00:04:53 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@201.102.114.207] has quit [Quit: ] 00:07:45 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-71-146-132-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:23 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 00:08:35 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:12:56 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.207.216] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 00:17:46 -!- manic12 [~andrew@99-100-67-123.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:18:32 _mindCrime [~chatzilla@nat/redhat/x-fcmpijxziuvgyjml] has joined #lisp 00:23:16 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7559b4.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:29:43 beach: Yeah, that was a typo on my part. :E 00:32:25 pattern [~pattern@unaffiliated/pattern] has joined #lisp 00:35:19 sykopomp: I seemed to have wandered into your sykosomatic project. Would this be text-based games as in, "> get ye flask," "> throw baby," etc? 00:35:31 If yeah, that sounds cool 00:36:30 I should've said, "a la Zork and HHG2G" >_< Not my best day mentally :/ 00:37:21 manic12 [~andrew@99-100-67-123.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:37:34 -!- _mindCrime is now known as mindCrime 00:37:38 egomosis [~egomosis@cpe-76-188-33-45.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:38:15 jesusabdullah: sykosomatic is the project that will never end. I started it years ago, and it's yielded a bunch of libraries, but it's pretty much vaporware. :) 00:38:18 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.3.207] has joined #lisp 00:38:48 -!- LiamH [~nobody@pool-141-156-216-46.res.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:39:15 Ah 00:39:18 wah wah wahhhh 00:40:35 but in an ideal world, it would be the best game ever! ;) 00:41:40 Totally! 00:42:02 I kinda want to write a text-based IF game for NaNoWriMo next November 00:42:22 Unfortunately, all the big "authoring systems" suck 00:42:38 Except maybe inform 6 00:42:39 :/ 00:43:21 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-218.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:58 jesusabdullah: So... you have ten and a half months to fix the situation? 00:44:04 Yeah, exactly! 00:44:14 nyef: good to see you around again! You were missed! :) 00:44:25 sykopomp: Thanks. It's good to be back (and back hacking). 00:44:35 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 00:44:37 Does CL allow for multi-line strings? Like, 00:44:42 "roses are red, 00:44:46 violets are blue" 00:44:46 -!- egomosis [~egomosis@cpe-76-188-33-45.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:44:47 ? 00:44:58 Because that would make such a thing easier I think 00:45:06 jesusabdullah: Do you want that to be in the same line when printed out? 00:45:09 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:45:14 or do you want CL to ignore the newline? 00:45:15 No 00:45:21 I'd like to keep the newline 00:45:34 it will,iirc 00:45:35 jesusabdullah: then you're done. The newline is there. 00:45:39 woot 00:45:55 If I didn't want it, I'm sure I could strip it out pretty easy :) 00:46:16 Could be a good way to learn more CL 00:46:20 I thought you were looking for something like FORMAT's ~ directive. :) 00:46:29 Naw, more like python's """ 00:46:32 which is handy when you want to split a long string into multiple lines in source code. 00:46:40 ooh 00:46:58 looking at format reminds me of how I used to feel about regexps 00:47:24 jesusabdullah: CL ignores newlines with default readtable 00:47:32 -!- kerx [~kerx@38.118.129.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:48:50 A 00:48:58 p_l|backup: but not in string literals 00:49:04 ^ 00:49:05 Ignores isn't quite true, it treats them as whitespace. 00:49:06 blegh 00:49:11 -!- ramus [~ramus@adsl-108-76-68-172.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:49:25 This is for reading from a stream? 00:50:24 This is for READing from a stream. 00:51:02 ramus [~ramus@adsl-99-23-150-108.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:51:03 (Not something you'd do in a user-facing stream for a deliverable application.) 00:51:34 gigamonkey: it ignores as in "doesn't do anything" 00:51:55 ... Can I interest you in the start of an infocom Z3 interpreter, btw? 00:52:10 p_l|backup: right, but it does something: it includes the newline in the string literal. 00:52:32 nyef: you sound suspiciously like a bridge salesman 00:52:40 hah :D 00:53:19 I'd probably find a Z3 compiler more useful ;) 00:53:29 idk nothin' 'bout the Z3 vm though 00:53:59 -!- s1gma_ [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:54:51 http://www.lisphacker.com/projects/pretzil/ if you're interested. 00:55:12 Hunh. It's almost five years old now. 00:57:56 k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:01:05 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-155-195-23.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:02:14 -!- sm` [s@78.157.15.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:02:47 sm` [s@78.157.15.219] has joined #lisp 01:03:16 jwbro [~jwbro@12.0.85.3] has joined #lisp 01:04:25 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.61.203.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 01:04:37 just went back to do a bit of perl coding after some days immersed in lisp and caught myself typing (while <>) instead of: while (<>) 01:05:56 Last time I went back to do a bit of perl coding I discovered that I had not only lost all of my perl-fu but also my copy of the camel book. 01:07:22 lisp is dangerous.. 01:08:20 lol 01:09:01 Admittedly, if I have to hack perl from scratch more than once every six to eight months then it's a weird year. 01:11:19 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-71-146-132-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:11:23 I find perl easier to remember after a long absence than python, oddly enough. 01:12:19 Sluggo [~user@c-75-64-77-87.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:25 *nyef* is knee deep in the lifetime analysis phase of a compiler named python. 01:13:44 For the dx-closure tail-call badness? 01:13:52 jikanter [~jikanter@c-67-163-43-154.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:14:04 Yup. 01:14:18 Cool, good luck 01:14:23 As of 11:11pm last night (21 hours ago) I have a test case. 01:14:44 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:14:51 Right now I've got a theory as to how to fix things, and am trying to line up the bits for a fix. 01:15:58 (Amusingly, my test case actually runs perfectly fine, as while there's a value cell getting trashed it /technically/ isn't live at that point... but the compiler doesn't know that. 01:16:43 It sounds quite difficult to write regression tests for this sort of thing 01:17:38 -!- redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:18:20 It took a couple of hours once I sat down to it. 01:18:51 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-218.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 01:18:54 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@nat/redhat/x-fcmpijxziuvgyjml] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:18:56 It'd have taken longer if I needed one which actually behaved differently when broken. 01:21:49 redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:29:08 Jubb [~ghost@129.21.84.122] has joined #lisp 01:29:22 ifaria [~user@2001:250:4001:143:222:68ff:fe76:88e4] has joined #lisp 01:29:25 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:29:35 -!- mephisto_ [~mephisto@dyn-166.pool2.cable.TORON12.iasl.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:30:04 -!- jwbro [~jwbro@12.0.85.3] has left #lisp 01:34:58 valium97582 [~daniel@c95334ae.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 01:35:52 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:40:49 -!- redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:41:18 redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:40 -!- valium97582 [~daniel@c95334ae.virtua.com.br] has quit [Quit: rebooting (new kernel)] 01:43:10 -!- jikanter [~jikanter@c-67-163-43-154.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has left #lisp 01:45:08 joshe: Does http://paste.lisp.org/display/118748 look good to you? (This change can be hot-patched into a running SBCL if you want to test it without doing a full build.) 01:46:13 myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 01:46:59 gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 01:55:06 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483B3B9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:01:41 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-118-191.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:03:34 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:46 cheez [~Adium@76-10-147-73.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 02:21:27 *ocharles* finds it a shame that Perl gets such a bad rep here 02:21:34 seeing as you guys defend your own language so much :) 02:22:00 It's a visceral kind of thing. 02:22:22 A bit like an art exhibition featuring vivisection. 02:22:33 You might intellectually accept that they have a point, but ... 02:22:38 -!- daniel [~daniel@p50829AA0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:23:16 *shrug* perl coding is my job, and has been for the last 2 years. I find will written Perl code just as beautiful as any other code 02:23:24 Of course, the same applies to most C programmers looking at lisp, so ... 02:23:37 Can you extend that kind of mental deformity to include php? :) 02:24:00 i don't think php will ever get love 02:24:01 :P 02:24:23 but it's real problem there is less the language, more the standard library, which is just a friggin mess 02:24:55 Well, you might look at scheme for an example of why that's not necessarily true. 02:25:23 CL's standard library is largely the result of mashing in the features of a dozen different dialects in order to facilitate porting. 02:26:17 There is no fundamental reason that I am aware of for its large size. 02:28:03 ... A lack of time to make it smaller? 02:29:15 No. I don't think so. 02:29:36 I think its large size was a selling feature before it had eaten its competition. 02:30:04 Since then it was standardized, locking them in. 02:31:00 -!- ASau [~user@93-80-250-194.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:31:44 ASau [~user@95-26-159-247.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 02:31:51 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: nighty night] 02:32:13 daniel [~daniel@p50829AA0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:46 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:35:55 mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-075-189-213-049.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:36:28 ocharles: i completely agree with you about perl 02:36:40 it gets an unjustly bad rap, imo 02:37:07 which isn't to say i'm not in love with lisp or anything... 02:37:19 won't fault you for that 02:38:14 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 02:38:53 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:39:18 otoh, perl has had its day in the sun... in the mid-90's 02:39:28 now python and ruby are having their day 02:40:12 but there'll likely be some other fad that will eclipse them as well, in time 02:40:17 -!- hlavaty [~user@95-88-27-48-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:41:05 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Quit: rpg] 02:41:37 i sometimes wonder if, if lisp was a brand new language that just came out recently, would it be more popular? 02:41:47 See clojure. 02:42:05 I suspect that ruby is already on the way out, and that python is peaking. 02:42:13 yeah.. but even clojure is weighed down with the history and negative sterotypes of lisp 02:42:13 My money is on javascript for the next wave. 02:42:35 Personally, I think that some of that is warranted -- let's see. 02:42:50 i'm not sure about javascript being the next wave 02:43:01 http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/bipolar.htm <- I think this has something relevant to say. 02:43:13 What else is there? :) 02:43:18 my money is more on the functional languages like f#, haskell, ocaml, and erlang 02:43:30 and, of course, lisp.. ;) 02:43:49 I don't think there is a "next wave" 02:43:55 we've reached a point where you don't just have programmers 02:44:06 There's always a next wave. It's because of fashion. 02:44:07 no silver bullet, yadayada 02:44:11 nah.. there'll be plenty of next waves 02:44:17 Zhivago: exactly 02:44:20 but not just fashion 02:44:26 nope, I think the wave has split into many rivers now 02:44:26 changing technology and new blood 02:44:45 in a way that I think they will all continue to push 02:45:11 Personally, I suspect that functional programming has also peaked. 02:45:13 as long as technology changes (like all these portable devices coming in to the mainstream now... but next maybe it'll be 3D or VR) there'll be changes in languages to develop for them 02:45:42 The advantages of functional programming (in the small) diminish as you move into incoherent distributed systems. 02:45:43 oh, no doubt 02:45:44 and as long as there's a fresh inflow of programmers, young programmers, they'll hopefully not be so burdened by the past, and be more open to trying something new 02:45:57 Likewise static type analysis. 02:46:21 i don't know.. i think functional programming has yet to reach its full potential.. 02:46:27 well we still have a lot of ground in static typing to cover 02:46:27 I suspect that "sloppy programming" is the next era. 02:46:34 gadts are still being explored a lot 02:46:39 in fact, you could say that all of computer science and computer tech in general is in its infancy 02:46:59 pattern: science yes, engineering practice, definitely 02:47:00 Static typing doesn't cross i/o boundaries unless you are really optimistic. 02:47:13 -!- xan_ [~xan@26.246.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:47:19 And those i/o boundaries are getting smaller as people move toward more distributable designs. 02:47:29 that's a good point 02:47:47 It's like functions in CL -- they're little islands where static analysis works -- connected by dynamic i/o bridgets. 02:48:00 And you don't need amazing static analysis to handle that kind of thing. 02:48:15 but it's also gaining ground due to developments in the automated proof field 02:48:17 But you can't trust what comes over that bridges blindly. 02:48:42 xan_ [~xan@26.246.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 02:48:46 Yeah, but again, you can't trust remote systems. 02:48:57 Which limits the power that such proofs gives you. 02:49:01 I don't think anyone is suggesting that, but static analysis is about limiting the possibilities of interactions between components 02:49:02 not everything's about remote systems 02:49:03 skeptomai [~cb@c-71-197-146-90.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:49:08 I don't see why you can't extend that over multiple systems 02:49:14 No. Static analysis is about determining what is impossible. 02:49:28 And thus declaring it as impossible 02:49:45 hence limiting interactions (i'm being pragmatically, I suppose) 02:49:53 And impossible only works if it is physically impossible or in a trusted system. 02:50:06 So the smaller your trusted systems get ... 02:50:16 static analysis is not an all or nothing proposition 02:50:25 there's a ton you can gain from it even when you don't have 100% safety 02:50:34 I don't see how systems can get smaller and be less suitable for static analysis 02:50:38 It seems the reverse to me 02:51:01 ocharles: Let's say that static analysis says "It's impossible for me to get an integer that is less than 10". 02:51:02 -!- astoon [~astoon@178.130.1.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:51:21 -!- skeptomai [~cb@c-71-197-146-90.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:51:22 ocharles: What happens if you assume that to be true, and then some bastard gives you one because he's a bastard? 02:51:43 that's not the only thing you can get from static analysis 02:51:53 I guess I can't answer that because my knowledge of static analysis is limited to static typing 02:51:57 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-218.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:51:58 pattern: Name something else. 02:52:08 it could tell you, for instance where you passed an integer to a function that can only handle strings 02:52:14 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-218.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:52:16 type mismatch 02:52:19 one of the most basic things 02:52:35 and if you've ever run lint/splint on C code you'll see it will give you a bazillion warnings 02:52:37 pattern: Only useful internally to those islands. 02:52:39 caching all sorts of things 02:52:48 Zhivago: not so. 02:52:55 Zhivago: those islands don't run on magic 02:53:03 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-217-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:03 they run on code that needs to be checked somehow 02:53:19 with exhaustive guards as well you can at least be sure you're handling all possible inputs in some way. Then it's up to the programmer to ensure the guards are granular enough 02:53:27 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-gcthntqwcoifjfyu] has joined #lisp 02:53:47 pattern: Actually, it doesn't need to be checked at all. But the point is that while it might help you to construct your message properly, it doesn't avoid it for the other end. 02:54:06 ocharles: Exhaustive guards are what static analysis is supposed to avoid. 02:54:26 If I only want to handle <10, then that has to be encoded somewhere in the program. Static analysis won't guarantee that I do the write thing, but if I have encoded my constraints into my problems, it should be able to avoid me getting >10 where I don't expect it 02:54:48 Zhivago: I disagree. By exhaustic I mean your guards cover the domain of your types 02:54:52 programming isn't about passing messages around to programs that magically can understand and handle those messages without any local code 02:55:02 Why would you ever wish to remove that? 02:56:40 astoon [~astoon@178.130.1.36] has joined #lisp 02:56:44 I think I said on Facebook a while back (shudder) that I'm still waiting for my ideal language, which feels right now it would be Lisp with haskell's type system 02:56:50 isn't there something like that now actually? 02:57:25 ocharles: If there isn't, surely you could bodge together an initial spec and implementation in short order? 02:58:08 nyef: where can I ebay some of this "free time" you speak of? 02:58:09 ;) 02:58:40 but writing a lisp compiler/interpreter is a rite of passage, so maybe I could have a play when I get round to that bit 02:58:43 I don't speak of "free time", but I can point out two sources right now: You're on IRC, and you still sleep on a regular basis. 02:58:43 well, there's Qi... a statically typed lisp 02:59:16 nyef: heh, it's more that I have a ton of other hobbies at the moment, and in the rest of my free time I just want to relax 02:59:31 Compiler hacking /is/ relaxing... sometimes. 02:59:33 but it's an idea that's stuck around long enough it will get some experimenting 02:59:41 spec writing is relaxing actually 02:59:50 well, when you're your own committee :) 03:00:00 That too! 03:00:01 ocharles: Yes. And the domain of your types isn't the domain of your inputs. 03:00:11 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 03:00:24 ocharles: Because you can't trust what is sending those inputs to you, you need to test them. 03:01:01 Zhivago: Sort of. You have to transform from one type to another 03:01:06 and that should always be your point of testing 03:01:25 ... Actually, it's been most of a decade since I started hacking in lisp, and I have yet to write my own lisp compiler. 03:01:28 so yes, you can still get runtime problems, but I don't see any logical way you could eliminate that 03:01:29 No. What it means is that your functions must always expect the universal type unless the input is from a trusted source. 03:01:37 No, that's not true 03:01:41 And the more distributed you get, the fewer trusted sources. 03:01:48 Provide reasoning. 03:01:55 one thing at a time 03:02:10 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 03:02:32 With I/O I follow a similar procedure to encoding in Perl. You decode what comes in, and you encode what goes out - always at the boundaries 03:02:50 In a similar way, when I do I/O, I "encode" to the type I want, and decode the type on the way out 03:02:59 The rest of that, I'm living in my own little world 03:03:07 where I can live in safe assumptions 03:03:15 milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 03:03:37 so yes, I have failure points at each point of I/O but I can see no other possible way that a program could be correct with bad input 03:03:42 ocharles: So, you need to accept the type of universal input ... 03:03:42 s/other// 03:03:52 Zhivago: yes, at the point of input, but not within my program 03:04:04 ocharles: Which is within your program in a distributed system. 03:04:33 Why? Why does a distributed system have to communicate with universal types? 03:04:54 Why can't my system communicate internally with type safety? 03:05:07 ocharles: Because you'd have to trust what's on the other end of your i/o. 03:05:17 which i/o are we talking here 03:05:31 ocharles: And you'd have to trust that the i/o is not corrupted by middlemen, like routers. 03:05:37 I'm arguing if external input goes into the distributed system and is of the expected type, I should be able to prove the system from there 03:05:49 Zhivago: that's a problem for my platform, not my language 03:05:53 my language should be able to assume it's safe 03:06:10 ocharles: Anything that crosses any distributed path. 03:06:30 That's where you're getting it wrong -- you can't assume that it is safe anymore. 03:06:41 Do you assume that tcp/ip is incorruptable? 03:06:43 the only way it can't be safe is that it could have the wrong value in the same domain 03:07:00 Or it could be out of domain. 03:07:04 no. 03:07:07 Yes. 03:07:08 let me step back a second 03:07:15 dude, are you going to let me argue my point? 03:07:17 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-106-129-201.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 03:07:37 Why do you think that i/o corruption needs to respect your expected domain? 03:07:38 Assume we're on a platform, X for our ideal language. We have 2 distributed systems, A and B which can communicate 03:08:14 I am arguing that platform X should *guarantee* perfect transmission from A to B 03:08:26 it doesn't have to be tcp/ip, I'm just assuming perfect communication 03:08:40 That assumption is unsupportable. 03:08:53 if that's attainable, then in theory a distributed system is just as provable as a single system 03:09:06 It is not attainable. 03:09:07 Zhivago: maybe, but I don't know. this may well be where my argument falls down 03:09:18 And this is the crux of the matter. 03:09:34 All that remains is the degree of overconfidence you're going to accept. 03:11:10 As your systems get larger, the consequences of that overconfidence get larger. 03:11:34 In the end you need to apply statistical methods to determine the degree of confidence you have in your correct functioning. 03:11:35 -!- Edward [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-25-189.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 03:12:08 look at a web browser 03:12:09 I agree that you lose confidence as it scales, but I'm curious if it's not good enough. But then I guess that's sort of against the grain of formal methods 03:12:23 a web browser communicates to remote machines, most of which it certainly can't trust 03:12:43 But I still argue that you can have type safety between systems 03:12:54 but a web browser could still benefit from static analysis 03:12:56 Only if you check. 03:12:57 and that does mean that your only problems are values changing in domain 03:13:07 Zhivago: right, but that was my argument that the platform can check 03:13:11 pattern: ... and sufficient numbers of which are actively malicious, to the point that I still have to scrub malware out of my system on a semi-regular basis. :-/ 03:13:25 And you must check, for values both inside and outside your domain. 03:13:29 static analysis on a web browser could (in theory) guarantee that it wouldn't crash no matter what untrusted input it got 03:13:47 Zhivago: so I can still build my distributed system with internal type saftey 03:13:54 no? 03:14:13 Except that as your system become more distributed, the internal spaces become smaller. 03:14:30 Since it is those internal spaces that determine the granularity of distribution. 03:14:39 Is that not dependent on the type of system? 03:14:44 well, you could consider the internet as a whole right now as a gigantic distributed system 03:14:52 pattern: Indeed. 03:15:02 yet there's tons of places that could benefit greatly from static analysis 03:15:13 ocharles: Is what not dependent upon the type of system:? 03:15:26 Zhivago: the type of granularity 03:15:27 pattern: As an added burden, probably. 03:15:35 burden? 03:15:37 ocharles: No. 03:15:43 have you ever ran a static analysis tool on C code? 03:15:48 pattern: Sure. 03:15:51 i've done it a lot.. and i can tell you it's a huge help 03:16:14 Again, no silver bullet, I'm not suggesting that you could achieve this for all distributed systems, but I'd imagine there's a subset of problems that would be suitable for effective internal static typing 03:16:14 -!- xinming_ [~hyy@115.221.2.172] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:16:14 That's nice -- but irrelevant. 03:16:47 pattern: I think mine and Zhivago's argument is on the pure side of static analysis - which is more than it's 100% or 0%. It's meant to be a proof 03:16:54 If you want to use static analysis to ensure that you are satisfying your own contractual obligations, that's fine. 03:17:06 But that's independent of type safety. 03:17:24 not all of static analysis is about type safety 03:17:30 -!- myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:17:32 static analysis is just analysis of code before it runs 03:17:47 which can be a ton of different things apart from checking types 03:17:59 and it's definitely not an all or nothing proposition 03:18:02 pattern: right, with the intention of proving correctness 03:18:12 no.. the intention is reducing bugs 03:18:20 if you can prove it correct, then that's great 03:18:27 then I think we have a disagreement of terms :) 03:18:31 but that's an unrealistic goal for many programs 03:18:34 especially when they get complex 03:18:37 Proving correctness requires ensuring that the other party also satisfies their contratual obligations. 03:18:41 and are written in unsafe languages 03:18:47 And that's where the problems come in. 03:19:19 so then what do we do? We've established the outside world cannot be trusted, now what? 03:19:21 (Or that ensuring that your operations are not corrupted, which you cannot) 03:19:54 Now you need to talk about observing expected behaviour. 03:20:11 and being statistically sure that we're getting correct input? 03:20:12 ocharles: The next step is proving that the inner world can't be trusted either, thanks to the existence of debugger APIs. 03:20:19 Realistically you need to accept that you can't prove that you'll honour your own contractual obligations with static analysis. 03:20:36 Since your internal communications can be corrupt. 03:20:58 So it means things like "I expect this function to produce values that have this kind of distribution" 03:21:05 How much is it deviating from that? 03:21:21 So probabilistic validation on the output, but not the input? 03:21:21 Or I expect these two components to give me the same answers -- how much do they deviate? 03:21:33 You also need it on the input. 03:21:35 ok 03:21:42 xinming [~hyy@115.223.128.141] has joined #lisp 03:21:44 and what happens when we our outside the expected distribution? 03:21:53 int random() { return 4; /* chosen by fair die roll, guaranteed to be IID over the range 1-6. */ } 03:21:54 which could still be in the domain? 03:22:22 Then you change your behaviours -- if component A doesn't behave as expected, try an equivalent component B. 03:22:43 Think of how unit tests operate, and then think about how you could extend that to live, dynamic systems. 03:22:47 If components A and B are truly equivalent, it won't behave as expected, either. 03:23:24 In which case your expectations are probably wrong, but otherwise you could try C, or give up complaining that the world isn't what you were told to expect. 03:23:31 interesting. any papers or further research on this you know of Zhivago? I gotta sleep soon, but it's stuff I haven't heard of before... 03:24:00 ocharles: Try RPG's stuff on pliant systems, for starters? 03:24:15 nyef: I don't know what/who "RPG" is 03:24:33 Point, and there are several famous RPGs out there. 03:24:38 Gabriel. 03:25:15 It's all fairly infantile, afaik, but it's a necessary consequence of massively distributed systems. 03:26:36 watch this space I guess 03:28:37 oh also, http://chrisdone.com/posts/2010-11-25-lisk-lisp-haskell.html 03:28:42 i knew I'd seen something similar 03:29:22 Liskell 03:29:39 http://www.liskell.org/ 03:29:47 Ah, "self repairing software" seems to be a useful keyword. 03:31:07 noca [~user@61.135.255.86] has joined #lisp 03:31:56 Intensity [6ndHX9dVt7@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 03:32:46 -!- xan_ [~xan@26.246.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:34:08 mephisto_ [~mephisto@airmarshal-v217-218-8.airyork.yorku.ca] has joined #lisp 03:35:10 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:36:37 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 03:41:13 Vicfred [~Vicfred@201.102.114.207] has joined #lisp 03:47:05 i've created a package using (make-package "learn") and then defined and exported a function "foobar" in "learn" using defun and export 03:47:31 but back in the "COMMON-LISP-USER" package, when i type (learn:foobar) i get an error: package "LEARN" not found 03:48:04 is the problem that i'm running in to that when i used make-package, i had to write "LEARN" instead of "learn"? 03:48:11 ASau` [~user@95-27-211-235.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 03:49:26 -!- ASau [~user@95-26-159-247.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:49:39 You could have written #:learn instead. 03:49:53 Or learn, for that matter. 03:49:55 nyef: oh, I don't know the compiler well enough to say 03:49:58 when? during make-package? 03:50:16 pattern: Yes. 03:50:31 joshe: It was more for if you had an actual failing example. But I think I've found a bug in the patch already. 03:50:34 pattern: CL is actually case sensitive -- it just pretends not to be, in order to be maximally annoying. 03:50:49 ah 03:50:50 (Loop, Infinite: See Infinite Loop.) 03:52:00 hmm.. (make-package '#:learn) worked.. but then (in-package '#:learn) complained about "'#:LEARN cannot be coerced to a string." 03:52:10 so i had to write (in-package "LEARN") 03:52:17 which is also kind of annoying... 03:52:54 (in-package #:learn) 03:52:56 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 03:52:59 It's a macro, not a function. 03:53:15 Or you could just use (in-package learn) 03:53:33 The #: is only useful if you want to avoid cluttering up a package with symbols you won't use again. 03:54:58 (|learn|:foobar), maybe? 03:56:34 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 03:57:07 Oh well, time I got some sleep. 03:57:12 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-70-20-57-204.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 03:58:15 thanks, zshivago.. and nyef 03:58:38 -!- k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 03:59:54 psilord [~psilord@adsl-71-150-253-113.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:59:55 -!- psilord [~psilord@adsl-71-150-253-113.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 04:04:33 well, as a newbie to lisp i have to say that after hearing all the hype about how lisp has "no syntax", it's disappointing to find just how much syntax it has 04:04:53 the only syntax is a list :P 04:04:54 all the different quoting rules and when to use #: or : or :: 04:05:02 ( ... ) <-- that's it 04:05:44 what about " and ' and #: an : and :: ? 04:06:06 what's so bad about that? 04:06:07 atomic forms :P they can be easily changed 04:06:11 and ` and , and #+ and #. etc :) 04:06:12 pattern: Lisp has a lot of syntax. It is just superficially similar at the grammatical level. 04:06:27 pattern: er, superficialy simple. 04:06:42 mephisto_: it's just confusing to me.. that's what so bad about it 04:06:45 pattern: I think that a more important question to think about is this: What does (a b c) mean? 04:07:02 Is there something like accessor-exists-p? 04:07:11 that's okay. i'm a noob too. 04:07:17 a is a function, b and c are arguments 04:07:17 i've just spent a day reading various tutorials on the package system, and have typed a lot in to the repl just to be met with various confusing errors of one type or another 04:07:18 wol: Not for structs. 04:07:19 maybe even more noobish 04:07:21 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:07:21 just needed to vent a bit.. 04:07:27 wol: You could see no-applicable-method, for gfs. 04:07:45 pattern: Well, it sounds like your main problem is with the syntax of 'words'. 04:07:58 Landr: No. 04:08:04 Zhivago: (a b c) ? it means whatever the macro you've written wants it to mean.. ;) 04:08:04 ? 04:08:18 *** - EVAL: undefined function A 04:08:18 Landr: There's no reason that a should be a function and b and c are arguments. 04:08:26 oh sure :P 04:08:37 but if you enter that in the REPL it's interpreted as a function 04:08:44 Landr: No. 04:08:48 ? 04:08:53 Landr: It depends on the enclosing context. 04:09:22 in a defun (a b c) could be arguments 04:09:29 "in the top-level of the REPL, (a b c) is interpreted as a function called with arguments b and c" :P 04:09:31 Landr: So we cannot say what (a b c) means without understanding the lexical context within which it occurs. 04:09:36 Landr: You are wrong. 04:09:42 argh :( 04:09:55 Landr: (defmacro a (b c) (list b c)) <- put this in and see what happens. 04:10:13 hmpf :\ 04:10:29 Then consider what a symbol-macrolet could do with b or c. 04:10:30 *** - EVAL: undefined function B 04:14:05 Zhivago. Thanks. I'll look at no-applicable-method 04:14:21 wol: Why do you care, by the way? 04:14:42 Landr: try this: (defun b (x) (* x 2)) 04:14:46 (defvar c 2) 04:14:50 (a b c) 04:15:02 4 04:15:23 so there the function that was applied was b 04:15:47 *Landr* hasn't figured out macros fully yet :P 04:15:51 me neither 04:16:16 but at least i got to section II of LoL! 04:18:24 from the almost nothing i know about macros, i am guessing that the macro zhivago made simply creates (b c) out of (a b c) 04:18:40 and (b c) is a function application of b to c 04:18:48 -!- benny [~benny@i577A2047.versanet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:19:33 and, seeing as it's a macro, it doesn't return the list but evals it? 04:19:58 (since all it did was, basically, change my (a b c) to (b c) ) 04:20:02 well, i think what it does is just rearrange the input it gets 04:20:15 from (a b c) to (b c) 04:20:25 then that's handed to the repl to treat as usual 04:21:07 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 04:21:30 and, btw, the b and c don't have to be literally b and c 04:21:45 Looking at some DAOs and wondering if they had the equivalent of a database function like column-exists-p 04:22:49 Zhivago: Above was meant in response to your question. 04:23:34 Zhivago. More error checking than anything else 04:25:34 -!- mephisto_ [~mephisto@airmarshal-v217-218-8.airyork.yorku.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:28:49 wol: You might be better off maintaining a schema that knows how to answer that question for the classes that you care about. 04:31:52 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:34:43 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@pool-173-69-160-222.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:35:03 adamvh [~adamvh@pool-173-69-160-222.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:35:19 benny [~benny@i577A1CAB.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 04:37:41 Zhivago: The right answer is not trying to maintain a database with some tables have an updated column in unix time and other tables having an updated_at column in a time stamp and some tables having both. 04:38:28 Zhivago. And the ones that have both don't match because of time zone issues. 04:38:37 Well, if you normalized them properly ... 04:39:08 mephisto_ [~mephisto@airmarshal-v217-218-8.airyork.yorku.ca] has joined #lisp 04:39:50 -!- astoon [~astoon@178.130.1.36] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:43:07 -!- az [~az@p5796C35E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:44:55 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@201.102.114.207] has quit [Quit: ] 04:46:20 k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:50:35 az [~az@p4FE4EC02.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:55:45 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:56:02 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sbahra] 04:56:31 Vicfred [~Vicfred@201.102.114.207] has joined #lisp 04:57:38 adamvh_ [~adamvh@pool-173-69-160-222.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:59:00 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] 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07:28:10 Demosthenes [~demo@12.155.211.88] has joined #lisp 07:29:54 -!- redline6` [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 07:30:15 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:30:32 redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:32:46 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:32:52 good morning 07:36:53 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:41:22 PuffTheMagic [~PuffTheMa@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has joined #lisp 07:43:04 splittist [~John@235-177.1-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:43:14 morning 07:44:59 chrnybo [~user@148.122.202.244] has joined #lisp 07:46:45 Joreji [~thomas@75-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 07:51:26 Joreji_ [~thomas@75-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 07:52:27 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@12.155.211.88] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:54:28 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 08:04:07 ecraven [~user@140.78.42.213] has joined #lisp 08:04:07 -!- splittist [~John@235-177.1-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:06:09 pavelludiq [57f63ac1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 08:07:26 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@75-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:08:22 -!- Joreji [~thomas@75-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:09:10 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:10:05 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 08:12:37 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-suesrchpcmvvlroo] has joined #lisp 08:15:18 -!- aidalgol [aidan@2002:453d:f72::1337:3] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 08:15:37 mtd [~martin@chop.xades.com] has joined #lisp 08:15:48 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:17:18 aidalgol [aidan@2002:453d:f72::1337:3] has joined #lisp 08:17:58 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-158-39.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:18:16 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@ip22-159.200.109.crimea.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:19:38 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-181-26.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 08:20:27 grouzen [~grouzen@ip22-159.200.109.crimea.com] has joined #lisp 08:20:46 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:21:35 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.154.96] has joined #lisp 08:23:04 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 08:24:34 -!- spiaggia` is now known as spiaggia 08:25:23 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:25:26 Hello mvilleneuve (and for the logs, hello splittist). 08:29:50 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:29:52 -!- CDomovoy is now known as CyberDomovoy 08:31:56 -!- k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 08:33:29 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-143-239.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:34:59 aerique [euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:34:59 spiaggia: hello! How are things going in Vietnam? 08:35:35 mvilleneuve: Fine! Very busy though. And a large part of lasts week was taken up by writing a paper :) 08:36:34 mvilleneuve: But it's great because I have started working with my PhD student here, and there are several colleagues from Bx here at the moment, so that stimulates discussions related to research. 08:36:56 mvilleneuve: How about you? 08:38:26 xraycat [~Miranda@brln-4db96fd5.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:40:24 spiaggia: pretty busy as well, and a bit disappointed that our new customer requires that a server side module be written in Java (I had hoped we could use Lisp instead) 08:41:33 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:41:46 mvilleneuve: Oh, well. Did you tell him that it will be 5 times as expensive then because of your decreased productivity? :) 08:42:27 k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:43:26 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:44:40 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:45:44 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 08:46:14 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:47:20 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-127-45.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:48:54 Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has joined #lisp 08:49:14 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 08:49:52 tcr1 [~tcr@213.55.131.17] has joined #lisp 08:50:26 spiaggia: I didn't say 5, but I did mention a much larger quantity of work. It's a small module so it's not too serious, but still disappointing. 08:50:32 Joreji [~thomas@76-243.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 08:51:35 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-36-190.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:52:14 splittist [~John@235-177.1-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 08:52:16 re 08:54:16 fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-165-110.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 09:01:24 moore33 [~moore@ABordeaux-153-1-12-70.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:01:50 brodo [~brodo@p5B024416.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:03:38 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:05:34 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.154.96] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:06:43 -!- macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-152-12.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:06:58 -!- vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:08:18 citizen428 [~citizen42@chello213047077012.23.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 09:10:32 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.154.96] has joined #lisp 09:12:16 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 09:14:14 vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 09:20:51 lundis [~lundis@dyn56-476.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 09:21:09 -!- sid3k [~user@li140-93.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:22:37 IamTrying [~IamTrying@78-23-95-152.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 09:23:16 sid3k [~user@li140-93.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 09:24:29 Using lisp can i do a web application ? Like capturing audio/video in the web browser, does it allow like JVM/JavaFX/Silverlight ? 09:24:49 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:24:58 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.61.203.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 09:25:14 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.61.203.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 09:25:30 IamTrying: no. 09:26:08 -!- rien [~unkanon@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:26:17 you can do a web application, with lisp on the server side, and possibly also with lisp compiled to ecmascript for the client side. this doesn't allow or disallow those other things, they are orthogonal. also, maybe you can run a lisp on the JVM in an applet. 09:26:54 rien [~unkanon@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 09:27:06 arbscht_: "like JVM/JavaFX/Silverlight" is a no. 09:27:27 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 09:27:43 H4ns: perhaps. I found that wording ambiguous. 09:28:51 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 09:28:51 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 09:28:51 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 09:29:22 Ic thanks arbscht_ , H4ns , but is there any non web libraries for , low latency audio using lisp like ex: RtAudio and Video (gstreamer/Vlc) wrappers 09:30:01 *no web browser case 09:30:11 IamTrying: there are sdl bindings. there is no good multimedia support out-of-the box, though. 09:30:19 IamTrying: check cliki.net. the lispgames people are using some libraries like that. try asking in #lispgames too 09:32:08 Ok great info thanks a lot. 09:33:15 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 09:35:00 Posterdati [~tapioca@host127-230-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 09:35:24 hi ppl 09:36:59 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d0038d6.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:37:02 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.3.207] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:38:20 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 09:40:07 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:40:10 varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 09:40:50 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.154.96] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:43:23 xan_ [~xan@26.246.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 09:44:40 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn2-83.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 09:45:32 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:48:35 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:49:16 -!- beach [~user@116.118.72.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:52:42 hlavaty [~user@95-88-27-48-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 10:06:29 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:07:33 H4ns` [~user@pD4B9EB94.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:11:02 -!- H4ns [~user@pD4B9EBB9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:15:18 easyEE [d521469d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 10:16:21 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-165-110.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 10:16:23 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:17:41 serichsen [~user@switch1.elmi.uni-bonn.de] has joined #lisp 10:17:43 Hello! 10:17:44 -!- ASau` [~user@95-27-211-235.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: reboot] 10:18:57 Hello serichsen. What's new and exciting? 10:22:32 misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has joined #lisp 10:23:05 mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 10:23:05 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has quit [Changing host] 10:23:05 mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has joined #lisp 10:24:13 Not much. I'm dabbling around with the manipulation of cif files (crystal information format). 10:25:51 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 10:29:50 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 10:30:16 -!- H4ns` is now known as H4ns 10:31:40 serichsen: the file or the framework format? 10:33:48 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-108-141.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:34:24 -!- gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:34:28 ASau [~user@95-27-211-235.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 10:35:06 splittist: I am parsing in a file, change the space group, and write it out again. 10:35:13 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 10:35:36 Changing the space group involves applying symmetry operations to atom sites, of course. 10:35:51 serichsen: of course (: XML? 10:36:00 No. 10:36:21 CIF is a specialized STAR format. 10:37:14 It's quite simple; I wrote a little parser from scratch in 50 lines or so. 10:37:50 so you can't use checkCIF? 10:38:12 serichsen: I <3 small parsers (: 10:38:16 -!- ASau [~user@95-27-211-235.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 10:38:51 splittist: Why not? 10:39:10 My question was first! 10:39:34 splittist: Why should I not be able to use checkCIF? 10:41:07 -!- __hramrach [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:41:16 serichsen: I had the - obviously mistaken - impression that it only covered the XML CIFramework, not the CIFile, format. I will stop meddling in affairs I understand not wot of. 10:41:17 -!- xan_ [~xan@26.246.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:42:39 -!- k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 10:42:41 __hramrach [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has joined #lisp 10:43:51 splittist: It has, thankfully, nothing to do with XML. :) 10:44:46 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:45:03 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 10:47:25 lorenz [~moesenle@atradig141.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 10:48:13 ASau [~user@95-27-211-235.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 10:51:38 -!- Jabberwockey [~quassel@83.151.30.10] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 10:51:49 Jabberwockey [~quassel@83.151.30.10] has joined #lisp 10:51:56 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-34-27-243.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 10:56:16 good day everyone 10:59:12 -!- xraycat [~Miranda@brln-4db96fd5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:02:31 -!- noca [~user@61.135.255.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:02:54 ello 11:05:21 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-218.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:05:51 -!- easyEE [d521469d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.33.70.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:06:59 :) 11:07:57 leo2007 [~leo@222.77.38.236] has joined #lisp 11:08:55 -!- varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 11:10:29 -!- moore33 [~moore@ABordeaux-153-1-12-70.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 11:10:41 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-254-159.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 11:11:36 xan_ [~xan@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 11:19:47 Yuuhi [benni@p5483B2F0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:20:12 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-118-191.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 11:21:11 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:26:19 statonjr-ios [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:27:17 myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 11:28:20 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d0038d6.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:29:50 -!- Joreji [~thomas@76-243.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:31:59 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-gcthntqwcoifjfyu] has left #lisp 11:35:09 javuchi [~noname@105.Red-95-123-193.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:35:26 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:36:50 -!- statonjr-ios [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 11:39:05 -!- javuchi [~noname@105.Red-95-123-193.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:40:12 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:40:43 javuchi [~noname@105.Red-95-123-193.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:48:04 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 11:48:04 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 11:48:04 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 11:50:24 -!- ASau [~user@95-27-211-235.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: reboot] 11:54:12 ASau [~user@95-27-211-235.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 11:57:55 -!- javuchi [~noname@105.Red-95-123-193.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 11:57:57 Joreji [~thomas@75-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:03:27 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:13:02 katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 12:13:02 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 12:13:02 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 12:13:57 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 12:14:25 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:16:58 lonesomerider [~lonesomer@188.123.252.26] has joined #lisp 12:18:06 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 12:18:17 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:19:25 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 12:19:50 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:21:43 nyef [~nyef@pool-70-20-57-204.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 12:21:49 hi nyef :) 12:21:56 G'morning. 12:22:05 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:23:31 Anything interesting happening, or shall I just get on with fixing tail-local-calls in SBCL? 12:23:36 -!- IamTrying [~IamTrying@78-23-95-152.access.telenet.be] has left #lisp 12:28:29 drdo [~user@2001:690:2100:1b:226:8ff:fef7:3d9e] has joined #lisp 12:29:57 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-158-247.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:30:52 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-218.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 12:31:04 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-218.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:31:06 yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 12:31:57 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-164-227.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:32:28 -!- manic12 [~andrew@99-100-67-123.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:36:49 RaykOn [~user@194.210.228.127] has joined #lisp 12:36:59 Hello 12:37:03 ola 12:37:05 nyef: no, and yes. 12:37:11 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 12:37:17 Heh. Fair enough. 12:37:21 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 12:37:52 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:39:14 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:39:26 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-218.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 12:40:02 -!- fezzle [~fezzle_@76.64.39.147] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:41:09 splittist: well, given that (apparently) matthew danish abandoned parse-number, I adopted it: http://gitorious.org/common-lisp/parse-number 12:41:36 and made a new release, http://common-lisp.net/~sionescu/files/parse-number-1.1.tar.gz 12:41:49 fe[nl]ix: does it parse double floats correctly yet, i should have a fix somewhere 12:42:00 -!- RaykOn [~user@194.210.228.127] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:42:41 *aerique* hasn't seen matthew danish in years 12:43:39 fe[nl]ix: that is awesome 12:45:54 I still wonder why Debian has removed parse-number. 12:47:26 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:49:49 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn2-83.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:52:39 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 12:54:02 -!- Joreji [~thomas@75-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:54:08 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-218.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:55:03 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@ip22-159.200.109.crimea.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:55:16 kamikaza [~kamikaza@92.53.53.67] has joined #lisp 12:55:21 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 12:55:22 -!- kamikaza [~kamikaza@92.53.53.67] has left #lisp 12:56:12 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:56:30 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:01:37 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-218.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 13:01:45 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-72.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 13:02:19 -!- zeroish [~zeroish@135.207.174.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:02:25 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 13:02:45 tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:02:45 -!- tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:03:59 tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:04:49 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:05:14 -!- tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:05:38 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:08:54 grouzen [~grouzen@ip22-159.200.109.crimea.com] has joined #lisp 13:10:22 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:14:38 -!- Adlai_ [~leif@ool-18bfe51c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:14:50 moore33 [~moore@ABordeaux-153-1-12-70.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:16:17 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-143-239.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:16:52 adamvh [~adamvh@pool-173-69-160-222.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:59 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:17:16 serichsen: AFAIK they have a policy that if the maintainer is gone the package is orphaned then after a while completely removed 13:17:29 aerique: send me the fix 13:18:33 Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 13:19:41 fe[nl]ix: will do when i can find some time at home (could be a couple of days) 13:20:33 aerique: was it in your starter pack? 13:20:44 for the ai challenge? 13:20:58 Blkt: no, discovered the problem later in the challenge 13:21:10 I see 13:21:20 feel free to reproduce it :) 13:22:06 -!- misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 13:22:22 Joreji [~thomas@76-243.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:22:33 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:23:04 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has joined #lisp 13:23:13 statonjr [~statonjr@rrcs-70-60-193-169.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:23:25 *splittist* reminds himself to do a (let ((*standard-output* (make-broadcast-stream) ... the next time he asdf:load-systems a big one... 13:23:26 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:23:29 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:23:46 fe[nl]ix: that is a problem for other packages that depend on it. In this case, it seems that, e.g., cxml breaks. (Yes, you are not the one to complain to; just ranting.) 13:23:47 quickload it! 13:24:39 s/big one/system of his that depends on a &/ 13:24:47 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:25:04 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:25:42 serichsen: what do you mean that cxml breaks ? 13:28:42 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:28:55 fe[nl]ix: cxml depends on parse-number. 13:28:58 francogrex [c14be4fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.75.228.252] has joined #lisp 13:29:31 fe[nl]ix: at least, it does so in portage resp. lisp-overlay. 13:29:35 -!- sellout [~greg@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Quit: sellout] 13:29:47 fe[nl]ix: on second though, it might just be a user error: i had expected a string like "1.234567890123" not to be coerced to a single-float. it parses fine if i append "d0" to the string so i might just have to massage my input a little 13:29:52 *thought 13:30:21 aerique: *read-default-float-format* ? 13:30:48 nyef: learn something new every day i guess, thanks :) 13:31:55 nyef: it seems that parse-number doesn't honor *r-d-f-f*. should it ? 13:32:19 fe[nl]ix: so, not cxml breaks, but its dependencies. I imagine that someone who tries to install cxml via apt now will not be happy. 13:32:27 nyef: can you resurrect minion, please? 13:32:33 serichsen: there's no cxml in debian 13:32:49 fe[nl]ix: Oh, OK then. 13:33:01 fe[nl]ix: mucking around with grovel (cffi) but still difficult, can someone comment pls: http://paste.lisp.org/display/118753 13:33:17 nyef: long time no see 13:33:57 francogrex: don't do that. use an ASDF system 13:33:57 fe[nl]ix: please review http://gitorious.org/~lichteblau/common-lisp/lichteblau-parse-number/commits/misc-fixes 13:34:41 why is it not easier this way (more dynamic) ? 13:34:43 lichtblau: ok. btw, could you push cxml to github as well, and possibly make a new release(with the fixes for ASDF2) ? 13:34:44 fixes the test suite to actually list failures; fixes *rdff*, and an issue where floats were parsed is integers. One long float issue remains. 13:35:58 (might need testing on more implementations) 13:37:05 francogrex: because cffi-grovel was made to integrate with ASDF, which is pretty easy 13:37:30 urandom__ [~user@p548A7DDB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:40:08 fe[nl]ix: I don't understand. Is there a cxml on github that isn't up-to-date, or would you like it to appear there? 13:41:31 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.61.203.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 13:41:42 lichtblau: I'd prefer following your version, rather than random forks which may or may not be up-to-date 13:42:02 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-075-189-213-049.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:42:28 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 13:42:29 Bot resurrection? I'll get to that in a bit, I guess. 13:44:40 what does it mean: note: SBCL on windows can't redirect output. 13:48:55 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@211.177.88.67] has joined #lisp 13:50:06 lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:50:34 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Quit] 13:51:05 specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:51:31 minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:51:37 rien_ [~rien_@rrcs-69-193-217-130.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:51:59 minion: All better now? 13:52:00 please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 13:52:05 Good. 13:52:26 stassats: Resurrection completed. 13:52:33 jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:55:32 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-dstrkoilcdhobrve] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:56:14 lichtblau: pushed 13:56:14 nyef: yay! 13:56:48 minion: hi! 13:56:48 what's up? 13:57:32 minion: where have you been? we missed you! 13:57:32 behind you! 13:57:46 minion: smart boy 13:57:46 please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 13:57:56 minions are forever! 13:58:16 -!- rien_ [~rien_@rrcs-69-193-217-130.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:00:13 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:01:28 nasstop [~cjn0496@eedept-4150adiml6.rit.edu] has joined #lisp 14:02:14 Do you think it is possible to translate land of lisp to scheme while working through the examples 14:02:53 rien_ [~rien_@rrcs-69-193-217-130.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:03:34 nasstop: to learn scheme, i'd turn to a scheme book 14:03:47 nasstop: yes. Do you know scheme already or are you trying to learn it? If you already know it, why not use LoL to explore CL? 14:04:01 nullman` [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:04:02 (and if you don't what H4ns said) 14:04:15 I know some scheme...but I'm not an expert. I've started working through SICP/ Little Schemer 14:04:40 Patzy_ [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:05:03 jweiss__ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:05:17 -!- jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:05:17 -!- moore33 [~moore@ABordeaux-153-1-12-70.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:05:17 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:05:17 -!- Bucciarati [~buccia@www.inscatolati.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:05:18 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:05:18 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:05:18 -!- naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:05:18 -!- nullman [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:05:18 -!- peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:05:18 -!- mal__ [~mal@www2.wimmekes.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:05:18 -!- Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:05:22 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-72.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:05:26 -!- francogrex [c14be4fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.75.228.252] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:05:33 nasstop: the examples in land of list don't directly translate to bare scheme, and in general scheme and common lisp are rather different. i'd not use a book that is meant to teach one language to learn another. 14:06:09 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 14:06:12 Beeff [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 14:06:16 Do you think it would be confusing to learn the two in parallel? 14:06:23 nasstop: i'd be confused. 14:06:24 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:08:18 -!- brodo [~brodo@p5B024416.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: brodo] 14:08:25 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:08:25 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:08:25 -!- aidalgol [aidan@2002:453d:f72::1337:3] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:08:25 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:08:25 -!- az [~az@p5796CD55.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:08:26 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@83.1.168.198] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:08:26 -!- xristos [~x@2001:470:8859:cafe:20c:29ff:fe47:788] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:08:26 -!- arbscht_ [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:08:26 -!- bfein [~morik@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:08:26 -!- siccegge_ [~siccegge@faui49p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:08:26 -!- og [foobar@puck.ogr.no] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:08:26 -!- fnordus [~dnall@S01060023693bfad4.va.shawcable.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:08:26 -!- dcrawford [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:08:26 -!- g000001 [~mc@www14045u.sakura.ne.jp] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:08:26 -!- borism [~boris@ec2-79-125-58-77.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:08:38 nasstop: a person who knows both scheme and lisp could probably translate "land of lisp" into "land of scheme". but then, i'm not sure if that'd make a lot of sense. scheme emphasizes different things than lisp, and one wants to teach different things to a beginning schemer than to a beginning lisper. 14:08:39 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 14:08:50 schoppen1auer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:08:53 (well, now i said the same thing three times in a row and will stop here :) ) 14:09:02 fnordus [~dnall@S01060023693bfad4.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 14:09:14 az [~az@p5796CD55.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:09:19 thanks 14:09:28 then I won' 14:09:34 t cloud my brain yet 14:09:35 heheh 14:09:37 og [foobar@puck.ogr.no] has joined #lisp 14:09:42 g000001 [~mc@www14045u.sakura.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:10:13 nasstop: but you already said you were learning scheme (; 14:10:16 mathrick [~mathrick@83.1.168.198] has joined #lisp 14:10:20 bfein [~morik@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:10:21 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.61.203.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 14:10:22 heh 14:10:26 xristos [~x@2001:470:8859:cafe:20c:29ff:fe47:788] has joined #lisp 14:10:30 dcrawford [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:10:32 -!- xristos is now known as Guest80187 14:10:39 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has joined #lisp 14:10:39 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has quit [Changing host] 14:10:39 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 14:11:17 36DAA07FI [~siccegge@faui49p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de] has joined #lisp 14:11:17 moore33 [~moore@ABordeaux-153-1-12-70.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:11:17 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 14:11:17 Bucciarati [~buccia@www.inscatolati.net] has joined #lisp 14:11:17 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 14:11:17 naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has joined #lisp 14:11:17 peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 14:11:17 mal__ [~mal@www2.wimmekes.net] has joined #lisp 14:11:38 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 14:13:04 Does anyone use iterate and have an opinion about whether the last release (1.4.3) or the darcs version is better? 14:14:13 *LiamH* gets his iterate from ql and is happy with it 14:14:20 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 14:14:40 Apparently it fails some of its own tests. 14:15:14 Really? Never tried to run the tests. 14:15:29 Xach: I can see that ql's success is going to shrink the number of people who know anything about non-ql releases/distributions... 14:16:19 simontwo_ [~simon@78.129.201.122] has joined #lisp 14:16:19 I cannot compare them, but can report running the darcs version (with all of Joerg's changes, but without attila's most recent one) successfully. 14:16:34 kruft`` [~user@c-98-214-105-38.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:19 kencausey2 [~ken@67.15.6.88] has joined #lisp 14:17:19 *Xach* doesn't know how to actually run the tests 14:17:48 redline6` [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:51 eno__ [~eno@adsl-70-137-134-172.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:59 ``Erik_ [Here@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:00 i recently succeeded running them, but with some tinkering 14:18:12 araujo [~araujo@190.38.51.34] has joined #lisp 14:18:12 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.38.51.34] has quit [Changing host] 14:18:12 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 14:18:31 there should also be a bug report from Mihai Bazon somewhere (mailing list i think) 14:18:55 but he has not received any response 14:18:58 Hmm, I don't get the same failures as this fella emailed me about. 14:19:05 arbscht_ [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 14:19:07 g000001_ [~mc@www14045u.sakura.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:19:47 I've never tried them, but it looks like rt, so presumably it's (rt::do-tests). 14:20:28 -!- lonesomerider [~lonesomer@188.123.252.26] has left #lisp 14:20:30 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:20:30 -!- simontwo [~simon@78.129.201.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:20:31 -!- __hramrach [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:20:31 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:20:31 -!- kencausey [~ken@67.15.6.88] has quit [Ping 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quit [Excess Flood] 14:21:25 it has a method for asdf:test-op 14:21:37 parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:37 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 14:21:54 __hramrach [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has joined #lisp 14:22:29 Yuuhi [benni@p5483B2F0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:22:42 ok, i get 6 out of 261 tests failed... 14:23:06 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.137.186] has joined #lisp 14:23:11 -!- Joreji [~thomas@76-243.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:23:22 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 14:23:35 if i see the numbers right... 14:23:36 -!- arbscht_ is now known as arbscht 14:23:47 Hmm, I only get one failure. 14:24:25 jdz: Are you using 64-bit sbcl on linux? 14:24:38 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-118-191.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:24:53 Xach: yes 14:25:01 *Xach* wonders why there is a difference 14:25:13 i'm still checking if i'm doing everything right myself 14:25:25 i have two instances of iterate (one of them from ql) 14:25:38 joeygibson [~joeygibso@208.52.139.50] has joined #lisp 14:30:38 hmm, after removing .fasl files i'm down to 1 failed test... 14:30:42 that's very strange 14:31:09 ASau` [~user@95-27-211-235.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 14:32:15 -!- euphidime [u178@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jcdlchszoqboxjfo] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 14:32:45 jweiss__ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:32:56 and back to 6 again on successive runs 14:33:05 -!- ASau [~user@95-27-211-235.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:33:05 -!- lnostdal [~Lars@218.80-202-49.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:33:31 -!- kooll [~samson_t@sp1.kooll.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:33:37 koollman [~samson_t@sp1.kooll.info] has joined #lisp 14:33:49 -!- TeMPOraL [u463@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ayblohhjqocqlngs] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 14:33:56 Any SLIME buffs in here willing to help me out a little bit? 14:33:56 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-165-213.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:33:56 lnostdal [~Lars@218.80-202-49.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 14:33:56 euphidime [u178@gateway/web/irccloud.com/session] has joined #lisp 14:33:56 TeMPOraL [u463@gateway/web/irccloud.com/session] has joined #lisp 14:33:56 -!- euphidime [u178@gateway/web/irccloud.com/session] has quit [Changing host] 14:33:57 euphidime [u178@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-swoowlyawfarnsln] has joined #lisp 14:33:57 -!- TeMPOraL [u463@gateway/web/irccloud.com/session] has quit [Changing host] 14:33:57 TeMPOraL [u463@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gsjehoovakfdanjs] has joined #lisp 14:34:36 adamvh: What's up? 14:34:52 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 14:34:58 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:34:59 My SLIME is now failing to work with CCL 14:35:03 murilasso [~murilasso@201.53.207.139] has joined #lisp 14:35:23 CCL 1.6, OS X 10.5.8, latest SLIME from Aquamacs Emacs website 14:35:33 with the error message 14:36:05 Error: SWANK-BACKEND:ADD-FD-HANDLER not implemented 14:36:20 I was talking to Bill St. Clair over in #ccl 14:36:33 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-32-15-183.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:36:42 and he says that CCL _does_ implement add-fd-handler 14:36:47 I wonder if the situation would be improved by using the latest slime instead of the one that comes with Aquamacs. 14:36:55 ace4016 [~ace4016@adsl-32-15-183.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:57 I also wonder how old Aquamacs's slime is. 14:37:07 -!- kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 14:37:11 Aquamacs maintains an installer of the latest Slime 14:37:15 i.e. it bundles an old one 14:37:33 but they package a mac installer of cvs snapshots 14:37:47 I think it had "2011" in the filename when I downloaded it 14:38:04 so I downloaded and installed that 14:38:07 but maybe it didn't take 14:38:09 aerique: I think I fixed that last bug in parsing floating-point values 14:38:15 xvilka [~xvilka@109.170.106.227] has joined #lisp 14:38:38 kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has joined #lisp 14:38:42 is there any way to query slime for what version I have? 14:39:12 adamvh: the value of slime-protocol-version 14:39:29 adamvh: M-x slime-changelog-date 14:39:45 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 14:40:05 hi! i'm going to start implementing lisp on new platform/OS, so i'm found initial impelementation of 10 rules McCrthy http://nakkaya.com/code/misc/lisp.c 14:40:19 but it's too small to begin extend it 14:40:38 xvilka: Why are you going to do that? 14:40:38 I get 2010-12-10 14:40:45 and lisp500 looks like too obfuscated 14:40:45 Xach: ok, i fixed the 5 bugs which were occurring on successive loads, by adding :load-toplevel to the eval-when form in the beginning 14:41:16 Xach: bcoz no one lisp platforms available on it 14:41:19 well, not really beginning 14:41:37 brodo [~brodo@p5B024416.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:41:40 aidalgol [aidan@2002:453d:f72::1337:3] has joined #lisp 14:41:41 jdz: Oh, cool. Can you update the official darcs? 14:41:46 for the SharpL reader 14:41:53 sellout [~greg@64.134.66.214] has joined #lisp 14:42:04 Xach: ugh, darcs. i don't know how to operate it... 14:42:17 except darcs pull that is 14:42:22 xvilka: do you want to learn how to implement lisp or do you want to make a usable lisp available on that platform? 14:42:37 second 14:42:54 adamvh: do you set *communication-style* to :fd-hanlder in ~/.swank.lisp? 14:43:00 xvilka: then choose either common lisp or scheme to implement. and use one of the existing open source implementations. 14:43:25 xvilka: clisp and ecl are relatively easy to port. 14:43:26 xvilka: this wouldn't be a Siemens microcontroller for a centrifuge, would it? 14:43:44 lol 14:43:45 splittist: "destroyed by alien technology"? 14:43:46 tusker [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 14:43:47 nope 14:44:07 stassats: yes I think so 14:44:12 jdz: I guess your fix doesn't help me a whole lot, then. :) 14:44:14 i've found that ecl now more active in development? 14:44:20 adamvh: there's your problem 14:44:23 xvilka: right. 14:44:27 Xach: help you with what? 14:44:36 stassats: I believe it is necessary for the lispbuilder-sdl bindings 14:44:49 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:44:49 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:44:55 jdz: Reducing the number of test failures in the official iterate. 14:44:56 thx 14:44:58 Xach: the one test failure seems to be expected actually, if i understand the comment correctly (the bug/walk.2 test){ 14:45:05 stassats: Bill St. Clair also seems to think that CCL actually does implement it 14:45:08 Xach: how many do you get? 14:45:21 adamvh: swank-ccl doesn't implement it 14:45:27 jdz: I get one, but a guy who is complaining to me gets six. 14:45:33 -!- xvilka [~xvilka@109.170.106.227] has left #lisp 14:45:37 stassats: You know this for sure? 14:46:07 -!- sellout [~greg@64.134.66.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:46:10 Xach: well, i can get either 1 or 6 14:46:15 see for yourself 14:46:39 He might be referring to swank-openmcl? 14:47:42 where would it live? 14:48:13 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16] has joined #lisp 14:48:52 Xach: hmm, and according to another comment in the test file: «Tests for bugs. when these start failing, I have done something right (-:» 14:49:09 Xach: so the one failure i get is actually a failure to fail 14:49:28 adamvh: in the source checkout, there should be swank-ccl.lisp and swank-openmcl.lisp 14:49:35 the former obsoletes the latter 14:49:48 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:50:04 swank-openmcl is no longer present 14:50:44 Yeah, I can't grep fd-handler in that source 14:50:50 so it seems like it isn't there 14:51:08 bummer 14:52:07 can't you use ccl::call-in-initial-process? 14:53:00 stassats: I'm sorry I don't really know what you're referring to - I'm just starting to use CCL because I want to use Cocoa - I've pretty much only used SBCL up to this point 14:53:02 sellout [~greg@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 14:53:16 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:53:41 Xach: ok, that comment seems to be out of sync with the bug/walk.2 test 14:53:52 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 14:54:04 adamvh: i was referring to "I believe it is necessary for the lispbuilder-sdl bindings" 14:54:43 -!- tusker [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:54:56 stassats: Ah, OK. I guess I'll have to look into that. 14:55:11 beach [~user@116.118.72.132] has joined #lisp 14:55:30 Good evening everyone! 14:56:15 Hi, beach! 14:56:19 good afternoon beach! 14:56:35 fe[nl]ix: did you see nyef's *read-default-float-format* remark a while back? 14:57:12 aerique: lichtblau fixed that 14:57:21 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 14:57:29 fe[nl]ix: alright 14:57:49 please test it 14:58:04 if there aren't bugs left, I'd like to make another release tonight 15:02:10 Ah, SLIME has loaded - thanks all. 15:07:03 Joreji [~thomas@75-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:08:16 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.61.203.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 15:10:46 -!- ``Erik_ is now known as ``Erik 15:15:12 -!- redline6` [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:16:13 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:17:47 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@pool-173-69-160-222.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 15:20:53 -!- Beeff [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:21:47 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:22:00 yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 15:24:15 gumpa [~max@p5DE8C707.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:17 hi guys 15:24:44 Hello gumpa 15:25:07 bsod1 [~osa1@188.56.207.224] has joined #lisp 15:25:18 gumpa: I don't recognize your nick. Are you new here? 15:25:32 I have been thinking about parallelism/threads recently, and I wonder if file i/o parrallelized 15:25:32 leo2007 [~leo@222.79.156.19] has joined #lisp 15:25:38 is* 15:25:57 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:25:59 beach: hi, uhm, im a newb, but I been heere, with several nicks 15:26:07 OK. 15:26:10 tritchey [~tritchey@205.233.9.181] has joined #lisp 15:26:44 luis: do you feel like using your awesome powers for good? 15:26:55 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@ip22-159.200.109.crimea.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:26:56 heh 15:27:13 specifically: I wrote a custom database, that obviously needs to function concurrently, what do I have to do in order to not break my files? 15:27:39 like what happens when two threads try to write to a file simultaneously 15:27:59 gumpa: you need to lock your files. 15:28:10 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:28:16 gumpa: the sqlite source code is very readable and deals with issues like that. postgresql too. 15:28:28 Phoodus [~foo@ip68-231-47-70.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:28:51 -!- tvaalen_ [~r@terminal.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:29:12 What if the files are values rather than tables? 15:29:36 gumpa: use standalone locks. 15:29:46 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn2-31.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 15:29:53 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.61.203.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 15:30:23 also, you likely don't want to use one file per value unless your values are giant, if you want any sort of performance. 15:30:24 What I do is basically just storing printed values in a file each organized in directory trees 15:30:38 foom: step two is caching values 15:30:47 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:30:53 milanj [~milanj_@109-92-211-157.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 15:30:56 gumpa: how large are the databases that you want to handle? 15:30:56 okay if you don't have frequent writes 15:31:42 iwillig [~iwillig@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 15:31:44 Just to be clear: Im not making money with this, I am writing experimental systems for my own use. 15:32:01 *H4ns* was not worried 15:32:16 *Xach* turns off his timer for billing purposes 15:32:18 H4ns: I guess small to medium 15:32:31 gumpa: small, medium, can you express it in number of records? 15:32:44 I want to use it for bulletin boards, wikis, permission managment, etc 15:33:01 -!- sacho [~sacho@90.154.201.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:33:02 well tiny amounts 15:33:12 if you're writing with any amount of frequency, you'll run into serious scaling issues if you use things like fsync to ensure your data actually hits disk. 15:33:46 and if you don't use fsync, the kernel assumes you didn't want that file and will summarily delete it upon unexpected reboot. 15:33:49 silenius [~silenus@p4FC239A5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:33:55 (it's a feature.) 15:34:16 gumpa: rather than locking and multi-process file access, you could use a database server that caches all data in memory and logs changes. 15:34:17 or half the file 15:34:27 I dont need fast writes 15:34:49 CrazyEddy [~annalism@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 15:34:57 has there been any explanation why you can't fsync a single file? 15:35:02 you can. 15:35:06 Its really more like echo "hello" > foo.txt than facebook 15:35:13 foom: do tell more. 15:35:30 grouzen [~grouzen@ip22-159.200.109.crimea.com] has joined #lisp 15:35:35 fsync takes an fd argument. That will sync a single file. Except on ext3 because it doesn't support that. 15:35:43 ah, I see 15:35:49 You only need locks in the case of contention. 15:35:56 tvaalen [~r@terminal.se] has joined #lisp 15:36:32 You could avoid locks by having one set of processes write to a directory, and another process copy those files out when they're done and merge them for use. 15:36:47 or just use sqlite and forget the whole thing. :) 15:36:48 foom: ah, sure. many file systems can do it, but ext3 can't. 15:36:58 I had terrible experiences with sqlite 15:37:02 -!- sellout [~greg@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:37:06 In posix systems renaming a file is atomic, which can help. 15:37:22 (Except for nfs) 15:37:27 gumpa: Dead horse head in your bed? 15:37:33 Zhivago: unless your machine crashes, in which case ext4 more likely than not eats both copies of the file. :) 15:37:42 Xach: locked databases 15:37:49 probably punbb's fault tho 15:37:49 There's always gratuitous fsyncery. 15:38:03 Although rename doesn't make a copy. 15:38:17 sqlite is awesome, dunno why you had terrible experiences. 15:38:40 especially if you don't need high concurrency in writing. 15:39:10 I dont even like sql 15:39:18 thats not my idea of data organization 15:39:23 I want directories 15:39:29 files 15:39:35 stuff like that 15:40:07 its thats slow that its slow, but at least it makes sense to my simple brain 15:40:36 wow 15:40:59 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.79.156.19] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:40:59 my typing got worse! 15:43:10 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:43:16 gumpa: you could take a look at safecat... http://jeenyus.net/linux/software/safecat.html 15:43:30 not sure if that's what you need/want.. but might be worth looking at 15:43:51 Good evening, I've got a set of sockets. Some are in close_wait, and I'd like to know how to detect which ones are in that state. LW6 on Linux. 15:47:21 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.137.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:48:59 chrnybo: lsof 15:49:04 or netstat 15:50:03 pattern: not really my case, but thanks anyways 15:50:33 I guess I will got with a single thread that will do all the writing, and everything else just works against caches 15:50:49 tcr1: Thanks, but something inside of lisp? 15:50:49 <3 relational theory 15:50:50 s/got/go 15:51:30 naba [~chatzilla@122.164.30.230] has joined #lisp 15:53:11 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16] has quit [Quit: rpg] 15:53:15 chrnybo: If you don't know the accessor for the socket's state, one way is to fish out the connection tuples from netstat and match those with the Lisp sockets (assuming you can access src/dst ip/port of a lisp socket) 15:53:15 also have you tried APROPOS? and looked at the documentation? 15:53:57 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:55:21 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:57:10 tcr1: I can get to address and port of the socket by calling socket-address of the tcp stream, and thus match it up with the host and port of netstat's output. 15:58:14 Adlai_ [~leif@static-71-249-194-107.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:33 tcr1: I looked at Lispworks documentation of the COMM package at say http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw60/LW/html/lw-548.htm 16:00:07 guinness [~guinness@216.252.75.210] has joined #lisp 16:00:29 Hello 16:00:55 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-92-211-157.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:01:18 quick question: anyone know where to find an example of sb-bsd-sockets' local-socket being used for IPC? 16:01:29 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-203-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:03:00 swank, the backend of slime, does it 16:03:41 wouldn't say it serves as a good example though 16:03:44 what concrete difficulties are you facing, or what questions? 16:03:49 tcr1, I've looked at swank, I couldn't find it using local-socket, it does use sb-bsd-sockets 16:04:16 tcr1, basically, I can't quite find how to establish a connection to /tmp/example-ipc-socket 16:04:20 sellout [~greg@64.134.66.214] has joined #lisp 16:04:27 Maybe I'm mistaken and swank doesn't actually use unix sockets 16:04:34 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:04:45 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:04:45 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 16:04:52 -!- Adlai_ [~leif@static-71-249-194-107.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:04:53 -!- Joreji [~thomas@75-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:04:55 tcr1, it seems that swank opens a port even for local communication 16:05:06 milanj [~milanj_@178-223-151-190.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 16:05:36 tcr1, should I try using something more documented such as IOLib? 16:06:37 Joreji [~thomas@75-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:06:48 Blkt` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-227-177.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 16:07:06 guinness: it's not much different from any other kind of socket. you bind and listen on the server side, connect on the client side. 16:07:43 (sb-bsd-sockets:socket-connect my-socket "/tmp/example-ip-socket") iirc. 16:07:50 ipc, rather. 16:08:08 Xach, thx, that's just what I needed :-D 16:08:11 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:09:36 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-34-27-243.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:10:44 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 16:12:00 ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 16:12:56 -!- Joreji [~thomas@75-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:13:01 v0|d [~user@213.232.33.243] has joined #lisp 16:13:36 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 16:15:03 -!- brodo [~brodo@p5B024416.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: brodo] 16:16:45 leo2007 [~leo@59.57.98.29] has joined #lisp 16:19:21 Joreji [~thomas@75-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:21:51 question: file-name or filename? 16:22:29 brodo [~brodo@p5B024416.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:34 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 16:22:37 filename is more popular I believe but both are fine 16:23:08 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:23:12 I'd say it depends on if it's an accessor or not. :-P 16:23:44 (A filename seems to be a thing unto itself, while a file-name is a property of a file.) 16:24:59 guinness: thanks. nyef: that resonates somewhat. This is something I can never keep straight - if I define file-name I will try to call/access filename 70% of the time, and vice versa... 16:25:07 -!- Blkt` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-227-177.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:25:59 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 16:26:22 Hi [~Adium@he190123.dsl.fsr.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:47 -!- chrnybo [~user@148.122.202.244] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:26:48 -!- Hi is now known as Guest24297 16:28:22 -!- naba [~chatzilla@122.164.30.230] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014]] 16:29:43 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@213.55.131.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:30:26 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 16:31:15 -!- az [~az@p5796CD55.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 16:31:23 balooga [~00u4440@pool-173-55-252-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:47 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host 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[c14be4fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.75.228.252] has joined #lisp 17:40:13 Guh. Eight lines of commentary for two lines of code change, plus about twenty lines of commit message. 17:40:16 I need a coffee break. 17:41:12 -!- sm` [s@78.157.15.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:42:02 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@rrcs-70-60-193-169.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:43:06 -!- balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.64.22] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:43:15 balooga [~00u4440@pool-173-55-252-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:18 -!- balooga [~00u4440@pool-173-55-252-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:43:55 sellout [~greg@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 17:44:40 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:45:40 sellout- [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:14 -!- sellout [~greg@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:48:14 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 17:50:47 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@213.55.131.17] has quit 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18:52:41 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 18:53:18 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.142.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:54:23 js0000 [~js@67.208.188.68] has joined #lisp 18:54:37 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:55:03 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.189.235] has joined #lisp 18:56:29 eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 18:58:22 -!- js0000 is now known as js0000_ 18:59:43 -!- js0000_ [~js@67.208.188.68] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:01:01 -!- drdo [~user@2001:690:2100:1b:226:8ff:fef7:3d9e] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:01:02 js0000 [~js@67.208.188.68] has joined #lisp 19:01:23 -!- RaykOn [~user@2001:690:2100:1b:3615:9eff:fe97:888b] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:02:07 -!- jweiss__ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:02:08 -!- rien [~unkanon@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:02:27 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:02:31 rien [~unkanon@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 19:06:14 jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:07:53 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:09:58 accel [~accel@unaffiliated/accel] has joined #lisp 19:10:01 what is the main weakness of CMUCL ? 19:10:13 SBCL 19:10:26 it's weak to water 19:10:28 the more I look at languages; the more I feel like I want a scheme/lisp that allows for (1) native code generatio nand (2) read time macros and (3) option for typed scheme 19:10:33 lure it to a river to drown it 19:10:34 stassats / Landr please explain 19:10:35 mephisto_ [~mephisto@dyn-166.pool2.cable.TORON12.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 19:10:41 just joking :P 19:10:56 accel: sbcl is a fork from cmucl that allows easy bootstrapping and porting to other platforms. 19:10:58 accel: all efforts are directed to SBCL, a cmucl fork 19:11:11 so cmucl's meain weakness is that it's dead, and people use SBCL ? 19:11:12 accel: not many people remain who work on cmucl (I think rtoy sometimes does some work on it) 19:11:20 accel: pretty much, yeah 19:11:35 Yeah, CMUCL's primary weakness right now is its maintainership. 19:11:36 cmucl isn't dead, it's just progresses more slowly 19:11:41 accel: the death sentence for a platform on cmucl used to be "I don't think binaries are available" (: 19:12:01 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-203-15.wbs.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:12:07 That said, given SBCL's commit activity this past couple months, perhaps we shouldn't throw stones. 19:12:14 mascotte_ [p.scott@AClermont-Ferrand-651-1-18-189.w86-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:12:19 i blame holidays 19:12:22 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:12:31 looking at SBCL's FAQ -- it sounds like building CMUCL requiring slaughtering and sacrficing lambs; is tha ttrue? 19:12:41 I blame myself, in part, because of the tail-local-call stuff. 19:13:06 accel: It is more difficult than SBCL. 19:13:17 accel: it requires a bunch of knowledge about the system and changes between your host lisp and the source you're building 19:13:33 accel: also, I don't think there are a lot of scripts that automate steps you need to take 19:13:43 sbcl's make.sh is way too convenient (: 19:13:53 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:13:54 I thought that there was a build script for cmucl? 19:14:03 I should ask a more general question. If I want a lisp that supports (1) native code generation (2) attaching types to functions / compile time type checking -- then what should I be using? 19:14:11 SBCL 19:14:12 nyef: ah, it's been too long for me (: 19:14:13 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-13-155.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:14:46 -!- mascotte [mascotte__@AClermont-Ferrand-651-1-23-249.w86-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:15:32 stassats: what typing does SBCL have? 19:15:40 accel: If you're using SBCL, please be aware that 1.0.44 and 1.0.45 have a nasty bug with tail-calls. 19:15:55 err, tailcails are kind of important 19:15:57 Hrm... Maybe not 1.0.44, but certainly 1.0.45. 19:15:59 What's 1.0.44's bug? 19:16:04 how are there bugs in tail calls? 19:16:17 xraycat [~Miranda@brln-4db96fd5.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:18 *Xach* hasn't had trouble building the Quicklisp world with 1.0.44 or post 1.0.45.whatever 19:16:19 ocharles: strong 19:16:34 Xach: Yeah, 1.0.44 is clean, the bug was introduced in the 1.0.44.x series. 19:16:58 accel: It's to do with lifetime analysis and the new dynamic-extent closure representation stuff, as of 1.0.44.15. 19:17:02 http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Foreign-Function-Interface <-- in sectio n8.2, are the FBCL FFI type and the C type laid out the same way in memory ? 19:17:56 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.56.207.224] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:18:19 accel: ALIEN struct types are typically laid out the same as C structs, but to be absolutely certain people often use SB-GROVEL to persuade the C compiler to cough up the field widths and offsets directly. 19:18:37 Or they use CFFI. A lot of people use CFFI. 19:20:07 -!- Guest65353 is now known as pkhuong 19:20:13 suppose I have in C: struct Vec3 { float x, y, z; }; struct Quat { float w, x, y, z ; } ; Vec3 v_arr[100]; Vec3 v_ans[100]; Quat q_arr[100]; and I want: v_ans[i] = rotate(q_arr[i], v_arr[i]); -- then, is there a way to tell SBCL to allocate stuff so that v_arr, q_arr, and v_ans are conginuous blocks of memory ? 19:20:29 i.e. to tell SBCl to lay stuff out like C would lay it out as a continuous block in memory 19:20:52 sure. using alien array types 19:21:06 accel: apart from going through alien types, or performing the flattening by hand, no. 19:21:47 a column-wise layout is sometimes better suited to modern machines. 19:23:57 sm` [~s@77.28.120.143] has joined #lisp 19:24:04 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:25:44 pkhuong, what? how 19:26:04 cache lines are horizontal 19:26:29 yvdriess: Consider access patterns over the cache lines, and over memory regions larger than the cache. 19:27:01 rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 19:27:04 yvdriess: and the point is that transposing the data so that columns are horizontal can be beneficial. 19:27:30 yeah ok 19:27:32 hence the sometimes 19:27:43 but completely depends on the access pattern 19:28:08 but there are different orders, l ike z-order 19:28:21 s/l ike/like 19:30:04 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-13-155.iburst.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:30:10 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Quit: bye] 19:30:20 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw81ffe0a5.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:30:43 yvdriess: we're talking about a vector of structs, not a matrix, here. 19:31:07 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-155-195-23.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:50 got carried away a bit 19:32:51 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:33:17 -!- mephisto_ [~mephisto@dyn-166.pool2.cable.TORON12.iasl.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:33:24 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 19:37:45 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:37:49 az [~az@p5796CD55.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:26 -!- accel [~accel@unaffiliated/accel] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:44:54 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-158-125.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:45:11 Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-158-125.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:45:41 -!- Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-158-125.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:45:44 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053011014.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 19:46:19 balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 19:47:01 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 19:47:49 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 19:48:00 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:48:56 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:53:40 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 19:56:56 tcleval_ [bb6ee182@gateway/web/freenode/ip.187.110.225.130] has joined #lisp 19:57:03 hi 19:57:22 -!- joeygibson [~joeygibso@208.52.139.50] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:59:48 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:03:22 -!- rien [~unkanon@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:03:48 rien [~unkanon@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 20:05:07 -!- Joreji [~thomas@75-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:05:34 hi 20:07:17 -!- serichsen [~user@switch1.elmi.uni-bonn.de] has quit [Quit: Good night!] 20:08:54 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:09:05 mahata [~mahata@e0109-49-132-2-86.uqwimax.jp] has joined #lisp 20:10:09 ttb [~frinnn@i59F61AA9.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:10:32 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 20:11:19 tcr1 [~tcr@213.55.131.17] has joined #lisp 20:13:51 -!- _ism [~frinnn@i59F6135C.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:14:56 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:15:04 francogrex [~user@109.130.16.118] has joined #lisp 20:17:11 -!- cheez [~Adium@76-10-147-73.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:18:37 -!- tcleval_ [bb6ee182@gateway/web/freenode/ip.187.110.225.130] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:20:02 -!- Guest24297 [~Adium@he190123.dsl.fsr.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:21:31 Does slime (or anybody) have a search for whole lisp symbol function? I.e. a regular expression that defines a lisp symbol (regardless of how it's used in the CL code, symbol, function, etc.) that I can use in rgrep and find-grep-dired. For example, I would like to search for "foo" and not see "foo-bar". 20:22:53 -!- leo2007 [~leo@59.57.98.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:23:12 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 20:24:54 tcleval_ [bb6ee182@gateway/web/freenode/ip.187.110.225.130] has joined #lisp 20:25:06 #abcl 20:25:09 oops 20:27:05 how do I decalre the types inside a loop like: (loop for i from 1 to n sum i) ? where to cecalre that i (and n) are fixnum? 20:27:12 -!- silenius [~silenus@p4FC239A5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:28:13 my god! s/cecalre/declare 20:28:35 francogrex: of-type 20:28:36 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 20:28:42 for i fixnum 20:28:45 francogrex: also, never declare as "fixnum" 20:29:08 LiamH: maybe find-grep instead, which asks you for a regex. and i think the regex for full word is \b 20:29:28 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:29:49 felideon: right, but \b breaks on #\-, so that it will hit foo-bar when I want foo. 20:31:17 -!- bhattara [~bhattara@infao6901.rg1.mpi-sb.mpg.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:31:32 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 20:32:51 LiamH: hmm I see. well the symbol would probably be followed by whitespace, right? 20:32:57 so \b\s ? 20:33:32 I don't know regexes that well. 20:33:32 felideon: right, or maybe not, maybe a right paren, or a newline. 20:33:44 hmm true :( 20:33:54 I was hoping someone already had a ready-made regex. 20:33:59 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:35:32 Sorry. 20:35:44 the Allegro IDE has a Find Definitions dialog :D 20:35:47 felideon: no worries 20:36:05 finding definitions isn't a problem in slime 20:36:53 paradoja [~paradoja@acceso-cmp174-86.lpa.idec.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:47 I guess any character marked as "constituent" in Figure 2-6, or any character at all if it's surrounded by | |, counts as making up a symbol. 20:38:59 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@211.177.88.67] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:39:01 Oops, Figure 2-7 20:40:51 Wow, you can put a backspace into a token? That seems ... wrong. 20:41:36 *LiamH* imagines APL-style overprinting names in CL 20:42:27 adeht: ok 20:43:20 LiamH: Common Lisp is not a terminal emulator. 20:43:57 -!- tcleval_ [bb6ee182@gateway/web/freenode/ip.187.110.225.130] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:43:59 backspace is a character? 20:44:01 lol 20:44:42 Of course it is! Ascii code 8. 20:44:54 the antagonist! 20:52:09 also "rubout" 20:52:57 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 20:53:18 Whose ASCII is easy to remember, all bits set, so that you can press the backspace button on the tape punch, press rubout, and it punches all the holes, thereby removing the character that was there. 20:53:24 *LiamH* shows his age 20:53:29 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-254-159.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:48 yvan eht nioj 20:54:49 LiamH: well, just remember that in 20-30 years, all those clojure hackers will be showing their age too ... 20:55:21 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 20:55:25 LiamH: that is a way cool factoid! 20:55:31 *LiamH* wonders what language Krystof is speaking 20:55:46 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@pool-173-69-160-222.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 20:55:52 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-158-247.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:55:53 Liamh: backwards 20:55:55 Simpsons language 20:56:00 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:56:05 ah 20:56:29 LiamH: continues to show his age ... 20:56:34 *js0000* chuckles ... 20:56:36 Jesdisciple: backspace is not a character, it's a control code. Unfortunately, under the pression of languages such as C or emacs lisp who don't make the distinction between characters and integers, it's usual to define a character that has the same code as the control codes. 20:56:49 eerode [~bryce@184-206-228-18.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:51 lonesomerider [~lonesomer@host-93-182-3-197.real.kvidex.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:57 -!- rmarianski is now known as rmar|mtng 20:57:00 Jesdisciple: so there's a #\Backspace character. 20:57:49 -!- albino [~albino@69.12.222.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:58:03 can anyone recommend some code that is exceptionally well structured and demonstrates a beautiful lisp style? 20:58:14 js0000: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdSHeKfZG7c 20:58:29 albino [~albino@69.12.222.214] has joined #lisp 20:58:32 pattern: I don't know about beautiful, but i found reading the source to cl-ppcre very educational. 20:58:32 pattern: code in PAIP is good. 20:58:52 pattern: It uses a lot of different features of CL to do something interesting, and do it fast. 20:59:01 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:59:20 pjb: yes, that's what I meant 20:59:41 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-158-247.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:00:17 thanks.. i'll look at those 21:00:38 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:00:42 (knew it was such, it just always seems odd to me - maybe even a little odder than a Delete 'character') 21:00:48 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: mstevens] 21:02:33 -!- paradoja [~paradoja@acceso-cmp174-86.lpa.idec.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:03:48 I think that the realities of large-project development run directly counter to "exceptionally well structured". 21:04:36 -!- joast [~rick@CPE-76-178-178-72.natnow.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:05:13 Or /tend/ to run counter, at least. 21:05:16 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 21:05:29 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-218.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:32 really? i'd have expected the smaller projects to be cobbled together any old way, and large projects to be clearly structured and modularized 21:06:03 for larger projects it's easy to lose your way and get confused without clear structure 21:06:35 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203074432]] 21:06:43 while for smaller projects it's easy to keep the whole thing organized in your mind, even when it's poorly organized in the source 21:06:52 pattern: hahahahahaha 21:07:00 evidently you haven't worked on large codebases 21:07:00 Mmm... The smaller projects can "get away" with poor structure more easily, but it's also far easier to improve their structure. 21:07:14 rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 21:07:48 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:07:50 -!- balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:07:51 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-254-159.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 21:07:52 chances are, your stab at perfectly designing a small thing upfront is more likely to succeed than a similar attempt at large project 21:08:23 i'm not sure how many small projects aim to be perfectly designed, though.. 21:08:27 then again, when you realize your design isn't perfect, it is simpler to adjust with a smaller project 21:09:03 One compiler, 147681 lines of code, 292 files, two CL packages. Good luck figuring out which bit goes where. :-/ 21:09:12 small projects tend to be hacked any which way in a weekend or at night over a couple of weeks.. 21:09:41 big projects too, only it's more than a couple of weeks 21:10:10 anyway, many things start small 21:10:11 I find that small projects grow structure as they need it... And large projects without structure are a massive pain to shore up. 21:10:13 but then grow 21:10:18 -!- CrazyEddy [~annalism@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:12:04 write (main) program as though all functions exist already, then actually start making the functions 21:13:14 -!- kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: kclifton] 21:14:59 -!- nasstop [~cjn0496@eedept-4150adiml6.rit.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:17:17 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 21:19:25 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:20:35 churib_ [~churib_@dslc-082-082-220-177.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:25 -!- mascotte_ [p.scott@AClermont-Ferrand-651-1-18-189.w86-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 21:21:47 joast [~rick@CPE-76-178-178-72.natnow.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:24:15 large projects require refactoring, stepping back and seeing how the initial thoughts of the "clean structure" have changed as it was solidified, then making a new "clean structure" that is better suited to the current state of the system 21:24:26 which then cycles indefinitely 21:24:47 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:25:22 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:25:35 however, if you don't have that cycle, you're left with code that's locked in to old assumptions, with a completely rewrite being the only possibility to break out of it 21:25:46 -ly 21:26:13 -!- churib_ [~churib_@dslc-082-082-220-177.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 21:27:23 pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.121.191] has joined #lisp 21:27:40 -!- lonesomerider [~lonesomer@host-93-182-3-197.real.kvidex.net] has quit [Quit: lonesomerider] 21:28:37 bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.173.11] has joined #lisp 21:28:43 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d0038d6.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:45 Not the only possibility. 21:28:53 Rarely ever the only possibility. 21:29:10 In fact, a tempting, but usually bad, option. 21:29:27 egomosis [~egomosis@cpe-76-188-33-45.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:29:33 well, I guess the "bolt-on" approach is used there a lot as well, due to the expense of a rewrite 21:29:50 Really, if you don't have that cycle, and you have such a code base, the thing to do is to /start/ the cycle. 21:30:32 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.80.150] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:30:39 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 21:30:42 it is very difficult to do that when a large project is a tangled web of interdependent assumptions 21:31:05 I'm not saying that it isn't, but it's typically a heck of a lot better than tossing it and starting over. 21:31:12 but I guess it would fall somewhere between "trend towards architecture" and "slow rewrite" 21:31:26 CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 21:31:55 it's basically exactly the same as cleaning your house or maintaining you car. Don't do it for a very long time, and it sucks when you finally get around to it 21:32:06 Yup. 21:32:24 Anyway, I'm gone for a bit... Maybe half an hour. 21:32:40 nyef: actually I would say the larger the thing is you're stuck on, the more likely you need to toss it 21:32:48 modules avoid that problem 21:32:49 *Phoodus* erects a memorial, and tears it down in half an hour 21:32:55 -!- mahata [~mahata@e0109-49-132-2-86.uqwimax.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:33:06 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 21:33:29 Jesdisciple: the problem with "toss it", is that you have no progress on your running system for months or years before the new version is ready 21:33:37 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:33:47 -!- egomosis [~egomosis@cpe-76-188-33-45.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:34:32 by extension, that's the problem with not using modules 21:35:37 but if the module API doesn't do what your new module needs to do... 21:36:12 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.80.31] has joined #lisp 21:36:15 I think the main point is abstraction, not just one implementation abstraction which happens to be modules 21:36:26 ..implementation of abstraction... 21:36:50 valium97582 [~daniel@189-47-118-97.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 21:39:06 Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-102-74.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:39:51 cheez [~Adium@76-10-147-73.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 21:41:25 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A7DDB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:43:10 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-254-159.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:20 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-218.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 21:43:29 Phoodus: I don't think I could build anything sizable without keeping the pieces self-contained 21:45:06 wanderingelf [4817e03d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.23.224.61] has joined #lisp 21:49:04 Good morning everyone! 21:49:10 G'morn! 21:49:34 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@213.55.131.17] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:49:34 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:49:40 mornin', beach 21:49:58 would you rather have a lisp implementation that is 100% ansi compliant but does not have the other bells and whistles or the reverse (a lotta bells and whistles but pôor compliance) ? 21:50:46 -!- rmar|mtng is now known as rmarianski 21:50:46 -!- iwillig [~iwillig@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:50:48 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-102-74.wbs.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:51:40 *francogrex* is obviously bored 21:53:26 I'd rather have both (-: 21:54:03 what does poor compliance mean, anyway? that it crashes on otherwise safe code? 21:54:17 or just that it doesn't have nil arrays as subtypes of string? 21:54:33 more the latter 21:57:32 like it does it's own thing and takes no heed of the specs 21:58:10 sounds like it wouldn't really be a lisp implementation eh? 21:58:30 Good docs are important. If that means that you should expect it to comply with documentation for some standard, then I would very much like that. 21:58:51 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 21:58:54 Also: I'm lazy, and probably wouldn't want to learn what would effectively be its own language 21:59:19 -!- wanderingelf [4817e03d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.23.224.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:59:29 wanderingelf [4817e03d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.23.224.61] has joined #lisp 22:00:19 -!- xraycat [~Miranda@brln-4db96fd5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: xraycat] 22:01:17 yeah, same opinion here 22:01:21 tcr1 [~tcr@213.55.131.17] has joined #lisp 22:01:46 -!- pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.121.191] has left #lisp 22:02:35 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:02:57 shard [~shard@dslb-084-059-007-146.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:13 there was some emacs shortcut to invoke profiling with slime or something like that...? 22:05:30 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 22:05:32 -!- moah [~gnu@dslb-188-109-196-214.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 22:09:05 got it: M-x slime-toggle-profile-fdefinition 22:09:50 anyone understand why sbcl would just die if I do (cffi:load-foreign-library '(:framework "CoreFoundation")) in slime-repl but works fine on the command line? (same environment variables) 22:10:15 all I get from sbcl is: Process inferior-lisp trace/BPT trap 22:11:11 cheez: multithreading issue? 22:11:30 p_l|backup: good guess. If I do it in *inferior-lisp* it works fine 22:11:55 cheez: you have to do it in the main thread, yeah. 22:12:16 luis: ah, that would be it. Is there a less annoying way than doing it in *inferior-lisp* ? 22:12:32 (in-main-thread (do-cffi-stuff)) 22:12:34 :D 22:12:36 yeah, I heard long time ago that some core Cocoa libs were very unsafe in handling of threads 22:12:54 -!- shard [~shard@dslb-084-059-007-146.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:13:49 I wonder if swank has something for that 22:14:04 cheez: either load-foreign-library does something like that or SBCL does 22:14:38 luis something like "do this in main thread?" Definitely load-foreign-library doesn't do it 22:15:39 cheez: I meant s/does/should do/ 22:16:13 rsynnott [rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has joined #lisp 22:17:37 luis: ah, ok. Well if I figure it out I'll submit something 22:17:40 interrupting the main thread unconditionally to load foreign libraries feels fishy though. 22:18:04 totally fishy but doesn't interrupt-thread wait for a safe point? 22:18:20 Joreji [~thomas@75-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:20:24 -!- k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:20:33 perhaps CFFI could have that behaviour for OSX frameworks only. That might be less intrusive. 22:21:29 yes please 22:21:29 even just under slime is enough. It's just annoying to switch to *inferior-lisp* to load libraries 22:21:34 You could probably do something in terms of interrupt-thread in a pinch. 22:21:47 otherwise for apps, I think you shouldn't 22:22:58 nyef: yeah, sure. My question is: is it a good idea in general? 22:23:03 nope 22:23:06 if I may answer :D 22:24:05 cheez: well, CCL's repl thread is not the main thread for instance. So, they added this fixup to their load-foreign-library. 22:24:11 No, in general it's a completely stupid idea, but needs must as the devil^W^WSteve Jobs drives. 22:25:44 luis: interesting. I thought it would be problematic but maybe not 22:26:08 cheez: so, do you feel like adding an interrupt-main-thread to each of the CFFI backends? :-) 22:26:31 luis: if you don't mind depending on bordeaux-threads :D 22:26:56 _8david [~user@port-92-195-17-116.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:27:34 I wonder if the order of threads in bt:all-threads is dependable (last entry is initial thread?) 22:28:37 meh, I'd rather not depend on bordeaux-threads. 22:29:06 timepilot [~timepilot@66.71.230.223] has joined #lisp 22:29:10 -!- lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-58-170.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:30:10 I'm just writing a wrapper atm luis 22:30:39 (when (find-package 'swank) do the business in main thread) 22:30:40 :D 22:31:04 given an array type, can i find the element-type without making an instance? 22:31:10 cheez: You lose! Swank can be loaded without it running a server. 22:31:41 nyef: I don't care, I don't do that :D 22:32:10 And you have to marshal to the initial thread whenever there are multiple threads, not just when swank is running. 22:32:17 hm? 22:32:21 how do you mean 22:32:28 oh yes 22:32:42 but what I'm saying is: I only care about it when slime is running, so the above is just a shortcut for me 22:32:59 Fair enough. 22:33:16 You could always marshal to the initial thread anyway, if you wanted... 22:33:42 balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 22:33:45 ah... upgraded-array-element-type seems to kind of do it. 22:33:51 the more I think about it, the more it seems like something sbcl should do. 22:34:01 nyef: I don't want to because I think it's wrong for me to do that in general 22:34:13 I *should* load it in the initial thread explicitly 22:34:16 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:34:38 but what do I know, I program in C++ most of the time I'm a masochist 22:35:57 -!- balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:36:15 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-40-237.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:36:21 gonzojive [~red@171.66.89.111] has joined #lisp 22:36:34 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 22:36:34 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:36:35 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 22:37:02 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@96.246.167.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:37:05 huangho [~vitor@201-40-187-235.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 22:37:48 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:37:56 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-40-237.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:38:08 hehe, it crashed 22:38:23 *Xach* has a card en route to cheez 22:39:17 card? 22:39:31 Last time I completely trashed a running lisp was this morning, due to an infinite loop in the compiler. Admittedly, I was /trying/ to trigger the loop, but still... 22:40:26 so when you crash it, you get a card? sweet 22:40:42 -!- sm` [~s@77.28.120.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:40:52 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:40:57 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:16 You'll see! 22:41:47 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 22:43:49 Xach: I look forward to it then :) 22:44:16 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:44:36 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 22:47:09 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:48:21 nyef: luis: http://paste.lisp.org/display/118772 - I guess when I get to Windows and Linux, I'll have to change %platform-get-initial-thread but till then.. 22:48:22 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-218.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:33 balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 22:50:33 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:50:57 Hi [~Adium@he190123.dsl.fsr.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:24 -!- Hi is now known as Guest62265 22:52:07 corruptmemory [~jim@96.246.167.18] has joined #lisp 22:53:53 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-254-159.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 22:54:27 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:54:57 unicode [~user@95.214.48.214] has joined #lisp 22:55:47 Surely there must be a better way to grab the main thread? :-/ 22:56:53 luis: you can count on that 22:57:18 I'm not sure what it is though 22:57:37 Actually, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if some lisp systems didn't distinguish their initial thread as special in any way. 22:58:21 SBCL seemingly doesn't. But it does seem like the initial thread will hang around as the last element of *all-threads* 22:58:22 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:58:44 The initial thread also has a predictable name, which may be more stable. 22:59:54 one could create another thread named "initial thread" though 23:01:24 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 23:01:36 cheez: anyway, we want to wait until the library finishes loading before proceeding. 23:01:43 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.16.118] has left #lisp 23:02:09 and you probably want to avoid nested interruptions. 23:03:48 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 23:04:32 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-218.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 23:05:03 -!- jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:05:29 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@205.233.9.181] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 23:05:36 -!- balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:06:51 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:08:19 plus, we want to deal with errors 23:08:29 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:10:55 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@213.55.131.17] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:11:32 mindCrime_ [~chatzilla@cpe-075-189-213-049.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:16:15 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:21:05 tcr1 [~tcr@213.55.131.17] has joined #lisp 23:21:07 tirinim. 23:24:20 http://paste.lisp.org/+2JNB ;; looks sane? 23:25:28 luis: looks ok except what happens if the semaphore signals before you reach it? maybe you can use a barrier instead? 23:26:40 cheez: well, wait only waits if the semaphore's count is 0. If it's signalled beforehand, its count will be 1. 23:27:18 luis: I thought it should 23:28:19 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-108-141.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:28:29 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.173.11] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:31:52 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:32:06 so anyway, looks ok to me Now does every supported lisp for cffi allow you to do the same? :D 23:32:52 seangrove [~user@173-126-254-14.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:46 phf` [~user@c-68-32-201-251.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:08 the brittle part is getting the main thread 23:36:23 the other stuff should be pretty standard 23:36:37 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-155-195-23.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:37:03 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-218.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:27 luis: you could allocate the semaphore globally as well. 23:38:41 accel [~accel@unaffiliated/accel] has joined #lisp 23:38:46 In particular, the SBCL system can be built directly from its source code, so that the output corresponds to the source code in a controlled, verifiable way, and arbitrary changes can be made to the system without causing bootstrapping problems. 23:38:53 what does this mean, CMUCL can't be built from source? 23:39:27 accel: only with SBCL, and random bits and pieces of the host leak into the output. 23:39:33 erh, only with CMUCL 23:39:46 so it's basically a trusting trust attack's dream 23:39:47 accel: you need CMUCL of the same version as the one you're building to build it 23:40:02 and the oujtput 23:40:05 is dependent on your host CMUCL ? 23:40:34 yes, though the more usual symptom is that your build fails because of some mismatch 23:40:58 luis: yep and executing the loading code without interrupting loading code I guess 23:42:06 metasyntax [~taylor@72.86.89.174] has joined #lisp 23:43:06 but yes, some constants can have one particular value in the resulting lisp but have been constant-folded to a different value, for example 23:43:45 ... Hasn't that actually happened a time or two in CMUCL? 23:44:38 nyef: in SBCL? yes. 23:45:39 ISTR at least one issue with m-p-f and other standard constants 23:46:27 Can someone explain the syntax in the topic to me? :) 23:46:34 What does the reader turn #1= into? 23:47:22 ocharles: infinite list 23:47:24 clhs #= 23:47:24 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dho.htm 23:48:52 probably some of the early entries on my advodiary show some of the hilarious leakages 23:48:58 -!- jdz [~jdz@host28-17-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:49:04 I particularly remember the make-load-form *ugh* 23:49:06 -!- brodo [~brodo@p5B024416.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:49:10 hrm, so #1# refers to the cons cell of itself? 23:49:51 ocharles: right. 23:50:19 http://advogato.org/person/crhodes/diary/47.html 23:51:18 Heh. I'm suddenly reminded of the relocation branch as well. 23:51:24 rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:38 (The connection is probably "reproducible fasls".) 23:53:35 Edward_ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-18-45.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:56:51 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 23:57:02 Krystof: ISTR being responsible for that bug coming back to life, ~2 years ago ;) 23:58:25 ah, happy days 23:59:20 xiackok [~user@94.54.81.99] has joined #lisp 23:59:55 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-218.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com]