00:00:21 madnificent> yes, and im working on a neetbook so i can't see where the ) are closing :S 00:01:01 paren match highlighting? 00:02:47 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 00:03:06 -!- davazp [~user@15.Red-83-57-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:03:41 if you can't see it, that either means your functions are too big, or you need to buy glasses and use a smaller font 00:04:09 stassats`: or that the xkcd guy forgot a paren 00:04:35 -!- alama [~alama@a79-169-26-3.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: alama] 00:07:13 -!- NihilistDandy [~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:07:58 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2A4D6.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:08:51 hey 00:09:03 something I don't quite understand in the first chapter.. I'm carefully going through everything in the language 00:09:09 but something I do not follow: 00:09:10 http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/lather-rinse-repeat-a-tour-of-the-repl.html 00:09:25 CL-USER> (format t "hello, world") 00:09:33 why are there brackets around that? 00:09:40 it seems to do the same thing if I leave the brackets out 00:10:09 the parentheses indicate a list, but I'm not really using a list 00:10:21 so I'm wondering why they are there, when that example seems to work the same with or without them 00:10:34 mducharme: good question 00:10:55 mducharme: are you using lispworks? 00:11:00 yes 00:11:14 Xach: I don't see why you're asking that 00:11:23 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:11:24 <|3b|> lisp source is in the form of lists 00:11:25 madnificent: Because it's relevant. 00:11:31 I'm using lispworks 00:11:40 Xach: yes, but why do you suddenly ask that question? 00:11:42 mducharme: In the LispWorks repl, you may omit outer parentheses for one-line expressions. 00:11:47 <|3b|> working without the list is just your repl trying to be ncie to you 00:11:48 mducharme: It is not a standard feature. 00:11:54 ahh 00:11:56 gotcha 00:12:01 ok 00:12:02 mducharme: and it's evil! 00:12:15 I was wondering why it was working without them 00:12:17 madnificent: Do you understand now why I asked the question? 00:12:17 that explains it 00:12:33 Xach: yeah, I understand the question, but how did you figure out you had to ask that question? 00:13:07 madnificent: Because the behavior described by mducharme would be very unusual unless LispWorks was involved. 00:14:02 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:14:09 Xach: sorry, I seemingly skipped the relevant line in mducharme's question 00:14:25 -!- Jubb [~ghost@129.21.84.240] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:14:57 Lisp, in general, evaluates lists by treating the first element as the name of a function and the rest of the elements as expressions to be evaluated to yield the arguments to the function. 00:14:59 ahh 00:15:06 that explains some things 00:15:40 that's, like, the whole idea 00:16:28 stassats`: not just so when macro's are involved. At least not at each level of parens 00:16:37 s/parens/nesting/ 00:16:39 you get the idea 00:19:50 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:20:38 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.10.82.154] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:21:48 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-76-90-52-4.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:23:56 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 00:23:57 sorry 00:24:03 I must have read this too quickly the first time 00:24:31 mducharme: which university do you attend? 00:24:46 university of manitoba, in canada 00:25:37 my teacher is orjan sandred, who has done several plugins for PWGL 00:25:44 are you called manitobites? or manitobians? or perhaps manitobes? 00:25:52 heh 00:25:56 no 00:26:11 manitobans, if anything 00:26:14 but normally that is not used 00:26:19 we just call ourselves canadians 00:27:31 Sayra [~ikke@173-18-37-78.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 00:27:51 -!- ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:27:58 why do you ask? 00:28:08 ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has joined #lisp 00:30:01 pnq [~nick@ACA20B69.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 00:30:04 -!- rvncerr [~rvncerr@rvncerr.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:30:36 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:30:39 I was curious about your curriculum 00:30:45 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:30:50 he seems to be a professor of music O.o 00:30:56 super__ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 00:31:17 -!- super` [~super_@pool-173-65-48-189.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:31:58 I presume he is using computers to create music? 00:32:18 k9quaint yes 00:32:35 he teaches the course on it 00:32:41 but I have not taken the course yet 00:32:48 he is trying to push me through it before 00:32:55 -!- FirewalkR [~firewalkr@a85-138-104-212.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:32:58 because unlike most composition majors I previously studied computer science in university 00:33:19 so he's trying to push me through it before most 00:33:26 because of my programming expertise 00:33:29 I was just curious about your application of lisp is all 00:33:39 I am new to lisp 00:34:09 I have programmed in i8086 assembly, C, C++, java, python, php, perl, basic, pascal 00:35:09 we are using lisp because pwgl is written in lisp 00:35:27 I would feel much more at home with C or C++ honestly 00:36:09 but PWGL gives me all these great libraries for creating compositions 00:37:10 and it is based on lisp 00:38:19 don't worry, in a couple of years of you'll feel comfortable with Lisp too 00:38:33 for my day job, while I am going to university, I am developing in python and perl on a regular basis 00:38:48 oudeis [~oudeis@adsl-76-243-71-190.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:38:56 I just wish I could get to be really good at just one language instead of having to jump back and forth for everything 00:39:20 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@86.Red-83-33-177.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:39:28 Lisp is a great language to be good at 00:39:32 I have always been language agnostic 00:39:48 stassats`: I have to ask why 00:40:02 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 00:40:08 because it's cool and stuff 00:40:09 I mean I hadn't even heard of it before I started working in this PWGL software 00:40:39 thats because it takes so long for stuff to reach canada :P 00:40:41 You went through a computer science degree without hearing about lisp? 00:40:50 Hmm. wgl here. 00:40:51 drdo: entirely possible 00:40:56 That's surprising 00:41:10 drdo we were really focused on C++ and java 00:41:16 everything else was not mentioned 00:41:17 I would counter that it isn't really a computer science degree :) 00:41:25 they just said they were some "other languages out there" 00:41:27 and left it at that 00:41:32 mducharme: here's a really great overview some of what makes lisp special... http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2307562/how-does-lisp-let-you-redefine-the-language-itself/2311434#2311434 00:41:43 and metaprogramming 00:41:53 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA20B69.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:41:53 there are any web site when they create video games in Lisp or something like that? 00:41:56 *madnificent* has to write a paper about metaprogramming (<3 lisp) 00:42:09 simo163: check out #lispgames 00:42:10 madnificent, did you write the paper in lisp? 00:42:16 simo163: http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~psilord/lisp-public/option-9.html 00:42:20 I've actually been quite fond of python lately 00:42:20 k9quaint: no, not in, but about 00:42:40 the less you mess with metaprogramming and similar features, the better 00:42:41 madnificent: you missed a great opportunity for irony ;) 00:42:47 but, it's there when you need it 00:42:58 k9quaint: and it isn't all that great btw (not that lisp isn't good, but I don't like my paper) 00:43:02 k9quaint: LoL 00:43:07 thnaksss! 00:43:09 :) 00:43:15 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 00:44:06 realy cool that webpage 00:44:26 mducharme: and a very good article about what makes lisp's macros special.. http://brandonbyars.com/2008/02/12/understanding-syntactic-macros/ 00:44:52 heh it's ok 00:45:02 I do not need an article convincing me of how great lisp is 00:45:07 mainly because, I need to use it 00:45:13 the libraries I use are coded to it 00:45:26 well, these article don't just talk about how great lisp is 00:45:51 because everyone knows it's great 00:45:52 they should, hopefully, help you to get a high level overview of what's possible in lisp.. and how you could use it to its full advantage 00:46:10 rather than trying to, for instance, just code C in lisp 00:46:34 well every language makes certain functions easier than others 00:46:46 what? 00:46:55 mducharme: how does C make writing to files easier?! IT DOESN'T 00:47:06 certain, not all 00:47:06 sorry, I might be a tad frustrated 00:47:29 I'm not saying that 00:47:35 it certainly does not 00:48:05 but for instance, php is geared towards spitting out html, and it is really good at that.. every language has its forte 00:48:32 that's not quite true 00:49:01 why is it that people always assume that a language must have such clear downsides that it shouldn't be considered. And when they don't hear about the great downsides, they won't look at the language because they assume that it must be something really complicated. Or someone figures out some bogus argument that just goes over their heads like "Yes, but macro's aren't practical" and they believe it and don't start learning the 00:49:01 language. 00:49:05 wwwwhhhhhyyyyyy?! 00:49:07 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip68-231-47-70.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:49:29 mducharme: seriously, php <<<< lisp when it comes to spitting out html 00:50:01 ok then.. why is lisp not used in all these cases? 00:50:13 it's not? 00:50:14 the only thing good about php is http://php.net/manual/en/index.php 00:50:34 Popularity arguments are the best 00:50:36 I mean it's almost always php or asp or jsp... 00:50:45 mducharme: when lisp is not used where it should be used, it is mostly because people insist on asking that single question. 00:50:47 drdo: they are certainly popular 00:50:57 I'm not trying to say what's most popular is what's best 00:51:05 stassats`, drdo: LMAO btw 00:51:06 mducharme: Yes you are? 00:51:07 mducharme: why is any technology widely used for any given purpose? it it always because of technical superiority? 00:51:17 or could other factors be involved? 00:51:18 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 00:51:29 often languages gain popularity because of good marketing, people getting excited about them, etc 00:51:33 pattern: Yes, of course, that is unquestionable logic 00:51:37 politics, taste, fashion, going with the herd.. etc... 00:51:39 not really because of how good they are compared to others 00:51:47 mducharme: it's a normal question to ask, but it is _not_ the correct one to ask, especially since the gazilion users before you asked the exact same question (which you obviously can't know) 00:52:05 mducharme: exactly 00:52:07 It's not a normal question to ask 00:52:19 would an answer "because people are stupid" satisfy you? 00:52:21 drdo: it is a socially accepted question to ask :) 00:52:31 It's quite hard to make it to 20+ years of age without knowning that people are retarded 00:52:36 stassats`: I learned from personal experience that you shouldn't say that :) 00:53:34 drdo: actually, borderline intellectual functioning is less extreme, but sounds a lot worse :) 00:54:00 (that's an IQ < 85 IIRC) 00:54:10 IQ is retarded 00:54:56 Bogus test supposed to be measuring something we can't even remotely define 00:55:10 mducharme: either case, there are cases where lisp isn't the perfect language. However, they don't come round nearly as much as you'd expect :) 00:55:40 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:55:58 now that we are into religious arguments, can I ask how suicide bombing can be recursive? 00:56:02 mducharme: and I'm frustrated that I have to bare the consequences of that 00:56:45 k9quaint: sure! You start out in palestina, where everyone has a bomb. One bomb sets off->it sets off more bombs->it sets off more bombs etc etc. Once palestina is gone, the recursion ends 00:57:19 that would destroy your call stack too 00:57:28 nice one 00:57:47 ... it's a parallel tail call? 00:58:08 I knew a hot girl called Palestina 00:58:15 madnificent: I understand... 00:58:20 should we get back to Lisp? 00:58:25 But, in English, the country is Palestine. :-) 00:59:03 stassats`: By popular demand, no 00:59:37 adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:39 incf stassats` 00:59:48 i understand, it's hard to talk about an old slow language which nobody uses all day long 01:00:02 I like lisp because so few people use it 01:00:20 stassats`: we don't need to use it all day long :) we can have shorter work days due to our superior efficiency ^_^ 01:00:35 every language I learn has certain advantages and disadvantages compared to others 01:00:47 madnificent: i'm paid per hours 01:00:51 they all boil down to ones and zeros 01:01:00 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has left #lisp 01:01:01 and sometimes twos, but we shun them 01:01:15 some languages have more ones and zeroes than others 01:01:24 uh oh, Xach is displeased :( 01:01:44 some languages have zeroes than ones 01:01:48 *more 01:01:58 lisp strikes me as being very very powerful for any sort of database system 01:02:20 but that's just my impression after using it for a couple weeks 01:02:26 lisp strikes me about the head and shoulders, then I pass out 01:02:38 as per stassats`'s request >>>>> #lispcafe 01:02:42 It's because it has more zeroes than ones, and zeroes are free space, because zero is nothing 01:02:47 so it saves disk space 01:03:24 unless you forget to empty the bit bucket 01:03:31 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@188.147.129.168.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:04:00 pattern: that's where this gargabe collection thing comes in 01:05:59 -!- brodo [~brodo@p5B02249B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: brodo] 01:06:20 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:11:24 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483C0D8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:12:09 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 01:12:34 -!- keyvan [~keyvan@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:13:18 keyvan [~keyvan@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:13:43 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has left #lisp 01:13:57 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 01:14:29 should I add generic setfable places to the description of metaprogramming? 01:14:50 -!- simo163 [~quassel@85.136.15.136.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:17:30 Jubb [~ghost@129.21.86.28] has joined #lisp 01:17:33 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:17:41 -!- lurker-x [~androirc@c-75-72-99-111.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bye...] 01:18:47 gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.202.111] has joined #lisp 01:20:00 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:24:31 huangho [~vitor@201-35-76-28.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 01:25:10 I can't get CGI scripts to run with SBCL, only with CLISP. I modified .sbclrc so that it runs scripts in the CLI, but I still get Internal Server Error in the browser. Any tips? 01:26:35 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:58 <|3b|> "don't use CGI with lisp" is a popular tip 01:28:29 OK? Will I regret it? 01:28:45 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe5ddc00-120.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: RaceCondition] 01:29:03 gaidal: CGI is slow when coupled with lisp. You're probably better off with hunchentoot 01:29:34 <|3b|> usual setup is web app in a running lisp instance, possibly with a reverse proxy 01:30:40 <|3b|> s/web app/web server/ 01:31:31 Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:08 Yeah I've read about those. I think I just want to keep learning more Lisp before I invest time into setting those up. 01:33:53 gaidal: setting up hunchentoot itself is rather simple (there are other webservers out there too) 01:33:58 with quicklisp that's going to take a couple of minutes 01:34:23 Alright, if the general opinion is that it's not a good solution, I can just live with CLISP until I move on to that, then. 01:34:24 <|3b|> sbcl isn't really suited for 'start a new instance and load some code for every request' style usage, so if you don't want to set up hunchentoot, might as well stay with clisp if it is working 01:35:50 Yeah it's just kind of annoying when slime complains about package SYSTEM not found all the time because I can't make it use CLISP. :P 01:35:51 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:38:26 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:38:47 Does anyone know how to get slimv to work by the way? 01:39:44 I didn't noticed any difference after following the instructions, and can't tell if it's connected or not. 01:39:50 pnq [~nick@ACA2EA5D.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 01:42:20 -!- ASau [~user@95-26-230-11.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:43:13 |3b|: unless one dips into fork() 01:43:32 ASau [~user@95-26-230-11.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 01:45:35 gaidal: what do you mean by "can't make slime use CLISP" ? 01:46:56 cmatei: set-inferior-lisp-program in .emacs still starts sbcl. I'm probably totally ignorant about how emacs/slime works. 01:47:06 I mean if I set it to clisp 01:47:36 like this ? (setq inferior-lisp-program "clisp") ? 01:49:46 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:51:06 Yes 01:51:13 -!- sabalabas [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:51:32 I just read something about giving it "clisp -K full" instead... 01:52:12 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:52:44 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 01:53:16 "have you tried turning it off and on again ?", and I mean emacs ? 01:54:48 it so happens i have clisp installed and i tried using slime with it and it seems to work fine 01:54:50 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:56:57 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@adsl-76-243-71-190.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:57:42 Yes I did 01:58:02 I should still start slime with M-x slime, yes? 01:58:14 yes 01:59:42 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.214.174] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 02:01:57 oudeis [~oudeis@adsl-76-243-71-190.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:51 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h134n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 02:03:15 -!- gonzojive__ [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive__] 02:07:24 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@adsl-76-243-71-190.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:08:17 Well, it's still starting sbcl. 02:08:52 hmm 02:08:58 Whatever, I can hopefully figure out how to use vim instead and graduate from CGI soon. 02:09:10 (two unrelated things) 02:09:17 http://www.unlambda.com/download/genera/snap4.tar.gz <-- does this need anything else not in the tarball to run properly? 02:09:38 -!- vilsonvieira [~vilson@189.26.150.87.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:09:53 *mathrick* pokes p_l|home in case he's still here 02:12:04 -!- xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:15:37 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@91-76-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:15:38 mathrick: you need opengenera itself 02:16:00 stassats`: okay, I have a tarball, how do I expose it though? 02:16:04 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.79.181] has joined #lisp 02:16:27 at least I think I have a tarball, it says OG 2.0 for tru64 02:18:47 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 02:19:17 mathrick: ? 02:19:24 copy the sys.sct from the og tarball to the snap4 dir 02:19:37 p_l|home: trying to run VLM 02:19:40 mathrick: also,secure a sufficiently old X.Org 02:19:45 6.8 sounds good 02:19:46 -!- srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has left #lisp 02:19:47 ah, that thing 02:20:08 cmatei: only that? 02:20:18 you need to place sys.sct and rel-8-5 in /var/lib/symbolics 02:20:19 do I need to configure it somehow in .VLM? 02:20:29 seems so. i don't remember what i did here :-) 02:20:36 uhh 02:20:46 that's all pretty complex and magic 02:21:18 mathrick: then configure NFS server (protocol v2, iirc) like this [/etc/exports]: / genera(rw,no_root_squash,no_subtree_check,insecure,async) # "genera" being the name associated with VLM's IP 02:21:50 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 02:21:56 mathrick: if you were running it on OSF/1, you'd just issue an install command and changed exports :> 02:22:51 huangho_ [~vitor@201-15-185-74.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 02:23:06 vilsonvieira [~vilson@189.26.153.117.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 02:24:33 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:25:05 -!- huangho [~vitor@201-35-76-28.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:25:09 p_l|home: okay, I think I'll need to do it tomorrow 02:25:13 too sleepy now 02:25:32 heh 02:25:42 is there any more talk about releasing this stuff ? 02:25:57 mathrick: if you manage to setup a nice VM to run it, send me a copy of the system image :3 02:26:08 cmatei: VLM? 02:26:16 p_l|home: heh, I was hoping somebody would send one to me :) 02:26:18 yes, and opern genera 02:27:24 last i've seen, there was some discussion in 2006 (?) about it going to become open source or something 02:27:41 that'd be very nice 02:27:56 symbolics' copyrights are so tied up that it would take a miracle for this to happen 02:28:15 last I heard, some clown (actual performance artist) held them 02:29:33 antifuchs: that is so poetic, it brings tears to my eyes 02:30:33 sad, really 02:30:41 I'd like to see it happen 02:33:15 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: night] 02:33:36 man, I remember when I thought the Alpha processor was cool 02:35:17 cmatei: nope, but there is some work to port it to x86-64 (officially) except they had chosen OSX... 02:35:27 k9quaint: it *is* cool 02:35:54 I was unaware they still manufactured them 02:36:01 i think genera is more of an issue than the emulator 02:36:28 cmatei: the emulator is basically an implementation of the microcode plus some basic I/O 02:37:04 -!- timack [~tim@hlfx59-2a-221.ns.sympatico.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:38:05 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.84.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:40:07 -!- huangho_ is now known as huangho 02:40:35 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 02:41:14 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Client Quit] 02:41:35 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 02:42:42 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Client Quit] 02:43:01 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 02:43:17 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:46:43 Phoodus [~foo@ip68-231-47-70.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:46:55 -!- Blkt [~Blkt@dynamic-adsl-94-34-26-111.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: ERROR: do not makunbound t please!] 02:49:01 -!- coldnew [~coldnew@ymu041-045.ym.edu.tw] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:52:32 oudeis [~oudeis@adsl-76-243-71-190.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:27 danieljones [~danieljon@qld13-adsl-181.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 02:53:43 symbole [~alan@ool-182ff693.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:52 -!- symbole [~alan@ool-182ff693.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 02:55:07 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:58:52 symbole [~alan@ool-182ff693.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:00:02 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-178-117.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 03:00:53 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:01:17 -!- Jubb [~ghost@129.21.86.28] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:01:38 Vicfred [~Vicfred@201.102.93.119] has joined #lisp 03:02:12 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@adsl-76-243-71-190.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 03:08:41 deepfire: (a) After more than 15 years, the racket object system is hardly a "du jour" one; 03:08:53 (b) if you look at it beyond the first two minutes of "oh, another `private' declaration", you'll see why "seems to buy into the usual C++ public/private/method-tied-to-class crap" is very wrong; 03:09:12 (c) it does not ignore ignore CLOS heritage (first, it's a *CL* one, but in addition to that, it comes from people who are well aware of CLOS). 03:09:42 coldnew [~coldnew@ymu041-045.ym.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 03:10:31 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-128-63.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:12:18 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:12:43 timchen119 [tim@163.16.211.21] has joined #lisp 03:13:10 -!- thom_ [~thom@pool-74-100-140-188.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:13:18 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-132-77.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:17:22 gonzojive_ [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:19:52 enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-76-233-179-123.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:22:15 italic [~italic@c-71-56-183-137.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:23:39 i'm looking to play around with some terminal based animation, any recommended libs? ala ncurses 03:28:14 -!- myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:28:50 http://www.cliki.net/CL-Ncurses 03:28:56 italic: browse cliki, there may be more 03:31:31 gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 03:32:59 -!- M-sprite [~M-sprite@60.183.247.16] has quit [Quit: I need to code or sleep now .] 03:33:12 -!- huangho [~vitor@201-15-185-74.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 03:51:37 -!- icbh [~icbh@ntszok054022.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:57:41 spiaggia [~user@113.161.72.9] has joined #lisp 03:58:17 Good afternoon everyone! 04:04:26 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.79.181] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:04:29 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:04:55 lemoinem [~swoog@216-73-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 04:08:01 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-128-63.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:10:59 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-128-63.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:11:14 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.253.154.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:11:51 Chat0659 [ikhnci@69.41.165.101] has joined #lisp 04:13:15 hi 04:13:51 schoppenhauer1 [~christoph@ppp-93-104-3-197.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 04:15:11 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:18:31 -!- Chat0659 [ikhnci@69.41.165.101] has quit [Quit: Chatmosphere - IRC for Blackberry] 04:19:19 lo 04:20:58 paul0 [~paul0@189.114.206.34.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 04:21:27 -!- Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 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[~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:47:22 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-tfljgnlyhibhfzqj] has joined #lisp 04:53:40 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:53:46 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:53:54 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-31-120.iburst.co.za] has left #lisp 04:56:50 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:58:10 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 05:04:56 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-35-55-179.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:05:52 evening 05:07:09 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 05:09:29 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.84.70] has joined #lisp 05:16:11 -!- super__ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:19:26 MoALTz [~no@92.10.82.154] has joined #lisp 05:24:10 -!- coldnew [~coldnew@ymu041-045.ym.edu.tw] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:24:54 oudeis [~oudeis@236.sub-75-212-74.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 05:30:54 -!- vilsonvieira [~vilson@189.26.153.117.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 05:32:45 NihilistDandy [~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:32:58 coldnew [~coldnew@ymu041-045.ym.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 05:34:11 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@201.102.93.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:35:04 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@236.sub-75-212-74.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:42:33 oudeis [~oudeis@163.sub-75-217-52.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 05:45:14 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:45:29 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-92-21.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 05:46:12 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 05:48:24 -!- coldnew [~coldnew@ymu041-045.ym.edu.tw] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:50:00 ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has joined #lisp 05:58:12 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 05:58:54 hello slyrus 05:59:02 hey beach 05:59:14 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:59:55 slyrus: I haven't had time to look at your latest improvements, because I have been thinking about a smarter algorithm for incremental repaint in CLIMatis. 06:00:46 cool. I've been working on the affine xfrm stuff. bilinear now works. 06:00:59 quadratic is still messed up somehow... 06:02:23 You were going to ping me about something related to that. 06:04:34 -!- Fare [~Fare@64.119.159.126] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:04:41 <_3b> quadratic? 06:06:57 -!- hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440254.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:07:16 hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440254.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 06:08:20 -!- M-sprite [~M-sprite@122.237.42.181] has quit [Quit: I need to code or sleep now .] 06:13:58 spiaggia: yeah, that and the whole viewports thing... both of which will have to wait for another time. just flew home a couple hours ago... 06:14:25 OK, no problem. 06:14:59 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:15:29 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:17:44 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:19:48 NateYuan [~byuan@61.148.56.138] has joined #lisp 06:21:05 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sbahra] 06:22:09 beach: I think the smart incremental repaint is pretty important 06:22:22 do you have a CLIM3 spec draft that you're working from yet? 06:22:51 alama [~alama@62.169.67.133] has joined #lisp 06:25:22 -!- alama [~alama@62.169.67.133] has quit [Client Quit] 06:25:31 -!- NihilistDandy [~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:28:21 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.253.154.71] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 06:29:31 alama [~alama@62.169.67.133] has joined #lisp 06:29:32 -!- alama [~alama@62.169.67.133] has quit [Client Quit] 06:31:03 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:31:59 slyrus: Yes, it's in the CLIMatis distribution, but it is *very* preliminary still. 06:32:17 slyrus: I can't quite figure out what parts to work on in which order. 06:33:04 slyrus: After incremental repaint, I wanted to improve the commands chapter of the CLIM II spec. 06:33:17 spiaggia: where would I find the climatis distribution? 06:33:46 Hold on... 06:37:03 slyrus: Try git clone http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/CLIMatis 06:37:43 fatal: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/CLIMatis/info/refs not found: did you run git update-server-info on the server? 06:37:52 crap 06:38:39 did that, now does it work? 06:38:50 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 06:41:11 yes, thanks 06:42:18 slyrus: The part about optimal repaint should not be in the spec, but instead an implementation detail, and that's the part that I am currently reworking to make it simpler, faster, and less consing. 06:44:56 leo2007 [~leo@124.72.187.49] has joined #lisp 06:49:06 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 06:50:06 Demosthenes [~demo@65.41.157.11] has joined #lisp 06:50:30 -!- adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 06:50:37 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 06:52:38 -!- pabst [~anonymous@70-36-139-35.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:54:16 -!- italic [~italic@c-71-56-183-137.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:58:30 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:59:48 -!- schoppenhauer1 [~christoph@ppp-93-104-3-197.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:00:03 -!- hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:00:50 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:00:53 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2EA5D.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:01:11 hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has joined #lisp 07:02:11 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:02:47 -!- kdas_ [~kdas@117.201.98.181] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:02:48 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:03:50 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has quit [Quit: Eish] 07:04:07 pabst [~anonymous@70-36-139-45.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 07:04:08 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:13:38 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@65.41.157.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:14:50 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:20:54 -!- illumina` [~user@pool-71-114-7-169.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:21:01 slash_ [~unknown@pD955ED82.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:21:29 illumina` [~user@pool-71-114-7-169.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:23:06 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-ikzaaxncypvjexan] has joined #lisp 07:23:06 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-ikzaaxncypvjexan] has quit [Changing host] 07:23:06 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 07:23:28 easyE [gn8T0ko65K@panix2.panix.com] has joined #lisp 07:28:42 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-gpikvusfjevjehhk] has joined #lisp 07:29:21 nostoi [~nostoi@80.Red-79-154-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:29:28 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-77-24.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:30:01 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@163.sub-75-217-52.myvzw.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 07:35:06 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-xlqowfieqaztqujc] has joined #lisp 07:37:53 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has joined #lisp 07:40:58 daniel_ [~daniel@p5082A8D9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:42:51 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5B32721E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:44:17 oudeis [~oudeis@71.134.205.12] has joined #lisp 07:46:56 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:47:09 good morning 07:47:15 hello mvilleneuve 07:47:49 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:48:11 mvilleneuve: How is work on LOOP going? 07:48:50 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.202.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:49:37 fusss [~fusss@120.154.163.118] has joined #lisp 07:50:02 anyone know of a decent html templating DSL that I can clone for lisp? 07:51:00 html-template is utterly ugly. closure-template is bloated with Google aesthetics. And I don't know any other markup other than those two. Is there something that's actually beautiful? 07:52:51 there is djula too, which is a clone of django templates (dunno what those look like) 07:55:45 Aren't there already templating DSLs in lisp? 07:55:55 Or am I thinking the wrong thing? 07:56:10 Maybe haml or jade? 07:58:32 jesusabdullah: where? 07:58:51 *fusss* has never used any templating language, like, ever 07:59:57 http://www.cliki.net/HTML%20template 08:00:07 http://www.cliki.net/HTML%20generator 08:00:30 also http://haml-lang.com/ since I mentioned it 08:00:31 -!- whee [~whee@cpe-69-207-157-162.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:03:06 whee [~whee@cpe-69-207-157-162.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:06:08 so, do all templating languages just convert symbols<-->html form elements 1:1; or are there some that understand higher level pseudo elements, like 'date','number','range', etc.? 08:06:33 sharps [~hazel@ip-118-90-82-239.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:06:59 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@71.134.205.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:07:32 *_3b* thought most of them were at least a bit programmable 08:09:00 fusss: think about it! 08:09:07 fusss: hint: defun 08:09:21 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:09:34 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@80.Red-79-154-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 08:10:35 pjb: :-) 08:10:38 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 08:11:03 pjb: I got the Lisp side covered; i just was shopping for ideas on how it's done elsewhere 08:11:05 You may find it useful to try a templating language and see what you like and dislike 08:11:11 gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.202.111] has joined #lisp 08:11:12 instead of reinventing the wheel right away 08:11:33 jesusabdullah: I'm looking at Nick Allen's djangy; django templates for hunchentoot 08:12:39 jesusabdullah: I used html-template and i hated every bit of it 08:12:45 Ah 08:13:18 I think my favored approach was to use jquery 08:13:24 Have a look at http://git.informatimago.com/viewgit/index.php?a=tree&p=public/lisp&h=f64877f8f9172158734a9e0bb899da2debcec72e&hb=a78d355f14d88a86e420a63e6d2116587b006975&f=common-lisp/html-generator too. 08:13:28 i have hammered out a ghastly CMS with cl-who, and my fingers lost their prints from typing 08:13:34 not a templating language really, but a nice way to make sweet web pages 08:13:51 jesusabdullah: how is jquery like a templating language? 08:14:40 Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has joined #lisp 08:14:47 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.130.73] has joined #lisp 08:15:09 fusss: It's not, but you can create html elements and append them to things. You can use selectors and such to solve similar problems 08:15:29 pjb: alright-p to share that link with others on reddit? the write up looks more thorough than anything else I have seen. Reading now .. 08:15:40 fusss: go ahead. 08:16:29 tcr1 [~tcr@86.Red-83-33-177.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:16:31 -!- Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Fullma] 08:16:56 jesusabdullah: I already do that with jquery. First, I render the page with cl-who, take inputs via http methods, and store state in sessions. However, i have jquery utils loaded from the bottom of the page and they transform everything to snappy ajaxy wizzbang 08:18:21 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has joined #lisp 08:19:00 I could write a treatise on the pragmatics and aesthetics of form processing :-/ too many conflicting design choices; you want to maximize code-sharing between web and service UIs, while accommodating asynchronous calls. 08:19:28 anyhoo, there's gotta be a better way than what I'm currently doing 08:19:53 Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 08:21:38 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:23:56 -!- ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:24:40 -!- paul0 [~paul0@189.114.206.34.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: paul0] 08:25:39 alright, later all 08:25:40 -!- fusss [~fusss@120.154.163.118] has left #lisp 08:26:09 ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has joined #lisp 08:30:02 -!- hramrach_ 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09:59:00 -!- minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:00:22 beach: what's "CLIMatis"? 10:01:19 oh, implementation of CLIM3? 10:02:20 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:03:43 nullman [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:04:55 mathrick: Right! 10:05:18 beach: how related is it to McCLIM? 10:05:56 mathrick: at the moment, not at all, but I intend to reuse goodies like the implementation of presentation types. 10:06:02 that, and you oughta make a CLiki page for it all :) 10:06:22 mathrick: That makes me tired just to think about. 10:06:23 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.214.174] has joined #lisp 10:06:26 RaceCondition [~erik@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe5ddc00-120.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 10:06:28 heh 10:07:04 beach: at least a tiny short intro (like 3 sentences, plus a fourth one to say "and CLIMatis is the initial implementation of it") would be good 10:07:14 rvirding [~chatzilla@h134n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 10:08:20 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.10.82.154] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:09:09 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756b3a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:09:11 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 10:09:13 Yeah, yeah. There are so many things that would be good :) 10:09:50 mitre_ [~chatzilla@74.112.63.251] has joined #lisp 10:10:42 -!- mitre [~chatzilla@74.112.63.251] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:10:47 -!- mitre_ is now known as mitre 10:15:34 littlerue: How is learning Lisp coming along? 10:18:20 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 10:19:50 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:19:56 -!- nullman [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:20:16 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 10:20:16 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 10:20:16 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 10:20:24 beach: ill get there eventually, im taking a slight detour through haskell atm 10:26:49 lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:28:27 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:34:16 nullman [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:34:20 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h134n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203074432]] 10:42:26 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:43:55 gonzojive_ [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:46:51 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 10:47:01 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 10:52:02 Krystof_ [~csr21@213.27.167.113] has joined #lisp 10:52:08 slash_1 [~unknown@pD955EAE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:54:02 -!- Krystof [~csr21@213.27.167.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:54:33 -!- slash_ [~unknown@pD955ED82.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:55:25 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:56:09 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 10:56:09 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 10:56:09 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 10:58:02 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:01:21 carlocci [~nes@93.37.212.215] has joined #lisp 11:03:48 -!- slash_1 [~unknown@pD955EAE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:05:34 -!- gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:06:55 -!- p_l|home [~pl@213.5.11.129] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:09:39 fusss [~fusss@120.156.242.188] has joined #lisp 11:10:22 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:10:45 am I out of luck trying to make a fake "file-stream" out of a string? I want to subclass FILE-STREAM and somehow trick Lisp into thinking input from a string is coming from a file 11:10:51 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:13:08 you are basically out of luck 11:13:20 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 11:13:23 with a certain amount of magic you can do things, but it is magic 11:13:29 why does a string-input-stream not work? 11:17:46 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 11:18:19 Krystof_: wrapping other people's code 11:18:54 would be nice if input was accepted as normal arguments, not read from file (Unixism) 11:19:13 -!- fusss [~fusss@120.156.242.188] has left #lisp 11:22:35 brodo [~brodo@p5B022CFC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:28:11 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe5ddc00-120.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: RaceCondition] 11:31:18 RaceCondition [~erik@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe5ddc00-120.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 11:31:54 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 11:32:33 pjb pasted "string to file-stream" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/119653 11:32:55 fusss: Not tested, but something like that should be an acceptable solution. 11:33:41 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 11:33:44 Oops: Move around the unwind-protect to avoid deleting the file when it already existed. 11:34:09 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 11:35:17 Younder [~john@224.13.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 11:36:12 /msg NickServ identify To2CbCD 11:36:56 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-178-117.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:38:36 Krystof__ [~csr21@213.27.167.113] has joined #lisp 11:39:13 -!- Krystof__ is now known as Krystof 11:39:38 -!- hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:41:22 hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has joined #lisp 11:42:05 -!- Krystof_ 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-!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 12:10:20 rdd` [~rdd@c83-250-51-60.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 12:11:01 /who rdd` 12:11:16 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-128-63.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:11:36 Krystof_ [~csr21@213.27.167.113] has joined #lisp 12:11:47 mathrick, Nop, something wrong in XChat. 12:13:21 milanj [~milanj_@109-92-124-195.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 12:13:30 -!- Krystof [~csr21@213.27.167.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:13:46 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-51-60.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:13:52 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-128-63.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:14:02 -!- rdd` is now known as rdd 12:15:40 -!- silentbicycle [~scott@99-55-246-143.lightspeed.gdrpmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:15:43 -!- Hoornet [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:16:23 lesse if it kills my X again now 12:17:11 yup, somehow it locks up the display 12:18:03 mathrick, Do you have any experience with Gnome programming? 12:18:21 somewhat, yes 12:18:50 -!- Krystof_ [~csr21@213.27.167.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:19:06 milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 12:19:48 mathrick, I believe it doesn't check the 'display' property. 12:20:06 that wouldn't result in my display going south, though 12:20:59 I think it's something to do with the window being too big and the WM somehow freaking out 12:22:05 mathrick, It might.. Try alt- ctrl and 1 though 9. That changes between virtual terminals. 12:22:12 .... 12:22:15 I know all that 12:23:13 Well in the one error I had like that It was sendt to the wrong tty. 12:23:42 the problem is the whole X display stops updating until I kill genera 12:25:03 blandest [~user@85.204.33.242] has joined #lisp 12:25:45 sharps1 [~hazel@ip-118-90-82-239.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 12:27:17 alama [~alama@193.137.143.155] has joined #lisp 12:27:38 -!- sharps [~hazel@ip-118-90-82-239.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:30:20 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 12:30:46 Krystof_ [~csr21@91.221.111.7] has joined #lisp 12:31:11 sharps [~hazel@ip-118-90-82-239.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 12:31:36 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 12:31:39 b4|hraban [~b4|hraban@a83-163-234-66.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 12:32:21 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:32:48 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 12:32:54 Hi, I am having some trouble with a newbie question concerning keywords too generic for succesful google 12:33:14 -!- sharps1 [~hazel@ip-118-90-82-239.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:33:31 I suggest beating it with a spoon. 12:33:31 the problem is: I have a function that returns a list and I want to deal with the elements separately. so I though I'd assign (let, setq, ...) them to separate variables. 12:33:55 See destructuring-bind. 12:34:06 however, I can not really find an elegant way to do that (let ((ret (funcall)) (a (pop ret) (b (pop...) 12:34:09 oh 12:34:17 ehh *that was the closest I got 12:34:25 let me look up that destructuring thing. thanks 12:34:37 Also, you'd want let* in your example. 12:35:50 ooh 12:36:10 b4|hraban, Remember a list is a boject so assign it to a variable and use mapcar or '(loop for in list do .. 12:36:13 Also, you may want to see values and multiple-value-bind. 12:36:23 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:36:43 Zhivago: yeah I am pondering making this a multiple return value function rather than a list... I thought list would be nice, but so far no luck 12:36:58 astoon [~astoon@109.188.232.93] has joined #lisp 12:37:06 What you say you want should be straight-forward with either approach. 12:37:08 Younder: that would be great if I wanted to treat each return value similarly, but they are different 12:37:20 If that is really what you want is another question. :) 12:37:43 Zhivago: true, but not /that/ relevant here since my ultimate goal is learning lisp 12:37:51 so now that this came up, might as well fight it 12:38:57 b4|hraban, So you do want 'metabang-bind'.. 12:38:57 hello lispers 12:39:04 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-178-117.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 12:39:53 Younder: ok, I will look into them now 12:39:59 thanks for the suggestions so far 12:40:08 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-178-117.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:40:49 b4|hraban: what's the problem with the list + MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND approach? 12:41:18 mathrick: nothing so far, I had never heard of multiple value bind and I am trying to understand the clhs right now 12:41:29 b4|hraban, Oh, matabang bind is a library. so you need to download if.You ARE using quicklisp..? 12:41:30 b4|hraban: it's simple 12:41:42 clisp 12:41:50 Well, lists not being multiple-values might be an issue ... 12:42:05 true, thinko 12:42:16 I meant DESTRUCTURING-BIND 12:42:21 lol 12:42:22 yes, ditto 12:42:39 b4|hraban: still, just try (destructuring-bind (foo bar baz) (list 10 20 30) baz) 12:42:51 mathrick: ok 12:43:24 ah yes this was exactly what I was looking for 12:43:55 I tried to recreate this as a macro but my lisp fu was not strong enough >.< 12:44:09 learn to walk before running 12:44:22 thank you guys a lot, mathrick, Younder and Zhivago :) 12:44:30 b4|hraban: obligatory question, have you read PCL? 12:44:36 yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 12:44:37 if not, you want to 12:44:41 is that the gigamonkeys book? 12:44:43 yes 12:44:44 Lycurgus [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:44:46 yes I read it 12:44:52 do it again then :) 12:44:52 (the first dozen or so chapters) 12:45:02 mathrick: to be honest, it's boring 12:45:17 I tried learning lisp that way for years and the result was that I never did any actual programming 12:45:23 What really drove me to bind what the way (values ...) was handled. (multiple-value-bind (...) (funcall yadayada)) is quite a mouthfull. and it breaks the form of a function. It is like you are being punished for choosing a efficient solution. 12:45:42 -!- astoon [~astoon@109.188.232.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:45:45 now that I am trying to actually write something I have learned an order of magnitude more in one day than I have in the past two years 12:45:46 b4|hraban: it wasn't to me, but either way you still want to have it open while you do things like "how do I?" 12:46:05 mathrick: true, thanks for the reminder. 12:46:26 astoon [~astoon@109.188.232.93] has joined #lisp 12:47:29 -!- alama [~alama@193.137.143.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:49:07 jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:49:18 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:49:35 adu [~ajr@softbank220043139062.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 12:50:00 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-178-117.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:50:50 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:50:59 milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 12:51:10 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:55:14 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:19 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 12:56:22 orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has joined #lisp 12:57:05 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-tfljgnlyhibhfzqj] has left #lisp 12:57:10 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:57:11 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:57:33 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:58:41 -!- pabst [~anonymous@70-36-139-45.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: pabst] 12:59:51 -!- orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:00:29 tcr1 [~tcr@91.221.111.7] has joined #lisp 13:00:29 orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has joined #lisp 13:01:09 -!- jesusito [~user@58.pool85-49-45.dynamic.orange.es] has left #lisp 13:01:33 bye, and thanks again. 13:01:36 -!- b4|hraban [~b4|hraban@a83-163-234-66.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #lisp 13:03:25 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:03:40 sharps1 [~hazel@ip-118-90-82-239.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 13:04:58 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@91.221.111.7] has quit [Client Quit] 13:05:14 -!- sharps [~hazel@ip-118-90-82-239.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:07:02 Lisp is a doers (hackers) language. 13:07:22 Opps, too late. 13:07:23 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 13:08:37 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-90-49.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 13:09:01 WB Zach. 13:09:16 WB Xach. 13:11:15 sellout [~Adium@64.134.66.161] has joined #lisp 13:11:51 Loved Quicklisp. Any interest in a peep-hole high level assembler. I am prototyping one for formula anyhow so you might as well see the code and see if it something you can use. 13:12:20 What does a peep-hole high level assembler do? 13:13:30 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-77-24.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:14:51 It is a assember, but more along the lines of HAL 'http://webster.cs.ucr.edu/AsmTools/HLA/' which allows loop exceptions, function calls and other plain vanilla stuff to be entered as macro's . 13:15:17 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 13:15:37 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Client Quit] 13:15:37 tronador_ [~guille@190.255.83.103] has joined #lisp 13:15:50 Have you seen frodef's movitz assembler? 13:16:01 no 13:16:35 -!- sellout [~Adium@64.134.66.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:16:41 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.255.83.103] has left #lisp 13:16:44 I found it interesting to read. 13:16:49 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-164-38.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 13:19:20 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 13:19:40 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.212.215] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 13:19:57 sellout [~Adium@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 13:20:18 lurker-x [~androirc@c-75-72-99-111.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:17 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:21:40 Xach, I'll look into it. 13:22:22 rapacity [~prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has joined #lisp 13:22:41 ah, Frode V. Fjeld 13:25:32 Is there some form of handler-case that can take multiple condition types in the same clause? 13:26:27 Well, my idea was to use the tables of the NASM assembler (which are constantly updated) and provide the parser and the macro system. 13:27:08 drdo, no 13:27:36 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756b3a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:28:11 drdo: factor the handling out to a named function, then reuse that? 13:28:38 paul0 [~paul0@189.114.206.34.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 13:28:41 mathrick: Well sure, it's always possible to create a one-line function to do that 13:28:44 drdo: but you can also use (or type1 type2 ...) 13:28:47 looking at the clhs page, the error-clause is a type specifier 13:28:53 pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:ddfc] has joined #lisp 13:28:53 so what mathrick says 13:28:58 oh, alright then 13:29:10 Raykon [~user@2001:690:2100:1b:3615:9eff:fe97:888b] has joined #lisp 13:29:14 thanks 13:30:27 urandom__ [~user@p548A5D43.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:46 drdo: usually looking at the examples in CLHS clears up a lot 13:33:43 -!- astoon [~astoon@109.188.232.93] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:34:07 -!- rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 13:34:20 -!- lurker-x [~androirc@c-75-72-99-111.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bye...] 13:37:00 mathrick, Doesn’t work for me. 13:37:10 you're doing it wrong then 13:37:57 well obviously.. 13:39:08 Hrmm  I wrote a version of `git bisect` for svn at some point  I wonder where I put that, or if it's lost forever in some ex-employer's network. 13:39:17 And, wrong channel  sorry. 13:40:10 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:40:41 sellout: use bzr-svn and then bisect with bzr's native implementation :) 13:40:41 mathrick, doh, forgot the extra parenthesis. 13:41:10 Younder: dude, I don't need to know that. Don't highlight me unless it's actually worth my attention 13:41:13 To #lisp: http://i.imgur.com/os4ap.png 13:41:24 mathrick: Good point (not that I need the svn one for myself anymore). 13:44:23 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:44:48 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 13:45:08 Happy yet another random day where people buy useless junk for each other 13:45:15 Sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 13:46:50 -!- orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:47:14 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:47:55 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:48:27 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:50:25 orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has joined #lisp 13:50:26 -!- paul0 [~paul0@189.114.206.34.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:51:16 astoon [~astoon@109.188.232.93] has joined #lisp 13:53:11 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 13:53:28 amb007 [~a_bakic@87.29.195-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 13:56:57 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:57:48 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:59:14 SuChek [~SQ@62-47-220-156.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 13:59:29 -!- astoon [~astoon@109.188.232.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:59:57 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:01:00 deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 14:05:04 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl15-225-71.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 14:05:38 paul0 [~paul0@189.114.206.34.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 14:07:03 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:08 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:10:34 -!- ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:10:56 -!- Raykon [~user@2001:690:2100:1b:3615:9eff:fe97:888b] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:11:01 gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:26 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:14:45 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-gpikvusfjevjehhk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:15:48 -!- orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:18:50 jkantz [~jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:19:04 -!- sharps1 [~hazel@ip-118-90-82-239.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has left #lisp 14:19:43 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:23:38 -!- adu [~ajr@softbank220043139062.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:24:39 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:24:50 -!- gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:25:53 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:28:09 does anyone know what resolution the LispM screens had? 14:28:26 -!- sellout [~Adium@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:28:44 gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:43 -!- betbot_ [~betbot@109.188.176.220] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:30:58 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-92-21.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:31:38 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-92-21.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:31:47 -!- coldnew [~coldnew@ymu041-045.ym.edu.tw] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:32:08 AndroUser2 [~androirc@166.188.188.55] has joined #lisp 14:32:25 antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 14:33:59 mathrick: http://lemonodor.com/archives/000256.html according to the brocures there, 1280x1024 14:34:27 thanks 14:34:31 up to 14:34:35 monochrome, of course 14:35:21 as far as i know they were 14:35:26 *LiamH* had a color screen on a separate monitor 14:35:34 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 14:35:34 yes, but you could use them with colour displays 14:35:58 The standard console was monochrome though. 14:37:36 I wish people would stop worshiping ancient hardware. 14:38:50 -!- AndroUser2 [~androirc@166.188.188.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:39:33 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:40:21 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:40:34 more like pining after the good old days when there were lots of different archs 14:40:55 some better than others 14:41:01 sykopomp [~user@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has joined #lisp 14:41:29 Zhivago: far from worshipping, some of us are merely trying to run the emulator and running into odd issues 14:41:32 -!- gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:42:24 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:42:28 hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 14:43:10 -!- ymv [~imv@94.231.123.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:43:19 although I wax somewhat worshipful when I reflect that my fave had a line that was user microprogrammable 14:43:52 -!- sykopomp [~user@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has quit [Changing host] 14:43:53 sykopomp [~user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 14:44:50 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 14:45:20 tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has joined #lisp 14:45:37 morning 14:46:00 moin slyrus 14:46:04 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Quit] 14:50:53 -!- sykopomp [~user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:51:31 sykopomp [~user@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has joined #lisp 14:51:33 ymv 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[~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:33:49 -!- Krystof_ [~csr21@91.221.111.7] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:38:18 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:39:46 -!- pnq [~nick@AC814977.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:47:54 spradnyesh [~pradyus@115.184.71.20] has joined #lisp 15:48:26 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:48:55 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 15:50:18 Krystof_ [~csr21@91.221.111.7] has joined #lisp 15:50:42 myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 15:51:50 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:51:50 -!- Krystof_ [~csr21@91.221.111.7] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:52:48 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@115.184.71.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:53:53 longshot_ [~longshot@180.184.10.76] has joined #lisp 15:54:22 -!- longshot_ is now known as Guest64624 15:56:33 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:56:33 -!- longshot [~longshot@207.204.232.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:56:35 froydnj: any reason you're not advertizing the repo of nibbles? I've found it based on ironclad's... just wondering. repos are much more practical than tgz's 15:58:17 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:58:30 -!- specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:59:31 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:59:58 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@chris-PC.price.clarkson.edu] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 16:00:15 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-31-120.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:00:41 attila_lendvai: I disagree 16:00:55 attila_lendvai: on the webpage, you mean? I mentioned it in the announcement 16:02:26 fe[nl]ix: how is a repo access not more practical than a .tgz? 16:03:41 cibs [~cibs@Sylpheed.Math.NCTU.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 16:04:06 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-173-137.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:04:06 jdz: if you don't have a vcs client 16:04:10 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-173-137.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:04:18 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:31 -!- alama [~alama@a79-169-84-216.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: alama] 16:06:44 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-128-63.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:07:07 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-huojoggmuwtqelmr] has joined #lisp 16:07:10 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-31-120.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:07:26 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-31-120.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:08:04 -!- slash_ [~unknown@pD955EAE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:08:09 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-173-137.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:08:15 Krystof_ [~csr21@91.221.111.7] has joined #lisp 16:10:09 Motsu [~dan@bb220-255-195-114.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 16:10:09 -!- Krystof_ [~csr21@91.221.111.7] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:10:10 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:10:26 Krystof_ [~csr21@91.221.111.7] has joined #lisp 16:12:02 -!- astoon [~astoon@178.130.1.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:12:46 froydnj: yes, I meant the nibbles webpage 16:12:59 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 16:13:01 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756b3a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:47 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 16:13:55 fe[nl]ix: a repo with a tag for releases is imho much more practical, especially with darcs that makes it trivial to pull a realase and cherry pick from the post-release fixes 16:14:01 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 16:14:37 attila_lendvai: no reason, guess I could add it (likewise for ironclad and chipz, for that matter) 16:15:19 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:50 tcr1 [~tcr@91.221.111.7] has joined #lisp 16:15:54 Are there 3 expected failures in ironclad? 16:16:07 (All related to tree-hash.) 16:16:52 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-92-21.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:16:52 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@91.221.111.7] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:17:35 tcr1 [~tcr@91.221.111.7] has joined #lisp 16:18:35 -!- myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:18:35 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@91.221.111.7] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:18:52 possibly because tree-hash.test-vector or whatever doesn't exist 16:18:56 because I fail at packagin 16:19:11 tcr1 [~tcr@91.221.111.7] has joined #lisp 16:20:13 -!- Krystof_ [~csr21@91.221.111.7] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:20:13 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@91.221.111.7] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:20:32 -!- Motsu [~dan@bb220-255-195-114.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:20:40 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-huojoggmuwtqelmr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:20:47 tcr1 [~tcr@91.221.111.7] has joined #lisp 16:21:30 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:22:00 Ok. That's what I see: not tree-hash.test-vector. Otherwise, all other tests pass. 16:22:07 Er, no, not not. 16:22:33 Liera [~Liera@123.20.62.22] has joined #lisp 16:23:26 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 16:24:50 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 16:24:50 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@91.221.111.7] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:24:53 tcr2 [~tcr@91.221.111.7] has joined #lisp 16:25:19 rins [~user@173-162-214-174-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:25:50 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-31-120.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:25:58 longshot [~longshot@180.184.9.173] has joined #lisp 16:26:06 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-31-120.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:26:58 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:26:58 -!- tcr2 [~tcr@91.221.111.7] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:27:38 -!- Guest64624 [~longshot@180.184.10.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:27:59 tcr1 [~tcr@91.221.111.7] has joined #lisp 16:28:10 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@91.221.111.7] has left #lisp 16:28:13 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:29:08 cmatei: OK, so I got genera running, now how do I use it? Am I supposed to "Login" first, or is that command not needed? 16:29:40 tcr2 [~tcr@91.221.111.7] has joined #lisp 16:29:47 -!- tcr2 [~tcr@91.221.111.7] has quit [Client Quit] 16:30:03 -!- Sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:31:14 -!- longshot [~longshot@180.184.9.173] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:31:38 -!- blandest [~user@85.204.33.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:31:42 longshot [~longshot@216.131.74.24] has joined #lisp 16:32:12 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:32:50 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-31-120.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:33:06 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-31-120.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:33:40 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:29 genera is a single user system 16:36:08 the Login command was for author info and network, wasn't it? 16:36:14 lispm had some videos up on using genera 16:36:30 mathrick: you got Genera running? 16:36:36 it's supposed to be self documenting to some extent. find out which key on your keyboard is mapped to 'help' 16:36:42 p_l|backup: yup 16:36:44 mathrick: there is a copious amount of guides on how to run opengenera 16:38:56 rtoym: probably harmless 16:39:32 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.130.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:40:19 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.130.73] has joined #lisp 16:40:41 froydnj: Ok. 16:40:59 ehu: Did you ever get a chance to see if plotting works with abcl? 16:41:32 coldnew [~coldnew@ymu041-045.ym.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 16:43:43 myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 16:44:49 -!- pabst [~anonymous@70-36-139-45.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: pabst] 16:45:45 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 16:46:36 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:47:46 hi, i need MOP-related help 16:48:01 i'm creating classes at runtime via ensure-class, classes are in inheritance connection with each-other, problem is that with (mapcar #'slot-definition-initform (class-slots (find-class 'top-class i get only NIL for every slot 16:48:32 did you finalize your class? 16:48:40 yes 16:48:46 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:48:49 *classes 16:49:14 it does work for class-direct-slots 16:49:54 Krystof [~csr21@91.221.111.7] has joined #lisp 16:50:10 ah, yes, that's right 16:51:38 though, wait 16:52:21 it did work one time, i dont know what i did in REPL though 16:52:33 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 16:52:33 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 16:52:33 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 16:53:15 zmyrgel [~user@hoasb-ff0cdd00-22.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 16:53:23 hmm, does Document Examiner have a "Back" command? 16:53:59 ahh 16:54:03 :initfunction 16:54:03 -!- Krystof [~csr21@91.221.111.7] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:55:13 ikki [~ikki@189.139.144.6] has joined #lisp 16:55:20 like always, i forget to save that in file, just type it in repl and forget about it 16:55:27 stassats`, thanks anyway 16:57:42 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:59:30 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:01:34 -!- Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:02:24 let's say i create a variable like so: (defparameter *bar* 1 "abc") 17:02:27 Doesn't SBCL infer types both ways? 17:02:29 how would i view its documentation? 17:02:45 pattern: the standard generic function DOCUMENTATION is one way. 17:02:57 (documentation *bar* 'symbol) tells me: "WARNING: unsupported DOCUMENTATION: type SYMBOL for object of type BIT" 17:03:26 (describe '*bar*) is another 17:03:53 pattern: Perhaps the number 1 is not documented as a symbol ... 17:03:57 pattern: you need to quote *bar* if you want to pass the symbol *bar* 17:03:59 pattern: DOCUMENTATION evaluates its arguments, so you are calling it with a first argument of 1. 17:04:11 (documentation '*bar* 'symbol) 17:04:14 "WARNING: unsupported DOCUMENTATION: type SYMBOL for object of type SYMBOL" 17:04:18 hmm 17:04:34 the second argument should be VARIABLE 17:04:35 pattern: VARIABLE is the thing to use. 17:04:40 oh 17:04:51 see http://l1sp.org/cl/documentation for some more info 17:05:22 according to that, the syntax should be "documentation x doc-type => documentation" 17:05:30 so doc-type is the second argument, not the first 17:05:51 and (documentation 'symbol '*bar*) tells me: "WARNING: unsupported DOCUMENTATION: type *BAR* for object of type SYMBOL" 17:06:21 can someone just give me a correct example 17:06:26 so i don't have to play 20 questions 17:06:34 (documentation '*bar* 'variable) 17:06:35 pattern: No, (documentation '*bar* 'variable) 17:06:36 pattern: Why not try adeht's suggestion? 17:06:38 thank you 17:06:38 people told you that 17:06:59 i misunderstood 17:07:17 i thought adeht meant that the second argument should be the variable i'm asking for documentation on 17:07:28 not the literal symbol 'variable 17:07:38 an example cleared it up 17:07:52 I mean when you declare the function type it will most probably infer all LETs and the returned type. But is there a way to make it infer function type by having all necessary inner variables and functions types declared? 17:08:11 Like Haskell does :-[ 17:08:17 pattern: I used upper-case to designate a symbol 17:08:36 adeht: i thought you were just emphasizing the word 17:08:49 pattern: you may want to adjust this expectation :) 17:08:56 adeht: About the only advantage of case insensitivty, talking on IRC 17:09:22 anyway, i appreciate the help 17:09:48 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:10:00 rvirding [~chatzilla@c-8b92e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:10:15 jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-87.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:10:26 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 17:12:01 I guess no. 17:12:10 Krystof [~csr21@91.221.111.7] has joined #lisp 17:13:22 naryl: it depends on the implementation.. except that you can't declare the return type without function type declarations 17:13:33 -!- Krystof [~csr21@91.221.111.7] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:17:50 Some Haskell adept claims that writing typed programs in Lisp is a pain. And here is his proof: 17:17:52 Prelude> let f x = x + 7*x 17:17:54 Prelude> :t f 17:17:56 f :: (Num a) => a -> a 17:17:58 Prelude> let f x = x + (7*x :: Double) 17:18:00 Prelude> :t f 17:18:02 f :: Double -> Double 17:18:10 naryl: we don't care 17:18:34 :) Thanks. I shouldn't too. 17:20:00 naryl: sb-ext:*derive-function-types* 17:20:18 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-lxieujbujaorgxuz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:21:32 AlexSchell [~a_schell@p548A31E5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:07 -!- M-sprite [~M-sprite@122.237.31.158] has quit [Quit: I need to code or sleep now .] 17:27:12 myu2_ [~myu2@x108121.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 17:29:03 -!- myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:31:59 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:32:23 -!- AlexSchell [~a_schell@p548A31E5.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 17:34:40 Why is alexandria:iota called iota? :) Is it just some APL legacy like wikipedia claims? 17:34:52 yes. 17:35:14 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw81ffebee.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:36:49 Is it possible for an asdf system to cause another system to load/compile? 17:36:52 milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw81ffebee.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 17:37:43 rtoym: Yes  using depends-on, and also other ways. 17:37:45 rtoym: yes, (:depends-on "another-system") 17:37:49 I'm writing a test-op for a system, and I want it to load rt. 17:38:23 Hmm. I thought I did that. 17:38:24 rtoym: Your test op should probably have :depends-on (rt system-its-testing) 17:38:39 s/op/system 17:38:52 rtoym: Oh, hold on. 17:39:06 rtoym: You want to use :in-order-to, I think. 17:39:16 I have that too. 17:39:34 rtoym: Here's my post on how I set up test systems: http://blog.technomadic.org/?p=84 17:39:36 rtoym: a typical solution is to write foo-test system, which depends on foo and rt (or whatever) 17:39:45 Not sure how clear it is  I should just write one from scratch. 17:42:37 I think I'm basically doing what everyone has suggested. And it does seem to work with oct. Just not with series. I must have a typo/thinko somewhere. 17:44:03 rtoym: not yet. I need to install GNUplot first. 17:44:19 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:44:34 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:44:47 Oh, now it's working. I wonder what I messed up? 17:46:17 ehu: No problem. I was just curious. 17:46:32 rtoym: hopefully later this week... 17:46:41 *ehu* heads home now 17:46:44 later 17:47:50 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:47:57 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has joined #lisp 17:50:02 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:50:50 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.130.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:51:29 -!- keyvan [~keyvan@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:52:58 slash_ [~unknown@pD955EAE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:14 keyvan [~keyvan@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:30 -!- hlavaty [~user@95-88-27-48-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:55:30 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-155-192-7.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:50 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-31-120.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:57:05 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-31-120.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:57:23 -!- csamuelson [csamuelson@ec2-50-17-240-121.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:00:52 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:02:38 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c-8b92e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203074432]] 18:03:05 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756b3a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:04:30 cheez [~Adium@206-248-177-146.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 18:08:02 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:08:13 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.178.198] has joined #lisp 18:09:23 is this channel also for Scheme, or just CL? 18:09:50 CL only. 18:11:09 #scheme exists 18:11:23 yes, I'm there already, but just checking 18:11:29 fair enough 18:11:31 mducharme-uni [82b366df@gateway/web/freenode/ip.130.179.102.223] has joined #lisp 18:12:11 afternoon 18:12:43 can anyone tell me, on this page: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-a-simple-database.html <-- why in the remove if not example there is a single ' before the list of numbers? 18:12:50 it doesn't explain what that means 18:13:03 (remove-if-not #'evenp '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10)) 18:13:26 it explains what the #' means and I get that, but I don't get the ' before (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) 18:13:49 mducharme-uni: That's a literal list. 18:14:02 And it may in fact be the case that I failed to explain that until later. 18:14:02 mducharme-uni: 'foo is read syntax for (quote foo). Quote is a special operator that returns its argument un-evaluated. 18:14:20 mducharme-uni: so '(1 2 3) when evaluated returns (1 2 3). 18:14:28 No, hang on, it's in Chapter 3 18:14:31 ahh 18:15:30 Oh sorry. That is Chapter 3 QUOTE is explained in the next chapter. 18:15:44 oh ok 18:17:01 silentbicycle [~scott@99-55-246-143.lightspeed.gdrpmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:29 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@static-195-114-183-51.devs.futuro.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:17:31 so if you leave off the ' it tries to treat the list like a function? 18:18:35 mducharme-uni: it tries to evaluate it according to the normal list evaluation rules, which checks the first item in the list as guidance about how to evaluate the rest. 18:18:54 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_aba.htm has more info 18:19:39 jdz [~jdz@host45-44-dynamic.60-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:21:05 carlocci [~nes@93.37.222.23] has joined #lisp 18:22:01 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:23:30 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-32-119.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 18:23:30 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-32-119.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 18:23:30 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 18:24:42 mducharme-uni: or read Chapter 4, Syntax and Semantics, in PCL. 18:26:38 fusss [~fusss@58.171.128.247] has joined #lisp 18:26:41 -!- silentbicycle [~scott@99-55-246-143.lightspeed.gdrpmi.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 18:26:48 ok cool, I'll get there soon then 18:27:02 I just wanted to make sure I hadn't missed something already 18:27:36 i have seen LOOP with with collecting into a variable. I want to (loop for x from 0 to 10 collecting x as xs) or x into xs or similar 18:28:16 even the "IT" variable; how does one do that with loop? 18:29:23 -!- dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-66-144.xnet.hr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:30:34 fusss: Do what? Return the collection? 18:31:12 sellout1 [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:22 -!- sellout1 [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:31:33 fusss: The thing into which it collects is a loop variable, not something extra-loop. 18:31:37 antgreen [~user@nat/redhat/x-clofwbwhodfazafv] has joined #lisp 18:31:44 (loop for x from 0 to 10 collecting x into xs finally (return xs)) 18:31:51 Xach: how do I collectingotn a variable? 18:32:07 gigamonkey: let me cut and paste yours (I'm sure I typed that) 18:32:25 sellout1 [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:46 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:33:03 got it; I have (REVERSE xs) instead of (return xs) 18:33:14 -!- sellout [~Adium@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:33:29 dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-66-144.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 18:34:37 (ensure "abc" :tests stringp #'stringp 'stringp "abc" (not (zerop (length _)))) 18:34:43 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-92-21.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:35:06 what does #lisp think of that form? ugly? it tests "abc" against all subsequent 1-argument functions 18:35:53 fusss: that :ensure makes it look like a keyword argument 18:36:04 but what follows doesn't follow keyword arg conventions 18:36:14 so yeah, I'm not convinced (: 18:36:20 the :tests arg is cosmetic, btw 18:36:44 that doesn't make it any better (: 18:37:07 -!- pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:ddfc] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:37:13 (every (lambda (f) (funcall f "abc")) (list 'stringp #'stringp (lambda (x) (equal x "abc")) (lambda (x) (plusp (length x))))) 18:37:15 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:37:20 (ensure 123 integerp #'oddp (not (evenp _)) 123 (<= 123 _)) 18:37:46 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:37:56 pjb: I wrote this for form processing and need to pack as much constraints into a line or two, to look good 18:38:05 also, you might be interested in the #l reader macro (it's in iterate). 18:38:18 that felt a bit cleaner than the _ rewriting that you seem to be doing 18:38:19 fusss: to look good, it might be worthwhile to name them. 18:38:31 -!- aidalgol [aidan@2002:453d:f72::1337:3] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:38:39 fusss: I think it'd be nicer to define a type and use check-type instead. 18:38:40 (defparameter *abc-string-constaints* (list 'stringp #'stringp (lambda (x) (equal x "abc")) (lambda (x) (plusp (length x))))) 18:38:52 (every (lambda (f) (funcall f "abc")) *abc-string-constraints*) 18:38:58 good idea, xach. 18:39:10 Xach: that, in fact, will also benefit from a slew of other benefits 18:39:58 hmmm, alright, so the clergy are not happy with my papyrus, brb 18:40:33 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has joined #lisp 18:40:48 fusss: I'm less happy with your implicitness than with the syntax of your ensure operator. 18:41:02 timor [~timor@port-92-195-60-165.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:42:05 pjb: it was a good excuse to write a macro anyway 18:42:12 stassats`: amongst the piles of documentation available for running OG, do you know anything describing how to map the keys sanely to a standard PC keyboard? 18:42:58 no 18:43:04 -!- Liera [~Liera@123.20.62.22] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:44:37 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:45:53 stassats`: how about anything concerning mapping the keyboard? 18:46:33 aidalgol [aidan@2002:453d:f72::1337:3] has joined #lisp 18:48:06 no 18:48:50 i ran opengenera three years ago and now consider it a waste of time 18:49:49 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-31-120.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:49:49 mathrick: use the genera docsfor that 18:50:01 it ran with PC-style keyboard (well, "close to PC") 18:50:04 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-31-120.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:51:26 -!- aidalgol [aidan@2002:453d:f72::1337:3] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:51:34 also, you can get a schema for an usb to symbolics keyboard (the dark grey sliver one) adapter from h4ns (: 18:51:40 stassats`: fair enough. I'm not really seeing it replace my everyday desktop, what I'm actually after is understanding "possibilities buffers" 18:51:52 that's a way nicer keyboard (switch-wise) than this dell one I'm using right now 18:52:08 but, you know, no cursor keys. 18:52:13 my x60 has the nicest keyboard in existence 18:53:44 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:07 hun [~user@91-65-90-50-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:54:13 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:56:11 *mathrick* reboots 18:56:20 How do you do that? 18:56:25 reboot? 18:56:26 Any reset button somewhere? 18:56:37 no, I'm rebooting my actual machine :) 18:56:41 :-) 18:57:29 since I had to move to a full VM-in-VBox to host VLM anyway, and VBox is supposed to be able to run 64-bit guests on 32-bit hosts with VT, so I can revert my kernel hackery 18:57:47 lessee how hard it breaks in actuality 18:59:48 iwillig [~ivan@41.202.225.146] has joined #lisp 19:02:26 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@83.1.168.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:03:25 mathrick [~mathrick@83.1.168.198] has joined #lisp 19:06:48 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 19:07:14 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:08:29 -!- sellout1 is now known as sellout 19:10:38 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl15-225-71.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:11:11 -!- iwillig [~ivan@41.202.225.146] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:11:33 k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:12:07 -!- k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:13:19 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 19:13:19 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 19:13:19 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 19:15:48 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:16:40 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:17:41 -!- fusss [~fusss@58.171.128.247] has left #lisp 19:17:42 k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:18:16 old systems have the weirdest ideas about scrolling 19:18:36 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 19:18:58 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-195-88.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 19:20:40 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:46 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.64.211.191] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:21:01 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:21:41 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-211-191.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:56 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:22:59 pabst [~anonymous@208.74.177.139.static.etheric.net] has joined #lisp 19:23:40 kushal [~kdas@117.201.97.233] has joined #lisp 19:23:52 -!- kushal [~kdas@117.201.97.233] has quit [Changing host] 19:23:52 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 19:25:25 i found "Lisp Style and Design" at my university library 19:25:42 good book 19:26:04 fusss [~fusss@58.171.128.247] has joined #lisp 19:26:23 unfortunately, it's rare enough not to be available at all through amazon, abe, half, or ebay 19:26:40 the most recent book on lisp in my university's library is from 1991 :( 19:27:10 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:27:12 yeah, most of the lisp books in my library date from the 80's and 90's 19:27:22 but there are a fair number of them 19:27:34 and reading through some of them, they're still quite useful 19:28:04 though some parts are obviously out of date.. and almost none of them even mention CLOS 19:28:41 not to mention more recent developments in the lisp ecosystem 19:28:44 hello lispers! 19:29:22 -!- antgreen [~user@nat/redhat/x-clofwbwhodfazafv] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:29:31 hello my_clef 19:30:07 Is it required for packages to export :readers of condition slots? 19:30:33 mon_key: no. 19:30:41 Tekk_ [~danny@cpe-071-077-209-233.ec.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:30:50 (happy (day (valentines))) 19:30:51 -!- Tekk_ [~danny@cpe-071-077-209-233.ec.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 19:32:07 happy commercialization of love and affection as a commodity and capitalist product day to you as well! 19:32:36 happy S.A.D. to you as well 19:33:20 Xach: OK. b/c when I do `slime-describe-symbol' in packageA on a condition defined in packageB it reports the reader as internal to packageB. 19:35:17 mon_key: My answer might change if you elaborate on what "required" means. 19:35:32 mon_key: i.e. Required for what? 19:36:14 Xach: :) Sorry. To signal the PackageB condition from packageA. 19:36:47 any lib implementing delay/force? 19:36:48 E.g. right now i have the symbol of the condition exported but not its readers. 19:36:59 mon_key: No, still not required. Exporting changes how many characters you have to type when referring to a symbol. 19:37:11 mon_key: It doesn't really change anything else at a "required" level. 19:37:21 antgreen [~user@nat/redhat/x-lyhfoqfaozorujqh] has joined #lisp 19:37:32 It does convey information to people about what you expect them to use, but that's not enforced in any real sense. 19:37:56 You get to point at them and laugh if they use a symbol you intentionally left unexported, maybe. 19:38:00 And something breaks. 19:39:16 fusss: you really could just implement it yourself, no? 19:40:38 sykopomp: nih 19:42:10 -!- k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:42:37 fusss: clazy has symbols by those names. 19:42:44 bsod1 [~osa1@188.56.202.120] has joined #lisp 19:43:21 Xach: Not asking about requirements of package mechanics wrt encapsulation but about mechanics of condition readers across packages. I.e. assuming that packageB exports the condition symbol FOO-ERROR, if a handler in packageA wants to access the slot of a FOO-ERROR condition should packageB also export the symbol for the conditions slot reader as well? 19:44:23 mon_key: Yes. "Should" is a much better word than "required" in that question. 19:44:39 mon_key: if you want a user to have access to that symbol, you export it 19:44:51 Xach: thanks 19:45:08 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:45:15 fusss: I found that out via (ql:dist-wide-apropos "delay") 19:45:16 mon_key: a user can have access regardless, but exporting is about intention not enforcement 19:45:24 fusss: I wish! 19:45:31 *fusss* reading some really hardcore lisp thread in cll 19:45:36 eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 19:50:22 -!- fusss [~fusss@58.171.128.247] has left #lisp 19:50:35 adeht: I would think that wrt condition where the condition's symbol is exported it is a given that its readers should be made accessible as well? 19:51:22 mon_key: The readers might only be involved in displaying the condition in a nice way. 19:52:15 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:52:32 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.178.198] has quit [Quit: Offline] 19:53:10 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:53:34 If packageA exports simple BAR which signals a FOO-ERROR condition from packageB and packageC inherits BAR from packageA why should it become packageC's resposnibility to resolve FOO-ERROR's readers? 19:54:41 Why indeed. 19:55:05 Did someone suggest that when I wasn't looking? 19:56:20 Xach: No sir! I'm just wondering what _should_ I assume is kosher behaviour wrt exporting condition readers :) 19:56:43 mon_key: You should export what you expect someone might usefully use to decide what to do with the condition. 19:57:16 jikanter [~a@66.146.192.42] has joined #lisp 19:57:20 Xach: Thanks. I appreciate your input. 19:57:36 mon_key: for a contrived, you might have a unix-error condition that includes an errno slot, and someone might handle all unix-errors but use the errno to check for EAGAIN to decide whether they might retry. 19:57:41 for a contrived example, rather. 19:58:44 In that case, exporting the reader for the slot says "Here's some useful info for you" and not exporting might say "This is internal and off limits." 20:01:45 -!- Sayra [~ikke@173-18-37-78.client.mchsi.com] has left #lisp 20:02:02 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-87.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:03:13 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.178.198] has joined #lisp 20:05:27 is the the bnf for defstruct in the clhs correct? or am i misreading it? 20:05:30 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_defstr.htm 20:05:41 it say: name-and-options::= structure-name | (structure-name [[options]]) 20:05:42 -!- brodo [~brodo@p5B022CFC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: brodo] 20:05:54 but one of the examples has: (defstruct person (name 007 :type string)) 20:06:09 shouldn't the bnf for that be: name-and-options::= structure-name | structure-name (structure-name [[options]]) 20:06:26 you're not reading the BNF correctly 20:06:37 the (name 007 :type string) is a slot-description 20:06:50 Xach: OK. I guess this is where I have/had a stylistic confusion, I had assumed that condition datum were mostly a dynamic-scope kind of thing, e.g. in that they can steal control globally. 20:06:52 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.56.202.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:07:06 froydnj: ah.. ok 20:07:07 thanks 20:07:20 pattern: np 20:07:57 mon_key: if I expose a condition name then I tend to also want to expose the names of its slot accessors 20:08:34 adeht: What might be an example of wanting to maintain aspects of a condition as internal? 20:11:48 mon_key: I don't have a specific, non-contrived example right now 20:12:04 mon_key: I can imagine having certain textual information related to displaying the condition in the debugger not exported. 20:13:09 Xach: OK. presentation/view stuff versus control stuff. 20:13:26 adeht: Xach: Thanks for your help. 20:16:05 TeMPOraL [~user@188.146.96.183.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has joined #lisp 20:17:02 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:18:48 enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-76-233-179-123.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:45 maxigas [~user@dsl51B653F5.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 20:21:02 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-31-120.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:21:18 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-31-120.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:23:11 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-35-55-179.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:24:02 -!- mitre [~chatzilla@74.112.63.251] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:27:42 -!- mducharme-uni [82b366df@gateway/web/freenode/ip.130.179.102.223] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:28:23 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:29:21 gabnet [~gabnet@16.195.197-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 20:30:20 in the bnf for defstruct, what do the double square brackets mean? 20:30:23 as in: name-and-options::= structure-name | (structure-name [[options]]) 20:30:33 how do they differ from single square brackets? 20:30:38 -!- albino [~albino@69.12.222.214] has left #lisp 20:31:28 -!- maxigas [~user@dsl51B653F5.pool.t-online.hu] has left #lisp 20:31:41 <|3b|> clhs 1.4.1.2.1 20:31:42 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/01_daba.htm 20:31:50 *Xach* is specbot now 20:32:06 ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has joined #lisp 20:32:58 oops.. missed that somehow 20:33:07 thanks 20:34:17 rtoym: it's unable to open some file in c:/users/maxout.gnuplot 20:34:34 rtoym: any idea which knobs to work on to correct? 20:34:34 Xach: why the change? 20:34:56 mathrick: Too lucrative to say no. 20:35:14 heh 20:35:34 -!- ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has left #lisp 20:36:30 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@188.146.96.183.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has quit [Quit: bbl] 20:38:15 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:38:18 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 20:41:40 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:43:30 francogrex [~user@109.130.218.83] has joined #lisp 20:43:30 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 20:48:06 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.178.198] has quit [Quit: Offline] 20:48:40 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.202.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:48:56 -!- SuChek [~SQ@62-47-220-156.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:52:30 -!- osoleve [~andy@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:52:55 rasterba_ [~rasterbar@adsl-99-101-196-27.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:46 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756b3a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:15 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:42 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 20:56:07 -!- rasterba_ [~rasterbar@adsl-99-101-196-27.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:56:44 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 21:00:01 rtoym: got some nice plots on my display. 21:00:07 rtoym: so, it's AOK indeed. 21:00:58 Coercion [~Coercion@95.65.131.32] has joined #lisp 21:01:00 -!- Coercion [~Coercion@95.65.131.32] has left #lisp 21:02:17 ehu: Awesome! Sorry I didn't help out on your plotting issues, but you've worked them out. :-) 21:03:10 yea; ASau helped a bit too. 21:03:52 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A5D43.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:05:11 rtoym: but what's even greater: it's actually working better than I had even hoped! 21:06:23 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-31-120.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:06:38 gnu plot is awesome. 21:06:38 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-31-120.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:06:55 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-31-120.iburst.co.za] has left #lisp 21:07:13 ehu: Cool! 21:07:47 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.215.39] has joined #lisp 21:09:14 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-35-55-179.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:31 oudeis [~oudeis@173-13-187-217-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:25 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 21:13:45 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@173-13-187-217-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:15:15 simo163 [~quassel@85.136.15.136.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 21:15:30 -!- simo163 [~quassel@85.136.15.136.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:15:50 simo163 [~quassel@85.136.15.136.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 21:19:48 Sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 21:19:58 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-60-165.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:20:20 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip68-231-47-70.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:25:20 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-31-120.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:25:42 alama [~alama@a79-169-84-216.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 21:25:51 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-31-120.iburst.co.za] has left #lisp 21:27:54 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-195-88.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 21:29:02 -!- gabnet [~gabnet@16.195.197-77.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 21:29:11 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-195-88.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 21:29:59 -!- simo163 [~quassel@85.136.15.136.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:30:50 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.218.83] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:33:05 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has joined #lisp 21:34:03 urandom__ [~user@p548A31C2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:23 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:39:03 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:39:39 bsod1 [~osa1@188.56.180.46] has joined #lisp 21:43:21 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 21:44:22 silentbicycle [~scott@99-55-246-143.lightspeed.gdrpmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:52 is there a nice HTTP lisp lib, something for making REST clients in? 21:47:05 PuffTheMagic: drakma! 21:47:09 it's the best. 21:47:13 Drakma rocks 21:47:24 let me rephrase that. It's The Best. 21:47:34 in more than just CL 21:47:52 is it in quicklisp? 21:47:55 Drakma kicks the shit out of any other HTTP lib I encountered (seriously) 21:47:58 PuffTheMagic: yes, it is 21:47:59 definitely way better than any other http library (I can compare with ruby's uri-open and Net::HTTP) I've used. 21:48:06 nice 21:48:07 (ql:quickload 'drakma) 21:48:10 got it thanks 21:48:16 have fun (-: 21:48:40 thanks 21:48:58 *p_l|backup* doesn't know how he could tried to use MJPEG HTTP streaming with any other "simple" http libs out there, with Drakma I had to concentrate on actually using the data I got :D 21:51:23 What are some things that Drakma gets right that other libraries don't? 21:52:14 Hexstream: it actually supports basically all of HTTP 1.1. Which is usually omitted by "standard" libs out there till you actually need it and find out you have to download something extra 21:52:23 like chunked encoding, streaming etc. 21:52:26 for one, it comes with good defautls, but lets you customize almost all of the behavior 21:52:39 (redirect following links, for example) 21:52:40 BeniaminQ [~quassel@host-195-88-115-42.hypernet.biz.pl] has joined #lisp 21:52:47 Ok, so correctness and completeness. 21:52:57 Hexstream: and nice interface! 21:53:10 -!- BeniaminQ [~quassel@host-195-88-115-42.hypernet.biz.pl] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 21:53:29 oh yeah. the interface scales from "hello world" http requests up to p_l's MJPEG http streaming (: 21:53:40 Kays[PL] [4fa3c08b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.79.163.192.139] has joined #lisp 21:53:45 I often use wget.. 21:54:09 BeniaminQ [~quassel@host-195-88-115-42.hypernet.biz.pl] has joined #lisp 21:54:35 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:48 works straight off the command line 21:55:00 Blkt [~Blkt@dynamic-adsl-94-34-26-111.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 21:55:07 most of the "scripting" langs out there end up using libcurl at some point trying to support more functionality, but I'm not sure how well it works with stuff that doesn't fit "downloading" 21:55:47 I'm not sure wget is available on all platforms... And it's not Lisp. 21:55:52 -!- Landr [~vser@78-22-154-231.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:56:03 p_l|backup, What do you mean? 21:56:17 Drakma is portable basically everywhere you have CL and can provide it with a socket layer 21:56:26 -!- Kays[PL] [4fa3c08b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.79.163.192.139] has quit [Client Quit] 21:56:48 Younder: I haven't tested Curl's completeness in stuff like chunked encoding, streaming etc. 21:56:59 -!- antgreen [~user@nat/redhat/x-lyhfoqfaozorujqh] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:57:01 long-pull and so 21:57:24 superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.148] has joined #lisp 21:57:48 I see, lets write a tet suite. 21:57:56 test 21:58:10 Younder: nah, will do so when I'll need it 21:58:15 so far, I don't :( 21:58:21 lol 21:58:22 -!- Sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:58:23 s/:(/:)/ 22:00:10 though I'll admit that I'd welcome a full-time job that would include such stuff :) 22:00:46 p_l|backup, not so good on regeps are you. s/:\(/:\)/ 22:00:59 Younder: ah right 22:01:17 *p_l|backup* is getting sleepy, and got the most boring kind of web-related stuff to do 22:01:30 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:01:37 Can I bug someone to review some patches for Bordeaux threads so that ABCL running Hunchentoot via QuickLisp works/ 22:01:42 DOOMED to create EMAIL WEB FORMS FOREVER 22:01:56 poor sucker 22:02:02 http://slack.net/~evenson/abcl/bordeaux-threads-abcl-20101204a.diff 22:02:49 I'D LOVE TO ACTUALLY PROGRAM ANYTHING IN THIS THING! 22:02:56 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 22:02:56 easyE: I think I already applied that 22:02:58 *p_l|backup* works with a shitty e-commerce engine 22:03:23 Feburary QuickLisp doesn't work with BT-ABCL. 22:03:52 -!- jdz [~jdz@host45-44-dynamic.60-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:03:56 easyE: ok, I'll make a new release 22:04:02 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:04:04 next weekend, most probably 22:04:17 Which has at its root a problem on a symbol that was deprecated for abcl-0.24.0. 22:04:22 easyE, Take it up with Zach Beane 22:04:37 -!- setmeaway [setmeaway3@183.106.96.22] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:04:46 hi fe[nl]ix 22:04:50 I owe Zack a test implemntation of a theoretical quicklisp-patch. 22:05:00 hi Blkt :) 22:05:12 easyE, There should be a mailgroup for quicklisp 22:05:17 s/Zack/Zack/ 22:05:28 s/Zack/Zach/ 22:05:28 on commonlisp.net 22:05:54 I find that ABCL still needs ~4-5 patche to get major CL components running. 22:06:08 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 22:06:08 "running on quicklisp". 22:06:24 easyE / Younder: getting packages updated should be done via the quicklisp-projects github bug tracker. 22:06:56 *easyE* loves typeping (load "http://beta.quicklisp.org/quicklisp.lisp") into ABCL... Thanks, Zach! 22:07:04 After he is AWARE there is a bug.. 22:07:49 *easyE* is more of a mercurial fan. "But yeah," he adds "some sort of DAG to manag the releases would be grand with me.\ 22:08:06 mercurial is cool 22:08:07 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756b3a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:08:14 git is cool too. 22:08:23 Younder: Oh, you mean for the quicklisp bug, sorry, thought you meant for getting a new version of B-T included. 22:08:31 Maybe there is a bitorrent of DVCS emerging here... 22:09:21 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:12:23 -!- slash_ [~unknown@pD955EAE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:12:55 easyE, GIT is a bit of a overkill for most projects. If you wan't a distributed VCS try DARCS. 22:15:03 Good morning everyone! 22:15:24 I have a lot of respect for darcs, but I'd rather be coding in Lisp than Haskell when it breaks. 22:15:54 -!- hun [~user@91-65-90-50-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:17:09 milkpost_ [~milkpost@dhcpw81ffebee.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 22:17:20 "overkill"? 22:17:28 Has darcs completely overcome its performance disadvantage at this point? I've met a darcs comitter: he's a serious guy, but a lot of fun. 22:18:11 easyE: depends on the repo used 22:18:25 Surely there's some advantages to mercurial or darcs, but I don't see how not being 'overkill' is one of them. 22:18:29 a repo in new format is pretty fast, afaik, but you might met old repos (like XMonad...) 22:18:55 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw81ffebee.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:19:02 also, Git is not overkill... git is simplicity pushed to the max, thus baring certain details to naked eye 22:19:16 I was wondering if Younder could give any worse advice than he usually does.. 22:19:21 thanks for answering that question. 22:19:24 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:19:32 Heh! 22:20:02 -!- mega1 [~user@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:21:45 p_l|backup: git has very little to do with simplicity 22:21:49 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:21:57 mathrick: depends on how you look at it, I guess 22:22:16 it's simplicity the way not having electricity or running water is "simple" 22:22:38 *mathrick* is partial to bzr 22:22:47 I see it as a content-addressable storage on top of which someone built a DVCS 22:22:49 antifuchs: I'm wondering how come he's no longer banned 22:23:13 skalawag` [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:17 mathrick: He gives bad advice, but I think he means well, and he is basically harmless. 22:24:36 -!- guaqua [gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:24:41 -!- BeniaminQ [~quassel@host-195-88-115-42.hypernet.biz.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:24:54 mathrick: it happens sometimes... there are worse trolls. 22:25:05 ...so they end up taking up space in the ban list 22:25:11 hehe 22:25:39 krfs [~jonata@189-16-43-233.cte.net.br] has joined #lisp 22:26:28 -!- milkpost_ [~milkpost@dhcpw81ffebee.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:27:42 beach: yeah, but I'm constantly amazed just how consistently terrible his advice is 22:28:01 mathrick: Yes, I agree. 22:29:04 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:29:09 man, Genera is annoying to use 22:29:29 mathrick: How so? 22:29:44 [Honest question; I haven't used it myself] 22:30:27 -!- hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440254.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:30:31 beach: it's terribly unstable here (not really Genera's fault as such), and trying to use it on a keyboard without Meta mapped doesn't really help with the fact its UI is horribly unfamiliar 22:30:44 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:47 -!- benny [~benny@i577A1CBD.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:30:50 *mathrick* tries to type s-A and fails consistently 22:30:52 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-76-233-179-123.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: errands] 22:31:11 hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440254.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:32:07 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:32:18 beach: also the scrolling is all the horribly wacky ideas of the past 22:32:48 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:32:57 "press left mouse button while standing on your hands to scroll" 22:32:57 rasterba_ [~rasterbar@adsl-99-101-196-27.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:33:29 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:36:23 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.56.180.46] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:36:28 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 22:36:57 guaqua [gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 22:38:03 benny [~benny@i577A79FA.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 22:38:56 mathrick: Thanks for the summary. 22:39:30 *p_l|backup* notes that his PC keyboard has Control, Meta, Super and Hyper 22:39:45 csamuelson [~csamuelso@ec2-50-17-240-121.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 22:39:45 I don't have space for Compose, though :/ 22:39:50 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-164-38.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:42:14 there should be space 22:42:29 you have ctrl, alt, windows, menu, capslock to play with 22:42:29 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-92-21.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:42:52 foom: you just mentioned Control, Meta, Super, Hyper and CapsLock 22:43:05 (those are default mappings in X.Org, btw) 22:43:05 you don't need a capslock key 22:43:49 hmmm... well, technically capslock (which is the key labeled "ctrl" on my left) could be reused as compose... 22:44:41 second alt (aka AltGr) is already used for character input 22:46:23 -!- guaqua [gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:48:59 Demosthenes [~demo@71.16.32.77] has joined #lisp 22:50:00 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:49 guaqua [gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 22:51:50 Edward [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-35-219.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:52:19 sds [186730cd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.103.48.205] has joined #lisp 22:52:44 -!- sds is now known as Guest75377 22:52:58 ?msg 22:53:02 compmstr [~compmstr@adsl-074-185-008-197.sip.clt.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:18 Guest75377: ? 22:53:41 gozoner [~ebg@ebg-10004083621.jpl.nasa.gov] has joined #lisp 22:54:06 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:40 -!- guaqua [gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:58:12 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 -!- alama [~alama@a79-169-84-216.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: alama] 23:01:13 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 23:01:49 -!- gozoner [~ebg@ebg-10004083621.jpl.nasa.gov] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:02:03 gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.201.174] has joined #lisp 23:02:12 guaqua [gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 23:02:41 -!- rasterba_ [~rasterbar@adsl-99-101-196-27.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:03:18 -!- Guest75377 [186730cd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.103.48.205] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:04:46 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-195-88.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 23:05:08 beach: I managed to coax my keyboard into having both meta and super, which helps 23:05:10 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.84.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:05:23 but the window management remains terribly clumsy 23:06:44 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:07:28 -!- guaqua [gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:07:34 guaqua [gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 23:09:16 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:10:20 mathrick: I see. 23:10:35 *mathrick* learns about the Activities selector 23:11:10 -!- deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:12:06 beach: what I personally dislike, and what I also see present in McCLIM apps, is that the fact there are presentations basically makes all UI sort of a glorified Lisp inspector, which is not necessarily good UI 23:12:21 the Listener is a dangerous tool I think 23:12:30 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:12:54 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A31C2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:13:17 -!- guaqua [gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:13:27 -!- ASau [~user@95-26-230-11.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: reboot] 23:14:00 mathrick: Do you think that is an intrinsic feature, or just a result of Lisp programmers writing the applications? 23:14:38 beach: I think it's a result of the Listener being too powerful and too easy to use when you're already in it 23:14:38 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has left #lisp 23:14:56 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 23:15:03 there's way too much text in all kinds of places, all changing and reacting to whatever I do 23:15:21 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:26 that's helpful, but it leads to the creation of hundreds of states, which is overwhelming 23:15:37 and makes for a very busy UI 23:16:39 beach: I think making the listener hidden by default, and having all hint typeouts go to a status bar would force a greater internal discipline already 23:17:12 so you'd have to summon the listener, sort of like how you do it with M-x in emacs 23:17:47 adding more modern UI metaphors would probably help as well 23:17:52 mathrick: Yeah, that's basically why I wrote ESA. 23:18:04 but I still dislike the fact basically every CLIM app is written around the listener 23:18:23 it's a total UI copout 23:19:16 mathrick: Well, so are the "modern UI metaphors" usually. 23:19:37 -!- ch077179 [~urs@adsl-89-217-130-206.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 23:19:39 beach: yes, but they're less all-powerful, which helps :) 23:20:25 basically, if the primary interface for your app is little more than a fancy REPL, it's a stretch to say your app has a UI 23:22:03 beach: I want a LispOS that'd be natural to use for people who don't think of their system as a huge REPL. Presentations and input types are *terrific* for this purpose. It's like the eyedropper tool from Photoshop, except applied to everything you can point to on the screen, so that's great 23:22:22 I hear (or rather "read") what you are saying, and it doesn't sound quite like the entire truth, but I haven't thought it through enough to have something intelligent to say. 23:22:23 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:22:32 but having the Listener be the be-all-end-all of the UI, and spam you with a constant stream of text is really bad 23:22:35 -!- jikanter [~a@66.146.192.42] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:22:40 beach: O 23:22:42 bah 23:23:22 pnq [~nick@ACA24E6E.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 23:23:22 beach: I'm basically saying that having a nice typed GUI toolkit doesn't remove the need for real UI design :) 23:23:44 That sounds correct! :) 23:23:54 and that while extensibility, hackability, and the _option_ to reach for a listener are great, it shouldn't be the frontline UI 23:25:05 ... which is why I wrote ESA. 23:25:11 beach: of course it's hard to judge where it'd be if symbolics survived and genera evolved along with the rest of UI world. It's not like Xt is all that much better 23:25:44 mathrick: Yes, good UI design is a recent discipline. 23:25:45 beach: mhm, I must admit I haven't actually seen ESA in action. I didn't think something having "emacs" in its name would mean *less* listener visibility :) 23:26:05 -!- compmstr [~compmstr@adsl-074-185-008-197.sip.clt.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:26:23 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 23:26:25 hmm, or maybe I have, as I have ran Climacs at some point 23:26:31 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:26:36 but I had poor results trying to get it to do anything useful 23:28:25 leveldoc [~user@12.197.94.250] has joined #lisp 23:28:52 okay, so the Genera equivalent of single Alt-Tab is F3-S 23:30:39 ASau [~user@95-26-230-11.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 23:32:26 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:32:55 -!- leveldoc [~user@12.197.94.250] has quit [Client Quit] 23:33:13 beach: is there any code that uses CLIM3 yet? 23:34:52 -!- superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.148] has quit [Quit: superflit] 23:35:09 mathrick: Only tiny experiments. It is not generally usable. 23:35:27 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 23:36:33 beach: mhm, I'd like to have some "how could we make this work as UI while keeping the benefits of CLIM?" thinking go into the whole thing, which'd probably need to be reflect at least somewhat on the spec level 23:37:32 I also want CLIM that can be sensibly built on top of an existing toolkit used as a substrate (aka. GTK+ does the drawing) 23:38:48 mathrick: So like kind of making sure UI copout is part of the spec? 23:39:00 huh? 23:39:05 no, quite the opposite 23:39:25 making sure the spec is written so that real, designed UIs can be built with it 23:40:24 mathrick: Like the ones usually build with GTK, etc? 23:41:38 pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:ddfc] has joined #lisp 23:42:42 beach: I dunno. Writing *another* toolkit today is a terrible idea, however you look at it. A full toolkit is extremely expensive to write, even more expensive to maintain, and has a huge cloud of support infrastructure built around it it needs to be usable for anything but eagle-eyed, healthy US citizens 23:43:10 you can have presentations and whatever else you want; if the toolkit doesn't let me write Japanese, it's useless 23:43:38 and if it doesn't support the existing accessibility tools, it's useless for a huge number of people who need those tools 23:44:50 beach: actually, there's just been a discussion on lisspit: http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/fh99v/would_it_be_possible_write_an_entire_os_in_lisp/c1gelry 23:44:51 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:45:45 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 23:46:06 -!- zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:46:38 beach: a LispOS today simply has to plan for assimilation of whatever can be assimilated of the existing tools, unless you're happy writing something that will forever be a niche toy for you and both of your friends 23:46:55 mathrick: It sounds like you are *way* more qualified than I am to write a successor to CLIM II. I think I'll still continue with my tiny experiments, whether they will be accessible to those huge numbers of people or not. That way you can write the Cliki page the way you want it. 23:47:14 beach: *sigh*, I'm not trying to say you're doing it wrong 23:48:03 I'm just saying that the number of things you have to have for people even to consider looking your way these days is so staggeringly huge you just can't reasonably write it all from scratch 23:48:26 zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:48:28 mathrick: If I cared whether people were looking my way or not, I would not be useing Lisp. 23:48:51 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:18 beach: interesting 23:50:39 beach: for me LispOS is something I'd actually want to use on my machine one day. And that's the perspective I'm looking at it from 23:51:42 and I happen to know with certainty that I won't be able to reimplement all the video codecs and input methods and accessibility tools myself 23:52:19 I've actually worked on GTK+ and GStreamer, so I'm painfully aware just how hard these things are to get going 23:52:26 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:36 beach: interesting was re: whether ui was intrinsic or result of individuals, sorry i was scrolled back. 23:53:40 beach: what is ESA? 23:53:49 Emacs-Style Applications 23:54:03 a set of CLIM components for emacs-like apps 23:54:08 which beach wrote :) 23:54:16 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-195-88.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 23:54:17 cool 23:54:30 derrida: A library that replaces (using existing CLIM II protocols) the default command processor of CLIM II by something that behaves more like Emacs. 23:55:19 beach: can you use it to poke existing apps into behaving more like emacs, or do you have to use ESA to be that? 23:55:58 err 23:56:04 *be written with ESA in mind 23:56:51 mathrick: Existing apps that are written using existing CLIM protocols (like define-command, etc) should work with ESA as long as you write the command tables that define the keystroke sequences to use. 23:57:50 beach: right, but you still need to port them (ie. change the source, at least a bit) for that, right? You can't just ESA-ify an app without it being aware of that? 23:57:51 mathrick: Let's get one thing straight. I am a researcher. My job is to try to figure out how to do things right, not how to make the largest number of people use what I do. If in that learning process I can publish a paper, that's great, because that's how knowledge is propagated. 23:58:27 mathrick: The application should not need to be modified. 23:58:32 ah, cool