00:00:01 oh, cool, mohiji.org is up, just takes a while to respond 00:00:02 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:03:31 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-112-110.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:04:38 -!- rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:05:32 rgrau_ [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:46 -!- gonzojive [~red@171.66.89.84] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 00:09:14 -!- jikanter [~a@66.146.192.42] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:09:27 -!- talyz [~user@ip35.tunnan.riksnet.nu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:09:43 azaq231 [~derivecto@p4FF6913E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 00:09:53 -!- azaq231 [~derivecto@p4FF6913E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Changing host] 00:09:53 azaq231 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 00:10:04 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:10:10 gonzojive [~red@171.66.89.84] has joined #lisp 00:10:19 -!- rgrau_ [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:10:22 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.213.79] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 00:11:14 amb007 [~a_bakic@182.29.195-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 00:11:52 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:14:22 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-120-113.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:16:11 beach: why is quicklisp recommended nowadays over manual installation of emacs, slime, paredit, sbcl? because it's easier? 00:16:30 -!- azaq231 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:17:27 konr [~user@tramp.lab.ic.unicamp.br] has joined #lisp 00:17:29 rien: Yes, and it takes care of dependencies. 00:18:48 which the "manual" install wouldn't? 00:19:21 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-188-118-133-222.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:19:28 I'm asking because I already have emacs + paredit and sbcl installed (only missing slime), and I was almost about to make it all work together (I've been using scheme for now) to learn CL 00:19:39 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:19:51 but if quicklisp is the recommended way then I can just get that (I've tried one and it works flawlessly for me) 00:20:31 adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:20:48 you can use it on top of a manually-installed lisp environment, if that's what you mean 00:21:53 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 00:22:40 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 00:24:00 koning_robot: I don't have a preference to be honest, I just want to know if there's an advantage one way or the other 00:24:05 hello. after defining a class, (loop for x of-type myclass in ...) should be possible, is that right? 00:24:10 when I installed sbcl I didn't know about quicklisp 00:24:39 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 00:25:23 -!- leifw [~leif@ool-18bac6ad.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:26:09 Hmm, perhaps I should approach the design of CLIM 3 in both directions. One candidate for the "top-down" direction would be commands, and in particular define-command. Clearly, with internationalization, :prompt and :documentation would have to go, not only with define-command, but with accept as well. 00:27:41 rien: quicklisp is written in lisp, so you'll need to install sbcl yourself (and, actually, emacs and paredit aren't distributed by quicklisp either because they are not common lisp systems) 00:29:32 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:45 actually, slime isn't entirely common lisp either, but you can get it through quicklisp anyway 00:30:33 koning_robot: hmm I'm pretty sure I have run quicklist without having sbcl 00:35:13 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@75-150-231-161-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:35:15 RaceCondition [~erik@82.131.60.32.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 00:37:34 I'll install sbcl anyway (just realized I don't have it here at home, only at work. previous attempts at installing it here on my mac failed, but I'm now following the guide from that mohiji link that was just posted) 00:42:47 -!- hugod_ [~hugod@76.66.188.14] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:42:51 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 00:44:11 rien: if you're on Mac, I'd recommend Clozure Common Lisp 00:45:08 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@182.29.195-77.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:46:22 p_l|backup: yep I already have that working :) 00:46:38 carnieri_ [~carnieri@186.214.47.56] has joined #lisp 00:46:45 -!- macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-152-12.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 00:46:58 quicklisp is even specially supported by adding support for loading files over HTTP 00:47:05 -!- carnieri [~carnieri@186.214.47.56] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:47:05 -!- carnieri_ is now known as carnieri 00:47:18 but I don't really now how to use CCL with emacs 00:49:55 (setq slime-lisp-implementations (ccl ("/home/pl/root/ccl/lx86cl64")) (ccl-32 ("/home/pl/root/ccl/lx86cl"))) <--- that's a snippet from my config file 00:50:43 C-u M-x slime <--- and this asks me for the correct implementation to run from the list, otherwise runs the first one 00:51:55 p_l|backup: that's awesome, thanks! 00:55:02 amb007 [~a_bakic@182.29.195-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 00:57:58 -!- jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-7-68-199.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jajcloz] 00:59:26 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-140-232.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:01:04 beach: so any plans for VR support (multiple displays, tracked inputs etc ) in CLIM 01:04:12 nixnyan: Not by me, because I wouldn't know what to specify, nor how to implement it. But CLIM is a layered standard, and is meant to allow different protocol to coexist, so it would probably be possible to add that. 01:04:44 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:05:30 beach: where is the current status of CLIM3 proposal/spec? 01:05:59 Jubb [~ghost@129.21.84.97] has joined #lisp 01:06:03 I'd like to look at it after my brief encounter with the new stuff in Android, which I really liked 01:06:18 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 01:07:03 like what sutff p_l|backup 01:07:10 p_l|backup: I am reluctant to announce it, but it's out there so here you go: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/CLIM-3.git 01:07:36 beach: as for :prompt and :documentation, have you considered making it so that you can specify *current-translation-db* which would override certain strings? 01:08:06 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:08:37 also, if you want to internationalize that much, all, and I MEAN IT, ALL, error messages or important notices need non-translateable identifiers that the user can see 01:08:39 p_l|backup: I haven't really considered anything at this point. 01:09:04 beach: yeah, but I find :prompt and :documentation something worth to keep :) 01:10:16 p_l|backup: I need to give it some more thought. Your idea seems similar to that of gettext. 01:10:18 -!- tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [Changing host] 01:10:18 tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has joined #lisp 01:10:50 leifw [~leif@ool-18bac6ad.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:11:05 beach: I'm not saying that the translateable objects need to be *pure* text 01:11:42 it's just that keeping some form of original strings in code improves readability 01:12:06 especially if coupled with a method that you can run on the image to produce a database of all translateable elements 01:12:14 -!- tessier is now known as tessier_ 01:12:43 -!- tessier_ is now known as tessier 01:12:57 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:13:05 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:13:21 p_l|backup: Right then, I got worried about maintenance of the original "strings". If they change, it would break all translation I would think. 01:13:37 beach: the tool could monitor it 01:13:57 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 01:14:19 basically, all points in the framework where such translateable elements happen would be already tagged in some way, and the developer would get a nice short macro (reader macro?) to mark other text 01:17:06 p_l|backup: I am not sure about the consequences of what you are saying, because for that I need to think things through first. But I still appreciate the input. 01:18:06 I was thinking of something like this: #ts{You have (:count :inanimate :paper) new messages from (:count :people).} 01:18:22 unfortunately such full translation level makes it horribly hard to do 01:19:48 p_l|backup: Hmm, I see. Well, I do want to expose lower-level mechanisms first, and then build higher, more convenient ones, on top. I want to avoid the current situation where there is pretty much only the higher level mechanism, which lots of options that most people never use, and which makes things much harder to implement. 01:23:44 -!- skeptomai [~cb@ip65-47-31-86.z31-47-65.customer.algx.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:25:50 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 01:28:41 ... so for instance, I want to understand why the relationship between a presentation type and the :prompt argument used to accept. Is the :prompt just a way to specify a sub-type? What is the relationship between a presentation type and a command argument? Do I need a formal concept "argument" which is distinct from presentation type, but which specifies the prompt? Etc, etc. 01:29:38 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-094-230.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:30:52 -!- Grazl [~Grazl@11.Red-79-150-124.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 01:31:00 Grazl [~Grazl@11.Red-79-150-124.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:03 -!- sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:31:52 If an "argument" (or perhaps rather "parameter") is unique to every command, then the :prompt and the :documentation are reasonable things to have. If not, perhaps there is a need to specify a "parameter" type which contains a presentation type, a prompt and a documentation, and this could be shared between several commands. 01:32:46 In addition, such a "parameter" type would be the thing to internationalize. 01:34:59 beach: would need more thinking about it... for now, the drugs are kicking off and I'm going to sleep... 01:35:13 Good night 01:35:56 weirdo [sthalik@2001:5c0:1400:b::80b3] has joined #lisp 01:40:33 p_l|backup: 'night! 01:41:16 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:41:17 ravic [~ravic@smtp.touchcut.com] has joined #lisp 01:41:23 I also think :gesture in a command is wrong. Perhaps the gesture to use should depend on the view. 01:46:25 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:46:44 hm. i still do not get the error in my loop. i defined a class somewhere at the top of a source file and later i woule like to (loop for x of-type in (list ....)). what is the obvious thing i am overlooking? 01:47:43 trebor_dki: What is the error message? 01:47:55 -!- carnieri [~carnieri@186.214.47.56] has quit [Quit: carnieri] 01:48:21 hugod_ [~hugod@76.66.188.14] has joined #lisp 01:48:46 sbcl says, it does not know type . 01:49:05 trebor_dki: Works for me. 01:49:28 -!- weirdo [sthalik@2001:5c0:1400:b::80b3] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:49:42 Maybe something iffy with the notion of "compile-time environment" for type recognition not interacting well with LOOP? 01:50:43 -!- xan_ [~xan@245.Red-79-157-129.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:51:32 weirdo [sthalik@2001:5c0:1400:b::80b3] has joined #lisp 01:52:32 i removed of-type and the loop works, but i would feel better if i would understand why. so at least it is not an obvious thing... 01:52:55 *trebor_dki* re-reading the chapters about loop 01:53:01 trebor_dki: It works in the REPL, so there is nothing wrong with LOOP or the code it generates. 01:53:07 wgl [~wgl@209.242.26.41] has joined #lisp 01:53:26 trebor_dki: The explanation nyef gave is more likely. 01:55:48 oconnore [~eric@ip68-230-164-105.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:11 it seems the error occurs only on an older sbcl (i transfered it to a multi-cpu machine, running 1.0.38-2.el5) ... 01:56:18 thanks beach, nyef 01:56:30 trebor_dki: If you stick an eval-when around the defclass, it works. 01:57:10 trebor_dki: I get the error in 1.0.44 if I don't use eval-when. 01:57:16 thanks, i will do so (and reading about eval-when, never used it before) 02:00:54 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:01:58 does one always have to use (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :exexute) (defclass ....)), or is only one of {:c-t :l-t :e} necessary? 02:02:07 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:05:54 -!- Grazl [~Grazl@11.Red-79-150-124.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Grazl] 02:06:07 -!- ch077179 [~urs@adsl-89-217-241-218.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:06:19 I'm told that it's best to use all three, all the time, but will admit that I usually leave off :execute, and could possibly (though not plausibly) find a reason to leave off one of the others. 02:07:49 serichsen [~user@f048136230.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 02:07:51 Hello! 02:07:55 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-217-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:21 99 bottles of lisp on the wall... 02:08:44 kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 02:08:52 there are patterns, everywhere in nature 02:08:55 I got a Lisp job ad through Xing. Should I post it somewhere? 02:09:11 Take one down, pass it around, #x62 bottles of lisp on the wall... 02:09:22 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:10:25 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@82.131.60.32.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: RaceCondition] 02:10:41 -!- kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:11:05 It seems to be located in Xalapa, Veracruz, Mexico. 02:11:11 beach: for string translation, take a look at the example set by http://doc.qt.nokia.com/4.0/linguist-manual.html 02:11:22 It seems to be about civil engineering. 02:11:44 billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:14 -!- superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.148] has quit [Quit: superflit] 02:12:19 Here: http://mx.caycojobs.com/Listing.aspx?Id=6002084721724275387 02:12:31 jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:17:15 nuntius: That guide would require me to write strings in source code using Swedish. 02:17:39 ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 02:17:43 serichse` [~user@f048229053.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 02:18:00 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:19:21 ch077179 [~urs@adsl-89-217-147-190.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 02:20:01 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:20:26 -!- serichsen [~user@f048136230.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:21:46 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483B833.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:21:50 nuntius: What essential problem does this guide address in your opinion? And is that problem specific to the environment that is used by Qt, or does it generalize to Common Lisp? 02:23:19 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 02:24:37 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-131-187.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:26:52 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-133.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:30:25 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@182.29.195-77.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:32:24 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-155-193-226.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:33:14 -!- billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:37:45 -!- silentbicycle [~scott@99-55-246-143.lightspeed.gdrpmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:41:31 beach: ?? Swedish? Qt Translator is a toolset that allows the programmer to mark up strings for others to translate. Gettext on steroids. 02:41:34 amb007 [~a_bakic@182.29.195-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:04 It is a good solution to the general process. Every language needs something like it. 02:45:45 nuntius: "The phrases are entered into the source code by the programmer in their native language" 02:46:03 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:46:22 s/native language/language they want to use/ 02:46:36 nuntius: What are s/x/y/ should I apply? 02:46:49 that first language is simply the hook for others to add translations 02:47:00 nuntius: Most CL code will never have a release manager nor a Translator, but we need for (sophisticated) end users to be able to add their own messages. 02:47:31 yes. and Qt translator shows a good approach to allow that. 02:47:43 the end user can be the translator. 02:47:57 or did I completely miss what you want to do? 02:49:34 nuntius: I don't know. p_l|backup was talking about translation. I kind of think that it would be better to abstract out concepts and then allow for end-users and others to supply messages for those concepts. 02:49:55 but you need words to describe the concepts that others translate... 02:50:21 adu [~ajr@pool-173-79-54-138.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:50:31 Qt's solution is to have the programmer use the words natural to him, mark them up for the translation tools, and optionally provide a "docstring" to guide translators 02:50:50 -!- jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:51:00 the Translator tool is a nice GUI to help create translations, update them, merge them, compare languages, etc. 02:52:02 corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:52:15 Their framework will also guess translations when things are similar; you can approve or override them as necessary. 02:52:56 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:53:22 corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:28 ... will it also do the initial translation for you via google language tools? 02:54:08 I don't think so. 02:55:16 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-142-248.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 02:56:42 sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:56:48 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:59:37 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:00:05 -!- Jubb [~ghost@129.21.84.97] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:01:55 here's the current linguist docs: http://doc.qt.nokia.com/latest/linguist-manual.html 03:03:25 here's a related thread: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1537583/qt-linguist-google-translate 03:04:00 gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:08 -!- serichse` [~user@f048229053.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: bed] 03:08:31 Okay, my brain is fried. Time for sleep. 03:08:35 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-148-200.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 03:09:02 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 03:09:20 Jubb [~ghost@129.21.84.97] has joined #lisp 03:11:05 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:11:25 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 03:12:16 SsvRrwQ [~user@S0106001c1122940c.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:23 -!- HET4 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 03:12:27 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5B327D30.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:12:35 daniel [~daniel@p5B327D30.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:16:34 -!- gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:18:16 nuntius: Actually, I don't think of things that way at all, at least not right now. I think of the programmer and the person writing documentation as two different people, or at least two different roles. 03:19:17 nuntius: Therefore I don't think documentation for code belongs near the code, because to the programmer and maintainer of the code, it is noise, and the programmer is often unwilling and/or unable to write good documentation anyway. 03:19:28 Can the &OPTIONAL argument in DEFMETHOD have a specifier? 03:19:35 s/the/an/ 03:19:40 nuntius: So the notion of an "original" string doesn't seem reasonable to me. 03:19:52 Quadrescence: No. 03:20:03 beach: Any rationale? 03:20:30 -!- SsvRrwQ [~user@S0106001c1122940c.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:20:43 beach: in Android the translation tools do it without single original string, but they have pure simple strings only (couldn't fall asleep despite trying...) 03:20:51 Quadrescence: Probably, but I don't know the details. 03:21:46 Quadrescence: it has to do with congruence. Optional params could change which method matches best. 03:22:00 beach: QRadioButton(tr("Enabled", "Color frame"), this); 03:22:08 gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 03:22:19 SsvRrwQ [~user@S0106001c1122940c.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:22:27 hrmm... how do I use setf with multiple values? 03:22:32 nuntius: Right, but upon invoking a method, it's not like an optional param will automagically appear. 03:22:46 slyrus: (setf (values ...) (values ...)) 03:23:03 The programmer isn't writing much documentation. I often wrote a stub saying "document XYZ" and did the real documentation (in English!) using the translation tool. 03:23:44 beach: right, but how do I do a (defun (setf foo) (...) ...) that takes multiple values? 03:23:45 wheresmind [~mind@174.95.12.17] has joined #lisp 03:28:38 Quadrescence: yes &optional params can be specialized. I misread. See http://www.alu.org/mop/concepts.html#specializers 03:30:57 nuntius: That doesn't seem to say &optionals can be specialized. 03:31:49 search for the word optional; it appears in some later examples. 03:32:06 beach: just use defsetf? 03:32:14 another resource: http://www.dreamsongs.com/Files/clos-overview.pdf 03:33:19 "The lambda-list of the generic function is congruent with the lambda-list of the new method. In general, two lambda-lists are congruent if they have the same number of required parameters, the same number of optional parameters, and the same treatment of &allow-other-keys." 03:35:14 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:36:01 Right, but I am asking if one is allowed to specialize an &optional argument, e.g., (defmethod foo ((x number) (y string) &optional (z number)) ...) 03:36:02 -!- gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:36:27 I don't think you're allowed to specialize on optionals. 03:36:29 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 03:37:00 common lisp expert and aficionado Prof. Beach says no. 03:37:45 btw, for people interested in Lisp on Android, apparently Kawa Scheme works well not only in AppInventor 03:37:49 slyrus: What do you mean (setf foo) takes multiple values? 03:38:17 from the alu.org link: (defmethod move :before ((p position) (l (eql 0)) &optional (visiblyp t) &key color) 03:38:28 sry 03:38:33 not relevant 03:38:39 rtoym: e.g. (setf foo (values 1 2 3)) 03:39:06 back to original statement that &optional had a bad interaction with congruence. 03:39:20 -!- malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl9-65-221.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:39:29 need better reading comprehension 03:39:49 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:40:08 slyrus: I don't quite get it, but maybe you're looking for get-setf-expansion? 03:40:13 clhs get-setf-expansion 03:40:13 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_get_se.htm 03:40:17 rtoym: or, for a more real-world example, (setf (8-bit-rgb-pixel img i j) (values 1 2 3)) 03:40:37 I used defsetf to get what I wanted 03:40:58 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-142-248.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:41:52 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 03:44:31 There you go, then. defsetf was the right thing. :0 03:45:14 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:47:14 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:51:34 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 03:56:53 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@182.29.195-77.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:04:22 -!- myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:06:21 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 04:07:01 setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:07:30 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:09:36 hmm... well, I can get the equivalent of about 6 fps somewhat naively frobbing a 1920x1080 rgb image, hitting every pixel with a simple arithmetic operation. 04:10:24 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 04:10:48 setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:11:51 -!- gonzojive [~red@171.66.89.84] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 04:13:48 M-sprite [~M-sprite@60.183.218.204] has joined #lisp 04:14:05 -!- M-sprite [~M-sprite@60.183.218.204] has quit [Client Quit] 04:20:07 slyrus: what are you using for traversal / math? 04:23:29 M-sprite [~M-sprite@60.183.219.61] has joined #lisp 04:24:07 -!- Jubb [~ghost@129.21.84.97] has quit [Quit: Jubb] 04:24:36 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 04:26:00 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:28:41 jleija [~jleija@c-98-199-38-40.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:35 slyrus: Do you consider that good or bad? 04:32:41 slyrus: What are you using as a display server? CLX? 04:33:52 -!- wheresmind [~mind@174.95.12.17] has left #lisp 04:34:15 6fps seems slow to me. For a "simple math op", that frame size, and 3-channel rgb, I'd expect closer to 10-20fps. 04:34:16 -!- jleija [~jleija@c-98-199-38-40.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:34:56 Yeah, I think I got more than that using a client-side CLX image object. 04:39:52 Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.99.177] has joined #lisp 04:43:22 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 04:44:45 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:45:22 sm` [~s@78.157.15.219] has joined #lisp 04:46:03 Fare [~Fare@64.119.159.126] has joined #lisp 04:47:26 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 04:48:05 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:49:29 beach: not displaying anything, just walking over the array 04:49:48 traversing with loop and incf for the math :) 04:52:44 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:54:41 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-142-248.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 04:58:18 pnq [~nick@AC815069.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 05:00:05 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 05:04:55 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 05:07:53 -!- xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-174-106.lns20.mel6.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit:  Unicode shall reign forever! ] 05:08:20 xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-174-106.lns20.mel6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:12:25 rins` [~user@173-162-214-174-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 05:13:48 -!- rins [~user@173-162-214-174-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:15:36 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:21:23 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:23:24 Spion__ [~spion@77.29.250.12] has joined #lisp 05:24:19 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:24:48 -!- kleppari_ [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:26:42 morlos [~morlos@cpe-76-171-76-155.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:28:48 argb or rgba? 05:28:56 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 05:32:15 -!- oconnore [~eric@ip68-230-164-105.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:37:36 adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:39:18 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-tlwsjlmiqijawuti] has joined #lisp 05:46:53 kami`` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 05:49:20 -!- kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:50:44 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:51:17 fihi09 [~user@pool-96-224-36-151.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:54:09 -!- konr [~user@tramp.lab.ic.unicamp.br] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:57:37 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-80-80.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 06:01:35 hmm... never knew that the default value for deftype-lambda-list optional params was '*... 06:02:46 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 06:02:58 well, * anyway 06:07:44 Phoodus [~foo@ip68-231-47-70.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:07:47 -!- Fare [~Fare@64.119.159.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:13:48 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:14:54 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-vfvuljnnugkjgthi] has joined #lisp 06:14:54 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-vfvuljnnugkjgthi] has quit [Changing host] 06:14:54 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 06:15:19 jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-138.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:19:14 -!- Kruppe [~user@CPE00222d128ba2-CM00222d128b9e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:19:36 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-80-80.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:20:45 another silly beginner question.. what am i doing wrong here? http://paste.pocoo.org/show/331430/ 06:21:01 (save-atoms '(x y (a b) z (c))) returns NIL instead of the expected (X Y Z) 06:21:32 oops 06:21:35 i think i see it 06:21:39 nevermind 06:21:55 i was resetting result to the atom, rather than consing it to the result 06:23:23 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 06:25:13 grr.. or maybe not.. 06:25:22 this still doesn't work.. http://paste.pocoo.org/show/331431/ 06:25:39 (save-atoms '(x y (a b) z (c))) still returns NIL 06:26:21 pattern: when there is a non-atom, you reset result to nil. 06:26:31 oh 06:27:03 pattern: try (save-atoms '(x y (a b) z c)) 06:27:50 right 06:27:54 it makes sense 06:28:02 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:28:07 putting in an if instead of a when, and returning the result in the else clause fixed it 06:28:27 pattern: Right, but idioms like this are better expressed with LOOP. 06:28:40 i believe it 06:28:48 this chapter in my book has me practicing do, though 06:29:09 it had me use a lot of loop constructs earlier 06:29:20 i expect it'll get to more advanced loop usage later 06:29:27 and if it doesn't, some other book will.. 06:29:44 OK. 06:29:52 i appreciate the advice, though 06:30:23 and from the peeks i've taken at idiomatic loop usage, it does look like it would be well suited for the work of a lot of stuff i've done with do 06:30:48 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has joined #lisp 06:39:30 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:41:06 superflit [~superflit@c-67-176-26-75.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:41:14 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:42:55 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 06:46:15 OK, maybe it is more like 10-12 "fps"... not too bad. 06:48:00 slyrus: I experimented with stuff like that for the backends of McCLIM and CLIMatis (the implementation of CLIM 3), and it's not bad at all, especially since in those backends, it is extremely rare that a large part of the output window is modified between redraws. 06:48:50 -!- kami`` is now known as kami 06:49:00 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 06:59:32 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:00:31 using my values hacks, things seem to take about 1/3 the time that they would take in imago, and, oy, about 1/150 the time of ch-image. yecch... of course ch-image does have some faster paths available. 07:05:02 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:05:10 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-138.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:05:47 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:06:36 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:06:46 NihilistDandy [~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:06:59 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:09:16 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-146-47.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:09:53 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 07:11:16 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-119-97.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:18:01 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has joined #lisp 07:18:01 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has quit [Changing host] 07:18:01 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 07:19:38 -!- pnq [~nick@AC815069.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:20:12 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-51-60.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:23:48 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.194] has joined #lisp 07:27:22 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-126-37.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:27:30 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-230-80.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:28:48 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-146-47.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:29:09 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:30:09 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:30:54 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:32:18 -!- tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-179-29-10.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:32:19 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:33:20 tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-179-29-10.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 07:35:20 -!- morlos [~morlos@cpe-76-171-76-155.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: morlos] 07:40:15 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-50-81.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:41:38 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-126-37.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:42:46 -!- SsvRrwQ [~user@S0106001c1122940c.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:45:18 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:47:56 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 07:48:11 -!- fgump [~gump@188.74.82.177] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:48:50 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-77-24.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:49:12 -!- M-sprite [~M-sprite@60.183.219.61] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:50:30 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:50:43 good morning 07:51:18 Hi 07:52:03 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 07:52:38 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:54:18 What's new? 07:57:42 maxpn [~maxp@92.126.48.156] has joined #lisp 08:02:51 blargh [43aa6450@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.170.100.80] has joined #lisp 08:05:42 so most of the Lisp advocacy essays and stuff are aimed toward C/Java/low level programmers... 08:06:28 what about somebody who sees the light of closures and lexical scoping but not of macros? I need somebody to sell me on this. 08:07:45 splittist [~John@108-161.3-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 08:07:48 morning 08:07:56 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-132-144.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 08:08:11 blargh: If you have time for that, read "Let over Lambda" - online or as book 08:08:23 You'll find some of the power of macros there 08:08:31 thanks 08:08:45 it's just, I see some macros and I think "why can't that be a function that takes and returns a function?" 08:09:04 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has joined #lisp 08:09:07 I guess it's that I'm not sure where to draw the line 08:09:21 I can't look at it from the raight angle to see where the two become orthogonal 08:09:52 Well, you can take a look at the "iterate" macro - this obviously cannot be a function 08:10:12 <_3b> a lot of macros could be functions, it would just be more verbose or less efficient 08:10:37 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 08:10:57 _3b: and sometimes hard to quote the arguments 08:11:03 <_3b> for example WHEN is a macro, since you don't want the body evaluated if the test fails, but you could just pass a lambda for the body instead 08:11:49 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has quit [Client Quit] 08:12:04 -!- splittist [~John@108-161.3-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:12:22 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 08:12:35 blargh: instead of using IF, you could use (defun if* (test then-thunk else-thunk) (funcall (cdr (assoc (not test) (list (cons t (lambda (th el) (funcall th))) (cons nil (lambda (th el) (funcall el)))))) then-thunk else-thunk)) 08:13:07 blargh: and write (if* (= a b) (lambda () (print '=) a) (lambda () (print '/=) (list a b))) 08:13:17 splittist [~John@108-161.3-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 08:13:27 I see how that would be verbose and odd-looking. A similar function could of course be written for when. 08:13:45 malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl4-140-101.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 08:13:46 It grows old as fast for any other control structure. 08:13:47 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 08:14:12 Saves you a handcramp, if nothing else 08:14:55 Writing a macro, gives you an opportunity to give a name and to hide implementation details such as the use of thunks, so it makes a much more concise and readable form. 08:15:05 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66.243.225.8] has joined #lisp 08:15:09 but I guess it's just that my instincts aren't very honed. in more complex cases I have trouble deciding which to use, and I see for instance things written by Paul Graham and think "I would not have used a macro for that right there..." 08:15:41 I should probably mention that I write a lot of Lua 08:15:54 which is very Scheme-inspired but lacks any form of macro 08:16:05 minion: tell blargh about spels 08:16:05 blargh: please see spels: Casting SPELs in Lisp, an introduction to macros, is at http://www.lisperati.com/casting.html 08:16:19 ooo thanks! 08:17:09 All documentation should come in jaunty comic book form 08:23:43 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 08:24:44 chemuduguntar [~ravi@118-92-148-22.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:26:24 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 08:28:13 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has left #lisp 08:30:03 -!- hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:30:47 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-65-68.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:32:20 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-15-14.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:32:25 hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has joined #lisp 08:32:57 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has joined #lisp 08:37:08 EarlGray [~dmytrish@beting-proceeds.volia.net] has joined #lisp 08:38:35 aerique [euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:39:31 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 08:44:58 frodef [~frode@shevek.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 08:45:13 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-230-80.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:45:27 ehu [~ehuels@109.32.126.164] has joined #lisp 08:47:31 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 08:48:33 daniel_ [~daniel@p5082AF26.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:51:24 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5B327D30.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:51:33 -!- blargh [43aa6450@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.170.100.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:57:55 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 08:59:41 kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 09:00:18 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:01:14 -!- kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:03:43 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:04:33 misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has joined #lisp 09:05:35 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-noomhyzuwhvrwvbw] has joined #lisp 09:08:30 -!- superflit [~superflit@c-67-176-26-75.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: superflit] 09:09:57 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-hwcqbfybhdgrnkcr] has joined #lisp 09:09:57 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-hwcqbfybhdgrnkcr] has quit [Changing host] 09:09:57 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 09:11:45 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.32.126.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:13:23 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 09:13:51 -!- hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:14:40 hramrach__ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has joined #lisp 09:18:15 Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has joined #lisp 09:18:55 -!- malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl4-140-101.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: malbertife] 09:19:48 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:22:29 yay. 16-bit RGB tiff reading and writing now works. 09:22:52 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:25:38 slyrus: in what context? 09:26:29 retrospectiff, my tiff I/O library, and a new image library that uses it that I'm working on 09:27:00 cool, more graphics stuff 09:32:17 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 09:32:23 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:34:37 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-132-144.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:34:46 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #lisp 09:34:54 -!- NihilistDandy [~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: reset] 09:37:28 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:41:44 NihilistDandy [~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:41:44 -!- Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:42:01 Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:43:49 -!- NihilistDandy [~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:46:52 hlavaty [~user@95-88-27-48-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:49:30 amb007 [~a_bakic@182.29.195-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 09:51:30 hello lispers :) 09:55:16 Gosh I really love that everything is capitalized by default upon being output. I'm not even being sarcastic. It makes me feel unreasonably giddy. 09:56:12 it's capitalized on input 09:58:40 shtutgart [~user@90.150.220.27] has joined #lisp 10:02:15 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:03:08 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.99.177] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:03:41 -!- thijso [~thijs@83.98.233.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:04:17 malbertife [~marcoalbe@gw-e-U-EdII.nat.fct.unl.pt] has joined #lisp 10:10:43 yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 10:10:55 RaceCondition [~erik@82.131.60.32.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 10:15:42 malbertife_ [~marcoalbe@193.136.122.17] has joined #lisp 10:16:35 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 10:18:26 -!- malbertife [~marcoalbe@gw-e-U-EdII.nat.fct.unl.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:18:26 -!- malbertife_ is now known as malbertife 10:21:29 -!- Younder [~john@224.13.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:27:38 astoon [~astoon@109.188.202.34] has joined 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I understand why ((lambda () (format nil "Hello, world"))) => "Hello world" 13:50:23 but after I do: 13:50:25 (defun foo () (lambda () (format nil "Hello, world"))) 13:50:36 why doesn't ((foo)) => "Hello world" ? 13:50:46 <|3b|> because that is how CL is defined 13:50:54 <|3b|> it might work in a scheme for example 13:51:26 oh 13:51:27 <|3b|> but CL doesn't evaluate the 'operator' in a form the same way it does other things 13:51:47 sellout [~Adium@64.134.66.121] has joined #lisp 13:52:12 <|3b|> so only symbols with a function binding (including macros and special operators) or lambda forms are allowed as operators 13:52:39 algal: as |3b| says, LAMBDA is a special magic word. 13:53:58 Okay. 13:54:01 Well say I do (foo) 13:54:13 In SBCL that shows # in the repl 13:54:19 how do I then call the returned function? 13:54:23 (*) doesn't work. 13:54:26 <|3b|> clhs funcall 13:54:26 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_funcal.htm 13:54:30 <|3b|> clhs apply 13:54:31 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apply.htm 13:55:47 <|3b|> note that (*) is evaluating * as a function, not a variable 13:56:24 brodo [~brodo@p5B025FEB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:56:32 (foo) 13:56:34 (*) 13:56:35 -!- brodo [~brodo@p5B025FEB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:56:41 (*) returns 1.. I don't understand that. 13:56:51 But I can see that: 13:56:51 (foo) 13:56:54 (funcall *) 13:56:55 <|3b|> right, 1 is the multiplicative identity 13:56:56 works... 13:56:57 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-83-71.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 13:57:10 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 13:57:18 oh.... you mean that (*) is evaluation * as the multiplication function... 13:57:25 <|3b|> same way(+) returns 0, or returns NIL, etc 13:57:33 <|3b|> (or) i mean 13:57:33 <|3b|> right 13:58:23 Is that because it's in the function position (the first position of the s-form)? or is that because of some ad-hoc rule which states that * in its role as multiplication function dominates * as the SBCL shorthand for the previous value? 13:58:27 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 13:58:32 algal: there's something more. In (foo 1 2 3), foo is the NAME of an operator. 13:58:53 In ((lambda (x y) (+ x y)) 1 2), (lambda (x y) (+ x y)) is the NAME of the function. 13:58:56 <|3b|> it is due to being in the operator position, and CL having separate namespaces for operators and variables 13:59:05 In both case, it is not evaluated. 13:59:27 *|3b|* would argue it is evaluated differently rather than 'not evaluated' 13:59:54 (operator = function or a macro. right?) 14:00:00 <|3b|> or special operator 14:00:04 When you write (defun foo () (lambda (x y) (+ x y))), in there lambda is a macro and it's macro expansion produce the expression (function (lambda (x y) (+ x y))), where (lambda (x y) (+ x y)) is the NAME of the function returned by the (function ...) form. 14:00:20 operator = function | macro | "special operator". 14:00:24 the lambda list as operator has a special entry in the evaluator. you can rationalize it after the fact, but it's not like other stuff as far as the evaluator is concerned. 14:01:19 Yes, but there's a consistency. If there's no syntactic rule for a function name, there is still a glossary definition, and you could build a grammar with such a rule. 14:01:29 <|3b|> pjb: i thought lambda forms were not names? 14:01:46 <|3b|> (though i'm pretty sure at one point before i thought they were, so i could be wrong again) 14:02:16 <|3b|> glossary only lists symbols and (setf foo) as 'function name's though 14:02:19 pjb: is there any way I can use macroexpand to see how this expansion works? (macroexpand (defun foo () (lambda (x y) (+ x y)))) is not showing it 14:02:54 algal: macroexpand is a normal function and evaluates its arguments. try delaying evaluation with quote. 14:02:57 pjb: also, doesn't lambda expanding to lambda imply an infinite recusion? Sorry if this is a dumb question.. still learning. 14:03:00 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-230-80.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:03:19 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:03:23 <|3b|> algal: lambda expands to function, which is a special operator 14:03:47 <|3b|> algal: so when (lambda ...) is passed to FUNCTION, it isn't evaluated normally, so doesn't get expanded again 14:03:58 algal: you could macroexpand by pieces, or use a code walker. In clisp, you can use (ext:expand-form '(defun ...)) 14:04:20 antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 14:04:21 algal: but unless you're interestedin the defun macro, you will be satisfied by (macroexpand '(lambda (x) (1+ x0))) 14:05:19 oconnore [~eric@ip68-230-164-105.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:05:57 algal: lambda doesn't expand to a lambda form, but to a function form. FUNCTION is a special operator that takes the name of a function, that is, either a symbol, a (setf name) list or a lambda form. Strangely 14:06:10 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:06:47 (footnote 13 seems relevant http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/functions.html) 14:06:50 -!- oconnore [~eric@ip68-230-164-105.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:07:53 Hmm.. 14:08:36 Thanks for the help guys. I think I get it. I think I need to sit down and re-read the distinction between forms, names, symbols, operators, functions, etc.. There's at least one subtlety here I'm missing, but I'm not sure which one. 14:08:40 froydnj [~froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has joined #lisp 14:09:08 algal: keep reading CLHS and its glossary, it'll come eventually. 14:09:15 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.205] has joined #lisp 14:09:21 <|3b|> clhs 3.1.2 14:09:21 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_ab.htm 14:09:30 <|3b|> ^ that describes all the details 14:09:38 thx 14:10:38 -!- leifw [~leif@ool-18bac6ad.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:10:43 -!- LiamH [~healy@129-2-134-55.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:10:47 LiamH [~healy@129-2-134-55.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 14:16:27 oconnore [~eric@ip68-230-164-105.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:36 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-230-80.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:17:43 -!- LiamH [~healy@129-2-134-55.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:18:29 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 14:18:56 -!- sellout [~Adium@64.134.66.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:19:13 panike [~nwp@fw.lmcg.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 14:21:16 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.205] has quit [Quit: Offline] 14:21:53 If I'm defining an operator that updates the value at a place, does my operator need to be a macro? Or is it possible to do that with a function? 14:23:10 it would need to be a macro 14:23:29 koning_robot: hmm.. ok,thanks. 14:23:59 sellout [~Adium@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 14:24:05 jemmaniam [~Jemman@ip68-228-13-119.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:24 -!- Adrinael [~adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:24:28 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Quit] 14:24:36 So does that mean you need to use a macro anytime you want to write an operator that in some sense modifies one of its parameters? 14:25:04 <|3b|> no, it depends on what you want to modify 14:25:08 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:25:21 <|3b|> for example you can modify the contents of an array passed to a function 14:25:37 zomgbie [~jesus@84.119.84.159] has joined #lisp 14:25:53 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:25:55 <|3b|> but you can't reliably modify a list, since it might be NIL 14:26:00 |3b|: ah, ok. 14:26:21 <|3b|> and you can't modify numbers or characters at all 14:26:22 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:26:35 -!- jemmaniam is now known as _jemmaniam 14:26:38 <|3b|> so for numbers, characters, lists you need to modify bindings instead which would require a macro 14:27:31 -!- _jemmaniam is now known as jemmaniam_ 14:27:34 Basically I'm trying to write an operator of the form (foo inputparam output). 14:27:44 foo will get called repeatedly with different inputparams 14:27:55 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 14:27:58 I imagine the output will accumulate in output. 14:28:13 It sounds like if I want to use a list to represent the output, then foo needs to be a macro. 14:28:16 -!- jemmaniam_ is now known as jemman_iam 14:28:51 But if output is backed by a vector, then foo can be a function. 14:28:53 -!- jemman_iam is now known as jemmaniam 14:30:14 <|3b|> for the list case, it might be better to write a function that returns a new list with the new output added to the previous output 14:30:31 algal: to define an operator that updates a place, you would use defsetf or define-setf-expander 14:30:44 and write (setf (your-operator ...) new-value) 14:30:44 <|3b|> then if you need to, write a macro that calls that and assigns the results back to a particular place 14:30:50 Adrinael [~adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 14:30:57 _8david: do you have some example code using cl+ssl through posix fd's (as opposed to cl streams)? or any pointer what I should read if I wanted to add ssl support to our web server? 14:31:22 algal: or, trivially, you can define a function or generic function named (setf your-operator) 14:31:49 (defun (setf my-operator) (new-value object-that-will-be-changed) (change-the-object object-that-will-be-changed) new-value) 14:32:19 Then you can write: (setf (my-operator any-place-referencing-the-object-that-will-be-changed) new-value) 14:35:50 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:35:57 hmmm... 14:36:14 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-229-235.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:36:46 -!- billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:36:55 I don't want to redefine foo to just return the updated value, b/c it's already returning a lambda closure with the environment for the next call to foo.. That's why I wanted accumulated the actual return value in a place passed to the function. 14:37:11 e.g., (foo inputparam *result*) 14:37:19 (funcall *) 14:37:21 (funcall *0 14:37:22 vokoda` [~user@host86-150-84-27.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:37:23 etc.. 14:37:30 building up the result in *result*. 14:38:24 So if I want *result* to be list-based, it seems like I'm obliged to do what pjb suggests and write setf operators. 14:38:27 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:39:35 it seems odd that an implemenation detail (the data structure backing my result object) so force what seems like a higher-level choice about implementing the function as either a function or a macro. 14:39:46 Raykon [~user@2001:690:2100:1b:3615:9eff:fe97:888b] has joined #lisp 14:39:47 hello lispers 14:39:58 Is that typical? Or a sign of my confusion? 14:40:01 That's because there's no list in lisp. 14:40:02 -!- vokoda [~user@host86-179-139-119.range86-179.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:40:05 vokoda`` [~user@host86-150-86-4.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:40:12 More precisely, not list ADT or object. 14:40:21 Happy New Year! It's the year of the rabbit. 14:40:27 There are just cons cell that are (ab)used to make lists and other structures. 14:41:02 So when you use lists, you better use them in a functional way, and idiomatically. 14:41:12 pjb: Yes. What I'm encountering is the absence of a uniform interface to data structure types. 14:41:14 -!- benny [~benny@i577A3B43.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:41:30 Or you can wrap them in a struct, if you prefer. 14:41:40 antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 14:41:41 You may also mind define-modify-macro, but it imposes an order on the parameters (the modified place must be first). 14:42:02 -!- vokoda` [~user@host86-150-84-27.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:42:27 -!- sellout [~Adium@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 242 seconds] 14:42:44 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.199] has joined #lisp 14:43:51 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 14:44:00 algal: you can wrap all your data in CLOS objects. This provides a nice uniform interface to data structure types. 14:44:27 silenius [~silenus@p4FC22BDD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:44:34 See also messages in cll this week. 14:46:04 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:46:31 sellout [~Adium@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:35 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:46:36 pjb: thx. my only objection to define-modify-macro is that I haven't used it before. 14:46:46 Hmm. CRC errors on the darcs repo for named-readtables. Should I be worried? 14:46:58 -!- sellout is now known as Guest50484 14:47:18 rtoym: can you unilaterally move f2cl from cvs to git on sourceforge? 14:48:15 Yes and no. It's part of clocc, so I'm not sure how that would work. But for quite some time, I thought of just breaking it out and putting it somewhere else. 14:48:18 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:48:54 that would be nice from my point of view. 14:49:18 *rtoym* doesn't think anyone uses f2cl except him. 14:50:14 Xach: I'll see what I can do. I can put it on cl.net, but that will take a little bit of time. 14:50:29 benny [~benny@i577A1B4C.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:50:49 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:50:50 -!- Guest50484 [~Adium@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:51:32 -!- misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 14:52:09 Xach: How does having it with git help you? Do you keep a local copy and update once in a while? 14:53:05 JuniorRoy [~JuniorRoy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 14:53:32 rtoym: sourceforge cvs is the primary pain point. 14:53:55 Because it's been historically somewhat unreliable? 14:54:01 rtoym: with git, i can produce a snapshot from version control without roundtripping to the server. nicer than CVS. 14:54:13 rtoym: well, historically, and currently down hard for a week. 14:55:09 rtoym: did you hear about the hack and CVS shutoff? 14:55:17 f2cl hasn't changed in quite some time. :-) 14:55:33 Yes, I read about it. Even updated my sf password when asked. 14:55:52 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-131-187.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:56:42 rtoym: That causes problems for attempting to update or make tarballs from SF CVS repos. 14:57:10 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-173-125.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:57:50 mcguitan83 [~carcola@negroni.enst.fr] has joined #lisp 14:58:03 So, CVS servers were compromised on sf. I didn't know that. 14:58:43 I didn't know that either. I do know that CVS has been turned off for a long time now. 14:59:29 I was just reading SF blog entry for today. 15:00:23 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 15:02:52 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-83-71.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:05:14 rtoym: Kung Hei Fat Choi/Gong Xi Fa Cai! 15:05:24 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:05:24 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 15:05:44 splittist: You too! 15:08:40 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:09:00 fe[nl]ix: How important is it to you to have usernames/emails in series git repo? 15:10:17 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 15:10:43 rtoym: a lot :) 15:10:52 but my opinion is not very important here 15:10:56 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.199] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:11:55 -!- Raykon [~user@2001:690:2100:1b:3615:9eff:fe97:888b] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:12:04 What do you do with the old usernames/emails? They don't really exist anymore, afaict. (Well, I could hack my new address in, but the historical addresses are dead.) 15:12:50 -!- JuniorRoy [~JuniorRoy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:13:14 they serve more as an unique identifier than as actual SMTP endpoints 15:14:28 btw, you said that there are two branches in the CVS repository 15:14:54 Yes, there's at least two. 15:15:04 JuniorRoy [~JuniorRoy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 15:15:35 how do I find out which ones ? 15:16:08 or, how do I distinguish branch tags from static tags ? 15:16:13 cvs status isn't very useful 15:17:20 You can't, afaik. But no problem! There are no branch tags in series. I was lazy and stupid when I did that. 15:19:34 -!- xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-174-106.lns20.mel6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:21:44 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-173-125.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:21:57 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:22:31 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:23:42 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-tlwsjlmiqijawuti] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:26:07 -!- vokoda`` is now known as vokoda 15:27:07 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-78-193.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:27:42 vokodal [~user@host86-150-86-4.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 15:28:16 -!- vokodal is now known as vokoda` 15:28:24 -!- vokoda` [~user@host86-150-86-4.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has left #lisp 15:28:34 -!- vokoda [~user@host86-150-86-4.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:29:45 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:29:53 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-173-125.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:30:07 vokoda [~user@host86-150-86-4.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 15:30:07 -!- vokoda [~user@host86-150-86-4.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 15:30:07 vokoda [~user@unaffiliated/vokoda] has joined #lisp 15:30:42 malbertife_ [~marcoalbe@gw-e-U-EdII.nat.fct.unl.pt] has joined #lisp 15:33:32 -!- malbertife [~marcoalbe@193.136.122.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:33:33 -!- malbertife_ is now known as malbertife 15:34:12 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:36:25 xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-117-107.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:33 jajcloz [~jaj@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:35 adu [~ajr@pool-173-79-54-138.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:40:15 -!- gko [~gko@220-136-79-197.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:40:51 -!- keyvan [~nox@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:42:34 -!- JuniorRoy [~JuniorRoy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:43:24 -!- reb` [~user@nat/google/x-yizausiytsjolkoa] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:44:06 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.205] has joined #lisp 15:45:11 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:46:38 felideon [~felideon@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:36 -!- hramrach__ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:48:56 keyvan [~nox@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:58 -!- joeygibson [~joeygibso@208.52.139.50] has left #lisp 15:49:39 -!- sm` [~s@78.157.15.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:49:43 sellout [~Adium@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 15:51:50 hramrach__ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has joined #lisp 15:51:58 brown [~user@nat/google/x-tddztdngcjajqanz] has joined #lisp 15:52:11 does anybody know how can I check with emacs-el if speedbar is visible ? 15:52:25 -!- brown is now known as Guest74363 15:53:03 -!- Guest74363 is now known as reb 15:53:43 kiuma: Try #emacs. 15:53:46 nevermind, found 15:53:58 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 15:54:03 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:54:12 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has left #lisp 15:54:24 morning 15:54:32 hello slyrus 15:55:35 yo slyrus 15:56:25 slyrus: i saw your ch-image updates 15:56:39 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.205] has quit [Quit: Offline] 15:57:18 just in time for me to make ch-image (even more) obsolete, or make redundant, as the brits say :) 15:59:07 how so? 16:03:45 Xach: I'm working on a new image library 16:04:01 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-79-54-138.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 16:04:15 Woo hoo 16:07:03 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 16:07:07 sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 16:07:50 smka [~s@78.157.15.219] has joined #lisp 16:09:53 sm` [~s@78.157.15.219] has joined #lisp 16:12:20 -!- smka [~s@78.157.15.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:14:10 -!- sm` [~s@78.157.15.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:14:18 ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 16:14:20 Kruppe [~user@CPE00222d128ba2-CM00222d128b9e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:17:44 gko [~gko@220-136-83-199.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 16:19:20 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip68-231-47-70.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:20:34 -!- Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:23:14 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:24:30 superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.148] has joined #lisp 16:25:35 -!- gko [~gko@220-136-83-199.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [] 16:27:31 gko [~gko@220-136-83-199.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:38 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@82.131.60.32.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:27:38 -!- js0000 [~js@67.208.188.68] has quit [Quit: rebooting] 16:29:38 |nix| [~user@66-194-253-20.static.twtelecom.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:00 csamuelson [~csamuelso@173-14-110-121-nashville.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:58 astoon [~astoon@109.188.248.78] has joined #lisp 16:32:09 konr [~user@ira.lab.ic.unicamp.br] has joined #lisp 16:32:25 -!- gko [~gko@220-136-83-199.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:33:03 gko [~gko@220-136-83-199.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:11 serichsen [~user@switch1.elmi.uni-bonn.de] has joined #lisp 16:33:17 Hello! 16:34:54 sm` [s@78.157.15.219] has joined #lisp 16:36:16 sugarshark [~ole@p4FDA8278.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:37:56 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:38:59 What's the easiest way to call a function and have it wait for a specified amount of wall time? (I'm trying to pace my requests to a server.) 16:39:11 myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 16:39:13 clhs sleep 16:39:13 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sleep.htm 16:39:20 -!- sm` [s@78.157.15.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:39:22 great. thanks. 16:39:31 was searching on wait etc.. just finding thread stuff. 16:40:50 -!- silenius [~silenus@p4FC22BDD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:41:10 cbbrowne [~user@tor-gateway.afilias.info] has joined #lisp 16:42:03 -!- gko [~gko@220-136-83-199.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:42:05 -!- reb [~user@nat/google/x-tddztdngcjajqanz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:42:14 -!- astoon [~astoon@109.188.248.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:43:21 corruptmemory [~jim@96.246.167.18] has joined #lisp 16:43:54 -!- tcr2 [~tcr@212.47.174.118] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:44:40 -!- xan_ [~xan@245.Red-79-157-129.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:44:48 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 16:45:54 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:48:15 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 16:51:25 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 16:52:37 I'm starting to hate emacs speedbar 16:53:32 I never found much use for it, myself 16:55:12 kiuma: isn't it more for development environments where you have a thousand little files in a complex hierarchy created as soon as you being your 'project'? I'm not sure lisp fits so sqaurely in that camp. 16:57:52 splittist, it depends by the complexity of the software, anyway I'll add an environment variable to disable speedbar synchro 16:58:53 you can make a project editor without speedbar 16:59:13 ASau` [~user@95-27-147-227.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 16:59:47 Well, you could store each toplevel form in its own file, and have emacs manage it automatically. You'd say edit my-package:appendf, and it would find the file to edit automatically. You could use completion or a buffer listing the symbols you want. 17:00:15 -!- ASau [~user@95-27-147-227.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:00:21 I find that rather irrelevant. C-x C-s my-function RET or C-c C-s my-function RET is the same, from my point of view. 17:00:33 or C-x C-f my-function RET 17:00:46 or you can store every TLF in PostgreSQL 17:02:09 Exactly. 17:02:57 with versioning 17:02:57 There's a psql.el around here which is very nice to use. 17:02:57 files are so 1960s 17:03:00 Have a look at http://git.informatimago.com/viewgit/index.php?a=viewblob&p=public/emacs&h=23611ca9e1a691ffd1d1a343213bee3fe3c3c39f&hb=HEAD&f=psql.el 17:03:11 RaceCondition [~erik@87-119-162-216.tll.elisa.ee] has joined #lisp 17:03:14 -!- csamuelson [~csamuelso@173-14-110-121-nashville.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:03:19 I store all my shortcuts in /dev/random 17:03:21 Actually, the interface is in pg.el 17:03:25 look at Interlisp 17:03:39 Exactly. We could make emacs more like it. 17:03:55 Paredit is one step in this direction, that of a structural editor. 17:04:09 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 17:05:16 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:05:37 ok I'll soon release the project, then if you want and have time to, you can give me suggestions and impressions 17:06:48 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@87-119-162-216.tll.elisa.ee] has quit [Client Quit] 17:14:16 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:14:49 antgreen` [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 17:17:48 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.205] has joined #lisp 17:18:05 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 17:18:13 leo2007 [~leo@222.79.248.63] has joined #lisp 17:19:03 -!- dcrawford [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:19:08 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:19:57 macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-152-12.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 17:20:09 jikanter [~a@66.146.192.103] has joined #lisp 17:21:52 hrm... retrospectiff seems to have a bug in writing large grayscale TIFFs :( 17:22:41 rgov [~rgov@128.213.33.222] has joined #lisp 17:23:24 dcrawford_ [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:23:24 dcrawford [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:23:45 -!- dcrawford_ [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Client Quit] 17:24:21 -!- Spion__ [~spion@77.29.250.12] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:24:44 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 17:24:49 -!- Kruppe [~user@CPE00222d128ba2-CM00222d128b9e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:25:12 rgov pasted "yason-double-float" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/119341 17:25:20 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:25:29 Could someone help me identify the problem with the above paste in clisp? 17:25:48 jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-138.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:26:09 Well, double-float doesn't name a class. 17:26:14 What did you expect? 17:26:34 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-132-144.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 17:26:51 sm` [~s@78.157.15.219] has joined #lisp 17:27:04 Well, it works in LispWorks, which I am trying to move away from, and the package claims to be in ANSI Common Lisp 17:27:06 so i am surprised it fails 17:27:28 rgov: double-float is _not_ Common Lisp, it may be specific to lispworks :) 17:27:36 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:27:42 ok 17:27:55 rgov: wait a second, I might be wrong actually 17:28:05 rgov: float would be a system class. 17:28:27 why is float a class but not double-float? 17:28:32 Because. 17:28:37 That's how it's defined. 17:29:18 The reason IMO is because the definition of short-float single-float double-float and long-float is implementation dependant. 17:29:50 brown [~user@nat/google/x-gycbjkiywxogqbvd] has joined #lisp 17:30:15 -!- brown is now known as Guest51618 17:30:22 <_death> rgov: see http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/49a6bf9b198d0155 re the difference between representational types and abstract types 17:30:35 -!- malbertife [~marcoalbe@gw-e-U-EdII.nat.fct.unl.pt] has quit [Quit: malbertife] 17:30:50 -!- Guest51618 is now known as reb 17:30:51 and should the handling of floats be different? 17:31:12 probably no way to do like an #ifdef for lispworks vs clisp i bet 17:31:15 float is defined in an implementation independant way. 17:31:33 rgov: yes there is. But it's not advised to use it, no more than #ifdef. 17:32:15 so it would be (defmethod encode ((object float) &optional (stream *standard-output*)) (let ((single-float (coerce object 'single-float))) ...)) 17:32:23 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:24 -!- Grazl [~Grazl@11.Red-79-150-124.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 17:32:31 Grazl [~Grazl@11.Red-79-150-124.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:34 -!- panike [~nwp@fw.lmcg.wisc.edu] has left #lisp 17:32:45 That would be reasonable, but I fail to see why you wouldn't want to encode long-floats too. 17:33:11 I've committed slime project in github, for anyone possibly interested, https://github.com/kiuma/slime-project any comment would be very appreciated. 17:33:22 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has left #lisp 17:33:23 pjb: that would work on long-floats too (as long as they fit into a single-float) 17:33:34 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:34:27 s/would/will/ 17:35:02 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:35:19 kiuma: this looks very similar to quickproject and quicklisp. In fact, the first part of the README seems almost identical. 17:40:08 Spion__ [~spion@77.29.250.12] has joined #lisp 17:42:35 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:42:44 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756e3c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:42:53 I have a problem with using sb-sprof. Apparently SB-VM::GENERIC-+ is called very often. I can't figure out which line in my code this corresponds to. The disassembly doesn't show the sampling information. I use sbcl on amd64 and sb-thread enabled. 17:43:12 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.205] has quit [Quit: Offline] 17:43:45 if you use slime-sprof, it would show you what calls generic-+ 17:43:53 mk2: sprof can show call tree data. 17:43:57 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756e3c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:43:59 sykopomp, yes it is an evolution of quickproject 17:44:12 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:44:21 smka [~s@78.157.15.219] has joined #lisp 17:44:39 pkhuong: what if he calls it in multiple locations within a function? 17:44:42 GENERIC-+ will be used when you use + on values of too-wide (static) type. If you compiled with (speed 3), the compiler will throw a half dozen optimisation notes for those call sites. 17:44:53 -!- jemmaniam [~Jemman@ip68-228-13-119.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:44:57 gko_ [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:13 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756e3c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:15 I'll add a template capabitly one of these days 17:45:16 I've often wished for simple line numbers in debugging information 17:45:26 -!- sm` [~s@78.157.15.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:45:30 dlowe: just split it! 17:45:53 dlowe: I'd rather have source locations. 17:46:11 pkhuong: I can't find documentation on the call tree print out and can't figure out what it means. 17:46:13 -!- gko_ [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:46:30 mk2: it's the same format as gprof. 17:46:34 mk2: do you use Slime? 17:47:01 stassats`: Yes, I use Slime. 17:47:02 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:17 RaceCondition [~erik@87-119-162-216.tll.elisa.ee] has joined #lisp 17:47:17 mk2: it has slime-sprof contrib, which displays everything in a nice way 17:47:29 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:47:30 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 17:48:50 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:57 sm` [~s@78.157.15.219] has joined #lisp 17:50:06 -!- lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:50:11 stassats`: Okay. I first try understanding the call graph. slime-sprof I probably have to install first. 17:50:22 no, you have to enable it first 17:50:44 -!- smka [~s@78.157.15.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:50:47 rgov pasted "cl-store load error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/119342 17:50:58 which is either M-x slime-enable-contrib to enable it in the current session, or putting it into your slime-setup call for long term enabling 17:51:04 -!- hlavaty [~user@95-88-27-48-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:51:09 any thoughts on this # is locked error ? ^ 17:51:59 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@87-119-162-216.tll.elisa.ee] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:52:06 cl-store uses an internal variable, which is no longer present, and it's tried to be interned 17:52:09 RaceCondition [~erik@87-119-162-216.tll.elisa.ee] has joined #lisp 17:53:30 rgov: What CL implementation is that? gcl? 17:53:34 clisp 17:53:36 Oh, clisp. 17:54:26 -!- maxpn [~maxp@92.126.48.156] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:54:41 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.205] has joined #lisp 17:55:01 so clisp changed and cl-store is relying on outdated functionality? 17:55:27 rgov: That's what it looks like. 17:56:10 that's what you get for using unexported symbols 17:56:11 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-noomhyzuwhvrwvbw] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:56:39 is there a suggested replacement 17:56:59 i'd replace clisp, but your MMV 17:58:08 rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:11 stassats`: slime-sprof gives [No Match] when I give it to slime-enable-contrib even though its in the contrib/ dir of where I installed it. 17:58:40 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 17:58:57 adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:45 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:59:46 -!- antgreen` [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:00:04 mk2: indeed 18:00:14 you can use M-: (slime-setup '(slime-sprof)) 18:00:27 tcleval [~funnyguy@186.213.8.168] has joined #lisp 18:00:35 rgov: where did you get your cl-store? I can load cl-store in clisp 2.49 with quicklisp just fine. 18:00:54 rgov: maybe the darcs version has unreleased fixes? 18:01:11 or "when did you get it" 18:01:26 10 minutes ago, on the website, but clicking the 'latest' download link 18:01:53 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:02:08 it does look like the darcs source has newer changes 18:02:14 Tue May 11 13:51:19 MSD 2010 rosssd@gmail.com * allow for clisp's with no sys::%make-closure 18:02:18 changed to 18:02:19 (funcall (find-symbol "%MAKE-CLOSURE" "SYS") name codevec consts () lambda-list doc) 18:02:23 Latest Version 0.8.10 02/11/2009 18:02:25 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@87-119-162-216.tll.elisa.ee] has quit [Quit: RaceCondition] 18:03:54 regular releases in CL-land is a rare thing 18:04:08 -!- mcguitan83 [~carcola@negroni.enst.fr] has left #lisp 18:04:20 you can nudge the maintainer 18:04:21 2009 is like fresh from the oven 18:04:40 2009 is so last decade 18:06:25 stassats`: Cool. The slime-browser for sprof is nice. 18:07:11 kiuma: you should mention the quickproject antecedents. Also you seem to be ignoring quickproject's licence. (Which is a bit ironic.) 18:07:14 -!- sm` [~s@78.157.15.219] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:07:37 sm` [~s@78.157.15.219] has joined #lisp 18:08:04 :( clisp just sigsegv'd 18:08:50 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-138.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:11:43 -!- algal [~anonymous@92.26.7.209] has quit [Quit: algal] 18:12:52 antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 18:13:54 seems like cl-store crashes after outputing about 100 MB 18:14:05 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@12-73-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:14:33 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.81.200] has joined #lisp 18:14:47 Sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 18:14:59 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 18:15:13 splittist, this was unwanted to mention quickproject no problem, just forgotten. I don't understand about the license, what shoud I do ? 18:16:35 carlocci [~nes@93.37.194.27] has joined #lisp 18:17:14 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:18:04 hans_ [~hans@host197-58-dynamic.58-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:18:46 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:19:02 Is that a sentence? 18:20:21 Point is. Why do I seem to be ignoring quickproject's licence ? 18:20:32 -!- tcleval [~funnyguy@186.213.8.168] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:20:33 xan_ [~xan@245.Red-79-157-129.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:53 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 18:22:33 I thought that simply copying the LICENSE file and updating year and author will suffice. Xach can you please tell me what should I do ? 18:22:48 so that I can commit updates 18:23:25 *license 18:23:31 kiuma: Read what the license says you must do, then do it. 18:23:49 I'm saying that I don't understand 18:23:50 I do not really want to explain it, sorry. 18:23:59 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:23:59 .! 18:26:14 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:29:04 talyz [~user@ip35.tunnan.riksnet.nu] has joined #lisp 18:31:02 -!- serichsen [~user@switch1.elmi.uni-bonn.de] has quit [Quit: ::1] 18:31:37 RaceCondition [~erik@87-119-162-216.tll.elisa.ee] has joined #lisp 18:31:38 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@87-119-162-216.tll.elisa.ee] has quit [Client Quit] 18:32:28 timor [~timor@port-92-195-52-202.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:34:13 RaceCondition [~erik@87-119-162-216.tll.elisa.ee] has joined #lisp 18:35:30 bye 18:35:38 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:36:21 -!- rgov [~rgov@128.213.33.222] has left #lisp 18:37:25 -!- oconnore [~eric@ip68-230-164-105.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:37:34 oconnore [~eric@ip68-230-164-105.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:42 -!- oconnore [~eric@ip68-230-164-105.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:37:58 oconnore [~eric@ip68-230-164-105.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:07 -!- oconnore [~eric@ip68-230-164-105.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:38:40 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-173-125.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:39:31 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 18:40:43 I have a do-loop and want to push things on an initially empty list. Can I use '() as initialization or is (list) better? Whats the difference? 18:41:20 churib: they are equivalent. i prefer to write '(). 18:41:44 rdd [~user@c83-250-51-60.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:41:58 *stassats`* prefers to write () 18:41:58 But it's not okay to modify quoted lists like '(1 2 3)? 18:42:00 Xach: kiuma was having trouble understanding quickproject/license.txt? it reads pretty straighforward to me 18:42:02 malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl11-213-41.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 18:42:07 churib: correct, it's no ok 18:42:09 churib: '() is not a quoted list 18:42:11 it's NIL 18:42:23 not* 18:42:28 Ah, right. Thanks! 18:42:42 rien_: perhaps the language barrier is too high. 18:42:43 (which is a list too, incidentally) 18:43:22 and it's quoted 18:43:29 -!- jikanter [~a@66.146.192.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:43:29 Saturnation [~dsouth@64.223.106.238] has joined #lisp 18:43:32 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@87-119-162-216.tll.elisa.ee] has quit [Quit: RaceCondition] 18:43:49 '() is a list of two symbols that evaluats to a list of zero symbols. 18:44:05 and also one symbol. 18:44:10 Xach: that makes sense, judging by his sentences. 18:44:21 and an atom 18:44:44 and it's not OK to modify NIL 18:44:52 when might (directory "/mnt/blah/*") not return all the files in /mnt/blah? 18:44:53 so '() is (quote nil) rather than (quote ())? 18:45:08 koning_robot: there's no difference between NIL and () 18:45:10 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-155-193-226.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:37 Saturnation: when you don't use *.*? 18:46:06 on a linux box? it works in my home directory, but not in this directory (which I can ls all the files in as well) 18:46:18 churib: and PUSH doesn't modify lists 18:46:23 stassats`, Silly dos 8.3 :) 18:46:33 Saturnation: on any box 18:46:42 works in my home directory 18:46:53 stassats`: it's more a cons as i understood 18:46:53 (directory "~/*") returns everything 18:46:54 Saturnation: because your home directory doesn't contain files with extensions? 18:47:00 i was just trying to get how '() isn't a "quoted list", seeing as it's a list, and it's quoted. oh well, not that it matters 18:47:02 gigamonkey: u2, u4 and friends are all big-endian, riight? 18:47:06 *Saturnation* checks 18:47:19 do you have little-endian counterparts in your code or should I provide? 18:47:41 damn, that's not what I would have expected 18:47:43 koning_robot: i wanted to say that NIL is not the same as '(1 2 3), which churib called "quoted lists" 18:47:50 which is a bad copying on my part 18:48:07 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@adsl-32-14-100.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 18:48:08 Atomsk [ace4016@adsl-32-14-100.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:20 thanks stassats`, I feel a bit sideswiped, but thanks :) 18:48:26 koning_robot: also, () is a self-evaluating object. it evaluates to the same with and without the quote 18:49:02 splendid 18:50:02 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:51:02 slyrus: that sounds right. 18:51:16 I don't have little endian versions. 18:51:28 bah. OK :) 18:52:06 Raykon [~user@2001:690:2100:1b:3615:9eff:fe97:888b] has joined #lisp 18:52:08 NihilistDandy [~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:18 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:53:38 *slyrus* feels the urge to rewrite everything 18:53:49 :D 18:54:36 pkhuong: I figured out, why my function was too slow. 18:59:07 js0000 [~js@67.208.188.68] has joined #lisp 18:59:27 -!- splittist [~John@108-161.3-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:59:49 gz_ [~gz@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:07 seangrove [~user@173.151.38.164] has joined #lisp 19:00:48 daly [~user@dynamic-acs-72-23-235-203.zoominternet.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:55 join #foobaz 19:01:06 -!- gz_ [~gz@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 19:07:00 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75c444.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:04 hi 19:08:10 Hi 19:09:03 -!- Raykon [~user@2001:690:2100:1b:3615:9eff:fe97:888b] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:10:05 Raykon [~user@2001:690:2100:1b:3615:9eff:fe97:888b] has joined #lisp 19:10:50 -!- incandenza [~incandenz@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:11:30 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:13:28 -!- Atomsk [ace4016@adsl-32-14-100.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: When there's nothing left to burn you have to set yourself on fire.] 19:13:30 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-78-193.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:13:48 NihilistDandy: Are you a bot? 19:13:50 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-78-193.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:13:54 Nope 19:13:58 What's up? 19:14:02 Unless I'm a very good bot :D 19:14:08 Not much, you? 19:14:22 Trying to install Oracle libraries to try building clsql-oracle. 19:14:39 sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 19:15:10 How's that going? I've never actually played around with Oracle 19:16:04 incandenza [~incandenz@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:27 UFFI does not see them. 19:18:49 groveling them? 19:18:57 pers [~user@100.sub-75-196-185.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 19:19:13 or do you get an "undefined symbol" kind of error? 19:20:37 > Couldn't load foreign libraries "libclntsh", "oci". (searched *FOREIGN-LIBRARY-SEARCH-PATHS*) 19:20:47 But there they are, right over there in /usr/local/lib 19:21:15 oci.so? or liboci.so? 19:21:26 Maybe add a more direct path? Seems odd that it wouldn't find them 19:21:58 Hmm, I guess it is neither oci.so nor liboci.so. 19:22:00 *Xach* keeps looking 19:22:27 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-103-152.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 19:22:38 Xach: I think there may be ugly things with LD_LIBRARY_PATH, and possible an Oracle-specific environment variable too (ORACLE_HOME?) 19:23:03 RaceCondition [~erik@87-119-162-216.tll.elisa.ee] has joined #lisp 19:23:55 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.205] has quit [Quit: Offline] 19:24:09 gigamonkey: it has (slightly) different goals than binary-data does, but you should check out ramarren's cl-parser-combinators 19:26:44 *Xach* gives up for now 19:27:10 -!- Raykon [~user@2001:690:2100:1b:3615:9eff:fe97:888b] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:27:21 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-173-125.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:28:18 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@87-119-162-216.tll.elisa.ee] has quit [Quit: RaceCondition] 19:29:29 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-229-235.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:29:48 -!- pers [~user@100.sub-75-196-185.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:29:58 pers [~user@100.sub-75-196-185.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 19:31:01 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-229-235.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:31:25 oconnore [~eric@adsl-80-218-110.mcn.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:29 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-78-193.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:32:49 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-78-193.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:34:53 -!- chemuduguntar [~ravi@118-92-148-22.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:39:16 -!- malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl11-213-41.dsl.telepac.pt] has left #lisp 19:41:08 cheez [~Adium@206-248-177-146.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 19:41:36 -!- tsuru` is now known as tsuru 19:43:29 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 19:44:43 gigamonkey: TIFF is a bit ugly as it requires random access through the file to be able to parse it correctly :( 19:47:19 *Xach* likes the II or MM dispatching 19:47:23 so that would be why they load slowly, even from a local disk (: 19:48:15 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:48:57 mmap it! 19:49:49 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:58 is there anywhere i can get an (obviously incomplete) grammar for common lisp? 19:50:00 slyrus: weird. 19:50:15 oconnore: the grammar is quite simple. 19:50:18 hey, it's adobe, what'd ya expect? 19:50:24 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:50:44 slyrus: a turing complete language which will describe the image 19:50:52 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:55 My friend who used to work at Apple told me a story about Adobe where they had some shared library they had to link into one of their flagship products for which they had lost the source. 19:51:06 stassats`: that's the beauty of the ii or mm dispatching - the file format allows for either endianness depending on a field in the header. 19:51:11 Nobody knew quite what it was for but they know the code crashed if they didn't link it in. 19:51:11 -!- Saturnation [~dsouth@64.223.106.238] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 19:51:14 "intel" or "motorola" format. 19:51:30 gigamonkey: that sounds hilarious. how do they support other architectures? (: 19:51:33 oh wait, they don't (; 19:51:46 -!- seangrove [~user@173.151.38.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:51:52 (maybe that's why they took so long to come out with 64-bit stuff (-:) 19:51:53 antifuchs: well, this was back pre-PPC I think. So it caused some problems when they had to port. 19:52:03 reminds me of http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/magic-story.html 19:52:22 gigamonkey: ok (: 19:52:53 gigamonkey: I assume the nasal demons won't attack if I sprinkle some (setf file-position ...) calls throughout my read-value functions? 19:53:24 slyrus: file-position isn't setf-able (: 19:53:36 it has an optional second argument 19:54:01 Yeah, other than those nasal demons. 19:54:13 (that antifuchs just pointed out) 19:54:16 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:54:22 yeah, yeah :) 19:54:25 i think it's safe for at least (unsigned-byte 8) streams 19:54:27 I think that should be okay. 19:54:35 also, you won't be able to read tiffs from sockets 19:54:46 read/write 19:54:47 but not sure if you want that anyway (: 19:54:56 well. Tough folks. Lose the source for a key library, but they soldier on! 19:54:57 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.15/2009101909]] 19:55:00 Though obviously you may need to set it back to appropriate values after you're done jumping around. 19:55:36 prxq: more like severely mismanaged folks. how /do/ you lose source code? 19:56:09 antifuchs: point. 19:56:26 (given you have a working infrastructure and working backups) 19:56:27 i guess that doesn't happen anymore. 19:56:50 -!- NihilistDandy [~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:56:53 well, the best backup is to go opensource and let everyone copy your code 19:56:54 you know what they say about multiple ways to perform actions & catastrophes (: 19:57:21 -!- nixnyan [~user@66-194-253-20.static.twtelecom.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:57:28 -!- |nix| [~user@66-194-253-20.static.twtelecom.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:58:17 |nix| [~user@66-194-253-20.static.twtelecom.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:26 pre PPC is also *quite* a while ago. 80's or something. And it wasn't a unix shop. 20:00:09 90s 20:00:16 prxq: not exactly, there was A/UX 20:00:46 slyrus: PPC is 91, so yeah, by a thin margin :-) 20:01:21 oh wow a/ux! 20:01:36 csamuelson [~csamuelso@173-14-110-121-nashville.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:01 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 20:02:01 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 20:02:01 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 20:02:32 prxq: A/UX sounds quite nifty, pity they dropped it 20:02:49 prxq: i worked on the first generation ppc macs at apple in - i'm pretty sure -- 92 20:02:58 and there's no way to run an emulated one because all emulators only support MacOS 20:03:19 gozoner [~ebg@ip68-6-68-92.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:25 well, ok, they had Culture, so no excuse for botching it that badly 20:06:18 -!- Landr [~vser@78-22-154-231.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:08:15 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslao226.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:09:12 Gee, I'm glad the finest minds of Lispdom are arguing about what would be a good mascot for Lisp. 20:09:41 the green alien isn't good enough? 20:09:50 clearly all the important problems have been solved 20:12:03 gigamonkey: ? 20:12:17 p_l|backup: you don't read pro@? 20:12:45 judging by s/n, not reading pro would be quite a good idea 20:12:57 *Krystof* unsubscribes from the latest same-old talking shop 20:13:04 stassats`: I heard about it few times, but got the feeling it devolved into a circlejerk 20:13:13 -!- Pepe_ [~ppjet@bouah.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:13:27 no, it devolved into c.l.l 20:13:39 stassats`: ... isn't that the same these days? 20:13:40 only the finest trolls allowed. 20:14:36 is it publically readable? 20:14:44 <|nix|> mascot? how about Sylvester the Putty Tat 20:14:46 alright, let's not allow pro@ reduce s/n here too 20:15:52 <|nix|> or some other character with a lisp 20:17:11 good god, it didn't occur to me that was on pro@... tell them to take it to #lisp at a minimum 20:17:44 err... no, scratch that 20:17:48 RaceCondition [~erik@82.131.60.32.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 20:19:23 Kruppe [~user@134.117.27.137] has joined #lisp 20:19:31 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:20:35 gigamonkey: say, would you be interested in some extensions to monkeylib that cover little-endian and signed integers? 20:21:01 gigamonkey: binary-data, that is 20:21:33 I wrote some, and it would be nice if I could push it back upstream for others to use 20:21:53 (And also for myself to use, if I'm quicklisping on another machine 20:22:16 Too used to paredit, didn't close the parens :p 20:22:29 vokoda` [~user@host109-152-179-94.range109-152.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:24:36 deja vu 20:24:43 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-132-144.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:24:50 -!- vokoda [~user@unaffiliated/vokoda] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:26:14 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-78-193.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:26:33 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-78-193.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:27:18 -!- vokoda` [~user@host109-152-179-94.range109-152.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:32:07 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-229-235.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:33:02 dang, you can't even do lexing on common lisp without a context free parser 20:34:18 gigamonkey: i thought you said this was simple! :P 20:34:54 adamvh: now you tell me... :) 20:35:37 slyrus: Sorry, I had my client idling and I was reading the backlog and saw you were asking. 20:35:49 slyrus: I could still send you the code, if you want it. 20:36:15 sure, but it would be good to get gigamonkey to unify yours and mine in a new binary-data release :) 20:36:17 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 20:36:28 that's what I was hoping for 20:37:06 Did you add anything on top of signed / little-endian? 20:37:21 Because I also have a "binary-vector" datatype 20:37:42 That I use to read arrays of data 20:37:48 jikanter [~a@66.146.192.42] has joined #lisp 20:39:52 -!- felideon [~felideon@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: b] 20:40:50 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-229-235.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:41:14 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-142-248.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:42:14 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.79.248.63] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:43:02 felideon [~felideon@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:25 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.66.206.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:45:01 oconnore: what's giving you trouble. 20:45:08 I'm assuming you're not worried about reader macros. 20:45:13 ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 20:45:15 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-66-206-178.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:16 (Which obviously requires all of Lisp.) 20:45:17 oh, yeah, that's it. 20:45:34 well, i at least want to handle #| #| |# |# #(1 2 3) etc. 20:45:52 oconnore: why do you actually want to do this? 20:46:12 perhaps beach's project's portable reader would be of use. 20:46:57 well, i released an indentation library a while ago for Vim, and I recently realized that my understanding of common lisp at the time was not sufficient. so it has many bugs. 20:47:32 emacs's works pretty much okay 20:47:43 it's heuris-tastic 20:47:45 yes 20:47:47 i have to write it in python, because vim has no [portable] common lisp integration. otherwise i would love to use existing tools. 20:47:52 but it works pretty much okay 20:48:31 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 20:48:35 you can probably port the emacs heuristics to python 20:48:42 well, once i'm done, it will be on the same level as climacs as far as syntax awareness goes :) 20:49:24 http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3214130370447363@naggum.net.html is one of the pages with the most google hits in the archive. 20:50:00 Xach: yep, i found that in google. I realize that you can 20:50:13 't be perfect without a link to the running lisp 20:50:30 also, thanks for uploading all of his posts! 20:50:59 Google Groups was supposed to get better, but for my purposes (looking at older threads) it got a lot worse. 20:51:01 however, i think that read table extensions are discouraged enough that you can do useful things regardless. 20:51:11 I can't imagine how a BNF for Lisp would even look like 20:51:26 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 20:51:31 oconnore: I think with quicklisp, named-readtables might see more adoption. I have less fear of readtables now than in the past. 20:51:31 s/how/what/ 20:53:02 Xach: true, but if something gets really popular, I can release grammar extensions 20:53:47 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-66-206-178.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:53:47 and there would have to be some sort of a solution anyways, because even Emacs w/slime can't handle arbitrary read tables as far as syntax highlighting and indentation go 20:54:50 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-66-206-178.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:00 i imagine that we could see clojure style hash tables with {}, or arrays with [], but other than that the syntax must stay relatively sane. 20:58:38 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-103-152.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:59:23 seems like a waste of time. 21:01:08 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:01:23 adamvh: I have a few things. I have an "array" type, that sounds like you're binary-vector. I have unsigned-integer* that has a special variable flag for the endianness and u2*, u4* friends, a few other things... 21:01:37 I'm on my second gigamonkey parser now -- TIFF images. the first was iso-media (MP4) files. 21:02:11 Xach: but we have to get tcr to accept my named-readtables patch so it doesn't clobber slime 21:02:20 slyrus: I've got s1, s2, s4, s8 as well 21:02:41 slyrus: curse his life-consuming startup! 21:02:41 sykopomp: I'm a fan of the clojure style literals. terser code can be a good thing. 21:02:51 ah, what's that? 21:03:01 signed, with a keyword argument for endian-ness 21:03:08 slyrus: lukego's 21:03:29 ah, ok 21:03:37 slyrus: I'm a fan of saving syntax for when it matters. I much prefer (mkhash :a 1 :b 2) to {:a 1 :b 2}. The former doesn't need fancy readtable syntax, and can be applied to any plist, as a first-class object. 21:04:12 the latter saves you a couple of characters, uglifies your code, cannot be applied, and is completely unscalable: it's just a big fat special case. 21:04:20 I also not only don't see anything wrong with mkhash but actually prefer it 21:04:20 and big fat special cases smell. 21:04:36 mkhash is just more readable 21:04:56 maybe I'm just not a big fan of literals. 21:04:58 not just that, but you can change the data structure by changing the function. 21:05:00 *derrida* also 21:05:07 hell, just use (quote foo) instead of 'foo while you're at it 21:05:18 some do! 21:05:22 slyrus: it's arguable 21:05:23 slyrus: what stassats`said. 21:05:33 -!- cheez [~Adium@206-248-177-146.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:05:42 I like hash-table sugar. 21:05:42 also, quote can't be a function. 21:05:50 so the situation is different. 21:06:16 named-readtables enables us all to live in peace and harmony :) 21:06:18 Of course, I first learned about hash tables from perl, so this is all very nostalgia-filled for me 21:06:33 slyrus: was going to say the same less eloquently :P 21:06:45 (yes, my memories of perl are mostly pleasant) 21:07:02 slyrus: I'm a newbie so I'll ask: do named-readtables allow you to use {} for hashes while at the same time some other programmer can use mkhash and use {} for something else? is that what it is? 21:07:33 rien_: basically 21:07:39 there's an (in-readtable ...) form that is analogous to (in-package ...) 21:07:57 well then good thing those exist indeed :) 21:08:05 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-180-240.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:05 I'd be perfectly happy just having (, ), and ; as reader macros. :) 21:08:07 prior to this, it was very difficult to make sure you had the right readtable setup when compiling your code 21:08:22 (comment ...) 21:08:56 (string #\a #\b #\s #\o #\l #\u #\t #\l #\y #\.) 21:09:00 slyrus: Does named-readtables also allow you to #myreadtable:{ or something analagous? 21:09:09 wow, that's some vodka-influenced spelling. 21:09:11 Xach: point. :( 21:09:11 and you can get (coerce (quote (#\a #\b #\c)) (quote string)) 21:09:38 but my point actually works! 21:09:39 adamvh: I thought about adding something like that and thought better of it :) 21:09:47 *-dispatch-macro-character? 21:10:15 slyrus: It does seem like it makes reader macros a little pointless, huh 21:10:22 adamvh: you'd have to be (in-readtable 'meta-readtable) or some such... 21:10:25 yeah 21:10:30 Xach: (string (quote |absolutly.|))? 21:10:31 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-132-144.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 21:10:48 sykopomp: you don't have | 21:11:03 but | isn't a macro character 21:11:09 adamvh: I thought | was part of symbol reader syntax, not a readmacro. 21:11:15 Ah, I was unaware 21:11:15 so my bad :( 21:11:25 You are probably correct. 21:11:50 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:11:51 I'm not sure how to find the answer in CLHS. 21:11:57 while we're at it, we should restrict symbols to A-Z0-9- 21:12:17 stassats`: why? we freed up all those nice, useful characters! 21:12:26 no lambda? 21:12:34 (defun sykopomp's-function () ...) 21:12:40 sykopomp: some terminals don't have those fancy symbols! 21:13:04 clhs 2.1.4 21:13:04 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_ad.htm 21:13:30 rme [~rme@pool-70-104-117-158.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:13:46 darn! 21:14:00 I'll have to surrender and accept " 21:14:21 well, who needs strings, anyway? 21:14:46 test data! :( 21:14:52 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 21:15:59 emoon [~emoon@212-107-139-12.customers.ownit.se] has joined #lisp 21:16:11 use vectors of unsigned bytes! 21:16:22 just use bignums 21:17:06 bignums and lists, ultimate simplicity 21:17:22 (while still being practical) 21:18:48 hi, I want to fill a hash map with the values r0 - r31 and do it like this (loop for i from 0 to 31 collecting (setf (gethash (read-from-string (format nil "r~d" i)) hash) t)) but the values that ends up inside the hash map is |r0| |r1| etc.. Anyone knows what I'm doing wrong here or what I have missed? 21:19:23 why do you want to do that? 21:19:44 emoon: leaving asside stassats` question, use R instead of r 21:19:53 And probably INTERN instead of READ-FROM-STRING 21:20:11 (The latter just on general principles.) 21:21:03 first, why are you using a hash for contiguous number? 21:21:42 leifw [~leif@ool-18bac6ad.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:44 gigamonkey: works, thanks. 21:21:58 stassats`: its for an assembler where your registers are r0 - r31 21:22:05 but they can also have other names 21:22:07 emoon: stassats has an excellent point. 21:22:32 so i figured using a hash is a great name to make sure its a valid input 21:22:53 -!- superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.148] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:22:54 so if you use r34 (invalid) the hash check will return nil 21:23:11 or if you write rr21 (invalid) it will fail as well 21:23:26 you could use an array. 21:23:58 prxq: sure, but there are aliases for the names also, like r0 is also called zero 21:24:08 you are allowed to use both 21:24:15 emoon: but a hash isn't going to help you there. 21:24:27 You'll need to translate 'zero' to 'r0' before you look up in the hash. 21:24:56 gigamonkey: well, if the object behind the hash is the same, i.e (gethash r0 tab) == (gethash zero tab) 21:25:05 then that might work 21:25:17 *prxq* undermining gigamonkey's authority here 21:25:20 :-) 21:26:10 (aref register-array (gethash symbol table)) 21:26:26 -!- sellout [~Adium@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:26:58 prxq: good point. 21:27:50 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 21:27:51 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 21:27:51 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 21:28:19 Pepe_ [~ppjet@bouah.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:32 s0ber_ [~s0ber@111-240-165-153.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:49 prxq, gigamonkey: yeah, first i just wanted to verify that you had a valid name at all 21:29:12 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@96.246.167.18] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:30:10 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-167-72.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:30:11 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:30:17 emoon: your question is rather good, because (read-from-string "r1") gives R1 here. I smell allegro... 21:30:18 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 21:31:01 I mean, R1 instead of |r1| 21:32:35 prxq: interesting point. But shouldn't "modern mode" print the lowercase symbol without bars? 21:32:40 *gigamonkey* is confused. 21:32:50 potential numbers? 21:33:33 i don't know allegro at all, just know from hearsay that that it has odd case rules by defau;t 21:34:09 gigamonkey: it should, I think 21:34:30 modern mode prints r1 without bars for me. 21:34:55 emoon: which implementation are you using? 21:35:01 I'm using SBCL under Win32 21:35:13 1.0.37 or so 21:35:28 what does (read-from-string "r1") return? 21:36:14 R1 21:36:14 2 21:36:36 ^flying-high^ [~user@205.244.151.65] has joined #lisp 21:36:57 <^flying-high^> Aloha! Is there a decent way of implementing linked lists in lisp? 21:37:04 are you sure you're using read-from-string in your code? 21:37:08 ^flying-high^: are you kidding? 21:37:10 bah, pay for ISO standard docs??? 21:37:16 <^flying-high^> I mean --something-like-a-pointer--> 21:37:30 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:37:33 ^flying-high^: singly-linked lists built from conses are pretty fundamental in Lisp. 21:37:37 ^flying-high^: what lisp uses are linked 21:37:48 <^flying-high^> Yeah, but I need the functionality of adding/removing nodes dynamically 21:37:58 slyrus: You should see the prices in the telecom world. Trying to write software is a pain. 21:38:00 <^flying-high^> As in Taking out links and putting them somewhere else entirely 21:38:06 (defstruct linked-list current-value next-value) 21:38:10 You can..... 21:38:19 <^flying-high^> stassats, that works like a pointer though? 21:38:39 how does a pointer work? 21:38:40 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 21:38:43 clhs sequences 21:38:43 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for sequences. 21:38:44 emoon: your code fills a table with R1 etc. here. 21:38:56 sbcl 1.0.4something 21:39:01 clhs 17.3 21:39:01 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for 17.3. 21:39:08 <^flying-high^> As in if I set the value of whatever is at 'next-value' to 0, will *all* objects pointing to that one see the change? 21:39:21 prxq: really weird.. with R~d it works but with r~d it gets |..| 21:39:31 <^flying-high^> Say, I have 3 objects referencing 'a', and I set a to 0. Will all 3 immediately notice? 21:39:40 no 21:39:50 <^flying-high^> How would I implement that, then? 21:39:56 depends on what you mean with 'a' 21:39:57 minion: please tell ^flying-high^ about PCL 21:39:58 ^flying-high^: have a look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 21:40:00 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 21:40:23 <^flying-high^> er, I don't wanna read a whole book. I just needed some help with 'pointers' in lisp 21:40:52 ^flying-high^: Read just the part about pointers in Lisp. 21:40:53 too bad 21:41:06 ^flying-high^: that book is very well laid out and online...you don't have to read all of it, but you should read some of it just to avoid wasting your own time 21:41:17 oh, and ours. 21:41:30 ^flying-high^: perhaps http://gigamonkeys.com/book/they-called-it-lisp-for-a-reason-list-processing.html 21:42:00 ^flying-high^: this might also be good http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/beyond-lists-other-uses-for-cons-cells.html 21:42:31 ^flying-high^: are doing a homework? 21:42:48 <^flying-high^> Nah, I'm trying to implement a virtual 'breadboard' (digital electronics practicing device) in lisp. 21:42:56 <^flying-high^> So that I can practice at home without buying one. 21:43:53 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 21:43:56 -!- mk2 [~user@159.92.65.64] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:43:59 -!- pers [~user@100.sub-75-196-185.myvzw.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:44:04 pers [~user@100.sub-75-196-185.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 21:45:34 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-38-142-34.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:43 well, you'd rather read the whole book then 21:45:43 ^flying-high^: If you want to write programs in Lisp, that book is a really nice resource. This channel is not a good resource for generic questions easily answered by studying some introductory material. 21:45:56 unless you want to bombard us with questions 21:46:18 <^flying-high^> I was only asking one question..I'm reading it now. 21:46:26 prxq: odd stuff, but now it works anyway. Thanks for the help :) 21:46:38 i've always wondered what the parenthesis are for, but I've always been afraid to ask :( 21:46:39 emoon: what was the trick? 21:46:58 k9quaint: they keep symbols from escaping 21:46:58 prxq: if I use R (instead of r) in format it works 21:47:00 k9quaint: they are there to keep morons away 21:47:08 works okish :-) 21:47:16 <^flying-high^> but stassats, a cons cell still doesn't quite do what I'd want. 21:47:24 -!- hans_ [~hans@host197-58-dynamic.58-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:47:31 prxq: I must have evolved an immunity to them :P 21:47:32 ^flying-high^: well, you better keep on reading then 21:47:55 <^flying-high^> see this test case: (setf a 1) (setf b (cons 1 a)), b = (1 1), if I set a to 2, b still equals (1 . 1) 21:48:01 k9quaint: good chance you pass the test 21:48:03 Are all the format directives in the hyperspec? I can't seem to find them. 21:48:17 Kruppe: every one of them 21:48:32 stassats`: I must just be looking in the wrong place then 21:48:33 which can't you find? 21:48:47 Kruppe: C-c C-d ~ might come in handy 21:48:56 ^flying-high^: Traditionally, #lisp is more likely to tell you to RTFM than, say, #python. Conversely the harder more obscure questions get answered. 21:49:12 Kruppe: digits, :, @, v, #, and some other things are arguments to the directive, not the directive itself. 21:49:16 stassats`: trying to figure out what ~:; does and its arguments 21:49:21 there's a scary page, wait... 21:49:28 clhs ~[ 21:49:28 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cgb.htm 21:49:30 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_c.htm ;; scroll down to enter hades 21:49:51 clhs ~; 21:49:51 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cia.htm 21:49:57 ^flying-high^: There no such concept as a first class binding or storage place. Store the value in a cons cell (or a specially crafted object using defstruct) as a level of indirection 21:50:09 Kruppe: see above 21:50:21 sellout [~Adium@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 21:50:41 <^flying-high^> but it's not the /value/ that I need to store, it's the /reference/ 21:50:49 ^flying-high^: You might want to take a look at symbol-macrolet... perhaps. 21:51:04 stassats`: prxq: thanks, I think I can figure it out from here :) 21:51:06 <^flying-high^> I could try storing a quoted symbol and using symbol-value, that works when I test it but it might be tedius. 21:51:09 jtza8: to become more confused? 21:51:15 Yep 21:51:23 Basically. 21:51:35 ^flying-high^: A non-immediate object will essentially evaluate to a pointer in machine-terms 21:52:20 I.e. (let ((a (cons 1 2))) ) will make the compiler store a pointer to a cons cell to whatever storage place it choose for the bining a (register or stack) 21:52:59 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:53:26 -!- jajcloz [~jaj@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jajcloz] 21:53:36 You question is a FAQ. I'm not sure there's a canonical place with a good summary, though. It's how Lisp, or most other dynamically typed languages work. 21:54:55 <^flying-high^> Huh, so tcr1 a (cons ) returns a pointer? I notice I can set a to cons 1 2 and then b to a, b does change when I change a directly. 21:56:00 (defparameter *a* (cons 1 2)) (setf (car *a*) 42) *a* 21:56:18 => (42 . 2) 21:56:33 xcv [~xcv@dsl-225-28.hive.is] has joined #lisp 21:56:53 (defparameter *b* (cons :b *a*)) *b* => (:B . (42 . 2)) 21:57:04 (setf (cdr *a*) 23) 21:57:15 *b* => (:b . (42 . 23)) 21:57:18 ^flying-high^: you might want to rethink your need for passing a reference 21:57:24 francogrex [~user@109.130.214.11] has joined #lisp 21:57:40 <^flying-high^> dlowe, what do you mean rethink my need for passing a reference? There's no other way to do it really. 21:57:43 ^flying-high^: you really need to read a book 21:57:51 it can be done, but you're going to be fighting the language the whole way 21:58:00 ^flying-high^: Notice how tcr1 is answering your question ... by evaluating expressions at the Lisp prompt. You can do this yourself. 21:58:00 and man it can fight back 21:58:04 ^flying-high^: I find that very hard to believe 21:58:52 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:59:00 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has left #lisp 21:59:00 ^flying-high^: CL functions can return multiple values. I suggest you use that if you're dealing with non-composite values. 21:59:01 <^flying-high^> dlowe, see for yourself. I plan to implement something where multiple objects reference 1 or more other objects, and all update at the same time if any one of those objects change. I don't see how that can be done without references. 21:59:20 by streams conceivable 21:59:28 ^flying-high^: if you're using objects, then you're already passing them around by reference 21:59:37 ^flying-high^: take a look at the replies from tcr1 22:00:14 <^flying-high^> Yeah I noticed, his third example is exactly what I wanted. 22:00:29 <^flying-high^> So I'm just here thinking about how to encapsulate that now. No more questions actually. 22:00:39 *dlowe* shrugs. don't say you weren't warned. 22:00:42 ^flying-high^: Better define a new type via DEFSTRUCT 22:01:02 Can the lisp gods recommend a good lexical analyzer generator for Common Lisp? I'm writing a toy compiler for a uni course, learning CL along the way. 22:01:40 I've found several on google, but I can't say which are mature and well tested 22:01:45 <^flying-high^> Yeah tcr1, I was thinking (defstruct node (next)) and I can set the "next" to (cons ) 22:02:30 ^flying-high^: You've just re-invented the list? 22:02:37 ^flying-high^: really not clear what the struct is adding in that situation. 22:02:48 if you just want a linked list, cons cells are all you ned. 22:02:49 need 22:03:01 xcv: Just use a sexp based input language and use READ? 22:03:14 And if you want multiple "pointers" associated with a single value, you'll probably want to define your own objecs (or structs, if you must.) 22:03:40 minion: cl-yacc? 22:03:41 cl-yacc: CL-Yacc is a LALR(1) parser generator for Common Lisp, somewhat like Zebu or LALR.cl. http://www.cliki.net/cl-yacc 22:04:16 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756e3c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:04:22 I'd rather go with PEGs 22:04:28 Good morning everyone! 22:04:33 hi beach 22:04:34 or parse combinators 22:04:53 yeah, since I get to choose the language I guess I could just implement a subset of scheme and use READ like tcr1 recommends 22:04:55 if you're writing a toy compiler you'd better check how it's properly done in PAIP by Peter Norvig 22:05:01 I'm going to write the parser by hand 22:05:04 ok 22:05:09 I'm reading the dragon book 22:05:25 not good enough for that 22:05:43 gigamonkey wrote a simple macro-based compiler in a c.l.l posting 22:05:50 some day, I'll open the dragon book again and not fall asleep within 15 minutes. 22:05:57 :P 22:06:04 sykopomp: needs more dragons? 22:06:11 stassats`: needs less parsing. 22:06:21 I'm not sure it it can really count as "compiler" but it's cute anyway for its simplicity 22:06:34 adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:52 tcr1: you mean that one when I was arguing with that obnoxious Python guy? 22:07:10 the one going down to a stack-based machine bytecode a la jvm 22:07:11 hey beach 22:07:37 I'd like a link to that! 22:07:44 that sounds fun. 22:08:35 thanks for the answers, guys 22:08:57 sykopomp: me too! I have no recollection. 22:09:00 sykopomp: (I'm not trying to track it down but you should have enough keywords to do it yourself) 22:10:57 jtza8_ [~jtza8@41.56.54.100] has joined #lisp 22:11:24 <^flying-high^> Oh..actually..apparently structs pass-by-value by default anyway. 22:11:45 <^flying-high^> So this whole thing was just me not testing to see if it would work. 22:11:57 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 22:12:02 they do? 22:12:34 ^flying-high^: that sounds wrong. 22:13:02 For commonly used values of "pass-by-value" 22:13:29 -!- sugarshark [~ole@p4FDA8278.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:13:57 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.5.154] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:13:58 <^flying-high^> but I tried (defstruct node (next)) and I made 3 instances, a b and c. I set a.next to b, and b.next to c, and then c.next to T. When I checked the value of A, it included B, which included a T. 22:14:00 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:14:15 <^flying-high^> .next and so on is just to make it less to type. 22:14:44 *beach* is reminded by the 1970s when seeing "next" fields in structures. 22:15:12 <^flying-high^> Anyway it works for what I want it to do. 22:15:27 ^flying-high^: have you tried (setf (cons a nil) (cons b nil)) ? 22:15:30 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:56 i mean (setf (cdr (cons a nil)) (cons b nil))) 22:16:11 <^flying-high^> Which is to set the 2nd part of a into b? 22:16:39 no, the second part of the cons cell to the other cons cell. YOU NEED TO READ A BOOK!!! 22:16:54 <^flying-high^> but that's exactly what I said 22:17:03 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A6D9E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:17:07 like "a gentle introduction to symbolic computation" 22:17:09 <^flying-high^> "set the 2nd part of a(cons cell) into (to become) b" 22:17:37 the car of the cons cell points to a. 22:17:42 in my ecample. 22:17:49 s/c/x 22:18:06 s/c/x/ 22:19:11 or so 22:19:22 <^flying-high^> oh..ok maybe I'll read the book. It would be a list with a as the first and b as the second..where both are references 22:19:28 gigamonkey: why aren't :dispatch forms lambdas? 22:19:36 ^flying-high^: no. 22:20:04 gigamonkey: oh, I guess having the slots bound is good enough 22:20:10 ^flying-high^: Well, you're close, just keep on reading the book, and trying out stuff. 22:20:28 slyrus: glad you figured that out. (I have no idea off the top of my head.) 22:21:27 Probably just trying to keep things syntactially (re|con)strained. 22:22:04 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:22:16 xcv, sykopomp, gigamonkey: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/2108939e399c5c4e 22:22:39 great! I couldn't find it. :) 22:22:40 thanks 22:22:52 seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:53 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:23:57 tcr1: thanks. I still have no recollection of writing that. 22:24:29 you should, it's rather cute! 22:25:27 ^flying-high^: If variable A would point to a cons cell, you could set B to point to the same cons cell. If you would then set the car or cdr of that cons cell, the change will be visible in both A and B, as they point to the same cons cell. However, if A is set to :blah then A is bound to :blah rather than pointing to it. 22:26:35 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:26:44 ^flying-high^: So in (cons 'x (cons 'y nil)) x and y aren't referenced. 22:27:01 Man, that was some epic procrastination. 22:27:08 <^flying-high^> What's the difference between a cons cell and a list? 22:27:16 ^flying-high^: there is no list. 22:27:25 ^flying-high^: exactly. 22:27:33 The Cons cell is the List. 22:27:34 You really need to go read that chapter I gave you the url to before. 22:27:41 <^flying-high^> Lists are supposed to be made up of cons cells, but what exactly is a cons cell then? 22:27:52 ^flying-high^: i'll answer 22:28:02 an object with two pointers. 22:28:11 ^flying-high^: (defstruct cons car cdr) 22:28:27 *prxq* sighs 22:28:35 good night 22:28:39 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75c444.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:28:42 ^flying-high^: In C it would be struct cons_cell {void* car, cons_cell* next}; 22:28:57 adamvh: void* next 22:29:07 <^flying-high^> and 'cdr' represents the 'next, but all of them? 22:29:11 sykopomp: good point 22:29:39 ^flying-high^: cdr represents the 'other' pointer. 22:29:44 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:29:57 a cons cell is really just an object with two pointers. (cons 1 2) is perfectly legal. 22:30:03 There Is No List 22:30:13 The list is a lie. 22:30:35 the list is a lie you tell yourself (: 22:31:00 antifuchs: and the printer lies too 22:31:02 ^flying-high^: it's actually more like this: (defstruct list) (defstruct (nil (:include list symbol)))) (defstruct (cons (:include list)) car cdr) 22:31:10 <^flying-high^> Okay. So (out of cons cells) what would (list a b c) look like? (a (b (c nil))) ? 22:31:15 There should be a printer variable *print-no-lists* 22:31:22 Which when T prints lists in dotted cons form 22:31:28 gigamonkey: the printer just doesn't contradict you (-: 22:31:31 ^flying-high^: (cons a (cons b (cons c nil))) 22:31:49 (a . (b . (c . nil))) 22:32:17 the mini compiler is very nice indeed and educative. why didn't it enter as a chapter example for PCL? 22:32:36 <^flying-high^> and what do those dots represent really? "end of element" ? 22:32:45 francogrex: Sssshh! He is saving it for the next CL book! 22:32:51 ^flying-high^: (car . cdr) 22:32:56 ^flying-high^: cons cells! 22:33:16 francogrex: Dunno. As I say, I have no recollection of writing it. I probably toyed with the idea of including it but then decided it wasn't really all that practical. 22:33:18 <^flying-high^> Is the dot really necessary though? The () parens and ' ' spaces make it obvious enough. 22:33:21 ^flying-high^: (1 (2 3) 4 5) Is a list 22:33:35 ^flying-high^: It's just notation 22:33:44 ^flying-high^: For crying out loud, man. Go read something about this stuff. 22:33:59 minion: PLEASE tell ^flying-high^ about gentle 22:34:00 ^flying-high^: please look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 22:34:05 hmmm. another common lisp on the JVM. he "complains" about only seeing releases for ABCL every few months. wonder what he's going to do himself. 22:34:11 ^flying-high^: you've got a reading list now. Go read! 22:34:21 ehu: lol 22:34:21 ehu: hm? 22:34:26 <^flying-high^> Yay, okay. I've got it now anyway. 22:34:38 sure you do. 22:34:39 ehu: I'd understand if it was targeting some very specific functionality not covered by ABCL 22:35:00 such as compiling to .class files? :D 22:35:02 tcr1: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/b1da0dc813573e6c# 22:35:12 Oh, man, that post was from when I was still @javamonkey.com 22:35:15 ^flying-high^: Please read... or try out #python. 22:35:17 p_l|backup: it seems to want to be a generic CL. 22:35:33 -!- Kruppe [~user@134.117.27.137] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:35:38 ehu: ... 22:35:41 gigamonkey: which one? 22:35:56 gigamonkey: this one is from today. 22:36:44 p_l|backup: actually, I've been working on the ABCL-web project the last few weeks 22:36:47 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 22:36:53 ehu: maybe he's referring to the time before you took over? 22:36:56 p_l|backup: so, that's not even going to be ABCL's weekness anymore. 22:36:59 ehu: no, some old post of mine tcr1 dug up. 22:37:04 ah. 22:37:15 *jtza8_* has been enlightened socially by this experience. 22:37:26 tcr1: could be. but before I took over the interval between releases was more like ... years. 22:37:47 anyway, I'm not offended. I think it's too bad we're spreading resources this thin. 22:38:30 and I'm really seriously interested to see how many releases he'll do a year. 22:38:45 6 is a lot of work, the way we do it. 22:38:56 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:39:10 ehu: 6/year seems like a pretty reasonable release rate, imo. 22:39:13 Hmmm. Reading the rest of that old thread I see that I was considering putting it in the book. And I toyed with the idea of targeting MIX or MMIX. I'm editing an article for Code Quarterly about MIX; maybe I'll write this up as a companion piece for that issue of CQ. 22:39:55 ehu: In open source projects? 22:40:04 -!- jeekl [~crz@unaffiliated/jeekl] has quit [Quit: jeekl] 22:40:20 jeekl [~crz@li272-11.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 22:40:20 -!- jeekl [~crz@li272-11.members.linode.com] has quit [Changing host] 22:40:20 jeekl [~crz@unaffiliated/jeekl] has joined #lisp 22:40:21 jtza8_: in open source, yes. 22:40:28 jtza8_: in ABCL, to be exact. 22:40:46 A new implementation on the JVM? 22:40:54 Grazl: yup. 22:41:03 that's what he says (he's the author) 22:41:22 "Longino" 22:42:00 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:42:45 Draggor [~Draggor@75-150-231-161-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:59 a book i'm reading contains this function: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/331871/ which is supposed to "create a completely new atom in a systematic manner" 22:43:02 ehu: Releases can be in rather small increments. 22:43:11 but when i run it i get this error: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/331873/ 22:43:14 gigamonkey: ok 22:43:29 jtza8_: right. 2 months of work *is* a small increment. 22:43:45 jtza8_: it still needs to work with all software it used to work with. 22:43:49 Let's see if I can get a repl... 22:43:51 so, that needs testing. 22:44:12 (which takes (lots of) time) 22:45:37 -!- ravic is now known as chemuduguntar 22:45:40 someone posted to reddit:http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/fenmk/longino_common_lisp_a_clbased_dynamic_programming/ 22:46:28 pattern: Did you read the documentation for gensym? 22:47:06 ehu: Come to think of it, it does sound like a lot of work... but it should be do-able, I guess. 22:47:11 pattern: What did it say about the type of the optional argument? And what did you pass it? Are they compatible? 22:47:28 beach: i was just following what was in the book 22:47:28 jtza8_: what is a lot of work? 22:47:33 that's what it told me to pass 22:47:34 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@82.131.60.32.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:47:35 jtza8_: implementing on the JVM? 22:47:42 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 22:47:45 jtza8_: 2 projects already did that. 22:47:49 -!- ^flying-high^ [~user@205.244.151.65] has left #lisp 22:47:53 RaceCondition [~erik@82.131.60.32.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 22:47:56 jtza8_: ABCL and CL4Java 22:47:56 pattern: The book said you could use a symbol as the root? 22:48:11 pattern: I mean the stem. 22:48:15 yep 22:48:18 It comes without repl. 22:48:22 ehu: I mean ABCL releases. 22:48:22 RaceCondition_ [~erik@82.131.60.32.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 22:48:24 pattern: What book is that? 22:48:26 -!- csamuelson [~csamuelso@173-14-110-121-nashville.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:48:29 ah. 22:48:40 beach: Essential Lisp by Anderson, Corbett, and Reiser 22:48:44 heh. yea. so, I'm not able to make more than 6. 22:48:53 I've considered it, but it's not worth it. 22:49:04 pattern: I suggest you use a different book. 22:49:12 thanks 22:49:24 pattern: It seems confused in other ways as well, using "atom" to mean "symbol". 22:49:42 well that's historical 22:49:56 ehu: What is a release worth if it isn't solid anyway? :) 22:50:03 like.. do-symbols was once called mapatoms :-) 22:50:09 pattern: And there is no reason to use prog1 in that example. 22:50:16 -!- RaceCondition_ [~erik@82.131.60.32.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:50:18 Anyhow... good night all. 22:50:20 -!- jtza8_ [~jtza8@41.56.54.100] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:50:27 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.214.128] has joined #lisp 22:50:38 RaceCondition_ [~erik@82.131.60.32.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 22:51:20 pattern: Another tipoff: it write LISP instead of Lisp. 22:51:38 looking at the copyright, i see it was published in 1987 22:51:58 so maybe that's why 22:51:59 pattern: That predates the CL standard by a bit. 22:52:08 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@82.131.60.32.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:52:08 it does talk about common lisp, though 22:52:09 -!- RaceCondition_ is now known as RaceCondition 22:52:26 pattern: CL existed, but not the final standard. 22:52:31 CL predates ANSI CL 22:52:40 ah 22:52:50 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:53:56 katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:53:56 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 22:53:56 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 22:54:12 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.214.11] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:54:32 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 22:54:33 hey kpreid! what are you up to these days? 22:54:46 whole lotta college, with occasional javascript 22:55:01 pattern: Even so, you should start a habit of looking up the functions in the HyperSpec to see what type of arguments they take. 22:55:12 I haven't been around lately because #lisp got pruned off my 'pay attention' irc channels 22:55:37 but I'm getting back into the project which I mainly use CL for, so therefore CL and #lisp 22:55:53 the E thing? 22:55:57 yup 22:55:58 (and let me just repeat that quicklisp is considerably shinier than asdf-install) 22:56:03 beach: yeah.. i kind of figured from the error message that it wanted an argument of the type listed there... but i just wondered why the book would steer me so wrong 22:56:05 and now i know 22:56:26 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:56:36 kpreid: indeed 22:57:05 I've actually been doing lots of shell, linux foo and C over the past weeks 22:57:32 pattern: It would save some time for Lisp participants if you did the initial work, say "The book named x recommends y, however, the CLHS says gensym takes only z. Any idea why?" 22:58:02 pattern: Instead of "a book I read does x, but it doesnt work" 22:58:02 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:05:49 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 23:06:22 beach: sorry about that.. 23:06:44 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:06:54 pattern: No need to be sorry. I am just giving you hints for the future. 23:07:04 adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:09:24 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:56 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:13:18 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 23:14:33 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-180-240.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 23:15:55 Mmm, this longino thing seems to work, although quite slowly. 23:17:14 ,tlf 23:18:55 HG` [~HG@xdslao226.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 23:19:13 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@84.119.84.159] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:20:04 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 23:20:36 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 23:21:14 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:21:21 cbbrowne: Are you the owner of cbbrowne.com? 23:27:30 astoon [~astoon@109.188.230.89] has joined #lisp 23:27:43 HadiM [~HadiM@tal33-3-82-233-82-27.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:46 hi 23:27:54 can someone can help me with some basic lisp code 23:27:54 Hello HadiM 23:28:01 ? 23:28:03 -!- astoon [~astoon@109.188.230.89] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:28:08 HadiM: Post it and you will find out. 23:28:19 minion: Tell HadiM about lisppaste! 23:28:20 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 23:28:27 i am very beginner and lisp is making me crazy, I just want ton configure my .emacs 23:28:29 lol 23:28:29 ty 23:28:37 HadiM: you probably want #emacs 23:28:46 it's very basic lisp code 23:28:49 We mostly talk about Common Lisp here. 23:28:52 HadiM: This channel is about Common Lisp, not Emacs Lisp. 23:29:35 kulakowski [~user@ip68-0-214-153.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:07 Used to be of cbbrowne.com. Let it expire. 23:30:10 Grazl_ [~Grazl@11.Red-79-150-124.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:14 -!- Grazl [~Grazl@11.Red-79-150-124.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 23:30:17 -!- Grazl_ is now known as Grazl 23:30:18 linuxdatabases.info iz home these days. 23:30:39 hadim pasted "basi lisp" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/119361 23:30:54 cbbrowne: Ah, OK. Thanks! 23:30:54 lol 23:30:55 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:30:58 amazing bot :-) 23:31:00 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:14 Probably apropos to look up el-get for sophisticated Emacs configuration approach. I've got a half-done new recipe right now... 23:31:45 I think my code is prety much the same in CL than Emacs Lisp no ? 23:31:47 HadiM: Ah, from the University of Bordeaux I take it? 23:31:50 and it don't work :-) 23:32:04 beach: yop, how do you know that ? 23:32:10 "cremi" 23:32:14 :-) 23:32:27 you too ? 23:32:35 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:32:45 HadiM: Sort of. I am Robert Strandh. 23:33:05 HadiM: But right now I am in Vietnam. 23:33:15 ok I am student at the bioinformatic master 23:33:17 *p_l|backup* for some inane reason expected a sudden cry of "oh shit, it's the professor" 23:33:34 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:33:44 HadiM: I see. Are you taking a course by Irene Durand? 23:33:51 nop 23:33:56 Hmm, OK. 23:34:05 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:34:13 argh... this is slow going, but, probably better than trying to write this stupid parser by hand... 23:34:27 go bioinformaticians! 23:34:35 :-) 23:34:40 beach: can you help me with my code? 23:34:48 how can I compare two string ? 23:35:13 HadiM: you might check out my cl-bio some time 23:35:22 it's not nearly finished though 23:35:30 HadiM: That should work, I think. 23:35:32 yep no problem 23:36:18 -!- ch077179 [~urs@adsl-89-217-147-190.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 23:36:34 I have a Symbol's function definition is void: color-theme-midnight 23:36:46 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:46 color-theme-midnight is a emacs lisp function 23:38:40 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:39:06 -!- pers [~user@100.sub-75-196-185.myvzw.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:39:15 hargettp [~hargettp@mobile-166-137-137-123.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 23:40:34 HadiM: I don't see any function named color-theme-midnight. What makes you think it should be one? 23:40:40 _danb_ [~user@124-171-12-242.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 23:41:15 I didn't paste all my code :-) 23:41:18 but it's good now 23:41:25 I did it from an other way 23:41:35 thank for your time ^^ 23:41:39 bye 23:41:59 -!- HadiM [~HadiM@tal33-3-82-233-82-27.fbx.proxad.net] has left #lisp 23:43:44 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:44:05 -!- oconnore [~eric@adsl-80-218-110.mcn.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:44:29 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 23:44:49 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 23:44:52 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@mobile-166-137-137-123.mycingular.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:44:54 <|nix|> is there a libarary which bring clojure like sugar into SBCL 23:44:56 astoon [~astoon@109.188.230.89] has joined #lisp 23:45:25 which sugar are you looking for? 23:45:27 hash-tables? 23:45:38 I don't remember any other ugar in Clojure 23:46:34 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-52-202.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:47:19 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Quit: I'll see you on the dark side of the moon] 23:47:24 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:47:27 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 23:47:28 <|nix|> basically to run programs in clojure in SBCL 23:47:32 sharps [~hazel@ip-118-90-82-239.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:48:46 |nix|: slyrus has expressed interest in such a thing. 23:48:52 Dunno if he's done anything about it. 23:49:13 complete source compatibility? I don't think it's possible since Clojure has lots of Java libs which you can't call from SBCL 23:49:19 thought about it a bit 23:49:25 yeah, forget about the interop for the moment 23:49:36 but a lisp-1 mode for SBCL would be pretty cool 23:49:39 |nix|: clojure's semantics are far enough away from common lisp that this would be a bit hard, I guess 23:49:51 especially when you get into the java foreign function interface 23:50:05 (although _8david's JVM could come in handy there) (-: 23:50:12 antifuchs: but (if you put aside the interop stuff) surely no harder than running clojure on the jvm 23:50:22 slyrus: I guess, yeah 23:50:34 hargettp [~hargettp@mobile-166-137-137-123.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 23:50:35 -!- jikanter [~a@66.146.192.42] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:50:38 slyrus: also, I think you could try to run clojure on the LichtblauMV (: 23:51:40 Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.99.177] has joined #lisp 23:51:44 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@mobile-166-137-137-123.mycingular.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:53:28 LichtblauMV? 23:54:27 p_l|backup: the JVM that runs on SBCL 23:54:28 "runs" 23:54:35 Mirtual Vachine. 23:54:37 adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:54:40 more like "moves forward at an implementation-defined speed" 23:55:44 <|nix|> antifuchs: clojure semantics? in which way. Is there some project attempting such a thing. I could contribute. 23:56:18 |nix|: that's not what I meant, sorry for the confusion (: 23:56:33 <|nix|> slyrus: if you are interested and if there is nobody taking a swing at this then maybe we can. 23:56:34 btw, any interesting project that extends parenscript? (also, whether it's parenscript or parenscript-classic) 23:56:44 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:56:47 I meant to say that you will probably end up writing an implementation of clojure in lisp, including a reader and compiler 23:57:16 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-173-125.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:57:19 you'll be very lucky if you can use parts from CL; my guess is there won't be many 23:57:31 Kruppe [~user@CPE00222d128ba2-CM00222d128b9e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:59:09 |nix|: sure, sounds good 23:59:14 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-173-125.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:59:31 antifuchs: yeah, but you can use SBCL's code generation infrastructure 23:59:52 MetalDust_Clouds [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:59:53 slyrus: that's right, just like _8david's JVM