme, that would accept these DEFINE forms, and build the corresponding LET. 04:30:51 that would be something akin to "block scope", not lexical scope 04:30:56 -!- davertron [~david@c-24-218-166-166.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:31:21 you can open a new let at the position of each define, so that it's lexical. 04:31:36 but that wouldn't allow bar to be referenced in that case 04:31:37 Well, lexical scope doesn't impose a syntax. 04:32:37 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 04:32:48 -!- gary-s [~gary@186.42.102.50] has quit [Quit: gary-s] 04:34:49 pjb: mainly what I'm interested in perspectives on here is the referencing of 'bar' ina lesting level outside of the point at which it's bound 04:34:54 nesting level* 04:35:09 Ralith: the point is that you cannot do that. 04:35:16 That's the whole point of sexps and macros. 04:35:31 But you can always define the mechanism in an outer operator. 04:35:39 right 04:35:41 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Client Quit] 04:36:00 So instead of using cl:progn, use begin, which you define in such a way so it parses the forms of its body, extract the define subforms, and generate the code you want. 04:36:02 and what would you think of a mechanism that enabled that? 04:36:22 it's a stylistic question, not a feasibility one 04:36:23 -!- tr3x [~tr3x@93-139-97-119.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:36:34 If you want to deal with define inside subforms of BEGIN, then you will need a code walker too. 04:37:01 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 04:37:04 But I don't think scheme allows that. Only direct subforms, and even only at the beginning of the begin body. 04:37:06 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-98-78.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:10 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-98-78.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 04:37:15 As I said I find it horrid. 04:37:18 <_3b> Ralith: sounds confusing 04:37:23 Don't do that, LET is perfectly good. 04:37:41 <_3b> Ralith: what if you add a new progn inside it, does it suddenly rearrange scopes? 04:37:51 <_3b> what about implicit progns? 04:37:57 I think it's an atrocity, a repetition of mistakes from Algol-based language 04:38:01 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-98-78.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:38:05 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-98-78.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 04:38:12 *languages 04:38:13 Indeed, (when (define ...) ...) can only expand till the end of the when. 04:38:28 in Algol-based languages, you can't normally reference variables from outside of the {} nesting level in which they're 04:38:28 Scheme contains also its share of sillines. 04:38:31 defined 04:38:47 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-98-78.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:39:10 <_3b> does JS count as algol-based? 04:39:20 er 04:39:22 I speak too generally 04:39:27 <_3b> function scope is pretty evil too though 04:39:28 in most C-like languages, I know that's the case 04:39:36 Ralith: I was thinking of Python 04:40:03 adeht: yeah, I was recently informed, to my disappointment, that python behave that way. 04:40:16 behaves* 04:40:36 my intuition says that lexical scope should always correspond to nesting levels 04:40:59 tr3x [~tr3x@93-136-82-54.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 04:41:15 such that my example above would refer to a different bar, or have an undefined reference 04:41:49 I'm interested in seeing if my intuition is correct, or if there are common cases where that's actually desirable. 04:42:40 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 04:43:09 bhyde 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has joined #lisp 10:31:37 -!- xvilka [~xvilka@ip-79-111-184-254.bb.netbynet.ru] has left #lisp 10:31:47 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-98-78.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 10:32:46 -!- emporas_ [~emporas@athedsl-167396.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:33:07 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:33:32 basho__ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-153-208.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:34:45 rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 10:35:20 -!- jsoftw [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:36:35 gabnet [~gabnet@86.67.23.234] has joined #lisp 10:37:14 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:40:29 emporas_ [~emporas@athedsl-174002.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 10:43:02 -!- mahmul [~mrw@user-0can1en.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: q] 10:44:49 jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 10:45:09 Ragnaroek [~Adium@p5B0C70A5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:49:08 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:53:07 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:53:40 -!- Davsebamse [~davse@0x573457e0.hinxx3.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:54:44 rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 10:56:00 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 10:59:01 -!- gabnet [~gabnet@86.67.23.234] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 10:59:39 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:59:59 hi stassats 11:00:21 Saturnation: hi 11:00:25 what's up? 11:01:02 looking into LispWorks deliver 11:01:05 and yourself? 11:01:29 hunting bugs in SBCL 11:03:16 *stassats* put it on somebody else's shoulders by reporting it 11:04:03 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 11:05:31 tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 11:05:41 Bronsa [~brace@host50-182-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:06:43 p_l|backup [~plasek@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 11:10:23 morning Xach 11:15:08 Soulman1 [~knute@250.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 11:15:18 Hello 11:22:45 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp2364.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 11:25:56 -!- fisted_ is now known as fisted 11:26:26 paradoja [~paradoja@acceso-cmp174-132.lpa.idec.net] has joined #lisp 11:28:16 pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 11:28:30 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 11:30:05 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75ff81.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:30:12 hi 11:32:06 killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 11:33:30 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.77.37.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:35:28 OODavo_ [~david@ppp121-45-187-135.lns20.syd7.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:38:12 -!- OODavo [~david@ppp121-45-161-205.lns20.syd6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:38:24 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:42:20 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 11:50:19 Hmmm. 11:50:33 *jsoft* is reading up on clojure 11:51:12 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 11:58:41 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:00:18 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:01:49 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-128-236.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:02:33 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@adsl-32-14-244.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 12:02:34 Atomsk [~ace4016@adsl-32-14-244.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 12:02:55 -!- longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:03:21 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:10 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 12:04:51 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 12:04:51 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 12:04:51 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 12:05:40 bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:06:06 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:09:11 fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-167-160.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 12:09:30 -!- OODavo_ is now known as OODavo 12:10:38 .. 12:11:01 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 12:13:43 *Saturnation* pokes LispWorks deliver harder to see if it works better 12:13:52 and by better, I mean work at all :( 12:14:58 damn cli doesn't spew ANY errors that I can see 12:16:36 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:20:38 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:21:51 Don't be afraid of lisp-hug. So friendly! 12:24:16 yeah, will turn there next. Just in the process of eliminating variables for this first 12:25:15 leo2007 [~leo@222.77.37.79] has joined #lisp 12:27:11 OK, so my build file works, just doesn't like my application code 12:29:18 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 12:29:18 ape2 [~NICK@81.29.190.160] has joined #lisp 12:29:45 Xach, at least writing the GUI is trivial now thanks to CAPI 12:29:47 Man I can have incredible bouts of reading about lisp and its variants. 12:30:09 It seems interesting just reading online discussions about it 12:30:59 -!- ape2 [~NICK@81.29.190.160] has left #lisp 12:36:51 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:40:27 benny [~benny@i577A3077.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:41:00 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:40 alama [~alama@a79-169-81-87.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 12:41:59 how can I comment out more than one line of code without commenting out each line with ;? 12:42:22 #| stuff |# 12:42:34 thanks 12:43:12 you might also find #+nil , etc useful. 12:43:18 people do all sorts of things. If you have a couple of forms in a block, you can comment them by preceding them with a quote (some consider that a sin) 12:43:49 right, and then there is #+nil 12:47:43 *Saturnation* gets liftoff! :) 12:47:58 -!- naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 12:48:18 M-; in Emacs comments the current region 12:48:32 naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has joined #lisp 12:48:43 So used to scripting had a invocation of my entry point in the file so that evaluating the buffer ran the application for testing. Apparently, delivery didn't like that :) 12:50:04 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 12:52:43 No, not #+nil, #+(or). 12:55:53 koning_robot [~user@50-208.ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #lisp 12:58:18 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:59:05 AND it didn't like that my build script wasn't in the right package 12:59:17 *Saturnation* feels like he's fighting the system again 12:59:33 which probably means I'm filling in some major gaps in my understanding 13:01:08 Saturnation: do you use asdf? Or a handcrafted build script? 13:01:31 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:01:46 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:01:46 build script for LispWorks delivery, so I guess hand crafted? :) 13:02:19 ok I don't know anything about "LW delivery". 13:02:35 It's not too complicated just yet 13:10:03 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:13:09 gabnet [~gabnet@86.67.23.234] has joined #lisp 13:15:15 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 13:19:58 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:20:26 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@46.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:22:01 jokoon [~zonax@feu30-1-82-242-58-229.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:22:31 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:23:42 -!- Beetny 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[~zonax@feu30-1-82-242-58-229.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:30:38 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-128-236.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:35 -!- davertron [~david@c-24-218-166-166.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:33:07 I have a simple Hunchentoot web application with many forms. How can server know who entered a form ? I can have a simple sign-in/log-in forms and then what ? 17:34:12 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:34:27 Store that information in the session. 17:34:30 then you reflect this fact into a session variable 17:34:53 ok 17:35:00 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483AC26.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:35:00 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p5483AC26.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:39:52 kushal [~kdas@114.143.161.73] has joined #lisp 17:39:52 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.161.73] has quit [Changing host] 17:39:52 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 17:40:02 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:40:21 -!- pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:40:33 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 17:40:34 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Changing host] 17:40:34 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 17:40:38 -!- prljavi_hari [~h@dh207-38-192.xnet.hr] has left #lisp 17:40:49 Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:33 <[df]> is there a better way to get a list of the keys in a hash table than using maphash or loop? 17:41:44 <[df]> I do want to iterate over the keys, but only after I've sorted them first 17:41:51 [df]: there might be something in alexandria. 17:42:00 trebor_home [~email@dslb-088-069-146-072.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:42:11 If that's a common operation, a sorted set could be more appropriate. 17:42:11 [df]: just call (get-keys h). 17:42:20 [df]: then if get-keys is not defined, define it. 17:42:37 pjb: hash-table-keys looks better to me. 17:42:38 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.71.165] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:42:52 pjb: ha. Love that classic #lisp snark. :) 17:43:11 ... You could do something involving W-H-T-I, but that's still not quite what you're looking for. 17:43:29 <[df]> well it was just a one-off, so I used (loop for k being the hash-keys of h collect k) 17:43:35 <[df]> looks pretty ugly though 17:43:44 mattrepl [~mattrepl@c-69-181-1-27.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:50 Amazingly enough, there's alexandia:hash-table-keys. 17:43:59 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:44:55 <[df]> pkhuong: thanks 17:45:34 but, again, you might also just be doing it wrong. 17:48:34 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.207.165] has joined #lisp 17:48:40 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:48:40 -!- myu2 [~myu2@x108121.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:50:33 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:39 davertron [~david@c-24-218-166-166.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:55:15 -!- dmytrish [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:56:37 is let* macro generating nested let forms? 17:56:56 one per variable 17:57:09 tr3x: not defined. 17:58:11 LET*, in fact, is specified to be a special form, not a macro. 17:58:40 is that how it is usually implemented though? 17:58:51 nyef I thought I've read it was a macro 17:59:03 clhs let* 17:59:03 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_let_l.htm 17:59:22 It's trivial to implement as a macro by rewriting into nested LETs, and may actually be implemented that way in some systems. 18:00:01 In SBCL, however, it's a straight-up special form. 18:01:12 pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 18:01:14 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 18:03:06 -!- oconnore [~eric@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:04:02 -!- gabnet [~gabnet@86.67.23.234] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 18:04:42 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2470A.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:05:02 If you want to get declarations right, it's not exactly straightforward 18:05:17 Straightforward is expanding LET* into LAMBDA + &AUX :-) 18:05:36 mascotte [~mascotte_@AClermont-Ferrand-651-1-110-28.w86-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:06:01 Yeah, right up until it gets LET-converted back. 18:06:43 Odaym [~unix@212.36.209.4] has joined #lisp 18:07:00 -!- mascotte [~mascotte_@AClermont-Ferrand-651-1-110-28.w86-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 18:09:34 -!- rootzlevel [~hpd@188-195-186-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:11:17 -!- drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:13:32 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 18:13:50 -!- Ragnaroek1 [~Adium@p5B0C70A5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:15:13 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@j109182.upc-j.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 18:15:24 mgampkay [~mgampkay@183.3.173.145] has joined #lisp 18:16:33 Saturnation [~dsouth@71.169.187.156] has joined #lisp 18:17:56 A quick question: isn't defunctionalisation the way closures are implemented nowadays? 18:18:07 Reynolds defunctionalisation, that is. 18:18:08 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-53-100.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo] 18:19:21 usually. 18:20:50 It's slightly different in graph-reductionish implementations. One can also use runtime compilation, like GCC. 18:22:19 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:23:25 Shouldn't, also there be some kind of fallbacks for dynamic languages, where one cannot infer all call sites? 18:23:28 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-209-70.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:24:33 deepfire: uh? Even for static languages, one can't usually infer all call sites. 18:24:51 drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 18:24:59 pkhuong, the point was, in dynamic languages it gets much more acute 18:25:02 That's why you get records of a reference to the toplevel function and a sequence of arguments. 18:25:03 AIUI, anyway. 18:25:29 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-98-78.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:44 francogrex [~user@109.130.115.37] has joined #lisp 18:28:28 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-139-200.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 18:28:56 Jubb [~ghost@c-98-204-160-127.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:31 is there a function to flatten a list? I.e. to go from '((1 2) (3 4)) to (1 2 3 4)? 18:30:53 alexandria:flatten 18:31:04 -!- drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:31:05 Saturnation: it's in almost all the books that teach beginners about lisp 18:32:36 yeah, I thought so but didn't see it in the index for PCL 18:32:55 tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.99.20] has joined #lisp 18:32:58 nope, not in the index 18:35:09 Saturnation: why would it be there? 18:36:07 phrixos [~Phrixos@gnu/webmaster/phrixos] has joined #lisp 18:36:55 because it is a book about Lisp 18:37:01 not in Ansi Common Lisp either 18:37:14 francogrex pasted "flatten" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120484 18:37:30 (lambda (list) (let ((result '())) (labels ((walk (object) (if (atom object) (push object result) (progn (walk (car object)) (walk (cdr object)))))) (walk list) (nreverse result)))) is the name of that function. 18:37:31 here you are 18:38:07 ah, confused, that it was part of the standard for some reason 18:38:09 in Allegro, i can just write a regular program like i would in C++ for example and just compile it and have it run? 18:38:11 thanks 18:39:07 Saturnation: all the functions are part of the standard. You only need to find their NAME. 18:39:15 Saturnation: and lambda expressions are function NAMES. 18:39:38 (some functions have also symbols as function names, but this is irrelevant). 18:40:45 yeah, can see that 18:41:01 -!- mgampkay [~mgampkay@183.3.173.145] has left #lisp 18:41:07 Odaym: (load (compile-file "program.lisp")) 18:41:09 Also realized that the list is only one level deep, so can (reduce #'append list) to get a flat list as well 18:41:20 that goes in REPL, pjb? 18:41:32 Odaym: is equivalent to: g++ -o pgm pgm.c++ && ./pgm 18:41:35 Odaym: yes. 18:41:42 Odaym: the REPL is your shell. 18:41:51 and what about placing the cursor just above the beginning of the code and pressing the numeric Enter? 18:41:58 is that equivalent to the above? 18:42:07 That could do too. 18:43:48 Odaym: notice that for this to work, your file program.lisp should contain at least a function call, not just definitions. 18:44:02 yes 18:44:15 Odaym: for this reason it might be better to just load the program, without embedded function calls, and do the function call at the REPL: 18:44:23 else if i had only (defun), it would print me the functions' names? 18:44:23 (load (compile-file "program.lisp")) (program) 18:45:00 LOAD doesn't print anything normally, unless there are toplevel calls to PRINT in it, or you set *LOAD-VERBOSE* to true. 18:45:14 LOAD takes also a :verbose and a :print parameter. 18:45:30 There's *load-print* too. 18:45:33 drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 18:45:47 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:46:08 or (compile-file "program.lisp" :load t) 18:46:20 -!- zmv [~daniel@c934a9f5.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:46:22 Plenty of options. 18:46:43 above is not standard only supported by some implementations 18:47:30 ccorn [~ccorn@j109182.upc-j.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 18:49:08 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.115.37] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:49:14 -!- daniel_ [~daniel@p5B327156.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:50:35 -!- trebor_home [~email@dslb-088-069-146-072.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:51:59 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@j109182.upc-j.chello.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 18:52:35 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.99.20] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:52:41 -!- davertron [~david@c-24-218-166-166.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:55:19 ccorn [~ccorn@j109182.upc-j.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 18:56:55 Ragnaroek1 [~Adium@p5B0C70A5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:34 francogrex [~user@109.130.115.37] has joined #lisp 19:01:12 euangelion [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:01:13 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:02:21 in sbcl step, debug level is 3, local var are inspected with L, Return to hmm return the values resulting from evaluation of expression, but how to use it? if expr is (* I FACT) typing RETURN (* I FACT) is not doing it ? 19:04:07 Saturnation: (mapcan #'copy-seq list) also works nicely, instead of (reduce #'append list). The latter is also exponential complexity... You're copying the whole list accumulated thus far repeatedly. 19:04:26 Hexstream: exponential? 19:04:42 Uh, well, the other thing. 19:05:01 reduce/append also depends on :from-end. 19:05:02 Polynomial? Either way, it's not good ;P 19:05:33 Hexstream: very few non-trivial operations are subpolynomial. 19:05:35 Saturnation: you realize that (reduce #'append list) is not a proper flatten; use and learn what pjb has posted or what I added to lisppaste 19:05:50 ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 19:05:50 pkhuong: But this is a trivial operation. 19:06:35 Hexstream: copy-seq doesn't accept improper lists. 19:06:36 -!- GeneralMaximus [~general@122.163.238.87] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 19:06:49 indexing in an array is trivial; multiplication arguably isn't. 19:06:54 GeneralMaximus [~general@122.163.238.87] has joined #lisp 19:06:56 (on the other hand, by solution wouldn't work on circular lists either). 19:07:09 pjb: I don't think he's dealing with an improper list if he didn't mention that explicitly. 19:07:27 pjb: While we're at it, I really hate your implementation of flatten ;P 19:08:08 Well, the use of labels is just to wrap it inside a lambda. Otherwise, you can't do better. 19:08:37 daniel_ [~daniel@p5B327156.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:38 francogrex's version would be better, as in more idiomatic... no? 19:08:53 Just like #'function is more idiomatic than (function function), ha! 19:09:33 Hexstream: idiomatic code is just code written by idiots. 19:09:35 -!- GeneralMaximus [~general@122.163.238.87] has quit [Client Quit] 19:10:13 francogrex, functionally sufficient for what I required (though probably not optimal) 19:10:31 Hexstream: do you like (defun flatten (list) (loop for car in list if (listp car) nconc (flatten car) else collect car)) better? 19:10:35 thanks Hexstream 19:10:38 pjb: The misguidedness of that statement stands on its own. 19:11:03 Hexstream: more precisely, idiomatic programming is the work of packers. 19:11:40 pjb: You're achieving new peaks of nonsense. 19:12:05 Hexstream: you're achieving new peaks of non-understanding. 19:12:30 pjb: This discussion is sterile. 19:12:37 Agreed. 19:12:42 *stassats* is surprised that pjb's code wasn't in ALL-CAPS 19:12:54 :-) 19:13:12 *Saturnation* suggests pjb look up the meaning of idiomatic 19:13:30 Taggnostr2 [~x@dyn57-215.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 19:13:32 Saturnation: I know it; can't I play with the words? 19:13:41 stassats: pjb's way is much nicer, even though it won't win any golfing contest, imo. 19:14:04 *Saturnation* jumped into the conversation mid stream and immediately jumps back out 19:14:58 stassats: (labels ((flatten (thing) (if (listp thing) (mapcan #'flatten thing) (list thing)))) (flatten list)) 19:15:34 Hexstream: mapcan is as bad as append, in time. 19:15:38 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-243.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:16:14 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:16:16 and there should be CONSP in my code 19:16:19 not listp 19:16:24 pjb: I'm not usually counting cycles. 19:16:53 Got some things to take care of, be back in ~30 mins. 19:19:26 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@c-69-181-1-27.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 19:19:26 -!- alama [~alama@a79-169-81-87.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:19:50 alama [~alama@a79-169-81-87.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 19:20:42 -!- drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:21:49 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: --- You have been invited to #reallife] 19:22:28 l4ndfo [~l4ndfo@S0106001cf0520ea3.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:51 mattrepl [~mattrepl@c-69-181-1-27.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:24:10 oconnore [~eric@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:17 i have written an entire program on the Allegro editor, and saved it in X place 19:25:21 how do i compile and run? 19:25:40 use the "play" button 19:25:48 when i go to the begging of the code, just above it and press numeric Enter, i get *db* on the REPL, to say that it now sees DB 19:26:06 i did, it says i need a form to run it from 19:26:10 and i said New | Form .. 19:26:14 but i dont know what to do there 19:26:27 *cmm* likes "the begging of the code" 19:26:51 shut up cmm 19:26:53 <_3b> is that like 'begging the question'? 19:27:36 <_3b> Odaym: are you sure you aren't supposed to do that /after/ some code? 19:27:50 -!- dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-101-147.xnet.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:27:59 the code is there, i just want to run it and see it asking me to add cd's, in a loop 19:28:03 it's the first program in PCL 19:28:06 HG` [~HG@dslb-188-109-148-008.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:18 LiamH [~healy@pool-68-239-79-144.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:20 dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-101-147.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 19:28:31 Odaym: And what's the problem? 19:28:40 <_3b> normally when programming lisp, you compile individual forms as you edit them, and test them as you go, so you would have the entire program loaded, and just need to do (run-program) at the repl or something 19:28:52 ah 19:28:58 but i have no idea what a form is 19:29:03 can't i run it without a form? 19:29:09 Oo 19:29:17 <_3b> 'form' = a piece of lisp code 19:29:21 i dont want a shape for it 19:29:24 <_3b> either an atom or a list containing valid code 19:29:29 just want it to run from the REPL 19:29:41 Odaym: Then type what you want to run into the repl 19:29:44 _3b: in allegro's (windows based) editor, a form is a window-design 19:29:56 so, we don't know which one he's referring to. 19:30:08 i'm using Allegro CL on linux 19:30:13 <_3b> ah, i'm guessing he is confusing them 19:30:14 opens with the REPL and an editor 19:30:33 Odaym: You can type expression in the repl, right? 19:30:36 Odaym: might be the same, I only know the windows one. 19:30:36 *expressions 19:30:36 yea sure 19:30:42 Odaym: Then type there what you want to run 19:30:46 <_3b> ehu: if you know the editor, is 'numeric enter' bound to something like eval-last-sexp? 19:30:58 yes. 19:31:16 (if that means eval sexp to the left of the cursor) 19:31:21 when i press numeric enter, it only evaluates the very first defun 19:31:41 <_3b> ok, so probably it complained that there was no sexp to eval in terms of (lisp) forms, and he tried to create a (window-design) form from the menu, which did nothing useful 19:31:46 interesting, yesterday I spent the day adding lines of code and today I'm collapsing and removing lines of code without changing functionality 19:32:16 -!- oconnore [~eric@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:32:32 Saturnation: Yep, that happens when you realise you could do it in some better way, people usually call that refactoring 19:32:34 That is often the pattern, yes. 19:33:16 it's just Ctrl + E on every defun 19:33:24 *Odaym* slaps cmm 19:33:54 -!- aidalgol [aidan@2002:453d:f72::1337:3] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:33:56 very good very well 19:34:04 now we're learning 19:34:10 drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 19:34:23 Odaym: there should be some command to eval the whole buffer 19:35:02 aidalgol [aidan@2002:453d:f72::1337:3] has joined #lisp 19:35:13 Full Compile should at least help to compile all forms 19:35:23 I'm not sure about evaluate. 19:35:32 I have no idea about allegro 19:35:42 I only use slime 19:35:44 Is there not a manual for this thing somewhere? 19:35:45 oh. 19:35:47 hehe. 19:35:50 ctrl + d compiles and ctrl + e evals 19:35:51 I ahve it here. 19:35:53 but dont know for the full two 19:36:30 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.187.99] has joined #lisp 19:36:31 Binding C-d and C-e to such things leaves me wondering how the hell do you move around in allegro? 19:36:33 all i'm interested in, in every project, are the .cl files? 19:37:15 <_3b> .asd files are usually pretty interesting too 19:37:28 Odaym: wel,l 19:37:30 well, 19:37:37 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@c-69-181-1-27.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 19:37:42 Odaym: .fasl usually means a compiled file 19:37:52 if you create graphical windows, you're interested in the .bil files too. 19:38:04 *Saturnation* feels like he's a beginner all over again. 19:38:08 and the .lpr files are project files 19:38:14 Allegro is really not very friendly, and this is my second day using CL 19:38:30 Odaym: emacs is the way 19:38:31 they serve to keep your files ordered. 19:38:32 yes I know refactoring (for those of you who missed my "I want better refactoring tools for my Lisp IDE" yesterday...) 19:38:43 mattrepl [~mattrepl@c-69-181-1-27.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:44 emacs needs a sit down to be able to maneuver in it comfortably though.. 19:38:44 Odaym: hehe. so, how did Delphi feel on your first day? 19:39:13 i dont know delphi :o 19:39:16 didnt get the pun 19:39:21 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:39:33 <_3b> arrow-keys and mouse work fine in emacs :p 19:39:42 It's an IDE which helps mostly with graphics design 19:39:57 not a language? 19:40:05 i always hear it in the sense that it's a language 19:40:06 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-53-100.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:40:15 Delhpi is an IDE to write Pascal stuff 19:40:19 aah 19:40:21 *_3b* love backtraces full of functions like ( ), ( ), ( ) :/ 19:40:22 very extensive 19:40:29 oconnore [~eric@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:40:43 but very hard to grasp in 2 days 19:41:02 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-176-211-39.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:41:15 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.187.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:41:37 of course yea 19:41:47 i am learning CL for my AI course 19:41:54 dont want to do it in java or python 19:42:12 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-176-211-39.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:12 too cliche 19:42:47 (defvar *db* nil) what's nil? 19:42:55 <_3b> clhs nil 19:42:55 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_nil.htm 19:42:58 vars have return types? 19:43:00 splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 19:43:36 <_3b> NIL is a symbol naming the empty list, which is also the 'false' value in CL 19:43:38 vars can have types, yes. but that's not what NIL is. 19:44:00 <_3b> in (defvar *db* nil), it is the initial value of the variable *db* (if it doesn't already exist) 19:44:20 ah so initialization 19:44:24 Odaym: that's great. Have you read PAIP? 19:44:32 no, still in PCL 19:45:18 Odaym: right. you can put any expression there. 19:45:32 -!- oconnore [~eric@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:45:37 meaning, you can use a function return value to initialize the variable. 19:45:54 the mention of the word PAIP brings tears to my eyes 19:46:04 that's what i thought, let me try something 19:46:04 <_3b> note that DEFVAR only initializes when it creates a variable, so evaluating it again won't change the value 19:46:09 Odaym: also, have a look at http://www.numenta.com/ 19:46:18 haha 19:46:21 ok was gonna try that 19:46:28 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@c-69-181-1-27.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 19:46:29 yea it makes sense 19:46:37 <_3b> as opposed to DEFPARAMETER, which assigns the value every time it is evaluated 19:47:09 enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-76-171-245-75.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:47:10 So, strangely enough, you'd better declare your program parameters with defvar and your program variables with defparameter. 19:47:22 So that you can set your program parameters before loading your program. 19:47:33 And have your program variables reset when you reload your program. 19:47:51 The only exception, being your program "databases", which need defvar instead of defparameter. 19:48:33 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.115.37] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:48:47 So, I'd say that a change of perspective, while worth 80 IQ points, is also worth a lot of lexical confusion. 19:50:08 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.187.99] has joined #lisp 19:50:42 Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.71.239] has joined #lisp 19:50:47 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 19:50:58 pnq [~nick@AC81F41B.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 19:51:28 -!- phantasus [~fantazo@178-190-236-40.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:52:46 -!- drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:53:55 i think that to get everything compiled (load (compile-file "Main.cl")) works, and then you just call the "main" function 19:54:00 in this case, (add-cds) 19:54:08 it worked on clisp on my terminal 19:54:11 and on Allegro as well 19:54:15 win 19:54:35 -!- naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:54:36 Right. Notice that apart from Allegro, everybody calls his lisp sources *.lisp 19:55:16 so now i dont really need allegro 19:55:23 except if i really need indentation 19:55:42 Gedit knows lisp 19:55:50 paredit in emacs indents automatically and nicely lisp code. 19:57:20 *_3b* thought emacs did the indentation, paredit just dealt with paren balance 19:57:28 if i have this in my program, (defun hello () (format t "Hello world")) 19:57:29 (+ 3 (* 4 5 19:57:29 3)) 19:57:34 let's just say 19:57:44 i can't get the value for the expression below the function, right? 19:57:49 it needs to be in a function 19:58:04 <_3b> not sure what you mean 19:58:13 the above is just the two lines in the program 19:58:16 <_3b> you can evaluate that form outside a function 19:58:25 the hello function, and (+ 3 (* 4 5)) 19:58:39 if I compile it, i can only call hello 19:58:43 of course.. 19:59:32 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.187.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:59:41 <_3b> if i understand correctly, that form gets evaluated when you load the file 19:59:59 <_3b> try putting a (print ) around it, and loading the file, then look in the repl 20:01:06 <_3b> or there is probably some key in the IDE to evaluate the form from the source file (like the 'numeric enter' discussed earlier, or C-x C-e and M-C-x in slime) 20:02:06 dmytrish [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:44 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:05:04 sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:06 drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 20:06:49 <_3b> have source locations gotten less useful in slime/sbcl lately? 20:07:35 trivial-garbage defines weak hash tables with a weakness of 'key-or-value'. What's that supposed to mean? 'discard if key or value turns out to be discardable'? then is 'key-and-value' meant to be discarded when both the key and the value are discardable, but not if only one of them? 20:07:42 <_3b> v in slime debugger in particular 20:08:53 naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has joined #lisp 20:10:09 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 20:10:22 _3b: not for me. They even work for forms entered at the REPL now! 20:10:37 tenawa [~user@adsl-75-53-123-94.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:44 ehu: it's the reverse. 20:11:31 <_3b> hmm, maybe my image is just broken this time 20:11:43 it's the weakness that's both on key and value. 20:12:38 ah! starting to get it. 20:13:30 So if either the key or the value would be dead, the entry is weak on both and is nulled out. For key-or-value, the entry is weak on either, so is kept if either is live. 20:14:12 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:35 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:15:00 paging Captain De Morgan 20:15:06 -!- drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:15:21 tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:15:37 Odaym: indeed, any toplevel expression that has no side effect in a source file is useless. 20:15:59 Odaym: you could try: (/ 1 0) ; side effect is signaling a DIVIDE-BY-ZERO error when loading the file. 20:16:09 Odaym: or you could try: (print (* 3 2)) ; side effect is printing the result. 20:16:25 <_3b> pkhuong: if you load an asdf system with a missing dependency, does the backtrace look reasonable? 20:16:28 Odaym: or even: (defvar *something* (* 2 3)); side effect is defining a variable. 20:16:30 shaunren [~shaun@bas2-cooksville17-1279557136.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 20:16:52 _3b: I'd have to build one, and that's too much effort for now. 20:17:03 <_3b> pkhuong: ok 20:17:31 <_3b> seems to be slime specific at least 20:18:24 <_3b> pkhuong: any idea how old your slime is? 20:18:38 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:19:21 2010-09-22. 20:20:17 <_3b> ok, so probably not something that changed in sbcl without a matching change in slime, since my slime is newer 20:21:23 I'm on 1.0.37, though. 20:21:57 <_3b> ah, ok 20:22:13 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75ff81.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:26 hi 20:22:46 _3b: do you refer to backtrace being almost blank? 20:22:57 with only parenthesis 20:23:14 <_3b> stassats: yeah, and 'can't find source locat5ion' on a bunch of frames, etc 20:23:31 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.148.246] has joined #lisp 20:23:33 i've seen this many times 20:23:58 <_3b> and oddly, error changes a bit second time hitting v on a frame 20:24:22 normally, that can be helped by yanking up debugging settings. 20:24:38 yeah, can reproduce it 20:25:00 pkhuong: would the consequence be that in one of the cases the key/value gets GC-ed while the other doesn't? 20:25:27 *stassats* can't imagine what can cause this 20:25:52 <_3b> prxq: don't think that is the issue, since inspecting the functions seems to show correct source locations 20:26:17 _3b: did you paste something? I just arrived... 20:26:19 pkhuong: or should I carefully read the clisp definitions in order to understand the subject? 20:26:45 <_3b> prxq: load an asdf system with a missing dependency in recent slime/sbcl 20:27:07 *prxq* dates up 20:27:16 i'm sure i've seen it last year too 20:27:24 <_3b> backtrace is horribly garbled, missing names on some functions, misssing source on some, both missing on some, etc 20:27:41 ehu: that would be the intent. 20:27:45 -!- shaunren [~shaun@bas2-cooksville17-1279557136.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: Bye] 20:27:50 _3b: what platform are you on? 20:27:51 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:28:05 <_3b> yeah, seems like it has been happening for a while, no idea how long though 20:28:06 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:28:18 <_3b> just hadn't noticed such an easily repeatable test case 20:28:23 <_3b> prxq: x8664 linux 20:28:55 _3b: ubuntu? 20:28:58 <_3b> yeah 20:29:22 *_3b* notes that the backtrace is fine in sbcl run directly though 20:29:24 drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 20:29:49 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-98-78.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:30:35 _3b: smoking gun, right? 20:30:38 _3b: and what error message do you get? 20:30:48 <_3b> stassats: in which case? 20:31:04 when loading a system with unsatisfied dependencies 20:31:23 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:31:31 hmm. using Java primitives, I think I can do trivial-garbage's :key, :value and :key-and-value weak hash table support, but can I do :key-or-value? 20:32:25 <_3b> stassats: sec, will paste... 20:34:24 _3b pasted "asdf missing dependency errors" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120487 20:34:51 i meant when you load it in slime 20:34:58 ehu: nobody does key-or-value, aside from CL implementations, I think. 20:35:06 <_3b> that will be the annotation in a sec :) 20:35:41 pkhuong: ok. I'll start with the other three. 20:35:48 thanks. 20:36:15 _3b annotated #120487 "from slime" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120487#1 20:38:25 _3b annotated #120487 "trying to view source in sldb" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120487#2 20:38:59 i get almost the same 20:39:14 phlx [~tp@kiel-5f77ba94.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:05 -!- splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 20:40:42 -!- phlx [~tp@kiel-5f77ba94.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 20:41:27 lundis [~lundis@dyn56-304.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 20:42:23 _3b annotated #120487 "trying to view source in sbcl debugger" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120487#3 20:42:42 -!- drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:42:51 <_3b> not sure what to think about sbcl debugger not finding source for any of them 20:44:24 milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 20:44:25 it might depend on how you installed it, but I bet you know that 20:44:49 interesting. Franz appears not to support :key-or-value either. 20:44:52 <_3b> installed which 'it'? 20:45:11 *stassats* is unleashing all his tremendous bug hunting skills on this bug 20:45:19 _3b: sbcl and its asdf 20:45:22 <_3b> as far as i know they should be loading the same .fasl files, so wouldn't expect differing source locs 20:46:53 Edisto [~IceChat7@c-67-169-114-235.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:25 yo anyone know about microbial lisp? 20:47:35 i mean microbial genetic algorithms 20:48:02 _3b: if you installed latest sbcl from binaries, the source info in the fasls might point to nowhere 20:48:09 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:18 Edisto: never heard of it 20:48:26 <_3b> installed from source 20:48:32 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 20:48:32 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:49:17 what you guys are talking about is irrelevant for this bug 20:49:35 it's a problem used to solve splitting cards into piles finding the combination that gets teh piles to equal to the pile numbers 20:49:56 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Quit: Foo.] 20:49:58 <_3b> and unless i managed to get different sbcl/asdf running command line and slime (loaded from same clbuild in each case) source locations work for some frames in slime 20:50:31 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:52:13 Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 20:52:26 *stassats* just cooked an independent test-case 20:52:40 (independent of asdf, that is) 20:53:44 (restart-case (error "!!!") (retry () :report (lambda (s) (error "!!!")))) 20:54:15 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp 20:54:26 oh, you don't even need a second error 20:55:06 disregard that, you need it 20:55:35 _3b: can you confirm? 20:55:59 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:56:40 drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 20:56:44 <_3b> yeah, looks like it 20:58:18 *_3b* notes that that has swank:format-restarts-for-emacs in the backtrace 20:58:44 <_3b> as does the asdf case 20:59:06 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 20:59:43 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:15 <_3b> hmm, i seem to have confused slime 21:01:29 that's an odd mess of a backtrace. 21:01:51 However, I get a lot of source locations produced correctly 21:02:11 -!- drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:02:19 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host50-182-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:02:33 I can reproduced the fact that hitting v twice gives different results each time 21:03:48 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.207.165] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 21:04:28 <_3b> with-standard-io-syntax around format-restarts-for-emacs in swank:debugger-info-for-emacs seems to help 21:04:52 <_3b> still gets an error there, but at least the backtrace has names 21:05:34 i notice that some of the unnamed backtraces lead to pieces of code inside of functions 21:05:34 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-76-171-245-75.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:06:09 <_3b> and source locations seem reasonable as well in the asdf case 21:06:38 putting without-printing-errors around printing of the restart helps more 21:06:39 <_3b> well, more reasonable, still missing a few 21:07:39 will commit in a minute 21:07:45 but still, asdf shouldn't fail in this place 21:07:46 gary-s [~gary@186.42.102.50] has joined #lisp 21:07:59 oconnore [~eric@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:08 <_3b> does it still show restarts? 21:08:19 yes 21:08:30 it will show " 0: [RETRY] #> {1005D89EB1}>" 21:08:45 <_3b> cool, guess i added it in wrong place then :) 21:11:27 alright, committed it 21:12:15 now, to asdf 21:12:30 -!- Ragnaroek1 [~Adium@p5B0C70A5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:12:58 it seems to be fixed in the latest asdf 21:13:17 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-98-78.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:13:34 -!- Jubb [~ghost@c-98-204-160-127.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:13:47 perhaps i should update asdf in sbcl 21:14:28 -!- xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:15:54 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.77.37.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:16:45 drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 21:17:31 -!- gary-s [~gary@186.42.102.50] has left #lisp 21:17:37 Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 21:18:24 ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has joined #lisp 21:18:29 Deathaholic [~Mococa@189.115.148.246] has joined #lisp 21:18:37 -!- ckelly [~ckelly@microgravity.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:18:45 hi, how can I determine if a "foo" path is an existing filename or existing directory? 21:18:47 *stassats* is sad that this bug was so easy 21:19:06 clhs probe-file 21:19:06 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_probe_.htm 21:19:14 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 21:19:17 <_3b> stassats: did updating asdf fix it? 21:19:23 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:19:39 stassats: I mean I want to know whether it is a dir or a file 21:19:44 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.148.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:20:00 _3b: yes, loading the latest sbcl doesn't cause the restart printer to crash 21:20:05 the latest asdf 21:20:28 ckelly [~ckelly@microgravity.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 21:20:54 <_3b> stassats: looks like a more general fix would be to make sure *print-escape* and *print-readably* aren't both true when printing restarts 21:21:27 how would that help? 21:21:29 <_3b> since when *print-escape*, print-object method for restarts does print-unreadable-object, which errors when *print-readably* 21:22:10 -!- Deathaholic is now known as Mococa 21:23:14 i still don't follow 21:23:28 <_3b> hmm, maybe it doesn't actually help :p 21:23:37 *_3b* was testing poorly 21:24:25 the commit should soon hit the anonymous cvs 21:25:01 lichtblau: any intention of extending xuriella to handle xslt 2.0? :-> 21:25:11 <_3b> actually, i guess princ-to-string sets both of those to NIL, so that shouldn't be it anyway 21:26:17 i don't know what actually fucks up sldb, but errors in the debugger itself are capable of doing anything 21:27:04 pebkc [~user@ip-89-102-12-202.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 21:28:24 Spion__ [~spion@77.29.254.208] has joined #lisp 21:29:41 enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-76-245-62-252.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:12 <_3b> yeah, looks like it was just the asdf problem 21:31:59 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:32:20 it's not specific to asdf 21:32:26 -!- Ragnaroek [~Adium@p5B0C70A5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:32:43 davertron [~david@c-24-218-166-166.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:56 <_3b> i mean nothing more slime can do about it than just not break when the restart report function errors 21:33:16 <_3b> which the without-printing-errors takes care of 21:34:13 <_3b> asdf was trying to call component-find-path on a symbol in the report function for the restart, but there was no applicable method 21:34:30 -!- ckelly [~ckelly@microgravity.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:34:42 yeah, that's how i cooked that test-case 21:34:57 ckelly [~ckelly@microgravity.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 21:35:36 -!- ckelly [~ckelly@microgravity.xs4all.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 21:35:45 *_3b* wonders if the git mirrors have gotten the fixes yet 21:35:50 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.8.159.148] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:35:57 the one at boinkor already has it 21:36:04 ckelly [~ckelly@microgravity.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 21:36:08 <_3b> cool 21:36:14 -!- ckelly [~ckelly@microgravity.xs4all.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 21:36:37 ckelly [~ckelly@microgravity.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 21:36:58 -!- Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:37:05 -!- ckelly [~ckelly@microgravity.xs4all.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 21:37:21 <_3b> did you check in new asdf too? 21:37:25 ckelly [~ckelly@microgravity.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 21:37:35 no, i didn't 21:37:46 <_3b> ok 21:38:22 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 21:38:30 cheezus [~Adium@76-10-163-32.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 21:39:07 -!- drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:39:43 *_3b* notices the discussion about it in #sbcl 21:43:17 ckelly_ [~ckelly@microgravity.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 21:44:59 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.148.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:48:21 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:16 -!- HG` [~HG@dslb-188-109-148-008.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: HG`] 21:50:01 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:51:23 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 21:52:14 -!- cheezus [~Adium@76-10-163-32.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:52:36 drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 21:52:47 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:53:28 Good morning everyone! 21:53:40 some of the frames in the backtrace contain ((lambda ())), but do indeed correspond to normally named functions. 21:53:44 hi beach 21:54:08 i mean in the latest sbcl with latest slime (as of one minute ago) 21:56:29 -!- spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-111-135.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: .] 21:56:57 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.148.246] has joined #lisp 21:57:15 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-139-200.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:57:29 <_3b> hmm, looking closer at how plain sbcl handles it, i wonder if it should handle the error in the restart report better too 21:58:30 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:03:20 <_3b> prxq: for asdf system with missing dependency you mean? 22:03:48 yes 22:04:30 -!- drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:05:09 <_3b> those seem to mostly be actual lambdas 22:05:42 *_3b* 's guess is something to do with tail calls make v end up on a function for them 22:05:43 http://img821.imageshack.us/i/snapshot1g.png/ 22:06:16 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:26 v on the frame where the red cursor is in the bottom leads to the function in the top window 22:06:30 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-68-239-79-144.res.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:07:36 <_3b> hmm, i guess you have some contribs loaded i don't, or i have some you don't 22:07:51 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.148.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:08:17 -!- perseus` [~perseus@ec2-50-16-101-220.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:08:21 i have no contribs whatsoever, as far as i know 22:09:15 (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-asdf)) 22:09:22 prxq: the notion of named function is somewhat meaningless in lisp. 22:09:24 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.148.246] has joined #lisp 22:09:35 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A6F30.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:09:43 <_3b> looks like you have swank-asdf (which defines frame 13), which has a with-compilation-notes, which expands to (call-with-compilation-hooks (lambda () ...)) which is the lambda in frame 11 22:09:44 (defmacro defun (name args &body body) `(setf (symbol-function ',name) (lambda ,args ,@body))) ; basically. 22:10:25 there are some added niceties, but there's no reason why a function cannot be dumped as lambda. 22:10:35 <_3b> no tail calls in that lambda though, no idea why it thinks it is collect-notes 22:11:02 <_3b> pjb: nah, this is debugger stuff, not abstract 'could be implemented in terms of lambda' :) 22:11:23 debugger stuff is implementation dependant: get the sources and patch them! 22:11:37 <_3b> debugger should know how defun was implemented, so know not to show it as lambda 22:12:03 <_3b> right, but first have to figure out what is broken about it to patch :) 22:12:03 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:12:52 <_3b> prxq: oops, i was misremembering, you were talking about frame 14 22:12:52 hm, no, it is the lambda in frame 14 that leads to collect-notes 22:12:59 right :-) 22:13:22 which has frame 16 named after it 22:14:18 <_3b> that is plausibly tail-call stuff though 22:14:19 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-98-78.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:14:20 and which also leads to it 22:14:23 yes 22:14:59 <_3b> or maybe confusion about function being called and args being evaluated for that function 22:16:15 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:39 no, i think it's the closure that collect-notes passes to measure-time-interval. Sort-of case closed. Only thing is that is not as helpful as it might have been :-) 22:17:54 drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 22:18:36 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:18:46 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:19:02 <_3b> ah, right 22:19:04 so a v on a frame belonging to a closure leads you to the function where that closure originated, it seems 22:19:34 <_3b> yeah, that makes sense, higher debug would probably place it exactly 22:19:54 -!- hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:19:58 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-98-78.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:20:31 i will have to try eventually :-) 22:20:36 good night 22:20:41 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75ff81.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: good night] 22:20:56 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:21:05 hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has joined #lisp 22:21:15 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:55 *_3b* wonders why slime/sbcl can't find swank::%listener-eval 22:23:48 <_3b> or any functions in that file, and the defvars go to the top of the file 22:25:26 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:25:47 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 22:26:06 -!- drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:27:38 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:30:50 fantazo [~fantazo@178-190-236-40.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 22:31:17 ben_m [~Ben@chello084113058207.12.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 22:31:30 Hey there :) 22:31:53 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-212-126.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:32:23 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:32 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.148.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:32:40 -!- ckelly [~ckelly@microgravity.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:32:40 -!- ckelly_ [~ckelly@microgravity.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:32:43 Got a question about conventions (I think) ... I know the difference between : and ', I just don't know where I'd use one over the other 22:33:09 <_3b> ' is more general than : (to the extent they are similar at all) 22:33:38 <_3b> : in :foo is a special case of the : used to separate package from symbol name in fully qualified symbols like cl:defun 22:34:00 <_3b> :foo is (more-or-less) a shortcut for keyword:foo 22:34:04 To my knowledge, :foo is pretty much equal to 'keyword:foo 22:34:07 Yeah 22:34:38 ckelly [~ckelly@microgravity.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 22:34:44 <_3b> no ' needed, since symbols interned into KEYWORD are constants, with value = that symbol 22:34:54 <_3b> or in other words, they are self-evaluating 22:35:21 <_3b> ' is a reader macro that expands to (QUOTE ...) where ... is whatever sexp was after the ' 22:35:31 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:35:36 <_3b> and QUOTE just returns whatever was passed to it unmodified 22:35:49 and so is ` except it allows for , and @, ? 22:35:52 Know that, just didn't know that keyword:foo is self-evaluating :D 22:36:16 <_3b> ` is unspecified magic that just needs to behave a certain way when evaluated 22:36:24 <_3b> while ' is required to expand to QUOTE 22:36:26 ace4016 [~ace4016@adsl-32-14-244.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:33 Still, this doesn't answer my question ... when would I use : over ' or the other way around? 22:36:41 seems like a stylistic difference 22:36:48 So I thought there might be some conventions 22:37:06 -!- Atomsk [~ace4016@adsl-32-14-244.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:37:11 milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 22:37:18 <_3b> ben_m: right, getting to that :) 22:37:23 Ah, cool. 22:38:11 <_3b> for the case in question, we are pretty much only talking about symbols, since you couldn't do :(foo bar) and get a list back 22:38:26 -!- oconnore [~eric@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:38:37 <_3b> so the main difference is that 'foo returns the FOO interned into the current value of *package* when it was READ 22:39:07 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 22:39:08 <_3b> or you could have 'some-package:foo or 'other-package::foo to get a specific foo 22:39:29 <_3b> or for that matter ':foo or 'keyword:foo to get the same th9ing as :foo 22:39:29 yeah 22:39:47 <_3b> so it isn't really ' vs :, but KEYWORD: vs some-other-package: 22:40:10 drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 22:40:14 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-53-100.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:40:31 <_3b> which is where we come to the main difference, which is that KEYWORD: package is a global resource, while you can make as many other packages as you want 22:40:32 (defconstant foo 'foo) foo --> foo 'foo --> foo 22:40:58 <_3b> right, that is another reason why it isn't ' vs :, since you can make symbols in other packages that are self-evaluating 22:41:24 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:41:41 <_3b> so finally we have gotten to the question to ask, which is whether you are using the symbol in a way which might clash with other uses of the same name 22:42:28 <_3b> like names of keyword args (for normal functions) are reasonably :keyords, since the interpretation is entirely dependent on that function 22:42:50 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.148.246] has joined #lisp 22:43:30 <_3b> but as a counter example, once you start making subclasses with CLOS, you might plausibly have multiple initargs which could plausibly have the same name but different meanings 22:43:45 <_3b> in which case having them exist in a specific package might be more useful 22:44:59 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757ed9.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:45:33 *_3b* can't think of any good examples though, maybe something with a height in feet, and a number of feet it stands on or something 22:45:57 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:19 LiamH [~healy@pool-68-239-79-144.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:36 <_3b> another issue is that 'foo interns things in *package* while :foo doesn't, which can have annoying consequences in some situations 22:46:40 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-53-100.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:47:07 <_3b> like if you try to USE a package after interning random symbols into *package* you might get conflicts 22:47:25 mhm 22:47:27 -!- drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:47:42 <_3b> a common proble when you do something like (require 'foo), (use-package 'foo) at the repl, if FOO exports foo:foo 22:48:17 <_3b> while if it had been (require :foo) (use-package :foo), it wouldn't have interened FOO into the current *package* and there would have been no conflict 22:48:24 Would it be sensible then to use keywords if I want some kind of symbolic value? 22:48:30 In most cases, that is. 22:48:40 <_3b> #:foo is another alternative for that problem, which doesn't intern foo into any package, and just returns a new symbol 22:48:51 (move :direction :left) versus (move :direction 'left) 22:49:02 <_3b> depends on if there is a global meaning for that symbolic value 22:49:38 :left implies there has to be a packaged symbol named left, right? 22:49:45 err, interned 22:49:48 -!- Edisto [~IceChat7@c-67-169-114-235.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 22:50:05 <_3b> :left names the symbol named "LEFT" in the package KEYWORD (assuming upcasing reader) 22:50:28 <_3b> while 'left is the symbol with same name in current package (which could be but probably isn't KEYWORD) 22:50:40 I do understand that. 22:51:43 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-190-236-40.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:51:50 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:54 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-139-48.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:52:05 Assuming there won't be any name clashes by using the current package symbol (I can't come up with how that would happen, but I fail at lisp), is there any other reason for using keyword symbols? 22:52:19 <_3b> ah, how about (move :direction 'magnetic:north) vs (move :direction 'geographic:north) 22:52:36 hmm 22:52:40 <_3b> for an example wher just :north might not be enough 22:52:53 Would it make sense to have that in a separate package? 22:53:54 <_3b> probably the main reason for using :keywords is just convenience, though in some cases it can make things easier if you need to parse stuff and can just look for (keywordp ...) 22:54:15 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@j109182.upc-j.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 22:54:22 Seems like that 22:54:25 <_3b> the magnetic:north vs geographic:north is still a pretty constrained example, since you could just as easily have :magnetic-north 22:54:30 yeah 22:54:30 <_3b> *contrived example 22:54:35 That's what I thought :D 22:54:46 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:54:56 <_3b> it does happen for real once in a while though :) 22:55:47 <_3b> also, using a symbol from a specific package can be a way to make the API more explicit, since you have the choice of exporting them from the package or not 22:57:26 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-98-78.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:57:47 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-53-100.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo] 22:57:57 Got it 22:58:02 howdy #lisp 22:58:15 Thanks, that helped a lot. 22:58:33 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 23:00:50 drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 23:04:40 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:05:15 muhdick [~qle@99-14-26-190.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:09 symbole [~user@ool-182ff693.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:36 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:07:52 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 23:10:59 -!- pebkc [~user@ip-89-102-12-202.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:11:09 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-68-239-79-144.res.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:11:34 -!- emporas__ [~emporas@athedsl-141593.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:12:13 -!- mpereira [~mpereira@ec2-50-16-8-218.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:12:52 mpereira [~mpereira@ec2-50-16-8-218.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 23:13:14 -!- drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:15:52 emporas__ [~emporas@athedsl-172217.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 23:18:29 so _3b 23:18:37 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-139-48.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:18:40 is CL THE language for coding AI? 23:21:56 any language can be used 23:22:26 On the other hand CL is THE language for most things :) 23:23:20 Odaym: intelligence isn't something that can be synthesized at the moment with current technology. 23:23:43 ... it isn't? 23:23:49 what on earth do you mean? 23:23:54 of course it can 23:23:59 euangelion: I disagree. 23:24:14 well, what is intelligence? 23:24:38 we can only program things we understand 23:24:40 intelligence is something attributed to any holder of the organ which inspired the coining of the word (i.e. brain) 23:24:53 Landr: Perhaps the possibility of committing collective suicide by polluting our own environment? 23:25:09 we can't literally mean that an autonomous vacuum cleaner is intelligent, but it CAN show intelligent behavior 23:25:30 i wouldn't say that's indicative of intelligence, merely the result of a runaway process :P 23:26:05 -!- tauntaun is now known as tautuan_bubble_b 23:26:14 -!- ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has left #lisp 23:26:16 -!- tautuan_bubble_b is now known as tautaun_bathing 23:26:20 propose a solution to the Bridges of Konigsberg to a man that hasn't met with a pen and paper before, and he won't be able to recognize the intelligence behind it 23:26:35 drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 23:26:40 i suppose a rudimentary definition would be the ability to understand and adapt (to) the environment in order to achieve one's goals 23:26:52 so we can't really corner the word in such a manner 23:28:01 but back to the main question 23:28:07 myu2 [~myu2@x108121.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 23:28:30 i read somewhere that Lisp is the language to use for coding AI 23:28:46 and AIMA provides the code repository in Lisp, python and java 23:28:51 im sure i read it somewhere 23:29:06 Lisp and AI spent their childhoods together. 23:29:08 Odaym: Don't believe everything you read. Lisp is the langauge to use for coding just about anything, including AI. 23:29:19 great answer :) 23:29:30 that's what i read, nyef 23:29:32 yes 23:29:38 and not what i was suggesting 23:29:40 ok 23:30:10 *_3b* votes for the 'CL is the language for everything' answer 23:30:15 yea 23:30:17 good answer :P 23:30:43 gary-s [~gary@186.42.102.50] has joined #lisp 23:30:46 <_3b> in particular for exploratory programming with poorly defined specs, which may or may not fit your definition of AI 23:30:59 -!- xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:31:01 OH SNAP! 23:31:01 haha 23:31:04 that's another good answer 23:31:39 "as each programming language develops more and more features, it approaches lisp" or something along those lines 23:31:43 <_3b> if you mean stuff that resulted from AI research, but is well understood, then you might be better picking a language with a well-developed set of libraries for that task, which may or may not be CL 23:31:45 Fits a good definition of AI: "What we don't yet know how to do". 23:32:08 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 23:32:10 AI has few obstacles recently you know 23:32:16 youguy [~youguy@89.pool85-56-107.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 23:32:18 natural language processing being ..the biggest i think 23:32:27 <_3b> if you mean the parts of 'AI' we don't know how to do yet, flexibility of the language is more important, and CL gets more useful than existing languages 23:32:31 but emotions for example is done with totally 23:33:12 we can't even do "seeing" in AI and we're worrying about emotions and language? :D 23:34:12 someone suggested something here earlier 23:34:13 PAIP 23:34:14 what is that? 23:34:29 http://norvig.com/paip.html 23:34:30 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:34:33 -!- alama [~alama@a79-169-81-87.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: alama] 23:35:39 haha 23:35:40 OH NO 23:35:42 <_3b> PAIP is a good book on programming (using CL) which happens to discuss some AI topics :) 23:35:43 im still in PCL 23:35:45 zmv [~daniel@c934a9f5.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 23:35:47 still wayyy back in PCL 23:37:45 -!- tautaun_bathing is now known as tauntaun_drying 23:38:27 but still unable to comprehend the loss of int main () 23:38:30 or public class ... 23:38:34 or ANYTHING of that kind 23:38:55 -!- tauntaun_drying is now known as tautau_pedicure 23:39:26 <_3b> REPL >> main() 23:39:45 aah 23:39:48 makes sense yea 23:40:08 right shift repl by the return value of main bits? :> 23:40:28 <_3b> once you know what you are doing, most CL implementations will let you build executables, in which case you can choose the function to be run when it starts 23:40:45 well, still have.....3 months till project 23:40:47 btbngr [~Matt@188.28.143.225.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:40:47 :) 23:40:57 -!- lanthan [~ze@80.64.176.30] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:41:11 <_3b> Landr: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inequality_%28mathematics%29 <- that '>>' 23:41:41 <_3b> shifting bits would be ASH:p 23:42:04 lanthan [~ze@80.64.176.30] has joined #lisp 23:42:39 -!- emporas__ [~emporas@athedsl-172217.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:43:01 -!- gary-s [~gary@186.42.102.50] has quit [Quit: gary-s] 23:46:10 -!- tautau_pedicure [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:46:48 oconnore [~eric@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:24 Odaym: if you are still reading PCL, then I'd say more reading, less ircing. (unless you have a specific question). 23:52:58 -!- youguy [~youguy@89.pool85-56-107.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 23:53:03 i am quenched from today's chapter 23:53:10 the Simple Database 23:54:38 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:55:50 fisted_ [~fisted@unaffiliated/fisted] has joined #lisp 23:57:46 -!- fisted [~fisted@unaffiliated/fisted] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:58:41 -!- drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]