00:02:13 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 00:04:51 -!- Jubb [~ghost@129.21.84.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:05:10 Jubb [~ghost@129.21.84.61] has joined #lisp 00:07:31 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 00:07:31 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 00:07:31 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 00:07:44 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@178.182.149.132.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:08:24 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:14:38 Jini1 [~pidgin@212.106.60.103] has joined #lisp 00:15:23 -!- xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:15:44 apot [~abg3x@c-76-26-42-195.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:52 -!- apot is now known as Guest31076 00:15:54 -!- Jini [~pidgin@212.106.34.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:16:56 -!- Guest31076 [~abg3x@c-76-26-42-195.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has left #lisp 00:18:16 -!- v0|d [~user@93.94.250.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:19:15 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-213-226.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:23:30 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 00:25:38 -!- Agari [~Agari@180.Red-81-33-92.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Quit] 00:33:57 rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 00:34:24 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:53 *Xach* does some housekeeping during the lull 00:34:58 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 00:35:05 -!- Xach has set mode -bbbb *!*max@*.dip.t-dialin.net *!*@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.179.181.251 *!*zinc@unaffiliated/cydd *!*anonymous@AMontsouris-157-1-124-71.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr 00:35:08 -!- Xach has set mode -bbbb *!*soup@120.16.95.108 *!*@dsl-173-206-247-60.tor.primus.ca *!*c9a0f27e@*.201.160.242.126 *!*fleesh@*.dyn.optonline.net 00:35:15 -!- Xach has set mode -bbbb *!*john@212.251.245.* *!~bombom@c-71-201-235-228.hsd1.il.comcast.net *!*@ip72-207-16-14.sd.sd.cox.net [Derek]!*@* 00:35:19 -!- Xach has set mode -bbbb *!*chatzilla@unaffiliated/wakko9warner *!*@115.131.194.22 *!*@ip72-207-23-78.sd.sd.cox.net *!~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net 00:35:25 -!- Xach has set mode -bbbb *!*@*/irc.wikia.com/* *!*452d4afd@*.wikia.com/ip.69.45.74.253 *!*OsamaBinW@*.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com *!*nibiru@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-crowwutdrwjnhijd 00:35:29 -!- Xach has set mode -bbbb *!*hp@*.slkc.qwest.net $r:*ircdig.com* *!*Thomas_H@*.bchsia.telus.net *!*50c2ed21@gateway/web/freenode/x-iopmosqunrfrfpkj 00:35:32 -!- Xach has set mode -bbbb *!*sss@*.pppoe.mtu-net.ru JoesphL0t!*@* *!*@adsl-76-212-168-9.dsl.sndg02.sbcglobal.net ```*!*@* 00:35:36 -!- Xach has set mode -bbb *!UsedSockP@* ~*!*@189.214.151.190.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx *!*@189.214.151.190.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx 00:36:00 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 00:36:53 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has left #lisp 00:41:55 ah yes, the old younder ban 00:45:43 keyvan [~keyvan@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:06 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:19 gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.203.115] has joined #lisp 00:49:35 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 00:53:04 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:55:02 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:55:58 myu2 [~myu2@x108121.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 01:01:52 lurker-x [~androirc@32.171.216.17] has joined #lisp 01:03:26 tronador_ [~guille@190.253.157.83] has joined #lisp 01:06:11 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-213-226.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 01:08:37 -!- xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:09:09 leo2007 [~leo@117.28.17.59] has joined #lisp 01:10:09 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.178.188] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 01:10:19 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-176-65.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:11:37 does anyone know where i could read some tutorials on using lisp to execute external programs, read their standard output, and write to their standard input? 01:12:20 do you need a _tutorial_ for that? 01:12:31 pattern: it will depend on the implementation. for sbcl, see sb-ext:run-program documentation. 01:12:37 thank you 01:13:43 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h134n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 01:14:00 -!- Jini1 [~pidgin@212.106.60.103] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:14:43 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.59.205.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:15:33 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:17:29 abdel_ [~abdel@86.85.150.158] has joined #lisp 01:27:05 Mococa [~Mococa@187.59.205.54] has joined #lisp 01:29:41 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 01:33:13 -!- pabst [~anonymous@208.74.177.139.static.etheric.net] has quit [Quit: pabst] 01:33:17 *Xach* gets his copies of LoL and LOL today 01:34:20 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483B7CA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:34:40 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:36:07 -!- lurker-x [~androirc@32.171.216.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:36:33 milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 01:36:58 chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 01:39:21 -!- sako is now known as sako|AFK 01:40:21 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@76.245.60.219] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 01:40:50 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:41:22 pnq [~nick@172.164.201.153] has joined #lisp 01:46:24 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 01:48:18 starseeker_ [~starseeke@pool-173-75-185-44.bltmmd.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:49:14 -!- Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:52:03 cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-4a5978f2.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:52:43 -!- rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:59:47 -!- zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:00:06 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:01:27 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:01:31 rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 02:03:46 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@88.116.134.106] has joined #lisp 02:04:23 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@88.116.134.106] has quit [Client Quit] 02:04:43 yamina [~Tu1ly@212.203.98.114] has joined #lisp 02:07:05 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 02:07:17 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:12:29 -!- rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: rien] 02:13:08 rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 02:13:17 -!- kamikaza [~kamikaza@92.53.50.179] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:14:24 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:15:07 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 02:15:43 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:16:27 SsvRrwQ [~user@S0106001c1122940c.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:30 apot [~abg3x@unaffiliated/apot] has joined #lisp 02:17:41 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:22:16 How do I tell asdf2 that the extension is something other than "lisp"? 02:23:49 uh? 02:23:59 scheme...? 02:26:10 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe5ddc00-120.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: RaceCondition] 02:28:35 Ugh. Just easier to rename the file. 02:28:52 lol 02:29:18 or pure declarative functional langage ? 02:29:36 What are you talking about? 02:30:38 about pure and modern functionasl langage HO, and typed, not like lisp or scheme... 02:33:47 Function languages are over there -----> 02:33:53 rtoym: cl-source-file subclasses can (I think) define the default extension for their files 02:33:55 Er, Functional. 02:34:15 or was it systems for their :file components... let me look it up 02:34:23 antifuchs: Yeah, I found the asdf2 faq that mentions that. But it's just one file. :-) 02:34:37 rtoym: yeah, use :pathname for that 02:34:52 -!- yamina [~Tu1ly@212.203.98.114] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:35:20 Really? So (:file "foo" :pathname "foo.l")? 02:38:39 -!- timack [~tim@hlfx54-2b-210.ns.sympatico.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:38:46 (:file "foo" :type "l") ? 02:39:41 rtoym: (:file "foo" :pathname #.(make-pathname ...)) (: 02:40:02 The documentation for asdf2 is, uh, lacking. :-) 02:40:14 at least I think that's still the canonical way to do it 02:40:19 asdf2 might have changed things around a bit 02:40:23 rtoym: the type slot in the source-file class has a :type initarg 02:40:24 but this definitely should still work 02:42:12 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-24-4-147-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:08 -!- jweiss [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:43:35 adeht: Thanks, that works nicely. 02:43:52 -!- Jubb [~ghost@129.21.84.61] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:44:08 *rtoym* partially updates matlisp to use asd instead of mk:defsys. 02:44:11 -!- sako|AFK is now known as sako 02:44:36 -!- icbh [~icbh@ntszok054022.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:50:14 yay! 02:52:05 Xach: is it just me, or does the ban cover all connections from web gateway? 02:53:24 Hmm. The conversion to asdf needs more work. 02:55:39 peterhil` [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 02:56:17 -!- bhyde [~Adium@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:57:18 Does asdf2 have something akin to mk:files-in-system to produce a list of the compiled object files? 02:59:09 Xach: it's up :) 03:01:27 rtoym: it's possible to do, but i don't know whether there is a convenience function 03:01:38 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:02:09 stassats: Some hairy or something easy? It's not really necessary that I be able to do this, but it would be a bit nice. 03:02:47 there's asdf:output-files, you'd use it on system components recursively 03:03:17 How do I get at the system components? 03:03:32 *rtoym* is clearly an asdf newbie. 03:04:59 asdf:module-components 03:06:29 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:06:47 (loop for component in (asdf:module-components (asdf:find-system 'cl-ppcre)) append (asdf:output-files (make-instance 'asdf:compile-op) component)) 03:07:12 stassats: Thanks. Let me try that out. 03:07:28 but components can be modules, so you'd need to do this recursively 03:08:09 pabst_ [~anonymous@70-36-197-236.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:29 adu [~ajr@softbank220043139062.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 03:11:00 rtoym: http://paste.lisp.org/display/119784 03:11:08 So, if the component is a module, I have to keep going until I get to a source? 03:11:21 -!- Edward [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-45-246.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 03:13:21 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:14:24 -!- felipe [~felipe@unaffiliated/felipe] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:14:34 in theory, there can be other operations that output files 03:14:58 and it can be extended in some kinky way so that it breaks 03:15:19 v0|d [~user@93.94.250.121] has joined #lisp 03:15:47 That seems to work quite nicely. I'm not doing anything weird so this should be just fine. 03:16:05 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Quit: I'll see you on the dark side of the moon] 03:16:31 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 03:16:56 or take mcclim, for example, which the system mcclim doesn't define any files, but instead depends on other systems which are defined in the same .asd file 03:17:19 in other words, introspecting asdf is a nightmare 03:17:28 -!- hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441425.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:17:58 I'm in control of the systems, so this should be ok. 03:18:18 I guess you could check the dependencies and recurse on those too, right? 16:20:54 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 16:20:54 16:20:54 -!- names: ccl-logbot timjstewart morphling _s1gma rasterbar redline6561 bhyde pankajm xan_ kleppari dfkjjkfd_ Sprayzor pers leo2007 sacho milkpost deepfire sc0ty milanj cnl ikki ZabaQ tronador_ confounds LiamH sellout rmarianski dlowe azaq23 hargettp jweiss dfox ignas madnificent rins schoppenhauer silentbicycle lemoinem juniorroy Jasko xinming Joreji Agari stassats chiguire|m jesusito m1ngus tomaw Kenjin gemelen gaidal jobf zmv alama nikodemus Yuuhi benny yvdriess 16:20:54 -!- names: Athas rvirding attila_lendvai gravicappa tfb RaceCondition mega1 drdo Nshag am0c reb```` amb007 jso` splittist trebor_dki H4ns` mcguitan83 gnooth pkhuong Hun The_Fellow insomniaSalt HET2 parcs dmiles_afk whee e-user mishoo_ felipe kiuma daniel__ mrSpec l0ve cmm jdz dto varjag s0ber kanru slyrus HG` _3b leers vsync billitch Spion__ two- theBlackDragon Salamander_ clog zc00gii hugod_ simplechat hramrach_ SpitfireWP apot SsvRrwQ rien_ cafesofie myu2 keyvan 16:20:54 -!- names: rootzlevel dmytrish__ kpreid antoszka rapacity emporas rtoym meingbg Amadiro tvaalen pattern Quadrescence ASau billstclair Swappage CrazyEddy nuba Euthydemus` rien Adamant Tristam Dodek rabite tsuru chitech Xach Liera oconnore prip chrnybo` Zhivago Patzy ilmari |rgs| slyrus_ Modius [df] j_king Atomsk Ralith snorble AntiSpamMeta nurv101 OliverUv pr incandenza rdd sako easyE abend mducharme arbscht beach rvncerr stepnem Ginei_Morioka pchrist frodef Khisanth 16:20:54 -!- names: npoektop cataska Demosthenes setmeaway Axioplase LittleQNCCU dRbiG krl krappie__ js0000 jayne djinni` joast maxigas` setheus_ df_aldur csamuelson galdor Adrinael smithzv froggey cibs araujo timchen1a pmd ineiros_ acieroid twem2_ zmyrgel` fmu___ xristos_ kloeri emoon_ zbigniew Odin- mornfall jkantz vhost- tritchey cmatei sonnym1 shachaf Aisling Kovensky c|mell ramus guaqua yan_ rsynnott cky freiksenet johanbev nuntius delYsid p_l|backup TDT Fill eno 16:20:54 -!- names: fihi09`` gz` fds dostoyevsky antifuchs zakwilson rokstar naryl larva trigen churib Intensity yahooooo Jabberwockey Taggnostr2 pluto12345 egn_ vert2 MichealH tychoish_ apox_ fe[nl]ix tty234_ ianmcorvidae sigjuice DrForr bozhidar bobbysmith007 hlavaty em scode lonstein mathrick sykopomp nullman spiaggia phadthai aoh cmbntr_ nowhereman gju Obfuscate katesmith lispmeister_ _2x2l mgr_ abeaumont erk jsnell derrotebaron baggles Bucciarati peddie bfein ecraven 16:20:54 -!- names: mtd HerbieB luis akkartik kencausey lorenz foom rotty koning_robot qsun fmu derrida faulevel njan adeht wgl dcrawford jeekl Draggor simontwo ``Erik schme |3b| strlen jamief ve koollman guther qebab PissedNumlock andreer Pepe_ mouflon Fade Tordek tic metasyntax cYmen pok_ Zahl cods Posterdati mon_key levi pp206 Bahrain thorstadt macrobat tessier mal__ bzzbzz BrianRice pjb _8david` johs ejohnson lianj thijso Borbus jrockway ozzloy Xantoz ragnul 16:20:54 -!- names: jesusabdullah gonzojive hohum k9quaint Yamazaki-kun lnostdal hyko rafusy housel spacebat joshe cpt_nemo 16:21:43 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-pvdscdykovajpwxv] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:22:16 -!- Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:22:29 TeMPOraL [~user@188.146.237.148.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has joined #lisp 16:22:29 hello lispers! 16:22:39 slyrus: I once had a simulation of mobile phones and wanted to use change-class as the mobiles changed from indoor to outdoor mobiles so that propagation losses would be calculated correctly. 16:22:54 Never got around to implementing that, though. 16:23:01 slyrus: I'm much more open to a set of related changes to make things easier for you! 16:23:02 -!- twem2_ is now known as twem2 16:25:25 srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:25:26 When subclassing from a parent class which has a metaclass must the defclass form for the subclass include the same metaclass spec as the parent or is it implicit? 16:25:37 It is not implicit. 16:26:46 Xach: Thanks. So, to be sure, each defclass form must declare its :metaclass if present? 16:27:03 slyrus: changing *just* copy's behavior feels like "Could you put some fresh fruit on your counter for me to eat when I break in?" 16:27:16 mon_key: that's my understanding. 16:27:31 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:27:55 Xach: OK. Thanks again. 16:28:52 mon_key: I haven't done it myself, my understanding is based on seeing the question asked and answered by others. I'd feel better if someone who actually uses metaclasses commented. 16:32:02 mon_key: that, or you can hook in the inheritance process via the MOP. I find an explicit metaclass simpler. 16:34:12 -!- js0000 [~js@67.208.188.68] has quit [Quit: rebooting] 16:34:27 eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 16:35:02 adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:30 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:37:35 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-137-118.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:38:21 Xach: and a cup of coffee to go with the fruit please 16:38:42 *Xach* starts it brewing...hey, wait! 16:39:51 chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 16:40:00 jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-87.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:42:46 while you're at it, the various examples in test.lisp could use a little love too :) 16:43:10 *slyrus* hopes those stones he's throwing don't break any of his own windows 16:45:18 ska` [~user@ppp-58-8-154-10.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 16:46:37 |nix| [~user@66-194-253-20.static.twtelecom.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:23 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:47:52 hkr [~hkr@77.63.34.119] has joined #lisp 16:48:09 bacon and eggs imo 16:49:26 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:50:58 Bronsa [~brace@host14-180-dynamic.2-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:52:53 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:54:29 -!- Joreji [~thomas@79-125.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:55:29 -!- apot [~abg3x@unaffiliated/apot] has left #lisp 16:56:19 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw80ff96c0.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:57:15 Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-51-145-83.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:57:15 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-51-145-83.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:57:15 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 16:58:47 -!- confounds is now known as confounds_afk 17:00:14 -!- splittist [~splittist@93.112.202.62.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:01:29 k9quaint: english breakfast minus pudding and beans :P 17:02:10 shth0Rx [~sth0R@125.69.3.201] has joined #lisp 17:03:04 tcr1 [~tcr@86.Red-83-33-177.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:17 ska`` [~user@ppp-58-8-94-231.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 17:05:23 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:08:29 -!- hkr [~hkr@77.63.34.119] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 17:08:37 -!- ska` [~user@ppp-58-8-154-10.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:08:43 kami [~user@p5B20DCD9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:47 -!- kami [~user@p5B20DCD9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:08:47 kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 17:09:01 Hello 17:10:31 spiaggia` [~user@113.161.72.9] has joined #lisp 17:10:39 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:11:24 tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-179-29-10.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:51 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c-8b92e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 17:11:55 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:12:11 -!- pluto12345 [~carcola@unaffiliated/pluto12345] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:12:11 -!- tsuru [~charlie@adsl-179-29-10.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:12:11 -!- spiaggia [~user@113.161.72.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:12:11 -!- prip [~foo@host212-129-dynamic.35-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:12:11 -!- lispmeister_ [u272@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gvhyuyggmeastfrq] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:12:16 lispmeister__ [u272@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ebdxphfufhcnkiud] has joined #lisp 17:12:30 -!- Liera [~Liera@113.172.68.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:12:39 prip [~foo@host212-129-dynamic.35-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:12:44 splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 17:12:56 Liera [~Liera@113.172.68.155] has joined #lisp 17:15:17 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:15:51 andares [~andares@weldorm-pat.netcom.duke.edu] has joined #lisp 17:17:21 hey, since there's no FAQ or anything, I'll just ask. what's a good scheme compiler or interpreter on Linux? 17:17:48 bsod1 [~osa1@188.56.183.102] has joined #lisp 17:18:20 andares: chicken 17:18:41 you can talk about it on #chicken and ask questions there 17:18:50 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:19:17 compiles to C? odd. 17:19:27 andares: you'd better ask in #scheme 17:19:42 is this channel general Lisp discussion, or common lisp or what? 17:19:48 more common lisp 17:19:48 Common Lisp 17:20:03 it's misnamed :) 17:20:40 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:20:49 what are the relative differences between the two? 17:21:15 psilord1 [~psilord@76.201.149.53] has joined #lisp 17:21:17 scheme is minimalist, CL is all-encompassing and more for production. 17:21:20 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 17:21:39 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has left #lisp 17:21:59 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:22:18 rien: that statement would have been true ~8 years ago 17:22:39 nowadays, scheme is growing features left and right. 17:23:03 yes, but most schemers are pissed about it, they prefer to keep it minimalist 17:23:17 R6RS sucked and R7RS will be split in two 17:23:26 but that's off topic 17:23:35 here's a contrast between natural languages and programming languages: the mind state of schemers doesn't affect the language (: 17:24:53 -!- Spion__ [~spion@77.29.250.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:25:04 it affects the implementations. the more serious ones only care about R5RS 17:25:15 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 17:25:23 heh 17:25:44 I'm switching from scheme to CL because PCL is just that convincing 17:26:22 rread [~rread@c-98-234-218-55.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:23 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.40.185.126.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has quit [Quit: gone] 17:28:08 mulder [~Adium@75-119-248-180.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 17:28:13 -!- mulder [~Adium@75-119-248-180.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 17:28:38 cheezus [~Adium@75-119-248-180.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 17:29:31 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:30:28 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 17:31:10 *p_l|backup* switched because CL was more readable to me. The fact that he can move code from one implementation to another was a big reason too 17:31:15 argh... stupid clx/trivial-features mutual incompatibility.... 17:31:41 -!- keyvan [~keyvan@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:31:43 trivial featuritis (-: 17:32:03 p_l|backup: you switched from scheme too? 17:32:31 rien: kinda. I was trying to get started on Scheme, but no implementation was compatible with another, and I used R2RS when learning :) 17:32:37 re readability I actually prefer e.g. cons? instead of consp 17:32:49 oh I've never seen R2Rs :) 17:33:06 keyvan [~keyvan@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:11 (scheme calls consp "pair?" though) 17:33:21 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:33:34 luis: I assume you don't use clx? (and that you are the cffi/babel maintainer)? 17:34:18 Joreji [~thomas@79-125.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:34:22 slyrus: yes, and yes. 17:34:30 rien: in my case it was separate namespaces, less importance placed on functional programming, LOOP, etc. 17:34:36 I think a more consistent Scheme with tons of libraries would trump CL 17:34:50 the fact that file I/O works the same between all implementation... :D 17:35:14 trivial-features is a bit promiscuous with *features*, but I claim that CLX is broken. (If I recall the issue correctly.) 17:35:35 luis: can I lock you and krystof in a cage until you guys make it possible to load cffi and then load clx in the same image? 17:35:51 and Xof claims precisely the opposite 17:36:03 adu: there's too much fragmentation, you'd end up with a new CL :P 17:36:12 or rather, Common Scheme :) 17:36:29 one of the R7RS will be a "common scheme" 17:36:36 heh 17:36:41 slyrus: do you have a proposal? 17:36:41 -!- splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:36:42 p_l|backup: that would be great! yeah, that's what I was trying to say, Scheme isn't consistent, but if it was, then it would trump CL 17:37:07 p_l|backup: I agree on both Loop and less emphasis on functional programming. I haven't decided on lisp-1 vs lisp-2 yet. For now I think lisp-1 makes code clearer 17:37:22 luis: 3 minutes a round, knives allowed, no guns 17:37:40 eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 17:37:47 adu: maybe it would trump it but schemers would never let it, they really like their FP. 17:38:14 adu: I don't think so, cause to be consistent, it would have to stop being minimalist, which would cause a political holy war with those that implement R7RS being branded heretics 17:38:22 slyrus: all I have is an Opinel. 17:38:34 slyrus: how about a technical proposal? :) 17:38:56 trivial-features renames its little-endian to tf-little-endian or some such 17:39:18 the line (from CLX) that's problematic is: #+(or lispm vax little-endian Minima) 17:39:50 apparently Xof doesn't want to break compatibility on platforms that no one uses anymore, so he's reluctant to provide modern eval-when conditions following that conditional 17:39:54 rien: huh? 17:40:07 rien: how is FP not consistent? 17:40:42 I claim that it's not unreasonable to expect that condition to yield true on any little-endian platform. 17:41:06 adu: I never said FP is not consistent 17:41:17 adu: but schemers like to do everything functionally 17:41:18 Maybe it doesn't break on SBCL without trivial-features, but it would break on any Lisp that does push :little-endian out of the box. 17:41:37 rien: well, then what you do mean by "schemers would never let it"? 17:41:41 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:41:54 slyrus: so, the fix would be to s/little-endian/(and whatever-lisp-they-were-thinking-of little-endian)/ 17:42:04 except for some obscure old-sk00l (hypothetical?) lisp that has been working all this time and therefore xof's reluctant to change it 17:42:24 adu: they'd force everyone to write functional code and the language would never use its full capabilities 17:42:25 <_8david`> allegro has :little-endian set by default on x86; doesn't clx work there? 17:42:26 well, yes, that's one obvious fix that is apparently unacceptable to the clx maintainers 17:42:36 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.215.146] has quit [Quit: Offline] 17:42:45 _8david`: it may not be so pedantic about the old-sk00l eval-when conditions 17:42:53 doesn't allegro have its own clx? 17:42:53 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:43:14 splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 17:43:17 rien: you're talking about implementation, I'm talking about interface 17:43:38 it's an unholy combination of the clx maintainers' recalcitrance, luis' promiscuousness and SBCL's pedantry that creates this mess 17:44:31 *slyrus* has been doing more than his share of haranguing this morning 17:44:31 -!- splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 17:44:43 welcome to Common Lisp :-) 17:44:52 rien: most of the R6RS libraries can be implemented in functional code, for example, and can also be implemented as C wrappers, if the interface precludes either implementation, then it is a bad interface 17:45:02 splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 17:45:15 tcr1: and #lisp :) 17:45:30 "it's an unholy combination of the clx maintainers' recalcitrance, luis' promiscuousness and SBCL's pedantry that creates this mess" <--- heh 17:46:02 adu: all I'm saying is that schemers frown upon non-FP so the community would never accept programs written in other paradigms. 17:46:46 rien: now you're talking about programs, I'm talking about language 17:46:59 -!- alama [~alama@n138215.science.ru.nl] has quit [Quit: alama] 17:47:07 oh, and while the clx maintainers are (not) at it, can they fix this: (defconstant +X-unix-socket-path+ "/tmp/.X11-unix/X" "The location of the X socket") 17:47:35 adu: I'm talking about what would happen in the real world. I have no clue what you're talking about. 17:48:08 just go to #scheme and show them some code full of set! and ask them to help you fix it 17:48:17 they'll help you rewrite it functionally 17:48:42 rien: I'm trying to figure out why Scheme is so borked 17:48:54 slyrus: maybe you can disguise the fix as port to Allegro (which also pushes :little-endian apparently) 17:49:33 right, but, as I pointed out, I imagine allegro is fine with (eval-when (eval compile load) ...) 17:49:38 adu: maybe that naturally happens with languages that force paradigms on people (look at haskell, smalltalk, etc) 17:49:53 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 17:49:58 antifuchs: can you switch sbcl-style-pedantry-mode to on in allegro? 17:50:45 rien: Haskell is pretty consistent, most variants have completely different names, e.g. Helium, Desciple, Agda 17:51:12 adu: but like smalltalk and scheme, it isn't popular, and I think it's for the same reson 17:51:15 reason* 17:51:20 adu: bbl, lunch time :) 17:51:26 haskell is type-oriented ;-) 17:51:45 *adu* <3 Haskell 17:52:01 haskell has a pretty good community, though, and a strong, *single* implementation 17:52:20 but I don't like it because it's type-oriented, I like it because it is the best language for concurrent programming 17:53:15 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:53:29 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-92-124-195.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:54:34 http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u64q/performance.php?test=threadring 17:55:00 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-137-118.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:57:19 slyrus: (eval-when #+sbcl (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) #-sbcl (eval compile load) ...) ; ? :-/ 17:57:36 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:57:53 milanj [~milanj_@77-46-169-114.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 17:58:08 luis: sure, but correct/acceptable fixes for CLX aren't the issue. the recalcitrance on the behalf of the CLX maintainers is the issue. 17:58:29 it is claimed that trivial-features is the bad actor and that it needs to be fixed 18:00:09 FWIW, the ultimate goal for trivial-features is for it to become unnecessary and disappear. 18:00:12 k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:00:19 p_l|backup: I don't recall lack of a single implementation being a barrier for C 18:02:38 C had the advantage of extreme fragmentation backed by business types, which generally leads to standards 18:02:58 -!- mcguitan83 [~user@2001:660:330f:a4:219:d1ff:fe7d:3bfe] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:04:25 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:04:37 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.56.183.102] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:04:53 slyrus: how pedantic do you want it? (: 18:04:57 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@83.240.225.146] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 18:05:02 dlowe: C had a) much firmer base coming from Unix APIs that later on became ANSI C's standard library b) C is pretty much down to metal, so it fits nearly any system 18:05:14 slyrus: we have a mode where you get a full warning for redefining a function in a different file/the top level 18:05:20 (although that's a bug actually <-:) 18:05:30 -!- splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:05:36 also, C wasn't really contending with Lisp or COBOL or other "high level languages", it was competing with macro assemblers 18:05:55 (and well, Pascal) 18:06:20 rme [~rme@pool-70-106-149-166.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:29 antifuchs: does allegro except the old-sk00l eval-when conditions? 18:06:39 slyrus: I think it does, yeah 18:06:44 doesn't warn on those 18:06:53 that's the pedantry-in-question 18:06:56 ah 18:07:31 slyrus: they're deprecated, but they're still mandated by the standard 18:07:43 I am not sure what the rules re deprecated features are 18:07:51 (are you supposed to get a warning for remove-if-not?) 18:07:55 there are a myriad of ways of fixing this particular problem, yet it's been an occasional thorn in my side for years. I guess no one else uses CFFI and clx in the same image (or makes sure that clx is loaded first anyway) 18:10:27 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 18:11:05 anyway, I was hoping to hack for a bit before work, spent the time haranguing instead. now it's off to work. 18:11:09 -!- bhyde [~Adium@c-66-30-115-134.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 18:12:11 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-137-118.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:12:26 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:12:53 -!- Agari [~Agari@180.Red-81-33-92.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:13:41 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:14:49 -!- cheezus [~Adium@75-119-248-180.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:15:34 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-39-233-50.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:15:52 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:17:17 rien` [~user@rrcs-69-193-217-130.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:17:24 cheezus [~Adium@75-119-248-180.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 18:19:25 -!- tsuru` is now known as tsuru 18:20:44 -!- rien [~user@rrcs-69-193-217-130.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:20:45 -!- rien_ is now known as rien 18:20:56 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 18:21:12 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:21:25 -!- zmv [~daniel@c934a93a.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:21:53 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:23:01 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Client Quit] 18:23:11 mindCrime [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:23:31 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 18:23:58 rien`` [~user@rrcs-69-193-217-130.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:24:44 -!- cheezus [~Adium@75-119-248-180.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:25:21 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:26:05 rien``` [~user@rrcs-69-193-217-130.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:26:13 cheezus [~Adium@75-119-248-180.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 18:26:24 http://lispjobs.wordpress.com/2011/02/18/lisp-developer-ravenbrook-cambridge-uk/ 18:27:17 -!- rien` [~user@rrcs-69-193-217-130.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:27:53 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.182.182] has joined #lisp 18:29:16 -!- sellout [~Adium@pool-71-175-25-141.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:29:28 -!- rien`` [~user@rrcs-69-193-217-130.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:29:40 -!- jso` is now known as jso 18:29:51 Kenjin [~josesanto@46.50.61.98] has joined #lisp 18:33:25 splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 18:34:26 -!- adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 18:34:59 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 18:35:04 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:35:09 -!- Liera [~Liera@113.172.68.155] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:39:58 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:40:07 -!- jesusito [~user@91.pool85-49-229.dynamic.orange.es] has left #lisp 18:40:48 -!- tty234_ is now known as tty234 18:42:46 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has joined #lisp 18:44:49 -!- |rgs| [~hujvpalto@109-184-40-163.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:44:49 -!- k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:45:50 tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has joined #lisp 18:46:05 zeroish [~zeroish@135.207.174.50] has joined #lisp 18:47:44 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@46.50.61.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:51:40 flip214 [~marek@h081217084238.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 18:51:40 -!- flip214 [~marek@h081217084238.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Changing host] 18:51:40 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 18:51:53 -!- xan_ [~xan@97.60.17.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:51:56 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:52:28 *sykopomp* hopes some day emacs will be able to handle #||# 18:52:44 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@188.146.237.148.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:53:45 looks like robot earmuffs. 18:53:47 xan_ [~xan@216.60.17.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:54:02 I've got a problem with sbcl's waitqueues... does someone know if http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=265981 (wakeup on gc) is still open? 18:54:22 -!- jso [~user@wsip-70-164-99-62.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:54:41 I've got a script that fails with 1.0.45.36 - even after putting a loop around condition-wait 18:55:58 carbocalm [~user@38.99.165.166] has joined #lisp 18:57:18 sykopomp: use #|| and ||# 18:57:35 flip214: code? 18:58:10 -!- splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 18:59:44 tcr1: http://paste.lisp.org/display/119818 19:01:34 Ragnaroek [5b0c615f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.12.97.95] has joined #lisp 19:01:58 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 19:02:30 loop until *buffer* is initially true 19:03:12 are you trying to reimplement sb-concurrency:queue? or sb-concurrency:mailbox? 19:03:52 -!- rien``` [~user@rrcs-69-193-217-130.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:04:45 Agari [~Agari@180.Red-81-33-92.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:06:17 chopwood [~chopwood@c-24-63-111-251.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:06:26 rien``` [~user@rrcs-69-193-217-130.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:06:49 <|3b|> does that 2nd loop in reader ever return? 19:07:27 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 19:07:41 <|3b|> or 3rd i guess, the one in (let ((v ...))) 19:08:59 lahwran [~lahwran@unaffiliated/lahwran] has joined #lisp 19:09:17 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:10:20 -!- pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:10:53 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:11:26 -!- rien``` is now known as rien` 19:11:36 -!- rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Disconnected by services] 19:11:37 -!- rien` is now known as rien 19:12:58 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-137-118.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:14:06 -!- cheezus [~Adium@75-119-248-180.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:19:29 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.182.182] has quit [Quit: Offline] 19:19:38 sabalaba [~sabalaba@173-10-44-57-Michigan.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:23:17 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:24:13 milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw81ffe1d4.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 19:24:17 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:25:13 tcr1: there's a (loop until *buffer* do (condition-wait...)) 19:25:17 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 19:25:33 3b: the loops work mostly - only sometimes a NIL is returned instead of a written symbol 19:25:59 tcr1: I didn't know about sb-concurrency yet, the manual in sbcl is 1.0.39.0 ;-) 19:26:27 dkasak [~dkasak@93-138-15-82.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 19:32:24 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:02 cheezus [~Adium@75-119-248-180.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 19:37:49 -!- SsvRrwQ [~user@S0106001c1122940c.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:41:27 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw81ffe1d4.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 19:42:12 dkasak_ [~dkasak@93-141-124-88.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 19:43:17 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:43:46 pebkc [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 19:43:51 *|3b|* wonders if hitting k on the end of a line in *slime-threads* is really supposed to kill the thread on the next line 19:44:24 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 19:44:39 milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw81ffe1d4.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 19:44:40 -!- dkasak [~dkasak@93-138-15-82.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:45:22 probably not, but who knows 19:45:31 <|3b|> flip214: with the (unless *buffer* (return)) uncommented, i only get the 1 NIL from the initial value of *buffers* 19:45:42 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:45:43 -!- pebkc [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:45:45 BeniaminQ [~quassel@host-195-88-115-34.hypernet.biz.pl] has joined #lisp 19:47:15 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 19:47:55 tobik [~tobik@p549FE158.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:01 but i blame emacs! 19:48:22 Landr [~vser@78-22-149-217.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 19:48:27 always a good candidate (: 19:48:45 -!- tobik [~tobik@p549FE158.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 19:48:53 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-87.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:48:59 -!- jobf [~jfranck@c-9fbde555.03-87-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:50:58 -!- Atomsk [~ace4016@adsl-32-8-91.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:52:37 |3b|: should be fixed in CVS, soon 19:53:14 TeMPOraL [~user@188.147.170.169.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has joined #lisp 19:55:44 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-32-8-91.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:12 *stassats* waits for CVS longer than it takes to fix a bug 19:58:22 -!- l0ve [~l0ve@208-58-71-117.c3-0.fch-ubr1.lnh-fch.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:59:19 okay, it's in, just wait until it hits public cvs 20:00:59 -!- cnl [~cnl@78.31.74.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:01:13 -!- cky [~cky@car.spillville.com] has quit [Changing host] 20:01:13 cky [~cky@fsf/member/cky] has joined #lisp 20:01:48 -!- confounds_afk is now known as confounds 20:03:03 -!- jkantz [~jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:04:57 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.182.182] has joined #lisp 20:07:29 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-65-75.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:08:20 rtoym: i think i've found the problem with buffer-package 20:08:26 it's because of multiple values again 20:09:24 Xach: easyE shows me how to bootstrap quicklisp on ABCL, just a minute ago - did you know this works: (load "http://beta.quicklisp.org/quicklisp.lisp") ? 20:09:35 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:10:01 Yes, in abcl, it works. Nice isn't it! 20:10:15 *sykopomp* learned to hate the idea after working with PHP. 20:10:30 sykopomp: why so? 20:10:40 ehu: cool 20:10:42 rce 20:10:53 I think it's a great way to bootstrap the distribution mechanism! 20:11:02 ehu: Does it work with https? 20:11:04 pjb: the ability to do that is often disabled in actual PHP installations because it turned out to be a serious security risk. 20:11:13 Xach: it should. 20:11:15 ehu: Also. Who writes the ABCL Dev blog? 20:11:18 l0ve [~l0ve@208-58-71-117.c3-0.fch-ubr1.lnh-fch.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 20:11:24 as convenient as it is. 20:11:28 sykopomp: heh, given the way PHP is used I wonder why it ever made it there 20:11:31 sykopomp: that's because dumb web developers use load for template inclusion/code path selection 20:11:34 pjb: it's called rce, remote code execution 20:11:34 Xach: I do, mostly, but also easyE 20:11:34 yeah, that's pretty evil... 20:11:44 what if you have a file actually named that? 20:11:48 ehu: The latest one looks to me like some kind of markdown fail. 20:11:52 it's like the perl | feature 20:11:53 antifuchs: yeah, I figured it's not as worrisome in CL. 20:11:59 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw81ffe1d4.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 20:12:01 sykopomp: in an image-based development environment, I don't see this happening. 20:12:10 SBCL's compiler slowness is a security feature! (-: 20:12:17 Bronsa: well, I'm the guy who once adviced a certain map form with certain delete-file and directory subforms... 20:12:23 prevents you from getting tempted to shoot yourself in the foot (: 20:12:32 hehe 20:12:33 -!- leo2007 [~leo@117.28.17.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:12:35 Xach: because of the links at the end? yea. 20:12:36 ehu: that is, http://abcl-dev.blogspot.com/2011/02/summer-of-bear.html has []s in places i don't expect. 20:12:42 perl's default open, if you give it a filename starting with "|" will instead of opening the file, will exec a shell and read the output of the program 20:13:04 (Also widely viewed as a mistake, in retrospect) 20:13:08 Ain't that bad! 20:13:12 foom: if you have a file named that, you can normalize the // out of the pathname (: 20:13:31 We could also just use Turing Machines instead of Universal Turing Machines. 20:13:38 another reason to use logical pathnames (with :directory / :name / :type only) (-; 20:13:53 And see how programmers squeak when Apple just does that with iOS. 20:14:16 but you don't even need that feature -- load can take a stream 20:14:27 so, (load (urlopen "http://blah")) would be just fine 20:14:48 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host14-180-dynamic.2-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:14:57 Xach: thanks for pointing out. I think the links should indeed be integrated into the post. I'll revisit. 20:14:58 Xach: problems with the post were my fault. 20:15:20 Indeed, it was Markdown failing to convert to blogger. 20:15:31 general question: When using drakma, does anyone split off various http-request configurations into smaller functions? 20:15:32 it's one more thing to type... you'd need to run a/b tests, but I postulate that the less work it is for somebody to start using quicklisp, the fewer new users will give up before they get started 20:15:56 (like (defun htget (...) ....), (defun htpost (url data) ...) etc.) 20:15:59 *easyE* always often composes text in Emacs with markdown-mode these days. 20:17:03 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 20:17:37 -!- silentbicycle [~scott@99-55-246-143.lightspeed.gdrpmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:18:57 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 20:19:05 I guess not. :) 20:19:19 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-167-222.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:20:30 And I missed the invocation in the pipeline to translate to Blogger syntax. 20:20:58 :-) those things happen. 20:21:55 Yeah, but I should review one time in Blogger before posting, and besmirching the UX of Planet Lisp 20:23:09 francogrex [~user@109.130.140.56] has joined #lisp 20:23:36 easyE: It's not too late. 20:24:08 -!- xan_ [~xan@216.60.17.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:24:44 rtoym: fixed in CVS as well 20:24:50 Xach: do you keep/have stats on which packages get downloaded most from QL? 20:25:15 *ehu* thinks that'd be a good start for verifying ABCL's support 20:25:24 *stassats* curses CVS on cl.net some more, how can it be so bloody slow? 20:25:35 stassats: what are you working on ? 20:25:50 slime cvs 20:26:00 ehu: Rough counts, yes. It does not distinguish between what's requested directly and what's downloaded to satisfy dependencies, though. 20:26:19 *Xach* pulls up the latest stats 20:26:38 rough counts are a good start. 20:26:50 what does the author of the most popular package get? 20:27:05 well, if you're trying to verify ABCL support, you want counts including dependency downloads 20:27:17 no point in having what someone requested if the deps aren't working. :) 20:27:32 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@86.Red-83-33-177.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:27:46 ehu: the top things are things like alexandria, trivial-features, cffi, etc 20:28:12 hmm. alexandria was on my list for verification. seems a good start then. 20:28:32 ehu: shouldn't we just try all the packages? 20:28:39 sure. 20:28:57 but if there are issues coming from these tests, I'd rather fix those in the top downloads first. 20:29:06 hmm, almost 50% more requests from europeans than from the USA. 20:29:09 Of course bordeaux-threads dependencies will block until some version of my patch gets propagated. 20:29:31 -!- BeniaminQ [~quassel@host-195-88-115-34.hypernet.biz.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:29:33 Europe is the Land of Lisp... 20:30:00 And I think you need my patch to trivial-gray-streams as well. 20:30:02 ~3K objects fetched from japan, 8.5K from the US, and 12K from Europe so far in February. 20:30:25 easyE: we need gray streams support period. 20:30:45 but other than that, I guess we're on the right track. 20:30:53 What we have works well enough to run Hunchentoot. 20:31:21 some D-M-C fixes, gray streams, pretty printer fixes. those are my high priorities. However, some documentation would be great as well. 20:32:06 but I think that with those fixes, we're definitely going to be able to run most software out there (or at least the complient CL code) 20:32:52 Xach: that's strange. More download from Europe than USA? 20:33:04 Xach: how many current Lisp implementations does (load "http://beta.quicklisp.org/quicklisp.lisp") work from? 20:33:35 I recall CCL and ABCL 20:33:40 pjb: Yes. 20:33:48 easyE: ccl and abcl. 20:33:56 Thanks. 20:33:59 does ccl work with HTTPS? 20:34:11 easyE: I think in the future quicklisp.lisp will only be available via SSL, and at that point I think ClozureCL will not work. 20:34:18 s0ber_ [~s0ber@111-240-170-46.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:21 ha! 20:34:42 for us, it means not a single line of code difference. 20:35:45 What will it do if an invalid certificate is involved? 20:35:47 At least there's some benefit from all that Java business. 20:36:11 ehu: for example, what does (load "https://www.clojure.org/foo.lisp") do? 20:36:15 cnl [~cnl@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 20:36:34 so does that work with all pathnames, or just in load? 20:36:49 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-164-148.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:36:59 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 20:37:10 foom: If it doesn't, report a bug please. 20:37:27 Well, I was thinking it was a bug that it does. :) 20:37:40 There are serious security issues here. 20:37:46 foom: no, it's by design. 20:38:16 Xach: invalid SSL will fail until you manage the JRE's keystore in 'cacerts' via keytool. 20:38:51 The hostname in the cert is wrong, no client ought to accept that by default (but of course many don't check) 20:39:09 easyE: that is good. 20:39:18 easyE: re the security issues: those arise even if you let the user load anything which might contain code, even under 'normal' pathnames. 20:39:50 ehu: sure, but downloading eval'd call from a URI seems a bit riskier. 20:39:54 s/call/code/ 20:40:33 easyE: true, but do you verify all packages you download from quicklisp, line by line for security issues? 20:40:34 i.e. DNS can be hijacked, proxies can be 0w3nd. 20:40:48 but this isn't just with load, right? 20:40:53 -!- hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633438.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:40:56 No, I trust that GPG signatures over checksums will get me by. 20:41:14 Didn't you just say that it works with all filenames? 20:41:20 so, with a good SSL cert, you'll also trust the source? 20:41:28 did you keysign all the authors? 20:41:31 All Pathnames. 20:42:13 foom: easyE came up with a way to extend our Pathname support to URLs 20:42:49 foom: ABCL has an "implicit" subclass of standard CL Pathname. This 'URI-PATHNAME' is ANSI compliant but has special semantics for URI specific portions, namely the scheme, the authority, the fragment, and the query. 20:43:39 srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 20:43:49 ABCL's LOAD routines use the Scheme portion to execute specialized code. 20:44:03 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.182.182] has quit [Quit: Offline] 20:44:14 easyE: Can *d-p-d* be an URI-PATHNAME? 20:44:30 The JVM comes with 'http', 'https', 'ftp', etc. "baked in", but others can be added dynamically at runtime. 20:45:01 Sure. The design goal is to have these the URI-PATHNAME really be a subclass of PATHNAME> 20:45:15 Right now the only thing you can't do is WRITE> 20:45:41 could do a PUT to the server...not likely to see much use though 20:45:43 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:45:59 hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440214.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 20:46:17 foom: agreed. If ATOM had gained velocity, we'd perhaps be in a different world. 20:46:25 foom: right. it could do a PUT and contain a Range: header. 20:46:51 But it looks like the GET/PUT asymmetry will last another decade at current rates. 20:47:24 "current rates" of replacement of HTTP(S) servers on the Internet. 20:48:10 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:49:10 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.140.56] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:50:25 ehu: http://xach.com/tmp/downloads.txt has about a month's worth of project download stats. 20:51:16 two ancient cities are at the top 20:51:26 great! 20:51:41 -!- srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:51:42 definitely indicates the importance of testing/supporting alexandria 20:53:20 so we block at 8th and 10th without patches. 20:53:29 "8th and 10th popular" 20:53:46 kae [~dsa@ext02.gsp.se] has joined #lisp 20:53:52 hmpf 20:54:05 -!- hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440214.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:54:06 so, what do we need to do to change that? 20:54:18 Bug authors with my patches. 20:54:21 I mean, was bordeaux-threads responsive? 20:54:31 Or implement a patch dipatcher in quicklisp. 20:54:40 s/dipatcher/dispatcher/ 20:54:48 xach indicated that'd be his last resort. 20:54:57 fe[nl]ix has the patches. 20:55:09 I think he's considering them. 20:55:15 And the patches are public at 20:55:27 http://slack.net/~evenson/abcl/ 20:55:57 Via third-party dists, you could set up patched projects that are fetched in preference to quicklisp's unpatched versions. 20:56:18 Xach: that'd be great. But I thought I would just download and apply patches. 20:56:28 After the extraction happens. 20:56:36 easyE: That's not going to happen with Quicklisp. 20:56:43 Are there ql extensions? 20:57:14 It might be feasible via some to-be-added hook mechanism. 20:57:18 'cuz I'm pretty sure I could do it with ASDF2, nes pas? 20:57:25 Dunno. 20:57:47 I owe you a patch to flesh this out. 20:58:04 But I have yet to peek under the hood of ql. 20:58:16 Are you using generics? 20:58:51 Yes. 20:59:37 But doing this is against a design goal of ql? How? I am not clear, and I need to study (at least look at) yourcode. 20:59:49 hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441327.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 20:59:52 "doing this" meaning patching after extraction... 21:00:18 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:00:22 It is against a download goal of QL. I'd like the unpacked sources to match the packed tarballs. 21:00:29 Design goal, rather. 21:00:34 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 21:01:21 I'd like to have some confidence that when someone shows they are using project foo from quicklisp, it's really project foo. If it's really patched-project-foo, I'd like to see that it's from somewhere else. 21:01:22 Ok. What about a distributed verification of those relationships? Too fancy I guess. 21:01:53 I'd like to see the dist mechanism used for providing alternative versions of things. 21:02:08 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@74.209.54.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:02:09 Shouldn't the user be given a chance to accept changes from the ABCL maintainers if they wish? 21:02:28 I think the best way to do that is for the abcl maintainers to provide a dist. 21:02:40 Ok. On S3 buckets? 21:02:42 Not for abcl maintainers to update the normal sources in-place. 21:03:14 *ehu* sees why Xach doesn't want to start going there. 21:03:29 Yep. So we'll try to do a dist. 21:03:40 hey, does QL track source control locations for packages? 21:04:18 Xach: can we put up patched versions on cl.net too? 21:04:20 that'd be a nice feature: "gimme the project-VCS-checkout for this project". 21:04:41 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.215.146] has joined #lisp 21:05:19 You can host a dist anywhere. 21:05:33 foom: I do. I have to make that metadata much more easy to get. 21:05:46 You can't host a dist on the local filesystem, yet, but that's a goal. 21:06:57 making it trivial to go from user to contributor seems like a killer feature for encouraging patches from the new horde of CL users that QL is gonna bring in. :) 21:07:49 tcr1 [~tcr@86.Red-83-33-177.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:07 Perhaps unfortunately, I kind of hope there won't be a hoarde of new CL users. But who am I to say. 21:08:58 Quadrescence: I hope there will, relative to the number of current hackers, so, maybe 300 or 400 active new cl hackers would be great. 21:09:25 if 10% of those could become active FOSS contibutors, even better. 21:09:43 -!- RaceCondition is now known as StackUnderflow 21:09:45 the CL job market is on fire! 21:09:59 it is? 21:10:09 afaict. 21:10:10 sykopomp: reminds me of something... 21:10:28 there's 1 opening in Cambridge, any others? 21:10:45 we're still looking for people willing to move to Florida, I believe. 21:10:49 last I checked, at least. 21:10:57 sykopomp: see the file name: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/734346/my_parens_are_on_fire.png 21:11:25 -!- StackUnderflow is now known as StackOverflow 21:11:59 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:12:02 -!- StackOverflow is now known as RaceCondition 21:14:07 Xach: Nice download stats! Any other kinds of stats available yet or soon? Being able to see what projects a certain project uses / is used by would be interesting, for example. 21:14:23 Hexstream: that information is already available in the indexes 21:14:53 http://beta.quicklisp.org/dist/quicklisp/2011-01-10/systems.txt for example could be the basis for big ol' graphviz image. 21:15:23 Hexstream: I'd like to distinguish explicit vs implicit downloads, but I'd have to add some extra code to the client to do that. 21:15:34 -!- dfkjjkfd_ [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:15:54 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.63.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:16:09 A simple file listing where the various sources of metadata are could be useful. 21:16:43 The metadata for project relationships comes from the project .asd files. 21:16:47 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:17:38 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.84.51] has joined #lisp 21:18:06 Yeah, but I'm referring to the "digested" forms of metadata that Quicklisp produces/uses... Or does it do the ASD parsing anew every time?? 21:18:44 slyrus [~chatzilla@dsl081-060-042.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:46 Those are linked from http://beta.quicklisp.org/dist/quicklisp.txt 21:19:27 Ah, awesome! That's what I wanted. (just for curiosity for now) 21:20:05 err, ABCL has patches for CFFI callback support. 21:20:20 (incomplete patches) 21:21:10 http://xach.com/tmp/impls.txt for implementations used 21:21:36 We're not last! 21:22:01 *Xach* is a little surprised by ECL 21:22:04 Although ABCL is the last FLOSS ANSI Common Lisp. 21:22:13 There are a *lot* of iphones. 21:22:17 -!- pers [~user@187.sub-75-198-216.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:22:27 And now there's this iPad thing... 21:22:48 So, ECL is very interesting to a lot of newcomers. 21:23:02 (newcomers to Lisp) 21:23:40 gadek [~konrad@62.121.148.46] has joined #lisp 21:23:59 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:05 -!- mega1 [~user@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:24:12 easyE: I'm wondering if it's the buildbot 21:24:20 *Xach* ponders more analysis via IP correlation 21:28:05 mingus [~nmajo@mi061032.klientdrift.uib.no] has joined #lisp 21:28:45 -!- mingus [~nmajo@mi061032.klientdrift.uib.no] has quit [Client Quit] 21:30:32 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@188.147.170.169.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:31:07 srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 21:32:52 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-137-118.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:36:29 milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw81ffe1d4.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 21:38:45 do any lispers defmethod some operators just for convenience? For example (= "foo" "bar") calls string=, while of course falling back to the default behavior for numbers. 21:39:24 EQUAL is convenient too 21:39:55 wow I picked the worst example 21:40:17 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.15/2009101909]] 21:40:20 (> "foo" "bar") calls string>, for example 21:40:43 of course it's slower, but it's a little less clutter 21:41:22 haven't done that, ever (: 21:41:30 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-77-24.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:31 I've never really been bothered. CL is pretty verbose by nature 21:41:45 chopwood: That doesn't seem a worthwhile improvement to me... Better learn touch-typing perhaps. 21:41:48 mostly because the package system doesn't make it easy or straightforward to do this - especially with exported interfaces 21:42:08 (you can shadow that symbol, but everybody who reads your code will expect > to operate on numbers only 21:42:18 ...and then get confused and scratch their heads) 21:42:32 I haven't done it either, but was just curious about the idea of methodizing existing functions. 21:42:46 well, not worth it in my opinion 21:43:00 you'll have to document prominently what you have done, to avoid confusing future-you or future-code-reader 21:43:05 You can refer to your symbol with an explicit package prefix every time instead, conveniently losing any advantages you could have gained by having a shorter name ;P 21:43:16 chopwood: you'll not only be paying the cost of the dispatch, you'll also be interfering with compiler optimizations 21:43:55 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:44:41 leveldoc [~user@cpe-98-155-196-201.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:44:55 I do wish CL had sane equality. such a pain. 21:44:56 btw this has nothing to do with touch-typing 21:45:00 If such methodisation of operators was a definite plus, it would likely already be part of the standard. 21:45:07 chopwood: there's nothing stopping you, though. :) 21:45:18 Hexstream: not really, methods were a late addition to the language 21:45:20 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:45:28 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw81ffe1d4.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:46:13 foom: There's a great article about equality by Kent M. Pitman (if you or others didn't know): http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html 21:46:14 foom: I think most of the insanity could have been prevented by making equal and equalp into methods, and keeping the rest 21:46:37 foom: what do you mean by "sane" ? 21:46:44 fe[nl]ix: not what CL has. 21:46:50 In short, equality is a hard problem and any solution you find will have lots of arbitrariness. 21:47:23 CL equality predicates seem to have taken the most arbitrary and obnoxious choices possible. :) 21:47:27 aoeuidhtns 21:47:29 bah 21:47:49 foom: I disagree. What would you have done differently? 21:48:58 ianmcorvidae: Dvorak rage? 21:49:10 something like that :P 21:49:23 I guess I'd start with not treating lists and arrays differently under equal. allowing user-specified equality predicates for structures and classes under equal. eliminating equalp. 21:49:28 Good morning everyone! 21:49:31 (mostly just typing into the wrong channel, however :) ) 21:49:48 I haven't looked at the defns for a while, so there may be more 21:50:49 morning beach 21:50:55 austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:12 And, for good measure: remove eql, equal, char=, char-equal, (etc), and just have =. 21:52:31 -!- Ragnaroek [5b0c615f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.12.97.95] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:52:44 so, there you go. 21:52:45 emporas_ [~emporas@athedsl-16756.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 21:52:46 foom: Such changes are easy to provide as a library and would have very little benefit to being part of the language or standard library, IMHO. 21:52:57 wrong. 21:53:02 they would have immense value in being in the standard 21:53:09 they would have negligable value in a library 21:53:30 My last message didn't take your "And, for good measure: remove eql, equal, char=, char-equal, (etc), and just have =." into consideration, just what you said before that. 21:54:29 -!- emporas [~emporas@athedsl-414981.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:54:45 -!- egn_ is now known as egn 21:55:07 It seems that this last set of changes would unnecessarily reduce performance and code readability. You *can* go too far with premature generalization. 21:56:39 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.203.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:58:02 I /like/ eql. 21:58:32 also, char-equal is pretty neat (: 21:58:58 but the equal fix sounds sensible. 21:59:26 -!- leveldoc [~user@cpe-98-155-196-201.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:59:45 I've certainly wished for something like that (: 22:01:12 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:01:26 We could have just eq and equal (generic) 22:02:22 Hexstream: it wouldn't do either. if you declare types, the compiler can optimize to the same code it does now. 22:02:36 foom: char= & co. are useful because they're an implicit type check 22:02:54 sellout [~Adium@pool-71-175-25-141.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:55 fe[nl]ix: not worth the cognitive overhead of a separate function in the standard. 22:03:07 There's no fixnum+ operator, for instance. 22:03:53 But the difference between fixnums and bignums is actually arbitrary and implementation(and platform)-specific. 22:04:02 rread_ [~rread@c-98-234-218-55.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:15 Xach: in http://xach.com/tmp/impls.txt what does "2010101400" refer to? 22:04:17 There's no mathematical difference between dealing with fixnums and bignums. 22:04:25 fine. There's no float+ operator, either. 22:04:27 foom: because + is specified to work on multiple classes of numbers and automatically convert between them if necessary 22:04:29 it's different 22:04:42 -!- two- [~noname@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:05:06 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:05:36 -!- rread [~rread@c-98-234-218-55.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:06:09 Performance concerns aside, there's no algorithm suitable for fixnums that isn't suitable for bignums. But there can be algorithms that make sense when dealing with, say, strings but not any generic sequence. 22:06:21 -!- thorstadt is now known as thorstadt_away 22:06:24 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:06:29 milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw81ffeefa.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 22:06:40 where's my array-equal, then? 22:06:49 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:54 clhs defun 22:07:11 I can say the same to you for char=. 22:07:31 No, because it's already part of the standard. Har, har. 22:08:37 -!- rread_ [~rread@c-98-234-218-55.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:09:19 francogrex [~user@109.130.140.56] has joined #lisp 22:09:32 Hexstream: How's that loopless coming? 22:09:44 pnq [~nick@ACA2F196.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 22:09:50 drdo: I made some good progress, but there's still a TON of work to do. 22:10:01 gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.203.161] has joined #lisp 22:10:30 anyways, it's certainly untrue that there's no algorithm suitable for fixnums that's not suitable for bignums. Lots of algorithms will have disasterous performance if you use them with bignums because of the extra ($copying-overhead * log(value)) factor in the time. You really need mutable bignums for good performance with some algorithms. But that's a side issue. :) 22:10:35 It seems like I have to take 10 design decisions at every turn, and there are a lot of turns. It's tiring. Language design is HARD. Let's go shopping!! 22:10:52 I could actually help, i'm interested in seeing what you're thinking about 22:10:55 rread [~rread@c-98-234-218-55.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:09 Hexstream: welcome to advanced languages - you spend weeks thinking, to code stuff in two days 22:11:52 that's great! because you get to achieve the same thing in 10% of the total code size. 22:12:02 Lately I spent a lot of time ramping up my knowledge of handling of declarations. This shit is much more subtle and hard to get right than would appear at first :/ 22:12:18 btw, anyone here used ISAAC/ISAAC64 ? (a cprng) 22:12:26 (used in anger, that is) 22:13:00 Hexstream: newsflash - optimization is hard 22:13:51 p_l|backup: Yeah. My appreciation of some of the features of Common Lisp has really reached new heights. Like FLET, SYMBOL-MACROLET and SETF. 22:14:19 *p_l|backup* recently started reading Let over Lambda 22:14:36 Hexstream: trying to implement a new lisp? 22:14:56 ehu: No, a replacement for LOOP that bests it in every possible way. 22:14:58 try to obscure existing 22:15:03 s/try/trying/ 22:15:51 well, why would you need that? I'm not too fond of LOOP in general, but it's good enough 95% of the time. 22:16:17 ehu: And when it isn't, it's very annoying 22:16:58 so I divert to other looping constructs, DO/DO*, DOTIMES, etc. 22:16:59 drdo: you just need to apply Loop Oriented Programming paradigm 22:17:16 ehu: divert to iterate instead 22:17:29 drdo: Thanks for the offer, but for now I'd rather go solo. I pursue many ideas, do a lot of thinking about what's useful or not, what's conventional enough or not, etc, and I take a lot of false turns that I reject later... There's a ton of noise in my project, and a lot of stupid things that would be easy to rightfully criticize... 22:17:38 it basically means that you write your programs in a way that doesn't need annoying features of LOOP 22:17:52 Hexstream: I feel exactly the same on my projects 22:17:53 So I want to let things simmer in my head and take my time, and don't bother people with silly ideas. 22:17:53 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 22:17:58 sometimes i think i'm just retarded 22:18:03 probably right 22:20:24 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:21:29 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 22:21:30 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.140.56] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:21:48 rvirding [~chatzilla@h134n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 22:22:04 carlocci [~nes@93.37.176.7] has joined #lisp 22:22:13 -!- gadek [~konrad@62.121.148.46] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 22:22:19 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:29 -!- rins [~user@173-162-214-174-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:23:46 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:25:12 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483C3A4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:26:57 -!- cheezus [~Adium@75-119-248-180.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:28:44 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-137-118.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:30:08 -!- sellout [~Adium@pool-71-175-25-141.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:31:33 cheezus [~Adium@75-119-248-180.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 22:31:35 -!- cheezus [~Adium@75-119-248-180.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 22:31:41 enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-76-245-60-219.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:40 jesusito [~user@91.pool85-49-229.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 22:36:54 antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:37:55 -!- morphling [~stefan@95.117.92.158] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:41:00 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:42:33 is any of the gtk bindings using GObject introspection? (the one that is going into GTK3?) 22:44:23 ssacc [~sa@91-66-179-192-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 22:46:19 sellout [~Adium@pool-71-175-25-141.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:40 guinness [~user@132.207.182.58] has joined #lisp 22:46:45 -!- sellout is now known as Guest64530 22:46:59 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:48:15 rasterba_ [~rasterbar@adsl-99-109-200-125.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:48:50 -!- guinness [~user@132.207.182.58] has quit [Client Quit] 22:50:02 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 22:50:12 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:50:23 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:50:23 463 Quicklisp downloads for metabang-bind?? About as popular as iterate? That's a surprise. I thought metabang-bind was widely frowned upon and iterate was much more liked. Puzzling. 22:50:34 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:51:24 it doesn't account for what's downloaded as a dependency 22:51:35 and i bet gwking uses metabang-bind 22:51:42 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-167-222.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:52:06 Ah, right. 22:52:16 -!- rasterba_ [~rasterbar@adsl-99-109-200-125.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:52:42 So this "detail" really can't be ignored. 22:53:03 -!- Guest64530 [~Adium@pool-71-175-25-141.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:55:17 It also doesn't distinguish between downloads for serious projects and people who are just messing around. Adding that info will take some client code changes. 22:55:39 For example, I should exclude stats for people who are trying to make a Lisp IRC client. 22:55:45 Or at least flag them in some way. 22:56:39 (download-package package :serious (y-or-n-p "Are your intentions serious?")) 22:58:08 Hexstream: I was just looking at your loopless. I assume that you don't like iterate -- any reason? 22:58:20 Hum. So trying to make a Lisp IRC client correlates strongly to "not being serious"? (Happily, I'm not trying to make a Lisp IRC client.) 22:58:28 foom: http://within-parens.blogspot.com/2011/01/all-things-being-equal.html 23:00:31 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@86.Red-83-33-177.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:00:43 chopwood: Iterate is, at best, a huge *incremental* improvement over LOOP. It shares the same basic "architecture" and philosophies. I'm not really interested in going into details here and now about how I don't deem Iterate good enough. The Loopless 2.0 documentation will include such details. 23:01:02 oh christ. we're not on the evils of loop again, are we? 23:01:10 -!- rien is now known as rien|work|away 23:01:17 Indeed we are my good sir, PICK YOUR FACTION 23:02:01 (loop for faction in factions do (dolist (point (points faction)) (reiterate (point faction)))) 23:02:05 seeing as how we don't live in the best of all possible worlds, and loop is in every ansi compliant implementation, I'll live with it. 23:02:09 er. something like that at least (: 23:02:19 i don't use iteration at all, i unroll everything by hand 23:02:42 like a real man 23:02:51 loop keeps things lively 23:02:57 it's always the element of most surprise. 23:03:08 where would we get our kneejerk anti-loop-isms? (; 23:03:13 .oO(I didn't know you could do that!) 23:06:46 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:07:40 Fade: too complex IMO. As "best of intentions" paper says, there's arbitrarily many equality predicates you could define. That doesn't mean there's arbitrarily many that make sense for the language to provide. It should provide two: pointer equality, and an extensible generic equality function which is recursive on the standard container types. 23:07:51 But again, I don't think this is something that can be fixed by adding yet another one in a library 23:09:11 i thought the pitman analysis was interesting; i hadn't read it before. 23:09:54 Fade: For what it's worth, I completely abandoned the idea of convincing anyone that LOOP is evil. I'm just trying to make something that will be strictly more powerful, convenient and practical. In fact, when I see the "sins" that people "tolerate" from LOOP, it confirms that I can use some of these same approaches safely enough. 23:10:26 well, i think that's a healthy response to a belief. 23:11:04 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:11:09 talk is cheap, show us the code! 23:11:34 ITER! 23:11:53 *mathrick* needs to look seriously at drewc's rewrite of ITER without codewalking 23:12:51 is any of the gtk bindings using GObject introspection? (the one that is going into GTK3?) <-- not fully. I've done some work that'd ultimately be useful in preparing cl-gtk2 for full gobject-introspection, but it's not implemented as of yet 23:13:00 stassats: There'd be very little code to show right now. And it just doesn't do justice to what the final product will be. 23:13:15 btw, what's wrong with metabang-bind? 23:13:35 (besides the fact gwking regularly "refactors" his libraries in ways that break everything ever) 23:14:19 mathrick: As far as I'm concerned: That it's just a more compact and obscure way of saying the same things you can already say with standard constructs, without really providing any or very little additional value. 23:14:55 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw81ffeefa.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:14:58 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:16:57 mathrick: hmmm.. I was thinking of simply writing the GObject Introspection support for CL, without focusing on any single toolkit (well, I was thinking of clutter at the time) 23:17:06 Hexstream: but the syntax does actually matter. There are so many binding constructs in CL, which differ basically only by the exact type of thing they bind to, that it stands to reason to try to unify them 23:17:57 p_l|backup: if you can do it generically... but every GTK+ binding will have some version of the MOP hackery to map the classes, and I don't think you can abstract it usefully 23:18:39 so you'd have to write the basic, straightforward, low-level mapping to the GIntrospection API 23:19:01 mathrick: what about creating a MOP abstraction of the GObject model? :) 23:19:01 p_l|backup: btw, cl-gtk2 is not really limited to only wrapping GTK+ 23:19:06 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 23:19:26 p_l|backup: that's what every bindings package does. If you write yet another one, it will serve no-one 23:19:46 mathrick: I know, but the docs weren't clear for me at the moment, haven't had time to look at the sources 23:19:51 mathrick: Yes, it's an idea worth investigating, but when I look at the final product, weighting the pros (ex: more compact) and cons (ex: less conventional), it doesn't seem to me like we come out ahead with it. But everyone is entitled to their pet approaches in their own projects. 23:19:52 because it won't be of use for any of the existing projects which have an established MOP mapping 23:20:15 mathrick: I don't mean to rewrite it from scratch, but to provide it separate from GTK+ (or any other) binding 23:21:01 Hexstream: I don't think binding is really a concept which has a huge potential for being obscure and surprising. You learn the idea, and that's it; as long as all the bindings types you add have a modicum of sanity, it's easy to figure out what things do 23:21:24 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:21:41 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-178-117.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:03 p_l|backup: but whom would it serve? CL-GTK2 has an existing MOP mapping machinery. If you write a GObjectIntrospection-to-MOP mapping, rather than adding the support to CL-GTK2's machinery, you will make it impossible to use your code with CL-GTK2 23:22:22 and the same holds for any other wrapping for GTK+, or other GObject libraries 23:22:52 p_l|backup: cl-gtk2 is well-structured, and contains a completely separate GObject package on top of which the actual library called "CL-GTK2" is built 23:23:03 just make that support gobject-introspection 23:23:43 mathrick: actually, I was simply underinformed about how easily it would be to use cl-gtk2's support for it without GTK bindings themselves 23:23:46 in fact, I've used its machinery to make a (partial) binding to GooCanvas, which is a library that builds on pure GObject, completely sidestepping GTK+ 23:24:22 the biggest problem is that GooCanvas does things in a subtly different way than is conventional, and also in a way that basically guarantees you can only ever use it from C 23:24:45 I've got a big bag of CL-GTK2 patches that resulted in 23:25:15 tronador_ [~guille@190.253.157.83] has joined #lisp 23:25:26 urandom__ [~user@p548A662D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:26:38 Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.242.124] has joined #lisp 23:29:08 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-178-117.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 23:31:15 sc0ty` [~user@a85-138-126-73.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 23:31:38 rvncerr_ [~rvncerr@rvncerr.org] has joined #lisp 23:31:49 -!- dkasak_ [~dkasak@93-141-124-88.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:31:49 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:31:49 -!- ssacc [~sa@91-66-179-192-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:31:49 -!- keyvan [~keyvan@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:31:49 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:31:49 -!- sc0ty [~user@a85-138-126-73.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:31:50 -!- kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:31:50 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-243-235.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:31:50 -!- rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-218-51-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:31:50 -!- Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:31:50 -!- nurv101 [~nurv101@2001:690:2100:2:4687:fcff:fe91:9c05] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:31:50 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-51-60.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:31:50 -!- rvncerr [~rvncerr@rvncerr.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:31:50 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:32:09 nurv101 [~nurv101@2001:690:2100:2:4687:fcff:fe91:9c05] has joined #lisp 23:32:10 ssacc [~sa@91-66-179-192-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 23:32:28 keyvan [~keyvan@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:30 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-51-60.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 23:32:37 dkasak [~dkasak@93-141-124-88.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 23:32:41 rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-218-51-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 23:32:41 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:32:47 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 23:33:04 kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has joined #lisp 23:33:23 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-243-235.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:33:54 z- [~daniel@c934a93a.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 23:34:16 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 23:34:36 -!- z- is now known as zmv 23:34:42 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 23:35:04 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 23:35:14 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp 23:36:03 metabang-bind is a neat idea, but (as is usual with CL), it already has all sorts of weird non-orthogonal syntax, and it's unclear if adding one more is really a win. e.g. (setf (values a b) (x)) works, but (let (((values a b) (x))) ..) doesn't. (loop for (a nil b) = (x)) works but (destructuring-bind (a nil b) (x) ..) doesn't. 23:36:42 -!- milanj [~milanj_@77-46-169-114.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:37:08 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 23:38:03 -!- jesusito [~user@91.pool85-49-229.dynamic.orange.es] has left #lisp 23:38:34 -!- zmv is now known as nobody 23:39:05 -!- nobody is now known as zmv 23:39:06 zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 23:41:55 Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 23:41:59 -!- jweiss [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:44:56 foom: if (x) returns a list of three elements, that destructuring-bind should work. 23:45:54 pjb: wrong answer, please try again. ;p 23:46:21 I remembered wrongly :-( 23:46:57 But thank you for the concise illustration of the problem. :) 23:49:08 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-165-93.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:49:41 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:51:39 So `arnesi:aif' or `arnesi:if-bind'? with `if-bind' evaluation causes VAR to becomes an internal symbol of package. With aif external packages must either import `:it' or in the alternative remember to alwasy ref the it as `:it'... 23:52:55 jearl [~user@jearl.fttp.xmission.com] has joined #lisp 23:53:46 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Quit: eugu] 23:54:56 mathrick: btw, could you upload your Genera VM somewhere? 23:56:56 TeMPOraL [~user@188.146.139.186.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has joined #lisp 23:58:12 p_l|backup: might be slightly hard atm, I'm in my bed already, and it's not properly cleaned up yet. If you could remind me over the next few days, I should get around to doing it 23:58:41 mathrick: ok 23:59:23 Xach: at http://xach.com/tmp/downloads.txt whats sitting at the empty 9? e.g. asn.1 9 8 s-protobuf 23:59:23 23:59:23 23:59:40 -!- sako is now known as sako|AFK