00:00:12 tronador_ [~guille@190.255.83.103] has joined #lisp 00:02:22 -!- superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.148] has quit [Quit: superflit] 00:07:14 lakatos [~istvan@c3.uaic.ro] has joined #lisp 00:07:17 Hey GUys 00:07:32 What are your thoughts on SICP? 00:08:01 -!- davazp [~user@15.Red-83-57-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:11:17 -!- LiamH1 [~none@132.250.138.103] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:12:57 lakatos, it's good. Well worth reading. 00:13:33 i've yet to hear of anyone not liking it 00:13:42 the main complaint seems to be that for some the math is too hard 00:15:11 cmatei, if it's for use by people who are not Lisp specialists, I recommend the second form 00:15:24 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-50-81.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:15:46 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-50-81.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:26 lakatos: It is one of those books that people with a long experience in programming using several different programming languages will read, and then go right ahead an recommend it to someone who hasn't programmed before, whereas I don't think it is a good book for beginners. 00:19:49 lakatos: Actually, let me change that last statement a bit: maybe it is a good book for beginning MIT students, but for everybody else, it is not so great. 00:20:30 milkpost [~milkpost@63-254-107-162.ip.mcleodusa.net] has joined #lisp 00:20:35 rwallace: it is 00:21:44 -!- keyvan [~keyvan@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:23:05 rwallace: i'm curious about your choice. the second option seems more syntax-heavy to me 00:23:17 Maybe, but it has fewer brackets 00:23:48 keyvan [~keyvan@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:24:07 :) that is true 00:24:45 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.177.143] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 00:25:56 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-212-47.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 00:26:38 rwallace: thanks 00:26:49 np ^.^ 00:27:22 -!- chemuduguntar [~ravic@smtp.touchcut.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:27:23 LittleQNCCU [~littleq@dream.cs.nccu.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 00:28:18 beach, I'd consider it a great book for everybody setting foot on the 'so you want to be a programmer' track. It'll either get you started fast, or - equally important - help you realize you made the wrong choice while there's still time to change 00:29:21 For someone who does _not_ want to be a programmer, but just wants to know a bit of coding to help with their primary job, it might not be such a good introductory book, I'll grant that 00:32:55 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:04 -!- LittleQNCCU [~littleq@dream.cs.nccu.edu.tw] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:34:40 -!- sellout [~Adium@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:36:07 Is it a big problem if one skips most of the exercises? 00:36:35 I mean, are they there only to practice programming, or are they essential to understand following chapters? 00:36:37 peterhil: Heya. I tracked down the issue. I'll test the attachment stuff a little more and push the fixes to develop. Thanks for the heads-up! 00:36:41 lakatos, well, what's your background? If you're already a veteran, I suppose not, but if you're a beginner, I think you would do much better to do all the exercises 00:36:41 in sicp ? yes :-) 00:37:02 'm still kinda a beginner :) 00:37:22 Then I strongly recommend doing all the exercises 00:37:26 I notice that SBCL supports the #! form, and Clisp at least doesn't object to it. Is it safe to assume that most or all implementations will be okay with it? 00:37:53 It's just that I find Scheme a little annoying to use :P 00:38:09 I use Emacs and there's no real REPL :P 00:38:36 lakatos, try racket, it's about the best scheme implementation around, and definitely does provide a real repl 00:38:59 Or alternatively, do the exercises in common Lisp instead, consider the translation (which should be quite easy) as a bit of extra credit work :-) 00:39:39 But sicp is already a fast, intensive ramp-up through levels of understanding that many professional programmers never reach in their lifetimes. There isn't really any skippable fluff in it 00:39:40 I can handle the translation :) 00:39:49 Cool :-) 00:39:55 LittleQNCCU [~littleq@dream.cs.nccu.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 00:39:59 sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:40:36 lakatos: you should try xscheme.el, iirc 00:40:46 I was thinking of doing that. But I wasn't sure if there was something scheme specific going on that I wouldn't be able to do in COmmon Lisp 00:40:51 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:40:59 Yes, I'm using xscheme 00:41:14 But it doesn't provide a real repl 00:41:24 i'd say that is a fairly decent repl 00:41:28 I have to Meta-Z every expression I finish 00:41:42 As far as I remember, continuations are the only thing scheme has that common Lisp really hasn't, and I don't remember those being used in sicp (I'm open to correction on that, it's been a while) 00:41:44 And I forget 00:42:51 for the larger problems, you should send the whole buffer to eval 00:42:58 Thanks then. I'm off to devour SICP :) 00:43:05 cool ^.^ 00:43:20 I only read the first 30 pages so far, and I'm already impressed 00:43:28 -!- ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has left #lisp 00:43:37 I especially liked the way he explained tail calls 00:44:20 yeah. the first 30 pages or so are mind blowing if you have some programming experience beforehand :-) 00:44:28 amb007 [~a_bakic@87.29.195-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 00:45:11 cmatei, you romanian? 00:45:27 yes, why ? 00:45:33 Salutare :) 00:45:47 -!- LittleQNCCU [~littleq@dream.cs.nccu.edu.tw] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:45:49 (I'm too :P) 00:45:56 ah, ok ;-) 00:46:12 Where you from? 00:46:28 bucharest 00:47:04 lakatos: interested in the philosopher imre lakatos? 00:47:24 I'm from Sfantu Gheorghe, Covasna 00:47:51 alama: I have not heard of him before 00:47:57 ok 00:48:01 the land of decent goulash :-) 00:49:34 And kurtos kalacs :-) 00:50:19 that too 00:50:20 thanks for mentioning imre lakatos by the way, alama. I have got to look into his past a little 00:51:02 Good night/day everyone 00:51:09 -!- lakatos [~istvan@c3.uaic.ro] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:52:10 -!- dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:52:12 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 00:52:16 dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has joined #lisp 00:52:58 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:53:25 LittleQNCCU [~littleq@dream.cs.nccu.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 00:53:48 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 00:54:03 Spion__ [~spion@77.29.250.12] has joined #lisp 00:54:45 -!- OliverUv_ [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:54:50 OliverUv [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has joined #lisp 01:02:15 wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-24-193-121-20.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:02:55 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@87.29.195-77.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:04:50 ApeShot [~user@cpe-075-189-204-195.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:05:24 Is there any reason to prefer marking exports in a package.lisp file over using the export function in the source code itself? 01:05:32 Or does my question itself reveal a misunderstanding? 01:07:26 ApeShot: i think sbcl issues warnings when redefining a package with missing exports 01:07:38 Missing exports? 01:07:56 well you redefine a package with less exports than previously 01:07:58 Like if you export something in the code, but don't list it in the package definition 01:08:10 amb007 [~a_bakic@87.29.195-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 01:08:35 ApeShot: keeping a full list of your exported symbols is a good thing : breaking API is harder this way 01:09:01 Yes, but when I do something by hand that I could imagine a computer doing, I get nervous 01:09:04 Because man makes mistakes 01:09:26 yea, it's dumb. 01:09:49 I have heard it said that one might define macros like defun+ and defmacro+ that automatically export symbols 01:09:55 This seems like an ok idea to me, at first glance 01:10:07 The code documents the symbol status, and you don't have to look someplace else. 01:10:22 But then I have to figure out how to tell emacs to indent and highlight these just like defun and defmacro 01:10:35 And you'd need one for defgeneric and defvar and defcustom and the whole thing 01:10:42 ApeShot: the best way I think is to have an exports-only package and an internals one 01:10:53 antifuchs: can you elaborate? 01:11:02 also, you don't export functions and macros and generics and variables 01:11:04 just symbols 01:11:09 do (in-package :project-internal) ; in every file 01:11:26 and (defun project:exported-name ...) 01:11:33 foom: yes, but you still need macros which automatically export each symbol as the appropriate form is called 01:11:34 then export the symbols explicitly 01:12:02 using the function-based pkg manipulation interface is a pain, IMHO 01:12:14 (much like typing onthis awful netbook. argh) 01:12:22 antifuchs: I feel your pain 01:12:52 Is it against some orthodoxy to observe that the package system feels a bit crufty? 01:13:10 I guess they do in every language 01:13:31 that way, you get a clearly defined interface which reflects reality in code, and as an added bonus, your external package contains only exported symbols (: 01:13:58 some parts of it are annoying, but there are ways to use it that minimize pain 01:14:13 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@63-254-107-162.ip.mcleodusa.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 01:14:38 IMO the biggest problem with the package system is that it was designed to work with the crufty symbol system that CL had. 01:14:38 I'll just hand-export them, I guess. 01:14:43 which is hardly its fault. :) 01:14:57 (and anyone will feel super-bad for reaching into internals because they have to type project-internals::some-sekrit-symbol) 01:14:57 -!- Axioplas1 [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 01:15:32 Its just a very unusual feeling to be sitting down to hack at a lisp and then have to do lots of tedious things by hand. 01:15:44 The whole point of the language is to avoid doing tedious things by hand. 01:15:50 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:57 heh 01:16:01 Wrap up tedium in tighter and tighter packages 01:16:25 quicklisp helps immeasurably (ok, its probably measurably, but a lot) 01:16:31 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-212-47.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:17:42 Axioplase [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 01:18:15 anyone have any experience trying to get cxml to read dtds? specifically loose.dtd from w3.org? 01:19:38 usually you don't want your xml parser to read dtds from websites 01:20:46 yes, I downloaded it and stuck it in the catalog 01:21:12 but, cxml declares it to be malformed because the comment convention is odd 01:22:28 for instance: 01:24:21 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-212-47.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 01:26:05 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 01:26:24 hmm, it complains about more than just that :( 01:27:04 has anyone gotten cxml to parse http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd successfully? 01:27:37 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Quit: eugu] 01:28:17 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-76-69.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:32:45 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-76-69.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 01:32:59 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h134n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 01:34:48 sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:35:28 -!- xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:35:47 rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 01:36:08 -!- psilord2 [~psilord@adsl-99-153-135-105.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:37:33 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 01:40:54 ffp [~f@201.19.202.171] has joined #lisp 01:41:13 ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has joined #lisp 01:41:22 ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 01:41:47 -!- ffp [~f@201.19.202.171] has quit [Client Quit] 01:42:34 sykopomp: Thanks! 01:43:01 psilord1 [~psilord@adsl-99-153-135-105.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:04 -!- psilord1 [~psilord@adsl-99-153-135-105.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 01:43:31 hi, how can I convert double-float (that is a whole number) to integer? I'm thinking about round, but is there something more straightforward? 01:43:42 peterhil: The attachment API was incredibly broken. I don't know what was going through my head when I committed it. :) 01:43:57 ignotus: What is not straightforward about round? 01:44:26 codelurker [~codelurke@99-27-219-233.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:44:38 beach: when I see (setf foo (round foo)) I'm thinking about "rounding" not, casting a double-float to integer 01:45:05 something like (coerce foo 'integer) would be more readable for me 01:45:14 ignotus: I am sorry to hear that. 01:46:08 ignotus: ... beacause coerce doesn't say whether you want to round it or truncate it, and if you want to truncate it, doesn't say whether towards 0 or minus infinity. 01:46:10 ignotus: There is a set of operations for this  round, ceiling, floor, truncate  they each have different semantics. Sounds like you want round  unless you're _really_ sure it's an exact value, then use truncate. 01:46:52 sellout: yeah it is an exact value, thanks 01:47:22 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:48:35 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@183.106.96.22] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:48:48 setmeaway [~setmeaway@183.106.96.22] has joined #lisp 01:50:16 Or you could use floor, and check. 01:50:31 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-76-69.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:51:59 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-76-69.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 01:54:44 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-76-69.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 01:55:20 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-76-69.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 01:55:22 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:58:39 Arelius [d0507552@gateway/web/freenode/ip.208.80.117.82] has joined #lisp 01:58:52 -!- ApeShot [~user@cpe-075-189-204-195.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:59:39 I'm interested in detecting if a function takes one or two arguments, and passing it differen't parameters depending on that, Can I do that, and if so, would it be considered a resonable thing to do? 01:59:58 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:01:39 Not portably afaik, and no. 02:01:53 What problem do you expect to solve with this technique? 02:04:18 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 02:05:46 Arelius: Assume it takes one argumetn, pass it the right one, in an error handler, call it with two arguments instead. 02:06:25 Huh, yes. 02:06:36 That actually makes terriable sense. 02:06:37 Arelius: But yeah, this is one of those things where we ask "what is it that you *really* want to do?" 02:07:02 Yeah, I'm not sure that's what I want to do.. 02:07:09 am0c [~am0c@180.224.41.34] has joined #lisp 02:07:19 And I expect that beach's suggestion will fail horribly at various optimize and debug levels. 02:07:30 So, what problem are you trying to solve? 02:07:37 I want to be able to pass in animation functions, and take in x, y coords, and animate it directlly, or pass in a t coord, and derive the interpolation based on that. 02:08:05 Well, why not pass all three arguments, and use an appropriate translating wrapper? 02:08:22 Yeah, I might. I was just trying to figure out my optionsl. 02:08:25 options* 02:08:41 Or why not separate the two classes of function? 02:08:57 It'd be elegant for user created interpolation, if they could just create the function and not worry about it I suppose. 02:09:02 But I'm unsure if that's ideal. 02:09:21 Why not have the user create two functions? 02:09:53 gko [~gko@111.70.49.44] has joined #lisp 02:10:28 mducharme [~nothing@S0106002401f31855.wp.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:29 -!- mducharme1 [~nothing@S0106002401f31855.wp.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:10:50 Well, if they just want to animate the interpolation speed, which is most common, they will never need to make a second function with two args. 02:11:14 So, they can pass in an error function. 02:11:14 But if they want to manually animate the x, y coords, they still only need to make one function, but it's just the other one. 02:11:23 Which you can provide for them. 02:12:08 (foo #'my-fun #'no-interpolation) or whatever. 02:12:20 -!- codelurker [~codelurke@99-27-219-233.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 02:12:29 And if that's a burden, they can write (bar #'my-fun) that calls foo like that. 02:12:37 What I might do, is pass in all the data, and just have them call an interpolate function when they only want to animate the interpolation 02:13:14 so (foo (lambda (x y t) (interpolate x y (blah t))) 02:14:19 -!- timack [~tim@hlfx59-1-62.ns.sympatico.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:14:31 ok, anyone have a favorite xml parser besides cxml? 02:14:31 Conflating semantically distinct interfaces is a sin, imho. 02:14:32 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:14:35 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-212-47.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:14:53 If you want to let the user provide functionality to do two separate things, let them provide the functionality to do two separate things. 02:15:05 They can always fuse the back-ends together if they prefer. 02:15:14 Zhivago: But the problem is that they are mutually exclusive. 02:15:38 So what? 02:15:59 Elephants and handbags might be mutually exclusive -- but that doesn't bloody well mean that I want to store them in the same box. 02:16:00 It seems worrysome when the user does 02:16:22 And tomorrow you'll have some other stupid functionality that you'll shove in which doesn't fit with this accident. 02:16:29 (foo #'my-fun #'my-otherfun) and one or the other functions goes randomlly unused. 02:16:55 So, provide a goddamned standard goddamned error raising goddamned function for them. 02:17:18 And if that isn't enough, make two versions of foo. 02:17:43 (foo-bar #'my-fun) and (bar-foo #'my-otherfun) 02:17:52 I think in this case, the elephant and handbags anology is streatched. 02:18:05 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has quit [Quit: sleep] 02:18:24 You're trying to jam together random crap on the assumption that there will never be any collisions and that this will somehow benefit someone. 02:18:48 Zhivago: Ok, perhaps I should better explain, the crap isn't random or unrelated 02:18:53 it'd work like this 02:18:55 Today it isn't. 02:19:01 k9quaint: you there? 02:19:09 rien: yep 02:19:11 What about tomorrow, when you realize that you made a mistake in your design and change it? 02:19:17 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-76-69.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:19:25 k9quaint: hey remember the suggestion of contacting the author? 02:19:39 And why confuse the user by having one bucket for elephants and eels on alternate days rather than one bucket for elephants and one bucket for eels? 02:19:40 yeah? 02:19:51 This seems like a perfect kind of anti-feature, imho. 02:19:56 Ok, I'm trying to better explain this. 02:20:05 k9quaint: I got in touch with Eric Benson, one of the two authors, he said it's fine by him to release the book into public domain 02:20:13 The data is the same, except one is the same data with extra processing. 02:20:22 k9quaint: however I still have to talk to Molly (the other author) and to the publisher 02:20:38 rien: 1 down, 2 to go :) 02:20:44 so (foo (fun1 fun2) (if fun1 (bar fun1) fun2)) 02:20:46 k9quaint: he said molly might have the TEX text so we could have a gorgeous pdf :) 02:20:49 k9quaint: yep! 02:20:51 and foo always returns the same data. 02:21:27 arelius: What does that have to do with the user provided functions? 02:21:36 evening all 02:21:40 arelius: Are those getting the same data? 02:21:48 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 02:21:53 arelius: Do those have the same semantics? 02:22:45 sorry: (foo (fun1 fun2) (if fun1 (bar (fun (baz x y)) (fun2 x y))) 02:23:09 if I have a list like so ((a)(b)(c)(d) :foo hello :foo2 goodbye :oof hi) how can I turn that into ((a)(b)(c)(d)) i.e. just strip the keyword properties 02:23:16 And what's the problem with that? You're worried that the burden of passing in two arguments will cause the user problems? 02:23:19 The data is all the same, just that in one case some of the work is done automatically. 02:23:26 Is this about RSI? 02:25:05 Zhivago: Well I feel (foo (lambda (x y) (bar (blah (baz x y))))) might be preferable to (foo (lambda(t) (blah t)) #'err) 02:25:14 As far as clarity of usage goes. 02:25:25 So, write one interface in terms of the other. 02:25:44 Or have two versions of the code that calls the handler, so that you can get rid of the if. 02:26:08 I was wondering why (caar list) doesn't work 02:26:24 because there are only two keyword properties at the end 02:26:44 because from what I was reading, caar should be doing it 02:27:12 (caar '((a)(b)(c)(d) :foo hello :foo2 goodbye :oof hi)) => 'a 02:29:11 huangho [~root@201-35-78-190.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 02:30:04 yeah, why is that? 02:30:07 I don't understand 02:30:17 -!- jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:31:19 I would figure (caar '((a)(b)(c)(d) :foo hello :foo2 goodbye :oof hi)) would evaluate to ((a)(b)(c)(d) :foo hello) 02:31:30 mducharme: in pair notation the list looks like this: '((a . ()) . ((b . ()) . ((c . ()) . ....So on... 02:32:00 so, (car '((a)(b)(c)(d) ....)) => (a) 02:32:15 (a) is the first element in the list 02:32:20 (b) the second 02:32:28 car gets the first element in the list 02:32:54 (caar '((a))) is the same as (car (car '((a)))) 02:33:20 So, the first car returns the first element of the list '((a . ()) . ()) 02:33:22 oh crap 02:33:27 which is (a . ()) 02:33:28 sorry I totally misread the function 02:33:32 I am new to lisp 02:33:32 np 02:33:38 Yeah :) 02:33:40 I thought that car did the same thing as cdr only on the other side of the list 02:34:06 So, what you need to understand is that both car and cdr work on pairs. 02:34:25 which make them really lightweight because they don't have to allocate anything. 02:34:29 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:34:35 right 02:34:40 how do I do an anti-car then? 02:34:56 well 02:35:04 backwards cdr is better word for it 02:35:12 Well, it's not quite as simple, because you can't pull something off of the end of a list without either mutating the list (normally bad) or building a new list. 02:35:20 I want to return a list except the last elements 02:35:21 ok 02:35:29 I think subseq maybee? 02:36:24 clhs butlast 02:36:51 mducharme: yeah, that. 02:36:55 ahh! 02:37:53 Do keep in mind though, unlike car and cdr, that actually needs to create a new list. 02:38:24 So call it once, pass it a big enough 'n' 02:38:29 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:42:20 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483A96D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:46:06 aurgh, this data set is going to be more complicated than I thought 02:49:39 -!- huangho [~root@201-35-78-190.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 02:50:00 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-24-193-121-20.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 02:53:02 peterhil: I just pushed a new tag to github which fixes the attachment API (as well as some other broken bits). Thanks again! 02:53:37 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-167-243.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:54:13 would anybody take paypal $ to write me a function? ;) 02:54:33 is it homework? 02:54:38 nope 02:54:41 not really 02:55:40 what I am generating with it is homework, but as for the code itself that does it, the teacher does not care whether I use a pre-existing function or write my own 02:56:13 with only a few days of lisp experience, it is a bit beyond me 02:56:50 I am doing algorithmic music composition on the computer 02:57:04 the teacher would actually prefer me to use someone elses function instead of writing my own 02:57:19 because that would give me more time to compose and less time writing code 02:57:58 mducharme: Probably by the time you write a proper specification for this function, it will become obvious how to write it ... 02:58:05 mducharme: I suggest doing that. 02:58:15 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:58:18 I have the algorithm developed 02:58:22 I do not know how to implement it 02:58:50 I know how the list must be processed and divided up 02:59:10 but being new to PWGL, I don't know how to tell it to do what I want 02:59:52 -!- Dawgmatix [~dman@c-24-0-146-14.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:00:21 -!- alama [~alama@a79-169-84-216.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: alama] 03:00:48 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:02:22 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 03:02:59 milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 03:05:12 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:06:14 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 03:11:13 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:11:41 -!- hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279634335.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:13:04 -!- npoektop [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:14:08 shirleyt [~shirl@pool-96-234-197-72.bltmmd.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:12 hello 03:14:18 i need help with asdf 03:14:26 -!- vilsonvieira [~vilson@h08100.ifsc.usp.br] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 03:15:24 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:15:50 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 03:17:09 hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441425.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 03:18:17 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-167-243.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:21:39 -!- NateYuan [~byuan@61.148.56.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:24:48 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 03:25:49 NateYuan [~byuan@61.148.56.138] has joined #lisp 03:26:10 shirleyt: Ask your question. 03:27:29 i'm having issues setting it up using this page 03:27:33 http://www.cliki.net/FirstStepsWithAsdfAndAsdfInstall 03:29:10 If you're trying to use asdf-install, you probably shouldn't. Use quicklisp instead. 03:29:17 aiight 03:29:45 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe5ddc00-120.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: RaceCondition] 03:29:55 thanks 03:30:04 No problem. 03:30:06 looking at the man pages right now 03:30:53 Man pages? There are man pages for quicklisp? 03:34:29 huangho [~vitor@201-35-78-190.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 03:42:05 -!- Spion__ [~spion@77.29.250.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:42:06 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 03:43:58 simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:43:58 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 03:43:58 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 03:44:49 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:48:21 wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-24-193-121-20.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:56:39 psilord1 [~psilord@76.201.155.174] has joined #lisp 04:00:51 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:01:41 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:03:33 Trace, it turns out, works on macros as well as functions. This rocks. 04:06:37 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 04:08:52 is there a simple way to decide whether something should be a macro or a function? 04:09:49 Well the way I do it is very simple - if it needs to be a macro, make it one, if it could equally well be either, make it a function 04:09:50 Does it only involve pass-by-value? 04:10:09 If not, write a macro that turns it into something that only involves macros or pass-by-value. 04:10:51 pass-by-value meaning the input and return are direct values? 04:12:06 Meaning that you pass the values of bindings, not those bindings. 04:12:30 -!- leo2007 [~leo@120.33.27.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:13:45 ah, ok 04:14:05 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:14:29 from what I remember, On Lisp has a fairly good discussion of this subject 04:16:11 npoektop [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 04:18:09 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-167-243.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:20:53 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:21:06 -!- pabst [~anonymous@208.74.177.139.static.etheric.net] has quit [Quit: pabst] 04:26:22 krfs [~jonata@189-16-43-233.cte.net.br] has joined #lisp 04:26:35 -!- krfs [~jonata@189-16-43-233.cte.net.br] has left #lisp 04:29:19 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 04:33:45 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 04:36:29 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 04:36:32 -!- psilord1 [~psilord@76.201.155.174] has left #lisp 04:37:54 pnq [~nick@ACA225EA.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 04:39:12 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-24-193-121-20.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 04:51:08 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-97-25.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:51:27 evening 04:51:38 -!- kanru1 [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 04:52:01 kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has joined #lisp 04:52:52 Evening! 04:53:15 One thing I'm not understanding... http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_ad.htm says @ is a constituent character 04:53:40 I would've thought that would mean something like ,@foo would run @foo together into a single symbol 04:53:45 How does it work? 04:54:08 , isn't. 04:55:04 sure, but what does it look for - does it trigger special code to nip off just one character from the input stream after it? 04:55:41 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:55:41 it peeks to see if there's @.. if there is, it reads it and acts accordingly 04:55:48 rwallace: well, since the reader macro for #\, is executed before reading the following sexp, it takes precedence, and if can peek and read #\@ before it has a chance to be read as a consituent of the following. 04:55:55 ah! Fair enough, thanks 04:56:28 benny [~benny@i577A8596.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 04:56:53 adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 05:02:55 -!- kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 05:03:04 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:03:47 kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has joined #lisp 05:09:28 pkhuong: there? 05:14:02 -!- huangho [~vitor@201-35-78-190.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 05:14:15 -!- lianj [~lianj@injekt.net] has quit [Changing host] 05:14:15 lianj [~lianj@subtle/user/lianj] has joined #lisp 05:20:11 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 05:22:07 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:22:55 milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 05:31:47 stabby [~none@174.33.19.215] has joined #lisp 05:36:42 http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/variables.html says in some Lisp dialects - though not Common Lisp - Let is simply a macro that expands into a call to an anonymous function... 05:37:00 Does the standard say what's a macro and what's a special form? 05:37:22 I would've expected that to be implementation dependent on the grounds that application code shouldn't be able to tell the difference? 05:40:07 apparently let is a Special Operator 05:40:46 Right, but would an implementation that implemented it as a macro be thereby failing to conform to the standard? 05:40:55 If so, why? What difference does it make? 05:41:08 a special operator identifies a form as being a special form, and a special form is "a list, other than a macro form, which is a form with special syntax or special evaluation rules or both, possibly manipulating the evaluation environment or control flow or both." 05:41:08 -!- stabby [~none@174.33.19.215] has quit [] 05:41:51 so apparently it can't be a macro form (?) 05:42:24 So it would seem, thanks! Don't suppose you've any idea why the standard specifies that? 05:42:36 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_s.htm#special_form 05:43:24 -!- adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:43:53 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-86-213.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 05:47:58 adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 05:48:47 Landr: AFAIK, a special operation could be implemented as a macro. 05:49:00 IIRC, no two CL implementation has the same number of special operators. 05:49:32 (what's definite, is that a standard macro can be implemented as a special operator, as long as a macro definition is given too). 05:49:58 but the number of special operators is fixed, no? 05:50:19 oh wait, i see 05:51:18 adu_ [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 05:51:21 -!- adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:52:28 Landr: yes it is, but "3.1.2.1.2.2 Macro Forms" explicitely says that both so->macro and macro->so are allowed. 05:52:46 it's not the first inconsistency found in clhs. 05:53:13 ah! That is what I would have expected, cool, thanks 05:54:14 However, implementing LET as a macro is not trivial. In CL, It's not a mere simple mapping to lambda. 05:54:27 confusing language is confusing :( 05:54:37 oh, why not? 05:55:04 I don't remember the details. They have been mentionned in cll a few years ago. 05:55:12 (let ((&key 123)) ...) 05:55:39 Also, recently we discussed (let ((a 1) (a 2)) a). 05:55:53 -!- adu_ [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:55:56 Oh, right 05:56:13 There may also be some difference with declarations and blocks. 05:56:39 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-167-243.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:57:42 pjb: it returns 2 for me, is it undefined? 05:57:52 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-176-59.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:58:20 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 05:58:21 It could be 1 or signal an error or a warning. The error is probably prefered. 2 could be good. 05:58:21 rwallace: you may find this page interesting: http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/MetaCircular.html 06:01:23 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-vjrefhjrjpkryemm] has joined #lisp 06:01:44 ah yes, thanks! 06:03:20 madrik [~madrik@122.168.9.163] has joined #lisp 06:03:34 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 06:06:21 flyfish [~liuguangz@zz-12-6-a8.bta.net.cn] has joined #lisp 06:10:15 -!- shirleyt [~shirl@pool-96-234-197-72.bltmmd.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:11:15 Sluggo [~user@c-75-64-77-87.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:12:15 -!- Arelius [d0507552@gateway/web/freenode/ip.208.80.117.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:15:24 adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 06:19:41 -!- adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:22:54 -!- flyfish [~liuguangz@zz-12-6-a8.bta.net.cn] has left #lisp 06:23:44 jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-87.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:25:36 -!- gko [~gko@111.70.49.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:26:06 gko [~gko@111.70.49.44] has joined #lisp 06:26:49 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:27:19 flyfish [~liuguangz@zz-12-6-a8.bta.net.cn] has joined #lisp 06:27:53 adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 06:28:09 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 06:29:30 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA225EA.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:29:36 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-250-128-177.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:30:46 Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-10-165.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:32:46 sykopomp: Great work! Now the attachments seem to work well. 06:35:52 -!- galdor_ is now known as galdor 06:37:11 nostoi [~nostoi@14.Red-83-33-70.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 06:40:01 krfs [~jonata@189-16-43-233.cte.net.br] has joined #lisp 06:40:11 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 06:40:32 -!- krfs [~jonata@189-16-43-233.cte.net.br] has left #lisp 06:40:53 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:45:12 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.255.83.103] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 06:50:17 -!- compmstr [~compmstr@adsl-074-185-008-197.sip.clt.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:53:36 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 06:54:58 good morning 06:54:59 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-87.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:55:27 sykopomp: Otherwise the attachments on chillax work actually perfectly, but I noticed that if the file is not found there ends up a 0 byte file on the db. 06:55:32 Good morning! 06:55:47 -!- adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 06:56:06 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@14.Red-83-33-70.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 06:57:31 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has joined #lisp 06:58:23 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:59:47 sykopomp: Also the attachment-name parameter could maybe be inferred from the original file name, because it has a mime-type that does not directly map to the type of file the filename extension can provide additional cues on the type of file. 07:00:03 I mean when using a pathname designator 07:01:19 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:04:07 leers [~leers@c-68-40-9-146.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:04:27 And when the mime-type does not tell too much about what type the file really is. I mean, when the file is fetched with GET request from the CouchDB, the file name ends up being the attachment-name, which is really unhelpful if the mime-type gets lost, like when downloading the file 07:13:13 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:17:03 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has joined #lisp 07:17:03 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has quit [Changing host] 07:17:03 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 07:17:13 hmm 07:20:23 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-kwzhoxigpdfmduew] has joined #lisp 07:20:23 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-kwzhoxigpdfmduew] has quit [Changing host] 07:20:24 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 07:23:08 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 07:23:08 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 07:23:08 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:29:15 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-77-24.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:41 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:37:43 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 07:38:55 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:39:41 -!- easyE [gn8T0ko65K@panix2.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:40:34 daniel___ [~daniel@p5B326364.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:43:40 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5B32712E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:48:19 OK, so tell me what the main features of ASDF2 are that are not in ASDF. 07:48:29 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:48:42 good morning 07:48:45 hello mvilleneuve 07:48:55 mvilleneuve: How are you these days? 07:51:47 NihilistDandy [~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:51:56 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:53:24 spiaggia: pretty good (although busier than I expected, as often), how about yourself? 07:53:27 I've left AMOP at home I need to reset a metaclass slot, does anybody know what's called before compute-effective-slot-definition ? 07:54:15 spiaggia: ASDF2 includes an asdf-binary-locations -like mechanism that seems to work nicely 07:54:26 I think there are a bunch of bug fixes 07:54:52 mvilleneuve: Not too bad! 07:54:57 slyrus: Thanks! 07:55:16 ahh, found thanks to Pascal Costanza, I need reinitialize-instance 07:55:46 spiaggia: and did you read: http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#FAQ ? 07:55:57 -!- Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:56:23 sharps [~hazel@ip-118-90-82-239.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:59:08 leveldoc [~user@cpe-98-155-196-201.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:03:38 whee_ [~whee@cpe-69-207-157-162.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:03:58 -!- whee [~whee@cpe-69-207-157-162.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:12:03 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 08:12:52 -!- xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:16:14 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:18:51 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 08:20:18 frodef [~frode@shevek.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 08:20:29 hello frodef 08:20:59 hi! 08:21:19 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-pbfwwclrzplbkbcd] has joined #lisp 08:21:20 betbot [~betbot@109.188.165.211] has joined #lisp 08:21:42 All well in bordeaux? (?) 08:22:53 frodef: I don't know, I am in Ho Chi Minh City in Vietnam 08:23:11 frodef: But only for 4 more months. 08:23:25 frodef: What about Oslo (assuming you are still there)? :) 08:23:36 snowy.. 08:23:53 Oh, right, forgot about the snow... 08:24:02 -!- betbot [~betbot@109.188.165.211] has quit [Client Quit] 08:24:49 I remeber you were in vietnam, didn't think you were staying this long. What are you doing there? 08:25:13 frodef: Starting up a teaching program. 08:25:28 All well here, btw. Going a few days to italy next week for a snow-break. 08:25:59 (before the arrival of our third child :) 08:26:37 so still in breeding mode, basically. 08:26:47 Is the teching program successful? 08:26:55 frodef: I hope so! 08:28:07 frodef: which part of italy? 08:28:28 pisa 08:29:33 oh, that's quite a bit off 08:29:41 (i'm in Trento) 08:30:44 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:31:00 hello jdz, you where right. I was doning something I didn't need, a good sleep saned my mind :) 08:31:19 Krystof [~csr21@95.215.121.244] has joined #lisp 08:31:27 jdz: I'm hoping to do some motorcycle riding, but not quite that far I expect. 08:31:39 frodef: rented? 08:31:48 we are 4 Italians here, nice 08:31:58 khaliG [~khali@203.171.123.8.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:31:59 frodef: the weather was very good until yesterday 08:32:25 jdz: I'm visiting a friend who rents out bikes, so.. yes and no. 08:32:35 frodef: oh, that's cool. 08:32:43 Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has joined #lisp 08:32:47 frodef: i still have not brought my bike over here... 08:33:03 frodef: hope to do it more closer to the spring 08:33:23 frodef: anyway, have fun! 08:33:25 it's not snowy in Trento? 08:33:30 thanks :) 08:33:41 no, there was snow in december, but that's about it 08:33:49 snow is only on the mountains 08:34:14 right 08:34:16 -!- ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught me] 08:34:31 K-LineMeAssholes [46b3bb15@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.179.187.21] has joined #lisp 08:34:39 k-line me pleathe 08:34:56 36DAA07FI _2x2l _3b _8david` ``Erik abeaumont ace4016 acieroid` adeht Adrinael Aisling akkartik alexsuraci` am0c Amadiro amb007 andreer antifuchs AntiSpamMeta antoszka aoh apot apox_ araujo arbscht ASau Axioplase baggles Bahrain beach Beetny benny bfein billitch billstclair bobbysmith007 Borbus bozhidar BrianRice Bucciarati bzzbzz cataska ccl-logbot chiguire|m chrnybo` churib cibs cky clog cmatei cmbntr_ cmm cods cpt_nemo Craz 08:34:57 36DAA07FI _2x2l _3b _8david` ``Erik abeaumont ace4016 acieroid` adeht Adrinael Aisling akkartik alexsuraci` am0c Amadiro amb007 andreer antifuchs AntiSpamMeta antoszka aoh apot apox_ araujo arbscht ASau Axioplase baggles Bahrain beach Beetny benny bfein billitch billstclair bobbysmith007 Borbus bozhidar BrianRice Bucciarati bzzbzz cataska ccl-logbot chiguire|m chrnybo` churib cibs cky clog cmatei cmbntr_ cmm cods cpt_nemo Craz 08:34:57 36DAA07FI _2x2l _3b _8david` ``Erik abeaumont ace4016 acieroid` adeht Adrinael Aisling akkartik alexsuraci` am0c Amadiro amb007 andreer antifuchs AntiSpamMeta antoszka aoh apot apox_ araujo arbscht ASau Axioplase baggles Bahrain beach Beetny benny bfein billitch billstclair bobbysmith007 Borbus bozhidar BrianRice Bucciarati bzzbzz cataska ccl-logbot chiguire|m chrnybo` churib cibs cky clog cmatei cmbntr_ cmm cods cpt_nemo Craz 08:34:58 36DAA07FI _2x2l _3b _8david` ``Erik abeaumont ace4016 acieroid` adeht Adrinael Aisling akkartik alexsuraci` am0c Amadiro amb007 andreer antifuchs AntiSpamMeta antoszka aoh apot apox_ araujo arbscht ASau Axioplase baggles Bahrain beach Beetny benny bfein billitch billstclair bobbysmith007 Borbus bozhidar BrianRice Bucciarati bzzbzz cataska ccl-logbot chiguire|m chrnybo` churib cibs cky clog cmatei cmbntr_ cmm cods cpt_nemo Craz 08:34:58 36DAA07FI _2x2l _3b _8david` ``Erik abeaumont ace4016 acieroid` adeht Adrinael Aisling akkartik alexsuraci` am0c Amadiro amb007 andreer antifuchs AntiSpamMeta antoszka aoh apot apox_ araujo arbscht ASau Axioplase baggles Bahrain beach Beetny benny bfein billitch billstclair bobbysmith007 Borbus bozhidar BrianRice Bucciarati bzzbzz cataska ccl-logbot chiguire|m chrnybo` churib cibs cky clog cmatei cmbntr_ cmm cods cpt_nemo Craz 08:35:00 aerique [euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:35:13 -!- K-LineMeAssholes [46b3bb15@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.179.187.21] has left #lisp 08:35:24 K-LineMeAssholes [46b3bb15@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.179.187.21] has joined #lisp 08:36:54 kiuma: glad you worked it out eventually 08:37:49 36DAA07FI _2x2l _3b _8david` ``Erik abeaumont ace4016 acieroid` adeht Adrinael aerique Aisling akkartik alexsuraci` am0c Amadiro amb007 andreer antifuchs AntiSpamMeta antoszka aoh apot apox_ araujo arbscht ASau Axioplase baggles Bahrain beach Beetny benny bfein billitch billstclair bobbysmith007 Borbus bozhidar BrianRice Bucciarati bzzbzz cataska ccl-logbot chiguire|m chrnybo` churib cibs cky clog cmatei cmbntr_ cmm cods cpt_n 08:37:50 36DAA07FI _2x2l _3b _8david` ``Erik abeaumont ace4016 acieroid` adeht Adrinael aerique Aisling akkartik alexsuraci` am0c Amadiro amb007 andreer antifuchs AntiSpamMeta antoszka aoh apot apox_ araujo arbscht ASau Axioplase baggles Bahrain beach Beetny benny bfein billitch billstclair bobbysmith007 Borbus bozhidar BrianRice Bucciarati bzzbzz cataska ccl-logbot chiguire|m chrnybo` churib cibs cky clog cmatei cmbntr_ cmm cods cpt_n 08:37:51 36DAA07FI _2x2l _3b _8david` ``Erik abeaumont ace4016 acieroid` adeht Adrinael aerique Aisling akkartik alexsuraci` am0c Amadiro amb007 andreer antifuchs AntiSpamMeta antoszka aoh apot apox_ araujo arbscht ASau Axioplase baggles Bahrain beach Beetny benny bfein billitch billstclair bobbysmith007 Borbus bozhidar BrianRice Bucciarati bzzbzz cataska ccl-logbot chiguire|m chrnybo` churib cibs cky clog cmatei cmbntr_ cmm cods cpt_n 08:37:51 36DAA07FI _2x2l _3b _8david` ``Erik abeaumont ace4016 acieroid` adeht Adrinael aerique Aisling akkartik alexsuraci` am0c Amadiro amb007 andreer antifuchs AntiSpamMeta antoszka aoh apot apox_ araujo arbscht ASau Axioplase baggles Bahrain beach Beetny benny bfein billitch billstclair bobbysmith007 Borbus bozhidar BrianRice Bucciarati bzzbzz cataska ccl-logbot chiguire|m chrnybo` churib cibs cky clog cmatei cmbntr_ cmm cods cpt_n 08:37:51 36DAA07FI _2x2l _3b _8david` ``Erik abeaumont ace4016 acieroid` adeht Adrinael aerique Aisling akkartik alexsuraci` am0c Amadiro amb007 andreer antifuchs AntiSpamMeta antoszka aoh apot apox_ araujo arbscht ASau Axioplase baggles Bahrain beach Beetny benny bfein billitch billstclair bobbysmith007 Borbus bozhidar BrianRice Bucciarati bzzbzz cataska ccl-logbot chiguire|m chrnybo` churib cibs cky clog cmatei cmbntr_ cmm cods cpt_n 08:37:52 36DAA07FI _2x2l _3b _8david` ``Erik abeaumont ace4016 acieroid` adeht Adrinael aerique Aisling akkartik alexsuraci` am0c Amadiro amb007 andreer antifuchs AntiSpamMeta antoszka aoh apot apox_ araujo arbscht ASau Axioplase baggles Bahrain beach Beetny benny bfein billitch billstclair bobbysmith007 Borbus bozhidar BrianRice Bucciarati bzzbzz cataska ccl-logbot chiguire|m chrnybo` churib cibs cky clog cmatei cmbntr_ cmm cods cpt_n 08:37:52 36DAA07FI _2x2l _3b _8david` ``Erik abeaumont ace4016 acieroid` adeht Adrinael aerique Aisling akkartik alexsuraci` am0c Amadiro amb007 andreer antifuchs AntiSpamMeta antoszka aoh apot apox_ araujo arbscht ASau Axioplase baggles Bahrain beach Beetny benny bfein billitch billstclair bobbysmith007 Borbus bozhidar BrianRice Bucciarati bzzbzz cataska ccl-logbot chiguire|m chrnybo` churib cibs cky clog cmatei cmbntr_ cmm cods cpt_n 08:38:16 :/ 08:38:33 where'th my thucking k-line? 08:38:57 You should get a g-line. It might suit you better. Much softer syllable. 08:39:02 can someone give this guy what he wants and ban him already? 08:39:19 yes, or a g-line. makes me harder than hard. 08:39:28 sharps: never give trolls what they want 08:39:30 ignore him.. 08:39:31 yeah, i'm a necrophile. an auto-necro-phile in this case 08:39:37 fuck you jdz 08:40:03 masonium [~user@ip72-211-205-4.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:40:50 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:41:20 lemoinem [~swoog@216-73-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 08:42:16 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:43:02 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 08:43:27 -!- insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-26-24.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:43:56 -!- khaliG [~khali@203.171.123.8.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has left #lisp 08:44:02 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.147.92] has joined #lisp 08:44:22 -!- K-LineMeAssholes [46b3bb15@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.179.187.21] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:44:35 betbot [~betbot@109.188.165.211] has joined #lisp 08:44:43 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-skiqpvtxtopufyxd] has joined #lisp 08:44:50 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:46:01 the only problem with internet communication -- impossible to punch people in the face. 08:46:19 damn... i must've missed an exciting conversation 08:46:40 Nope. Just a boring troll 08:47:03 ahh, yeah not nearly as interesting 08:47:22 so is anyone doing any interesting projects? 08:47:32 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-18-125.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:51:04 everybody in their own 08:51:17 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 08:52:28 mcguitan83 [~user@2001:660:330f:a4:219:d1ff:fe7d:3bfe] has joined #lisp 08:53:46 b4|hraban [~b4|hraban@a83-163-234-66.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:55:15 -!- betbot [~betbot@109.188.165.211] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:55:35 yakov [~yakov@109.188.165.211] has joined #lisp 08:55:41 -!- yakov [~yakov@109.188.165.211] has quit [Client Quit] 08:56:00 yakov [~yakov@109.188.165.211] has joined #lisp 08:58:41 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-pbfwwclrzplbkbcd] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:59:14 tcr1 [~tcr@86.Red-83-33-177.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:00:30 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 09:00:40 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-svrxkhrsmlrnzznc] has joined #lisp 09:00:40 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-svrxkhrsmlrnzznc] has quit [Changing host] 09:00:40 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 09:02:07 ch077179 [~urs@adsl-89-217-155-122.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 09:04:35 can anybody tell me why allow-informal-parameters-p is always T please ? http://paste.lisp.org/display/119701 09:05:11 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@86.Red-83-33-177.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:06:34 is it right to write (:metaclass metacomponent :allow-informal-parameters-p nil) inside the defclass ? 09:07:58 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 09:09:10 leo2007 [~leo@120.33.27.181] has joined #lisp 09:12:06 -!- madrik [~madrik@122.168.9.163] has left #lisp 09:19:11 -!- dmytrish_ [~dmytrish@beting-proceeds.volia.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 09:19:16 dmytrish_ [~dmytrish@beting-proceeds.volia.net] has joined #lisp 09:23:10 -!- benny [~benny@i577A8596.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:23:55 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 09:24:21 kiuma: you need a second clause (defclass ... (:metaclass metacomponent) (:allow-informal-parameters-p nil)) 09:24:40 kiuma: macroexpand the defclass form and be illuminated 09:24:44 tfb_ [~tfb@94.197.1.34.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:24:57 -!- tfb_ is now known as tfb 09:25:57 rvncerr [~rvncerr@rvncerr.org] has joined #lisp 09:30:01 xan_ [~xan@nat/novell/x-zmgftkwshqvbtait] has joined #lisp 09:31:11 -!- NateYuan [~byuan@61.148.56.138] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:33:16 -!- NihilistDandy [~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:38:10 Good afternoon everyone! 09:38:26 Good morning! 09:39:18 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@87.29.195-77.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:40:04 good evening 09:42:28 good late morning and/or early afternoon 09:43:18 yakov__ [~yakov@109.188.176.220] has joined #lisp 09:45:43 -!- yakov [~yakov@109.188.165.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:48:50 -!- gko [~gko@111.70.49.44] has quit [] 09:49:26 -!- ch077179 [~urs@adsl-89-217-155-122.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 09:51:08 -!- Krystof [~csr21@95.215.121.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:51:22 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 09:53:30 -!- ilowhy [~ilowhy@183.83.53.180] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:53:42 -!- yakov__ [~yakov@109.188.176.220] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:53:45 amb007 [~a_bakic@87.29.195-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 09:54:48 yakov [~yakov@109.188.176.220] has joined #lisp 09:57:08 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756b35.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:57:18 ilowhy [~ilowhy@183.83.53.180] has joined #lisp 09:57:46 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 09:58:41 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:58:50 -!- am0c [~am0c@180.224.41.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:59:19 sharps1 [~hazel@ip-118-90-82-239.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:59:45 -!- Sluggo [~user@c-75-64-77-87.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:00:03 nikodemus, thanks it works. Another question: in which method do I have to delistify that slot value ? 10:00:17 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:00:25 -!- sharps [~hazel@ip-118-90-82-239.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:00:39 silenius [~silenus@p5DDB9A47.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:01:20 compute-effective-slot-definition ? 10:01:55 -!- rvncerr [~rvncerr@rvncerr.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:02:25 rvncerr [~rvncerr@rvncerr.org] has joined #lisp 10:08:25 astoon [~astoon@178.130.1.36] has joined #lisp 10:08:34 ramkrsna__ [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-zeiqcxxawbigltjm] has joined #lisp 10:10:13 tcr1 [~tcr@95.215.121.244] has joined #lisp 10:11:49 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:15:15 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@95.215.121.244] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:15:45 longshot [~longshot@216.131.74.24] has joined #lisp 10:18:50 What's the idiomatic way of testing whether a list is at least a certain length? Using the length function may be inefficient if the list is long; cd*r is efficient, but perhaps of questionable readability? 10:19:24 beach` [~user@116.118.9.118] has joined #lisp 10:19:55 rwallace: (length<= list n) 10:20:11 Thanks! 10:20:53 -!- beach [~user@116.118.7.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:21:43 <_8david`> (nthcdr (1- n) list) ;beware n==0 obviously 10:22:44 could be used in a definition of length<= indeed. 10:22:46 ... I'm not seeing length<= in either clhs or clisp... nthcdr does show up, so I'll use that. Thanks! 10:23:35 length<= is defined in various libraries. 10:23:47 Of course, since it's a one-liner, you can define it yourself in your own library. 10:24:11 right 10:25:16 (defun length<= (list n) (cond ((minusp n) nil) ((zerop n) t) ((nthcdr (1- n) list)))) 10:25:38 -!- beach` is now known as beach 10:33:55 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:38:30 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:38:41 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Client Quit] 10:39:34 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 10:42:58 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-24-4-147-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:43:46 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 10:44:06 -!- flyfish [~liuguangz@zz-12-6-a8.bta.net.cn] has left #lisp 10:44:28 pjb: surely (length<= -1) is either T or an error? 10:44:40 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@60-234-133-173.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:46:11 Depends. I defined (length<= list n) not (length<= n list). 10:46:21 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 10:46:31 So I didn't answer rwallace question. 10:46:45 (*^.^*) 10:46:47 ah, missed that 10:47:07 fbu_ [d5f6d0e2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.246.208.226] has joined #lisp 10:47:18 Now, perhaps it should be defined as a generic function to allow both meaning depending on the order of the arguments? 10:47:32 <_8david`> not quite; the cond branches don't match up 10:47:34 Sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 10:48:16 -!- fbu_ [d5f6d0e2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.246.208.226] has left #lisp 10:48:51 ... ok, i'm stumped 10:50:01 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:50:30 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 10:51:12 http://paste.lisp.org/display/119702 10:51:41 halp? :> 10:51:55 *sharps1* tries to run that code 10:53:18 Landr: why not have a constant list (temporary-list), and use REMOVE-IF-NOT instead of DELETE-IF-NOT? 10:54:05 not that it solves any problems 10:54:10 o.O how would i have a constant list for a variable location? 10:54:19 besides, yeah, the problem is it allows invalid locations to slip through 10:54:46 Landr: oh, right, never mind my blabbering 10:54:47 even though, if i try those locations through valid-location myself, it reports nil 10:54:58 delete-if-not returns a sequence, it doesn't guarantee that the original sequence is modified correctly 10:55:06 lisppaste is broken again. 10:55:12 df_aldur: huh? 10:55:13 is length<= in http://paste.lisp.org/display/119703 better? 10:55:21 (not tested) 10:55:28 i thought delete-if-not explicitly did change the input list, contrary to remove-if-not 10:55:28 df_aldur: ok, your wording confused me 10:55:34 df_aldur: but your point is right 10:55:41 Landr: it can, but it's not guranteed 10:55:46 ... 10:55:49 Ah, it's not good, because it doesn't work on vector. we would have to add methods for methods. 10:55:53 it just constructs a new list, possibly using the old one 10:55:55 then what is the point of delete-if-not if you can't be sure it actually worked? 10:56:01 you can 10:56:15 use the return value, not the side effects 10:56:34 i thought it changed the input'd list directly? 10:56:37 by ref and not by val 10:57:04 Landr: it does not have to do anything if it has to remove the first element, for instance 10:57:14 Landr: it will just return the list starting from the second element 10:57:49 o.O 10:58:01 whereas remove-if- 10:58:09 same for remove-if 10:58:17 dammit 10:58:31 -!- yakov [~yakov@109.188.176.220] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:58:31 Landr: it is allowed to modify the list structure, but it does not change your variable 10:58:49 yakov [~yakov@109.188.176.220] has joined #lisp 10:58:51 Landr: so you always use the return value, easy as that 10:59:01 check my annotation to that paste 10:59:03 well yes, but i still don't understand why 10:59:20 sharps1: why cl:let? 10:59:42 ahh, i see 10:59:49 no, wait 11:00:01 jdz: I was working in a package where I've bound the symbol let to something else 11:00:02 Landr: reading http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_rm.htm may help 11:00:05 i thought for a moment its output wasn't the input list 11:00:05 -!- leveldoc [~user@cpe-98-155-196-201.hawaii.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 11:00:11 o.O 11:00:13 but then what would be the difference between remove and delete 11:00:19 jdz: pretty much :P 11:00:47 Landr: delete is allowed to destroy the original sequence - ie, you can't rely on it being intact in future 11:00:51 gravicappa [~gravicapp@host150-114-static.39-79-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:00:55 ahh, that makes sense 11:01:04 it's an optimization 11:01:05 Landr: an implementation can define any destructive function as their non-destructive counterpart. 11:01:08 i thought remove worked on a copy and delete worked on the original 11:01:09 Landr: note the difference between the list, and the variable that is bound to a list 11:01:20 So the difference MAY be naught. 11:02:02 :] yes, setf'ing the temporary list to the output of delete-if-not gives the requested results 11:02:11 thanks for the clarification 11:02:37 Landr: you don't even really need the temporary-list variable 11:02:47 no? 11:02:52 just return the value from delete-if-not 11:03:04 doh, even better, yes 11:03:05 TeMPOraL [~user@188.146.68.0.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has joined #lisp 11:04:35 in fact, why am i still working with a 2D matrix instead of reducing it to a 1D first 11:04:45 Joreji [~thomas@79-125.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:06:11 <_8david`> pjb: IMO it isn't helpful to think of length<= or length>= in terms of <= and >= behaviour, and it would be confusing to coerce between types. 11:07:58 I don't understand. Have you watched my paste? 11:08:05 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 11:08:21 <_8david`> (length>= list n) says "is the length of this list >= n", and that's the order arguments should be in. The argument order (length>= n list) needs to be avoided entirely. 11:08:38 -!- yakov [~yakov@109.188.176.220] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:08:48 pjb: I think there are exceptions to the rule that any destructive function can be defined as a non-destructive one. 11:08:55 <_8david`> pjb: yes, I'm responding to the paste -- and I'm advocating against it :-) 11:08:55 yakov [~yakov@109.188.176.220] has joined #lisp 11:09:12 _8david`: this came because I misinterpreted the wanted semantic because of the order of parameter I had in mind. 11:09:19 some destructive functions, (and I forget which) have predictable side effects 11:09:35 nconc I think is one. 11:09:52 beach: indeed, eg. SORT on vectors is required to be destructive, and NCONC is also specified to exactly 11:09:59 _8david`: the generic function allows a clean and direct understanding. 11:10:11 It's like if <= had a :key argument. 11:10:53 fgump [~gump@cpat001.wlan.net.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:11:58 chaitanya [~chaitanya@115.111.191.42] has joined #lisp 11:12:47 I am curious to find out why SBCL doesn't support threads by default on OS X 11:13:16 OS X is always difficult, as a unix plateform. Little differences, uncorrected lowlevel bugs, different API, things like that 11:13:59 jesusito [~user@58.pool85-49-45.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 11:14:33 hmm.. when I was using a mac about three years ago, I had compiled sbcl with threads, and I can't recall facing any problems due to threading 11:15:38 RaceCondition [~erik@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe5ddc00-120.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 11:16:03 chaitanya: because there are problems there. i'd call them fine for personal use, fine for application use if experimentally your application works fine with them, but i would not recommend anyone use threaded SBCL for a server on OS X 11:16:54 nikodemus: has anyone listed down those problems? 11:17:27 so the things is, I managed to sneak in CL into our project 11:17:58 but it was a bit of a downer that my colleagues on OS X couldn't use the binary distribution of SBCL due to no threads 11:18:32 now they are compiling SBCL, and there's this perception that its difficult to get started with Lisp 11:18:48 despite having Quicklisp now 11:18:52 -!- astoon [~astoon@178.130.1.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:18:55 <_8david`> if you want pre-built binaries that "just work" everywhere, use Clozure CL. 11:19:57 _8david`: ah, I have never really used Clozure 11:20:15 so I recommended SBCL 11:21:08 <_8david`> It is somewhat unfortunate that SBCL doesn't have this sort of distribution and support model. But it is also very understandable, because the way development is done also differs between the projects. 11:23:18 <_8david`> For one thing, it's trivial to build your own SBCL. The binaries are primarily there for bootstrapping purposes. 11:24:21 Krystof [~csr21@95.215.121.244] has joined #lisp 11:24:23 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 11:24:23 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 11:24:23 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 11:24:29 <_8david`> Also, I think that even if someone managed to pool SBCL development resources towards a commercially supported SBCL with strong support for ready-to-use binaries and that of thing, I cannot imagine that it would cover all SBCL ports. 11:24:52 <_8david`> This is a project where random people turn up to help with partial *BSD ports. Hardly any real client buying support would care for those, so you'd still not have sb-thread for those. 11:27:54 if I were still working on OS X, I would have volunteered to fix SBCL's threading issues 11:28:40 -!- yakov [~yakov@109.188.176.220] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:29:07 yakov [~yakov@109.188.176.220] has joined #lisp 11:29:19 (fortunately) i moved to linux a couple of years back 11:29:23 astoon [~astoon@178.130.1.36] has joined #lisp 11:30:36 short summary of those: #1: on darwin we get really bad interaction between fork() and threads -- even worse then normal: if you've ever started a single thread in the image, even if you're not running any at the moment, forking becomes unreliable 11:30:57 #2: no timeouts on synchronization primitives 11:31:04 -!- astoon [~astoon@178.130.1.36] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:31:48 #3: synchronization primitives aren't interrupt safe (interrupt as in one from WITH-TIMEOUT or a SIGINT -- maybe something bad happens, maybe not) 11:32:13 http://pastebin.com/ajW7Jhv3 - I'm getting a 'syntax error after unless', can anyone see what's wrong? 11:32:26 #3 seems like a big problem... 11:32:33 #4: there are a few "strange failure models" we've never tracked down, probably related to the mach message stuff 11:32:51 none of these issues exist on linux 11:33:01 rwallace: you can put only one form after most loop keywords, included unless. 11:33:28 rwallace: (try to add a :do somewhere). 11:33:47 nikodemus: these seem like fairly difficult problems to fix 11:34:22 actually #3 should say "asynch unwind", not interrupt 11:34:42 interrupts are fine -- but them causing unwinds isn't, which is much less of a problem in practise, obviously 11:35:11 pjb, oh! So the syntax is actually unless condition do ..., not plain unless condition ... - okay, thanks! 11:36:00 Is there anything I can do on SBCL to make sb-thread:grab-mutex not complain about having it already? 11:36:05 well, it's unless condition 11:36:15 #1 we understand pretty well, but figuring exactly how to fix it is still an open question. call it a few man-days. could be less, but could be more 11:36:16 For sb-thread:release-mutex there's :if-not-owner ... 11:36:38 I'd need that for passing locks between threads 11:36:50 sharps1, ah, now that makes sense, since you might want to take some other special action instead of just a do. Right. 11:37:20 #2 we IIRC actually have partial patch for, but needs to be reviewed. half a day to two days 11:37:49 #3 i have a plan and a tentative patch. a day or two 11:38:11 #4... no idea, but we'll see if those issues remain after the known ones are fixed 11:38:37 so, now i only need to have a week or two of time to dedicate to OS X threads, and food to eat while doing that 11:39:22 yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 11:39:45 _8david`: i completely agree. i'd like to have linux, OS X, and windows decently supported though. bsd can fend for itself, unless someone specifically funds it :) 11:40:01 make that *bsd and them :) 11:40:06 *Xach* prepares metric ton of kaalikääryleet for shipping 11:40:22 yikes! biohazard! 11:40:41 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:41:40 -!- yakov [~yakov@109.188.176.220] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:42:08 yakov [~yakov@109.188.176.220] has joined #lisp 11:43:09 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:47:04 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 11:47:24 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has joined #lisp 11:47:26 pers [~user@217.sub-75-193-72.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 11:50:19 astoon [~astoon@178.130.1.36] has joined #lisp 11:50:50 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-178-117.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:51:20 orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has joined #lisp 11:57:24 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:01:40 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has quit [Quit: Eish] 12:01:55 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:06:03 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A80F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:10:19 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 12:11:39 -!- Joreji [~thomas@79-125.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:14:53 Joreji [~thomas@79-125.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:15:06 -!- yakov [~yakov@109.188.176.220] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:15:26 yakov [~yakov@109.188.176.220] has joined #lisp 12:17:20 -!- orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:17:39 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-137-186.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 12:17:56 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 12:18:04 -!- mducharme [~nothing@S0106002401f31855.wp.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:19:19 mducharme [~nothing@S0106002401f31855.wp.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 12:20:29 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@host150-114-static.39-79-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:21:04 -!- yakov [~yakov@109.188.176.220] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:21:21 mega1 [~user@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 12:21:59 basimple [~basimple@112.154.21.152] has joined #lisp 12:26:09 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:26:25 -!- basimple [~basimple@112.154.21.152] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:32:34 cpc26 [~cpc26@66.87.4.52] has joined #lisp 12:33:04 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has left #lisp 12:34:52 flyfish [~liuguangz@119.40.11.10] has joined #lisp 12:35:22 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@188.146.68.0.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:37:17 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:38:30 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 12:38:43 nullidentity [5de8f965@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.232.249.101] has joined #lisp 12:38:58 hiho 12:40:28 Xach: You should not make (permanent) bans on IP ranges. 12:40:38 yakov__ [~yakov@109.188.176.220] has joined #lisp 12:40:59 yeah, just nuke them from orbit 12:41:09 -!- Krystof [~csr21@95.215.121.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:41:24 -!- flyfish [~liuguangz@119.40.11.10] has left #lisp 12:41:25 anyhow, is there something like concatenate but for a list of strings? 12:41:46 flyfish [~liuguangz@119.40.11.10] has joined #lisp 12:42:13 Krystof [~csr21@95.215.121.244] has joined #lisp 12:42:32 format I guess :) 12:42:41 nullidentity: um (concatenate 'string s1 s2....) 12:42:52 clhs: concatenate 12:43:00 ? 12:43:21 -!- yakov__ [~yakov@109.188.176.220] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 12:43:30 (reduce (lambda (a b) (concatenate 'string a b)) list-of-strings :initial-value "") 12:43:43 yakov__ [~yakov@109.188.176.220] has joined #lisp 12:44:09 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 12:44:10 or (apply #'concatenate 'string list-of-strings) 12:44:15 or (apply 'concatenate 'string list-of-strings), if you are not afraid of bumping into call-arguments-limit 12:45:19 since I also need to insert /'s maybe format will do best... 12:45:59 -!- yakov__ [~yakov@109.188.176.220] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:46:22 but thanks for the inspiration 12:47:02 I should really get to know some essential functions like map/reduce better. 12:47:06 Why do you want to concatenate a lot of strings? 12:47:07 yakov__ [~yakov@109.188.176.220] has joined #lisp 12:47:48 Zhivago: not really a lot, just arbitrary amounts. 12:47:51 (with-output-to-string (s) (dolist (part (butlast list)) (write-string part s) (write-char #\/ s)) (write-string (car (last list)) s)) 12:48:02 Yes, I was about to suggest with-output-to-string. 12:48:15 mega1` [~user@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 12:48:19 It's often a good idea to write it as normal i/o and then catch it elsewhere 12:48:22 -!- mega1` [~user@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:48:25 -!- mega1 [~user@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has left #lisp 12:48:46 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-178-117.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 12:49:11 agree, the with-output-to-string version is neat 12:50:08 yakov [~yakov@109.188.176.220] has joined #lisp 12:51:39 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:51:54 sellout [~Adium@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 12:52:53 Agari [~Agari@180.Red-81-33-92.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:52:57 -!- yakov__ [~yakov@109.188.176.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:53:45 yakov__ [~yakov@109.188.176.220] has joined #lisp 12:54:34 peterhil: I'd rather not try to DWIM with attachment names. I'll look into the 0-byte issue -- it might just be the expected behavior when using the raw API, but I can definitely put in an early trap somewhere for usability. 12:54:40 -!- sellout [~Adium@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:54:54 sellout [~Adium@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 12:55:12 -!- yakov__ [~yakov@109.188.176.220] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:55:38 yakov__ [~yakov@109.188.176.220] has joined #lisp 12:57:14 -!- yakov [~yakov@109.188.176.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:58:16 yakov [~yakov@109.188.176.220] has joined #lisp 13:02:18 -!- yakov__ [~yakov@109.188.176.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:02:23 yakov__ [~yakov@109.188.176.220] has joined #lisp 13:04:38 jweiss [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:05:27 -!- Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:05:41 -!- sharps1 [~hazel@ip-118-90-82-239.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:05:52 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 13:06:06 -!- yakov [~yakov@109.188.176.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:06:16 -!- parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:07:47 -!- flyfish [~liuguangz@119.40.11.10] has left #lisp 13:07:58 -!- yakov__ [~yakov@109.188.176.220] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:08:22 flyfish [~liuguangz@119.40.11.10] has joined #lisp 13:08:28 yakov [~yakov@109.188.176.220] has joined #lisp 13:08:50 -!- flyfish [~liuguangz@119.40.11.10] has left #lisp 13:09:05 flyfish [~liuguangz@119.40.11.10] has joined #lisp 13:10:33 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-77-24.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:10:53 -!- flyfish [~liuguangz@119.40.11.10] has left #lisp 13:11:16 flyfish [~liuguangz@119.40.11.10] has joined #lisp 13:11:16 -!- yakov [~yakov@109.188.176.220] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:11:52 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:12:24 yakov [~yakov@109.188.176.220] has joined #lisp 13:12:30 nullidentity: A sound policy. Did you have an example in mind? 13:12:46 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 13:12:53 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:12:58 -!- flyfish [~liuguangz@119.40.11.10] has left #lisp 13:13:12 Xach: well I have to use a proxy currently. 13:13:15 flyfish [~liuguangz@119.40.11.10] has joined #lisp 13:14:21 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:15:07 adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 13:15:54 -!- Krystof [~csr21@95.215.121.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:16:11 Xach: just make bans last a day or two, slapping is alright but punching fails the purpose and is no more effective. 13:16:14 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:47 is there a sequence diagram for mop calls that are done in a defclass ? 13:17:10 I have left my loved AMOP at home 13:18:21 and I have problems setting metaclass slot values when I recompile a class with that metaclass (metaclass' sots are not updated) 13:18:36 -!- flyfish [~liuguangz@119.40.11.10] has left #lisp 13:18:49 flyfish [~liuguangz@119.40.11.10] has joined #lisp 13:19:18 I'm trying to use concatenate 'string on something that may be either a string or a symbol, and it's having none of it in the latter case. Is there a function for 'convert this to a string if it wasn't already, what ever it may currently be'? 13:19:58 format? :} 13:20:17 rwallace: STRING, partially. 13:20:27 rwallace: PRINC-TO-STRING is a brute-force way. There are other options. 13:20:56 urandom__ [~user@p548A59E7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:01 kiuma: http://alu.org/mop/index.html here's your beloved AMOP 13:21:22 kiuma: please make a sequence diagram and share 13:21:28 I couldn't help feeling there ought to be a lighter weight method than format - ah, string seems to do the job in this case - thanks! 13:22:15 -!- xan_ [~xan@nat/novell/x-zmgftkwshqvbtait] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:22:38 M-sprite [~M-sprite@122.236.255.103] has joined #lisp 13:23:41 -!- yakov [~yakov@109.188.176.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:24:06 dmytrish [~dmytrish@193.239.152.189] has joined #lisp 13:24:09 yakov [~yakov@109.188.176.220] has joined #lisp 13:25:06 Xach, should be not a bad idea 13:25:21 kiuma: Should it not? 13:26:23 I meant, that it could be a good idea 13:26:56 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:27:41 I think it is a great idea as long as someone else does the work. 13:28:17 -!- dym [~dym@217.20.175.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:29:43 I could do it, but then I'll need a reviewer, to ensure that I haven't written bulshits 13:32:08 -!- yakov [~yakov@109.188.176.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:33:00 tirinim. 13:33:24 yakov [~yakov@109.188.176.220] has joined #lisp 13:33:24 -!- Joreji [~thomas@79-125.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:33:32 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe5ddc00-120.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: RaceCondition] 13:34:18 RaceCondition [~erik@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe5ddc00-120.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 13:36:22 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe5ddc00-120.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 13:36:54 -!- b4|hraban [~b4|hraban@a83-163-234-66.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: b4|hraban] 13:38:24 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:39:14 yakov__ [~yakov@109.188.176.220] has joined #lisp 13:39:17 -!- yakov [~yakov@109.188.176.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:39:35 RaceCondition [~erik@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe5ddc00-120.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 13:41:57 yakov [~yakov@109.188.176.220] has joined #lisp 13:44:54 tronador_ [~guille@190.255.83.103] has joined #lisp 13:45:32 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.255.83.103] has quit [Client Quit] 13:45:47 -!- yakov__ [~yakov@109.188.176.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:46:35 udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-irzorytazranfvmx] has joined #lisp 13:46:55 -!- ilowhy [~ilowhy@183.83.53.180] has quit [Quit: bye guys!] 13:47:05 -!- yakov [~yakov@109.188.176.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:47:27 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-176-59.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:49:25 Hello #lisp! 13:51:10 Anybody here who's working in Europe & using cl at work? 13:51:52 udzinari: lots (but not me personally) 13:52:06 yes 13:52:38 udzinari: what's your real question? 13:53:53 udzinari: that said, it looks like there are more published lisp job offers in the USA than in the rest of the world. 13:53:55 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 13:55:25 jdz: I am considering a career change and trying to figure out perspectives.. 13:56:12 pjb: Yeah, at least lisbjobs gives that impression 13:56:13 udzinari: IMO, the best way to get a lisp job, is to make it yourself, by creating a startup or being free lance. 13:56:31 udzinari: well, today it came to my attention that the company i'm working in is looking for more lisp programmers 13:57:30 -!- Sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:59:05 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-76-69.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 13:59:06 maybe they just want to replace you, be careful! 13:59:33 jdz: Where are you located? if it ain't a secret :) 13:59:40 Trento, Italy 14:00:25 -!- snorble [~snorble@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:00:49 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 14:00:54 ch077179 [~urs@adsl-89-217-155-122.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 14:01:26 snorble [~snorble@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 14:01:29 the job would be about web application programming, so it's lisp and all the related stuff (html, css, javascript, etc) 14:04:58 Joreji [~thomas@72-053.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:05:26 rabite [~rabite@83.169.3.115] has joined #lisp 14:08:47 abend [~user@alpha.muted.org] has joined #lisp 14:08:48 jdz: That is really great to hear, especially given that I've done the latter alot (who hasn't those days).. but I was thinking I'd do some more cl homework for the moment.. I'm a bit shy atm, after several years of teaching/netadmin/sysadmin/service sector jobs I quite lost the confidence.. 14:09:03 jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.61.175] has joined #lisp 14:11:15 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-176-59.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:13:12 -!- astoon [~astoon@178.130.1.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:13:53 -!- dmytrish [~dmytrish@193.239.152.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:14:23 TeMPOraL [~user@rou24539a-eth0-0-2.eranet.pl] has joined #lisp 14:15:31 I thought to do a project or two of some usefulness, just to have something behind my back. Feel free to suggest btw, if there is something that's bothering people over here for a while and nobody has time/want's to work on it, I might as well give it a shot :) 14:16:01 fix all the bugs in sbcl 14:16:18 see http://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/ 14:17:06 if you don't fix _all_ of them, no candy for you 14:20:56 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 14:20:56 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 14:22:58 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-24-4-147-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:25:33 good morning. 14:25:37 morning 14:26:14 stassats, jdz: No need for a candy, becomming a better programmer in the process & getting a job will do :) 14:27:10 Thanks #lisp & have a nice day! 14:28:44 jdz: what is the timespan of the job? 14:28:54 *p_l|backup* has some hairy time-related limits at the moment 14:29:36 namely, "from july 2011 till end of september 2012" :/ 14:30:13 ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 14:32:34 p_l|backup: i don't think there are any limits to the timespan if you do the job well enough... 14:32:57 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756b35.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:33:21 jdz: yeah, but I have to finish my degree in 2012/13 ;-) 14:33:25 in the coming decade? 14:33:32 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.61.175] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:33:42 p_l|backup: what degree is that? 14:33:53 jdz: MSci Computing Science 14:34:30 (british MSci, not MSc, mind you. Lacks the Master's dissertation work for it) 14:34:37 anyway, you have summer holidays for 1 year and 3 months, or what? 14:35:17 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-76-69.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:35:23 jdz: we get "work placement" time, which basically means "find yourself a CS/IT job at least 10 month long, or you only get Bachelor's" 14:36:28 p_l|backup: and after that? you have to quit the job? 14:36:44 jdz: "at least" 14:37:14 jdz: I would love to do webdev in CL :) 14:37:20 (when (< time (months 10)) nil) 14:37:20 nullidentity: well, there was no "at least till end of september 2012" 14:37:23 jdz: depends on the job. I know of one place that has high probability of giving me a year out to finish the degree then return, but I'm covering all options :) 14:37:33 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:37:38 webdev is boring 14:37:47 indeed!!!! 14:37:53 well, it's more like app dev with web UI, but whatever 14:37:54 I am doing apprenticeship right now 14:37:59 witha java/ror firm 14:38:03 boooooooring 14:38:19 jdz: webappdev is even more cool 14:38:23 -!- pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:38:25 would be cool with a real programming language... 14:38:47 developing for smartphones: worst. shit. ever. 14:38:52 jdz: what kind of lispers are you looking for? 14:39:04 if it's boring, you can always make it more interesting by upping the quality bar 14:39:21 adu: common lispers 14:39:35 I dont think so dlowe... 14:39:37 dlowe: or putting some fantasy into your work, as well figuring just how to make it better :) 14:39:42 quite a bit of interested people it seems 14:39:50 nullidentity: smartphones are fun to dev for, I've made 2 Android apps and 1 iPhone app so far 14:40:00 let's see how do i tell you my email without getting my inbox overflow with spam 14:40:09 adu: what do they do? 14:40:15 technically speaking, my most boring job was when I had no work to do and simply sat in the office waiting for something to happen (junior sysadmin... without access to ticket system...) 14:40:16 jdz: point people to your website 14:40:20 jdz: privately: /msg recipient email@domain 14:40:26 jdz: (format nil "~36R" ...) 14:40:38 Xach: good idea 14:40:47 p_l|backup: probably also the best job ever ;D 14:40:50 davazp [~user@15.Red-83-57-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:41:12 nullidentity: yeah, it was really fun when there was something to do, but at some point the boring part started to creep up... 14:41:16 *Xach* is (format nil "~36R" 7358977731776056428290422) 14:41:25 when i'll write my spam-crawler in CL, i'll take this into account 14:41:40 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:42:03 nullidentity: true, Android is quite interesting, except that Java sux :P 14:42:25 p_l|backup: I wrote all my phone apps in C 14:42:46 hahaha 14:42:49 (though I finally found an IDE that doesn't exhibit extreme slowness in editing java code, so it's getting better) 14:42:50 that's not interesting, tell us about apps in Lisp 14:43:10 yeah, more lisp :) 14:43:21 jdz: btw, what kind of web apps is the company working on? 14:43:26 adu: please make a cross-smartphone common lisp app! 14:43:59 p_l|backup: conference (and similar event) management 14:44:03 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:44:05 nullidentity: do you mean a framework which bundles apps written in CL? or do you mean an app that lets you write CL? 14:44:11 jdz: link to company? 14:44:18 adu: I mean something like sbcl ;) 14:44:37 nullidentity: so a compiler 14:44:53 clozure cl works is supposed to work on android 14:45:06 *p_l|backup* was thinking of a GOAL-style language implemented on CL to generate code for DVM 14:45:17 stassats: and shares all issues of SL4A based apps 14:45:19 nullidentity: it would probably be way easier to find a compiler that already targets ARM and repurpose it to the Android build system 14:45:24 pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 14:45:39 p_l|backup: www.create-net.org (but the website sucks) 14:45:48 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.221.8.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:46:02 nullidentity: but I don't think that would work as well for iPhone 14:46:08 jdz: its sweet, proper oldschool 14:46:21 adu: I think so too 14:46:34 -!- tfb [~tfb@94.197.1.34.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Quit: gone] 14:47:06 because any iPhone apps written in it would automatically be rejected by Apple if they cought on to the fact that they weren't written in Objective-C 14:47:25 adu: btw, can you give links to your android apps? 14:47:26 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:31 well there is always phonegap... *cough* 14:47:39 -!- apot [~abg3x@unaffiliated/apot] has quit [Quit: apot] 14:47:53 xinming [~hyy@122.238.74.251] has joined #lisp 14:48:26 jdz: oh, and one more thing... how important is ability to speak italian? ^^; 14:48:41 http://www.appbrain.com/app/sawbix/org.drosoft.sawbix 14:48:50 I am interested in the apps too, since in my humble opinion, smartphone apps are either completely trivial or impossible ;) 14:48:56 Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:49:09 p_l|backup: the other one hasn't been uploaded to the market yet 14:49:13 antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 14:49:25 -!- Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:49:31 Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:49:32 una trattoria della mortare pronto 14:49:36 lol 14:50:42 my email, if you want more info about the lisp job (when it is available): (let ((*print-base* 36)) (format nil "~{~A~}" '(1519358402872 #\@ 771610946 #\- 30341 #\. 32092))) 14:51:07 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:52:30 -!- ramkrsna__ [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-zeiqcxxawbigltjm] has quit [Quit: Quit] 14:54:55 if you used ~:{, you wouldn't need to pass a literal list 14:55:16 is that a new way to trick people into evaluating code that they can't parse cognitively? Next time there'll be some trojan hidden ... 14:55:19 -!- pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:55:20 I mean ~@{ 14:56:04 dlowe: oh, that has not stuck to my memory 14:56:18 benny [~benny@i577A1E7A.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:56:25 dlowe: thanks 14:59:14 *Xach* ponders (format t "~@{~A~36R~}" "" #35r117S2 "@" #35r117S2 "." #35rDEN) 14:59:30 H4ns [~user@pD4B9EE18.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:59:39 jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-87.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:00:17 -!- pers [~user@217.sub-75-193-72.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:02:39 xach: you have neither y nor z in your email, so use ~34R for printing and #36r for specifying. Should be a few characters shorter. 15:02:59 tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has joined #lisp 15:04:40 milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw80ff9579.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 15:05:17 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 15:05:42 -!- chaitanya [~chaitanya@115.111.191.42] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:07:42 nurv101 [~nurv101@2001:690:2100:2:4687:fcff:fe91:9c05] has joined #lisp 15:07:57 orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has joined #lisp 15:08:31 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:45 -!- flyfish [~liuguangz@119.40.11.10] has left #lisp 15:08:58 -!- fgump [~gump@cpat001.wlan.net.ed.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:09:36 p_l|backup: did you check out sawbix? 15:09:46 milanj [~milanj_@109-92-124-195.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 15:10:09 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.214.177] has quit [Quit: Offline] 15:13:29 Guest55025 [186730cd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.103.48.205] has joined #lisp 15:13:59 adu: yeah 15:14:06 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 15:14:11 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:14:14 though I haven't yet ran it on my phone 15:14:44 ZabaQ1 [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:05 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-112-218.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 15:21:46 grrr 15:21:56 it's really time to do a major rebuild of my system 15:22:52 -!- silenius [~silenus@p5DDB9A47.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:23:41 -!- ch077179 [~urs@adsl-89-217-155-122.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:25:39 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.85] has joined #lisp 15:26:15 Amadiro_ [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp2364.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 15:27:11 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp2364.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:28:53 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:29:46 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:34:18 -!- orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:36:06 morning 15:36:51 ch077179 [~urs@adsl-89-217-213-36.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 15:37:14 Krystof [~csr21@95.215.121.244] has joined #lisp 15:37:31 -!- xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:38:15 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:39:02 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 15:39:16 Spion__ [~spion@77.29.250.12] has joined #lisp 15:42:37 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 15:42:44 -!- jesusito [~user@58.pool85-49-45.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:43:01 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:43:54 corruptmemory [~jim@96.246.167.18] has joined #lisp 15:50:07 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 15:53:52 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Client Quit] 15:54:58 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:54:59 -!- adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:55:43 binary_crayon [~binary_cr@pp002332dca816.usask.ca] has joined #lisp 15:56:13 -!- rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 16:00:03 slyrus: I was updating my personal copies of your git repositories last night and noticed that the ch-image repository on cyrusharmon.org looked more recent than the version on github. 16:00:09 -!- Amadiro_ [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp2364.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:00:41 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp2364.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 16:01:06 does compute-effective-slot-definition happens before compute-slots ? 16:01:15 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-vjrefhjrjpkryemm] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:01:34 it's called by compute-slots 16:01:42 reb``: thanks. hmm... I guess one of those repo's should die. 16:01:53 stassats: On the subject of ARM support .... 16:02:11 CCL does not run on the PogoPlug. 16:02:12 reb``: of course you should really switch to using opticl 16:02:17 -!- ZabaQ1 is now known as ZabaQ 16:02:33 hi, anyone mind sharing insights for getting a lisp programming job? companies in North America to watch for, etc 16:02:52 slyrus: thanks 16:03:14 stassats, thanks 16:03:15 binary_crayon: http://functionaljobs.com/ lists them. 16:03:31 reb``: it needs ARMv6t2 or later 16:03:35 -!- pmatos [~pmatos@host86-140-75-6.range86-140.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:03:59 H4ns: thanks 16:04:02 http://lispjobs.wordpress.com/ ? 16:04:06 stassats: The pogoplug is ARMv5 something or other. 16:04:13 stassats: that's what i really meant, right. 16:04:31 stassats: I will check the CCL binary on a Pandaboard at some point soon. 16:04:32 binary_crayon: functionaljobs.com is a pay site, lispjobs.wordpress.com is free 16:04:49 stassats: thanks 16:05:10 krfs [~jonata@189-16-43-233.cte.net.br] has joined #lisp 16:05:57 ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 16:07:49 -!- krfs [~jonata@189-16-43-233.cte.net.br] has left #lisp 16:08:21 pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 16:08:40 -!- Joreji [~thomas@72-053.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:10:23 drdo [~user@2001:690:2100:1d:226:8ff:fef7:3d9e] has joined #lisp 16:11:53 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:13:55 wow the first offer on lispjobs.wordpress.com is awesome, has to do with FPGA AND Common Lisp, sad it is in Paris and they would not hire me anyway 16:14:26 ericklc [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 16:14:48 Aside from those two obstacles, you're in! 16:15:23 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has quit [Disconnected by services] 16:15:29 -!- ericklc is now known as ikki 16:15:42 ericklc [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 16:16:06 i wonder if programming for money in lisp is still as much fun 16:16:41 urandom__: programming for money is always less fun than programming for fun. 16:16:44 whether it's fun depends on not on the language, IMHO, but on the job and work environment 16:17:17 urandom__: in my experience, lisp makes shitty jobs more bearable 16:17:20 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has quit [Client Quit] 16:17:20 Phillip [~Phillip@c-75-72-99-111.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:17:22 Raykon [~user@2001:690:2100:1d:3615:9eff:fe97:888b] has joined #lisp 16:17:25 -!- ericklc [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has quit [Client Quit] 16:17:34 Now *there's* a tagline. 16:17:36 ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 16:17:40 cpc261 [~cpc26@66.87.0.120] has joined #lisp 16:17:53 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.63.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:18:01 indeed it is 16:18:36 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 16:19:14 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.63.48] has joined #lisp 16:19:39 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:19:47 here in Germany there are only Java, C# and C++ jobs mainly 16:19:51 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-99-62-139-124.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:10 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@66.87.4.52] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:20:35 You can't throw a copy of CLtL2 without hitting a Lisp hacker in Hamburg! 16:21:47 Xach: that does not mean that there are a lot of lisp jobs in hamburg 16:22:53 -!- leers [~leers@c-68-40-9-146.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:23:02 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-97-25.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:23:02 -!- slyrus_ is now known as slyrus 16:23:16 you could always get a job tending bar at harry's harbor bazaar 16:23:35 yeah. driving a cab works fine as well for many lisp hackers! 16:24:05 -!- Krystof [~csr21@95.215.121.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:24:48 easyE [9Tiz9Hu7x6@panix2.panix.com] has joined #lisp 16:25:04 leers [~leers@c-68-40-9-146.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:25:51 but programming for money is always more money than programming for fun! 16:26:35 you need to find the right money-fun balance! 16:27:25 nah i dont care about money as long as i have enough to keep me alive 16:27:28 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:52 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-62-139-124.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:28:24 thoolihan [~Tim@209.221.3.130] has joined #lisp 16:29:12 Jubb [~ghost@129.21.84.236] has joined #lisp 16:29:26 cpc262 [~cpc26@66.87.0.227] has joined #lisp 16:29:32 -!- rien|away is now known as rien 16:29:50 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:29:52 -!- thoolihan [~Tim@209.221.3.130] has left #lisp 16:30:42 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:30:48 superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.148] has joined #lisp 16:31:43 -!- udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-irzorytazranfvmx] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:31:50 -!- cpc261 [~cpc26@66.87.0.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:32:30 -!- Jubb [~ghost@129.21.84.236] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:33:00 -!- drdo [~user@2001:690:2100:1d:226:8ff:fef7:3d9e] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:33:07 -!- Raykon [~user@2001:690:2100:1d:3615:9eff:fe97:888b] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:33:08 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:34:00 -!- cpc262 [~cpc26@66.87.0.227] has quit [Client Quit] 16:34:04 Jubb [~ghost@129.21.84.236] has joined #lisp 16:35:03 zomgbie [~jesus@84.119.95.19] has joined #lisp 16:36:07 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:36:39 answering myself to yesterday's question, it might come handy for someone else: in acl, (setf (ff:fslot-value ...) ) seems to memcpy using the foreign type's size in bytes as the length. 16:38:56 that is, where ... is an fobject; the setf of ff:fslot-value-typed may do the same for a given type and address 16:39:16 -!- ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:41:05 Krystof [~csr21@95.215.121.244] has joined #lisp 16:41:37 Bronsa [~brace@host14-180-dynamic.2-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:42:03 Is there anything I can do on SBCL to make sb-thread:grab-mutex not complain about having it already? 16:42:07 For sb-thread:release-mutex there's :if-not-owner ... 16:42:13 I'd need that for passing locks between threads. 16:42:14 tfb [~tfb@92.41.157.119.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:43:11 rme [~rme@pool-70-106-149-166.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:45 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.245.197] has joined #lisp 16:45:28 jikanter [~a@66.146.192.42] has joined #lisp 16:47:00 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host14-180-dynamic.2-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:47:43 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:49:57 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:50:09 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:38 fgump [~gump@188.74.82.177] has joined #lisp 16:51:01 is there a way to "clear" the lisp image of all loaded systems? 16:51:09 in SBCL 16:51:17 so I can clean reload them 16:51:25 freiksenet: no. SLIME however gives you a shortcut to restart inferior lisp 16:51:35 Bronsa [~brace@host14-180-dynamic.2-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:51:46 p_l|backup: ah, cool. I'll check the slime manual 16:51:57 thanks 16:53:08 ,restart-inferior-lisp in REPL :) 16:53:31 ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 16:54:48 wanderingelf [4817e03a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.23.224.58] has joined #lisp 16:54:58 -!- binary_crayon [~binary_cr@pp002332dca816.usask.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:55:20 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:56:11 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-62-139-124.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:22 -!- gnooth [~gnooth@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:58:03 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 16:58:43 -!- davazp [~user@15.Red-83-57-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:59:15 gnooth [~gnooth@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:26 -!- reb`` [~user@nat/google/x-khuyyehrbxtinlql] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:02:43 reb`` [~user@nat/google/x-dxclvopjzuqljqhy] has joined #lisp 17:06:17 oki thks 17:06:58 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:10:57 wanderingelf_ [4817e03a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.23.224.58] has joined #lisp 17:11:08 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:11:21 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-62-139-124.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:11:31 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:50 -!- wanderingelf [4817e03a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.23.224.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:12:31 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756b35.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:56 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 17:18:49 -!- mcguitan83 [~user@2001:660:330f:a4:219:d1ff:fe7d:3bfe] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:20:15 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:28 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 17:24:07 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.85] has quit [Quit: Offline] 17:26:56 splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 17:27:01 morning 17:27:17 This topic is increasingly outdated... 17:27:31 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:26 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 17:28:27 -!- M-sprite [~M-sprite@122.236.255.103] has quit [Quit: I need to code or sleep now .] 17:30:12 hah, guile 2.0 is out. my first reaction: "that still exists?" 17:30:58 andy wingo is pretty good at both the development work and the evangelizing 17:31:22 tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has joined #lisp 17:32:15 I was completely unaware 17:32:25 I think the last time I consciously used guile must have been around 2001 (: 17:32:39 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has quit [Client Quit] 17:33:17 http://wingolog.org/archives/2010/12/13/meta-data for instance 17:33:44 antifuchs: i talked to andy a little bit at ILC 2009 and he was persuasive about recent guile work being interesting. 17:34:41 tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has joined #lisp 17:35:12 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-skiqpvtxtopufyxd] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:35:45 -!- Jubb [~ghost@129.21.84.236] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:40:12 sc0ty [~user@a85-138-126-73.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 17:40:57 -!- sc0ty [~user@a85-138-126-73.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:41:41 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:46:15 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp2364.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:47:21 Xach: that's great. good to still have it (: 17:47:27 dl [~user@sshgw1.hpc.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 17:50:09 tcr1 [~tcr@86.Red-83-33-177.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:28 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[~tcr@86.Red-83-33-177.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:30 whats the best way to build ucw these days? 18:29:15 using this algorithm: 1) is it in quicklisp? 2) if yes: win. if no: 3) pester Xach (-; 18:29:50 (only half-serious. the "win" path is correct though) (: 18:30:18 jikanter: (ql:quickload "ucw") is what i would do. 18:30:25 oh yeah, looks like ucw is in quicklisp. you win! (: 18:32:29 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-176-59.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:33:41 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-132-130.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:34:43 davazp [~user@15.Red-83-57-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:46 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.85] has joined #lisp 18:36:31 sako [~sako@unaffiliated/sako] has joined #lisp 18:37:56 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 18:39:11 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@86.Red-83-33-177.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:39:43 carlocci [~nes@93.37.179.219] has joined #lisp 18:39:44 -!- |nix| [~user@66-194-253-20.static.twtelecom.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:39:52 -!- krfs [~jonata@189-16-43-233.cte.net.br] has left #lisp 18:39:53 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@74.209.54.217] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:40:20 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@74.209.54.217] has joined #lisp 18:42:44 ok so if i'm happily using allegro aserve should i dump them and use ucw instead and if so why? 18:42:59 Phillip: if you're happy, why change (: 18:43:21 (disclosure: I'm a franz employee (-:) 18:43:26 Phillip: you can look at the alternatives, that probably doesn't hurt. But if you're happy, I wouldn't simply jump into anything. 18:43:53 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:43:56 you should always be worried about thinking you're happy when you're really not. 18:43:58 agree, definitely check out the alternatives. I'm very fond of hunchentoot. 18:44:21 Xach: that's what M-x doctor-mode is for! 18:44:28 antifuchs: :P 18:44:35 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-112-218.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 18:44:54 Is it because of your mother that you are using aserve? 18:45:17 no its because that came up first in the googlies 18:45:56 the sourceforge outage broke a ton of stuff that depends on acl-compat and paserve 18:45:59 well, that doesn't seem like the best idea... if you've never looked at alternatives, check out the most prominent ones :) hunchentoot, ucw, perhaps tpd2 18:46:34 hunchentoot and ucw are installable through quicklisp, so I suggest you go for those first (: 18:47:03 if i start using something called hunchentoot i think i will need to start therapy 18:47:14 Phillip: why? 18:47:16 But "Lisp" is no problem? 18:47:21 that's too bad, it's a very good web server (: 18:47:22 Joreji [~thomas@79-125.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:47:42 can't say anything on the opera (might need to watch it someday though) 18:47:45 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@74.209.54.217] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 18:48:09 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@74.209.54.217] has joined #lisp 18:49:30 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:49:51 -!- wanderingelf [4817e03a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.23.224.58] has left #lisp 18:52:38 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@74.209.54.217] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 18:53:52 Agari [~Agari@180.Red-81-33-92.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:24 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 18:54:26 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:55:17 Joreji_ [~thomas@79-125.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:56:01 BeniaminQ [~quassel@host-195-88-115-42.hypernet.biz.pl] has joined #lisp 18:56:04 pebkc [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 18:56:52 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@74.209.54.217] has joined #lisp 18:57:51 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.85] has quit [Quit: Offline] 19:02:12 hello lispers! 19:03:22 I'm curious if anyone can tell me why asdf.lisp defines `length=n-p' with loop instead of just doing (eql (list-length X) N)? 19:03:56 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@79-125.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:03:58 Because list-length is O(length(X)). 19:04:21 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:04:23 mon_key: potentially less work to be done. 19:04:58 Xach: pjb: thanks. 19:05:19 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.85] has joined #lisp 19:09:52 pers [~user@114.sub-69-98-248.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 19:12:11 tvaal [~r@unaffiliated/tvaal] has joined #lisp 19:12:51 -!- tvaal is now known as tvaalen 19:12:52 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 19:13:46 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:14:04 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@84.119.95.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:17:50 tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has joined #lisp 19:18:25 sc0ty [~user@a85-138-126-73.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 19:26:19 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:26:23 -!- drdo [~user@lab9p6.rnl.ist.utl.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:31:56 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:32:59 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:29 mippymoe [~mathguru1@67-194-39-225.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 19:35:18 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:36:41 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has joined #lisp 19:36:41 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:36:41 wow! slime-repl _really_ doesn't like *print-circle* bound non-nil with circular lists... 19:36:49 er bound nil 19:37:10 rdd` [~rdd@c83-250-51-60.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:37:23 mon_key: nothing like that. 19:37:37 likes, even 19:37:55 as well. 19:38:32 pkhuong: are you saying nothing likes it when (null *print-circle*)? 19:38:56 mon_key: i don't think any repl will react nicely to printing circular data with *print-circle* nil. 19:39:10 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has joined #lisp 19:40:30 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-51-60.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:40:51 Xach: OK. Maybe, just esp. scary with slime-repl because of potential background stuff which may be occuring. e.g. evaluation a circular list in teh slime-repl buffer and watching its size increase into the megabyte(s) range faster than i can slime-interrupt :( 19:41:22 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:41:49 mon_key: ... probably less perilous than runaway Eclipse, Chrome or Firefox 19:43:17 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:44:07 xach: wow, just wow. and to think i have been in xcvb-land for the last 6 months. Awesome man. 19:44:13 -!- rdd` is now known as rdd 19:44:40 xach: i mean, thank you. 19:45:03 Just bridging the gap until xcvb-install. 19:45:14 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:57 I mean, you're welcome! 19:47:59 -!- silenius [~silenus@i59F706CA.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:48:35 I would've assumed that the slime-repl would default to wrapping its printers with a (*print-circle* t) binding by default, certainly there are other/similar slime/swank printers which do... 19:49:14 i don't find this desirable, because *print-circle* affects not only circular lists 19:49:29 -!- sc0ty [~user@a85-138-126-73.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:53:24 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.85] has quit [Quit: Offline] 19:53:51 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:54:44 stassats: So, is there not a way to leverage "~W" in those situations? 19:55:09 i don't understand you 19:55:26 -!- reb`` [~user@nat/google/x-dxclvopjzuqljqhy] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:55:41 stassats: doesn't "~W" check for circularity independent of *print-circle* 19:56:15 clhs ~w 19:57:41 mon_key: no. 19:58:53 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:01:43 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:03:03 I'm sure i'm glossing over quite a bit... But, if the slime-repl has at a high level (*print-pretty* t) but at a lower level passed its output through "~W" could code which bound (*print-pretty* nil) still then be printed without the #N# notation? 20:03:11 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.85] has joined #lisp 20:04:01 -!- Davidbrcz_ [david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:04:24 francogrex [~user@109.130.143.20] has joined #lisp 20:05:12 reb`` [~user@nat/google/x-tpvtgkhvcdgttrkf] has joined #lisp 20:05:43 the repl prints the return value(s) of things. if code dynamically binds *print-pretty*, the binding is undone when it exits that dynamic scope. 20:07:11 In some programming (like R for stats), in the args list of funcs one can add "keys" so that args can later on be used not necessarily in same order as defined in the function. is it a good style de define a function like that in cl?: http://paste.lisp.org/display/119726 20:07:42 *antifuchs* does strange things that rely on macros generating backquote forms. I feel dirty 20:07:43 panike [~nwp@cedric.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 20:07:53 (but also pretty awesome, because they seem to work (-:) 20:08:03 francogrex: keyword arguments are pretty handy. 20:08:38 Xach: the slime-repl isn't the real REPL though. its a simulacra a phantasm 20:08:39 ok so not unusual 20:08:53 mon_key: What is the real repl? 20:09:13 mon_key: I think any repl is the real repl. 20:09:13 francogrex: No, quite useful  although maybe not for addition ;) 20:09:29 The one the doesn't rely on swank/slime/emacs??? 20:09:56 sellout: was just a silly example I gave 20:10:04 mon_key: That one is not more real than the slime repl. 20:10:23 mon_key: It is more default, but not more legitmate in any special way. 20:10:52 You could save a core with a different toplevel function that just starts swank, for example. 20:11:03 Or a telnet/ssh server, etc. 20:11:30 -!- incandenza [~incandenz@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 20:11:51 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:12:00 Sure, and these might not rely on slime-repl.el 20:12:39 mon_key: Plato says all REPLs are simulacra of the true ideal REPL that exists only in our minds (and in Genera, so I hear). 20:13:29 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 20:13:49 sellout: this was the simulacra i had "in mind" :P 20:14:34 -!- panike [~nwp@cedric.cs.wisc.edu] has left #lisp 20:14:53 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-87.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:15:05 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:15:46 Is the dragon book still a good starting point for compiler related stuff? 20:16:00 -!- pebkc is now known as udzinari 20:16:12 I like PAIP for that! Also LiSP. 20:17:00 I find the tiger book (appel) pretty good, and less parsing-oriented. 20:17:01 udzinari: appel's books are probably a better intro 20:17:36 (modern compiler construction in ) 20:17:38 It's been a while since I read the dragon book, but as I recall it spent a great deal of time on parsing. 20:18:19 FWIW there is an entry in slime ChangeLog circa 2004-02-07 for swank.lisp wrt *print-circle* and avoidance of unbound recursion... 20:18:47 sorry, Modern Compiler Implementation in 20:19:17 after that, maybe muchnick's advanced compiler design and implemention 20:19:49 ML or nothing ;) The translations were seemingly left to grad students... it sure seemed plausible when I looked at the Java version. 20:20:11 jdz [~jdz@host115-105-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:20:31 i recently got "compiling with continuations", but i haven't started on it yet 20:20:57 i got the java one, and it's... not pretty :) 20:20:59 nikodemus: I have Muchnick lying around, but I figured I'd start with a simpler book 20:21:03 There's also Allen & Kennedy, for more advanced reading. 20:21:14 I think I'll try to start with Modern Compiler Implementation in C 20:21:27 just skip the parsing chapters :) 20:22:44 parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:53 -!- pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:25:05 nikodemus: thank you! oh, and since one of the masterminds of sbcl himself is helping me out with suggestions, might I also ask: any other pointers you'd give if understanding sbcl is my goal? apart from reading the source (which I do) :D 20:25:54 udzinari: . 20:27:06 -!- BeniaminQ [~quassel@host-195-88-115-42.hypernet.biz.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:27:24 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@67-194-39-225.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:28:55 2of the masterminds 20:30:27 udzinari: i think following sbcl-commits, and trying to read and understand the diffs is educational 20:30:39 just don't sweat it if you don't understand something 20:32:18 udzinari: you also need to remember that sbcl is a rather non-traditional compiler in some ways 20:32:29 -!- milkpost_ [~milkpost@dhcpw80ff9579.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:33:12 but pkhuong's link is good -- cmucl heritage is very much there in sbcl. a golden overview 20:33:14 milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw80ff9579.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 20:33:30 francogrex: ups my bad! 20:33:33 I see it as being really focused on compiling CL down to ~ C-level abstractions in a "pay as you go" manner. Compiling the C-ish IR down to machine code is fairly naive. 20:33:59 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:34:01 incandenza [~incandenz@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:55 indeed 20:35:47 is there a "C" library that can be genericly used to call lisp routines/compiled files (much like cffi is used the other way around); can such a thing exist be easily implementable? 20:36:23 Sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 20:37:31 pkhuong, nikodemus: thank you both again, and sorry for singular up there, francogrex was right of course :) 20:37:53 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-132-130.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:38:13 -!- leo2007 [~leo@120.33.27.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:39:14 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:42 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-132-130.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:42:54 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 20:47:54 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [] 20:48:28 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.85] has quit [Quit: Offline] 20:50:16 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.143.20] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:56:03 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483A80F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:58:26 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.47.84] has joined #lisp 20:58:27 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.41.157.119.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:01:02 froydnj [~froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has joined #lisp 21:01:43 mattrepl [~mattrepl@204.14.152.118] has joined #lisp 21:03:53 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-112-218.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:05:40 antifuchs: openmotif ??? 21:06:07 fe[nl]ix: huh? (-: 21:06:21 (well, yeah, I'm working with it, but what's the question) (: 21:07:06 anybody still uses that ? 21:07:25 well, yeah 21:07:29 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A80F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:07:38 classic clim relies on it for the X backend 21:08:47 NihilistDandy [~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:48 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-214-20.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 21:09:08 *Xach* wonders about "C Machine" enthusiasts collecting OSF/1 boxes and running motif apps 21:09:38 hahaha, I know a guy fitting that description (-: 21:10:04 nowadays, they go for more minimalism, like the "tabbed" X window nesting stuff 21:11:33 -!- museun [~what@c-98-252-140-73.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:12:00 enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-76-248-235-70.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:30 antifuchs: apparently, work is still going on for switching emacs to guile 21:12:41 2.0 has an elisp frontend 21:15:43 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 21:15:54 heh 21:16:01 I wouldn't expect anything else (: 21:17:25 tcr1 [~tcr@86.Red-83-33-177.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:51 Guile is in fact Scheme, a much simpler and cleaner dialect of Lisp than CommonLisp. 21:18:19 less capable out of the box :) 21:18:43 http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/GuileEmacs 21:18:53 Someone was thinking about use ecl with xemacs. I think it was mostly talk. 21:19:04 -!- z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:19:08 anything with xemacs has gotta be just talk at this point 21:19:30 -!- Joreji [~thomas@79-125.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:21:06 that thing is deader than common lisp. :) 21:22:17 rtoym uses cmucl and xemacs with ILISP. 21:22:23 (just kidding!) 21:22:26 burrrn 21:22:29 he uses slime (; 21:23:02 Are precise GCs out of fashion or what? 21:23:15 rme: or maybe boehm is in fashion. 21:23:29 rme: what makes you say that ? 21:24:23 I just read the guile release announcements, and they were saying how great it was that they were using the Boehm GC. 21:24:55 boehm gc is nice because it's basically drop-in. 21:25:02 and you can add precision incrementally 21:25:14 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@86.Red-83-33-177.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:25:21 (you can tell it the layout for certain object types if you like) 21:26:23 Hey! I still use gcl! (Well, only to test maxima once in a long while.) 21:31:17 -!- NihilistDandy [~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: class] 21:34:48 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-92-124-195.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has left #lisp 21:34:52 milanj [~milanj_@109-92-124-195.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 21:35:05 Joreji [~thomas@79-125.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:35:43 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:36:31 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:36:50 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 21:36:50 -!- nullidentity [5de8f965@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.232.249.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:39:25 Edward [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-30-161.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:40:50 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:43:34 -!- davazp [~user@15.Red-83-57-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:44:29 -!- CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:44:45 Good morning everyone! 21:45:03 morn! 21:45:30 davazp [~user@15.Red-83-57-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:42 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host14-180-dynamic.2-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:45:45 -!- jesusito [~user@58.pool85-49-45.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:53:52 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:54:01 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A59E7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:54:08 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-112-218.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 21:57:32 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:57:32 CrazyEddy [~creosol@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 22:01:53 seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:41 timack [~tim@142.177.12.117] has joined #lisp 22:06:14 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 22:07:29 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:58 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:09:26 -!- seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:09:35 seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:08 -!- ASau [~user@89-178-250-194.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:11:35 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 22:14:50 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-92-124-195.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:15:04 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756b35.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:15:31 -!- dl [~user@sshgw1.hpc.unm.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:15:35 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 22:16:52 seangrov` [~user@184-193-89-167.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 22:18:41 -!- seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:23:49 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:29 jso [~user@wsip-70-164-99-62.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:35 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:35:58 -!- silentbicycle [~scott@99-55-246-143.lightspeed.gdrpmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:37:50 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:39:10 -!- Guest55025 [186730cd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.103.48.205] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:39:42 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw80ff9579.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:41:53 drdo [~user@bl11-44-58.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 22:44:01 sds [186730cd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.103.48.205] has joined #lisp 22:44:27 -!- sds is now known as Guest2201 22:46:47 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:47:42 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:49:36 ziga_ [~ziga@BSN-176-191-201.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:18 I'm defining a condition that inherits from the two parent-types the most specific one being `cl:type-error'. Siganlling the condition works as expected except that after aborting from the error sbcl signals a second unbound condition slot error: 22:50:26 unbound condition slot: SB-KERNEL::EXPECTED-TYPE 22:50:26 [Condition of type SIMPLE-ERROR] 22:51:00 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:51:47 -!- jdz [~jdz@host115-105-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:51:49 -!- seangrov` [~user@184-193-89-167.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:52:54 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:53:11 This happens even when the condition has a slot EXPECTED-TYPE defined for it with an :initform nil. I would expect that this would overide a slot of the same name from the type-error parent 22:53:17 -!- Phillip [~Phillip@c-75-72-99-111.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:55:02 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.179.219] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 22:58:11 jesusito [~user@58.pool85-49-45.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 23:02:00 sc0ty [~user@a85-138-126-73.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 23:02:03 -!- jesusito [~user@58.pool85-49-45.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Client Quit] 23:03:32 -!- sc0ty [~user@a85-138-126-73.cpe.netcabo.pt] has left #lisp 23:03:51 sc0ty [~user@a85-138-126-73.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 23:04:12 -!- rien is now known as rien|away 23:05:35 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@96.246.167.18] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:06:58 rasterba_ [~rasterbar@99-113-184-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:33 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:08:27 an example is here http://paste.lisp.org/+2K4E4 23:09:32 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:09:38 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 23:10:17 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-112-218.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:12:12 -!- rasterba_ [~rasterbar@99-113-184-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:16:56 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:17:07 Jubb [~ghost@129.21.84.6] has joined #lisp 23:21:04 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:24:03 -!- ziga_ [~ziga@BSN-176-191-201.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:24:59 -!- Sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:25:29 -!- drdo [~user@bl11-44-58.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:27:57 tronador_ [~guille@190.255.83.103] has joined #lisp 23:28:09 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:28:53 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:29:31 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 23:30:08 mon_key: try asking at #sbcl 23:32:55 mon_key: What makes you think that name of the slot in type-error is 'expected-type'? 23:33:55 -!- fgump [~gump@188.74.82.177] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:34:01 mon_key: i.e., what makes you think that you really override that slot? 23:34:34 francogrex [~user@109.130.143.20] has joined #lisp 23:34:44 gonzojive_ [~red@171.66.90.17] has joined #lisp 23:34:49 -!- The_Fellow1 [~spider1@62.219.129.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:35:01 beach: the hyperspec? 23:35:11 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-106-149-166.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 23:35:11 pmd: Show me where! 23:35:30 pmd: And, no, this is the right place to ask. 23:35:44 beach: you're right, i was confusing with default-initargs 23:35:56 beach: was about to throw this card: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/e_tp_err.htm 23:36:15 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@171.66.90.17] has quit [Client Quit] 23:36:38 pmd: Except that it (fortunately) says nothing about any slot names. 23:36:52 leo2007 [~leo@120.33.27.60] has joined #lisp 23:36:55 There might not even *be* a slot for that. 23:37:16 The_Fellow1 [~spider1@62.219.129.123] has joined #lisp 23:38:47 what do you guys think about my earlier idea to have a generic C library that would connect and use cl functions from within C code (much like ecl does but this would be generic works on all implementations, kind of like cffi in reverse); Do you think it's useful? 23:39:12 pmurias [~pawel@aeni104.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 23:39:25 mon_key: Did you faint? 23:39:33 is (apply 'foo (list 1 2 3)) optimised to (foo 1 2 3) in sbcl? 23:40:20 francogrex: it seems so at first, at least for implementations that can generate (shared?) libraries. 23:40:30 beach: No! just figured out to use :default-initargs 23:40:51 mon_key: That is the right solution, but it is also important that you understand why yours does not work. 23:41:20 beach: Hang on let me paste my fix first. 23:41:22 -!- Edward [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-30-161.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 23:41:47 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-137-186.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:41:59 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:42:06 ok good 23:42:19 pmurias: You might want to compare the output of DISASSEMBLE for both cases. 23:42:37 francogrex: that would enable making projects with both lisp and c easier, not caring which is the "starter", i.e. which implements main() or which is actually the frontend, i guess 23:42:44 pmurias: They don't mean the same thing in general. 23:43:52 (progn (disassemble (lambda () (apply 'foo (list 1 2 3)))) (disassemble (lambda () (foo 1 2 3)))) 23:44:15 -!- pmurias [~pawel@aeni104.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:44:37 ok this was the solution i used: http://paste.lisp.org/+2KE4/1 23:44:39 francogrex: It would be hard to do because different CL implementations represent objects differently. You would have to figure out a way to represent them as viewed by C and then translate for each implementation. 23:44:59 beach: I still don't understand why the original didn't work. 23:45:25 mon_key: What makes you think that there is a slot named expected-type in the standard CL type-error class? 23:45:53 mon_key: i.e., what makes you think that you override it by defining your own slot named that? 23:46:01 Conditions may not even be represented as CLOS objects, I think. 23:46:23 beach: i noticed in this initial attempt that he wasn't using :initform but an initarg in a call to `error' 23:46:34 pmd: yes, I find it really nice also using ecl, I can write C shared libraries that have cl functions/anycl code in them. I can then use those shared libraries with other softare like VBA, SAS R etc... I was hoping to make it generic. But I note the diffivulty highlighted above by beach . 23:46:48 beach: I guess i don't but SBCL's type-error slot is EXPECTED-TYPE 23:49:58 beach: I thought I could override it because the spec says: "If the type being defined and some other type from which it inherits 23:49:59 have a slot by the same name, only one slot is allocated in the condition, but the supplied slot form overrides any slot form that might otherwise have been inherited from a PARENT-TYPE" 23:50:55 mon_key: i'm confused, were you redefining a slot or using an initarg to error? 23:51:04 mon_key: But the spec doesn't say that such a slot exists. 23:51:32 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.143.20] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:53:07 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.47.84] has quit [Quit: Offline] 23:53:27 beach: So, e.g. there needn't be a slot therefor I can't "portably" expect to override it? 23:53:53 -!- Jubb [~ghost@129.21.84.6] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:54:01 clhs condition 23:54:06 mon_key: "Furthermore, even in an implementation in which user-defined condition types would have slots, it is implementation-dependent whether any condition types defined in this document have such slots or, if they do, what their names might be; only the reader functions documented by this specification may be relied upon by portable code. " 23:54:07 mon_key: Correct. And again, what made you think that such a slot existed? If you don't know why, you might make this mistake again. 23:54:08 pmd: I was defining a condition which inherits from type-error and mon-error 23:55:12 mon_key: ok, i read you comments on the pasted code now, and i see you're not "listening" to what beach is saying 23:55:30 -!- sc0ty [~user@a85-138-126-73.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:55:35 mon_key: basically, the spec only tells you there's an :expected-type initarg, nothing else 23:55:37 beach: I guess my assumption that the condition system is based on CLOS was unfounded. 23:55:48 mon_key: So you haven't understood. 23:55:54 mon_key: I find that making one of my requirements that my project stop ungracefully on errors addresses such issues 23:56:15 the key is always in the design ;) 23:56:38 mon_key: to make it short, keep the initarg in the call to `error' and stop thinking about redefining slots; to make it clear, "there is no slot" :) 23:57:13 mon_key: what if type-error was defined this way (define-class type-error (...) ((lskdjflksjdflskdjf :initarg :expected-type :reader expected-type) ...))? 23:57:43 beach: i'm hosed. I get that now. Is there something else you expect I'm not understanding? 23:58:03 :reader type-error-expected-type, actually ;P 23:58:05 mon_key: Not right now. 23:58:19 Hexstream: Oh, right, thanks. 23:58:48 Hexstream: thanks BTW for the spec quote 23:59:03 mon_key: You're welcome! 23:59:19 mon_key: In case you don't realize it, I am trying to give you a deep understanding of what you are doing, so that you won't make similar mistakes in the future. 23:59:34 I thought it would be less dry than a long lecture on proper interpretation of the standard ;P