00:00:24 Kerrick [~Kerrick@71-34-186-198.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:00:37 joefu: lisp is a real programming language, you can just _use_ it to write a markup language that fundamentally still feels like lisp, exactly the way you can't use C and interpret parts of your code as markup 00:00:41 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has joined #lisp 00:00:46 joefu: it's a general purpose programming language designed with US Department of Defense funding for industrial strength projects , with enormous participation from industry and academe 00:01:40 mathrick: i'd like to represent the filters as successive elements of a list, and the video is shown in a block at the bottom of the list. 00:01:48 sorry, just trolling, didn't expect so much kindness 00:01:49 with possibly more filters after that. 00:01:52 thanks 00:01:53 -!- joefu [~joefu@2001:7f0:3003:b00b:21e:8cff:feb5:b0ac] has quit [Client Quit] 00:01:57 LoL 00:01:59 hehe 00:03:06 mathrick: i'm also influenced by Little Big Planet somewhat 00:03:57 i don't know how to find the different programs/activities/things to do in squeak. do i have to install them all? 00:03:57 dto: I haven't really seen it besides the video in which somebody demonstrates a working calculator 00:04:05 Ryan9104 [Ryan9104@host-24-100-48-134.newwavecomm.net] has joined #lisp 00:04:07 oh yeah 00:04:12 is it much like minecraft? 00:04:25 i don't think so, but i know very little about minecraft. 00:04:28 ok 00:04:28 people have built 32-bit ALUs in minecraft 00:04:33 lol, I'm in minecraft right now 00:04:37 on my server 00:04:52 one time i was playing LBP with my brothers boys aged 4 and 5 00:05:04 mathrick: if people learn vlsi design by using minecraft, I approve of it 00:05:06 and they were running and jumping around in edit mode with me while i made objects. 00:05:14 i made a big round wheel as tall as a house 00:05:15 Ryan9104: please, stay there, don't go to #lisp 00:05:19 then cut out three holes in it 00:05:36 chose a patterned orange fabric for the surface 00:05:38 what kind of asshole are you? 00:06:03 and each of us jumped in one of the holes and then we dragged the wheel down a giant hill we made and into a sea of pink floaty bubbles. 00:06:06 -!- guest [6de08ee4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.109.224.142.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:06:43 -!- Ryan9104 [Ryan9104@host-24-100-48-134.newwavecomm.net] has left #lisp 00:06:46 dto: woah, how much age difference is there between you and your brothers? 00:06:49 -!- pinkwerks [~pinkwerks@cpe-74-68-129-122.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:07:00 no they're my brothers sons 00:07:09 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-79-187.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:07:13 ahh 00:07:15 i forgot the apostrophe indicating the possesive 00:07:21 pierrep [~ppasteau@bas2-montreal42-3096486625.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:07:22 possessive 00:08:21 dto: that's about the scariest description of Lisp ever, hehe 00:08:38 Caffeine [~satanama@23-73-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:44 Guthur: which one? 00:09:10 oh the DoD? 00:09:11 :) 00:09:18 hehe 00:09:26 dto: yeah the DoD 00:09:29 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h137n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 00:09:35 :) 00:09:39 dto: the story about soapy bubbles is cute, but I'm not sure what it tells me about the programming languages UI, besides perhaps "LSD should be available as an option" :) 00:09:50 -!- austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:11:00 mathrick: oh, little big planet is entirely built with its own built in level editor and you can publish/browse/share levels from in the game with a community of like 3 million people making stuff, and you can import music and also use the playstation camera to paint textures/faces on any object persistently 00:11:19 ah 00:11:43 i have a level saved with big colored blocks with pictures of the kids smiling into the camera on the blocks 00:12:02 lbp 2 supports Move, which i'm excited about. let me find you a video 00:12:07 Cowhm [~sellonc@40.120.124.24.cm.sunflower.com] has joined #lisp 00:12:21 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oy_a3oCDzRA 00:12:35 *stassats* has a hard-time understanding what's going on here, topic or off-topic 00:13:22 dto: anyway, I need to go somewhat more AFK now, so thanks for your time, I'll be happy to look at whatever else you progress to, and out of the questions I asked on reddit, about the only one unanswered is the "set the operation" vs. "SET the lisp form" thing 00:13:22 stassats, It's revolving round dto's iosketch 00:13:46 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.222.247] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 00:13:46 ok mathrick see you soon :) 00:13:52 drifting slightly though 00:14:01 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl14-67-200.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 00:14:14 xavierHart [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/xavierhart] has joined #lisp 00:16:26 Guthur: sorry :) 00:16:58 dto, hehe, oh I didn't mind 00:17:10 it was distracting me somewhat though 00:17:10 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-165-248.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:17:12 dto: one thing I can say about that trailer is that they sure did choose some good music for it :) 00:17:22 *mathrick* goes searching for the cat's passport again 00:18:45 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-164-28.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 00:19:13 is there a good partially-persistent (as in the functional sense) data structure library available? 00:19:33 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:20:10 Phoodus: what's your goal with it? 00:20:22 threaded data analysis 00:20:31 across multiple versions 00:20:59 started working on my own, but if something already exists that's mature that'd be really handy 00:21:07 so you basically want to be able to share objects between lisp images? 00:21:11 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 00:21:15 no, in the same process 00:21:50 changes need to be written to disk in some format eventually, that's it? 00:22:21 no, persistent as in older versions are still intact after new changes have been made 00:22:37 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.14.176] has joined #lisp 00:22:37 the functional programming usage of "persistent", not the storage definition 00:22:49 -!- Cowhm [~sellonc@40.120.124.24.cm.sunflower.com] has quit [] 00:22:52 aha 00:22:56 (well, I guess "functional programming" and "persistent" are equivalent in that sense :-P) 00:23:13 I'm not 100% certain, but I think cl-screamer may deserve your attention 00:23:19 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistent_data_structure 00:23:50 Phoodus: what about conses? 00:23:50 besides that, it somewhat depends on how deep you want your structure to stay the same. You can clone objects... 00:23:53 -!- rabite [~rabite@4chan.fm] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 00:23:57 rabite [~rabite@4chan.fm] has joined #lisp 00:24:03 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:25:08 -!- rabite [~rabite@4chan.fm] has quit [Client Quit] 00:25:15 hmm, screamer at initial glance seems to be about undoable side-effects, not having 2 versions avaiable simultaneously? 00:25:28 Phoodus: could be 00:25:47 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@bas2-montreal42-3096486625.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:26:23 Phoodus: if you find lists to be of a high enough level, you could use that. Most (all?) operations on conses exist in a non-destructive version 00:27:15 Phoodus: you could also make a distinct setf-like function that first copies its object, then modifies it, and returns it 00:27:26 the MOP can help you with that too 00:28:05 well, it's more like having immutable cons-cell-based versions of hashtables, arrays, etc 00:28:54 <|3b|> Phoodus: i think http://www.cliki.net/fare-utils has some of those 00:29:00 set a key/value in a hashtable, it returns a new "hashtable" reference which contains the value, but the original one passed in is still a sensible hashtable reference with the old values 00:29:06 sharing as much as possible to avoid work 00:29:19 ok 00:29:25 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:38:11 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:38:47 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@221.221.254.192] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:39:32 jan247 [~jan247@120.28.106.79] has joined #lisp 00:39:32 -!- jan247 [~jan247@120.28.106.79] has quit [Changing host] 00:39:32 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 00:44:57 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 00:47:52 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:51:55 <_3b> did sbcl get 'smarter' about compiling code with NaNs recently? 00:52:32 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 00:53:07 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:56:16 -!- jweiss [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:59:10 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:59:25 -!- Kaek [~b@c-7ecbe253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:02:53 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-164-28.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:03:07 guidj0s [~gdjs@187.39.191.205] has joined #lisp 01:07:26 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:07:38 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:08:14 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-184-204-176.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:09:58 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@71-34-186-198.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:10:23 -!- s1gma_ [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Quit:] 01:10:56 Kerrick [~Kerrick@71-34-186-198.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:11:08 -!- sdsds is now known as help_im_drowning 01:11:22 -!- help_im_drowning is now known as sdsds 01:11:43 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:12:16 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 01:15:14 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 01:16:58 -!- sm` is now known as theStefan 01:17:01 -!- theStefan is now known as Stefanot 01:17:10 -!- Stefanot [~s@78.157.1.162] has quit [Changing host] 01:17:11 Stefanot [~s@unaffiliated/stefanot] has joined #lisp 01:17:29 -!- Stefanot is now known as smka 01:18:11 kanru [~kanru@61-30-10-70.static.tfn.net.tw] has joined #lisp 01:19:07 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@71-34-186-198.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:20:21 Kerrick [~Kerrick@71-34-186-198.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:18 -!- ebzzry [~ebzzry@203.213.202.186] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:22:18 pierrep [~ppasteau@bas2-montreal42-3096486625.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:22:50 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 01:23:00 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-135-200-251.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:25:46 -!- airolson [~olson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 01:27:20 -!- pnq [~nick@AC815F5A.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:27:51 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-184-204-176.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:28:09 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:29:08 MindVirus [~mindvirus@unaffiliated/mindvirus] has joined #lisp 01:29:13 homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-140-89.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:30:10 Hello. I'm writing my own Lisp dialect that I plan to completely object-orient. How might the n-ary operation + look, syntactically, as a method? 01:30:20 In pseudocode, if you wish. 01:30:40 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@71-34-186-198.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:30:42 <_3b> you could decompose it to a binary function 01:30:51 pnq [~nick@ACA20283.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 01:30:54 <_3b> + doesn't really generalize well though 01:31:26 What do you recommend, then, having a decent grasp of my intentions? 01:32:13 *_3b* has no good suggestions for that problem 01:32:31 Goodness, I've been racking my brain, and I can't think of a solution. 01:33:36 <_3b> actually, what do you mean by 'syntactically, as a method'? 01:34:02 <_3b> are you thinking of non-clos methods with foo.bar stuff? 01:34:36 _3b: I am not taking any inspiration from CLOS. 01:34:51 <_3b> or asking how to specialize meltimethods on n-ary functions 01:34:53 Isn't Common Lisp already "object-oriented"?... Everything is an object... 01:36:01 Who else thinks it's really boring to provide detailed conditions? :( 01:36:31 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483DBF0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:39:20 sluggo [~chris@c-75-64-77-87.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:41:24 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 01:43:09 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:44:05 Kerrick [~Kerrick@71-34-186-198.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:47:31 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@71-34-186-198.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 01:48:53 -!- Genosh [~Genosh@189.Red-83-37-197.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:50:12 Kerrick [~Kerrick@71-34-186-198.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:41 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@71-34-186-198.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 01:50:47 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:51:33 Kerrick [~Kerrick@71-34-186-198.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:47 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 01:58:59 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:01:09 mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:37 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:02:52 jan247 [~jan247@58.71.51.194] has joined #lisp 02:02:52 -!- jan247 [~jan247@58.71.51.194] has quit [Changing host] 02:02:52 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 02:04:55 decaf [~mehmet@78.162.6.60] has joined #lisp 02:05:10 aria_ [~aria@c-98-244-33-187.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:16 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Client Quit] 02:05:28 <_3b> hmm, ecl 10.3.1 says (sys::float-nan-p 1.0) => T too 02:05:50 -!- aria_ [~aria@c-98-244-33-187.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 02:13:05 _3b: I don't even know what I mean. 02:13:43 _3b: What's a meltimethod? 02:14:12 <_3b> MindVirus: a method specialized on multiple arguments 02:17:24 to be pedantic, it's a "multimethod", not a "meltimethod" 02:18:02 <_3b> ah, right, sorry if that was confusing 02:18:27 Oh, no problem. 02:18:36 I figured that's what you meant, but I couldn't be sure. 02:20:27 Although meltimethod has a certain deliciousness about it. 02:20:49 Hello, Zhivago. Perhaps you can chime in on this little conceptual problem I'm having. 02:21:21 I'm writing a fully object-oriented LISP dialect. How would one object-orient the n-ary + function? 02:21:47 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:22:10 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has left #lisp 02:22:11 -!- lukego [~lukegorri@adsl-62-167-162-227.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: lukego] 02:22:26 <_3b> MindVirus: functions are perfectly good objects already :p 02:22:36 _3b: Yes, they are. 02:22:51 LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-117-4.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:22:54 -!- fds [~frankie@unaffiliated/franki] has quit [Changing host] 02:22:54 fds [~frankie@fsf/member/fds] has joined #lisp 02:23:03 Mind: What is "the n-ary + function"? 02:23:06 you could have nullary+/unary+/binary+ and have n-ary + reduce its args using these 02:23:33 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A558D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:23:48 Zhivago: an n-ary function is a function that accepts n arguments. 02:23:52 Kerrick2 [~Kerrick@71-214-232-177.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:23:57 Zhivago: Thus the n-ary + function is addition of n numbers. 02:24:02 urandom__ [~user@p548A558D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:34 Well, the obvious answer would be to have the function as an object. 02:24:47 I recall reading here that Dylan had to tackle that issue as well 02:25:26 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@71-34-186-198.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:25:29 But I suggest that you define what you mean by "object-orient". 02:25:43 Since that's probably incoherent and the source of your puzzlement. 02:25:52 Zhivago: You are most likely correct.. 02:26:04 So what does it mean? 02:26:47 Zhivago: At this point I believe my definition is incoherent. 02:26:51 Want to help me work on one? 02:27:59 -!- aidalgol [~aidalgol@self-implosion.info] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 02:28:45 Well, you could look at what Alan Kay said about it, which is essentially a message driven actor model. 02:31:02 aidalgol [aidan@self-implosion.info] has joined #lisp 02:31:39 His mental model was that of biological cells. 02:32:04 So, if you take this approach you consider a function call to be passing a message. 02:32:40 The simplest way then to resolve your initial query is to consider the function to be an object, and a call to be passing a message to it. 02:32:51 In which case your n-ary problem disappears. 02:37:26 Does that make any sense? 02:49:00 Zhivago: I'm trying to understand. 02:49:38 Zhivago: I understand what you are saying. 02:50:08 In that case object-orientation is trivial and inherently supported by all first-class function languages. 02:54:51 jleija [~jleija@c-98-200-236-23.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:57:31 if i'm going to try my hand at making battleship, should i represent the board as a multidimensional array, or as a hashtable with coordinates as keys? 02:57:50 -!- Kerrick2 [~Kerrick@71-214-232-177.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Kerrick2] 02:58:03 Kerrick [~Kerrick@71-214-232-177.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:58:52 What's the advantage of the hash-table? 02:59:31 none, i suppose 03:00:02 could be used to represent a sparse matrix 03:01:10 I guess, then again, at the board sizes one usually plays battleshi 03:01:13 *battleship 03:03:09 plage [~user@113.161.72.89] has joined #lisp 03:03:47 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@42.Red-217-125-2.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:03:49 Mind: Well, only for immutable objects. 03:03:56 So if one installs slime using quicklisp, what is the good way of making sure that one can type M-x slime inside Emacs and get the version of SLIM that quicklisp installed? 03:04:17 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@71-214-232-177.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:04:20 Mind: So you need to find other stuctures to stash state in. 03:04:22 Kerrick [~Kerrick@71-214-224-204.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:56 do you think a 10x10 board is too large? 03:05:11 Mind: Then you have "the expression problem" -- how do you dynamically extend the functionality of an object in a coherent fashion? 03:05:12 too large for what? 03:05:25 practicality's sake 03:05:25 <_3b> plage: did you install the slime helper thing/follow its directions? 03:05:34 -!- salva_oz [~kvirc@143.Red-95-124-57.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:05:37 osoleve: For humans to play? 03:06:12 drdo: I really don't make anything for any purpose but to see if I can do it. I'm much too much of a newbie to make anything people can play. 03:06:14 m4dnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 03:06:18 _3b: No, I haven't done anything. I haven't installed slime using quicklisp myself, and now my students (who supposedly did that) ask me what the problem is. 03:06:37 _3b: Where are the direction for the slime helper thing? 03:06:55 osoleve: What do you with "practicality's sake" then? 03:07:00 *you mean 03:07:02 -!- Caffeine [~satanama@23-73-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:07:33 <_3b> plage: search for slime in http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/ 03:07:40 Caffeine [~satanama@23-73-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 03:07:43 _3b: Thanks! 03:07:44 drdo: I'm not sure. I guess what I mean is, is 100 spots too many? Should I start with a smaller board? 03:07:46 <_3b> plage: not that it says much, beyond a command to run 03:08:05 -!- Caffeine is now known as Guest86357 03:08:10 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:08:19 salva_oz [~kvirc@222.Red-88-31-90.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 03:08:29 osoleve: Too many for who? For humans? For the computer? 03:08:50 humans 03:08:59 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:09:16 I'm no expert on battleship, but i think 10x10 is the standard size 03:09:31 works for me, thanks 03:09:34 _3b: Sure, but that appears to be the problem. Thanks! 03:11:22 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@71-214-224-204.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:12:54 does Scigraph, as distributed with McCLIM, works out of the box with CLX? 03:14:46 -!- kmwallio [~kmwallio@pool-96-241-63-3.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:16:33 anyone know if there is a L# related channel? 03:18:05 *drdo* wonders what "L#" is 03:18:37 drdo: It's a lisp language for .Net 03:18:42 i think it's french. "Le pound." 03:22:39 rme_ [~rme@pool-70-105-86-63.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:23:21 -!- rme [rme@clozure-78900BDC.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 03:23:22 -!- rme_ is now known as rme 03:24:35 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-106-140-72.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:24:35 -!- rme_ is now known as rme 03:29:12 Kerrick [~Kerrick@71-214-224-204.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:06 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:51 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@71-214-224-204.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 03:32:17 -!- Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Fullma] 03:33:51 A quick look at the L# google group shows some promise 03:34:10 for example, it appears to be offering "hot fuck buddies near you" 03:34:14 necroforest: I looked at it and it seemed 100% spam and dead for a year back atleast. 03:34:48 I guess the project has been abandoned and superseded by ironscheme. oh well 03:34:53 I will survive! 03:35:04 .net is gay and evil anyway 03:35:23 yeah 03:35:32 i totally saw .net hitting on same-sex frameworks 03:36:12 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 03:36:30 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: omghaahhahaohwow] 03:37:27 http://coder.io/tag/lisp 03:37:32 hey schmx 03:38:40 -!- plage [~user@113.161.72.89] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:39:00 -!- xavierHart [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/xavierhart] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:39:40 plage [~user@113.161.72.89] has joined #lisp 03:39:55 "gay and evil" sure is a mature way to look at things. 03:40:00 dto: Hello, dto. 03:40:16 whats up? 03:40:36 i'm checking out squeak and scratch tonight. got em installed and played around with em 03:40:42 just got home, going to play some more. 03:40:45 dto: squeak ST? 03:40:48 yep 03:40:50 schmx: Just keeping it real :) 03:41:01 my user interface work has been very inspired by Squeak Morphic 03:41:03 dto: You might prefer pharo. It's a bit less "silly". 03:41:07 pharo? hmm. 03:41:18 or. any of the nicer smalltalks anyway 03:41:39 dolphin > squeak, any day! 03:41:45 drdo: lol! 03:42:26 Too bad they don't make a linux dolphin. 03:42:27 xavierHart [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/xavierhart] has joined #lisp 03:42:45 hmm interesting. 03:43:39 It's things like these that really makes one consider buying some windows. 03:43:57 i bought a copy of windows a few weeks ago. 03:44:10 You gamer you! 03:44:11 when i bought this computer. 03:44:18 but i installed ubuntu over it. 03:44:22 nah i don't play pc games 03:44:25 Hmm.. Why not buy one without windows then? 03:44:39 i wanted the specific laptop that this is, the tablet 03:44:44 and its only sold w/ windows 03:44:50 oh ok 03:45:25 Two things windows has makes it pretty darned attractive. But other than that I don't see the big benefit of it :) 03:45:28 *schmx* shrugs! 03:45:30 moar code! 03:46:02 :) 03:46:16 well I guess now that monodevelope has the F# addon there's only really one thing. 03:46:22 schmx: i'm going to mess with squeak for awhile. i'm not sure if i have the energy to code 03:47:16 dto: Cools. smalltalk is super (: 03:47:24 schmx: What is attractive about windows? 03:47:38 schmx: i ordered a copy of Adele Goldberg's big Smalltalk 80 book today 03:48:12 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:48:29 so, should i start writing a book about lisp games with an included cd of software and fun stuff? 03:48:35 superflit_ [~superflit@c-24-9-162-197.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:48:47 -!- superflit_ [~superflit@c-24-9-162-197.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:48:53 i've always fantasized about writing books 03:49:31 drdo: dolphin smalltalk! 03:49:36 superflit_ [~superflit@c-24-9-162-197.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:49:50 dto: Can't you get that for free as a pdf? (: 03:49:59 schmx: i don't know. 03:50:04 whatever, it wasn't expensive 03:50:10 drdo: It used to have vs2010, but now there's F# for monodevelope so no need :) 03:50:13 ya 03:50:20 book is nicer than ebook 03:50:34 dto: 'course you should write a book! 03:50:56 how do i reference a cell in a multidimensional array? 03:51:05 osoleve: aref :) 03:51:05 (aref 1 2 *array*)? 03:51:28 the array is the first argument 03:51:52 ya 03:51:54 schmx: I find it really painful and annoying to do pretty much anything on windows 03:52:00 (aref *array* 1 2) 03:52:09 okay, thanks 03:52:14 schmx: ok, i will make a free book and then sell a nice hardcover cdrom edition with color cover, via amazon on-demand press 03:52:14 drdo: I guess it also has autocad. But nevermind that one (: 03:52:19 drdo: k k 03:52:39 drdo: I have found it not annoying at all. Just start whatever software you need and use it. 03:52:55 dto: Make sure you have some opengl and webgame stuff in there then! 03:53:08 drdo: Now if it actually breaks then its kinda shit :) 03:53:18 schmx: Installing software is painful in the first place 03:55:00 drdo: I guess. See I haven't run windows as an OS at home since win 2.0. But I did work on a windows workstation for some years. all I ever did there was start up autocad. it was no trouble anywhere. 03:55:11 drdo: neither was installing it tbh. Just put the dvd in and wait. 03:55:26 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: night!] 03:55:30 Well, using a browser from a windows computer isn't painful 03:55:39 dunno. never did that :) 03:55:53 But using it daily? 03:55:58 It's quite horrible 03:56:02 Yes. 8 hrs 5 days a week. 03:56:13 I found it not horrible at all. So I dunno 03:57:01 schmx: maybe various people could write chapters of a 2nd book, collection of essays 03:57:07 like those big Game Programming Gems book 03:57:08 books 03:57:19 dto: Hey sounds like a plan. 03:57:28 dto: What do you plan to put in the book anyway? 03:57:36 i'm not sure. 03:57:43 stuff about making games with lisp 03:57:50 hehehe 03:57:51 brb i need to eat something. 03:57:55 ta ta 03:58:17 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-168.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:59:37 -!- vasile_ [~vasile@ool-4570abc6.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:59:37 -!- vasile [~vasile@ool-4570abc6.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:59:57 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl14-67-200.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:07:39 schoppenhauer1 [~christoph@ppp-93-104-31-205.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 04:10:08 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:10:42 -!- superflit_ [~superflit@c-24-9-162-197.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: superflit_] 04:11:06 superflit_ [~superflit@c-24-9-162-197.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:12:56 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 04:13:03 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 04:20:14 -!- Guest86357 is now known as Caffeine 04:20:35 -!- plage [~user@113.161.72.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:24:01 Is there a function that counts how many times a substring occurs in a string? 04:24:29 -!- guidj0s [~gdjs@187.39.191.205] has quit [Quit: Some folks are wise, and some otherwise.] 04:24:43 -!- TheSeparateOne [~jeffrey@ip72-207-124-108.sd.sd.cox.net] has left #lisp 04:25:33 -!- rfg [~rfg@client-86-25-216-185.glw-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net] has quit [Quit: rfg] 04:25:35 drl: if the substring is a single character, it's called COUNT. 04:25:51 Otherwise you might probably find it in a library, or write it yourself. 04:26:37 pjb, the substring is generally not a single character. 04:27:50 drl: notice that you have to define it carefully. (count-substring "abab" "abababab") --> 2 or 3? 04:29:24 pjb, the substrings are all delimited by spaces. 04:30:01 drl: This is not really relevant to implement a general count-substring function, is it? 04:30:41 (count-substring "ab ab" "ab ab ab ab") 04:32:23 drl: now, if you mention that the string has a structure, then perhaps it is not the right data structure? Perhaps you want a list of "words" instead? 04:32:26 pjb, I see what you mean. Interesting. 04:33:34 pjb, please explain. 04:34:06 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A558D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:34:38 Well, the choice of a data structure depends on its usage, what problem you have at hand. But it would be trivial to count the occurence of a "word" in a list of workds: (count "word" '("abc" "def" "word" "ghi" "word") :test (function string=)) 04:34:50 -!- xavierHart [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/xavierhart] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:34:55 instead of tryin gto count it out of "abc def word ghi word". 04:35:07 The strings are text of a book. The substrings are individual words. 04:35:32 And I assume you will be counting a lot of words, won't you? 04:35:45 Yes. 04:35:54 Then another reason to transform the string into a list of word, is that it will be more efficient to count the words in that list. 04:36:23 drl: have a look at split-sequence (a library, install it with (ql:quickload :split-sequence). 04:36:54 drl: also to split words in texts, you have to consider other characters than spaces, so you will probably want to use split-sequence:split-sequence-if 04:37:48 xavierHart [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/xavierhart] has joined #lisp 04:38:25 pjb, many thanks! 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[~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:41:19 -!- sellout [~greg@195.54.148.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:41:47 -!- superflit [~superflit@c-24-9-162-197.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: superflit] 07:43:00 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:45:21 sellout [~greg@195.54.148.98] has joined #lisp 07:47:06 -!- buckwheat [~rtaylor@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:49:56 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:53:01 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:53:32 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@145.120.22.20] has joined #lisp 07:57:02 good morning 08:00:01 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 08:02:10 SsvRrwQ [~user@S0106001345655973.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 08:02:47 daniel__ [~daniel@p50829C09.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:03:06 morning 08:03:38 -!- daniel [~daniel@p50829B36.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:05:29 -!- daniel__ is now known as daniel 08:06:22 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-132-191.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:07:49 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-97-249.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:16:25 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-137-66.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:16:27 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:16:32 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:17:36 good morning 08:18:13 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-132-191.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:28:07 lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:32:57 beaumonta [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 08:34:43 -!- paul0 [~paulogeye@187.112.250.203] has quit [Quit: paul0] 08:35:35 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 08:37:00 jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 08:41:23 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:43:50 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 08:45:12 plage [~user@113.161.65.230] has joined #lisp 08:46:04 Good afternoon everyone! 08:47:48 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-59-2.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:47:55 hi plage 08:47:56 hi 08:48:23 morning 08:49:07 Krystof: You seem to be less active here these days. Is this a correct observation? 08:49:08 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.12] has joined #lisp 08:49:35 I am certainly less active here 08:49:50 a necessary consequence of having two jobs and a toddler 08:50:01 Yes, of course. 08:50:18 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-rjskemxxankskcbm] has joined #lisp 08:50:39 can I have two jobs? 08:50:46 maybe someday I will be footloose and fancy free 08:51:04 -!- lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 08:51:05 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-111-75.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:51:05 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 08:51:09 adu: sure! The trick is for the second one to be unpaid. Employ yourself, go wild 08:51:30 issue yourself some shares if it makes you feel undervalued :-) 08:51:53 haha 08:52:07 wow, I can has shares? 08:52:38 Krystof: Sounds like what went through for a couple of years. 08:53:22 I'd be happy with 1 job... 08:53:51 lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:53:59 I currently have 0 jobs and a headful of ideas 08:54:24 most of them would take 75 years to implement 08:54:57 See, that's your problem. Employers really don't want you to have ideas :) [I should stop before I get started] 08:54:58 wvdschel_ [~wim@sundiata.elis.UGent.be] has joined #lisp 08:54:58 unless, of course, I was using lisp 08:55:05 -!- boysetsfrog [~nathan@123-243-214-176.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:55:31 so I should promote myself as a dumb codemonkey? 08:55:58 *plage* refrains. 08:56:17 adu: what ideas? 08:56:39 adu: one idea would be to start working on the idea that will get some income as you work on the others. 08:57:13 there's a bunch of stuff you can do that doesn't involve being dependent on an employer 08:57:24 well one idea is an office suite for phones, but QuickOffice seems to be a fairly sizable competitor 08:58:01 another idea is games, but all the 3D models I've made look like cactii on acid 08:58:26 where do you live? 08:58:58 another idea is math software, but that's a hard field to break into without 50 benchmarking papers in a respectable journal 08:59:15 Maryland, US 08:59:28 hm, ok 08:59:33 adu: B-more? 08:59:46 plage: Silver Spring 08:59:52 it was dumb question anyway, the probability that you live in norway is negligible :P 09:00:07 plage: although I used to go there for parties when I had a life 09:00:17 -!- beaumonta is now known as abeaumont_ 09:00:20 adu: heh! 09:01:02 (i mentioned norway because there'll be game-making competition here soon.. with high prizes) 09:01:20 they'll judge the gameplay, not art (which means, models CAN look like cacti on acid :P) 09:01:31 zvrba: cool! 09:02:51 no, i'm not going to compete, but i know people who will :-) 09:05:01 Ralith [~ralith@216.162.199.202] has joined #lisp 09:06:23 lukego [~lukegorri@adsl-62-167-162-227.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 09:11:31 Guthur [c743cb8e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.142] has joined #lisp 09:11:35 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 09:13:18 -!- iNtERrUpT [~interrupt@61.43.139.4] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:13:26 tcr1 [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:25:28 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-rjskemxxankskcbm] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:28:48 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 09:29:23 sigjuice [~sigjuice@c-71-198-22-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:30:00 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:30:06 dimas [~dimas@ramonak.bas-net.by] has joined #lisp 09:30:45 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 09:33:56 -!- SsvRrwQ [~user@S0106001345655973.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:35:19 iNtERrUpT [~interrupt@59.10.182.46] has joined #lisp 09:35:35 -!- iNtERrUpT [~interrupt@59.10.182.46] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:43:21 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 09:44:49 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-afphqdfulqigqzfx] has joined #lisp 09:44:58 _pw_ [~user@123.112.76.250] has joined #lisp 09:46:31 ehu [~ehuels@109.34.242.216] has joined #lisp 09:46:36 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:46:49 boysetsfrog [~nathan@123-243-214-176.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 09:46:55 -!- _pw_ [~user@123.112.76.250] has left #lisp 09:47:43 SsvRrwQ [~user@S0106001345655973.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 09:49:50 Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has joined #lisp 09:51:12 -!- sellout [~greg@195.54.148.98] has quit [Quit: sellout] 09:52:26 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 09:53:03 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 09:53:30 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:54:36 -!- retrry [~quassel@b4.vu.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:55:11 retrry [~quassel@b4.vu.lt] has joined #lisp 09:56:33 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:56:46 -!- stettberger [stettberge@peer.zerties.org] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:56:51 stettberger [stettberge@peer.zerties.org] has joined #lisp 09:59:11 Joreji [~thomas@85-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 09:59:51 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:00:51 sellout [~greg@195.54.148.98] has joined #lisp 10:02:07 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:02:28 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has joined #lisp 10:02:28 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has quit [Changing host] 10:02:28 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 10:03:31 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-137-66.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:04:23 H4ns``` [~user@p579F8F06.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:04:26 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-afphqdfulqigqzfx] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:04:44 -!- H4ns``` is now known as H4ns 10:08:52 -!- H4ns`` [~user@pD4B9E187.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:10:01 -!- salva_oz [~kvirc@222.Red-88-31-90.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:10:17 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:11:55 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-168.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 10:15:27 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-159-198.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:15:42 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 10:25:39 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.46] has joined #lisp 10:26:55 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-159-198.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:26:57 xan_ [~xan@65.141.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 10:27:45 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-106-117.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:28:11 -!- sluggo [~chris@c-75-64-77-87.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: zZz] 10:33:31 _pw_ [~user@123.112.76.250] has joined #lisp 10:33:33 <_pw_> hi 10:35:03 dfox [~dfox@ip-213-220-225-182.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 10:35:31 hola 10:35:37 <_pw_> I am reading `3. Scope and Extent' http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node43.html, and found it's so obscure, any other newbie-friendly one about this topic? 10:35:46 -!- Salamander__ is now known as Salamander 10:36:10 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@145.120.22.20] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:36:22 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:39:52 _pw_: if you're a newbie, you should probably start with an introductory book 10:42:14 <_pw_> Ralith: I have read PCL, and want to learn about this topic systematically. any good suggestion? 10:42:24 could someone tell me if this is a legitimate way to reduce the code duplication in the function in the annotation? 10:42:26 http://paste.lisp.org/display/117875#1 10:42:42 _pw_: that's as good a text as any; I don't know any writings on that specific topic, sorry 10:43:10 osoleve: there sure are many ways 10:43:21 <_pw_> Ralith: thanks anyway. 10:44:18 Kaek [b@c-7ecbe253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 10:44:20 osoleve: from just looking at it, i'd say you should pull out the (setf (aref and put the conditional calculation inside the aref. i'd also use cond instead of nested ifs. 10:44:57 osoleve: and then, there is probably some opportunity to use arithmetics instead of conditionals, but i don't have the time to think about that in detail. 10:46:07 okay, thanks 10:46:25 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-209-116.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:46:48 _pw_: Wikipedia has an entry about scope & extent 10:47:18 -!- tcr1 is now known as tcr 10:49:01 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-106-117.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:49:06 Kanon [~opera@LLagny-156-34-16-32.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:49:24 osoleve: also, you could try using row-major-aref; your formulas look like they might benefit from that. 10:49:43 -!- Kaek [b@c-7ecbe253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:49:47 (but I'm not yet awake enough to perform the necessary transformations (-:) 10:50:53 Kaek [~b@c-7ecbe253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 10:51:33 cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 10:55:52 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@42.Red-217-125-2.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:56:11 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-111-155.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:57:58 i can't use parens just to block off a section of code, right? 10:58:24 osoleve: do you mean "comment out" by "block off"? 10:58:28 osoleve: (progn ...)? 10:58:36 progn, thanks 10:58:56 it's only 6AM, i shouldn't be up yet much less trying to code in a language i barely know 10:59:16 osoleve: don't use progn unless writing macros. in particular, don't use progn when you need multiple forms in an if or else clause. 10:59:20 osoleve: rather, use cond 11:00:55 osoleve: what did you mean with 'block off' 11:02:00 H4ns: does this annotation make sense? 11:02:01 http://paste.lisp.org/display/117875#2 11:02:13 Guthur: I wanted multiple forms in an if clause 11:02:24 i'm just not making any sense right now, haha 11:02:29 (or, ever) 11:03:04 osoleve: from glancing, it looks more compact and the code that calculates your index is now grouped together better, makeing it easier to review in principle. 11:03:40 mmk, thanks. I think something is wrong with my parens, though, because i think the indentation is off 11:03:51 osoleve: in practice, the indentation is screwed. you need to use an editor that helps you indenting your lisp code correctly (i.e. emacs), otherwise you'll have a hard time getting anyone to review your code here. 11:04:28 H4ns: I AM using emacs, actually, that's why I think something is wrong with my parens 11:04:29 osoleve, maybe you should simply calculate the values before the loop with a LET 11:04:59 osoleve: well, then you're all set :) get your identation straight next. 11:05:06 H4ns: ohh, I didn't go back and re-indent. my bad. :) 11:05:15 -!- codemonk1yx [~codemonke@www.sinclair-durer.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:05:33 thanks for all your help 11:05:55 the function is much more elegant than my original solution 11:07:02 osoleve: C-c M-q reindent the defun you're in if you're using slime and the slime-fancy contrib 11:08:10 -!- nunb [~nundan@121.243.225.226] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:09:10 do i need to be in slime, or does it work in the editor as well? 11:09:17 xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-227-124.lns20.mel6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:09:32 Mu 11:10:28 osoleve: slime extends the lisp editing mode built into emacs, so it'll work in any lisp or slime buffer 11:10:45 nice, thanks for the tip 11:10:46 katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 11:10:46 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 11:10:46 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 11:13:55 how would one go about using a library in CFFI that requires the CoreFoundation framework? (that's on os x) 11:14:31 I've just tried loading the CF framework as a shared lib, and that kills the lisp on a BPT (: 11:15:06 osoleve: I can recommend paredit, it's pretty good for ensuring parenthesis get closed 11:15:09 Yuuhi [benni@p54839D68.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:15:18 or just turn on show-paren-mode 11:16:23 though paredit has some other neat commands for manipulating s-exps 11:16:26 DocOnDev [~doc@12.183.106.234] has joined #lisp 11:16:39 show-paren-mode is mandatory. 11:17:31 yeah, it is a bit 11:19:13 I couldn't survive without it, and it prevents so many stupid errors (: 11:19:18 Really? 11:19:42 I find it distracting :-) If I really need to find out where I am, I just C-M-b C-M-f 11:19:57 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-111-155.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:20:02 hahahaha 11:20:10 good old C-M-b C-M-f (-; 11:21:55 (I suppose this sounds less ridiculous if you have the bindings in finger memory) (: 11:23:28 antifuchs: (load-foreign-library '(:framework "CoreFoundation")) should work 11:25:08 ooh 11:25:46 unfortunately, no: "Process inferior-lisp trace/BPT trap" 11:25:57 This is SBCL 1.0.43.37 11:26:20 uh, hum. 11:26:24 it works outside of slime 11:27:13 -!- sellout [~greg@195.54.148.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:27:37 wonder if there's something stupid I'm missing 11:27:41 *antifuchs* upgrades sbcl 11:27:50 ecraven [~user@140.78.42.213] has joined #lisp 11:27:53 antifuchs: In case of slime, it's no executed in the main thread 11:28:06 aah. that would be it. 11:29:15 C-M-b C-M-f are pretty good; you need to be bit of finger gymnast to use them though 11:32:44 Guthur: Perhaps C-[ C-b and C-[ C-f are easier. 11:33:37 antifuchs: you load it in the main thread 11:33:47 oh, i'm late, nvm 11:34:15 boscop [~boscop@g226224145.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:35:07 plage: cheers 11:35:09 thanks for the hints (-: 11:35:36 sellout [~greg@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 11:36:32 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.46] has joined #lisp 11:43:42 I created a macro but I am getting a warning that the function a is undefined as well as the variables b c. Is that code evaluted before doing the macro expansion? (create-grammar (:rule 'start :var (a b c) ((:nt 'digit)))) 11:43:54 salva_oz [~kvirc@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 11:44:56 The funtion sbcl is complaining about is after :var -> (a b c) 11:46:04 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.91.3] 11:46:31 stdDoubt: You possibly want '(a b c) 11:48:14 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:48:29 but is supposed for the arguments passed to the macro to be evaluated? create-grammar is a macro 11:50:07 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 11:50:07 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 11:50:07 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 11:52:00 -!- Kanon [~opera@LLagny-156-34-16-32.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 11:52:50 stdDoubt: You may have to show us the macro. 11:53:13 I am going to past it 11:53:23 *paste it 11:54:32 drl_ [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 11:54:44 what's is the url to post the code? 11:55:30 stdDoubt: paste.lisp.org/ 11:55:45 thanks 11:56:18 http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp 11:57:24 plage's link trumps mine, hehe 11:58:43 -!- MindVirus [~mindvirus@unaffiliated/mindvirus] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:58:45 made the paste 11:59:47 here is http://paste.lisp.org/+2IYC 12:00:12 the macro is in the end of the file 12:01:30 the problem maybe in extract-rule-set function (above create-grammar macro) 12:01:47 Are unicode spaces different than non-unicode spaces? 12:01:55 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-wcckdomownylyler] has joined #lisp 12:02:14 stdDoubt: That's a bit long. What is the result of (macroexpand-1 '(create-grammar (:rule 'start :var (a b c) ((:nt 'digit)))))? 12:02:49 (MAKE-INSTANCE 'GRAMMAR :START-RULE-ID 'START :GRAMMAR-RULE-SET 12:02:49 (LIST 12:02:49 (MAKE-INSTANCE 'RULE :RULE-ID 'START :TERM-LIST 12:02:49 (LIST 12:02:49 (MAKE-INSTANCE 'TERM :SYMBOL-LIST 12:02:49 (LIST 12:02:51 (MAKE-INSTANCE 'TERM-SYMBOL 12:02:53 :SYMBOL 'DIGIT 12:02:54 davazp [~user@3.Red-83-46-6.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:02:55 :SYMBOL-TYPE 12:02:57 'NON-TERMINAL)))) 12:02:59 :GLOBAL-VARIABLES (A B C))) 12:03:01 oh dear 12:03:08 stdDoubt: paste not in the channel 12:03:13 sorry 12:03:22 won't happen again 12:03:23 stdDoubt: you can annotate your original lisppaste 12:03:30 stdDoubt: Did you mean for that result to say :global-variable (a b c)? 12:03:47 -!- puddingpimp [npetbx@118-93-162-219.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:04:02 stdDoubt: Because there, (a b c) will be evaluated, so a needs to be a function, and b and c need to be variables. 12:04:34 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:04:44 need to quote it when processing then 12:04:58 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 12:04:59 stdDoubt: See, that wasn't too hard. 12:05:44 -!- DocOnDev [~doc@12.183.106.234] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:06:04 Thanks 12:06:18 No problem. 12:07:49 carlocci [~nes@93.37.223.114] has joined #lisp 12:08:11 hehe just heard this: There are only two industries that refer to their customers as users. 12:09:20 Jabberwockey [~jgrabarsk@selene.ftk.de] has joined #lisp 12:09:42 When dealing with utf-8 strings, is there more than one type of space sothat might cause a search to fail? 12:10:26 When dealing with utf-8 strings, is there more than one type of space so that a search might mysteriously fail? 12:10:38 drl_: Hold on a sec. What is a UTF-8 string? UTF-8 encodes unicode as a sequence of bytes. 12:11:16 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has joined #lisp 12:12:02 plage, should I have said unicode instead of utf-8? 12:12:23 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sbahra] 12:12:32 -!- Kaek [~b@c-7ecbe253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:12:36 drl_: I don't know. But if you had said that, it would have made more sense. 12:13:15 there any a few unicode whitespace character points 12:13:18 *are 12:13:22 drl_: And yes, I am not a unicode expert, but there are other spaces that are not the ASCII space. 12:13:30 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-123-46.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:13:47 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-209-116.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:14:06 plage, here is a sample: "   ·      ·" 12:14:37 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 12:15:32 drl_: So what fails? 12:16:10 plage, Is there any easy way to tell the difference between the different spaces? 12:17:00 drl_: They have different code points. 12:17:07 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:18:05 When I do this: (setf sub (concatenate 'string " " sub " ")) some of the substrings I searching for are missed. 12:18:18 http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/chars/spaces.html is what I got when I typed "unicode spaces" to Google. 12:18:53 drl_: concatenate doesn't search for anything. 12:19:52 -!- xan_ [~xan@65.141.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:20:37 plage, I know, but it puts a space on both ends of the substring I'm searching for. :) 12:21:32 plage, ...so I don't find strings is the middle of words. 12:21:33 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:23:24 drl_: So you are saying (search x (concatenate 'string " " x " ")) fails for some x? 12:23:41 plage: is Scigraph (in McCLIM) working? 12:25:23 p_l|backup: Sorry, don't know. 12:27:29 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-164-28.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 12:27:53 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-gbpkrlddvnmygadu] has joined #lisp 12:27:53 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-gbpkrlddvnmygadu] has quit [Changing host] 12:27:53 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 12:29:39 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 12:29:44 Kaek [~b@c-7ecbe253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 12:33:57 -!- Kaek [~b@c-7ecbe253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Client Quit] 12:36:51 Kaek [~b@c-7ecbe253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 12:44:24 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 12:45:11 paul0 [~paulogeye@187.112.250.203] has joined #lisp 12:47:23 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:48:37 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:50:25 plage, this is what I'm doing: http://paste.lisp.org/display/117879 12:51:53 plage, counting substring occurreance, 12:56:31 reb` [~user@nat/google/x-lpqisuoimgqfbscy] has joined #lisp 12:59:06 -!- reb [~user@nat/google/x-eiavwxdgkdgxfejk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:01:21 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-158-218.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:02:27 hlavaty [~user@95-88-27-48-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 13:02:29 -!- churib1 [~tg@dslc-082-082-108-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:02:41 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-158-125.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: "Object-oriented design" is an oxymoron] 13:03:17 drl_: for what reason are you concatenating spaces at the beginning and end? 13:04:40 oh, you probably want to count words only 13:04:48 stassats, I'm trying to find whole words only, not a string in the middle of a word. 13:04:55 but what if it's in the beginning or at the end? 13:06:02 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 13:07:06 stassats, There are spaces before and after every word in the file (put there by me to make searching simple). 13:08:30 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:08:41 -!- Kovensky [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:08:46 Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 13:09:17 stassats, a sample line: "(Mat 1:6 )        ." 13:09:31 if you don't care about performance (which your current code demonstrates), you can use split-sequence to split the words it beforehand 13:13:47 stassats, actually I do care about performance, but I'm not yet very advance in Lisp. 13:14:45 -!- boysetsfrog [~nathan@123-243-214-176.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: ...] 13:15:21 stassats, what do you mean by "split the words"? 13:15:44 "abc def" => ("abc" "def") 13:17:37 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:17:51 ymasory_ [~ymasory@grok.psych.upenn.edu] has joined #lisp 13:18:01 and then counting the number of occurrences becomes trivial: (count "abc" '("abc" "def") :test #'string=) 13:18:10 -!- ymasory_ is now known as ymasory 13:18:39 and as for distinguishing several types of unicode spaces, you can use http://weitz.de/cl-unicode/ 13:18:56 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-167-123.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:20:12 e.g. (cl-unicode:has-binary-property #\NO-BREAK_SPACE "White_Space") => CL-UNICODE-NAMES::WHITESPACE 13:20:15 -!- DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has quit [Quit: DarthShrine] 13:20:52 Kovensky [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has joined #lisp 13:23:02 drl_: and if you use cl-ppcre-unicode, you can do the following: (cl-ppcre:split "\\p{White_Space}" "   ·      ·") 13:23:18 drl_: it will distinguish all kinds of unicode spaces 13:24:53 -!- drl_ [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:24:59 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:25:38 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-111-155.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:26:55 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: omghaahhahaohwow] 13:27:10 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 13:30:43 -!- silentbicycle [~scott@99-55-246-143.lightspeed.gdrpmi.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 13:30:54 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 13:31:47 silentbicycle [~scott@99-55-246-143.lightspeed.gdrpmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:32:30 Xach: how long do you expect to keep QL in beta? 13:32:47 not that it makes much difference to my usage, more curious than anything 13:33:06 sm`wor [~chatzilla@78.40.4.40] has joined #lisp 13:33:12 Guthur: I have a few things I'd like to finish before considering it non-beta. 13:33:46 oh, is there new features to come? 13:34:44 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 13:34:56 Things like archive validation with PGP and an easy way to install different dists, and different versions of a dist. 13:35:11 bsod1 [~osa1@188.56.143.60] has joined #lisp 13:35:23 -!- Onyxyte [~Onyxyte@r75-110-112-109.rmntcmtc02.rcmtnc.ab.dh.suddenlink.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:36:48 And arbitrary signed tarballs 13:37:43 that sounds useful 13:38:24 drl_ [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 13:38:27 I also want to provide a lot more info both about the projects available via quicklisp and quicklisp itself 13:38:52 Like: what license does project foo have, and where is its source from, and where is its documentation and website? 13:39:05 -!- Joreji [~thomas@85-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:39:07 the only thing that nags me somewhat is the maintenance of QL tracked dists going forward 13:39:09 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 13:39:18 is there a lot work sitting on your shoulders? 13:39:32 Not at the moment. 13:40:26 Is that because most projects are very mature and don't change much? 13:41:26 Not especially. It's partly a lot of automation, and partly because Quicklisp is new and hasn't run into any big conflicts yet. 13:41:55 -!- kanru [~kanru@61-30-10-70.static.tfn.net.tw] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 13:43:42 cool, automation is good 13:46:55 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Quit] 13:46:59 It's been fun to find, report, and sometimes fix compatibility problems with projects and implementations. I hope to automate testing so other people can report & fix too. 13:47:10 paradoja [~paradoja@118.pool85-59-33.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 13:47:13 p_l|backup: SciGraph did (mostly) work when I tested it a few years ago. At least the demos worked. 13:48:02 hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-174.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:56 hi Xach. 13:49:00 howdy dto 13:50:04 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: omghaahhahaohwow] 13:50:17 i forgot to mention i've made a release branch v0.2 and pushed it to master on github. i need to update the README and such, but i'm just about ready to submit iosketch. now, there is the font issue, but i'm not sure how to package the fonts so that they'll be findable by other packages, so I'm inclined to keep the fonts where they are for now. 13:50:33 s/submit/quicklispify 13:50:39 if yo're still interested. 13:51:27 it's not really neccessary to do it now, during this phase of dev it might be simpler to just have people github it 13:52:46 Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:53:16 i've been looking at resources on livecoding 13:53:21 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-167-123.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:53:24 Somelauw [~anonymous@031-214-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl] has joined #lisp 13:53:34 *Xach* scratches chin 13:55:18 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:57:24 http://waveplace.com/resources/tutorials/movie.jsp?id=110&format=ogg 13:57:47 Xach: i'm going to flesh out the workspace and menus this week, and make something really spiffy :) 13:59:44 but yeah i am starting to think i have enough material for a book, and this iosketch stuff seems a good way to make the code i've written more pretty and accessible. i wonder if i could print the whole book in color. 13:59:46 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 13:59:50 *dto* looks at lulu 14:00:08 barandis [~thomas@66.208.14.74] has joined #lisp 14:01:02 nice, the libfreenect bindings look good. verrazano is pretty excellent. 14:01:19 but it's so hard to find and install 14:01:28 hee hee hee 14:01:33 if only there was some sort of lisp package manager! 14:02:37 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:03:26 sabalaba [~sabalaba@123.113.105.235] has joined #lisp 14:04:38 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 14:05:51 skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:28 whoa, printing a 200 page book in color even on the standard paper, in paperback binding, would be expensive. $45 to manufacture. 14:06:46 mtk0 [~mtk@ool-182c8e6c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:09 -!- skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has left #lisp 14:07:56 dto: It still amazes me that philip greenspun got a publisher to print a glossy, full color photo book about running oracle and aolserver. 14:08:15 Xach: i never heard about that. was it good? 14:08:57 but now i'm using this color coding thing for blocks and making it about games, so color would be nice. plus, it being in color might be an incentive for people to buy the book rather than use up 5 ink cartridges printing it on a color inkjet :) 14:09:38 pdo [~pdo@217.33.254.141] has joined #lisp 14:10:06 dto: I found it fascinating at the time, though I don't think it holds up well in hindsight. 14:10:16 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-164-218.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:10:25 well lisp books seem to be the thing to do 14:10:52 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1558605347/ 14:11:03 i'd like to follow the free model with probably creative commons for the book and then just sell a nice version 14:11:11 brb 14:12:49 muhdik [~IceChat7@parkmobile-usa.oneringnetworks.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:40 muhdik_ [~IceChat7@parkmobile-usa.oneringnetworks.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:19 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-oaoacgiaroaztseo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:19:36 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:19:47 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:20:36 jweiss [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:21:44 yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 14:24:25 morphbot [~morphbot@p57B57BFE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:27 -!- morphbot [~morphbot@p57B57BFE.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 14:25:35 -!- Somelauw [~anonymous@031-214-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl] has quit [Quit: Ik ga weg] 14:25:43 Hi! Have anybody tried yet to compile-implementation in clbuild2? It seems that does not work yet? 14:25:58 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.14.176] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:26:10 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has left #lisp 14:26:18 yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 14:27:11 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-111-155.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:27:35 Xach: people are going to freak out at me about this, but i'm going to implement my own little MDI style window system a la squeak, as well as multiple Real OS Window (TM) support 14:27:57 dto, morphic 14:28:08 yvdriess: yes. oh hello, we haven't spoken in years! 14:28:10 how are you? 14:28:12 Oh, you have to install-from-upstream first... 14:28:19 mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:21 yvdriess: have you seen what i'm working on ? 14:28:25 pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:ddfc] has joined #lisp 14:28:25 very morphic 14:28:31 busy :) trying to finish my implementation so I can start writing the phd thesis 14:28:31 hi 14:28:36 yup, checking the blog 14:28:41 Maybe?! 14:28:43 hi Posterdati. 14:28:49 I once started on a lispy morphic using your clon lib 14:28:55 dto: What is Real OS Window (TM) 14:29:15 I implemented a morphic for ambienttalk (also a prototype-based lang) 14:29:16 multiple top level windows that the OS window manager knows about. 14:29:21 and it's actually pretty simple 14:29:26 *dto* looks up ambienttalk 14:29:26 please I've got a silly question: I watch the "land of lisp" cartoon at one point the guy says "lack of state is always granted" or similar. What does it means? 14:29:28 and best to keep it simple 14:29:41 because someone writing a UI in it needs to know most of the ins and outs 14:29:59 https://github.com/dto/iosketch/blob/master/blocks.lisp 14:30:26 your sketchup in lisp :) 14:30:49 iirc there was a really interesting visual programming language at the emerging languages symposium 14:30:51 one sec 14:30:58 i like morphic because everything is recursively defined, and you can override what happens down in the tree down to the leaves for hit testing, grabbing, hovering, rendering, layout, etc etc etc 14:31:10 yvdriess: ooh :) 14:31:14 http://thyrd.org/ 14:31:35 a collegue told me it has a really cool kernel at its base 14:31:48 ooh, grid programming . 14:32:02 dto, yeah exactly, I used the same to do distributed UIs 14:32:09 http://dto.github.com/notebook/cellmode.html 14:32:20 which is easy in morphic, as all the state/behavior is in the same morph object 14:32:23 this is my first visual lang project 14:32:30 dto: people will only freak out if it falls into the uncanny awesome valley 14:32:36 what's that? 14:33:04 Posterdati: in which square is that? 14:33:06 dto: well, when it's plainly not awesome, nobody will try it and nobody will care. but if it's really awesome but people don't like the mdi, they might freak out. 14:33:16 oh. 14:33:30 pmd: I replay it 14:33:51 Xach: :) 14:34:21 sav [~lsd@jagat.xored.org] has joined #lisp 14:34:30 pmd: at 2:26 14:35:05 pmd: ...because the lack of state will always be ensured. 14:35:12 Xach: i'm using the term mdi loosely, mainly it's now easy for me to implement dragaround windows with property lists and methods and stuff to inspect any game object like in Etoys 14:36:25 Posterdati: maybe he talks about government? 14:36:38 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:36:38 stassats: lol 14:36:40 Posterdati: that reflects mostly the author's utopia about lisp than reality 14:36:50 dto, this will also interest you 14:36:51 http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/kodu/ 14:36:58 Posterdati: in reality, you have to watch out for closures 14:38:06 -!- sm`wor [~chatzilla@78.40.4.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:38:27 pmd: aha lambda function? 14:39:35 kodu looks cool. 14:41:07 a closure (lambda) captures state, basically 14:41:11 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 14:41:15 kanru [~kanru@118-168-233-48.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:41:38 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:41:53 (let ((val 42)) #'(lambda (val) val)) 14:41:57 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 14:42:37 now imagine someone changing the value 'val' in the let 14:42:38 yvdriess: are you sure? 14:42:41 argh 14:42:50 (let ((val 42)) #'(lambda () val)) 14:43:14 or just (let ((val 42)) (defun foo () val)) 14:43:23 (foo) will return 42 14:43:25 xinming_ [~hyy@115.221.10.96] has joined #lisp 14:43:59 but you can never be sure that (foo) will always return 42 14:44:09 charliekilo [~charlieki@70-89-224-81-BusName-panjde.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:44:11 in this case, you can 14:44:26 sbcl doesn't even make it a closure 14:44:27 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:44:33 don't make me bloat the example :) 14:44:49 no need to: (let ((val 42)) (lambda () (incf val))) 14:44:50 yvdriess: what do you mean "captures state"? 14:45:08 (let ((val 42)) (defun foo () val) (defun inc () (setf val (1+ val)))) 14:45:12 there 14:45:50 I usually just think of closures as a function pointer and a block of implicit parameters for the free variables 14:45:57 yvdriess: I see state as the variable X in systems theory X'=AX+BY, Y=CX+DU 14:46:26 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has joined #lisp 14:46:26 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has quit [Changing host] 14:46:26 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 14:46:26 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.221.14.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:46:36 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 14:46:56 I see state as a 'slot' that contains a value 14:46:58 and that can be changed 14:47:33 I don't think mutability is a necessary attribute of closures 14:47:35 if the code in a lambda cannot find a certain variable name in its local scope, as is the case for (lambda () val) 14:47:42 it will look in the scope where it was defiend 14:47:44 defined 14:47:58 yvdriess: ah ok 14:48:00 dlowe: without mutability you wouldn't need closures 14:48:02 http://subtextual.org/subtext2.html 14:48:05 in C, functions die after they have been applied 14:48:09 not so in lisp 14:48:39 yvdriess: and what would they do? 14:48:39 dto, yvdriess: the link for you, if you're not aware yet 14:49:20 a trick often used in scheme is to use functions as 'objects' 14:49:31 -!- salva_oz [~kvirc@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:49:33 I'll have to use pastebin for this, sec 14:50:32 wouldn't it be better for Posterdati to read some introductory book, instead of explaining basic concepts? 14:50:53 because basic concepts are boring 14:50:57 But closures are cool 14:51:32 interesting 14:51:39 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 14:52:40 knobo [~user@138.80-202-64.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 14:52:56 what is OpenDCL? 14:53:02 Are there any CL implementations anyone can think of which don't support tail call optimization? 14:53:37 jdz: i've seen that logic spreadsheet somewhere before . it's cool 14:53:52 Quadrescence: abcl? 14:54:08 there, excuse my use of scheme 14:54:09 http://paste.lisp.org/display/117884 14:54:10 Quadrescence: clisp 14:54:17 Quadrescence: define support 14:54:27 stassats: for example :) "praise for practical commo lisp" 14:54:29 stassats, agreed 14:54:49 is it supported if you have to restrict yourself to a certain number of cl facilities? (: 14:54:58 I would recommend Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs 14:55:07 Posterdati: "praise"? 14:56:06 to bad jvm does not support tail calls. .net does, and MS is doing what they can to make crl as good as it can for F# 14:56:16 dto: exactly my impression. 14:56:26 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-35-23.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:28 *guaranteed* tail-call optimization 14:56:41 jdz: i'm not sure how well truth tables would go over with the general public tho. but i like it 14:56:50 Intensity [ik2HgrTECt@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 14:56:50 -!- mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mheld] 14:57:06 antifuchs: I'd say that. I am sure there are many cases where tail call elimination would get hairy to include. But I guess I am wondering if (and why wouldn't) an implementation would optimize something like (defun fact (n &aux x) (if (<= n 1) 1 (fact (1- n) (* n x)))) 14:57:21 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-123-46.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:57:36 clisp would optimize that 14:57:46 but it won't optimize mutual tail-recursion 14:57:52 ah 14:57:53 so it's only about self-calls 14:58:18 guess clisp is useless eh 14:58:18 sure. anything that uses special variables or conditions is out though. 14:58:21 I kid. 14:58:40 -!- retrry [~quassel@b4.vu.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:59:00 abcl runs on the JVM which doesn't do tailcalls, so I doubt abcl will optimie that to a loop 14:59:14 retrry [~quassel@b4.vu.lt] has joined #lisp 14:59:41 it could optimize self-calls, couldn't it? 14:59:56 -!- benny [~benny@i577A21C7.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:00:13 yes, but I don't think it does 15:00:42 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 15:00:43 with emphasis on "think" 15:01:10 -!- barandis [~thomas@66.208.14.74] has quit [Quit: barandis] 15:02:44 salva_oz [~kvirc@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 15:04:12 i remember someone altering the jvm (for himself, that is) to support tail-calls: http://jauvm.blogspot.com/ 15:04:43 jdz: Subtext seems cool... Does it work on OS X or Linux? 15:04:47 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 15:05:00 peterhil: don't know, i have only watched the presentation 15:05:02 pmd: it isn't that difficult actually 15:05:06 Ah, ok 15:05:30 peterhil: they are providing the source as far as i can see 15:05:33 pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925384990.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:05:35 Well, apparently not... It's an exe 15:06:11 And programmed with C# 15:06:57 weasels 15:06:57 jobf, pmd: as far as I know, Bigloo implemented tail call elimination on the JVM. 15:07:10 (because Scheme requires it) 15:07:15 peterhil: well, in the subtext2.zip i can see the source 15:07:17 but ABCL doesn't. 15:07:18 jobf: the problem with the evolution of java has never been difficulty of implementing features 15:07:53 ehu: it's an option; the trampoline costs a not insignificant performance hit. 15:08:07 ehu: kava IIRC does not (it gieves way lower performance) 15:08:13 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp3255.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: A subtle thought that is in error may yet give rise to fruitful inquiry that can establish truths of great value.] 15:08:22 ehu: interesting. so saying the jvm doesn't support tail-calls is fud? or it supports but it's really hard to do it? 15:08:33 Xach: what do you think of Common Blocks as a name for my project? 15:08:34 ehu: problem with scheme and compilation is it's very dynamic 15:08:41 jdz: I guess you need mono or at least some C-sharp plugin for XCode to compile it on OS X 15:08:53 pmd: the jvm doesn't support tail calls without trampolines, aiui 15:08:56 Xach: instead of the possibly apple-might-sue-me IOSketch 15:09:05 peterhil: and after a bit of a link clicking, http://coherence-lang.org/ 15:09:09 dto: hmm, it seems a little boring. 15:09:12 pmd: the JVM doesn't support tail calls; in general, tail call optimisation breaks its security model. 15:09:28 pmd: stock jvm:s doesn't, you can however implement your onv over it 15:09:33 Xach: what about BRIX 15:09:55 never mind, it's a language already 15:10:02 http://brix-os.sourceforge.net/ 15:10:03 dto: If you're worried about name conflicts from big corporations, that seems too easy... 15:10:08 antifuchs, pkhuong, jobf: thanks :) 15:10:21 Xach: i already have someone threatening to sue me over xong 15:10:47 if Common Blocks is boring, it may have the advantage of nobody wanting to sue over it 15:11:11 i'll ask on #dataflow and see what they think. 15:12:01 jdz: ok 15:12:08 how about Visual Common Bricks, or VCB 15:12:20 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 15:12:55 BillR [43a45d64@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.164.93.100] has joined #lisp 15:13:04 meh, textmate indentation for lisp isn't good 15:13:20 i'll go for emacs, but i'll have to learn it also 15:13:41 hi what is this #+ thing in lisp, thanks! 15:13:56 BillR: it's a structural #ifdef (: 15:14:22 BillR: it checks if the name following #+ is a keyword on the list *features* 15:14:30 sssssort of 15:14:42 clhs #+ 15:14:45 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/01_ebaa.htm 15:14:55 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/24_aba.htm also 15:15:14 (that link was not as helpful as I'd hoped. xach's is better) 15:15:37 i see, thank you all, i got the idea, and wil read the urls 15:21:14 Joreji [~thomas@85-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:24:01 ziarkaen 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[~benny@i577A14B5.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:14:32 Xach: what about the name ioforms? 16:14:57 ziarkaen__ [~ziarkaen@46.166.pn.adsl.brightview.com] has joined #lisp 16:15:04 dto: sounds like an ibm 3270 application. 16:15:08 heh 16:16:08 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:16:08 -!- drl_ [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:17:59 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:18:08 -!- ziarkaen_ [~ziarkaen@155.31.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:19:11 -!- sellout [~greg@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Quit: sellout] 16:23:26 ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 16:24:14 ziarkaen_ [~ziarkaen@87.113.53.52] has joined #lisp 16:26:04 felideon [~felideon@173.221.53.122.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:56 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:27:16 -!- prip 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[c743cb8e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.142] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:59:29 Twinkle [~anonymous@031-214-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl] has joined #lisp 16:59:43 I am trying to get emacs and slime to work together. 16:59:56 Twinkle: generally not too much of a hassle. how's it going? 16:59:56 Hmm what's a convenient way to check if an element is contained in a list or not? 17:00:04 qfr: MEMBER is one way 17:00:12 Ah, thanks 17:00:29 According to practical lisp, I can just put a function in a file. 17:00:40 And then I could just enter that function on the repl. 17:00:45 Twinkle: very true. that's where I put my functions. 17:00:56 But it doesn't work, so I think I should somehow import the function. 17:00:58 I use C-c C-c to send my functions (and other forms) to the repl. 17:01:06 Twinkle: what part doesn't work? 17:02:36 It says: C-c C-c is undefined. 17:02:51 Twinkle I think he was saying he bound it himself 17:02:52 Twinkle: What is the name of your file? 17:02:55 Using global-set-key? 17:03:01 qfr: Who is saying that? 17:03:02 hello.cl 17:03:06 Or not :| 17:03:17 I did M-x slime 17:03:21 Oh, cl is a common extension for Common Lisp code? I used .lisp :( 17:03:27 I dis C-x C-f hello.cl 17:03:29 qfr: No, it isn't. 17:03:31 I typed the function 17:03:33 Ah, ok 17:03:49 I c-f b (enter to get to slime repl) 17:04:09 I also tried C-c C-c while being on the function definition. 17:04:11 Twinkle: is the buffer in lisp mode? 17:04:18 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:04:22 How to get the buffer in lisp mode? 17:04:39 Twinkle: if you name your file foo.lisp, that will usually be automatic, if slime is loaded and initialized. 17:04:48 Twinkle: for hello.cl, try M-x lisp-mode 17:05:06 You can add an extension hook for that though 17:05:18 -!- benny` is now known as benny 17:05:29 (add-to-list 'auto-mode-alist '("\\.cl$" . lisp-mode)) 17:05:34 You sure can. But unless you work for Franz, probably better to go with the flow and name the file with .lisp. 17:05:43 I brought it into lisp mode. 17:05:50 I will try renaming my file. 17:05:52 Who is Franz? 17:05:53 Twinkle: does C-c C-c work? 17:06:13 qfr: Franz is a graph database company that has a long Lisp history. 17:06:30 qfr: including naming Lisp files with a .cl extension. 17:07:29 Why is it that Lisps have such a small share of the programming language market? 17:07:40 Yes, it finally works. 17:08:11 -!- Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:08:20 Does anyone know if there are any arbitrary precision floating point libraries for CL? 17:08:43 Quadrescence: I don't know about libraries, but I think clisp supports them. 17:08:51 (I checked the Mathematics section on Cliki, and didn't see anything) 17:08:52 Also, someone once told me that for standalone files you shouldn't use extensions, but shebangs instead. Does that also work for emacs/slime) 17:09:02 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 17:09:10 Xach: hm, maybe it's time to write one then. :) 17:09:15 Thanks, for getting slime to work, by the way. 17:09:15 Twinkle: You might want to clarify that advice with whoever gave it to you. It is not great advice on the face of it. 17:09:16 -!- davazp [~user@3.Red-83-46-6.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:09:35 Twinkle: At least, not for Lisp. 17:09:48 For python, perl and vim it works excellent. 17:10:00 Twinkle: Lisp is not like Python or Perl. 17:10:35 And emacs != vim probably. 17:10:51 qfr: Do you want me to attempt to answer that? 17:10:57 Quadrescence: Please do 17:11:14 I am curious because I am quite impressed by the Lisp I've learned so far, it's so elegant 17:11:16 srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 17:11:17 ska` [~user@ppp-58-8-238-19.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 17:11:37 Might try Haskell again after that, which I know many Lispers have a grudge against 17:11:45 For all the syntactical sugar and monads etc 17:11:55 qfr: You might want to reconsider what you know. 17:12:12 Really? Are Lispers generally fond of Haskell? 17:12:21 adeht gave me quite a different impression 17:12:23 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:12:28 -!- drl_ [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:12:39 qfr: I think lispers will generally see Haskell as a different thing 17:12:48 Well, it is 17:12:58 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:13:01 Haskell is more in the ML family of languages, right? 17:13:04 qfr: I have seen little evidence of a grudge against Haskell by anyone. 17:13:06 qfr: I don't like Haskell for doing Real Work (tm) 17:13:22 Xach hah, I've seen plenty\ 17:13:46 Mostly from people who are used to coding imperatively mostly 17:14:09 -!- lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:14:18 But Haskell can make some things, like formally specifying a type, nice. I won't go on about the pros and cons, but haskell has its reason to exist, and I think most lispers will probably find themselves developing faster in lisp. 17:14:45 lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:14:53 When they see a language where you don't start out with stuff like a = b they're just flabbergasted 17:15:14 qfr: Are many of those people Lispers? 17:15:18 None 17:15:43 they reject Lisps, too, of course 17:16:07 You should hang around with a higher quality of people! 17:16:15 qfr: As for why lisp isn't well adopted. I'm sure everyone has their own theory. But foremost, most people are turned off by the parentheses so never learn any more about lisp than that it has "ugly" syntax. Another thing is that development environments are somewhat lacking, especially on Windows it seems [citation needed] (along with a good implementation). The good dev environment on Linux is emacs and slime, and lots of people don't want t 17:16:15 o both learning such. 17:16:49 Well, I'd prefer [] over () just for the sake of shifting on the US layout :p 17:16:51 qfr: Even after all of that, some people just don't really get the hang of What Lisp Is All About (tm) and continue coding in lisp as they would in Python. So they figure "eh might as well use python" 17:16:59 But then again I could simply rebind that, heh 17:18:01 qfr: Another reason might have been the demise of Lisp machines and such. Lisp machines were very expensive and so people bought cheap IBM clones, which supported ASM/C/C++. 17:18:04 -!- Twinkle [~anonymous@031-214-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl] has quit [Quit: Ik ga weg] 17:18:15 So those took popularity in corporations and whatever. 17:18:33 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 17:19:07 -!- ziarkaen_ [~ziarkaen@87.113.53.52] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:19:22 C++ and C are still among the three biggest, but there is Java, too 17:19:37 I wonder how far Java would have come without its syntactical similarity to C/C++ 17:19:51 The general consensus among lispers is that it really doesn't matter what language you use, just program, write libraries, etc etc [citation needed]; too bad more people don't use Lisp because it does wonders for us. 17:20:07 java would be nowhere with { and } 17:20:11 *without 17:20:35 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-pjrzqnvjtatemjun] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:20:45 Quadrescence: It doesn't matter what language you use? If it didn't matter we wouldn't be here, we would just use whatever is the most popular one 17:20:50 -!- pdo [~pdo@217.33.254.141] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:21:09 drdo: I'm saying a lisper won't care what Bill or Johnny is coding in. 17:21:14 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-24-4-147-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:17 If they don't want to use lisp, whatever, that's their problem. 17:21:21 Oh, right 17:21:44 I was considering changing fully to CL to see how far I get and if it could replace Ruby as my primary language for general stuff 17:22:31 Well, it does look like lisp is going mainstream anyway, all these languages popping up everywhere are more and more like lisp 17:22:50 One instance of CCL on Windows already uses 48 MiB of memory, I was worried about memory consumption because I develop stuff for some low end box with only 1 GiB of RAM 17:23:10 I didn't check how much of that was shared though 17:24:54 qfr: i'm from ruby too, trying to see if lisp fits my needs and perhaps use it to do my general programming also 17:24:59 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:25:01 Heh 17:25:01 "only" 1gb of ram? :) 17:25:03 qfr: I don't know about CCL, but Lisp ran on old pdp10s with less memory than your telephone has. Lisp can take a lot of memory if you have poor style (like constantly using consing functions and bla bla), but generally memory shouldn't be an issue 17:25:18 drl_ [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 17:25:43 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 17:25:44 All these junk applications written in C on Linux leak to 300 MB of RAM, "but C is very efficient and lean" 17:25:56 Quadrescence I'm not sure about how I should use it because I would have about 7-12 different small services, obviously not each one of them must run in a separate 50 MiB environment where no memory is shared, that would be devastating 17:26:05 Woud you actually use emacs somehow for that then? 17:26:47 To have different buffers the services write to then? 17:26:59 But they all use the same instance of the interpreter? 17:27:04 Someone else here might be able to answer that better than I can. I usually write programs where only one thing is running at a time. 17:27:36 Because I know that many Lispers are very attached to emacs, slime etc because it integrates so well 17:27:45 qfr: I was actually asking about that the other day 17:27:48 Heh 17:28:16 (the sharing part) 17:28:36 I do know that CL has plenty of support for multithreading and all that BS. I think there are even some erlang-style threading in packages. 17:29:13 Quadrescence: that BS is becoming each time more the Way To Go (TM) 17:29:24 gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 17:29:36 pmd: I don't mean BS negatively. :) I just mean "all that other stuff" 17:29:41 -!- oconnore [~eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:30:24 mheld [~mheld@c-75-69-89-109.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:56 I write "boring" programs that are usually mathematical or scientific in nature (unfortunately), so I usually have other concerns. 17:31:11 Hah, amazing, Quadrescence 17:31:36 ziarkaen_ [~ziarkaen@87.112.132.217] has joined #lisp 17:32:08 Threads need to become way cheaper to make 17:32:18 That's like the primary focus of programs when CS is being taught, but in reality they account for like less than 1% of the software which is developed :p 17:32:33 threads just need to die 17:32:38 Adamant why the hate? 17:32:55 Is threading in CL more dramatic than in, say, Python, Ruby, C++ etc? 17:32:57 qfr: because they suck shit for massively parallel systems 17:33:05 no, threading in general just sucks 17:33:22 Adamant: that's my point 17:33:42 Adamant: what's the alternative? separate processes comm/ with sockets? 17:33:46 actor/Erlang-style stuff for distributed systems and STM/HTM for local parallelism is pretty much the future 17:34:07 re: threading http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=majbJoD6fzo 17:34:36 Adamant: but that's on top of threads, right? it just hides it from the user 17:34:38 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-93-9-2.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:34:44 Processes are generally more expensive than threads, no? And what about shared memory? Usually I want everything to be fully shared 17:34:53 pmd: yes 17:34:55 beerTRUCKz [~beerTRUCK@ip174-68-69-137.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:18 Lisp is really on top of ASM, and is hiding it from the user 17:35:55 qfr: sharing everything leads to problems 17:36:15 Global Variables Are A Problem (sometimes) 17:36:38 global variables are appropriate if you're writing Quake in 1995 17:36:44 haha 17:36:45 Quadrescence: right. so if you told me "cpu's generally suck" i'd worry 17:37:01 they are not appropriate if you're doing a business app in 2010 almost ever 17:37:09 pmd: Well CPUs do generally suck, but that's another story 17:37:28 But usually I just need manual threading in the first place because the IO API I am using has no nice asynchronous/event stuff so I'm stuch doing blockign IO in threads while doing other blocking stuff in other threads etc 17:37:45 stuck*, too 17:37:58 fair enough 17:38:04 Global variables are not a problem. The problem are people using them. 17:38:26 problem is ... 17:38:30 knobo: no, they are a fucking problem. they're just appropriate for some uses at some point 17:38:36 s 17:38:40 :) 17:38:51 that doesn't mean they shouldn't be avoided most of the time unless you have a good reason 17:39:40 huge amounts of problems with parallelism and concurrency come down to oversharing 17:39:41 btw, what's the preferred GUI toolkit of Lispers? 17:39:42 milanj [~milanj_@109-92-114-178.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 17:39:51 don't say "the emacs API" btw 17:39:53 qfr: none 17:39:56 jdz [~jdz@87.4.39.132] has joined #lisp 17:39:56 ..... 17:40:10 qfr: CLIM 17:40:11 :)))) 17:40:32 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Listener.png 17:40:36 O_O 17:41:18 I'd really write my GUI in html 17:41:43 Haha 17:41:56 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 17:41:59 I was thinking about writing my website in CL, just to take the piss 17:42:05 basant [~basant@triband-mum-59.184.123.122.mtnl.net.in] has joined #lisp 17:42:07 but it's in Ruby now 17:42:09 sixpoint8 [sixpoint8@d-ip-129-15-78-81.cs.ou.edu] has joined #lisp 17:42:15 html/php/javascript are okay for guis, if you can avoid writing the html/php/js ;) 17:42:23 Eeew PHP 17:42:35 -!- basant [~basant@triband-mum-59.184.123.122.mtnl.net.in] has left #lisp 17:43:25 -!- sixpoint8 [sixpoint8@d-ip-129-15-78-81.cs.ou.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 17:44:01 *Xach* has a website in CL that paid for his ILC trip this year 17:44:06 So err can you run several Lisp programs in parallel using SBCL? 17:44:19 Xach: can I look at it? 17:44:19 I mean within one process 17:44:31 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 17:45:29 knobo: http://wigflip.com/ is it 17:46:16 Payed by google-ads? 17:46:34 qfr: of course you can.. check out bordeaux-threads for a portable thread compatibility layer 17:46:53 knobo: yes, and poster print sales from http://wigflip.com/automotivator/ 17:47:16 *adeht* looks for minion 17:47:16 nice 17:47:19 adeht what would be a convenient way of keeping track of all the different buffers though? 17:47:36 qfr: what buffers? are you talking about CL or elisp? 17:47:37 I was wondering if emacs would be useful for this 17:47:50 adeht I mean each service has its own stdout etc and I need to see those 17:48:12 currently I'm using separate processes with screen for that stuff 17:48:16 Which is very messy at times 17:48:30 It also consumes a ton of memory 17:48:34 you just have *standard-output*, etc. bound to different streams then 17:48:41 whoa 17:48:41 About 25-30 MiB of non shared memory for each process :[ 17:49:03 this graphviz is nice, i've just created a graph using the wizard's home data 17:49:07 but most of that is paged out I hope, let me check 17:49:09 xach: You should add a button to publish the motivator thing on facebook 17:49:33 qfr: you could have them all running in the same lisp image.. 17:49:38 And a link back so people can order it :) 17:49:41 knobo: I know, just need to find some time to do it. 17:49:41 adeht that's the idea yeah 17:49:57 ah.. there is 17:50:05 knobo: it doesn't work. 17:50:10 oh.. 17:50:21 Xach: you're the author of the motivador generator? I've saw it today 17:50:22 knobo: I use it to measure interest. There is a lot of interest. 17:50:42 paul0: There are several on the web, and I think mine is third most popular. 17:50:44 automotivator, http://wigflip.com/automotivator/ 17:50:48 ah 17:51:14 *Xach* couldn't have done it without the power of Lisp! 17:51:31 qfr: in all CL implementations that I know of, dynamic bindings to special variables are local to thread 17:51:50 Xach: a facebook link page would be awesome 17:52:01 perhaps, something to add it automatically to 4chan ;) 17:52:04 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:09 Hmm I don't see how to make htop show how much is paged, neither nswap or cswap were what I was looking for 17:54:03 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 18:00:41 -!- felideon [~felideon@173.221.53.122.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:06:52 gz` [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 18:07:04 homie` [~user@xdsl-78-35-181-145.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:07:13 adeht what would you use to take care of this? lots of small services which all have their own text output interfaces, some of them also require some text input from the administrator occasionally. It would be nice if I could use it like CLI programs being run in different screen sessions. And they should all use the same Lisp image in order to reduce the load the system. Doesn't this sound like something which you could use emacs for? 18:07:17 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@chello212186106204.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:07:37 Where different emacs buffers are associated with the SBCL programs? 18:07:52 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-141-94.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:08:00 I mean it would be great, then I could essentially stop dealing with screen sessions etc 18:08:20 And it would actually reduce the memory usage in comparison to what I am currently doing 18:08:25 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:08:37 Why is there a website named www.lisp4.facebook.com? Does facebook use lisp? 18:09:00 Nope, it's written in PHP afaik 18:09:06 qfr: screen discriminates based on process afaik?.. anyway, you could just create a swank server and connect to it using emacs/slime 18:09:07 And runs on Apache with nginx or something 18:09:22 *qfr* looks up swank 18:09:39 knobo: LISP is the name of some kind of networking protocol. 18:09:50 qfr: swank is part of slime 18:09:55 Ah, ok 18:09:56 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:09:56 LisP 18:10:11 -!- ska` [~user@ppp-58-8-238-19.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:10:16 Would be cool if they where using lisp though. 18:10:24 if I have a 2D array of dimension 10x10, what's the best way to print it to the screen as a box? 18:10:40 can i loop through it with format t "~{~{~}~}"? 18:10:59 osoleve: no. Only lists. 18:11:34 MindVirus [~mindvirus@unaffiliated/mindvirus] has joined #lisp 18:11:39 You can write a matrix printing routine, and if it has the right signature, call it with (format t "~/package:format-matrix/" matrix) 18:11:44 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.34.242.216] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:11:59 How are CL lists implemented at the opcode level really? Does it vary depending on optimisations and such? Are they sometimes arrays, sometimes linked lists, sometimes neither? 18:12:32 qfr: often they're a record of two slots, with cdr in first position and car in second position. 18:13:29 qfr: http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.cl-pro has a recent thread about interacting with a running lisp 18:14:02 qfr: but they may be implemented in a lot of different ways. cdr-coding involved making vectors of cars. You can also have the car and the cdr stored in different arrays. Or they can be implemented as car = (lambda (c) (funcall c (lambda (a d) a))) cdr = (lambda (c) (funcall c (lambda a d) d)) 18:14:28 with cons = (lambda (a d) (lambda (s) (funcall s a d))) 18:14:38 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.150.234] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:15:22 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:16:17 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.155.126] has joined #lisp 18:19:36 pjb so err for a string of length n the memory consumption must be enormous then, no? 18:19:41 -!- lukego [~lukegorri@adsl-62-167-162-227.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:19:58 one element which contains the actual data and one pointer which is 8 bytes on AMD64? 18:20:00 pjb: the last implementation is unlikely to appear in a non-toy lisp, isn't it ;) 18:20:10 qfr: strings are not lists 18:20:17 Oh? 18:20:28 qfr: read PCL 18:20:48 Oh right I do recall seeing string instead of list from type-of 18:21:04 There's no reason strings should not be lists. 18:21:22 MindVirus: of course there is.. 18:21:27 adeht: depends. The compiler might optimize lambda very hard. 18:21:31 adeht: Please elaborate. 18:21:40 MindVirus: in Common Lisp, strings are vectors 18:21:50 qfr: in the original lisp, strings were represented as lists of packed six-chars. 18:21:58 What's a vector in Lisp speak? 18:22:03 qfr: but since then, we added real vectors and arrays to lisp. 18:22:05 pjb heh, curious 18:22:17 I only know the term vector from mathematics and C++ 18:22:34 qfr: Well it's the same in Common Lisp. 18:22:42 ... a one-dimensional array. 18:22:51 Instead of a linked list, correct? 18:22:55 The same? The C++ vector has nothing to do the mathematics one :p 18:23:00 MindVirus: Yes. 18:23:02 *with, too 18:23:13 -!- ASau [~user@95-26-92-70.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:24:09 reb` but what is makes the difference between array and vector in this case then? 18:24:28 s/is // 18:24:29 A vector is a 1D array. There are multidimensional arrays. 18:24:31 Let's say some abstract object-oriented programming language had linked lists as a base type. Is it reasonable to inherit the linked list and define a vector from that? 18:24:49 pjb heh, well, you might argue that those are just arrays of arrays :p 18:24:55 lukego [~lukegorri@adsl-62-167-176-173.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 18:25:02 qfr: no. 18:25:43 MindVirus: Not usually, because the performance characteristics of linked lists are very different from those of arrays. 18:25:43 qfr: Try to read: #(#(1 2 3) #(1 2) #(1)) and: #2A((1 2 3) (1 2) (1)) 18:25:53 reb`: Fair enough. 18:27:07 MindVirus: It becomes a bit more acceptable if you replace "linked list" with "balanced tree", since a log factor for random access is often ok. 18:27:41 reb`: So, a balanced tree would work as a subclass of both linked list and vector. 18:27:41 rfg [~rfg@client-80-5-172-150.glw-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:59 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-59-2.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:28:24 MindVirus: no. 18:28:51 OK? 18:28:55 MindVirus: No, what I meant is that in come circumstances it may be ok to implement an array-like data structure using balanced trees .... 18:29:23 ... mostly when in the realm of functional algorithms. 18:29:26 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-113-169.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:30:11 MindVirus: what's the `first' and `rest' of balanced trees? you might tell me "the left and right hand-side of the [binary] tree". what if it's not binary? what if i was expecting an element of the tree as the result of `first'? etc... 18:30:15 -!- drl_ [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:30:16 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:30:38 -!- hlavaty [~user@95-88-27-48-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:31:00 ASau [~user@95-26-92-70.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 18:31:11 Which scripting language do Lispers generally dislike the least, by the way? 18:31:22 qfr: Lisp. 18:31:40 Which non-Lisp scripting language do Lispers generally dislike the least, by the way? 18:31:41 -!- Joreji [~thomas@85-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 259 seconds] 18:31:44 pmd: That's just a linked list. 18:31:52 Joreji [~thomas@85-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:32:01 qfr: possibly Ruby 18:32:04 Ryan___ [~Ryan@174-21-162-203.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:05 Hah 18:32:24 qfr: that would be my compromise language of choice 18:32:38 Yeah, Ruby is my current primary tool 18:32:47 ELS classes EMCAScript as a lisp dialect 18:32:55 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-92-114-178.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:33:00 it may be at some point, but it's not yet 18:33:03 well from the frontpage of their site anyway 18:33:09 Eich will turn it into one soon enough 18:33:25 ELS = ? 18:33:52 qfr: http://www.european-lisp-symposium.org/ 18:34:01 it was based on Scheme originally, but it had to be Javafied to meet the demands of the mid-1990's 18:34:05 So, could there theoretically be a base class for all multiple-element objects? 18:34:17 Urgh, theistic imagery! 18:34:37 qfr: I should link you to the Sistine Chapel 18:34:51 You should not! 18:35:10 Have you guys checked out clojure? It looks pretty neat 18:35:12 lol I never noticed the image 18:35:33 Guthur: it takes a special breed of annoyingly militant atheist 18:35:43 ziarkaen__ [~ziarkaen@87.112.130.40] has joined #lisp 18:35:46 Apropos Javascript, I don't really get node.js 18:35:53 -!- ziarkaen_ [~ziarkaen@87.112.132.217] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:36:03 Adamant: :)) 18:36:58 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:37:11 non-lisps are non-topic here.. as well as certain lisps 18:37:13 drdo: it's great for people who already know java 18:37:29 dlowe haha, what 18:37:31 e-user [~e-user@port-87-234-24-237.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:37:38 adeht: all Lisps are semi-on-topic here. CL is the only Lisp that's fully on topic. 18:37:41 milanj [~milanj_@178-223-147-197.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 18:37:51 so, i get an error, but it doesn't say the line where it happened 18:38:01 Adamant: that is wrong 18:38:01 *** - ASSOC: LIVING-ROOM is not a list 18:38:03 qfr, You can take comfort in the fact that what an angel looks like has no basis in christian religion, the first image was way later, so it could be anything really 18:38:05 Oh, I didn't know Clojure ran oin the JVM 18:38:09 Among other things 18:38:52 sea [~sea@205.244.150.217] has joined #lisp 18:39:23 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 18:39:36 -!- sea is now known as sea4ever 18:39:40 -!- sea4ever [~sea@205.244.150.217] has quit [Changing host] 18:39:40 sea4ever [~sea@unaffiliated/sea4ever] has joined #lisp 18:41:53 Guthur: if he's that upset about religious imagery, he needs to find a new civilization to join. whether or not you agree with it, every culture I've seen is extensively intertwined with the religion that it developed from or alongside, and everything you do while a member of that culture is influenced by it. including your word choice in English, for starters (KJV Bible) 18:43:50 Anyone know some up to date tutorials on weblocks 18:43:56 tali713 [~user@c-71-195-45-159.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:06 Guthur: Would like it as well 18:44:33 drdo, have you had little luck finding any? 18:44:56 There are some, but i didn't find them very nice 18:47:23 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:49:26 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 18:50:15 udzinari [~androirc@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 18:51:50 -!- udzinari [~androirc@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:53:04 udzinari [~androirc@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 18:53:39 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:54:41 Adamant: Mankind has made many mistakes, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't learn from them and correct them. Also, I am rather insulted by your remarks regarding "civilisation membership" and "cultural membership". I am very critical of concepts like ethnic and national identity and I seek to escape from people trying to put me in those boxes when it is convenient for me. I think that everybody has the right to decide for themselves what groups they identify wi 18:54:41 th and such choices should not be a reason against peaceful cooperative coexistence. 18:54:42 pnq [~nick@AC822480.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 18:55:52 Earnestly said. Let's talk about Lisp. 18:55:56 indeed 18:57:12 We shall be in Lisp boxes in #lisp, hehe 18:57:19 rme: How's 1.6 doing? Any interesting problems beta testing didn't shake out? 18:57:23 Can someone give me a practical use case for `#.' ? 18:57:30 made from parenthesis of course 18:58:40 <|3b|> Quadrescence: using named constants in CASE 18:58:42 Quadrescence: constructing case keys 18:58:59 practical enough for me! 18:59:06 Xach: So far, it's holding up pretty well. There were some serious ARM bugs, but everything else seems OK. 18:59:22 <|3b|> Quadrescence: you can also use it for evil things like #.(require ...) in quick hacks 18:59:24 Quadrescence: e.g., computation of objects that are read but not evaluated.. or #+#. trickery 18:59:31 -!- udzinari [~androirc@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:59:50 horze [~kim@c-740972d5.24-87-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:59:53 redline6561 [~redline@173.160.64.57] has joined #lisp 19:00:51 ARM bug-hunter ivan4th has been on the case. 19:01:05 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 19:02:47 actually using #. for case keys may be problematic if you're not making sure that the constant's value is known at that time 19:05:32 so e.g., (defconstant foo 42) (defun bar (x) (case x (#.foo 'bar))) may fail in some implementations 19:06:24 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #lisp 19:06:24 also, string literals 19:06:55 -!- abeaumont_ [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:07:01 adeht: isn't that more an issue with evaluating a "constant" at read-time? 19:07:13 Quadrescence: it is 19:07:19 I quote "constant" because the evaluator might not know it's even a constant yet. 19:07:38 Quadrescence: it should know that it's a constant, but may not know its value 19:07:51 it does on sbcl, but doesn't on ccl 19:09:54 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:09:54 Quadrescence: e.g., check out clhs entry for constantp, the paragraph about constant variables that must be recognized as such 19:10:10 -!- Kaek [~b@c-7ecbe253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:10:14 Kaek [~b@c-7ecbe253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:10:20 Ah, okay. 19:11:07 -!- az [~az@p4FE4FC49.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 19:11:11 francogrex [~user@109.130.74.7] has joined #lisp 19:12:05 antifuchs: yes, even in documentation places 19:12:44 (defun foo (x y z) #.(format nil "Your fancy doc goes here") ...) 19:12:58 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:13:25 -!- ziarkaen__ [~ziarkaen@87.112.130.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:14:24 i wouldn't like this 19:15:13 I can see practical reasons for doing that I think. :O 19:16:35 What do you guys think about having forms which might not do anything but are there to serve as documentation (and could possibly be used in the future)? For example, something like (functype foo (-> integer integer)), which might not actually do or mean anything, but functype might be used for something later. 19:16:48 Basically I'm asking what you guys think about metadata outside of comments. :) 19:16:55 Quadrescence: seems like a way to clutter things up 19:17:26 Any more than comments clutter? 19:17:49 sixpoint8 [sixpoint8@d-ip-129-15-78-81.cs.ou.edu] has joined #lisp 19:17:50 I've found, though, that whenever I feel like putting in a comment, I need to either a) extract some functions or b) put in a logging statement 19:18:21 comments have the advantage of being colored differently :) 19:18:26 ;) 19:18:35 Quadrescence: lisp already has ftype 19:18:55 adeht: I was just giving the first example that popped into my head 19:20:40 -!- sixpoint8 [sixpoint8@d-ip-129-15-78-81.cs.ou.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 19:21:04 Quadrescence: I think attila mentioned something about how he favors structured objects to docstrings (and maybe comments?), but didn't elaborate on it 19:21:11 -!- beerTRUCKz [~beerTRUCK@ip174-68-69-137.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:21:22 -!- mtk0 [~mtk@ool-182c8e6c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:21:47 -!- njan- [~james@freenode/staff/njan] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:22:29 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:25:11 ziarkaen__ [~ziarkaen@233.94.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:46 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:26:08 njan [~james@freenode/staff/njan] has joined #lisp 19:31:14 zomgbie [~jesus@212095007053.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 19:36:56 davazp [~user@3.Red-83-46-6.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:40:02 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.74.7] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:48:16 Someone invent earmuffs for types/classes 19:49:13 -!- charliekilo [~charlieki@70-89-224-81-BusName-panjde.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has left #lisp 19:49:16 there's the Dylan convention of using for class names 19:49:20 stanrifkin [~rifkin@pD954E018.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:50:37 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:50:42 -!- horze [~kim@c-740972d5.24-87-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: horze] 19:50:47 adeht: Did that really start in Dylan? 19:51:13 I've known about that convention, but didn't know it originated with (or was popularized by) Dylan. 19:51:32 Quadrescence: that it is the convention in dylan doesn't mean that dylan originated *or* popularized it... 19:51:58 personally I first encountered it in the context of Dylan 19:52:31 Xach: I know there isn't any implication. But bla bloo bla bla bloo bla bloo lisp is slow and is only good for AI 19:52:43 -!- rfg [~rfg@client-80-5-172-150.glw-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net] has quit [Quit: rfg] 19:57:08 *slyrus* forgot how intern works 19:57:19 magic! 19:58:01 or the other kind of intern, a student? 19:58:25 -!- billitch [~billitch@78.250.214.187] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:58:31 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:59 no, no, the magic kind 19:59:03 is this ill-advised: (defun foo (bar) (symbol-package (intern bar #.*package*))) 19:59:23 slyrus: what is the goal? 19:59:28 (I want bar to be interned in the package that foo belongs to, not whatever package the repl is in when I call foo) 20:00:02 as opposed to: (intern bar 'the-package-bar-belongs-to) 20:00:05 (intern bar (load-time-value *package*))? 20:00:26 (intern bar (load-time-value (find-package 'foo))) 20:00:36 erm, symbol-package 20:01:18 adeht: except that I probably don't want to do that in the defun foo form 20:01:24 stassats: OK, that seems to be what I want 20:01:37 I was a little surprised that wasn't the default behavior of intern 20:02:03 i'd be surprised if it were 20:02:28 -!- ziarkaen__ [~ziarkaen@233.94.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:06:35 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-54.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:07:11 s0ber_ [~s0ber@111-240-210-54.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:58 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-221-234.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:10:11 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 20:11:39 -!- njan [~james@freenode/staff/njan] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 20:12:38 njan [~james@freenode/staff/njan] has joined #lisp 20:13:13 -!- Joreji [~thomas@85-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:13:27 xan_ [~xan@220.241.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 20:14:22 Joreji [~thomas@85-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:14:55 ziarkaen__ [~ziarkaen@142.13.113.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:38 -!- murilasso [~murilasso@201.53.192.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:20:28 nmg [~nickga@dsl78-143-210-236.in-addr.fast.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:20:37 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 20:21:46 murilasso [~murilasso@201.53.192.190] has joined #lisp 20:24:22 hrm... Ok, I thought I had my problems solved, but now I'm confused again 20:24:37 http://paste.lisp.org/display/117895 20:27:05 -!- Phoodus [~foo@174-17-245-93.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:27:55 slyrus: hmm, that method lambda list looks really funky to me. 20:28:07 <|3b|> parens on last one look odd 20:28:24 I would have expected perhaps an error about having too many things in the eql form. 20:28:28 <|3b|> yeah 20:29:35 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 20:29:37 thanks xach 20:30:11 yes, the compiler catching my error would have been nice 20:30:46 slyrus: sbcl is so lax! 20:30:51 why the #. on (string (code-char 169))? what difference does that make? 20:30:51 qbomb [~qbomb@firewall.gibsonemc.com] has joined #lisp 20:30:54 clisp barfs on that. 20:30:59 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:31:18 koning_robot: none. 20:31:47 is that a snarky answer or a sincere one? :P 20:31:53 khisanth_ [~Khisanth@pool-96-250-31-12.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:00 koning_robot: I don't know why slyrus used it, but it is pointless to have. 20:32:06 koning_robot: maybe he can explain. 20:32:46 yeah slyrus, you got something to explain there buddy 20:33:53 <|3b|> you never know, someone might be using a lisp with fasl compatibility between versions where (code-char 169) returns different characters :) 20:33:54 ecl, ccl and clisp barf, sbcl, abcl and allegro don't. 20:34:30 no, I have no idea why I did that 20:34:56 dfox [~dfox@ip-213-220-225-182.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 20:35:42 so, is this the place to ask stuff about clbuild? or should I take that somewhere else? 20:36:11 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-7-249.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:36:40 -!- murilasso [~murilasso@201.53.192.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:36:55 -!- stanrifkin [~rifkin@pD954E018.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:36:59 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:37:03 <|3b|> thijso: this is a reasonable place, though i think most of the clbuild devs have moved to clbuild2 20:37:10 because maybe it would be a good idea to remove clbuild v1 stuff or at least point out that there's a version 2 out there 20:37:21 yeah, that's what I meant, |3b|... 20:37:34 (or did you mean there's a #clbuild2 channel?) 20:37:47 <|3b|> no, just the project 20:38:03 ah, ok. 20:38:18 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@212095007053.public.telering.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:38:26 murilasso [~murilasso@201.53.192.190] has joined #lisp 20:38:42 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 20:39:08 I did a quick google on clbuild and ended up on the old v1 pages and redownloaded that. Did the same at work today and somehow ended up on the v2 page and only then realised that there's a v2 that looks a lot more recent (and active) 20:39:54 And I like v2, but the docs on how to get started are a bit on the light side... 20:40:15 *|3b|* should try v2 at some point 20:41:15 for example, starting from scratch on ubuntu, it's not clear how to actually do a 'compile-implementation' for sbcl. After a few false starts it dawned on me I need to manually do a 'install-from-upstream sbcl' before I can do 'compile-implementation' 20:42:37 -!- redline6561 [~redline@173.160.64.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:43:15 *|3b|* suspects this might be a topic more suited for a mailing list or bug tracker if there is one... irc is good for getting help, less good for things that someone needs to remember to do something about later :) 20:43:34 DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has joined #lisp 20:43:51 |3b|: good point 20:46:36 So LISP can be compiled directly into machine code, right? 20:46:56 <|3b|> MindVirus: that is a common implementation strategy, yes 20:47:13 So then LISP is self-hosting, yes? 20:47:15 -!- e-user [~e-user@port-87-234-24-237.static.qsc.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:47:24 <|3b|> (depending on how you define 'directly'... many lisp compilers have intermediate stages as well) 20:47:33 <|3b|> that is common as well 20:47:40 Directly means no intermediate stages. 20:47:58 My question is: how is this possible if LISP is weakly typed? 20:48:13 MindVirus: You mean dynamically typed? 20:48:18 sellout: Yeah. 20:48:18 C is weakly typed. 20:48:20 My bad. 20:48:42 <|3b|> usually it stores type information with objects, same as any other language with runtime typing 20:48:50 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 20:49:07 But that's runtime. 20:49:09 <|3b|> or else does type inference when possible, and puts the type info into the code instead 20:49:17 <|3b|> so? 20:49:24 As in, not compiled. 20:49:31 <|3b|> no 20:49:36 MindVirus: You might want to reduce your preconceptions if you want to understand. 20:49:37 <|3b|> completely orthogonal 20:49:39 MindVirus: They're two different things. 20:49:43 I'm working on it. 20:49:47 That's why I'm asking questions. 20:49:59 <|3b|> also 'machine code' doesn't imply 'efficient' or anything 20:49:59 -!- khisanth_ is now known as Khisanth 20:50:19 MindVirus: You're not asking a question if you write "But that's runtime. As in, not compiled." 20:50:58 Xach: I intended for you to either say that statement is correct or say why it's not. 20:51:15 MindVirus: Ah, like "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?" 20:51:38 "No" is an honest answer to that question. 20:51:53 Because I have never stopped beating my wife. 20:52:01 I am not interested in these semantic quibbles. 20:52:11 -!- Joreji [~thomas@85-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:52:14 <|3b|> so you aren't interested in actually understanding the subject? 20:52:22 Oh goodness. 20:52:35 I don't know how you got that from what I said. 20:52:45 All I said was that my statements were to be verified or proven wrong. 20:52:59 <|3b|> or proven meaningless? 20:53:02 Right! 20:53:16 I'm just trying to grasp this whole thing. Please bear with me. 20:53:24 MindVirus: A good book on the topic is Lisp in Small Pieces. 20:53:36 Xach: I like the title a lot. 20:53:48 MindVirus: It shows how to interpret Lisp naively, and quickly, and how to compile Lisp. 20:54:11 Xach: What is more interesting to me is how LISP compiles directly to assembly. 20:54:34 MindVirus: it's not clear what you mean by "directly" 20:54:55 adeht: Such that no intermediate language is required. 20:55:14 <|3b|> you might also look at http://scheme2006.cs.uchicago.edu/11-ghuloum.pdf (i think that is the one) 20:55:19 Thus LISP is automatically self-hosting if the compiler is written in LISP. 20:55:50 <|3b|> MindVirus: why do you reject intermediate representations? 20:55:52 MindVirus: self-hosting has nothing to do with directness 20:55:56 <|3b|> they can be implemented in lisp as well 20:56:16 I don't; I'm just interested in something else. 20:56:24 adeht: Yes, I understand that intuitively. 20:56:47 adeht: So, it is possible to compile LISP directly into assembly? 20:56:50 I ask because C is ugly. 20:57:47 <|3b|> that is a silly reason 20:57:56 MindVirus: can you give an example of a "direct" compiler? 20:57:57 MindVirus: not sure what makes an indirect compiler, but yes, it's possible to compile lisp to machine code. 20:58:11 adeht: GCC. 20:58:23 pkhuong: One that requires no intermediate language. 20:58:28 MindVirus: no, GCC has at least one intermediate representation 20:58:37 MindVirus: it goes through gas and a boatload of intermediate languages! 20:58:42 <|3b|> so if GCC had a lisp frontend it would qualify? 20:58:55 Clang? 20:59:04 when i use C-c C-k in SLIME to compile/load file, some definitions (like defgenerics) don't get reloaded.. is there a way to force that? 20:59:27 MindVirus: clang is a frontend, its output is an intermediate representation 20:59:33 <|3b|> yan_: are you sure you aren't just misunderstanding what side effects reloading them should have? 20:59:42 That is so remarkably interesting. 20:59:56 |3b|: i might be, but what i'd like to happen is the file get loaded as if i had a fresh sbcl instance 21:00:04 What is the intended purpose of this intermediate representation? 21:00:16 MindVirus: it's usually more convenient to manipulate, e.g. optimize 21:00:25 adeht: Aha. 21:00:42 <|3b|> yan_: that is hard to do in general, some combination of uninterning and deleting packages might help, but usually it is easier to just restart the lisp 21:01:10 MindVirus: it can also be made target-independent, store interesting information for debugging/checking purposes 21:01:13 MindVirus: etc. 21:01:33 So LISP compilers generally use intermediate code. 21:01:35 hhmm... paste.lisp.org doesn't go here automatically? 21:01:44 and helps exploit a shared infrastructure between the front and back end. 21:01:45 <|3b|> MindVirus: i'd expect any sane compier to 21:01:51 MindVirus: compilers in general tend to use an interemediate representation.. 21:01:59 anyway, http://paste.lisp.org/+2IYY 21:02:03 |3b|: That is something I've been waiting to hear. 21:02:18 MindVirus: do you have a CL implementation available? 21:02:19 anyone know why this happens? 21:02:28 Xach: No. 21:03:12 MindVirus: that might be a good first step toward understanding how a lisp can work. 21:03:23 I know the solution (fire up sbcl manually and there do a (load '...quicklisp.lisp') 21:03:31 MindVirus: It's interesting to use the built-in function DISASSEMBLE to see to what machine code your functions compile. 21:03:34 at least at work it was something like that... 21:04:53 thijso: possibly a bug in clbuild2 to report somewhere. 21:06:01 -!- milanj [~milanj_@178-223-147-197.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:06:05 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:07:00 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 21:08:38 -!- murilasso [~murilasso@201.53.192.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:09:10 milanj [~milanj_@178-223-147-197.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 21:09:44 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.56.143.60] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:10:15 murilasso [~murilasso@201.53.192.190] has joined #lisp 21:11:01 -!- pnq [~nick@AC822480.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:11:24 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:12:36 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:12:39 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:28 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-164-218.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:15:06 ziarkaen_ [~ziarkaen@87.114.0.172] has joined #lisp 21:15:59 tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:17:06 -!- ziarkaen__ [~ziarkaen@142.13.113.87.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:17:39 yayyy i did it! 21:17:57 i wrote a function that prints my 2D array as a 2D array! 21:17:58 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-250-31-12.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:18:13 *osoleve* pats self on back 21:20:50 osoleve: share? 21:21:05 udzinari [~androirc@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 21:21:53 Xach: http://paste.lisp.org/display/117899 21:23:05 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:23:40 osoleve: instead of (loop for i from 0 to (1- foo) ...) you can use (loop for i below foo ...) 21:24:09 Xach: ooh, thanks 21:24:13 osoleve: also consider (destructuring-bind (rows columns) (array-dimensions board) ...) 21:24:21 rvirding [~chatzilla@h137n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:24:21 (i) you can use BELOW instead of TO (1- ...) (ii) you can use DOTIMES instead of LOOP here (iii) you can use ARRAY-DIMENSION to get a particular dimension (iv) if you don't need ~& (fresh-line), better use ~% (terpri) (v) note a trailing space is printed 21:24:35 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.155.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:24:48 also what xach said :) 21:24:58 I think I actually wrote a similar n-dimensional thingy at some point.. lemme see.. 21:26:04 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 21:26:19 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.68.39] has joined #lisp 21:26:26 -!- tali713 [~user@c-71-195-45-159.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has left #lisp 21:26:59 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:27:28 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:27:28 thanks for the input :) 21:27:38 osoleve: another thing, it's usually a good idea to take a stream parameter, possibly optional or keyword 21:27:47 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925384990.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:28:37 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:28:41 pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925384990.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:28:51 adeht: why's that? 21:29:37 a do-array macro for any number of dimensions: http://paste.lisp.org/display/117900 21:30:30 Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-250-31-134.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:31 osoleve: convenience 21:31:06 koning_robot: to "shut up" the compiler you should use (declare (ignorable ...)) 21:31:23 -!- ziarkaen_ [~ziarkaen@87.114.0.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:31:25 -!- mheld [~mheld@c-75-69-89-109.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: mheld] 21:31:50 koning_robot: also it's weird that you capture those names 21:34:10 adeht: hm, I think that's a mistake 21:35:08 apparently I also messed up the subscript order 21:35:20 I'd also not use a &rest list (or any list) for subscripts, to reduce consing 21:35:32 that's what I get for testing with square matrices 21:35:41 (do-array ((i j) array) ...) 21:36:04 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: mstevens] 21:36:46 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:37:04 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:37:05 perhaps with a symbol-macro for "current element" 21:37:06 -!- MindVirus [~mindvirus@unaffiliated/mindvirus] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:39:36 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-169-81-108.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:41 churib2 [~tg@dslb-088-071-158-166.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:49 MindVirus [~mindvirus@unaffiliated/mindvirus] has joined #lisp 21:41:11 -!- sellout [~greg@212.3.9.50] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:41:27 s0ber_ [~s0ber@111-240-210-54.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:39 sellout [~greg@212.3.9.50] has joined #lisp 21:42:15 -!- MindVirus [~mindvirus@unaffiliated/mindvirus] has quit [Client Quit] 21:42:38 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-35-23.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:43:43 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-210-54.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:44:01 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 21:44:21 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host250-185-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:44:38 -!- udzinari [~androirc@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:46:05 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 21:46:59 -!- jdz [~jdz@87.4.39.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:48:01 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:48:18 is it possible to create 'filters' for streams? i.e. can i do something like: (with-zlib-stream (s) (format s "hello")) and have everything piped to s be zlib-compressed? 21:48:51 khisanth_ [~Khisanth@pool-96-250-28-63.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:42 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 21:49:57 <|3b|> yan_: yes, look at gray-streams for a common extension to allow that sort of thing (and trivial-gray-streams as a portability layer on top of the implementation specific stuff) 21:49:58 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-250-31-134.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:50:04 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:50:32 -!- churib2 [~tg@dslb-088-071-158-166.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 21:50:55 -!- qbomb [~qbomb@firewall.gibsonemc.com] has left #lisp 21:52:17 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-111-155.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 21:53:29 yan: there's something like that in cl-quasiquote-pdf code 21:53:36 *cl-quasi-quote-pdf 21:54:40 though when I borrowed it a year ago or so I had to modify it a bit (but maybe that has nothing to do with the functionality you're looking for) 21:55:30 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-114-224.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:52 -!- khisanth_ [~Khisanth@pool-96-250-28-63.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:59:24 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-111-155.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:59:40 jdz [~jdz@host123-70-dynamic.54-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 22:02:36 bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.164.182] has joined #lisp 22:06:32 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-174.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 22:09:34 drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 22:10:04 also, there will happen a moon eclipse tonight 22:10:08 visible in all americas 22:10:19 (forgot to mention that) 22:10:34 you also forgot that it's off-topic 22:10:41 yup, totally 22:10:52 -!- BrianRice [~water@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:11:31 -!- xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-227-124.lns20.mel6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:13:46 -!- ymasory [~ymasory@grok.psych.upenn.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:15:10 antoni [~user@159.Red-88-8-194.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:18:52 khisanth_ [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-6-202.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:48 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 22:23:20 xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-227-124.lns20.mel6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:23:32 paul0: (defun moon-eclispe-p (date) ...) (moon-eclispe-p (encode-universal-date 0 0 22 20 12 2010 -0700)) --> T 22:23:59 paul0: notice, there's an error. Find it! 22:24:18 pnq [~nick@AC82C78E.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 22:24:36 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:25:14 -!- sellout [~greg@212.3.9.50] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:25:29 sellout [~greg@212.3.9.50] has joined #lisp 22:27:01 -!- khisanth_ [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-6-202.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:28:48 pjb: haha, I'm still learning lisp :) 22:29:40 -!- vasile_ [~vasile@john-marshall.sflc.info] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:30:12 -!- vasile [~vasile@john-marshall.sflc.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:30:29 who isn't? 22:30:49 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925384990.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:31:54 -!- nmg [~nickga@dsl78-143-210-236.in-addr.fast.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:32:08 I'm not, I can already speak with a massive lisp! 22:32:12 Lithp! 22:32:22 ha-ha, funny joke! 22:33:10 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-135-200-251.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 22:33:34 funny-p says nil 22:34:03 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZAoMv_QnAU 22:34:59 Like the computer says no 22:36:08 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 22:36:34 -!- spcshpopr8r [~user@c-71-231-165-31.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:36:53 spcshpopr8r [~user@c-71-231-165-31.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:27 -!- Ryan___ [~Ryan@174-21-162-203.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:38:20 Tabmow [terry@freenode/staff/tabmow] has joined #lisp 22:39:25 What is it with the background laughter? 22:39:35 Who came up with that horrible idea? 22:40:29 mheld [~mheld@173-144-127-116.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 22:40:52 -!- Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-17-38.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:40:53 -!- Tabmow [terry@freenode/staff/tabmow] has left #lisp 22:40:56 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:41:46 -!- antoni [~user@159.Red-88-8-194.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:41:54 GrayMagiker [~steve@c-174-56-26-27.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:23 -!- paul0 [~paulogeye@187.112.250.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:43:29 drdo: it must have been invented in the 1950's. American people were already too dumb to know when to laught. 22:43:46 hey guys, I've some weird behaviour with clsql: http://paste.awesom.eu/hWJ (only the last form gives the right result), any idea ? 22:45:36 "The Hank McCune Show". The canned laughter came from a box invented by Charley Douglass 22:46:00 -!- milanj [~milanj_@178-223-147-197.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:46:09 pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925256071.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:46:29 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:37 pjb: I wonder what the purpose of it is 22:46:54 Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-4-48.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:23 As I said, most people are too dumb to know when to laught. 22:48:20 It seems recent shows are droping the thing. The Office or My Name is Earl don't have it. 22:48:41 Well, having canned laughter won't make them it any more funny anyone if they didn't get the joke 22:48:46 *for anyone 22:49:18 in the case of the office it would be strange to have canned laughter on a show that isn't funny 22:50:37 pnq: I invite you to reconsider this statement. This one show really makes me ROFL a couple of times each episode. 22:53:00 <|3b|> pjb: probably more the other way around... too dumb to resist the instinct to conform to the group, so they actually appreciate the show more with the (fake) group reaction cues 22:53:28 Perhaps. 22:53:51 <|3b|> also, the 'live studio audience' thing that used to be popular probably had an influence as well 22:54:13 *|3b|* doesn't know what any of this has to do with lisp though :) 22:54:17 pjb: "funny" is subjective and I wasn't too serious with that statement 22:54:24 I conjecture the rationale was so a person won't feel discomfort laughing alone.. it's not cinema we're talking about 22:54:35 -!- mheld [~mheld@173-144-127-116.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:54:42 -!- smka [~s@unaffiliated/stefanot] has quit [] 22:54:53 *Guthur* hears the distant plod of the topic police 22:55:33 adeht: That could make sense, but they seem to have full on laughter all the time, no one laughs like that 22:56:12 mentally challenged people laugh like that 22:59:15 Tabmow [terry@freenode/staff/tabmow] has joined #lisp 22:59:29 sm` [~s@78.157.1.162] has joined #lisp 23:00:32 smka [~s@78.157.1.162] has joined #lisp 23:01:12 -!- Tabmow [terry@freenode/staff/tabmow] has left #lisp 23:03:47 -!- sm` [~s@78.157.1.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:04:09 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-135-200-251.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:04:11 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:07:21 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 23:10:09 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:10:34 hmm.. anyone ever tried to grab an element (any element) from a html document using closure-html and plexippus-xpath? 23:10:42 I keep getting a NODE EMPTY 23:11:11 or, actually: # 23:11:22 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:12:03 Well, it looks like cmucl is runnin on solaris/x86 ok. At least it compiles itself and runs maxima's testsuite without problems. 23:12:10 Er, running, even. 23:12:18 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 23:12:25 and when I just dump the stuff that closure-html:parse produces it does look like it parsed the html file correctly 23:13:10 shouldn't I just be able to do something like: (xpath:evaluate "//h1" parsed-page) 23:13:19 ? 23:15:06 -!- cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:16:28 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:18:19 rdd` [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 23:18:56 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 23:19:07 udzinari [~androirc@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 23:19:14 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-134-5-51.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 23:20:26 Tabmow [terry@freenode/staff/tabmow] has joined #lisp 23:21:20 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:21:25 thijso: my guess is that you need xpath:with-namespaces 23:21:26 -!- rdd` is now known as rdd 23:21:36 DocOnDev [~doc@cpe-76-188-181-37.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:21:37 (xpath:with-namespaces (("foo" "http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml")) (xpath:evaluate "//foo:label" (chtml:parse (drakma:http-request "http://www.google.com/") (stp:make-builder)))) wfm 23:22:32 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Client Quit] 23:23:51 -!- udzinari [~androirc@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:23:56 adeht: hhmmm... thanks, I think you might be right. I'll try that 23:23:58 -!- muhdik [~IceChat7@parkmobile-usa.oneringnetworks.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:24:03 -!- muhdik_ [~IceChat7@parkmobile-usa.oneringnetworks.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:25:09 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 23:25:37 -!- jdz [~jdz@host123-70-dynamic.54-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:25:43 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:27:11 adeht: yep, that works! thanks... 23:27:12 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 23:28:27 rfg [~rfg@host81-102-110-61.not-set-yet.ntli.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:25 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.164.182] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:33:46 pavelludiq [57f63ac1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 23:35:31 -!- plage [~user@113.161.65.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:38:37 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 23:38:47 -!- Tabmow [terry@freenode/staff/tabmow] has left #lisp 23:40:11 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925256071.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:40:32 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 23:40:32 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 23:40:32 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 23:44:50 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-213-220-225-182.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:46:13 rdd` [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 23:46:21 -!- xan_ [~xan@220.241.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:46:49 argiopeweb [~elliot@adsl-243-31-234.dab.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:46:57 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:48:08 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:49:13 mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:59 -!- davazp [~user@3.Red-83-46-6.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:50:57 -!- sluggo [~chris@net-216-37-86-189.in-addr.worldspice.net] has quit [Quit: bbl] 23:51:16 -!- Kovensky [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:51:18 kenjin [~kenjin@211.177.89.126] has joined #lisp 23:51:26 .. 23:51:44 -!- kenjin is now known as Guest51088 23:52:40 Kovensky [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has joined #lisp 23:52:43 xan_ [~xan@220.241.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 23:53:12 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 23:54:24 Ryan_ [~Ryan@12.107.119.130] has joined #lisp 23:54:27 -!- rdd` is now known as rdd 23:55:16 vasile [~vasile@ool-4570abc6.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:17 vasile_ [~vasile@ool-4570abc6.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:47 -!- Guest51088 [~kenjin@211.177.89.126] has quit [Client Quit] 23:56:00 kenjin_ [~kenjin@211.177.89.126] has joined #lisp 23:56:52 pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925384990.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:57:08 paul0 [~paulogeye@189.114.206.39.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 23:57:33 -!- kenjin_ [~kenjin@211.177.89.126] has quit [Client Quit] 23:57:48 kenjin_ [~kenjin@211.177.89.126] has joined #lisp 23:58:51 -!- kenjin_ [~kenjin@211.177.89.126] has quit [Client Quit] 23:59:03 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@211.177.89.126] has joined #lisp