00:00:12 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:01:34 user_ [~user@router2-border.mreja.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:59 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 00:02:06 -!- user_ [~user@router2-border.mreja.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:06:23 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-114-173.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:11:44 slyrus: Are both arrays simple? 00:12:16 -!- Agari [~Agari@180.Red-81-33-92.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:13:31 yes 00:14:18 Does disassemble give a clue? 00:16:09 nikodemus did in #sbcl, there's an extra deref 00:16:18 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:44 I guess one needs to know where the array data actually starts (rather than the header which may be of different sizes based on the rank) 00:17:40 Oh, I see. 00:18:41 If it is in a loop, that should be strength-reduced, though, unless the array is in a global variable. 00:18:44 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:20:12 Or perhaps loop-invarianted (!) rather than strength-reduced. 00:20:13 *p_l|backup* just found out that slime had been slowly eating his diskspace since 2008 00:20:43 p_l|backup: how? 00:20:54 antifuchs: it has been keeping fasls since that in ~/.slime 00:21:18 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:21:21 never upgrade your implementation, problem solved. 00:21:50 rm -Rf ~/.slime/20{08,09,10}* :) 00:22:14 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:23:09 -!- oconnore [~eric@ip68-230-164-105.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:23:43 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 00:24:03 though it was less space-hogging than eclipse... 00:24:17 hmm 00:24:30 (~/.slime was 107MB compared to ~/.eclipse having 499MB) 00:26:04 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:26:09 p_l|backup: hah 00:26:18 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:26:19 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:26:49 antifuchs: before you hark on such small amounts, I was operating >95% disk full :> 00:27:12 I was grinning at ~/.slime 00:27:27 I regularly cleaned mine out when I was mixing threaded/non-threaded sbcl builds 00:27:40 haven't looked into mine in a while 00:28:31 `micro [~micro@www.bway.net] has joined #lisp 00:31:18 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:09 milkpost_ [~milkpost@dhcpw80ff6634.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 00:34:26 Agari [~Agari@180.Red-81-33-92.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:29 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:34:52 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw80ff6634.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:36:11 TeMPOraL [~user@188.146.73.81.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has joined #lisp 00:38:14 p_l|backup: Buy more disk. 00:39:00 beach: laptop. And my only spendable money is emergency 100 PLN in the pocket to deal with any trips outside home 00:39:28 that said, I have an extra disk, but it's for off-pc storage of stuff like media, backups etc. 00:43:29 -!- Joreji [~thomas@79-125.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:44:47 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.1.39.223] has joined #lisp 00:44:53 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:45:03 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 00:45:34 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 00:47:48 rdd` [~rdd@c83-250-51-60.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 00:50:09 -!- jweiss [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:51:10 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-51-60.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:54:16 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@188.146.73.81.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:54:17 Nipped [~Nipped@c-76-17-168-136.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:55:27 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:58:09 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-95-153.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:01:59 -!- Agari [~Agari@180.Red-81-33-92.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Quit] 01:05:24 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:07:38 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:14:48 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:16 I seem to fail at adjusting a buffer. 01:15:29 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755c27.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:15:36 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A3A11.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:16:37 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 01:16:51 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 01:17:02 xxx [2e70b8cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.112.184.207] has joined #lisp 01:17:39 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:18:49 I'm trying to adjust-array a vector to read-sequence into it, but after I adjust-array it and verify that the first array-dimension is 2000, read-sequence complains "The bounding indices 2000 and 1000 are bad for a sequence of length 1000." 01:19:59 <_3b> fill pointer? 01:20:03 ok, I'm sure I'm doing something wrong 01:20:08 yeah, fill pointer is a good guess (: 01:22:23 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:27 -!- xxx [2e70b8cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.112.184.207] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:23:27 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:23:29 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 01:24:04 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:30:01 antifuchs: if that's sbcl, it sounds like you have :start 2000 and :end 1000 01:30:12 yeah, I was completely off 01:30:31 *antifuchs* uses with-output-to-string now, and that works way better (: 01:30:41 also, if the thing isn't adjustable in the first place, adjust-array returns a copy 01:31:07 off to bed --> 01:31:10 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:31:32 it is adjustable, but thanks (: 01:32:03 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:34:34 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:40:06 -!- hugod_ [~hugod@bas3-montreal50-2925489870.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod_] 01:40:08 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:19 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:43:24 nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has joined #lisp 01:43:24 -!- nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has quit [Changing host] 01:43:24 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 01:47:50 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:48:48 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:49:47 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:51:15 OK, I am reading the GTK+ reference manual, and it's a horrible example of what automatic documentation can result in. So, for instance, I can read about Layout Containers, which says how a parent controls the size and position of its children, but it doesn't say anything similar to CLIM "space requirement", i.e. how an object can tell its parent what sizes it might want to take on. Any hints? 01:51:29 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:54:11 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.216.46] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 01:54:12 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:54:39 the hyperspec is terrible at setting overly high documentation expectations ;) I severely miss the like for clojure. 01:54:42 So for instance, take Firefox (which I assume is made using GTK+). When I have a horizontal list of tabs, it is interesting to observe how the "buttons" are displayed when the main window grows and shrinks. And I see nothing in the GTK+ manual that would let me do that. 01:55:41 kencausey: The CLIM II manual is not nearly as good as the Common Lisp HyperSpec, but it beats the GTK+ reference manual I am reading by a couple of orders of magnitude. 01:56:43 well, I should think the hyperspec sets the bar high and encourages cl developers to try a bit harder at least 01:57:19 -!- longshot [~longshot@216.131.74.24] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:57:39 beach: I think you'll have better luck in a GTK forum than a Lisp forum for that question, unless you are looking for sympathy and not answers. 01:58:33 Xach: You are definitely right about that. 01:58:49 I'm not so sure ;) 01:58:59 anyone know if there is a way to disable all signal handling with sbcl? Webkit's GC seems to be interfering with sbcl and I want to test if that is the issue 01:59:18 Xach: If I wanted to actually *use* GTK+ I would not hesitate. But I just wanted to get inspiration (or not) from its layout model. 01:59:42 cheezus: sbcl uses signals for its write barrier, I don't think there's a way to disable all of it. 01:59:57 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:00:21 antifuchs: I'll settle for just as many as I can for now 02:00:35 longshot [~longshot@216.131.74.24] has joined #lisp 02:00:51 well, the write barrier is SIGBUS or SIGSEGV, depending on the platform (: 02:01:39 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:02:01 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 02:02:54 antifuchs: I'm a bit slow, how would I actually get sbcl to install no-ops for most signals? 02:03:27 longshot_ [~longshot@180.184.10.145] has joined #lisp 02:03:52 LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-95-153.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:54 -!- longshot_ is now known as Guest45870 02:03:55 I'm reading the PCL and I'm on the macros chapter, but I have two small questions. 02:04:31 one is how to do a let over lambda, but I just tried (let ((blah 0)) (defun ... and it worked, so I guess that's how. (I'm coming from Scheme) 02:04:56 cheezus: sorry, I'll look it up. hang on. 02:04:58 hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441327.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:05:01 and the other question is how to do what in scheme would be (define my-alias-for-display display) 02:05:12 (defun myprint princ) doesn't work 02:05:21 -!- scottj [~scott@206.212.250.58] has left #lisp 02:05:52 pizdets [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:06:00 -!- ch077179 [~urs@adsl-84-227-25-16.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 02:06:09 chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 02:06:12 antifuchs: I think you were messing around with commonqt as well, right? if so, maybe the solution is obvious to you: http://paste.lisp.org/display/119841 02:06:23 rien: I don't think nested defuns do what you want. And maybe `defalias'? (Although, I'm a Schemer too, so I could be mistaken...) 02:06:41 -!- longshot [~longshot@216.131.74.24] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:06:42 nope, that wasn't me - _8david` or some others might be the better people to ask (: 02:07:07 ah ok, well I'd still appreciate the info about signals I couldn't figure it out 02:07:16 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp2364.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:07:17 see the docs for sb-sys:enable-interrupt 02:07:28 rien: Why do you want to do that? 02:07:44 fds: I actually tried defalias on a whim but (defalias blah princ) says blah isn't defined :/ 02:08:07 Xach: it's useful in many situations. right now I want to do it to know how to do it. 02:09:01 cheezus: can't find it /-: 02:09:14 I know I knew this some time ago 02:09:17 Did you quote blah? But now people who know what they're talking about are talking I'll be quiet. :-) 02:09:18 beach: Why GTK? what's wrong with QT? 02:09:20 antifuchs: I think Xach just mentioned it 02:09:25 oh yeah 02:09:28 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:09:43 rien: There's no shorthand for it. 02:11:00 Xach: so I'd have to create a macro that would write this for me: (defun myprint (&rest params) (apply princ params)) ? that's ok too. it's just strange that there's no way to do it out of the box 02:11:43 rien: Maybe. I can't say I've ever missed it. 02:12:27 rien: That's a good way to lose all the arglist info. 02:12:37 and checking, etc 02:13:27 it's just strange because if everything is just symbols, then I should be able to have two symbol pointing to the same object. 02:13:32 udzinari: Because mathrick says it's inevitable. 02:13:38 rien: Everything isn't just symbols. 02:13:51 function names are 02:13:54 udzinari: But thanks. I'll see if that one is better documented. 02:14:09 rien: Nope, they can be (setf symbol). 02:14:34 rien: Maybe you could setf symbol-function. 02:15:10 rien: you could try (setf (fdefinition 'bar) #'foo) 02:15:28 kruft [~user@c-98-214-105-38.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:15:36 rme: yeah that's what I found in some forum thread asking "elisp defalias equivalent in CL?" 02:16:13 setf fdefinition is the closest to a right thing 02:16:30 of course you want to do it at compile-time too for the sake of compiler awareness, so put it in an eval-when 02:16:57 I still have to defvar myprint first, right? 02:17:02 redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:08 oh no, sorry 02:17:10 no. 02:17:33 ok that worked perfectly. plus it didn't lose any arglist info 02:17:41 Xach: :) 02:18:20 for the other question, is (let ((blah 0)) (defun ,... the idiomatic way to write a let over lambda? 02:18:23 it works fine for me 02:18:40 -!- Nipped [~Nipped@c-76-17-168-136.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:19:06 rien: I don't think I've heard anyone call it "let over lambda" except doug hoyte. 02:19:27 if I had called it "closure" people would be telling me that's not the only thing that is a "closure" :P 02:19:38 rien: You can write (let ... (lambda ...)) to get a let "over" lambda literally. 02:20:02 yes but I want a function with sole access to globals, a.k.a. a closure 02:20:05 <_3b> if you want a defun that closes over a variable, that is a reasonable way to do so 02:20:18 that's it. ok. there's no other way, though, right? 02:20:35 you don't like that way? 02:20:36 <_3b> no reasonable way that i can think of 02:20:44 there's no way to do (defun myfunc () (let ((blah 0)) (lambda ... 02:20:49 *_3b* can think of some unreasonable ones though 02:20:50 rme: I do like that way, yes. 02:20:53 hah 02:21:14 ok, thanks. 02:21:38 if something is named "undoably_install_low_level_interrupt-handler" I guess that means I can't override it, right? :) 02:21:49 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:22:11 -!- jesusito [~user@91.pool85-49-229.dynamic.orange.es] has left #lisp 02:22:27 *_3b* might assume you can 'undo' something named that way 02:23:33 hm, yes you are right. That would be unundoably :) 02:24:19 or just doably (-; 02:25:08 -!- rasterba_ [~rasterbar@50.12.160.139] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:25:09 I should probably not be coding today 02:25:24 seems that I can't trap the signal anyway for some reason 02:25:29 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 02:27:54 interesting approach: http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/userblogs/antony/blogView?showComments=true&printTitle=WebInspector_for_WebKit_in_VW,_and_some_points_about_using_WebKit_as_a_replacement_GUI.&entry=3375921297 02:30:48 -!- milkpost_ [~milkpost@dhcpw80ff6634.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 02:31:33 milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw80ff6634.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 02:31:51 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 02:33:57 Xach: in Scheme the only way is to write a let over lambda literally. that's also why I referred to it as such :) 02:34:18 (let ((blah 0)) (define .. is not allowed in scheme. 02:34:46 No need to learn CL by thinking and talking about what you would do in scheme. 02:34:50 It will slow you down. 02:35:08 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:38 I understand that, and I think you're right. I was asking because I really use that a lot. 02:35:51 ...in scheme. 02:36:19 I'd figure CL would use it even more since I'm breaking the "functional" laws somewhat when I do that in scheme. 02:36:31 *rien* shrugs 02:37:09 I have a hard time thinking of an alternative to that, though. 02:37:17 rien: Well, CL is a procedural language, so ... 02:37:34 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:37:39 Zhivago: so I can use a let over a defun without getting crucified. 02:37:49 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw80ff6634.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 02:37:59 You can, but why hide your values? 02:38:09 what do you mean by hide? 02:38:30 Well, if you use (let ((a 10)) (defun b() a)) then you can't access a from elsewhere. 02:38:47 Why not just use (defvar *a* 10) (defun b () *a*)? 02:38:52 that's the point. defun closes over a. it's a function with persistent state. 02:38:53 rien: putting a let around a defun will work poorly in file-compiled systems 02:39:09 it is far more idiomatic and safe to use a separate global variable 02:39:40 rien: Can you describe the advantage over using defar? 02:39:46 kpreid: that's weird. a compiler should turn those let functions into globals. 02:40:10 Zhivago: separation of concerns, locality, not polluting the global namespace... 02:40:19 rien: CL doesn't have a global namespace. 02:40:43 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 02:40:43 rien: it's not a question of how good the compiler is, but the semantics of CL 02:41:21 kpreid: if I defvar the variable then people reading my code won't know that it is only accessible from that one function. 02:41:23 rien: a defun inside a let is no longer a top-level form, so it no longer has the 'let the compiler know this function exists' effect 02:41:40 plus, what if I have several functions that have their own "counter" variable? that doesn't scale. 02:42:06 rien: It doesn't need to scale any more than the number of functions. 02:42:32 rien: If you were writing a counter function generator, on the other hand, you might have a point. 02:42:47 Zhivago: so if I have two functions that have a persistent "counter" variable, what do I do? defvar counter1 and counter2? 02:43:11 rien: Well, the obvious approach would be to name the counters something along the same lines as the functions that use them. 02:43:24 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:43:24 Presumably the counters are used for different purposes ... 02:43:59 make them into closures containing their own counter storage? 02:44:20 p_l|backup: how do you mean? 02:44:53 Zhivago: then it makes the code less readable. 02:45:55 rien: Well, you could always replace defun with something that generated globals as required ... 02:46:19 Although it you're relying on counters so much perhaps your design might want changing. 02:47:16 Zhivago: that's just an example, and beside the point. I'm surprised people recommend globals over lets over defuns. 02:48:11 rien: The fundamental question should be -- what advantage do you derive from making those inaccessible? 02:49:07 kruft` [~user@c-98-214-105-38.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:49:46 Zhivago: the fact that no other function should be able to access them because they're meaningless outside this one function. 02:50:02 rien: What about the programmer? 02:50:35 what about them? 02:50:55 This conversation appears to be a waste of time. Have fun. 02:51:26 mfadl [~mazin@dhcp-0-f-3d-bc-41-3b.cpe.quickclic.net] has joined #lisp 02:51:26 *rien* shrugs 02:52:16 -!- kruft [~user@c-98-214-105-38.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:52:41 -!- Soulman [~knute@250.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 02:53:02 rien: (defun make-counter () (let ((a 0)) (lambda () (incf a) a))) <--- that's how I would implement a counter, I guess... and no, I never got to the point of closures in Scheme :) 02:54:18 p_l|backup: doesn't (incf a) already return the new a? 02:54:39 -!- mfadl [~mazin@dhcp-0-f-3d-bc-41-3b.cpe.quickclic.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 02:54:41 p_l|backup: yes, that looks very much like what one would do in scheme. that is a HOF though, since it returns a function. I was talking about plain functions needing persistent state 02:55:06 sykopomp: I'm half asleep, I forgot 02:55:23 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-95-153.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:55:24 rien: (let ((x 0)) (defun global-counter () ...)), you mean? 02:55:33 yes 02:55:52 they were telling me that would throw off the compiler optimizations for top level defuns 02:56:16 <_3b> itisn't a top-level defun anymore if it is in a let 02:56:17 rien: well, you could write yourself a macro, or whatever, to include a closure inside the defined function to manage state 02:56:17 or, in other words, that using a global var instead would be more efficient 02:56:37 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-76-245-60-219.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: brb] 02:57:03 _3b: then we need a (let ((x 0)) (top-level-defun :) 02:57:10 *_3b* wouldn't expect either to be portably 'more efficient' 02:57:38 <_3b> global is a lot easier to debug though 02:57:50 p_l|backup: hmmm I have trouble picturing that, mainly because I'm a newbie at macros. 02:57:55 <_3b> or to shadow if you want to save/restore the value sometimes\ 02:58:17 rien: when implementing global counters/data structures like that, my experience is that doing a defvar is generally nicer, because it's easier to debug. 02:58:23 I've also seen symbol-plists used for this purpose. 02:58:25 Or you keep, if you reload the function ... 02:58:46 AMOP uses the (let (...) (defun ...)) pattern, though. 02:58:51 Zhivago: I thought I was wasting your time? ;) 02:58:55 <_3b> yeah, redefining the function without changing the value is another good difference 02:59:02 rien: I'm not talking at you. 02:59:41 sykopomp: I will keep that in mind. one thing that I like about CL is its strong debuggin capabilities. 03:00:37 debugging* 03:03:50 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:04:07 afk 03:04:07 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:04:27 Nipped [~Nipped@c-76-17-168-136.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:32 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:12 corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:12 -!- xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:05:41 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 03:08:02 hm, drakma/flexi-streams pitfall: I was expecting its post body stream (when passing a function to http-request's :content arg) to be a bivalent primarily-octet stream (so cxml would try and write octets), but it's a primarily-character stream, so cxml complains when it can't write stuff that's not in latin-1 03:08:11 (setf (flexi-streams:flexi-stream-element-type stream) 'flexi-streams:octet) fixes this. 03:10:47 -!- akkartik [~akkartik@akkartik.name] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:10:57 rien: t'other thing is that arguably functions shouldn't have state that belongs to them 03:12:01 or rather, global state is something to be used thoughtfully, and so it being heavyweight to use isn't a bad thing 03:12:02 kpreid: one can hardly avoid that, though, right? :) 03:12:08 um, no? 03:12:18 how would you write read-next-byte ? 03:12:20 as long as you stick to plain defuns, functions don't have state 03:12:33 read-byte takes a stream argument 03:12:35 kpreid: it's just very useful at certain times 03:12:40 antifuchs: sure 03:12:40 unless you restrict yourself to the kind of functions that you're going to write 03:12:51 -!- jrockway [~jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:12:52 I'm just saying, it's reasonable to not make it easy 03:13:02 ( making it hard) 03:13:02 antifuchs: that's the point I'm not being successful at making. 03:13:19 problem is, I can't think of a time right now (-: 03:13:36 antifuchs: I appreciate your help anyway :P 03:13:58 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:14:01 kpreid: you can do it that way, or you can do it the read-next-byte way. we're free to choose (or should be) 03:14:08 I'm not against one or the other. 03:14:16 it's a bit of an information-hiding thing, because outside of the debugger (and in an inspector that can look into closures - is there one?) you can't actually look at what the environment for that function really is 03:14:18 rien: and I didn't say prohibiting it 03:14:19 sometimes one will describe the problem better than the other 03:14:34 rien: I'm arguing that a language is not bad for not making it easy 03:14:42 it's like saying "you can't look at this variable, only this function can", and that's not really the lisp way (: 03:14:45 I'd never argue CL is bad. 03:14:48 but it's not the lisp way to forbid it either (: 03:15:05 so the feature is there, it's just useful in very few cases (: 03:15:32 The older I get, the more I dislike anonymous values. 03:15:54 antifuchs: I guess one could write a macro that would output (defvar blah 0) (defun only-function-that-uses-blah .... -> and having blah be generate by gensym? 03:16:28 rien: using gensym is wrong because then if you reload the file the state will be reset 03:16:30 but what would be the use of that? why not just use a regularly named special variable 03:16:32 Jubb [~ghost@129.21.86.17] has joined #lisp 03:16:32 akkartik [~akkartik@akkartik.name] has joined #lisp 03:16:35 actually, using a let around a defun will do that too 03:16:52 that is one reason for using a named global: so when you reload the old and new definitions can be matched up 03:17:01 (wish I'd remembered that example earlier) 03:17:45 That's ok -- I mentioned it, and it made no impact on rien. 03:18:00 perhaps it's the way you said it... 03:19:32 antifuchs: because with a global value there's no separation of concerns and no locality 03:19:45 homie` [~user@xdsl-78-35-180-66.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:19:49 not to mention it's not a closure anymore so the variable is exposed to the rest of the program 03:20:05 See :) 03:20:14 rien: perhaps you should be using more separate packages! 03:20:24 -!- timack [~tim@hlfx58-2a-196.ns.sympatico.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:20:32 rien: except it's not distinguishable from a global variable that you can't access while debugging 03:20:37 kpreid: even inside a package, some functions should not see some variables. 03:20:41 why 03:21:02 because it's none of the other functions' business. it's not relevant to them 03:21:17 every time you write "the function", I read "the programmer" 03:21:20 rien: CL programmers tend to reject the notion of programmatic restrictions rather than good habits 03:21:23 because that's what is actually going on (: 03:21:40 -!- akkartik [~akkartik@akkartik.name] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:21:51 and as a programmer, I reject this notion (as kpreid noted) (: 03:22:03 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-187-232.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:22:07 antifuchs: the code is an expression of the programmer's thinking. it only makes sense. 03:22:26 well, do you forbid yourself from thinking about certain things at certain times? 03:22:51 I don't believe the notion of closures is lost on CLers. I think you guys are just being argumentative for argumentation's sake. :P 03:23:21 closures are useful, but artificial closures aren't, very often. 03:23:24 antifuchs: yes, to keep my sanity I try not to think about work on weekends, for instance. :) 03:23:30 heh 03:23:36 rien: I think you're just being dogmatic because you prefer not to think. 03:23:48 Zhivago: that was a completely anti-helpful remark. 03:24:09 rien: Lay aside your religious beliefs, and consider the practical points. 03:24:18 I'm ignoring him because he's being impolite. 03:24:18 (I don't mean helpful to rien, I mean helpful to having a meaningful conversation) 03:24:32 He already said this conversation is a waste of his time. 03:24:37 -!- sellout [~Adium@pool-71-175-25-141.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:24:42 rien: You make it so because of your dogma. 03:25:18 akkartik [~akkartik@akkartik.name] has joined #lisp 03:25:36 antifuchs: "often" depends on the programmer and how they think, I find. Like I said, I'm not against either solution. whatever models the problem best is fine. 03:26:02 this programmer has had to scratch his head at too many obscure failures to appreciate information hiding anymore (: 03:26:50 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 03:27:10 hmm, I'm trying to get usockets going 03:27:16 sbcl, linux x64 03:27:35 I'm getting a permission denied error opening #P"/usr/lib/sbcl/sb-grovel/defpackage.fasl" 03:27:49 it's root-owned, world readable 03:27:52 antifuchs: I can appreciate that. I see globals as hiding though, because they're not together with the function that uses them 03:27:55 sounds like your contribs had a build failure 03:28:15 er, or the mod dates are wrong 03:28:18 now, this is on a workstation where everybody has the same system image, so changes to it aren't ultra trivial 03:28:21 (if it failed the file wouldn't *exist*... 03:28:28 right, the file does exist 03:28:35 compare its date to defpackage.lisp 03:28:35 <_3b> is it newer than the .lisp file? 03:28:43 rien: Do you see separate functions as hiding, for the same reason? 03:28:45 oh, duh, so it's trying to opening it for writing :-P 03:28:52 rien: I think of it like this: when I have the source code and a failed state, how do I discover the reason for that failure? 03:28:54 *Phoodus* facepalms 03:28:59 with a global variable, I look at the variable's value 03:29:11 with a closure, how do I inspect it? 03:29:17 (it's implementation-dependent) 03:29:26 (and often won't work outside a debugger) 03:29:32 -!- akkartik [~akkartik@akkartik.name] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:30:29 akkartik [~akkartik@akkartik.name] has joined #lisp 03:30:30 anonanon [~43a46169@akkartik.name] has joined #lisp 03:30:35 antifuchs: you know more about that part of the subject than I do since I'm not yet familiar with the CL debugger at that level. I'll take your word for it. so you say you can't see blah on the stack frames while debugging (let ((blah 0)) (defun... ? 03:30:37 hmm, the fasls are all much newer than the .lisp files 03:30:57 Zhivago: we can talk when you learn some manners. 03:31:01 <_3b> rien: why would it be on the stack? 03:31:08 rien: when the function is being *called* the let is long gone... 03:31:17 rien|wor`: it depends on how that function was compiled, and on the implementation 03:31:30 and sometimes, I have a failed state without a debugger (: 03:31:36 rien: It must be nice to have an excuse to avoid critical reasoning. 03:31:45 being able to inspect the environment is a very valuable thing in cl 03:31:55 jrockway [~jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has joined #lisp 03:31:57 it's not a wise move to throw it away 03:32:44 -!- psilord2 [~psilord@76.201.144.30] has left #lisp 03:32:50 Zhivago: whatever you say, you're right. you won the discussion. I hope you're happy. I don't care about being right. now stop talking to me. 03:33:37 kpreid, _3b: my asdf helper function was doing :force t on the compile step, that's my problem 03:33:45 rien: Does it make you more comfortable to avoid thinking? 03:33:55 ah, yes, the option that does what nobody wants 03:33:55 _3b: you're right :) 03:34:21 yet when you don't use it, you sometimes run upon old code mismatches, which nobody wants either :-P 03:34:27 anonanon1 [~Adium@c-67-164-97-105.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:34:55 kpreid: the let is gone but the variable is still around, closed over, right? 03:35:01 -!- anonanon1 [~Adium@c-67-164-97-105.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 03:35:04 sure, but it doesn't have a name 03:35:16 therefore you can only look at as the nth variable closed over by this particular closure ... 03:35:27 -!- anonanon [~43a46169@akkartik.name] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)] 03:35:28 which is often harder to get at than just knowing the code mentions a variable name 03:35:29 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:35:37 sure, an inspector lets you walk into it, but that's many steps 03:36:13 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe5ddc00-120.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: RaceCondition] 03:36:18 how is the name loss any different from loss of local scope variable names? 03:37:12 hmm, actually yeah those aren't generally available either :) 03:37:31 information about those is often available in the stack from the debugger 03:37:55 more readily than being able to see the vars of a closure that isnt' actually currently executing 03:38:07 enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-76-90-52-4.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:38:10 kpreid: I understand and I can appreciate that. one of the reasons I'm learning CL is for its debugger (just one of the many reasons, however :)) so I will make a mental note not to use lets over defuns :) 03:38:24 I stand convinced. 03:38:48 yeah, I haven't read the Let over Lambda book myself, but have been victim of the same sort of variable hiding problems 03:39:00 and the fact that when you reload, your old closures are completely lost 03:39:54 depending on the actual style used, you could find yourself restarting your entire lisp image more often rather than just having the ability to reload a fasl 03:39:55 what do you mean by "reload"? I'm new at this. 03:40:04 in slime, C-c C-k'ing a file 03:40:16 oh, ok. :) 03:40:51 so if you do (let (...) (defun ...)) and reload that, your closure will be reset 03:40:52 ah, but is he using slime? :) 03:41:15 if you didn't have the let, then the defuns could be replaced without affecting the data, letting you edit & continue in your debug/development cycles 03:42:04 kpreid: slime is my crutch. I've forgotten how to do manual compiles & loads :) (does asdf count?) 03:42:17 rien: seriously, are you using slime? if not, you should try it 03:44:14 kpreid: I am :)) 03:44:39 I'm following PCL and I knew about C-c C-k but I didn't quite catch that it was called "reload" 03:44:54 it's compile & load 03:45:01 there you go, then. 03:45:17 but you're "re-doing it" whenever you're in a running lisp, edit a file, and C-c C-k it in the same session 03:45:18 <_3b> it is only "re"load the second time :) 03:47:23 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 03:47:58 yeah I'll have to do that stuff myself before I really grok it (to see what you're talking about what happens to the closures) 03:49:54 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:55:30 Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.99.153] has joined #lisp 03:59:43 -!- mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:04:05 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:04:18 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@32-76-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:04:42 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.79.155] has joined #lisp 04:05:13 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:05:44 pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 04:10:11 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@74.209.54.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:13:07 -!- pizdets [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:14:59 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:16:33 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 04:17:50 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.84.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:19:45 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.84.218] has joined #lisp 04:21:24 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:21:24 -!- dberg` [~user@c-24-130-149-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:21:33 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 04:25:44 azaq231 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 04:27:53 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 04:29:28 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:30:09 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:32:58 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 04:34:14 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:34:33 lost4400 [~fringe@212.203.98.114] has joined #lisp 04:37:44 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:46:03 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 04:47:24 anybody familiar with debugging asdf problems? 04:47:39 usocket is spinning to death continually loading its .asd recursively 04:50:25 _reid [~reid@pool-108-10-28-113.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:55:23 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 04:56:47 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:56:59 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 04:57:34 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:58:09 -!- Jubb [~ghost@129.21.86.17] has quit [Quit: Jubb] 05:05:30 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:14:02 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 05:15:02 Phoodus: is it still spinning? 05:15:50 I think so. It 05:15:59 's not on my box, but on my coworkers 05:16:10 we have the same sbcl version, (require 'asdf)ing on both 05:16:16 mien works, his spins 05:16:47 can't he interrupt it and show the backtrace? 05:16:59 *Phoodus* is getting the stacktrace in a pastebin 05:18:12 Phoodus: random thought, is his disk full? 05:18:23 *gigamonkey* will fall off his chair if that's it. 05:19:34 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 05:20:56 jesusito [~user@91.pool85-49-229.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 05:21:46 http://paste.lisp.org/display/119843 05:21:58 -!- krfs [~jonata@189-16-43-233.cte.net.br] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 05:22:08 probably best to paste that back into emacs and get the syntax highlighting & kill the linewrap 05:22:20 but parsing the component tries to load the system 05:22:40 <_3b> any differences in .sbclrc ? 05:22:56 gigamonkey: nope, about 20GB free 05:22:57 Phoodus: what are the permissions on usocket.asd? 05:23:19 <_3b> #P"/home/..." ? 05:23:19 _3b: no, his is a subset of mine, just missing utility functions I haven't used in this session 05:23:23 yeah, some sanitizing :-P 05:23:26 <_3b> ok 05:24:07 permissions probably don't matter, i didn't look in the right place in the backtrace 05:25:14 I'm not an octal nut, but it's -rw-r--r-- 05:25:25 in the asdf source code, "parent" is nil because it's a system 05:25:40 then it does find-component, passing parent, which tries to load the system because parent is nil, infinitely recursing 05:26:06 I don't know how parent is supposed to become non-nil in that chain of execution, but I don't know if this is some sort of familiar gotcha case that others might have seen 05:26:21 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:26:32 (parent being in parse-component-form and find-component) 05:27:12 however, this is the only system it spins on. There are about 2 dozen others (ours and 3rd party) that load fine. This is the first one that's acted up 05:27:36 Does usocket depend on some non-Lisp thing? 05:27:45 Which perhaps you have and he's missing? 05:28:10 usocket depends on sb-bsd-sockets 05:28:18 it depends on split-sequence (which he has, all these 3rd party libs are in our local cvs), and sb's internal stuff 05:28:46 stassats`: is that a contrib that it would be possible to not have? 05:28:56 scheme 05:29:03 gigamonkey: yes 05:29:39 gigamonkey: but, since backtrace is from slime, it's not really possible 05:29:50 (to have slime without sb-bsd-sockets) 05:29:57 Right. 05:30:19 slolme 05:30:42 lost4400: please, stop 05:32:47 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.1.39.223] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 05:33:22 elitist... i quit bad mood, thx 05:33:25 -!- lost4400 [~fringe@212.203.98.114] has left #lisp 05:33:28 -!- Nipped [~Nipped@c-76-17-168-136.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:35:14 Phoodus: i'd try the latest ASDF version 05:38:20 it's sbcl 1.0.40.0.debian, which is a couple minor versions old by now 05:38:37 but we're all running on the same environment; that would mean a whole team change 05:38:49 but probably worth testing at least 05:40:52 and the latest usocket version too 05:41:06 this is the latest usocket, just trying it out for the first time 05:41:17 i meant from svn 05:42:55 *Phoodus* is reading through the mailing list to see if anything similar's been hit 05:44:27 Phoodus: so clearly there has to be some difference between your environment and his, right? 05:44:37 Have you looked at .sbclrc, etc. 05:44:45 yes 05:44:47 (to both) 05:45:14 evening 05:50:06 evening slyrus 05:50:22 hey gigamonkey, how are things? 05:50:41 Wet. 05:51:03 Phoodus: 2.011.3: fix infinite loop when a .asd file has a timestamp in the future. 05:51:14 yay! 05:51:34 *Phoodus* was diddling with the svn version, which had &optional and &key in the same function 05:51:35 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-76-90-52-4.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 05:52:12 so, does doing touch usocket.asd help? 05:52:16 yes 05:52:25 but then it undoes the fix when cvs touches it later 05:52:37 probably timezones, locales, whatever is mismatched 05:52:45 are your system clocks broken? 05:52:59 in any case, newer asdf has this fixed 05:53:12 so, you can happily live in the past and still use asdf 05:53:17 oh, that's an asdf changelog, not a usocket changelog? 05:53:24 Phoodus: right 05:54:14 thanks a ton 06:01:56 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sbahra] 06:02:16 Liera [~Liera@113.172.70.114] has joined #lisp 06:03:52 Nipped [~Nipped@c-76-17-168-136.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:07:14 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp 06:27:28 -!- azaq231 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:33:22 slash_ [~unknown@pD955E350.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:33:53 fmeyer [~fmeyer@li212-47.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 06:37:54 OK, who recommended QT? "The widget cannot be resized to a smaller size than the minimum widget size. The widget's size is forced to the minimum size if the current size is smaller." 06:38:31 gigamonkey: there was some nice snow on mt. tam today :) 06:38:57 beach: that doesn't seem terrible 06:39:02 so long as people don't misuse it 06:39:14 So, how did the widget get to have a smaller size than the minimum? Not by resizing it apparently. 06:39:25 o.o 06:41:16 beach: if it was one size and then you changed the minimum size 06:41:32 Oh, I get it [I think]. It should probably be "if, when the minimum size of the widget is changed, it then has a size which is smaller than the new minimum size, then its size is changed. 06:41:38 stassats`: right 06:43:24 Certainly not Common Lisp HyperSpec standard in that manual either. 06:43:49 you're picky! 06:44:35 stassats`: Not deliberately, but when I can't understand some wording I tend to think I must not be the only one who considers it unclear. 06:46:22 I understood that sentence, I must not be the only one who understood it 06:46:38 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-164-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:46:59 <_3b> seemed reasonable to me (at least from a user perspective, i could see it maybe not being clear enough from implementor perspective) 06:48:02 <_3b> 'widget is always at least minimum size' 06:48:29 even if it's unclear, that seems to be a bad reason to dismiss the whole Qt because of it 06:48:35 _3b: No, it explicitly says the contrary. 06:48:47 stassats`: I hadn't plan on doing that. 06:50:38 *planned 06:51:17 and CLHS got plenty of ambiguous passages 06:53:36 *beach* guesses that he became unintentionally picky like that by reading articles by PhD students that sometimes didn't prove what they thought. 06:54:36 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:54:54 Jamamooga [~Jamamooga@74-95-42-29-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 06:55:38 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@70.249.150.112] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 07:00:52 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:11:24 -!- _reid [~reid@pool-108-10-28-113.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:13:13 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 07:13:32 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA285F9.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 07:15:32 nowl [~nowl@c-71-233-2-216.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:16:59 -!- jesusito [~user@91.pool85-49-229.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 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mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 07:56:31 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 07:56:31 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:59:20 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:59:48 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 07:59:48 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 07:59:48 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 08:00:52 kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 08:00:58 good morning 08:02:48 bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.141.22] has joined #lisp 08:03:36 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:04:13 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 08:04:13 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 08:04:13 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 08:04:44 gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.203.161] has joined #lisp 08:11:54 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-146-214.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 08:14:49 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-78-35-180-66.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:16:32 jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-87.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:17:00 -!- Guest45870 [~longshot@180.184.10.145] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:17:05 homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-180-66.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:17:22 longshot [~longshot@216.131.74.24] has joined #lisp 08:18:26 -!- slash_ [~unknown@pD955E350.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:20:35 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@li212-47.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:21:52 hello kami 08:23:39 Hi beach. What I forgot to ask last time: have you continued with your 'standard CL libraries' project? 08:23:41 -!- pattern [~pattern@unaffiliated/pattern] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:23:42 pattern_ [~pattern@ool-45715287.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 08:25:47 gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-179-44-116.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:27:21 kami: SICL, yes, absolutely. Lately, I have been working on LOOP and the conditional macros (when, unless, cond, or, and, case, etc.). 08:27:23 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-217-28.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:28:53 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-164-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:30:59 kami: Would you like to take care of a module? 08:31:04 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:31:38 jesusito [~user@91.pool85-49-229.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 08:34:22 adu [~ajr@softbank220043139062.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 08:37:24 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-47-102.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:39:01 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:39:02 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.203.161] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:39:37 gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.203.161] has joined #lisp 08:40:54 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-42-212.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:40:54 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 08:41:06 -!- sako is now known as sako|away 08:42:00 -!- coldnew [~coldnew@ymu041-045.ym.edu.tw] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:43:21 beach: I doubt that I am proficient enough for that. 08:44:22 kami: Oh, I don't know about that. Something like packages should not be too hard. 08:46:50 that's how you become proficient, by doing something you're not proficient in 08:46:59 stassats`: true 08:47:23 -!- rdd` is now known as rdd 08:50:35 kami: What stassats` said, but also, most of it is pretty routine work, like writing docstring, specific conditions, condition reporters, and tests. 08:50:39 But reading the four sections of http://common-lisp.net/project/sicl/, I get quite depressed over the distance between those goals and the quality of the code that I currently write. 08:54:14 kami: The thing to do then is to submit your code here for comments. 08:55:33 There is no shame is writing bad code, as long as one is willing to improve one's skills. 08:55:33 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:57:22 beach: it somebody already using parts of it? (I'm trying to find out whether there would be deadlines involved) 08:57:42 *kami* cannot promise to deliver anything on time, currently 08:58:29 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:58:45 kami: There are no deadlines. I don't know if anybody is using any of the modules, other than perhaps mvilleneuve and _3b 09:01:12 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has joined #lisp 09:02:40 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 09:02:53 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 09:03:09 beach: may I then ask something even if it sounds heretic: wouldn't it be better to invest the manpower in improving an existing OSS implementation? 09:03:30 isn't that what this is about? 09:03:33 A 09:03:40 Ah, OK 09:04:20 So, the goal would be to drop in SICL for the lisp layers of SBCL? 09:04:24 One day? 09:04:24 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:04:27 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:04:52 it's not SBCL-specific 09:05:09 stassats`: sure. Just as an example. 09:07:53 kami: It would be nice if one day an existing implementation would stick in a SICL module, but I suspect the first customers will be people working on new implementations. 09:08:12 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 09:08:12 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 09:08:12 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 09:09:06 kami: But I am definitely trying to write the SICL modules so that it will be hard to resist replacing existing modules in existing implementations. 09:11:26 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:11:57 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 09:11:57 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 09:11:57 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 09:12:12 *beach* should make an SBCL .core file containing existing SICL modules and then use it by default. 09:13:20 H4ns` [~user@pD4B9EBD8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:13:35 beach: when I sometimes M-. a function and end up in the SBCL innards, I have the impression, that parts of it are not totally independent of the details of the implementation of the lower level parts 09:14:10 I often see conditionals related to the different build stages etc. 09:15:04 Is it possible to write a highly efficient standard lib without taking advantage of the details of the lower levels of the implementation? 09:15:20 kami: Right. When you set out to write an implementation from scratch, there is no incentive to make things implementation independent. It takes additional thinking to turn it into something portable. 09:16:09 kami: SICL tries to divide things into modules that can be written totally portably with little or no performance penalties, and those that must rely on implementation details. 09:16:41 beach: I see 09:16:47 soniaa [~fringe@212.203.98.114] has joined #lisp 09:16:50 -!- H4ns [~user@pD4B9EBE5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:16:53 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:19:00 kami: Take a thing like FORMAT for instance. The main purpose of it is to turn a control string into calls to more primitive functions like PRINC, etc. When the control string is constant, this can be done at compile time, using a compiler macro. There will very likely be absolutely no performance problems with such a thing, and it's a relatively large module. 09:19:26 kami: Or take LOOP. It's a macro, so most of the work is done at macro-expansion time, so no runtime performance penalties there either. 09:19:47 -!- nowl [~nowl@c-71-233-2-216.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:19:48 -!- soniaa [~fringe@212.203.98.114] has left #lisp 09:19:55 beach: right. I see your point. 09:20:04 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:20:13 beach: but in any case, I will currently have no time at all to jump into SICL. In my spare time, I'm trying to port some pre-cltl2 code to sbcl. 09:20:44 kami: No problem. Let me know if later you might be interested. 09:24:55 beach: will do. 09:30:38 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:33:17 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 09:33:22 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 09:34:18 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:36:59 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:41:01 ch077179 [~urs@adsl-84-227-25-16.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 09:43:12 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:43:58 -!- benny [~benny@i577A2027.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:45:14 *beach* wants to know what happens in common GUI toolkits when you put two gadgets in a vbox and one has a max width that is smaller than the other gadgets's min width, but can't find it in the documentation. 09:46:34 *_3b* would guess padding of some sort 09:53:47 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7570c2.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:59:56 Is there a problem with the most recent SBCL and CLX? 09:59:58 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:00:18 Hrm. Sorry. Next most recent. 10:00:29 <_3b> yes, use CVS or 1.0.44 10:00:31 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 10:00:51 <_3b> (or wait a few days for 1.0.46) 10:00:58 sbcl 1.0.46 is out already 10:01:02 sbcl.org says it's out. 10:01:08 <_3b> ah, no waiting then :) 10:01:15 Evidently not. 10:01:23 Today, even, so it's just bad timing. :p 10:01:47 tfb_ [~tfb@92.40.74.57.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:02:57 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 10:06:10 nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has joined #lisp 10:06:10 -!- nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has quit [Changing host] 10:06:10 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 10:07:40 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:10:13 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:15:10 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:16:22 benny 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[~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:28:59 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:29:13 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:31:52 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 11:32:16 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-146-214.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:33:34 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.99.153] has quit [Quit: ] 11:34:19 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-177-69.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 11:34:43 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-171-85.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 11:35:20 -!- macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-152-12.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 11:40:21 diegoviola [~diego@190.23.74.196] has joined #lisp 11:40:23 hi 11:44:01 -!- diegoviola [~diego@190.23.74.196] has left #lisp 11:49:33 RaceCondition [~erik@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe5ddc00-120.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 11:52:25 Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: mega1 p0wns hordes of C++ and Java programmers using his mad AI skillz (http://ai-contest.com/), ABCL 0.23.1, Bordeaux-Threads 0.8.0, CMUCL 20b, SBCL User Survey http://random-state.net/sbcl-survey-2010.html, SBCL 1.0.46 11:54:17 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe5ddc00-120.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:54:18 note to all MOP-lovers: SBCL 1.0.46.11 has my recent optimization work, making SLOT-VALUE &co much faster in the presense of SLOT-VALUE-USING-CLASS 11:56:10 *stassats`* is excited to test it 11:58:36 Ina [~Ina@75.127.71.73] has joined #lisp 11:59:03 -!- Ina [~Ina@75.127.71.73] has left #lisp 12:00:34 coldnew [~coldnew@ymu041-045.ym.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 12:04:26 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:04:28 -!- Pepe_ [~ppjet@bouah.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:04:31 RaceCondition [~erik@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe5ddc00-120.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 12:04:41 Pepe_ [~ppjet@bouah.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:58 -!- leo2007 [~leo@117.28.17.59] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.94.1] 12:05:07 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-164-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:06:50 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:08:01 davazp [~user@15.Red-83-57-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:13:16 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 12:17:22 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:25:21 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-130-64.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:47 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 12:28:28 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:30:09 loxs [~loxs@2002:4e5a:7cb3:0:224:d7ff:fe0a:73b4] has joined #lisp 12:32:38 Soulman [~knute@250.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 12:35:18 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 12:37:15 MoALTz [~no@92.9.79.177] has joined #lisp 12:39:56 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-77-24.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:42:32 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@122.169.69.185] has joined #lisp 12:42:32 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@122.169.69.185] has quit [Changing host] 12:42:32 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 12:43:14 vedm [~vedm@84-73-157-12.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 12:43:29 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 12:43:45 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has left #lisp 12:46:42 chxane [~chxane@c-76-124-17-190.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:49:10 -!- tfb_ [~tfb@92.40.74.57.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:49:12 -!- chxane [~chxane@c-76-124-17-190.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:49:32 chxane [~chxane@c-76-124-17-190.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:49:32 gabnet [~gabnet@236.63.193-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 12:49:32 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.203.161] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:50:02 gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.203.161] has joined #lisp 12:51:11 bhyde [~user@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:53:12 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-206-118.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 12:55:40 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:56:01 -!- vedm [~vedm@84-73-157-12.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 12:56:52 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 12:59:48 beach: Firefox is not made using GTK+, it just uses GTK+ to take on its looks (and to integrate the input method modules). But the layout is completely custom and independent of the GTK+ model 13:00:16 mats990 [~mats990@54-120.dsl.iskon.hr] has joined #lisp 13:00:25 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:00:34 mathrick: Ah, OK, thanks! 13:00:53 -!- mats990 [~mats990@54-120.dsl.iskon.hr] has quit [Client Quit] 13:02:23 mathrick: Do you know where I can read about the GTK+ layout model? The reference manual is no help. 13:02:23 -!- benny [~benny@i577A2E5D.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.2] 13:02:25 beach: as for toggling the buttons (I assume you're talking about the [x] button which disappears when the tabs get too small), it's not something you can just call a built-in method for, but IIRC it should be doable using the stock GtkNotebook widget 13:02:34 beach: yes, give me a sec 13:03:09 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:03:09 although keep in mind that GTK+ has _just_ been released, and one thing it did is to completely rewrite the layout model (to be more flexible) 13:03:15 GTK+ 3 I mean 13:03:29 TeMPOraL [~user@188.146.114.77.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has joined #lisp 13:03:55 beach: http://library.gnome.org/devel/gtk/unstable/ch25s02.html#id1630167 13:04:22 Thanks! 13:04:25 the new model is much more expressive, since it allows trading width for height (and vice-versa), as well as hinting the preferred sizes 13:04:30 which is exactly what you want 13:04:38 Right. 13:04:54 I wonder if the need for a rewrite the layout model is a sign of how hard it is to get it right. 13:06:02 beach: the gist of the GTK+ layout model is pretty simple. First each parent recursively determines its natural size (by asking its children what they'd want if given free reign), then in the second pass it allocates the actual size it got amongst its children 13:06:24 where the actual size might be either bigger or smaller than requested 13:06:34 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 13:06:42 beach: yes, it's not easy to get it right 13:06:51 oh, and you also want to look at GtkSize 13:07:19 hmm, my naming is wrong 13:07:24 mathrick: That part seems reasonable. What I want to know is how they deal with conflicting requests, such as vertically aligning things with different natural widths and stuff like that. 13:07:39 yvdriess [~Beef@83.101.33.59] has joined #lisp 13:07:42 beach: http://library.gnome.org/devel/gtk/unstable/GtkSizeGroup.html 13:08:00 this is what's missing from CSS for instance 13:08:10 CSS has no way to say "I want to be as wide as that other thing" 13:08:55 beach: that's largely the decision of individual widgets 13:09:15 and with the new model, you have more information to work with 13:09:21 Well, in css you'd do that by putting them in containers that constrain them to the same sizes. 13:09:47 Zhivago: but there's no way to do it short of specifying pixel sizes 13:10:17 I am still interested how you constain a widget of maximum size x to be larger than x. 13:10:24 beach: the pure, straightforward box model without width-for-height has problems with just that, deciding what to do with conflicting requirements 13:10:38 beach: could you rephrase the question? 13:10:47 I don't think I understand it 13:11:08 I'm coming to the conclusion that intelligent layout is probably a bad idea. 13:11:21 beach: btw, Qt's layout model is somewhat different (and at least I personally find it more annoying to work with, but that's probably up to your taste) 13:12:04 beach: GTK has nested boxes which slice the available area to allocate to children boxes 13:12:05 mathrick: The last page you show me says: group a number of widgets together "so that they request the same amount of space". This to me essentially means "do not respect the size requests of the individual widgets", which is an, um, interesting approach. 13:12:05 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 13:12:19 beach: oh, lemme explain how you use that 13:12:41 launch any GNOME dialogue box with more than one button 13:12:48 notice how they're all of the same size 13:13:14 similarly, when you have several input boxes one under another, they all have the same width 13:13:54 beach: a GtkSizeGroup makes all widgets report max(sizes) as their natural width 13:14:47 OK, thanks! 13:16:32 beach: as for Qt's layout model, it has widgets (which are visible things) and layouts (which are not visible and just used for containing widgets). To make things line up and adjust to different sizes, you put widgets inside layouts, and then pad the spaces between them with "spacers", which are spring-like entities that expand to request any extra available space 13:17:34 whereas in GTK+, the allocation of extra space is governed by the "expand" flag (actually, "child property", ie. the property of the parent-child connection and not any individual widget) of widgets 13:18:21 beach: speaking of which, you might want to consider reifying child properties in a similar manner, as it's pretty common to have a flag that only makes sense for a particular combination of parent/child and not any one of them separately 13:19:57 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 13:20:26 *Xach* is happy that 1.0.46 is out and clx works again 13:20:43 mathrick: I'll look into all that. 13:20:59 Xach: Definitely! 13:21:13 beach: sure. If you need any more GTK+ assistance, I'll be happy to help as much as I can 13:21:28 -!- The_Fellow [~spider1@62.219.129.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:22:01 beach: oh, and re: Firefox, that's one of the reasons GTK+ has strived pretty hard to make it possible to yank out GTK+ *looks* without committing to using its actual widgets or layout model 13:22:30 -!- parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:22:58 *Xach* fondly remembers when gtk was born 13:23:19 The_Fellow [~spider1@62.219.129.123] has joined #lisp 13:23:23 parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:23:23 Jini [~pidgin@109.225.24.190] has joined #lisp 13:23:55 ad__ [~chatzilla@178-27-16-38-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 13:26:08 GeneralMaximus [~general@122.173.228.236] has joined #lisp 13:26:27 Gmind [~Nevermind@113.190.160.167] has joined #lisp 13:27:03 -!- loxs [~loxs@2002:4e5a:7cb3:0:224:d7ff:fe0a:73b4] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:29:28 loxs [~loxs@2002:4e5a:7cb3:0:224:d7ff:fe0a:73b4] has joined #lisp 13:30:47 -!- Swappage [~chatzilla@dynamic-adsl-78-12-115-92.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Changing host] 13:30:47 Swappage [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/swappage] has joined #lisp 13:30:56 moah [~gnu@dslb-188-109-145-134.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:40 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:35:29 benny [~benny@i577A2E5D.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:35:29 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.203.161] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:36:24 gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.203.161] has joined #lisp 13:37:45 Agari [~Agari@180.Red-81-33-92.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:29 tompa [~thomas@90-231-183-240-no39.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 13:38:32 mathrick: Thanks for the offer. I just might take you up on that. 13:41:11 -!- kamikaza [~kamikaza@92.53.50.179] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:41:44 -!- loxs [~loxs@2002:4e5a:7cb3:0:224:d7ff:fe0a:73b4] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:42:57 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:43:10 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:43:32 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:07 corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:09 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.203.161] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:49:36 gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.203.161] has joined #lisp 13:50:44 -!- xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:00:11 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:03:39 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 14:03:46 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:04:21 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 14:04:43 -!- jamief [~user@158.223.51.80] has quit [Quit: Terminated with extreme prejudice - dircproxy 1.0.5] 14:08:08 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:08:39 jamief [~user@158.223.51.80] has joined #lisp 14:09:02 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 14:11:04 -!- Agari [~Agari@180.Red-81-33-92.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:13:02 Agari [~Agari@180.Red-81-33-92.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:27 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:22:28 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:23:46 Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.242.124] has joined #lisp 14:26:02 corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:49 fusss [~fusss@1.153.184.196] has joined #lisp 14:28:42 trivial question: you know how PRINT-UNREADABLE-OBJECT takes an :identity keyword argument, right? is there a portable facility for mapping object-->pointer/address? :-) 14:29:48 jweiss [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:30:03 I know the hashing algorithm is exposed via SXHASH, is a similar facility available for actual locations? 14:30:08 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:30:30 no 14:34:35 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:34:52 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:35:02 -!- emporas__ [~emporas@athedsl-20677.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 267 seconds] 14:35:17 corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:43 dnolen [~davidnole@70.249.150.112] has joined #lisp 14:36:44 -!- bhyde [~user@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:43:15 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:43:49 wait, PARSE-INTEGER can't read #xF00 in :radix 16 but it can read F00? Meaning, it doesn't understand the #x syntax? 14:44:10 (of course, specs is clear on that) 14:44:17 forgive me father for I'm an idiot 14:44:47 fuss: well, you could always parse the output of PRINT, but you'll have to be advised that the identity that is printed out is usually a pointer, and the next GC may invalidate it 14:45:20 easyE: ping 14:45:58 cmm-: yeah, just a fun hack, nothing life-critical 14:46:28 What additional magic do I need to make asdf:load-op work when I have a custom source file class? 14:47:24 kdr2 [~kdr2@123.122.107.249] has joined #lisp 14:47:25 -!- xinming_ [~hyy@122.238.74.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:47:38 rtoym: what do you have now ? 14:47:52 Hold on... 14:49:27 xinming [~hyy@122.238.76.158] has joined #lisp 14:49:53 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:13 http://paste.lisp.org/+2KFC/2 14:52:30 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 14:52:56 -!- kdr2 [~kdr2@123.122.107.249] has quit [Quit: ] 14:53:38 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:57 rtoym: intern fortran-file in package :asdf and put the code in the system :fortran-file 14:55:35 nikodemus: I think you failed to type "/topic " a while ago 14:55:46 rtoym: the system using it will :defsystem-depends-on (:fortran-file) and use :fortran-file instead of :file 14:56:09 rtoym: and that will only work on ASDF2 14:56:36 fe[nl]ix: Ah, thanks! I fixed similar issues in other palces, but forgot that one. 14:57:54 kpreid: so i did, thanks! 14:58:24 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:59:19 and it's +t, and new news are at the front 14:59:33 fe[nl]ix: Hmm. That still doesn't work. load-op does nothing. Compile-op doesn't work either. But compile-op with :force t works. 14:59:38 and it's ops only, it seems 14:59:52 i wonder if i still have ops... 15:00:33 z0d [~z0d@artifact.hu] has joined #lisp 15:00:34 -!- z0d [~z0d@artifact.hu] has quit [Changing host] 15:00:34 z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 15:00:46 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 15:00:48 -!- kruft` [~user@c-98-214-105-38.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:00:52 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o nikodemus 15:01:02 -!- nikodemus changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: SBCL 1.0.46, mega1 p0wns hordes of C++ and Java programmers using his mad AI skillz (http://ai-contest.com/), ABCL 0.23.1, Bordeaux-Threads 0.8.0, CMUCL 20b 15:01:19 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o nikodemus 15:01:21 kruft` [~user@c-98-214-105-38.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:29 yay new SBCL :) 15:01:52 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.242.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:02:08 what do you mean? it's always new 15:02:09 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.203.161] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:02:26 obligatory "but I just built SBCL (1- (parse-float (lisp-implementation-version)))" 15:02:44 gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.203.161] has joined #lisp 15:03:25 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:38 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:50 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@183.106.96.22] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:04:22 setmeaway [setmeaway3@183.106.96.22] has joined #lisp 15:05:21 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:06:10 http://paste.lisp.org/+2KFC/3 shows the defsystems. So load-op will load up the mach-par files, but nothing else. 15:09:28 The_Fellow2 [~spider1@62.219.129.123] has joined #lisp 15:10:06 krfs [~jonata@189-16-43-233.cte.net.br] has joined #lisp 15:11:15 -!- The_Fellow [~spider1@62.219.129.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:13:44 -!- gabnet [~gabnet@236.63.193-77.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 15:16:01 carlocci [~nes@93.37.206.168] has joined #lisp 15:16:40 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:19:17 LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-95-153.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:21 Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.242.124] has joined #lisp 15:24:39 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:26:09 homie` [~user@xdsl-78-35-142-108.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:26:43 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:49 katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 15:26:49 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 15:26:49 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 15:27:02 jesusito` [~user@219.pool85-49-239.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 15:27:57 -!- jesusito [~user@251.pool85-54-37.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Disconnected by services] 15:28:02 -!- jesusito` is now known as jesusito 15:29:19 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-180-66.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:31:39 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:31:43 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:32:14 -!- k3yb1n [~abfen@host-190-11-73-166.supernet.com.bo] has left #lisp 15:34:33 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has joined #lisp 15:35:13 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 15:35:52 -!- davazp [~user@15.Red-83-57-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:36:43 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:54 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:40:37 rtoym: do you have a test file ? 15:40:55 What kind of test file? 15:41:03 fortran 15:41:11 But I think I found the problem: Don't define my own output-files method. 15:41:43 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:44 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:43:45 load-op seems to work now. 15:45:04 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 15:45:31 tronador_ [~guille@190.253.148.80] has joined #lisp 15:46:43 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:46:49 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:46:57 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@83.101.33.59] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:49:37 fe[nl]ix: Thanks for your help. Everything seems to be working now. The important point was making sure everything is in the right package. 15:49:52 And no output-files method unless you know what you're doing. :-) 15:49:59 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:52:58 -!- chxane [~chxane@c-76-124-17-190.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:53:48 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-206-118.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 15:53:49 spacemanaki [~spacemana@cpe-68-175-63-237.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:55:28 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.203.161] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:56:44 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:02:54 confounds [~confounds@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:03:16 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 16:03:38 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:49 -!- fusss [~fusss@1.153.184.196] has left #lisp 16:04:24 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.206.168] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 16:06:56 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@dsl51B6154C.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 16:06:56 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@dsl51B6154C.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Changing host] 16:06:56 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:08:38 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:59 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:12:46 pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:ddfc] has joined #lisp 16:16:10 morning 16:19:03 longshot_ [~longshot@180.184.10.145] has joined #lisp 16:19:27 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:19:30 -!- longshot_ is now known as Guest69870 16:20:39 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:21:46 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.215.146] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 16:21:58 -!- longshot [~longshot@216.131.74.24] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:22:38 Phillip [~Phillip@c-75-72-99-111.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:24:23 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:26:26 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 16:26:37 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:16 -!- coldnew [~coldnew@ymu041-045.ym.edu.tw] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:29:43 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:26 -!- sako|away is now known as sako 16:31:42 -!- hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441327.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:32:22 hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441327.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:32:54 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:33:06 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 16:35:17 silenius [~silenus@p4FC22773.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:45 jdz [~jdz@host78-104-dynamic.15-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:36:22 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 16:38:59 -!- beach [~user@116.118.10.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:40:48 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp2364.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 16:41:43 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:09 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:45:41 -!- sako is now known as sako|away 16:46:13 yvdriess [~Beef@83.101.33.59] has joined #lisp 16:46:19 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:46:43 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:27 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:47:36 timack [~tim@hlfx50-2-142177100214.ppp-dynamic.dial.ns.bellaliant.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:23 -!- jesusito [~user@219.pool85-49-239.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:48:39 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 16:50:37 Tordek [~tordek@2001:470:dc50:b0::21] has joined #lisp 16:51:34 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:51:48 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:37 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:53:31 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:55:29 wait, PARSE-INTEGER can't read #xF00 in :radix 16 but it can read F00? Meaning, it doesn't understand the #x syntax? <-- #x is a reader macro... 16:56:30 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 16:56:48 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:20 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:58:34 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:59:09 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:59:50 Bronsa [~brace@host55-120-dynamic.52-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:00:23 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 17:00:42 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:01:26 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host55-120-dynamic.52-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 17:01:43 Bronsa [~brace@host55-120-dynamic.52-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:01:52 -!- Phillip 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[~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:39 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:59:07 blackwre [~blackwre@host86-171-132-115.range86-171.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:00:07 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-130-64.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:04 ah, sprayzor figured out why I was having trouble with adjust-array (and alexandria's copy-array) the other day 18:03:19 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:03:23 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:18 nowhereman [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-111-61.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:04:46 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:07:10 -!- nowhere_man [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-111-253.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:08:23 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:09:27 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 18:10:19 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:12:52 adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:06 the bug doesn't sound right to me -- or at least the reasoning doesn't 18:13:13 adjust-array changes array types all the time 18:13:17 hey all. 18:13:49 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:13:52 Do any of you know of any blog platforms / hosting with good code display and good math display? 18:14:20 I'm thinking of starting a numerical programming blog, and I have no idea where to start. 18:15:16 slyrus: e.g. (adjust-array <(simple-vector 4)> :dimensions (2 2)) => (array * (2 2)) ; look, different type 18:15:29 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:15:39 Krystof: how about the make-array example I cited in the bug? 18:16:27 (describe (make-array '(16 16) :displaced-to (make-array '(16 16)))) 18:16:48 Adjustable: yes 18:17:05 as opposed to (describe (make-array '(16 16))) which is not adjustable 18:17:08 what is the problem? 18:17:21 it is implementation-defined whether any array is actually adjustable 18:17:39 great, let's define our implementation to make this one not adjustable and it will be a simple-array 18:17:39 that behaviour for displaced arrays has been the case for the last 10 years at least 18:17:59 I don't understand what the problem is 18:18:17 I certainly don't understand what I've done to deserve snark on this channel, and so I no longer care as of right now 18:18:21 the adjust-array as a poor-man's copy-array can't return a simple-array 18:18:26 snark? 18:18:52 I didn't mean to be snarky 18:19:16 ok, sorry 18:19:31 this whole channel is supposed to be snarky, or so i'm told 18:19:40 I was serious about changing the behavior of make-array such that it returns a non-adjustable array unless it needs to 18:20:04 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.253.148.80] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 18:20:10 I ran into this problem last week or so but never tracked down the source of the problem 18:20:29 what problem? 18:21:06 I suppose that's a good question. The first "problem" was that alexandria:copy-array wasn't giving me back a simple array 18:21:07 so far all I know is that there's some vague complaint about some poor language in the spec that cannot possibly be implemented 18:21:29 was the argument to copy-array a simple-array in the first place? 18:21:31 peeling back the onion reveals that make-array of a displaced-array always (?) yields an adjustable-array 18:21:33 yes 18:22:04 were that not the case, yes, expecting a smiple-array would be crazy 18:22:06 simple 18:22:21 in this case, it's perhaps not "correct" but not necessarily "crazy" neither 18:23:23 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:40 rvirding [~chatzilla@h134n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 18:24:02 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-95-153.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:24:22 -!- naryl1 is now known as naryl 18:24:24 so, I think that the bug report is bogus but that there is a problem with adjust array 18:24:26 but not with make-array 18:24:47 yes, the problem is with make-array 18:24:53 no, the problem is not with make-array 18:25:05 the problem is with adjust-array, but not in the way described in the bug report 18:26:14 so (make-array '(16 16) :displaced-to (make-array '(16 16))) can't return a simple-array because it's displaced? 18:26:56 it seems to me that that's an implementation choice we could choose to make 18:27:30 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 18:27:47 "The type of an array that is not displaced to another array, has no fill pointer, and is not expressly adjustable is a subtype of type simple-array." 18:28:06 NB "not displaced to another array" 18:28:22 I quote, of course, from the spec page for SIMPLE-ARRAY 18:29:10 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:29:12 that's not required, or is it? 18:29:38 sure, that's a subtype, but there can be other subtypes of simple-array 18:30:08 Amadiro_ [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp2364.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 18:30:09 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:30:14 "It is implementation-dependent whether displaced arrays, vectors with fill pointers, or arrays that are actually adjustable are simple arrays." 18:30:41 that's from Note, so it's only described which arrays are simple, but not which aren't 18:31:50 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has quit [Quit: be back later] 18:31:54 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp2364.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:32:45 josemanuel [~josemanue@119.252.217.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:33:23 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:35 ok. If you want to make displaced arrays simple arrays, bearing in mind you need an indirection to get at the data vector, you have just slowed down every single array access in the system 18:33:46 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:33:54 -!- scode [~scode@hyperion.scode.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:34:24 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@188.146.114.77.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:34:51 zecaurubu [b11104a9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.177.17.4.169] has joined #lisp 18:35:24 you can't make displaced-to arrays magically faster just by calling them "simple" 18:35:46 what you can do to fix what is probably a bug in adjust-array is to make it pay attention to whether :displaced-to is nil or not 18:36:02 which would then give you the simple-array -> simple-array copy that you want 18:36:46 MORE MAGIC 18:37:38 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:38:32 -!- blackwre [~blackwre@host86-171-132-115.range86-171.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: blackwre] 18:38:56 I thought this bug was all about cases where displaced-to had been specified, so that wouldn't matter 18:39:22 carlocci [~nes@93.37.178.99] has joined #lisp 18:40:03 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:40:26 (at least that's what the referenced copy-array in alexandria is doing) 18:40:48 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:27 and I thought a displaced-array could be a simple-array, with the right support from the implementation. Krystof has convinced me that this is unwise. 18:41:32 tronador_ [~guille@190.253.148.80] has joined #lisp 18:43:30 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: Changing server] 18:44:09 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:44:58 sure, but krystof is saying there's a bug in adjust-array, and I don't understand what bug :-) 18:45:44 -!- udzinari` [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:48:48 jsnell: i don't think we want out arrays to be adjustable unless explicily requested. (they're allowed to be, though) 18:48:55 our, even 18:49:10 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 18:50:11 algorist [~quassel@host127-230-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:50:16 hi 18:50:53 hi 18:51:09 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:51:17 ok 18:51:38 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:39 yes, hello. 18:51:48 we can hear you 18:52:05 of course adjust-array doesn't provide an adjustable &key arg... 18:52:53 -!- adu [~ajr@softbank220043139062.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 18:53:01 so, in my case, I want a simple-array so it's fast, but you can imagine someone wanting an adjustable array back from adjust-array 18:53:03 hrm... 18:53:07 slyrus: yeah, that would be weird (: 18:53:27 (except a-a would return a copy with the parameters, IIUC. hm.) 18:55:54 scode [~scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 18:57:30 Dranik [~dim@109.126.190.143] has joined #lisp 18:57:34 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:57:44 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:58:02 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 18:58:08 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:02:50 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:04:33 "There are at least 110 messages of discussion preceding this version of the proposal. It does not seem feasible to summarize them here." -- from the discussion of adjust-array-not-adjustable 19:05:08 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has joined #lisp 19:05:18 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 19:06:02 haha :-) 19:06:38 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:14 -!- cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-4a5978f2.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:08:37 cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-4a5978f2.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:10 I've marked that bug as invalid. I don't see how we can justify a switch to a non-adjustable array coming back from adjust-array of an array that's displaced to a simple array 19:11:50 perhaps an SSC would ask: "excuse me sir/madam, in which way are you misusing adjust-array? are you using it because there's no copy-array function or because you would like an adjustable version of your simple-array?" 19:12:47 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:13:13 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@dsl5402B4B3.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 19:13:13 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@dsl5402B4B3.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Changing host] 19:13:13 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 19:15:04 jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-101.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:15:27 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp 19:15:32 sabalaba [~sabalaba@173-10-44-57-Michigan.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:34 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:19:44 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:22:43 -!- Nipped [~Nipped@c-76-17-168-136.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Organize your IRC] 19:23:18 TeMPOraL [~user@178.182.136.177.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has joined #lisp 19:23:45 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:24:43 jesusito [~user@219.pool85-49-239.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 19:27:51 slyrus: actually, an sb-ext:copy-array that would be efficient would be a neat thing -- and not too hard 19:28:01 the only question is how deep to copy displaced arrays 19:28:23 (and how wide, if they're displaced to a subset of the underlying array) 19:29:01 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has left #lisp 19:29:01 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:29:04 -!- Dranik [~dim@109.126.190.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:31:10 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-171-85.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:31:18 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:31:40 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 19:34:47 qiangwang` [~Administr@119.253.32.186] has joined #lisp 19:36:02 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:38:33 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:38:46 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:39:40 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host55-120-dynamic.52-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:40:12 -!- qiangwang` [~Administr@119.253.32.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:42:08 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:43 dkasak_ [~dkasak@93.138.146.93] has joined #lisp 19:42:54 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-126-17.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:44:09 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@119.252.217.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 19:44:52 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 19:45:30 -!- dkasak [~dkasak@78-1-166-181.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:45:32 -!- chemuduguntar [~ravi@118-92-4-220.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:47:23 -!- tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 19:48:17 C-c RET shows the macro expansion in one line. PCL says I have to eval (setf *print-pretty* t) but I've done so in my .lisp file, at the CL-USER prompt and even in my *scratch* buffer but I still get the macroexpand in one line 19:48:19 enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-76-245-60-219.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:20 tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has joined #lisp 19:49:10 macroexpansion of what? 19:49:41 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@178.182.136.177.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:49:47 of the macro PCL uses as an example - do-primes 19:50:30 > http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/macros-defining-your-own.html 19:51:46 that's because it fits on one line 19:54:09 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:55:10 if I resize so that it doesn't fit and then C-c RET again it still prints in one wrapped line. oh well 19:55:29 what do you resize? 19:55:36 my emacs window 19:55:40 uhm... frame 19:56:13 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@83.101.33.59] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:56:18 it doesn't affect it in any way 19:56:31 clhs *print-right-margin* 19:56:42 francogrex [~user@109.130.144.178] has joined #lisp 19:57:07 manually typing out (macroexpand '(do-primes ... at the prompt formats everything prettily. but if I type macroexpand-1 instead then it comes out in one line again (it's less code, of course) 19:58:22 LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-95-153.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:47 stassats`: *print*right-margin* indeed. if I change it to 40 then it prints the line prettily. 19:59:12 it always prints it pretty 19:59:24 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:28 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:00:33 by pretty I mean in several lines. when *print-right-margin* is nil it prints that do-primes expansion in one line 20:00:38 I've set it to 70 now 20:00:41 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read 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[~gravicapp@ppp85-141-164-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:10:20 stassats`: thanks :) 20:10:48 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:10:58 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:11:05 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:12:35 -!- Agari [~Agari@180.Red-81-33-92.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:13:04 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:13:14 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:18:07 simo163 [~quassel@85.136.15.136.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 20:20:41 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:21:13 aidalgol [aidan@2002:453d:f72::1337:3] has joined #lisp 20:23:25 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@70.249.150.112] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 20:24:04 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 20:25:31 something like (adjust-array ) has a licence to return a simple array, doesn't it? 20:25:43 sorry about the disconnects; I'm suffering from eating dogfood 20:26:37 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:45 to get an adjustable version of your simple-array, isn't that (make-array dimensions :adjustable t :initial-contents simple-array)? 20:26:52 gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-179-44-116.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:57 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-164-3.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:27:04 so (adjust-array [no other args]) can always return a simple array 20:27:08 that's what I think I'm thinking 20:27:33 *_3b* thought :initial-contents didn't accept multidimensional arrays? 20:27:38 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-101.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:28:12 you're right 20:29:31 I no longer know what I think 20:31:34 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:32:13 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:32:28 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 20:32:29 gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 20:33:34 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.79.155] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:34:02 -!- moah [~gnu@dslb-188-109-145-134.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 20:34:03 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.88.57] has joined #lisp 20:35:22 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:35:40 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:36:24 but :initial-contents can be displaced from simple-array 20:36:38 which is what my copy-array ended up doing 20:37:07 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:37:17 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:37:33 dnolen [~davidnole@70.249.150.112] has joined #lisp 20:38:30 mrbug [~mrbug@unaffiliated/mrbug] has joined #lisp 20:39:04 emporas [~emporas@athedsl-167866.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 20:39:40 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:39:47 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:39:52 -!- Joreji [~thomas@79-125.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:40:27 sort of anyway 20:40:44 -!- mrbug [~mrbug@unaffiliated/mrbug] has left #lisp 20:41:01 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:41:38 -!- ilmari [ilmari@knuth.ping.uio.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:41:46 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:42:00 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:42:23 no, I didn't. nvm... 20:44:02 if only I had the time to spend on this problem 20:44:15 my younger self would relish drawing up a table of all the different possibilities and use cases 20:45:32 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:48:20 http://paste.lisp.org/display/119851 20:50:08 -!- spacemanaki [~spacemana@cpe-68-175-63-237.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: spacemanaki] 20:51:19 milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 20:51:50 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:54:07 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 20:55:03 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: Return to the Shadows -- http://www.rtts.org/ -- Latest version: v1.2 -- Enjoy!] 20:55:23 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 20:56:19 i strongly suspect that messing with initial-contents is suboptimal currently: you're liable to end up disabling a MAKE-ARRAY transform 20:56:21 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.144.178] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:56:56 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:57:30 milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 20:57:31 Joreji [~thomas@79-125.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:58:32 adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:04 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 21:02:57 blackwre [~blackwre@host86-171-132-115.range86-171.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:06:45 -!- simo163 [~quassel@85.136.15.136.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:08:40 TeMPOraL [~user@188.146.241.116.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has joined #lisp 21:09:13 Phoodus [~foo@ip68-231-47-70.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:21 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:09:33 spacemanaki [~spacemana@cpe-68-175-63-237.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:11:23 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:12:38 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:13:56 -!- jesusito [~user@219.pool85-49-239.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:14:39 milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 21:18:23 Okay, what's state of the art for producing diagrams programatically, in Lisp or otherwise? 21:18:27 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey 21:18:44 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:18:44 Metapost? Vecto? 21:18:54 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:19:14 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 21:19:47 dot ? 21:20:48 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:21 what kind of diagrams? 21:21:36 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:41 slyrus: for starters, things like box and arrow diagrams of cons cells. 21:22:08 But potentially also things a bit more artistic. 21:22:10 isn't there some cool ascii-art cons cell thing? 21:22:19 milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 21:22:29 I think pjb made one 21:22:52 I have my dusty old cl-pdf code I used to make diagrams for PCL. Maybe I should dust it off. 21:24:11 gigamonkey: Gentle has a copy 21:25:54 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:39 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:28:51 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@173-10-44-57-Michigan.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:29:43 -!- pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:30:54 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:59 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:31:33 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 21:31:39 pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 21:32:40 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:32:45 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.242.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:33:57 adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:59 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:34:36 Agari [~Agari@180.Red-81-33-92.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:51 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:40:40 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:43:35 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has quit [Quit: be back later] 21:44:27 Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.242.124] has joined #lisp 21:47:10 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has joined #lisp 21:48:09 mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has joined #lisp 21:48:16 hello lispers! 21:48:59 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:27 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:49:56 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 21:49:56 It would be nice to a domain specific language in Lisp for describing box and line diagrams, but I guess that PIC / TROFF suggests that would be hard? 21:53:34 -!- blackwre [~blackwre@host86-171-132-115.range86-171.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: blackwre] 21:56:11 gah 21:57:00 Having trouble with a loop construct hoping someone might have an insight. 21:57:04 http://paste.lisp.org/+2KH9 21:57:58 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:58:50 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.242.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:02:28 -!- pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:02:40 lanthan_afh [~ze@80.64.176.30] has joined #lisp 22:03:08 Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.242.124] has joined #lisp 22:03:26 -!- jdz [~jdz@host78-104-dynamic.15-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:04:14 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:04:33 beach [~user@116.118.6.174] has joined #lisp 22:04:42 Good morning everyone! 22:04:56 hello beach 22:05:05 <|3b|> mon_key: have you looked at cl-interpol? 22:06:16 chitech` [~xxx@85.218.156.170] has joined #lisp 22:07:02 |3b|: not with intentionality :) I guess I should. I'm sure there are existing bolt-on solutions. Was trying to implement with minimal dependencies (as a personal exercise). Pretty sure an edi-ware regexp based solution might work as well :) 22:07:06 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 22:07:59 <|3b|> seems like it would be nicer to use the more common \n etc rather than something that sort of looks like #x reader macro but isn't 22:08:16 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:08:55 Xach deserves to be nominated for "software of the decade award" for quicklisp! 22:09:21 e.g. (ql:quickload :cl-interpol) was instant gratification :) 22:09:24 <|3b|> for example, how do you distinguish #xa from #xa0 from #xa followed by 0 22:10:14 <|3b|> or #x7 and #x7f (missing # in the code btw) 22:11:09 |3b|: good question! I hadn't gotten that far. Xach's suggestion yesterday was that I might use keyword style markers e.g. ":cr", ":lf", ":vt", etc. 22:11:27 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 22:12:17 Jubb [~ghost@129.21.84.78] has joined #lisp 22:12:18 -!- lanthan_afh [~ze@80.64.176.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:12:27 |3b| #x7f is present AFAIK 22:12:36 <|3b|> pasted code has x7f 22:12:50 |3b|: ah. sorry. 22:12:50 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:13:25 |3b|: Looked right at it to verify and still missed it! 22:13:59 <|3b|> seems like any variable length markers without delimiters or explicit length will be unreliable 22:16:20 <|3b|> and once you can determine the length of the token, you can look it up directly rather than looping over the hash table 22:16:34 |3b|: Yeah. the whole thing is as a "compatibility" option for elisp style `concat'. If i ignore NBSP, ESC, SPC and and #\RUBOUT the variable length thing might not pose that big a problem though. 22:16:48 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-95-153.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:17:02 LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-95-153.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:29 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.242.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:17:52 corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:18:05 -!- Amadiro_ [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp2364.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:18:31 <|3b|> also missing some way to put a literal # character in the string 22:18:39 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp2364.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 22:18:57 adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:19:03 |3b|: Skipping the loop over the hash means iterating char by char instead yes? 22:19:10 <|3b|> well, a reliable way, since i guess you can put them in now, it will just break sometimes depending on what is after it :p 22:19:44 <|3b|> iterating char by char sounds like the saner option in general 22:20:00 I should paste the existing `concat' one sec. 22:20:19 *|3b|* notes that SEARCH will probably be iterating close to char by char anyway, for each token that doesn't match 22:21:06 -!- basho__ [~basho__@dslb-092-076-067-054.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:21:19 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:22:42 davazp [~user@15.Red-83-57-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:09 <|3b|> actually, thinking about it more, the whole thing starts to sound like a bad idea... should be doing this replacement stuff at read time (which again points to cl-interpol) 22:24:54 <|3b|> since if every call to concat messes with #, you can't reliably escape it at all 22:25:34 ok added the concat fun http://paste.lisp.org/+2KH9/1 22:26:29 |3b| Not every call to concat is intended to frob #**, only when an :frob-literals key is toggled. 22:26:52 <|3b|> right, but what if you want to concat something already fobbed with something not? 22:27:23 then you encounter quadratic behaviour? 22:27:47 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:28:00 (concat (concat "#ac bubba" " not bubba") "#ac " "more bubba" :frob-literals t) 22:28:20 <|3b|> ok, now put a literal # in one of those strings 22:28:38 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:28:40 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:28:54 <|3b|> (concat (concat "##" "xabc" :frob t) "#a" :frob t) 22:29:21 <|3b|> assuming ## expands to a single # 22:29:35 fantazo [~fantazo@178-190-236-229.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 22:29:47 Then I'm hosed. but this happens as well for most chars needing escaping no? 22:30:02 <|3b|> not if you unescape them at read time 22:30:54 I'm def. looking at interpol etc. At this point I'm simply curious as to what is the best way to implement an elisp style concat... 22:31:13 *|3b|* suspects elisp doesn't process them in concat either 22:31:45 <|3b|> concat just sees strings with embedded control chars, which were converted from \n or whatever when the string was read 22:31:55 indeed concat is in src/fns.c 22:32:44 This shouldn't mean the behaviour can not be mimicd in CL. readtables? 22:32:48 <|3b|> note that (length "\n") => 1 22:33:21 are CL strings null-terminated internally? Just curious 22:33:42 enthymeme: unspecified 22:33:43 Yes. and their is not a CL equivalent e.g. (length "~%") 22:33:46 <|3b|> enthymeme: i'd expect not, or at least not visibly 22:34:13 (length #\newline) => error 22:34:14 |3b|: your question is meaningless. 22:34:38 (length (format nil ">~A<" #\Nul)) --> 3 22:35:11 You can insert a new line in a string by just typing a new line in a string. 22:35:11 |3b|: SBCL has null-terminated strings, don't know about others 22:35:14 <|3b|> mon_key: cl-interpol would be the CL equivalent, using something other than " to read strings with special characters that need parsing 22:35:29 <|3b|> pjb: which question? 22:35:36 About null-termination of strings. 22:35:49 <|3b|> pjb: ah, so not my question then? 22:36:02 Oops. 22:36:13 |3b|: I hear you about cl-interpol I will indeed take a look. 22:36:14 --> enthymeme 22:36:18 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:36:25 mmm 22:36:49 not sure I know format well enough to understand. 22:37:22 <|3b|> enthymeme: pjb is saying you can embed nul characters in a CL string 22:37:22 enthymeme: (let ((s (make-string 3))) (setf (aref s 0) #\> (aref s 1) #\Nul (aref s 2) #\<) (length s)) --> 3 22:37:24 -!- chitech` [~xxx@85.218.156.170] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:37:37 corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:50 oh, okay 22:38:19 -!- myu2 [~myu2@x108121.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:38:48 gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.200.84] has joined #lisp 22:40:04 enthymeme: and what's more, there's no way to conformingly access the memory beyond the string length. So sbcl might store some zero bit there, but it's totally immaterial to lisp programs (that might be useful to C programs called thru FFI, who knows, but we're in #lisp). 22:41:49 Is there no portable way to implement C *style* escaped chars in CL strings without modifing the reader? 22:42:09 gigamonkey: dot is the current diagramming thingy of choice I think 22:42:15 mon_key: passing them to a function that parses them? 22:42:16 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 22:42:22 mon_key: What do you need them for? 22:42:51 mon_key: you can write a reader macro function to replace the one bound to #\" so that you can read string literals with interpreted \ escape sequences. 22:43:28 I don't know what you mean by "without modifying the reader". 22:43:34 pjb: Thanks, thats what I'm asking. 22:43:46 -!- zecaurubu [b11104a9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.177.17.4.169] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:43:56 mon_key: There might be an easier solution, depending on what you want to do. 22:44:08 mon_key: you can find a couple of such a reader macro in cll. 22:44:38 pjb: without temporarilly modifying readers notion of escape syntax. 22:44:46 pjb: that's fine, I wasn't planning on doing anything with it. 22:44:50 The lisp reader has no notion of escape syntax. 22:44:51 If I recall correctly the behavior of fallthrough in scheme if a cond statement doesn't have an else clause is undefined, as well 22:45:24 It's the reader macro for #\" that processes \" and \\ inside the string literals. 22:45:35 enthymeme: in CL it's defined. 22:45:45 (cond) is a valid form returning nil. 22:45:55 beach: I'm mostly just curious. Having looked at various attempts at implementing an elisp in CL the string routines are usually the most non-compatible. 22:46:52 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:47:05 mon_key: For things in CL that require constant strings, such as docstrings, I use #.(format nil "...") where "..." contains format directives. 22:47:12 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-164-3.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:47:19 lambda-avenger [~roman@adsl-99-20-129-25.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:20 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:47:26 mathrick: yeah, I think I need something more freeform than dot, though it's awesome when that's what you want. 22:47:29 pjb: That is the cruxt of my question. Does not the spec suggest that "#\" can not be portably modified. E.g. it is not reserved for user? 22:47:43 Basically I need a drawing tool that I control with code rather than a mouse. 22:47:43 I don't think so. 22:47:56 gigamonkey: oh, what do you need to do exactly? 22:47:58 You can modify the readtable however you want. 22:48:10 beach: Yes, and I've stolen your fundoc for my own uses :) 22:48:15 IIRC, dot has a variety of operating modes / frontends, some of which are more manual than others 22:48:28 mathrick: well, vaguely, create diagrams, simple line art, for my magazine. 22:48:29 s/dot/graphviz/ 22:48:33 mon_key: Oh, OK. 22:48:34 dot is one of the frontends 22:49:08 gigamonkey: then take a look at the full suite graphviz offers. It's more than just dot in fully automatic mode 22:49:10 davazp` [~user@15.Red-83-57-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:49:12 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-38-142-34.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:49:16 mathrick: I will, thanks. 22:49:22 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 22:49:27 -!- davazp` [~user@15.Red-83-57-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:49:33 -!- davazp [~user@15.Red-83-57-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:49:48 davazp [~user@15.Red-83-57-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:49:53 -!- krfs [~jonata@189-16-43-233.cte.net.br] has left #lisp 22:50:53 pjb: Obv. one can... But in so much as it isn't provided for user-code is it portable? 22:51:15 Are you trying to read Common Lisp code or emacs lisp code? 22:51:45 Notice that in emacs lisp (not (eq 'abc 'ABC)) 22:51:53 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A7306.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:52:34 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:55:18 <|3b|> mon_key: modifying the read table should be portable 22:56:00 For example, given tha the standard lisp reader macro for #\" specifies only \" and \\ as exceptional cases, any other \x producing x, it would be good style to avoid inserting backslashes in strings not followed by a backslash or double-quote. 22:56:04 <|3b|> just don't expect other people's code to READ properly if you change standard macro characters 22:56:16 pjb: Really its an exercise in comparative lispology I've found to be informative. I don't have a specific use case. I've looked at pjb code, hemlock (current/cmucl era) code, same steingold's elisp compat, lice, etc. 22:56:38 Therefore any reader macro that implements additionnal backslash sequences should be able to read normal lisp strings. 22:57:15 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 22:57:51 quodlibetor [~user@user-12lc7vm.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:59 Implementations themselves add sometimes such extensions. For example, #P in clisp (and now some other implementations) interpret a prefix ~/ as the user homedir. (Granted, under physical pathname syntax allowances). 22:58:12 pjb: FWIW I also considered using `#?' 22:58:30 Again, the question is whether you want to read emacs lisp, or something else. 22:58:36 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-38-142-34.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:58:40 <|3b|> if the goal is to use extra escape in CL code, it is probably better to use something other than ", but if you want to READ something other than CL code, replacing " temporarily is fine 22:58:41 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 22:59:13 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp 22:59:26 Since, given the above good style of avoiding \x in Common Lisp strings, you can use the emacs lisp syntax for string literal in an 'upwardly compatible' way, there's no reason not to use #\". 23:00:38 pjb: Thanks. I just got what you are saying. 23:00:39 mon_key: the point really, is that readtable management is ultimately left to the user. Let the user explicitely install your reader macros as he wish, so that he can concsiously write his serialization of the code however he wants. 23:00:48 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:01:00 (enable-emacs-string-syntax) / (disable-emacs-string-syntax) 23:01:37 Have also a look at named readtables. 23:01:37 -!- timack [~tim@hlfx50-2-142177100214.ppp-dynamic.dial.ns.bellaliant.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:01:40 That makes sense. IOW if one knows its happening then its fine. 23:02:04 adamvh_ [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:03:09 pjb: I will thanks. 23:04:54 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-126-17.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:05:04 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:05:04 -!- adamvh_ is now known as adamvh 23:05:15 chopwood [~chopwood@c-24-63-111-251.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:01 hrm... my &rest-for-the-pixel-channels drawing primitives aren't quite so nice if one wants to use "name" colors with variables. 23:06:14 timack [~tim@hlfx50-2-142177100214.ppp-dynamic.dial.ns.bellaliant.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:15 (multiple-value-call #'draw-triangle img 10 100 50 250 160 70 *yellow*) 23:06:30 where I've done: (define-symbol-macro *yellow* (values 255 255 20)) 23:07:42 huangho [~vitor@201-15-187-141.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 23:10:58 pjb: |3b|: beach: Thanks again for your input! 23:12:44 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:13:25 -!- spacemanaki [~spacemana@cpe-68-175-63-237.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: spacemanaki] 23:18:32 -!- kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:28:09 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:28:21 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:29:01 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:30:51 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 23:31:02 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 23:33:13 -!- hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has left #lisp 23:34:20 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 23:43:37 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 23:45:49 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-38-142-34.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:46:16 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-177-69.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:49:20 -!- Soulman [~knute@250.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 23:50:40 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.81.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:57:14 sonnym1 [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:58:31 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:58:38 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:59:00 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7570c2.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]