00:00:00 pmurias: yes 00:00:19 pmurias: Fine with me! :) 00:00:23 what should i do if the expression in a let grows very long? 00:01:06 pchrist: turn it into one or more functions 00:01:47 pmurias: that was for you :D 00:02:24 So are they? 00:03:10 pkhuong: ? 00:03:15 meant Phantom_Hoover 00:04:02 Phantom_Hoover: Hard to know. The commercial vendors don't necessarily let us know what they do. 00:04:17 OK, so the open-source ones? 00:05:01 Joreji [~thomas@75-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 00:05:54 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 00:06:41 Phantom_Hoover: I think the reason you don't get an answer is that nobody here knows all the open-source implementations that well. 00:07:08 I suspect SBCL would have the most advanced open source GC, but I have no idea. 00:07:13 -!- quek [~ancient@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:07:19 Phantom_Hoover: I am guessing, for instance, (but I am only guessing) that ABCL uses whatever the underlying JVM uses. 00:07:47 Phantom_Hoover: Why are you asking? Would you like to contribute a better GC? 00:08:26 No, just wondering. 00:10:07 vlion: I highly doubt that SBCL's GC is anywhere near the most advanced GC, even restricted to open source CLs. 00:10:07 how do i turn a symbol into a function? 00:10:31 pkhuong: or open-source GCs 00:10:50 pkhuong: oh? it seems to get the most buzz these days in the open source CL world 00:10:54 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@24.59.205.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:11:05 pmurias: Do you mean "given a symbol, how do I get the function that has that name"? Use symbol-function. 00:11:11 yes 00:11:12 thanks 00:11:17 vlion: SBCL gets all the buzz for various reasons 00:11:32 pmurias: The way to find out things like that is to go to the permuted index in the CLHS and look at "symbol" and "function" 00:12:07 permuted index? 00:12:23 pmurias: Go to the CLHS, then the symbol index, then the permuted index. 00:12:53 pmurias: Do you know about the symbol index? 00:13:45 found that 00:14:21 vlion: SBCL gets all the buzz for various reasons  What like? 00:15:07 Phantom_Hoover: frequently updated, very good performance of compiled code, reasonably easy to build (so reasonably easy to tinker with), works very nicely on linux 00:15:40 Phantom_Hoover: good integration with SLIME 00:16:57 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-67-128.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:17:20 yeah, that was about it. Also, most new software gets tested on it, so it rarely throws a hissy fit unless running on win32 00:18:29 Didn't SBCL have like 70% usage on that one recent survey? 00:18:46 Yes. 00:20:32 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:21:42 it has also a compiler that is just a little bit faster than GCC 00:22:04 p_l|backup: You mean the code it generates? 00:22:08 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:22:29 beach: no, the speed of the compiler. I have faith in SBCLs code generation quality, unlike GCCs :D 00:22:54 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@96.237.125.113] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 00:24:15 p_l|backup: How do you compare compiler speeds for compilers compiling two different languages? 00:25:26 beach: it's a very informal comparison based around comparing different compilers for the same language then comparing the differences 00:25:37 basically, "how it feels", not a scientific comparison 00:26:47 The soft sound of the parens working their way through the code feels right to you? ;) 00:27:38 -!- pinkwerks [~pinkwerks@cpe-74-68-129-122.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:28:02 vlion: no, the smell of coffee grinding while I wait for SBCL 00:28:10 ^_- 00:29:06 (not that bad, actually - running eclipse is worse on my hw) 00:29:07 Ahhh. 00:29:43 maybe that's because you don't compile large sources? 00:29:44 I avoid eclipse like the plague. Fortunately, it doesn't go fast enough to catch me on its own... 00:30:16 hargettp [~anonymous@96.237.125.113] has joined #lisp 00:31:15 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-64-115.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 00:32:47 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-217-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:35:14 -!- redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:36:05 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@86-9-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:36:34 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: omghaahhahaohwow] 00:40:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover [~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:42:22 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@96.237.125.113] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 00:43:57 stassats: the difference is that eclipse is worse without compiling large codebases 00:44:51 stassats: when I'm compiling a large codebase, I'd just leave the process running somewhere in the background with low priority and usually I don't see much issue other than swamping of my already poor I/O 00:46:06 lambda-avenger [~roman@adsl-99-50-120-211.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:06 clisp is faster than SBCL at numbers, isn't it? 00:47:47 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:23 valium97582: No. 00:50:53 its bignum library is faster on large numbers 00:51:24 -!- xiackok [~xiackok@94.54.81.99] has left #lisp 00:51:24 -!- DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:51:42 DarthShrine [~angus@60-242-109-62.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 00:51:42 -!- DarthShrine [~angus@60-242-109-62.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 00:51:42 DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has joined #lisp 00:51:58 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:32 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:53:31 redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:54:54 kmwallio [~kmwallio@host113-70.brownlie.fit.edu] has joined #lisp 00:58:21 -!- lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:03:00 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA25057.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:06:49 -!- bakkdoor|afk [~bakkdoor@s15229144.onlinehome-server.info] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:06:54 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-188-118-129-216.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:08:30 bakkdoor|afk [~bakkdoor@s15229144.onlinehome-server.info] has joined #lisp 01:11:34 -!- bakkdoor|afk is now known as bakkdoor 01:12:13 jleija [~jleija@c-98-199-38-40.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:37 pkhuong: Is that because of the algorithms used? 01:16:05 beach: mostly, I assume. 01:16:38 Someone worked on integrating GMP at runtime; it seems doable, and would fix that performance issue. 01:19:07 lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 01:21:17 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 01:23:04 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-143-225.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:24:31 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-64-115.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:27:45 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483C64F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:29:13 -!- pmurias [~pawel@89-78-165-237.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:32:25 -!- lambda-avenger [~roman@adsl-99-50-120-211.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 01:32:32 I'm using the dpans2texi for my ANSI spec in section 6.1.1.7 Destructuring ther is an example using the `of-type` loop keyword 01:32:33 01:32:48 lambda-avenger [~roman@adsl-99-50-120-211.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:12 when i evaluate it w/ SBCL there is a style-warning, "declaring unknown variable #:LOOP-IGNORE-2355 to be ignored" 01:33:24 Curious as to what this is about? 01:33:38 paste the code 01:34:48 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:35:04 -!- pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:35:25 -!- pdelgallego__ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:35:45 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 01:36:05 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-151-167.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 01:36:38 http://paste.lisp.org/+2JDX 01:36:52 I just reevaluated that in a new package too. 01:38:24 it should be of-type (float float) and of-type (integer integer) 01:39:21 stassats: 6.1.1.7 suggests otherwise. 01:40:46 indeed, that's good 01:41:41 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 01:43:25 stassats: beach: could it be this "If there are more variables in the variable list than there are values in the 01:43:25 values list, the remaining variables are given a value of `nil'." 01:44:34 mon_key: I don't think so. I think SBCL is doing something it shouldn't. 01:45:45 the problem is with (loop with (a) = '(1.0) and (f) return (list a f)) 01:45:52 it places ignore declaration in the wrong place 01:49:27 stassats: So the declaration is meaningless and I should just "not do that"? 01:50:10 not do what? 01:51:10 not bother with the of-type declaration 01:51:20 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-189-128.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:51:23 of-type has nothing to with this issue 01:53:15 stassats: Ok 01:53:24 kanru [~kanru@61-228-156-85.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 01:53:57 i filed it as https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/700538 01:54:03 balooga [~00u4440@pool-173-55-252-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:13 i'm not exactly in the mood for fighting with LOOP 01:54:44 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 01:54:51 LOL. Thanks, it doesn't really affect me I was just reading through the spec and was surprised by the warning. 01:55:05 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 02:07:02 -!- parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:07:36 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-84-42-201-180.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:08:51 parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:09:36 -!- DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:09:56 DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has joined #lisp 02:09:56 -!- mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has quit [Quit: home] 02:11:59 hargettp [~anonymous@96.237.125.113] has joined #lisp 02:16:56 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:20:55 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@96.237.125.113] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 02:21:37 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:27:35 mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:28:29 -!- balooga [~00u4440@pool-173-55-252-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:28:40 hargettp [~anonymous@96.237.125.113] has joined #lisp 02:30:09 StephenFalken` [email@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has joined #lisp 02:30:25 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@96.237.125.113] has quit [Client Quit] 02:30:52 -!- StephenFalken [email@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has quit [Disconnected by services] 02:30:55 -!- StephenFalken` is now known as StephenFalken 02:31:11 hargettp [~anonymous@96.237.125.113] has joined #lisp 02:31:38 -!- Fade [~fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [Quit: client breakage] 02:32:12 Fade [~fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 02:33:07 -!- jomatv6 [~jomat@2001:470:9935::badc:ab1e] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:33:36 jomatv6 [~jomat@2001:470:9935::badc:ab1e] has joined #lisp 02:33:45 -!- Tordek [~tordek@2001:470:dc50:b0::21] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:34:04 Tordek [~tordek@2001:470:dc50:b0::21] has joined #lisp 02:37:24 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@96.237.125.113] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 02:40:06 hahaha. willem broekema came up with (what I think is) a really funny reader hack 02:40:21 (list #- #1=sbcl 2 #+ #1# 1) 02:40:41 combining reader functionality always makes me happy 02:46:32 antifuchs: what about '(#+ sbcl #1=42 #-sbcl 1 #1# 1)) ? 02:46:32 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:46:53 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 02:48:01 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-158-125.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:48:08 what about it? 02:48:45 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:49:05 antifuchs: Does that hack save you keystrokes at some point? 02:49:17 it might, eventually 02:49:28 you will have to use an implementation with a longer name, I guess (: 02:49:36 Heh, right :) 02:49:53 it helps with #+allegro (-: 02:50:16 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 02:51:05 How do I run a subprocess and get the output? Like backticks in bash. 02:51:57 aidalgol: which implementation are you using? 02:53:15 SBCL 02:53:39 *sellout* uses http://www.cliki.net/external-program  but I should get that up on github (starting  now) 02:54:41 I would have recommended run-program (http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Running-external-programs), but sellout has a portable solution, so best use that (: 02:54:45 sellout: is that in quicklisp? 02:55:13 antifuchs: Surprisingly, yes. 02:55:19 excellent 02:55:31 aidalgol: (ql:quickload "external-program") will get it for you (: 02:58:51 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A35CD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:59:19 tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:59:32 -!- tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:59:48 Hrmm, darcs-to-git doesn't like that I've updated tags. Might have to toss the history. 03:00:44 ew. how many commits are there? 03:00:56 (you could re-commit your consensus history semi-manually (-:) 03:01:02 er, I mean semi-automatically 03:02:14 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:02:42 I (hopefully) just patched darcs-to-git to force the tag updates  since I'm not pushing until it's finished, it shouldn't be a problem. 03:03:03 Wouldn't work if you were using d-t-g to incrementally keep two repos in sync. 03:03:18 yeah 03:03:24 but one-time conversions should be fine (: 03:03:40 you're flipping over the central repo, so there (: 03:05:08 hcb [~anon@174-30-212-147.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:49 antifuchs: the expression referenced by #1# is read suppressed, so what should be substituted for it? AFAIK, a strict reading of CLHS would indicate that #1# is NIL. 03:06:12 -!- leifw [~user@cpe-74-74-140-33.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:06:25 pjb: ah. I tried on sbcl, so it wasn't read-suppressed. 03:06:32 :-) 03:06:46 yeah, ref to undefined label 03:07:01 which is too bad. but #1=ing the conditional looks good 03:07:16 Yes. 03:08:10 Man, I was apparently very sloppy with tagging that repo, but it's here now: https://github.com/sellout/external-program 03:08:23 And apparently I have some outstanding changes to commit. 03:09:32 -!- Joreji [~thomas@75-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:09:51 Adlai_ [~leif@ool-18bfe51c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:51 mephisto_ [~mephisto@CPE00163625fbf5-CM00407b85ff2a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:09:53 -!- mephisto_ [~mephisto@CPE00163625fbf5-CM00407b85ff2a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:10:07 -!- Adlai_ [~leif@ool-18bfe51c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:10:10 mephisto_ [~mephisto@CPE00163625fbf5-CM00407b85ff2a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:10:38 Adlai_ [~leif@ool-18bfe51c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:10:50 -!- Adlai_ is now known as leifw_ 03:11:54 -!- lambda-avenger [~roman@adsl-99-50-120-211.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 03:12:00 haha 03:12:11 just in time for Xach to swoop in and release them tomorrow-ish! (: 03:12:27 quick, open an issue before he gets too busy (: 03:12:38 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:13:08 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:25 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 03:16:14 sellout: Haha. I was wondering when that patch of mine would show up. :) 03:16:32 *sellout* whistles innocently 03:18:49 -!- mephisto_ [~mephisto@CPE00163625fbf5-CM00407b85ff2a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 03:19:32 mephisto_ [~mephisto@CPE00163625fbf5-CM00407b85ff2a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:19:33 redline6561: It's only been a year, I mean, how often do you expect updates? Jeez. 03:21:31 adu [~ajr@c-76-23-82-40.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:28:44 -!- leifw_ [~leif@ool-18bfe51c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:32:36 How do I make a string from a number? e.g (f 40) => "40" 03:33:12 -!- redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has left #lisp 03:33:19 redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:36:32 -!- kmwallio [~kmwallio@host113-70.brownlie.fit.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:41:57 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:42:46 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 03:43:47 aidalgol: princ-to-string 03:44:00 Yay  got two more libraries githubbed today. Really making a dent. 03:44:28 Go sellout, go! 03:45:26 hargettp [~anonymous@96.237.125.113] has joined #lisp 03:48:41 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:53:00 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: night.] 03:56:03 I would need to have a couple of procedures to run much faster... using clisp, can I just compile these procedures and run them still from the repl? or do I need to make an exe .. I don't know yet about that. I really don't need any overhead due to debugging or anything. 03:58:33 You could try clisp's experimental jit. 04:01:28 csmax [~max@p5DE8C74F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:01:30 leifw_ [~leif@ool-18bfe51c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:01:36 is it possible to turn a string of bytes into a bignum? (i have some in big endian, some in little) 04:01:54 You could use the amazing power of arithmetic. 04:02:17 figured heh.. 04:03:14 -!- csmax_ [~max@p5DE8C9F9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:08:20 Caffeine: yes, just compiling the program is enough to make it run at the maximum speed in clisp. 04:08:34 Caffeine: generating an executable (with ext:saveinitmem) won't make it faster. 04:09:00 Caffeine: (load (compile-file "your-program.lisp")) 04:10:00 yan_: you can also use the amazing power of dpb 04:10:34 It could be faster than arithmetic, if your base is a power of two. 04:11:50 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-217-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:12:30 pjb: I'm tring this right now, thanks, but is that normal that I don't see anything printed to screen once compiled? (I had a call to print somewhere) 04:12:34 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:12:59 -!- adu [~ajr@c-76-23-82-40.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 04:13:39 Caffeine: perhaps. You see, when you call compile-file, your file is processed at compilation time. When you load the fas. file, it's processed at load time. In either case, it's not processed at execution time until you call a function. 04:13:55 Caffeine: have a look at eval-when so that you may have some processing done during load time too. 04:14:36 Oh it was not while loading the file.. just in a procedure I call manually after the (load (compile-file...)) call 04:15:07 it's supposed to print some numbers as it goes, but once compiled it doesn't 04:15:08 Then indeed, ifyou don't print yourself only the results of the function is printed by the REPL. 04:15:24 Caffeine: you may use lisppaste. 04:17:00 -!- kanru [~kanru@61-228-156-85.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 04:17:03 pjb: http://paste.lisp.org/display/118439 04:17:26 unless all print calls are stripped from compiled code, I don't know why it wouldn't print..... :S 04:17:41 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-130-246.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:17:53 and how do you call it? 04:18:11 (run-mystery** num1 num2) 04:18:22 With what bindings for num1 and num2? 04:18:38 no in fact num 1 is 1000000000000 04:18:40 And what is the implementation of prime-special-p 04:18:44 and num 2 is 1000100000000 04:19:01 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-130-246.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 04:19:07 How many prime numbers are even? 04:19:22 ahh oops 04:19:24 lol 04:19:33 sorry >.< my bad 04:19:53 I should put a check at the beginning that "from" isn't even... I'll do just that 04:19:54 sorry 04:19:55 :S 04:20:01 now it prints 04:20:30 1, but that isn't it. :) 04:20:47 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-159-110.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:20:53 wow it goes 8 times faster.. saves my life :D 04:21:33 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-130-246.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:24:57 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:30:52 VersaX [HurricaneS@c-98-206-238-4.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:41:16 -!- VersaX [HurricaneS@c-98-206-238-4.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:41:40 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sbahra] 04:44:56 kdr2 [~kdr2@123.122.121.174] has joined #lisp 04:47:27 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@96.237.125.113] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 04:49:50 -!- nullman [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:51:16 -!- statonjr 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[~foo@host98-124-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 08:02:07 _ism [~frinnn@i59F6123C.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 08:03:36 arbscht: listening to New Years podcast now 08:03:39 its' great ;) 08:04:51 -!- biTT [~frinnn@i59F62E63.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:05:10 balooga [~00u4440@pool-173-55-252-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:05:48 hi balooga :) 08:10:07 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-94-181.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:10:51 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 08:10:51 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 08:10:51 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 08:12:30 -!- qsun [~qsun@66.220.3.138] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:13:02 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-89-237.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:13:03 qsun [~qsun@66.220.3.138] has joined #lisp 08:17:42 good morning 08:17:49 *valium97582* yawns 08:19:02 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 08:21:15 kiuma [~kiuma@93-36-0-34.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:36:28 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-186-119.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 08:37:32 vlion` [~user@76.178.165.160] has joined #lisp 08:37:37 -!- vlion` [~user@76.178.165.160] has quit [Client Quit] 08:41:06 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:43:11 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@85.253.74.142.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 08:43:57 hello valium97582 08:44:04 [and Good afternoon everyone!] 08:44:20 hello beach 08:45:22 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:46:40 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:49:00 carlocci [~nes@93.37.214.37] has joined #lisp 08:50:02 az [~az@p4FE4F61E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:53:09 -!- az [~az@p4FE4F61E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:53:45 pdelgallego__ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 08:53:57 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 08:54:04 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.67.206.205] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:54:30 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-126-98.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 08:54:47 cmm [~cmm@109.67.206.205] has joined #lisp 08:55:08 mega1 [~mega1@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 08:56:48 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@93-36-0-34.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:00:29 -!- aidalgol [aidan@2002:453d:f72::1337:2] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:01:14 kiuma [~kiuma@93-36-0-34.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:01:36 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:03:41 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-126-98.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:04:40 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 09:06:29 -!- delYsid [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:06:35 delYsid` [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 09:08:46 HG` [~HG@xdslar231.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 09:10:56 pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 09:20:14 -!- pocket_ [~masato@p3239-ipbf2310hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:21:10 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@93-36-0-34.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:22:17 kiuma [~kiuma@93-36-0-34.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:24:57 g'day 09:25:08 hey schmrkc 09:25:26 Hiya beach, and go fortsättning. 09:25:38 You too! 09:30:49 So tomorrow the lisp game jam starts! 09:31:01 What is it? 09:31:40 It's a 7 day lisp game event. Some theme (and a few other things) are picked at random and you have 7 days to write your game in some lisp. 09:32:26 6 people are participating so it's no major thing. But I'm quite excited :) 09:32:36 Hmm, "some lisp". I can already see the problems here. Is Scheme a Lisp? What about Haskell? 09:32:56 ya scheme is a lisp. 09:33:05 Oh it is no problem. 09:33:23 Unless someone makes it a problem. But it's supposed to be fun, not supposed to be a problem :) 09:36:09 -!- symbole [~user@ool-182ff693.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:37:17 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-10-39.iburst.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:38:02 az [~az@p4FE4F61E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:39:16 snearch [~snearch@f053002016.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:48:56 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-30-209.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:49:17 hi schmrkc 09:49:29 -!- kephas is now known as nowhere_man 09:49:33 schmrkc: i'm all stoked to work on Puzzle Dance Party Extreme 09:50:15 dto: Great! 09:50:26 how are you? 09:50:59 dto: I'm a bit sore after yesterday. But quite good. Somehow I need to squeeze in a visit to the gym today. Trying to decide on what language to use for the game jam too. 09:51:29 I really think thsi game jam should be a monthly or bi-monthly thing. 09:51:41 It's so much better than unthemed competitions! 09:54:40 schmrkc, Motorola Atrix. 09:54:45 mornin' lispers. 09:55:05 tic: hey lifter. 09:55:15 I do lift. 09:55:16 tic: why haven't you signed up for the sylt tomorrow!? 09:55:28 -!- lundis [~lundis@gprs-prointernet-ff736a00-131.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: Fear not, I will return] 09:55:31 schmrkc, I'm not into jam. What's sylt? 09:55:53 http://lispgames.ath.cx/index.php/2011_January_Lispy_Game_Jam 09:56:03 Ah. 09:56:18 dunno, maybe I should. 09:56:18 tic: 52 seconds frog! 09:56:22 ya man you should. 09:56:42 I hope to get atleast 6hrs in over the week. so hopefully I'll have a pixel you can move about. 09:58:23 -!- ifaria [~user@2001:250:4001:143:222:68ff:fe76:88e4] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:58:43 sbcl / android? I seen it's been discussed. 09:59:24 Hey tic! 09:59:28 heya beach! 10:00:05 beach, how's it going? done any work w/ Sicl? 10:01:06 tic: I have only been set up correctly for a few days. I started reading mvilleneuve's loop code yesterday. I'll probably add comments to it, because I no longer understand what I myself wrote some time ago. 10:01:16 beach, :)) 10:01:47 -!- DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:02:56 I'm trying to get into programming again, myself. (aside from the programming at work, but that is more library-glueing than demanding creative work.) 10:03:32 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 10:03:55 tic: That's why you need the sylt! 10:04:50 schmrkc, I'll just put on too much pressure on myself. :-/ 10:04:57 oh 10:05:02 francogrex [~user@109.130.90.44] has joined #lisp 10:05:22 People take this too seriously. :) It's 2011. It's a year of fun. 10:06:22 serious sam. 10:06:43 H4ns`` [~user@pD4B9E436.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:07:30 lucifer sam. siam cat. 10:07:47 tic: /query!! 10:08:32 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 10:09:03 -!- adu [~ajr@c-76-23-82-40.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 10:10:14 -!- H4ns` [~user@pD4B9E501.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:13:32 kbdvdr [~co1n@210-89-227-75.ap-w02.canvas.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:15:02 schmrkc: big workout yesterday here as well 10:15:24 *francogrex* switched to sbcl at work for 1 week already: very satisfied. Man why hadn't I done that before! 10:15:25 dto: Cools. That's not what I had. Big training session. 10:17:00 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755225.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:17:59 OHS beat the living out of me yesterday. 10:18:53 myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 10:24:31 schmrkc: what training? 10:26:14 dto: I was primarily training overhead pressing, pull ups, swings, and grip strength. 10:26:17 Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 10:30:06 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 10:35:03 tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:38:19 -!- kbdvdr [~co1n@210-89-227-75.ap-w02.canvas.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:39:50 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-65-117.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 10:40:09 -!- deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:44:45 hi : http://paste.lisp.org/display/118444 which seems *more* correct ? (probably none of them is!) 10:45:26 francogrex: what's it for? 10:45:45 <_3b> loop collect should make a new list, so don't need to copy it 10:47:40 it's small part of a simple a game of throwing dice x times and collecting (sorted) the results 10:47:58 francogrex: How big is n likely to be? 10:48:31 francogrex: I vote for number 3 out of the 4. 10:49:03 ok; I put a restriction on n would be less than 10 throws 10:49:46 *schmrkc* also likes #3. 10:49:47 [because if n were large, you would rather make a histogram directly] 10:50:02 What's the idea with the LETs and COPY-LISTs ? 10:51:49 was afraid of destruction; ok, schmrkc I'm writing my first lispgame :) in lispbuilder-dsl 10:52:04 it's a "risk" kind of game 10:54:23 francogrex: Are in for the jam starting tomorrow? 10:55:26 francogrex: Looking forward to see this risk game :) 10:57:11 schmrkc: I don't think I'm ready for tomorrow's jam :( I still want to develop it further; but promised #lispgames would make it ready and well developed for the following jam :) 11:01:06 francogrex: There is nothing to be ready for :) 11:01:10 I only started 2 days ago, I have a board, interactive pawns and some rules set but needs more (like the cards and trivia selection etc)... I'll brief the guys more about it tonight #lispgames 11:01:30 francogrex: My gawd. If you can do that much in 2 days then you're doing more than I will do in 7 days for the game jam :) 11:01:31 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-65-117.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:04:01 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 11:04:16 deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 11:05:01 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A119.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:06:32 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:09:56 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-186-119.vologda.ru] has quit [*.net *.split] 11:09:56 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 11:09:56 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-168-252.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 11:09:56 -!- ecraven [~user@140.78.42.213] has quit [*.net *.split] 11:09:56 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 11:09:56 -!- jsnell [~jsnell@ash.snellman.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 11:09:56 -!- seejay [~seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has quit [*.net *.split] 11:09:56 -!- naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has quit [*.net *.split] 11:09:56 -!- baley_ [~baley@87.229.24.201] has quit [*.net *.split] 11:09:56 -!- lusory [~bart@bb219-74-218-205.singnet.com.sg] has quit [*.net *.split] 11:09:56 -!- Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 11:09:56 -!- [df] [~df@163.8.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has quit [*.net *.split] 11:09:56 -!- adeht [void@cattle-driver.no-ip.info] has quit [*.net *.split] 11:09:56 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.67.206.205] has quit [*.net *.split] 11:09:56 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-149-166-62.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [*.net *.split] 11:09:56 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [*.net *.split] 11:09:57 -!- Phoodus [~foo@174-17-240-55.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 11:09:57 -!- beach [~user@116.118.7.230] has quit [*.net *.split] 11:09:57 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-5-94.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 11:09:57 -!- Axioplase_ [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [*.net *.split] 11:09:57 -!- christoph_debian [~christoph@DSL01.212.114.250.148.ip-pool.NEFkom.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 11:11:04 -!- StephenFalken [email@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:11:51 cmm [~cmm@109.67.206.205] has joined #lisp 11:11:51 _danb_ [~user@124-149-166-62.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:11:51 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 11:11:51 Phoodus [~foo@174-17-240-55.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 11:11:51 christoph_debian [~christoph@DSL01.212.114.250.148.ip-pool.NEFkom.net] has joined #lisp 11:11:51 beach [~user@116.118.7.230] has joined #lisp 11:11:51 Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-5-94.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:11:51 Axioplase_ [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 11:12:00 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-186-119.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 11:12:00 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 11:12:00 s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-168-252.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 11:12:00 ecraven [~user@140.78.42.213] has joined #lisp 11:12:00 gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 11:12:00 jsnell [~jsnell@ash.snellman.net] has joined #lisp 11:12:00 seejay [~seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has joined #lisp 11:12:00 naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has joined #lisp 11:12:00 baley_ [~baley@87.229.24.201] has joined #lisp 11:12:00 lusory [~bart@bb219-74-218-205.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 11:12:00 Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:12:00 [df] [~df@163.8.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has joined #lisp 11:12:00 adeht [void@cattle-driver.no-ip.info] has joined #lisp 11:12:03 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:12:03 77CAAKUIN [~sam_53652@ip72-200-158-231.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:12:34 :) ok; I'll try to work on it a bit more this afternoon and see how it goes 11:12:50 StephenFalken [email@89-180-232-197.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 11:15:28 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 11:15:28 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-186-119.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:15:29 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-186-119.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 11:23:58 loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.178] has joined #lisp 11:26:16 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 11:35:43 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@85.253.74.142.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 11:36:56 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-65-117.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 11:36:56 -!- Caffeine [~satanama@cable-10-157-244.b2b2c.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:36:56 Guest1723 [~satanama@cable-10-157-244.b2b2c.ca] has joined #lisp 11:37:06 nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has joined #lisp 11:37:06 -!- nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has quit [Changing host] 11:37:06 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 11:37:55 churib [~churib@95.156.194.105] has joined #lisp 11:45:43 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:46:33 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 11:49:26 freddie111 [~user@ppp-94-64-154-64.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 11:52:40 I want to loop over a list and a nested loop over each element, specifically (but working): (loop for i in '(1 2 3 4 5) then for c across "abcde" when (> i 3) collect (> i 2)) 11:52:55 How would I want to write that? 11:53:27 *_3b* can't tell what you are trying to do 11:53:27 oops. 11:53:43 (loop for i in '(1 2 3 4 5) then for c across "abcde" when (> i 3) collect (i . c)) 11:53:50 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 11:53:59 <_3b> just get rid of the 'then'? 11:54:10 that does for in parallell. i want it in sequence 11:54:25 Like Python's list comprehension: [(i, c) for i in [1,2,3,4,5] for c in "abcde" if i > 3] 11:54:29 for-for is in sequence.. if you wanted parallel you'd use for-and 11:54:40 also, (i . c) should likely be (cons i c) 11:55:12 The above will collect (in Python): [(4, a), (4, b), (4, c), ..., (5, e)] 11:55:23 <_3b> ah, just nest loops then 11:55:29 tic: you need nesting for that.. (loop for i in '(1 2 3 4 5) nconc (loop for c across "abcde" collect (cons i c))) 11:55:35 <_3b> (loop for i in ... appens (loop for c across ,, collect)) 11:55:54 <_3b> yeah, nconc is probably better than misspelled append there :) 11:56:25 vokoda` [~user@host109-153-55-169.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:57:19 ahh, nconc was what I was looking for. I actually tried collect for the first loop, but that gave me NILs. Thanks 11:57:24 thought there was something built-in there. 11:58:24 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 11:59:50 -!- vokoda [~user@unaffiliated/vokoda] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:01:43 also, is there a short version of (not (zerop (length str)) ? 12:02:49 (string= str "") ? 12:06:11 (plusp (length str)) 12:06:48 -!- mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mheld] 12:06:49 Why not write your own? 12:06:53 -!- Tordek [~tordek@2001:470:dc50:b0::21] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:07:04 a good macro is always the answer! 12:07:28 I'd choose something nice and long, like (non-empty-string-p str) 12:07:36 yesh 12:07:45 Remember that you're writing for pathetic humans to read. 12:08:27 quek [~ancient@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 12:08:55 If you have to repeat it enough that being long is an issue you should probably be abstracting something out. 12:10:05 Tordek [~tordek@2001:470:dc50:b0::21] has joined #lisp 12:10:20 Yup. 12:13:43 yvdriess [~Beef@109.129.206.226] has joined #lisp 12:13:46 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-149-166-62.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:14:14 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@109.129.206.226] has quit [Client Quit] 12:15:12 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:17:33 Joreji [~thomas@75-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:18:13 I want to create a set {}. Would that be #'remove-duplicates? 12:19:09 dfox [~dfox@e22.dkm.cz] has joined #lisp 12:20:50 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.90.44] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:20:52 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-158-96.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:22:45 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:23:35 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 12:24:02 -!- benny [~benny@i577A39AB.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:38:46 -!- balooga [~00u4440@pool-173-55-252-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:41:23 xiackok [~xiackok@94.54.81.99] has joined #lisp 12:41:45 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@249.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:43:20 amb007 [~a_bakic@249.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 12:44:28 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 12:47:51 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:48:50 tic: it's not really necessary, but yes, remove-duplicates can be used. 12:52:00 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:52:11 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@86-9-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 12:52:22 -!- xiackok [~xiackok@94.54.81.99] has left #lisp 12:53:18 rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:53:21 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-33-41-219.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 12:55:53 francogrex [~user@109.130.90.44] has joined #lisp 12:57:17 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@86-9-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:01:29 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@86-9-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 13:07:29 G1466 [~G1466@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 13:07:33 brodo_ [~brodo@p5B0243A6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:07:37 hargettp [~anonymous@96.237.125.113] has joined #lisp 13:08:58 G1571 [~G1571@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:27 killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 13:13:22 -!- mega1 [~mega1@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 13:17:49 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 13:18:35 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 13:20:44 tic: push the ground away! 13:21:16 ch077179 [~urs@adsl-89-217-83-229.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 13:22:37 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 13:22:52 -!- sm` [~s@77.29.21.10] has quit [] 13:23:50 -!- guillermo [~guillermo@unaffiliated/guillermo] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:26:38 pjb, it's pretty necessary, if you want to use UNION, INTERSECTION and SET-DIFFERENCE.. 13:26:42 what do people think of Kickstart? 13:26:42 -!- G1466 [~G1466@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Quit: Common Lisp IRC library - http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-irc] 13:27:04 Is it a Lisp program? 13:27:06 deepfire: How so? 13:27:41 -!- quek [~ancient@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:28:40 beach, Oh, I see. I just learned something new -- namely that set functions operate on non-normalised lists as well.. 13:28:52 Sorry for confusion. 13:28:59 No problem. 13:30:05 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 13:30:07 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:30:15 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 13:30:15 *deepfire* systematically used REMOVE-DUPLICATES in his code, in order to normalise lists for set functions.. 13:30:48 deep: Well, you'd probably need a set type, otherwise. :) 13:31:08 Zhivago, wouldn't it be nice to have one? 13:31:12 What would be the point of those functions then? 13:31:31 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-67.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 13:31:40 drdo, well, they would still operate on normalised lists. 13:31:43 -!- G1571 [~G1571@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:32:04 -!- pdelgallego__ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:32:11 Where "normalised" means containing only unique (wrt. the test) elements. 13:32:43 I'm not sure, but I guess this could be made faster. 13:32:46 -!- pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:33:03 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:33:58 deepfire: I still don't understand what you are talking about, where were you using set-difference? 13:34:06 *remove-duplicates 13:34:41 drdo, imagine that (set-difference '(1 1) '(1)) evaluated to '(1) 13:35:08 deepfire: That's no problem 13:35:16 drdo, of course it is! 13:35:23 You shouldn't be using set-difference on that because '(1 1) is not a set 13:35:25 drdo, GIGO 13:35:38 ? 13:35:38 drdo, but set-difference is specified to return '() 13:36:39 I don't see a problem if set-difference would return undefined results if you use on things that are not sets 13:37:05 ugh, why aren't there any modern lisp operating systems? 13:37:09 C is pissing me off. 13:37:12 drdo, I would see a problem, now, because I've read the specification. 13:37:19 sm` [s@77.29.21.10] has joined #lisp 13:37:30 deepfire: That case only accidentally works 13:37:39 drdo, no, it is specified to work like this 13:37:43 bougyman: Because you didn't write any? 13:37:58 deepfire: (intersection '(x x) '(x)) -> '(x x) 13:37:58 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:38:02 beach: right, i'm not That Guy 13:38:09 it takes That Guy to write an operating system. 13:38:35 <[df]> someone should teach That Guy lisp then 13:38:42 truth 13:39:12 maybe That Girl 13:39:39 drdo, ouch! 13:40:05 deepfire: set-difference only accidentally works like that 13:40:15 because it's the most efficient algorithm 13:40:22 Smells like lousy naming over here. 13:40:36 no, your idea smells 13:40:56 set-difference, intersection and union work as intended if they are used on sets 13:41:18 drdo, you cannot say this about SET-DIFFERENCE. 13:41:25 why? 13:41:45 drdo, read the page on SET-DIFFERENCE. 13:42:19 deepfire: I know what you mean, but that is pointless 13:42:36 SpitfireWP_ [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 13:42:40 It is specified to return sets, even if passed non-set lists. 13:42:42 It is specified to work like that because that's the most efficient algorithm, there's not any discussion there 13:42:53 It might as well be specified that that works 13:43:37 It's interesting, also, how SET-DIFFERENCE is the only function with the SET- prefix. 13:43:50 I can't see the logic behind naming here. 13:43:58 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:44:38 deepfire: set-exclusive-or also 13:45:07 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:45:30 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.90.44] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:46:14 bencc [~user@bzq-84-111-72-192.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:51 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:46:51 Ha, set-exclusive-or is also specified to do normalisation. 13:47:55 I see the pattern, but I can only use memory, not logic, to internalise these collective behaviors. 13:48:15 drdo: SET-SYNTAX-FROM-CHAR also. 13:48:15 That is pointless 13:48:20 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:34 drdo, what is? 13:48:42 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@85.253.74.142.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 13:48:59 That they do or do not remove duplicates, it doesn't matter if you are working on proper sets 13:50:42 drdo, we can put to use specified behaviors. More effectively so if the behaviors are lexically apparent (as if with the SET- prefix). Even more effectively so if the logic behind lexical designation of these behavior is readily apparent. 13:51:11 It's only specified because the most efficient algorithm happens to do that "by accident" and, since such behaviour might be useful, it might as well be specified 13:51:34 drdo, I'm taking the language user position here : -) 13:51:49 Ahmm, me too? 13:52:12 drdo, no, you seem to talk more like an implementor : -) 13:52:29 The standard could just say that it is undefined if you call it on things that are not sets 13:52:30 -!- freddie111 [~user@ppp-94-64-154-64.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:52:44 Of course it could. Many things are possible. 13:53:01 But you could realise that it has that behaviour of removing duplicates and take advantage of it 13:53:15 But then you would be relying on non-standard behaviour 13:54:06 Not undefined, btw., merely unspecified. 13:54:21 But since there isn't a better algorithm, standardizing that behaviour helps the user 13:54:27 -!- dfox [~dfox@e22.dkm.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:54:53 -!- SpitfireWP_ is now known as SpitfireWP 13:55:07 -!- sm` [s@77.29.21.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:55:08 I don't see the problem here and i don't see how i'm taking "the implementor position" 13:55:25 I see that logic, and I do not have anything against it. 13:55:38 I was complaining about the illogical naming. 13:56:09 Well, systematic, but apparently (to me) illogical. 13:56:26 bencc1 [~user@bzq-84-111-72-192.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:56:39 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@85.253.74.142.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 13:56:55 I don't understand 13:57:08 What exactly are you talking about? 13:57:22 -!- bencc [~user@bzq-84-111-72-192.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:58:45 drdo, do the names of the set functions (including those prefixed by SET-) suggest to you what they should do? Without the reference to the specification your only chance (here I assume that your brain works like mine) of internalising the differences between behaviours is to use memory. 13:58:49 serichsen [~user@g228194051.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:58:53 Hello! 13:59:32 deepfire: Yes, they do suggest what they should do 13:59:47 drdo, well, can you explain it to me? 14:00:04 union is the union of sets 14:00:04 drdo, and why an alternative interpretation isn't equally likely? 14:00:11 set-difference is the difference of sets 14:00:15 etc.. 14:00:17 sm` [s@77.29.16.111] has joined #lisp 14:00:48 How do you memorise that set-difference does normalisation, and union doesn't? 14:01:11 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:01:20 I say that plain memorisation is a sign of suboptimal language design. 14:01:25 You shouldn't use it on things that are not sets very often 14:01:43 That's an extremely weak argument. 14:01:45 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:02:14 -!- bencc1 [~user@bzq-84-111-72-192.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:02:27 deepfire: What is your argument? 14:02:39 *deepfire* cuts and pastes 14:02:56 set-difference computes the difference of sets 14:03:03 drdo, we can put to use specified behaviors. More effectively so, if the behaviors are lexically apparent (as if with the SET- prefix). Even more effectively so, if the logic behind lexical designation of these behavior is readily apparent. 14:03:03 How can this be more clear? 14:03:07 bencc [~user@bzq-84-111-72-192.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:03:20 no, SET-DIFFERENCE is specified to operate on non-normalised sets as well 14:03:41 Sure, but that is merely a useful accident 14:03:48 It is specified. 14:03:58 Yes, because it's useful 14:03:58 Specification attaches meaning to words. 14:04:08 -!- parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:04:22 parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:04:24 I want the meaning to be maximally exposed through the names. 14:04:33 deepfire: What is your suggestion for a name then? 14:04:49 I didn't think of this. 14:05:10 An immediate reaction is to flip the designation. 14:05:26 Make strict set functions be prefixed with SET-. 14:05:29 *_3b* doesn't see the difference, don't all the set ops work on non-normalized sets? 14:05:44 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:05:45 _3b, no... sadly. 14:05:47 It's the same issue as people relying on UNLESS and WHEN to return nil 14:06:03 Sure, it is specified and works, but leads to less readable code 14:06:30 Readability is in the eye of the beholder. 14:06:44 Logical naming is a more absolute entity. 14:07:03 I honestly don't see your point 14:07:06 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053002016.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 14:08:05 drdo: it does? 14:08:08 Well, if we were to take it to extreme, imagine CL with all symbol names changed to random strings. 14:08:38 *_3b* doesn't see any normalization in set-difference, (set-difference '(x x) '(y)) => (x x) 14:08:58 Oh, so it's even worser. 14:09:26 No, it's not, it works as one would expect for sets 14:09:31 I don't see the point behind the SET- prefix at all, then. 14:09:34 <_3b> from what i can see, they all work on non-normalized set, and return values that are possibly non-normalized if the input was 14:09:49 *stassats* doesn't understand how is (cond (condition ... ...) (t nil)) and (cond (condition nil) (t ... ...)) more readable than WHEN and UNLESS 14:10:07 <_3b> presumably the set prefix is for things that could apply to more than sets... number-difference makes sense, number-union doesn't 14:10:16 The SET- prefix does not appear to serve any discriminatiry purpose. 14:10:25 deepfire: Of course it does 14:10:35 They are set operations 14:10:39 _3b, why not SET-prefix all the set operations? 14:10:44 drdo, no, no and no 14:10:54 drdo, do you understand discrimination? 14:11:06 the seemingly random SET-prefixing _does_ discriminate 14:11:21 but.. between what? 14:11:48 there are no sets in CL 14:11:55 -!- nullman [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:11:57 True, to a point. 14:11:59 names prefixed with SET work on sets, that does not mean that there can't exist other that also work on sets 14:12:15 An obvious statement. 14:13:29 ifaria [~user@2001:250:4001:143:222:68ff:fe76:88e4] has joined #lisp 14:14:46 yes, i don't understand what problem you are perceiving, so i'm just stating the obvious, because maybe you haven't grasped the obvious 14:15:16 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 14:15:25 -!- bencc [~user@bzq-84-111-72-192.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:18:19 nullman [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:14 bencc [~user@bzq-84-111-72-192.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:21 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 14:23:42 brodo [~brodo@p5B025BA6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:05 -!- brodo [~brodo@p5B025BA6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:25:04 kbdvdr [~co1n@210-89-227-75.ap-w02.canvas.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:25:36 -!- brodo_ [~brodo@p5B0243A6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:28:39 petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 14:29:55 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:30:28 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 14:38:24 -!- leifw_ [~leif@ool-18bfe51c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:38:57 -!- 77CAAKUIN [~sam_53652@ip72-200-158-231.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 14:40:30 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-10-39.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:41:14 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 14:44:03 -!- ifaria [~user@2001:250:4001:143:222:68ff:fe76:88e4] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:45:56 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 14:46:51 Is there any way, with FiveAM, to indicate expected failures? 14:49:43 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:49:53 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:29 -!- kdr2 [~kdr2@123.122.121.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:54:05 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 14:56:30 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:57:52 benny` [~benny@i577A2621.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:01:25 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:03:04 pizdets [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:06 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:06:07 urandom__ [~user@p548A66B2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:06:13 You know, at one point I had a good multi-impl testing setup. That seems to have decayed a bit over the past few years  15:06:32 xinming_ [~hyy@122.238.78.147] has joined #lisp 15:08:58 -!- xinming [~hyy@122.238.76.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:13:32 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:15:26 -!- loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.178] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:15:38 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:18:35 -!- benny` is now known as benny 15:26:21 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 15:28:16 gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:25 EarlGray [~EarlGray@79.124.229.51] has joined #lisp 15:33:04 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:34:14 -!- MrElendig [~oh@pdpc/supporter/active/mrelendig] has quit [Quit: reboot to new kernel] 15:38:48 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:40:50 faux [~user@c-219c70d5.035-128-67626713.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:40:52 -!- kbdvdr [~co1n@210-89-227-75.ap-w02.canvas.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:47:56 loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.178] has joined #lisp 15:48:15 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-217-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:14 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 15:52:18 So, following up on that  if anyone wants to test HEAD of https://github.com/sellout/external-program on their favorite implementation, I'd love to hear how it goes :) 15:52:24 -!- christoph_debian [~christoph@DSL01.212.114.250.148.ip-pool.NEFkom.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:53:50 christoph_debian [~christoph@DSL01.212.114.250.149.ip-pool.NEFkom.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:02 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-67.catv.broadband.hu] has left #lisp 15:57:27 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-10-39.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:57:28 -!- kanru [~kanru@61-228-156-85.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:57:57 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-10-39.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:58:20 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 15:58:53 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 16:02:36 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:05:13 VelcroMan [VelcroMan@83.209.145.182] has joined #lisp 16:06:12 -!- gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:07:45 I'm entirely new to lisp. Never written a line of it. But i'm a bit interested in learning. Should i go for Common Lisp or Scheme, or something different? 16:08:55 Common Lisp is the greatest and best Lisp in the world. 16:08:58 VelcroMan: the answer from this channel is CL, the answer from #scheme is probably Scheme. :-) 16:09:18 Ok, so this is basically a CL channel then? 16:09:22 Yes. 16:10:17 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:10:25 Learning lisp is more important than learning scheme or CL. 16:10:39 The dialect isn't that important. 16:12:20 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 16:12:31 What is lisp manily used for? I know, a very general question. 16:13:23 In general? Everything. 16:14:41 VelcroMan: I mainly use it to write programs. 16:15:17 sometimes literally. 16:15:29 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 16:16:50 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-10-39.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:17:09 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-10-39.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:26:07 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:29:26 sellout, d'oh, http://feelingofgreen.ru:3000/projects/executor.. 16:31:01 As a plus, it also supports assembling processes into unix pipelines. 16:31:19 I'm not sure if this works reliably outside of SBCL, though. 16:31:53 leifw_ [~leif@ool-18bfe51c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:32:48 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:26 urs_ [~urs@adsl-89-217-83-229.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 16:33:26 -!- urs_ [~urs@adsl-89-217-83-229.adslplus.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 16:37:01 deepfire: is that redmine ? 16:38:11 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-140.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:38:51 fe[nl]ix, yes, with the pixel cookers theme (http://www.pixel-cookers.com/2010/03/05/theme-redmine-pixel-cookers/) 16:40:25 -!- VelcroMan [VelcroMan@83.209.145.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:41:14 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-130-246.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:44:55 VelcroMan [VelcroMan@83.209.145.182] has joined #lisp 16:48:44 timepilot [~timepilot@66.71.230.223] has joined #lisp 16:49:05 HET2 [~diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 16:50:21 sellout, I added a link to external-project on the project page of executor 16:51:53 what i miss in sb-ext:run-program is the ability to specify element-type 16:52:47 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:54:36 stassats`, basic-character vs. extended-character vs. unsigned-byte? 16:54:45 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-10-39.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:54:57 more like character vs. unsigned-byte 16:55:04 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-10-39.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:55:40 and it's base-char and extended-char 16:55:52 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 16:58:18 heloehlo [~bfouts@66.83.65.206.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:37 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.45.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:00:04 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:00:26 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 17:01:22 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:01:23 -!- leifw_ [~leif@ool-18bfe51c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:01:24 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.72.119] has joined #lisp 17:02:13 leifw_ [~leif@ool-18bfe51c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:31 -!- CrazyEddy [~melittolo@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:11:19 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:14:40 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 17:16:07 -!- EarlGray [~EarlGray@79.124.229.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:17:11 vokoda`` [~user@host86-150-85-201.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:18:21 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:18:24 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-65-117.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:18:57 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.72.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:19:12 -!- vokoda` [~user@host109-153-55-169.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:19:38 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@93-36-0-34.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:20:29 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:20:36 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.68.144] has joined #lisp 17:25:39 EarlGray [~EarlGray@91.145.224.21] has joined #lisp 17:26:36 -!- rread [~rread@c-24-5-127-116.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: rread] 17:26:58 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:27:49 LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-117-4.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:27 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755225.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:28:58 beerTRUCKz [~beerTRUCK@166.205.143.240] has joined #lisp 17:30:54 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Exeunt IRC] 17:32:59 srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:32 -!- beerTRUCKz [~beerTRUCK@166.205.143.240] has quit [Client Quit] 17:34:43 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@96.237.125.113] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 17:35:36 -!- ch077179 [~urs@adsl-89-217-83-229.adslplus.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:36:33 rread [~rread@c-24-5-127-116.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:44 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-165-224.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:37:19 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:40:48 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:44:43 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 17:45:03 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.68.144] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:46:59 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.58.83] has joined #lisp 17:50:14 Man, norvig and russell's modern approach is a piece of crap 17:51:50 ch077179 [~urs@adsl-84-226-67-192.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 17:52:13 -!- VelcroMan [VelcroMan@83.209.145.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:52:41 -!- osoleve is now known as osoleve_cig 17:55:19 pnq [~nick@ACA21139.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 17:55:26 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.58.83] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:56:23 daedra [~simon@unaffiliated/daedra] has joined #lisp 17:56:40 is it good practice in lisp to keep your code to 80 columns width? 17:56:53 it's good for me 17:57:02 some think 120 for python, 80 for C 17:57:19 VelcroMan [VelcroMan@83.209.145.182] has joined #lisp 17:57:20 just wondered if there was some style guideline for Lisp 17:57:50 drdo: Why so? Is there something you'd recommend instead? 17:58:21 daedra: i use 80 for everything, it works on any display 17:58:29 ok 17:58:31 redline6561: Try reading it, it's the natural language equivalent of spaghetti code 17:58:52 It's also not relevant to #lisp. 17:59:11 it's more about readibiltity, I know. 17:59:13 Xach: Apologies. drdo: Will do. 18:01:12 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-117-4.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:02:08 daedra: i also find with natural language, that it's easier to read in small columns 18:02:35 my display fits 157 characters, but i still find 80 to be more readable 18:03:22 stassats: 2 buffers side by side is pretty awesomely useful 18:04:08 yeah 18:04:10 ok :) 18:04:16 codelurker [~codelurke@66.71.230.223] has joined #lisp 18:04:17 thanks for your suggestions 18:04:28 -!- daedra [~simon@unaffiliated/daedra] has left #lisp 18:05:49 too bad 80 doesn't divide 157 18:05:49 Bronsa [~BRACE@host156-180-dynamic.2-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:06:19 stassats: close enough. 18:06:57 <_3b> yeah, always annoying that monitors are just a few charcters short of N full windows :( 18:07:43 petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:08:42 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:08:48 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.58.83] has joined #lisp 18:09:36 -!- VelcroMan [VelcroMan@83.209.145.182] has left #lisp 18:09:54 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-ff2fc100-74.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:12:15 -!- codelurker [~codelurke@66.71.230.223] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 18:13:46 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-ff2fc100-74.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 18:18:08 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-217-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:24 -!- leifw_ [~leif@ool-18bfe51c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:19:50 -!- valium97582 [~daniel@187.57.19.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:25:45 CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 18:32:09 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 18:32:09 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 18:32:09 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 18:32:43 -!- HET2 [~diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:33:37 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslar231.osnanet.de] has left #lisp 18:34:13 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:35:19 -!- vokoda`` is now known as vokoda 18:35:23 -!- vokoda [~user@host86-150-85-201.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 18:35:23 vokoda [~user@unaffiliated/vokoda] has joined #lisp 18:35:39 kmwallio [~kmwallio@host113-70.brownlie.fit.edu] has joined #lisp 18:36:03 DrNick258 [~DrNick@138-38-157-211.wireless.bath.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 18:36:07 -!- DrNick258 [~DrNick@138-38-157-211.wireless.bath.ac.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 18:36:12 DrPee [~DrPee@138-38-157-211.wireless.bath.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 18:36:32 Soulman1 [~knute@166.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:36:43 I'm getting an "error reading form" error, what does it mean? 18:37:12 it means there was an error while reading a form 18:37:22 :) 18:38:16 -!- timepilot [~timepilot@66.71.230.223] has quit [Quit: timepilot] 18:38:24 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:41:29 Adlai_ [~leif@ool-18bfe51c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:48 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:51:39 -!- EarlGray [~EarlGray@91.145.224.21] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:51:45 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.58.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:52:42 EarlGray [~EarlGray@91.145.224.21] has joined #lisp 18:53:28 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.115.197.198] has joined #lisp 18:53:36 -!- delYsid` [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:54:37 bsod1 [~osa1@188.56.213.25] has joined #lisp 18:56:48 -!- EarlGray [~EarlGray@91.145.224.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:58:24 -!- bencc [~user@bzq-84-111-72-192.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:59:26 bencc [~user@bzq-84-111-72-192.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:50 Posterdati [~tapioca@host127-230-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:08:02 hi 19:12:48 Hello 19:13:05 stipet [~user@c83-253-30-176.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:14:53 WonTu [~WonTu@p57B569BF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:07 -!- WonTu [~WonTu@p57B569BF.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 19:15:22 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:15:40 francogrex [~user@109.130.90.44] has joined #lisp 19:24:26 EarlGray [~EarlGray@88.154.11.231] has joined #lisp 19:28:03 Caffeine [~satanama@cable-10-157-244.b2b2c.ca] has joined #lisp 19:28:28 -!- Guest1723 [~satanama@cable-10-157-244.b2b2c.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:28:33 -!- Caffeine is now known as Guest16365 19:29:05 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-10-39.iburst.co.za] has left #lisp 19:31:21 biTT [~frinnn@i59F63572.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:32:12 mrBliss [~user@83.101.78.251] has joined #lisp 19:32:25 -!- mrBliss [~user@83.101.78.251] has left #lisp 19:32:33 -!- Guest16365 [~satanama@cable-10-157-244.b2b2c.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:33:10 -!- _ism [~frinnn@i59F6123C.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:33:31 Guest16365 [~satanama@cable-10-157-244.b2b2c.ca] has joined #lisp 19:34:40 -!- osoleve_cig is now known as osoleve 19:35:49 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.67.206.205] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:36:45 cmm [~cmm@109.67.206.205] has joined #lisp 19:38:38 -!- hcb [~anon@174-30-212-147.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:38:39 hcb [~anon@unaffiliated/hcb] has joined #lisp 19:38:42 hargettp [~anonymous@96.237.125.113] has joined #lisp 19:44:40 '(Hello) 19:45:28 => (HELLO) 19:46:18 mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:56 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 19:47:16 land of lisp p.77 line 9: /s/describe-path/describe-paths 19:47:26 or is it? 19:47:29 -!- Guest16365 [~satanama@cable-10-157-244.b2b2c.ca] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 19:48:06 no 19:48:09 my bad :) 19:48:25 not line 9, line 12 i mean 19:50:29 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:50:59 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:02:27 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 20:09:15 lundis [~lundis@dyn56-121.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 20:14:33 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.90.44] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:17:34 v0|d [~user@213.232.33.243] has joined #lisp 20:18:54 tirinim. 20:19:09 -!- adhoc [~adhoc@ppp118-210-132-42.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:20:15 hi 20:20:48 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:20:50 alexsuraci: ah suraci suraci malanova che faci? 20:21:10 -!- sm` [s@77.29.16.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:22:38 in this channel we only speak lisp 20:23:53 -!- hcb [~anon@unaffiliated/hcb] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:24:20 "stassats: And yet you didn't, even with your overly literal mind!" 20:24:38 -!- stipet [~user@c83-253-30-176.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:24:49 stassats: (suraci:malanova "che faci?") 20:25:46 Hexstream: that was LOOP 20:25:54 sm` [s@77.29.19.136] has joined #lisp 20:26:13 (finep stassat) 20:27:06 Any sufficiently unstructured syntax is indistinguishable from LOOP. 20:29:23 I'm trying to write a function that print every combination of each element from two lists. 20:29:27 xiackok [~xiackok@94.54.81.99] has joined #lisp 20:30:00 e.g. '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6) - > (1 4) (1 5) (1 6) (2 4) ... 20:30:01 http://paste.lisp.org/display/118462 20:30:05 cartesian product? 20:30:08 i have this 20:30:41 but it freezes 20:31:11 I can't find the problem 20:31:21 i am with lisp one day only but wouldn't this be a basic mapping task? 20:32:14 DrPee: is that a homework? 20:33:28 no 20:33:34 its a question from a lisp book 20:33:52 what book? 20:34:14 Basic Lisp Programming 20:34:23 doesn't look like a great book, if it taught you to write the code you showed 20:34:45 can you suggest a good one? 20:35:03 Practical Common Lisp 20:35:53 DrPee: http://paste.lisp.org/display/118462#1 20:35:54 LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-117-4.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:19 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:39:23 Xach, therep? 20:40:11 Hello 20:41:11 DrPee: http://paste.lisp.org/display/118462#2 20:41:25 drdo: !!!! 20:41:38 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 20:41:42 knew it :) 20:41:50 ak70 [~ak70@46.11.10.227] has joined #lisp 20:42:37 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:42:55 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:10 I like that version too :) 20:44:16 deepfire: what's up? 20:49:39 valium97582 [~daniel@187.57.19.237] has joined #lisp 20:55:34 -!- ch077179 [~urs@adsl-84-226-67-192.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 20:56:03 vokoda` [~user@host109-153-37-176.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:56:10 pmurias [~pawel@89-78-165-237.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 20:56:27 stipet [~user@c83-253-30-176.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:56:58 -!- stipet [~user@c83-253-30-176.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Client Quit] 20:58:08 DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has joined #lisp 20:58:24 -!- vokoda [~user@unaffiliated/vokoda] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:59:17 -!- kmwallio [~kmwallio@host113-70.brownlie.fit.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:59:26 -!- ak70 [~ak70@46.11.10.227] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:59:42 is there support for embedding perl in lisp? (and interop) 20:59:50 s/support/some library/ 20:59:55 pmurias: I haven't seen anything like that. 21:00:09 pmurias: did you have a particular task in mind when doing that? 21:00:14 stipet [~user@c83-253-30-176.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:01:50 calling Perl 5 functions from the Perl 6 i want to compile to common lisp 21:01:59 -!- DrPee [~DrPee@138-38-157-211.wireless.bath.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:02:00 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:03:02 pmurias: I think you would have to make it yourself. 21:03:18 there's a perl-in-lisp project listed on cliki 21:03:26 i have no idea what the state is. 21:03:42 http://stuartsierra.com/software/perl-in-lisp 21:05:12 Xach: on that hello-world example that you used to show how Buildapp works, what is the size of the generated hello-world executable? 21:05:44 rien: dozens of megabytes. 21:06:35 murilasso [~murilasso@152.179.64.166] has joined #lisp 21:06:35 some 3 dozens or 10 dozens? 21:07:24 a gross of megabytes 21:07:25 Anyone can explain the recent (?) surge (?) of popularity of Clozure CL?... it seems to get mentioned all over the place. I guess it just happens to be high-quality?... How does it compare to SBCL? 21:07:40 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 21:07:40 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 21:07:40 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 21:07:45 recent is the last three years? 21:08:06 Perhaps. I guess I haven't lurked much until recently. 21:08:08 Hexstream: different sweetspot, and definitely on the pareto curve. 21:08:14 Hexstream: I just use it because SBCL doesn't work very well in OS X 21:08:16 it got popular when it was ported to x86 21:08:17 since oracle has been fucking up the javasphere, I've seen less interest in clojure. 21:08:28 before that it only ran on x86-64 and ppc 21:08:32 stassats: Oh, so that would be the turning point. 21:08:34 -!- sm` [s@77.29.19.136] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:08:52 doh. dyslex'd again. 21:09:02 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.56.213.25] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:09:49 Hexstream: same for me as what drdo said 21:09:53 Is "dyslex" the conversion of a token stream to a character stream? 21:10:58 It's the conversion of a stream of correctly-spelled words to a stream of slightly less correctly-spelled words, roughly. 21:14:04 sm` [s@77.28.120.130] has joined #lisp 21:15:01 I have a friend that doesn't believe that Lisp can be so powerful as to run e.g. python in it. then I said there's CLPython but now that I'm checking it out I see that it takes python code inside a string. 21:15:21 Genosh [~Genosh@119.Red-79-145-47.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:28 but there's a way to have a reader macro that will take python code inside say #P{ python code here } right? 21:15:31 or something? 21:15:54 The idiomatic lisp way would be to make an s-expression syntax for Python. 21:15:55 no idea. 21:15:59 rien: sure. 21:16:01 Your friend believe that only certain programming languages are able to implement other languages? 21:16:25 rien: the cpython reader takes strings, too. 21:16:28 he never heard of Turing 21:16:32 right but he just wants a proof of concept, he wants to see that it's possible to have another language inside lisp but not have it inside a string (even though it's a silly difference) 21:16:34 What does he/she think python is implemented in? 21:17:02 joshe: no, it's just that I told him that with lisp you can have DSL that look like anything, not necessarily sexprs 21:17:04 it isn't clear to me what distinction you're drawing here. 21:17:04 joshe: hah! you beat me to it. 21:17:12 Oh, your friend is interested in the lisp reader. 21:17:21 you want the python syntax outside the context of a "" pair? 21:17:25 yes 21:17:27 basically 21:17:41 as if lisp and another language could co-exist in the same code 21:17:43 Doesn't cpython have a readtable that can do that? 21:17:44 rien, have you shown your friend LOOP? 21:17:49 well, you could define reader syntax for that, I guess. 21:17:50 I've never used it 21:18:01 tic: He said he doesn't want an s-expressions syntax. 21:18:03 Er, CLPython, not CPython. 21:18:07 rien: i have lisp and Java coexist in the same project. Integrated. 21:18:10 Hexstream, LOOP isn't S-exp. 21:18:11 (Which is of course absurd, if you ask me). 21:18:11 but I don't see any obvious reason for it. 21:18:21 tic: it's not? 21:18:26 tic: yes but he'd like to see a proof of concept that a whole other turing-complete language not sexpr based can live along lisp code, and not inside a string 21:18:39 tic: Very "denatured" and unstructured s-expression, but s-expression no less. 21:18:48 stassats, not compared to DO. My point: you can do things that don't look like S-exps in Lisp. 21:18:48 rien: there are a bunch of languages that were prototyped in lisp. 21:18:51 Hexstream, right. 21:18:52 joshe: when I look at the clpython examples in github all the python code is inside "" 21:18:58 Haskell is syntax-sensitive and was prototyped in Lisp 21:18:59 smalltalk was in the beginning. prolog too. 21:19:15 I told him that the reason people don't do it often is because sexprs are better anyway 21:19:23 rien: google clpython readtable 21:19:36 rien: And you were right! 21:20:13 tic: what's s-exp then? because anything in lisp is a s-exp 21:20:30 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.67.206.205] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:20:30 stassats, I know that. 21:20:38 Hexstream: well he agrees that sexprs are great, but he thinks it's empty to say that lisp can implement other languages non-sexpr-based while at the same time nobody really cares about doing it, you see his point? 21:20:41 stassats, but compare the snakyness of DO to LOOP. 21:21:04 rien: no, i don't see his point. 21:21:11 but I don't see why you'd put a restriction on lisp that you don't put on python. ;) 21:21:21 cmm [~cmm@109.67.206.205] has joined #lisp 21:21:28 he thinks it's no strength to be able to do things the community doesn't care for and thus don't do 21:21:37 thus doesn't do* 21:21:48 rien: there's a first time for everything. 21:21:57 rien: so, if he feels like it, he should do it. 21:21:59 If you rely on the community to write all your code for you, then that is indeed true. 21:22:06 what community? 21:22:32 joshe: he doesn't want to rely on the community, he just wants to see a proofof concept so that he trusts that it is possible, I guess. 21:22:37 That graph of living entities with edges to lisp. 21:22:38 right, what community... 21:22:55 Then like I said, google "clpython readtable" 21:23:09 rien: well, haskell, smalltalk, and prolog are standing proofs of concept that proove it is possible. 21:23:21 That should lead you to an example of mixed CL and Python code in a repl 21:23:35 joshe: clpython readtable returns incredible results (the commonlisp mail list) 21:24:01 joshe: I'm guessing they made the trigger string for the reader macro be LF+def ? 21:24:40 Fade: what does that mean? that there are ways to write smalltalk, haskell, prolog inside lisp code? 21:24:58 haskell prolog and smalltalk were build in lisp originally 21:25:03 before they became self hosting. 21:25:06 rien: http://clsql.b9.com/manual/sql.html#id473732 21:26:06 stassats: that would only convince him if it was the other way around, i.e. if he could write SQL inside lisp code and have it understand it 21:26:07 Fade: and java-script 21:26:16 but I guess the clpython readtable example is good enough 21:26:17 aye 21:26:22 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 21:26:39 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:26:52 rien: clsql is about writing SQL inside lisp. 21:27:00 Fade: is it the same to say smalltalk was built in lisp and to say that one can have smalltalk inside lisp code? 21:27:11 *cmm* is suddenly reminded of an old joke involving a venereologist and the phrase "ok then, young man, drop your pants and show me that alleged friend of yours" 21:27:16 vandemar [nonserviam@2001:470:1f10:56b::4] has joined #lisp 21:27:32 i'm not sure what it means to have something 'inside' lisp code 21:27:39 ehu: what I see is a repl and inputs being sexpr and output being valid SQL, not the other way around 21:27:53 Fade: just like cpython readtable: http://common-lisp.net/pipermail/clpython-devel/2009-August/000175.html 21:28:06 clsql supports [ .. sql code .. ] blocks. 21:28:16 cmm: I was the one trying to convince him that there's no need to keep inventing other languages 21:28:19 TheRebutler [~TheRebutl@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:28:31 rien: You could write an SQL parser that builds an s-expressions representation of the statement... 21:28:59 rien: Actually, inventing new (domain-specific) languages is a pretty common practice in lisp. 21:29:32 -!- faux [~user@c-219c70d5.035-128-67626713.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:29:40 that's what I told him, that in lisp one writes a DSL and then solves the problem in that newly created language, but that most of the time it'll still be sexp based because that's just more powerful and easier to manipulate 21:29:51 If you say there's no need to invent new general-purpose languages however, that wouldn't be that far off from the truth, as far as I'm concerned ;P 21:30:20 i hate that "in lisp one writes a DSL and then solves the problem" bullshit 21:30:40 stassats: How is it bullshit? I do that all the time... 21:30:46 Hexstream: yeah that's what I mean, but more than that, for instance Erlang, you could say it has a specific purpose (concurrent programs) but tat the same time, couldn't they just make lisp better and have lisp do what Erlang does, without the need to invent a whole new language? 21:30:54 Though that may not be the case of most lispers. 21:31:04 deepfire: the suspense is killing me 21:31:16 it's not buillshit, it's just fashionable and cool to say things are bullshit when it's obvious they aren't :P 21:31:38 What are you guys talking about, that makes too much sense 21:31:39 iirc, Erlang is one of the languages that was prototyped in lisp. 21:31:40 s/tat/at/ 21:31:49 Just go with raw sql query strings 21:31:52 or was that only an indirect lisp in teh sense that they used prolog? 21:32:00 why didn't they keep it there? (I know the answer, because people don't like sexps...) 21:32:00 Hexstream: in lisp one just solves the problem, without calling it DSL, or any other newfangled buzzword 21:32:18 -!- TheRebutler [~TheRebutl@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:32:41 stassats: no no, you must say EMBED and DSL, all the time, so it looks like it's very complicated 21:32:41 stassats: I remember immediately after reading ANSI Common Lisp I thought I would spend about 50% of my time writing custom macros and utility functions and the other 50% actually, you know, getting stuff done. 21:32:49 -!- Bronsa [~BRACE@host156-180-dynamic.2-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:32:51 you can think of DSL as a buzzword or you can think it of a simple way to name something 21:33:24 rien: and what's a dsl? 21:33:33 rien: at any rate, it was Alan Kay who made the quip that lisp isn't a programming language, it's a building material. 21:33:40 it's not a simple way, it's a confusing name which doesn't illuminate anything 21:33:55 drdo: a language in which it's trivial to solve a problem? something like that. 21:34:11 like (solve-the-problem)? 21:34:18 It's trivial to solve a lot of problems in CL 21:34:18 stassats: well, it's a less inflamatory way of reiterating greenspun's 10th rule. 21:34:21 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:34:22 So i guess CL is a DSL 21:34:23 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.80.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:34:26 stassats: Depends. For any sufficiently "vertical" problem, there's one or more great DSL's you can make or reuse that will very significantly improve your productivity, if it's high-quality enough. 21:34:29 it's awesome how people can't agree on anything here :) 21:34:30 DrZ131 [~DrZ@138-38-157-211.wireless.bath.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 21:34:38 stassats: yes, like (dwim) 21:34:40 -!- DrZ131 [~DrZ@138-38-157-211.wireless.bath.ac.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 21:34:54 if people would agree, then there would be nothing to discuss 21:35:00 spacemonkey [~spacemonk@138-38-157-211.wireless.bath.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 21:35:02 rien: I have no idea what DSL is supposed to mean 21:35:02 drdo: CL is a DSL for a lot of list-related problems, for instance. 21:35:07 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:35:10 Does DSL mean not turing complete? 21:35:17 -!- spacemonkey [~spacemonk@138-38-157-211.wireless.bath.ac.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 21:35:21 SqubaSteve [~SqubaStev@138-38-157-211.wireless.bath.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 21:35:23 DSL means cool and hip 21:35:24 Domain-Specific Language. 21:35:31 drdo: CL is a DSL for a lot of list-related problems, for instance. I'm sure you have an idea. 21:35:31 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.80.150] has joined #lisp 21:35:34 Hexstream: That was very informative 21:35:41 drdo: it's not necessarily turing complete. 21:35:44 rien: No, i don't have an idea 21:35:54 And if that's the case, why call it DSL if every language is a DSL? 21:35:58 Just call it language 21:36:37 Not all languages are DSLs... 21:36:40 every language can be a DSL if there's a problem for which it fits very well 21:37:03 Hexstream: Then what is a DSL? How can i tell if a language is a DSL? 21:37:11 If a language is incredibly well-suited to a specific task and wildly unsuitable to any other types of tasks, then it's a DSL. 21:37:32 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:37:38 *rien* smells intelectual dishonesty or silly devil's advocate-ness 21:37:46 Whatever well-suited means 21:38:10 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:38:11 A DSL is narrow. It's domain-specific. It makes trade-offs that wouldn't make sense for most problems to accommodate a very specific set of problems. 21:38:22 Hexstream: can you give an example of how you write a DSL in Lisp? 21:38:26 If you think DSL means nothing, then you've never seen a good DSL. 21:39:10 stassats: If you like wading through piles of undocumented low-quality code, you can have a look at some of my libraries. 21:39:32 DSL may mean something, but that's not what the majority of lisp programs are doing 21:39:36 Hold on, I'll make a list of my undocumented uncleaned DSL libraries. 21:39:59 stassats: No, definitely not. 21:40:22 stassats: I agree with you now 21:40:29 Hexstream: I just get very angry when people start throwing around buzzwords 21:40:42 drdo: and then you play devil's advocate? 21:41:22 drdo: It's not because something is sometimes, or even oftentimes, or even most times used as a buzzword that it's inherently meaningless. 21:41:29 #lisp is the channel for cantankerous geezers. 21:41:52 Fade: are those buzzwords? 21:42:00 balooga [~00u4440@pool-173-55-252-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:42:00 DSL is how some people get internets. 21:42:04 The latest one i looked up was "dynamic programming" 21:42:18 Which, for what i understood, means not writing bad algorithms 21:42:24 *from 21:42:26 I spent the last 4 years making many DSLs, so believe me, I'm not throwing "DSL" around as a buzzword gimmick. Or don't believe me and wait till I cleaned up and documented all my DSLs and you'll see the value inherent in them. 21:42:29 i think you can buzz any word given the right audience. 21:42:37 Liquid is a good example of a DSL : http://wiki.shopify.com/UsingLiquid 21:43:14 i guess autolisp is the usual canonical example of a domain specific language. 21:43:19 drdo: dynamic programming is a misnomer 21:43:23 frodation [~user@p54B29C72.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:43:37 I use it at work and that enables me to have non-programmers be able to do some of the work that I otherwise would be the only one able to do 21:44:19 is that a https://gist.github.com/767289 DSL? 21:44:25 stassats: Can you elaborate? 21:44:53 stassats: I'd say so 21:45:12 if that's implementing APL in lisp then absolutely 21:45:23 it's a DSL for matrix/vector/whatever APL is good at 21:45:33 see it's not so hard :) 21:45:49 it was a DSL for a joke 21:46:00 nonetheless 21:46:12 i wouldn't ever use  n  (1 2 3 4 5): (evenp n) 21:46:18 HQ9+ is a DSL and a joke 21:47:12 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:47:20 and DSL is a language in the programming domain? 21:47:29 i meant CL 21:47:30 what was the original question? 21:47:50 stassats: uhm words like "domain" can mean many things. care to rephrase? 21:48:14 the domain of CL is programming 21:48:33 the domain of HQ9+ is producing jokes 21:48:43 yes 21:48:45 both are right 21:48:47 I don't understand how DSL has any meaning 21:48:54 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:49:00 we know that. 21:49:25 If every language is a DSL, then how is the term DSL useful? 21:49:27 drdo: everything is a DSL 21:49:41 drdo: every language *may* be a DSL for *different* applications 21:49:41 stassats: Well, that's exactly why it doesn't have any meaning 21:49:45 bad english is a DSL for international communications 21:49:52 drdo: clueless bosses pay people more when they use fancy terms. 21:50:33 sykopomp: I know, the hiring procedure seems to be to sort the candidates by the number of buzzwords you can put on your resume 21:50:48 please help, I'm testing the land of lisp page 111 example on circular list: I'm running sbcl repl with slime, but setf instruction freezes the repl :( 21:51:04 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:51:06 Posterdati: try it on the terminal 21:51:11 drdo: My previous job involved me going down a prepared list of acronyms and saying what each one stood for. 21:51:12 without emacs 21:51:24 rien: with terminal? 21:51:24 Posterdati: probably because you are trying to print a circular list 21:51:24 obut 20-30 acronyms and library/app names. 21:51:26 sykopomp: lol 21:51:37 Posterdati: yeah, use only the command line and not emacs, and see if it crashes 21:51:49 ok 21:51:53 Posterdati: (setf *print-circle* t) 21:51:59 and don't do what rien asked 21:52:02 hcb [~user@unaffiliated/hcb] has joined #lisp 21:52:03 drdo: if he's doing setf he's probably trying to make a list circular 21:52:11 I unfortunately forgot what UML stood for, at the time, but at least remembered what it is. 21:52:12 rien: making one is no problem 21:52:21 the problem is the P in REPL is Print 21:52:30 binod [~binod@88-134-63-162-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 21:52:44 drdo: from what he said I thought it was crashing when he linked the last element to the first 21:53:23 rien: it is trying to print an infinite list :) 21:53:26 sykopomp: universal modelling language ? 21:53:30 oh then yeah 21:53:31 REPL is a buzzword 21:53:36 _danb_ [~user@124-149-166-62.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 21:53:36 no it ain't 21:53:40 Posterdati: did you see my message? 21:53:44 stassats is a buzzword 21:53:49 i sure am 21:54:01 stassats: on console sbcl I saw 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3... 21:54:06 buzzword is a buzzword. 21:54:07 *Fade* cues up the buzzcocks 21:54:09 valium97582: oh of course, how could I forget! Shame on me. I'd been wondering what it stood for since that interview happened well over a year ago. 21:54:10 stassats: on slime repl nothing 21:54:15 what you hate are "labels" , not "buzzwords". you're confusing the two 21:54:22 -!- az [~az@p4FE4F61E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 21:54:30 Posterdati: did you do (setf *print-circle* t), as i said? 21:54:32 sykopomp: UML is amazing 21:54:49 stassats: obviously not 21:54:53 stassats: :) 21:54:53 if you want to waste time drawing something no one will ever look at or understand 21:54:54 rien: buzzword is an unnecessary label 21:55:09 drdo: or care for trying to understand it :) 21:55:16 i have installed clisp in my ubuntu system from synaptic package manager. i am trying to use SDRAW but is not working , what can be the reason? for (sdraw ' (alpha (barvo) charlie)) i get *** - EVAL: undefined function SDRAW 21:55:16 The following restarts are available: 21:55:18 stassats: we agree there. 21:55:25 rien: Well, i'm sure you could understand it if you tried hard enough 21:55:31 stassats: lol it works!!! 21:55:34 stassats: thanks 21:55:43 The problem is that it's supposed to make it easy to understand 21:55:43 drdo: oh anyone could, but nobody cares. 21:55:48 that's been my experience 21:55:56 But it's only easy to understand if it's small 21:56:05 binod: You need to load sdraw, and after you load it, you need to call the function with the proper name. 21:56:05 And if it's small, it's easy to understand anyway so you don't need it 21:56:07 anyhow, this conversation is kind of moot, considering that everybody knows lisp isn't popular enough to use a noun modifier like 'buzz' in any feature it posesses. 21:56:22 stassats: I didn't read the explanation :) 21:56:29 is that what makes people cantankerous here? 21:56:35 a black box with a "Magic" label on it is easy to understand 21:56:55 UML is a good name for a virus, isn't it? 21:56:59 stassats: not so much 'unnecessary', but 'vague and inspecific, mostly meant to sound good without communicating anything precise, and thus avoid criticism' 21:57:04 Xach, how can load sdraw? 21:57:09 sykopomp: and misused 21:57:14 Xach, how can i load sdraw? * 21:57:20 yeah 21:57:27 sykopomp: Might as well not communicate in the first place if what you are communicating is meaningless 21:57:37 binod: I don't know, I've never used it. 21:57:40 binod: How did you hear about it? 21:58:15 Xach, i am refering the book "a gentle introduction to symbolic compuatation.." it is there 21:58:24 -!- Adlai_ [~leif@ool-18bfe51c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:58:41 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Lisp/sdraw/ 21:58:42 az_ [~az@p4FE4F61E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:49 drdo: tell that to the entire marketing industry. Maybe they'll listen. 21:58:56 -!- az_ [~az@p4FE4F61E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:59:12 and I'll stop getting offers to buy viagra and replica rolexes in the mail. 21:59:21 sykopomp: marketing industry is producing what people want to hear 21:59:24 Adlai_ [~leif@ool-18bfe51c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:30 stassats: indeed 21:59:32 I love the late night commercials 21:59:51 They are so obviously full of bullshit that it starts being hilarious 22:00:08 -!- stipet [~user@c83-253-30-176.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Goodnight] 22:01:16 sheeponsoma [~sheeponso@186.213.43.248] has joined #lisp 22:01:33 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@96.237.125.113] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 22:01:46 hargettp [~anonymous@96.237.125.113] has joined #lisp 22:01:48 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@96.237.125.113] has quit [Client Quit] 22:02:33 And also those "Free of X" where X is something that wouldn't be there unless they purposefully put it there 22:03:13 "lisp is Free of Free()" 22:04:06 binod: Ok, did you load the sdraw lisp file? 22:04:37 Xach, i don't know how to load that file too. i am kind of newbie in lisp 22:05:05 binod: (load "thisisthefilename.lisp") 22:05:17 binod: Maybe you could pick something simpler to start, then? 22:05:36 -!- Adlai_ [~leif@ool-18bfe51c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:05:48 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 22:06:39 (load "sdraw.generic") (sdraw:sdraw '(1 2 (10)) => some cons cells art 22:06:53 There. I wrote 7 DSLs: http://paste.lisp.org/display/118464 Sorry but DSL isn't a buzzword to me ;P 22:08:48 stassats, (load "sdraw.generic") 22:08:49 *** - LOAD: A file with name sdraw.generic does not exist ... did i do anything wrong or i am not following properly the one you are saying? 22:08:56 Hexstream: I think you're letting stassats get under your skin a bit too much. :) 22:09:11 binod: well... did you get that file? 22:09:17 Hexstream: The problem is that everything is a DSL, so saying something is a DSL tells me absolutely nothing 22:09:22 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 22:09:39 speaking of buzzwords. I've been trying to understand Cells. 22:09:54 kenny's cells? 22:09:58 yeah. 22:10:22 cells, that thing where slot values can be expressions that depend on other slots? 22:10:29 stassats, no i didn't get.. means it is not there during installation? i mean i have to get it from external sources? 22:10:29 yes, that. 22:10:49 binod: i pasted a link containing that file, did you see it? 22:11:06 -!- sm` [s@77.28.120.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:11:14 sykopomp: and? 22:11:51 I'm trying to understand why it's a reasonable solution to the problem it claims to solve, I guess. More concretely, I'm trying to understand the (completely undocumented) API. 22:11:52 The part i didn't understand is how you trying to understand Cells relates to buzzwords :P 22:12:00 stassats, sorry i will check it 22:12:11 drdo: it's Dataflow Programming 22:12:30 Oh, ok then, proceed 22:12:48 That sounds important 22:13:18 Fade: Not stassats, drdo actually. 22:13:42 *stassats* sings "dataflows keep following on my head" 22:13:49 I just wish I had more perspective around the problem Cells is trying to solve, and could see other solutions people have implemented to try and solve it. 22:13:51 drdo: Not everything is a DSL. I made about 25 libraries, and there are 7 specific ones that I consistently think of as DSLs, and none of the others. 22:13:51 rofl 22:13:57 (stassats) 22:14:15 s/following/falling/ 22:14:25 -!- murilasso [~murilasso@152.179.64.166] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:14:26 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:14:27 no, following is much better 22:14:33 oops 22:14:37 I read "flowing" 22:14:41 sykopomp: when kenny started singing about cells 24/7 was about the time i abandoned nntp. what problem does it purport to solve? 22:15:08 every conceivable 22:15:09 Fade: The problem of program complexity when presented with lots of changing data. 22:15:14 sykopomp: When i read about it, it looked useful for GUIs 22:15:19 so basically, what stassats said. 22:15:25 Fade: the problem of manually managing data dependencies 22:15:35 so, state 22:15:44 drdo: While we're at it, you could say that there's no difference between a "library", a "framework" and an "application". 22:15:47 Yes, and dependencies between state changes, I guess. 22:15:53 everything is mutable 22:15:57 Hexstream: is there? 22:16:03 sykopomp: did you also check out computed-class? 22:16:05 Hexstream: The first two at least, there' absolutely no difference 22:16:29 sm` [s@77.29.16.18] has joined #lisp 22:16:36 adeht: no! I'm looking for perspective here. Let me look that up. 22:16:47 sykopomp: there's also garnet 22:17:11 stassats: While we're at it, you could say everything is atoms (and whatever makes them move). So why the need for all those other words to designate specific arrangements of atoms?... 22:17:11 why is it that there's no lisp community? 22:17:13 adeht: well, KR. 22:17:18 Hexstream: "Application" is also not distinguishable from "Library" in the kinds of applications i like to use 22:17:31 adeht: I remember looking into KR, but I don't remember it doing tricks like these. 22:17:37 Hexstream: some things are lists 22:17:43 sykopomp: yes, kr constraints 22:17:49 rien: That makes no sense considering talking to a lisp community 22:17:49 part of it, admittedly, is that I don't understand how to use Cells quite yet. 22:17:51 aha 22:17:57 stassats: Damn, damn, damn your overly literal mind!! 22:18:00 *considering you 22:18:06 could someone help me understand why the sbcl repl is giving me this warning: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/317900/ in response to the following code? http://paste.pocoo.org/show/317902/ 22:18:13 drdo: every time I refer to a lisp community here stassats says there isn't one 22:18:43 drdo-style: "But what's a community?!?" 22:18:49 adeht: Are there other 'solutions' to the problem Cells is meant to solve that don't involve placing recalculated constraints on object slots? 22:19:09 well, stassats says "what lisp community?" 22:19:36 Hexstream: A community is more than one, at least that's how i think of it 22:19:46 sykopomp: I guess you can consider purely functional programming as a kind of "solution" 22:19:55 A collection with more than one element 22:19:59 I always took that as a droll comment on the seemingly severe case of NIH syndrome that seems to purvade lispy people. 22:20:02 adeht: in what sense? 22:20:19 drdo: I have 2 arms. That's a community. 22:20:21 Where every member has some property 22:20:30 Hexstream: Sure it is 22:20:33 Hexstream: i have two x86 cores 22:20:44 It's the Hexstream Limb's community 22:20:54 everybody seems to write their own html library. their own delimited continuations. their own database ORM. etc etc. 22:21:00 hence, 'no community' 22:21:07 otherwise, I have no idea 22:21:15 what's the NIH syndrome? 22:21:16 sykopomp: in that you (conceptually, but not necessarily implementationally) recompute the whole thing for every step.. e.g., I am reminded of "attribute grammars" 22:21:20 Fade: ^ 22:21:26 drdo: See? THAT is bullshit. Unlike DSLs (in the general case). 22:21:27 Fade: Those things are fun to write 22:21:31 Not Invented Here 22:21:35 sykopomp: of "functional reactive programming" 22:21:38 *or 22:21:41 not everyone writes their own reg-exp library, web-server, or web-client 22:21:46 ah 22:22:20 drdo: everybody writes those things in all languages, but other languages have communities 22:22:20 but it seems to me that quicklisp is changing that pretty, uhm, quickly. 22:22:26 Fade: also, what drdo said 22:22:35 sykopomp: in one post I remember KT mentioning how cells manages change, with some zen buddhism nonsense ;) 22:22:35 When everyone writes their own X, it might be because a sufficiently distinguished X is not yet available. 22:22:41 adeht: My impression right now is that this is simply a means of auto-generating observer methods. Is that too shallow of an assessment? 22:22:46 And a lot of times, the effort required to understand existing software coupled with the fact that it's fun to write 22:22:47 stassats: everyone writes their ownlinux though :) 22:22:51 The outcome is obvious 22:22:57 drdo: precisely! 22:23:06 Fade: my incentive to write my own something is if this something is broken beyond repair 22:23:10 -!- thom__ [~thom@pool-74-100-140-188.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:23:15 sykopomp: yes it is.. it has to manage cycles, caching, etc. 22:23:44 adeht: ahh. 22:23:54 i guess the corollary to the usual maxim is 'every lisp hacker is an island' 22:23:57 heh 22:24:19 sanduz2 [~sanduz2@75-149-186-118-Miami.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:20 At least you have a lot of islands to move to if you dislike your current island 22:24:21 who knows value of everything? 22:24:41 but it's pretty obvious that there's a lisp community around the free implementations of common lisp and scheme. 22:24:42 eval? 22:24:45 so idk. 22:24:49 Fade: where is it? here? 22:24:51 I just assumed it was a droll comment. 22:25:12 Xach, therep? 22:25:16 the traditional locality is c.l.l and #lisp and common-lisp.net and cliki 22:25:18 My incentive to write my own something is if this something is not at least as good or better than the ideal implementation I think I might possibly be able to make. 22:25:26 rien: Where is the community for some other language? 22:25:27 Fade: but would it stand up for me in a bar-fight? 22:25:44 drdo: scheme's is at #scheme. ruby's is at #ruby, etc 22:25:50 stassats: I think that would depend entirely on how annoying you are when you're drunk. ;) 22:25:55 rien: common lisp is at #lisp? 22:26:17 drdo: then why does stassats kep saying "what community?" 22:26:28 How should i know? I'm not stassats 22:26:31 #lisp is a bunch of people who can answer trivia questions from CLHS 22:26:36 rofl 22:26:37 rien: there is no community. 22:26:39 <3 22:26:42 lmao 22:26:53 can someone explain interpreters and stuff to me? im reading a book that requires a scheme interpreter, but the scheme site says you need to compile a bunch of stuff, my ubuntu software center has some weird "Empty Space R4RS package" and im generally just confused about what to do 22:27:01 There's no community, there's only sporadic alignments of interest in time and space. 22:27:02 stassats: hahaha 22:27:20 sanduz2: #scheme 22:27:31 stassats: Sometimes I get the impression that it's only 4-5 people who can answer such questions, a few dozen that ask them, and several hundred who put #lisp on autojoin so they can feel a little cooler. 22:27:46 stassats: You're the prototypical example of your stereotypical description ;P 22:27:49 sykopomp: I always wonder that when i join #lisp 22:27:49 I don't know what the cutoff point for 'bunch' is. 22:27:57 i'm not sure what to make of a world where this channel registers on the cool meter. 22:27:58 There's a lot of people in here 22:27:59 lol 22:28:03 sykopomp: i am all of the above 22:28:07 But i only ever talk to a dozen or so of them 22:28:24 vokoda`` [~user@host109-153-32-56.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:28:31 stassats, i loaded the "sdraw.generic" and the entered the list that you have given above as an example. but it waits and waits. it neither shows error nor displays the cons art. 22:28:51 i thought scheme was lisp, why is this channel only for common lisp? is it more popular than scheme now? 22:28:53 sykopomp: I get the feeling most people are here just to disagree with things and answer rhetorically 22:28:54 did you press ENTER? 22:28:58 adeht: KT put me on his shitlist for not getting the point of Cells. :( 22:29:10 -!- xristos [~x@2001:470:8859:cafe:20c:29ff:fe47:788] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 22:29:10 sanduz2, histerical raisins. 22:29:13 sanduz2: because that's how the stars are aligned 22:29:16 rien: haha 22:30:01 stassats, oh sorry one bracket was missing ..it worked. thanks a lot 22:30:03 that's because there is no point to say anything when you agree with something 22:30:05 xristos [~x@2001:470:8859:cafe:20c:29ff:fe47:788] has joined #lisp 22:30:22 sykopomp: didja read the manifesto? 22:30:27 -!- xristos is now known as Guest36828 22:30:45 so if i wanted to focus on AI would it be scheme or common lisp to go with? 22:30:50 Would be interesting if everyone in the channel said "I agree" everytime someone makes an assertion 22:30:52 adeht: I did. 22:30:55 sanduz2: none 22:31:04 drdo: you agree? 22:31:09 sanduz2: it would be language-you-know-best 22:31:12 -!- vokoda` [~user@host109-153-37-176.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:31:18 rien: with what? 22:31:34 we could write a bot to do that =DDD 22:31:34 I guess what I never quite understood was "How exactly does this work?" and "Why is it a better solution than other mechanisms that claim to solve the same problem?" 22:31:45 drdo: what I said and you laughed at 22:31:47 sheeponsoma: How? 22:32:01 rien: I just found it funny because that does happen a lot 22:32:08 Analysing the #lisp logs to see what % of people, on average, are fairly consistently logged but fairly consistently never say anything would be "interesting"... Not interesting enough that I'd be willing to do it, but anyway ;P 22:32:10 the Manifesto reads more like "Cells is awesome and it applies to everything with data, forever. Just because it does. Imagine spreadsheets." 22:32:27 sykopomp: well, there are also the examples 22:32:28 drdo: that's good enough for me :) 22:32:34 I recently coded a small irc lib we could use it to read each phrase in the channel , and if it ends with a period , it can reply to the user "I Agree." 22:32:49 adeht: all 1 of them. 22:32:58 let's not even imagine doing that 22:33:02 it started making much more sense to me when I started reading about Flapjax. 22:33:24 Hexstream: I'd like to have a characters / total logged time table for each user 22:33:26 being on KT's shitlist would be much more problematic if you had to, say, work with him. :) 22:33:40 Fade: I work -for- him. 22:33:43 it's even worse. 22:33:46 *Fade* chuckles 22:33:52 sykopomp: You might be better served by checking out FrTime for DrScheme  at least if you want to understand the how, I think the code's a lot nicer. And FrTime is basically the same thing as Cells. 22:34:09 write a windowmanager with cells. 22:34:26 bonus points if it's permanently tied to allegro 22:34:45 sellout: Thanks! Reading a paper about it now. 22:34:51 Fade: everytime i try to do that i just get bored with the X manuals 22:35:01 sellout: does FrTime work for you? 22:35:08 deepfire: whaat 22:35:14 sellout: i tried running the demos and they froze 22:35:14 pmurias: I haven't played with it in probably over 2 years. 22:35:38 i have to make a presentation about cells and reactive programming in lisp for uni 22:35:43 pmurias: Just before you asked, I was thinking "hrmm, I wonder if FrTime works with Racket." 22:36:50 it works for a few seconds 22:37:21 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:38:27 -!- bencc [~user@bzq-84-111-72-192.red.bezeqint.net] has left #lisp 22:41:17 -!- sheeponsoma [~sheeponso@186.213.43.248] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:42:46 sellout: any reactive programming stuff that you liked? (also in languages other then lisp) 22:42:56 Haha, reactive programming 22:42:59 Esterel? :P 22:43:00 Reactive Programming 22:43:02 (TM) 22:44:04 Reactive Programming: What happens when you break the test suite on friday night at 4:30pm. 22:44:29 French Reactionary Programming 22:44:33 i'm still churning out inert programming 22:45:45 pmurias: there's a couple really interesting blog posts on the nitty gritty details and corner cases of reactive programming on planet haskell. 22:46:47 the haskell folks are not satisfied with any FRP solution so far 22:47:31 This is hilarious, you people are actually serious with the whole Reactive Programming thing 22:47:34 pmurias: No  my interest/knowledge is purely because I know the author of FrTime, and we chat about language design stuff from time to time. I haven't really done anything with it. 22:47:46 Adlai_ [~leif@ool-18bfe51c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:49:09 drdo: any excuse to turn a conversation to the useful, constructive and even almost on topic. 22:49:10 drdo: You mean Dataflow? That might actually be the future ;P 22:49:11 -!- antoszka is now known as antoszka-temp 22:49:33 -!- antoszka-temp is now known as antoszka 22:49:45 Hexstream: I don't know what i mean, i'm just repeating 22:49:57 It seems you can completely discredit any concept for drdo by coming up with a name for it. Or something. 22:50:29 Oh come on, it's just funny how many X Programming people have come up with 22:50:52 Dynamically Reactive Programming <-- I'm coining this term 22:50:58 Sounds awesome 22:51:21 drdo: ...is there a reason not to be? 22:52:25 sykopomp: Most of them are very ill-defined and no one really knows what they are talking about 22:52:50 drdo: Really? 22:53:17 would angularjs qualify as reactive programming (it allows two-way binding between data structures and their rendering in html) 22:53:18 drdo: If you have a formula for computing the maximum meaningful number of different programming paradigms, I'm all ears. I guess it just "feels" wrong to you that there should be $actual-number of named paradigms rather than $actual-number - $arbitrary-number. 22:53:48 drdo: That's Blub thinking right there. And no need to tell me "that doesn't mean anything either", I got the pattern by now. 22:54:05 sellout: well, generalising dynamic programming to solving ODEs might be pushing it ;) 22:54:38 Hexstream: I just find it really funny that people come up with all these important sounding names to describe something really simple 22:55:17 Or names that mean so many things that no one really knows what it means 22:55:23 It just seems like you're flattering your ignorance... There's more to these topics (maybe not all of them, but some of them) than you think. 22:55:24 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA21139.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:56:41 Hexstream: Almost every time i go look up these things, it turns out to be something that i've been doing for a long time without thinking it was some special methodology 22:58:08 Same thing for me. But by digging further I usually find much more thorough and systematic treatments than the informal understanding I had, and it gives me terminology I can then use to communicate with other people instead of writing out everything in long with my non-standard terminology. 22:59:06 Ok, I acknowledge that that is useful 22:59:20 Besides, not everyone is a great programmer like you that can come up with an understanding of sizeable portions of these subjects all by themselves. 22:59:56 I wouldn't say i'm a great programmer, i'd say i'm a terrible one 23:00:09 just call everything "stuff" 23:00:22 *stassats* goes to the kitchen to eat some stuff 23:00:30 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.214.37] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 23:00:47 why is having a name for a commonly used thing a bad name? 23:01:23 It isn't 23:01:50 I regularly come upon "fancy" descriptions of things I've done informally for years, and it doesn't particularly anger me that someone else came up with a similar concept in 1965 and gave it a fancy name. Would it anger you less if it was a very boring name? What would you call "functional reactive programming", for instance? 23:02:05 -!- binod [~binod@88-134-63-162-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:02:40 I think there's a lot of reasearch that goes behind things like FRP that drdo is not considering. 23:03:01 Hexstream: The problem is that those terms get thrown around a lot by people who don't really understand them or what they are doing 23:03:35 Lisp is Imperative Inert Programming 23:03:37 Hexstream: there is something to it.. e.g., read about GPS (General Problem Solver) in PAIP ;) 23:03:56 Hexstream: but in general I agree with you 23:04:11 Well, don't assume every time a fashionable word is thrown around, that it's misuse. Especially in a community such as Common Lisp, I'd expect. This is no Java-land. 23:04:34 and Java is Repetitive Strain Injury Programming 23:04:54 it is indeed extremely verbose 23:04:55 Hexstream: I've just built this protective filter 23:04:56 -!- Soulman1 [~knute@166.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 23:05:01 I'd say Repetitive Brain Injury Programming ;P 23:05:27 Java is hilarious 23:05:46 It's a great mental exercise programming in java 23:05:50 If you get to not program in it, then yes. 23:06:06 Anyway, eatime! 23:06:34 Java developers were frustrated with how easy programming was 23:06:41 So they developed Java to make it more challenging 23:07:42 See also: Brainfuck, Umlambda 23:07:59 Unlambda is easy 23:08:04 Genosh|Off [~Genosh@119.Red-79-145-47.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:09:21 -!- vokoda`` [~user@host109-153-32-56.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:10:26 -!- Genosh [~Genosh@119.Red-79-145-47.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 23:10:32 -!- Genosh|Off is now known as Genosh 23:11:10 Good morning everyone! 23:11:24 Good 23:11 morning 23:12:39 ch077179 [~urs@adsl-84-226-67-192.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 23:15:15 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 23:15:36 heya, beach 23:16:44 delYsid` [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 23:16:52 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483A119.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:17:20 -!- delYsid` is now known as delYsid 23:17:39 -!- delYsid [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Changing host] 23:17:39 delYsid [~user@debian/developer/mlang] has joined #lisp 23:19:22 -!- huangjs [~user@p1043-ipbf2507marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has left #lisp 23:21:10 -!- ebzzry [~ebzzry@180.193.210.24] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:24:43 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A66B2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:26:10 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:30:25 sabalaba [~sabalaba@173-10-44-57-Michigan.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:33 frodatio` [~user@p54B29C72.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 23:30:39 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:31:02 pattern: your last subclause of the COND form is malformed. 23:31:32 thanks, serichsen 23:31:39 i figured it out 23:31:54 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.67.206.205] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:31:54 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:32:10 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:32:13 cmm [~cmm@109.67.206.205] has joined #lisp 23:32:29 -!- frodation [~user@p54B29C72.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:32:29 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-ff2fc100-74.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:32:29 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:33:26 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:33:42 Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 23:34:09 -!- loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.178] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:37:11 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:37:57 seangrov` [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:39:58 -!- sanduz2 [~sanduz2@75-149-186-118-Miami.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:40:07 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:42:54 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-ff2fc100-74.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 23:45:07 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 23:49:04 froggey [~froggey@2002:5200:bb48::820:18:7072] has joined #lisp 23:49:04 -!- froggey [~froggey@2002:5200:bb48::820:18:7072] has quit [Changing host] 23:49:04 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 23:58:33 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 23:58:38 froggey [~froggey@2002:5200:bb48::820:18:7072] has joined #lisp