00:00:00 Guys, is it possible to leave a message for someone, for when they later login? 00:00:05 I've never investigated that on Freenode. 00:01:47 There's memo service that shows messages to a user in the notice section. 00:01:56 Can't remember how to use it, though. 00:02:06 hi all 00:02:22 I have a weird problem with an SBCL executable core 00:02:25 elderK: Ah, talk to memoserv 00:02:25 http://paste.lisp.org/display/118080 00:02:37 Thanks antoszka 00:02:39 the code runs just fine when in SLIME 00:03:08 and I get the error on the paste when running the result of (save-lisp-and-die "remaining" :toplevel #'top-level :executable t) 00:03:17 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 00:04:31 that is, I get the expected out when doing (process-file "achievements.sxp" '(6 9)) in SLIME 00:04:54 but the error when doing `./remaining achievements.sxp 6 9` in the shell 00:05:26 -!- yan___ is now known as yan_ 00:07:28 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:10:43 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.80.213] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:13:01 retrry [~quassel@84.55.45.179] has joined #lisp 00:13:10 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-23-121-135.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 00:13:34 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:18:28 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-50-127-222.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:19:09 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:20:05 -!- peth [~anon@unaffiliated/peth] has quit [] 00:20:31 cafaro [~cafaro@unaffiliated/cafaro] has joined #lisp 00:20:43 -!- cafaro [~cafaro@unaffiliated/cafaro] has left #lisp 00:22:31 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 00:24:22 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.14.176] has joined #lisp 00:26:01 I'm at a bit of a loss for READ 00:26:27 If I do (let ((number 4)) (read ...)), whatever's READ doesn't seem to have access to number 00:26:35 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483B422.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:27:47 -!- unkanon [~unkanon@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:28:35 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:28:50 sea4ever [~sea@205.244.150.231] has joined #lisp 00:30:44 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:31:17 -!- rswarbrick [~user@95.151.20.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:31:37 seangrove: give a full code example 00:31:50 seangrove: Google lexical scope 00:32:41 drdo: Am I confusing it with dynamic scope? 00:33:02 ha, ok 00:33:13 seangrove: you may, yes 00:33:27 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:35:15 nowhere_man: http://paste.lisp.org/display/118083 00:35:55 first, you seem to want EVAL, not READ 00:36:09 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 00:37:23 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-174-12.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:37:32 Good first point :) 00:37:58 (defvar *number* 10) 00:38:03 (eval (read-from-string "(* *number* 4)")) 00:38:11 => 40 00:38:38 rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 00:39:19 you may also want to know that the rule of thumb when using EVAL is that if you use it, you're wrong ;-) 00:39:55 -!- retrry [~quassel@84.55.45.179] has quit [*.net *.split] 00:39:57 hmm, so it really is a scoping issue then? 00:40:09 I don't want to declare global var for this.. 00:41:21 it's not a global var, so it's OK 00:41:29 it's a dynamic one 00:41:58 nowhere_man: But if I had a gun to my head to make it work within a (LET, there'd be no way to do it? 00:42:44 it works with a let 00:43:13 (let ((*number* 12)) (eval (read-from-string "(* *number* 4)"))) => 48 00:44:00 hmm, that doesn't work for me 00:44:07 Are you sure you don't have it left over form your defvar ;) 00:48:53 Weird, the variable has to be defvar'd first 00:49:28 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@145.120.22.32] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:51:06 tcr [~tcr@77-20-119-246-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 00:52:16 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-76-102-192-48.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:53:09 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:53:39 -!- elderK [~k@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has left #lisp 00:53:49 retrry [~quassel@84.55.45.179] has joined #lisp 00:53:50 Hmm, I guess this isn't possible in CL 00:54:13 I was writing a tutorial to incorporate ruby-style strings, such as: 00:55:11 (let ((number 12)) #"I got a number, it's #{number}"#), where in the reader-macro #", anything in #{} would be executed as code 00:55:27 <_3b> you can always just add the LET around the form you want to eval 00:56:09 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A6311.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:56:09 *_3b* doesn't see why a reader macro would need eval though 00:56:30 _3b: How would that work? From my understanding, as I'm reading in #", it doesn't have access to the lexical env. created by the (LET there 00:56:42 *seangrove* is excited to be digging this deep 00:57:14 <_3b> right, so your reader macro should return something that does have access to the lexical scope when it is evaluated 00:57:34 So don't eval it on the spot then? 00:57:45 <_3b> maybe (format nil "I got a number, it's ~a" number) 00:57:47 <_3b> right 00:58:01 <_3b> the binding doesn't exist when the form is READ 00:58:15 Ah, right 00:58:20 <_3b> what would you expect it to do if it was let ((number (read)) #" #{number}")? 00:58:40 <_3b> you might find cl-interpol interesting 00:58:58 _3b: Interesting question 00:59:06 <_3b> pretty sure it implements something like that, just in some other language style rather than ruby 00:59:07 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 00:59:09 I guess I would be mixing up read-time and run-time there 01:00:04 I'll check out interpol now 01:00:26 Another weitz thing? 01:00:31 That guy seems crazy 01:04:31 is this channel for common lisp and scheme, or just one or the other? 01:04:51 -!- HET2 [~diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:04:57 ozzloy: topic 01:05:03 oh sorry 01:05:50 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 01:06:54 I'm nervous that this code is going to be well over my head. Hope it goes smoothly 01:11:50 -!- ASau [~user@95-24-172-135.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:12:42 -!- Intensity [ik2HgrTECt@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Quit: Intensity] 01:13:56 -!- tcr [~tcr@77-20-119-246-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:13:59 ASau [~user@95-24-172-135.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 01:17:57 -!- retrry [~quassel@84.55.45.179] has quit [*.net *.split] 01:18:35 Hello, I'm confusing with cl-ncurses. 01:18:49 I installed cl-ncurses with quicklisp 01:19:06 And I try to run some helloworld program. 01:20:12 http://paste.lisp.org/display/118084 01:20:20 Then I got an error message: 01:20:53 The value "hello,world" is not of type SB-SYS:SYSTEM-AREA-POINTER. 01:21:49 d3z [~user@a64.davidb.org] has joined #lisp 01:21:54 I search about it but I cant find any infomation. 01:22:19 -!- wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-98-234-185-107.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:23:16 I would assume that printw doesn't want lisp strings, but rather pointers to zero-terminated C chars 01:23:37 at least that is what the error message is trying to tell you (-: 01:23:53 IIRC, cl-ncurses uses CFFI, so you would have to read CFFI manual to see how to convert a lisp string into a C string. 01:23:53 looks like cl-ncurses is an ffi definition for the curses library. hm. 01:24:01 retrry [~quassel@84.55.45.179] has joined #lisp 01:24:08 Hmm... 01:24:10 -!- mg4001 [~mg4001@cpe-76-93-28-217.socal.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 01:24:34 might also want to check out that terminfo thing... it's probably a bit easier to use from lisp (: 01:24:39 On the internel, many page about cl-ncurses has sample-code like min. 01:24:51 s/min/mine/ 01:25:30 FWIW, cl-ncurses doesn't give an error. Doesn't seem to print hello,world anywhere either, though. 01:25:53 Pocket: I can't find much documentation or example code for it online 01:26:54 Now I'm working on sbcl with rlwrap(Read-line wrapper) on screen. So I try to work on pure terminal.. 01:27:51 (ok, I fail at finding the other terminal thing... hrmpf.) 01:28:49 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:29:20 I get this when trying to load cl-ncurses "/usr/lib/libncurses.so: file too short." :) 01:30:02 Hmm... I got same error on pure terminal.. 01:30:17 Pocket: that wouldn't make any difference. 01:30:34 Ok. 01:31:08 Half years befor I run same sample code on same environment, Then cl-ncurses works fine.. 01:31:15 ok, installing cl-ncurses from quicklisp doesn't give me an error either. 01:31:38 hm, could your asdf be loading the old system from back when you tried it last? 01:32:04 (asdf:component-pathname (asdf:find-system :cl-ncurses)) ; please 01:32:57 #P"/home/pocket/.sbcl/site/cl-ncurses_0.1.4/" 01:33:02 Hmm... 01:33:09 there you go (-: 01:33:22 best wipe your old asdf-install haunts (or back them up, then wipe) 01:33:57 Hmm..? 01:34:20 Should I rm .sbcl/site ? 01:34:42 tar zcf ~/.sbcl/asdf-install-pre-quicklisp.tar.gz ~/.sbcl/{site,systems} ; rm -rf ~/.sbcl/{site,systems} 01:34:46 "yeah" (-: 01:34:50 Thanks 01:35:07 (err 01:35:11 make that ; a &&) 01:35:27 don't want to wipe the dirs if anything goes wrong, maybe (: 01:35:44 has anyone written an 'autocurry' macro that lets you partially apply functions without explicity wrapping it in another function? i have a naive version, i'm curious to see how someone wrote it better 01:36:33 Hmmm 01:36:43 I alredy run this :) 01:37:26 haha 01:37:30 well, should be fine (-: 01:37:49 I'll mkdir it again. 01:38:00 no worries 01:38:11 for example: (def plus (a b) (+ a b)) could be fully evaluated if it was called like (plus 1 2), but returns a closure taking one arg if we do (plus 1). 01:38:24 if you didn't make any changes to your asdf-installed systems (any hacks you want to keep), then that's perfectly ok (: 01:38:36 otherwise, restore from backup time (: 01:39:11 Thanks. 01:39:29 anyway. with that dir out of the way, and a fresh lisp, ql should be able to find & install working ncurses 01:40:58 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:41:05 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:43:24 Ok!! 01:43:38 cl-ncurses works fine now :) 01:43:50 awesome. have fun with it (: 01:43:54 Thanks 01:44:10 oh, oh, oh. just one more thing 01:44:28 http://abhishek.geek.nz/code/cl-charms/ is, apparently, a successor to cl-ncurses (: 01:45:39 might check it out. point in favor: uses nice and sweet cffi, and not old and creaky uffi (: 01:50:05 kanru [~kanru@61-30-10-70.static.tfn.net.tw] has joined #lisp 01:50:24 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-24-4-147-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:51:28 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.40] has joined #lisp 01:52:26 oo 01:52:28 Thanks 01:52:39 I'll check it 01:54:35 incandenza [~quassel@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:33 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:59:30 -!- kmwallio [~kmwallio@pool-96-241-63-3.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:00:46 -!- retrry [~quassel@84.55.45.179] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:01:05 Thanks works fine cl-charms. 02:01:49 But I got some error(?) with my-code. 02:02:12 I write main function wich print out "Hello,world", And run it. 02:02:41 After that I change main function to print out "Cl-curses-test", And run it. 02:02:56 But I still get "Hello,world" on screen. 02:03:43 retrry [~quassel@84.55.45.179] has joined #lisp 02:03:49 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 02:05:33 Hmm 02:05:40 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 02:05:48 Starting to find the parens kinda normal now :) 02:05:56 Easier to see what is going on 02:09:06 Hmm.. 02:10:46 -!- retrry [~quassel@84.55.45.179] has quit [*.net *.split] 02:12:11 Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.228.5.70] has joined #lisp 02:12:32 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 02:12:37 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:12:51 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Client Quit] 02:13:12 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 02:13:47 zfx [1028@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 02:15:48 http://paste.lisp.org/display/118086 02:17:09 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:17:11 sohail1 [~Adium@76-10-147-73.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 02:20:31 -!- sohail1 [~Adium@76-10-147-73.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 02:23:29 retrry [~quassel@84.55.45.179] has joined #lisp 02:24:19 Ops... I called from my friends... I must go with him... 02:24:39 Thanks all :-) 02:25:04 I'll try to find out what's going on. 02:25:14 Bye! 02:25:20 gadek [~konrad@62.121.148.46] has joined #lisp 02:25:23 -!- Pocket [~masato@p3239-ipbf2310hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:25:24 -!- kanru [~kanru@61-30-10-70.static.tfn.net.tw] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:25:24 -!- seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:31:44 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 02:33:57 -!- retrry [~quassel@84.55.45.179] has quit [*.net *.split] 02:37:55 -!- myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:39:05 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:42:53 -!- Edward__ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-36-19.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 02:45:31 retrry [~quassel@84.55.45.179] has joined #lisp 02:48:37 -!- me345 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[~user@c-67-183-86-245.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:25:19 -!- retrry [~quassel@84.55.45.179] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:28:12 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:28:29 maus [~maus@222.253.99.65] has joined #lisp 04:28:54 Good afternoon! 04:30:14 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-116-202.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:30:31 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-130-38.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:31:13 retrry [~quassel@84.55.45.179] has joined #lisp 04:35:07 -!- retrry [~quassel@84.55.45.179] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:37:29 -!- gadek [~konrad@62.121.148.46] has quit [Quit: "fuck those stupid quit messages"] 04:37:34 retrry [~quassel@84.55.45.179] has joined #lisp 04:39:03 psilord [~psilord@ppp-70-226-164-134.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 04:39:49 -!- psilord [~psilord@ppp-70-226-164-134.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has left #lisp 04:40:32 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:42:03 -!- simias [~simias@2001:41d0:1:ae71::1] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:42:24 simias [~simias@2001:41d0:1:ae71::1] has joined #lisp 04:42:50 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:43:40 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has joined #lisp 04:44:19 -!- entrosca [~entrosca@ip98-167-231-101.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:44:44 entrosca [~entrosca@ip98-167-231-101.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:46:28 -!- retrry [~quassel@84.55.45.179] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:49:24 retrry [~quassel@84.55.45.179] has joined #lisp 04:52:50 -!- mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mheld] 04:53:13 -!- retrry [~quassel@84.55.45.179] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:59:00 retrry [~quassel@84.55.45.179] has joined #lisp 04:59:28 -!- retrry [~quassel@84.55.45.179] has quit [Client Quit] 05:00:21 retrry [~quassel@84.55.45.179] has joined #lisp 05:08:01 -!- retrry [~quassel@84.55.45.179] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:08:20 retrry [~quassel@84.55.45.179] has joined #lisp 05:20:05 pknodle [~pknodle@pool-98-110-175-36.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:22:51 Daoloth [~Daoloth@ip98-178-146-29.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:23:17 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:26:03 23:24 [ fetcher ] [ NULL[0] ] [ viggi ] 05:26:03 23:24 [ Fl1pFl0p ] [ nx5_off ] [ vlcn ] 05:26:03 23:24 [ Flannel ] [ ohm ] [ wasutton3-Work ] 05:26:03 23:24 [ flexd ] [ ohsix ] [ workbench ] 05:26:03 23:24 [ FlipFlop ] [ oracle ] [ Wulong ] 05:26:03 23:24 [ fr0ggie ] [ oyotatano ] [ xeon-enouf ] 05:26:04 23:24 [ fragalot ] [ p0g0 ] [ xinming ] 05:26:04 23:24 [ Frigolit ] [ packrat ] [ xSmurf ] 05:26:05 23:24 [ frogs ] [ pasky_ ] [ XzN`Nrk9t1x ] 05:26:05 23:24 [ FrostyToagac ] [ PeanutHorst ] [ y3llow ] 05:26:06 23:24 [ ftoad ] [ peeps[lappy] ] [ yano ] 05:26:06 23:24 [ Funnyface ] [ Peet__ ] [ Zaba ] 05:26:13 -!- Daoloth [~Daoloth@ip98-178-146-29.ok.ok.cox.net] has left #lisp 05:26:24 -!- wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-98-234-185-107.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:26:35 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:26:45 anyone know how i can restart the *slime-repl* buffer if i closed it accidentally in emacs/slime? 05:26:46 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-98-234-185-107.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:27:31 M-x slime 05:27:51 <|3b|> C-c C-z ? 05:27:54 yonatan_ [~yonatan@89-139-30-119.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 05:28:04 yan_: What adeht said. It will prompt you to start a new *inferior-lisp*, tell it not to and it will try to connect to the existing one. 05:28:21 ElectroMan [~Electroni@ip98-178-146-29.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:28:26 redline6561: that did it, thanks 05:28:34 <|3b|> (or M-x slime-switch-to-output-buffer) 05:28:56 thanks! still trying to figure out how to bind slime-build-system to a key chord 05:29:26 -!- retrry [~quassel@84.55.45.179] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:29:41 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:30:09 retrry [~quassel@84.55.45.179] has joined #lisp 05:30:20 -!- wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-98-234-185-107.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:30:40 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-98-234-185-107.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:32:23 muhdik [~IceChat7@99-14-26-190.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:33:20 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:34:41 -!- retrry 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[~xavieran@ppp118-209-39-163.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:00:35 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-130-38.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:03:20 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-69-88.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:05:47 -!- pknodle [~pknodle@pool-98-110-175-36.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: pknodle] 06:05:48 slyrus [~chatzilla@207.189.195.44] has joined #lisp 06:08:00 evening 06:08:33 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 06:12:17 good morning 06:13:54 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-156-171.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:15:14 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-69-88.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:15:25 -!- retrry [~quassel@84.55.45.179] has quit [*.net *.split] 06:17:48 retrry [~quassel@84.55.45.179] has joined #lisp 06:18:21 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:19:17 -!- 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closed the connection] 06:52:52 dimas [~dimas@178.168.224.172] has joined #lisp 06:53:47 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-140-11.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:54:09 -!- dimas [~dimas@178.168.224.172] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:55:57 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-140-11.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:56:39 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-104-225.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:00:04 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@145.120.22.20] has joined #lisp 07:01:32 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-103-165.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:01:47 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@145.120.22.20] has quit [Client Quit] 07:04:35 -!- ASau [~user@95-24-172-135.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:06:34 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-103-165.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:07:10 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-136-26.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:07:19 ASau [~user@95-24-172-135.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 07:10:49 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:14:09 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.14.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:14:58 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.14.176] has joined #lisp 07:15:30 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:16:59 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 07:17:10 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 07:20:59 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:21:14 good morning 07:21:43 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:22:10 Salut 07:23:21 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81B164.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:23:21 g'day #lis 07:23:48 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 07:24:21 #'lisp 07:24:46 What is the difference between ' and #' really? 07:25:20 I was told #' is for functions or something like that, but in elisp I pass around functions with ' all the time 07:26:23 -!- retrry [~quassel@84.55.45.179] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:26:32 http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/02_dhb.htm 07:26:47 retrry [~quassel@84.55.45.179] has joined #lisp 07:26:53 compared to ' == QUOTE 07:27:07 Ah, right 07:27:18 Somebody already told me that actually, I just forgot about it hm 07:27:34 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@207.189.195.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:29:13 (: 07:29:20 If this holds true for elisp, dunno. 07:30:20 Urgh tracking this all down in the documentation is pretty tough, each new definition features 40 new definitions which I don't understand again 07:30:29 At least it has a lot of links though, I'll grant it that 07:30:33 Hmm.. 07:30:41 I was just attempting to grasp what function does 07:30:53 slyrus [~chatzilla@207.189.195.44] has joined #lisp 07:31:03 And then I was struggling to understand functional value vs. functional name vs. symbol or something like that 07:31:24 I just C-c C-d h anywhere in my lisp buffers and emacs-w3m opens the appropriate thing. Easy to navigate around in there thene. 07:31:27 then 07:31:32 or M-. if I'm in a good mood (: 07:31:49 Quoting a symbol gives you the symbol itself. Function will give you the function it is bound to. funcall with indirect the symbol, though. 07:32:49 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:34:48 Hmm, which lisp implementation would you recommend for windows? I like Clisp but it won't seem to run today..not sure why. 07:36:16 sea4ever: I hear good things about ccl. 07:36:35 Yeah I've been looking at it for about an hour now. 07:37:01 I suppose I'll stick to it for a bit 07:37:16 sea4ever: CCL is the most recommended one for Windows afaik 07:37:24 I use CCL on Windows and SBCL on Linux 07:38:29 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:38:35 HET2 [~diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 07:39:14 Pocket [~masato@p3239-ipbf2310hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:40:35 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-rktwcpvdlcrxjghl] has joined #lisp 07:40:35 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-rktwcpvdlcrxjghl] has quit [Changing host] 07:40:35 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 07:40:38 Ah yes it was funcall I was looking for 07:44:29 Hmm both (funcall '(lambda () 1)) and (funcall #'(lambda () 1)) work 07:44:44 notsonerdysunny [~chatzilla@121.243.182.185] has joined #lisp 07:44:54 (funcall (lambda () 1)) 07:44:57 also 07:45:04 -!- p_l|backup [~plasek@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:45:22 TEST vs. # though 07:45:31 ' vs. #' 07:45:49 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@207.189.195.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:45:50 Ahh, #' errors when the function doesn't exist then 07:45:57 (macroexpand-1 '(lambda () 1)) => #'(lambda () 1) 07:46:43 Huh :o 07:46:53 I expected (quote (lambda () 1)) 07:47:04 Why does it use #' in the expansion? I am puzzled 07:48:26 The standard recommends it. 07:48:56 Let me answer the right question... 07:49:09 '(lambda () 1) is just a sexp. 07:49:22 (function (lambda () 1)) will generally compile to code. 07:50:08 (funcall '(lambda () 1)) isn't required to work. For example, clisp gives an error that it isn't a function. 07:50:39 -!- borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 07:51:10 -!- zvrba [~zvrba@anakin.ifi.uio.no] has left #lisp 07:51:45 Actually, which lisp allowed (funcall '(lambda () 1)), that's not supposed to be allowed. 07:51:45 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 07:51:50 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:52:28 CCL 07:52:45 Wait no, I screwed it up 07:52:54 STOP WITH THE ELISP :P 07:53:08 I was actually mixing up the types there, I didn't actually use a lambda 07:53:10 But an earlier defun 07:53:35 Yeah, (funcall '(lambda () 1)) doesn't work 07:54:29 (type-of (lambda () 1)) FUNCTION 07:54:34 (type-of #'(lambda () 1)) FUNCTION 07:54:47 (type-of #'#'(lambda () 1)) error hmm 07:55:15 -!- muhdik [~IceChat7@99-14-26-190.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:55:25 I don't even get why #'(lambda () 1) doesn't work 07:55:31 I don't even get why #'(lambda () 1) works( 07:55:35 works*, too 07:56:36 The (function x) of a FUNCTION? huh 07:57:10 Remember that lambda is a macro that expands to (function (lambda ...)) 07:58:16 (function (function (lambda () 1))) 07:58:48 d3z I don't get that expansion btw 07:59:01 Wouldn't that be recursively generating more function's? 07:59:58 function is a special form, it doesn't macroexpand it's argument 08:00:05 Hmmm 08:00:17 Ok, because it sounded like f(x) := g(f(x)) at first 08:00:55 qfr: function is a special form that treats its body differently. 08:01:21 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:05:48 uh 08:05:59 wat 08:06:11 Huh? 08:07:09 function is a special form, it doesn't macroexpand it's argument 08:07:10 ? 08:07:19 -!- emef0 [~user@c-67-183-86-245.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:07:33 That is what I was trying to say, even if it didn't come out that way. 08:07:39 emef0 [~user@c-67-183-86-245.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:07:46 That's what I am saying "uh wat" too. 08:08:12 Oh, duh, I missed your reply above, sorry. 08:08:37 well time to write code. 08:09:15 schmrkc: hmm? 08:13:51 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 08:18:54 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-136-26.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:19:58 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-119-62.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:22:05 Krystof [~csr21@cpc2-dals3-0-0-cust1263.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:24:50 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:24:54 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-120-173.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:26:25 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 08:26:41 ehu [~ehuels@109.32.217.81] has joined #lisp 08:27:33 -!- Pocket [~masato@p3239-ipbf2310hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:28:18 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-104-41.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:28:18 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 08:33:35 Pocket [~masato@p3239-ipbf2310hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:36:22 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:39:19 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-119-62.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:40:06 How do I know when I'm not using Lisp because it's not the best language for the job, as opposed to not using Lisp because I'm simply not experienced enough with it to know how to use it properly/effectively? 08:41:01 I wrote a program in Ruby to make tagging and naming CD rips easier. 08:41:17 I could have done it in Lisp, but it just seemed more akward in Lisp. 08:41:39 The task seemed to imperative to do nicely in Lisp. 08:42:15 If you view it as an imperative task, I guess? 08:42:41 So I need to retune my brain more to use Lisp better? 08:42:42 -!- emef0 [~user@c-67-183-86-245.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:42:49 I don't understand why. 08:42:58 Lisp has no problem with you writing imperative code. 08:43:04 Or is Lisp really not for every task? 08:43:10 Lisp is not for every task. 08:43:30 Heck for the task you mentioned I'd have written a bash script. 08:43:42 ;) 08:43:58 I just used Ruby because prompting in Bash was a bit clunky. 08:44:55 aidalgol: As for best language... If you're more experienced with Ruby and you get shit done faster, and your actual goal is to Get Shit Done (TM) as opposed to exploring some new language while getting shit done a bit slower.. then Ruby seems the better language for you + this job. 08:45:27 But 08:45:38 CL has no problem with you writing imperative code 08:45:43 Oh, I know. 08:45:48 it's not like it's some obscure functional language (: 08:45:50 I do that all the time in elisp. 08:46:11 Sounds painful (: 08:46:38 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-65-115.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:47:57 Well, not all the time, but I am at least comfortable enough with elisp to know that what you said is true for CL. 08:48:30 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 08:48:30 Is there some expect-like thing for CL? 08:48:50 expect ? 08:48:55 Tcl Expect. 08:49:35 bsod1 [~osa1@78.176.254.229] has joined #lisp 08:49:53 What I want to do is connect to a telnet server, wait for the prompt, then send some text. 08:50:19 Doing that in bash with UNIX pipes would be a nightmare. 08:51:16 p_l|backup [~plasek@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 08:52:40 *schmrkc* has no idea about expect. never heard of it :) 08:52:52 perl has an expect module ... 08:53:03 schmrkc: But how can I do what I just described in CL? 08:53:15 flip214: Blasphemer! ;) 08:53:20 but for simple things a sleep and read just works 08:54:07 and read-char tells you whether it got end-of-file - that might work for socket streams too 08:54:21 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-ehsvuaniqfratpbj] has joined #lisp 08:54:21 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-ehsvuaniqfratpbj] has quit [Changing host] 08:54:21 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 08:54:25 aidalgol, http://www.cliki.net/telnetlib 08:56:31 Thanks, flip214! 09:04:17 Dranik [~dim@86.57.253.61] has joined #lisp 09:09:24 plage [~user@116.118.1.133] has joined #lisp 09:09:32 Good afternoon everyone! 09:10:33 Hello plage! :) 09:10:45 plage: How are you? 09:11:35 Hey maus. I'm fine. Back in VN I understand? 09:11:44 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.207.10] has joined #lisp 09:12:06 plage: Yes, we are in Vietnam already. :) 09:12:29 plage: it's 12 days already. :) 09:13:16 plage: you are at your apartment now? 09:13:37 maus: I am yes. I am very happy with it. 09:14:15 plage: Is it near to the university?! 09:14:51 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:15:22 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-228-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 09:16:53 maus: Yes, tall building labels SIU close to COOP Mart, Q 9. 09:16:58 *labeled 09:17:46 plage: Ah.. I know it. It is a good building for apartments! :) 09:18:09 maus: I have a fantastic view from the 13th floor. 09:18:33 plage: and you have the COOP Mart near by. It is very convenient. :) 09:18:51 maus: yes, nice neighborhood too! 09:19:16 plage: wow.. from that floor, you would have the whole view of the city! :) 09:19:29 maus: Are you doing any Lisp work these days (to get back on topic)? 09:19:43 -!- xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-39-163.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:20:25 plage: I'm doing the report.. :) 09:20:39 Of course, yes. 09:20:46 That's Lisp related! 09:21:01 plage: yes. :)) 09:22:35 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@78.176.254.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:22:42 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 09:25:11 bsod1 [~osa1@81.214.243.120] has joined #lisp 09:28:03 plage: May I come to visit you when I have free time.. and you are available?! :) 09:28:51 krid [~dbe@f053076016.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:29:07 -!- krid [~dbe@f053076016.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:30:14 maus: Sure! May I suggest we wait until after the internship defenses. 09:30:43 maus: yes, Sir! :)) 09:31:01 maus: I'll be a bit busy before that with my wife visiting, then my brother, then my niece. 09:31:38 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:32:16 plage: oh.. They all come to VN to visit you? :) 09:32:16 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:32:35 maus: yes. 09:32:41 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d01106d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:32:54 plage: your brother, who is working in Thailand? 09:33:12 xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-39-163.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:33:18 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-179.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:33:20 maus: He is not working there, but he is there 3 months per year, yes. 09:33:44 plage: yes, I see. :) 09:35:13 hi plage 09:36:32 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-140-11.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:36:58 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 09:37:44 hey prxq 09:40:32 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 09:40:46 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:41:06 -!- poindontcare [~poindontc@fwsm.comcastnets.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 09:41:52 plage: I'm putting the user manual to the appendix of the report. It has many sections, and subsections.. So, Is it true that those parts will appear in the table of contents too?! and they are A.1....A.2...A.2.2...etc (I call it appendix A)?! 09:42:06 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-khvshspqvmayhitu] has joined #lisp 09:42:06 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-khvshspqvmayhitu] has quit [Changing host] 09:42:06 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 09:42:08 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:42:18 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:42:54 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 09:43:17 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:48:12 That would be good if they did, yes. 09:49:54 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:55:06 frodef [~frode@shevek.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 09:55:47 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping 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[~sunnyps@120-88-37-91.thane.hns.net.in] has joined #lisp 12:40:02 when coding in the likes of C++ or Java it's good style to kill all warnings. This seems less so in the Lisp world, am I correct? 12:40:17 no 12:41:04 I'll have to do something about all these warnings, then :-) 12:41:17 perhaps you mean style warnings? 12:41:21 Sure you're talking of warnings, or are you talking about compiler notes? 12:41:24 -!- begotten [~user@cpe-24-193-115-161.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:41:26 style-warnings are warnings, too 12:41:49 -!- entrosca [~entrosca@ip98-167-231-101.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:42:10 they are, but they are obviously not the same 12:42:35 It depends on lot on which Lisp you're working with (primarily), and on whether you're working with multiple Lisps. Some Lisps just have remarkably many stupid warnings (style-warning or not). 12:42:51 Agreed, and compiler notes are sometimes hard to get rid of 12:43:51 and not always appropriate, for example if I *want* stuff to work on (integer 0 *) I don't want to hear about possible optimization if the input was a fixnum or uint32 or whatever 12:44:09 i make my code compile silently, using (sb-ext:muffle-conditions sb-ext:compiler-note) when needed 12:44:29 yeah but then you might muffle stuff you *do* care about 12:44:30 Edward_ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-18-204.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:44:56 ELI opens a buffer when compilation prints -anything-, which means that it usually doesn't open a buffer at all on allegro. I used it a while with SBCL, when almost every C-c C-c gave a pointless buffer. 12:45:16 I've got lots of warnings about unused lexical variables, which should be easy to remove 12:45:19 tcr: i first compile just with speed, look at what i care about and fix it, and then muffle everything else 12:45:37 I do too, stassats 12:45:42 but some like this .. ; Iterate does not know how to handle the special form (CCL:COMPILER-LET ((CCL::*NX-CURRENT-CODE-NOTE* NIL)) ... 12:45:50 but then you might change the function in future 12:45:52 and i use speed only locally, when it matters 12:45:56 Ironically, today I'm in the reverse situation of using slime on allegro, and since some recent-ish allegro update there's a stupid warning on many of my functions, which slime seems to think I care about. 12:46:00 I know it's not a problem as there are no iterate clauses inside the form 12:46:22 lichtblau: There might be a way to tweak allegro's backend accordingly 12:46:38 ah. muffle warning is what I want 12:46:50 lichtblau: for example, on sbcl we flag redefinitions specially so they don't cause unnecessary buffer popup 12:47:23 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:47:56 stassats: Still I think there's some truth in saying that dealing with warnings / compiler-notes is a bit different than say -Wall, but then I'm not an experienced C programmer so I might not be right 12:48:34 Of course saying, don't care about warnings, is not right either :-) 12:48:57 I admit to not spending as much time on slime as I perhaps could or should. 12:49:38 lichtblau: One of antifuchs' role at franz is to take some care about their slime integration from what I know 12:50:18 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:50:41 very good. antifuchs: please fix slime CVS on ACL 8.2. k thx 12:51:23 _danb_ [~user@124-149-166-62.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 12:51:28 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.219] has joined #lisp 12:52:19 i guess it'd be better if compiler notes were off by default and you had to enable them 12:53:01 I don't think that's the issue; the issue is that their emittage should be smarter 12:53:35 Reav_ [~Sarge@41.190.200.127] has joined #lisp 12:54:15 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:55:09 and it'd be good to have some more nicer way for declaration abbreviation than #.*variable* 12:55:49 there's the cltl2 stuff but you know that of course 12:56:08 cltl2 isn't exactly standard 12:56:26 which cltl2 stuff are you referring to? 12:56:36 define-declartion? 12:58:29 ok. Well, I don't want to do the Edi-style thing is put an declare into every single of my functions anyway. 12:58:48 I want to proclaim optimizations at the top of the file, know for certain that they won't have an effect on code outside of that file (and that's the big portability problem), and have slime take that proclamation into account like it does package and readtable. 12:59:34 myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 12:59:36 entrosca [~entrosca@ip98-167-231-101.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:59:37 Yeah 12:59:45 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp121-45-9-24.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:59:51 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-187-170.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:00:00 Fare would surely complain about the lack of a proper module system at this very point :-) 13:00:06 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Quit] 13:01:03 i usually need SPEED in a few functions, so it's not the problem to put it locally 13:01:10 -!- entrosca [~entrosca@ip98-167-231-101.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 13:01:32 though putting #+sbcl (sb-ext:muffle-conditions sb-ext:compiler-note) isn't as nice 13:01:44 entrosca [~entrosca@ip98-167-231-101.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:02:29 BTW, am I seeing it right that you changed various optimization declaims in commonqt? What's the background of that change? 13:02:52 -!- entrosca [~entrosca@ip98-167-231-101.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 13:03:17 lichtblau: i've removed debugs, because it's better to use sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy when needed 13:03:24 entrosca [~entrosca@ip98-167-231-101.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:04:08 If you have some kind of event loop, that one should probably have a local (debug 2) so the frame is restartable 13:04:10 isn't it good to have highish debug on ... yes 13:04:15 -!- retrry [~quassel@84.55.45.179] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:04:35 true, but restrict-compiler-policy is >=. I don't want >= 2, I want exactly 2. 13:04:42 Because (debug 3) on SBCL: not a good idea. 13:05:09 i have (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 'debug 2) in my ~/.sbclrc 13:05:22 I don't get that one, what's >= suppose to mean? 13:05:46 lichtblau: then don't do (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 'debug 3) 13:06:04 mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:06:50 tcr: having an actual RESTART for the event loop is more portable 13:07:03 Wait 13:07:17 longshot [~longshot@174.36.149.237-static.reverse.softlayer.com] has joined #lisp 13:07:17 you just said you removed the debugs for sake of a unportable mechanism 13:07:34 No. I want my code to set the right policies. You've removed those policies from my code. 13:07:40 It's all nice and well that your .sbclrc enforces a lower limit, but that's missing the point. 13:07:49 Even if I did the same, it wouldn't prevent other asdf systems loaded earlier than commonqt to set a *higher* limit than I want. 13:08:42 tcr: the debugs in this case are #+sbcl anyway, so they were already unportable. 13:09:09 Ok 13:09:19 lichtblau: then these systems should be fixed, because i don't see that everything else does the same 13:09:56 if something sets debug to 3, and only commonqt is immune to it, that doesn't make anything easier 13:10:17 Perhaps the Edi-style thing would be better, as long as Lisps lack a better mechanism. 13:10:24 How is it appropriate on sbcl anyway where *policy* is rebound around LOAD and COMPILE-FILE? 13:10:43 (not that sure about LOAD) 13:10:45 Is there a way though to avoid having it in every defun? Perhaps shadow DEFUN with a version that inserts the declaration? 13:10:54 xan_ [~xan@38.Red-80-25-35.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:11:15 system-wide proclamations would be a nice thing too 13:11:16 (Is anything other than DEFUN affected?) 13:11:28 lambda? 13:11:35 initforms? 13:11:58 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-167-140.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 13:12:00 It is sufficient to have optimize declarations within the defun, or do they have to be in a locally outside of it? Or the other way around? 13:12:42 I missed the advantage of the defun-wrapping approach 13:12:52 what is it? 13:13:36 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.250.175] has joined #lisp 13:13:42 Well, Edi puts (declare (optimize #.*something*)) into every function. I find that annoying. 13:13:46 I think he does it because proclaim/declaim at the top of the file leaks to outside of that file on some Lisps, presumably LispWorks which he uses. 13:14:30 yes, and (declaim (optimize debug)) doesn't persist after LOAD or COMPILE-FILE in SBCL 13:14:59 so if someone decides to proclaim it to 3, it's their problem 13:15:04 which, I thought all of us agree, is a good thing? 13:15:17 another rant: i find it annoying when people put optimization declarations in places where they should not have (to only produce compiler warnings/notes, and not improve any performance) 13:15:43 basically just to annoy me 13:16:02 jdz: It might be your implementation which annoys you there 13:16:16 jdz: that (speed 3) is associated with lots of compiler notes is a cmuclism 13:16:17 not really 13:16:35 tcr: some people put (speed 3) where they should not have 13:16:42 lichtblau: given the above fact about sbcl, does the problem you're describing still hold? 13:16:52 weblocks comes to mind off the top of my head 13:17:31 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-179.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 13:17:37 (well, this is one of the reasons i'm not using it, too) 13:17:46 stassats: I'm not worrying about your earlier change as such, it merely reminded me of the problem. I'm more trying to understand how to do the right thing -- for all Lisps that we are planning to support. And that means supporting Lisps where declarations leak. 13:18:30 jdz: The only reason you can say it's inappropriate is if you know the implementation the author uses. (I'm bit pendantic here but it's the truth as declarations are totally implementation specific) 13:18:59 Example: I don't know for certain whether they leak on CCL. But I think they do, because there is evidently a commonqt dependency that changes declarations away from the default, with the consequence that compiler macros aren't being expanded. 13:19:17 tcr: i'm talking more about putting declarations in places without profiling 13:19:36 lichtblau: If those implementations have a way to query the policy (cltl2 support) then maybe an :around method on ASDF:PERFORM? 13:19:49 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-141.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo] 13:19:53 tcr: they do no good, except annoy some people 13:20:09 jdz: They might do good on a particularly aweful implementation :-) 13:20:13 -!- Reav_ [~Sarge@41.190.200.127] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:20:20 ... and even if we have perfect benchmarks to find problems, the "wow, why isn't my compiler macro being used at all" issue isn't the sort of problem I'd like to spend any time on at all.... 13:20:29 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:20:41 tcr: right. I should definitely take some time to investigate that RSN. 13:21:22 what do we support at the moment? I think SBCL, CCL, ACL, LispWorks, and in theory CLISP. 13:21:49 lichtblau: In fact there's a pending ticket on asdf itself to support that kind of thing 13:22:07 except that ACL doesn't work with short ints currently 13:22:14 on linux 13:22:41 I see it being basically a SMOP, "all" that is needed is some extensive research on the state of doing things on different implementations 13:23:04 which certainly would be time consuming and I guess not all that fun 13:23:51 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.219] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:26:30 I'll try to just consider it as fun. 13:29:13 Part of the testing/research would also be to find out what policies Lisps have in the first place, I guess. speed/space/compilation-speed/debug are very blunt tools. 13:29:47 tcr: have you received copyright-assignment-to-fsf letter again? 13:32:06 I haven't for some reason but Luke did 13:32:55 this time i replied, saying that i don't want to assign 13:33:47 in reality i just don't want to bother, and i don't really think that it'd be a good thing to include slime into emacs, since there're no releases 13:33:49 I told Luke that I wouldn't be reluctant to assign per se but I would like to see answers to the issues raised in http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.slime.devel/9826 first 13:35:47 and i don't want to change parts not under GPL to GPL, because i don't like GPL 13:36:59 I think Emacs should contain something like slime's architecture but written language-agnostics from the start 13:37:03 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:37:38 i agree 13:37:39 Stuff like sldb and the inspector could be reused on the emacs side 13:37:57 as data protocol I'd probably use json 13:38:25 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-141.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:38:29 because every language has an implementation of it, and it comes with specification 13:38:42 and of course it's simple and to the point 13:39:50 that would be a cool project, though i don't like the idea of spending more time on tools again 13:39:58 unless it was paid for 13:41:24 -!- tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 13:42:30 tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has joined #lisp 13:45:07 -!- xan_ [~xan@38.Red-80-25-35.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:48:58 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 13:51:49 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.250.175] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:52:04 ziarkaen_ [~ziarkaen@87.115.146.180] has joined #lisp 13:55:08 -!- DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has quit [Quit: DarthShrine] 13:55:28 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.112.212.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:04:21 -!- mitre [~chatzilla@204.51.92.251] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014]] 14:05:15 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:05:44 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@host86-136-51-46.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:06:38 Yellow. I'm about to use lemonodor's cl-html-diff and cl-difflib to (hopefully) generate some pretty diffs. Anybody have any experience with these or with alternatives? 14:06:54 tsuru [~charlie@adsl-179-29-10.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:08 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.32.217.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:08:09 ehu [~ehuels@109.32.217.81] has joined #lisp 14:09:15 jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 14:10:31 I'm sure lemonodor does (-: 14:11:46 retrry [~quassel@84.55.45.179] has joined #lisp 14:12:45 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:13:09 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-179.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:31 -!- az [~az@p4FE4F7A7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 14:14:23 -!- kae [~dsa@ext02.gsp.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:14:24 kae_ [~dsa@ext02.gsp.se] has joined #lisp 14:14:43 az [~az@p4FE4F7A7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:48 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 14:15:13 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:16:25 heloehlo_ [~bfouts@24.30.125.111] has joined #lisp 14:16:51 -!- luis` is now known as luis 14:16:54 kae [~dsa@ext02.gsp.se] has joined #lisp 14:16:55 -!- kae_ [~dsa@ext02.gsp.se] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 14:17:03 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-50-127-222.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:59 Well, let's see if lemonodor-fame is still worth anything. :-) 14:18:32 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 14:18:54 -!- sglinux [~sglinux@cm112.gamma94.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:20:11 What secretive technology are you hacking on? :-) 14:22:19 -!- Pocket [~masato@p3239-ipbf2310hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:24:33 dimas [~dimas@178.168.229.202] has joined #lisp 14:24:50 Just writing some comparison code for graph data and stuff like that, to validate refactorings and the like. Nothing fancy. 14:26:07 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-179.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 14:26:26 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-187-170.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 14:26:27 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:28:44 -!- ziarkaen_ [~ziarkaen@87.115.146.180] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:29:04 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.115.146.180] has joined #lisp 14:31:17 -!- kae [~dsa@ext02.gsp.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:31:18 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Quit: It's getting dark, too dark to see] 14:31:27 kae [~dsa@ext02.gsp.se] has joined #lisp 14:31:41 muhdik [~IceChat7@parkmobile-usa.oneringnetworks.net] has joined #lisp 14:32:10 mega1_ [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 14:32:49 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:33:29 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:33:42 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 14:34:04 kae_ [~dsa@ext02.gsp.se] has joined #lisp 14:34:08 -!- kae [~dsa@ext02.gsp.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:34:08 hey 14:34:11 sup here 14:34:14 anyone there? 14:34:48 just us bots 14:36:12 nurv101: if you count ghosts as anyone, yes. 14:37:36 what do built-in lisp functions' names like progn and let stand for? 14:38:43 the N in progn means that the values of the Nth sub form (out of N sub forms, i.e. the last) is returned 14:38:53 compare with prog1 and prog2 14:38:53 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 14:39:05 LET is like in mathematics, "let x be the value ..." 14:40:32 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 14:40:35 PROG is a very old form, probably stands for program; I would guess that it's the first thing you used to write in a function definition 14:41:46 tcr: function names in common lisp is strange, I googled for their meanings but can't find anything, do you know a source for their meanings? 14:42:36 The strange ones comes from the 60s or 70s when memory was scarce so they abbreviated stuff heavily 14:42:39 bsod1: their meanings are defined in the standard; you're probably interested in their origins? 14:43:05 and then are they really that stranger than function names in C? 14:43:06 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 14:43:28 -!- xinming [~hyy@122.238.78.243] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:43:30 jdz: sorry for my english, I mean, their opennings, or full names, I don't know the right word for it.. 14:43:45 bsod1: common lisp is a result of an effort to standardise on a single lisp implementation; before that there were many many lisp implementations with function and special form names usually invented off the top of the head of some hacker 14:43:46 tcr: I don't know c 14:44:14 xinming [~hyy@115.221.10.128] has joined #lisp 14:44:27 bsod1: http://www.l1sp.org might be easier for searching if you know already know the symbol name... use google to find hyperspec links...here's the index: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/X_Symbol.htm 14:44:48 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:45:08 xan_ [~xan@65.141.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 14:45:29 tsuru: thanks 14:46:42 bsod1: the hyperspec also goes by the acronym clhs 14:50:06 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-187-170.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:12 -!- sunnyps [~sunnyps@120-88-37-91.thane.hns.net.in] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:54:36 pknodle [~pknodle@pool-98-110-175-36.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:21 abeaumont_ [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 14:57:05 -!- muhdik [~IceChat7@parkmobile-usa.oneringnetworks.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:57:30 -!- pknodle [~pknodle@pool-98-110-175-36.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:58:13 Shit firefox is annoying 14:58:34 #firefox probably is -----> that way 14:58:37 I'm sick of pressing C-n to try to scroll down only to find i've opened 15 new firefox winfows 14:58:38 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 14:58:40 *windows 14:59:20 drdo: why not just use Closure? 14:59:28 hi 14:59:41 stassats: I usually use conkeror 15:00:09 Hello Posterdati 15:00:22 please I need to pass parameters from a list to a funcall, something like: (funcall func parameters), where paramters are (list 1 2 3 4) 15:00:29 apply 15:00:52 thanks 15:01:10 -!- dimas [~dimas@178.168.229.202] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:01:20 It's nice how little code you need these days to write a webkit-based browser. 15:01:47 -!- Krystof [~csr21@cpc2-dals3-0-0-cust1263.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:01:58 the on i wrote keeps crashing 15:02:01 -!- Norrit [~Norrit@p4FEDDE3D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 15:02:02 s/on/one/ 15:02:09 lichtblau: The idea of writing a browser seems less appealing each day 15:02:25 i should see why 15:03:26 a webkit-based "browser UI" I should say -- others have implemented most of the browser already, you can basically just put a few buttons next to it very easily. 15:03:51 -!- tcr [~tcr@77-20-119-246-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:05:26 For comparison: Arora has somewhere between 20k and 30k lines of C++ code to implement a mozilla-like window around webkit, including extra features like bookmarking, adblock. 15:05:27 Emacs keybindings should be doable in Lisp using less than 10 kLOC. 15:06:08 muhdik [~IceChat7@parkmobile-usa.oneringnetworks.net] has joined #lisp 15:06:12 30k lines, really? 15:06:25 hm, qwebview doesn't seem to be working anymore in commonqt, something fishy is going on with caching 15:06:35 That's an absurd ammount of lines 15:06:59 absurdly little, you mean? 15:07:17 for bookmarks? 15:07:38 Unless bookmarks aren't what i think they are 15:08:16 those were just two examples of all the browser UI features implemented there which came to mind 15:08:31 corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:10 (hemlock's qwebview-based code is 200 LOC) 15:09:15 The only features i care about anyway are hinting (like in conkeror), and uri completion, some simple bookmarking is ok too 15:09:24 lichtblau: does (#_new QWebView) work for you? 15:10:43 tcr [~tcr@77-20-119-246-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 15:12:05 -!- entrosca [~entrosca@ip98-167-231-101.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:12:27 sabalabas [~sabalaba@c-98-229-0-52.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:09 yes. I don't see the remote DISPLAY it's running on at the moment, but it doesn't fail in any sort of obvious way. 15:13:48 milanj [~milanj_@109-92-195-186.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 15:13:49 -!- muhdik [~IceChat7@parkmobile-usa.oneringnetworks.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:13:52 perhaps my repo is confused with all this branches, i'll try a clean build 15:14:19 if I'm reading the github page right, you pulled in ivan4th's broken marshalling caching change. 15:14:25 that's not going to work :-) 15:14:39 muhdik [~IceChat7@parkmobile-usa.oneringnetworks.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:52 anything up with common-lisp.net today? 15:15:40 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:16:05 is there an official common lisp documentation? like library referances? 15:16:33 bsod1: there's a documentation system built into CL 15:16:47 drdo: how can I open it? 15:16:48 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.91.1] 15:18:04 bsod1: http://l1sp.org/cl/describe http://l1sp.org/cl/documentation 15:18:04 bsod1: You probably want to read some sort of tutorial or book about it 15:18:23 drdo: I'm reading land of lisp right now 15:18:35 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:20:44 bsod1: People pointed you to CLHS just a moment ago, did you miss it 15:22:16 There's also a decent quick reference at http://clqr.berlios.de/ 15:24:06 ziarkaen_ [~ziarkaen@87.115.228.129] has joined #lisp 15:24:23 lichtblau: strange, it works on ccl, but not on sbcl 15:25:55 -!- ziarkaen_ [~ziarkaen@87.115.228.129] has quit [Client Quit] 15:26:17 ziarkaen_ [~ziarkaen@87.115.228.129] has joined #lisp 15:27:20 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.115.146.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:27:32 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-67.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 15:28:38 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 15:29:30 lichtblau: (unbash nil) on ccl succeeds, while expectedly fails on sbcl 15:29:42 that's while doing (resolve-cast (find-qclass "QWebView") 15432) 15:29:49 -!- xan_ [~xan@65.141.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:29:56 -!- mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mheld] 15:30:28 So, hmm, cl-html-diff and cl-difflib seem to work fine for my purposes. The code hasn't changed in ~6 years; sometimes it's nice to use a stable language. :-) 15:30:31 rather while doing that on the result of resolve-cast 15:30:34 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-20-6-77-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:31:01 Phoodus [~foo@174-17-245-93.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:04 Joreji [~thomas@77-20-6-77-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 15:32:03 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:32:35 does anyone know a location where the stuff at git.b9.com is mirrored? 15:32:51 I'm looking for a git repo mirror with history 15:33:14 Looking for a specific repository? 15:33:37 cl-base64, md5, puri 15:34:23 unfortunately b9.com is pretty much abandoned... 15:34:45 cvandusen [~user@68-90-30-246.ded.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:48 sglinux [~sglinux@cm114.gamma95.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 15:34:58 stassats: hmm. QWebView is an indirect subclass of QPaintDevice. We don't know how to cast it, because the cast function of QWebView (module qtwebkit) can only operate on classes of qtwebkit, and QPaintDevice (module qtgui) is not listed as an external class in qtwebkit. 15:35:13 Not a mirror, but bknr has those packages in thirdparty. 15:35:26 svn://svn.bknr.net/svn/trunk 15:35:30 The solution is, I think, to cast step by step, first into QWidget, and then into from QWidget into QPaintDevice. 15:36:25 attila_lendvai: I have a bunch of b9.com Lisp repositories checked out locally. 15:38:29 reb`: my problem is that the install guide at dwim.hu is generated automatically. it is a list of git clone and the likes to clone the repos locally with the exact same version. so the original repo, from which the stuff at dwim.hu is checked out, needs to be available. I do have the repos, but our poor users will have headaches 15:38:41 thanks, though! 15:39:25 lichtblau: should %cast do that, or cache!? 15:39:58 ahh, cloning http:// from b9 works! 15:40:38 stassats: I'm working on it. For now, I'll add a clear assertion to %cast, and change cache to do it. That's more efficient than doing it for every class anyway. 15:40:59 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@81.214.243.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:41:15 gitorious doesn't seem to have an issue tracker, or has it? 15:41:40 don't know. can we continue to the github issue tracker? 15:42:02 bsod1_ [~osa1@88.242.74.21] has joined #lisp 15:42:03 i have no objections 15:43:20 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 15:43:52 now i need to figure out how to make my repository consistent 15:44:43 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-20-6-77-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:45:58 declaim on ccl has load-time effects. (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (declaim (optimize ...))) is usually what you want. see http://www.clozure.com/pipermail/openmcl-devel/2009-August/010168.html 15:48:53 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0A661.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:50:53 hmm... what do you think about implementation exposing images/"worlds"/processes as first-class objects? So you can for example grab current execution image, copy it, modify it, run it in separate thread etc.? 15:50:59 -!- ch077179 [~urs@adsl-84-227-4-239.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:51:25 what for? 15:52:42 attila_lendvai: common-lisp.net/gitweb 15:52:47 -!- yonatan_ [~yonatan@89-139-30-119.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:53:01 stassats: pushed to branch qwebview-fix on gitorious. 15:53:07 Please do not merge the entire branch yet! The tip of the branch is the commit for this issue; there are other changes with which I'm not done yet and that I might still want to rebase. 15:53:13 yonatan_ [~yonatan@89-139-30-119.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 15:53:20 fe[nl]ix: thanks! 15:53:43 i need to read something on git, because i feel quite confused 15:53:45 stassats: in the beginning I was thinking of a way to implement a image dumping routine coupled with some tools to decrease the size of the image, another idea was to implement partitioning used in .NET runtime 15:54:50 fe[nl]ix: for the libfixposix readme: libtool is also needed. I suggest this in there: "sudo apt-get install automake autoconf libtool" 15:55:50 stassats: in general I would like to avoid merge commits on the official branch unless absolutely needed. So if you have merge commits, I would from this point on only cherry-pick from your branch. 15:56:31 jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-54.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:56:33 stassats: for example, in .NET, you can setup a separate instance of runtime but still in the same process, load a different code, and only communicate through narrowly-defined channels (since you can drop the new instance's privilege to use the same runtime-control operations) 15:57:01 didi [~user@scorpion.tdkom.psi.br] has joined #lisp 15:57:03 p_l|backup: how is that better than an actual process? 15:58:33 pkhuong_: it gives you the ability to sandbox a bit of code (that doesn't have to be a full process), without requiring either a) CPU-specific work, like libvx b) extensive OS support 15:58:56 and I always wanted to have save-lisp without the "and-die" part :D 15:59:05 ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 15:59:25 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 15:59:43 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-140-11.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:00:47 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 16:05:29 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:06:08 mheld [~mheld@108.113.38.154] has joined #lisp 16:06:14 sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 16:07:34 lichtblau: i'd need to figure out how to avoid merging 16:08:03 parolang [~user@c-64-246-121-114.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:25 -!- maus [~maus@222.253.99.65] has quit [Quit: Bye bye!] 16:09:17 use topic branches in the following sense: 1. Work on self-contained stuff on a branch. 2. do not merge these branches until they are actually done 3. rebase them before merging them 16:10:09 -!- c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust193.7-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:10:42 it's a question of discipline, obviously. One reason attila_lendvai prefers darcs over git, as I understand it, is that he wants to cherry-pick aggressively without keeping this sort of discipline. 16:11:56 darcs apparently doesn't even pretend to have linear history, whereas git makes the merge points explicit, so that you at least actually benefit from linear history when you have it. 16:12:01 ok. is there a way to remove these commits from ivan4th's branch? 16:12:21 i mean, commits merged from ivan4th's branch 16:12:22 -!- ziarkaen_ [~ziarkaen@87.115.228.129] has left #lisp 16:13:18 yeah, I regularly pull patches out of order in darcs (called cherry-pick in git, but makes the repos divergent. in darcs it just works while you don't have line-diff based conflicts between patches in your local repo.) 16:13:38 Joreji [~thomas@77-20-6-77-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 16:13:51 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-187-170.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 16:13:57 stassats: well, if you rebase a branch with merges, it will attempt to do away with the merge commits. So if you do, say, "git rebase gitorious/master", the result is as if you had went back to master",\ 16:13:57 the result is as if you had went back to 16:14:12 damn copy&paste, sorry. Let me try again. 16:14:13 Intensity [VOKDVyUpGI@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 16:14:19 typical usecase is pulling random small fixes and delaying the pull of bigger API chaning patches until I feel like fixing up my code for the bigger news 16:14:45 espadrine [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-153-247.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:14:56 after "git rebase gitorious/master", the result is as if you had went back to gitorious/master and then cherry-picked all of your and ivan4th's commits that hadn't been there yet. 16:15:29 didi` [~user@scorpion.tdkom.psi.br] has joined #lisp 16:15:57 The theoretical disadvantage is that your versions of Ivan's commmit would be distinct from his original versions. But in this case, you'd want to delete his commit during the rebase anyway, because it's broken. 16:16:21 I regularly rebase all my pending patches in git, because somehow that's natural for me. constantly rebasing non-published patches is a bit like emulating darcs behaviour 16:16:56 Hello. I have a question: do you know if #25radsf/fdsa is a valid ratio? It feels like it, but SBCL barks at me. 16:17:20 -!- parolang [~user@c-64-246-121-114.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:17:23 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:17:40 parolang [~user@c-64-246-121-114.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:40 espadrine: you are missing the #25r in the denominator 16:18:55 hm, oh 16:19:39 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-20-6-77-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:19:43 it's the s 16:19:49 -!- didi [~user@scorpion.tdkom.psi.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:19:55 espadrine: also s is beyond 25 so #25rs doesnt work 16:20:07 #25r goes only up to o 16:20:23 espadrine: #25radf/fda works fine in sbcl 16:20:42 ah 16:20:44 ok 16:20:47 thanks 16:21:07 javuchi [~noname@39.Red-83-45-69.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:14 ((((are)) ((((((you))) (((bored)) (enough))) (?))))) 16:22:04 not enough to be entertained by this faux-lisp 16:22:13 slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0A661.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:58 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-187-170.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:23:07 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-187-170.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:23:21 (((i))(((((((can))))(bore)))(((((you))))(more)))) 16:23:53 i love lisp XD 16:24:44 WonTu [~WonTu@p57B54D7D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:24:58 -!- WonTu [~WonTu@p57B54D7D.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 16:25:10 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.154.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:26:17 attila_lendvai: yeah, I often use git pull --rebase 16:26:56 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.48.237] has joined #lisp 16:27:06 attila_lendvai: IIRC, you can make that the default behaviour 16:27:10 *attila_lendvai* makes a note about pull --rebase (and is already scared of the surprises he'll experience the first time used) 16:27:33 I usually pull master and git rebase --verbose master 16:28:29 which reminds me of something I miss: is it possible to pull into a branch which is not the checked out one? something like git pull origin master while being in another branch? 16:28:38 no 16:29:11 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-191-205.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:29:20 you can fetch, but not pull(which is fetch+merge) 16:29:21 damn. I couldn't figure it out, but seems like it was a good strategy to bounce off of it in a few minutes 16:30:03 it's a very annoying usecase: git stash; git checkout master; git pull; git checkout hu.dwim; git stash pop 16:30:41 -!- parolang [~user@c-64-246-121-114.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:30:45 why do you want to update the master branch in the first place? 16:31:43 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-191-205.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:32:07 attila_lendvai: if it's for rebasing what I do is: commit/stash ongoing stuff; git fetch origin; git rebase origin/master 16:32:49 luis: thanks! that's a bit simpler and does what I want 16:34:32 attila_lendvai: had to learn these tricks because git on windows can be annoyingly slow :) 16:34:46 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-187-170.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:02 does anyone here have experience with the packages described at http://www.cliki.net/plotting ? 16:35:03 particularly checkouts 16:35:36 parolang [~user@c-64-246-121-114.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:55 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:36:26 ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 16:37:09 -!- silentbicycle [~scott@99-55-246-143.lightspeed.gdrpmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:37:09 -!- symbole` [~user@rrcs-184-74-223-10.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:37:27 symbole` [~user@rrcs-184-74-223-10.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:38:09 silentbicycle [~scott@99-55-246-143.lightspeed.gdrpmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:19 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:40:44 -!- kanru [~kanru@61-30-10-70.static.tfn.net.tw] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 16:44:31 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:47:53 Joreji [~thomas@77-20-6-77-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 16:48:54 madnificent: it seems not. Looking for a backend for gnuplot? 16:49:28 prxq: there are some backends listed, I was wondering if there was a defacto standard or something that really did its job wel 16:50:23 madnificent: i am not aware of any. 16:51:41 prxq: I was surprised to find so many efforts to enable plotting from common lisp 16:51:58 madnificent: part of the problem is that gnuplot is not terribly regular in its syntax, so it is hard to write a decently lispy frontend 16:52:47 prxq: fwiw, I don't care about the plotting library itself. If it generates plots that I can convert to pdf, then it's ok for me. 16:53:00 josemanuel [~josemanue@135.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:53:07 (and I can convert roughly all formats to pdf through imagemagick, so that shouldn't really be a problem) 16:53:30 Pocket [~masato@p3239-ipbf2310hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:53:51 madnificent: i use one I stitched up myself back when I knew only a little lisp, so I am afraid I can't really help you. 16:54:08 the lib that comes with clocc has half a chance of being well thought out 16:54:41 clearly someone needs to hack cl-python until it supports matplotlib 16:54:48 (if it doesn't already, I have no idea) 16:55:02 madnificent: please let us know what you end up choosing! 16:55:22 prxq: I'm guessing that it won't be a wise choice, but one that actually just works 16:55:42 prxq: I built a plotting library when I started using lisp as well... the code was really really horrible 16:55:55 madnificent: I know the feeling :P 16:55:58 prxq: it was built on top of vecto ): 16:55:59 :) 16:57:15 it's one of these "very large SMOP" kind of tasks that really benefits from a large user base bringing in all their API requirements (and code), I think 16:57:20 i still use mine, though (built on top of gnuplot). That it is still useful is of the virtues of CL, I think: bad karma won't necessarily kill you :-) 16:57:46 slyrus [~chatzilla@207.189.195.44] has joined #lisp 16:58:00 http://tkpapp.blogspot.com/2009/05/announcing-cl-2d.html doesn't look too bad either 16:58:40 *stassats* draws plots using commonqt 16:58:58 and quicklisp knows cl-2d \o/ 16:59:17 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-191-205.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:59:37 stassats: yourself, using qwt, or using yet another library? 17:00:16 just using QGraphicsView 17:01:01 documentation would've been nice 17:01:09 note: examples do _not_ count as documentation 17:01:11 *lichtblau* QGraphicsView 17:01:45 a vecto-like-or-better API on top of QGraphicsView would be really nice though 17:01:47 it only plots bar-graphs currently, and actually QGraphicsView is just a backend, it can also plot ascii bar-graphs 17:02:08 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 17:02:27 *madnificent* will probably draw some lines, a histogram and plot some points 17:02:45 lichtblau: on Qt's Webkit :) 17:02:46 *or 17:03:06 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 17:03:31 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@207.189.195.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:04:11 and with the one using QGraphicsView, you can dynamically modify parameters and follow hyperlinks 17:04:39 -!- Pocket [~masato@p3239-ipbf2310hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:04:59 tmh [633c8794@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 17:05:00 stassats: could it be that QGraphicsView is rather heavy if you'd want to generate many images? I don't know the footprint of Qt 17:05:09 Greetings lispers! 17:05:23 madnificent: it may be, but i'm using for interactivity 17:05:31 using it 17:06:59 -!- bsod1_ is now known as bsod1 17:09:19 -!- bsod1 is now known as bsod1_ 17:10:16 prxq: it's worse! Bad kharma does not kill you! 17:10:27 prxq: it just makes you suffer! >:-} 17:10:37 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 17:11:04 -!- yonatan_ [~yonatan@89-139-30-119.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:11:32 yonatan_ [~yonatan@89-139-30-119.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 17:12:12 -!- mheld [~mheld@108.113.38.154] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:21:45 psilord [~psilord@ppp-70-226-164-134.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 17:23:10 urandom__ [~user@p548A4C39.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:23:34 mg4001 [~mg4001@cpe-76-93-28-217.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:25:00 mheld [~mheld@108.113.38.154] has joined #lisp 17:26:56 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.32.217.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:28:04 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.93.121] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:29:04 kneferilis_ [53a80b70@gateway/web/freenode/ip.83.168.11.112] has joined #lisp 17:29:08 Hello! 17:29:20 can someone explain me why I would like to use Lisp? 17:29:45 no 17:30:09 o_0 17:30:29 -!- bsod1_ is now known as bsod1 17:30:49 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-20-6-77-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:31:48 lisp is kind of like jazz. if you need to ask, you probably don't like it. 17:32:28 and it's hard to like or not to like something without knowing it 17:32:35 but does lisp comes with libraries like Java or .NET? 17:32:58 and people are terrible at predicting whether they would like something or not 17:33:22 common lisp comes with an enormous standard library. there are third party libraries for most things not already included. 17:33:35 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-67.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:33:43 pjb: sure, but in C for example, it's the horrors instead of just an itch 17:35:07 espadrine` [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-153-247.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:35:07 -!- espadrine [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-153-247.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:35:08 -!- espadrine` is now known as espadrine 17:35:12 kneferilis_: You should use lisp if you don't want your programming language to restrict your programming style. 17:35:42 It's pretty cool ;) 17:36:12 where can I download common lisp for windows? 17:36:20 commonlispforwindows.com 17:36:21 The biggest advantage of lisp is that you can tailor it to the problem at hand and focus on solving the problem rather than focus on fitting the problem to the constraints of the language. 17:36:28 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:36:35 kneferilis_: You need to read up 17:37:14 there are at least two major commercial common lisp environments for windows. allegro and lispworks. 17:37:14 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 17:37:41 kneferilis_: LispWorks -> http://www.lispworks.com/downloads/index.html 17:37:41 clisp, clozure cl, scieneer and to some extent sbcl are also available on that platform. 17:37:55 kneferilis_: Practical Common Lisp -> http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 17:38:13 kneferilis_: That's all you need to get a good introduction to Lisp. 17:38:17 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:38:33 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-141.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:38:42 kneferilis_: If you want an open source lisp implementation on Windows, it will require a little more work. 17:38:58 i've heard good things about clozure cl on windows. 17:39:07 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.48.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:39:08 kneferilis_: Clozure CL -> http://trac.clozure.com/ccl 17:39:29 -!- bsod1 is now known as bsod1_ 17:40:23 Do these distibutions come with thw common lisp's large standard library? 17:40:24 So I want to use asdf:make-build in ecl but I get Debugger received error: Cannot find the external symbol MAKE-BUILD in #<"ASDF" package>. 17:40:57 kneferilis_: common lisp has an ANSI standard. if it doesn't include the standard library it isn't common lisp. 17:41:04 *madnificent* has plotted something with cl-2d 17:41:06 Does anyone know what I'm doing wrong? 17:41:20 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.116.25.90] has joined #lisp 17:41:31 sepi_: I don't find that function in my version of ASDF. 17:41:34 Fade: I see. Thanks! 17:42:12 -!- yonatan_ [~yonatan@89-139-30-119.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:42:13 and for additional libraries, there is quicklisp 17:42:49 The annoying thing about APROPOS is that the symbol you're looking for get's interned and returned in the results. 17:42:50 yonatan_ [~yonatan@89-139-30-119.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 17:42:57 s/get's/gets/ 17:43:15 tmh: use strings 17:43:24 an uninterning reader would be interesting to see. 17:43:38 Yes, strings, thanks. 17:44:13 tmh: I think it's an ecl extension 17:45:06 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-141.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:45:25 sepi_: That was my guess. 17:47:25 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@135.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 17:51:48 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 17:52:59 tmh: but how to enable it then? 17:53:04 -!- kneferilis_ [53a80b70@gateway/web/freenode/ip.83.168.11.112] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:53:59 new-lisper [~daniel@187.10.45.61] has joined #lisp 17:54:15 sepi_: I don't know, I don't use ECL, but generally, you need to know the package that make-build is in and use it from there. You are trying to use it from the ASDF package. It should be in the ECL documentation. 17:54:17 kneferilis_ [53a80b70@gateway/web/freenode/ip.83.168.11.112] has joined #lisp 17:54:47 Fade: it's easy to do in SBCL. What do you think about making it dependant on special variable *interning-reader* with default value t? 17:54:51 -!- new-lisper is now known as valium97582 17:55:28 sepi_: Is :asdf in *features*? 17:56:29 sepi_: Have you loaded asdf using (require 'asdf) ? 17:56:57 tmh: yeah both 17:57:02 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0A661.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:57:20 sepi_: By the way, I'm discovering this magical knowledge about ECL by reading the online manual. The ECL crew definitely gets points for documentation. 17:58:46 sepi_: Okay, not sure then, I was going to install ECL and try it out, but it requires me to build from source and I don't have time for that at the moment. 17:59:06 tmh: thanks a lot anyways, I 17:59:13 'll figure it out somehow 17:59:27 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-187-170.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 18:01:33 -!- espadrine [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-153-247.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:01:38 espadrine [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-153-247.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:02:19 Joreji [~thomas@77-20-6-77-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:02:47 p_l|backup: well, that'd probably work pretty well for the case where it is really needed, ie. the REPL. 18:02:49 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-187-170.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:21 I find my long running repl's end up littered with symbols that started out as typos and which ultimately pollute the tab-completion. 18:04:05 Fade: LispWorks is really bad about creating polluting symbols because of the tab-completion. 18:04:44 -!- mheld [~mheld@108.113.38.154] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:04:57 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-141.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo] 18:05:25 I've never used lispworks. 18:05:29 Fade: it could be also interesting to make the REPL routine a little more complex than the classic loop print eval read 18:05:57 Erlang got a routine to reset the REPL itself to clean stray symbols, for example 18:06:02 their x8664/linux binary died on startup when I tried playing with it. 18:06:06 read eval print think loop? 18:06:16 p_l|backup: also a good idea. 18:07:05 Erlang afaik uses that for a very similar reasons to many serverside projects in Lisp - they tend to have a REPL running for years, used for maintenance tasks 18:07:11 a clean package that gets rid of any symbols not defined by the package might be nice. 18:07:17 GCTWA? 18:07:39 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:07:48 -!- osoleve [~sabayonus@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:07:57 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-167-140.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:08:21 Fade: what does that mean? "symbols defined by the package" 18:08:21 -!- espadrine [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-153-247.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:08:37 espadrine [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-153-247.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:08:44 corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:55 Fade: a read-only package that can be temporarily extended? :) 18:09:18 anything in the current package not found in the asdf definition from which it was loaded. 18:09:48 so, internal and exported stuff. 18:09:49 asdf define asdf systems, not packages... 18:09:55 *pjb* is puzzled 18:10:26 well, the package is implied. 18:10:28 -!- kneferilis_ [53a80b70@gateway/web/freenode/ip.83.168.11.112] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:10:31 which one? 18:10:43 And besides, packages don't define symbols either. 18:10:46 pjb: unless you extend ASDF with a way to indicate a package-defining file and a package reset routine 18:10:51 *pjb* is still puzzled 18:11:07 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-141.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:11:07 pjb: but they contain thm 18:11:09 -!- espadrine [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-153-247.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:11:17 espadrine [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-153-247.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:11:57 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-143-190.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 18:12:37 I'm envisioning a symbol maintenance library that is an extension to ASDF. When the system is loaded, a list of symbols is created that represents the "pristine" state. Later, the current state is compared against the list. Seems pretty tricky, though. 18:12:37 -!- espadrine [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-153-247.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:12:42 espadrine [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-153-247.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:12:50 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:12:59 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-187-170.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:13:22 loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.178] has joined #lisp 18:13:37 but what problem is it supposed to solve? i've no problems with accidentally interned symbols 18:14:00 stassats: The OCD problem. :-) 18:14:51 i guess it's not that hard to find problems for OCD which are actually more problematic 18:16:45 I dunno.. after I've been working in an image for a few days, things are usually pretty hairy. it'd be nice to be able to reset it to a pristine state in a way that wasn't as invasive as quitting the lisp and reloading everything. 18:16:56 daniel_ [~daniel@p5082979A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:00 longshot_ [~longshot@180.184.11.79] has joined #lisp 18:17:14 hairy in what sense? 18:17:17 Ugh, I just installed clisp on windows and now .lisp files are associated with clisp. 18:17:19 -!- bsod1_ is now known as bsod1 18:17:21 definitely more a creature comfort than a necessary feature. 18:18:05 in the sense that it's full of little fragments of test code, typod symbols, variables introduced for testing 18:18:17 just cruft 18:19:23 -!- nullman [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:19:41 -!- longshot [~longshot@174.36.149.237-static.reverse.softlayer.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:19:58 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-141.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo] 18:20:29 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5B3267E2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:20:34 heh. first-class images could help with that as well 18:21:15 -!- longshot_ [~longshot@180.184.11.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:21:48 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:22:02 osoleve [~sabayonus@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:14 drdo` [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 18:27:00 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:27:40 longshot [~longshot@174.36.149.237-static.reverse.softlayer.com] has joined #lisp 18:30:45 rme_ [~rme@pool-70-106-129-201.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:35 -!- rme [rme@clozure-C6AF7B4D.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 18:31:36 -!- rme_ is now known as rme 18:32:35 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-105-86-63.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:32:35 -!- rme_ is now known as rme 18:33:35 mister_m [~matthew@c-71-201-6-9.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:40 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-20-6-77-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:37:17 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@88.242.74.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:39:09 -!- tmh [633c8794@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:40:28 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 18:42:35 slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0A661.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:02 Joreji [~thomas@77-20-6-77-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:45:22 mheld [~mheld@68-245-237-112.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:32 -!- yonatan_ [~yonatan@89-139-30-119.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:48:49 espadrine` [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-153-247.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:48:49 -!- espadrine [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-153-247.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:48:50 -!- espadrine` is now known as espadrine 18:49:00 yonatan_ [~yonatan@89-139-30-119.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 18:50:15 Does ecl provide a facility to create a self contained binary automatically from an asdf system including dependencies? 18:50:57 yes 18:51:17 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:52:15 sepi_: it can also make dynamically-loadable libraries out of ASDF systems 18:52:39 the resulting binary can be linked with them (or you can load them at runtime, iirc) 18:52:43 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-92-195-186.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:53:15 is asdf:make-build what I'm looking for? 18:53:27 I think so, haven't experimented with that 18:53:54 somehow the symbol make-build is not exported in my ecl 18:54:20 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:55:21 nullman [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:59 milanj [~milanj_@109-93-201-123.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 19:01:50 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Quit: It's getting dark, too dark to see] 19:03:35 is there any way to use 'counting into' within a loop to count into a variable defined outside the loop structure? i.e. (let ((bytes-written 0)) (loop for c across strng counting c into bytes-written do (write-byte c))) 19:03:53 INCF 19:04:17 stassats: just use incf inside the body? 19:04:47 is that the actual code or just an example? 19:05:49 stassats: it's very close to the actual code 19:06:11 -!- drdo` [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:06:24 -!- Dranik [~dim@86.57.253.61] has quit [Quit:     (xchat 2.4.5  )] 19:06:31 drdo` [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 19:07:07 (let ((initial-position (file-position stream))) (write-byte 10 stream) (- (file-position stream) initial-position)) 19:07:43 or why do you need to count into an external variable? 19:07:56 stassats: ah i can use an :around method to return the # of bytes written too since i have a write-val as a method 19:08:20 doesn't sound like a sound idea 19:08:25 hm? 19:08:49 assuming "strng" is vector of bytes, just use write-sequence, and the length of the vector is the number of bytes written 19:09:15 adeht: i might write two bytes per char eventually and i'd like to keep writing bytes manually for the time being 19:10:35 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 19:11:03 stassats: why is counting bytes in an :around method not a good idea? 19:11:29 it doesn't sound like a good idea 19:11:32 i don't know why 19:11:48 stassats: due to error handling or does it feel like it won't be accurate? 19:14:01 -!- drdo` [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:14:18 drdo` [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 19:14:50 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:15:09 sellout [~greg@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:30 sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 19:15:59 vokoda [~vokoda@host109-156-1-206.range109-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:16:01 -!- murilasso [~murilasso@201.53.192.190] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:18:24 corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:56 It seems that I just had a version without --with-asdf configured 19:22:43 -!- espadrine [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-153-247.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:22:49 espadrine [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-153-247.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:24:53 sellout- [~greg@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:35 jeti [~user@p54B4607D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:40 murilasso [~murilasso@201.53.192.190] has joined #lisp 19:26:46 -!- sellout [~greg@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:26:47 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 19:27:23 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-149-166-62.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:27:47 -!- mister_m [~matthew@c-71-201-6-9.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:30:21 xan_ [~xan@220.241.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 19:30:40 -!- ugoldw [~user@173-162-214-174-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:35:45 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:42:49 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-143-190.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:43:04 francogrex [~user@109.130.80.213] has joined #lisp 19:46:39 -!- loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.178] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:49:20 felideon [~felideon@173.221.53.122.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:24 tmh [633c8794@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 19:52:43 Greetings, again. 19:54:15 horze [~kim@c-5a3f72d5.24-87-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:54:20 -!- horze [~kim@c-5a3f72d5.24-87-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Client Quit] 19:54:44 carlocci [~nes@93.37.205.28] has joined #lisp 19:56:56 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 19:58:47 faux [~user@c-219c70d5.035-128-67626713.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:59:48 -!- drdo` [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:00:05 drdo` [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 20:00:29 -!- ZabaQ1 [~Zaba@1.80-246-213.ippool.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:00:38 hi 20:02:11 iostres [~iostres@93-138-222-69.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 20:02:14 hi 20:02:29 how do I quote variable content? 20:04:02 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-98-234-185-107.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:11 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:04:28 your question makes no sense 20:04:35 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:04:53 lol 20:04:54 :) 20:05:00 ok a better one 20:05:02 `(',variable) 20:05:04 -!- wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-98-234-185-107.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:05:21 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:05:24 -!- sellout [~greg@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 20:05:42 as in (defvar X 3) `(',X) 20:06:05 is that what you meant? 20:06:06 thanks 20:06:07 :) 20:06:15 i forgot about backquote 20:06:19 :( 20:06:25 -!- mega1_ [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:06:37 hi. 20:06:47 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-98-234-185-107.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:23 hi 20:10:11 ch077179 [~urs@adsl-84-227-38-201.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 20:11:07 iostres: Just write (list 'quote *variable*) 20:13:01 billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 20:13:01 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Changing host] 20:13:01 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 20:14:26 What is the issue with: (defmethod fakt ((n (integer 1 most-positive-fixnum))) (* n (fakt (1- n)))) 20:14:41 provided fakt was defined as a generic 20:14:42 Quadrescence: methods can be specialized on classes, not types 20:14:48 oh okay, thanks 20:15:37 bsod1 [~osa1@78.173.127.135] has joined #lisp 20:15:54 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 20:16:20 also whenever you're using fixnum-related stuff, you're likely doing it wrong 20:16:36 adeht: hehe, I was just playing around 20:17:07 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:36 *francogrex* realizes that the first person to have prompted me to use lisp was Richard Fateman! (http://groups.google.com/group/sci.math.symbolic/browse_frm/thread/2f7a8e71ae74f205/a476a491d84ee3c1?q=francogrex+sumbolic+integration) 20:19:03 fateman is a cool dude 20:19:56 in a way, he is/was 20:20:28 was? 20:21:34 I was told a while ago that his daughter is one of the founding members of Le Tigre, which is also awesome. 20:23:24 I suppose he's still alive and in good shape, he's still posting 20:27:25 francogrex: but he may be not as cool anymore? 20:30:49 stassats: it's a possibility; it happens that people switch from cool to uncool 20:31:20 to warm? 20:31:45 to food-unsafe 20:32:39 who knows to what; at least he introduced me to lisp and for that I'm grateful 20:33:45 you just wait, maybe in a couple of years knowledge of lisp will turn out to be a bad thing 20:34:47 -!- parolang [~user@c-64-246-121-114.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:37:00 i use software written by him almost daily (that from the paper on automatic differentiation in CL) 20:37:16 the worst that can happen is one mightget bored and jaded... for that not to happen I think it's good to always try to solve new challenges... 20:37:19 is there a quick way to check if a list has duplicaate atoms in it? 20:37:43 there is a way to remove duplicate elements 20:38:20 yup see remove-duplicates.. hmm 20:38:37 qbomb [~qbomb@firewall.gibsonemc.com] has joined #lisp 20:38:51 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:38:58 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:43:32 Bronsa [~bronsa@host188-119-dynamic.52-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:43:47 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-54.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:44:41 -!- SYSTEM_ARMED [~WITInet@70.234.142.250] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:45:41 espadrine` [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-153-247.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:45:41 -!- espadrine [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-153-247.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:45:41 -!- espadrine` is now known as espadrine 20:48:34 if one has to load a system that depends on other systems (let's say the libs are made "locally" that you don't use quicklisp for), what is an alternate way to load all at once without the multiple (pushnew #P s and the (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op s? would you use "require" for that? 20:49:01 froydnj: around? 20:50:00 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 20:50:36 francogrex: I have a directory where I have symlinks to all asd files that I have produced myself or installed myself. That one is in the paths asdf searches for. I have a script called addasdf that does the linking. Anyway, all dependencies are in the :depends-on part in the .asd file 20:50:48 incf prxq 20:50:51 seems to me the most clean way 20:51:10 I have the same setup 20:51:37 prxq: it gets a bit messy if you have custom version of a library that you only want to use for one project, but in general it works quite fine 20:51:38 so what doesn one use require for (is it deprecated)? 20:51:43 emef0 [~user@c-67-183-86-245.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:04 I don't think require *has* to know about asdf 20:52:10 francogrex: de-facto it seems to be 20:52:11 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0A661.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:52:11 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:52:17 slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1D1C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:17 it does so on sbcl, but I doubt it does the same thing on clisp 20:53:31 luis: pong 20:54:10 froydnj: just sent you an email enquiring about your diff lib 20:55:15 hmm, the second person to ask about diff in a week; I should just put in on github 20:55:29 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:05 I used lemonodor's but it turned out to be too slow for the large input I fed it. 20:56:36 -!- La0fer [~Laofers1@64.120.233.114] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:56:45 La0fer [~Laofers1@64.120.233.114] has joined #lisp 20:57:14 francogrex: the other thing to note is that in ASDF2 there are other ways to specify where to find .asd files. 20:57:28 Such as the ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf file. 20:57:51 In the past week, I've switched over to using ASDF2. 20:57:53 luis: I've got a diff lib already on github! 20:58:04 -!- yonatan_ [~yonatan@89-139-30-119.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:58:23 https://github.com/gigamonkey/monkeylib-prose-diff 20:58:43 Though it's kind of specailized for prose. 20:58:52 yonatan_ [~yonatan@89-139-30-119.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 20:59:03 But there's actually some underlying stuff that can be used to diff vectors of anything. 21:00:09 luis: http://github.com/froydnj/diff 21:00:30 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.91.1] 21:00:44 gigamonkey, froydnj: thanks! 21:00:44 Hmmm. In a .lisp buffer I do M-n to get the next note but the note is too big to show in the window SLIME pops up. Is there some way to see the whole thing? 21:00:59 Switch to the *slime-compilation* buffer 21:01:55 -!- Edward_ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-18-204.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:01:55 it'd be good if you could sort conditions 21:02:07 tcr: thanks. 21:02:19 ok 21:02:25 i often drown in the number of compiler notes 21:02:59 Hello! I wonder about tail-call optimization. 21:03:42 *Phoodus* can't stand compiler notes, and is offended when they can't get declare'd away compatibly across ccl/sbcl/clisp 21:03:43 mega1 [~mega@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 21:04:39 (and about paste.lisp.org) 21:05:01 espadrine: it's allowed but not required in Common Lisp. 21:05:04 stassats: how mean sort conditions? Slime does try to prioritize as you are probably aware of 21:05:39 Does all implementation that optimize it do optimize the same pieces of code? 21:05:46 espadrine: nope 21:05:54 tcr: it does? 21:06:06 espadrine: different implementations have similar, but not the same requirements for tail call optimization 21:06:11 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:06:11 well, C-x ` isn't sorted 21:06:14 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:15 espadrine: you really can't rely on it 21:06:32 you might find a set of optimization settings that will get you TCO in combination with very specific code 21:06:35 stassats: I thought it was, errors first then warnings etc 21:06:39 ...across impls 21:06:43 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:06:46 Or is it sorted according to line nr? 21:06:52 let me check 21:07:25 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 21:08:01 I've only found very few (as in 1 or 2) tail function call situations that didn't TCO between both ccl and sbcl with default optimizations 21:08:07 tcr: nope, doesn't sort 21:08:11 only by line numbers 21:08:19 it's "generally there" if your core isn't convoluted, but you should definitely disassemble and verify if it's critical 21:08:24 s/core/code/ 21:08:33 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-32-8-113.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:08:44 because it's definitely not guaranteed 21:08:48 Does TCO happen if we return inside an if statement? 21:08:58 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-32-8-113.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:01 intronic [~user@58.7.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:09:12 if there's no more work to be done 21:09:26 -!- iostres [~iostres@93-138-222-69.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:09:30 Dynamic closures are easiest TCO achilles heel to hit 21:09:39 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.216.14] has joined #lisp 21:09:45 dynamic closures? 21:09:57 comments/flames please: http://paste.lisp.org/display/118098 21:10:53 erm, binding special variables in LETs 21:11:30 roconnor [~roconnor@76-10-163-203.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 21:11:43 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:12:08 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-143-190.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 21:12:34 rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:44 pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.121.191] has joined #lisp 21:12:57 -!- mega1 [~mega@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:12:58 Phoodus: do you think about TCO when you write lisp code, then? 21:13:04 tcr: perhaps with slime-compiler-notes-tree contrib 21:13:11 absolutely. My code relies heavily on it 21:13:38 well, critical portions of my code is totally based on infinite TCO chains 21:14:31 espadrine: i suspect Phoodus is joking 21:14:50 I'm not 21:15:36 Phoodus: interesting. What do you use TCO for? 21:16:15 mega1 [~mega1@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 21:16:27 simple compiler output 21:16:31 -!- faux [~user@c-219c70d5.035-128-67626713.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:16:35 clauses call the next one via TCO 21:16:43 tcr: indeed, setting slime-compilation-finished-hook to 'slime-list-compiler-notes groups notes 21:17:11 obviously, further iterations will create and eval actual lisp bodies instead of chaining together lambdas in such a way 21:17:20 and it looks familiar 21:17:22 stassats: Was that changed not that recently? 21:17:27 Phoodus: I see, so in theory you have an infinitely deep stack. 21:17:40 tcr: a couple of years ago, i guess 21:17:59 list-compiler-notes is notes-tree? 21:18:12 prxq: the system maintains "what to do next" manually, and TCOs into that. It also allows easy continuations, by simply keeping the "what to do next" aroudn and returning 21:18:14 Phoodus: with chaining lambdas you mean stuff like (lambda (x) (funcall anotherlambda x))? 21:18:15 tcr: yes 21:18:19 yes 21:18:36 (lambda (context) (do-some-work) (funcall (next-thing context) ...)) 21:18:51 it's pretty fast 21:18:55 Phoodus: and sbcl does tco there? 21:18:58 stassats: ok, I still seem to recall that I've seen that behaviour in *slime-compilation*, too, but then I might just be misremembering 21:19:02 prxq: yep 21:19:04 yeah, it was changed on 2009-01-03, almost two years ago 21:19:07 as well as ccl 21:19:08 *prxq* now understands 21:19:30 For the purpose of argument, is a "TCO"ed fibonacci function any better than a procedural one? http://paste.lisp.org/+2J4J 21:19:31 time flies 21:19:50 Phoodus: I was already wondering, but i thought sbcl just had a very deep stack :-) 21:19:54 espadrine: for one thing, it's ugly 21:20:11 -!- jeti [~user@p54B4607D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:20:21 stassats: true 21:20:26 prxq: I disassemble quite a bit, some verifying assumptions, some just because I'm curious 21:20:31 because I do something similar, and thought well, with all this gigabytes lying around, i shouldn't worry. Now I realize that it simply did TCO :-)) 21:20:42 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:20:50 espadrine: TCO fib will compile into generally similar code as a procedural loop 21:21:08 The TCO callback basically overwrites your lexical vars to new values and GOTOs back 21:22:07 and compiler-notes-tree could use some love 21:22:12 prxq: my stuff has had uptime of over a year so far. I verified the TCO before deploying ;) 21:22:35 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:22:59 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 21:23:03 Phoodus: ok. 21:23:04 Phoodus: cool! 21:23:28 prxq: So TCO comes in handy even if you don't notice it? 21:23:44 espadrine: it seems so. 21:23:45 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:24:05 I suppose when you always think recursively, it just pops up from nowhere at times.. 21:24:06 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 21:24:22 -!- xan_ [~xan@220.241.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:24:23 espadrine: http://paste.lisp.org/display/118099#1 that's how i'd write fib 21:24:55 stassats: that's much more procedural. It's how I wrote it at first... 21:25:20 then I wondered wether I could do it with TCO, and I wondered if it was worth the trouble at all... 21:25:28 -!- qbomb [~qbomb@firewall.gibsonemc.com] has left #lisp 21:25:32 "procedural", is it a bad thing? 21:25:36 yeah, shiftf is basically made for that 21:26:13 xan_ [~xan@220.241.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 21:26:37 recursive style is great for early-exit optimizations, and when your algorithm has complex branches 21:26:50 but simple things like fib don't really matter which way you do them 21:27:06 obviously 21:27:27 recursive style is good when the problem is recursive 21:27:45 austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:07 "In order to understand recursion, one must first understand recursion" 21:29:05 is it when you curse over and over? 21:29:18 curse and recurse 21:29:43 cursors, formatted again! 21:29:52 that might actually be etymologically true! 21:30:25 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-20-6-77-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:31:52 i very doubt that 21:32:12 http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=recur 21:33:47 -!- symbole` [~user@rrcs-184-74-223-10.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:33:53 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 21:34:06 symbole` [~user@rrcs-184-74-223-10.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:34:14 Too bad. 21:34:36 -!- drdo` [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:34:54 drdo` [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 21:35:04 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:37:19 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:37:28 DarthShrine [~angus@60-242-109-62.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:37:28 -!- DarthShrine [~angus@60-242-109-62.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 21:37:28 DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has joined #lisp 21:38:07 Do most people here set *READ-DEFAULT-FLOAT-FORMAT* to DOUBLE-FLOAT? 21:38:09 mister_m [~matthew@c-71-201-6-9.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:15 -!- zobbo [~ian@84.93.146.255] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:38:24 I'm thinking about doing that in my init files. 21:38:29 i don't 21:38:53 tmh: no. I usually explicitly tag floats to be doubles, regardles of the default format. 21:38:58 i don't 21:39:20 i actually rarely use floating point numbers, usually rationals instead 21:39:26 why would you do that? 21:39:54 to tmh ^ 21:39:56 francogrex: So that you have consistent precision for all of your floats. 21:40:48 in practice, this can mean trouble 21:41:16 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.216.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:41:17 adeht: That's why I haven't done it yet. Give me an example of trouble, please. 21:42:26 adeht: Ensuring the precision by hand is causing me trouble as well. 21:42:29 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-141.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:42:46 tmh: say there's code somewhere assuming the default's default float format (single-float).. it then does (make-array 42 :element-type 'single-float :initial-element 0.0) <= bad code, sure, but screws you if you set the default format to double-float 21:43:39 would that be expected to raise a condition? 21:43:43 tcleval [~funnyguy@186.213.25.243] has joined #lisp 21:43:44 Phoodus: no 21:43:56 Phoodus: well, it may be expected, from a quality of implementation view 21:44:01 it will make your code non-portable, unless you start your asd with (setf *read-default-float-format* 'double-float) 21:44:32 and this being the realm of maddeningly subtle bugs... 21:44:47 true 21:44:47 prxq: which means your code can't coexist with code which sets it to anything else. 21:44:49 tmh: always 21:44:56 Yes, those are the reasons I've avoided it. 21:45:04 LiamH: I suspected you did. :-) 21:45:36 that's the reason I avoid it. I wish the standard would have used double-float as the default. 21:45:54 tmh: I used to do it years ago, but then stumbled upon that very problem.. since then I am explicit when I care about the actual type.. but even that policy may in turn screw others who set the default to something else 21:46:10 prxq: me too. I don't ever want to generate a single float except explicitly. 21:46:16 -!- pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.121.191] has left #lisp 21:46:31 LiamH: I have a solid mechanics library that is giving me 9 unit test failures out of 768 and I've tracked them down to single and double floating point contagion in the sigfig-equal routine. 21:47:06 so really, it should be (make-array 42 :element-type *read-default-float-format* :initial-element 0.0) for compatibility 21:47:07 tmh: outch. 21:47:31 Phoodus: better use double-float and 0.0d0 and be done :-) 21:47:41 It would be really nice if compilers allowed you to specify at compiler build time how many bits you want for each of the four floating point types, subject only to the restriction that it has to be non-decreasing (short, single, double, long) and the specified number of bits is supported on the given hardware. 21:47:53 Phoodus: if you just want a possibly-specialized array but don't care about the float type, sure 21:47:53 prxq: yeah, explicit on both 21:48:04 tmh: is that in lisp-unit? 21:48:16 Phoodus: except it needs to be #.*read-default-float-format* 21:48:41 true, to get what was actually read 21:48:46 LiamH: Yes, sigifig-equal has turned out to be very useful, but also very temperamental. It is very useful when using examples from textbooks for unit testing. 21:49:03 s/sigifig/sigfig/ 21:49:32 LiamH: I think I need to just fix it. 21:49:55 -!- drdo` [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:50:09 tmh: I'm in the process of overhauling some of my sci computing systems and I had a hackish float comparison which I think it better replaced with lisp-unit's, despite any weaknesses. 21:50:16 drdo` [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 21:51:39 LiamH: Yeah, I actually collected most of the floating point predicates into another library and have been using them outside of lisp-unit. The problem now is that I'm having to edit stuff in 2 places. But, I don't really want to make lisp-unit dependent on another library, I want it contained. 21:51:56 s/contained/self-contained/ 21:52:19 tmh: can you just make it a separate system in the same repository? 21:52:36 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1D1C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:52:55 I'm getting to be of the "load everything" mindset, especially now that quicklisp is here. 21:53:37 LiamH: Sure, but I meant I didn't want lisp-unit to have to rely on another package. Maybe it's not that big of a deal. 21:53:42 *LiamH* routinely loads cl-unicode solely to get the degree symbol ° 21:53:49 Hah! 21:55:36 LiamH: Okay, my 'floating-point' package exports 3 parameters and 6 functions. I'll lisp paste, just a minute. 21:55:47 jeti [~user@p54B4607D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:08 tmh: break it out as a separate module at least in lisp-unit? 21:57:16 LiamH: floating-point -> http://paste.lisp.org/display/118101 21:57:56 ianmcorvidae: #+clisp (setf (EXT:LONG-FLOAT-DIGITS) 1000) 21:57:58 Oh, just a package export 21:58:03 mahmul [~mrw@user-0can1en.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 21:58:10 s/ianmcorvidae/LiamH/ 21:58:36 pjb: for when I have all the time in the world? 21:58:38 LiamH: your whishes are clisp's commands. It's the best implementation! :-) 21:58:39 LiamH: It's all the stuff from lisp-unit. I actually have it in a separate repository, but just as a package export is not a bad idea. 21:58:50 pjb: my experience is quite the opposite 21:59:35 LiamH: It's just organization and I need to update the organization instead of maintain 2 identical sets of files. 21:59:36 LiamH: it's just C-x 8 o in Emacs 22:00:07 -!- longshot [~longshot@174.36.149.237-static.reverse.softlayer.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:00:24 stassats: Indeed, but my CL doesn't use emacs 22:02:00 longshot [~longshot@174.36.149.237-static.reverse.softlayer.com] has joined #lisp 22:04:59 -!- mister_m [~matthew@c-71-201-6-9.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:05:23 -!- vert2_ [vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-joqxkqqtwnakjxcb] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:05:36 vert2_ [vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-leibxqbifjnhdybd] has joined #lisp 22:05:57 -!- jeti [~user@p54B4607D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:06:04 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:06:42 -!- nullman [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:07:16 Edward_ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-47-61.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:07:17 LiamH: why would you use the degree symbol when you have radians? 22:08:19 LiamH: I'll just put the floating point routines and put them in a separate github repository. I'll make a separate branch of lisp-unit that relies on the floating-point package and see how I like it. If it turns out not to be too much of a pain, I'll get rid of the redudant routines in lisp-unit. 22:08:21 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:08:40 tmh: sounds good 22:08:44 -!- javuchi [~noname@39.Red-83-45-69.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 22:12:17 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:14:17 sellout [~greg@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:33 in sbcl delete-file I'm getting couldn't delete file X, permission denied... though the file's permissions are ok 22:16:29 can common lisp peek two chars ahead? 22:17:12 never mind my statement above, it's solved 22:18:31 valium97582: maybe he has celcius or farenheit 22:20:20 leo2007: setting file-position can maybe help? 22:20:22 ok its in the spec. 22:22:43 ok here is (directory "/dir/**/*.*") is supposed to contain only files or also directories paths? 22:24:01 me345 [~me345@75.15.182.128] has joined #lisp 22:25:25 -!- espadrine [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-153-247.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:25:39 espadrine [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-153-247.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:28:44 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 22:28:52 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:28:54 -!- mega1 [~mega1@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:29:10 prxq: But we have kelvins nowadays! 22:29:12 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 22:30:09 vokoda_ [~vokoda@host109-152-181-245.range109-152.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:30:16 Does anyone have a good example of a reader macro character that operates embedded in a token, e.g., : in a symbol, . or E in a float? 22:30:30 -!- felideon [~felideon@173.221.53.122.nw.nuvox.net] has left #lisp 22:32:10 rpg: you mean you want a non-terminating reader macro? 22:32:16 -!- vokoda [~vokoda@host109-156-1-206.range109-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:33:27 tcr: Yes, but I was looking at CLtL2, and I don't see an example of how you get the characters that *precede* the macro character. 22:34:03 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-228-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:34:05 I'm not following, terminating or non-terminating is a property you set via set-macro-character 22:34:22 is the colon in foo:bar implemented via a reader macro? 22:34:54 no 22:35:08 I thought so 22:35:30 and I doubt . and E in floats use them either 22:37:27 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@245-15-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:38:13 *Krystof* is sad that http://paste.lisp.org/display/118099#2 is about an hour late to the conversation 22:40:03 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:41:02 I'm inspired to initiate the "Obfuscated Fibonacci Series Coding Contest". 22:42:42 Phoodus: I'm not looking for those (although such an implementation would be a cool example); I am looking more generally for an example of code for a reader macro character that appears inside a token, rather than introducing a token. 22:44:29 The examples in CLtL2 all explain how one can read from the stream /following/ a reader macro character, in order to assemble a value to return. I was wondering how one can grab up the characters /preceding/ such a macro character. 22:44:51 It's quite possible that there's a juicy example out there somewhere; I'm just not finding it. 22:44:59 -!- wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-98-234-185-107.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:45:44 I thought the intent of reader macro characters were solely as prefixes 22:45:53 You can't except perhaps on a custom, buffering stream 22:47:47 -!- drdo` [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:47:47 The precise example I had in mind was being able to read XML identifiers in a special readtable where ":" is defined to process XML namespaces instead of CL ones. 22:48:07 drdo` [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 22:48:27 you'd need to change the symbol reading function, afaia 22:50:51 rpg: You can use an implementation-internal function to change the constituent trait of #\: to be the same, as say, #\a 22:50:52 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.80.213] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:50:58 -!- symbole` [~user@rrcs-184-74-223-10.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:51:13 symbole` [~user@rrcs-184-74-223-10.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:51:32 then you will read in |FOO:BAR|, or |foo:bar| depending on the readtable-case 22:53:13 -!- me345 [~me345@75.15.182.128] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:54:57 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 22:55:44 -!- cvandusen [~user@68-90-30-246.ded.swbell.net] has quit [Quit: quit] 22:56:32 tcr: Hm. Possibly easier to read strings and process by hand.... 22:56:46 "implementation-internal" seems a bit scary. 22:57:06 iirc, you can do that with standard calls 22:57:24 nope 22:57:41 -!- mheld [~mheld@68-245-237-112.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:57:47 set-syntax-from-char? 22:57:57 Read its specification carefully 22:58:05 Iirc its notes section 22:59:21 ok, haven't done anything myself that distinguishes syntax from constituent traits 23:00:24 -!- Bronsa is now known as Day 23:00:27 -!- Day is now known as Bronsa 23:00:33 plage [~user@116.118.1.133] has joined #lisp 23:00:42 Good morning everyone! 23:01:56 good morning plage 23:01:57 pnq [~nick@ACA39ACE.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 23:02:27 -!- espadrine [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-153-247.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:02:33 espadrine [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-153-247.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:02:35 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440992.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:02:56 tcr: so the package separator-ness of colon is a "trait," rather than a "syntax type," and so cannot be changed by set-syntax-from-char, correct? 23:03:14 the syntax type is constituent 23:03:22 each constituent has a special trait 23:03:25 (yes) 23:04:03 I guess I'm surprised that a language that went to the length of having reader macros, wouldn't support them inside of tokens. But I suspect that's just because I haven't thought deeply about the issues of doing so. 23:04:04 -!- espadrine [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-153-247.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:04:04 what you can do is to make #\: have the same syntax as #\Space, whitespace 23:04:10 espadrine [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-153-247.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:04:19 there are also 3rd party readers that work the same as lisp's built-in reader, but more configurable 23:04:23 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-141.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:04:30 if you need to do weirder things than the spec allows 23:05:23 espadrine` [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-153-247.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:05:23 -!- espadrine [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-153-247.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:05:24 -!- espadrine` is now known as espadrine 23:06:43 Phoodus: The question then is "should I try to jam this into the reader, or should I just write my own tokenizer?" 23:06:58 LiamH: floating-point github -> git://github.com/OdonataResearchLLC/floating-point.git 23:07:03 right, or "use another tokenizer lib" 23:07:44 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:07:51 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440014.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:08:00 drdo`` [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 23:08:35 tmh: thanks 23:09:12 -!- valium97582 [~daniel@187.10.45.61] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 23:09:36 -!- drdo` [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:10:06 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:11:23 -!- espadrine [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-153-247.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:11:28 espadrine [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-153-247.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:11:35 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 23:12:01 kmwallio [~kmwallio@pool-96-241-63-3.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:13:23 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:15:00 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:15:19 qsun [~qsun@66.220.3.138] has joined #lisp 23:18:05 LiamH: It's still not obvious to me how to handle floats with different precision in sigfig-equal. It's not even obvious to me that anything should be done other than relying of standard contagion behavior. 23:19:20 tmh: what is sigfig-equal supposed to do? 23:19:27 LiamH: Oh, and from the ironic files, there is no unit testing of this library. :-) 23:19:41 tmh: OK! 23:20:07 yvdriess [~Beef@109.129.14.3] has joined #lisp 23:20:11 tmh: testing the tester has always been a puzzle, hasn't it? 23:20:20 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-93-201-123.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has left #lisp 23:20:21 prxq: (sigfig-equal float1 float2 &optional (significant-figures 4)) 23:20:31 tmh: ah ok 23:20:54 LiamH: I've actually made a little progress on that front but ran into an issue trying to compare macro expanded forms with gensyms. 23:21:30 LiamH: There is an internal-testing branch for lisp-unit with my initial approach. 23:22:14 LiamH: If I can make some progress with that branch and cover everything in the lisp-unit.lisp file, we'll have the core validated and can proceed to test extensions with the core functions. 23:22:39 tmh: OK 23:22:54 By validated, I mean at least tested to the best of my ability. Rigorous validation is more than I'm interested in achieving. 23:24:42 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:27:25 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 23:27:33 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp121-45-9-24.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:40 Quick follow-up --- what is the purpose of non-terminating in a macro character? Anyone have an example of an appropriate use? 23:28:12 rpg: You want to have $foo work, but still allow baz$quux as a normal symbol 23:29:08 tcr: ah. And typically in the non-terminating case, you don't process the macro character specially? In the baz$quux case, what should the macro function return? 23:29:11 (values)? 23:30:13 in baz$quux the macro function is not invoked 23:30:24 if #\$ is a non-terminating macro character 23:31:04 a non-terminating macro character does not terminate tokens (symbols & numbers), hence its name 23:31:05 tcr: ah. Thanks. I was trying to figure out how it could be invoked without eliding the #\$, but now I see. that makes sense. 23:31:14 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:31:19 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl14-64-62.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 23:32:00 I was misinterpreting "non-terminating macro character".... 23:32:20 Yeah I struggled with the term "terminating", too, perhaps as a non-native speaker 23:33:18 it's about whether a character is allowed a mid-token constituent or whether it separates tokens 23:33:48 tcr: I think it's just confusing. When I read that, I assumed it meant that it was a macro character that was not a terminator, but really, when it's appearing mid-token it's effectively not functioning as a macro character at all. 23:35:09 unkanon [~unkanon@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 23:36:12 it makes some sense in the reader algorithms; a terminating macro character terminates the token-accumulation-loop whereas a non-terminating one does not 23:37:05 tmh: i don't know your use case for that function, but I have an uneasy feeling about it. I'd expect a relative error of some sort based on an estimate of the sensitivity to fp errors to be somewhat more reliable. 23:37:52 -!- tcr [~tcr@77-20-119-246-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:37:58 or rather, to say more about the algorithms being tested. 23:40:43 -!- intronic [~user@58.7.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:41:04 -!- tmh [633c8794@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:41:43 espadrine` [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-96-241.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:42:11 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:43:01 espadrine`_ [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-96-241.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:43:01 -!- espadrine` [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-96-241.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:43:17 -!- muhdik [~IceChat7@parkmobile-usa.oneringnetworks.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:43:33 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 23:43:59 -!- espadrine [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-153-247.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:43:59 -!- espadrine`_ is now known as espadrine 23:44:13 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d01106d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:47:10 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 23:47:54 sellout- [~greg@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:48:05 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 23:48:29 valium97582 [~daniel@187.10.45.61] has joined #lisp 23:48:36 -!- vokoda_ is now known as vokoda 23:48:52 -!- sellout [~greg@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:48:52 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 23:58:39 -!- heloehlo_ [~bfouts@24.30.125.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]