00:01:59 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:04:28 -!- superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.148] has quit [Quit: superflit] 00:08:57 -!- Edward [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-41-25.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 00:09:31 compmstr [~compmstr@adsl-074-185-008-197.sip.clt.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:59 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 00:16:14 -!- mcguitan83 [~user@mar92-10-82-239-64-83.fbx.proxad.net] has left #lisp 00:19:58 -!- rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:20:43 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.23.16.75] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:21:53 I'm not sure if ccl is broken, of I'm breaking it :( 00:21:54 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 00:24:08 beach: the setf expander seems to through ccl into an endless loop from which I can't recover 00:24:35 well, the optimized part anyway. If I use the slow path, it's fine 00:25:36 *slyrus* has a flashback to abandoning ccl for SBCL many many years ago because the code it produced for the precursor of CLEM sucked 00:26:34 the fact that the slow paths run on ABCL and CCL tell me that we're not doing anything to terribly wrong. if ABCL doesn't have the cltl2 stuff we need, so be it, and if CCL is broken, not much I can do about that... 00:28:53 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 00:29:37 -!- compmstr [~compmstr@adsl-074-185-008-197.sip.clt.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:29:51 slyrus: bug report? 00:30:09 i'm not sure they're your fault 00:30:29 on 1.7-dev, ASDF seems broken. on 1.6, opticl causes it to chug and chug 00:30:40 but, yeah, bug reports will be the right thing in time 00:30:50 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:34:17 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:34:45 oops. my bad. 00:36:10 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Quit: I'll see you on the dark side of the moon] 00:36:50 -!- Krystof [~csr21@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:36:50 -!- arvid [~arvid@186.205.212.226] has left #lisp 00:37:05 and ccl64 is much faster than ccl for this. nice. 00:38:25 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 00:41:16 sbcl still wins by a wide margin. yay SBCL. 00:43:13 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.82.68] has quit [Quit: ] 00:44:43 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:46:59 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:47:28 slyrus: why should i not choose sbcl over something? i sense that you've pretty arguments. 00:48:29 petty ones too 00:48:52 no, don't get me wrong, I like SBCL, but I'd like my lisp code to be at least nominally portable 00:49:04 why should you choose SBCL over something that works better for your particular application? (: 00:49:20 slyrus: hm my sbcl apps are not portable? 00:49:24 beach: abcl and ccl support checked in 00:49:39 v0|d: not necessarily, if you use things like sb-cltl2, which I am 00:49:48 oh i see. 00:49:55 though dont know about cltl2 00:50:02 i was absent last 2 years, sorry. 00:50:07 my bro died. 00:50:26 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:50:29 there are lots of other things that aren't in the spec that implementations provide that can be provided by various compatibility libraries 00:50:44 (networking, IO guts, MOP, etc...) 00:50:49 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 00:50:58 sorry to hear that v0|d 00:51:31 slyrus: np, getting used to it. 00:52:17 any reading about cltl2? 00:52:35 better me catch up, fast. 00:52:40 it's not new, but look in sbcl's contrib/sb-cltl2 00:52:52 orrayt. 00:52:52 you probably don't need its facilities 00:53:07 I hadn't until trying to optimize the pixel operations in opticl 00:54:23 what about epoll support in new sbcl? 00:54:33 do we have lightweight threads now? 00:54:46 -!- Younder [~john@224.13.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:54:55 i remember ghc implementing new epoll trampoline. 00:55:19 kei-clone [~kei-clone@cpe-24-24-85-1.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:56:28 anybody using marijn's javascript parser, would be nice to share experiences. 00:56:28 -!- kei-clone [~kei-clone@cpe-24-24-85-1.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:56:57 s/share/hear/g 00:57:20 kei-clone [~kei-clone@cpe-24-24-85-1.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:03:21 icbh_ [~icbh@ntszok054022.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:03:27 -!- icbh_ [~icbh@ntszok054022.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 01:03:54 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 01:03:56 myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 01:04:00 -!- icbh [~icbh@ntszok054022.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:04:04 huangho [~vitor@201-34-118-173.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 01:04:13 icbh [~icbh@ntszok054022.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:09:45 -!- pkhuong_ [~pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:09:45 -!- kei-clone [~kei-clone@cpe-24-24-85-1.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:10:26 -!- xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:10:48 kei-clone [~kei-clone@cpe-24-24-85-1.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:13:01 -!- Blkt [~Blkt@dynamic-adsl-94-37-227-177.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: ERROR: do not makunbound t please!] 01:15:04 -!- konr [~user@magoo.lab.ic.unicamp.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:16:08 lisp drama right here folks (i am ) https://www.privatepaste.com/eeb6d79d6f/LISPISFUN 01:16:08 -!- kei-clone [~kei-clone@cpe-24-24-85-1.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:16:53 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:17:11 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 01:18:08 kei-clone [~kei-clone@cpe-24-24-85-1.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:20:21 cheez [~Adium@206-248-177-146.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 01:20:50 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:20:57 Quadrescence: thats not drama, that is someone who doesn't understand lisp in a channel for lisp 01:21:01 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483B779.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:21:06 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-081-182.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:21:44 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:22:05 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 01:22:05 it was personal correspondence 01:22:41 are you robert? 01:23:57 -!- kei-clone [~kei-clone@cpe-24-24-85-1.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:23:58 Hello! If I want to use a function in a macro expansion, do I have to wrap its definition in an eval-when? 01:24:09 WOW, that was some spectacular reading comprehension fail on my part :) 01:24:14 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.215.39] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 01:24:44 k9quaint: ;) 01:25:21 makes me want to concoct a story about being groggy after an alien abduction and thorough probing session :( 01:25:31 kei-clone [~kei-clone@cpe-24-24-85-1.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:27:41 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.215.39] has joined #lisp 01:29:28 k9quaint: aka what we routinely do to other species? :D 01:29:44 Quadrescence: That's some depressing reading. 01:29:50 huangho: yes, or put it in another file. 01:31:22 rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 01:31:25 p_l|backup: no otters were harmed in the making of my lisp programs 01:31:47 Xach: thanks 01:32:00 who cares about otters. Platypus is still angry for that time-traveling schtick 01:32:14 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:18 pnq [~nick@ACA246FB.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 01:34:50 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:35:07 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 01:36:00 guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-wefxbrscoxnkymgv] has joined #lisp 01:39:34 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has left #lisp 01:40:03 p_l|backup: platypus is a hostname in one of the networks I administer. 01:40:12 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:40:12 -!- huangho [~vitor@201-34-118-173.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:40:28 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 01:40:31 hahaha 01:41:36 -!- kei-clone [~kei-clone@cpe-24-24-85-1.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 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[~kei-clone@cpe-24-24-85-1.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:09:20 pkhuong_ [~pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 02:09:29 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:16:02 -!- mathguru123 [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:16:46 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 02:19:27 -!- _hramrach [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:19:54 -!- pkhuong_ [~pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:22:40 _hramrach [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has joined #lisp 02:28:30 -!- ymv [~imv@94.231.123.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:28:30 -!- kei-clone [~kei-clone@cpe-24-24-85-1.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:28:56 am0c [~am0c@180.224.41.34] has joined #lisp 02:29:06 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sbahra] 02:29:32 kei-clone [~kei-clone@cpe-24-24-85-1.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:29:33 ymv [~imv@94.231.123.31] has joined #lisp 02:30:01 mathguru123 [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:47 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Night!] 02:38:29 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:38:48 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 02:39:22 Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.228.29.205] has joined #lisp 02:42:06 NihilistDandy [~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:01 Has anyone read http://oreilly.com/catalog/9781593272814 ? 02:43:30 I'm trying to get a friend into Lisp, so I'm looking for a good starter book 02:43:47 I was considering Practical Common Lisp, but that might be over his head 02:45:49 minion tell NihilistDandy about gentle 02:45:53 minion: tell NihilistDandy about gentle 02:46:04 pjb: Ah, give me a sec. 02:46:12 NihilistDandy: Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation http://www-cgi.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/dst/www/LispBook/index.html http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 02:46:35 this is also an introduction to programming, so it's simplier to begin with. 02:46:48 minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 02:46:59 Hmm. That could work, too. I'd forgotten all about gentle 02:47:32 minion: Gentle? 02:47:32 Gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 02:47:35 Good. 02:49:20 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:49:39 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 02:50:33 -!- hugod_ [~hugod@76.66.188.14] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:51:04 -!- dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-76-239.xnet.hr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:51:16 myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 02:51:36 hugod_ [~hugod@76.66.188.14] has joined #lisp 02:52:29 Tweekly [~rixx69@60-234-166-237.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 02:53:30 -!- Tweekly [~rixx69@60-234-166-237.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has left #lisp 02:53:30 -!- kei-clone [~kei-clone@cpe-24-24-85-1.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:54:39 gko [~gko@60-251-71-121.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:55:30 -!- ymv [~imv@94.231.123.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:55:35 dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-76-239.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 02:55:58 ymv [~imv@94.231.123.31] has joined #lisp 02:56:59 sf cvs still down. Dang. 02:57:14 -!- setmeaway [setmeaway3@183.106.96.22] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:59:31 ... You're not using it for CMUCL, are you? 03:00:54 No. CMUCL moved to c-l.net a long time ago. I was just thinking about moving series and matlisp to something else (with prodding for fe[nl]ix) to something else when all the fun happened. 03:01:34 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.204.165] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 03:01:44 It's a sign from the The Great Version Control God that I should continue use the One True Concurrent Version Control system! 03:03:41 -!- lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:03:51 Either that, or it's a sign that you should stop using it ASAP and start using git instead. 03:03:58 Seconded 03:04:11 superflit [~superflit@c-67-176-26-75.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:18 lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 03:04:52 csamuelson [~csamuelso@adsl-240-246-114.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:08:35 -!- superflit [~superflit@c-67-176-26-75.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:11:02 rtoym: the rsync repository mirror service is still up, AFAICT 03:11:20 rtoym: at least, the boinkor.net sbcl git gateway still happily rsyncs everything 03:11:34 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 03:11:38 so rsync each repo to your local disk, and run whichever conversion script you need off that 03:11:40 Oh, that's true; I forgot that rsync is still working. 03:12:34 it's even better when you have it all locally. faster. (: 03:12:41 "we can rebuild it" (: 03:12:46 kei-clone [~kei-clone@cpe-24-24-85-1.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:13:20 Maybe the attack was really done by SF as a ploy to end-of-life CVS! 03:13:40 let's say it was very conveniently timed (-: 03:13:57 now, if they declare a war on inferior VCSes... 03:14:20 you might start looking out for any government contractors that offer repo conversion services. 03:16:35 rtoym: So the problem is with SourceForge? I tried to checkout one apps sources yesterday and neither CVS nor Git worked... 03:16:51 *rtoym* goes back to figuring out what to with matlisp and f2cl, and how to get the correct series git repo uploaded. 03:17:09 cvs problems are definitely sourceforge turning off cvs access for an as-yet unbounded time. 03:17:20 peterhil: SF CVS is done, but git is supposed to be working. 03:17:23 (and they say tumblr's uptime is bad (-:) 03:17:31 :_) 03:17:32 Er, down, not done. :-) 03:18:27 -!- davazp [~user@15.Red-83-57-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:18:47 for other stuff, better check the sf.net service status page 03:18:55 dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:56 (I have no idea where that lives now) 03:23:28 There seems to be some info on their blog: http://sourceforge.net/blog/ On the bottom is also a description of the attack towards SF 03:23:45 They expect CVS to be back online at the end of the week 03:24:14 And they are checking commits and data againsta backups 03:24:17 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-viwjqsriebnedwns] has joined #lisp 03:24:53 oconnore [~eric@ip68-230-164-105.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:25:35 who would have guessed that c-l.net's CVS server would outlast sf.net's... 03:27:43 not me (: 03:27:43 -!- kei-clone [~kei-clone@cpe-24-24-85-1.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:29:39 -!- dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-76-239.xnet.hr] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 03:29:54 dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-76-239.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 03:29:56 Do we want people associating CL with CVS? 03:29:58 really? 03:30:31 no more (: 03:30:45 projects are getting ready to switch to something less awful 03:31:06 switching takes energy though, so it'll take a while 03:31:24 If you need help, I've converted from pretty much every other VCS. 03:31:38 Remember: that's what sucked the energy out of LibCL. 03:32:03 one-way conversions to git are fairly easy 03:32:13 converting any single project isn't too hard, IME (and I've been running the sbcl cvs->git gateway for a few years) 03:32:19 it still takes time though 03:33:18 meta q: how much is AWS costing you per year? 03:33:18 psilord2 [~psilord@adsl-99-153-135-105.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:33:20 -!- psilord2 [~psilord@adsl-99-153-135-105.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 03:33:41 I've heard people like it, but it doesn't look that cheap to me. 03:33:49 me, not very much. I started running a micro instance after they became free for a year (: 03:34:03 yeah, but next year... 03:34:24 then it will still be cheaper than most other things I can think of 03:34:52 but I use it only for fun, so am not the best person to ask... Xach uses AWS for quicklisp, he has actual users (: 03:36:24 http://calculator.s3.amazonaws.com/calc5.html?key=my-free-website says your "free site" will be almost $40/month next year. A lot of VPS solutions become available in that price range. 03:36:36 but I'm getting OT 03:36:36 yeah well 03:36:42 I'll think about that when I get there 03:36:45 so far, this works for me (: 03:38:25 -!- myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:39:13 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@74.209.54.217] has joined #lisp 03:45:55 kei-clone [~kei-clone@cpe-24-24-85-1.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:46:13 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:49:39 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 03:50:46 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 03:50:46 -!- kei-clone [~kei-clone@cpe-24-24-85-1.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:51:58 kei-clone [~kei-clone@cpe-24-24-85-1.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:55:10 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:55:26 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 03:56:19 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:57:04 bah! alexandria's copy-array doesn't give me back a simple array, when I started with one. bogus... 04:00:44 wakeup [~max@p5790FFAB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:00:51 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 04:02:00 copy-array type things are actually very hard to get right 04:02:16 Type erasure is one of the big problems converting C++ templates to Java generics. 04:02:35 You can't look at an array and know what the copy should look like. 04:03:18 e.g. What numeric type should an array of zeros have? 04:04:02 -!- mathguru123 [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:04:04 -!- wakeup_ [~max@p5DE8E1EE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:04:15 ... But... it's not an integer type, it's a pointer type! 04:04:24 -!- am0c [~am0c@180.224.41.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:04:38 ?? I'm missing some context. 04:04:49 am0c [~am0c@180.224.41.34] has joined #lisp 04:05:25 C arrays become pointers when they're used as values. 04:05:44 Thus, an array of anything has a pointer type, not a numeric type. 04:05:51 Silly joke, really. 04:05:57 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:05:59 right over my head 04:06:13 laughing anyway 04:06:14 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 04:07:56 c0a8 [~joel@c-24-126-226-255.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:08:58 yeah C is a joke, i agree nyef 04:08:58 -!- kei-clone [~kei-clone@cpe-24-24-85-1.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:09:16 That's... not what I said. 04:09:24 nyef: that said you can use an integer as an array, as long as you use an array (or a pointer) as index: 2["abc"] --> 'b' 04:09:24 Or, at least, not what I was referring to. 04:09:29 'c' I mean. 04:09:29 practical prank pulled on electrical engineers every day in universities across the world 04:09:34 in my case copying the array is easy, so I'll do it by hand instead of relying on alexandria's invocation of adjust-array 04:09:42 pjb: Been there, done that... and got paid for it. 04:11:00 kei-clone [~kei-clone@cpe-24-24-85-1.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:11:00 Cute c code: "int x=4; int *y=&x;" Look! Now y is an array of length 1, and y[0]=4!!! 04:11:40 As the dominant language for ~20 years, C is far from a joke. Unless you call assembly language a joke... 04:11:49 ... except that y isn't an array of length 1, it's a pointer to a single element of contiguously-allocated storage. 04:12:06 (All one element of the storage is allocated contiguously.) 04:12:13 but that's all you get in C. In C++, it can be much better. 04:12:25 Let's not go there? 04:12:51 I just wanted to point out the problem with type erasure is a difficulty of dynamic languages. 04:13:08 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 04:13:09 Don't push me to remembering the STL... 04:13:37 I will do it if provoked. ;) 04:18:15 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:18:30 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 04:22:04 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:22:21 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 04:26:02 Guest61365 [~Adium@he190123.dsl.fsr.net] has joined #lisp 04:26:03 -!- kei-clone [~kei-clone@cpe-24-24-85-1.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:26:25 mathguru123 [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:28:38 -!- pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:31:38 jga [~gajon@189.217.206.66] has joined #lisp 04:31:46 FYI, we're back on an upswing: http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/paperinfo/tpci/Lisp.html 04:32:49 super__ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 04:34:38 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:35:14 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:36:11 that's quite an upswing 04:36:58 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:40:11 Wow 04:41:10 -!- moore33 [~moore@ABordeaux-153-1-30-66.w92-149.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:41:29 pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 04:42:25 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:42:42 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 04:45:07 kei-clone [~kei-clone@cpe-24-24-85-1.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:51:23 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 04:53:13 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:53:35 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 04:54:05 moore33 [~moore@ABordeaux-153-1-14-244.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 04:59:58 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:01:56 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 05:02:56 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 05:02:57 -!- kei-clone [~kei-clone@cpe-24-24-85-1.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:05:03 kei-clone [~kei-clone@cpe-24-24-85-1.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:06:07 sharps [~hazel@ip-118-90-82-239.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:06:08 -!- kei-clone [~kei-clone@cpe-24-24-85-1.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:06:29 join #lisp-nz 05:06:34 DAMMIT 05:07:02 -!- rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 05:07:43 kei-clone [~kei-clone@cpe-24-24-85-1.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:09:11 -!- jga [~gajon@189.217.206.66] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:11:14 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-105-242.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 05:14:11 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:15:35 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 05:15:35 -!- kei-clone [~kei-clone@cpe-24-24-85-1.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:16:42 kei-clone [~kei-clone@cpe-24-24-85-1.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:17:55 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:17:55 -!- kei-clone [~kei-clone@cpe-24-24-85-1.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:19:42 kei-clone [~kei-clone@cpe-24-24-85-1.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:20:10 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:21:02 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:45 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:23:00 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-54-21.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 05:23:00 -!- kei-clone [~kei-clone@cpe-24-24-85-1.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:24:05 kei-clone [~kei-clone@cpe-24-24-85-1.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:24:34 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 05:29:47 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 05:31:13 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-71-161-64-51.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 05:38:44 early 2010 was folks trying out clojure and then later in the year deciding the don't really like the jvm? 05:39:53 -!- NihilistDandy [~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:39:53 -!- kei-clone [~kei-clone@cpe-24-24-85-1.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:40:25 I don't know how to read that graph. Actually, it somewhat looks like sampling noise. 05:40:46 kei-clone [~kei-clone@cpe-24-24-85-1.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:41:13 I don't think the ILC drove that much traffic. ;) 05:43:05 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:43:22 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 05:43:58 -!- csamuelson [~csamuelso@adsl-240-246-114.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:45:47 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:46:53 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-158-125.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: "Object-oriented design" is an oxymoron] 05:46:54 -!- kei-clone [~kei-clone@cpe-24-24-85-1.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:51:17 nostoi [~nostoi@155.Red-79-151-107.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 05:54:37 NihilistDandy [~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:58:02 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@155.Red-79-151-107.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 06:00:05 bytecolor [~user@c-98-208-24-228.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:00:43 nuntius: I am wondering whether there is a correlation between the upswing and mega1 winning the Google AI Challenge. 06:01:08 eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 06:01:18 -!- bytecolor [~user@c-98-208-24-228.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 06:03:30 astoon [~astoon@109.188.225.155] has joined #lisp 06:04:14 Finally... Emacs keybindings sorted 06:05:23 kei-clone [~kei-clone@cpe-24-24-85-1.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:09:00 -!- kei-clone [~kei-clone@cpe-24-24-85-1.stny.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 06:09:54 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-dlxlbzjyrlgyqssh] has joined #lisp 06:15:22 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.228.29.205] has quit [Quit: ] 06:17:49 beach: I added a gamma function, which made me realize that we're going to want floating point images and routines to convert them back and forth to integer images. added floating point image types. 06:18:09 Excellent! 06:18:50 single and double seem like enough to me. do you think we need short- and long-float too? 06:19:01 I don't. 06:19:02 sako [~sako@unaffiliated/sako] has joined #lisp 06:19:09 hey guys what are your thoughts on this book: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 06:19:13 slyrus: I mean, *I* don't need them. 06:19:15 beach: possible, but the TIOBE spike appears to start before Gabor's win. (August vs December) 06:19:18 possibly vs SICP? which one would you all recommend? 06:19:18 sako: good book 06:19:25 sako: it is an excellent book 06:19:29 sako: it rocks 06:19:29 SICP is more schemy and theoretical 06:19:37 schemey 06:19:39 sako: if you know programming already, this is the book to use if you want to learn common lisp 06:19:55 i always hear oh if you want to be a super duper programmer read SICP blah blah 06:20:00 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:20:10 so far ive taken one class that was mostly in scheme.. 06:20:22 SICP is a good intro to programming, and to scheme. but scheme and common lisp aren't very close, apart from some superficial similarities. 06:20:32 i do program with python, php, java for a living :) 06:20:59 if i want to read both.. any order i should read em in? 06:21:01 Scheme encourages a more functional style. CL encourages "bad behavior" such as unhygienic looping macros. 06:21:04 slyrus: Wow. It's really coming along, huh? 06:21:23 that's cool. if you think the exercises in PCL are interesting, then I am pretty sure you will enjoy it! 06:21:25 NihilistDandy: yes, it's getting there. check out the github page. 06:21:58 sako: If you want the theory, go SICP. If you want to jump right in, go with PCL 06:22:04 whats a good interpreter for OSX? 06:22:06 sako: I thought it was pretty cool to build a streaming media server back when I read it, so I think it's an awesome book (: 06:22:09 I would do PCL before SICP. 06:22:15 sako: Get SBCL with Homebrew 06:22:21 yay (-: 06:22:22 sako: or CCL or Clisp 06:22:23 homebrewwwwwwww 06:22:26 i love homebrew ;) 06:22:36 Homebrew is the best package manager I've ever seen 06:22:36 I <3 homebrew (and I made the sbcl formula (-:) 06:22:37 Bar none 06:22:40 brew install sbcl 06:22:45 NihilistDandy: agreed.. 06:22:47 antifuchs: I am in heart with you so bad right now 06:22:50 (the updated one, that is (:) 06:22:50 i was thinking about switching to Ubuntu 06:22:52 sako: [warning, extreme opinions ahead] SICP is one of those books that, when read by people with a few decades of programmin experience, they invariably think it is the *right way* to present things to people who have never progremmed before. 06:22:54 NihilistDandy: yayy (: 06:23:00 and then i found homebrew and macvim :) 06:23:18 but i guess most of you here would use emacs? 06:23:20 *sako* ducks 06:23:31 don't hurt me. 06:24:06 sako: It is fine with us if you want to waste your time on unproductive tools :) 06:24:09 yeah, emacs works really well with lisp, especially if you use slime (: 06:24:10 sako: Emacs with Quicklisp will serve you much better than macvim in this case :D 06:24:34 sako: viper mode in emacs isn't so bad... 06:24:52 hehe 06:24:53 come to the dark side, we have cookies 06:25:11 ugh im too used to vim :/ 06:25:15 feel the temptation of slime and/or org-mode... 06:25:18 i gotta give emacs another shot though :) 06:25:22 sharps: Where are you located? 06:25:23 you know you want ot 06:25:24 *to 06:25:31 New Zealand, why? 06:25:38 what was the gui emacs on mac? 06:25:47 i guess its on homebrew nvm :) 06:25:48 I knew that much. Where in NZ? I spent a year there. 06:25:52 sako: Do yourself a favor and fix the key-bindings, though 06:25:54 die-hard vi users can try things like http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=2531 06:25:56 Christchurch 06:26:02 sako: aquamacs? 06:26:03 like what Dandy? 06:26:21 sharps: i dont like that one... i like Cocoa Emacs 06:26:30 sako: I recommend the command line version of emacs, actually. Aquamacs seems to hate finding anything in /usr/local/bin :/ 06:26:41 ya 06:26:43 sako: By default, Esc is the meta key 06:26:44 aquamacs sucks 06:27:02 sako: So you should change it to be option or Cmd 06:27:03 ok, I won't recommend it to mac users in future 06:27:07 eh i guess it wont hurt to know both vim and emacs LOL 06:27:10 this will be fun :) 06:27:16 :D 06:27:28 sako: Do you use Terminal.app or iTerm? 06:27:34 terminal 06:27:44 i tried iterm.. couldn't get into it.. went back to terminal 06:28:12 Preference -> Settings -> Keyboard -> tick the "Use option as meta key" box 06:28:17 *Preferences 06:28:26 Saves a lot of reaching 06:28:32 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.253.154.71] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 06:30:25 Also, for anyone who hasn't heard of it before: http://en.literateprograms.org/LiteratePrograms:Welcome 06:31:26 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:34:06 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-viwjqsriebnedwns] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:34:30 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-enjwiqjkvfoxtymh] has joined #lisp 06:35:06 where can i read up on how to use SBCL :) 06:35:32 NihilistDandy: thanks for the tip.. i had that turned on already :) 06:35:41 Awesome :D 06:35:47 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 06:35:57 http://www.sbcl.org/manual/index.html 06:36:01 sako: Using SBCL is pretty much like using any other ANSI-conforming implementation. 06:36:19 sako: If you want specifics for getting up and running on OS X, just shoot me a query 06:36:23 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:36:31 sako: Are you looking for any particular extension? 06:36:43 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 06:37:09 ya i gotta read up on what it is :) 06:37:18 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has joined #lisp 06:46:53 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 06:56:27 Krystof [~csr21@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:00:29 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:02:14 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:02:31 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 07:09:07 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:09:15 good morning 07:09:25 hello mvilleneuve 07:09:39 mvilleneuve: I added some stuff to the LOOP code. 07:09:51 mvilleneuve: Any plans to work on it this week? 07:14:19 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 07:14:50 -!- mathguru123 [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:16:24 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has joined #lisp 07:16:24 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has quit [Changing host] 07:16:24 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 07:21:12 beach: yes, I've seen your commit message 07:21:59 beach: I'll probably spend some time on it today - do you have any directions or priorities? 07:22:06 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 07:22:06 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 07:22:06 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:22:51 mvilleneuve: It's OK with me if you want to continue working on code generation. There is also the semantic analysis of each clause, like veryifying that there are no duplicate variables and such. 07:23:34 mvilleneuve: The latter, I would do as a generic function to map over the clauses. 07:25:19 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 07:25:57 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:26:25 beach: OK, I'll probably start with (re)reading some parts of the CLHS 07:28:09 NDerc [~user@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:28:31 Just had to try ERC :D 07:29:05 -!- NDerc [~user@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:30:02 Experiment over 07:31:07 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-77-24.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:34:19 malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl5-19-253.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 07:34:28 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Quit: Linkinus is updating...] 07:34:49 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 07:34:58 NihilistDandy: You are not using ERC normally? What do you use for spell checking, abbrevs, incremental search, etc? 07:36:09 I'm using a GUI client called Textual. 07:37:08 I'm not entirely enmeshed in Emacs, yet, so I don't do everything there 07:37:25 A little more time, and I'll probably do nearly everything in Emacs 07:37:35 I am glad that things like spell checking, abbrevs, and incremental search now make it into other programs as well, in particular Textual. 07:37:53 Mmhmm 07:38:38 beach: heh, os x gets you these things in a lot of programs indeed (: 07:38:48 antifuchs: Sure does :D 07:38:57 Excellent! 07:39:10 (standard widgets and accessibility features are awesome (-:) 07:39:25 anyway. way past my bedtime! good night, everyone (: 07:39:31 'night antifuchs 07:39:43 Night, antifuchs 07:40:31 mvilleneuve: That's a good plan! :) 07:43:43 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-54-21.monradsl.monornet.hu] has left #lisp 07:44:24 -!- c0a8 [~joel@c-24-126-226-255.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:47:30 -!- sako [~sako@unaffiliated/sako] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:50:39 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 07:51:01 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA246FB.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:58:50 zickzackv [~zickzackv@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:00:39 -!- clog [~nef@bespin.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:02:04 -!- whee [~whee@misplaced.smaertness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:02:32 -!- pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:02:44 pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 08:04:10 -!- malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl5-19-253.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:04:22 malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl5-19-253.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 08:04:33 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@74.209.54.217] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:06:53 lakatos [53a6d29d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.83.166.210.157] has joined #lisp 08:07:00 hey guys 08:07:08 hello lakatos 08:07:47 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 08:07:59 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@74.209.54.217] has joined #lisp 08:08:14 http://symbo1ics.com/blog/?p=952 08:08:59 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 08:10:18 -!- pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:10:27 I'm new to Common Lisp 08:10:55 lakatos: What made you decide to learn? 08:11:04 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 08:11:56 Can anyone recommend a good book to learn from? 08:12:08 lakatos: Do you know any programming already? 08:12:13 Oh, I don't really know 08:12:22 I mean yes :)) 08:12:23 minion: Please tell lakatos about PCL. 08:12:24 lakatos: please look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 08:13:22 Joreji [~thomas@64-251.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 08:14:12 I learned Pascal in highschool, and learned some Basic and Python 08:14:41 Now I'm at University learning C++ 08:14:41 lakatos: You might also consider SICP and Scheme to start. 08:15:19 lakatos: PCL is good for people who have already programmed some. 08:15:21 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 08:15:26 greaver [~joachim@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 08:15:58 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-epddnqzevoedpnmt] has joined #lisp 08:16:50 -!- Krystof [~csr21@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:17:55 When learning Python I was introduced to Haskell. Learning that a little I heard about Lisp, checked it out, and fell in love :)) 08:18:32 lakatos: It sounds like you are experienced enough for PCL. 08:19:01 Looks like an interesting book 08:19:16 Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has joined #lisp 08:19:20 i probably have all of the chapter titles memorized 08:19:24 i don't know if that's good or bad. 08:19:52 Web Programming with Lisp? 08:20:09 minion: Please tell lakatos about Hunchentoot! 08:20:09 lakatos: direct your attention towards Hunchentoot: Hunchentoot is a robust and easy to use HTTP server. http://www.cliki.net/Hunchentoot 08:20:27 I will never get over that name :D 08:20:56 :)) I can't even pronounce it correctly 08:21:07 The icon thing is even better. 08:21:36 NihilistDandy: Your ignorance of 20th century music composers is showing. 08:21:41 lakatos: I wrote this in an hour from knowing 0 about hunchentoot, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2ldazFtrbU 08:22:12 (you need to enlarge it, or fullscreen unfortunately) 08:22:24 beach: I could never forget Zappa 08:23:28 looks neat 08:23:56 Also, which compiler should I use? SBCL? Clisp? 08:24:01 Quadrescence: That's pretty cool 08:24:03 I'm running Linux 08:24:27 lakatos: SBCL or CLISP 08:24:33 they're both fine. 08:24:43 I vote for SBCL 08:24:46 *NihilistDandy* shrugs 08:26:05 Will AllegroServe work on CLISP? 08:27:22 :)) is mega1 Gabor Melis? 08:27:40 lakatos: Yup 08:28:02 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:28:34 Yay, a fellow Magyar 08:29:02 What are your thoughts on The Land of Lisp? 08:30:19 Just downloaded a copy today. Giving it a read, considering showing it to someone I'm trying to get into Lisp 08:30:50 mega1 [~user@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 08:34:26 -!- malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl5-19-253.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:34:27 malbertife_ [~marcoalbe@bl5-19-253.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 08:34:32 lakatos: my thoughts are: LOL 08:35:00 lol. That bad, huh? 08:35:11 I sww what you did there adu :)) 08:35:11 Land Of Lisp 08:35:13 see* 08:35:19 oh, lol 08:35:36 no, I loved it actually 08:35:46 Carrying on a dozen conversations really wrecks my ability to recognize subtext at 3 in the morning, it seems :D 08:35:54 I thought it was very illustrative, and funny, hence the lol for lol 08:36:08 Ah, I read it as more derisive. :D 08:36:23 nope, it was meant as a compliment :) 08:36:47 It caught my eye because I love games :D 08:36:49 Well, that's one more reason I may have to pass it along to my friend, then 08:37:14 Actually, I may have to give it to someone else, too. I got an email in the middle of the night a few nights ago 08:37:20 "Wanna help me write a MUD?" 08:37:25 That was it. 08:37:34 Just that? 08:38:02 Yup. Might try to bring him over to Lisp with this as an excuse :D 08:38:32 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-enjwiqjkvfoxtymh] has left #lisp 08:38:43 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-enjwiqjkvfoxtymh] has joined #lisp 08:38:54 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:38:58 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 08:39:05 Is everyone here in this channel a lisper? Or is the majority here made out of bots? 08:39:22 most are real 08:39:34 real bots that write real lisp! 08:39:44 beach is one of the AI bots in training 08:39:52 (written in lisp of course) 08:40:07 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 08:40:08 You're just joking now, right? 08:40:28 I am not a bot, I prefer the term "electronically composed". 08:40:37 Corporeally challenged 08:40:53 (just installed the #:TURING-TEST package today) 08:41:42 Ok, I have one last question for today and then I'm off to steel some banks ;) 08:42:15 Is there a site with problems or stuff so I can exercise my Lisp muscle? 08:42:22 Ask before the old crankier lispers of the channel wake up 08:42:28 lakatos: maybe L-99 08:42:33 lakatos: You could try Project Euler 08:42:46 http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~meidanis/courses/mc336/2006s2/funcional/L-99_Ninety-Nine_Lisp_Problems.html 08:43:35 Thanks 08:43:44 See you later then 08:44:06 -!- lakatos [53a6d29d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.83.166.210.157] has quit 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[~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:22:08 <|nix|``> hey beach 11:27:54 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-lsajinviioaruksz] has joined #lisp 11:27:54 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-lsajinviioaruksz] has quit [Changing host] 11:27:54 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 11:28:53 -!- slash_ [~unknown@pD955A67F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:31:15 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082BD9A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:31:24 daniel [~daniel@p5082BD9A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:31:49 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:32:37 Yuuhi [benni@p5483B12C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:33:15 malbertife_ [~marcoalbe@gw-e-U-EdII.nat.fct.unl.pt] has joined #lisp 11:35:34 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.80.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:36:09 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.63.133] has joined #lisp 11:36:19 -!- malbertife 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quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:24:39 ehu [~ehuels@109.33.111.62] has joined #lisp 12:25:18 astoon [~astoon@109.188.251.148] has joined #lisp 12:25:19 sharps1 [~hazel@ip-118-90-82-239.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 12:27:14 -!- sharps [~hazel@ip-118-90-82-239.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:33:51 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:35:20 setmeaway [~setmeaway@183.106.96.22] has joined #lisp 12:42:22 MoALTz [~no@92.2.82.175] has joined #lisp 12:42:25 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.218] has joined #lisp 12:45:31 jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-60-195.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:47:49 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:48:05 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 12:48:13 -!- sharps1 [~hazel@ip-118-90-82-239.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has left #lisp 12:49:08 -!- jstypo [~jstypo@190.39.219.179] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:49:32 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:50:18 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.33.111.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:50:42 mathguru123 [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:54:57 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-135-110.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 12:56:52 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:56:55 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-enjwiqjkvfoxtymh] has left #lisp 12:57:39 Do you get Rainer Joswig's "blog" at http://lispm.dyndns.org/standard-output/standard-output.html ? 12:57:58 -!- malbertife [~marcoalbe@gw-e-U-EdII.nat.fct.unl.pt] has quit [Quit: malbertife] 12:58:44 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-usgsupiadvsgjtbu] has joined #lisp 12:58:46 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:00:17 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-usgsupiadvsgjtbu] has left #lisp 13:00:18 silenius [~silenus@p4FC22567.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:00:47 malbertife [~marcoalbe@gw-e-U-EdII.nat.fct.unl.pt] has joined #lisp 13:01:40 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:03:03 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 13:03:20 chrnybo`: I can't connect. 13:04:21 jstypo [~jstypo@190.39.219.179] has joined #lisp 13:04:26 -!- super__ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:04:50 -!- mathguru123 [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:05:07 AFAIK the site has been down for days. Somewhat odd. 13:06:23 greaver [~joachim@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 13:10:23 azaq231 [~derivecto@p4FF68C75.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:10:32 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 13:10:47 krappie__ [~brain@mx.skitzo.org] has joined #lisp 13:10:59 -!- jstypo [~jstypo@190.39.219.179] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:11:00 -!- azaq231 [~derivecto@p4FF68C75.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Changing host] 13:11:00 azaq231 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 13:12:02 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:12:34 -!- azaq231 is now known as derivector_azaq2 13:12:41 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-77-24.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:12:49 -!- derivector_azaq2 is now known as derivector 13:12:57 -!- derivector is now known as azaq23 13:13:53 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:13:58 mathguru123 [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:14:18 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 13:16:02 chrnybo`: DynDNS allows you to use a provided domain name, even with a dynamic IP address. Dynamic IPs are usually used by ISPs to forego assigning specific IPs to user accounts. 13:16:27 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-94-44-97-244.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 13:16:50 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:17:46 chrnybo`: So it's usually not a big professional server hosting his "blog". 13:18:02 usually = likely 13:18:21 Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 13:19:17 Nah, I suppose it's a Mac Mini in a cupboard, in a nice house in a beautiful garden outside of Hamburg, Germany. 13:20:25 ... which is why I avoided saying PC. :) 13:21:28 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-71-9.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 13:22:07 -!- zickzackv [~zickzackv@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.50.1] 13:22:33 hello splittist 13:22:50 -!- mathguru123 [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:23:01 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:23:06 LiamH [~healy@129-2-134-55.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 13:23:06 zickzackv [~user@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 13:23:16 did you ask for the screencast of slime-project last saturday ? 13:23:33 kiuma: ooh, what 13:23:37 's slime-project? 13:23:47 http://www.wingstech.it/kiuma/slime-project/ 13:24:20 souces are here: https://github.com/kiuma/slime-project 13:25:02 jstypo [~jstypo@190.39.219.179] has joined #lisp 13:25:02 I've to work on the video with blender VSE, so I've not put in on youtube yet, sorry for the huge file 13:25:03 nyef [~nyef@pool-71-161-64-51.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 13:25:16 G'morning all. 13:25:44 'lo nyef 13:26:37 JuniorRoy [~JuniorRoy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 13:27:11 kaek [~b@c-70cae253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 13:29:42 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:30:31 mathrick, It a derivation of quickproject that allows updates to a system definition and may interact with emacs 13:31:02 sounds interesting 13:31:22 kiuma: Is "derivation" different from "fork" in this context? 13:31:37 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:32:24 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-171-12-242.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:32:55 chrnybo`, currently it might be a fork, because I needed something different. But I'll soon complietly diverge from quickproject because I want to add also templeting capabilities to it 13:33:23 kiuma: it was me. What do I need to play this file? 13:33:41 I use mplayer 13:33:48 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:33:58 splittist: any reasonably modern video player 13:34:05 splittist, if you don't have it I can produce an mpg 13:34:24 on linux/gnome, totem should work if you have codecs installed 13:34:43 splittist, I didn't know this format till this morning too :) 13:35:38 slime-project, is not anything spectacular now :) but I'll soon add some handy capabilities. 13:36:19 I'll use it for developing claw project and creating them quickly 13:37:01 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 13:38:31 drdo` [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 13:39:07 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:39:11 -!- drdo` is now known as drdo 13:40:34 torbjornm [~tm@158.39.208.102] has joined #lisp 13:42:39 jweiss [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:42:52 kiuma: just syncing between *.lisp files and what's mentioned in .asd is handy 13:44:47 mathrick, thanks 13:44:52 kiuma: interesting. (I think there might be a missing "separated by" before "spaces" somewhere.) 13:45:04 *splittist* realised he had vlc just sitting there 13:45:13 ewww, vlc 13:45:53 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 13:47:11 -!- astoon [~astoon@109.188.251.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:47:12 thx splittist, done 13:48:29 with templating, slime-project will be more interesting, but I think I'll need to add cl-ppcre dependency 13:49:56 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:50:07 -!- LiamH [~healy@129-2-134-55.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:50:09 LiamH1 [~healy@129-2-134-55.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 13:51:20 myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 13:52:28 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 13:53:31 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:53:55 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:14 -!- akimbo [~user@cpe-024-163-123-094.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:54:30 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:54:30 morning folks 13:55:41 I've a question about eval-when and a system. I've an external config file (i.e. not defined in a def system) the file contains an in-package call (the same package of the caller), but I have this issue: http://paste.lisp.org/display/119470 13:55:54 can anybody give me a suggestion ? 13:56:43 kiuma: Where's your defpackage? 13:57:14 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:57:56 hi 13:57:59 nyef: hi 13:58:11 nyef: 9 a.m. there? 13:58:17 kiuma: That looks like it's failing on the IN-PACKAGE form in SQL, not on your config file. 13:58:24 nyef, in package.lisp file http://paste.lisp.org/display/119470#1 13:58:30 Posterdati: Indeed. "9:00 AM". 13:59:13 kiuma: You probably need to put :serial t at the module level as well as the system level. 13:59:51 (Or, in this case, instead of the system level.) 14:00:27 ahh, I'll patch slime-project too then :) 14:01:15 Just make sure it fixes the problem, first. ^_- 14:01:15 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:01:19 nyef: east cost or west cost? 14:01:43 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:01:47 Posterdati: Now you've got me wondering... What west coast would be in this time zone? 14:02:04 nyef: who knows 14:02:41 nyef: I'm more "west coast" than you 14:02:52 nyef, serial on src module doesn't change the result 14:02:54 dmiles [~dmiles@74.209.54.217] has joined #lisp 14:02:58 nyef: surely 14:03:31 kiuma: Hrm. Did you reload the system definition? 14:04:39 -!- Joreji [~thomas@64-251.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:05:11 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@74.209.54.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:05:16 Yes, and I've tryed with depends-on too 14:06:05 -!- torbjornm [~tm@158.39.208.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:06:20 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:07:03 -!- _hramrach [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:07:17 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-159-169.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 14:07:21 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 14:07:22 I'm fairly sure that the config file thing is a red herring, given the error and backtrace. 14:09:19 _hramrach [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has joined #lisp 14:10:27 mmm... 14:10:37 ... It's too bad that FASLoad errors don't include the corresponding source form paths. 14:10:59 xan_ [~xan@117.61.17.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 14:11:14 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.218] has quit [Quit: Offline] 14:11:44 nyef, http://paste.lisp.org/display/119470#2 14:13:08 kiuma: It's a red herring: The backtrace shows that it's in LOAD-FASL-GROUP, meaning a compiled file, for a file called "sql", meaning not your config file. 14:14:00 mmm 14:14:05 let me see 14:15:20 Oh, and the actual erring form looks like part of an IN-PACKAGE expansion. 14:16:38 sql.lisp content is (in-package :claw-invoice) as for others 14:16:54 I try to see if I have any fasl around 14:18:28 I wrote this some days ago, it's a package which is a copy of :CL, but it replaces all (well, most, some byte operations are to be genericized) of the arithmetic functions with equivalent generic ones. It doesn't contain any other "overloading", just the standard funcs, but genericized. Comments/criticisms/patches welcome! https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/cl-generic-arithmetic/src 14:19:45 So *you're* to blame for that silly reddit thread. 14:19:53 >_> 14:20:14 Xach: No idea what you---oh wait, my bitbucket username 14:20:22 Xach: accept the mystery 14:22:00 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:22:01 In http://linuxfinances.info/info/lisposes.html there are a few lisp OS alternatives mentioned ... cClan, and/or just starting a lisp instead of an init. Does anybody know of currently active efforts in that direction? 14:22:22 panike [~nwp@fw.lmcg.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 14:22:26 there are on active efforts 14:22:37 on or no 14:22:54 Quadrescence: accept the mystery 14:22:58 damn you! 14:23:13 to the degree that cclan was ever a lispos effort (i don't think it was) then quicklisp is its successor. 14:23:24 flip214: FWIW, just a few weeks ago, Movitz booted up fine in a VM. However, CL:LOOP didn't work. 14:23:31 nyef, guess what ! I removed all my fasl files, and now it works 14:23:35 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 14:24:04 *kiuma* hates fasl files a bit 14:24:05 nothing it really publically active, but i suspect some people are still happilying playing with movitz and there is always nyef's mythical sbcl-on-iron 14:24:17 publicly, even 14:25:12 ... Not quite mythical: Patches available. But, while a neat hack, it wasn't really going anywhere useful. 14:25:20 rien_ [~rien_@rrcs-69-193-217-130.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:25:35 Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 14:25:54 it's a hack of mythic import! 14:26:00 Well, I might readily imagine having a lisp as a shell (already done, I know) ... but rewriting all of /sbin/ (network configuration, DHCP, Routes, keyboard layout, X server, GUI) etc. sound a bit ... optimistic 14:26:52 flip214: Ambitious, certainly. 14:27:04 what would be the benefit ? 14:27:14 Exactly! 14:27:59 -!- LiamH1 [~healy@129-2-134-55.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:28:00 :) 14:28:34 tecloOS! 14:29:07 nyef, I'll use the config loading tecnique to add templating to slime-project now that I know it works, thank you for your help 14:29:21 wubo_ [80f40907@gateway/web/freenode/ip.128.244.9.7] has joined #lisp 14:29:28 kiuma: No problem. Have fun with it. 14:29:29 *technique 14:29:29 hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 14:32:47 Joreji [~thomas@90-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:33:15 pmurias [~pawel@89-75-37-59.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 14:33:49 may i have two clos methods (sharing a name) with a different number of parameters? 14:33:54 pmurias: No. 14:34:04 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.218] has joined #lisp 14:34:14 pmurias: If they have a different number of required parameters, they must have different names. 14:34:22 CallToPower [~CallToPow@xdsl-92-252-46-237.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:34:27 is there a way to work around that? 14:34:28 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 14:34:41 pmurias: Sure! Use different names. 14:34:42 pmurias: What did you have in mind? 14:35:31 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:35:45 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 14:35:47 i'm compiling Perl 6 method calls to CLOS method calls 14:36:12 Sounds like the object systems are too different to do that. 14:36:49 make them all take &rest 14:36:56 do the argument processing yourself 14:37:25 invocant plus &rest could work 14:37:42 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-94-44-97-244.vodafone.hu] has left #lisp 14:37:48 question is why make them method at all then 14:37:51 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 14:38:28 pmurias: any link to look at yet? 14:38:59 -!- delYsid [~user@debian/developer/mlang] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:39:03 delYsid [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 14:39:37 flip214: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/blob/master/cl-backend/backend.lisp 14:39:53 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 14:39:54 thank you 14:39:57 -!- CallToPower [~CallToPow@xdsl-92-252-46-237.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: > /dev/null 2>&1] 14:40:08 -!- xinming [~hyy@122.238.78.123] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:40:27 -!- panike [~nwp@fw.lmcg.wisc.edu] has left #lisp 14:41:22 xinming [~hyy@122.238.75.235] has joined #lisp 14:42:20 flip214: it's my first lisp program so the code is likely very ugly ;) 14:42:46 -!- benny [~benny@i577A3786.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:42:47 never mind 14:43:38 -!- sacho [~sacho@82.137.66.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:43:48 tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has joined #lisp 14:44:11 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:46:48 davazp [~user@15.Red-83-57-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:49:22 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:50:44 -!- davazp [~user@15.Red-83-57-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:52:02 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:53:12 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:54:20 tcr1: is there something else that would do dispatching based on the type of the invocant faster? 14:54:26 -!- redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:55:47 astoon [~astoon@109.188.228.233] has joined #lisp 14:57:52 ehu [~ehuels@109.34.171.209] has joined #lisp 14:59:00 sacho [~sacho@82.137.66.18] has joined #lisp 14:59:15 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:59:38 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 14:59:45 Raykon [~user@194.210.228.239] has joined #lisp 15:00:33 does anyone know where/how a copy of Deuce (the Dylan Emacs/EINE/ZWEI successor) can be obtained? 15:00:43 pmurias: are you using built-in types in addition to user defined classes? 15:01:36 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:01:52 zmv [~daniel@c953305f.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 15:01:58 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:49 ah, apparently it's supposed to ship with open dylan 15:04:54 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:06:26 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-71-9.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:10:09 -!- Raykon [~user@194.210.228.239] has left #lisp 15:10:28 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:10:30 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:10:30 Raykon [~user@194.210.228.239] has joined #lisp 15:11:32 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:13:26 Intensity [6ia2pqq0lO@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 15:15:02 -!- JuniorRoy [~JuniorRoy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:23:24 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 15:25:08 milanj [~milanj_@77-46-249-102.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 15:26:14 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.34.171.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:26:15 felideon [~felideon@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 15:28:07 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-229-234.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:30:20 tcr2 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 15:30:26 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:30:31 adeht pasted "describe-policy-dependent-qualities" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/119475 15:30:55 is there something like this already in sbcl? 15:32:19 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 15:33:34 nikodemus: yes, does that make a difference? 15:34:50 jikanter [~a@66.146.192.42] has joined #lisp 15:34:50 -!- rien_ is now known as rien 15:35:20 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has left #lisp 15:36:11 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:36:18 nikodemus: but i could wrap the built-in types if it's a problem 15:36:20 -!- jdz [~jdz@host151-71-dynamic.54-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:37:01 leo2007 [~leo@117.28.10.211] has joined #lisp 15:38:58 ehu [~ehuels@109.33.162.114] has joined #lisp 15:40:05 hkr [~hkr@77.63.117.171] has joined #lisp 15:41:35 basimple [~basimple@122.47.130.47] has joined #lisp 15:42:27 Xach: You about? 15:42:50 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.218] has quit [Quit: Offline] 15:43:09 Hello. 15:43:19 Xach: http://pages.cs.brandeis.edu/~plotnick/clweb/ 15:43:31 -!- basimple [~basimple@122.47.130.47] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:44:49 Xach: (implicitly asking if maybe that can be quicklisp'd) 15:45:05 -!- Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:45:07 -!- felideon [~felideon@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has left #lisp 15:45:41 Xach: (and if you need an ASD for it, I'll happily make one, make sure everything is clean) 15:46:05 -!- xan_ [~xan@117.61.17.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:46:58 Quadrescence: Yes, I would need something that can be loaded with asdf to be able to include it in Quicklisp. And noting it at https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/issues would help too. 15:47:49 -!- orivej [~orivej@95-24-190-192.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:48:36 Xach: alright, thanks 15:49:55 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 15:50:50 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.33.162.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:51:03 davazp [~user@15.Red-83-57-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:51:08 if i have a list in the form ("a" a "b" b x y z) where a,b,x,y,z are not strings and i want to extract (("a" a) ("b" b")) and (x y z) is there a cleaner way then explicit recursion? 15:51:26 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 15:51:30 -!- hkr [~hkr@77.63.117.171] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 15:51:59 ehu [~ehuels@109.33.162.114] has joined #lisp 15:52:14 pmurias: There are many ways to do it. You could write a state machine. 15:52:17 -!- Joreji [~thomas@90-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:52:41 orivej [~orivej@95-24-190-192.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 15:52:54 pmurias: do you mean you have a list made up of an unknown number of pairs followed by a unknown number of ? 15:53:31 -!- silenius [~silenus@p4FC22567.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:54:29 splittist: yes 15:55:05 beach: aroundp? 15:55:23 beach: in your CLIM3 hacking, have you looked at DUIM (the Dylan version of CLIM)? 15:55:34 Scott Mckay has said several times that he felt he got it right with DUIM and "third time's a charm", referring to DW -> CLIM -> DUIM. 15:56:43 milkpost [~milkpost@173-26-33-120.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 15:57:25 -!- astoon [~astoon@109.188.228.233] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:58:25 benny [~benny@i577A333E.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:58:25 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:59:48 mathrick: I have personally witnessed beach and Scott Mckay talking about this, fwiw. 16:00:08 splittist: i implemented it like that using recurssion: http://paste.scsys.co.uk/87148 16:00:14 splittist: oh, that's probably more than I could hope for :) 16:00:20 recursion 16:00:23 damn small Lisp world 16:01:06 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-dlxlbzjyrlgyqssh] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:01:07 mathrick: I guess you just recour into the same people/situations 16:01:13 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 16:03:45 why does circular-list-p in alexandria has (cons (car object) (cdr object)) as an initialization for slow? why not just object? 16:03:58 lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-17-116.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:04:25 https://gist.github.com/9e8c727a65b3b22c5b12 <- code 16:04:32 hi lichtblau 16:04:33 kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 16:04:40 Hello 16:05:09 freiksenet: so that it's not eq? 16:05:12 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 16:05:33 ah, okay. 16:05:39 stassats: thanks ) 16:06:38 although it could be done without consing 16:07:07 not eqness, but the whole thing 16:07:57 can't one do it like that? https://gist.github.com/e92e50e063631a9f6e68 16:07:59 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-60-195.iburst.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:09:14 freiksenet: this assumes that fast is a proper list 16:09:46 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 16:09:58 e.g. (circular-list-p '(1 . 1)) fails 16:11:39 ah, okay. 16:11:41 thanks again 16:12:08 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 16:12:25 xan_ [~xan@195.57.21.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:13:30 jdz [~jdz@87.4.39.18] has joined #lisp 16:15:10 astoon [~astoon@109.188.228.233] has joined #lisp 16:17:38 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:17:59 drdo 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quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:48:45 -!- davazp [~user@15.Red-83-57-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:50:38 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c332f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:47 hi 17:51:03 hi 17:51:06 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-epddnqzevoedpnmt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:55:15 -!- icbh [~icbh@ntszok054022.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:55:19 kraison [~kraison@70.90.182.149] has joined #lisp 17:55:23 -!- kraison [~kraison@70.90.182.149] has left #lisp 17:55:55 urandom__ [~user@p548A61CE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:09 *rtoym* finds a possible typo bug in slime. 17:56:32 tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has joined #lisp 17:57:28 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.218] has joined #lisp 17:57:30 Lycurgus [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:57:33 stassats: Can you take a look at slime-choose-overlay-region? In the cond for (equal pos '(:eof)), it has (list (1- (point-max)) (point-max)). Shouldn't that be values instead of list? 17:58:47 in emacs values are faked as lists 17:59:05 Ok. In xemacs, values are real values. 17:59:21 if you change it to values, does it work? 17:59:32 Yes, it works better. 18:00:00 ok, i'll change it 18:01:33 Thanks. 18:02:08 -!- benny [~benny@i577A333E.versanet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:02:16 -!- malbertife [~marcoalbe@gw-e-U-EdII.nat.fct.unl.pt] has quit [Quit: malbertife] 18:04:23 There was another issue, but I can't find it right now. Something about finding next/previous property change. 18:05:00 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:05:27 rtoym: do you have an estimate of how much slower quad-double is than single-double? I know that in oct the overhead of clos kind-of dominates; I am wondering what if it didn't. 10x? 8x? Chip dependent? 18:05:51 *prxq* uses oct every other day 18:06:06 prxq: Look at the oct page. There are some measurements. 18:06:19 oh ok, sorry 18:06:31 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.33.162.114] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:06:49 ehu [~ehuels@109.33.162.114] has joined #lisp 18:06:58 Does that answer your question? 18:07:21 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 18:07:51 pkhuong_ [~pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:08:41 Assuming I did the experiments right, a 1.42 GHz PPC is 100 times faster than a 1.5 GHz Sparc for quad-double sqrt. But the PPC version uses the fused multiply-subtract which is much faster than without. 18:08:49 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@183.106.96.22] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:08:55 -!- jstypo is now known as chiguire 18:09:04 setmeaway [setmeaway3@183.106.96.22] has joined #lisp 18:09:10 -!- chiguire [~jstypo@190.39.219.179] has quit [Changing host] 18:09:10 chiguire [~jstypo@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 18:09:22 and extrapolating from the QD/cmucl difference, a factor of 10 seems fair 18:09:44 -!- setmeaway [setmeaway3@183.106.96.22] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 18:09:54 -!- greaver [~joachim@212.88.117.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:10:00 setmeaway [setmeaway3@183.106.96.22] has joined #lisp 18:10:21 -!- chiguire [~jstypo@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:10:31 prxq: What? What do you mean QD/cmucl difference? 18:10:50 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@96.246.167.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:10:57 eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 18:11:09 -!- setmeaway [setmeaway3@183.106.96.22] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:11:16 hm. "Except for add and mul, Oct and CMUCL are within a few percent" 18:11:17 setmeaway [~setmeaway@183.106.96.22] has joined #lisp 18:12:04 stassats: In xemacs previous-single-char-property-change returns nil if there is no previous change. This causes an error when we try (goto-char nil) in slime-search-property. Any suggestions? 18:12:12 kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 18:12:41 prxq: Ok, but where does the "factor of 10" come from? 18:12:46 rtoym: so quad-double is about a 1000 times slower than double float? 18:13:17 no, sorry 18:13:21 masonium [~user@vpn.tgsmc.com] has joined #lisp 18:13:36 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.33.162.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:13:48 -!- kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:13:50 -!- OliverUv [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:14:29 rtoym: guard against nil in slime-search-property? 18:14:41 all the way between 36 and 1000, or even 13000, depending on the chip. Fair enough! 18:15:28 prxq: I don't follow. Where does 13000 come from? 18:16:09 stassats: Yes, I just did (goto-char (or (funcall foo) (point)). That might not be quite right, though. 18:16:09 rtoym: the square-root row of the ultrasparc timings 18:16:29 13400 to be precise 18:16:35 That's the time it took, not the time compared to a double-float. 18:16:57 *prxq* is maybe too tired :-) 18:17:08 OliverUv [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has joined #lisp 18:17:17 "The columns are times relative to a double-float."? 18:17:33 Oh, so they are! Sorry! 18:18:22 "oct" is quite an unfortunate name, it's notoriously hard to find with google 18:18:51 I should redo the timings with x86/sse2. That's probably more relevant nowadays. I do like, however, that the Lisp implementation is only a little bit slower than the C++ code. 18:19:20 yesterday I was looking for osicat, and got the impression that google doesn't like common-lisp.net 18:19:26 *stassats* found it only by using the text quoted by prxq 18:19:29 stassats: Sorry. danb contributed the name. I didn't think about the google effects. 18:19:38 rtoym: indeed! 18:19:58 I mean, it's great that it is only a little bit slower! 18:20:42 -!- oconnore [~eric@ip68-230-164-105.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:20:45 rtoym: VOPs might be able to exploit sse2 better. 18:21:02 I'm glad it works out for you. I do have a couple of changes that I need to upload. One affects qd signed zeroes. 18:21:08 I presume the real drag lies in the fact that the oct routines have branches 18:21:40 bsod1 [~osa1@188.56.130.212] has joined #lisp 18:21:49 i.e. there are ifs all around the place. 18:22:06 prxq: iirc, there are branch-free formulation, but they're often slower. 18:22:45 pkhuong: interesting! 18:23:17 Ragnaroek [5b0c6cab@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.12.108.171] has joined #lisp 18:23:29 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:23:37 at least, they were when I tested double doubles on SBCL ~5 years ago. 18:23:39 rtoym: it is indeed pretty useful to me. Thank you :-) 18:23:49 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 18:24:08 corruptmemory [~jim@96.246.167.18] has joined #lisp 18:24:53 Actually, there aren't that many branches. The code for qd add is pretty branch free. I think the drag is that there's like 50 FP operations to do the add, vs just 1 for a double-float. 18:25:23 rtoym: sounds plausible :-) 18:25:54 pkhuong_: Yes, some specialized vops would speed things up. I looked once for double-double, and I think the gain there would be small, if any. The gain would be much more for quad-double. 18:31:03 mathguru123 [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:05 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@12.252.217.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 18:32:27 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:19 -!- silenius [~silenus@p4FC22567.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:35:12 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:40:54 *Lycurgus* blew off "Oct" as either the game competition, octal, or whatever. Notorious? zounds like wrong word choice. "oct lisp" essentially returns nothing 18:42:24 Lycurgus: from context, I'm guessing that is short for octet 18:42:50 -!- mathguru123 [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:43:11 antifuchs, acknowledged 18:43:17 google thinks it's short for october 18:43:29 which it usually is. 18:43:54 prxq: please enlighten us! (-: 18:44:07 lift the veil of ambiguity! 18:44:10 well one thing it's not is a chinese syllable 18:44:31 Here is the definitive reason for the name. I asked here long ago for a name for my quad-double package. danb suggested oct (as a pun on 8 single-floats). I couldn't think of anything else, so there you have it. 18:44:55 on what/where oct is? It is here ==> http://common-lisp.net/project/oct/ 18:45:10 agh! ok then (: 18:45:32 the name sounds nice, imo. 18:46:07 it's pretty neat. translates pretty well to double-quad precision. 18:46:15 you just can't google it (: 18:46:47 fix google! 18:47:13 `"oct" quad float lisp' lists cliki on the third place 18:47:54 yeah, well. 18:48:03 seems pointless to me, why not just leave it on the other side of the FFI 18:48:13 Lycurgus: hm? 18:48:16 there is a reason why we don't name projects "mouse" or "keyboard" anymore. or "high-quality shaving products" 18:48:23 FFI is notorious! 18:48:26 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@96.246.167.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:48:38 *antifuchs* looks at "screen", growls 18:48:46 *Lycurgus* break out into Duran Duran. 18:48:49 for crashing everything in site and making debugging painful as hell 18:49:06 s/site/sight/ 18:49:12 particularly with callbacks 18:49:49 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:50:07 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 18:51:54 antgreen [~user@nat/redhat/x-fhnlcscvoeffyshp] has joined #lisp 18:53:06 carlocci [~nes@93.37.198.110] has joined #lisp 18:53:07 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 18:53:48 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:55:37 -!- dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-76-239.xnet.hr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:56:33 mathguru123 [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:41 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:56:46 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 18:58:28 benny [~benny@i577A333E.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:58:40 leave on the other fuckin side of the FFI and have common translator to whatevr the bignum pkg is 18:58:50 *a common 18:59:27 or other received lisp numerics pkg 18:59:42 -!- Lycurgus [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Exeunt IRC] 19:00:03 dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-65-101.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 19:01:56 jso [~user@wsip-70-164-99-62.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:39 great, someone throwing some idiotic comment like that and then cowardly diving away to dodge the flames. 19:03:25 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.82.93.50] has joined #lisp 19:04:17 relieves us from coping with the flames ourselves (: 19:04:33 malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl11-47-80.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 19:08:35 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:44 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:12:50 seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:56 mascotte_ [~mascotte_@AClermont-Ferrand-651-1-14-58.w86-200.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:14:46 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-26-33-120.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 19:17:07 -!- mascotte [p.scott@AClermont-Ferrand-651-1-18-225.w86-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:18:06 I didn't even understand what he was trying to say 19:20:33 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:20:36 drdo: http://trololololololololololo.com/ 19:20:39 basically 19:26:05 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:26:18 cheez [~Adium@206-248-177-146.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 19:26:30 -!- ymv [~imv@94.231.123.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:26:40 -!- pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:28:23 sanchaz [sanchaz@gateway/shell/shellium.org/x-zjejyulpnbljbjbg] has joined #lisp 19:28:26 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.56.130.212] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:28:30 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 19:30:53 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@183.106.96.22] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:31:06 milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw80ff67c7.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 19:32:28 silenius [~silenus@p4FC22567.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:15 billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 19:33:15 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Changing host] 19:33:15 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 19:33:46 setmeaway [~setmeaway@183.106.96.22] has joined #lisp 19:34:02 -!- malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl11-47-80.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:34:37 malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl11-47-80.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 19:34:47 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-105-242.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:36:26 using the power of lisp, i will cook a pizza 19:38:00 does it include ordering pizza on money earned while writing Lisp? 19:38:27 -!- myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:40:21 No, it includes making a joke about how lisp is so slow and I'm going to have to wait for this stop-the-world collection (oven preheating) to get over with 19:42:00 stassats: do you have an opportunity to offer me where I can make some money writing lisp 19:42:29 Fancy Florida? 19:42:35 Zürich? 19:43:51 Florida is mostly OK. Zurich... that is quite a bit away (though on a related note, I tried to apply for the RISC-Linz institute of the Uni. of J.K.) 19:44:24 uni linz is neat 19:44:25 you can make your own startup! 19:44:38 not much there, but it's one of the three habitable cities in austria (-: 19:45:02 antifuchs: They study the wildest (read: coolest) stuff there. 19:45:20 -!- weirdo [~sthalik@2001:5c0:1400:b::80b3] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:45:39 ... do they study the art of killing newsies, politicians and patent trolls? 19:46:30 Quadrescence: You can hang out with me if you come to Florida. 19:46:38 if that doesn't sell it for you, I don't know what would. 19:47:35 p_l|backup: well that's one thing I study, the other is symbolic computation 19:47:43 weirdo [~sthalik@sthalik.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 19:47:53 but the two are related! (wolfram research is a string link between the two) 19:48:58 Florida would be so much better right now than cold, tiring Minnesnowta 19:49:10 Quadrescence: I came from minnesota, too :) 19:49:46 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 19:51:01 Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-121-90.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:51:44 *p_l|backup* doesn't think he would survive in Florida after all, even if he was thinking of that when he was a young child 19:52:17 meanwhile my preferences went up north and then I learned enough about US laws to not want to go there ;-) 19:53:39 go do some lisping on a towel on a beach in front of the ocean with some pretty girls (and xach) around, sounds great 19:53:50 I am in frozen, snowy Maine. 19:54:16 Quadrescence: no xach. Only His Kennyness. 19:54:20 I have about -25C up here today. :P 19:54:32 sykopomp: haha 19:55:01 snowy areas make it easier on HVAC 19:55:44 Also make it easier on the workers having an excuse to break the power every once in a while :( 19:56:52 Quadrescence: that's why you should start by getting a nuclear reactor 19:57:13 p_l|backup: i do not know why i did not think of that 19:57:18 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:52 (ql:quickload :CL-NUCLEAR-REACTOR) 19:58:21 -!- silenius [~silenus@p4FC22567.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:58:26 -!- mathguru123 [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:58:31 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:58:48 -!- antgreen [~user@nat/redhat/x-fhnlcscvoeffyshp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:59:01 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 19:59:14 trebor_home [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 19:59:33 corruptmemory [~jim@96.246.167.18] has joined #lisp 20:00:48 that reminds me, gotta figure out the difference between :X and #:X 20:01:02 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:01:07 #: is uninterned 20:01:13 One of them is a keyword, the other is an uninterned symbol. 20:01:20 oh great 20:02:11 Joreji [~thomas@90-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:03:43 #:foo is apparently uninterned. 20:04:00 Ah, right. It might be interned somewhere, but it's SYMBOL-PACKAGE slot is NIL. 20:04:00 -!- malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl11-47-80.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:04:00 jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-23.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:04:11 minion: Thwap? 20:04:11 Thwap: THWAP! http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif and http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif (see also: http://www.unmutual.info/misc/sb_itsits.mp3 ) 20:04:22 -!- srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:04:27 Its SYMBOL-PACKAGE slot, sorry. 20:04:40 malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl11-47-80.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 20:09:03 srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 20:10:23 -!- deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:11:49 deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 20:12:27 -!- csamuelson [~csamuelso@173-14-110-121-nashville.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:13:03 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-121-90.wbs.co.za] has left #lisp 20:13:29 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 20:21:38 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-23.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:22:38 mathguru123 [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:10 -!- hun [~user@91-65-90-50-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:24:50 -!- orivej [~orivej@95-24-190-192.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:28:50 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 20:29:20 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 20:34:18 -!- malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl11-47-80.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:34:32 Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-121-90.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:34:47 malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl11-47-80.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 20:35:05 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:35:23 gabnet [~gabnet@16.195.197-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:55 _danb_ [~user@124-171-12-242.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 20:37:04 kraison [~kraison@c-67-170-49-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:08 -!- kraison [~kraison@c-67-170-49-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 20:38:30 -!- Guest48504 [79f3e1e2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.243.225.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:39:33 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:42:23 NihilistDandy [~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:03 ymv [~imv@94.231.123.31] has joined #lisp 20:47:14 -!- mathguru123 [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:49:14 -!- mega1 [~user@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:51:08 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:51:14 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:51:34 the ANSI test suite tests whether direct calls to SHARED-INITIALIZE after manually calling ALLOCATE-INSTANCE are rejected if the initarg list contains an initarg by the name NIL. 20:51:54 however, SHARED-INITIALIZE doesn't define exceptional situations 20:52:02 so, is the test bogus? 20:53:43 mathguru123 [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:22 antgreen [~user@nat/redhat/x-jeswjgqpmjhnumtt] has joined #lisp 20:54:46 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@212095007090.public.telering.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:56:43 -!- mascotte_ [~mascotte_@AClermont-Ferrand-651-1-14-58.w86-200.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 20:56:49 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 20:58:03 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-103-184.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 21:01:45 -!- splittist [~John@18.82.202.62.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: too deep, too late] 21:03:46 -!- redline6561 [~user@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:04:19 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has joined #lisp 21:04:53 Providing nice conditions is very boring :S 21:05:22 It is. 21:05:28 but worth it 21:05:59 Often the condition hierarchy is more complex than the object hierarchy of the program. 21:06:09 Indeed it is in this case 21:06:16 There's probably something wrong in it. 21:07:30 By the way, how do you handle accessor naming? 21:08:23 pjb: the condition hierarchy /is/ what is potentially wrong with it. 21:08:37 it's the definition of stuff that isn't within the normal flow of executino 21:08:43 anybody here who has an idea why SHARED-INITIALIZE should fail if one of its initarg names is NIL? 21:10:04 nil is a constant. 21:10:18 (hm, what is the actual code?) 21:10:21 antifuchs: well, so are all other keywords? 21:10:37 Perhaps we could find an automatic way to generate exceptional conditions? 21:10:50 antifuchs: well, it's actually that the ANSI test suite is testing that it does generate a program-error. 21:10:51 pjb: that process is called programming <-89 21:10:56 however, I see no reason 21:10:57 pjb: How would you go about doing that? It's very problem specific 21:11:10 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 21:11:11 (shared-initialize obj nil :a) 21:11:16 ehu: maybe defclass generates a function that has that initarg on its &key argument list 21:11:22 re-interning as it might 21:11:38 drdo: research is needed. Perhaps the solution will be strong AI, perhaps it can be found earlier. 21:11:42 that would translate to (def.. something (.. &key nil foo)) 21:12:00 Also &allow-other-keys could help, if nil is needed. 21:12:04 -!- Kovensky [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:12:07 well, the ansi tests are explicitly testing that it fails. 21:12:12 pjb: Yeah, well, that's the dream, replacing people 21:12:17 but ABCL - with my latest mods - doesn't. 21:12:35 ehu: ah, oh (: 21:12:38 however, reading the CLHS for SHARED-INITIALIZE, I'm not seeing any exceptional situations. 21:12:39 maybe it's forbidden, then (: 21:12:51 Marcux [~Adium@189.121.111.41] has joined #lisp 21:13:01 antifuchs: hehe. right, so I looked up the definition of a slot initarg name. 21:13:22 antifuchs: it can be any symbol, including NIL. 21:13:31 (explicitly stated) 21:13:33 so,... 21:13:50 I'm not getting why SHARED-INITIALIZE should reject that. 21:14:27 especially since all other input validation should happen in the sites calling SHARED-INITIALIZE 21:15:12 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:15:39 so, my question is: why would the ANSI test suite be testing this case? 21:16:55 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-103-184.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:18:17 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:20:09 *ehu* thinks he found out. 21:20:23 share! (: 21:21:53 I was reading the call to shared-initialize incorrectly: it was taking NIL as a required parameter, followed by an odd-elements long keyword list. 21:22:45 the other test *was* taking an even number of arguments (even though I thought it was odd), but it contains a list instead of a symbol in the keyword positions. 21:23:01 I'll rerun the tests now. 21:23:12 but I think it's all cleared up! 21:23:21 sorry for the disruption and thanks for your time! 21:23:23 heh, sounds plausible (: 21:23:29 no worries (: 21:25:13 -!- Ragnaroek [5b0c6cab@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.12.108.171] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:27:47 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-121-90.wbs.co.za] has left #lisp 21:28:57 ziga_ [~ziga@89.142.209.184] has joined #lisp 21:30:16 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.218] has quit [Quit: Offline] 21:32:28 schoppenhauer1 [~christoph@ppp-188-174-51-82.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 21:33:03 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:33:14 Kovensky [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has joined #lisp 21:38:09 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has left #lisp 21:38:46 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:39:05 Phantom_Hoover [~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486] has joined #lisp 21:39:38 -!- wubo [~user@c-68-55-91-8.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:42:34 homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-150-195.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:44:11 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-156-60.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:44:13 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:46:29 -!- homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-150-195.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:46:50 m55 [~user@207.178.208.5] has joined #lisp 21:47:12 -!- m55 [~user@207.178.208.5] has quit [Client Quit] 21:51:08 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-150-195.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:55:38 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:01:19 -!- sanchaz [sanchaz@gateway/shell/shellium.org/x-zjejyulpnbljbjbg] has left #lisp 22:04:30 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-105-242.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 22:04:50 -!- Raykon [~user@194.210.228.239] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:05:07 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:05:18 -!- NihilistDandy [~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:08:15 -!- ziga_ [~ziga@89.142.209.184] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:10:52 -!- leo2007 [~leo@117.28.10.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:11:41 Does SBCL use a "dataflow" framework to do things like liveness analysis, partial redundancy elimination, and other passes on the control flow graph? I don't see much mention of dataflow anywhere in SBCL, but this concept is all over "Compilers: Principles, Techniques, and Tools" 22:11:56 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 22:12:56 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:13:07 gonzojive: it does a mix of data and control flow analysis. 22:13:12 pmurias [~pawel@89-75-37-59.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 22:14:43 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 22:15:46 how can i get a stack trace in clisp? 22:16:26 type "help" in the debugger 22:16:40 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:16:45 pkhuong_: by "dataflow framework," I mean an algorithm that is defined by a domain (e.g. expressions), a direction (fwd or backward), a transfer function, a meet operator, and a boundary condition. a la page 10 of http://suif.stanford.edu/~courses/cs243/lectures/l2-handout.pdf 22:16:59 gonzojive: so do I. 22:18:09 gonzojive: most of the design work on Python was made while the domain was still being formalised, so it doesn't always fit exactly in the modern way of thinking about static analyses. 22:19:14 -!- sacho [~sacho@82.137.66.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:19:25 cool, so does the SBCL dataflow work by defining those 6 things for some property, and then there's some generic function that will run the CFG and annotate it with the property values? 22:19:30 no. 22:19:55 *nyef* starts paying attention. 22:19:55 Partly because CLOS is only baked in very late in the bootstrap process. 22:20:43 Partly because Python was written by luddites (or people who were targetting machines with different performance envelopes, for a more historically correct point of view) 22:21:04 so, what would be better, to write a compiler from scratch, or modernize Python? 22:21:23 isn't python to dynamic to any sensible static analysis? 22:21:28 s/to/too/ 22:21:47 * isn't python too dynamic to do any sensible static analysis? 22:21:52 I suspect that modernizing Python would entail rewriting a large portion of it from scratch. 22:21:56 pmurias: Python is SBCL and CMUCL's compiler. 22:22:12 stassats: I think you're going to get a better cost:benefit ratio by rewriting parts of python from scratch piecemeal. 22:22:17 "The Python Compiler for CMU Common Lisp". 22:22:21 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:22:30 I suppose I meant "generic function" in the more abstract sense. I'm just wondering if you can easily add a new dataflow property by defining a the meet operator, transfer function, etc. and then call SBCL to solve for your property at each program point 22:22:33 pkhuong_: i suspect too 22:23:02 not that i'm really planning 22:23:18 unless someone is paying 22:23:29 stassats: same here. 22:23:52 I still haven't given up on getting CLOS into cold-init so that it can be used throughout the compiler. If anyone else would like to join in the pursuit https://github.com/gonzojive/sbcl 22:23:58 runtime compilation of loop-free programs is where it's at ;) 22:24:05 *attila_lendvai* would welcome the python discussion on #sbcl much more, so that it's not lost in the noise of #lisp and he can follow it 22:24:21 gonzojive: there's no generic entry point or IR. 22:24:43 If you're looking into adding a pass to SBCL, it's mostly doable, especially if you can express it in terms of the type system. 22:24:50 Why is SBCL the most oft-promoted Lisp? 22:25:08 Joreji_ [~thomas@90-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:25:29 because it's cool 22:25:44 And, indeed, most of the work will be spent in defining meet and joins (computing type intersection and union), and in the transfer function (type deriving optimizers) 22:27:08 Mmm... One of the long-term project ideas I have in planning is a massive update of the compiler, with the idea that some of it might be worth doing whenever, and some of it might be worth seeing if someone wants to pay to have it done. 22:28:40 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:28:52 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 22:29:27 -!- pmurias [~pawel@89-75-37-59.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:29:30 kami`` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 22:30:39 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-229-234.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 22:30:39 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.215.201] has joined #lisp 22:31:41 -!- kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:31:46 -!- schoppenhauer1 [~christoph@ppp-188-174-51-82.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:32:05 -!- antgreen [~user@nat/redhat/x-jeswjgqpmjhnumtt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:33:58 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:36:34 ziga_ [~ziga@89.142.209.184] has joined #lisp 22:37:49 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:38:23 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 22:38:31 nyef: it's hard to imagine much in the way of funding coming SBCL's way any time soon. Though it might be nice if there were a fund that could put bounties on certain features or something 22:38:45 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:39:49 huangho [~vitor@201-66-210-6.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 22:40:28 Doesn't necessarily have to be /much/ funding. 22:41:07 nyef: We'll pay you in whuffie! 22:41:09 And even if it were just put out there, "pay me $X, and I'm willing to implement this", it might garner sufficient interest. 22:42:58 -!- milanj [~milanj_@77-46-249-102.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:43:08 -!- Marcux [~Adium@189.121.111.41] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:43:50 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A61CE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:44:31 urandom__ [~user@p548A33E6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:54 *stassats* would work for food and bicycle spares 22:46:06 does ITA or any other company have somebody doing a lot of SBCL hacking? 22:47:14 -!- ziga_ [~ziga@89.142.209.184] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:47:18 gonzojive: ITA has had someone doing that in the past  I don't know about now, though. 22:47:47 they also had some deals with Clozure, if i'm not mistaken 22:47:53 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c332f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:48:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover [~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486] has left #lisp 22:48:58 -!- gabnet [~gabnet@16.195.197-77.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 22:49:58 qbomb [~qbomb@firewall.gibsonemc.com] has joined #lisp 22:50:43 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:22 Lori [~lori@cl-115.lis-01.pt.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:39 What's the order of magnitude of X in "pay me $X" ? 22:53:39 -!- Lori [~lori@cl-115.lis-01.pt.sixxs.net] has left #lisp 22:53:50 six figures 22:54:15 intense 22:54:25 1000.00 <-- 22:54:29 (six figures) 22:54:58 Heres .000001 cents for the new compiler. 22:55:01 significant figures! 22:55:30 are cents not significant? 22:55:41 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-229-234.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:55:56 they're for tips 22:56:27 sykopomp: i would rahter prefer using integer instead of floats while writing invoices. 22:56:46 v0|d: if you represent the decimals as floats, you've failed at finance. 22:57:44 sykopomp: hehe. 22:58:30 and if you need subunit precision, use an integer number of minor units (cents, pennies, ĝre, etc.) 22:59:22 humm, does anyone have anything resembling Zmacs docs or something else that'd explain properly what a "possibilities buffer" really is, and how it works? 23:00:22 mathrick: Try looking through the TI Explorer documentation on bitsavers.org ? 23:00:43 good call 23:01:15 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-0-140.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 23:01:15 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-54-21.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Disconnected by services] 23:01:15 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 23:01:40 -!- qbomb [~qbomb@firewall.gibsonemc.com] has left #lisp 23:01:41 i'm kind of glad I did not understand that last exchange 23:03:08 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw80ff67c7.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:03:14 hey attila_lendvai , what are you upto? 23:04:34 v0|d: hey! nowadays mostly working on hu.dwim.web-server and hu.dwim.presentation (as a requirement to further polish http://dwim.hu ) 23:04:35 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A33E6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:04:43 If you're interested in linear algebra in lisp, lisp-matrix now has a web site and mailing list: http://common-lisp.net/project/lisp-matrix/ 23:05:07 nyef, gonzojive: if you ever actually get to gutting Python, I want to see Hannes's framework for type analysis in it 23:05:19 ie. the one he did for Dylan, lemme find the paper 23:05:29 it was referenced semi-recently on lisppit 23:05:46 -!- keyvan1 is now known as keyvan 23:06:11 attila_lendvai: nice, any running projects? 23:06:39 demos are cool. 23:07:00 mathrick: "Extending Dylan's type system for better type inference and error detection?" http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1869643.1869645&coll=DL&dl=GUIDE&CFID=9277110&CFTOKEN=27835917 23:07:32 nyef: bah, bitsavers.org is down :( 23:07:36 gonzojive: yes, that 23:07:45 -!- huangho [~vitor@201-66-210-6.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:08:05 mathrick: See if it's on archive.org, then? 23:08:47 that's indeed my next move! 23:09:11 v0|d: nothing, but I'm slow in burning money, so I'm not too nervous about a paying project (although seems like we'll have a small support contract for a year for one of the previous projects). nowadays I'm just doing fun programming, e.g. making hu.dwim.web-server deal with thousands of connections using a call/cc based multiplexer... what's up on your front? 23:09:14 mathrick: Google Scholar: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?client=safari&rls=en&q=Extending+Dylan%27s+type+system+for+better+type+inference+and+error+detection&oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=ws 23:09:22 aaaaand archive.org is crapping out as well 23:09:22 I'm fairly certain that if I have a local copy it's on an offline drive. 23:09:26 (pdf links to the right of the results) 23:09:31 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 23:09:55 sellout: I'd rather see pdf links to TI Explorer docs right now :) 23:10:04 Heh, sorry :) 23:10:18 mathrick: See if there's anything useful via unlambda? 23:10:32 attila_lendvai: great to hear that, i'm just trying to catch up, i was very busy with studying. 23:10:48 mathrick: Check the MIT flea market ;) 23:10:56 attila_lendvai: did you have a complied replacement for arnesi/cc? 23:11:14 sellout: I'm kinda 4000km away from it, sadly 23:11:42 nyef: currently sb-alien:make-alien requires a fixnum size. is that really necessary ? 23:11:49 And it's not open until April, anyway. 23:12:07 fe[nl]ix: Which aspect? 23:12:24 I think it gets passed to malloc(). 23:12:31 the allocation size to be a fixnum 23:12:37 omg 2239 patches. 23:12:41 What else would you pass? 23:13:17 nyef: malloc takes a size_t, which is 32 bits vs. 29 23:13:22 on x86 23:13:30 v0|d: I've factored out and cleaned up hu.dwim.delico from arnesi call/cc and it's somewhat prepared for two different backends (the new one will be a closure based compiled one) 23:13:41 fe[nl]ix: chances are you don't want to allocate whole 32 bits :) 23:13:45 fe[nl]ix: Yes, but try getting that much address space available. 23:13:49 -!- malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl11-47-80.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: malbertife] 23:14:07 attila_lendvai: oh ok i'll have a look. 23:14:16 Also means that the value is constrained to a single, easily unboxed, integer format. 23:14:37 attila_lendvai: you must be *very* busy lately during my absence:) 23:14:51 attila_lendvai: it tooks ages to apply patches. 23:15:11 After being unemployed for a while, I'm amazed at people who can do contract work and not stress out in the between-time! 23:16:00 cmm [~cmm@109.65.207.111] has joined #lisp 23:16:54 v0|d: we've been much more busy regarding the infrastructure up until some 6 months ago. nowadays I'm just returning to enjoy hacking in the last few days... been reading too much psychology, economics and politics to have an idea how to deal with the upcoming mess in the world... :/ 23:17:13 nyef: actually it's %make-alien which signals that error, and its argument is in bits 23:17:19 v0|d: btw, which repo did have 2239 patches? 23:17:46 attila_lendvai: web server. 23:18:11 why must all the internet be broken right when I need it? 23:18:13 *mathrick* grumbles 23:18:19 nyef: which means at most 64Mb 23:18:34 v0|d: note that both hdws and hdp are branches of hu.dwim.wui. wui was split... 23:18:46 attila_lendvai: i see 23:18:54 fe[nl]ix: Ah. That'd be why you want to bump it up. 23:19:12 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@74.209.54.217] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 23:19:18 fe[nl]ix: uhh, why is it even in bits? That makes no sense whatsoever 23:19:39 -!- cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-181-198-112.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:20:10 mathrick: it made sense if you wanted the compiler to work on 36-bit machines as well as on 32-bit ones 23:20:16 mathrick: There's no doubt some twisted, alien reason for it. 23:20:27 fe[nl]ix: ah, I guess so 23:20:29 ... since when did CMUCL run on a 36-bit machine? 23:20:34 nyef: I met the guy who wrote alien for spice lisp 23:20:43 fe[nl]ix: Oh, cool. 23:20:49 jerry boetje 23:21:03 does SBCL work on 36-bit machines? :) 23:21:11 not any more, probably 23:21:22 but you could port it 23:21:28 Good morning everyone! 23:21:39 beach: hey beach 23:21:45 mathrick: Yes, I have been in touch with Scott about CLIM. 23:21:45 Hello beach. 23:21:46 err, that made little sense 23:21:52 beach: oh cool 23:22:06 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:22:20 beach: how close to DUIM do you want to get it? 23:22:24 that said, it seems that the machine for which spice lisp was originally written, PERQ, was 16-bit 23:22:28 so who knows ? 23:22:50 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:22:53 mathrick: I am not trying to copy DWIM. 23:23:00 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 23:23:03 fe[nl]ix: I'd say just make it use bytes instead of bits 23:23:03 er, DUIM 23:23:37 beach: aye, but it'd make sense to look closely at what it does if Scott feels he got it right on the third attempt 23:23:59 mathrick: I have and I am. 23:25:01 beach: right, hence my question. Perhaps I phrased it poorly, "how close is where you see CLIM3 going to DUIM?" might be better 23:25:16 mathrick: I haven't looked at it for a while now, but last time I did, it looked like lots of things were missing, probably because he wanted to strip it down to a minimum, wise from the experience of CLIM II. 23:25:38 mhm 23:26:08 mathrick: In fact, what I have done so far for CLIM3 is not being addressed at all by the DUIM spec. 23:26:18 interesting 23:26:29 *mathrick* needs to familiarise himself with CLIM properly 23:26:48 *sykopomp* is looking forward to familiarising himself with CLIM3. 23:27:59 beach: speaking of things not being addressed, are you considering things like non-GUI display at all? I'm in the "thinking about emacs that doesn't suck" mood again, and that makes me think of things like that 23:28:39 -!- jikanter [~a@66.146.192.42] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:29:47 mathrick: Sure. I mean, CLIM II could already use a text-only backend, except nobody bothered to write it. 23:30:46 timor [~timor@port-92-195-84-150.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 23:30:53 mathrick: In fact, it is probably relatively easy to write one, using something like curses. 23:31:12 beach: ah, and how, well, clumsy would it be to try to write a sane editor with it? 23:31:22 assuming you can judge that at all 23:31:51 mathrick: I can judge because I did. It is called Climacs. 23:32:07 beach: yes, but I mean a sane tty-based editor 23:32:31 and yes, I'm thinking specifically of Climacs here 23:32:46 mathrick: There is nothing in Climacs that assumes a graphic display. The minute there is a text-only backend for McCLIM, Climacs will be a text-only editor. 23:33:04 I can't help but question the usefulness of such text-only backend 23:33:27 drdo: Which is probably why nobody bothered with the backend. 23:33:37 beach: I don't have enough knowledge of CLIM to judge what kind of thing a text-only CLIM would be. So it's not merely emulating windows and dialogues with curses, but actually would give meaningful text-based output? 23:34:13 I'm not just interested in something that theoretically fulfills the criterion of being a text-only editor 23:35:27 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:35:41 mathrick: A large part of CLIM II is about displaying text. A text-only backend would just ignore grahics output and show the text only. Since Climacs doesn't do any graphics output, the output would look the same, aside from fonts and such which would be taken from the TTY rather than from CLIM. 23:36:09 IMHO, a good editor should actually assume a certain kind of graphical output, and then have the text-version of it be an intelligent translation of the idea the graphics is trying to convey 23:36:37 beach: hmm, but I'm quite sure I've seen screenshots of Climacs doing graphics 23:37:00 Pretty sure climacs does graphics 23:37:09 billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 23:37:09 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Changing host] 23:37:09 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 23:37:26 either way, CLIM is probably as good as any GUI can get, since it actually takes a structured, introspective approach to the data being presented, which is not the case usually 23:37:38 *as good for being translated to pure text 23:37:50 Oh, right, you can stick any object in a Climacs buffer, so if you want it to display as graphics, then it would do that. But that would just turn out blank in such a backend. 23:37:54 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 23:38:51 I wish i could understand how the hell graphics work in linux 23:38:57 poorly! 23:39:03 Matt_S_G [~Matt@188.52.12.53] has joined #lisp 23:39:13 drdo: what do you mean by that, though? 23:39:24 mathrick: I think CLIM II is pretty good, and I think McCLIM is quite good to, in fact amazing, given the way it was developed and the time it took. We can do better of course, but I don't share all the negative opinions about it that I sometimes see. 23:39:26 *nyef* looks up from the disassembly of a graphics card BIOS he's looking at. 23:39:35 Yeah, "poorly" sounds about right. 23:39:53 mathrick: How the 10 million layer with lots of overlap stack is organized 23:40:15 beach: well, yes, you can stick graphics, but that's not necessarily a useful way to do it. The useful way would be to have a different rendering of the same _information_ if at all possible 23:40:17 I honestly don't understand it, so i just settle for X 23:40:27 drdo: X is one of these layers 23:40:35 mathrick: Well sure 23:40:45 But i think X is way way overkill 23:40:45 deego [~user@74.255.63.136] has joined #lisp 23:40:52 there's not so much of "linux graphics" you really want to touch 23:40:57 mathrick: Luckily for you, CLIM II is layered, so you can put whatever rendering code you want in there. 23:41:17 if you don't want X, you basically go with some kind of DirectFB thing, which is not all roses either 23:41:28 If i could get a fullscreen opengl context to go nuts with 23:41:31 I'd be happy 23:41:47 drdo: you can do it, in X in fact 23:41:53 beach: when will we see CLIM3? 23:42:00 (modern X, but that's all you want to have anything to do with anyway) 23:42:03 drdo: I also don't share the negative opinions about X11. Again, it is a totally amazing piece of work. In hindsight they made some mistakes, but they could not have predicted the future. 23:42:05 mathrick: I'm sure i can, but then i don't see the point of X 23:42:12 If I could get my graphics card to suspend and resume in linux, I'd be happier. 23:42:28 beach: mhm, and so climacs could intervene at any point to make things more meaningful? 23:42:30 beach: X is pretty useful if you require the functionality it offers 23:42:35 I don't 23:42:39 (Then the success would wear off, and I'd have to find something else to hack on.) 23:42:44 drdo: what do you want to do then? 23:43:00 drdo: That's different from what you said first. 23:44:00 How exactly does X work in linux anyway? 23:44:04 mathrick: Yes, Climacs decides on the rendering of the objects in its buffer. 23:44:05 What's below it? 23:44:06 beach: does CLIM have the kind of framework to make decisions like "if we're in a GUI context, present this as a dialogue box, otherwise as the minibuffer prompt"? 23:44:12 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:44:38 drdo: many different things 23:44:40 beach: note that ubuntu are going to replace X with something more modern in their next release. can't wait (: 23:44:43 drdo: things 23:44:54 antifuchs: are they? That's news 23:44:58 very informative mathrick and stassats 23:45:01 wayland? 23:45:03 mathrick: Wayland 23:45:04 thought there was an announcement to this effect 23:45:08 mathrick: CLIM has the concept of a "view". It defines "textual-view" by default. The others are application-specific. 23:45:10 yea, that 23:45:12 first I hear! 23:45:14 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@96.246.167.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:45:23 drdo: well, this is not a place to discuss how X server is implemented, really 23:45:25 I guess I'm just more convinced to leave ubuntu now 23:45:32 haha 23:45:37 antifuchs: I would have to read up on that. Sounds scary! 23:45:46 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 23:45:46 stassats: Don't be such a tight ass! 23:45:52 time for X to lie down & take out its third teeth (: 23:46:02 just a short little nap 23:46:05 oh yay, archive.org is unbroken 23:46:20 drdo: it's complex and in a huge flux right now 23:46:20 *antifuchs* fetches the comforter & smothering pillow 23:46:22 nah, all you need for a user interface is read-line, and write-line 23:46:26 and y-or-n-p 23:46:45 mathrick: I just don't understand the whole thing, it seems to be a huge mess all around 23:46:47 DRM & DRI, but they're being phased out by a bit different architecture 23:46:52 drdo: because it is 23:47:05 okay, false alarm, it's only partially unbroken 23:47:08 *mathrick* waits 23:47:58 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:48:18 the more i learn about lisp... the more it seems like a super-powerful under-rated language that i SHOULD learn well because it can do anything i'd ever want, as good/fast as, if not better/faster than any other tool..... i may be getting the wrong impression but so far its exciting. 23:48:20 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:48:33 keyvan: cool stuff! 23:48:37 keyvan: glad you like it (: 23:48:47 antifuchs: is it a deluded vision though? 23:48:59 lisp is slow, unreadable and for ai 23:49:10 trust me 23:49:14 keyvan: it's a very useful tool to have in your collection! 23:49:16 drdo: im reading in this book that it can compile to C-speed 23:49:24 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:28 antifuchs: so my vision is deluded lol 23:49:28 C speed within a constant factor (-: 23:49:34 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:49:36 keyvan: are you out-trolling me or did you not get the sarcasm? :P 23:49:46 nah, i beat C with VOPs 23:49:58 if your vision is that lisp is the absolute best thing in the world, then yeah, it probably is deluded (: 23:50:12 because it's the best thing in the universe? 23:50:27 lisp comes with a different set of tradeoffs than other tools, though. so it's useful in situations where others aren't (: 23:50:41 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:50:52 drdo: haha sorry i guess my subconscious out-trolled you automatically in defense but now i understand you were being sarcastic because you told me. i lost 23:50:54 antifuchs: What specifically are you talking about? 23:50:55 and if not, we can always get a more SSC! 23:51:05 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-84-150.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:51:17 (the difference between C++ and CL is that we actually get a SSC for most things) 23:51:18 Always rely on "someone" implementing a SSC 23:51:33 antifuchs: okay so the practical common lisp book if i keep reading will probably set me straight, i hope 23:51:47 keyvan: that, and practice (: 23:51:52 antifuchs: im basically at the introduction and wanted to come in here and set my sight straight before i continue.... 23:51:53 keyvan: PCL is nice book to get you started if you already know programming 23:51:56 practicable common lisp 23:52:03 that whole book about you using lisp for practical purposes (: 23:52:06 You might want to read On Lisp after 23:52:22 lazy question: whenever I C-c C-k and it fails, I get a prompt saying "compilation failed, load fasl anyway?"  can I get it to not ask me that? 23:52:29 On Lisp is not likely to make someone less high on the lisp koolaid 23:52:33 antifuchs: i cant practice yet.... i really would love if someone would help me use my environment, im new to emacs and slime and all that and although quicklisp configured it all for me i dont know how to actually go and use it. 23:52:50 keyvan: well, that's what practice is for (: 23:52:53 keyvan: C-h t will give you emacs tutorial 23:52:57 I think On Lisp is a very nice book 23:52:58 keyvan: anyway... "you'll get used to it", I guess (: 23:52:58 then you just use it 23:53:04 antifuchs: C-h t? 23:53:14 the emacs tutorial is a good place to start 23:53:37 keyvan: but be careful, with superpowers come superresponsibilities 23:53:38 On Lisp is free too. awesome :D 23:53:42 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-135-110.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:54:05 stassats: haha im trying to determine if its as super as it is appearing to be..... i thought ruby was so awesome but lisp is way faster and apparently even more expressive and such 23:54:31 my best language is ruby, so i wanted to learn lisp because i think it will make me think differently 23:54:53 and i thought you cant really get more expressive than ruby. 23:55:04 I never understood that "lisp will make you think differently" thing 23:55:05 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Quit: eugu] 23:55:24 drdo: well i got that from the idea that lisp treats code and data as kind of like one in the same thing... 23:55:43 keyvan: it has been experience, that yes, you do think differently afte rlearning lisp....each time you have to use some other language instead of Lisp, you pine, mournfully for what you are forced to do in sub-optimal languages :) 23:55:44 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755c59.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 23:56:02 hargettp speaks the truth 23:56:23 hargettp: hah, well i am looking forward to this. its been about 2 weeks ive been hanging around here and learning more whenver i have time. today is lisp day for me no doubt. digging deep 23:56:43 in other languages, most of the time I wish for a quicker way to redefine stuff & retry. 23:56:43 keyvan: good for you! enjoy the ride :) 23:57:20 keyvan: If you want to learn about what lisp can do that most other languages can't, On Lisp is the book you want 23:57:25 but if someone would give me a hands-on approach to using my environment i would be real grateful, i have teamviwer, skype, etc. if not i understand, i will read tutorials and such of course. 23:57:27 metaprogramming and smart stuff support are cool and all, but I never miss them as much as a REPL and C-M-x 23:58:05 antifuchs: I never wanted macros so much as I do now that I am tossing Java and scads of property files around... :) 23:58:19 antifuchs: you can quickly redefine in Ruby, and it has IRB (which is like REPL, but nicer from what ive seen) 23:58:23 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:58:32 keyvan: yeah, not as quickly as in lisp, in my experience 23:58:38 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 23:58:53 keyvan: at least if you're using rails... re-running tests regularly took about a minute to start up (-: 23:59:18 hah ive been doing rails professionally for over a year. and i would never ever write another app in it again for myself. 23:59:25 too damn slow, uses way too much resources. 23:59:31 but if someone wants to pay me to fix their app, sure. :P 23:59:56 whats the word on Weblocks? the lisp web-app framework? do you guys use it? 23:59:56 that was my experience exactly (: 23:59:56 Think positive, at least you're not using java