00:00:37 nm, thats a cffi/lw issue 00:00:40 PuffTheMagic: cffi:with-pointer-to-vector-data which expands to fli:with-dynamic-lisp-array-pointer 00:01:08 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-217-54.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:01:53 csamuelson [~csamuelso@adsl-240-246-114.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:53 -!- ch077179 [~urs@adsl-89-217-130-206.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 00:03:58 beach: I didn't come across that kind of stuff when looking at the sources.. I'll take a deeper look. Actually I was hoping I overlooked something in the docs :-/ 00:06:16 ale`: It is entirely possible that it is not documented because it is something a normal application wouldn't do. CLX itself must do it though, because an ID comes on the wire, and an event must be constructed that contains the corresponding window object. 00:07:43 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 00:08:14 NihilistDandy [~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:10:35 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:12:02 cheez [~Adium@206-248-177-146.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 00:14:23 beach: uhm, I'll try to take a look at the code in handler-function and event-case and see how they work 00:15:08 I guess my lisp-fu will improve in the process ^^; 00:15:30 ale`: I think that is too late in the process, but I haven't looked myself. 00:15:49 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 00:16:09 sorry for my ignorance here, but was is a ub8 array? 00:16:17 milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 00:16:22 (array (unsigned-byte 8) *) 00:17:25 or an array of unemployment-benefit forms 8? 00:18:11 Heh! 00:20:32 so who maintains cffi? 00:21:04 ale`: how about (xlib::lookup-window disply id)? 00:22:11 PuffTheMagic: luis and I 00:22:16 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2A21C.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:22:29 I was going to suggest lookup-resource-id, but stassats probably looked a bit closes. 00:22:44 stassats: now I'm feeling stupid 00:22:56 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:23:28 fe[nl]ix, so what am I supposed to say to the lw mailing list when it appears to be a cffi bug 00:23:34 ale`: does it work? 00:24:22 because i only did apropos 00:24:25 APROPOS 00:25:03 PuffTheMagic: say something nice 00:25:28 stassats: it does work :-) 00:25:47 fe[nl]ix pasted "FLI test" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/119620 00:25:58 PuffTheMagic: try that ^ 00:26:11 surely, there must be something exported 00:27:08 -!- ilowhy [~ilowhy@183.83.53.180] has quit [Quit: ilowhy] 00:27:17 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:27:38 Error: #(119 147 14 32) cannot be converted to foreign type "Statically allocated (LISP-ARRAY NIL)". 00:27:56 ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has joined #lisp 00:27:58 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip68-231-47-70.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:28:07 PuffTheMagic: there's your problem 00:28:11 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe5ddc00-120.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: RaceCondition] 00:29:17 they must have changed fli:with-dynamic-lisp-array-pointer to only accept static arrays 00:29:21 instead of accepting regular arrays and pinning them 00:30:16 RaceCondition [~erik@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe5ddc00-120.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 00:31:43 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93-86-244-138.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:32:00 stassats: I couldn't see any exported function that does the job.. You don't want to hear what I was doing to get a window object some days ago :-) 00:33:08 doing things backwards is fun 00:34:39 everyone can do straightforward stuff, a true master should be able to do the same thing in many different ways, half of which are crazy 00:35:09 whats crazy? 00:35:23 -!- rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:36:06 stassats: I was walking the X window tree to find a window with a given ID. But that was useful eventually, as I also got functions to find a window given its class or whatever predicate 00:37:10 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 00:37:34 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@83.101.33.18] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:41:51 Who has the source of the CLX manual? Is it gilberth? 00:42:11 -!- gio123 [c1899c9c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.137.156.156] has left #lisp 00:44:54 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe5ddc00-120.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: RaceCondition] 00:46:10 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.208.177] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 00:46:37 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:50:08 hi fe[nl]ix 00:51:56 hi Blkt 01:01:37 -!- fmu is now known as ronpaul 01:02:51 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 01:03:00 -!- Soulman [~knute@166.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 01:08:24 Man, IOLib seems to take forever to load. 01:09:05 -!- zmv [~daniel@c934a93a.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:09:25 :) 01:11:22 fe[nl]ix: That's not really a criticism, BTW. I love IOLib, and I feel like if I bothered to see what was going on, there's something I could fix on my end. 01:12:24 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:13:25 sellout: what is there to fix ? CCL loads an already compiled iolib in just a fews seconds here 01:13:38 on a 5-year-old machine 01:13:49 gz` [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 01:14:20 fe[nl]ix: Exactly  I don't know what's happening. I measure this in minutes. 01:14:22 gadek [~konrad@62.121.148.46] has joined #lisp 01:14:32 oh, it's got ipv6 sockets. sweet. 01:14:42 thanks, fe[nl]ix. 01:14:50 ^_^ 01:15:23 I thought there was no usable socket library with ipv6 support. 01:15:30 Dunno why. 01:15:33 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-77-24.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:52 sellout: C-c C-c and paste the backtrace 01:18:13 You know what I think it might be? Using the ASDF source-registry stuff with too many :tree entries. 01:18:43 ahh 01:18:47 bad bad bad 01:18:50 I normally quickload, so I don't see any output, but I just loaded it via ASDF, and it seemed to take a while to find each system for the dependencies. 01:19:01 :tree is a very bad idea 01:19:54 symlinks into one central-registry for you is much saner 01:19:57 fe[nl]ix: Agreed  I want to do this: (:directory (:home #p";Documents;Lisp;*;")), but that doesn't work. 01:20:40 and it's not like you add new libraries very often, so even doing it manually is not much of a time loss 01:22:16 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:24:45 hey folks, I have slime running on my emacs with sbcl, it works fine, but typing , doesn't place me in the minibuffer 01:25:01 I think I'm close to getting this to work, but I'm missing the comma bit 01:25:47 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 01:26:04 this is what I have in my init.el concerning slime: http://paste.lisp.org/display/119621 01:26:12 rien: What is your SLIME prompt? 01:26:19 beach: * 01:26:26 I was expecting CL-USER> 01:26:43 Yes, you should have CL-USER> 01:27:00 rien: Sounds like you're in the *inferior-lisp* buffer. 01:27:15 rien: not *slime-repl * 01:27:16 sellout: yeah I think I am. where should I be? 01:27:27 so instead of M-x slime what should I do? 01:27:39 there's no M-x slime-repl 01:27:58 rien: have you got the repl buffer open? 01:28:05 rien: tried switching over to it? 01:28:07 That's the right thing to do  and you're loading slime-fancy, so I'm not quite sure what's wrong  anything in the *Messages* buffer? 01:28:19 rien: remove (require 'slime-autoloads) 01:28:21 please 01:29:03 stassats: why ? 01:29:19 because it would load what rien wants to load 01:29:21 antoszka: I don't have that buffer 01:29:32 stassats: trying it now 01:29:39 but leave the slime-setup with slime-fancy in there? 01:29:45 rien: Yes. 01:29:46 that's right 01:30:26 now I have: Symbol's value as variable is void: slime-fancy 01:30:28 when I load emacs 01:30:54 you overremoved something 01:31:13 that was the only line I removed, I swear :S 01:31:35 hi :) The Problem: (Fedora 14 working env + clean-install (got under VM), sbcl 1.0.40-1) trying to execute (asdf-install:install 'cl-html-parse) but *after* it has downloaded & extracted the sources it says 'debugger invoked on ASDF:MISSING-COMPONENT in thread ...blabla... component "cl-html-parse" not found'. What is going on? 01:31:41 when I add that back, it works again 01:32:38 you mean, it doesn't work again? 01:32:38 I needed to see how one of you guys have it in your init.el 01:32:49 gadek: Try using quicklisp instead of asdf-install. 01:32:57 stassats: I mean emacs opens without complaining, but M-x slime gives me the * prompt 01:33:58 is M-x slime what you use to get into the repl? 01:34:01 your .emacs should look exactly like pasted, except for slime-autoloads line 01:34:08 rien: yes 01:34:17 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 01:34:33 when I do it it leaves me in the *inferior-lisp* buffer 01:34:39 if you get any errors, that means it's not what you showed us, or your using some ancient slime 01:34:45 rien: that's because of autoloads 01:35:10 I can disable autoloads but then I'll have to not have slime-fancy being loaded by slime-setup 01:35:24 read what i said above 01:35:24 I don't get any errors 01:35:49 hmm 01:36:18 davazp [~user@15.Red-83-57-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:38:36 beach: well, kinda asdf-install sucks because quicklisp worked like a charm (well it seems it worked, will do tests in a moment)... thanks! 01:39:21 gadek: Sure, no problem. 01:41:54 -!- alama [~alama@a79-169-87-41.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: alama] 01:42:06 rien: any progress? 01:42:27 stassats: no :( I'm trying to find people's init.el under version control to see how they have it 01:42:37 i've just told you! 01:42:47 *stassats* is going to snap 01:43:09 stassats: Calm down! Be Zen! 01:43:16 stassats: what you told me doesn't work 01:43:30 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.253.154.71] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 01:43:48 stassats: you said it should be just like what I pasted but without the autoloads line. that doesn't work 01:43:50 if somebody else will tell you the same thing, it wouldn't start working magically 01:44:08 where did you get emacs? 01:44:11 err, slime 01:44:32 and when 01:44:48 stassats: from el-get 01:45:01 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has left #lisp 01:45:35 Try 01:45:37 i don't know what it is, and what it's supposed to do, hence i blame it for screwing slime 01:45:49 i can only help if you a recent slime from CVS 01:45:59 er, rien Try using quicklisp instead of cl-get. 01:46:16 quicklisp works too 01:47:29 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-168-190.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:47:58 fe[nl]ix: and regarding slime-autoloads, one shouldn't load slime-autoloads and slime at the same time 01:48:02 Polda-merto-jaya [~dexter666@125.165.186.80] has joined #lisp 01:48:08 stassats: ok, I can get the latest slime from CVS 01:48:23 fe[nl]ix: a) it defeats the purpose of slime-autoloads b) it breaks slime-setup 01:49:06 and i've seen this done many times, perhaps slime-autoloads should be more bullet-proof when slime is already loaded 01:49:20 Emacs gurus: I'm looking for a way to open a set of buffers whenever emacs opens, thusly: http://emberapp.com/jhenahan/images/emacs 01:49:28 but i think helmut wouldn't like it, because it's friendly 01:49:39 NihilistDandy: emacs gurus are residing in #emacs 01:49:44 Ah, true 01:49:52 I just like my Lispers :D 01:50:13 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-153-177.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:50:28 rien: Try using quicklisp instead of getting SLIME from CVS. 01:51:13 beach: I understand that advice, but I wanted to learn how to configure this by myself 01:51:22 beach: once I know how to do it I might use quicklisp 01:51:29 NihilistDandy: i can only suggest not closing emacs, thus solving the problem of opening only once, by hand 01:52:04 stassats: Yeah, I was just gonna screen it and detach when I'm not using it, but I figured I'd ask around 01:53:32 if you want to start slime each time emacs is loaded, just put (slime) in your .emacs 01:53:56 stassats: I downloaded the CVS version and it works now :)) 01:53:56 stassats: you da man 01:55:37 that's what it should do, good 01:56:03 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:56:08 stassats++ 01:56:17 ,stassats++ 01:56:23 oh we don't have it :) 01:56:37 rien: Wrong channel, here we use INCF ;) 01:56:38 well, that's disgraceful, i'll take only (incf stassats) 01:56:50 (incf stassats) 01:56:53 ,(incf stassats) 01:57:01 I've no clue 01:57:13 we don't have this, whatever it might be (thankfully) 01:57:19 hahaha 01:57:43 stassats: It's a whuffie tracker. 01:58:17 is that an euphemism for "karma"? 01:58:24 -!- carlocci 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host closed the connection] 04:04:49 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 04:05:06 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.92.253] has joined #lisp 04:06:24 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: night] 04:12:27 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 04:13:25 -!- illumina` [~user@pool-71-114-7-169.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:14:35 illumina` [~user@pool-71-114-7-169.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:14:55 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.84.38] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:18:58 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.84.230] has joined #lisp 04:19:27 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 04:19:37 All right, actual Lisp question this time. Is there a way to start SLIME in a particular directory, without that setting applying to other buffers? 04:19:54 pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 04:20:09 Obviously, I can ,cd when it starts, but I do so love automation 04:20:12 oconnore [~eric@ip68-230-164-105.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:21:13 arpreplay [~arpreplay@190.178.20.36] has joined #lisp 04:21:24 -!- arpreplay [~arpreplay@190.178.20.36] has quit [Client Quit] 04:22:26 Usually, they inherit their current directory from default-directory, and this one is the buffer file directory when th buffer has a file. 04:22:53 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:23:26 Hmm 04:24:51 (defun start-home () (interactive) (let ((default-directory "~")) (slime))) 04:25:06 But perhaps the directory of slime is irrelevant, for the working directory of the inferior lisp process. 04:25:19 Also, a fair point 04:25:23 *-, 04:25:49 I may just be able to edit my .sbclrc 04:25:51 Thanks, stassats 04:26:43 What I do usually, is to write a little lisp.sh script for each project, and use it as inferior-lisp-program. So I can set up directories, character encodings, dependencies, etc, when launching the actual cl implementation used by the project. 04:27:17 pjb: That's actually not a bad idea 04:27:18 C-u M-x slime RET ~/project/xyz/lisp.sh RET 04:28:26 I may do that in the future, but for the moment stassats' solution will do nicely :D 04:28:39 Great. 04:29:17 If there were karma on this channel, you'd both be getting some :D 04:29:23 gonzojive_ [~red@c-67-188-2-210.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:33:59 Vicfred [~Vicfred@201.102.93.119] has joined #lisp 04:35:39 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 04:38:32 ilowhy_ [~ilowhy@183.83.53.180] has joined #lisp 04:38:37 csamuelson [znc@ec2-50-17-240-121.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 04:43:16 -!- illumina` [~user@pool-71-114-7-169.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:43:57 -!- timack [~tim@142.177.8.98] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:44:20 illumina` [~user@pool-71-114-7-169.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:45:44 -!- davazp [~user@15.Red-83-57-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:52:27 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:57:09 -!- csamuelson [znc@ec2-50-17-240-121.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 04:57:40 csamuelson [znc@ec2-50-17-240-121.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 05:00:26 -!- csamuelson [znc@ec2-50-17-240-121.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has left #lisp 05:10:05 beach: still around? 05:13:44 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:14:05 slyrus: Yep. 05:14:55 howdy. I was going to ping you about affine transformations earlier, then I got distracted trying to figure out why my quadratic interpolation is busted 05:15:00 chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 05:15:07 (and with skiing -- last day though :( ) 05:15:40 slyrus: ping away! 05:18:42 -!- vilsonvieira [~vilson@189.26.151.203.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 05:19:34 I think it will have to wait until tomorrow :) 05:20:05 I think we need some sort of viewport like thing that associates a transformation with an image 05:20:07 That's fine. I'll be busy in the morning here, though. 05:20:33 at least the core affine xfrm routine works (with nearest neighbor anyway -- still not sure why quadratic is hosed) 05:20:54 the initial affine xfrm stuff is checked in if you want to take a look 05:21:06 OK. 05:26:16 -!- kmwallio [~kmwallio@host113-70.brownlie.fit.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:31:34 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@201.102.93.119] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:34:41 nikodemus_ [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 05:36:39 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-188-224.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 05:43:45 -!- jleija [~jleija@c-98-199-38-40.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:47:21 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 05:47:21 -!- xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:47:33 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 05:52:23 *stassats* finally decides to take a crack at WInspector 05:53:01 which is like WDired, but for editing objects 05:53:38 -!- Adlai` [~adlai@46-116-82-214.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:56:48 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [] 05:59:58 milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 06:00:16 pretty much the most appropriate music video to pay 1/2 your attention to while coding lisp (flash, video) http://tinyurl.com/3xymd4m 06:00:35 -!- adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 06:11:41 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sbahra] 06:14:26 oudeis [~oudeis@h-72-244-170-98.lsanca54.static.covad.net] has joined #lisp 06:18:20 -!- coldnew [~coldnew@ymu041-045.ym.edu.tw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:19:01 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:21:48 gaxar77 [~gaxar77@ool-4574b695.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 06:27:35 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.253.154.71] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 06:29:05 tronador_ [~guille@190.253.154.71] has joined #lisp 06:33:39 rasterbar [~rasterbar@99-113-184-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:33:46 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@99-113-184-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 06:33:46 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 06:36:14 Quadrescence: you're crazy. 06:36:31 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:39:58 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 06:41:20 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.208.177] has joined #lisp 06:41:20 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.208.177] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:41:21 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 06:51:52 huangho [~vitor@201-35-144-93.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 06:52:20 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@h-72-244-170-98.lsanca54.static.covad.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 06:52:26 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 06:53:13 Hello! 06:53:20 hello huangho 06:53:34 is there a way to make getchar() not to move the cursor to the bottom line? 06:53:59 huangho: Wrong channel? 06:54:11 hahahah 06:54:14 sorry 06:58:05 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:03:16 ch077179 [~urs@adsl-89-217-130-206.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 07:07:41 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:09:18 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@207.189.195.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:11:05 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:12:40 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:14:53 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 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joined #lisp 08:34:05 -!- ale` [~user@109.255.54.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:34:53 -!- super` [~super_@pool-173-65-48-189.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:37:08 -!- NihilistDandy [~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:37:19 srid [~srid@S0106001d7e1acafc.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 08:38:29 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:39:28 -!- gaxar77 [~gaxar77@ool-4574b695.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 08:39:43 NihilistDandy [~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:39:45 *deepfire* slowly refactors desire's internal git API for policy support and general goodness 08:41:07 It's nice to be able to hack in 40 minute installments, during train commutes, when you'd otherwise wouldn't be able to do anything on work days.. 08:45:14 -!- NihilistDandy [~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bed] 08:45:19 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has joined #lisp 09:52:13 RaceCondition [~erik@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe5ddc00-120.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 09:56:43 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:57:15 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 10:07:56 myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 10:11:30 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 10:11:43 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 10:17:11 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.56.255.214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:19:26 beach` [~user@116.118.7.35] has joined #lisp 10:19:39 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 10:20:34 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:20:53 -!- beach [~user@116.118.4.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:21:06 SpitfireWP_ [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 10:22:29 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:23:30 -!- SpitfireWP_ is now known as SpitfireWP 10:24:08 -!- beach` is now known as beach 10:25:18 Blkt [~Blkt@dynamic-adsl-94-34-26-111.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 10:27:10 Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-121-90.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:27:47 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has left #lisp 10:29:49 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:31:27 -!- M-sprite [~M-sprite@60.183.247.16] has quit [Quit: I need to code or sleep now .] 10:35:46 deepfire: Indeed it is, i have 2 60min commutes everyday 10:35:51 by train 10:36:22 mega1 [~user@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 10:37:36 -!- ignas_ [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:39:52 gonzojive_ [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:41:29 M-sprite [~M-sprite@60.183.247.16] has joined #lisp 10:46:12 hun [~user@91-65-90-50-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 10:46:40 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 10:49:18 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@83.101.33.18] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:49:42 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 10:52:18 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe5ddc00-120.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: RaceCondition] 10:55:21 Seems like external execution is the critical hurdle on desire's portability. 10:55:58 I've got rid of the shell bootstrap and opted for .lisp one, ala quicklisp. 10:56:20 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:09:30 Yuuhi [benni@p5483C0D8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:09:30 colbseton [~colbseton@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-54-252.w83-113.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:11:13 littlerue [~horse@118.82.154.61] has joined #lisp 11:11:16 can someone here 11:11:28 who has a pure heart, tell me what 'swank' is? 11:11:43 hi fe[nl]ix 11:11:50 good day everyone 11:12:01 littlerue, I'm not sure my heart is pure enough, but swank is the Lisp-side part of slime 11:12:48 littlerue, it's the "server" side, responding to the emacs's "client" side (which is actuall called "slime") 11:12:53 deepfire: for someone who doesnt know lisp or slime or swank, could you explain a bit further? im just a ruby programmer who konws about REPLs, and someone mentioned implementing swank for Ruby. What would this mean? how is swank different to just a normal repl? 11:13:50 littlerue, Slime uses a protocol for driving a remote lisp 11:14:54 littlerue, that protocol has messages which use terms like "frame", "evaluate", "print", "continue execution", "who calls" etc 11:15:39 littlerue, you would have to write a ruby server which talks this "slime protocol" 11:16:25 littlerue, unfortunately, this is as far as my knowledge of the matter goes 11:16:26 what's the advantage of something like swank? what does it enable me to do? 11:16:36 what's the use-case? 11:17:27 littlerue, well, you get a rather integrated environment which isn't confined to one machine 11:18:10 littlerue, think intellisense, but which actually works, and you can control remote instances 11:18:32 Well, it will actually work if your language implementation supports it well enough. 11:18:37 It just happens that Lisp does. 11:18:46 It just happens that Lisp implementations do. 11:19:10 sweet 11:19:24 so it's pretty much a REPL that gets its input from a remote client? 11:19:26 Source locations, stack frame access, cross-reference, stepping, incremental compilation. 11:19:53 littlerue, well, a REPL, as typically envisioned, has a lot less of the "integrated" feel. 11:20:24 littlerue, you have to tap into the language implementation's internals to get the integration. 11:20:36 so it's almost a debugger 11:20:37 ? 11:20:44 a remote debugger/repl ? 11:20:48 littlerue, the "slime protocol" is just a standartised way of exposing these internals for emacs. 11:21:08 littlerue, it's not "almost", it _is_ a remote debugger protocol 11:21:15 ah :) 11:21:19 littlerue, think GDB RSP for high-level languages 11:21:38 sweet 11:21:42 thnks 11:22:29 littlerue, slime is actually an attempt to partially recreate the development experience of the ancient Lisp Machines 11:22:47 littlerue, they were like science fiction in their days 11:23:12 ch077179 [~urs@adsl-89-217-130-206.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 11:24:40 -!- ilowhy_ [~ilowhy@183.83.53.180] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:24:46 but slime obviously isn't used for 'remote debugging' most of the time tho right? 11:24:47 tell me how 11:24:49 using slime 11:24:57 changes the development experience? 11:25:28 littlerue, that obviously depends on what is your baseline : -) 11:25:53 ilowhy_ [~ilowhy@183.83.53.180] has joined #lisp 11:26:49 littlerue, the goal of slime is to provide maximum integration between Emacs and your language implementation (most importantly - Lisp) 11:27:29 littlerue, without knowing what kind of integration you're currently getting, there's no way I can answer your question 11:28:34 I don't do Ruby, so I wouldn't know, etc 11:29:45 deepfire: say, python development 11:29:52 deepfire: or C development 11:30:24 (as the baseline) 11:31:40 I can tell you what Slime provides for a Lisp user: class browsers, data inspectors, complete cross-reference (who-calls, who-references, who-macroexpands, who-called), source location, incremental recompilation (you've edited a function definition, and you can hit a key and send the updated definition to the implementation) 11:31:40 -!- xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:32:21 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:32:30 so this all happens while the programming is actually running? 11:32:34 program* 11:32:36 In-frame evaluation, partial recompilation with different optimisation settings (say, more debug) 11:32:48 littlerue, actually running and debugging == same time in Lis 11:32:50 Lisp 11:33:04 It's specified within the language 11:33:11 and the same as actually just 'coding' right? 11:33:16 like just the process of writing lisp code 11:33:17 The compiler is standartised into the language. 11:33:19 automatically entails running it 11:33:22 and debugging it? 11:33:24 littlerue, right 11:33:28 that's crazy 11:33:33 pretty awesome 11:33:45 You've got the same in Ruby, with irb. 11:34:04 Well, half-assed, but still. 11:34:07 irb is just a plain repl 11:34:15 coldnew [~coldnew@ymu041-045.ym.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 11:34:24 ppl typically dont have irb running continuously as they're developing 11:34:35 I did. 11:34:41 when I had to write ruby code. 11:34:51 But then, I'm a lisper... 11:35:03 pjb: do u think it would be possible to build sth like slime for ruby? 11:35:06 littlerue, the Lisper mantra is "the whole language is always available" 11:35:20 Well, one of them, anyway. 11:35:38 Run-time, compile-time, debug-time, edit-time. 11:36:01 parse-time (this one is also separate in CL) : -) 11:36:04 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 11:36:10 littlerue: IIRC, the debugger in irb is not good enough. You might have to deal with the implementation itself. But otherwise, it's perfectly conceivable to implement a swank for ruby. There are swanks for other languages than CL. 11:38:03 littlerue: the question is rather whether it is worthwhile to do. Why not just use Common Lisp? 11:38:20 pjb, hey, let's keep the propaganda subtle! : -) 11:38:28 pjb: ruby has burned itself on my heart 11:38:55 littlerue, do you know, btw, what Matz said about Ruby's heritage? 11:39:11 -!- coldnew [~coldnew@ymu041-045.ym.edu.tw] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:39:15 deepfire: tell me :) 11:39:40 Let me give you an exactl link.. 11:40:45 http://blade.nagaokaut.ac.jp/cgi-bin/scat.rb/ruby/ruby-talk/179642 11:40:53 i know that matz loves lisp 11:40:57 and he also loves smalltalk 11:41:02 so ruby has echoes of both 11:41:10 (with some of the practicality of perl thrown in) 11:41:40 deepfire: matzlisp, hehe, very nice 11:42:35 What's nice about ruby? (Honest question, i don't know it very well) 11:42:36 i do intend to learn lisp one day 11:42:54 littlerue: today is a good day. 11:43:10 drdo: the only thing that it has not broken, is that everything's an expression. So you can put parens around everything 11:43:11 schme: when i work my way through sicp i'll get into it 11:43:33 pjb: I hate languages that have that retarded separation 11:43:55 drdo: well, it has very flexible syntax, so you can bend the language to make very nice looking DSLs 11:43:58 pjb: But still, what's nice about ruby compared to CL? 11:44:10 littlerue: sicp is a bit more scheme. 11:44:14 drdo: i dont think you're going to get a positive answer from pjb somehow:) 11:44:33 littlerue: What do you mean with "very flexible syntax" ? 11:44:36 read-macros? 11:44:42 drdo: let me show you 11:44:49 drdo: nothing. Compared to Lisp, what do you expect? 11:45:07 pjb: Well, since apparently the author knew and enjoyed CL 11:45:08 pjb, honesty 11:45:24 drdo: well, 'popularity', then. 11:45:34 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:45:35 It doesn't make much sense in my head to develop a language that doesn't improve on at least some aspect 11:45:52 huh. that happens all the time. 11:46:03 pjb, it's got batteries, at the very least 11:46:04 Well, popularity was a goal. I guess he succeeded, . 11:46:29 That's not really a language feature 11:46:39 drdo, it's an ecosystem feature 11:46:56 It's pointless to compare languages while ignoring ecosystems. 11:47:04 No, it's not 11:47:25 drdo: this is one of ruby's testing libraries: https://gist.github.com/824621 11:47:29 -!- easyE [KM43IXhg1z@panix2.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:47:32 drdo: it, should, describe etc are all methods 11:48:29 littlerue: What's that? 11:48:30 drdo: and here: http://www.sinatrarb.com/ 11:48:48 littlerue, this can be trivially emulated by Lisp macros 11:48:51 drdo: The ecosystem is the world you actually live in when developing. one could easily argue that it is actually more important than the core language itself. 11:49:16 deepfire: oh yes, compared to lisp im sure ruby hasn't got much, but compare it to other languages 11:49:33 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.214.174] has joined #lisp 11:49:37 littlerue: The point is that CL was here before ruby 11:49:51 deepfire: also, those are not macros, they're just methods in ruby. We can do a lot of 'macro-like' stuff using just methods 11:49:53 hello 11:50:07 schme: Why aren't you programming in C then? Pretty sure it has the largest ecosystem 11:50:11 littlerue, i.e. they compose better? 11:50:37 littlerue: But what is that example? I have no idea what's going on there 11:50:41 littlerue, you _can_ make sure that your macros compose well, but you'd have to put an effort into it 11:50:58 drdo: Hey I love programming in C. 11:51:07 littlerue, so I can see how it's a good thing in Ruby 11:51:38 drdo: also check out this syntax for an image mainpulartion library: https://gist.github.com/824625 11:52:19 littlerue: You can show me examples all day long, but i don't know what these examples actually do, i don't know ruby 11:52:24 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:52:53 deepfire: im sure lisp blows ruby out of the water; but i think what people like about ruby is: some macro-like power without using macros (2) very clean, almost english-like syntax (3) smalltalk's object model and smalltalk's blocks 11:53:06 drdo: well in that last example: image.paint { circle x, y, radius } 11:53:14 drdo: it just draws a circle on an image object 11:53:27 people is used to { and } 11:53:33 littlerue, I can see that, yes 11:54:31 It's all lambdas, anyway. 11:54:32 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 11:54:48 deepfire: except blocks in ruby have non-local returns 11:55:01 deepfire: so they can mimic macro-like functionality in some cases 11:55:11 simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 11:55:11 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 11:55:11 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 11:55:28 littlerue, well, yeah, CL's lambdas are not theoretically-pure as well 11:55:42 deepfire: for example I can write my own version of an if/else if/else expression in pure ruby code using just methods and blocks 11:55:43 I'm still confused 11:55:59 deepfire: if(expr) { action } 11:56:17 deepfire: you could even have a 'return' in that block and it would return out of the enclosing method, just as it does for an actual if-expression 11:56:42 littlerue, that's pretty nice for a macro-less language, indeed! 11:56:45 deepfire: this is only possible because blocks and lambdas are not the same thing. Lambdas have local returns in ruby, blocks have non-local returns 11:57:04 littlerue, CL's lambdas have RETURN and RETURN-FROM for this reason 11:57:14 nice 11:57:36 well, not lambdas per se, it's just a language primitive 11:57:45 deepfire: No they don't? 11:57:48 in ruby everything is an object too, even numbers. so i can go: 5.times { puts "hello!" } 11:57:58 deepfire: and it would display 'hello!' 5 times on the screen 11:58:02 RETURN-FROM is to return from a BLOCK 11:58:38 littlerue: what kinda object is times ? 11:58:49 schme: it's a method on Numeric 11:59:05 littlerue: so its a method object? 11:59:18 no, just as in smalltalk, methods in ruby are not objects 11:59:31 littlerue: "in ruby everything is an object" ? 11:59:34 but you can get an object wrapper for a method 11:59:36 drdo, well, you can (lambda () (block nil ... (return) ...)) 11:59:51 deepfire: Sure, but that doesn't mean that a lambda is a block 11:59:57 drdo, but that would complicate our smalltalk with unnecessary details 12:00:17 But you are entirely correct of course. 12:00:34 After all this talk, i still don't understand the advantages of ruby 12:00:54 littlerue: not that it matters. Having methods as objects is not the most useful feature for most use cases anyway. 12:01:05 drdo: compared to lisp im sure ruby has little advantages, but compare it to python or to perl or to c# 12:01:05 drdo: It will get you a job faster than lisp. 12:01:30 drdo: popularity: if you program in ruby, the probability the guy in the cubicle next to your programs in the same language goes over the roof, compared to lisp. 12:01:37 littlerue, does ruby have static checks, beyond syntax validation? 12:01:46 None. 12:01:50 pjb: Ok, i understand that 12:02:10 My question is, if the author of ruby knew and enjoyed CL 12:02:20 What were his goals when he developed ruby? 12:02:25 shoot him an email 12:02:33 drdo: popularity 12:02:35 He must have thought he could improve somewhere 12:02:35 littlerue, what pjb says saddens me and is a but turn-off -- dynamic languages really shouldn't be a check-less free-for-all 12:02:45 littlerue, what pjb says saddens me and is a big turn-off -- dynamic languages really shouldn't be a check-less free-for-all 12:03:17 I've got endless pain from Python's inability to check against my numerous minor mistakes. 12:03:23 drdo: I guess the ruby way fits the creators way of programming much better than CL. 12:03:41 drdo: ruby also has a form of lazy lists: (0..Infinity).step(5).lazy_select { |v| v.even? }.take(3) #=> [0, 10, 20] 12:03:41 -!- xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:03:56 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:03:59 drdo: to make a CL for mortals :) 12:04:06 drdo: he figured that CL was too difficult 12:04:13 drdo: and he also wanted something more smalltalky 12:04:21 littlerue, CL's complexity is really over-rated 12:04:24 drdo: and with syntax more people would immediately relate to 12:04:27 CL is pretty easy and nice to program in tbh 12:04:28 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 12:04:30 littlerue: I'd like a citation of this "CL was too difficult" 12:04:53 schme: he said it in a talk, i definitely heard him say it 12:04:58 ah ok. 12:05:12 littlerue: who said that? 12:05:15 well it is beating lisp in the important way. ie. popularity. 12:05:17 Ruby creator? 12:05:18 schme: but not so much as 'too difficult' more like you have to be a superman to program in it 12:05:26 Blkt, Matz, I guess 12:05:35 littlerue: It's the other way around 12:05:36 -!- dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-57-160.xnet.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:05:38 schme: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.ruby/msg/5ca4d9cadba3fabb?hl=en 12:05:38 The "he" of Ruby. 12:06:00 CL makes it easy to do a lot of things that would take superman patience to do in other languages 12:06:05 pjb: thanks. 12:06:19 or maybe one would just not do those things and do something else instead. 12:06:35 Well sure, you can always choose not to develop your program 12:06:51 dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-57-160.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 12:07:21 drdo, well what exactly? I mean I see DSL, fucking insane macros, but else? I think the else part is now done in languages like ruby really nice. 12:07:58 fantazo, including CLOS and the condition system? 12:08:08 iteration in ruby is also very beautiful, all ruby iterators are internal so we go: (1..10).each { |v| puts v } (to output numbers 1 through 10) 12:08:10 drdo: It seems to me that using "something else than lisp" hasn't really prevented anyone from developing. 12:08:15 -!- Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-17-38.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:08:20 fantazo, also, including the best-in-class MOP, perhaps? 12:08:21 schme: Turing completeness etc 12:08:25 Not a good point 12:08:40 hmm.. good point CLOS is so insane, that no one ever has come up with a greater oop system. 12:08:42 drdo: Obviously I'd love to live in a world where everything was lisp and forth, but it's C and python instead. 12:09:00 drdo: I don't buy into lisp being any kind of magic at all. 12:09:10 fantazo, CLOS is just a piece, see the CLOS MOP for the full amount of win. 12:09:11 What magic? Who's talking about maigc? 12:09:17 It's just a programming language 12:09:18 schme, ahh.. nice to see another forth enthusiast here :-) 12:09:23 fantazo: \o/ 12:09:25 *magic 12:09:46 flyfish [~liuguangz@61.50.131.98] has joined #lisp 12:09:50 fantazo: how does the CLOS oop system compare to smalltalk's one? 12:09:52 littlerue: What's beautiful about that? And how is that better than something like ITERATE? 12:10:02 drdo: I'd love to see some argument for why CL is a better language for real life development and not just hobbyist wanking. 12:10:12 Python attempts to emulate the CLOS MOP, but the end result is an incoherent mish-mash of attributes and dictionaries, which has all the properties of a joke. 12:10:27 Have you ever tried to do CALL-NEXT-METHOD in Python? 12:10:28 drdo: primarily one that trumphs the popularity + good ecosystem one. 12:10:33 schme, where is your project page? mine is at http://www.gitorious.org/~phantasus 12:10:36 Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-17-38.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:10:38 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host8-175-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:10:42 fantazo: I don't have a project page 12:10:55 Bronsa [~brace@host8-175-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:11:05 gameforth. interesting. 12:11:11 drdo: well the great thing about those iterators is we can stack them: (1..10).select { |v| v.even? }.map { |v| v ** 2 }.take(3) #=> [4, 16, 36] 12:11:11 schme: How is lack of popularity stopping you? 12:11:19 Soulman [~knute@166.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 12:11:24 drdo: huh. stopping me .. ? 12:11:58 littlerue: is select like remove-if-not ? 12:12:10 yes 12:12:14 yes 12:12:15 drdo: it's like filter() in some languages, not sure what it is in lisp 12:12:42 What's so good about that? 12:12:55 That's some simple stuff written in cryptic syntax 12:12:58 drdo: well, it looks nice to me. How would that look in lisp? 12:14:11 (mapcan (lambda (x) (when (evenp x (list (expt x 2))))) (iota 1 10)) 12:14:39 though that's not lazy, it can be 12:14:40 not bad 12:14:49 Well, I've missed a paren, but it's not important. Not ircing from emacs, you see : -) 12:14:53 10 [1,b] [ even? ] filter [ 2 ^ ] map 3 head 12:14:54 Attila and Levente did something lazy for CL 12:15:02 at dwim.hu 12:15:29 abeaumont: is that factor? 12:15:35 koning_robot: yes 12:16:00 Also, you'd have to load alexandria for IOTA. 12:16:03 we can simplify the ruby more,but im not sure it makes it prettier: (1..10).select(&:even?).map { |v| v ** 2 }.take(3) 12:16:19 that syntax is scary... 12:16:43 hehe 12:16:54 it tends to approximate line noise. as lisp approximates parent-noise :-] 12:17:03 true 12:17:07 Blkt, sssh, you don't hear littlerue complain about parens, right? be polite! : -) 12:17:11 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 12:17:17 yeah i dont like the &:even? syntax very much 12:17:18 lol 12:17:31 is that for function lookup? 12:17:37 &:func 12:17:43 no it is a gruesome hack 12:17:48 ahahahaha 12:18:03 Blkt: it applies the method :meth to the objects in the list 12:18:05 on the other side s-expr are prettier than xml, when 'compressed' 12:18:13 :func is a symbol, and &:func is a hack to refer to a method named by a symbol (rather than by referring to the method itself) 12:18:15 yes 12:18:15 jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-65-127.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:18:26 fantazo: sexps >> json-like 12:18:30 true fat free! 12:19:38 The only reason for parens is macros. 12:19:42 Blkt, '>>'? sorry what? are sexps greater than json or ... should be json-like shifted by sexps (which is a weird assoiciation, isn't it)? 12:19:42 koning_robot: what's the difference between &:even? and #evenp then? 12:19:45 No parens no macros. 12:19:59 Blkt: hehe 12:20:04 Blkt: long explanation :) 12:20:05 -!- ilowhy_ [~ilowhy@183.83.53.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:20:07 (yeah, I know about the bleeding-edge Moon's PLOT) 12:20:21 fantazo: >> "far better than" as > is "better then" 12:20:40 parens are just syntax, each matching pair just fits fine. 12:21:08 fantazo, exactly 12:21:29 fantazo, you just need to be sure you have only one kind of a matching pair 12:22:16 well, if you don't like parens there's still Forth 12:22:21 It's pretty clear that the amount of anti-paren moaning wouldn't be reduced if it were [[[]]] or {{{}}}, or even <<<>>> 12:22:38 deepfire, that's true 12:22:55 then it's just moaning about the specific style of what. 12:22:56 deepfire: i can also implement a 'let' in pure ruby 12:23:06 deepfire: i keep trying to get ruby-core to adopt it, but they ignore me :( 12:23:13 littlerue, LET is just syntax sugar for LAMBDA 12:23:27 deepfire: i meant let* 12:23:36 which is sugar for nested lambdas i know 12:23:43 but let me show you how easy it is to do it in ruby, one sec 12:23:43 Right : -) 12:24:08 Well, it's syntax sugar for a lambda application, to be precise. 12:24:20 hmm, I would like to implement something like a let, which lets me pass around the name = value assoication done to that let (= that scope ) 12:24:49 deepfire: https://gist.github.com/824648 12:24:52 I realized that I can't do that in python 12:25:09 deepfire: the x in the 'let' is guaranteed to be local to the let 12:25:45 deepfire: shadows anything outside it, it also takes the value you assign it in the ||, you could also go let { |x=10, y=(2*x)| ... } 12:25:54 which is sth yo ucan only do with a let* 12:25:56 right? 12:26:15 littlerue, correct 12:26:57 also, all the block control keywords would work in a let, too 12:26:58 littlerue, maybe ruby-code is riled up against this slight imprecision in the naming : -) 12:27:01 so you can fake tail ecursion 12:27:07 *core 12:27:19 ilowhy_ [~ilowhy@183.83.53.180] has joined #lisp 12:27:50 littlerue, or maybe this introduces compilation-related complications 12:28:02 deepfire: TCO in ruby https://gist.github.com/807435 12:28:14 ruby doesn't support TCO, but you can kind of fake it using this 'let' and the 'redo' keyword 12:28:40 hmm 12:29:14 deepfire: what do u mean riled up against this slight impression in the naming? 12:29:41 littlerue, well, it's let*, not let, CL-speaking -- that was my attempt at humor 12:29:52 oh ok hehe 12:30:15 Blkt: sorry, I was away for a bit. The difference is that #'evenp references a function, whereas &:even? invokes :even?.to_proc which returns a function that invokes a method named "even?" on its first argument 12:30:26 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:30:35 Blkt: it is a workaround for the fact that methods are not first-class objects 12:31:24 They aren't in CL either -- generic functions, which are composed of methods, are. 12:31:33 koning_robot: well you could pass it a method object if you really wanted to, it just wouldn't be as pretty 12:32:30 koning_robot: actually, no you coudln't. As a method is by definition bound to the state of an object, it doesnt make sense to dettach it and pass it around 12:32:41 none of this would matter if methods weren't owned by classes, that's where cl got it right imo 12:32:45 Well, on the MOP level, methods actually _are_ first-class object, it's just that you cannot do much with them, as they aren't functions. 12:32:56 koning_robot: well ruby got that from smalltalk 12:33:29 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@188.147.141.166.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:33:37 Sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 12:34:04 so in CL you can rebind a method from one object onto any other object? 12:34:58 littlerue, no, you cannot 12:35:16 Firstly, because CLOS isn't a prototype-based object system. 12:35:22 methods aren't bound to objects 12:35:24 so CL seems limited in the same was as ruby here? 12:35:24 It's class-based. 12:35:30 way* 12:35:39 littlerue: What do you mean by rebind? 12:35:57 littlerue, generic functions are composed of methods, and are first-class objects 12:36:11 As well as being functions. 12:36:38 hm 12:36:40 littlerue, there are multiple ways of composition of generic functions from methods, even at run-time 12:36:51 littlerue, these are called "method combinations" 12:37:02 littlerue, you can even define your own method combinations 12:37:20 i think this has gone over my little ruby head 12:37:20 haha 12:37:33 littlerue, and it compiles down to quite efficient machine code 12:37:41 awesome 12:38:07 deepfire: I think that's what they oppose to "simple lisp withous sexps and macros" 12:38:09 littlerue, a great deal of care has been taken to balance dynamicity against efficient implementation 12:39:04 as an example, consider #'print-object (which is like .to_s in ruby iirc). it's a global function, it's not bound to any object or class, and it has specialized behavior depending on the type of the first argument it is passed 12:39:09 i'd like to learn CL if only for the 'ah ha' experience you're supposed to get once you understand it 12:39:25 koning_robot: so it's like len() in python? 12:39:26 littlerue, in the end, CLOS+MOP is magnificiently dynamic, very efficient in the common cases and allows _type checks all over the place_ 12:39:40 koning_robot: it invokes the __len__ method of the object parameter? 12:40:04 littlerue: you could start reading sicp. 12:40:10 deepfire: yeah i know that ruby cant really compete 12:40:14 minion: tell littlerue about sicp 12:40:14 littlerue: please see sicp: The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, a CS textbook using Scheme. Available under the CC-BY-NC Licence at (HTML), (Texinfo), and (PDF). Video lectures are available under the CC-BY-SA licence at 12:40:15 deepfire: and matz i think admitted that too 12:40:31 In fact, I rarely even need MOP, it's just there to cover my ass, when I need it. 12:40:34 deepfire: but i think ruby has its place, as more a lispy smalltalky variant of python 12:40:43 competitor to python* 12:40:48 (as it's not a variant) 12:40:50 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:40:59 littlerue, python's and ruby's lack of static checks is a big turn-off for me. 12:41:01 deepfire: yeah i tried to undersatnd MOP once 12:41:26 I tend to do little mistakes now and then, and it really hurts to have them discovered at run time. 12:41:32 deepfire: yes but 12:41:41 coldnew [~coldnew@ymu041-045.ym.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 12:41:56 deepfire: as a counterpoint to the dynamic typing system, the ruby *ecosystem* has a huge passion for testing 12:41:57 -!- xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:41:58 littlerue: no, objects don't have methods. if you want to extend #'print-object to print your own objects, you just define a method on the #'print-object generic function that specifies how to handle objects of your class 12:42:03 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-178-117.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:42:49 littlerue, this is because ruby and python depend on them so much 12:42:53 deepfire: most rubyists follow TDD, and use code coverage tools as well. So even though we may still get bitten with runtime errors, we can really minimize them into almost non existence with super extensive testing 12:42:59 deepfire: exactly 12:43:14 littlerue, given the near-complete lack of checks, it'd be suicidal not to test 12:43:16 -!- ilowhy_ [~ilowhy@183.83.53.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:43:31 deepfire: but testing is good in and of itself anyway; and doeesn't really cause too much of a bottleneck in development 12:43:46 deepfire: so ruby + tests, we get close to the best of both worlds 12:43:59 at least as much as we can hope in a fully dynamic typed language 12:44:18 littlerue, you know, when you explore you don't want to write tests 12:44:26 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@87.29.195-77.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:44:31 SvChek [~SQ@62-47-213-14.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 12:44:34 littlerue, but the pain of discovering mistakes late can be critical 12:44:55 littlerue, in this way the lack of tests actually _hurts_ the dynamic properties of the language 12:45:04 too dynamic it hurts 12:45:04 deepfire: ive worked on a few large projects and i havent really except for once or twice experienced the pain you're talking about 12:45:11 i really think it's over emphasized 12:45:19 littlerue, how often do you do explorative programming? 12:45:29 explorative? 12:45:34 like testing an idea? 12:45:39 littlerue, right 12:46:00 a lot, i find that ruby's dynamism helps with this rather than hinders it 12:46:06 as there's less boilerplate 12:46:08 You _really_ don't wan to burden yourself with tests. 12:46:17 You want to be as swift as possible. 12:46:34 _And_ you want mistakes catched early. 12:46:40 (which is what you always want) 12:46:56 well i'd only want mistakes caught early if i was rolling it into production 12:47:06 i dont mind so much if i get occasional runtime errors if im just testing an idea 12:47:18 It's still a pain for explorative programming, FWIW. 12:47:30 -!- SuChek [~SQ@62-47-215-244.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:47:32 ilowhy_ [~ilowhy@183.83.53.180] has joined #lisp 12:47:42 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:47:50 It's about the rate of error-free code modification yout setup can sustain. 12:47:53 well if u really want there are libraries you can use in ruby that do implement a kind of type checking 12:48:21 but no one bothers with them because they're slow, but for explorative programming as you say maybe they'd be useful 12:48:51 littlerue, but wouldn't you have to go out of your way to use them? 12:49:10 littlerue, how well are they integrated into the language? 12:49:17 Ragnaroek [5b0c278b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.12.39.139] has joined #lisp 12:49:19 ive never used one so i cant say, but with ruby's monkey patching abilities 12:49:21 -!- colbseton [~colbseton@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-54-252.w83-113.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 12:49:21 colbseton [~colbseton@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-54-252.w83-113.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:49:26 they can be extremely well integrated 12:49:55 The thing is that with CL you get all this for free. 12:49:57 you can modify core classes all you want to add this extra functionality 12:49:59 yeah 12:50:22 well CL > ruby, i admit ;) 12:50:39 It's mostly because the compilation techniques for CL are so mature. 12:50:47 thankfully ruby is only competing with python, perl, and friends 12:50:49 urandom__ [~user@p548A4BE4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:51:03 There's a load of scientific papes on the subject, and there are decades of implementation experience. 12:51:07 *papers 12:52:05 what do u think of clojure? does clojure have any of these cool CL features you've been tlaking about? 12:52:26 clojure has the cool feature of running on top of jvm. 12:52:26 littlerue, it has a lot of them, but nobody likes the JVM ; -) 12:52:51 well, s/nobody likes/many people don't like/ 12:52:56 i thought everybody liked the jvm 12:52:59 but everyone hated java 12:53:24 I've heard several scala/java people say the jvm sucks in comparision to the .Net world. 12:53:37 hm interesting 12:53:41 but I'd think people wanting to sell phone apps like the jvm. 12:53:42 because it was developed for java only 12:53:48 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 12:54:05 and there was no intention to support other languages 12:54:14 Ragnaroek: It was something about the jvm starting to lag behind in several areas, yeah. 12:54:14 .Net was alway a multi-language VM 12:54:33 smart design choice. 12:54:45 so .NET probably implements TCO and allows continuations and things like that 12:55:02 krfs [~jonata@189-16-43-233.cte.net.br] has joined #lisp 12:55:10 alama [~alama@a79-169-87-41.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 12:55:16 ruby supports continuations and fibers (co-routines) and TCO (in yarv), but they're nearly impossible to implement on jruby 12:55:25 so i hear 12:55:47 littlerue: F# supports continuations atleast .. and I guess the scheme running in the mono/net world also does. So you're probably right. 12:56:09 -!- Sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:56:43 littlerue: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/system.reflection.emit.opcodes.tailcall(VS.95).aspx :) 12:57:20 seet 12:57:21 sweet 12:57:31 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 12:57:34 kpreid [~kpreid@chris-PC.price.clarkson.edu] has joined #lisp 12:58:22 francogrex [~user@109.130.79.105] has joined #lisp 12:58:55 ok guys 12:59:00 thanks for the explanations 12:59:10 i think i know what swank is 12:59:13 etc 12:59:31 hope you at least think ruby is less of a piece of shit than you may have thought before, i dunno 12:59:50 cyas 12:59:55 littlerue: ruby seems great. 12:59:55 -!- littlerue [~horse@118.82.154.61] has left #lisp 13:00:15 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:00:21 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 13:00:43 isn't ruby lisp with another syntax and less features? 13:01:01 Ragnaroek: Isn't everything? 13:01:10 idn't we cover this the last 2 hrs? 13:01:18 Ragnaroek: it's a matzacred lisp. 13:01:31 pjb: *groan* 13:01:31 Ragnaroek: see http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.ruby/msg/5ca4d9cadba3fabb?hl=en 13:02:44 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 13:06:14 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 13:07:24 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:07:50 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:08:05 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:08:51 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:10:11 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 13:10:30 RaceCondition [~erik@cs78144055.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:13:01 -!- coldnew [~coldnew@ymu041-045.ym.edu.tw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:15:22 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[~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 16:48:05 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-87.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:49:24 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 16:50:32 -!- |nix|`` [~user@cpe-72-226-54-44.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:55:19 brodo [~brodo@p5B02249B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:57:12 -!- brodo [~brodo@p5B02249B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:57:37 brodo [~brodo@p5B02249B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:38 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:01:39 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:47 question regarding CLOS class re-definition: should an implementation reinitialize the class using a call to REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE? or how are the new values of the initargs from ENSURE-CLASS supposed to end up in the instance slots? 17:05:19 looking at ABCL, I see the class creation calling MAKE-INSTANCE, which does the initargs validation 17:05:28 however, redefinition doesn't seem to do reinitialization. 17:06:01 alama [~alama@62.169.67.133] has joined #lisp 17:06:26 rather, it triggers some 'manual' code which seems like it might have the same effect as initialization after allocation. 17:06:55 <_8david`> AMOP on ENSURE-CLASS: "Some of the keyword arguments accepted by this function are actually processed by ensure-class-using-class, others are processed during initialization of the class metaobject (as described in the section called ``Initialization of Class Metaobjects'')." 17:07:03 bad_alloc [~bad_alloc@HSI-KBW-085-216-109-135.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 17:07:09 <_8david`> AMOP in that section: "Initialization of a class metaobject must be done by calling make-instance and allowing it to call initialize-instance. Reinitialization of a class metaobject must be done by calling reinitialize-instance." 17:08:46 <_8david`> And e-c-u-c seems to be specified to take :metaclass and :direct-superclasses out of the args, and then: "All other keyword arguments are included directly in the initialization arguments." 17:08:48 hello, I need to make this list (0 ((1 (2 (3 (4)))) (5 (6 7)))) "flat"; i.e. it should look like (0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7). is there anything built-in or do i have to transform the list manually? 17:08:50 _8david`: thanks! 17:09:22 _8david`: I was reading a different section, which said "class redefinition follows the section 'Redefining classes' from the CLOS spec" 17:09:36 _8david`: this helped a lot! 17:10:10 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-178-117.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 17:10:55 bad_alloc: it's called flatten. You can find it everywhere. 17:11:45 bad_alloc: (defun flatten (thing) (if (listp thing) (mapcan #'flatten thing) (list thing))) 17:11:50 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:12:36 thanks Hexstream and pjb. (sorry for the obvious question, but my english isn't sufficient to find all the lisp related stuff) 17:12:57 nikodemus: were you able to blow up your sbcl with that xml file i sent around last night, using that loop repeat 100 do (cxml:parse-file ...) ? 17:13:19 alama: i never got to it, but stas and others poked about quite a bit 17:13:39 minion: logs 17:13:39 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 17:13:42 cool, i'll ping stas next time he's around 17:13:53 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:44 looking at the logs, thanks, didn't know about these 17:20:17 AlexSchell [~a_schell@p548A68FC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:20 -!- bad_alloc [~bad_alloc@HSI-KBW-085-216-109-135.hsi.kabelbw.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 17:20:53 hmm, seems that other people had trouble, too 17:20:54 -!- AlexSchell [~a_schell@p548A68FC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:21:02 i should probably get in touch with the cxml people 17:21:12 any cxml people here? 17:21:46 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 17:22:05 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:22:59 *Xach* points to _8david`, the cxml person 17:24:25 <_8david`> bad timing, but I'll read logs later 17:25:03 alama: IIRC my last guess was that (1) you build a huge tree (2) something on the stack looks like a pointer to some part of that tree (3) it gets retained, and eventually you run out of memory 17:25:06 <_8david`> so far I haven't heard anything that couldn't have been explained by gencgc being annoying though 17:25:47 nikodemus: ok, that would explain it; i'm writing to the cxml mailing list now 17:25:49 if CXML trees contain pointers both up and down the tree (i don't know), then a single false positive from conservativism will retain the whole tree 17:26:10 tronador_ [~guille@190.253.154.71] has joined #lisp 17:26:31 but i'm puzzled about where that pointer is being stored 17:26:37 anyway, i'll ask the list 17:26:42 aside from using methods that don't end up generating the whole tree in one piece, the only thing i can think of to avoid that -- should it be the cause -- would be to manually break links in the tree 17:26:53 <_8david`> can you check at which iteration your LOOP fails? (debug output + don't forget force-output). If it's the second/third iteration (or so), it wouldn't be too surprising that the tree from the first one is still around, I think. If it's much later, something weird is going on. 17:26:54 alama: sbcl is conservative on stack and registers 17:27:02 nikodemus: say more? 17:27:12 <_8david`> alama: don't bother with the list. I'll read scrollback right here. 17:27:22 _8david`: oh, ok 17:27:28 thanks 17:29:24 alama: imagine you have a doubly-linked list (a simpler stand-in for the DOM...), and something on the stack (an unboxed number, a float, whatever) looks like it might actually be a pointer to one of the nodes in that dlist. not being sure if it actually is, sbcl will consider the dlist node alive, which in turn keeps the whole list live 17:30:33 to prevent this from happening, if you _know_ that the list isn't needed anymore, you could iterate over it and set the next-node and prev-node links in the list to NIL, so that accidentally retaining one node doesn't retain all of them 17:30:39 nikodemus: ok, i think i see that; what i'm not sure i understand is what could qualify as "something on the stack (an unboxed number, a float, whatever)" -- it would seem that this implies that cxml is storing something after parsing, which puzzles me 17:30:46 nikodemus: but maybe this is some sbcl-internal thing 17:30:46 ? 17:30:49 (which sucks, but that's life) 17:31:05 alama: it's an sbcl internal thing 17:31:08 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@cs78144055.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: RaceCondition] 17:31:11 ah, ok 17:31:21 not cxml's fault in any way if it is indeed the case 17:31:25 right 17:32:36 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:32:36 -!- xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:33:07 -!- ilowhy_ [~ilowhy@183.83.53.180] has quit [Quit: ilowhy_] 17:33:27 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:28 (the stack i'm referring to is the callstack, you know, the thing you see in a backtrace.) 17:34:30 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.11.10.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:34:33 nikodemus: ah, ok 17:34:35 hmm 17:34:48 i think i see now 17:38:20 Kruppe [~user@CPE00222d128ba2-CM00222d128b9e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 17:39:05 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:39:35 Taggnostr2 [~x@dyn57-215.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 17:40:43 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has joined #lisp 17:42:15 _8david`: working on it now to see at what iteration we exhaust the heap 17:42:16 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:45:09 _8david`: hmm, i did something too naive, i think: (loop repeat 100 do (format t "iteration~%") (cxml:parse-file "" (cxml-dom:make-dom-builder))) doesn't print anything in my slime repl before i get dumped into the ldb 17:45:24 alama: did i tell that clozure cl has no such problem? 17:45:30 _8david`: what is your force-output problem? 17:45:38 stassats: oh, i didn't see that 17:45:40 i tried it on ccl, and garbage collect everything nicely 17:45:45 stassats: nice 17:45:53 *alama* downloads clozure cl :-> 17:46:20 though, the parsing itself is much slower 17:46:34 (actually, that doesn't matter so much for me, since most of my lisp devel for this particular project is being done on a linux box) 17:47:15 clozure cl isn't faster on a linux box 17:47:32 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@fibhost-66-129-193.fibernet.hu] has left #lisp 17:47:37 stassats: hmm, clozure is available for linux; it just doesn't seem to be available as a debian package 17:48:02 and that is a good thing 17:48:58 -!- krfs [~jonata@189-16-43-233.cte.net.br] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 17:50:04 thankfully it looks like i'm able to handle my handful of troublesome cases (e.g., that bilinear.xml file that i sent around) by just running sbcl with a big heap (16 GB) 17:50:23 but this is indeed a bit of a downer for me 17:50:37 this works until it doesn't 17:51:03 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.67.203.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:51:26 stassats: heh, yes 17:51:52 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-67-203-146.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:55 hm, actually, might be interesting to figure out where exactly the conservative reference is at 17:52:02 yeah 17:52:09 not now, though... other irons on fire 17:52:22 but i'll squirrel this away as a test-case 17:52:24 right; anyway, thanks for taking the time to think about my problem with me 17:53:04 *stassats* tried using sb-vm::map-referencing-objects, but it keeps locking 17:53:21 because it uses without-gcing 17:55:05 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.214.174] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 17:57:42 RaceCondition [~erik@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe5ddc00-120.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 17:59:21 nikodemus: what are you up to anyway, these days, with sbcl? 17:59:24 secret projects? :-> 18:02:08 stassats: i was thinking more along the lines of gdb/instrumenting the gc 18:02:51 alama: optimizing customer's application -- some stuff in sbcl, some in their code 18:03:02 cool 18:03:05 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-67-203-146.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:03:24 and right now clearing things from lp which look like quick and easy :) 18:03:25 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-67-203-146.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:43 nowhereman [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-111-253.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:04:37 lp? 18:04:48 (eg. both the recent ERROR and MAKE-INSTANCE stuff was spurred by benchmarks from a customer's application) 18:04:52 labour party? 18:04:54 lp = launchpad 18:04:54 https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/= launchpad 18:06:15 heh 18:06:50 -!- nowhere_man [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-45-159.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:08:30 lol 18:10:04 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.214.174] has joined #lisp 18:10:21 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.79.105] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:11:57 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-67-203-146.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:12:57 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:01 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-67-203-146.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:16 milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 18:13:21 -!- pchrist 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[~cmm@109.64.211.191] has joined #lisp 18:58:20 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.67.203.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:58:31 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:04 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.17.75] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:01:30 pnq [~nick@ACA2A4D6.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 19:02:13 alama [~alama@a79-169-26-3.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 19:02:27 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.92.253] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:02:52 lemoinem [~swoog@91-76-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:32 -!- cmm- [~cmm@109.64.211.191] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:04:03 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@fibhost-66-129-193.fibernet.hu] has joined #lisp 19:04:30 cmm [~cmm@109.64.211.191] has joined #lisp 19:04:50 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-31-120.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:05:05 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-31-120.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:06:33 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.17.75] has joined #lisp 19:07:15 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:09:13 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.17.75] has quit [Client Quit] 19:09:23 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.17.75] has joined #lisp 19:09:25 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-120-198.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:10:50 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.64.211.191] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:12:04 cmm [~cmm@109.64.211.191] has joined #lisp 19:13:48 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:17:22 mducharme [~nothing@S0106002401f31855.wp.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:35 afternoon 19:17:58 -!- jeekl is now known as nyson_ 19:18:01 I'm still getting acquainted with lisp, I had a question I was hoping someone could answer 19:18:27 -!- silenius [~silenus@p4FC22509.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:18:38 you don't have it anymore? 19:18:44 oops 19:18:45 have a question 19:18:46 sorry 19:19:13 I have a function defined, I'm trying to take this score object as an argument to the function 19:19:28 -!- moah [~gnu@dslb-084-061-242-186.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 19:19:38 I am getting the message: Call (# #) has the wrong number of arguments. 19:20:12 I tried using &rest to handle multiple arguments but I still get the same message 19:20:21 -!- nyson_ is now known as jeekl 19:20:29 my function is quite simple: 19:20:33 (defun in-to-out (myscore) (system::enp-score-notation myscore )) 19:22:00 perhaps I have to make it a lambda function? 19:22:01 post system::enp-score-notation 19:23:18 I did not write the enp-score-notation, it is built in to this PWGL 19:23:27 I do not know how to view the source from it 19:23:53 Sayra [~ikke@173-18-37-78.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 19:24:07 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:25:14 Demosthenes [~demo@71.16.32.83] has joined #lisp 19:25:27 this looks fishy, why would you call an unexported function in the SYSTEM package? 19:25:40 SYSTEM being an internal package of lispworks 19:26:06 the guys who wrote PWGL put lots of stuff into the SYSTEM package which is not supposed to be there 19:26:58 and PWGL was created using lispworks, yes 19:27:08 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.64.211.191] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:27:20 I do not actually have lispworks 19:27:21 interesting might be like sb-impl 19:27:25 I am doing the programming directly in pwgl 19:27:40 cmm [~cmm@109.64.211.191] has joined #lisp 19:27:57 *drdo* slowly backs away... 19:28:00 this is pwgl: http://www2.siba.fi/PWGL/ 19:28:07 er .. 19:28:57 so PWGL is a standalone application? 19:28:59 sorry, i don't think anyone here could help with a badly written application which could be only run on lispworks and has no sources 19:29:16 yup, or it can run inside lispworks 19:29:19 *Fade* touches his nose and points to stassats 19:30:11 downloading lispworks and running the application inside the lw environment maybe will give you some more debugging information. 19:31:12 I have a computer programming background but new to lisp stuff, I am just using this to compose music 19:31:42 srid [~sridharr@unaffiliated/srid] has joined #lisp 19:32:10 mducharme: Read what stassats last said 19:32:12 look up the call signature for enp-score-notation if the source is available. 19:32:28 if there's no source, then I think there's no help. 19:32:51 minion: gsharp? 19:32:53 gsharp: Gsharp is a graphical, interactive score editing application for standard Music notation. http://www.cliki.net/gsharp 19:34:19 yeah that doesn't help me 19:34:32 pwgl has libraries that let me create music algorithmically 19:34:35 hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 19:34:52 <|3b|> docs seem to say it takes 3 args, no idea what they are supposed to be though 19:35:05 timor [~timor@port-92-195-120-198.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:35:34 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 19:35:49 <|3b|> or maybe 2 args and unspecified keyword args 19:36:03 oh! 19:36:05 -!- vilsonvieira [~vilson@189.26.155.253.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:36:43 3b!! 19:36:44 thank you! 19:36:48 you are my hero, it works now 19:36:53 stassats: i don't know about badly written, but having seen a demo, PWGL is definitely on the cool side of the fence 19:37:17 it's mildly irritating when cool lisp systems only work on one implementation. 19:37:39 ba.fi/PWGL/ [20:28] 19:37:40 410 er .. 19:37:43 It jumps to totally gay when such implementation is proprietary 19:38:25 nikodemus: interning into a system package is bad, and i readily jump to conclusions 19:40:03 the PWGL guys tell everybody using PWGL not to add things to the system package, but they do it themselves heh 19:40:12 stassats: no particular disagreement there, but my impression is that while the coding style might be insular (or oddball) by our pretty high standards, it isn't that horrible. i saw some source in the demo, and it looked like lisp :) 19:40:33 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 19:40:33 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 19:40:33 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 19:40:59 Not interning into a system package isn't really a "pretty high standard" :P 19:41:11 MoALTz [~no@92.10.82.154] has joined #lisp 19:42:39 now that i've looked at this system, I'd like to play with it. 19:43:11 *Fade* considers a gsharp / csound mashup 19:43:21 (i don't know but i also vaguely suspect that it's an app that started as the implementors first non-trivial cl program, which typically leads there being stuff from the first couple of months or years that takes ages to get rid of later) 19:44:17 ...and they're musicians first, programmers second, so i cut them some slack -- especially since i don't need to provide them any support :P 19:44:52 what's amazing is that developers with that profile found and used CL at all. 19:45:18 i think it's easy when you're not prejudiced 19:46:02 stassats: It's not particularly easy to stumble upon CL if you are a non-programmer looking to get started 19:46:05 ok, i think that's enough apologia for now from me :) even though mikael lives somewhere pretty close i've only met him at once 19:46:49 doesn't look like he charges for the application; he should release the source. 19:46:55 drdo: you might get input from someone else, and don't immediately reject it on "slow, old, funny" basis 19:48:01 drdo: there's a strong cl history (cl music and such) in the algorhytmic composition/sound design fields. 19:48:14 drdo: Which makes it easier to come up with that language again. 19:48:25 vilsonvieira [~vilson@201.22.81.130.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 19:48:25 drdo: I don't think it's come out of nowhere. 19:48:58 -!- dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-57-160.xnet.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:49:31 antoszka: I didn't know that 19:50:28 drdo: https://ccrma.stanford.edu/software/clm/ 19:50:48 dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-66-144.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 19:51:01 I think the IRCAM community had some Lisp software as well (not quite sure, though). 19:51:31 antoszka - yes, that is PWGL 19:51:31 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:51:49 mducharme: I meant -- previously. 19:52:03 my teacher is from IRCAM 19:52:09 I understand PWGL is a new thing. 19:52:11 he has me using it and he developed lots of stuff for it 19:52:15 Right. 19:52:29 mducharme: Are you a musician? 19:52:40 (sorry, I know it's a vague question :)) 19:52:46 yes 19:52:46 -!- Landr [~vser@78-22-154-231.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:52:54 and I also have a computer science background 19:52:59 which is helpful here 19:53:27 but I have not touched lisp, I have programmed in 8086 machine/assembly language, C, C++, java, javscript, python, perl, php 19:53:38 I'm a sound engineer working mostly in IT. I never had the time to dig deeper than some csound assignments, unfortunately. 19:53:43 oh and basic of course but that's hardly worth mentioning 19:54:00 oudeis [~oudeis@cpe-98-154-251-103.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:54:19 I am able to pick up lisp quickly enough just by learning how it does things compared to other languages 19:54:30 vser [~vser@78-22-154-231.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 19:54:34 Mhm. 19:54:47 ok so I have part of this working and part of this not 19:54:58 Wow, the beginning of a new Scheme macro system sounds fun: 19:55:02 (defun pm-strip-to-part (myscore) (first (system::flat-once (system::enp-score-notation myscore :exclude '(start-time))))) 19:55:03 -!- vser is now known as Landr 19:55:03 "The progression from text pre-processors (such as the C pre-processor) to Lisp macros to 19:55:05 that works 19:55:11 this, does not: 19:55:16 Scheme macros is an evolution toward a wider compiler API 19:55:18 (defmethod pm-create-list (&rest args) (mapcar(pm-strip-to-part args))) 19:55:43 I must be doing something incorrectly 19:55:44 deepfire: like sbcl transforms? 19:55:48 The beginning of a new Scheme macro system paper, that is. 19:56:11 sridharr [~srid@S0106001d7e1acafc.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:12 deepfire: google for compiler meta-object system 19:56:13 deepfire: which one? 19:56:23 stassats, I've just started reading it, no idea. It's just the condescending tone which got me startled.. 19:56:26 <|3b|> oh, is that what 'incl/excl keywords' meant? never would have guessed that from the docs :/ 19:56:34 -!- sridharr [~srid@S0106001d7e1acafc.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:56:36 nikodemus, http://david.darais.com/assets/racket-macros.pdf 19:56:48 From a recent LtU posting. 19:56:52 can someone tell me what is incorrect with my defmethod statement? 19:56:59 <|3b|> clhs mapcar 19:56:59 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mapc_.htm 19:57:02 i'd love to have something like deftransform for usual programs 19:57:04 thanks 19:57:30 <|3b|> mducharme: ^ see that URL, your mapcar call seems to be missing some args too 19:57:41 -!- srid [~sridharr@unaffiliated/srid] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:57:42 |nix|` [~user@gilbert-24.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 19:58:15 although i would love more to have a SSC, which wouldn't need it 19:58:30 <|3b|> mducharme: or maybe has too many parens and not enough #' 19:58:34 <|nix|`> hi all 19:58:48 Hello 19:59:31 <|nix|`> |3b|: hi got time to read about *list and connection machine :) 20:00:07 <|3b|> mducharme: also, defmethod usually needs required arguments to specialize on, otherwise it should be a normal function 20:00:33 -!- wubo [~user@c-68-55-91-8.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:00:34 minion: please tell mducharme about PCL 20:00:40 mducharme: please see PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 20:00:42 *|3b|* isn't sure if a method with no required args is actually illegal, but it is a bit silly in either case 20:01:03 is macro-expansion-time considered a part of compile-time, or is it to be seen as a stage before compile-time? 20:01:33 <|3b|> |nix|`: cool, do you see the similarity to GPGPU stuff? 20:01:44 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-120-198.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:01:48 it's not-after compile-time 20:02:05 hrm 20:02:11 when I do (defun pm-create-list (&rest args) (mapcar(#'pm-strip-to-part args))) 20:02:12 <|3b|> yeah, have to expand macros to evaluate them 20:02:16 stassats: just so I understand correctly: it is before or at compile-time 20:02:21 I get badly formed lambda pm-strip-to-part 20:02:26 <|3b|> but compilation requires as a minimum expansion of macros 20:02:30 madnificent: yes 20:02:33 when I use defmethod I don't get that 20:02:35 but it doesn't work 20:02:40 mducharme: Reason what minion told you 20:02:42 *Read 20:02:47 stassats, |3b|: great, thanks for the heads up 20:03:35 -!- Sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:03:44 <|3b|> mducharme: your mapcar call is broken in either case, this one more so than the previous version though 20:04:08 <|3b|> possibly you wanted (mapcar #'pm-strip-to-part args)? 20:04:46 <|nix|`> |3b|: Yes I did. So are you planning to provide a similar API for cl-opencl 20:05:48 <|3b|> |nix|`: probably not, but i'd write it as a separate lib if i had more spare time (or justification to do so in non-spare time) 20:06:02 ahh! yes 3b 20:06:04 that is what I wanted 20:06:05 thank you 20:06:15 sorry I had a brain fart for a minute 20:06:22 used to in C where you pass arguments in brackets 20:06:33 so I put parentheses around the mapcar arguments 20:06:37 which obviously would create a list 20:06:49 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 20:06:55 <|3b|> yeah, that mismatch gets annoying in both directions :) 20:07:46 it's like when I sit down at a dos/windows command prompt and type ls 20:07:51 or type dir at a unix prompt 20:08:44 aoh [~aki@80.75.102.51] has joined #lisp 20:09:43 *rien* luckily never sits down at a dos prompt 20:10:08 I luckily never really sat at one. 20:10:44 My first linux was MkLinux DR1 on a powermac/66 back around 1996. 20:10:59 Before that I run an amiga. 20:11:09 *p_l|backup* recalls it... from the time he was 2yo till around 7yo when WinNT replaced it 20:11:25 I've seen the horrors of DOS looking over friend's shoulders, though. 20:11:30 hey guys, let's get back to Lisp 20:11:55 Yeah, unfortunately noone introduced my to Lisp back then :( 20:12:00 we need a #lisp-blah 20:12:04 mducharme: and then I can add typing "CD" at VMS prompt :D 20:12:10 #lisp-cafe is over there --> 20:12:22 :) 20:12:40 Fade: ? 20:12:45 Fade: #lisp-cafe is empty 20:12:48 <|3b|> |nix|`: i suspect *lisp wouldn't really be optimal for use with a GPU due to the differences in bandwidth ratios compared to a CM, so that would be more for fun than real use... CMlisp could still be useful, since it is much higher level. The higher-level-ness would make it much harder to do well though 20:12:49 Fade: I think it's closed... 20:12:53 it's #lispcafe 20:12:57 perhaps it isn't hyphenated 20:12:58 brisingr [~edhel@79.117.74.109] has joined #lisp 20:13:01 voila 20:13:23 It's not. But noone said a word there for the last 24+ hours. 20:13:58 be the first one! 20:14:05 in practice, theory and practice are the same. in practice, they are not. 20:14:08 stassats: you stole my words 20:14:13 have anyone of you use the rpc stuff in cl-json? 20:14:15 or something 20:14:21 *Fade* goes back to werk 20:15:01 it you send it improper json it throws some errors and I want to be able to handle the errors gracefully, but i have no idea how 20:16:33 handler-bind, handler-case 20:17:29 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d002e3b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:18:53 karbak [~akr@kar.vps.bitfolk.com] has joined #lisp 20:21:10 Does drakma:http-request only allow parameters on POST requests ? 20:21:46 Allows GET too 20:22:12 The default is GET even 20:22:21 Not sure what to make of this error - Don't know how to handle parameters in (("page" . 1)), as this is not a POST request. 20:22:45 can you paste the whole thing? 20:22:50 It's because of the 1 20:22:55 values can't be integers 20:22:59 Ah ! 20:23:08 It can only be a string and some other things that i don't remember off the top of my head 20:23:13 Thanks, that certainly explains things. 20:23:17 files! 20:24:05 -!- silentbicycle [~scott@99-55-246-143.lightspeed.gdrpmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:24:41 and the error message is misleading, because post request wouldn't know how to handle it either 20:25:13 <|nix|`> |3b|: got it. Are you thinking distributed CL. Something like cuda-MPI 20:26:30 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.64.211.191] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:26:40 <|3b|> |nix|`: not really, but i'm not really thinking details at this point in general, since i don't have time to work on it anyway :( 20:26:51 <|nix|`> :D 20:26:54 FirewalkR [~firewalkr@a85-138-104-212.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 20:27:25 <|3b|> and i don't have any clusters worth distributing things over for that matter :p 20:27:41 cmm [~cmm@109.64.211.191] has joined #lisp 20:27:48 *stassats* would like to explore cuda, opencl and other things, but can't find something useful to apply it to 20:28:03 <|3b|> yeah, that is part of my problem 20:28:21 smakinen [~smo@dsl-jklbrasgw1-ffbfc300-84.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 20:28:28 sabalabas [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:31 *|3b|* might try using some opencl for curve fitting for my gfx editor if i get that far though 20:28:42 single-threaded lisp code is enough for what i do, usually 20:28:55 <|3b|> the other problem is that the nvidia OpenCL drivers seem pretty flaky 20:29:14 <|nix|`> |3b|: so if i had to go in a distributed direction would you recomend a *lispy method or something else? 20:29:27 <|3b|> killing my display 'random coding for fun' quite a bit less fun :( 20:30:29 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:31:42 <|3b|> hmm, don't remember anything in *lisp that would be particularly useful for distributed stuff, and the local bandwidth vs host<->compute bandwidth issues would probably be even worse than with GPU 20:32:28 <|3b|> though i could see it still being useful for writing the part that runs on a particular instance 20:32:55 *|3b|* doesn't really know much about distributed computing stuff though 20:36:16 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@71.16.32.83] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:36:56 NihilistDandy [~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:14 -!- smakinen [~smo@dsl-jklbrasgw1-ffbfc300-84.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:39:34 It's pretty sad to see a Scheme OO system which seems to buy into the usual C++ public/private/method-tied-to-class crap, completely ignoring CLOS heritage.. 20:40:07 scheme has an OO system? 20:40:39 there's a 'clos-like' object system for scheme. i can't remember what it's called. 20:40:54 stassats, they have some of them, I'm commenting on whatever OO system du jour they have in Racket. 20:41:05 i meant Scheme, the standard 20:41:32 swindle, maybe? 20:41:37 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@cpe-98-154-251-103.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:41:39 stassats, unlikely, but I know little of Scheme. 20:42:18 every implementation makes their own object system 20:42:34 Yeah, that's my vague idea about their OO systems as well. 20:42:36 afaik directions racket go are much affected by research interests of fellman's group 20:42:44 -!- brisingr [~edhel@79.117.74.109] has left #lisp 20:42:45 i'm using gauche scheme, it has a clos-like object system, although i don't use it for stuff where i'd need an object system 20:44:13 hi 20:44:14 Anyway, Racket's new macro stuff sounds seriously up-marketed, and I'm trying to smoke out why. 20:44:33 SyChek [~SQ@62-47-193-77.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 20:45:07 well, like any language without a concrete standard spec, the scheme guys end up politicking for their favourite sacred cows. 20:45:20 The "text preprocessors to Lisp macros to Scheme macros" sounds quite a statement. 20:45:49 some of those scheme guys are still smarting from Erik Naggum. :) 20:46:00 -!- hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440254.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod_] 20:46:02 Fade: scheme has a concrete standard 20:46:33 that it's not useful for anything is another thing 20:48:04 -!- SvChek [~SQ@62-47-213-14.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:48:11 has the IEEE standard even been implemented since the 1980's? 20:48:37 everything has tracked the RnRS process since I've been watching. 20:49:04 racket and other modern scheme macro systems come awfully close to solving separate compilation for lisp (or solving it, depending on your criteria) 20:49:04 RnRS is the standard i was talking about 20:49:20 it's as concrete as any other language standard 20:49:41 you don't need IEEE or ANSI labels to call something a standard, do you? 20:49:45 that's one think CL macros just cannot do nicely 20:50:01 i was thinking in terms of the ANSI cl standard, which is so concrete, it's fossilised. 20:50:06 chemuduguntar [~ravic@smtp.touchcut.com] has joined #lisp 20:50:08 nikodemus, can you give a hint of where this fails in CL? 20:50:26 Fade: r5rs is analogous 20:50:35 "never to be changed" 20:50:41 stassats: *nod* 20:51:33 -!- Ragnaroek [5b0c278b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.12.39.139] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:52:09 zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 20:55:11 davazp [~user@15.Red-83-57-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:20 nikodemus, you mean that they store sexps along with binaries, so that if a defmacro-ing binary changes the macroexpanding binary gets magically updated? 20:56:25 -!- karbak [~akr@kar.vps.bitfolk.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:56:28 jesusito [~user@58.pool85-49-45.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 20:56:32 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:56:57 -!- Sayra [~ikke@173-18-37-78.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:57:23 -!- aponymous [U2FsdGVkX1@dc3nep52.dc.umich.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:58:00 Marcux [~Adium@189.121.111.41] has joined #lisp 20:58:22 -!- Marcux [~Adium@189.121.111.41] has quit [Client Quit] 20:58:26 deepfire: sort version: they solve the problems xcvb wrestles with 20:58:32 short, even 20:59:02 -!- osoleve [~andy@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:59:20 it's not a question of storing stuff, but knowing what definitions need to go into which objects, and how those objects depend on each other and sources 20:59:35 osoleve [~andy@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:18 Interesting.. 21:00:26 it's the module stuff 21:00:44 the papers are a bit dense, but they have good stuff 21:01:12 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-132-77.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:01:52 the point i'm trying to make: just as schemers should not pooh-pooh CL's macro system for being unhygienic (because it's not a problem), we should not pooh-pooh the efforts of those who have spent the last 30 years thinking about how to build better macro systems 21:02:29 what's unhygienic about macros? 21:02:35 I never understood why a lot of CL users like to bash on scheme 21:02:41 we can be as critical as we want, but to be critical we actually have to read those papers :) 21:02:47 ...30 years of them! 21:02:58 Landr: haven't you smelled your variables when you haven't gensymed? 21:03:08 Landr: yuck! They reek 21:03:09 ... I what now? o_O? 21:03:32 madnificent is waxing metaphorical on the subject of variable capture. 21:04:30 Landr: afaik unhygienic macros refers to macros that meddle with environment without GENSYM, though I might be mistaken 21:04:42 *Landr* doesn't know gensym :< 21:04:51 generic symbols? 21:04:52 Landr: ah, then I understand your comment 21:05:00 Landr: have you used macros in the past? 21:05:03 Landr: generate-symbol 21:05:18 Landr: used to avoid polluting the namespace 21:05:28 madnificent: not really, I only read the part in land of lisp about it 21:05:34 *Landr* is trying to read through graham next 21:05:49 http://community.schemewiki.org/?hygiene-versus-gensym this? 21:06:12 Landr: then you'll see it later, it'll make sense once you try to make use of it :) 21:06:29 ooh, foreshadowing! 21:06:37 Landr: also, be wary of PG's style 21:06:47 what about it? 21:07:04 PG's style isn't particularly idiomatic CL 21:07:23 I realize this is a really vague question, but does anyone have experience of the SBCL statistical profiler borking with a memory fault? I've got a (very naive) implementation of some screenscraping code that's taking about 200 seconds to execute, and I'm trying to figure out where most of the time is being spent. 21:07:25 a better beginning text is practical common lisp. 21:07:39 *Landr* can't really tell what's standard common lisp and what's a dialect :< 21:07:47 although "On Lisp" is still the best treatment of macros in CL 21:07:51 especially once packages and macros start coming about 21:07:56 Landr: though I'd probably recommend taking On Lisp *later* for macrology 21:07:56 I really enjoyed On Lisp 21:08:31 One immediate thing which I dislike in what I see, is how a single form can expand to multiple forms. 21:09:07 Maybe that's irrational, though. 21:09:18 What do you guy's think about kernel's operatives? 21:09:21 *guys 21:10:28 deepfire: i'd find that confusing 21:11:05 oudeis [~oudeis@adsl-99-182-76-63.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:17 ah, gensym creates an uninterned/unused symbol? 21:12:55 make-symbol does, gensym makes them with a uniquely looking name 21:13:02 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 21:14:48 I have a list that contains other lists and properties.. I want to flat the list and extract the properties, not sure the best way to go about doing it 21:15:02 Sayra [~ikke@173-18-37-78.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 21:15:04 Well, a novel thing that I see, is that a macro can emit not only SEXPs, but also random data, to be used by outer/later macros. 21:15:16 it looks like: ((some list) (some other list) :p1 hello :p2 goodbye) 21:15:17 what's a property? 21:15:32 enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-76-90-52-4.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:15:58 or symbols or whatever they are called 21:16:11 i'd really suggest you to read Practical Common Lisp 21:16:13 deepfire: macros in CL can expand to whatever they want, there's no restriction on what it can be 21:16:21 Zabaq [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:33 -!- jesusito [~user@58.pool85-49-45.dynamic.orange.es] has left #lisp 21:16:54 instead of wasting your and our time on explaining trivial things which are nicely explained in Practical Common Lisp 21:17:28 hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440254.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:17:30 Good morning everyone! 21:17:31 drdo: not really 21:18:12 what macros are expanded into should be being able to be dumped by the compiler into a fasl 21:18:21 I am reading it 21:18:39 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:18:54 stassats: What is that supposed to be? 21:19:10 mducharme: Why do you need to flatten the list if you are not going to retain the sublists? 21:19:50 clhs 3.2.4 21:19:50 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bd.htm 21:20:05 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 21:20:08 well, abcl just lost another of its utter slownesses: object instantiation just got 100% faster. 21:20:39 ehu: Congratulations! 21:20:45 thanks! 21:20:58 so it doesn't take any time? 21:21:11 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:22 now I need to learn all SBCL's tricks on MAKE-INSTANCE to make it even faster still. 21:21:24 stassats: 100% faster means it now takes half the time it used to. 21:21:36 at least to me it does. 21:21:41 -!- EarlGray [~dmytrish@beting-proceeds.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:21:53 stassats: 100% faster = twice as fast = half the time. 21:22:07 that's not as exciting than 21:22:11 then 21:22:47 stassats: lol. 21:22:50 right. 21:22:51 srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has joined #lisp 21:23:01 but it's still a significant step. 21:23:13 we're only half as slow as CLISP now. 21:23:22 i was thinking 100% faster, and faster meaning "taking less time", so that would be 100% less time 21:23:33 I mean, we're only running in twice the time as clisp now. 21:23:43 EarlGray [~dmytrish@beting-proceeds.volia.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:50 100% faster doesn't make any sense 21:23:57 stassats: what? 21:24:01 *ehu* goes to bed. 21:24:02 k9quaint: It makes perfect sense. 21:24:07 drdo: where? 21:24:12 stassats: how? 21:24:26 please, be more specific 21:24:47 -!- Sayra [~ikke@173-18-37-78.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:24:47 beach: in terms of time 21:25:26 100% faster makes sense 21:25:33 you could say that it does 100% more in the same time 21:25:49 k9quaint: Think like this: If I run x km/h, 100% faster means twice as fast, so 2x km/h, so it takes half the time to get somewhere. 21:25:55 Alright, the Scheme macro system uses multiple returned forms to output both the desired expansion, and out-of-band information for other macros. 21:26:03 k9quaint: what if there's nothing else to do? 21:26:23 k9quaint: If it grows linearly, then 100% faster also means the same in half the time 21:26:51 It'd help if macroexpand-1 would've passed through multiple values returned by the macro function. 21:28:05 So far, special variables are the only communication recourse in CL I can see. 21:28:33 why should they communicate in the first place? 21:28:54 -!- srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 21:29:06 Good question, it's not entirely clear that the examples presented couldn't be implemented without this communication. 21:29:55 beach: I always use the inverse, which would be "50% of the previous time", thus avoiding the 100% increase vs 200% total ambiguity 21:30:26 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:30:28 there's no ambiguity :P 21:30:34 k9quaint: You are free to do that of course, but 100% faster still makes sense. 21:30:39 stassats, ah, there is an answer: the pain of stage separation and the purported solution provided by EVAL-WHEN 21:30:54 "its efficiency rose by 100%, it's now 200% as fast, its delay dropped by 50%" 21:31:37 "I got a 100% salary increase, so I know make twice as much, so I can now pay off my house in half the time". 21:31:51 or party twice as much 21:32:02 that too. 21:32:05 or ditch the house and party more than twice as much 21:32:07 party at 200% efficiency or 200% of the time? 21:32:19 (3:19:18 PM) beach: mducharme: Why do you need to flatten the list if you are not going to retain the sublists? 21:32:25 *deepfire* reads http://david.darais.com/assets/racket-macros.pdf 21:32:28 Landr: being at two parties at once? 21:32:31 Landr: How do you measure partying effeciency? 21:32:32 beach I want to retain the sublists, flat-once doesn't work here 21:32:39 because it doesn't have anywhere to put the keywords or whatever you call them 21:32:51 mducharme: If you extract the "properties", you don't retain the sublists. 21:33:03 mducharme: Please go read a book 21:33:19 I had said properties before 21:33:37 then stassats said what's a property 21:33:42 so I assumed I read it wrong in the book 21:34:01 mducharme: I took "properties" to mean :p1 hello :p2 goobye. 21:34:31 yes 21:34:39 p_l|home [~pl@213.5.11.129] has joined #lisp 21:34:54 that lisp book someone pointed me towards called them properties 21:34:55 mducharme: so if you extract them from ((some list) (some other list) :p1 hello :p2 goodbye) you get (:p1 hello :p2 goodbye) which means you didn't retain the sublists. 21:34:59 part of a roperty list 21:35:02 "efficiency rose by" is an absolute, faster is a relative measurement of velocity 21:35:39 wouldn't efficiency be measured in velocity? 21:35:48 would it always? 21:35:54 velocity is shit/time 21:35:56 what if the amount of work was fixed 21:35:58 Can't we have this conversation elsewhere? 21:35:59 ok, sorry let me explain what I want 21:36:09 -!- zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has left #lisp 21:36:10 yeah, this is very unlispish 21:36:13 I am reading through this book but I can't seem to find it 21:36:13 wouldn't efficiency be measured as a ratio of useful work to non-useful work? 21:36:23 what is happening is I have lists inside lists inside lists inside lists inside lists 21:36:27 stassats: yes 21:36:39 or usually useful/total 21:36:42 I am drilling down several levels and reorganizing the lists down deep 21:37:21 stassats: But when talking about computers, how do you distinguish between the two? 21:37:43 I would like to avoid doing recursive operations here 21:37:57 drdo: garbage production? 21:38:04 because I'll probably end up coding an infinite loop accidentally 21:38:22 stassats: That's a terrible measure 21:38:30 -!- jdz [~jdz@host140-104-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:38:37 drdo: that's only regarding memory, i don't know how to apply it to running time 21:38:38 stassats: it could be a measure of less resources or energy consumed instead of an increase in speed 21:39:01 stassats: Even for memory, i can just take lots of memory and never release it 21:39:07 -!- myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:39:35 what I want to do is to turn ((some list) (some other list) :var1 hello :var2 goodbye) into (((some list) (some other list)) (:var1 hello :var2 goodbye)) 21:40:24 that's what I want to do, beach... 21:41:07 It's pretty sad that SYMBOL-MACROLET doesn't take &environment. 21:41:45 what do you mean? 21:42:00 Hmm, actually special variables cover that just right, no need for &environment. 21:42:24 stassats, I'm looking at page 5 of that paper 21:42:38 symbol-macrolet is symbol->expansion mapping, there is nothing to be computed 21:43:02 what I want to do is not easy 21:43:08 I'm sure 21:43:27 everything is hard when you don't understand what you're doing 21:44:15 -!- alama [~alama@a79-169-26-3.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: alama] 21:44:18 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:44:18 I know, i'm just trying to get this dumb thing working... 21:44:22 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.253.154.71] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 21:44:39 I have to get this piece written soon 21:44:45 mducharme: Go read the book please 21:45:07 stassats, right, but you could macroexpand-1 a macro during an expansion of symbol-macrolet 21:45:23 alama [~alama@a79-169-26-3.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 21:45:55 stassats, a predefined macro. That probably wouldn't buy you much beyond what a special variable binding would. 21:45:57 deepfire: i don't understand what you just said, do you mean that you can macroexpand-1 a symbol-macro? 21:46:11 -!- alama [~alama@a79-169-26-3.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 21:46:29 stassats, the macro function of the symbol macro could call macroexpand-1 21:47:14 i'm not getting something, symbol-macros can't call anything 21:47:45 Oh, I'm misreading the spec then. 21:48:09 it just produces an expansion, and expansion can do whatever it wants 21:48:55 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.242.213] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:49:19 That's even sadder. 21:49:25 like (macrolet ((env (&environment env) env)) (symbol-macrolet ((x (macroexpand-1 'x (env)))) x)) => (MACROEXPAND-1 'X (ENV)) 21:50:23 deepfire: well, that's what macrolets are for 21:50:39 -!- mega1 [~user@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:51:02 This straight expansion by symbol macros keeps evading my memory. 21:52:01 so it's just like a variable, but it's value is substituted during expansion time 21:52:24 Yeah, it's even got let-related shadowing provisions for this purpose. 21:52:31 and macros are just functions, which values are substituted during expansion 21:53:26 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A4BE4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:54:28 everything above the infinite turtles is just ones and zeros 21:55:08 i have church numerals here 21:56:07 Well, I think I can see how I'd implement the example in section #2.3 of that paper, using the symbol-macrolet-inside-macrolet pattern stassats provided. 21:57:21 macrolet isn't strictly needed, if there were other means of capturing the environment 21:57:33 except global macros 21:59:34 mducharme: Why you called that "flat the list and extract the properties" is beyond me. I tend to agree with the others. Go read a book! 21:59:55 -!- davazp [~user@15.Red-83-57-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:01:35 -!- |nix|` [~user@gilbert-24.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:01:53 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 22:02:17 I am reading the book 22:02:30 I cannot find a function that does what I need.. I see how to read the keywords from the list 22:02:31 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-132-77.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:02:31 good, keep on it 22:02:40 davazp [~user@15.Red-83-57-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:49 the problem is I can't find a function that lets me read all the keywords into one thing 22:03:06 the functions just tell you what the value if the keyword is if you know the keyword, but I don't know what keywords will be there 22:03:43 where do you get this list? 22:04:00 it's generated by this score creator 22:04:17 it creates a large number of keywords 22:04:23 not sure what the full list is or what they all mean 22:05:01 so you need to facilities CL provides to solve the problem at hand 22:05:11 <|3b|> clhs nth-cdr 22:05:11 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for nth-cdr. 22:05:14 need to use 22:05:17 <|3b|> clhs nthcdr 22:05:17 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_nthcdr.htm 22:05:41 |3b|: that assumes that the position is fixed 22:05:45 is that so? 22:06:11 no, it's not fixed position 22:06:15 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:06:20 let me explain why I am trying to do this, that might help 22:06:37 rvirding [~chatzilla@h134n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 22:06:46 <|3b|> ah, thats a bit more work, depending on what else you know about the structure 22:07:12 the way that musical scores are indicated in this thing, the score is a list containing the parts, each part contains a list of measures and keywords that configure the part settings 22:07:23 I am taking multiple score objects and joining them together 22:07:36 <|3b|> maybe member-if + keywordp? 22:08:07 I can join the parts together but need to put the keywords back in afterwards 22:08:18 and if I don't remove the keywords I end up with the keywords multiple times for every single measure of music 22:08:22 (loop for cdr on '((some list) (some other list) :var1 hello :var2 goodbye) when (keywordp (car cdr)) return (list lists cdr) collect (car cdr) into lists) 22:08:22 => (((SOME LIST) (SOME OTHER LIST)) (:VAR1 HELLO :VAR2 GOODBYE)) 22:09:18 ahh! excellent 22:09:58 -!- SyChek [~SQ@62-47-193-77.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:10:15 thanks, it would have taken me forever to figure that out.... 22:13:10 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@fibhost-66-129-193.fibernet.hu] has left #lisp 22:14:20 simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:14:20 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 22:14:20 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 22:19:21 -!- hun [~user@91-65-90-50-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:20:15 fantazo__ [~fantazo@178-190-236-78.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 22:21:14 -!- fantazo__ [~fantazo@178-190-236-78.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:21:15 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:21:36 Fare [~Fare@64.119.159.126] has joined #lisp 22:22:13 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:22:45 I'm going to download lispworks so it's easier for me to try out code 22:22:52 tronador_ [~guille@190.253.154.71] has joined #lisp 22:22:55 it's hard to test stuff when I can't just execute it at a prompt 22:24:06 -!- fantazo_ [~fantazo@178-191-163-254.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:24:07 most of us use emacs+slime for that 22:24:25 I'm on windows 22:24:27 -!- Zabaq [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:25:05 that doesn't change a thing 22:26:14 myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 22:26:20 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:30:00 troussan [~user@c-24-245-15-191.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:22 silentbicycle [~scott@99-55-246-143.lightspeed.gdrpmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:26 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-212-117.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:32:29 -!- benny [~benny@i577A118A.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:33:09 oh good! 22:33:17 it explains all that you did there in the looping for black belts chapter 22:35:16 chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 22:35:45 -!- hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has left #lisp 22:42:00 -!- Kruppe [~user@CPE00222d128ba2-CM00222d128b9e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:44:34 danparker [~danparker@host-134-225-185-111.readingconnect.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:45 -!- zmv [~daniel@c934a93a.virtua.com.br] has quit [Quit: bye] 22:45:06 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 22:46:29 -!- leo2007 [~leo@124.72.187.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:46:41 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:48:58 alama [~alama@a79-169-26-3.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 22:50:30 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.17.75] has left #lisp 22:50:43 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.17.75] has joined #lisp 22:51:13 Jubb [~ghost@129.21.84.240] has joined #lisp 22:51:14 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:52:25 -!- Landr [~vser@78-22-154-231.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:52:31 Landr [~vser@78-22-154-231.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 22:52:52 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:53:12 -!- Kovensky [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 22:53:16 Kovensky [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has joined #lisp 22:54:41 benny [~benny@i577A1CBD.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 22:57:27 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-178-117.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:08 TeMPOraL [~user@188.147.129.168.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has joined #lisp 22:58:17 hi 23:03:03 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.195.17] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 23:04:32 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:06:39 gonzojive_ [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:19 lurker-x [~androirc@c-75-72-99-111.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:47 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:12:47 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-65-127.iburst.co.za] has quit [Quit: Good night all.] 23:15:07 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@adsl-99-182-76-63.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:15:16 -!- danparker [~danparker@host-134-225-185-111.readingconnect.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:15:33 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:15:35 gonzojive__ [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:16:20 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:19:39 simo163 [~quassel@85.136.15.136.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 23:20:01 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.253.154.71] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 23:24:03 Hi everyone :) 23:24:39 How can i write in the end of the file?? 23:25:00 :if-exists :append , I think 23:25:43 will try 23:26:35 perfectttttt 23:26:37 thankss 23:26:39 yw 23:26:46 <3 with-open-file 23:27:20 yes 23:27:44 is it possible with (setq file (file.txt ....)? 23:28:19 what do you want to do? 23:28:43 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.208.177] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 23:29:47 just because in my ancien code i oppend the file with setq 23:29:56 but now i do it with with-open-file 23:30:21 *madnificent* doesn't grasp it, sorry 23:30:23 Okay so... a set of old API functions is being replaced by a new set with very similar capabilities. I'm wondering if there's a reliable way to make the old functions warn at -compile time- about deprecation. Writing compiler macros was suggested, but I don't know if that's something that should be relied on (or if having compile-time side-effects is a bad idea). The deprecated functions also get inlined now, so that might be a 23:30:25 stopper. Is there anything that can be done that's reasonably portable? 23:31:23 sykopomp: (eval-when :compiletime (warn "bla")) ? 23:31:26 <|3b|> simo163: better to use with-open-file, so you don't have to close the file by hand... OPEN should take the same args as with-open-file though, if you have some reason to want the open stream to stay around indefinitely though 23:31:54 <|3b|> madnificent: in user code that calls the deprecated functions? 23:32:11 *sykopomp* thought eval-when didn't really work like that outside of the toplevel. 23:32:37 -!- FirewalkR [~firewalkr@a85-138-104-212.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:32:40 excatly i just got a error when it closes the file 23:32:47 -!- Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Fullma] 23:32:58 compiler-macros would do, but they aren't guaranteed to be expanded 23:33:27 right 23:33:38 still, it could be the least unportable way 23:33:53 sykopomp: why aren't ordinary macros adquate for this problem? I'm assuming just symbols are being redefined 23:34:27 hargettp: the deprecated functions were originally functions, and it doesn't make sense for them to be macros. 23:34:38 redefining them as macros can break user code. 23:35:32 so, you write (defun foo () (error "deprecated")) and (define-compiler-macro foo () (error "deprecated")) 23:36:02 that way it will work both at runtime and at compile-time 23:36:12 That's reasonable. :) 23:36:27 hargettp: ordinary macros would help with (funcall #'foo ...) 23:36:48 stassats: would or would not? 23:36:50 when i write a line with argument, gives me an error 23:37:04 <|3b|> well, original intent of suggesting compiler macros was to get a polite 'this will break eventually' rather than just breaking it now :) 23:38:13 <|3b|> so there is at least some hope of end-users not seeing problems during the transition 23:38:21 hargettp: what do you thing? 23:38:25 (write-line "hello" file) its ok but 23:38:25 (write-line "~a" argm file) is it correct? 23:38:29 damn 23:38:32 think 23:38:41 simo163: no 23:38:45 simo163: check /msg 23:38:46 write-line isn't format. 23:39:00 stassats: I would assume ordinary macros would not...if there is a (defmacro foo ...) then (funcall #'foo...) would not expand the macro... no? 23:39:43 <|3b|> #'some-macro is an error 23:39:54 <|3b|> (implementations are allowed to be lazy and not signal it though) 23:40:29 srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has joined #lisp 23:41:55 -!- Soulman [~knute@166.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 23:43:06 FirewalkR [~firewalkr@a85-138-104-212.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 23:43:36 madnificent> c l3bl: exactly :) 23:44:23 Dang. 3 ironclad tests fail. 23:44:32 simo163: (with-open-file (s "/tmp/foo.txt" :direction :output :if-exists :append :if-does-not-exist :create) (format s "foo~%")) 23:46:29 -!- vilsonvieira [~vilson@201.22.81.130.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:49:11 tronador_ [~guille@190.253.154.71] has joined #lisp 23:51:14 -!- ch077179 [~urs@adsl-89-217-130-206.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 23:53:42 that works in a simple code, but in my project got an error that the file is closed 23:53:45 ay 23:54:00 {AD65171}> is closed?? 23:54:36 are you trying to write to the stream s *after* calling (with-open-file ...) ? 23:54:41 because you're using it in the wrong place? 23:54:57 simo163: something like (with-open-file (s ...) ...) (format s "foo") ? 23:55:33 oh no 23:55:58 i write after calling with-open-file 23:56:10 simo163: don't ^_^ it closes the file ^_^ 23:56:24 i undertand 23:56:55 i have to close ) after write in the file 23:57:06 the code is big and i didn't see it uff 23:57:28 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:57:46 simo163: these things happen 23:59:13 vilsonvieira [~vilson@189.26.150.87.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp