00:00:09 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:00:14 Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has joined #lisp 00:01:38 -!- taylanub [~taylanub@p4FD944D9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5-dev] 00:02:58 Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 00:03:27 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-180-182.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:04:25 -!- Phooodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:04:47 Phooodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 00:06:04 rien|home [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 00:06:47 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:10:23 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:12:18 oudeis [~oudeis@16.sub-69-97-164.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 00:12:49 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 00:13:31 azaq231 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 00:14:58 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:15:41 -!- Phooodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:17:25 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:18:15 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:18:17 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@16.sub-69-97-164.myvzw.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:18:44 Phooodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 00:19:12 -!- leo2007 [~leo@120.37.103.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:19:20 -!- rien|home is now known as rien 00:19:37 -!- zmv [~daniel@c934a9f5.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:20:51 ehh 00:20:57 the old "scheme is cleaner" thing 00:21:04 it mislead me so much 00:22:56 As opposed to CL's "there must be a pony in here" approach? 00:23:12 -!- Phooodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:23:43 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 00:24:06 no 00:24:13 Phooodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 00:24:22 thankfully, when I finally went for CL seriously, there was PCL 00:24:52 p_l|backup: Yeah, wasted many valuable years of my life. 00:25:14 [the "Scheme is cleaner" thing] 00:25:28 I remember storming the bastion of Lisp and failing tripped by the labirynth of scheme 00:25:35 the scheme I know isn't really cleaner... It's also full of octothorpes ;) 00:25:36 :P 00:25:42 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:25:51 I have an irrational fear of octothorpes 00:25:59 especially zombie octothorpes 00:26:21 ASau [~user@93-80-218-22.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 00:26:36 -!- loke [~elias@bb219-75-125-147.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:26:59 anything with 8 legs creeps me out 00:27:24 Even a table? 00:27:43 the nice thing about CL was that there is the big fat standard that actually contained the crucial functions like I/O 00:27:56 and that the rest was covered by portability libs 00:28:18 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:28:53 -!- Phooodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:29:01 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:48 Phooodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 00:30:06 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-67-150.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:30:27 -!- azaq231 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:31:33 rvirding [~chatzilla@95.209.140.216.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 00:31:41 p_l|backup: You might want to check out Scheme48. There's a paper somewhere by Jonathan Rees about an early version that ran on 68K-based robots. 00:31:48 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 00:32:10 reb`: yeah, but like every single implemetation, every Scheme is different 00:32:21 also, quite a lot of lisps ran on 68k 00:33:29 I am just pointing out a working implementation of the concept you said you were interested in. Perhaps it's worth stealing ideas from the earlier project. 00:33:34 ah, that one 00:33:50 they had a nice "core" scheme to be used for implementing the rest of the system, too 00:34:19 I wonder how much useful processing we could fit into 15g 00:34:19 -!- dralston [~dralston@S0106687f74a12729.va.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 00:34:43 -!- Phooodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:35:20 dralston [~dralston@S0106687f74a12729.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:35:53 On the robots they had a small multithreaded OS written in 68K assembly on which the Scheme bytecode interpreter ran. 00:36:16 nice 00:36:24 these days I'd probably go for L4 00:36:41 yup 00:39:02 -!- Hexstream1 [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 00:41:36 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 00:42:18 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 00:43:35 clear 00:43:48 -!- dkasak [~dkasak@78-1-176-219.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:43:51 kramer3d [~sai@unaffiliated/kramer3d] has joined #lisp 00:47:25 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:47:48 silentbicycle [~scott@99-55-246-143.lightspeed.gdrpmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:47:50 katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:47:50 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 00:47:50 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 00:49:17 bubo [~bubo@178-191-218-177.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 00:49:39 -!- bubo [~bubo@178-191-218-177.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Client Quit] 00:52:38 Phooodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 00:54:11 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:59:06 -!- gozoner_ [~ebg@ebg-10004083621.jpl.nasa.gov] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:00:34 -!- tsuru [~charlie@adsl-179-29-10.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:00:46 QinGW [~wangqingw@60.247.26.3] has joined #lisp 01:02:01 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has left #lisp 01:03:14 Teeko [~Teeko@50.Red-88-5-131.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:28 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:07:08 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:07:56 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:08:55 derrida [~derrida@unaffiliated/deleuze] has joined #lisp 01:10:08 basho___ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-006-164.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:20 sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:20 -!- basho__ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-149-091.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:12:50 marmadeoli [~marmadeol@187.114.125.221] has joined #lisp 01:14:19 I have a errors: "Wrong type characterp: nil" in this code - tp://paste.lisp.org/display/120072 someone can help me! 01:14:33 http://paste.lisp.org/display/120072 01:14:39 reb`: OTOH, it's military, who knows just what one might end up working in... :P 01:14:41 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 01:17:18 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:19:56 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA360CD.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:21:01 marmadeoli: That looks like Emacs Lisp. 01:21:47 beach: yes, it is 01:22:14 marmadeoli: It is probably better to ask in #emacs then. This channel is more about Common Lisp. 01:22:53 -!- waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-4d049372.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: WTF? leaving!] 01:26:24 -!- marmadeoli [~marmadeol@187.114.125.221] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:31:31 -!- jweiss [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:32:40 -!- Teeko [~Teeko@50.Red-88-5-131.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Teeko] 01:34:55 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:40:40 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 01:41:41 pnq [~nick@ACA2611D.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 01:47:18 cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.134.6] has joined #lisp 01:53:39 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-76-90-52-4.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: (quit)] 01:54:02 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:55:06 -!- silentbicycle [~scott@99-55-246-143.lightspeed.gdrpmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:56:07 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 01:57:09 ice_man [~user@CPE0024d23789ef-CM001a666a9242.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 01:57:48 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@95.209.140.216.bredband.tre.se] has left #lisp 01:58:28 How many requests per second can the fastest web server written in lisp do on, say, one of the recent consumer-level intel-based computers? 02:02:07 gko [~gko@60-251-71-121.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:15 anyone? 02:02:20 panike [~nwp@76.201.148.105] has joined #lisp 02:02:24 tenawa [~user@adsl-75-53-123-94.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:02 -!- pabst [~anonymous@208.74.177.139.static.etheric.net] has quit [Quit: pabst] 02:04:49 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:49 dunno, though I heard antiweb is quite fast. There's also teepeedee2. But the preferred platform seems to be Hunchentoot and possibly Nginx 02:05:16 milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 02:06:16 folks at Teclo could probably get a very fast one because they do all TCP/IP in Lisp (that is, it's implemented in CL) 02:06:57 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: storm] 02:07:28 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:09:31 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 02:09:52 nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has joined #lisp 02:09:53 -!- nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has quit [Changing host] 02:09:53 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 02:13:08 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-183-250.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:14:00 -!- gko [~gko@60-251-71-121.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:14:55 LiamH [~healy@pool-68-239-79-144.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:15:58 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[~nyef@pool-70-109-132-180.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 03:34:23 -!- bfein [~morik@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:34:23 -!- foom [~jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:34:23 -!- dcrawford [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:36:45 jkantz [~jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 03:36:48 dcrawford [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 03:36:50 lemonodor [~lemonodor@66.102.14.8] has joined #lisp 03:36:58 bfein [~morik@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 03:37:00 foom [~jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 03:37:05 -!- Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:37:25 Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has joined #lisp 03:39:03 Where is it specified that nstring-upcase (and pals) signal an error for symbols? 03:39:41 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 03:39:41 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-97-16.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:40:24 evening 03:40:30 Hello slyrus 03:40:33 hello slyrus 03:41:19 mon_key: On the CLHS page. 03:41:43 mon_key: string---a string designator. For nstring-upcase, nstring-downcase, and nstring-capitalize, the string designator must be a string. 03:41:59 mon_key: How could you have missed that? 03:42:08 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-132-180.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 03:42:10 spiaggia: one moment 03:42:47 -!- Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:43:05 hi 03:43:15 lo 03:43:22 for some reason i'e become interested in irc indexing and search. http://heavymetalab.appspot.com/?q=user:gigamonkey+pcl 03:43:33 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:43:51 Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has joined #lisp 03:44:07 has logs from 2004 to a few days ago. isn't very robust yet, and doesn't have browsing ability--just search. 03:44:08 spiaggia: b/c i'm blind??? 03:44:40 -!- madsenz1 [~madsenz@n11z181l194.static.ctm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:44:49 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.63.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:44:57 madsenz [~madsenz@n11z181l194.static.ctm.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:23 spiaggia: and maybe b/c there isn't a complement "may be" for the N-less variants 03:46:04 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.84.82] has joined #lisp 03:46:34 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:47:57 hey lemonodor 03:48:37 hey slyrus 03:49:26 mon_key: When it says "string designator", that's a well-defined concept, so it is in the glossary (it includes symbols), and the explicit exceptions are listed. 03:49:44 -!- Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:50:15 Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has joined #lisp 03:50:37 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@66.102.14.8] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 03:50:38 lemonodor: Nice. Though I have just been using grep in the past. Works quite well actually. 03:51:01 -!- myu2 [~myu2@x108121.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:52:17 spiaggia: sure, if you've got the logs lying around, I guess 03:52:30 spiaggia: I understood that string- operated on symbols. I'd forgotten that the nstring- variants were specific to string but remembered that there are numerous places in the spec that discuss the "undefined consequences" of modifying a symbol-name... hence my querey. In any event, I read right over the relevant portion... So thanks for helping me to see the light :) 03:52:39 slyrus: Of course I would have. Otherwise I couldn't use grep on them. :) 03:53:04 I think the point is that with lemonodor's system, the logs live in the cloud, just like in the microsoft ad 03:53:05 mon_key: Sure, no problem. 03:53:56 slyrus: I guess so. 03:54:19 certainly more usable on my phone than grep, for better or worse 03:54:24 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 03:54:51 slyrus: That says a lot about your phone, doesn't it? :) 03:55:00 like i said, for better or worse... 03:55:01 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sbahra] 03:55:05 Yeah. 03:55:32 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 03:56:33 -!- Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:57:43 Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has joined #lisp 03:58:12 anyone have a good pbm file lying around? 03:59:50 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:00:10 pbm ? 04:00:26 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 04:01:28 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:02:05 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 04:02:30 Portable Bit Map. 04:02:39 ups 04:02:53 Does anybody use pbm anymore? 04:03:00 no but i have en e.coli pdb if you want?! 04:03:18 -!- Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:03:24 slyrus: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/page3.pbm 04:03:32 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 04:03:33 -!- madsenz [~madsenz@n11z181l194.static.ctm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:03:51 madsenz [~madsenz@n11z181l194.static.ctm.net] has joined #lisp 04:04:02 Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has joined #lisp 04:04:29 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.77.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:05:04 slyrus: http://paulbourke.net/dataformats/ppm/ has a sample pbm file 04:05:18 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:05:25 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.75.217] has joined #lisp 04:06:07 thanks 04:06:13 I made one of a goat, I'll use that instead 04:06:26 who knows if anybody uses pbm, but opticl will soon be able to read and write it 04:06:45 argh, mailman day already?? 04:06:53 Indeed! 04:07:18 slyrus: I sometimes use PBM files for black-and-white scans of documents. 04:07:33 [like the one in the URL above] 04:07:59 -!- sglinux [~sglinux@cm36.sigma110.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:08:37 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 04:12:20 cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.82] has joined #lisp 04:12:24 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.82] has quit [Changing host] 04:12:24 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 04:13:07 I installed SBCL and then used quicklisp to install other stuff. Now I want to get the newest version of SBCL. What's the best method? 04:14:49 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 04:16:13 I should have said: I first installed a binary SBCL distribution from Sourceforge, then used quicklisp to install other stuff. Now I want to get the newest version of SBCL. What's the best method? 04:16:32 Download a new version? 04:17:25 rtoym: I was about to do that, when it occurred to me that quicklisp might get confused then, and that it might be possible to do it using quicklisp. 04:17:41 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.84.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:17:41 theBlack1ragon [~dragon@83.101.84.31] has joined #lisp 04:18:43 spiaggia: I regularly update cmucl and quicklisp updates itself just fine. (Not dowloading a new version, but recompiling the quicklisp files). I'm guessing that quicklisp doesn't know how to download implementations. 04:18:54 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has joined #lisp 04:19:18 rtoym: Thanks. That's precisely what I needed to know! 04:20:40 redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:21:36 adu [~ajr@softbank220043139062.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 04:22:11 -!- Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:22:22 -!- adu [~ajr@softbank220043139062.bbtec.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:22:42 Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has joined #lisp 04:25:29 hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 04:25:58 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-183-250.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:27:00 -!- Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:27:16 -!- BrianRice [~water@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:28:41 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has joined #lisp 04:30:02 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:31:12 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 04:32:04 Taggnostr3 [~x@dyn57-215.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 04:32:53 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-68-239-79-144.res.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:33:07 Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has joined #lisp 04:33:29 -!- Taggnostr2 [~x@dyn57-215.yok.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:33:53 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:35:37 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 04:37:00 BrianRice [~water@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:11 dumrat [~dumrat@112.135.224.227] has joined #lisp 04:39:40 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-183-250.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:41:23 lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-75-83-150-91.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:46:08 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:46:36 -!- gko [~gko@60-251-71-121.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:47:12 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 04:47:16 gko [~gko@60-251-71-121.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 04:50:13 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:50:24 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ynicnggqtebnaorq] has joined #lisp 04:50:44 keyvan [~keyvan@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:50:47 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 04:51:21 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Client Quit] 04:54:57 rootlocus [~rootlocus@2402:1800:1:2801:226:4aff:fe09:eee2] has joined #lisp 04:56:57 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:57:03 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 04:58:29 darn. I can't displace unsigned-bytes to bits. 05:00:53 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:00:57 adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 05:04:14 -!- pevaneyn1 [~pevaneyn@77.109.100.142] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:08:53 coffeemug [~coffeemug@adsl-76-254-60-115.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:09:03 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 05:10:31 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 05:12:17 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:14:22 oudeis [~oudeis@cpe-67-255-9-80.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:14:48 -!- Jamamooga [~Jamamooga@74-95-42-29-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:17:01 -!- super__ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:17:54 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 05:17:56 -!- dralston [~dralston@S0106687f74a12729.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Learnin' me a book.] 05:18:18 Jamamooga [~Jamamooga@74-95-42-29-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 05:18:33 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 05:19:35 Jamamooga_ [~Jamamooga@74-95-42-29-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:34 beach` [~user@116.118.6.164] has joined #lisp 05:22:27 -!- Jamamooga [~Jamamooga@74-95-42-29-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:22:57 -!- beach [~user@116.118.11.231] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:30:57 Practical Common Lisp is among the greatest programming texts I've ever used. :3 05:31:34 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 05:32:53 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:34:46 That book is great indeed 05:35:10 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.211.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:35:47 I was having trouble deriving anything immediately useable from On Lisp. no such problem here 05:35:57 I'll go back to On Lisp eventually though. 05:36:50 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-qsqwpjfbmdxomapr] has joined #lisp 05:36:50 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-qsqwpjfbmdxomapr] has quit [Changing host] 05:36:50 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:39:12 -!- Joreji [~thomas@79-125.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:39:54 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 05:40:40 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-183-250.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:41:16 Any verrazano experts present? http://paste.lisp.org/display/120074 05:41:32 -!- gko [~gko@60-251-71-121.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:42:58 ((SB-PCL::FAST-METHOD FLEXML:CLASS-FOR-NODE-NAME (T T T STRING T)) # # # NIL "GCCXML" "Unimplemented" "Unimplemented") 05:43:05 not an expert, but that "unimplemented" there. 05:43:09 seems suspicious. 05:43:17 maybe you've got a gcc-xml version mismatch? 05:43:35 *_3b__* vaugely remembers just hacking it to ignore "unimplemented" when i saw that 05:43:42 -!- _3b__ is now known as _3b 05:43:44 antifuchs: Good point. Wasn't aware a specific version was required for verrazano. Yikes. :-/ 05:43:54 the wisdom of the half-informed! (-: 05:43:58 _3b__: You wouldn't still have the patch lying around by chance would you? :) 05:45:09 <_3b> yeah, just trying to remember how to do stuff with darcs to get it now 05:46:28 gko [~gko@60-251-71-121.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 05:46:41 _3b: Thanks. Found the relevant code, http://common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi?r=fetter-verrazano;a=headblob;f=/src/flexml.lisp L159 05:48:55 <_3b> http://paste.lisp.org/+2KNE/1 05:49:01 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@cpe-67-255-9-80.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 05:49:27 _3b: Fantastic. Thanks very much! 05:49:43 -!- parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:49:54 <_3b> don't remember any details though, so no idea if it is anything important or not 05:50:14 -!- keyvan [~keyvan@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:50:16 *_3b* tends to not use the generated bindings directly anyway, just something to copy/paste from to avoid typing 05:50:37 parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 05:50:52 keyvan [~keyvan@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:50:53 -!- gko [~gko@60-251-71-121.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:52:32 <_3b> vaguely remember it being something like SSE intrinsics, or special structure layout or alignment or something stuff, so probably stuff that would need translated by hand anyway 05:53:42 _3b: Yuck yuck. Good to know. Thanks. 05:55:04 gko [~gko@60-251-71-121.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 06:02:11 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:03:52 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 06:04:15 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.66.172.182] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 06:05:06 Areil [~Areil@113.172.38.12] has joined #lisp 06:06:38 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:11:42 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 06:14:49 Liera [~user@113.172.38.12] has joined #lisp 06:15:58 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp2364.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 06:16:09 gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.211.120] has joined #lisp 06:18:13 -!- tenawa [~user@adsl-75-53-123-94.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:18:56 -!- gko [~gko@60-251-71-121.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:19:15 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-oqpquwunigagqdzx] has joined #lisp 06:19:49 gko [~gko@60-251-71-121.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 06:21:49 chrnybo [~user@148.122.202.244] has joined #lisp 06:22:53 nostoi [~nostoi@21.Red-79-154-23.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 06:25:00 leifw [~leif@ool-18bac6ad.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 06:26:41 dborba [~dborba@pool-74-105-202-55.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:37:47 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 06:38:55 http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#Controlling-where-ASDF-searches-for-systems, paragraph 7.6 claims that a double slash in the end of a path makes asdf seek it recursively. In practice, too? 06:39:16 jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 06:39:16 -!- rootlocus [~rootlocus@2402:1800:1:2801:226:4aff:fe09:eee2] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:39:42 it doesn't live up to this claim? 06:39:45 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:40:18 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:40:22 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@21.Red-79-154-23.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 06:41:01 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:43:12 -!- emporas [~emporas@athedsl-173714.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:44:29 stassats`: I shouldn't say for sure yet. I probably messed it up myself. 06:45:10 cheezus [~Adium@76.10.163.32] has joined #lisp 06:45:45 -!- ice_man [~user@CPE0024d23789ef-CM001a666a9242.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:47:34 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:47:44 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 06:48:27 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:49:27 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:50:17 stassats`: Yup, an (asdf::initialize-source-registry) was what I lacked. 06:51:41 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-128-138.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:51:47 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 06:54:24 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:54:41 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:54:58 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 06:56:36 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@74.209.54.217] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:57:12 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@74.209.54.217] has joined #lisp 06:59:09 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-76-90-52-4.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 07:00:48 mgindulescu [~mircea@nat/nokia/x-gurucelmapnsehvz] has joined #lisp 07:01:41 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:02:45 wow, gentemp is even more useless than i remembered 07:02:56 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:03:13 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:06:19 -!- Zahl [~kenneth@lnx101.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:10:36 -!- cheezus [~Adium@76.10.163.32] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:11:15 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has quit [Quit: be back later] 07:13:41 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has joined #lisp 07:13:42 -!- dumrat [~dumrat@112.135.224.227] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:13:59 -!- rdd` is now known as rdd 07:17:13 nuthouse [63ee3376@gateway/web/freenode/ip.99.238.51.118] has joined #lisp 07:17:48 can someone point me to some help on installing SLIME for emacs on windows? 07:18:58 google.com 07:21:16 Davsebamse [~das@94.127.50.104] has joined #lisp 07:21:20 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has joined #lisp 07:21:20 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has quit [Changing host] 07:21:20 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 07:23:00 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:27:59 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 07:28:02 :( 07:28:02 enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-76-245-62-252.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:28:04 Thanks for Dropbox so that I have to do it only once. 07:28:31 nuthouse: Any particular problem? 07:28:46 dumrat [~dumrat@112.135.193.108] has joined #lisp 07:29:00 well I tried putting this code into a lisp file: 07:29:01 (add-to-list 'load-path "/the/path/to/slime") (require 'slime) (add-hook 'lisp-mode-hook (lambda () (slime-mode t))) (add-hook 'inferior-lisp-mode-hook (lambda () (inferior-slime-mode t))) ;; Optionally, specify the lisp program you are using. Default is "lisp" (setq inferior-lisp-program "yourlisp") 07:29:08 got it from a website 07:29:21 I got my emacs to run something called inferior lisp, but nothing shows up 07:29:28 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:29:43 good morning 07:29:49 you have to download SLIME first. 07:29:57 yeah, I did 07:30:04 where should I extract it though? 07:30:11 I just put it in the same folder as my emaxs 07:30:14 emacs* 07:30:50 What happens when M-x slime ? 07:31:16 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:31:47 MoALTz [~no@92.18.80.15] has joined #lisp 07:31:50 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 07:32:05 uhh.. sorry I don't know what M - x is, I have never used emacs before 07:33:03 Maybe you can try Lispbox ? 07:33:42 ah, that sounds good thanks 07:34:16 nuthouse: type C-h t, ie. Control-h, then t, and follow the tutorial. It will exaplain what M-x is. 07:34:17 it has everything configured, so you can try this first. 07:34:31 It is a slight hassle having to learn a new editor / ide and a new language at the same time. 07:34:41 -!- akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-123-094.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:34:41 nuthouse: notice that typing C-h t is the first thing emacs displays when you launch it!!! 07:34:43 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@92.18.80.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:34:53 Phoodus [~foo@ip68-231-47-70.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:35:10 cool 07:35:26 *pjb* loathes GUI programs, for because of them, people don't read messages from programs anymore. 07:36:19 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 07:36:48 dumrat pasted "WTH" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120075 07:37:02 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 07:37:24 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-77-24.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:37:57 e-user [~akahl@192.100.120.41] has joined #lisp 07:39:21 120,000+ pastes! Yay! 07:39:51 :( 07:40:06 dumrat: it's bad style to use () for data in programs. Use either: '() for the empty list, nil for the false boolean, or 'nil for the NIL symbol. 07:40:46 dumrat: otherwise, do you have a question? 07:40:57 hmm 07:40:57 who invented this style? i disagree with it1 07:40:58 ! 07:41:07 I want to get my list back! 07:41:28 You instruct dolist to return o, and you never modify this variable. What do you expect? 07:41:47 gaaaaah 07:42:07 &$^@#(^@$ 07:42:11 30minutes 07:42:17 thanks 07:43:21 *stassats* doesn't like when someone's stylistic preferences are pushed as bad or good style 07:43:49 stassats: it's not personal, it's respected by 99.99999% of the lisp code you'll find out there. 07:44:16 stassats: there's sometimes some exchange between '() and nil, but otherwise, you'll verify that. 07:44:44 i don't by this argument 07:44:54 yayyy lispbox looks good, thanks gko :) 07:45:02 stassats: that's YOUR problem. 07:46:08 err 07:46:10 i need a logical explanation why '() is better than (), and all presented never satisfied me, and i don't intend to mindlessly pursue something just because the majority do it 07:46:13 pjb 07:46:48 nuthouse: have fun :) 07:46:57 how do i accumulate and return the elements in the list? 07:47:08 keyvan- [~keyvan@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:47:14 and 'nil seems completely crazy to me 07:47:19 stassats: that's because it expresses that it's code (because of the quote) and it expressed that we want to obtain from it an emtpy list (because of ()). This is by contrast to () being just an empty list data, or 'nil being code returning the symbol nil, or nil begin the false boolean. 07:47:34 stassats: not if what you want is a symbol, by contrast to a list or a boolean. 07:47:46 dumrat: you can modify the binding of a variable using SETF. 07:47:55 -!- keyvan [~keyvan@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:48:26 pjb: NIL is already a symbol 07:48:33 -!- theBlack1ragon is now known as theBlackDragon 07:48:39 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 07:48:43 Yes, but it will be interpreted by PEOPLE as being the false boolean. 07:49:17 X is not a symbol, but 'X returns the symbol X. Similarly, NIL is not a symbol, (it's a constant variable that happens to be bound to the symbol NIL), but 'NIL returns the symbol NIL. 07:49:34 <_death> '(1 2 3), '(1 2), '(1), .. what is the next step? 07:49:43 '() 07:49:51 <_death> do you not see that it's less arbitrary than just ()? 07:49:53 i don't know what kind of code you need to write so that such subtle cues are necessary to understand it 07:50:15 stassats: code to be read by humans. 07:50:18 -!- OODavo [~david@ppp121-44-75-129.lns20.syd6.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: irssi scripts conflicting -_-] 07:50:25 *_3b* wonders if people quote :foo when they want the symbol :foo rather than its value 07:50:27 _death: isn't that the same as #'(lambda ()) vs. (lambda ())? 07:50:40 pjb: does that mean that i'm not a human? 07:50:48 OODavo [~david@ppp121-44-75-129.lns20.syd6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:50:58 For example, (pprint '(defun f () '())) will often produce (defun f nil 'nil) and the understanding won't be the same. 07:51:00 _death: and note, i don't argue that it's a bad style, it's your preference 07:51:25 i just don't agree that it's universal dogmatic style which you should obey or no one will understand your code 07:51:27 stassats: no, we programmers are not. We have loaded a computer in our brains. At least, a more formal computer than normal humans. 07:51:49 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-128-138.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 07:51:57 <_death> stassats: I don't see why it should be "the same".. 07:52:10 _3b: indeed, ':foo has a different conotation than just :foo. 07:52:48 _death: because it produces the same result while looks different 07:53:05 <_3b> pjb: that's teh other direction... i'd agree i would interpret it differently... i was wondering if anyone bothers to write it that way 07:53:07 stassats: binary code may also produce the same result. 07:53:08 you can say #'foo, #'bar, next logical step is #'(lambda ()) 07:54:48 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:55:21 <_death> stassats: sure.. and #'(lambda ...) is more consistent than (lambda ...) in those cases.. however I prefer to use (lambda ...) because consistency isn't everything 07:55:40 *pjb* writes (function foo) anyways... 07:56:52 <_death> stassats: also I tend to use '() rather than (list) in cases where the list should be fresh in general 07:57:09 There's no fresh empty list. 07:57:17 _death: i write () because it's the same as '() and i don't need to expect from the reader of the code to get the reference of what i indented solely based on this subtle cue 07:57:40 stassats: you're alone. 07:57:57 <_death> pjb: right.. I'm talking about something like (expect-fresh-list (if something (list 1 2) )) 07:58:14 _death: actually, I'd argue that (list) is misleading, because it doesn't return a mutable object, contrarily to other calls to list. 07:59:05 i'd expect more logical explanations than "one vs. many" 07:59:44 stassats: there's no formal reason, unless you build a very complex formal system. 07:59:48 <_death> stassats: my point was that they have varying degrees of arbitrariness 08:00:09 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:01:09 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl14-67-159.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:01:28 <_death> in the same way Pascal programmers use one-based indexing and C programmers use zero-based indexing, but preference for the latter is not totally unjustified 08:02:33 akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-123-094.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:02:55 what? 1-based indexing is insane 08:02:57 i agree that it's arbitrary, i just i don't agree that you should tell people that either of them is preferred, just because you like it more 08:03:17 <_death> (and indeed, some languages repeat Pascal's decision, to my distaste.. e.g., Lua) 08:03:56 <_death> stassats: why not? do you not agree with the notion of subjective value? 08:04:20 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.211.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:05:20 (aref #("" "Jan" "Feb" "Mar" ... "Dec") month) 08:05:48 cfy [~cfy@218.75.27.174] has joined #lisp 08:05:55 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.27.174] has quit [Changing host] 08:05:55 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 08:06:12 so, if you're used to use (), don't rush to change all your code to '() just because someone says so, but which is really insignificant in reality 08:07:01 <_death> it is insignificant to the Lisp compiler, but may not be insignificant to the person reading the code 08:07:57 -!- pnq [~nick@AC810A26.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:08:22 <_death> the choice, of course, is for the person writing the code (assuming no external imposition).. but it's good to be informed about the target audience 08:08:32 i don't know where that assumption comes from, if i extrapolate from my experience, to me () and '() are equivalent (when evaluated) 08:09:19 <_death> stassats: but others notice it and remark on it, so maybe it's not equivalent to everyone.. 08:09:51 <_3b> that doesn't mean it is /better/ for everyone though 08:09:53 i've seen only a couple people vocal about this 08:09:54 -!- dborba [~dborba@pool-74-105-202-55.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 08:09:55 splittist [~splittist@235-145.62-81.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 08:09:59 if i knew everyone, i could make an informed decision 08:10:26 *_3b* might argue it adds cognitive load, in a 'that is odd, is it doing something special i should pay attention to' sort of way 08:10:28 <_death> well, you don't usually write your Lisp code so that it'll be read by everyone ;).. maybe just by #lisp residents ;) 08:10:50 Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has joined #lisp 08:10:54 <_3b> sort of like quoted numbers or strings would 08:11:29 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-128-138.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:12:06 From my beginners perspective I'd read NIL as the boolean value, () as an empty list, be wondering about '() and be aghast at 'nil ... unless there's some comment nearby... so (incf _3b) 08:12:11 <_death> stassats: I'm saying that to me, it would make more sense to listen to the various members of my target audience (say, Lisp programmers) in addition to my own experience than just to "extrapolate from my own experience" 08:13:03 <_death> flip: beginners are the last people who should be remarking about Lisp style 08:13:46 -!- _death is now known as adeht 08:13:50 _death: aren't you extrapolating from your own experience? or did you present to two groups of people two variants of code, one with () and another with '(), and they said which one is more clear? 08:13:51 _death: the beginners of today are the bosses of tomorrow ;-) 08:13:57 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:15:00 flip214: does not change anything 08:15:05 actually, i'd say that '() is logical, but the logic behind it is too insignificant to bother 08:15:06 stassats: I'm not sure why you present this false dilemma 08:15:10 -!- splittist [~splittist@235-145.62-81.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 08:15:43 stassats: some people here say one thing, and others say another.. I don't need to have a controlled experiment to satisfy the standard upon which I base my choice 08:16:17 echo-are` [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 08:16:20 i don't question your choices 08:16:27 stassats: so I have your input, pjb's input, flip's input, etc. 08:17:02 gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.211.120] has joined #lisp 08:17:04 ehu [~ehuels@109.34.61.101] has joined #lisp 08:17:44 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:17:49 i'd rather say to somebody new "here's the deal: pros of (), pros of '(), you decide which is better for you" and not "'() is better" or "() is better" 08:18:49 splittist [~splittist@235-145.62-81.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 08:19:34 slash_ [~unknown@pD955D667.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:19:52 stassats: that is one approach to instruction.. I generally don't like it because if you take it to a logical extreme you'll end up in an infinite regress (why does it matter? reasons given, why do they matter, ad infinitum) 08:20:45 stassats: in general I like to start with the conclusion: use this.. why? give the arguments to support it.. why? maybe give more arguments, etc. until patience runs out or we both die of hunger :) 08:21:30 i usually just add "i prefer this way" remark if it's something controversial 08:21:34 stassats: basically, there's no ultimate justification we can reach.. 08:23:19 stassats: well, I wouldn't consider '() vs. () to be controversial, even with your input.. 08:24:15 dumrat pasted "raise lists" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120076 08:24:41 if you can come up with some pro arguments that don't involve the equivalent in what they evaluate to, I may change my mind 08:25:15 Who of you prefer ()? 08:25:24 me! 08:25:29 MoALTz_ [~no@92.18.80.15] has joined #lisp 08:25:36 I could have bet :-) 08:25:49 guys, help me with my problem please 08:25:54 :) 08:25:58 my pro argument is that pro arguments for '() aren't convicting enough, so i'd rather type less and save a byte on bandwidth 08:26:34 stassats: how about a reader macro @ 08:26:39 -!- Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:26:57 dumrat: Your paycheck hasn't arrived yet 08:27:01 adeht: that's taking it too far 08:27:05 (or IOW patience young padawan) 08:27:15 ?? 08:27:35 *tcr* regrets having opened the link slowly walks away 08:27:46 for what it's worth, i also use just () 08:28:01 tcr: what link? 08:28:04 this isn't democracy! 08:28:06 Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has joined #lisp 08:28:07 the lisp paste 08:28:16 whats wrong with is 08:28:19 *it 08:28:29 dumrat: or rather -- what's right with it? 08:28:41 aah 08:28:45 i can't say 08:28:49 :p 08:28:51 <_3b> well, at least the variables are named LIST rather than LST :) 08:29:05 1 point goes to _3b 08:29:46 If we are done with throwing rocks at the poor hunchback 08:29:48 <_3b> clhs notany 08:29:48 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_everyc.htm 08:29:49 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.18.80.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:30:02 <_3b> ^ might simplify (or replace) the first function 08:30:37 *_3b* has no idea what 'R' is intended to do given that name 08:30:42 dumrat: good response :-) 08:31:08 <_3b> so even if i did figure out what it /does/ do, i still wouldn't know if it is right 08:32:15 <_3b> 'lvl1' isn't any more informative, and the paste didn't say what it does and what is wrong with that (and i'm too lazy to paste it into a repl and test it myself) 08:32:20 well, to get from *txt* to what you say you want: (cons (car *txt*) (cadr *txt*)) 08:32:21 argh package-lock on speed, velocity here I come! 08:32:45 dumrat: how about (defun lvl1 (list) (cons (car list) (cadr list)))? 08:33:09 oh, what incandenza said 08:33:18 heh :) 08:33:34 <_3b> the first branch of the IF in LVL1 looks odd, unless there is some recursion there i missed, and even then it would probably want to swap the args of that CONS call 08:33:47 *txt* is just an example 08:34:05 <_3b> APPEND in a loop is usually a bad sign 08:34:08 it maybe like ' ("field" (("data_type" "integer") ("name" "entity_id")) "100") 08:34:26 tcr: but it's not the same! 08:34:49 well, one guess would be (defun do-something (list) (mapcan (lambda (item) (if (atomp item) (list item) (copy-list item))))) 08:34:49 I guess dumrat wants to flatten the tree up to a certain level of nesting in CARs.. you could take the classic FLATTEN function and use it in a function treating the top level(s) specially 08:35:14 -!- pavlvs [~pavlvs@231.56.143.24.cm.sunflower.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:35:22 adeht: Exactly what I want 08:35:29 :) 08:35:29 pavlvs [pavlvs@231.56.143.24.cm.sunflower.com] has joined #lisp 08:35:48 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-75-83-150-91.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:36:02 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-247-57.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 08:36:23 maybe you'd better use CXML for parsing xml into something structured? so that you wouldn't need to mangle nested lists 08:36:52 stassats: Will check 08:36:57 dumrat: does my function (with errors fixed) do what you want? 08:37:56 -!- echo-are` is now known as echo-area 08:40:41 jdz: yes it does. 08:40:43 :) 08:41:29 <_3b> oh, r is just a slow copy-list? 08:42:39 <_3b> well, slow and broken 08:43:20 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-118-66.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 08:44:19 Taggnostr2 [~x@dyn57-215.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 08:44:32 -!- Taggnostr3 [~x@dyn57-215.yok.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:44:43 (loop for item in list if (atom item) collect item else append item) 08:45:22 seems to work, but i can't guarantee it should 08:46:02 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 08:51:24 -!- Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:51:39 kenyao [~kenyao@221.179.0.11] has joined #lisp 08:51:52 Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has joined #lisp 08:52:01 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-74-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:52:18 ltriant [~ltriant@124-148-191-172.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 08:54:02 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:54:27 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-76-245-62-252.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: bed!] 08:55:11 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-43-6.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:55:11 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 08:55:27 -!- kenyao [~kenyao@221.179.0.11] has quit [Client Quit] 08:57:33 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:57:46 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-67-150.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:58:17 -!- Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:59:18 Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has joined #lisp 09:02:45 jdz: "6.1.3 Value Accumulation Clauses" ensure it's guaranted. 09:03:06 pjb: thanks! 09:03:33 Thanks to you, it's an interesting feature. 09:04:26 jdz: you can switch from orange belt to green belt for loop-fu. :-) 09:04:51 -!- HET4 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:04:53 pjb: which of the belts gets me closer to Chuck Norris? 09:05:17 -!- Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:05:22 Whah! Chuck Norris is beyond black-and-white-strip belt with infinite dans. 09:06:21 You have: white, yellow, orange, green, blue, violet, brown, black, black one dan, black two dans, ... black-and-white-strip, black-and-white-strip one dan, black-and-white-strip two dans, ..., and beyond, and then Chuck Norris. 09:06:22 Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has joined #lisp 09:07:19 Chuck Norris does not need belts, it's the belts that want to appear on Chuck Norris's waist. 09:07:37 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 09:07:57 Chuck Norris can hold his pants on by sheer force of attraction. 09:08:14 *pjb* wonders if Chuck Norris knows when and how we talk about him... 09:08:31 Chuck Norris knows everythivg 09:08:36 thing even 09:08:46 That's odd. 09:11:38 zac314159 [~user@c-68-84-149-234.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:11:39 -!- zac314159 [~user@c-68-84-149-234.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has left #lisp 09:12:33 pjb: if Chuck Norris would not approve of us talking about him, we'd surely regret our talking 09:12:52 but this is getting offtopic 09:13:19 although, Chuck Norris is on-topic in every single forum 09:14:19 H4ns` [~user@pD4B9E8FD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:15:34 we can replace Chuck Norris with Paul Graham, like "pg can write scheme even when he uses CL" 09:16:10 tfb_ [~tfb@92.40.40.48.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:16:58 lol 09:17:21 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-165.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:17:26 -!- tfb_ is now known as tfb 09:18:33 -!- nuthouse [63ee3376@gateway/web/freenode/ip.99.238.51.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:18:35 -!- H4ns [~user@pD4B9E0B4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:21:09 aerique [euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 09:21:22 Paul Graham does not need the symbol to be generated by GENSYM to be unique, he simply _knows_ things will work. 09:22:38 -!- Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:22:49 "pg can write recursive code even when there's no tail call optimization" 09:23:11 Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has joined #lisp 09:23:40 (my remark is in reference to Arc's broken gensym) 09:25:14 "ps calls his variables LST because he conflicts with all namespaces. and he always wins" 09:25:18 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:25:37 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 09:26:42 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:28:15 -!- Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:29:04 Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has joined #lisp 09:29:28 pg doesn't need to care about performance; if a language took long to write, it should take long to use 09:32:30 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:40:17 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 09:48:07 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:48:53 -!- OliverUv [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:50:00 -!- benny [~benny@i577A21DC.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:51:58 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75553e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:53:53 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-77-24.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:53:53 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-118-66.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:54:44 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-77-24.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:54:48 -!- dumrat [~dumrat@112.135.193.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:57:37 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 10:02:50 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:02:50 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 10:02:50 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:05:20 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:06:03 -!- QinGW [~wangqingw@60.247.26.3] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:07:22 OliverUv [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has joined #lisp 10:10:09 -!- _8david` is now known as lichtblau 10:12:30 lanthan [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:13:01 kdas_ [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-glvskluskquodkec] has joined #lisp 10:13:31 ramkrsna_ [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-eafkybijqhibsrpu] has joined #lisp 10:13:33 kdas__ [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-btblzmtkdgpudvhf] has joined #lisp 10:13:36 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:16:04 tcr [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 10:16:08 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:17:35 -!- kdas_ [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-glvskluskquodkec] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:20:37 -!- gko [~gko@60-251-71-121.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:21:18 Is it mailman day already? gosh 10:21:52 *stassats* doesn't miss it, after turning it off everywhere 10:22:09 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:23:39 -!- Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:24:09 -!- kdas__ is now known as kushal 10:25:56 mpederse` [~user@70.90.14.154] has joined #lisp 10:26:05 Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has joined #lisp 10:26:22 time flies 10:26:34 like an arrow? 10:26:52 it was only 28 days in the previous month 10:27:10 oh, it's another month already 10:27:31 must turn off mailman day 10:27:32 yes 10:30:58 Better mailman day than mailman hour. 10:32:05 -!- Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:32:05 "the mailman always rings once a month" 10:32:30 Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has joined #lisp 10:34:02 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:35:11 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:37:44 -!- Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:38:52 Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has joined #lisp 10:38:56 -!- setmeaway [setmeaway3@118.45.149.204] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:39:49 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-147-5.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: G'bye] 10:43:50 mega1 [~user@catv4E5C915D.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 10:44:18 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 10:44:37 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-btblzmtkdgpudvhf] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:44:57 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-pfxmlcjrhwncsgcw] has joined #lisp 10:44:57 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-pfxmlcjrhwncsgcw] has quit [Changing host] 10:44:57 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 10:48:14 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 10:49:25 -!- Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:49:45 Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has joined #lisp 10:52:30 lacedaemon [59618064@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.97.128.100] has joined #lisp 10:56:46 -!- sacho [~sacho@87-126-37-121.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:58:27 dumrat pasted "how to simplify?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120079 10:59:35 don't ever use OPEN 10:59:40 unless you need to 10:59:46 clhs with-open-file 10:59:47 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_open.htm 11:00:19 dumrat [~dumrat@112.135.216.211] has joined #lisp 11:02:28 hello 11:02:29 someone help again 11:02:29 :) 11:02:44 <_3b> don't (funcall (lambda ...) ...), just write the code directly 11:02:56 minion: please tell dumrat about logs 11:02:56 dumrat: direct your attention towards logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 11:03:00 see my response there 11:03:03 <_3b> use equalp instead of (equal (string-upcase ...) (string-upcase ...)) 11:03:07 logs? 11:03:08 before you come in, stassats said "don't ever use OPEN [...] unless you need to [...] clhs with-open-file" 11:03:11 <_3b> use UNLESS instead of (if test nil ...) 11:03:22 s/come/came 11:03:22 <_3b> use WHEN instead of (if test (progn ...))) 11:03:25 koning_robot: good robot, here's a cookie 11:03:33 what logs 11:03:42 huzzah 11:03:47 <_3b> don't put ))) on a line by themselves 11:04:12 _3b: or (string-equal ... ...) 11:04:30 -!- Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:04:53 <_3b> right, string-equal if you know (or want to assert) that they are always strings 11:05:00 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:05:20 string designators, rather 11:05:40 Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has joined #lisp 11:05:40 <_3b> true 11:06:23 -!- tc [~travis@rrcs-67-78-243-170.se.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:06:58 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-118-66.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 11:07:41 -!- lacedaemon [59618064@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.97.128.100] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:08:20 tc_ [~travis@rrcs-67-78-243-170.se.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:08:58 -!- dumrat [~dumrat@112.135.216.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:09:12 <_3b> actually, those (if (null test) nil ...) would probably be better as (when test ...) instead of (unless (null test) ...) 11:09:55 <_3b> and using append to build a list in a loop will be slow if you ever need to build a large list 11:10:22 dumrat [~dumrat@112.135.214.243] has joined #lisp 11:13:55 minion: who are you? 11:13:57 why do you want to know? 11:14:01 ah 11:14:16 minion:what are your capabilities? 11:14:23 minion is clever, doesn't disclose personal information 11:14:49 minion: by the laws of robotics 11:14:50 please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 11:15:01 minion: answer me 11:15:02 does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you? 11:15:14 :( 11:15:43 how many bots are there 11:15:44 ? 11:16:30 enough 11:17:39 -!- Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:17:48 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has joined #lisp 11:18:15 Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has joined #lisp 11:22:48 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:23:22 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 11:23:25 admin 11:23:32 ADMIN 11:23:37 buh 11:24:16 AWAY not really 11:24:36 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah 11:25:12 dumrat: you're distracting 350 people. 11:25:38 my apologies, won't happen again as I just found the magic key 11:28:01 Dranik [~dim@86.57.253.61] has joined #lisp 11:28:53 yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 11:29:55 -!- Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:30:28 oudeis [~oudeis@cpe-67-255-9-80.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:31:05 Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has joined #lisp 11:33:49 nikodemus` [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:34:04 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 11:34:56 (equal (string-upcase a) (string-upcase b)) is NOT equivalent to (equalp a b). 11:36:15 I don't see anything in dumrat paste that would justify the transformat (ie that would imply that s cannot be bound to a symbol. 11:36:27 sorry 11:36:32 that was an artifact 11:36:40 dumrat: you're not at fault. 11:37:05 dumrat: the point is that in Lisp, since we don't usually specify types, typing can only be infered from the operator we use. 11:37:22 Sometimes, that means you have to do a very deep data flow analysis. 11:37:24 isn't that a bad thing? 11:37:39 No. But you have to know what you mean. 11:38:00 If you write (equal (string-upcase a) (string-upcase b)) we must infer that a or b may be bound to a symbol, a character or a string. 11:38:33 ie a = ABC and b = "abc" will give true. 11:38:39 o.O 11:38:47 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-250-34-192.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 11:38:48 If you write (equalp a b) then a and b will have to be of the same type too. 11:39:16 (equalp 'abc '|abc|) --> NIL. 11:39:28 so specifying the right operator is a way of implicitly specifying type of args 11:39:28 ? 11:39:34 Yes. 11:39:47 kk 11:39:51 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has quit [Quit: Eish] 11:40:35 For example, if you use (nth index seq), then seq can only be a list. If you use (aref seq index) then seq can only be a vector. But if you write (elt seq index) then index can be any sequence, list or vector. 11:40:37 pjb: can you tell me anything about how to improve read-field? 11:42:32 -!- dumrat [~dumrat@112.135.214.243] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:42:51 dumrat [~dumrat@112.135.214.243] has joined #lisp 11:42:52 What makes you unhappy about it? 11:43:12 -!- dumrat [~dumrat@112.135.214.243] has quit [Client Quit] 11:46:08 dumrat annotated #120079 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120079#1 11:46:28 dumrat [~dumrat@112.135.223.89] has joined #lisp 11:46:34 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-147-5.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:46:53 what is the log bot? 11:46:58 -!- froydnj [~froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:46:59 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-147-5.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:47:03 minion: logs? 11:47:03 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 11:47:09 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-147-5.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:48:01 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-147-5.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:48:11 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-147-5.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:50:30 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ynicnggqtebnaorq] has left #lisp 11:51:35 -!- Taggnostr2 [~x@dyn57-215.yok.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:52:27 waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-4d049372.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:52:27 -!- slash_ [~unknown@pD955D667.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:54:25 minion: why are there 350+ in #lisp? 11:54:26 i like lisp... i'm written in it 11:54:58 minion: (print "hi") 11:54:59 watch out, you'll make krystof angry 11:55:17 Taggnostr2 [~x@dyn57-215.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 11:56:52 -!- dumrat [~dumrat@112.135.223.89] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:57:16 dumrat [~dumrat@112.135.223.89] has joined #lisp 11:57:46 nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has joined #lisp 11:57:46 -!- nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has quit [Changing host] 11:57:46 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 12:02:24 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-180-182.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:14 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:08:28 -!- borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 12:08:39 delYsid [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 12:08:57 slash_ [~unknown@pD955AE09.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:11:49 -!- nilly [~nil@c-98-247-253-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: quit] 12:12:07 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:15:58 minion: (eval save-lisp-and-die) 12:16:00 i like lisp... i'm written in it 12:18:13 Is there someone (or something) that keeps statistics about the number of people in an IRC channel? Might be interesting to see the statistics over several years ... 12:18:38 To see the popularity trends 12:20:24 flip214 12:20:35 *splittist* fails his irc-client driving test 12:20:40 is that a zen message? 12:20:48 MoALTz [~no@92.18.80.15] has joined #lisp 12:21:30 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:21:48 flip124: but I read on teh interwebs that the lisp 'community' is really unfriendly, so presumably the number of participants in #lisp has fallen over time. Except for the increasingly self-aware bots, that is. 12:22:41 Well, I'd be happy about a simple text file with date and # of people here 12:23:20 you'll never get anywhere if you START with the evidence (: 12:23:22 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 12:23:41 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@92.18.80.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:25:09 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has joined #lisp 12:25:20 emporas [~emporas@athedsl-166184.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 12:25:53 download the logs, analyze them? 12:29:55 dumrat: you don't need a progn around the body of a when/unless 12:30:18 -!- DrForr [~drforr@pool-98-112-230-87.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:30:28 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-77-24.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:30:38 DrForr [~drforr@pool-98-112-230-87.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:30:55 mathrick: Movitz GC is/was both simple and advanced.. :) There was quite a bit of thought put into making a pluggable GC architecture. There was a simple stop-and-copy implemented. 12:30:57 dumrat: also, I would turn (unless (null (match... into (when (match... since match... is a predicate 12:31:07 stassats: on the way 12:32:29 koning_robot: even if it weren't a predicate 12:32:58 furthermore I would use first/second instead of car/cadr an probably get rid of the (when (listp... altogether (at least it looks like you want them all to be list, so you would want to get an error if one of them wasn't) 12:33:11 stassats: yeah, I guess you're right 12:33:33 you can use car and cadr only if you have a white beard 12:38:48 froydnj [~froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has joined #lisp 12:42:03 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 12:43:04 is there a eventlib thing for lisp? lige eventmachine for ruby or twisted for python. I have only stumlbed over Flez so far... 12:44:32 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:44:37 Davsebamse: there's iolib 12:44:56 antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 12:45:12 sweet galdor that looks kool! 12:45:19 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 12:46:19 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:48:18 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 12:49:37 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:53:16 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 12:54:31 frvallee [~chatzilla@magique.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 12:54:34 minion: what is koning_robot 12:54:34 maybe you need to ask my master, chandler - he knows a lot 12:57:20 Joreji [~thomas@79-125.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:58:52 konr [~user@187.106.35.228] has joined #lisp 12:58:53 minion, what is (defun) 12:58:54 maybe you need to ask my master, chandler - he knows a lot 12:59:02 clhs defun 12:59:03 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defun.htm 12:59:07 :) 12:59:35 hmm a lot of bots... 12:59:57 borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 13:00:03 not really; just a few really useful ones :) 13:00:23 he of course :-) 13:00:26 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:02:17 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:02:37 tronador_ [~guille@190.66.172.182] has joined #lisp 13:03:36 stassats: IRC logs still fetching, but where would you like the picture? 13:03:55 cannot paste binaries on paste.lisp.org - but you can have an ASCII graphic, if you like 13:04:04 wherever you want 13:05:11 -!- leifw [~leif@ool-18bac6ad.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:05:39 will still take some time ... now in May 2005. 13:06:11 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-180-182.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 13:08:17 silentbicycle [~scott@99-55-246-143.lightspeed.gdrpmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:08:17 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.66.172.182] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 13:09:13 nunb [~nundan@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 13:09:46 Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-250-34-192.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:20:45 with-locked-object or with-object-locked? 13:21:33 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 13:23:12 both! 13:23:45 LiamH [~healy@129-2-135-197.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 13:24:02 for the same purpose? 13:24:07 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 13:24:41 one expanding into another 13:25:14 -!- LiamH [~healy@129-2-135-197.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:25:16 LiamH1 [~healy@129-2-135-197.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 13:25:50 jweiss [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:25:54 -!- beach` is now known as beach 13:26:11 no style points for that 13:26:14 Good evening everyone! 13:26:48 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:28:33 Evening beach 13:29:29 with-locked-object -- it's consistent with with-open-file, etc 13:29:59 with-lock-object then? 13:30:37 mega1: for standard-objects, or structures as well? 13:30:59 -!- LiamH1 [~healy@129-2-135-197.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:31:01 LiamH [~healy@129-2-135-197.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 13:31:24 to be more consistent, it should be either with-open-file and open-file, or with-open and open 13:31:53 nikodemus: it's just a stylistic question. I could have used different names. 13:32:11 come to think of it there is also with-object-lock 13:32:30 or just with-lock? 13:33:24 that's out of scope :-) 13:33:48 without-others-messing-around 13:35:48 i think i'd prefer with-locked-object, that's how you'd say it english, unless you were to use an adverb for locked 13:35:55 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-166-161.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 13:36:21 stassats: for 2004.01 to 2006.09 see http://fsvs-software.org/lisp/lisp-nicks.png 13:36:51 pavlvs327 [pavlvs@231.56.143.24.cm.sunflower.com] has joined #lisp 13:37:33 how much is there currently? 13:37:39 i don't know how to count them in ERC 13:38:13 with-object-locked is yoda speak, which is perhaps the greatest point in its favor... 13:38:48 with-exclusivity 13:38:58 367 says xchat 13:39:05 nikodemus: if you emphasize on locked, like "with an object locked with a lock" 13:39:06 I don't think it's yoda speak. "With the hashtable locked, this peace of code is thread safe." 13:39:15 *piece 13:39:41 with-object\'s-lock-held 13:39:48 -!- _3b [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:39:51 +the 13:40:09 -!- pavlvs [pavlvs@231.56.143.24.cm.sunflower.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:40:25 can-haz-do-stuff-with-teh-locks-in-pocket 13:40:25 with conflicts with held 13:40:27 -!- ejohnson [~elliott@elliottjohnson.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:41:06 -!- _2x2l_ [~andrew@209.20.83.196] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:41:12 _2x2l [~andrew@209.20.83.196] has joined #lisp 13:41:23 ejohnson [~elliott@elliottjohnson.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:50 tronador_ [~guille@190.144.171.111] has joined #lisp 13:42:02 I wish held were also a noun to allow for more puns. 13:42:40 we can design a new lisp dialect called Held if that helps 13:42:41 Held is a hero in german 13:43:11 while it's great that Lisp programmers have, over the decades, stopped implementing every second function as a macro, and have adopted easily recognizable macro names, it's also a bit boring to call 9 out of 10 macros WITH-xyz. 13:43:23 e.g., I think LOCKING-OBJECT is a fine macro name 13:43:27 sacho [~sacho@87-126-37-121.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 13:44:41 abcl calls it synchronized-on based on the synchronized keyword in java 13:45:15 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:45:26 setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.204] has joined #lisp 13:45:27 LOCKING-OBJECT is indeed okay 13:46:32 to make it recognizable, name all macros with m- prefix, and all functions with f- 13:46:55 Whoever is king of #lisp this week shall declare that WITH-LOCKED-OBJECT is to be preferred over WITH-OBJECT-LOCKED and especially WITH-OBJECT-LOCK henceforth. 13:47:43 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:49:58 -!- jweiss [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 13:50:17 jweiss [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:50:54 -!- ramkrsna_ [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-eafkybijqhibsrpu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:51:43 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 13:53:28 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:56:13 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:56:38 -!- akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-123-094.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:57:49 lichtblau: WITH- has the advantage of being automatically highlighted/formatted by SLIME contribs, and the corresponding obviousness of expectations 13:58:09 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 14:01:19 spinna [~spin@188-195-144-169-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 14:02:48 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:04:07 pmurias [~pawel@89-72-232-106.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 14:04:07 -!- adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 14:04:19 how do i do a binary and on two numbers? 14:04:26 pmurias: logand 14:05:11 -!- rien is now known as rien|home 14:05:18 -!- rien|home [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 14:06:00 or (boole boole-and a b) 14:06:18 if you want to show your old-schoolness 14:06:31 _3b [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:06:51 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 14:07:16 (boole op a b) is better than (funcall (case op ((...) (function logand)) ...) a b) 14:08:13 Yuuhi [benni@p5483C91B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:11:25 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:12:05 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.144.171.111] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:12:07 tronador__ [~guille@190.144.171.111] has joined #lisp 14:13:28 benny [~benny@i577A3254.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:13:47 akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-123-094.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:14:43 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:54 -!- rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-218-51-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:18:52 rootzlevel [~hpd@188-195-186-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 14:19:07 how can i curry a function? i want to pass it to mapcar with the first argument already set? 14:19:42 alexandria:curry, or (lambda (x) (your-fun first-argument x)) 14:20:00 tsuru [~charlie@adsl-179-29-10.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:43 -!- jwise [~user@173-14-157-193-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:24:20 -!- nikodemus` [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:24:47 -!- xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:25:59 how to print strings and characters into output in same function? 14:26:15 print can't do that it seems 14:26:26 format 14:26:27 dumrat: Use format. 14:26:37 ok 14:26:46 princ 14:26:50 minion: clhs? 14:26:50 clhs: To look up a symbol in the HyperSpec, try saying "clhs symbol". For more information on the HyperSpec see http://www.cliki.net/CLHS . 14:27:02 minion: clhs format 14:27:02 please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 14:27:07 clhs format 14:27:07 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_format.htm 14:27:42 -!- LiamH [~healy@129-2-135-197.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:27:47 dumrat: or you could use with-output-to-string with print or princ 14:30:23 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-166-161.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Quit:    .    ...] 14:30:54 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-166-161.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 14:34:23 stassats: complete picture since 2004 at http://fsvs-software.org/lisp/lisp-nicks.png 14:35:08 -!- Jamamooga_ [~Jamamooga@74-95-42-29-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:35:16 Jamamooga_ [~Jamamooga@74-95-42-29-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:35:20 so, it's in plateau now 14:36:03 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 14:36:24 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:38:26 -!- Joreji [~thomas@79-125.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:39:19 -!- chrnybo [~user@148.122.202.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:39:29 I counted every nick each day, taking care to process nick renames 14:39:38 but perhaps there's some methodical error 14:40:09 Teeko [~Teeko@56.Red-83-39-1.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:56 flip214: and there're older logs, see http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/old/ 14:41:13 -!- akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-123-094.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:41:35 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:41:43 http://xach.com/tmp/l.html has my activity chart from long, long ago 14:42:14 -!- tronador__ [~guille@190.144.171.111] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:42:17 bhyde [~user@50.10.201.28] has joined #lisp 14:42:22 tronador_ [~guille@190.144.171.111] has joined #lisp 14:43:31 taylanub [~taylanub@p4FD94EB8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:45:17 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.144.171.111] has quit [Client Quit] 14:45:37 MoALTz_ [~no@92.18.80.15] has joined #lisp 14:45:40 Here you are ... must hurry now, bye http://fsvs-software.org/lisp/lisp-nicks.png 14:46:08 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:46:08 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:46:26 hey I thought lisp went back to 1958.. there should be more logs somewhere 14:46:44 How unfortunate, it looks like we reached a plateau in 2008. What went wrong? Why can't we have an exponential growth? 14:47:20 Arc was released 14:47:34 koning_robot: yes, but it wasn't called irc before 1988. 14:48:31 #lisp doesn't scale! 14:48:55 *rsynnott* tries desperately to avoid a cloud pun of some sort 14:49:29 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.18.80.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:51:42 chrnybo [~user@148.122.202.244] has joined #lisp 14:54:12 GeneralMaximus [~general@122.173.192.86] has joined #lisp 14:55:45 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.75.217] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:56:13 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.78.250] has joined #lisp 14:57:04 how does he define a "unique nick" ? 14:57:25 akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-123-094.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:57:49 and any idea why there is such a boom of activity ? 14:58:18 because there was a drop just before it 14:58:21 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-oqpquwunigagqdzx] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:58:22 necromancy is becoming popular 14:58:33 (ignore the first question, i have to update my English modules) 14:58:43 taylanub: the general theory is that the increase of power of the processors let to that increase of popularity of lisp in the early 21st century. 14:59:05 That general theory is news to me. 14:59:19 is that, by any chance, a joke ? 14:59:54 Not at all. Think about it. There are also other data points (Ruby, Python and so on). 15:00:20 -!- rien|work is now known as rien 15:00:24 but i thought lisp is already efficient (if done right) 15:00:33 My guess would be more along the lines of Paul Graham's essays, Practical Common Lisp, and lately, Land of Lisp. 15:01:26 preyalone: patch for QuickLisp/FEB2011 for BORDEAUX-THREADS ABCL: http://slack.net/~evenson/abcl/quicklisp-bordeaux-threads-abcl-20110301a.diff 15:01:29 Apart from the parentheses the most often voiced complain was that lisp (and others) were slow. It's hard to argue that when you cannot see the difference between a C program running in one millionth of a second, and a lisp program doing the same running in one thousandth of a second. 15:01:38 PCL came very late. 15:01:52 The causality is inversed, it's because of that boom that PCL was written. 15:02:03 gigamonkey is a smart guy. 15:02:28 it might have been smarter if he had done it just before that boom 15:02:43 -!- TDT` is now known as TDT 15:02:44 i didn't know PCL is new 15:03:03 Luckier perhaps. I don't think anything could let to predict it. 15:03:07 taylanub: Good thing, because it is not. 15:03:21 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:03:42 "Copyright © 2003-2009, Peter Seibel" 15:03:45 Publisher: Apress; 1 edition (April 11, 2005) 15:04:17 PCL is still one of my favorite books..I need to really read LoL though, bought it..just haven't read it yet. 15:04:32 So when he started to write it, the #lisp attendance had already more than doubled in the last three years. 15:04:42 *taylanub* yells "K&R!" and runs away 15:05:29 I joined #lisp because of Paul Graham, but stayed for the warm, intelligent, on-topic discussion. 15:05:41 PCL is kinda why I came here :) well..kinda, in a way..I think I came here first before getting PCL, but stayed here after PCL. Wish I could use lisp more in my work, though. 15:06:04 (setf foo 12) creates a dynamic foo variable? 15:06:13 no 15:06:14 Xach: so how about those mets *tries to toss the conversation a bit* 15:06:28 pmurias: it flies dragons out of your nose. 15:06:47 -!- redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:06:51 why does it work in clisp? 15:07:00 *Xach* hopes Mets fans are enjoying Jason Bay's contract, production--hey, wait a minute! that's not Lisp. 15:07:36 heh 15:07:45 pmurias: defvar and company create a variable. Just because it works in your implementation doesn't mean it's right :) 15:08:07 most lisps will have the good grace to emit a warning 15:08:25 pmurias: I guess because the developers of clisp weren't good enough to have the computer generate a virus to fly up your nose, and grow a dragon in there. 15:08:29 why do i get an "undefined variable: foo" warning when i do (setq foo bar) ? 15:08:34 pmurias: Makes following your code harder if you don't defvar or let it or something as well. Dynamic variables aren't...evil, well kinda evil sometimes, lends itself to typos if not careful. 15:08:39 oh defvar 15:08:45 ITYM SBCL is annoying enough to emit a warning, and CMUCL is the only one to actually get it wrong. 15:09:01 (optionally at least) 15:09:04 TDT: i'm using that in generated code 15:09:15 urandom__ [~user@p548A5DBB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:06 dlowe: Yeah, no lisps emit a warning except SBCL and CMUCL. 15:10:31 Now, if you phrased it "The most popular lisp(s) emit a warning"... 15:11:35 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:11:54 -!- jweiss [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:12:04 pmurias: generally, there's no point in using setf at the REPL. Just use (let ((foo 12)) (+ foo foo)) ; it's easy to do so, when you use emacs. 15:12:16 jweiss [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:12:52 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.211.120] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:12:54 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:12:56 *TDT* feels dirty for using global variables all the time while in the REPL for easier debugging of state 15:12:59 anyone know a small clean emacs implementation ? 15:13:49 taylanub: ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/emacs/emacs-23.2.1.tar.gz -- small (8 MB) and clean (mostly written in lisp, with a VM implemented in C). 15:14:05 the more you resist, the more it hurts. 15:14:35 what i'm using globals is that i'm compiling code is i'm compiling code (from Perl 6) that uses constants that are stored in variables filled in at program initialisation time with the result of some functions) 15:14:48 hrmm, the one in the archlinux repos comes with too much bloat i guess. it's a 100MB install 15:15:08 Ignore the bloat, the core of gnu emacs is microscopic by today standards. 15:15:20 Xach: Most lisps (that I use) 15:15:24 dlowe: even better 15:15:27 it distracts so much 15:15:33 taylanub: you an launch it as: emacs -q ; to avoid loading unwanted stuff. 15:15:35 taylanub: One option is to get over it. 15:15:38 -!- hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:15:57 xan_ [~xan@26.61.17.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 15:16:01 taylanub: if you're not using those megabytes, they're just going to waste 15:16:04 hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:05 pmurias: if they're numeric or symbolic constants, you can use (defconstant +name+ value) 15:16:24 not to mention it depends on gconf ... 15:16:25 pmurias: if they're other kind of constants, you may use (defparameter *name* value). 15:16:34 pmurias: Hmm, you're actually trying to tie in lisp and perl? I'd be interested in learning how you did that. 15:16:42 tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has joined #lisp 15:16:43 "badly" 15:16:48 i'm compiling Perl 6 to lisp 15:17:01 i haven't done any integration yet 15:17:05 pmurias: beware defconstant for interactive development. Using defparameter +name+ may be better until you need to absolutely make sure the value isn't changed, and you're not interested in changing it during development anymore. 15:17:06 taylanub: you can also just type: wget ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/emacs/emacs-23.2.1.tar.gz ; tar zxvf emacs-23.2.1.tar.gz ; cd emacs-23.2.1 ; ./configure && make && make install 15:17:16 taylanub: and have a clean emacs up and running in three minutes. 15:17:35 pmurias: Hmm...I can't say i know anything about perl 6..but you're trying to compile a perl library and make the functions available from within Lisp? 15:17:37 taylanub: Grab the PKGBUILD, and minimize it according to pjb's suggestion. :) 15:17:37 is that 8 MB download size or installed size ? 15:18:16 i'm looking at the emacs-bzr package in the AUR at the moment... 15:18:21 8 MB is the size of the bare executable. 15:18:32 The tarball is around 37 MB. 15:18:51 sykopomp taylanub: The emacs-nw or something like that, from arch, doesn't have the X stuff built in and is pretty minimal. 15:18:57 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:06 errrr 8 MB executable ... 15:19:12 Microscopic! 15:19:15 ^ 15:19:26 community/emacs-nox <-- that's the exact package 15:19:31 Nowadays, the smallest executables are at least 50 MB if not 100 MB. (eg. Firefox, openoffice, etc). 15:19:47 well if you consider it being an IDE (or ... OS), it's microscopic i guess 15:20:15 it has a loads of .elc files 15:20:15 I'm not sure Firefox or OpenOffice qualifies as "smallest"... 15:20:18 pjb: that's probably with their layout engines compiled in ? 15:20:26 taylanub: My guess is you have at least 100+Gb of disk space...I wouldn't really worry about executable disk space. 15:20:34 Hexstream: what other program is used? 15:20:42 taylanub: are you running on 20 year old hardware? 15:20:50 i'm running an atom eeepc 15:20:51 *pjb* is ordering two 2TB HD this week... 15:21:00 slyrus: you here? 15:21:03 taylanub: Is that 20 year old hardware? 15:21:03 slyrus: I need to know how the directory structure inside /Library/Frameworks/QtCore.framework/Headers looks 15:21:07 pjb: All those executables you don't invoke directly? ;P 15:21:12 i do notice significant slowness from Java and SBCL 15:21:20 (using stumpwm) 15:21:31 emacs is smaller than both of those. 15:21:42 yet you're willing to install both a jre, and SBCL? 15:21:53 i need it for i2p :( 15:21:59 the only implementation is in Java 15:23:03 taylanub: So my guess solid state drive..I have a MBA, similar issue. But with a netbook, i can see your concern. I have 60Gb of solid state here..my guess is you have something like 6 or whatever, as I recall. 15:23:13 I'm sure you'll survive with an 8mb executable, and I'm sure your eeepc can fit a 40mb tarball in its hard drive. 15:23:43 TDT: nah, it's a normal hdd. isn't SSD faster, actually ? 15:23:51 -!- slash_ [~unknown@pD955AE09.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:23:55 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 15:24:18 -!- mpederse` is now known as mpedersen 15:24:28 emacs isn't only an executable, it's more than 8mb 15:24:51 for some time my default operating system was one on a cheap flash stick. i noticed slowdown on IO-intensive things when i switched to this netbook. (and yes the stick started to die pretty quick; the OS was not a special design but a fairly normal archlinux) 15:24:53 Right, but if you want it small and clean, you can erase all the rest, and still edit text. 15:25:04 It's a funny experience: emacs -Q 15:25:39 *taylanub* will compile emacs-bzr now 15:25:41 -!- jkantz [~jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:25:52 TDT: i'm trying to make Perl 6 code compile to lisp and run on top of sbcl 15:26:08 is perl6 "ready" ? 15:26:11 cheezus [~Adium@76-10-163-32.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 15:26:15 "No" 15:26:24 "yes" 15:26:33 -!- Tordek [~tordek@2001:470:dc50:b0::21] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:26:35 taylanub: for playing with it yes 15:26:40 for serious work no 15:26:41 minion: is perl 6 "ready"? 15:26:42 maybe 15:27:00 minion, the smart bot! 15:27:00 i'm not a bot. i prefer the term ``electronically composed''. 15:27:17 minion: perl 6 is not ready for real work. 15:27:17 Would you /please/ stop playing with me? 3 messages in 35 seconds is too many. 15:27:21 I remember there was already some perl6-subset compiler to CL and other languages, "perlito" or something like that. 15:27:29 minion, the semi-intelligen electronically composed person, then! 15:28:00 perlito supports a tiny subset, but it translates to a lot of languages 15:28:52 taylanub: Yeah, ssd is much faster. Although the disk space available is....limited. but if you have a normal disk, I wouldn't worry too much about disk space...I think those come with 120gigs. 15:29:00 -!- mpedersen [~user@70.90.14.154] has left #lisp 15:29:52 perl 6 is almost a convoluted lisp. but they have yet to rediscover some features :O 15:29:55 i have 160 GBs. i'll split it apart a bit some time, and install interesting stuff like plan9, minix, and whatnot 15:30:00 (slow and steady) 15:30:31 Quadrescence: what features are missing? 15:30:41 Joreji [~thomas@79-125.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:30:43 pmurias: nice syntax 15:31:00 i'm guessing emacs needs libcroco and librsvg for the GUI ? 15:31:32 only if you want to display svgs, but that's off-topic, try #emacs instead 15:33:25 -!- mgindulescu [~mircea@nat/nokia/x-gurucelmapnsehvz] has left #lisp 15:33:29 #lisp is the 40th most crowded channel on freenode 15:33:50 how crowded is the #1 channel? :) 15:33:57 #ubuntu I bet 15:33:58 #lisp is 25 participants, 335 bots 15:34:09 probably with 2500 participants 15:34:10 yup, #ubuntu 15:34:21 stassats: have you actually looked at Perl 6 or are you basing your opinion on Perl 5? 15:34:34 1528 for #ubuntu 15:34:40 pmurias: i did, but that's off-topic 15:34:41 pmurias: you know perl 6's syntax is no better than 5's 15:35:22 let's start a language war! 15:35:31 I like language X better! 15:35:40 ok i will start: lisp is slow and only good for AI 15:35:47 ehu: I think EndSection is a little verbose 15:36:08 Xach: i wouldn't say all the people not talking are bots :) maybe just lurkers. 15:36:36 dlowe: that's a programming language? 15:36:44 Xach: I told minion to tell you yesterday thanks for the thanks but minion refused. So I'll tell you: thanks for the thanks. :) 15:36:51 dlowe: Isn't that visual basic or something? 15:36:56 what perl6 implementation is good? pugs ? 15:37:03 Quadrescence: double-welcome! 15:37:06 -!- snorble [~snorble@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:37:08 ehu: it's a GUI protocol for unix :p 15:37:11 taylanub: this is #lisp, not #perl 15:37:22 why are you talking about perl then? :P 15:37:26 Quadrescence: http://paste.lisp.org/display/120084 has the code that generated it 15:37:26 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-118-66.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:37:57 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:38:18 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 15:38:29 I can't find a concurrency oriented channel, so you'll have to bear with me. Is STM just screwed if you need to do user interaction in the middle of a transaction? 15:38:31 Xach: only a true lisper makes cards with lisp and not gimp/photoshop/illustrator 15:39:14 mega1: how would that happen? 15:39:32 snorble [~snorble@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 15:39:33 as opposed to other methods of blocking. 15:39:40 signal an error that invokes a debugger 15:39:53 #proglangdesign Program.ming Language Design - discussing program.ming languages designs, especially new/radical ideas and new/lesser known languages. Old topics: type systems, memory management, parallel program.ming, concurrency, and implementation issues. Discussed: Python, Scala, Clojure, Radix, Haskell/Clean/CAL. This channel is not for general - or specific - program.ming questions 15:39:58 other forms of synchronization are just as screwed. 15:40:21 Quadrescence: thanks, I'll drop by 15:40:36 but I guess it's relevant to lisp. 15:40:49 mega1: I'd be interested in finding out the answer! :) 15:41:08 think about getting conflicts when using a package 15:41:10 -!- Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:41:39 in all likelihood the lisp is holding a lock and it needs to interact with the user to know how to continue 15:41:53 Any bright ideas on how this could be done? 15:41:55 taylanub: ask at #perl6 - #perl is not for Perl 6 either 15:42:19 i see 15:43:01 mega1: wouldn't an MVCC system just accept user input, fail the ongoing transaction, and try again? 15:43:07 taylanub: OT: rakudo 15:44:14 sykopomp: fail the transaction first, accept input and try again remembering the input in this order? 15:44:54 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 15:45:07 mega1: possibly? I think it's supposed to depend on how a particular STM implementation works. 15:46:01 remembering the resolution and being able to decide whether it's relevant in the next run is a good idea 15:47:32 myu2 [~myu2@x108121.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 15:48:23 -!- Teeko [~Teeko@56.Red-83-39-1.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:48:29 Spion__ [~spion@77.29.250.12] has joined #lisp 15:50:24 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.204] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:51:59 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:52:29 morning 15:52:31 setmeaway [setmeaway3@118.45.149.204] has joined #lisp 15:52:54 there he is! 15:53:02 you're needed on #kde-bindings 15:53:43 lichtblau: I'm going to have to reinstall the nokia qt lib and remove the macports version 15:53:46 happy to do so 15:54:32 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-38-142-34.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:17 cool. I think you also need to pull and rebuild the generator to get the newest and latest. 15:56:20 OK, won't happen until tonight though 16:01:59 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 16:03:43 pevaneyn [~pevaneyn@77.109.100.142] has joined #lisp 16:05:16 ammarr [~ammar@CPE485b39e80c04-CM000a7365c908.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:06:11 lichtblau: how does commonqt and cl-smoke compare these days? 16:07:12 milanj [~milanj_@109-93-62-247.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 16:07:44 -!- leo2007 [~leo@120.37.103.176] has quit [Quit: reboot] 16:08:16 mega1: I don't know. Still different technical design goals. Still different license. cl-smoke is probably still more featureful. It speaks for CommonQt that it has attracted additional developers, I think. 16:10:03 -!- Davsebamse [~das@94.127.50.104] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:10:19 -!- ammarr [~ammar@CPE485b39e80c04-CM000a7365c908.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:10:43 and stabilitiwise? 16:12:18 daniel__ [~daniel@p5082B72E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:52 corruptmemory [~jim@96.246.167.18] has joined #lisp 16:15:03 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:15:24 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:15:38 -!- daniel_ [~daniel@p5B326BE2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:17:44 -!- twem2_ [~tristan@puma-mxisp.mxtelecom.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:20:36 jikanter [~jordan@66.146.192.40] has joined #lisp 16:23:18 twem2 [~tristan@puma-mxisp.mxtelecom.com] has joined #lisp 16:23:45 ammarr [~ammar@CPE485b39e80c04-CM000a7365c908.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:24:37 -!- cheezus [~Adium@76-10-163-32.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:24:51 mega1: the tricky bits are "almost but not yet entirely" correct 16:24:57 *lichtblau* needs more time for this 16:25:43 /think 16:27:02 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:07 Rukowen [~Rukowen@123.20.9.122] has joined #lisp 16:29:56 ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 16:33:33 Teeko [~Teeko@171.Red-81-35-139.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:19 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:37:59 -!- setmeaway [setmeaway3@118.45.149.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:38:56 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 16:40:01 aerique [310225@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 16:40:46 -!- jikanter [~jordan@66.146.192.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:40:58 -!- aerique [310225@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 16:41:16 lacedaemon [~root@89-97-128-100.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:42:37 krfs [~jonata@189-16-43-233.cte.net.br] has joined #lisp 16:46:22 -!- Dranik [~dim@86.57.253.61] has quit [Quit:     (xchat 2.4.5  )] 16:49:59 tobik [~tobik@p4FCBE9C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:15 -!- abend` is now known as abend 16:55:12 -!- e-user [~akahl@192.100.120.41] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:56:34 Bronsa [~brace@host235-175-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:56:57 gozoner [~ebg@64.134.233.84] has joined #lisp 16:57:58 alama [~alama@193.137.143.157] has joined #lisp 16:59:29 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:00:56 -!- alama [~alama@193.137.143.157] has quit [Client Quit] 17:01:26 -!- ammarr [~ammar@CPE485b39e80c04-CM000a7365c908.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:02:18 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:02:31 beach: pbm, pgm and ppm support is checked in 17:03:13 -!- Jamamooga_ [~Jamamooga@74-95-42-29-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:05:05 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 17:05:38 yvdriess [~Beef@83.101.33.2] has joined #lisp 17:07:02 tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has joined #lisp 17:08:35 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:08:37 bongy [~bongy@host132-7-dynamic.246-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:09:50 felideon [~felideon@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:56 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 17:10:47 well I found the function 'parse-integer' but how do I use it? 17:11:07 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 17:11:22 When I use it in my code it causes an error 17:11:34 dumrat: (parse-integer "3") 17:11:58 :S 17:12:02 -!- gozoner [~ebg@64.134.233.84] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:12:10 gozoner [~ebg@64.134.233.84] has joined #lisp 17:12:25 does it return a list? 17:12:32 clhs parse-integer 17:12:32 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_parse_.htm 17:12:33 it shows two values 17:14:57 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.34.61.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:16:06 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:17:06 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-112-241.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 17:18:12 dumrat: lisp functions can return more than one value 17:18:34 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 17:19:31 also, lisp functions tend to be documented. and said documentation really wants to be read off-line. as do the books people must have already recommended to you here 17:22:08 -!- andreer [andreer@flode.pvv.ntnu.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:30:31 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@83.101.33.2] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:34:11 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483C91B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:34:56 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:35:15 -!- xan_ [~xan@26.61.17.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:35:56 -!- hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has left #lisp 17:36:40 -!- nunb [~nundan@121.243.225.226] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:37:11 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:37:38 nunb [~nundan@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 17:39:35 -!- akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-123-094.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:41:17 -!- lacedaemon [~root@89-97-128-100.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:44:02 sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:48 -!- pmurias [~pawel@89-72-232-106.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:49:52 andreer [andreer@flode.pvv.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 17:49:59 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-97-16.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:51:35 prgmctan [~prgmctan@66-188-255-135.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:52:15 -!- housel` is now known as housel 17:53:13 yvdriess [~Beef@83.101.33.2] has joined #lisp 17:53:14 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-247-57.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 17:53:57 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-67-150.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:53:58 pabst [~anonymous@208.74.177.139.static.etheric.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:15 -!- Rukowen [~Rukowen@123.20.9.122] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:54:57 -!- pabst is now known as awesome-o 17:55:24 -!- awesome-o [~anonymous@208.74.177.139.static.etheric.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:55:31 pavelludiq [57f63ac1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 17:55:42 awesome-o [~anonymous@208.74.177.139.static.etheric.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:06 nate_ [42bcff87@gateway/web/freenode/ip.66.188.255.135] has joined #lisp 17:57:08 davazp [~user@201.Red-88-6-204.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:23 hi, does anybody here know about CNF? 17:57:59 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host235-175-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:58:01 tenawa [~user@adsl-75-53-123-94.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:06 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-67-150.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:58:07 minion: lisppaste 17:58:07 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 17:58:21 Bronsa [~brace@host235-175-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:58:27 nate_: depends on what you mean by CNF 17:58:39 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host235-175-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 17:58:39 minion: what does CNF stand for? 17:58:40 Catgut Northeasternmost Fetticus 17:58:46 koning_robot: conjunctive normal form 17:58:48 actually it doesn't depend on that 17:59:28 so what about it? 18:00:16 I'm wondering how you convert (A && B) to cnf 18:00:34 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@83.101.33.2] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:00:40 *stassats* doesn't see the lisp connection 18:01:31 it's already in CNF 18:01:45 oh, I see 18:01:51 I just got it, thanks 18:02:20 uh, ok, no problem 18:02:57 vilsonvieira [~vilson@201.22.83.150.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 18:03:33 -!- vilsonvieira [~vilson@201.22.83.150.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Client Quit] 18:06:46 -!- spinna [~spin@188-195-144-169-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:07:01 -!- Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:07:05 -!- jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:07:23 Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has joined #lisp 18:07:50 HG` [~HG@dslb-092-073-070-223.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:53 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-51-60.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:14:53 enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-76-245-62-252.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:15:07 quodlibetor [~user@75.103.38.110] has joined #lisp 18:15:11 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440909.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:15:25 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:17:33 -!- Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:18:02 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 18:20:37 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442934.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 18:20:57 -!- Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:21:23 fantazo [~fantazo@178-190-234-172.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 18:22:02 akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-123-094.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:22:12 Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has joined #lisp 18:26:49 Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-tkerlgtyzxpgddth] has joined #lisp 18:28:30 tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has joined #lisp 18:29:12 -!- Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:29:36 Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has joined #lisp 18:29:36 -!- GeneralMaximus [~general@122.173.192.86] has quit [Quit: And we said: look at that fucker dance.] 18:31:22 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.78.250] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:31:50 lemoinem [~swoog@72-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:00 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:33:45 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:35:25 Bronsa [~brace@host235-175-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:35:48 cheezus [~Adium@76-10-163-32.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 18:36:12 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:55 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.40.40.48.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:38:49 yvdriess [~Beef@83.101.33.2] has joined #lisp 18:39:50 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-183-84.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:40:13 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@83.101.33.2] has quit [Client Quit] 18:40:29 aiee, commonqt's use of symlinks is causing me some delete-directory-tree anguish. 18:40:44 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-183-84.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:40:50 nate_: well, it depends on what meaning you give to &&. If it's C or C++ &&, then a && b means (t=a?t:b), and this is not something that can be put in cnf AFAIK. 18:41:04 Xach: for .SOs? 18:41:28 yeah 18:42:17 that's what qmake does 18:42:23 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:42:24 *Xach* wonders if this is going to screw him up on all 8 implementations 18:42:25 that's what _Unix_ does 18:42:25 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:38 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-128-138.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:43:04 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:43:48 stupid CL file abstraction. :( 18:43:49 i.e., you should have the same problem with libfixposix if you're planning to cover it 18:44:00 -!- HG` [~HG@dslb-092-073-070-223.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:44:13 Was hoping not to. 18:44:21 What kind of anguish? 18:44:58 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:45:12 p_l|backup: semantics of CL directory and truenames and symlinks mean i need an extra-standard means to get a list of things to delete when i want to remove a directory 18:45:22 yes, you do 18:45:30 DIRECTORY returns truenames, which will resolve symlinks 18:45:37 -!- nate_ [42bcff87@gateway/web/freenode/ip.66.188.255.135] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:45:45 I thought I could get away with it because of asdf's out-of-source-tree cache scheme. 18:45:47 means you might end up deleting stuff outside the directory tree or similar horribleness 18:46:09 I thought I wouldn't need full generality since I am creating all the files and directories from within CL in the first place. 18:46:11 Xach: do you already have support for calling native programs? 18:46:19 perhaps commonqt could be adapted for saving .so where asdf saves fasls 18:46:21 I could turn the #-(or mswindows windows win32) into #-(or mswindows windows win32 quicklisp) for you if it helps. 18:46:22 p_l|backup: To the extent that ASDF supports it. 18:46:25 except for files that aren't created by cl (: 18:46:30 Only an option on impls with a linkage table equivalent. 18:46:59 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:47:11 Xach: just call POSIX commands... the only platform that supports symlinks and doesn't stock them by default is windows 18:47:15 I really think impls should just say screw the standard and get rid of the symlink-resolving part of directory 18:47:18 -!- jso [~user@wsip-70-164-99-62.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:47:24 jso` [~user@wsip-70-164-99-62.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:32 that's gotta be the lamest behavior ever for a dir list function 18:47:41 p_l|backup: That's a last-resort concept for me. 18:48:00 personally I think there should be a cltl3 that would include such bits... 18:48:45 Don't most impls support by-passing it? I think it's only cl-fad that aims at easy portability by being content with truenames. 18:49:02 lichtblau: afaict, sbcl doesn't 18:49:03 p_l|backup: nah, just let those parts of CL fall into disuse and let iolib take over 18:49:06 lichtblau: I'll find out. 18:49:22 sbcl has :resolve-symlinks keyword 18:49:24 antifuchs: sbcl does. :resolve-symlinks nil. 18:49:26 defaulted to T 18:49:29 oh 18:49:30 nice 18:49:41 I didn't know that. sweet. 18:49:45 does anyone know of an implementation of the Expectation-Maximisation algorithm in CL? 18:50:00 and so does Clozure 18:50:36 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:50:41 and clisp, Allegro has :follow-symbolic-links 18:50:46 http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/SBCL <-- tee hee, I vote for Space-Based Chemical Laser 18:50:49 Xach: so is this deletion step happening on the user's system? 18:52:27 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-183-84.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:52:39 Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 18:53:07 mathrick: which is illegal these days 18:53:22 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:53:23 what's worse, it might make Russian's reactivate their R-36orb 18:53:28 ^_- 18:53:40 p_l|backup: I'll be perfectly happy with an EM implementation in that case 18:54:47 (there's an international ban on orbital weaponry in Solar System, and possibly outside. I think it might be unclear on warships, but they later on made it so that R-36orb got delegalized in '83) 18:55:23 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:56:32 sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:00 bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.208.236] has joined #lisp 18:58:08 antifuchs: see also sb-impl::map-directory 18:58:30 lichtblau: yes. 18:59:28 *Xach* already has a GF called DIRECTORY-ENTRIES, just thought he could get away with a couple very simple methods 19:00:08 stassats: ccl and allegro are easy because they ship with a function that deletes a directory tree already 19:00:20 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-190-234-172.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:00:22 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has left #lisp 19:00:34 -!- jso` is now known as jso 19:00:51 (describe 'sb-ext:delete-directory) 19:01:22 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:43 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:04:00 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:04:06 cl-fad:delete-directory-and-files works too 19:04:25 dlowe: does it reliably not follow symlinks? 19:04:41 haven't looked 19:04:58 that's Xach's issue, as far as i understand 19:05:19 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.208.236] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:06:37 maybe Xach should just use his awesome position as the Quicklisp God to strongarm all the remaining implementations into offering ext:delete-directory with &key recursive 19:06:37 as I read it, it does follow symlinks 19:07:01 billitch [~billitch@62.201.142.84] has joined #lisp 19:07:28 dlowe: the issue is *not* following them 19:07:36 that is, that's what Xach wants 19:10:37 p_l|backup: Russia still can't afford it. the Chinese might be happy to take the tech off their hands for a minimal fee. 19:11:00 -!- emporas [~emporas@athedsl-166184.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:11:25 -!- gozoner [~ebg@64.134.233.84] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 19:12:56 (cffi:foreign-funcall "system" :string (format nil "rm -rf ~A" dir) :int) ; the dirty option 19:16:20 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:16:38 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-67-150.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:16:57 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 19:17:07 yay, from symlink problem to space-in-filename problem 19:17:31 red1ynx [~red1ynx@178.120.11.254] has joined #lisp 19:17:31 how could this ever go wrong (-: 19:18:05 -!- parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:18:05 -!- mpereira [~murilo@201.82.50.37] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:18:06 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@cpe-67-255-9-80.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:18:16 that doesn't follow symlinks, either 19:18:35 parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:46 dlowe: that is the desired behavior! 19:19:08 dlowe: a delete-directory-recursively implemented using standard CL:DIRECTORY will. 19:20:04 -!- konr [~user@187.106.35.228] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:20:26 okay, I thought that was a highly suspect desire myself, but... 19:20:34 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@124-148-191-172.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 19:20:49 consider this: user creates a directory tree with a symlink to /etc/passwd 19:21:02 Adamant: I wouldn't be so sure... they have still some R-36MUTTH in service, and the main difference with R-36orb was the payload... which would be much easier to build today 19:21:07 admin chooses to (ql:delete-project ...) #| contrived example, but... |# 19:21:13 ouchies all around. 19:21:15 konr [~user@187.106.35.228] has joined #lisp 19:22:12 p_l|backup: realistically, the US isn't as much of a threat to Russia right now as their crazy -stan neighbors, vodka addiction, and China. 19:23:07 it seams to be a threat for on-topic discussions in #lisp 19:23:56 unless we put Lisp on the missiles? 19:24:06 I submit that the primary threat to that is within 19:24:52 -!- nunb [~nundan@121.243.225.226] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:25:17 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o antifuchs 19:25:29 *antifuchs* opens ballistic missile silos 19:25:33 go ahead 19:25:48 you mean CLOS? 19:28:31 I'm just thinking that if you wanted to submit a patch to not follow symlinks while walking, cl-fad would be the place 19:28:47 *p_l|backup* hopes that if he ends up working in a certain place, he will manage to persuade the buyers to allow Lisp and actually fund licenses (probably LW, though) 19:28:52 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-67-150.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:29:00 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 19:29:09 p_l|backup: add me as your referral :p 19:29:50 or you can fund SBCL development instead 19:30:56 dlowe: heh. Do you use LW? 19:34:16 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75553e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:35:07 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 19:35:30 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@92.18.80.15] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:35:59 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442934.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:36:07 MoALTz [~no@92.18.80.15] has joined #lisp 19:38:25 mpereira [~murilo@201.82.50.37] has joined #lisp 19:40:31 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:41:13 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279634040.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:42:16 -!- fihi09` [~user@pool-71-190-69-241.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:42:32 fihi09` [~user@pool-71-190-69-241.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:31 js0000 [~js@67.208.188.68] has joined #lisp 19:44:14 -!- npoektop [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has quit [Read error: Connection 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[~dim@109.126.160.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:51:52 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:52:24 emporas [~emporas@athedsl-166184.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 20:53:35 Davsebamse [~davse@94.127.49.1] has joined #lisp 20:55:27 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-38-142-34.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:55:52 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-38-142-34.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:21 gozoner [~ebg@ip68-6-68-92.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:58 -!- Joreji [~thomas@79-125.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:58:29 -!- La0fer [~Laofers1@64.120.233.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:59:56 -!- mega1 [~user@catv4E5C915D.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:02:36 Too quite here; francogrex will break the silence! 21:03:02 just kidding, actually have another loop question: http://paste.lisp.org/display/120097 21:05:57 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:06:02 -!- ZabaQ1 is now known as ZabaQ 21:06:05 why does it print (0 0) s ? i thought it wouldn't output anything at all in such situations? 21:06:46 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has left #lisp 21:08:13 carlocci [~nes@93.37.218.211] has joined #lisp 21:09:04 gabnet [~gabnet@252.63.193-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:30 -!- felideon [~felideon@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has left #lisp 21:09:55 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-38-142-34.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:11:11 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host235-175-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:11:59 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@96.246.167.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:12:07 Printing 0 for the sum makes sense. Don't know about the max, though. I would have expected something like negative infinity or something like that. 21:13:08 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:14:49 Spec says maximizing value is unspecified if the maximize clause is never executed. 21:15:23 npoektop [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 21:15:53 rtoym: so it has to print something anyway then... why is the sum executed? 21:17:07 or is the variable sum1 set to zero by default when the condition is not met? 21:17:19 The spec doesn't say what happens if the summing clause isn't executed, but 0 makes perfect sense since its the additive identity. 21:19:38 bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.215.41] has joined #lisp 21:20:07 oudeis [~oudeis@64.134.47.106] has joined #lisp 21:20:24 -!- Davsebamse [~davse@94.127.49.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:23:03 -!- Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:23:16 cincon [~jon@p5B095272.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:22 -!- red1ynx [~red1ynx@178.120.11.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:23:32 Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has joined #lisp 21:24:03 |Wolf|2| [~x@dyn57-215.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 21:24:12 -!- Taggnostr2 [~x@dyn57-215.yok.fi] has quit [Quit: Switching to single-player mode.] 21:24:14 -!- |Wolf|2| [~x@dyn57-215.yok.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 21:25:01 Ah, but if you say "maximize j into max1 of-type fixnum", cmucl, at least, will print out "(0 -536870912)". That is, the max value when the clause is not executed it the most negative fixnum, which makes sense. 21:25:06 Taggnostr2 [~x@dyn57-215.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 21:26:06 oh man, cmucl's reader is really fscked 21:26:11 lol 21:26:25 it can't find it's own package ? 21:26:36 where does intl:: come from ? 21:26:39 What's the problem? 21:26:51 rtoym: Since you've been looking at the LOOP spec, does it say anything about whether it's legal to use the current maximum value in loop body expressions? 21:27:22 reb`: Don't know. The loop spec is pretty big and rather under specified. 21:27:26 That is (loop for ... maximize foo into bar do ... bar ...) 21:27:28 i just got the cvs source from it, and tried to compile, and the first thing is a stupid error about "INTL" not found or so and a reader error 21:27:38 yeah, that's what I figured ... 21:27:43 -!- prip [~foo@host129-120-dynamic.53-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:28:03 tried to change the reader-case to downcase but no go again 21:28:08 homie: Do you know how to compile cmucl? I'm betting you don't, since I just made the 2011-03 snapshots earlier today. 21:28:45 rtoym: yes src/tools/create-target.sh blah, src/tools/build-world.sh blah first steps 21:29:08 -!- ASau [~user@93-80-218-22.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:29:10 Hmm. What are you using to build with? 21:29:18 rtoym: debians cmucl 21:29:51 is it that the cvs version has a package which the older debian has not ? 21:30:08 homie: What version of the sources? What version of debian cmucl? They need to be fairly close unless you know what you're doing. 21:30:09 and is it that the debian cmucl does look it up in it's own lib ? 21:30:23 ahha 21:30:28 ok i think they are not close 21:30:29 wait 21:30:40 reb`: From CLHS 6.1.3: "If the maximize or minimize clause is never executed, the accumulated value is unspecified. The argument var accumulates the maximum or minimum value; if var is supplied, loop does not return the maximum or minimum automatically. The var argument is bound as if by the construct with." 21:31:03 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.215.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:31:14 clhs 6.1.2.2 for WITH. 21:31:17 python 1.1, PCL 2008, Unicode 1.5 version 5.1.0 21:31:48 homie: No other version number? That's not enough to figure out the cmucl version. 21:32:33 oh ok 20a unicode version it is 21:32:57 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:11 reb`: Given that INTO disables returning of values by default, it would be nonsensical if you couldn't access the value from the INTO variable: You'd accumulate a value that can then never be accessed in any way! 21:33:41 zac314159 [~user@c-68-84-149-234.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:35:29 homie: 20a. I'll have to look to see when the intl package was added. But in any case, building current cvs with 20a will be, uh, difficult. 21:36:00 -!- Ragnaroek [5b0c5181@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.12.81.129] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:36:16 hehehe 21:36:27 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:37:08 ok 21:37:43 -!- npoektop [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:37:58 jwdunne [~jwdunne@cpc1-ward9-2-0-cust148.10-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:39:54 tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 21:40:09 prip [~foo@host168-126-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 21:41:08 Hi, I'm pretty new to Common Lisp and I was just playing around with macros. Basically, I'm trying to redefine the + function for fun. However, I'm given an error. I'm obviously missing something big here so is it possible someone can not outright give me the answer but, hrm, help me towards the answer I'm looking for (in an effort not to be spoon fed)? 21:41:50 homie: If you want the latest cmucl, I'd say either grab the 2011-02 binaries (and build current cvs with that) or wait a few hours and grab the 2011-03 binaries. 21:41:54 jwdunne: use paste.lisp.org to show what happens 21:42:09 -!- tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:42:32 Already had it in pastie ready but I'll use that instead. 21:42:43 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:42:43 jwdunne: pastie is fine 21:42:45 -!- zac314159 [~user@c-68-84-149-234.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:43:07 http://pastie.org/1622320 21:43:55 This is probably due to a really deep and flawed understanding of macros. 21:44:06 You're not allowed to change the definition of cl:+, for one thing. 21:44:33 I actually got a warning and ignored it. Remember, this is all for fun and games. 21:44:39 It's not for intentional use 21:45:09 Can't you redefine + if you unlock the cl package? 21:45:25 I successfully managed to redefine it as a function. It gave a warning but I'm not too fussed since I know the issues surrounding it. Must stress: this is all for fun and games. 21:45:26 You have too many parens following the defmacro. 21:45:28 is + a primitive written in C ? 21:45:35 It is. 21:45:39 jwdunne: you either make a new package or unlock 21:45:53 I see. 21:45:54 No, + is not necessarily written in C. 21:46:34 ok i would understand it if it were, cause C is not providing overloading of operators 21:46:45 but what's the reason in this case then ? 21:47:09 are sse instructions in ECL considered stable? my build is breaking on ext:cl-simd;ecl-sse-utils.lisp. 21:47:09 DEFUN/DEFMACRO: redefining function + in /home/James/static.lisp, was 21:47:09 defined in C 21:47:14 This is what the warning is given. 21:47:22 *giving 21:47:34 what implementation? 21:47:37 clisp 21:47:39 Cygwin. 21:48:02 ``Erik_ [Here@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:06 Joreji [~thomas@79-125.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:48:16 -!- ``Erik [Here@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:48:56 Hexstream: makes sense! Thanks. 21:49:09 -!- gabnet [~gabnet@252.63.193-77.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 21:49:21 Liera` [~user@113.172.66.61] has joined #lisp 21:49:56 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:49:57 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:07 so what are people thinking of the Bipolar Lisp Programmer thing http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/bipolar.htm# 21:50:12 -!- dumrat [~dumrat@112.135.223.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:50:17 i love essays on sociology of computer languages 21:50:54 dto: I think they are bunk. 21:51:01 ahahah 21:51:04 jwdunne: Did you try rebalancing your parens? There shouldn't be any major errors. 21:51:32 Yeah, that seemed to be the issue 21:51:34 Thanks :) 21:51:43 dto: being bipolar is almost certainly a better condition than whatever you might use to describe the mental state of a c++ programmer. 21:51:43 -!- Liera [~user@123.21.160.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:51:47 -!- Areil [~Areil@123.21.160.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:51:55 holy shit 21:51:55 -!- taylanub [~taylanub@p4FD94EB8.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 21:51:58 It worked. 21:52:27 WOAH 21:52:43 jwdunne: except I'd put it this way: (defmacro + (lst) `(funcall *add* ,@lst)) 21:52:52 jwdunne: if I understood your intention 21:52:57 That's so much cleaner than what I have. 21:53:13 Not that I'm good at macros or anything ;( 21:53:19 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@64.134.47.106] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:53:20 oconnore: i'm not sure what to think of that essay. however, it was about 5 years ago that i started lisp programming, and also 5 years ago that i was diagnosed as bipolar. which predates the essay :) 21:53:24 jwdunne: You can "sort-of redefine" the + operator by making a new package that shadows symbol + and then making a DEFUN for that. 21:53:30 oconnore: yeah re: c++ 21:54:03 http://pastie.org/1622380 21:54:07 This outputs 6 as intended 21:54:11 It's just really dirty. 21:54:30 I can tell it's messy, so apologies in advance. 21:54:47 jwdunne: Hehe. If you use EVAL in DEFMACRO, you're almost certainly doing something wrong. 21:55:28 Aye, I can't stand leaving it at "Well, it works." 21:55:28 The macro is supposed to compute an "expansion" that will then perform the wanted operations at run-time. 21:55:46 But what antoszka suggested did. 21:56:10 Yes, indeed. 21:56:38 jwdunne: Go dig up a copy of "On Lisp". I think it's available on the web. Will answer all your macro questions and then some. 21:57:06 I should probably read ANSI Common Lisp first... 21:57:15 Or Practical Common Lisp. 21:57:58 billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 21:57:58 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Changing host] 21:57:58 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 21:58:07 There are several problems with making + be a macro like this. Among other things, you can't put it in a variable and then FUNCALL it, and you can't use APPLY with it either, so you can't process a number of arguments only known at runtime... 21:58:51 Ah. 21:59:03 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 21:59:39 As a general rule, if something could be either a function or a macro, then it's better to make it a function. 22:00:13 Yeah, I've read that you should only use macros when you really need them. 22:01:01 Macros are also a bit more "heavyweight" than functions, in the sense that there are more things to think about when writing them, there's more complexity and it's easier to get some things wrong. 22:02:21 dumrat [~dumrat@112.135.207.119] has joined #lisp 22:02:23 zac314159 [~user@c-68-84-149-234.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:25 Yes. On the other hand, macros can be a real life-saver when you actually need them. (I get in a (usually silent) fit of rage when someone casually dismisses macros as something that can be done away with.) 22:02:42 dto: i've seen the essay before, and it strongly reminds me of myself iirc. i wish i had caught lisp in highschool. 22:02:44 jwdunne: sometimes you can do both. you can write a function to implement something, and then build a macro that makes it cleaner to call. 22:02:55 brodo [~brodo@p5B0244CD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:30 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@74.209.54.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:03:41 oudeis [~oudeis@64.134.47.106] has joined #lisp 22:03:59 Yeah. Well, all I can say is I've tasted it. I should probably start from the beginning now. I've always been fascinated by the mystical air around Lisp anyway, I just got bored of doing the simple things I comprehended ages ago. 22:04:12 Yes, and conversely, you can get the benefits of having something be a function along with the performance advantages of a macro by writing a compiler-macro (DEFINE-COMPILER-MACRO). But this is a bit of an advanced topic and you really shouldn't worry about compiler-macros right off the bat. 22:04:58 Plus, I learn best by creating non-trivial projects and then learn from my mistakes from that rather than the "these are the basic constructs and this is how you do control flow and this is how you write a function". 22:05:07 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-166-161.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:05:09 Areil [~Areil@113.172.66.61] has joined #lisp 22:05:20 Finding it quite difficult to find something to sit down and build with Lisp. 22:06:15 jwdunne: what are you interested in? 22:07:16 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 22:07:35 ie. algorithms, web programming, games, compilers, applications...? 22:08:10 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has joined #lisp 22:09:51 I'm a web dev. by profession 22:09:56 jwdunne: I suggest also reading a bit about packages and how to define and use them since you are violating package locks 22:10:09 I do have one idea but it seems like a 'head in the clouds' thing. 22:10:11 -!- Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:10:34 I will do this now fancogrex. 22:10:50 Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has joined #lisp 22:11:20 jwdunne: "I learn best by creating non-trivial projects and then learn from my mistakes" << I think it's a good approach 22:11:21 jwdunne: so write a blog in hunchentoot? or a web scraper? 22:11:45 I basically write PHP on the CodeIgniter framework for a living. It's quite boring really, since it's the same old crap just in different shapes and moulds. I was thinking of writing something that could minimize the amount of CodeIgniter-compatible PHP I have to write... I don't know if this is feasible 22:11:58 -!- dumrat [~dumrat@112.135.207.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:12:00 ASau [~user@93-80-218-22.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 22:12:05 ooh, that would be cool 22:12:12 -!- keyvan1 is now known as keyvan 22:12:16 sort of like a mini lisp -> php compiler 22:12:20 I have a feeling I'm being too ambitious? 22:12:46 Aye. I did look at Pharen but I need this to be complete CodeIgniter compatible. 22:12:55 *completely 22:13:27 Well, if you're going to write a compiler/interpreter/transformator, Common Lisp is an awesome language to do that :) 22:13:56 not necessarily, especially since you have a good understanding of your target language 22:14:33 i have no idea what CodeIgniter code looks like 22:14:36 Imagine if I could harness the power of Lisp, such as the speed of development, coupled with not having to negotiate (and lose) not writing projects in PHP, it could be win-win. 22:14:44 but you could start out by building a little macro language 22:14:47 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:15:37 for example, inside a php file, you place delimiters around a piece of your lisp-macro magic, and the program would insert the results into your php file. 22:15:52 that way you can start out gradually 22:15:55 That's a good idea. 22:15:58 I like that. 22:16:33 -!- Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:16:49 I'll go read up on packages first since I seemed to have made quite a big sin, haha 22:17:01 good luck! 22:17:24 Thank you :) 22:20:25 npoektop [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 22:22:11 Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has joined #lisp 22:22:24 -!- koollman [~samson_t@sp1.kooll.info] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:22:31 koollman [~samson_t@sp1.kooll.info] has joined #lisp 22:22:36 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 22:23:02 tcr2 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 22:23:02 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:24:02 -!- zac314159 [~user@c-68-84-149-234.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:24:36 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A5DBB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:26:16 jwdunne: go through PCL first to get a hang on writing basic programs, then go through Gentle (it has great part on manipulating CONS cells), then: 1) for macros: go through Let over Lambda, at least the online chapters, then On Lisp 2) for other programming stuff: PAIP; Into all of that, splice a little of Land of Lisp, maybe 22:27:03 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:30:36 i actually like the little schemer's intro. best intro into recursion i've read so far. :) 22:30:47 -!- ASau [~user@93-80-218-22.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:31:16 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 22:31:27 most examples are shown in lisp too 22:31:44 but that might be confusing. :S 22:32:13 ASau [~user@93-80-218-22.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 22:32:25 -!- npoektop [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:34:59 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Client Quit] 22:37:53 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:39:07 redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:40:03 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:42:07 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.122.202] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:43:38 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@64.134.47.106] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:47:06 -!- mpereira [~murilo@201.82.50.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:47:45 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.218.211] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 22:48:03 Does anyone known if there is a cl-ppcre .info/.texinfo manual available? 22:48:37 mpereira [~murilo@189-95-83-125.3g.claro.net.br] has joined #lisp 22:49:20 http://weitz.de/cl-ppcre/ is probably all the documentation you'll get... 22:49:57 Which is a lot compared to the documentation of the average Common Lisp project ;P 22:50:28 Hexstream: Thanx. thought i remembered seeing one at some point... 22:50:43 carlocci [~nes@93.37.218.211] has joined #lisp 22:51:20 nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has joined #lisp 22:51:20 -!- nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has quit [Changing host] 22:51:20 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 22:51:24 Maybe there's a third-party manual somewhere, that I don't know. 22:51:38 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-183-84.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:51:47 paul0 [~paul0@187.112.67.147] has joined #lisp 22:53:44 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@72-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:53:59 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:54:10 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.81.8] has joined #lisp 22:54:23 Hexstream: I find most CL libs to be fairly well documented. Though, I never can understand why various CL doc frobbing tools don't start with automagical "texi"fication as the primary target and then branch out to other doc markup formats from there. 22:55:11 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-183-84.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:55:39 Good morning everyone! 22:55:49 Hello beach 22:56:29 Liera`` [~user@123.20.52.228] has joined #lisp 22:56:59 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:57:21 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-183-84.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:57:47 mon_key: Probably because Texinfo is not the only contender. 22:58:31 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 22:58:32 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:59:10 -!- Areil [~Areil@113.172.66.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:59:16 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-64-108.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:00:01 -!- Liera` [~user@113.172.66.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:00:16 beach: Indeed, and I'm sure tension around GNU/GPL politics are a legitimate issue for some. Still, it has the nice feature of being available on damn near _any_ system and tightly integrated with Emacsen... 23:00:27 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:00:46 mon_key: You don't have to convince me. 23:01:00 -!- Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:01:21 Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has joined #lisp 23:02:20 I am not that great a fan of automatic documentation generation from docstrings. I can see the advantages, but they seem to be dwarfed by the disadvantages. 23:02:46 I'm always curious how the authors of the lesser well documented libraries are able to keep all the functionality without docs 23:02:50 -!- cnl [~cnl@78.31.74.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:03:26 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:03:33 beach: does this apply for CL's builtin documentation facilities as well? 23:04:18 It does, yes. 23:04:29 hey beach 23:04:32 One thing's for sure, I really don't want to clutter my code with damn "inline" docstrings. 23:04:38 hello slyrus 23:04:44 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:04:55 Trying to code with that in the way is like trying to code with loud music with clear lyrics in the background. 23:05:06 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 23:05:30 Hexstream: Yes, I agree. And the result when there are such "inline" docstrings is that they are too short and unhelpful, for exactly the reason you mention. 23:05:32 Jamamooga_ [~Jamamooga@74-95-42-29-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:05:49 Hexstream: I've finally broken myself of that habit. I've plenty of elisp which i'm sure you'd find quite noisy :) 23:06:18 Yes, exactly. You get in an impossible situation where the docstring is necessarily either to short to be helpful or too long so it breaks the readability of the code too much. 23:06:31 too short* 23:06:36 -!- Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:06:43 Yep, exactly. 23:07:02 Hexstream: Which is why I prefer (setf documentation). 23:07:04 Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has joined #lisp 23:07:23 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:07:28 I thought the same but actually did like elaborate documentation close to the source. The only problem is the distance of the lambda list to the code 23:07:41 The downside of separating the doc from the thing documented is that you quickly loose the ability to match up arguments esp. if these should change or there are a not insignificant number of them. 23:07:47 beach: That's indeed what I'm planning to do in the way of docstrings. My current plan is to generate a docstrings.lisp file that contains SETF DOCUMENTATION. The file would be generated from the Texinfo XML... 23:07:57 The nice thing is that you can easy check that you got edges cases right (assuming your documentation mentions the edge cases) 23:08:31 I can see the advantage of having the docstring close to the code it documents, but I think the disadvantages dominate. 23:08:56 beach: what about for class slot docs? 23:09:11 I think it depends on the kind of thing. If it's a recently small library I think it's ok. 23:09:41 -!- bongy [~bongy@host132-7-dynamic.246-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:09:52 A simple editor feature that lets you toggle the inline documentation would be best, I guess. 23:10:31 mon_key: Class slots should not be part of the exported protocol. 23:10:36 -!- Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has quit [Quit: changing servers] 23:11:03 beach: and the accessors? 23:11:13 mon_key: What about them? 23:12:00 You can't document accessors declared with the :reader, :writer or :accessor slot options... Not that it would be really useful anyway. 23:12:32 Hexstream: what about (setf documentation) of (find-method...)? 23:12:32 -!- brodo [~brodo@p5B0244CD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: brodo] 23:12:44 I am pretty sure you can set documentation for methods. 23:12:54 Areil [~Areil@123.20.52.228] has joined #lisp 23:13:13 It is usually better to document the generic function though. 23:13:44 antifuchs: Ah, cool. So you can do it "after the fact". 23:14:02 tronador_ [~guille@190.66.172.182] has joined #lisp 23:14:16 always 23:14:21 But really, who's going to read the docstring for a method?? I know I wouldn't ;P 23:14:28 beach: sometimes it makes sense to put docstrings onto methods themselves 23:14:38 but well, yeah, who reads them 23:14:47 antifuchs: Yes, hence the use of "usually". 23:14:53 (unless you package them into auto-generated docs) 23:15:17 That, or if you inspect the method. 23:15:37 Hexstream: what will that tell you? 23:16:02 What? 23:16:31 zac314159 [~user@c-68-84-149-234.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:16:46 other than lots of details which are often quite removed from the exported protocol 23:17:18 Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 23:17:59 mon_key: So what was your problem with the accessors? 23:18:19 cnl [~cnl@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 23:18:24 Edward__ [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-71-54.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:18:34 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:18:39 mon_key: Sorry, I thought you meant you wanted to document accessors, while maybe you meant to ask if accessors should be part of the public interface? 23:18:55 The answer being, it depends on each specific accessor. 23:19:12 :) I'm mostly curious how people keep it all top of mind. 23:20:03 For example, if an accesor is implicitly created then there isn't alot other than the slot doc to tell you what it does. 23:20:34 mon_key: I think it is good practice to stick in a defgeneric or two there. 23:20:37 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.81.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:21:02 beach: OK. that helps. 23:21:04 mon_key: And, no, there is still (setf documentation) which doesn't have to be close to the slot definition. 23:21:35 -!- mpereira [~murilo@189-95-83-125.3g.claro.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:22:11 mpereira [~murilo@189-95-83-125.3g.claro.net.br] has joined #lisp 23:22:36 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:23:03 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 23:23:12 -!- illumina` [~user@pool-71-114-7-169.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:23:52 illumina` [~user@pool-71-114-7-169.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:24:47 oudeis [~oudeis@rrcs-184-74-152-105.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:25:24 beach: So, w/ the (setf doc) route, I'm using SICL's fundoc for function documentation at the bottom of each file to document the functions contained above... This is nice because the source stays "cleaner" but it can quickly become difficult to keep organized and I've not yet incorporated a scheme for documenting the generics, methods, slots, classes, variables, etc. 23:26:10 -!- jweiss [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:27:24 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:27:41 -!- quodlibetor [~user@75.103.38.110] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:27:41 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 23:28:35 -!- awesome-o [~anonymous@208.74.177.139.static.etheric.net] has quit [Quit: awesome-o] 23:28:35 -!- keyvan- [~keyvan@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:28:38 -!- keyvan [~keyvan@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:29:49 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-183-84.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:30:21 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Client Quit] 23:30:37 I guess I'm curious as to how other approach documentatation. When I look at really polished libraries I'm often curious if it is just _clean_ or if considerable scrubbing occured. 23:30:47 keyvan [~keyvan@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:08 keyvan- [~keyvan@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:13 -!- Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:33:22 Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has joined #lisp 23:33:51 -!- cnl [~cnl@78.31.74.25] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:34:39 -!- rien is now known as rien|work 23:35:07 One popular approach is The Stassats Approach to Documentation: "I don't write documentation." 23:35:23 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-180-182.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:29 cnl [~cnl@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 23:35:55 Hexstream: Yes but stassats is an elevated form of humanoid. (and I suspect prob. has photographic memory) 23:36:18 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@83.101.33.2] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:37:07 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 23:38:28 -!- Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:38:31 mon_key: Like I said, I haven't thought it through entirely, but as of now, I think it has to do with how stable the interface is. If the interface is stable like the Common Lisp HyperSpec or CLIM, then you can safely move the docstring away from the code. If it evolves a lot, it might be better to keep it next to the code. This suggests starting out with an inline docstring (that can be skimpy) and moving it to (setf documentation) 23:38:32 as the interface becomes more stable. 23:39:33 Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has joined #lisp 23:39:33 mon_key: But more importantly, if all the documentation is attached to some piece of code, then there is a tendency to "forget" to document general ideas, principles, terminology, etc. 23:40:28 mon_key: My recent experience of trying to read GTK+ documentation is a great example. Each method and and class is documented, but nowhere does it say at what point in time the layout protocol is invoked and other stuff that cannot be attached to code. 23:41:00 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:19 beach: wrt GTK+ I read that in the scrollback a few days ago. 23:41:32 OK. 23:41:45 It is far from the only example though. 23:42:13 Mcclim/CLX (and I assume Clim) all seem to have very nice manuals. But they were written by more than one person. 23:43:00 mon_key: Sure, writing documentation takes time and effort. 23:43:47 mon_key: And if the interface is not stable, one must find a way to keep the code and the documentation in sync. 23:45:29 If I don't immediately document the code it never happens and later I'm sometimes at a loss as to the functionality. Sometimes I suspect that this slows me down. I can't imagine how the big CL APIs ever get documented if they aren't "doc as you go" 23:46:15 -!- Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:46:15 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-93-62-247.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:46:58 Wolong [~wolong@95.191.55.38] has joined #lisp 23:48:07 -!- mpereira [~murilo@189-95-83-125.3g.claro.net.br] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:48:20 -!- cnl [~cnl@78.31.74.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:48:43 "The big CL APIs"?... You mean Common Lisp? That was documented with several years of hard work and a somewhat formal process involving multiple parties ;) 23:49:19 mon_key: If I did that, I would throw away a lot of documentation, because I almost always get the API wrong the first few times. 23:50:48 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:51:41 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.79.182] has joined #lisp 23:51:44 wanderingelf [4817e03a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.23.224.58] has joined #lisp 23:52:10 mpereira [~murilo@201.82.50.37] has joined #lisp 23:52:11 Yeah, and documenting too early can add "drag" to the evolution of your library, because you have more invested in how things currently are. 23:53:08 mon_key: Just out of curiosity: what do you think about the Flexichain documentation? 23:53:23 Hexstream: CLX, mcclim, cffi, etc. 23:54:14 cnl [~cnl@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 23:54:15 -!- paul0 [~paul0@187.112.67.147] has quit [Quit: paul0] 23:54:35 Teeko [~Teeko@171.Red-81-35-139.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:12 I have asked this many times before, but is there really not anything more resembling NumPy than GSLL? I think GSLL is a piece of crap in terms of ease of use because a) it expects double-floats b) can't automatically coerce single float to doubles nor floats to double nor any combination of those c) can't slice d) can't make series 0..n e) has *separate generic functions* for matrices containing complex numbers and those which only 23:55:12 contain floats - what's the point of using a generic function then anyways? 23:55:45 mon_key: Ok, then I guess the answer is: "They get documented by a deliberate effort." It's not the kind of thing that "just happens", certainly, especially for a big project. 23:56:10 peterhil: Is CL's type system strong enough to be generic over matrices that contain complex numbers versus those containing only floats? I don't think so... 23:56:58 fantazo [~fantazo@178-190-234-172.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 23:57:07 [I think we were bitten badly by your (b) on a recent bit of computing...] 23:57:42 I have also looked on using an array-map function together with regular arithmetic functions, but I still need a) NumPy style iterators b) array slicing (why is the none in CL)?!?, c) scalar to array and general array broadcasting in Numpy style 23:57:52 setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.204] has joined #lisp 23:57:53 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Quit: I'll see you on the dark side of the moon] 23:58:17 SpitfireWP [Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 23:59:33 beach: still looking my texmf is missing a .sty :) 23:59:41 peterhil: I suspect GSLL is more aimed at efficiency than you are. Slicing is never going to be a very efficient operation....